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To: draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
Cc: NETCONF <netconf@ietf.org>
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Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2017 10:46:26 +0200
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Subject: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages: YANG validation issues
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Dear authors,

See http://www.claise.be/IETFYANGPageCompilation.html
Note: you can download the extracted YANG module on the web page, to 
make sure the line # are similar

Regarding the pyang error:

    ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:220: error: the
    'yang-data' extension must have exactly one child that is a container
    ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237: error: the
    'yang-data' extension must have exactly one child that is a container

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8040#section-8

    It MUST contain data definition statements
    that result in exactly one container data node definition.

Note that a similar issue (choice with yang-data) was discussed on the 
NETCONF mailing list.
See the "yang-data cannot encode a choice statement?" email thread.

For the yumadum-pro errors, I'll let Andy investigate:

    Error: Got 'anydata', Expected: right brace
    ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:227.5: error(245): wrong
    token type

    Error: Got 'semicolon', Expected: body statement
    ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:232.25: error(245): wrong
    token type

    Error: Extra input after end of module starting on line 237
    ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237.3: error(281): extra node

    ***
    *** 3 Errors, 0 Warnings


Regards, B.

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<html>
  <head>

    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
  </head>
  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    Dear authors,<br>
    <br>
    See <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.claise.be/IETFYANGPageCompilation.html">http://www.claise.be/IETFYANGPageCompilation.html</a><br>
    Note: you can download the extracted YANG module on the web page, to
    make sure the line # are similar<br>
    <br>
    Regarding the pyang error:<br>
    <blockquote><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:220">ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:220</a>: error:
      the 'yang-data' extension must have exactly one child that is a
      container<br>
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237">ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237</a>: error: the
      'yang-data' extension must have exactly one child that is a
      container<br>
    </blockquote>
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8040#section-8">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8040#section-8</a><br>
    <blockquote>
      <pre class="newpage">It MUST contain data definition statements
that result in exactly one container data node definition.

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    Note that a similar issue (choice with yang-data) was discussed on
    the NETCONF mailing list.<br>
    See the "yang-data cannot encode a choice statement?" email thread.<br>
    <br>
    For the yumadum-pro errors, I'll let Andy investigate:<br>
    <blockquote>Error: Got 'anydata', Expected: right brace<br>
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:227.5">ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:227.5</a>: error(245):
      wrong token type<br>
      <br>
      Error: Got 'semicolon', Expected: body statement<br>
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:232.25">ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:232.25</a>: error(245):
      wrong token type<br>
      <br>
      Error: Extra input after end of module starting on line 237<br>
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237.3">ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237.3</a>: error(281):
      extra node<br>
      <br>
      *** <br>
      *** 3 Errors, 0 Warnings</blockquote>
    <br>
    Regards, B.<br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------359E9BA0D6904870CB955F95--


From nobody Mon Oct  2 10:44:58 2017
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Thread-Topic: early code point allocation for zerotouch DHCP options
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Subject: [Netconf] early code point allocation for zerotouch DHCP options
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From nobody Mon Oct  2 11:58:16 2017
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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2017 11:58:08 -0700
Message-ID: <CABCOCHS6drdnc-yCV2YUthJMSxr+RXWC6QZnRyowyXv+u_qRTw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
Cc: draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org,  NETCONF <netconf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages: YANG validation issues
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On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 1:46 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:

> Dear authors,
>
> See http://www.claise.be/IETFYANGPageCompilation.html
> Note: you can download the extracted YANG module on the web page, to make
> sure the line # are similar
>
> Regarding the pyang error:
>
> ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:220: error: the 'yang-data'
> extension must have exactly one child that is a container
> ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237: error: the 'yang-data'
> extension must have exactly one child that is a container
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8040#section-8
>
> It MUST contain data definition statements
> that result in exactly one container data node definition.
>
>
> Note that a similar issue (choice with yang-data) was discussed on the
> NETCONF mailing list.
> See the "yang-data cannot encode a choice statement?" email thread.
>
> For the yumadum-pro errors, I'll let Andy investigate:
>
> Error: Got 'anydata', Expected: right brace
> ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:227.5: error(245): wrong token
> type
>
> Error: Got 'semicolon', Expected: body statement
> ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:232.25: error(245): wrong
> token type
>
> Error: Extra input after end of module starting on line 237
> ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237.3: error(281): extra node
>
> ***
> *** 3 Errors, 0 Warnings
>
>
>

The error handled code needs to be fixed so it is more clear that it is
reporting the same error:

 /* Message to a receiver containing one notification.*/
  rc:yang-data message {
    container message-header {
      description
        "delineates header info from content for easy parsing.";
      uses notification-header;
      uses message-header;
    }
    anydata notification-contents {
      description
        "Non-header info of what actually got sent to receiver.  This
        includes after any content based security filtering.  Need to
        determine if/how it is viable not to include tag encapsulation
        for this object.";
    }
  }

IMO the entire special-case handling of yang-data should be redone.
Comments on example above pushing yang-data past its intended usage:

1) The "message" parameter does not get used anywhere, ant it gives
    people the impression they can declare duplicate siblings in the same
namespace

     rc:yang-data foo {
       container X;
     }

     rc:yang-data bar {
       container X;
     }

This is actually invalid because the assigned XML namespace is the same for
both /X nodes.

2) Using anydata as the notification contents hides the schema for the real
notification.
    How does a client know which 'real' schema to apply to parse each
specific event type?




> Regards, B.
>


Andy

--94eb2c1a6664a36c57055a94f4b8
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 1:46 AM, Benoit Claise <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
 =20

   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    Dear authors,<br>
    <br>
    See <a class=3D"gmail-m_4158496049046226664moz-txt-link-freetext" href=
=3D"http://www.claise.be/IETFYANGPageCompilation.html" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tp://www.claise.be/<wbr>IETFYANGPageCompilation.html</a><br>
    Note: you can download the extracted YANG module on the web page, to
    make sure the line # are similar<br>
    <br>
    Regarding the pyang error:<br>
    <blockquote><a class=3D"gmail-m_4158496049046226664moz-txt-link-abbrevi=
ated" href=3D"mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:220" target=
=3D"_blank">ietf-notification-messages@<wbr>2017-09-28.yang:220</a>: error:
      the &#39;yang-data&#39; extension must have exactly one child that is=
 a
      container<br>
      <a class=3D"gmail-m_4158496049046226664moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=
=3D"mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237" target=3D"_blank=
">ietf-notification-messages@<wbr>2017-09-28.yang:237</a>: error: the
      &#39;yang-data&#39; extension must have exactly one child that is a
      container<br>
    </blockquote>
    <a class=3D"gmail-m_4158496049046226664moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"h=
ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8040#section-8" target=3D"_blank">https://too=
ls.ietf.org/html/<wbr>rfc8040#section-8</a><br>
    <blockquote>
      <pre class=3D"gmail-m_4158496049046226664newpage">It MUST contain dat=
a definition statements
that result in exactly one container data node definition.

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    Note that a similar issue (choice with yang-data) was discussed on
    the NETCONF mailing list.<br>
    See the &quot;yang-data cannot encode a choice statement?&quot; email t=
hread.<br>
    <br>
    For the yumadum-pro errors, I&#39;ll let Andy investigate:<br>
    <blockquote>Error: Got &#39;anydata&#39;, Expected: right brace<br>
      <a class=3D"gmail-m_4158496049046226664moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=
=3D"mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:227.5" target=3D"_bla=
nk">ietf-notification-messages@<wbr>2017-09-28.yang:227.5</a>: error(245):
      wrong token type<br>
      <br>
      Error: Got &#39;semicolon&#39;, Expected: body statement<br>
      <a class=3D"gmail-m_4158496049046226664moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=
=3D"mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:232.25" target=3D"_bl=
ank">ietf-notification-messages@<wbr>2017-09-28.yang:232.25</a>: error(245)=
:
      wrong token type<br>
      <br>
      Error: Extra input after end of module starting on line 237<br>
      <a class=3D"gmail-m_4158496049046226664moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=
=3D"mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237.3" target=3D"_bla=
nk">ietf-notification-messages@<wbr>2017-09-28.yang:237.3</a>: error(281):
      extra node<br>
      <br>
      *** <br>
      *** 3 Errors, 0 Warnings</blockquote>
    <br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>The error han=
dled code needs to be fixed so it is more clear that it is reporting the sa=
me error:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0/* Message to a receiver containin=
g one notification.*/</div><div>=C2=A0 rc:yang-data message {</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 container message-header {</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 descri=
ption</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;delineates header info fr=
om content for easy parsing.&quot;;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 uses not=
ification-header;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 uses message-header;</div>=
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 anydata notification-contents =
{</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 description</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 &quot;Non-header info of what actually got sent to receiver.=C2=A0 =
This</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 includes after any content based=
 security filtering.=C2=A0 Need to</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 de=
termine if/how it is viable not to include tag encapsulation</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 for this object.&quot;;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<=
/div><div>=C2=A0 }</div><div><br></div><div>IMO the entire special-case han=
dling of yang-data should be redone.</div><div>Comments on example above pu=
shing yang-data past its intended usage:</div><div><br></div><div>1) The &q=
uot;message&quot; parameter does not get used anywhere, ant it gives</div><=
div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 people the impression they can declare duplicate siblings=
 in the same namespace</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0rc:yang=
-data foo {</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0container X;</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</div><div><br></div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0rc:yan=
g-data bar {</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0container X;</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</div></div><div><br></div><div>This is actually inval=
id because the assigned XML namespace is the same for both /X nodes.</div><=
div><br></div><div>2) Using anydata as the notification contents hides the =
schema for the real notification.</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 How does a client=
 know which &#39;real&#39; schema to apply to parse each specific event typ=
e?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    Regards, B.<br>
  </div>

</blockquote></div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_extra">Andy</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div></div>

--94eb2c1a6664a36c57055a94f4b8--


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>, "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com>
CC: "draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org>, NETCONF <netconf@ietf.org>
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--_000_a41d36254b2a4c52af4408535988942fXCHRTP013ciscocom_--


From nobody Tue Oct  3 01:14:53 2017
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Subject: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications-05.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : NETCONF Support for Event Notifications
        Authors         : Alberto Gonzalez Prieto
                          Alexander Clemm
                          Eric Voit
                          Einar Nilsen-Nygaard
                          Ambika Prasad Tripathy
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications-05.txt
	Pages           : 27
	Date            : 2017-10-03

Abstract:
   This document defines how to transport network subscriptions and
   event messages on top of the Network Configuration protocol
   (NETCONF).  This includes the full set of RPCs, subscription state
   changes, and subscribed content needing asynchronous delivery.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications-05
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications-05

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications-05


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
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From nobody Tue Oct  3 03:53:10 2017
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To: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>, netconf <netconf@ietf.org>
References: <AA781EFC-A7B5-490B-BF85-DE4FA3FDE26F@gmail.com>
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] WG adoption of NETCONF NDMA draft
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Support. Much needed work.

Benoit (individual contributor).
> The NETCONF NDMA draft was presented an discussed in IETF 99 in 
> Prague. The authors agreed to provide an update, which they did with 
> -01 version of the draft. The authors believe the document is ready 
> for WG adoption.
>
> This starts a two week call to adopt NETCONF NDMA draft as a WG 
> document. Since the focus of the draft is NDMA compliance, it falls 
> within the charter of the WG.
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01
>
> Please indicate whether you think this draft should be adopted as a WG 
> item. If you have objections to it being adopted, please state your 
> reasons by responding on this thread.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Mahesh Jethanandani
> mjethanandani@gmail.com <mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
      charset=windows-1252">
  </head>
  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Support. Much needed work.<br>
      <br>
      Benoit (individual contributor). </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:AA781EFC-A7B5-490B-BF85-DE4FA3FDE26F@gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=windows-1252">
      The NETCONF NDMA draft was presented an discussed in IETF 99 in
      Prague. The authors agreed to provide an update, which they did
      with -01 version of the draft. The authors believe the document is
      ready for WG adoption.
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">This starts a two week call to adopt NETCONF NDMA
        draft as a WG document. Since the focus of the draft is NDMA
        compliance, it falls within the charter of the WG.
        <div class=""><br class="">
        </div>
        <div class=""><a
            href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01"
            class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01</a><br
            class="">
          <div class=""><br class="">
          </div>
          <div class="">Please indicate whether you think this draft
            should be adopted as a WG item. If you have objections to it
            being adopted, please state your reasons by responding on
            this thread.<br class="">
            <div class=""><br class="">
            </div>
            <div class="">Thanks.</div>
            <div class=""><br class="">
              <div class="">
                <div class="">Mahesh Jethanandani</div>
                <div class=""><a href="mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com"
                    class="" moz-do-not-send="true">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a></div>
                <div class=""><br class="">
                </div>
                <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
              </div>
              <br class="">
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
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--------------FB7956AC1EC354C987DF1922--


From nobody Tue Oct  3 07:21:24 2017
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Subject: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-05.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Custom Subscription to Event Notifications
        Authors         : Eric Voit
                          Alexander Clemm
                          Alberto Gonzalez Prieto
                          Einar Nilsen-Nygaard
                          Ambika Prasad Tripathy
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-05.txt
	Pages           : 50
	Date            : 2017-10-03

Abstract:
   This document defines capabilities and operations for the customized
   establishment of subscriptions upon a publisher's event streams.
   Also defined are delivery mechanisms for instances of the resulting
   events.  Effectively this allows a subscriber to request and receive
   a continuous, custom influx of publisher generated information.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-05
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-05

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From nobody Tue Oct  3 07:21:41 2017
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Subject: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-10.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Subscribing to YANG datastore push updates
        Authors         : Alexander Clemm
                          Eric Voit
                          Alberto Gonzalez Prieto
                          Ambika Prasad Tripathy
                          Einar Nilsen-Nygaard
                          Andy Bierman
                          Balazs Lengyel
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-10.txt
	Pages           : 53
	Date            : 2017-10-03

Abstract:
   Providing rapid visibility into changes made on YANG configuration
   and operational objects enables new capabilities such as remote
   mirroring of configuration and operational state.  Via the mechanism
   described in this document, subscriber applications may request a
   continuous, customized stream of updates from a YANG datastore.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-10
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-10

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-10


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From nobody Tue Oct  3 09:52:37 2017
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From: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
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Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2017 09:52:29 -0700
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To: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] early code point allocation for zerotouch DHCP options
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The request for an early code point allocation for codes below requires =
WG consensus.

Since this is a WG document that is in LC, we believe there is implicit =
support for it, and by extension, support for an early/temporary DHCP =
code point to foster implementation experience. We would like to give =
the WG a chance to have a say in it. Please respond to this thread =
within 48 hours if you have any objections to this early allocation.

Thanks

Mahesh and Kent (as co-chairs).

> On Oct 2, 2017, at 10:44 AM, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:
>=20
> NETCONF Chairs,
>=20
> As an author interested in early implementation experience with the =
DHCP-based bootstrapping solution defined in the zerotouch draft, per =
the process defined in [1], I hereby request early allocation for the =
DHCP option codes:
>=20
> 	OPTION_V4_ZEROTOUCH_REDIRECT
> 	OPTION_V6_ZEROTOUCH_REDIRECT
>=20
> which are defined in [2], with the IANA assignment request in [3].   =
Please note that the effected registries are designated "IETF Review", =
"Expert Review", and "Standards Action" [4][5].
>=20
>=20
> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7120#section-3.1
> [2] =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch-17#section-8
> [3] =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch-17#section-10.1
> [4] =
https://www.iana.org/assignments/bootp-dhcp-parameters/bootp-dhcp-paramete=
rs.xhtml#options
> [5] =
https://www.iana.org/assignments/dhcpv6-parameters/dhcpv6-parameters.xhtml=
#dhcpv6-parameters-2
>=20
>=20
> Thank you,
> Kent
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf




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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2017 10:11:05 -0700
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To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
Cc: "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com>,  "draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org>,  NETCONF <netconf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages: YANG validation issues
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On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 2:57 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Andy,
>
> Hi Benoit,
>
>
>
> *From:* Andy Bierman, October 2, 2017 2:58 PM
>
> On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 1:46 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Dear authors,
>
> See http://www.claise.be/IETFYANGPageCompilation.html
> Note: you can download the extracted YANG module on the web page, to make
> sure the line # are similar
>
> Regarding the pyang error:
>
> ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:220: error: the 'yang-data'
> extension must have exactly one child that is a container
> ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237: error: the 'yang-data'
> extension must have exactly one child that is a container
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8040#section-8
>
> It MUST contain data definition statements
>
> that result in exactly one container data node definition.
>
>
>
>
>
> <eric> Yep, missed that, will fix.
>
>
>
> Note that a similar issue (choice with yang-data) was discussed on the
> NETCONF mailing list.
> See the "yang-data cannot encode a choice statement?" email thread.
>
> For the yumadum-pro errors, I'll let Andy investigate:
>
> Error: Got 'anydata', Expected: right brace
> ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:227.5: error(245): wrong token
> type
>
> Error: Got 'semicolon', Expected: body statement
> ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:232.25: error(245): wrong
> token type
>
> Error: Extra input after end of module starting on line 237
> ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237.3: error(281): extra node
>
> ***
> *** 3 Errors, 0 Warnings
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The error handled code needs to be fixed so it is more clear that it is
> reporting the same error:
>
>
>
>  /* Message to a receiver containing one notification.*/
>
>   rc:yang-data message {
>
>     container message-header {
>
>       description
>
>         "delineates header info from content for easy parsing.";
>
>       uses notification-header;
>
>       uses message-header;
>
>     }
>
>     anydata notification-contents {
>
>       description
>
>         "Non-header info of what actually got sent to receiver.  This
>
>         includes after any content based security filtering.  Need to
>
>         determine if/how it is viable not to include tag encapsulation
>
>         for this object.";
>
>     }
>
>   }
>
>
>
> IMO the entire special-case handling of yang-data should be redone.
>
> Comments on example above pushing yang-data past its intended usage:
>
>
>
> 1) The "message" parameter does not get used anywhere, ant it gives
>
>     people the impression they can declare duplicate siblings in the same
> namespace
>
>
>
>      rc:yang-data foo {
>
>        container X;
>
>      }
>
>
>
>      rc:yang-data bar {
>
>        container X;
>
>      }
>
>
>
> This is actually invalid because the assigned XML namespace is the same
> for both /X nodes.
>
>
>
> <eric> In the case for notification-messages, there need not be the same
> top level nodes used for within a container.  But in general, I see how
> this could get confusing for other users of yang-data.
>
>
>



The problem in this draft is that the defined structures describe 2
consecutive containers,
which would be an invalid XML representation.

So a compliant yang-data def would be :

rc:yang-data message {
  container message {
     container message-header { ... }
     anydata notification-contents { ... }
  }
}

IMO YANG is mostly useless for what you are trying to do here.
YANG has no substitutionGroup like XSD.
You cannot say "place a node with any name here, that matches the
replacement tag".
Instead YANG provides a named container (notification-contents) and inside
that container
there is an arbitrary subtree.

The simple mapping from "child of <notification>" to "YANG
notification-stmt" seems to be missing.


Andy





>
>
> 2) Using anydata as the notification contents hides the schema for the
> real notification.
>
> <eric> As there will be many notifications, and more will be added, I
> think this is a required part of a solution.  We need a level of
> indirection to pull in other elements of the schema.
>
>
>
>     How does a client know which 'real' schema to apply to parse each
> specific event type?
>
> <eric> The namespace and message name are the first elements of after the
> header.  If that is not sufficient, we could pull these out as additional
> notification headers.  (That isn=E2=80=99t shown now.)
>
>
>
> Eric
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards, B.
>
>
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>

--94eb2c1a1db6a5055b055aa7933f
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 2:57 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:evoit@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">evoit@cisco.com</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-6699758889855814500WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5b9bd5">Hi Andy,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5b9bd5">Hi Benoit,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Andy Bierman, October 2, 2017 =
2:58 PM<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 1:46 AM, Benoit Claise &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear authors,<br>
<br>
See <a href=3D"http://www.claise.be/IETFYANGPageCompilation.html" target=3D=
"_blank">http://www.claise.be/<wbr>IETFYANGPageCompilation.html</a><br>
Note: you can download the extracted YANG module on the web page, to make s=
ure the line # are similar<br>
<br>
Regarding the pyang error:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09=
-28.yang:220" target=3D"_blank">ietf-notification-messages@<wbr>2017-09-28.=
yang:220</a>: error: the &#39;yang-data&#39; extension must have exactly on=
e child that is a container<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237" target=3D=
"_blank">ietf-notification-messages@<wbr>2017-09-28.yang:237</a>: error: th=
e &#39;yang-data&#39; extension must have exactly one child that is a conta=
iner<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8040#secti=
on-8" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>rfc8040#section-8<=
/a><u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>It MUST contain data definition statements<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>that result in exactly one container data node definition.<u></u><u></=
u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-s=
erif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-right:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-s=
erif;color:#5b9bd5">&lt;eric&gt; Yep, missed that, will fix.<u></u><u></u><=
/span></pre>
<pre><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Note that a similar issue (choice with yang-data) wa=
s discussed on the NETCONF mailing list.<br>
See the &quot;yang-data cannot encode a choice statement?&quot; email threa=
d.<br>
<br>
For the yumadum-pro errors, I&#39;ll let Andy investigate:<u></u><u></u></p=
>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Error: Got &#39;anydata&#39;, Expected: right brace<=
br>
<a href=3D"mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:227.5" target=
=3D"_blank">ietf-notification-messages@<wbr>2017-09-28.yang:227.5</a>: erro=
r(245): wrong token type<br>
<br>
Error: Got &#39;semicolon&#39;, Expected: body statement<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:232.25" target=
=3D"_blank">ietf-notification-messages@<wbr>2017-09-28.yang:232.25</a>: err=
or(245): wrong token type<br>
<br>
Error: Extra input after end of module starting on line 237<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237.3" target=
=3D"_blank">ietf-notification-messages@<wbr>2017-09-28.yang:237.3</a>: erro=
r(281): extra node<br>
<br>
*** <br>
*** 3 Errors, 0 Warnings<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The error handled code needs to be fixed so it is mo=
re clear that it is reporting the same error:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0/* Message to a receiver containing one notifi=
cation.*/<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 rc:yang-data message {<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 container message-header {<u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 description<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;delineates header =
info from content for easy parsing.&quot;;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 uses notification-header;<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 uses message-header;<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 anydata notification-contents {<u></u>=
<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 description<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;Non-header info of=
 what actually got sent to receiver.=C2=A0 This<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 includes after any conte=
nt based security filtering.=C2=A0 Need to<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 determine if/how it is v=
iable not to include tag encapsulation<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 for this object.&quot;;<=
u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 }<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">IMO the entire special-case handling of yang-data sh=
ould be redone.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Comments on example above pushing yang-data past its=
 intended usage:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">1) The &quot;message&quot; parameter does not get us=
ed anywhere, ant it gives<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 people the impression they can declare=
 duplicate siblings in the same namespace<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0rc:yang-data foo {<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0container X;<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0rc:yang-data bar {<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0container X;<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This is actually invalid because the assigned XML na=
mespace is the same for both /X nodes.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5b9bd5">&lt;eric&gt; In the case for notifica=
tion-messages, there need not be the same top level nodes used for within a=
 container.=C2=A0 But in general, I see how this could get
 confusing for other users of yang-data.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0</span></p></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><d=
iv>The problem in this draft is that the defined structures describe 2 cons=
ecutive containers,</div><div>which would be an invalid XML representation.=
</div><div><br></div><div>So a compliant yang-data def would be :</div><div=
><br></div><div>rc:yang-data message {</div><div>=C2=A0 container message {=
</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0container message-header { ... }</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0anydata notification-contents { ... }</div><div>=C2=A0 =
}</div><div>}</div><div><br></div><div>IMO YANG is mostly useless for what =
you are trying to do here.</div><div>YANG has no substitutionGroup like XSD=
.</div><div>You cannot say &quot;place a node with any name here, that matc=
hes the replacement tag&quot;.</div><div>Instead YANG provides a named cont=
ainer (notification-contents) and inside that container</div><div>there is =
an arbitrary subtree.</div><div><br></div><div>The simple mapping from &quo=
t;child of &lt;notification&gt;&quot; to &quot;YANG notification-stmt&quot;=
 seems to be missing.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><di=
v><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"pur=
ple"><div class=3D"m_-6699758889855814500WordSection1"><div style=3D"border=
:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt"><div><div><di=
v><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">2) Using anydata as the notification contents hides =
the schema for the real notification.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5b9bd5">&lt;eric&gt; As there will be many no=
tifications, and more will be added, I think this is a required part of a s=
olution.=C2=A0 We need a level of indirection to pull in
 other elements of the schema. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 How does a client know which &#39;real=
&#39; schema to apply to parse each specific event type?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5b9bd5">&lt;eric&gt; The namespace and messag=
e name are the first elements of after the header.=C2=A0 If that is not suf=
ficient, we could pull these out as additional notification
 headers.=C2=A0 (That isn=E2=80=99t shown now.)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5b9bd5"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5b9bd5">Eric<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards, B.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Andy<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--94eb2c1a1db6a5055b055aa7933f--


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
CC: "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com>, "draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org>, NETCONF <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages: YANG validation issues
Thread-Index: AQHTO1r08tlxvbR1a0WrvoTzBfuxZqLRLR0A///ja8CAAZEBgP//vSpg
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2017 17:24:27 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages: YANG validation issues
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From nobody Tue Oct  3 15:39:58 2017
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Subject: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages-02.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Notification Message Headers and Bundles
        Authors         : Eric Voit
                          Andy Bierman
                          Alexander Clemm
                          Tim Jenkins
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages-02.txt
	Pages           : 22
	Date            : 2017-10-03

Abstract:
   This document defines a new notification message format, using yang-
   data.  Included are:

   o  a new notification mechanism and encoding to replace the one way
      operation of RFC-5277

   o  a set of common, transport agnostic message header objects.

   o  how to bundle multiple event records into a single notification
      message.

   o  how to ensure these new capabilities are only used with capable
      receivers.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages-02
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages-02


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
CC: "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com>, "draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org>, NETCONF <netconf@ietf.org>
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To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: "draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org>, NETCONF <netconf@ietf.org>
References: <045fb6c7-5bda-65e5-ff9e-3f207bea5d29@cisco.com> <CABCOCHS6drdnc-yCV2YUthJMSxr+RXWC6QZnRyowyXv+u_qRTw@mail.gmail.com> <a41d36254b2a4c52af4408535988942f@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <CABCOCHSvXgH_qp5sRC2+ikwJknKREoJWjoMKE1QRhJORzfYJUQ@mail.gmail.com> <d296fa40bb0646eaa30109aa6696edae@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com>
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
Message-ID: <f0f70ded-5e21-639c-3a9a-cd2bb976257b@cisco.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2017 14:34:45 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages: YANG validation issues
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Thanks Eric,

One last error, reported by yumadump-pro

Error: No key present for list 'notifications' on line 286
ietf-notification-messages@2017-10-03.yang:301.7: error(272): data missing

***
*** 1 Errors, 0 Warnings


 Â  rc:yang-data bundled-message {
 Â Â Â  container bundled-message {
 Â Â Â Â Â  presence
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  "Indicates attempt to communicate notifications to a receiver.";
 Â Â Â Â Â  description
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  "Message to a receiver containing many bundled notifications";
 Â Â Â Â Â  container bundled-message-header {
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  description
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  "Header info for messages.";
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  uses message-header {
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  refine message-time {
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  mandatory true;
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  }
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  }
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  leaf notification-count {
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  type uint16;
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  description
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  "Quantity of notification records in a bundled-message
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  specific receiver.";
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  }
 Â Â Â Â Â  }
 Â Â Â Â Â  list notifications { <========== line 286
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  description
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  "Set of notifications to a receiver.";
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  container notification-header {
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  description
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  "Header info for each bundled notification.";
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  uses notification-header;
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  }
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  anydata notification-contents {
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  description
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  "Encapsultates objects following YANG's notification-stmt
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  grammar of RFC-7950 section 14.Â  Within are the notified
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  objects the publisher actually generated in order to be
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  passed to a receiver after all filtering has completed.";
 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  }
 Â Â Â Â Â  }
 Â Â Â  }
 Â  }

Regards, Benoit
>
> YANG Model embedded now matches Andyâ€™s suggestions below on container 
> structure, other small tweaks embedded.Â  More to be done.Â  Compile has 
> returned ok, clearing that issue.
>
> Eric
>
> draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages-02.txt:
>
> xym 0.4:
>
> Extracting 'ietf-notification-messages.yang'
>
> ietf-notification-messages@2017-10-03.yang:
>
> pyang 1.7.3: pyang --verbose --ietf -p {libs} {model}:
>
> No validation errors
>
> yanglint 0.13.69: yanglint --verbose -p {rfclib} -p {draftlib} -p 
> {tmplib} {model}:
>
> No validation errors
>
> *From:*Andy Bierman, October 3, 2017 1:11 PM
> *To:* Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* Benoit Claise (bclaise) <bclaise@cisco.com>; 
> draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org; NETCONF 
> <netconf@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages: YANG 
> validation issues
>
> On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 2:57 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com 
> <mailto:evoit@cisco.com>> wrote:
>
>     Hi Andy,
>
>     Hi Benoit,
>
>     *From:*Andy Bierman, October 2, 2017 2:58 PM
>
>     On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 1:46 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com
>     <mailto:bclaise@cisco.com>> wrote:
>
>         Dear authors,
>
>         See http://www.claise.be/IETFYANGPageCompilation.html
>         Note: you can download the extracted YANG module on the web
>         page, to make sure the line # are similar
>
>         Regarding the pyang error:
>
>             ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:220
>             <mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:220>:
>             error: the 'yang-data' extension must have exactly one
>             child that is a container
>             ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237
>             <mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237>:
>             error: the 'yang-data' extension must have exactly one
>             child that is a container
>
>         https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8040#section-8
>
>             It MUST contain data definition statements
>
>             that result in exactly one container data node definition.
>
>             <eric> Yep, missed that, will fix.
>
>               
>
>         Note that a similar issue (choice with yang-data) was
>         discussed on the NETCONF mailing list.
>         See the "yang-data cannot encode a choice statement?" email
>         thread.
>
>         For the yumadum-pro errors, I'll let Andy investigate:
>
>             Error: Got 'anydata', Expected: right brace
>             ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:227.5
>             <mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:227.5>:
>             error(245): wrong token type
>
>             Error: Got 'semicolon', Expected: body statement
>             ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:232.25
>             <mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:232.25>:
>             error(245): wrong token type
>
>             Error: Extra input after end of module starting on line 237
>             ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237.3
>             <mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237.3>:
>             error(281): extra node
>
>             ***
>             *** 3 Errors, 0 Warnings
>
>     The error handled code needs to be fixed so it is more clear that
>     it is reporting the same error:
>
>     Â /* Message to a receiver containing one notification.*/
>
>     rc:yang-data message {
>
>     Â  container message-header {
>
>     Â  Â  description
>
>     Â  Â  Â  "delineates header info from content for easy parsing.";
>
>     Â  Â  uses notification-header;
>
>     Â  Â  uses message-header;
>
>     Â  }
>
>     Â  anydata notification-contents {
>
>     Â  Â  description
>
>     Â  Â  Â  "Non-header info of what actually got sent to receiver.Â  This
>
>     Â  Â  Â  includes after any content based security filtering.Â  Need to
>
>     Â  Â  Â  determine if/how it is viable not to include tag encapsulation
>
>     Â  Â  Â  for this object.";
>
>     Â  }
>
>     }
>
>     IMO the entire special-case handling of yang-data should be redone.
>
>     Comments on example above pushing yang-data past its intended usage:
>
>     1) The "message" parameter does not get used anywhere, ant it gives
>
>     Â  people the impression they can declare duplicate siblings in the
>     same namespace
>
>     Â  Â rc:yang-data foo {
>
>     Â  Â  Â container X;
>
>     Â  Â }
>
>     Â  Â rc:yang-data bar {
>
>     Â  Â  Â container X;
>
>     Â  Â }
>
>     This is actually invalid because the assigned XML namespace is the
>     same for both /X nodes.
>
>     <eric> In the case for notification-messages, there need not be
>     the same top level nodes used for within a container.Â  But in
>     general, I see how this could get confusing for other users of
>     yang-data.
>
> The problem in this draft is that the defined structures describe 2 
> consecutive containers,
>
> which would be an invalid XML representation.
>
> So a compliant yang-data def would be :
>
> rc:yang-data message {
>
> Â  container message {
>
> Â  Â  Â container message-header { ... }
>
> Â  Â  Â anydata notification-contents { ... }
>
> Â  }
>
> }
>
> IMO YANG is mostly useless for what you are trying to do here.
>
> YANG has no substitutionGroup like XSD.
>
> You cannot say "place a node with any name here, that matches the 
> replacement tag".
>
> Instead YANG provides a named container (notification-contents) and 
> inside that container
>
> there is an arbitrary subtree.
>
> The simple mapping from "child of <notification>" to "YANG 
> notification-stmt" seems to be missing.
>
> Andy
>
>     2) Using anydata as the notification contents hides the schema for
>     the real notification.
>
>     <eric> As there will be many notifications, and more will be
>     added, I think this is a required part of a solution. We need a
>     level of indirection to pull in other elements of the schema.
>
>     Â  How does a client know which 'real' schema to apply to parse
>     each specific event type?
>
>     <eric> The namespace and message name are the first elements of
>     after the header.Â  If that is not sufficient, we could pull these
>     out as additional notification headers. (That isnâ€™t shown now.)
>
>     Eric
>
>         Regards, B.
>
>     Andy
>


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Thanks Eric,<br>
      <br>
      One last error, reported by yumadump-pro<br>
      <br>
      Error: No key present for list 'notifications' on line 286<br>
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-10-03.yang:301.7">ietf-notification-messages@2017-10-03.yang:301.7</a>: error(272): data
      missing<br>
      <br>
      *** <br>
      *** 1 Errors, 0 Warnings<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      Â  rc:yang-data bundled-message {<br>
      Â Â Â  container bundled-message {<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â  presence<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  "Indicates attempt to communicate notifications to a
      receiver.";<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â  description<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  "Message to a receiver containing many bundled
      notifications";<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â  container bundled-message-header {<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  description<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  "Header info for messages.";<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  uses message-header {<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  refine message-time {<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  mandatory true;<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  }<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  }<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  leaf notification-count {<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  type uint16;<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  description<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  "Quantity of notification records in a
      bundled-message<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  specific receiver.";<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  }<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â  }<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â  list notifications {Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
      &lt;========== line 286<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  description<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  "Set of notifications to a receiver.";<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  container notification-header {<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  description<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  "Header info for each bundled notification.";<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  uses notification-header;<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  }<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  anydata notification-contents {<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  description<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  "Encapsultates objects following YANG's
      notification-stmt<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  grammar of RFC-7950 section 14.Â  Within are the
      notified<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  objects the publisher actually generated in order to
      be<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  passed to a receiver after all filtering has
      completed.";<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  }<br>
      Â Â Â Â Â  }<br>
      Â Â Â  }Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â Â 
      Â Â Â Â Â  <br>
      Â  }<br>
      <br>
      Regards, Benoit<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:d296fa40bb0646eaa30109aa6696edae@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com">
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">YANG
            Model embedded now matches Andyâ€™s suggestions below on
            container structure, other small tweaks embedded.Â  More to
            be done.Â  Compile has returned ok, clearing that issue.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Eric<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
            style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
New&quot;;color:#D9D9D9;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#D9D9D9;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#D9D9D9;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#D9D9D9;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages-02.txt:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#D9D9D9;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#D9D9D9;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">xym
            0.4:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#D9D9D9;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#D9D9D9;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">Extracting
            'ietf-notification-messages.yang'<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#D9D9D9;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#D9D9D9;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#D9D9D9;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#D9D9D9;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-10-03.yang">ietf-notification-messages@2017-10-03.yang</a>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#D9D9D9;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#D9D9D9;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">pyang
            1.7.3: pyang --verbose --ietf -p {libs} {model}:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#D9D9D9;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#D9D9D9;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">No
            validation errors<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#D9D9D9;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#D9D9D9;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#D9D9D9;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#D9D9D9;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">yanglint
            0.13.69: yanglint --verbose -p {rfclib} -p {draftlib} -p
            {tmplib} {model}:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#D9D9D9;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#D9D9D9;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">No
            validation errors<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
                    style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">
                  Andy Bierman, October 3, 2017 1:11 PM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> Eric Voit (evoit) <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:evoit@cisco.com">&lt;evoit@cisco.com&gt;</a><br>
                  <b>Cc:</b> Benoit Claise (bclaise)
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">&lt;bclaise@cisco.com&gt;</a>;
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org">draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org</a>;
                  NETCONF <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:netconf@ietf.org">&lt;netconf@ietf.org&gt;</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re:
                  draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages: YANG
                  validation issues<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 2:57 PM,
                  Eric Voit (evoit) &lt;<a href="mailto:evoit@cisco.com"
                    target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">evoit@cisco.com</a>&gt;
                  wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
                <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
                  1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
                  6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5B9BD5">Hi
                          Andy,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5B9BD5">Hi
                          Benoit,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Â </span><o:p></o:p></p>
                      <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
                        1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
                        <div>
                          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid
                            #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">
                                Andy Bierman, October 2, 2017 2:58 PM</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On
                                Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 1:46 AM, Benoit
                                Claise &lt;<a
                                  href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com"
                                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;
                                wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <blockquote
                                style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                    style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Dear
                                    authors,<br>
                                    <br>
                                    See <a
                                      href="http://www.claise.be/IETFYANGPageCompilation.html"
                                      target="_blank"
                                      moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.claise.be/IETFYANGPageCompilation.html</a><br>
                                    Note: you can download the extracted
                                    YANG module on the web page, to make
                                    sure the line # are similar<br>
                                    <br>
                                    Regarding the pyang error:<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  <blockquote
                                    style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a
href="mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:220"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:220</a>:
                                      error: the 'yang-data' extension
                                      must have exactly one child that
                                      is a container<br>
                                      <a
                                        href="mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237</a>:
                                      error: the 'yang-data' extension
                                      must have exactly one child that
                                      is a container<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                    style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a
href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8040#section-8" target="_blank"
                                      moz-do-not-send="true">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8040#section-8</a><o:p></o:p></p>
                                  <blockquote
                                    style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                    <pre>It MUST contain data definition statements<o:p></o:p></pre>
                                    <pre>that result in exactly one container data node definition.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                                    <pre><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Â </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
                                    <pre style="margin-right:.5in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Â </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
                                    <pre><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5B9BD5">&lt;eric&gt; Yep, missed that, will fix.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
                                    <pre>Â <o:p></o:p></pre>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                    style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Note
                                    that a similar issue (choice with
                                    yang-data) was discussed on the
                                    NETCONF mailing list.<br>
                                    See the "yang-data cannot encode a
                                    choice statement?" email thread.<br>
                                    <br>
                                    For the yumadum-pro errors, I'll let
                                    Andy investigate:<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  <blockquote
                                    style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Error:
                                      Got 'anydata', Expected: right
                                      brace<br>
                                      <a
                                        href="mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:227.5"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:227.5</a>:
                                      error(245): wrong token type<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Error: Got 'semicolon', Expected:
                                      body statement<br>
                                      <a
                                        href="mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:232.25"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:232.25</a>:
                                      error(245): wrong token type<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Error: Extra input after end of
                                      module starting on line 237<br>
                                      <a
                                        href="mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237.3"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237.3</a>:
                                      error(281): extra node<br>
                                      <br>
                                      *** <br>
                                      *** 3 Errors, 0 Warnings<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                    style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                                </div>
                              </blockquote>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">The
                                  error handled code needs to be fixed
                                  so it is more clear that it is
                                  reporting the same error:<o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â /*
                                  Message to a receiver containing one
                                  notification.*/<o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                  rc:yang-data message {<o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                  Â  container message-header {<o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                  Â  Â  description<o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                  Â  Â  Â  "delineates header info from
                                  content for easy parsing.";<o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                  Â  Â  uses notification-header;<o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                  Â  Â  uses message-header;<o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                  Â  }<o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                  Â  anydata notification-contents {<o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                  Â  Â  description<o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                  Â  Â  Â  "Non-header info of what
                                  actually got sent to receiver.Â  This<o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                  Â  Â  Â  includes after any content based
                                  security filtering.Â  Need to<o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                  Â  Â  Â  determine if/how it is viable
                                  not to include tag encapsulation<o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                  Â  Â  Â  for this object.";<o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                  Â  }<o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                  }<o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">IMO
                                  the entire special-case handling of
                                  yang-data should be redone.<o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Comments
                                  on example above pushing yang-data
                                  past its intended usage:<o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">1)
                                  The "message" parameter does not get
                                  used anywhere, ant it gives<o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                  Â  people the impression they can
                                  declare duplicate siblings in the same
                                  namespace<o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                  Â  Â rc:yang-data foo {<o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                  Â  Â  Â container X;<o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                  Â  Â }<o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                    style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                    Â  Â rc:yang-data bar {<o:p></o:p></p>
                                </div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                    style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                    Â  Â  Â container X;<o:p></o:p></p>
                                </div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                    style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                    Â  Â }<o:p></o:p></p>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">This
                                  is actually invalid because the
                                  assigned XML namespace is the same for
                                  both /X nodes.<o:p></o:p></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Â </span><o:p></o:p></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5B9BD5">&lt;eric&gt;
                                    In the case for
                                    notification-messages, there need
                                    not be the same top level nodes used
                                    for within a container.Â  But in
                                    general, I see how this could get
                                    confusing for other users of
                                    yang-data.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Â </span><o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">The problem in this draft is that
                    the defined structures describe 2 consecutive
                    containers,<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">which would be an invalid XML
                    representation.<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">So a compliant yang-data def
                    would be :<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">rc:yang-data message {<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">Â  container message {<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">Â  Â  Â container message-header {
                    ... }<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">Â  Â  Â anydata
                    notification-contents { ... }<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">Â  }<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">}<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">IMO YANG is mostly useless for
                    what you are trying to do here.<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">YANG has no substitutionGroup
                    like XSD.<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">You cannot say "place a node with
                    any name here, that matches the replacement tag".<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">Instead YANG provides a named
                    container (notification-contents) and inside that
                    container<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">there is an arbitrary subtree.<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">The simple mapping from "child of
                    &lt;notification&gt;" to "YANG notification-stmt"
                    seems to be missing.<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">Andy<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">Â  Â  Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
                  1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
                  6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
                        1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">2)
                                  Using anydata as the notification
                                  contents hides the schema for the real
                                  notification.<o:p></o:p></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5B9BD5">&lt;eric&gt;
                                    As there will be many notifications,
                                    and more will be added, I think this
                                    is a required part of a solution.Â 
                                    We need a level of indirection to
                                    pull in other elements of the
                                    schema.
                                  </span><o:p></o:p></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Â </span><o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                  Â  How does a client know which 'real'
                                  schema to apply to parse each specific
                                  event type?<o:p></o:p></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5B9BD5">&lt;eric&gt;
                                    The namespace and message name are
                                    the first elements of after the
                                    header.Â  If that is not sufficient,
                                    we could pull these out as
                                    additional notification headers.Â 
                                    (That isnâ€™t shown now.)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5B9BD5">Â </span><o:p></o:p></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5B9BD5">Eric</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <blockquote
                                style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                    style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Regards,
                                    B.<o:p></o:p></p>
                                </div>
                              </blockquote>
                            </div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Andy<o:p></o:p></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------BFD94FA5BF5F076021676822--


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com>
CC: "draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org>, NETCONF <netconf@ietf.org>, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages: YANG validation issues
Thread-Index: AQHTO1r08tlxvbR1a0WrvoTzBfuxZqLRLR0A///ja8CAAZEBgIAAGUfwgAEr2YD//8nYYA==
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2017 13:47:41 +0000
Message-ID: <b953bd4b3a694d5aac722e8029533189@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com>
References: <045fb6c7-5bda-65e5-ff9e-3f207bea5d29@cisco.com> <CABCOCHS6drdnc-yCV2YUthJMSxr+RXWC6QZnRyowyXv+u_qRTw@mail.gmail.com> <a41d36254b2a4c52af4408535988942f@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <CABCOCHSvXgH_qp5sRC2+ikwJknKREoJWjoMKE1QRhJORzfYJUQ@mail.gmail.com> <d296fa40bb0646eaa30109aa6696edae@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <f0f70ded-5e21-639c-3a9a-cd2bb976257b@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages: YANG validation issues
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To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
Cc: "draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org>, NETCONF <netconf@ietf.org>, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
References: <045fb6c7-5bda-65e5-ff9e-3f207bea5d29@cisco.com> <CABCOCHS6drdnc-yCV2YUthJMSxr+RXWC6QZnRyowyXv+u_qRTw@mail.gmail.com> <a41d36254b2a4c52af4408535988942f@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <CABCOCHSvXgH_qp5sRC2+ikwJknKREoJWjoMKE1QRhJORzfYJUQ@mail.gmail.com> <d296fa40bb0646eaa30109aa6696edae@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <f0f70ded-5e21-639c-3a9a-cd2bb976257b@cisco.com> <b953bd4b3a694d5aac722e8029533189@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com>
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2017 18:04:38 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages: YANG validation issues
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Hi Eric,
>
> Hi Benoit,
>
> Per RFC7590 section 7.8.2, the list statement only needs a key when 
> representing config data.Â  These elements in a notification/yang-data 
> certainly arenâ€™t traditional config data nodes.
>
> The immediate answer you might have is that we could require â€œconfig 
> falseâ€ for containers under notifications or yang data.Â  Â But when I 
> do that for this model, pyang gives me warnings.
>
> ietf-notification-messages@2017-10-04.yang:273: warning: explicit 
> config statement is ignored
>
> So I donâ€™t really want to upload a new version of this model that 
> gives this warning.
>
> I think that a more flexible answer would be that the test tool can 
> safely assume â€œconfig falseâ€ for notifications or yang-data.Â  This 
> should get rid of this class of yang errors.
>
This one is for Andy's tool.
>
> Eric
>
> P.S.: If you are including after-the-upload YANG error checking by 
> yumadump-pro as part of compliance, is there any way we could make it 
> part of the during-the-upload validation? This will help avoid 
> unnecessary draft version churn.
>
And this one is for Andy as well.

Regards, Benoit
>
> *From:*Benoit Claise, October 4, 2017 8:35 AM
> *To:* Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com>; Andy Bierman 
> <andy@yumaworks.com>
> *Cc:* draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org; NETCONF 
> <netconf@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages: YANG 
> validation issues
>
> Thanks Eric,
>
> One last error, reported by yumadump-pro
>
> Error: No key present for list 'notifications' on line 286
> ietf-notification-messages@2017-10-03.yang:301.7 
> <mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-10-03.yang:301.7>: error(272): 
> data missing
>
> ***
> *** 1 Errors, 0 Warnings
>
>
> Â  rc:yang-data bundled-message {
> Â Â Â  container bundled-message {
> Â Â Â Â Â  presence
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  "Indicates attempt to communicate notifications to a receiver.";
> Â Â Â Â Â  description
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  "Message to a receiver containing many bundled notifications";
> Â Â Â Â Â  container bundled-message-header {
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  description
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  "Header info for messages.";
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  uses message-header {
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  refine message-time {
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  mandatory true;
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  }
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  }
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  leaf notification-count {
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  type uint16;
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  description
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  "Quantity of notification records in a bundled-message
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  specific receiver.";
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  }
> Â Â Â Â Â  }
> Â Â Â Â Â  list notifications {Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  
> <========== line 286
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  description
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  "Set of notifications to a receiver.";
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  container notification-header {
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  description
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  "Header info for each bundled notification.";
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  uses notification-header;
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  }
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  anydata notification-contents {
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  description
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  "Encapsultates objects following YANG's notification-stmt
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  grammar of RFC-7950 section 14.Â  Within are the notified
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  objects the publisher actually generated in order to be
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  passed to a receiver after all filtering has completed.";
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  }
> Â Â Â Â Â  }
> Â Â Â  }
> Â  }
>
> Regards, Benoit
>
>     YANG Model embedded now matches Andyâ€™s suggestions below on
>     container structure, other small tweaks embedded.Â  More to be
>     done.Â  Compile has returned ok, clearing that issue.
>
>     Eric
>
>     draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages-02.txt:
>
>     xym 0.4:
>
>     Extracting 'ietf-notification-messages.yang'
>
>     ietf-notification-messages@2017-10-03.yang
>     <mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-10-03.yang>:
>
>     pyang 1.7.3: pyang --verbose --ietf -p {libs} {model}:
>
>     No validation errors
>
>     yanglint 0.13.69: yanglint --verbose -p {rfclib} -p {draftlib} -p
>     {tmplib} {model}:
>
>     No validation errors
>
>     *From:*Andy Bierman, October 3, 2017 1:11 PM
>     *To:* Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com> <mailto:evoit@cisco.com>
>     *Cc:* Benoit Claise (bclaise) <bclaise@cisco.com>
>     <mailto:bclaise@cisco.com>;
>     draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org>;
>     NETCONF <netconf@ietf.org> <mailto:netconf@ietf.org>
>     *Subject:* Re: draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages: YANG
>     validation issues
>
>     On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 2:57 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com
>     <mailto:evoit@cisco.com>> wrote:
>
>         Hi Andy,
>
>         Hi Benoit,
>
>         *From:*Andy Bierman, October 2, 2017 2:58 PM
>
>         On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 1:46 AM, Benoit Claise
>         <bclaise@cisco.com <mailto:bclaise@cisco.com>> wrote:
>
>             Dear authors,
>
>             See http://www.claise.be/IETFYANGPageCompilation.html
>             Note: you can download the extracted YANG module on the
>             web page, to make sure the line # are similar
>
>             Regarding the pyang error:
>
>                 ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:220
>                 <mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:220>:
>                 error: the 'yang-data' extension must have exactly one
>                 child that is a container
>                 ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237
>                 <mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237>:
>                 error: the 'yang-data' extension must have exactly one
>                 child that is a container
>
>             https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8040#section-8
>
>                 It MUST contain data definition statements
>
>                 that result in exactly one container data node definition.
>
>                 <eric> Yep, missed that, will fix.
>
>                   
>
>             Note that a similar issue (choice with yang-data) was
>             discussed on the NETCONF mailing list.
>             See the "yang-data cannot encode a choice statement?"
>             email thread.
>
>             For the yumadum-pro errors, I'll let Andy investigate:
>
>                 Error: Got 'anydata', Expected: right brace
>                 ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:227.5
>                 <mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:227.5>:
>                 error(245): wrong token type
>
>                 Error: Got 'semicolon', Expected: body statement
>                 ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:232.25
>                 <mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:232.25>:
>                 error(245): wrong token type
>
>                 Error: Extra input after end of module starting on
>                 line 237
>                 ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237.3
>                 <mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237.3>:
>                 error(281): extra node
>
>                 ***
>                 *** 3 Errors, 0 Warnings
>
>         The error handled code needs to be fixed so it is more clear
>         that it is reporting the same error:
>
>         Â /* Message to a receiver containing one notification.*/
>
>         rc:yang-data message {
>
>         Â  container message-header {
>
>         Â  Â  description
>
>         Â  Â  Â  "delineates header info from content for easy parsing.";
>
>         Â  Â  uses notification-header;
>
>         Â  Â  uses message-header;
>
>         Â  }
>
>         Â  anydata notification-contents {
>
>         Â  Â  description
>
>         Â  Â  Â  "Non-header info of what actually got sent to receiver. This
>
>         Â  Â  Â  includes after any content based security filtering.Â 
>         Need to
>
>         Â  Â  Â  determine if/how it is viable not to include tag
>         encapsulation
>
>         Â  Â  Â  for this object.";
>
>         Â  }
>
>         }
>
>         IMO the entire special-case handling of yang-data should be
>         redone.
>
>         Comments on example above pushing yang-data past its intended
>         usage:
>
>         1) The "message" parameter does not get used anywhere, ant it
>         gives
>
>         Â  people the impression they can declare duplicate siblings in
>         the same namespace
>
>         Â  Â rc:yang-data foo {
>
>         Â  Â  Â container X;
>
>         Â  Â }
>
>         Â  Â rc:yang-data bar {
>
>         Â  Â  Â container X;
>
>         Â  Â }
>
>         This is actually invalid because the assigned XML namespace is
>         the same for both /X nodes.
>
>         <eric> In the case for notification-messages, there need not
>         be the same top level nodes used for within a container.Â  But
>         in general, I see how this could get confusing for other users
>         of yang-data.
>
>     The problem in this draft is that the defined structures describe
>     2 consecutive containers,
>
>     which would be an invalid XML representation.
>
>     So a compliant yang-data def would be :
>
>     rc:yang-data message {
>
>     Â  container message {
>
>     Â  Â  Â container message-header { ... }
>
>     Â  Â  Â anydata notification-contents { ... }
>
>     Â  }
>
>     }
>
>     IMO YANG is mostly useless for what you are trying to do here.
>
>     YANG has no substitutionGroup like XSD.
>
>     You cannot say "place a node with any name here, that matches the
>     replacement tag".
>
>     Instead YANG provides a named container (notification-contents)
>     and inside that container
>
>     there is an arbitrary subtree.
>
>     The simple mapping from "child of <notification>" to "YANG
>     notification-stmt" seems to be missing.
>
>     Andy
>
>         2) Using anydata as the notification contents hides the schema
>         for the real notification.
>
>         <eric> As there will be many notifications, and more will be
>         added, I think this is a required part of a solution.Â  We need
>         a level of indirection to pull in other elements of the schema.
>
>         Â  How does a client know which 'real' schema to apply to parse
>         each specific event type?
>
>         <eric> The namespace and message name are the first elements
>         of after the header.Â  If that is not sufficient, we could pull
>         these out as additional notification headers.Â  (That isnâ€™t
>         shown now.)
>
>         Eric
>
>             Regards, B.
>
>         Andy
>


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Eric,<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:b953bd4b3a694d5aac722e8029533189@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com">
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hi
            Benoit,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Per
            RFC7590 section 7.8.2, the list statement only needs a key
            when representing config data.Â  These elements in a
            notification/yang-data certainly arenâ€™t traditional config
            data nodes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The
            immediate answer you might have is that we could require
            â€œconfig falseâ€ for containers under notifications or yang
            data.Â  Â But when I do that for this model, pyang gives me
            warnings.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#BFBFBF;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#BFBFBF;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%"><span
              style="color:windowtext"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-10-04.yang:273">ietf-notification-messages@2017-10-04.yang:273</a>:
              warning: explicit config statement is ignored<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">So
            I donâ€™t really want to upload a new version of this model
            that gives this warning.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I
            think that a more flexible answer would be that the test
            tool can safely assume â€œconfig falseâ€ for notifications or
            yang-data.Â  This should get rid of this class of yang
            errors.</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    This one is for Andy's tool.<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:b953bd4b3a694d5aac722e8029533189@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Eric<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">P.S.:
            If you are including after-the-upload YANG error checking by
            yumadump-pro as part of compliance, is there any way we
            could make it part of the during-the-upload validation?Â 
            This will help avoid unnecessary draft version churn.</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    And this one is for Andy as well.<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:b953bd4b3a694d5aac722e8029533189@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">
                  Benoit Claise, October 4, 2017 8:35 AM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> Eric Voit (evoit) <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:evoit@cisco.com">&lt;evoit@cisco.com&gt;</a>;
                  Andy Bierman <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:andy@yumaworks.com">&lt;andy@yumaworks.com&gt;</a><br>
                  <b>Cc:</b>
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org">draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org</a>;
                  NETCONF <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:netconf@ietf.org">&lt;netconf@ietf.org&gt;</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re:
                  draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages: YANG
                  validation issues<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Thanks Eric,<br>
              <br>
              One last error, reported by yumadump-pro<br>
              <br>
              Error: No key present for list 'notifications' on line 286<br>
              <a
                href="mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-10-03.yang:301.7"
                moz-do-not-send="true">ietf-notification-messages@2017-10-03.yang:301.7</a>:
              error(272): data missing<br>
              <br>
              *** <br>
              *** 1 Errors, 0 Warnings<br>
              <br>
              <br>
              Â  rc:yang-data bundled-message {<br>
              Â Â Â  container bundled-message {<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â  presence<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  "Indicates attempt to communicate notifications to
              a receiver.";<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â  description<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  "Message to a receiver containing many bundled
              notifications";<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â  container bundled-message-header {<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  description<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  "Header info for messages.";<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  uses message-header {<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  refine message-time {<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  mandatory true;<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  }<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  }<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  leaf notification-count {<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  type uint16;<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  description<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  "Quantity of notification records in a
              bundled-message<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  specific receiver.";<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  }<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â  }<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â  list notifications
              {Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  &lt;==========
              line 286<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  description<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  "Set of notifications to a receiver.";<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  container notification-header {<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  description<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  "Header info for each bundled notification.";<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  uses notification-header;<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  }<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  anydata notification-contents {<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  description<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  "Encapsultates objects following YANG's
              notification-stmt<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  grammar of RFC-7950 section 14.Â  Within are
              the notified<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  objects the publisher actually generated in
              order to be<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  passed to a receiver after all filtering has
              completed.";<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  }<br>
              Â Â Â Â Â  }<br>
              Â Â Â  }Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â 
              Â  Â Â  Â Â Â Â Â  <br>
              Â  }<br>
              <br>
              Regards, Benoit<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">YANG
                Model embedded now matches Andyâ€™s suggestions below on
                container structure, other small tweaks embedded.Â  More
                to be done.Â  Compile has returned ok, clearing that
                issue.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Â </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Eric</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
                style="font-size:10.5pt">Â </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#D9D9D9">draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages-02.txt:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#D9D9D9">xym
                0.4:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#D9D9D9">Extracting
                'ietf-notification-messages.yang'</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#D9D9D9">Â </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#D9D9D9"><a
href="mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-10-03.yang"
                  moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#D9D9D9">ietf-notification-messages@2017-10-03.yang</span></a>:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#D9D9D9">pyang
                1.7.3: pyang --verbose --ietf -p {libs} {model}:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#D9D9D9">No
                validation errors</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#D9D9D9">Â </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#D9D9D9">yanglint
                0.13.69: yanglint --verbose -p {rfclib} -p {draftlib} -p
                {tmplib} {model}:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#D9D9D9">No
                validation errors</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Â </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
              1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
              <div>
                <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
                  1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
                        style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">
                      Andy Bierman, October 3, 2017 1:11 PM<br>
                      <b>To:</b> Eric Voit (evoit) <a
                        href="mailto:evoit@cisco.com"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;evoit@cisco.com&gt;</a><br>
                      <b>Cc:</b> Benoit Claise (bclaise) <a
                        href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;bclaise@cisco.com&gt;</a>;
                      <a
                        href="mailto:draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org</a>;
                      NETCONF
                      <a href="mailto:netconf@ietf.org"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;netconf@ietf.org&gt;</a><br>
                      <b>Subject:</b> Re:
                      draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages: YANG
                      validation issues</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 2:57 PM,
                      Eric Voit (evoit) &lt;<a
                        href="mailto:evoit@cisco.com" target="_blank"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">evoit@cisco.com</a>&gt;
                      wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
                    <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
                      #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5B9BD5">Hi
                              Andy,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5B9BD5">Hi
                              Benoit,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Â </span><o:p></o:p></p>
                          <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
                            1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
                            <div>
                              <div style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">
                                    Andy Bierman, October 2, 2017 2:58
                                    PM</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                    style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On
                                    Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 1:46 AM, Benoit
                                    Claise &lt;<a
                                      href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com"
                                      target="_blank"
                                      moz-do-not-send="true">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;
                                    wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  <blockquote
                                    style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                    #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Dear
                                        authors,<br>
                                        <br>
                                        See <a
                                          href="http://www.claise.be/IETFYANGPageCompilation.html"
                                          target="_blank"
                                          moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.claise.be/IETFYANGPageCompilation.html</a><br>
                                        Note: you can download the
                                        extracted YANG module on the web
                                        page, to make sure the line #
                                        are similar<br>
                                        <br>
                                        Regarding the pyang error:<o:p></o:p></p>
                                      <blockquote
                                        style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a
href="mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:220"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:220</a>:
                                          error: the 'yang-data'
                                          extension must have exactly
                                          one child that is a container<br>
                                          <a
                                            href="mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237</a>:
                                          error: the 'yang-data'
                                          extension must have exactly
                                          one child that is a container<o:p></o:p></p>
                                      </blockquote>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a
href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8040#section-8" target="_blank"
                                          moz-do-not-send="true">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8040#section-8</a><o:p></o:p></p>
                                      <blockquote
                                        style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                        <pre>It MUST contain data definition statements<o:p></o:p></pre>
                                        <pre>that result in exactly one container data node definition.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                                        <pre><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Â </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
                                        <pre style="margin-right:.5in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Â </span><o:p></o:p></pre>
                                        <pre><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5B9BD5">&lt;eric&gt; Yep, missed that, will fix.</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
                                        <pre>Â <o:p></o:p></pre>
                                      </blockquote>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Note
                                        that a similar issue (choice
                                        with yang-data) was discussed on
                                        the NETCONF mailing list.<br>
                                        See the "yang-data cannot encode
                                        a choice statement?" email
                                        thread.<br>
                                        <br>
                                        For the yumadum-pro errors, I'll
                                        let Andy investigate:<o:p></o:p></p>
                                      <blockquote
                                        style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Error:
                                          Got 'anydata', Expected: right
                                          brace<br>
                                          <a
                                            href="mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:227.5"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:227.5</a>:
                                          error(245): wrong token type<br>
                                          <br>
                                          Error: Got 'semicolon',
                                          Expected: body statement<br>
                                          <a
                                            href="mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:232.25"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:232.25</a>:
                                          error(245): wrong token type<br>
                                          <br>
                                          Error: Extra input after end
                                          of module starting on line 237<br>
                                          <a
                                            href="mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237.3"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237.3</a>:
                                          error(281): extra node<br>
                                          <br>
                                          *** <br>
                                          *** 3 Errors, 0 Warnings<o:p></o:p></p>
                                      </blockquote>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">The
                                      error handled code needs to be
                                      fixed so it is more clear that it
                                      is reporting the same error:<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â /*
                                      Message to a receiver containing
                                      one notification.*/<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                      rc:yang-data message {<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                      Â  container message-header {<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                      Â  Â  description<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                      Â  Â  Â  "delineates header info from
                                      content for easy parsing.";<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                      Â  Â  uses notification-header;<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                      Â  Â  uses message-header;<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                      Â  }<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                      Â  anydata notification-contents {<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                      Â  Â  description<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                      Â  Â  Â  "Non-header info of what
                                      actually got sent to receiver.Â 
                                      This<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                      Â  Â  Â  includes after any content
                                      based security filtering.Â  Need to<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                      Â  Â  Â  determine if/how it is
                                      viable not to include tag
                                      encapsulation<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                      Â  Â  Â  for this object.";<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                      Â  }<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                      }<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">IMO
                                      the entire special-case handling
                                      of yang-data should be redone.<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Comments
                                      on example above pushing yang-data
                                      past its intended usage:<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">1)
                                      The "message" parameter does not
                                      get used anywhere, ant it gives<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                      Â  people the impression they can
                                      declare duplicate siblings in the
                                      same namespace<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                      Â  Â rc:yang-data foo {<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                      Â  Â  Â container X;<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                      Â  Â }<o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                        Â  Â rc:yang-data bar {<o:p></o:p></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                        Â  Â  Â container X;<o:p></o:p></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                        Â  Â }<o:p></o:p></p>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">This
                                      is actually invalid because the
                                      assigned XML namespace is the same
                                      for both /X nodes.<o:p></o:p></p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Â </span><o:p></o:p></p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5B9BD5">&lt;eric&gt;
                                        In the case for
                                        notification-messages, there
                                        need not be the same top level
                                        nodes used for within a
                                        container.Â  But in general, I
                                        see how this could get confusing
                                        for other users of yang-data.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Â </span><o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </blockquote>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">The problem in this draft is
                        that the defined structures describe 2
                        consecutive containers,<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">which would be an invalid XML
                        representation.<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">So a compliant yang-data def
                        would be :<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">rc:yang-data message {<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">Â  container message {<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">Â  Â  Â container message-header
                        { ... }<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">Â  Â  Â anydata
                        notification-contents { ... }<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">Â  }<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">}<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">IMO YANG is mostly useless
                        for what you are trying to do here.<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">YANG has no substitutionGroup
                        like XSD.<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">You cannot say "place a node
                        with any name here, that matches the replacement
                        tag".<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">Instead YANG provides a named
                        container (notification-contents) and inside
                        that container<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">there is an arbitrary
                        subtree.<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">The simple mapping from
                        "child of &lt;notification&gt;" to "YANG
                        notification-stmt" seems to be missing.<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">Andy<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">Â  Â  Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
                      #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
                            1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">2)
                                      Using anydata as the notification
                                      contents hides the schema for the
                                      real notification.<o:p></o:p></p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5B9BD5">&lt;eric&gt;
                                        As there will be many
                                        notifications, and more will be
                                        added, I think this is a
                                        required part of a solution.Â  We
                                        need a level of indirection to
                                        pull in other elements of the
                                        schema.
                                      </span><o:p></o:p></p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Â </span><o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â 
                                      Â  How does a client know which
                                      'real' schema to apply to parse
                                      each specific event type?<o:p></o:p></p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5B9BD5">&lt;eric&gt;
                                        The namespace and message name
                                        are the first elements of after
                                        the header.Â  If that is not
                                        sufficient, we could pull these
                                        out as additional notification
                                        headers.Â  (That isnâ€™t shown
                                        now.)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5B9BD5">Â </span><o:p></o:p></p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5B9BD5">Eric</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <blockquote
                                    style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                    #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Regards,
                                        B.<o:p></o:p></p>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                </div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Andy<o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </blockquote>
                  </div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------921A11E47A0D6AEBF61E85C8--


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In-Reply-To: <7e58438a-117d-4b48-2ef5-3aec06a75a7a@cisco.com>
References: <045fb6c7-5bda-65e5-ff9e-3f207bea5d29@cisco.com> <CABCOCHS6drdnc-yCV2YUthJMSxr+RXWC6QZnRyowyXv+u_qRTw@mail.gmail.com> <a41d36254b2a4c52af4408535988942f@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <CABCOCHSvXgH_qp5sRC2+ikwJknKREoJWjoMKE1QRhJORzfYJUQ@mail.gmail.com> <d296fa40bb0646eaa30109aa6696edae@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <f0f70ded-5e21-639c-3a9a-cd2bb976257b@cisco.com> <b953bd4b3a694d5aac722e8029533189@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <7e58438a-117d-4b48-2ef5-3aec06a75a7a@cisco.com>
From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2017 09:40:39 -0700
Message-ID: <CABCOCHQaM1yMMUj6yOw_w_1XZjzmEFHGi7HKcnUBL+a_cVxbiQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
Cc: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>,  "draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org>,  NETCONF <netconf@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/QSgtvzeMsPZj9xrtBJICAKcc8VU>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages: YANG validation issues
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On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 9:04 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Eric,
>
> Hi Benoit,
>
>
>
> Per RFC7590 section 7.8.2, the list statement only needs a key when
> representing config data.  These elements in a notification/yang-data
> certainly aren=E2=80=99t traditional config data nodes.
>
>
>
> The immediate answer you might have is that we could require =E2=80=9Ccon=
fig
> false=E2=80=9D for containers under notifications or yang data.   But whe=
n I do
> that for this model, pyang gives me warnings.
>
> ietf-notification-messages@2017-10-04.yang:273: warning: explicit config
> statement is ignored
>
> So I don=E2=80=99t really want to upload a new version of this model that=
 gives
> this warning.
>
>
>
> I think that a more flexible answer would be that the test tool can safel=
y
> assume =E2=80=9Cconfig false=E2=80=9D for notifications or yang-data.  Th=
is should get rid
> of this class of yang errors.
>
> This one is for Andy's tool.
>


I will fix the tool so it does not think yang-data is config=3Dtrue.



>
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> P.S.: If you are including after-the-upload YANG error checking by
> yumadump-pro as part of compliance, is there any way we could make it par=
t
> of the during-the-upload validation?  This will help avoid unnecessary
> draft version churn.
>
> And this one is for Andy as well.
>


I will discuss this one off-line with you.



>
> Regards, Benoit
>
>
Andy


>
>
>
>
> *From:* Benoit Claise, October 4, 2017 8:35 AM
> *To:* Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com> <evoit@cisco.com>; Andy Bierman
> <andy@yumaworks.com> <andy@yumaworks.com>
> *Cc:* draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org; NETCONF
> <netconf@ietf.org> <netconf@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages: YANG validation
> issues
>
>
>
> Thanks Eric,
>
> One last error, reported by yumadump-pro
>
> Error: No key present for list 'notifications' on line 286
> ietf-notification-messages@2017-10-03.yang:301.7: error(272): data missin=
g
>
> ***
> *** 1 Errors, 0 Warnings
>
>
>   rc:yang-data bundled-message {
>     container bundled-message {
>       presence
>         "Indicates attempt to communicate notifications to a receiver.";
>       description
>         "Message to a receiver containing many bundled notifications";
>       container bundled-message-header {
>         description
>           "Header info for messages.";
>         uses message-header {
>           refine message-time {
>             mandatory true;
>           }
>         }
>         leaf notification-count {
>             type uint16;
>             description
>                 "Quantity of notification records in a bundled-message
>                 specific receiver.";
>         }
>       }
>       list notifications {
> <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D line 286
>         description
>           "Set of notifications to a receiver.";
>         container notification-header {
>           description
>             "Header info for each bundled notification.";
>           uses notification-header;
>         }
>         anydata notification-contents {
>           description
>             "Encapsultates objects following YANG's notification-stmt
>             grammar of RFC-7950 section 14.  Within are the notified
>             objects the publisher actually generated in order to be
>             passed to a receiver after all filtering has completed.";
>         }
>       }
>     }
>   }
>
> Regards, Benoit
>
> YANG Model embedded now matches Andy=E2=80=99s suggestions below on conta=
iner
> structure, other small tweaks embedded.  More to be done.  Compile has
> returned ok, clearing that issue.
>
>
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages-02.txt:
>
> xym 0.4:
>
> Extracting 'ietf-notification-messages.yang'
>
>
>
> ietf-notification-messages@2017-10-03.yang:
>
> pyang 1.7.3: pyang --verbose --ietf -p {libs} {model}:
>
> No validation errors
>
>
>
> yanglint 0.13.69: yanglint --verbose -p {rfclib} -p {draftlib} -p {tmplib=
}
> {model}:
>
> No validation errors
>
>
>
> *From:* Andy Bierman, October 3, 2017 1:11 PM
> *To:* Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com> <evoit@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* Benoit Claise (bclaise) <bclaise@cisco.com> <bclaise@cisco.com>;
> draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org; NETCONF
> <netconf@ietf.org> <netconf@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages: YANG validation
> issues
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 2:57 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com> wrote=
:
>
> Hi Andy,
>
> Hi Benoit,
>
>
>
> *From:* Andy Bierman, October 2, 2017 2:58 PM
>
> On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 1:46 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Dear authors,
>
> See http://www.claise.be/IETFYANGPageCompilation.html
> Note: you can download the extracted YANG module on the web page, to make
> sure the line # are similar
>
> Regarding the pyang error:
>
> ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:220: error: the 'yang-data'
> extension must have exactly one child that is a container
> ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237: error: the 'yang-data'
> extension must have exactly one child that is a container
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8040#section-8
>
> It MUST contain data definition statements
>
> that result in exactly one container data node definition.
>
>
>
>
>
> <eric> Yep, missed that, will fix.
>
>
>
> Note that a similar issue (choice with yang-data) was discussed on the
> NETCONF mailing list.
> See the "yang-data cannot encode a choice statement?" email thread.
>
> For the yumadum-pro errors, I'll let Andy investigate:
>
> Error: Got 'anydata', Expected: right brace
> ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:227.5: error(245): wrong token
> type
>
> Error: Got 'semicolon', Expected: body statement
> ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:232.25: error(245): wrong
> token type
>
> Error: Extra input after end of module starting on line 237
> ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237.3: error(281): extra node
>
> ***
> *** 3 Errors, 0 Warnings
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The error handled code needs to be fixed so it is more clear that it is
> reporting the same error:
>
>
>
>  /* Message to a receiver containing one notification.*/
>
>   rc:yang-data message {
>
>     container message-header {
>
>       description
>
>         "delineates header info from content for easy parsing.";
>
>       uses notification-header;
>
>       uses message-header;
>
>     }
>
>     anydata notification-contents {
>
>       description
>
>         "Non-header info of what actually got sent to receiver.  This
>
>         includes after any content based security filtering.  Need to
>
>         determine if/how it is viable not to include tag encapsulation
>
>         for this object.";
>
>     }
>
>   }
>
>
>
> IMO the entire special-case handling of yang-data should be redone.
>
> Comments on example above pushing yang-data past its intended usage:
>
>
>
> 1) The "message" parameter does not get used anywhere, ant it gives
>
>     people the impression they can declare duplicate siblings in the same
> namespace
>
>
>
>      rc:yang-data foo {
>
>        container X;
>
>      }
>
>
>
>      rc:yang-data bar {
>
>        container X;
>
>      }
>
>
>
> This is actually invalid because the assigned XML namespace is the same
> for both /X nodes.
>
>
>
> <eric> In the case for notification-messages, there need not be the same
> top level nodes used for within a container.  But in general, I see how
> this could get confusing for other users of yang-data.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The problem in this draft is that the defined structures describe 2
> consecutive containers,
>
> which would be an invalid XML representation.
>
>
>
> So a compliant yang-data def would be :
>
>
>
> rc:yang-data message {
>
>   container message {
>
>      container message-header { ... }
>
>      anydata notification-contents { ... }
>
>   }
>
> }
>
>
>
> IMO YANG is mostly useless for what you are trying to do here.
>
> YANG has no substitutionGroup like XSD.
>
> You cannot say "place a node with any name here, that matches the
> replacement tag".
>
> Instead YANG provides a named container (notification-contents) and insid=
e
> that container
>
> there is an arbitrary subtree.
>
>
>
> The simple mapping from "child of <notification>" to "YANG
> notification-stmt" seems to be missing.
>
>
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 2) Using anydata as the notification contents hides the schema for the
> real notification.
>
> <eric> As there will be many notifications, and more will be added, I
> think this is a required part of a solution.  We need a level of
> indirection to pull in other elements of the schema.
>
>
>
>     How does a client know which 'real' schema to apply to parse each
> specific event type?
>
> <eric> The namespace and message name are the first elements of after the
> header.  If that is not sufficient, we could pull these out as additional
> notification headers.  (That isn=E2=80=99t shown now.)
>
>
>
> Eric
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards, B.
>
>
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--94eb2c1a66649d98c6055abb44ba
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 9:04 AM, Benoit Claise <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <div class=3D"m_-3414493136344121634moz-cite-prefix">Hi Eric,<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
     =20
     =20
     =20
      <div class=3D"m_-3414493136344121634WordSection1">
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi
            Benoit,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></=
p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Per
            RFC7590 section 7.8.2, the list statement only needs a key
            when representing config data.=C2=A0 These elements in a
            notification/yang-data certainly aren=E2=80=99t traditional con=
fig
            data nodes.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></=
p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The
            immediate answer you might have is that we could require
            =E2=80=9Cconfig false=E2=80=9D for containers under notificatio=
ns or yang
            data.=C2=A0 =C2=A0But when I do that for this model, pyang give=
s me
            warnings.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#bfbfbf"><s=
pan style=3D"color:windowtext"><a class=3D"m_-3414493136344121634moz-txt-li=
nk-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-10-04.yang:2=
73" target=3D"_blank">ietf-notification-messages@<wbr>2017-10-04.yang:273</=
a>:
              warning: explicit config statement is ignored<u></u><u></u></=
span></span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">So
            I don=E2=80=99t really want to upload a new version of this mod=
el
            that gives this warning.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></=
p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I
            think that a more flexible answer would be that the test
            tool can safely assume =E2=80=9Cconfig false=E2=80=9D for notif=
ications or
            yang-data.=C2=A0 This should get rid of this class of yang
            errors.</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    This one is for Andy&#39;s tool.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><=
div><br></div><div>I will fix the tool so it does not think yang-data is co=
nfig=3Dtrue.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex"><div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div class=3D"m_-3414493136344121634WordSection1">
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></=
p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Eric<u></u><u></u></span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></=
p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">P.S.:
            If you are including after-the-upload YANG error checking by
            yumadump-pro as part of compliance, is there any way we
            could make it part of the during-the-upload validation?=C2=A0
            This will help avoid unnecessary draft version churn.</span></p=
>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    And this one is for Andy as well.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div><br></div><div>I will discuss this one off-line with you.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div text=3D"#00000=
0" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit<br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div class=3D"m_-3414493136344121634WordSection1">
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u></span></p></div></blo=
ckquote></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div>=C2=A0</div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><bl=
ockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"m_-3414493136344121634WordSection1"><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></=
p>
        <div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in =
0in 0in 4.0pt">
          <div>
            <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;paddin=
g:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><=
span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;c=
olor:windowtext">
                  Benoit Claise, October 4, 2017 8:35 AM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> Eric Voit (evoit) <a class=3D"m_-3414493136344=
121634moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:evoit@cisco.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">&lt;evoit@cisco.com&gt;</a>;
                  Andy Bierman <a class=3D"m_-3414493136344121634moz-txt-li=
nk-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;andy@=
yumaworks.com&gt;</a><br>
                  <b>Cc:</b>
                  <a class=3D"m_-3414493136344121634moz-txt-link-abbreviate=
d" href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-netconf-<wbr>notification-messages@ietf.org</a><wbr>=
;
                  NETCONF <a class=3D"m_-3414493136344121634moz-txt-link-rf=
c2396E" href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">&lt;netconf@ietf=
.org&gt;</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re:
                  draft-ietf-netconf-<wbr>notification-messages: YANG
                  validation issues<u></u><u></u></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks Eric,<br>
              <br>
              One last error, reported by yumadump-pro<br>
              <br>
              Error: No key present for list &#39;notifications&#39; on lin=
e 286<br>
              <a href=3D"mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-10-03.yang:=
301.7" target=3D"_blank">ietf-notification-messages@<wbr>2017-10-03.yang:30=
1.7</a>:
              error(272): data missing<br>
              <br>
              *** <br>
              *** 1 Errors, 0 Warnings<br>
              <br>
              <br>
              =C2=A0 rc:yang-data bundled-message {<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 container bundled-message {<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 presence<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;Indicates at=
tempt to communicate notifications to
              a receiver.&quot;;<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;Message to a=
 receiver containing many bundled
              notifications&quot;;<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 container bundled-message-head=
er {<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;=
Header info for messages.&quot;;<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 uses message-heade=
r {<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 refine=
 message-time {<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 mandatory true;<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf notification-=
count {<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 type uint16;<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 description<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;Quantity of notification records in a
              bundled-message<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 specific receiver.&quot;;<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 list notifications
              {=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &lt;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
              line 286<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;=
Set of notifications to a receiver.&quot;;<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 container notifica=
tion-header {<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 descri=
ption<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 &quot;Header info for each bundled notification.&quot;;<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 uses n=
otification-header;<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 anydata notificati=
on-contents {<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 descri=
ption<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 &quot;Encapsultates objects following YANG&#39;s
              notification-stmt<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 grammar of RFC-7950 section 14.=C2=A0 Within are
              the notified<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 objects the publisher actually generated in
              order to be<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 passed to a receiver after all filtering has
              completed.&quot;;<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<br>
              =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
              =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <br>
              =C2=A0 }<br>
              <br>
              Regards, Benoit<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">YANG
                Model embedded now matches Andy=E2=80=99s suggestions below=
 on
                container structure, other small tweaks embedded.=C2=A0 Mor=
e
                to be done.=C2=A0 Compile has returned ok, clearing that
                issue.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></=
u></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Eric</span><u></u><u></u>=
</p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.5pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#d9d9=
d9">draft-ietf-netconf-<wbr>notification-messages-02.txt:</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#d9d9=
d9">xym
                0.4:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#d9d9=
d9">Extracting
                &#39;ietf-notification-messages.<wbr>yang&#39;</span><u></u=
><u></u></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#d9d9=
d9">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#d9d9=
d9"><a href=3D"mailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-10-03.yang" target=3D=
"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#d9d9d9">ietf-notification-messages@<wbr>2017=
-10-03.yang</span></a>:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#d9d9=
d9">pyang
                1.7.3: pyang --verbose --ietf -p {libs} {model}:</span><u><=
/u><u></u></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#d9d9=
d9">No
                validation errors</span><u></u><u></u></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#d9d9=
d9">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#d9d9=
d9">yanglint
                0.13.69: yanglint --verbose -p {rfclib} -p {draftlib} -p
                {tmplib} {model}:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#d9d9=
d9">No
                validation errors</span><u></u><u></u></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></=
u></p>
            <div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:=
0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
              <div>
                <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;pa=
dding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D=
"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">
                      Andy Bierman, October 3, 2017 1:11 PM<br>
                      <b>To:</b> Eric Voit (evoit) <a href=3D"mailto:evoit@=
cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;evoit@cisco.com&gt;</a><br>
                      <b>Cc:</b> Benoit Claise (bclaise) <a href=3D"mailto:=
bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;bclaise@cisco.com&gt;</a>;
                      <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-netconf-notification-mes=
sages@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-netconf-<wbr>notification-mess=
ages@ietf.org</a><wbr>;
                      NETCONF
                      <a href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>&lt;netconf@ietf.org&gt;</a><br>
                      <b>Subject:</b> Re:
                      draft-ietf-netconf-<wbr>notification-messages: YANG
                      validation issues</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                </div>
              </div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
              <div>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
                  <div>
                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 2:57 PM,
                      Eric Voit (evoit) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:evoit@cisco.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">evoit@cisco.com</a>&gt;
                      wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
                    <blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #ccc=
ccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;marg=
in-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5b9bd5">Hi
                              Andy,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5b9bd5">Hi
                              Benoit,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></p>
                          <div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue =
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
                            <div>
                              <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e=
1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
                                <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bott=
om:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">
                                    Andy Bierman, October 2, 2017 2:58
                                    PM</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal">On
                                    Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 1:46 AM, Benoit
                                    Claise &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bclaise@ci=
sco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;
                                    wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
                                  <blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-l=
eft:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-=
top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                    <div>
                                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear
                                        authors,<br>
                                        <br>
                                        See <a href=3D"http://www.claise.be=
/IETFYANGPageCompilation.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.claise.be/<wbr>=
IETFYANGPageCompilation.html</a><br>
                                        Note: you can download the
                                        extracted YANG module on the web
                                        page, to make sure the line #
                                        are similar<br>
                                        <br>
                                        Regarding the pyang error:<u></u><u=
></u></p>
                                      <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt=
;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"m=
ailto:ietf-notification-messages@2017-09-28.yang:220" target=3D"_blank">iet=
f-notification-messages@<wbr>2017-09-28.yang:220</a>:
                                          error: the &#39;yang-data&#39;
                                          extension must have exactly
                                          one child that is a container<br>
                                          <a href=3D"mailto:ietf-notificati=
on-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237" target=3D"_blank">ietf-notification-messag=
es@<wbr>2017-09-28.yang:237</a>:
                                          error: the &#39;yang-data&#39;
                                          extension must have exactly
                                          one child that is a container<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
                                      </blockquote>
                                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8040#section-8" target=3D"_blank">https://tools=
.ietf.org/html/<wbr>rfc8040#section-8</a><u></u><u></u></p>
                                      <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt=
;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                        <pre>It MUST contain data definitio=
n statements<u></u><u></u></pre>
                                        <pre>that result in exactly one con=
tainer data node definition.<u></u><u></u></pre>
                                        <pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></=
pre>
                                        <pre style=3D"margin-right:.5in"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
                                        <pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5b9bd5">&lt;eric&gt; Ye=
p, missed that, will fix.</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
                                        <pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
                                      </blockquote>
                                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Note
                                        that a similar issue (choice
                                        with yang-data) was discussed on
                                        the NETCONF mailing list.<br>
                                        See the &quot;yang-data cannot enco=
de
                                        a choice statement?&quot; email
                                        thread.<br>
                                        <br>
                                        For the yumadum-pro errors, I&#39;l=
l
                                        let Andy investigate:<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
                                      <blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt=
;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Error:
                                          Got &#39;anydata&#39;, Expected: =
right
                                          brace<br>
                                          <a href=3D"mailto:ietf-notificati=
on-messages@2017-09-28.yang:227.5" target=3D"_blank">ietf-notification-mess=
ages@<wbr>2017-09-28.yang:227.5</a>:
                                          error(245): wrong token type<br>
                                          <br>
                                          Error: Got &#39;semicolon&#39;,
                                          Expected: body statement<br>
                                          <a href=3D"mailto:ietf-notificati=
on-messages@2017-09-28.yang:232.25" target=3D"_blank">ietf-notification-mes=
sages@<wbr>2017-09-28.yang:232.25</a>:
                                          error(245): wrong token type<br>
                                          <br>
                                          Error: Extra input after end
                                          of module starting on line 237<br=
>
                                          <a href=3D"mailto:ietf-notificati=
on-messages@2017-09-28.yang:237.3" target=3D"_blank">ietf-notification-mess=
ages@<wbr>2017-09-28.yang:237.3</a>:
                                          error(281): extra node<br>
                                          <br>
                                          *** <br>
                                          *** 3 Errors, 0 Warnings<u></u><u=
></u></p>
                                      </blockquote>
                                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><=
u></u></p>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">The
                                      error handled code needs to be
                                      fixed so it is more clear that it
                                      is reporting the same error:<u></u><u=
></u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0/*
                                      Message to a receiver containing
                                      one notification.*/<u></u><u></u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0
                                      rc:yang-data message {<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0
                                      =C2=A0 container message-header {<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0
                                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 description<u></u><u></=
u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0
                                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;delineates=
 header info from
                                      content for easy parsing.&quot;;<u></=
u><u></u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0
                                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 uses notification-heade=
r;<u></u><u></u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0
                                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 uses message-header;<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0
                                      =C2=A0 }<u></u><u></u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0
                                      =C2=A0 anydata notification-contents =
{<u></u><u></u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0
                                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 description<u></u><u></=
u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0
                                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;Non-header=
 info of what
                                      actually got sent to receiver.=C2=A0
                                      This<u></u><u></u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0
                                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 includes after a=
ny content
                                      based security filtering.=C2=A0 Need =
to<u></u><u></u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0
                                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 determine if/how=
 it is
                                      viable not to include tag
                                      encapsulation<u></u><u></u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0
                                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 for this object.=
&quot;;<u></u><u></u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0
                                      =C2=A0 }<u></u><u></u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0
                                      }<u></u><u></u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">IMO
                                      the entire special-case handling
                                      of yang-data should be redone.<u></u>=
<u></u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Comments
                                      on example above pushing yang-data
                                      past its intended usage:<u></u><u></u=
></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">1)
                                      The &quot;message&quot; parameter doe=
s not
                                      get used anywhere, ant it gives<u></u=
><u></u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0
                                      =C2=A0 people the impression they can
                                      declare duplicate siblings in the
                                      same namespace<u></u><u></u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0
                                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0rc:yang-data foo {<u></u=
><u></u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0
                                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0container X;<u></=
u><u></u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0
                                      =C2=A0 =C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0
                                        =C2=A0 =C2=A0rc:yang-data bar {<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0
                                        =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0container X;<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0
                                        =C2=A0 =C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></p>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">This
                                      is actually invalid because the
                                      assigned XML namespace is the same
                                      for both /X nodes.<u></u><u></u></p>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u=
></u><u></u></p>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5b9bd5">&=
lt;eric&gt;
                                        In the case for
                                        notification-messages, there
                                        need not be the same top level
                                        nodes used for within a
                                        container.=C2=A0 But in general, I
                                        see how this could get confusing
                                        for other users of yang-data.</span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u=
></u><u></u></p>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </blockquote>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">The problem in this draft is
                        that the defined structures describe 2
                        consecutive containers,<u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">which would be an invalid XML
                        representation.<u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">So a compliant yang-data def
                        would be :<u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">rc:yang-data message {<u></u><=
u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 container message {<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0container =
message-header
                        { ... }<u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0anydata
                        notification-contents { ... }<u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 }<u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">}<u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">IMO YANG is mostly useless
                        for what you are trying to do here.<u></u><u></u></=
p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">YANG has no substitutionGroup
                        like XSD.<u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">You cannot say &quot;place a n=
ode
                        with any name here, that matches the replacement
                        tag&quot;.<u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Instead YANG provides a named
                        container (notification-contents) and inside
                        that container<u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">there is an arbitrary
                        subtree.<u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">The simple mapping from
                        &quot;child of &lt;notification&gt;&quot; to &quot;=
YANG
                        notification-stmt&quot; seems to be missing.<u></u>=
<u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Andy<u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #ccc=
ccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;marg=
in-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue =
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">2)
                                      Using anydata as the notification
                                      contents hides the schema for the
                                      real notification.<u></u><u></u></p>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5b9bd5">&=
lt;eric&gt;
                                        As there will be many
                                        notifications, and more will be
                                        added, I think this is a
                                        required part of a solution.=C2=A0 =
We
                                        need a level of indirection to
                                        pull in other elements of the
                                        schema.
                                      </span><u></u><u></u></p>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u=
></u><u></u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0
                                      =C2=A0 How does a client know which
                                      &#39;real&#39; schema to apply to par=
se
                                      each specific event type?<u></u><u></=
u></p>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5b9bd5">&=
lt;eric&gt;
                                        The namespace and message name
                                        are the first elements of after
                                        the header.=C2=A0 If that is not
                                        sufficient, we could pull these
                                        out as additional notification
                                        headers.=C2=A0 (That isn=E2=80=99t =
shown
                                        now.)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5b9bd5">=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#5b9bd5">E=
ric</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-l=
eft:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-=
top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                    <div>
                                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,
                                        B.<u></u><u></u></p>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                </div>
                                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Andy<u></u><u></u></=
p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </blockquote>
                  </div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--94eb2c1a66649d98c6055abb44ba--


From nobody Wed Oct  4 09:58:47 2017
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Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2017 18:58:11 +0200 (CEST)
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From: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] WG LC for zerotouch
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Hi,

Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:
> Hi Martin,
> 
> I trimmed the discussion down to just the open threads.
> 
> 
> >> > o  Section 7.2
> >> >
> >> >  Adding custom query parameters like this breaks the normal YANG
> >> >  contract.  If I understand this correctly, the instance data tree
> >> >  presented to the client is supposed to change based on these query
> >> >  parameters.
> >> 
> >> Correct.  The idea is that the response could vary based on the input
> >> query params.  Of course, in case there was any doubt, the response 
> >> would always conform to same YANG schema.
> >
> >See below.
> >
> >> >  If you really need to have that functionality, it would better to
> >> >  model the device-specific data as an action; input would be the
> >> >  os-name, os-version etc, and output would be the
> >> >  zerotouch-information and voucher etc.
> >> 
> >> I thought of this as well, but didn't do anything about it as my 
> >> last message to the list said that we'd add "query parameters"
> >> and I wanted to follow through on that statement.
> >> 
> >> But what is the issue?  Is it primarily that using query params 
> >> on GET should be limited to returning different representations
> >> of a resource, and this use seems to be returning different 
> >> resources altogether?
> >
> > Yes, this is my concern.  A normal RESTCONF / YANG server has *one*
> > single instance of the operational state, and it just provides an API
> > to this data.  It can be filtered and pruned based on access rights,
> > but not modified from the outside based on query parameters.
> 
> I agree, it seems more proper.  Okay, let's make this change.  No
> objections from the WG, right?  As a heads-up for those following
> along, this change doesn't affect the essence of the solution, but
> the diff will appear somewhat big...
> 
> 
> >> FWIW, if we were to do this, we might also consider moving the 
> >> 'serial-number' field from the URL to an input field
> >
> > Hmm, did you mean 'unique-id'?
> 
> Yes. But what about the idea, moving 'unique-id' from the URL path
> to an input param?  Or, even more dramatically, we could remove 
> 'unique-id' altogether, relying instead on the RESTCONF username
> extracted from the DevID certificate?

See below.

> If relying on the extracted username, note that none of the 
> 'cert-to-name' identities defined in RFC 7407, which is also
> used in draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-client-server, would work.
> The 'common-name' identity is closest, but what is really needed
> is a combination of a 'serialNumber' attribute and an optional
> 'hardwareModuleName' attribute (not all DevID certs define it).

Ok.  I've tried to find a spec for the DevID, but couldn't find a
public version.

> I suppose that this is an issue for the afore-mentioned restconf
> client/server draft more so than this one though.  Still, since
> we're talking about it, assuming we did this, would that draft
> add said identities, or would a 7407bis be better?

I think that such an identitiy could be defined in this draft.  Isn't
such an identity quite specific to this use case?

> >> , and make
> >> a similar change to the 'update-progress' action.  But that then
> >> would mess up your NACM rule below.  Thoughts?
> >
> >We can have:
> >
> >  list device {
> >    key unique-id;
> >
> >    leaf unique-id { ... }
> >
> >    action get-bootstrapping-data {
> >      input {
> >        leaf os-name { ... }
> >        leaf os-version { ... }
> >        ...
> >      }
> >      output {
> >        leaf zerotouch-information { ... }
> >        leaf ownership-voucher { ... }
> >        leaf owner-certificate { ... }
> >      }
> >    }
> >
> >    action report-progress {  // I like this name better :)
> >      ...
> >    }
> >  }
> 
> Yes, this is roughly what switching to an action statement would look
> like though, pending on the above discussion, we may use top-level RPCs
> instead of actions, if relying on the RESTCONF username.
> 
> I agree, 'report-progress' does seem better.  It's a minor thing, but
> happy to oblige.  (no objections from the WG, right?)
> 
> 
> >> > o  Section 4.4
> >> >
> >> >     When a device is
> >> >     not able to trust a bootstrap server, it MUST NOT send its IDevID
> >> >     certificate in the form of a TLS client certificate
> >> >
> >> >  How will the server authenticate the client in this case?
> >> 
> >> The idea is that the server doesn't auth the client in this case.
> >> The goal behind not sending the IDevID certificate was so a rouge
> >> bootstrap server wouldn't be able to discover the device's serial
> >> number, which is why Appendix B suggests also masking the serial
> >> number the device sends in the URL.  That said, we might need to
> >> rethink this, especially in conjunction with your next comment.  
> >> (continued below)  
> >> 
> >> 
> >> >  I see that in section 7.3 you have:
> >> >
> >> >   Note that the bootstrap server MUST NOT process a progress update
> >> >   from a device without first authenticating the device.  This is in
> >> >   contrast to when a device is fetching data from the server, a read-
> >> >   only operation, in which case device authentication is not strictly
> >> >   required (e.g., when sending signed information).
> >> >
> >> >  But the server is a normal RESTCONF server, so it will follow
> >> >  section 2.5 of RFC 8040; it will require clients to be
> >> >  authenticated.
> >> 
> >> I was hoping that the draft could suppress this auth requirement
> >> for this specific "untrusted" interaction.  In essence, reducing
> >> the bootstrap server to a simple file server providing anonymous
> >> read-access.
> >> 
> >> But in the security analysis of things, it comes down to what's 
> >> more important to prevent:
> >>  a) a rogue server discovering a valid device's serial number,
> >>     while not being able to provide the device a response the
> >>     device can trust, or
> >>  b) a valid server giving signed redirect information to a
> >>     rogue device, where the information given doesn't provide
> >>     the device any more information than the device must have
> >>     already had to make the request in the first place, other
> >>     than a confirmation that indeed that serial number is one
> >>     that the server is expecting.  
> >> 
> >> Looking at it this way, (b) is more important to prevent and, 
> >> besides:
> >> 1) there is already a Security Consideration related to the use
> >>    of serial numbers in the solution, so (a) seems to be just
> >>    more of the same, 
> >> 2) rogue connections could play havoc with the server's logs, and
> >> 3) (to your point) it would be tricky business to define an
> >>    exception for the standard RESTCONF server to follow.
> >> 
> >> All this is to say that I think we should go back to the device
> >> always sending its IDevID cert and, of course, the server always
> >> authenticating the device.  But I also think that a device should
> >> continue NOT sending any other information (i.e. query params,
> >> progress updates, etc.), beyond its serial number & IDevID cert,
> >> until it can fully authenticate the server.
> >
> > Ok.
> 
> Okay, it seems that we agree.  Any objections from the WG?  In case it's
> unclear, this change is fairly significant from a solution-perspective.
> It will also have a non-trivial impact from a draft-diff perspective.
> Please chime in now with any opinions now.
> 
>  
> >> > o  Section 5.6
> >> >
> >> >     Upon rebooting, the device MUST still be
> >> >     in its initial state, causing the bootstrapping process to run again,
> >> >     which will eventually come to this very point,
> >> >
> >> >  Why this MUST?  What if the new boot image contains other factory
> >> >  defaults that does not enable ZTP, would that be illegal?
> >> >
> >> >  I would think that implementations are free to do whatever they want
> >> >  in case of errors.
> >> 
> >> Maybe not *illegal*, but it would certainly brick the device at that
> >> point.  Would just reducing the "MUST" to a "must" suffice, or should
> >> we add a qualifier along the lines of "in order for the solution to
> >> work..." ?
> >
> > I would just say something like 
> >
> >     Upon rebooting, if the new image also enables zerotouch, the
> >     device will still be
> >     in its initial state, causing the bootstrapping process to run again,
> >     which will eventually come to this very point,
> 
> Okay.
> 
> 
> >> >    In the case of errors, the device MUST reset
> >> >    itself in such a way that forces a reinstallation of the boot image,
> >> >    thereby wiping out any bad state the script may have left behind.
> >> >
> >> >  Is this also required?  Why can't stop and wait for manual
> >> >  intervention be allowed?
> >> 
> >> It could, but again, it would brick the device.  Same question as above,
> >> would reducing the "MUST" to a "must" suffice, or should we add a 
> >> qualifier along the lines of "in order for the solution to work..." ?
> >
> > Well, this depends if the error is transient or not.  If it is not
> > transient, it will just happen again and again.
> 
> Maybe, maybe not.  The device could potentially land onto another/different
> source of bootstrapping data that works the next go around.  The hope is
> that the device keeps trying (and posting progress-updates regarding its
> errors) ad infinitum until things eventually clear up.  For instance, an
> admin eventually takes notice and administers corrective action.

Ok.

> > I don't have a strong opinion, but I would probably be silent about
> > what to do in case of these kinds of errors.  Leave that to the
> > implementation to figure out.
> 
> I feel that it's critical that manual intervention is never required.
> Yes, a manual step could be employed, but it should be a rare step.  I
> think it's best to say something along these lines.  I'll try to state
> this more clearly.

Ok.

> >> >  I suggest you shorten the lines of the examples even more, so that
> >> >  the examples are properly indented in the draft (they are currently
> >> >  outdented)
> >> 
> >> It's hard to make the lines much shorter with the URN being so long.
> >> Options are 1) don't indent just the xmlns line or 2) move from two-
> >> space indent to single-space indent.  Do you have a preference?
> >
> > In the second example you use (1).  You can also use "\", which you
> > are also already using.
> 
> So I do, albeit only in the HTTP-header parts, not the HTTP-body parts.
> 
> FWIW, my build-script inserts source files in situ as directed by
> processing instructions. I can modify the build-script to do the 
> auto-'\' insertion logic on some column-boundary, but it may need
> a complimentary update on the extraction tools.  Do we need some 
> sort of standard around this?
> 
> I'm aware that here you're only talking about examples, which 
> currently are not extracted via tools, but the same auto-'\' 
> insertion logic could also help with the YANG modules, as they
> could become unwieldy too...though I suppose liberal use of 
> groupings could always be employed to keep line-lengths in
> check.  Okay, but still, a YANG Doctors discussion at IETF 99
> suggested introducing the ability to auto-extract and validate
> examples in drafts too, to automate as much of the YD review
> process as possible, so still I think there may be a need for
> a '\' standard of some sort here.  Thoguhts?
> 
> 
> 
> > I just found another outdented figure in section 5.3, which probably
> > is easier to fix.
> 
> Huh?  I don't see it.  The figure in 5.3 looks okay to me...

Yes, my bad.  I think I meant 5.2.


> >> > o  Section 9
> >> >
> >> >  Should you also mention that /device list should be protected by
> >> >  nacm rules?
> >> 
> >> Yes, indeed, I left out the standard security template for the bootstrap
> >> server YANG module.  Will add.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> >  If the RESTCONF user name is the device's unique-id, then a single
> >> >  NACM rule can be used:
> >> >
> >> >       <rule>
> >> >         <name>allow-device</name>
> >> >         <path xmlns:ztbs="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:yang:\ietf-zerotouch-bootstrap-server">
> >> >           /ztbs:device[ztbs:unique-id=$USER]
> >> >         </path>
> >> >         <access-operations>read</access-operations>
> >> >         <action>permit</action>
> >> >       </rule>
> >> 
> >> Yes, but would you expect this to appear in the draft?  Typically, the specific
> >> NACM rule syntax is left as an exercise to the reader...
> >
> > In order to do this, the "username" must be the same as the
> > "unique-id".  This requires the client cert to be constructed
> > properly.
> 
> Agreed.  In this case, the client cert is a DevID cert, and  802.1AR 
> governs its construction.  Not too many options there.  Of course, 
> the mapping of said cert to username is being discussed above wrt the
> cert-to-name mapping logic... 
> 
> 
> >> Since the NACM rule is not obvious, and due to the cert implications,
> >> I think it would be very helpful with an appendix that describes how
> >> this can be set up.
> 
> I think that this will depend on if we go with an action or a top-level 
> RPC. If an action, then NACM may have a place and an example may help.
> But, if using a top-level RPC, then it seems that the server has no 
> option but to auth the DevID cert and provide a RESTCONF username-specific
> response - NACM can't constrain it any further, right?

Correct.

> (note: this seems
> more secure to me - I like it)

Hmm, I think it is less clear.  With an explicit list and actions, you
can use NACM to do the access control.  With top-level RPCs, the
implementation of the RPC has to do the access control.

Also, a list of devices is more transparent - I mean, this list must
somehow exist anyway, but with top-level RPCs it will be hidden.
Maybe implementations want to add additional objects to this list, for
monitoring or something.

> >> > o  Other comment
> >> >
> >> >  Is it assumed that there will be a vendor-specific YANG module to
> >> >  enable the zero-touch process?  Did you consider an
> >> >  ietf-zerotouch-device module for this purpose?  Such a configuration
> >> >  must be carefully designed to allow for a "merge" configuration file
> >> >  to actually disable the zero touch process.
> >> 
> >> It is assumed to be vendor-specific currently.  I have not thought to
> >> define a ietf-zerotouch-device module as of yet that, presumably, would
> >> contain a boolean or an enum (but not a p-container) for enabling the
> >> service.  Do you think we should add such a module to the draft, or just
> >> put a note somewhere about it?
> >
> > I don't have a strong opinion, but if there's not a standard module
> > for this, the text should mention that it is assumed that vendors
> > define this themselves.   Hmm, I think I would prefer a standard
> > module; it would make the solution more complete.
> 
> We can add a module, but maybe it should be called something like
> ietf-zerotouch-bootstrap-client, to mirror the ietf-zerotouch-
> bootstrap-server module? - though this may be a mismatch as the
> former regards a southbound protocol and the latter regards a
> configuration model...
> 
> Maybe we can discuss what would be in this model.  I'm not sure if
> I'm oversimplifying it, but I think the module might be just a single
> config true leaf called something like "enabled".   There might also
> be some config false leafs for the stuff mentioned in section 5.1, 
> though it doing so is not so important since the bootstrapping only
> occurs once (not ongoing management).  So a module would primarily
> be for the "enabled" leaf.  Anything else?  Still think it's worth it?

I'm not sure.  It does seem odd to write that we expect vendors to
provide this single leaf in a proprietary module, but maybe it is ok.



/martin


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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
CC: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] WG LC for zerotouch
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] WG LC for zerotouch
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From nobody Thu Oct  5 01:13:42 2017
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From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
To: NETCONF <netconf@ietf.org>
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Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2017 10:13:14 +0200
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Subject: [Netconf] AD review of draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05
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Dear all,

Here is my AD review for draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.

There are no YANG module dependencies to publish this document:
https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules[]=ietf-netconf-acm 
=> select "Dependencies only"
The YANG module validates correctly:
https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.php?module=ietf-netconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang
No more issues:
 Â Â Â  https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis
The diffs with RFC 6536 are minor.
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=https://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6536.txt&url2=https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.txt

Very good so far.

There are however two issues:
- You should either remove NETCONF or add RESTCONF to the document title.
- Update the Security Considerations based on the new template.

Editorial:
This document thought of the NMDA/revised datastore architecture 
[I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores>]. 
After all, it's a normative reference ... just for the definition. 
However, I don't clearly see this message. Should we clearly mention 
that point in section 2.4 or section 3.2/3.2.1.
For example:

    The same access control rules apply to all datastores that support
    NACM, for example, the candidate configuration datastore or the
    running configuration datastore.

NEW:

    The same access control rules apply to all datastores that support
    NACM, including the ones following the Network Management Datastore
    Architecture [I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores>], for example ...

Regards, Benoit

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<html>
  <head>

    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
  </head>
  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    Dear all,<br>
    <br>
    Here is my AD review for draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.<br>
    <br>
    There are no YANG module dependencies to publish this document:<br>
    Â Â Â 
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules">https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules</a>[]=ietf-netconf-acm
    =&gt; select "Dependencies only"<br>
    The YANG module validates correctly:<br>
    Â Â Â 
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.php?module=ietf-netconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang">https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.php?module=ietf-netconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang</a><br>
    No more issues:<br>
    Â Â Â  <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis">https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis</a><br>
    The diffs with RFC 6536 are minor.<br>
    Â Â Â 
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=https://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6536.txt&amp;url2=https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.txt">http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=https://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6536.txt&amp;url2=https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.txt</a><br>
    <br>
    Very good so far.<br>
    <br>
    There are however two issues:<br>
    - You should either remove NETCONF or add RESTCONF to the document
    title.<br>
    - Update the Security Considerations based on the new template.<br>
    <br>
    Editorial:<br>
    This document thought of the NMDA/revised datastore architecture [<a
href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores">I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores</a>].
    After all, it's a normative reference ... just for the definition.
    However, I don't clearly see this message. Should we clearly mention
    that point in section 2.4 or section 3.2/3.2.1. <br>
    For example: <br>
    <pre class="newpage">   The same access control rules apply to all datastores that support
   NACM, for example, the candidate configuration datastore or the
   running configuration datastore.</pre>
    NEW:<br>
    <pre class="newpage">   The same access control rules apply to all datastores that support
   NACM, including the ones following the Network Management Datastore
   Architecture [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores">I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores</a>], for example ... 

</pre>
    Regards, Benoit<br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------85D9456F093EB1FA279AB9CE--


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From: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" <timjenki@cisco.com>
To: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-05: receiver configuration
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--_000_23F633DFB2334545BB7F327A54413209ciscocom_--


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Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2017 22:18:06 +0000 (UTC)
From: Alexander Clemm <ludwig@clemm.org>
To: Yingzhen Qu <yingzhen.qu@huawei.com>, Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, netconf@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] New Version Notification for draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt
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------=_Part_2247_2093691119.1507241886393
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,





We have just posted a new draft entitled =E2=80=9CDiscrepancy detection bet=
ween NMDA datastores=E2=80=9D.=20





This draft defines a capability that allows to report discrepancies between=
 management datastores that comply with the NMDA architecture. For this pur=
pose, the draft introduces a new RPC that is defined as part of a YANG data=
 model. We=C2=A0anticipate that this capability will be useful in a variety=
 of scenarios, specifically to detect situations in which data does not pro=
pagate between datastores (e.g. <intended> and <operational>) the way it sh=
ould.=C2=A0





Please let us know your feedback. We hope that we can interest the working =
group to adopt it as a work item.=C2=A0





We submitted the draft to netconf, since at the core is a new RPC, i.e. an =
operation that you might request via Netconf or Restconf. It does define a =
YANG data model and the context is NMDA; in that sense netmod might be an a=
lternative=C2=A0landing target.=C2=A0




Thanks





--- Alex, Yingzhen, Jeff







From: internet-drafts@ietf.org


Sent: Thursday, October 5, 3:02 PM


Subject: New Version Notification for draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt


To: Yingzhen Qu, Alexander Clemm, Jeff Tantsura






A new version of I-D, draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt has been success=
fully submitted by Alexander Clemm and posted to the IETF repository. Name:=
=09=09draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff Revision:=0900 Title:=09=09Discrepancy =
detection between NMDA datastores Document date:=092017-10-05 Group:=09=09I=
ndividual Submission Pages:=09=0910 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-draf=
ts/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.or=
g/doc/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc=
/html/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00 Abstract: This document defines a ca=
pability that allows to report discrepancies between management datastores =
in Netconf or Restconf servers that comply with the NMDA architecture. The =
capability is based on a set of RPCs that are defined as part of a YANG dat=
a model and that are intended to be used in conjunction with Netconf and Re=
stconf. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of s=
ubmission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.o=
rg. The IETF Secretariat=20





------=_Part_2247_2093691119.1507241886393
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div align=3D"left" align=3D"left"  ><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: =
ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color=
: black; background-color: white;">Hi,<br>
</div>
</div><div align=3D"left"  ><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; marg=
in: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; =
background-color: white;"><br>
</div>
</div><div align=3D"left" align=3D"left"  ><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direc=
tion: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;=
 color: black; background-color: white;">We have just posted a new draft en=
titled &#8220;Discrepancy detection between NMDA datastores&#8221;. <br>
</div>
</div><div align=3D"left"  ><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; marg=
in: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; =
background-color: white;"><br>
</div>
</div><div align=3D"left"  ><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; marg=
in: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; =
background-color: white;">This draft defines a capability that allows to re=
port discrepancies between management datastores that comply with the NMDA =
architecture. For this purpose, the draft introduces a new RPC that is defi=
ned as part of a YANG data model. We&#160;anticipate that this capability w=
ill be useful in a variety of scenarios, specifically to detect situations =
in which data does not propagate between datastores (e.g. &lt;intended&gt; =
and &lt;operational&gt;) the way it should.&#160;<br>
</div>
</div><div align=3D"left"  ><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; marg=
in: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; =
background-color: white;"><br>
</div>
</div><div align=3D"left" align=3D"left"  ><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direc=
tion: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;=
 color: black; background-color: white;">Please let us know your feedback. =
We hope that we can interest the working group to adopt it as a work item.&=
#160;<br>
</div>
</div><div align=3D"left"  ><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; marg=
in: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; =
background-color: white;"><br>
</div>
</div><div align=3D"left" align=3D"left"  ><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direc=
tion: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;=
 color: black; background-color: white;">We submitted the draft to netconf,=
 since at the core is a new RPC, i.e. an operation that you might request v=
ia Netconf or Restconf. It does define a YANG data model and the context is=
 NMDA; in that sense netmod might be an alternative&#160;landing target.&#1=
60;<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-fami=
ly: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-color: white;">Th=
anks<br>
</div>
</div><div align=3D"left"  ><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; marg=
in: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; =
background-color: white;"><br>
</div>
</div><div align=3D"left" align=3D"left" align=3D"left"  ><div dir=3D"auto"=
 style=3D"direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; f=
ont-size: 11pt; color: black; background-color: white;">--- Alex, Yingzhen,=
 Jeff<br>
</div>
</div><div align=3D"left"  ><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; marg=
in: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; =
background-color: white;"><br>
<br>
</div>
</div><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; fon=
t-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-color: whit=
e;">From: internet-drafts@ietf.org<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-fami=
ly: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-color: white;">Se=
nt: Thursday, October 5, 3:02 PM<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-fami=
ly: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-color: white;">Su=
bject: New Version Notification for draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt<br=
>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-fami=
ly: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-color: white;">To=
: Yingzhen Qu, Alexander Clemm, Jeff Tantsura<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-fami=
ly: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-color: white;">A =
new version of I-D, draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt has been successfu=
lly submitted by Alexander Clemm and posted to the IETF repository. Name:&#=
9;&#9;draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff Revision:&#9;00 Title:&#9;&#9;Discrepan=
cy detection between NMDA datastores Document date:&#9;2017-10-05 Group:&#9=
;&#9;Individual Submission Pages:&#9;&#9;10 URL: https://www.ietf.org/inter=
net-drafts/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt Status: https://datatracker=
.ietf.org/doc/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.o=
rg/html/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf=
.org/doc/html/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00 Abstract: This document defi=
nes a capability that allows to report discrepancies between management dat=
astores in Netconf or Restconf servers that comply with the NMDA architectu=
re. The capability is based on a set of RPCs that are defined as part of a =
YANG data model and that are intended to be used in conjunction with Netcon=
f and Restconf. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the t=
ime of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tool=
s.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat <br>
<br>
</div>

------=_Part_2247_2093691119.1507241886393--


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" <timjenki@cisco.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-05: receiver configuration
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Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2017 22:45:38 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-05: receiver configuration
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From: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" <timjenki@cisco.com>
To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-05: receiver configuration
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Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2017 23:00:32 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-05: receiver configuration
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From: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>
To: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" <timjenki@cisco.com>, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-05: receiver configuration
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From: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" <timjenki@cisco.com>
To: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-05: receiver configuration
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Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2017 13:07:56 +0000
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References: <23F633DF-B233-4545-BB7F-327A54413209@cisco.com> <09db3dfadd664a62b4965501d10ccb44@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <7916810F-84FF-4404-AEE3-CE6042083452@cisco.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0EAA7A73@sjceml521-mbx.china.huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-05: receiver configuration
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] AD review of draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05
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Dear all,

Investigating further, one more point.

       3.2.2
        <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#section-3.2.2>.
        Access Rights



    A small set of hard-wired datastore access rights is needed to
    control access to all possible NETCONF protocol operations, including
    vendor extensions to the standard protocol operation set.

    The "CRUDX" model can support all NETCONF protocol operations:

    o  Create: allows the client to add a new data node instance to a
       datastore.

    o  Read: allows the client to read a data node instance from a
       datastore or receive the notification event type.

    o  Update: allows the client to update an existing data node instance
       in a datastore.

    o  Delete: allows the client to delete a data node instance from a
       datastore.

    o  eXec: allows the client to execute the operation.


What is the link with RESTCONF?
I guess I don't understand (the idea behind) this section.

Regards, Benoit
> Dear all,
>
> Here is my AD review for draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.
>
> There are no YANG module dependencies to publish this document:
> https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules[]=ietf-netconf-acm 
> => select "Dependencies only"
> The YANG module validates correctly:
> https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.php?module=ietf-netconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang
> No more issues:
> https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis
> The diffs with RFC 6536 are minor.
> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=https://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6536.txt&url2=https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.txt
>
> Very good so far.
>
> There are however two issues:
> - You should either remove NETCONF or add RESTCONF to the document title.
> - Update the Security Considerations based on the new template.
>
> Editorial:
> This document thought of the NMDA/revised datastore architecture 
> [I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores>]. 
> After all, it's a normative reference ... just for the definition. 
> However, I don't clearly see this message. Should we clearly mention 
> that point in section 2.4 or section 3.2/3.2.1.
> For example:
>     The same access control rules apply to all datastores that support
>     NACM, for example, the candidate configuration datastore or the
>     running configuration datastore.
> NEW:
>     The same access control rules apply to all datastores that support
>     NACM, including the ones following the Network Management Datastore
>     Architecture [I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores>], for example ...
>
> Regards, Benoit
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear all,<br>
      <br>
      Investigating further, one more point.<br>
      <pre wrap="">      3.2.2
       <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#section-3.2.2">&lt;https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#section-3.2.2&gt;</a>.
       Access Rights



   A small set of hard-wired datastore access rights is needed to
   control access to all possible NETCONF protocol operations, including
   vendor extensions to the standard protocol operation set.

   The "CRUDX" model can support all NETCONF protocol operations:

   o  Create: allows the client to add a new data node instance to a
      datastore.

   o  Read: allows the client to read a data node instance from a
      datastore or receive the notification event type.

   o  Update: allows the client to update an existing data node instance
      in a datastore.

   o  Delete: allows the client to delete a data node instance from a
      datastore.

   o  eXec: allows the client to execute the operation.


</pre>
    </div>
    What is the link with RESTCONF?<br>
    I guess I don't understand (the idea behind) this section.<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:4b988ee4-3787-9616-bbd5-3de6b9f82f70@cisco.com">Dear
      all,<br>
      <br>
      Here is my AD review for draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.<br>
      <br>
      There are no YANG module dependencies to publish this document:<br>
      Â Â Â 
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules"
        moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules</a>[]=ietf-netconf-acm
      =&gt; select "Dependencies only"<br>
      The YANG module validates correctly:<br>
      Â Â Â 
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.php?module=ietf-netconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang"
        moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.php?module=ietf-netconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang</a><br>
      No more issues:<br>
      Â Â Â  <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
        href="https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis"
        moz-do-not-send="true">https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis</a><br>
      The diffs with RFC 6536 are minor.<br>
      Â Â Â 
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=https://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6536.txt&amp;url2=https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.txt"
        moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=https://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6536.txt&amp;url2=https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.txt</a><br>
      <br>
      Very good so far.<br>
      <br>
      There are however two issues:<br>
      - You should either remove NETCONF or add RESTCONF to the document
      title.<br>
      - Update the Security Considerations based on the new template.<br>
      <br>
      Editorial:<br>
      This document thought of the NMDA/revised datastore architecture [<a
href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores"
        moz-do-not-send="true">I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores</a>].
      After all, it's a normative reference ... just for the definition.
      However, I don't clearly see this message. Should we clearly
      mention that point in section 2.4 or section 3.2/3.2.1. <br>
      For example: <br>
      <pre class="newpage">   The same access control rules apply to all datastores that support
   NACM, for example, the candidate configuration datastore or the
   running configuration datastore.</pre>
      NEW:<br>
      <pre class="newpage">   The same access control rules apply to all datastores that support
   NACM, including the ones following the Network Management Datastore
   Architecture [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores" moz-do-not-send="true">I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores</a>], for example ... 

</pre>
      Regards, Benoit<br>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
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To: Alexander Clemm <ludwig@clemm.org>, Yingzhen Qu <yingzhen.qu@huawei.com>,  Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, netconf@ietf.org
References: <150724091977.3110.4477669628188959264.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <577BC96F8F78E1C3.ffe19915-c95a-4052-826c-30482b244985@mail.outlook.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] New Version Notification for draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt
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Hi,

I've (quickly) read through this draft, some brief thought/comments below.

I think that the basic idea is reasonable, and likely to be useful, 
although it may need some tweaks.

Some of the introduction descriptive text isn't quite right: E.g. if 
<running> is changed then <intended> must reflect that change 
immediately.Â  I.e. a client shouldn't be able to see an change to 
<running> that hasn't yet been reflected in <intended>.Â Â  Of course you 
would expect to see any differences due to inactive config and template 
expansions between the two.Â  Also, the applied configuration will only 
be represented in <operational>, never <intended>.

I don't agree with the idea of detecting "fleeting" changes or the 
associated dampening option.Â  I think that this would potentially be a 
lot more complicated and expensive for a device to have to check. 
Instead, I would make the operation semantically the same as if the 
client performed the comparison directly.

At the moment, the compare operation probably only makes sense between 
<intended> and <operational>, particularly if there is any templating or 
inactive configuration that has come into play.

There may also be others reasons why the value in <operational> doesn't 
match <intended> even though the configuration has been successfully 
applied.Â  E.g. system created objects, IP addresses learned through 
DHCP, timer values learned via a protocol interaction from a designated 
master node that overrides any configured value, bugs, etc.Â  The origin 
metadata information is designed to help in these scenarios because the 
origin would have to be something other than "intended" in all of these 
scenarios.Â  So, having the option to include the origin annotations may 
be useful.

In summary, I think that this means that the system can answer the 
following two questions:
1) Which nodes in the intended configuration have not been reflected 
with the same value in <operational>?
2) Which nodes in <operational> with a origin <intended> don't exist in 
<intended>?

These questions are similar to asking what configuration has not been 
applied, or not removed, but the questions have been weakened to reflect 
what is actually externally deducible by comparing the intended and 
operational datastores.

Thanks,
Rob


On 05/10/2017 23:18, Alexander Clemm wrote:
> Hi,
>
> We have just posted a new draft entitled â€œDiscrepancy detection 
> between NMDA datastoresâ€.
>
> This draft defines a capability that allows to report discrepancies 
> between management datastores that comply with the NMDA architecture. 
> For this purpose, the draft introduces a new RPC that is defined as 
> part of a YANG data model. WeÂ anticipate that this capability will be 
> useful in a variety of scenarios, specifically to detect situations in 
> which data does not propagate between datastores (e.g. <intended> and 
> <operational>) the way it should.
>
> Please let us know your feedback. We hope that we can interest the 
> working group to adopt it as a work item.
>
> We submitted the draft to netconf, since at the core is a new RPC, 
> i.e. an operation that you might request via Netconf or Restconf. It 
> does define a YANG data model and the context is NMDA; in that sense 
> netmod might be an alternativeÂ landing target.
>
> Thanks
>
> --- Alex, Yingzhen, Jeff
>
>
> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: Thursday, October 5, 3:02 PM
> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt
> To: Yingzhen Qu, Alexander Clemm, Jeff Tantsura
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt has been 
> successfully submitted by Alexander Clemm and posted to the IETF 
> repository. Name: draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff Revision: 00 Title: 
> Discrepancy detection between NMDA datastores Document date: 
> 2017-10-05 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 10 URL: 
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt 
> Status: 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff/ 
> Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00 
> Htmlized: 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00 
> Abstract: This document defines a capability that allows to report 
> discrepancies between management datastores in Netconf or Restconf 
> servers that comply with the NMDA architecture. The capability is 
> based on a set of RPCs that are defined as part of a YANG data model 
> and that are intended to be used in conjunction with Netconf and 
> Restconf. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the 
> time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available 
> at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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    <p>Hi,</p>
    <p>I've (quickly) read through this draft, some brief
      thought/comments below.</p>
    <p>I think that the basic idea is reasonable, and likely to be
      useful, although it may need some tweaks.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Some of the introduction descriptive text isn't quite right: E.g.
      if &lt;running&gt; is changed then &lt;intended&gt; must reflect
      that change immediately.Â  I.e. a client shouldn't be able to see
      an change to &lt;running&gt; that hasn't yet been reflected in
      &lt;intended&gt;.Â Â  Of course you would expect to see any
      differences due to inactive config and template expansions between
      the two.Â  Also, the applied configuration will only be represented
      in &lt;operational&gt;, never &lt;intended&gt;.<br>
    </p>
    I don't agree with the idea of detecting "fleeting" changes or the
    associated dampening option.Â  I think that this would potentially be
    a lot more complicated and expensive for a device to have to check.Â 
    Instead, I would make the operation semantically the same as if the
    client performed the comparison directly.<br>
    <br>
    At the moment, the compare operation probably only makes sense
    between &lt;intended&gt; and &lt;operational&gt;, particularly if
    there is any templating or inactive configuration that has come into
    play.<br>
    <br>
    There may also be others reasons why the value in
    &lt;operational&gt; doesn't match &lt;intended&gt; even though the
    configuration has been successfully applied.Â  E.g. system created
    objects, IP addresses learned through DHCP, timer values learned via
    a protocol interaction from a designated master node that overrides
    any configured value, bugs, etc.Â  The origin metadata information is
    designed to help in these scenarios because the origin would have to
    be something other than "intended" in all of these scenarios.Â  So,
    having the option to include the origin annotations may be useful.<br>
    <br>
    In summary, I think that this means that the system can answer the
    following two questions:<br>
    1) Which nodes in the intended configuration have not been reflected
    with the same value in &lt;operational&gt;?<br>
    2) Which nodes in &lt;operational&gt; with a origin &lt;intended&gt;
    don't exist in &lt;intended&gt;?<br>
    <br>
    These questions are similar to asking what configuration has not
    been applied, or not removed, but the questions have been weakened
    to reflect what is actually externally deducible by comparing the
    intended and operational datastores.<br>
    <br>
    Thanks,<br>
    Rob<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 05/10/2017 23:18, Alexander Clemm
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:577BC96F8F78E1C3.ffe19915-c95a-4052-826c-30482b244985@mail.outlook.com">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
      <div align="left">
        <div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0;
          font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black;
          background-color: white;">Hi,<br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div align="left">
        <div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0;
          font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black;
          background-color: white;"><br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div align="left">
        <div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0;
          font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black;
          background-color: white;">We have just posted a new draft
          entitled â€œDiscrepancy detection between NMDA datastoresâ€. <br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div align="left">
        <div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0;
          font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black;
          background-color: white;"><br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div align="left">
        <div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0;
          font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black;
          background-color: white;">This draft defines a capability that
          allows to report discrepancies between management datastores
          that comply with the NMDA architecture. For this purpose, the
          draft introduces a new RPC that is defined as part of a YANG
          data model. WeÂ anticipate that this capability will be useful
          in a variety of scenarios, specifically to detect situations
          in which data does not propagate between datastores (e.g.
          &lt;intended&gt; and &lt;operational&gt;) the way it should.Â <br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div align="left">
        <div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0;
          font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black;
          background-color: white;"><br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div align="left">
        <div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0;
          font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black;
          background-color: white;">Please let us know your feedback. We
          hope that we can interest the working group to adopt it as a
          work item.Â <br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div align="left">
        <div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0;
          font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black;
          background-color: white;"><br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div align="left">
        <div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0;
          font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black;
          background-color: white;">We submitted the draft to netconf,
          since at the core is a new RPC, i.e. an operation that you
          might request via Netconf or Restconf. It does define a YANG
          data model and the context is NMDA; in that sense netmod might
          be an alternativeÂ landing target.Â <br>
          <br>
        </div>
        <div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0;
          font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black;
          background-color: white;">Thanks<br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div align="left">
        <div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0;
          font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black;
          background-color: white;"><br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div align="left">
        <div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0;
          font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black;
          background-color: white;">--- Alex, Yingzhen, Jeff<br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div align="left">
        <div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0;
          font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black;
          background-color: white;"><br>
          <br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0;
        font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black;
        background-color: white;">From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br>
      </div>
      <div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0;
        font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black;
        background-color: white;">Sent: Thursday, October 5, 3:02 PM<br>
      </div>
      <div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0;
        font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black;
        background-color: white;">Subject: New Version Notification for
        draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt<br>
      </div>
      <div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0;
        font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black;
        background-color: white;">To: Yingzhen Qu, Alexander Clemm, Jeff
        Tantsura<br>
        <br>
        <br>
      </div>
      <div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0;
        font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black;
        background-color: white;">A new version of I-D,
        draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt has been successfully
        submitted by Alexander Clemm and posted to the IETF repository.
        Name: draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff Revision: 00 Title:
        Discrepancy detection between NMDA datastores Document date:
        2017-10-05 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 10 URL:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt</a>
        Status:
        <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff/</a>
        Htmlized:
        <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00</a>
        Htmlized:
        <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00</a>
        Abstract: This document defines a capability that allows to
        report discrepancies between management datastores in Netconf or
        Restconf servers that comply with the NMDA architecture. The
        capability is based on a set of RPCs that are defined as part of
        a YANG data model and that are intended to be used in
        conjunction with Netconf and Restconf. Please note that it may
        take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the
        htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The
        IETF Secretariat <br>
        <br>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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To: netconf@ietf.org
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From: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-05: receiver configuration
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Hi -

On 10/5/2017 12:56 PM, Tim Jenkins (timjenki) wrote:
...
> Clearly, the subscription must stop using that connection. However, the 
> publisher cannot tear down the connection to the receiver because other 
> subscriptions are using it. And it also cannot create a connection to 
> the receiver of the modified subscription because there already exists a 
> connection (using the wrong protocol).

No.  It just means that the earlier "of course" is incorrect.
It seems to me that recognizing that connections are distinct objects
(not necessarily part of configuration) and that the choice of a
specific protocol is a property of a connection (for a subscriber it
would logically be a *set* of possible protocols) would allow an
escape from this dilemma.  It also means that *if* one were to make
the connections visible to management, that protocol would be one
of the identifying characteristics of a given connection.

Randy


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Subject: [Netconf] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
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During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS YANG modeling, we have
received a request from implementers: How to minimize the number of
NETCONF/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation efficiency? Especially for the
case when the operator or client software needs to retrieve the object
contents pointed by a leafref.

For example, given the following simplified TE tunnel model,

+--rw te

    +--rw explicit-paths

    |  +--rw explicit-path* [name]

    |     +--rw name                      string

    |        +--rw explicit-route-object* [index]

    |           +--rw index                   uint32

    |           +--rw explicit-route-usage?   identityref

    +--rw tunnels

    |  +--rw tunnel* [name]

    |  |  +--rw name                   string

    |  |  +--rw paths

    |  |  |  +--rw path* [name]

|  |  |     +--rw explicit-path?  ->
../../../../../explicit-paths/explicit-path/name

 

when the client tries to retrieve a tunnel's information based on the tunnel
name, the "get" operation returns a list of leafref's pointing to the paths
of the tunnel. The client needs to issue at least one more "get" operation
to retrieve the path information about the given tunnel. The request is to
combine these two operations into one.

In the RDBMS SQL world, "join" can be used when SQL "select" is performed,
but NETCONF/YANG currently does not have this capability.

We'd like to ask whether such a request is considered reasonable.

If the request is reasonable, the next question is how to proceed. This
seems to be a protocol issue rather than YANG modeling issue. Is it
acceptable to add a new operation to achieve such a <get-data> operation
with expanded leafref's?

Comments and suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks,

- Xufeng

 


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class=3DMsoNormal>During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS YANG =
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class=3DCode>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +--rw explicit-paths<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DCode>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; +--rw explicit-path* =
[name]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DCode>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +--rw =
name&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;string<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DCode>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +--rw explicit-route-object* =
[index]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DCode>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +--rw =
index&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint32<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DCode>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +--rw =
explicit-route-usage?&nbsp;&nbsp; identityref<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DCode>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +--rw tunnels<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DCode>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; +--rw tunnel* =
[name]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DCode>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
+--rw name&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;string<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3DCode>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; +--rw =
paths<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DCode>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
|&nbsp; +--rw path* [name]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DCode =
style=3D'text-indent:24.0pt'>|&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
+--rw explicit-path?&nbsp; -&gt; =
../../../../../explicit-paths/explicit-path/name<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>when the =
client tries to retrieve a tunnel&#8217;s information based on the =
tunnel name, the &#8220;get&#8221; operation returns a list of =
leafref&#8217;s pointing to the paths of the tunnel. The client needs to =
issue at least one more &#8220;get&#8221; operation to retrieve the path =
information about the given tunnel. The request is to combine these two =
operations into one.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>In the RDBMS SQL =
world, &#8220;join&#8221; can be used when SQL &#8220;select&#8221; is =
performed, but NETCONF/YANG currently does not have this =
capability.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>We&#8217;d like to ask =
whether such a request is considered reasonable.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>If the request is reasonable, the next question is how =
to proceed. This seems to be a protocol issue rather than YANG modeling =
issue. Is it acceptable to add a new operation to achieve such a =
&lt;get-data&gt; operation with expanded =
leafref&#8217;s?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Comments and =
suggestions are appreciated.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>- =
Xufeng<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_0337_01D33EC6.3624BB60--


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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: Xufeng Liu <xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>, 'NetMod WG' <netmod@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: Xufeng Liu <xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>, 'NetMod WG' <netmod@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
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Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2017 21:57:38 +0000
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From: "Alexander Clemm" <ludwig@clemm.org>
To: "'Robert Wilton'" <rwilton@cisco.com>, "'Yingzhen Qu'" <yingzhen.qu@huawei.com>, "'Jeff Tantsura'" <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, <netconf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] New Version Notification for draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt
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Hi Robert,=20

=20

Thank you for your feedback! =20

=20

We clearly do have <intended> and <operational> in mind, but think this =
can be framed general enough to apply to other datastores.  We =
don=E2=80=99t mention <running>, so I am a bit confused by that comment =
as to which part of the descriptive isn=E2=80=99t right, but we will =
gladly take suggestions. =20

=20

If we don=E2=80=99t include the dampening option, it certainly makes =
implementation simpler.  However, my concern would be that if we report =
every discrepancy, even very shortlived ones, that the usefulness of =
this suffers since some propagation delays will naturally occur.  A user =
could of course always indicate a dampening period of 0. =20

=20

Including the origin annotation as an option when reporting the =
differences is a good suggestion.   Can we accomplish this with =
yang-patch, or will we need an extension there? =20

=20

--- Alex

=20

=20

From: Robert Wilton [mailto:rwilton@cisco.com]=20
Sent: Friday, October 6, 2017 9:06 AM
To: Alexander Clemm <ludwig@clemm.org>; Yingzhen Qu =
<yingzhen.qu@huawei.com>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>; =
netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] New Version Notification for =
draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt

=20

Hi,

I've (quickly) read through this draft, some brief thought/comments =
below.

I think that the basic idea is reasonable, and likely to be useful, =
although it may need some tweaks.

Some of the introduction descriptive text isn't quite right: E.g. if =
<running> is changed then <intended> must reflect that change =
immediately.  I.e. a client shouldn't be able to see an change to =
<running> that hasn't yet been reflected in <intended>.   Of course you =
would expect to see any differences due to inactive config and template =
expansions between the two.  Also, the applied configuration will only =
be represented in <operational>, never <intended>.

I don't agree with the idea of detecting "fleeting" changes or the =
associated dampening option.  I think that this would potentially be a =
lot more complicated and expensive for a device to have to check.  =
Instead, I would make the operation semantically the same as if the =
client performed the comparison directly.

At the moment, the compare operation probably only makes sense between =
<intended> and <operational>, particularly if there is any templating or =
inactive configuration that has come into play.

There may also be others reasons why the value in <operational> doesn't =
match <intended> even though the configuration has been successfully =
applied.  E.g. system created objects, IP addresses learned through =
DHCP, timer values learned via a protocol interaction from a designated =
master node that overrides any configured value, bugs, etc.  The origin =
metadata information is designed to help in these scenarios because the =
origin would have to be something other than "intended" in all of these =
scenarios.  So, having the option to include the origin annotations may =
be useful.

In summary, I think that this means that the system can answer the =
following two questions:
1) Which nodes in the intended configuration have not been reflected =
with the same value in <operational>?
2) Which nodes in <operational> with a origin <intended> don't exist in =
<intended>?

These questions are similar to asking what configuration has not been =
applied, or not removed, but the questions have been weakened to reflect =
what is actually externally deducible by comparing the intended and =
operational datastores.

Thanks,
Rob



On 05/10/2017 23:18, Alexander Clemm wrote:

Hi,

=20

We have just posted a new draft entitled =E2=80=9CDiscrepancy detection =
between NMDA datastores=E2=80=9D.=20

=20

This draft defines a capability that allows to report discrepancies =
between management datastores that comply with the NMDA architecture. =
For this purpose, the draft introduces a new RPC that is defined as part =
of a YANG data model. We anticipate that this capability will be useful =
in a variety of scenarios, specifically to detect situations in which =
data does not propagate between datastores (e.g. <intended> and =
<operational>) the way it should.=20

=20

Please let us know your feedback. We hope that we can interest the =
working group to adopt it as a work item.=20

=20

We submitted the draft to netconf, since at the core is a new RPC, i.e. =
an operation that you might request via Netconf or Restconf. It does =
define a YANG data model and the context is NMDA; in that sense netmod =
might be an alternative landing target.=20

Thanks

=20

--- Alex, Yingzhen, Jeff

=20

From: internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>=20

Sent: Thursday, October 5, 3:02 PM

Subject: New Version Notification for =
draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt

To: Yingzhen Qu, Alexander Clemm, Jeff Tantsura



A new version of I-D, draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt has been =
successfully submitted by Alexander Clemm and posted to the IETF =
repository. Name: draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff Revision: 00 Title: =
Discrepancy detection between NMDA datastores Document date: 2017-10-05 =
Group: Individual Submission Pages: 10 URL: =
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt=
 Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff/ =
Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00 =
Htmlized: =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00 =
Abstract: This document defines a capability that allows to report =
discrepancies between management datastores in Netconf or Restconf =
servers that comply with the NMDA architecture. The capability is based =
on a set of RPCs that are defined as part of a YANG data model and that =
are intended to be used in conjunction with Netconf and Restconf. Please =
note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission =
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The =
IETF Secretariat=20






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=20


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lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:windowtext'>Hi Robert, =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:windowtext'>Thank you for your =
feedback!=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:windowtext'>We clearly do have =
&lt;intended&gt; and &lt;operational&gt; in mind, but think this can be =
framed general enough to apply to other datastores.=C2=A0 We =
don=E2=80=99t mention &lt;running&gt;, so I am a bit confused by that =
comment as to which part of the descriptive isn=E2=80=99t right, but we =
will gladly take suggestions.=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:windowtext'>If we don=E2=80=99t =
include the dampening option, it certainly makes implementation =
simpler.=C2=A0 However, my concern would be that if we report every =
discrepancy, even very shortlived ones, that the usefulness of this =
suffers since some propagation delays will naturally occur.=C2=A0 A user =
could of course always indicate a dampening period of 0.=C2=A0 =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:windowtext'>Including the origin =
annotation as an option when reporting the differences is a good =
suggestion.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Can we accomplish this with yang-patch, or will =
we need an extension there?=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:windowtext'>--- =
Alex<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'> Robert Wilton [mailto:rwilton@cisco.com] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 6, 2017 9:06 AM<br><b>To:</b> Alexander =
Clemm &lt;ludwig@clemm.org&gt;; Yingzhen Qu =
&lt;yingzhen.qu@huawei.com&gt;; Jeff Tantsura =
&lt;jefftant.ietf@gmail.com&gt;; netconf@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[Netconf] New Version Notification for =
draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p>Hi,<o:p></o:p></p><p>I've =
(quickly) read through this draft, some brief thought/comments =
below.<o:p></o:p></p><p>I think that the basic idea is reasonable, and =
likely to be useful, although it may need some =
tweaks.<o:p></o:p></p><p>Some of the introduction descriptive text isn't =
quite right: E.g. if &lt;running&gt; is changed then &lt;intended&gt; =
must reflect that change immediately.&nbsp; I.e. a client shouldn't be =
able to see an change to &lt;running&gt; that hasn't yet been reflected =
in &lt;intended&gt;.&nbsp;&nbsp; Of course you would expect to see any =
differences due to inactive config and template expansions between the =
two.&nbsp; Also, the applied configuration will only be represented in =
&lt;operational&gt;, never &lt;intended&gt;.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>I don't agree with the =
idea of detecting &quot;fleeting&quot; changes or the associated =
dampening option.&nbsp; I think that this would potentially be a lot =
more complicated and expensive for a device to have to check.&nbsp; =
Instead, I would make the operation semantically the same as if the =
client performed the comparison directly.<br><br>At the moment, the =
compare operation probably only makes sense between &lt;intended&gt; and =
&lt;operational&gt;, particularly if there is any templating or inactive =
configuration that has come into play.<br><br>There may also be others =
reasons why the value in &lt;operational&gt; doesn't match =
&lt;intended&gt; even though the configuration has been successfully =
applied.&nbsp; E.g. system created objects, IP addresses learned through =
DHCP, timer values learned via a protocol interaction from a designated =
master node that overrides any configured value, bugs, etc.&nbsp; The =
origin metadata information is designed to help in these scenarios =
because the origin would have to be something other than =
&quot;intended&quot; in all of these scenarios.&nbsp; So, having the =
option to include the origin annotations may be useful.<br><br>In =
summary, I think that this means that the system can answer the =
following two questions:<br>1) Which nodes in the intended configuration =
have not been reflected with the same value in =
&lt;operational&gt;?<br>2) Which nodes in &lt;operational&gt; with a =
origin &lt;intended&gt; don't exist in &lt;intended&gt;?<br><br>These =
questions are similar to asking what configuration has not been applied, =
or not removed, but the questions have been weakened to reflect what is =
actually externally deducible by comparing the intended and operational =
datastores.<br><br>Thanks,<br>Rob<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On 05/10/2017 23:18, Alexander Clemm =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>We have just posted a new draft =
entitled =E2=80=9CDiscrepancy detection between NMDA =
datastores=E2=80=9D. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>This draft defines a capability =
that allows to report discrepancies between management datastores that =
comply with the NMDA architecture. For this purpose, the draft =
introduces a new RPC that is defined as part of a YANG data model. =
We&nbsp;anticipate that this capability will be useful in a variety of =
scenarios, specifically to detect situations in which data does not =
propagate between datastores (e.g. &lt;intended&gt; and =
&lt;operational&gt;) the way it =
should.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Please let us know your =
feedback. We hope that we can interest the working group to adopt it as =
a work item.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>We submitted the draft to =
netconf, since at the core is a new RPC, i.e. an operation that you =
might request via Netconf or Restconf. It does define a YANG data model =
and the context is NMDA; in that sense netmod might be an =
alternative&nbsp;landing =
target.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>--- Alex, Yingzhen, =
Jeff<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>From: <a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><o:p=
></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Sent: Thursday, October 5, 3:02 =
PM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Subject: New Version =
Notification for =
draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>To: Yingzhen Qu, Alexander =
Clemm, Jeff Tantsura<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>A new version of I-D, =
draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt has been successfully submitted by =
Alexander Clemm and posted to the IETF repository. Name: =
draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff Revision: 00 Title: Discrepancy detection =
between NMDA datastores Document date: 2017-10-05 Group: Individual =
Submission Pages: 10 URL: <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-dif=
f-00.txt">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-d=
iff-00.txt</a> Status: <a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff/">=
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff/</a> =
Htmlized: <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00">htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00</a> Htmlized: =
<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-di=
ff-00">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-dif=
f-00</a> Abstract: This document defines a capability that allows to =
report discrepancies between management datastores in Netconf or =
Restconf servers that comply with the NMDA architecture. The capability =
is based on a set of RPCs that are defined as part of a YANG data model =
and that are intended to be used in conjunction with Netconf and =
Restconf. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time =
of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at =
tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>_______________________=
________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Netconf mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pr=
e><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_002E_01D33EE7.0B004190--


From nobody Sun Oct  8 11:01:03 2017
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To: Xufeng Liu <xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com>
References: <033601d33ee7$bd359810$37a0c830$@gmail.com>
From: Per Hedeland <per@tail-f.com>
Cc: netconf@ietf.org, 'NetMod WG' <netmod@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
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On 2017-10-06 23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:
> During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS YANG modeling, we have received a request from implementers: How to minimize the number of NETCONF/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation efficiency? 
> Especially for the case when the operator or client software needs to retrieve the object contents pointed by a leafref.
> 
> For example, given the following simplified TE tunnel model,
> 
> +--rw te
> 
>      +--rw explicit-paths
> 
>      |  +--rw explicit-path* [name]
> 
>      |     +--rw name                      string
> 
>      |        +--rw explicit-route-object* [index]
> 
>      |           +--rw index                   uint32
> 
>      |           +--rw explicit-route-usage?   identityref
> 
>      +--rw tunnels
> 
>      |  +--rw tunnel* [name]
> 
>      |  |  +--rw name                   string
> 
>      |  |  +--rw paths
> 
>      |  |  |  +--rw path* [name]
> 
> |  |  |     +--rw explicit-path?  -> ../../../../../explicit-paths/explicit-path/name
> 
> when the client tries to retrieve a tunnels information based on the tunnel name, the get operation returns a list of leafrefs pointing to the paths of the tunnel.

Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you explain exactly what your
"get" request is (protocol and payload), and where the "list of
leafref's" (whatever that may be) occurs in the reply?

JFYI, in case there is some fundamental misunderstanding here: a leaf of
type leafref has a single value - *one* of those that satisfy the leafref
constraint, in case there are multiple "candidates".

--Per

> The client needs to issue at 
> least one more get operation to retrieve the path information about the given tunnel. The request is to combine these two operations into one.
> 
> In the RDBMS SQL world, join can be used when SQL select is performed, but NETCONF/YANG currently does not have this capability.
> 
> Wed like to ask whether such a request is considered reasonable.
> 
> If the request is reasonable, the next question is how to proceed. This seems to be a protocol issue rather than YANG modeling issue. Is it acceptable to add a new operation to achieve such a 
> <get-data> operation with expanded leafrefs?
> 
> Comments and suggestions are appreciated.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> - Xufeng
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
> 


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Hi Per,

In a nutshell we would lika for a netconf client to have a way  to instruct=
 the server on whether in response to the get request the server needs to p=
rovide the entire body of a datastore node pointed to by a leafref or just =
a pointer to said node, so that the node's body could be retrieved by a sub=
sequent separate request. This is requested by implementors who want to opt=
imise rhe number of interactions between a client and its server.

Cheers,
Igor
From:Per Hedeland
To:Xufeng Liu,
Cc:netconf@ietf.org,'NetMod WG',
Date:2017-10-08 14:01:27
Subject:Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref

On 2017-10-06 23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:
> During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS YANG modeling, we have =
received a request from implementers: How to minimize the number of NETCONF=
/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation efficiency?
> Especially for the case when the operator or client software needs to ret=
rieve the object contents pointed by a leafref.
>
> For example, given the following simplified TE tunnel model,
>
> +--rw te
>
>      +--rw explicit-paths
>
>      |  +--rw explicit-path* [name]
>
>      |     +--rw name                      string
>
>      |        +--rw explicit-route-object* [index]
>
>      |           +--rw index                   uint32
>
>      |           +--rw explicit-route-usage?   identityref
>
>      +--rw tunnels
>
>      |  +--rw tunnel* [name]
>
>      |  |  +--rw name                   string
>
>      |  |  +--rw paths
>
>      |  |  |  +--rw path* [name]
>
> |  |  |     +--rw explicit-path?  -> ../../../../../explicit-paths/explic=
it-path/name
>
> when the client tries to retrieve a tunnel=19s information based on the t=
unnel name, the =1Cget=1D operation returns a list of leafref=19s pointing =
to the paths of the tunnel.

Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you explain exactly what your
"get" request is (protocol and payload), and where the "list of
leafref's" (whatever that may be) occurs in the reply?

JFYI, in case there is some fundamental misunderstanding here: a leaf of
type leafref has a single value - *one* of those that satisfy the leafref
constraint, in case there are multiple "candidates".

--Per

> The client needs to issue at
> least one more =1Cget=1D operation to retrieve the path information about=
 the given tunnel. The request is to combine these two operations into one.
>
> In the RDBMS SQL world, =1Cjoin=1D can be used when SQL =1Cselect=1D is p=
erformed, but NETCONF/YANG currently does not have this capability.
>
> We=19d like to ask whether such a request is considered reasonable.
>
> If the request is reasonable, the next question is how to proceed. This s=
eems to be a protocol issue rather than YANG modeling issue. Is it acceptab=
le to add a new operation to achieve such a
> <get-data> operation with expanded leafref=19s?
>
> Comments and suggestions are appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> - Xufeng
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf

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<div>
<div>Hi Per,<br>
<br>
In a nutshell we would lika for a netconf client to have a way&nbsp; to ins=
truct the server on whether in response to the get request the server needs=
 to provide the entire body of a datastore node pointed to by a leafref or =
just a pointer to said node, so that
 the node's body could be retrieved by a subsequent separate request. This =
is requested by implementors who want to optimise rhe number of interaction=
s between a client and its server.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Igor<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"x_AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B=
5C4DF; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>From:</b>Per Hedeland</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>To:</b>Xufeng Liu,</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>Cc:</b>netconf@ietf.org,'NetMod WG',=
</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>Date:</b>2017-10-08 14:01:27</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>Subject:</b>Re: [Netconf] [netmod] R=
etrieving Information Pointed by leafref</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;">
<div class=3D"PlainText">On 2017-10-06 23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:<br>
&gt; During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS YANG modeling, we ha=
ve received a request from implementers: How to minimize the number of NETC=
ONF/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation efficiency?
<br>
&gt; Especially for the case when the operator or client software needs to =
retrieve the object contents pointed by a leafref.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; For example, given the following simplified TE tunnel model,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &#43;--rw te<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--rw explicit-paths<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--rw explicit-path* [name]<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--rw name=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; string<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; &#43;--rw explicit-route-object* [index]<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--rw index&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint=
32<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--rw explicit-route-usage?&nbsp;&nbsp; identityr=
ef<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--rw tunnels<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--rw tunnel* [name]<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--rw name&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; string<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--rw paths<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--rw path* =
[name]<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--rw explicit-path?&nbs=
p; -&gt; ../../../../../explicit-paths/explicit-path/name<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; when the client tries to retrieve a tunnel&#25;s information based on =
the tunnel name, the &#28;get&#29; operation returns a list of leafref&#25;=
s pointing to the paths of the tunnel.<br>
<br>
Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you explain exactly what your<br>
&quot;get&quot; request is (protocol and payload), and where the &quot;list=
 of<br>
leafref's&quot; (whatever that may be) occurs in the reply?<br>
<br>
JFYI, in case there is some fundamental misunderstanding here: a leaf of<br=
>
type leafref has a single value - *one* of those that satisfy the leafref<b=
r>
constraint, in case there are multiple &quot;candidates&quot;.<br>
<br>
--Per<br>
<br>
&gt; The client needs to issue at <br>
&gt; least one more &#28;get&#29; operation to retrieve the path informatio=
n about the given tunnel. The request is to combine these two operations in=
to one.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; In the RDBMS SQL world, &#28;join&#29; can be used when SQL &#28;selec=
t&#29; is performed, but NETCONF/YANG currently does not have this capabili=
ty.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; We&#25;d like to ask whether such a request is considered reasonable.<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; If the request is reasonable, the next question is how to proceed. Thi=
s seems to be a protocol issue rather than YANG modeling issue. Is it accep=
table to add a new operation to achieve such a
<br>
&gt; &lt;get-data&gt; operation with expanded leafref&#25;s?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Comments and suggestions are appreciated.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; - Xufeng<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; netmod mailing list<br>
&gt; netmod@ietf.org<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod">https://www.i=
etf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod</a><br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Netconf mailing list<br>
Netconf@ietf.org<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a><br>
</div>
</span></font>
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From: Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>
To: Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>, "per@tail-f.com" <per@tail-f.com>,  "xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com" <xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
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Hi Joel,

Thanks, I think I didnt explain our problem correctly.

In our case we have a leafref pointing to a te tunnel name, which happens t=
o be a key to lookup the (axilary) tunnel.  We need  a way to include the e=
ntire tunnel body (not just a name) into the get response. This is to optim=
ize the number of iterations between the client and the server. As Xufeng p=
ut it something similar to SQL join,

Igor
From:Igor Bryskin
To:per@tail-f.com,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,
Cc:netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org,
Date:2017-10-08 17:36:47
Subject:Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref

Hi Per,

In a nutshell we would lika for a netconf client to have a way  to instruct=
 the server on whether in response to the get request the server needs to p=
rovide the entire body of a datastore node pointed to by a leafref or just =
a pointer to said node, so that the node's body could be retrieved by a sub=
sequent separate request. This is requested by implementors who want to opt=
imise rhe number of interactions between a client and its server.

Cheers,
Igor
From:Per Hedeland
To:Xufeng Liu,
Cc:netconf@ietf.org,'NetMod WG',
Date:2017-10-08 14:01:27
Subject:Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref

On 2017-10-06 23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:
> During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS YANG modeling, we have =
received a request from implementers: How to minimize the number of NETCONF=
/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation efficiency?
> Especially for the case when the operator or client software needs to ret=
rieve the object contents pointed by a leafref.
>
> For example, given the following simplified TE tunnel model,
>
> +--rw te
>
>      +--rw explicit-paths
>
>      |  +--rw explicit-path* [name]
>
>      |     +--rw name                      string
>
>      |        +--rw explicit-route-object* [index]
>
>      |           +--rw index                   uint32
>
>      |           +--rw explicit-route-usage?   identityref
>
>      +--rw tunnels
>
>      |  +--rw tunnel* [name]
>
>      |  |  +--rw name                   string
>
>      |  |  +--rw paths
>
>      |  |  |  +--rw path* [name]
>
> |  |  |     +--rw explicit-path?  -> ../../../../../explicit-paths/explic=
it-path/name
>
> when the client tries to retrieve a tunnel=19s information based on the t=
unnel name, the =1Cget=1D operation returns a list of leafref=19s pointing =
to the paths of the tunnel.

Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you explain exactly what your
"get" request is (protocol and payload), and where the "list of
leafref's" (whatever that may be) occurs in the reply?

JFYI, in case there is some fundamental misunderstanding here: a leaf of
type leafref has a single value - *one* of those that satisfy the leafref
constraint, in case there are multiple "candidates".

--Per

> The client needs to issue at
> least one more =1Cget=1D operation to retrieve the path information about=
 the given tunnel. The request is to combine these two operations into one.
>
> In the RDBMS SQL world, =1Cjoin=1D can be used when SQL =1Cselect=1D is p=
erformed, but NETCONF/YANG currently does not have this capability.
>
> We=19d like to ask whether such a request is considered reasonable.
>
> If the request is reasonable, the next question is how to proceed. This s=
eems to be a protocol issue rather than YANG modeling issue. Is it acceptab=
le to add a new operation to achieve such a
> <get-data> operation with expanded leafref=19s?
>
> Comments and suggestions are appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> - Xufeng
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf

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<div><br>
Hi Joel,<br>
<br>
Thanks, I think I didnt explain our problem correctly.<br>
<br>
In our case we have a leafref pointing to a te tunnel name, which happens t=
o be a key to lookup the (axilary) tunnel.&nbsp; We need&nbsp; a way to inc=
lude the entire tunnel body (not just a name) into the get response. This i=
s to optimize the number of iterations between
 the client and the server. As Xufeng put it something similar to SQL join,=
<br>
<br>
Igor<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B5C=
4DF; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>From:</b>Igor Bryskin</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>To:</b>per@tail-f.com,xufeng.liu.iet=
f@gmail.com,</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>Cc:</b>netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.=
org,</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>Date:</b>2017-10-08 17:36:47</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>Subject:</b>Re: [Netconf] [netmod] R=
etrieving Information Pointed by leafref</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Hi Per,<br>
<br>
In a nutshell we would lika for a netconf client to have a way&nbsp; to ins=
truct the server on whether in response to the get request the server needs=
 to provide the entire body of a datastore node pointed to by a leafref or =
just a pointer to said node, so that
 the node's body could be retrieved by a subsequent separate request. This =
is requested by implementors who want to optimise rhe number of interaction=
s between a client and its server.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Igor<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"x_AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B=
5C4DF; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>From:</b>Per Hedeland</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>To:</b>Xufeng Liu,</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>Cc:</b>netconf@ietf.org,'NetMod WG',=
</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>Date:</b>2017-10-08 14:01:27</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>Subject:</b>Re: [Netconf] [netmod] R=
etrieving Information Pointed by leafref</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">
<div class=3D"PlainText">On 2017-10-06 23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:<br>
&gt; During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS YANG modeling, we ha=
ve received a request from implementers: How to minimize the number of NETC=
ONF/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation efficiency?
<br>
&gt; Especially for the case when the operator or client software needs to =
retrieve the object contents pointed by a leafref.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; For example, given the following simplified TE tunnel model,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &#43;--rw te<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--rw explicit-paths<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--rw explicit-path* [name]<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--rw name=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; string<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; &#43;--rw explicit-route-object* [index]<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--rw index&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint=
32<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--rw explicit-route-usage?&nbsp;&nbsp; identityr=
ef<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--rw tunnels<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--rw tunnel* [name]<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--rw name&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; string<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--rw paths<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--rw path* =
[name]<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--rw explicit-path?&nbs=
p; -&gt; ../../../../../explicit-paths/explicit-path/name<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; when the client tries to retrieve a tunnel&#25;s information based on =
the tunnel name, the &#28;get&#29; operation returns a list of leafref&#25;=
s pointing to the paths of the tunnel.<br>
<br>
Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you explain exactly what your<br>
&quot;get&quot; request is (protocol and payload), and where the &quot;list=
 of<br>
leafref's&quot; (whatever that may be) occurs in the reply?<br>
<br>
JFYI, in case there is some fundamental misunderstanding here: a leaf of<br=
>
type leafref has a single value - *one* of those that satisfy the leafref<b=
r>
constraint, in case there are multiple &quot;candidates&quot;.<br>
<br>
--Per<br>
<br>
&gt; The client needs to issue at <br>
&gt; least one more &#28;get&#29; operation to retrieve the path informatio=
n about the given tunnel. The request is to combine these two operations in=
to one.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; In the RDBMS SQL world, &#28;join&#29; can be used when SQL &#28;selec=
t&#29; is performed, but NETCONF/YANG currently does not have this capabili=
ty.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; We&#25;d like to ask whether such a request is considered reasonable.<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; If the request is reasonable, the next question is how to proceed. Thi=
s seems to be a protocol issue rather than YANG modeling issue. Is it accep=
table to add a new operation to achieve such a
<br>
&gt; &lt;get-data&gt; operation with expanded leafref&#25;s?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Comments and suggestions are appreciated.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; - Xufeng<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; netmod mailing list<br>
&gt; netmod@ietf.org<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod">https://www.i=
etf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod</a><br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Netconf mailing list<br>
Netconf@ietf.org<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a><br>
</div>
</span></font></div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Hi Alex,


On 07/10/2017 05:06, Alexander Clemm wrote:
>
> Hi Robert,
>
> Thank you for your feedback!
>
> We clearly do have <intended> and <operational> in mind, but think 
> this can be framed general enough to apply to other datastores.Â  We 
> donâ€™t mention <running>, so I am a bit confused by that comment as to 
> which part of the descriptive isnâ€™t right, but we will gladly take 
> suggestions.
>


It was this paragraph that seemed to imply that applied configuration 
appears in <intended>:

Some of this is
    entirely expected, as there may be a time lag between when a
    configuration is applied to the device and reflected e.g. in
    <intended>, until when it actually takes effect and is reflected in
    <operational>.


Perhaps just changing it as follows may be more clear:

Some of this is
    entirely expected, as there may be a time lag between when
    configuration is given to the device and reflected in
    <intended>, until when it actually applied by the device and
    is reflected in <operational>.



> If we donâ€™t include the dampening option, it certainly makes 
> implementation simpler.Â  However, my concern would be that if we 
> report every discrepancy, even very shortlived ones, that the 
> usefulness of this suffers since some propagation delays will 
> naturally occur.Â  A user could of course always indicate a dampening 
> period of 0.
>
So the purpose of your dampening is to filter out changes that are 
configuration changes that may still be in the act of being applied?

I think that your current definition of dampening may require some 
additional per node time tracking to implement correctly.

A similar, but cheaper way to implement this could be to filter the list 
of differences to exclude any nodes that have been re-configured within 
the last X seconds.Â  This isn't quite the same, but potentially good enough.

But, overall, I'm still not convinced whether the dampening is a good 
idea or not.Â  Or at least whether it shouldn't be something that is 
optional to implement in the RFC.


> Including the origin annotation as an option when reporting the 
> differences is a good suggestion.Â Â  Can we accomplish this with 
> yang-patch, or will we need an extension there?
>

I'm not sure, but it looks like YANG patch is allowed to include meta 
data encoded via RFC 7952.

Thanks,
Rob


> --- Alex
>
> *From:*Robert Wilton [mailto:rwilton@cisco.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, October 6, 2017 9:06 AM
> *To:* Alexander Clemm <ludwig@clemm.org>; Yingzhen Qu 
> <yingzhen.qu@huawei.com>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>; 
> netconf@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Netconf] New Version Notification for 
> draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt
>
> Hi,
>
> I've (quickly) read through this draft, some brief thought/comments below.
>
> I think that the basic idea is reasonable, and likely to be useful, 
> although it may need some tweaks.
>
> Some of the introduction descriptive text isn't quite right: E.g. if 
> <running> is changed then <intended> must reflect that change 
> immediately.Â  I.e. a client shouldn't be able to see an change to 
> <running> that hasn't yet been reflected in <intended>.Â Â  Of course 
> you would expect to see any differences due to inactive config and 
> template expansions between the two.Â  Also, the applied configuration 
> will only be represented in <operational>, never <intended>.
>
> I don't agree with the idea of detecting "fleeting" changes or the 
> associated dampening option.Â  I think that this would potentially be a 
> lot more complicated and expensive for a device to have to check.Â  
> Instead, I would make the operation semantically the same as if the 
> client performed the comparison directly.
>
> At the moment, the compare operation probably only makes sense between 
> <intended> and <operational>, particularly if there is any templating 
> or inactive configuration that has come into play.
>
> There may also be others reasons why the value in <operational> 
> doesn't match <intended> even though the configuration has been 
> successfully applied.Â  E.g. system created objects, IP addresses 
> learned through DHCP, timer values learned via a protocol interaction 
> from a designated master node that overrides any configured value, 
> bugs, etc. The origin metadata information is designed to help in 
> these scenarios because the origin would have to be something other 
> than "intended" in all of these scenarios.Â  So, having the option to 
> include the origin annotations may be useful.
>
> In summary, I think that this means that the system can answer the 
> following two questions:
> 1) Which nodes in the intended configuration have not been reflected 
> with the same value in <operational>?
> 2) Which nodes in <operational> with a origin <intended> don't exist 
> in <intended>?
>
> These questions are similar to asking what configuration has not been 
> applied, or not removed, but the questions have been weakened to 
> reflect what is actually externally deducible by comparing the 
> intended and operational datastores.
>
> Thanks,
> Rob
>
> On 05/10/2017 23:18, Alexander Clemm wrote:
>
>     Hi,
>
>     We have just posted a new draft entitled â€œDiscrepancy detection
>     between NMDA datastoresâ€.
>
>     This draft defines a capability that allows to report
>     discrepancies between management datastores that comply with the
>     NMDA architecture. For this purpose, the draft introduces a new
>     RPC that is defined as part of a YANG data model. WeÂ anticipate
>     that this capability will be useful in a variety of scenarios,
>     specifically to detect situations in which data does not propagate
>     between datastores (e.g. <intended> and <operational>) the way it
>     should.
>
>     Please let us know your feedback. We hope that we can interest the
>     working group to adopt it as a work item.
>
>     We submitted the draft to netconf, since at the core is a new RPC,
>     i.e. an operation that you might request via Netconf or Restconf.
>     It does define a YANG data model and the context is NMDA; in that
>     sense netmod might be an alternativeÂ landing target.
>
>     Thanks
>
>     --- Alex, Yingzhen, Jeff
>
>     From: internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>
>
>     Sent: Thursday, October 5, 3:02 PM
>
>     Subject: New Version Notification for
>     draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt
>
>     To: Yingzhen Qu, Alexander Clemm, Jeff Tantsura
>
>     A new version of I-D, draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt has
>     been successfully submitted by Alexander Clemm and posted to the
>     IETF repository. Name: draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff Revision: 00
>     Title: Discrepancy detection between NMDA datastores Document
>     date: 2017-10-05 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 10 URL:
>     https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt
>     Status:
>     https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff/
>     Htmlized:
>     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00
>     Htmlized:
>     https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00
>     Abstract: This document defines a capability that allows to report
>     discrepancies between management datastores in Netconf or Restconf
>     servers that comply with the NMDA architecture. The capability is
>     based on a set of RPCs that are defined as part of a YANG data
>     model and that are intended to be used in conjunction with Netconf
>     and Restconf. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes
>     from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff
>     are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat
>
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     Netconf mailing list
>
>     Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>


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    <p>Hi Alex,<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 07/10/2017 05:06, Alexander Clemm
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:002d01d33f21$b75d92f0$2618b8d0$@clemm.org">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Hi Robert, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Thank you
            for your feedback!Â  <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">We clearly
            do have &lt;intended&gt; and &lt;operational&gt; in mind,
            but think this can be framed general enough to apply to
            other datastores.Â  We donâ€™t mention &lt;running&gt;, so I am
            a bit confused by that comment as to which part of the
            descriptive isnâ€™t right, but we will gladly take
            suggestions.Â  </span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <br>
    It was this paragraph that seemed to imply that applied
    configuration appears in &lt;intended&gt;:<br>
    <br>
    <pre style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; word-wrap: break-word; white-space: pre-wrap;">Some of this is
   entirely expected, as there may be a time lag between when a
   configuration is applied to the device and reflected e.g. in
   &lt;intended&gt;, until when it actually takes effect and is reflected in
   &lt;operational&gt;.</pre>
    <br>
    Perhaps just changing it as follows may be more clear:<br>
    <br>
    <pre style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; word-wrap: break-word; white-space: pre-wrap;">Some of this is
   entirely expected, as there may be a time lag between when
   configuration is given to the device and reflected in
   &lt;intended&gt;, until when it actually applied by the device and
   is reflected in &lt;operational&gt;.</pre>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:002d01d33f21$b75d92f0$2618b8d0$@clemm.org">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">If we donâ€™t
            include the dampening option, it certainly makes
            implementation simpler.Â  However, my concern would be that
            if we report every discrepancy, even very shortlived ones,
            that the usefulness of this suffers since some propagation
            delays will naturally occur.Â  A user could of course always
            indicate a dampening period of 0. <br>
          </span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    So the purpose of your dampening is to filter out changes that are
    configuration changes that may still be in the act of being applied?<br>
    <br>
    I think that your current definition of dampening may require some
    additional per node time tracking to implement correctly.<br>
    <br>
    A similar, but cheaper way to implement this could be to filter the
    list of differences to exclude any nodes that have been
    re-configured within the last X seconds.Â  This isn't quite the same,
    but potentially good enough.<br>
    <br>
    But, overall, I'm still not convinced whether the dampening is a
    good idea or not.Â  Or at least whether it shouldn't be something
    that is optional to implement in the RFC.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:002d01d33f21$b75d92f0$2618b8d0$@clemm.org">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Including
            the origin annotation as an option when reporting the
            differences is a good suggestion.Â Â  Can we accomplish this
            with yang-patch, or will we need an extension there?Â  </span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    I'm not sure, but it looks like YANG patch is allowed to include
    meta data encoded via RFC 7952.<br>
    <br>
    Thanks,<br>
    Rob<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:002d01d33f21$b75d92f0$2618b8d0$@clemm.org">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">--- Alex<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
                style="color:windowtext"> Robert Wilton
                [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:rwilton@cisco.com">mailto:rwilton@cisco.com</a>] <br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 6, 2017 9:06 AM<br>
                <b>To:</b> Alexander Clemm <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ludwig@clemm.org">&lt;ludwig@clemm.org&gt;</a>;
                Yingzhen Qu <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:yingzhen.qu@huawei.com">&lt;yingzhen.qu@huawei.com&gt;</a>; Jeff
                Tantsura <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com">&lt;jefftant.ietf@gmail.com&gt;</a>;
                <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:netconf@ietf.org">netconf@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Netconf] New Version Notification
                for draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        <p>Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p>I've (quickly) read through this draft, some brief
          thought/comments below.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p>I think that the basic idea is reasonable, and likely to be
          useful, although it may need some tweaks.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p>Some of the introduction descriptive text isn't quite right:
          E.g. if &lt;running&gt; is changed then &lt;intended&gt; must
          reflect that change immediately.Â  I.e. a client shouldn't be
          able to see an change to &lt;running&gt; that hasn't yet been
          reflected in &lt;intended&gt;.Â Â  Of course you would expect to
          see any differences due to inactive config and template
          expansions between the two.Â  Also, the applied configuration
          will only be represented in &lt;operational&gt;, never
          &lt;intended&gt;.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I don't agree
          with the idea of detecting "fleeting" changes or the
          associated dampening option.Â  I think that this would
          potentially be a lot more complicated and expensive for a
          device to have to check.Â  Instead, I would make the operation
          semantically the same as if the client performed the
          comparison directly.<br>
          <br>
          At the moment, the compare operation probably only makes sense
          between &lt;intended&gt; and &lt;operational&gt;, particularly
          if there is any templating or inactive configuration that has
          come into play.<br>
          <br>
          There may also be others reasons why the value in
          &lt;operational&gt; doesn't match &lt;intended&gt; even though
          the configuration has been successfully applied.Â  E.g. system
          created objects, IP addresses learned through DHCP, timer
          values learned via a protocol interaction from a designated
          master node that overrides any configured value, bugs, etc.Â 
          The origin metadata information is designed to help in these
          scenarios because the origin would have to be something other
          than "intended" in all of these scenarios.Â  So, having the
          option to include the origin annotations may be useful.<br>
          <br>
          In summary, I think that this means that the system can answer
          the following two questions:<br>
          1) Which nodes in the intended configuration have not been
          reflected with the same value in &lt;operational&gt;?<br>
          2) Which nodes in &lt;operational&gt; with a origin
          &lt;intended&gt; don't exist in &lt;intended&gt;?<br>
          <br>
          These questions are similar to asking what configuration has
          not been applied, or not removed, but the questions have been
          weakened to reflect what is actually externally deducible by
          comparing the intended and operational datastores.<br>
          <br>
          Thanks,<br>
          Rob<br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">On 05/10/2017 23:18, Alexander Clemm
            wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">We have
                just posted a new draft entitled â€œDiscrepancy detection
                between NMDA datastoresâ€. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">This
                draft defines a capability that allows to report
                discrepancies between management datastores that comply
                with the NMDA architecture. For this purpose, the draft
                introduces a new RPC that is defined as part of a YANG
                data model. WeÂ anticipate that this capability will be
                useful in a variety of scenarios, specifically to detect
                situations in which data does not propagate between
                datastores (e.g. &lt;intended&gt; and
                &lt;operational&gt;) the way it should.Â <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">Please
                let us know your feedback. We hope that we can interest
                the working group to adopt it as a work item.Â <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"
              style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">We
                submitted the draft to netconf, since at the core is a
                new RPC, i.e. an operation that you might request via
                Netconf or Restconf. It does define a YANG data model
                and the context is NMDA; in that sense netmod might be
                an alternativeÂ landing target.Â <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">---
                Alex, Yingzhen, Jeff<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"
              style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">From: <a
                  href="mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">Sent:
                Thursday, October 5, 3:02 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">Subject:
                New Version Notification for
                draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"
              style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">To:
                Yingzhen Qu, Alexander Clemm, Jeff Tantsura<br>
                <br>
                <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"
              style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">A new
                version of I-D, draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt has
                been successfully submitted by Alexander Clemm and
                posted to the IETF repository. Name:
                draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff Revision: 00 Title:
                Discrepancy detection between NMDA datastores Document
                date: 2017-10-05 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 10
                URL: <a
href="https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt</a>
                Status: <a
                  href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff/"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff/</a>
                Htmlized: <a
                  href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00</a>
                Htmlized: <a
href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00</a>
                Abstract: This document defines a capability that allows
                to report discrepancies between management datastores in
                Netconf or Restconf servers that comply with the NMDA
                architecture. The capability is based on a set of RPCs
                that are defined as part of a YANG data model and that
                are intended to be used in conjunction with Netconf and
                Restconf. Please note that it may take a couple of
                minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized
                version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The
                IETF Secretariat <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Netconf mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a href="mailto:Netconf@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">Netconf@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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From: "Xufeng Liu" <xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com>
To: "'Igor Bryskin'" <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>, <per@tail-f.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
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Hi Per,

=20

From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com]=20
Sent: Sunday, October 8, 2017 7:04 PM
To: Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>; per@tail-f.com;
xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com
Cc: netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by =
leafref

=20


Hi Joel,

Thanks, I think I didnt explain our problem correctly.

In our case we have a leafref pointing to a te tunnel name, which =
happens to
be a key to lookup the (axilary) tunnel.  We need  a way to include the
entire tunnel body (not just a name) into the get response. This is to
optimize the number of iterations between the client and the server. As
Xufeng put it something similar to SQL join,

Igor

From:Igor Bryskin

To:per@tail-f.com,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,

Cc:netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org,

Date:2017-10-08 17:36:47

Subject:Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref

=20

Hi Per,

In a nutshell we would lika for a netconf client to have a way  to =
instruct
the server on whether in response to the get request the server needs to
provide the entire body of a datastore node pointed to by a leafref or =
just
a pointer to said node, so that the node's body could be retrieved by a
subsequent separate request. This is requested by implementors who want =
to
optimise rhe number of interactions between a client and its server.

Cheers,
Igor

From:Per Hedeland

To:Xufeng Liu,

Cc:netconf@ietf.org,'NetMod WG',

Date:2017-10-08 14:01:27

Subject:Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref

=20

On 2017-10-06 23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:
> During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS YANG modeling, we =
have
received a request from implementers: How to minimize the number of
NETCONF/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation efficiency?=20
> Especially for the case when the operator or client software needs to
retrieve the object contents pointed by a leafref.
>=20
> For example, given the following simplified TE tunnel model,
>=20
> +--rw te
>=20
>      +--rw explicit-paths
>=20
>      |  +--rw explicit-path* [name]
>=20
>      |     +--rw name                      string
>=20
>      |        +--rw explicit-route-object* [index]
>=20
>      |           +--rw index                   uint32
>=20
>      |           +--rw explicit-route-usage?   identityref
>=20
>      +--rw tunnels
>=20
>      |  +--rw tunnel* [name]
>=20
>      |  |  +--rw name                   string
>=20
>      |  |  +--rw paths
>=20
>      |  |  |  +--rw path* [name]
>=20
> |  |  |     +--rw explicit-path?  ->
../../../../../explicit-paths/explicit-path/name
>=20
> when the client tries to retrieve a tunnels information based on the
tunnel name, the =1Cget operation returns a list of leafrefs pointing to =
the
paths of the tunnel.

Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you explain exactly what your
"get" request is (protocol and payload), and where the "list of
leafref's" (whatever that may be) occurs in the reply?

[Xufeng]  The "get" operation is the NETCONF/RESTCON <get> protocol
operation, or the <get-data> operation described in
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01>
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01 and the GET
operations on {+restconf}/ds/<datastore> described in
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00>
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00.

=20

We have a list of leafref values because in this example model, each =
tunnel
contains a list of paths, each of them contains a leafref. The "get" =
returns
a value for each instance of such a leafref, which (as a string value) =
will
be used as a constraint (foreign key) to retrieve the instance of an
explicit-path in the model above.



JFYI, in case there is some fundamental misunderstanding here: a leaf of
type leafref has a single value - *one* of those that satisfy the =
leafref
constraint, in case there are multiple "candidates".

--Per

> The client needs to issue at=20
> least one more =1Cget operation to retrieve the path information about =
the
given tunnel. The request is to combine these two operations into one.
>=20
> In the RDBMS SQL world, =1Cjoin can be used when SQL =1Cselect is =
performed,
but NETCONF/YANG currently does not have this capability.
>=20
> Wed like to ask whether such a request is considered reasonable.
>=20
> If the request is reasonable, the next question is how to proceed. =
This
seems to be a protocol issue rather than YANG modeling issue. Is it
acceptable to add a new operation to achieve such a=20
> <get-data> operation with expanded leafrefs?
>=20
> Comments and suggestions are appreciated.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> - Xufeng
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>=20
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>=20

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>=20
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi =
Per,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Igor =
Bryskin [mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, =
October 8, 2017 7:04 PM<br><b>To:</b> Igor Bryskin =
&lt;Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com&gt;; per@tail-f.com; =
xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com<br><b>Cc:</b> netconf@ietf.org; =
netmod@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving =
Information Pointed by leafref<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>Hi =
Joel,<br><br>Thanks, I think I didnt explain our problem =
correctly.<br><br>In our case we have a leafref pointing to a te tunnel =
name, which happens to be a key to lookup the (axilary) tunnel.&nbsp; We =
need&nbsp; a way to include the entire tunnel body (not just a name) =
into the get response. This is to optimize the number of iterations =
between the client and the server. As Xufeng put it something similar to =
SQL join,<br><br>Igor<o:p></o:p></p></div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in =
0in 0in' name=3DAnyOffice-Background-Image><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'line-height:15.0pt;word-break:break-all'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Igor =
Bryskin<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'line-height:15.0pt;word-break:break-all'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>To:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>per@tail-f.com,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'line-height:15.0pt;word-break:break-all'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Cc:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org,<o:p></o:p></=
span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'line-height:15.0pt;word-break:break-all'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Date:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>2017-10-08 =
17:36:47<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'line-height:15.0pt;word-break:break-all'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Subject:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information =
Pointed by leafref<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'line-height:15.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></div><div><=
div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi Per,<br><br>In a nutshell we would lika =
for a netconf client to have a way&nbsp; to instruct the server on =
whether in response to the get request the server needs to provide the =
entire body of a datastore node pointed to by a leafref or just a =
pointer to said node, so that the node's body could be retrieved by a =
subsequent separate request. This is requested by implementors who want =
to optimise rhe number of interactions between a client and its =
server.<br><br>Cheers,<br>Igor<o:p></o:p></p></div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in =
0in 0in' name=3D"x_AnyOffice-Background-Image"><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'line-height:15.0pt;word-break:break-all'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Per =
Hedeland<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'line-height:15.0pt;word-break:break-all'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>To:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Xufeng =
Liu,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'line-height:15.0pt;word-break:break-all'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Cc:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>netconf@ietf.org,'NetMod =
WG',<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'line-height:15.0pt;word-break:break-all'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Date:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>2017-10-08 =
14:01:27<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'line-height:15.0pt;word-break:break-all'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Subject:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information =
Pointed by leafref<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'line-height:15.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></div></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>On 2017-10-06 =
23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:<br>&gt; During the design team discussion for =
TE and MPLS YANG modeling, we have received a request from implementers: =
How to minimize the number of NETCONF/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation =
efficiency? <br>&gt; Especially for the case when the operator or client =
software needs to retrieve the object contents pointed by a =
leafref.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; For example, given the following simplified TE =
tunnel model,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; +--rw te<br>&gt; =
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +--rw explicit-paths<br>&gt; =
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; +--rw explicit-path* =
[name]<br>&gt; <br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +--rw =
name&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; string<br>&gt; =
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +--rw explicit-route-object* =
[index]<br>&gt; <br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +--rw =
index&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint32<br>&gt; =
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +--rw =
explicit-route-usage?&nbsp;&nbsp; identityref<br>&gt; =
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +--rw tunnels<br>&gt; =
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; +--rw tunnel* =
[name]<br>&gt; <br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
+--rw =
name&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; string<br>&gt; =
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; +--rw =
paths<br>&gt; <br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
|&nbsp; +--rw path* [name]<br>&gt; <br>&gt; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +--rw explicit-path?&nbsp; -&gt; =
../../../../../explicit-paths/explicit-path/name<br>&gt; <br>&gt; when =
the client tries to retrieve a tunnels information based on the tunnel =
name, the &#28;get operation returns a list of leafrefs pointing to the =
paths of the tunnel.<br><br>Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you =
explain exactly what your<br>&quot;get&quot; request is (protocol and =
payload), and where the &quot;list of<br>leafref's&quot; (whatever that =
may be) occurs in the reply?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><i>[Xufeng] &nbsp;The &#8220;get&#8221; operation =
is the NETCONF/RESTCON &lt;get&gt; protocol operation, or the =
&lt;get-data&gt; operation described in <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01"><span =
style=3D'font-weight:normal;font-style:normal'>https://tools.ietf.org/htm=
l/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01</span></a> and the GET operations on =
{+restconf}/ds/&lt;datastore&gt; described in &nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00">=
<span =
style=3D'font-weight:normal;font-style:normal'>https://tools.ietf.org/htm=
l/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00</span></a>.<o:p></o:p></i></b></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></i></b></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><i>We have a list of leafref values because in this =
example model, each tunnel contains a list of paths, each of them =
contains a leafref. The &#8220;get&#8221; returns a value for each =
instance of such a leafref, which (as a string value) will be used as a =
constraint (foreign key) to retrieve the instance of an explicit-path in =
the model above.<o:p></o:p></i></b></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><br><br>JFYI, in case there is some =
fundamental misunderstanding here: a leaf of<br>type leafref has a =
single value - *one* of those that satisfy the leafref<br>constraint, in =
case there are multiple &quot;candidates&quot;.<br><br>--Per<br><br>&gt; =
The client needs to issue at <br>&gt; least one more &#28;get operation =
to retrieve the path information about the given tunnel. The request is =
to combine these two operations into one.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; In the RDBMS =
SQL world, &#28;join can be used when SQL &#28;select is performed, but =
NETCONF/YANG currently does not have this capability.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
Wed like to ask whether such a request is considered reasonable.<br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; If the request is reasonable, the next question is how to =
proceed. This seems to be a protocol issue rather than YANG modeling =
issue. Is it acceptable to add a new operation to achieve such a =
<br>&gt; &lt;get-data&gt; operation with expanded leafrefs?<br>&gt; =
<br>&gt; Comments and suggestions are appreciated.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
Thanks,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; - Xufeng<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
_______________________________________________<br>&gt; netmod mailing =
list<br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org">netmod@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod">https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/netmod</a><br>&gt; =
<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Netconf =
mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></=
div></body></html>
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To: Xufeng Liu <xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com>, "'Igor Bryskin'" <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>, per@tail-f.com
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From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod]  Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
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I'm not sure that my XPath foo is good enough, but would NETCONF's XPath 
filter solve this problem?

Thanks,
Rob


On 09/10/2017 14:42, Xufeng Liu wrote:
>
> Hi Per,
>
> *From:* Igor Bryskin [mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com]
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 8, 2017 7:04 PM
> *To:* Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>; per@tail-f.com; 
> xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com
> *Cc:* netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by 
> leafref
>
>
> Hi Joel,
>
> Thanks, I think I didnt explain our problem correctly.
>
> In our case we have a leafref pointing to a te tunnel name, which 
> happens to be a key to lookup the (axilary) tunnel.  We need  a way to 
> include the entire tunnel body (not just a name) into the get 
> response. This is to optimize the number of iterations between the 
> client and the server. As Xufeng put it something similar to SQL join,
>
> Igor
>
> *From:*Igor Bryskin
>
> *To:*per@tail-f.com,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,
>
> *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org,
>
> *Date:*2017-10-08 17:36:47
>
> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
>
> Hi Per,
>
> In a nutshell we would lika for a netconf client to have a way  to 
> instruct the server on whether in response to the get request the 
> server needs to provide the entire body of a datastore node pointed to 
> by a leafref or just a pointer to said node, so that the node's body 
> could be retrieved by a subsequent separate request. This is requested 
> by implementors who want to optimise rhe number of interactions 
> between a client and its server.
>
> Cheers,
> Igor
>
> *From:*Per Hedeland
>
> *To:*Xufeng Liu,
>
> *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,'NetMod WG',
>
> *Date:*2017-10-08 14:01:27
>
> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
>
> On 2017-10-06 23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:
> > During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS YANG modeling, we 
> have received a request from implementers: How to minimize the number 
> of NETCONF/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation efficiency?
> > Especially for the case when the operator or client software needs 
> to retrieve the object contents pointed by a leafref.
> >
> > For example, given the following simplified TE tunnel model,
> >
> > +--rw te
> >
> >      +--rw explicit-paths
> >
> >      |  +--rw explicit-path* [name]
> >
> >      |     +--rw name                      string
> >
> >      |        +--rw explicit-route-object* [index]
> >
> >      |           +--rw index uint32
> >
> >      |           +--rw explicit-route-usage? identityref
> >
> >      +--rw tunnels
> >
> >      |  +--rw tunnel* [name]
> >
> >      |  |  +--rw name                   string
> >
> >      |  |  +--rw paths
> >
> >      |  |  |  +--rw path* [name]
> >
> > |  |  |     +--rw explicit-path?  -> 
> ../../../../../explicit-paths/explicit-path/name
> >
> > when the client tries to retrieve a tunnels information based on the 
> tunnel name, the get operation returns a list of leafrefs pointing to 
> the paths of the tunnel.
>
> Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you explain exactly what your
> "get" request is (protocol and payload), and where the "list of
> leafref's" (whatever that may be) occurs in the reply?
>
> */[Xufeng]  The “get” operation is the NETCONF/RESTCON <get> protocol 
> operation, or the <get-data> operation described in 
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01 and the GET 
> operations on {+restconf}/ds/<datastore> described in 
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00./*
>
> *//*
>
> */We have a list of leafref values because in this example model, each 
> tunnel contains a list of paths, each of them contains a leafref. The 
> “get” returns a value for each instance of such a leafref, which (as a 
> string value) will be used as a constraint (foreign key) to retrieve 
> the instance of an explicit-path in the model above./*
>
>
>
> JFYI, in case there is some fundamental misunderstanding here: a leaf of
> type leafref has a single value - *one* of those that satisfy the leafref
> constraint, in case there are multiple "candidates".
>
> --Per
>
> > The client needs to issue at
> > least one more get operation to retrieve the path information about 
> the given tunnel. The request is to combine these two operations into one.
> >
> > In the RDBMS SQL world, join can be used when SQL select is 
> performed, but NETCONF/YANG currently does not have this capability.
> >
> > Wed like to ask whether such a request is considered reasonable.
> >
> > If the request is reasonable, the next question is how to proceed. 
> This seems to be a protocol issue rather than YANG modeling issue. Is 
> it acceptable to add a new operation to achieve such a
> > <get-data> operation with expanded leafrefs?
> >
> > Comments and suggestions are appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > - Xufeng
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > netmod mailing list
> > netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod


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    I'm not sure that my XPath foo is good enough, but would NETCONF's
    XPath filter solve this problem?<br>
    <br>
    Thanks,<br>
    Rob<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 09/10/2017 14:42, Xufeng Liu wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:049501d34104$6aa46670$3fed3350$@gmail.com">
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal">Hi Per,<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Igor Bryskin
                [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com">mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com</a>] <br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 8, 2017 7:04 PM<br>
                <b>To:</b> Igor Bryskin <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com">&lt;Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com&gt;</a>;
                <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:per@tail-f.com">per@tail-f.com</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com">xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com</a><br>
                <b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:netconf@ietf.org">netconf@ietf.org</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:netmod@ietf.org">netmod@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving
                Information Pointed by leafref<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
              Hi Joel,<br>
              <br>
              Thanks, I think I didnt explain our problem correctly.<br>
              <br>
              In our case we have a leafref pointing to a te tunnel
              name, which happens to be a key to lookup the (axilary)
              tunnel.  We need  a way to include the entire tunnel body
              (not just a name) into the get response. This is to
              optimize the number of iterations between the client and
              the server. As Xufeng put it something similar to SQL
              join,<br>
              <br>
              Igor<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in"
            name="AnyOffice-Background-Image">
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"
                style="line-height:15.0pt;word-break:break-all"><b><span
                    style="font-size:10.5pt">From:</span></b><span
                  style="font-size:10.5pt">Igor Bryskin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"
                style="line-height:15.0pt;word-break:break-all"><b><span
                    style="font-size:10.5pt">To:</span></b><span
                  style="font-size:10.5pt"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:per@tail-f.com,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com">per@tail-f.com,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com</a>,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"
                style="line-height:15.0pt;word-break:break-all"><b><span
                    style="font-size:10.5pt">Cc:</span></b><span
                  style="font-size:10.5pt"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org">netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org</a>,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"
                style="line-height:15.0pt;word-break:break-all"><b><span
                    style="font-size:10.5pt">Date:</span></b><span
                  style="font-size:10.5pt">2017-10-08 17:36:47<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"
                style="line-height:15.0pt;word-break:break-all"><b><span
                    style="font-size:10.5pt">Subject:</span></b><span
                  style="font-size:10.5pt">Re: [Netconf] [netmod]
                  Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:15.0pt"><span
                  style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <div>
            <div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">Hi Per,<br>
                  <br>
                  In a nutshell we would lika for a netconf client to
                  have a way  to instruct the server on whether in
                  response to the get request the server needs to
                  provide the entire body of a datastore node pointed to
                  by a leafref or just a pointer to said node, so that
                  the node's body could be retrieved by a subsequent
                  separate request. This is requested by implementors
                  who want to optimise rhe number of interactions
                  between a client and its server.<br>
                  <br>
                  Cheers,<br>
                  Igor<o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
                1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in"
                name="x_AnyOffice-Background-Image">
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                    style="line-height:15.0pt;word-break:break-all"><b><span
                        style="font-size:10.5pt">From:</span></b><span
                      style="font-size:10.5pt">Per Hedeland<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                    style="line-height:15.0pt;word-break:break-all"><b><span
                        style="font-size:10.5pt">To:</span></b><span
                      style="font-size:10.5pt">Xufeng Liu,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                    style="line-height:15.0pt;word-break:break-all"><b><span
                        style="font-size:10.5pt">Cc:</span></b><span
                      style="font-size:10.5pt"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:netconf@ietf.org">netconf@ietf.org</a>,'NetMod
                      WG',<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                    style="line-height:15.0pt;word-break:break-all"><b><span
                        style="font-size:10.5pt">Date:</span></b><span
                      style="font-size:10.5pt">2017-10-08 14:01:27<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                    style="line-height:15.0pt;word-break:break-all"><b><span
                        style="font-size:10.5pt">Subject:</span></b><span
                      style="font-size:10.5pt">Re: [Netconf] [netmod]
                      Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:15.0pt"><span
                      style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">On
                  2017-10-06 23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:<br>
                  &gt; During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS
                  YANG modeling, we have received a request from
                  implementers: How to minimize the number of
                  NETCONF/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation efficiency?
                  <br>
                  &gt; Especially for the case when the operator or
                  client software needs to retrieve the object contents
                  pointed by a leafref.<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; For example, given the following simplified TE
                  tunnel model,<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; +--rw te<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt;      +--rw explicit-paths<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt;      |  +--rw explicit-path* [name]<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt;      |     +--rw name                      string<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt;      |        +--rw explicit-route-object*
                  [index]<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt;      |           +--rw index                  
                  uint32<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt;      |           +--rw explicit-route-usage?  
                  identityref<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt;      +--rw tunnels<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt;      |  +--rw tunnel* [name]<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt;      |  |  +--rw name                   string<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt;      |  |  +--rw paths<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt;      |  |  |  +--rw path* [name]<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; |  |  |     +--rw explicit-path?  -&gt;
                  ../../../../../explicit-paths/explicit-path/name<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; when the client tries to retrieve a tunnels
                  information based on the tunnel name, the get
                  operation returns a list of leafrefs pointing to the
                  paths of the tunnel.<br>
                  <br>
                  Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you explain
                  exactly what your<br>
                  "get" request is (protocol and payload), and where the
                  "list of<br>
                  leafref's" (whatever that may be) occurs in the reply?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i>[Xufeng]  The “get” operation
                    is the NETCONF/RESTCON &lt;get&gt; protocol
                    operation, or the &lt;get-data&gt; operation
                    described in <a
                      href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01"
                      moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                        style="font-weight:normal;font-style:normal">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01</span></a>
                    and the GET operations on
                    {+restconf}/ds/&lt;datastore&gt; described in  <a
                      href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00"
                      moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                        style="font-weight:normal;font-style:normal">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00</span></a>.<o:p></o:p></i></b></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><o:p> </o:p></i></b></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i>We have a list of leafref
                    values because in this example model, each tunnel
                    contains a list of paths, each of them contains a
                    leafref. The “get” returns a value for each instance
                    of such a leafref, which (as a string value) will be
                    used as a constraint (foreign key) to retrieve the
                    instance of an explicit-path in the model above.<o:p></o:p></i></b></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
                  <br>
                  JFYI, in case there is some fundamental
                  misunderstanding here: a leaf of<br>
                  type leafref has a single value - *one* of those that
                  satisfy the leafref<br>
                  constraint, in case there are multiple "candidates".<br>
                  <br>
                  --Per<br>
                  <br>
                  &gt; The client needs to issue at <br>
                  &gt; least one more get operation to retrieve the
                  path information about the given tunnel. The request
                  is to combine these two operations into one.<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; In the RDBMS SQL world, join can be used when
                  SQL select is performed, but NETCONF/YANG currently
                  does not have this capability.<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; Wed like to ask whether such a request is
                  considered reasonable.<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; If the request is reasonable, the next question
                  is how to proceed. This seems to be a protocol issue
                  rather than YANG modeling issue. Is it acceptable to
                  add a new operation to achieve such a <br>
                  &gt; &lt;get-data&gt; operation with expanded
                  leafrefs?<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; Comments and suggestions are appreciated.<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; Thanks,<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; - Xufeng<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
                  &gt; netmod mailing list<br>
                  &gt; <a href="mailto:netmod@ietf.org"
                    moz-do-not-send="true">netmod@ietf.org</a><br>
                  &gt; <a
                    href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod"
                    moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod</a><br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  <br>
                  _______________________________________________<br>
                  Netconf mailing list<br>
                  <a href="mailto:Netconf@ietf.org"
                    moz-do-not-send="true">Netconf@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <a
                    href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf"
                    moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
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      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod</a>
</pre>
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To: Xufeng Liu <xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
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I understand your use case, but a leaf of type leafref does not in
general identify a single node in the data tree - the leafref path could
be for a non-key leaf, and/or the path could traverse list nodes, and/or
the "target" list could have multiple keys and thus multiple
leafref-leafs be required to identify a specific list entry.

Thus it seems to me that your use case is not a reasonable basis for a
new protocol operation. My XPath foo isn't very good either, but I do
believe Robert's suggestion of using an XPath filter could be a way
forward. I *think* the filter expression would be something along the
lines of

 /te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo'] | /te/explicit-paths/explicit-path[name=/te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo']/paths/path/explicit-path]

--Per

On 2017-10-09 15:42, Xufeng Liu wrote:
> Hi Per,
> 
>  
> 
> *From:* Igor Bryskin [mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com]
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 8, 2017 7:04 PM
> *To:* Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>; per@tail-f.com; xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com
> *Cc:* netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
> 
>  
> 
> 
> Hi Joel,
> 
> Thanks, I think I didnt explain our problem correctly.
> 
> In our case we have a leafref pointing to a te tunnel name, which happens to be a key to lookup the (axilary) tunnel.  We need  a way to include the entire tunnel body (not just a name) into the get
> response. This is to optimize the number of iterations between the client and the server. As Xufeng put it something similar to SQL join,
> 
> Igor
> 
> *From:*Igor Bryskin
> 
> *To:*per@tail-f.com,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,
> 
> *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org,
> 
> *Date:*2017-10-08 17:36:47
> 
> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
> 
>  
> 
> Hi Per,
> 
> In a nutshell we would lika for a netconf client to have a way  to instruct the server on whether in response to the get request the server needs to provide the entire body of a datastore node pointed
> to by a leafref or just a pointer to said node, so that the node's body could be retrieved by a subsequent separate request. This is requested by implementors who want to optimise rhe number of
> interactions between a client and its server.
> 
> Cheers,
> Igor
> 
> *From:*Per Hedeland
> 
> *To:*Xufeng Liu,
> 
> *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,'NetMod WG',
> 
> *Date:*2017-10-08 14:01:27
> 
> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
> 
>  
> 
> On 2017-10-06 23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:
>> During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS YANG modeling, we have received a request from implementers: How to minimize the number of NETCONF/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation efficiency? 
>> Especially for the case when the operator or client software needs to retrieve the object contents pointed by a leafref.
>> 
>> For example, given the following simplified TE tunnel model,
>> 
>> +--rw te
>> 
>>      +--rw explicit-paths
>> 
>>      |  +--rw explicit-path* [name]
>> 
>>      |     +--rw name                      string
>> 
>>      |        +--rw explicit-route-object* [index]
>> 
>>      |           +--rw index                   uint32
>> 
>>      |           +--rw explicit-route-usage?   identityref
>> 
>>      +--rw tunnels
>> 
>>      |  +--rw tunnel* [name]
>> 
>>      |  |  +--rw name                   string
>> 
>>      |  |  +--rw paths
>> 
>>      |  |  |  +--rw path* [name]
>> 
>> |  |  |     +--rw explicit-path?  -> ../../../../../explicit-paths/explicit-path/name
>> 
>> when the client tries to retrieve a tunnels information based on the tunnel name, the get operation returns a list of leafrefs pointing to the paths of the tunnel.
> 
> Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you explain exactly what your
> "get" request is (protocol and payload), and where the "list of
> leafref's" (whatever that may be) occurs in the reply?
> 
> */[Xufeng]  The get operation is the NETCONF/RESTCON <get> protocol operation, or the <get-data> operation described in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01 and the GET operations
> on {+restconf}/ds/<datastore> described in  https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00./*
> 
> */ /*
> 
> */We have a list of leafref values because in this example model, each tunnel contains a list of paths, each of them contains a leafref. The get returns a value for each instance of such a leafref,
> which (as a string value) will be used as a constraint (foreign key) to retrieve the instance of an explicit-path in the model above./*
> 
> 
> 
> JFYI, in case there is some fundamental misunderstanding here: a leaf of
> type leafref has a single value - *one* of those that satisfy the leafref
> constraint, in case there are multiple "candidates".
> 
> --Per
> 
>> The client needs to issue at 
>> least one more get operation to retrieve the path information about the given tunnel. The request is to combine these two operations into one.
>> 
>> In the RDBMS SQL world, join can be used when SQL select is performed, but NETCONF/YANG currently does not have this capability.
>> 
>> Wed like to ask whether such a request is considered reasonable.
>> 
>> If the request is reasonable, the next question is how to proceed. This seems to be a protocol issue rather than YANG modeling issue. Is it acceptable to add a new operation to achieve such a 
>> <get-data> operation with expanded leafrefs?
>> 
>> Comments and suggestions are appreciated.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> - Xufeng
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> netmod mailing list
>> netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> 


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Subject: Re: [Netconf] AD review of draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05
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> On Oct 5, 2017, at 1:13 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
> Dear all,
>=20
> Here is my AD review for draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.
>=20
> There are no YANG module dependencies to publish this document:
>     =
https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules =
<https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules>[]=3D=
ietf-netconf-acm =3D> select "Dependencies only"
> The YANG module validates correctly:
>     =
https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.php?module=3Dietf-n=
etconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang =
<https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.php?module=3Dietf-=
netconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang>
> No more issues:
>     https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis =
<https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis>
> The diffs with RFC 6536 are minor.
>     =
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.org/rfc=
/rfc6536.txt&url2=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bi=
s-05.txt =
<http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.org/rf=
c/rfc6536.txt&url2=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536b=
is-05.txt>
>=20
> Very good so far.
>=20
> There are however two issues:
> - You should either remove NETCONF or add RESTCONF to the document =
title.

There was an effort to disentangle NACM from NETCONF protocol here =
<https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg12966.html>. I =
guess we missed it in the title. What would form a good title? "Network =
Configuration Access Control Module=E2=80=9D?

That still leaves us with the acronym NACM currently defined as NETCONF =
Access Control Module. Shouldn't that be updated too?

> - Update the Security Considerations based on the new template.
>=20
> Editorial:
> This document thought of the NMDA/revised datastore architecture =
[I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf=
-netmod-revised-datastores>]. After all, it's a normative reference ... =
just for the definition. However, I don't clearly see this message. =
Should we clearly mention that point in section 2.4 or section =
3.2/3.2.1.=20
> For example:=20
>    The same access control rules apply to all datastores that support
>    NACM, for example, the candidate configuration datastore or the
>    running configuration datastore.
> NEW:
>    The same access control rules apply to all datastores that support
>    NACM, including the ones following the Network Management Datastore
>    Architecture [I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf=
-netmod-revised-datastores>], for example ...=20
The question of referencing the datastore draft was brought up by Andy =
here =
<https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg12743.html>, =
and the agreement (from Tom) was that a normative reference would be =
just fine, along with the change in the statement that references the =
candidate and running datastores as examples.
>=20
> Regards, Benoit
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com




--Apple-Mail=_E0F479D1-300D-4718-B02C-0227C5830152
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 5, 2017, at 1:13 AM, Benoit Claise &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" class=3D"">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">
 =20

    <meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8" class=3D"">
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" class=3D"">
    Dear all,<br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    Here is my AD review for draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.<br =
class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    There are no YANG module dependencies to publish this document:<br =
class=3D"">
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?module=
s">https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules</a>=
[]=3Dietf-netconf-acm
    =3D&gt; select "Dependencies only"<br class=3D"">
    The YANG module validates correctly:<br class=3D"">
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.php?module=3D=
ietf-netconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang">https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/=
module_details.php?module=3Dietf-netconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang</a><br =
class=3D"">
    No more issues:<br class=3D"">
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis">https://github.com/netco=
nf-wg/rfc6536bis</a><br class=3D"">
    The diffs with RFC 6536 are minor.<br class=3D"">
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=3Dhttps://tools.ietf=
.org/rfc/rfc6536.txt&amp;url2=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-netco=
nf-rfc6536bis-05.txt">http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=3Dhttp=
s://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6536.txt&amp;url2=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.org/id/dr=
aft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.txt</a><br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    Very good so far.<br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    There are however two issues:<br class=3D"">
    - You should either remove NETCONF or add RESTCONF to the document
    title.<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>There was an effort to disentangle NACM from NETCONF =
protocol&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg12966.htm=
l" class=3D"">here</a>. I guess we missed it in the title. What would =
form a good title? "Network Configuration Access Control =
Module=E2=80=9D?</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>That still leaves =
us with the acronym NACM currently defined as NETCONF Access Control =
Module. Shouldn't that be updated too?</div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" class=3D"">
    - Update the Security Considerations based on the new template.<br =
class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    Editorial:<br class=3D"">
    This document thought of the NMDA/revised datastore architecture [<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I=
-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores" =
class=3D"">I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores</a>].
    After all, it's a normative reference ... just for the definition.
    However, I don't clearly see this message. Should we clearly mention
    that point in section 2.4 or section 3.2/3.2.1. <br class=3D"">
    For example: <br class=3D"">
    <pre class=3D"newpage">   The same access control rules apply to all =
datastores that support
   NACM, for example, the candidate configuration datastore or the
   running configuration datastore.</pre>
    NEW:<br class=3D"">
    <pre class=3D"newpage">   The same access control rules apply to all =
datastores that support
   NACM, including the ones following the Network Management Datastore
   Architecture [<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I=
-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores" =
class=3D"">I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores</a>], for example ...=20
</pre></div></div></blockquote>The question of referencing the datastore =
draft was brought up by Andy&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg12743.htm=
l" class=3D"">here</a>, and the agreement (from Tom) was that a =
normative reference would be just fine, along with the change in the =
statement that references the candidate and running datastores as =
examples.<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage">
</pre>
    Regards, Benoit<br class=3D"">
  </div>

_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">Netconf =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">Netconf@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Mahesh Jethanandani</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">

</div>
<br class=3D""></body></html>=

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From: Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>
To: Per Hedeland <per@tail-f.com>, Xufeng Liu <xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
Thread-Index: AdM+52gw6QWX/3ijR4GeNhdOmHSt/gBsqhSA///GxXmAABh1KIABatEAgAAoFACAAGilEA==
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2017 17:07:54 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
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Hi Per,

Basically, what we need is a way for a client to request something like thi=
s:

get <XPath> joint with <XPath1, XPath2, ..., XPathn>

with a server interpreting the request as follows:
if a node pointed by XPath contains a pointer (e.g. key leafref) matching o=
ne of the XPath from the "joint with" list, then the server must provide th=
e entire body of the node pointed by the pointer, otherwise, just the point=
er (as it happens today, that is, when no "joint with" list specified).

We think that this would allow for the client to optimize the number of req=
uest-response iterations depending on application/use case.

Regards,
Igor =20






-----Original Message-----
From: Per Hedeland [mailto:per@tail-f.com]=20
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 12:06 PM
To: Xufeng Liu
Cc: Igor Bryskin; netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref

I understand your use case, but a leaf of type leafref does not in
general identify a single node in the data tree - the leafref path could
be for a non-key leaf, and/or the path could traverse list nodes, and/or
the "target" list could have multiple keys and thus multiple
leafref-leafs be required to identify a specific list entry.

Thus it seems to me that your use case is not a reasonable basis for a
new protocol operation. My XPath foo isn't very good either, but I do
believe Robert's suggestion of using an XPath filter could be a way
forward. I *think* the filter expression would be something along the
lines of

 /te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo'] | /te/explicit-paths/explicit-path[name=
=3D/te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo']/paths/path/explicit-path]

--Per

On 2017-10-09 15:42, Xufeng Liu wrote:
> Hi Per,
>=20
> =20
>=20
> *From:* Igor Bryskin [mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com]
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 8, 2017 7:04 PM
> *To:* Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>; per@tail-f.com; xufeng.liu.=
ietf@gmail.com
> *Cc:* netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafr=
ef
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
> Hi Joel,
>=20
> Thanks, I think I didnt explain our problem correctly.
>=20
> In our case we have a leafref pointing to a te tunnel name, which happens=
 to be a key to lookup the (axilary) tunnel.  We need  a way to include the=
 entire tunnel body (not just a name) into the get
> response. This is to optimize the number of iterations between the client=
 and the server. As Xufeng put it something similar to SQL join,
>=20
> Igor
>=20
> *From:*Igor Bryskin
>=20
> *To:*per@tail-f.com,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,
>=20
> *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org,
>=20
> *Date:*2017-10-08 17:36:47
>=20
> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafre=
f
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Hi Per,
>=20
> In a nutshell we would lika for a netconf client to have a way  to instru=
ct the server on whether in response to the get request the server needs to=
 provide the entire body of a datastore node pointed
> to by a leafref or just a pointer to said node, so that the node's body c=
ould be retrieved by a subsequent separate request. This is requested by im=
plementors who want to optimise rhe number of
> interactions between a client and its server.
>=20
> Cheers,
> Igor
>=20
> *From:*Per Hedeland
>=20
> *To:*Xufeng Liu,
>=20
> *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,'NetMod WG',
>=20
> *Date:*2017-10-08 14:01:27
>=20
> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafre=
f
>=20
> =20
>=20
> On 2017-10-06 23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:
>> During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS YANG modeling, we have=
 received a request from implementers: How to minimize the number of NETCON=
F/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation efficiency?=20
>> Especially for the case when the operator or client software needs to re=
trieve the object contents pointed by a leafref.
>>=20
>> For example, given the following simplified TE tunnel model,
>>=20
>> +--rw te
>>=20
>>      +--rw explicit-paths
>>=20
>>      |  +--rw explicit-path* [name]
>>=20
>>      |     +--rw name                      string
>>=20
>>      |        +--rw explicit-route-object* [index]
>>=20
>>      |           +--rw index                   uint32
>>=20
>>      |           +--rw explicit-route-usage?   identityref
>>=20
>>      +--rw tunnels
>>=20
>>      |  +--rw tunnel* [name]
>>=20
>>      |  |  +--rw name                   string
>>=20
>>      |  |  +--rw paths
>>=20
>>      |  |  |  +--rw path* [name]
>>=20
>> |  |  |     +--rw explicit-path?  -> ../../../../../explicit-paths/expli=
cit-path/name
>>=20
>> when the client tries to retrieve a tunnels information based on the tun=
nel name, the =1Cget operation returns a list of leafrefs pointing to the p=
aths of the tunnel.
>=20
> Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you explain exactly what your
> "get" request is (protocol and payload), and where the "list of
> leafref's" (whatever that may be) occurs in the reply?
>=20
> */[Xufeng]  The =1Cget=1D operation is the NETCONF/RESTCON <get> protocol=
 operation, or the <get-data> operation described in https://tools.ietf.org=
/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01 and the GET operations
> on {+restconf}/ds/<datastore> described in  https://tools.ietf.org/html/d=
raft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00./*
>=20
> */ /*
>=20
> */We have a list of leafref values because in this example model, each tu=
nnel contains a list of paths, each of them contains a leafref. The =1Cget=
=1D returns a value for each instance of such a leafref,
> which (as a string value) will be used as a constraint (foreign key) to r=
etrieve the instance of an explicit-path in the model above./*
>=20
>=20
>=20
> JFYI, in case there is some fundamental misunderstanding here: a leaf of
> type leafref has a single value - *one* of those that satisfy the leafref
> constraint, in case there are multiple "candidates".
>=20
> --Per
>=20
>> The client needs to issue at=20
>> least one more =1Cget operation to retrieve the path information about t=
he given tunnel. The request is to combine these two operations into one.
>>=20
>> In the RDBMS SQL world, =1Cjoin can be used when SQL =1Cselect is perfor=
med, but NETCONF/YANG currently does not have this capability.
>>=20
>> Wed like to ask whether such a request is considered reasonable.
>>=20
>> If the request is reasonable, the next question is how to proceed. This =
seems to be a protocol issue rather than YANG modeling issue. Is it accepta=
ble to add a new operation to achieve such a=20
>> <get-data> operation with expanded leafrefs?
>>=20
>> Comments and suggestions are appreciated.
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>>=20
>> - Xufeng
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> netmod mailing list
>> netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>=20


From nobody Mon Oct  9 10:08:54 2017
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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2017 10:08:39 -0700
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] AD review of draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05
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On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 9:56 AM, Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.co=
m
> wrote:

>
> On Oct 5, 2017, at 1:13 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> Here is my AD review for draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.
>
> There are no YANG module dependencies to publish this document:
>     https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules[]=
=3Dietf-netconf-acm
> =3D> select "Dependencies only"
> The YANG module validates correctly:
>     https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.
> php?module=3Dietf-netconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang
> No more issues:
>     https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis
> The diffs with RFC 6536 are minor.
>     http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=3Dhttps://
> tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6536.txt&url2=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.
> org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.txt
>
> Very good so far.
>
> There are however two issues:
> - You should either remove NETCONF or add RESTCONF to the document title.
>
>
> There was an effort to disentangle NACM from NETCONF protocol here
> <https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg12966.html>. I
> guess we missed it in the title. What would form a good title? "Network
> Configuration Access Control Module=E2=80=9D?
>
>
fine



> That still leaves us with the acronym NACM currently defined as NETCONF
> Access Control Module. Shouldn't that be updated too?
>
>

no

The acronym has been out there for a long time
and some people know what it means.



> - Update the Security Considerations based on the new template.
>
> Editorial:
> This document thought of the NMDA/revised datastore architecture [
> I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.iet=
f-netmod-revised-datastores>].
> After all, it's a normative reference ... just for the definition. Howeve=
r,
> I don't clearly see this message. Should we clearly mention that point in
> section 2.4 or section 3.2/3.2.1.
> For example:
>
>    The same access control rules apply to all datastores that support
>    NACM, for example, the candidate configuration datastore or the
>    running configuration datastore.
>
> NEW:
>
>    The same access control rules apply to all datastores that support
>    NACM, including the ones following the Network Management Datastore
>    Architecture [I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores <https://tools.ietf.o=
rg/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datast=
ores>], for example ...
>
> The question of referencing the datastore draft was brought up by Andy
> here <https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg12743.html=
>,
> and the agreement (from Tom) was that a normative reference would be just
> fine, along with the change in the statement that references the candidat=
e
> and running datastores as examples.
>


I don't think the new text helps or solves any ambiguity



> Regards, Benoit
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>
>
> Mahesh Jethanandani
> mjethanandani@gmail.com
>
>
>
>

Andy



>
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 9:56 AM, Mahesh Jethanandani <span dir=3D"ltr">&=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mjethananda=
ni@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div s=
tyle=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Oc=
t 5, 2017, at 1:13 AM, Benoit Claise &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_3=
065589058806360780Apple-interchange-newline"><div>
 =20

   =20
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    Dear all,<br>
    <br>
    Here is my AD review for draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-<wbr>05.<br>
    <br>
    There are no YANG module dependencies to publish this document:<br>
    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a class=3D"m_3065589058806360780moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www=
.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://www.yangcatalog.org/<wbr>yang-search/impact_analysis.<wbr>php?modu=
les</a>[]=3Dietf-netconf-acm
    =3D&gt; select &quot;Dependencies only&quot;<br>
    The YANG module validates correctly:<br>
    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a class=3D"m_3065589058806360780moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www=
.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.php?module=3Dietf-netconf-acm@2=
017-09-13.yang" target=3D"_blank">https://www.yangcatalog.org/<wbr>yang-sea=
rch/module_details.<wbr>php?module=3Dietf-netconf-acm@<wbr>2017-09-13.yang<=
/a><br>
    No more issues:<br>
    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a class=3D"m_3065589058806360780moz-txt-link-freete=
xt" href=3D"https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://github.com/netconf-wg/<wbr>rfc6536bis</a><br>
    The diffs with RFC 6536 are minor.<br>
    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a class=3D"m_3065589058806360780moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://www.=
ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6536.txt=
&amp;url2=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.txt"=
 target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/<wbr>rfcdiff.pyht?url1=3Dhtt=
ps://<wbr>tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6536.<wbr>txt&amp;url2=3Dhttps://tools.ietf=
.<wbr>org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-<wbr>rfc6536bis-05.txt</a><br>
    <br>
    Very good so far.<br>
    <br>
    There are however two issues:<br>
    - You should either remove NETCONF or add RESTCONF to the document
    title.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>There was an effort t=
o disentangle NACM from NETCONF protocol=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg12966.html" target=3D"_blank">here</=
a>. I guess we missed it in the title. What would form a good title? &quot;=
Network Configuration Access Control Module=E2=80=9D?</div><div><br></div><=
/div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>fine</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0<=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><di=
v></div><div>That still leaves us with the acronym NACM currently defined a=
s NETCONF Access Control Module. Shouldn&#39;t that be updated too?</div><d=
iv><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>no</div>=
<div><br></div><div>The acronym has been out there for a long time</div><di=
v>and some people know what it means.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><bl=
ockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    - Update the Security Considerations based on the new template.<br>
    <br>
    Editorial:<br>
    This document thought of the NMDA/revised datastore architecture [<a hr=
ef=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.=
ietf-netmod-revised-datastores" target=3D"_blank">I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-<=
wbr>datastores</a>].
    After all, it&#39;s a normative reference ... just for the definition.
    However, I don&#39;t clearly see this message. Should we clearly mentio=
n
    that point in section 2.4 or section 3.2/<a href=3D"http://3.2.1." targ=
et=3D"_blank">3.2.1.</a> <br>
    For example: <br>
    <pre class=3D"m_3065589058806360780newpage">   The same access control =
rules apply to all datastores that support
   NACM, for example, the candidate configuration datastore or the
   running configuration datastore.</pre>
    NEW:<br>
    <pre class=3D"m_3065589058806360780newpage">   The same access control =
rules apply to all datastores that support
   NACM, including the ones following the Network Management Datastore
   Architecture [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-=
rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores" target=3D"_blank">I-D=
.ietf-netmod-revised-<wbr>datastores</a>], for example ...=20
</pre></div></div></blockquote>The question of referencing the datastore dr=
aft was brought up by Andy=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archiv=
e/web/netconf/current/msg12743.html" target=3D"_blank">here</a>, and the ag=
reement (from Tom) was that a normative reference would be just fine, along=
 with the change in the statement that references the candidate and running=
 datastores as examples.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><b=
r></div><div>I don&#39;t think the new text helps or solves any ambiguity</=
div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div sty=
le=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div text=
=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><pre class=3D"m_3065589058806360780newpage=
"></pre>
    Regards, Benoit<br>
  </div>

______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Netconf mailing lis=
t<br><a href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Netconf@ietf.org=
</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf" target=3D=
"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/netconf</a><span class=
=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br></font></span></div></blockquote></=
div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><div>
<div>Mahesh Jethanandani</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a></div><div><br></div><br cl=
ass=3D"m_3065589058806360780Apple-interchange-newline">

</div>
<br></font></span></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>And=
y</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#88888=
8"></font></span></div><br>______________________________<wbr>_____________=
____<br>
Netconf mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf" rel=3D"noreferrer=
" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/netconf</a><=
br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a114d31eafe4852055b203d78--


From nobody Mon Oct  9 10:14:08 2017
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Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2017 19:13:47 +0200 (CEST)
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To: Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
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Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Per,
> 
> Basically, what we need is a way for a client to request something
> like this:
> 
> get <XPath> joint with <XPath1, XPath2, ..., XPathn>

... which is what Per's expression does!  Note that "|" in XPath means
"union".

But as Per explained, it only works in some cases (when the leafref
acts a "single pointer").

> with a server interpreting the request as follows:
> if a node pointed by XPath contains a pointer (e.g. key leafref)
> matching one of the XPath from the "joint with" list, then the server
> must provide the entire body of the node pointed by the pointer,
> otherwise, just the pointer (as it happens today, that is, when no
> "joint with" list specified).
> 
> We think that this would allow for the client to optimize the number
> of request-response iterations depending on application/use case.
> 
> Regards,
> Igor  



/martin


> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Per Hedeland [mailto:per@tail-f.com] 
> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 12:06 PM
> To: Xufeng Liu
> Cc: Igor Bryskin; netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
> leafref
> 
> I understand your use case, but a leaf of type leafref does not in
> general identify a single node in the data tree - the leafref path
> could
> be for a non-key leaf, and/or the path could traverse list nodes,
> and/or
> the "target" list could have multiple keys and thus multiple
> leafref-leafs be required to identify a specific list entry.
> 
> Thus it seems to me that your use case is not a reasonable basis for a
> new protocol operation. My XPath foo isn't very good either, but I do
> believe Robert's suggestion of using an XPath filter could be a way
> forward. I *think* the filter expression would be something along the
> lines of
> 
>  /te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo'] |
>  /te/explicit-paths/explicit-path[name=/te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo']/paths/path/explicit-path]
> 
> --Per
> 
> On 2017-10-09 15:42, Xufeng Liu wrote:
> > Hi Per,
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > *From:* Igor Bryskin [mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com]
> > *Sent:* Sunday, October 8, 2017 7:04 PM
> > *To:* Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>; per@tail-f.com;
> > *xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com
> > *Cc:* netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
> > *Subject:* Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
> > *leafref
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > Hi Joel,
> > 
> > Thanks, I think I didnt explain our problem correctly.
> > 
> > In our case we have a leafref pointing to a te tunnel name, which
> > happens to be a key to lookup the (axilary) tunnel.  We need a way to
> > include the entire tunnel body (not just a name) into the get
> > response. This is to optimize the number of iterations between the
> > client and the server. As Xufeng put it something similar to SQL join,
> > 
> > Igor
> > 
> > *From:*Igor Bryskin
> > 
> > *To:*per@tail-f.com,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,
> > 
> > *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org,
> > 
> > *Date:*2017-10-08 17:36:47
> > 
> > *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
> > *leafref
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Hi Per,
> > 
> > In a nutshell we would lika for a netconf client to have a way to
> > instruct the server on whether in response to the get request the
> > server needs to provide the entire body of a datastore node pointed
> > to by a leafref or just a pointer to said node, so that the node's
> > body could be retrieved by a subsequent separate request. This is
> > requested by implementors who want to optimise rhe number of
> > interactions between a client and its server.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Igor
> > 
> > *From:*Per Hedeland
> > 
> > *To:*Xufeng Liu,
> > 
> > *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,'NetMod WG',
> > 
> > *Date:*2017-10-08 14:01:27
> > 
> > *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
> > *leafref
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > On 2017-10-06 23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:
> >> During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS YANG modeling, we
> >> have received a request from implementers: How to minimize the number
> >> of NETCONF/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation efficiency?
> >> Especially for the case when the operator or client software needs to
> >> retrieve the object contents pointed by a leafref.
> >> 
> >> For example, given the following simplified TE tunnel model,
> >> 
> >> +--rw te
> >> 
> >>      +--rw explicit-paths
> >> 
> >>      |  +--rw explicit-path* [name]
> >> 
> >>      |     +--rw name                      string
> >> 
> >>      |        +--rw explicit-route-object* [index]
> >> 
> >>      |           +--rw index                   uint32
> >> 
> >>      |           +--rw explicit-route-usage?   identityref
> >> 
> >>      +--rw tunnels
> >> 
> >>      |  +--rw tunnel* [name]
> >> 
> >>      |  |  +--rw name                   string
> >> 
> >>      |  |  +--rw paths
> >> 
> >>      |  |  |  +--rw path* [name]
> >> 
> >> |  |  |     +--rw explicit-path?  ->
> >> |  |  |     ../../../../../explicit-paths/explicit-path/name
> >> 
> >> when the client tries to retrieve a tunnels information based on the
> >> tunnel name, the get operation returns a list of leafrefs pointing
> >> to the paths of the tunnel.
> > 
> > Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you explain exactly what your
> > "get" request is (protocol and payload), and where the "list of
> > leafref's" (whatever that may be) occurs in the reply?
> > 
> > */[Xufeng] The get operation is the NETCONF/RESTCON <get> protocol
> > *operation, or the <get-data> operation described in
> > *https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01 and the GET
> > *operations
> > on {+restconf}/ds/<datastore> described in
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00./*
> > 
> > */ /*
> > 
> > */We have a list of leafref values because in this example model, each
> > *tunnel contains a list of paths, each of them contains a leafref. The
> > *get returns a value for each instance of such a leafref,
> > which (as a string value) will be used as a constraint (foreign key)
> > to retrieve the instance of an explicit-path in the model above./*
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > JFYI, in case there is some fundamental misunderstanding here: a leaf
> > of
> > type leafref has a single value - *one* of those that satisfy the
> > leafref
> > constraint, in case there are multiple "candidates".
> > 
> > --Per
> > 
> >> The client needs to issue at 
> >> least one more get operation to retrieve the path information about
> >> the given tunnel. The request is to combine these two operations into
> >> one.
> >> 
> >> In the RDBMS SQL world, join can be used when SQL select is
> >> performed, but NETCONF/YANG currently does not have this capability.
> >> 
> >> Wed like to ask whether such a request is considered reasonable.
> >> 
> >> If the request is reasonable, the next question is how to
> >> proceed. This seems to be a protocol issue rather than YANG modeling
> >> issue. Is it acceptable to add a new operation to achieve such a
> >> <get-data> operation with expanded leafrefs?
> >> 
> >> Comments and suggestions are appreciated.
> >> 
> >> Thanks,
> >> 
> >> - Xufeng
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> netmod mailing list
> >> netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
> >> 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Netconf mailing list
> > Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> 


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From: Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
CC: "per@tail-f.com" <per@tail-f.com>, "xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com" <xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
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> But as Per explained, it only works in some cases (when the leafref
acts a "single pointer").

We think this is good enough. In all other cases leafref is simply not qual=
ified for the expansion.
I am not an expert , but I believe there is a similar capability in SQL, no=
?

Igor

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]=20
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 1:14 PM
To: Igor Bryskin
Cc: per@tail-f.com; xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com; netconf@ietf.org; netmod@iet=
f.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref

Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Per,
>=20
> Basically, what we need is a way for a client to request something
> like this:
>=20
> get <XPath> joint with <XPath1, XPath2, ..., XPathn>

... which is what Per's expression does!  Note that "|" in XPath means
"union".

But as Per explained, it only works in some cases (when the leafref
acts a "single pointer").

> with a server interpreting the request as follows:
> if a node pointed by XPath contains a pointer (e.g. key leafref)
> matching one of the XPath from the "joint with" list, then the server
> must provide the entire body of the node pointed by the pointer,
> otherwise, just the pointer (as it happens today, that is, when no
> "joint with" list specified).
>=20
> We think that this would allow for the client to optimize the number
> of request-response iterations depending on application/use case.
>=20
> Regards,
> Igor =20



/martin


>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Per Hedeland [mailto:per@tail-f.com]=20
> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 12:06 PM
> To: Xufeng Liu
> Cc: Igor Bryskin; netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
> leafref
>=20
> I understand your use case, but a leaf of type leafref does not in
> general identify a single node in the data tree - the leafref path
> could
> be for a non-key leaf, and/or the path could traverse list nodes,
> and/or
> the "target" list could have multiple keys and thus multiple
> leafref-leafs be required to identify a specific list entry.
>=20
> Thus it seems to me that your use case is not a reasonable basis for a
> new protocol operation. My XPath foo isn't very good either, but I do
> believe Robert's suggestion of using an XPath filter could be a way
> forward. I *think* the filter expression would be something along the
> lines of
>=20
>  /te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo'] |
>  /te/explicit-paths/explicit-path[name=3D/te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo']=
/paths/path/explicit-path]
>=20
> --Per
>=20
> On 2017-10-09 15:42, Xufeng Liu wrote:
> > Hi Per,
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
> > *From:* Igor Bryskin [mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com]
> > *Sent:* Sunday, October 8, 2017 7:04 PM
> > *To:* Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>; per@tail-f.com;
> > *xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com
> > *Cc:* netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
> > *Subject:* Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
> > *leafref
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
> >=20
> > Hi Joel,
> >=20
> > Thanks, I think I didnt explain our problem correctly.
> >=20
> > In our case we have a leafref pointing to a te tunnel name, which
> > happens to be a key to lookup the (axilary) tunnel.  We need a way to
> > include the entire tunnel body (not just a name) into the get
> > response. This is to optimize the number of iterations between the
> > client and the server. As Xufeng put it something similar to SQL join,
> >=20
> > Igor
> >=20
> > *From:*Igor Bryskin
> >=20
> > *To:*per@tail-f.com,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,
> >=20
> > *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org,
> >=20
> > *Date:*2017-10-08 17:36:47
> >=20
> > *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
> > *leafref
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
> > Hi Per,
> >=20
> > In a nutshell we would lika for a netconf client to have a way to
> > instruct the server on whether in response to the get request the
> > server needs to provide the entire body of a datastore node pointed
> > to by a leafref or just a pointer to said node, so that the node's
> > body could be retrieved by a subsequent separate request. This is
> > requested by implementors who want to optimise rhe number of
> > interactions between a client and its server.
> >=20
> > Cheers,
> > Igor
> >=20
> > *From:*Per Hedeland
> >=20
> > *To:*Xufeng Liu,
> >=20
> > *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,'NetMod WG',
> >=20
> > *Date:*2017-10-08 14:01:27
> >=20
> > *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
> > *leafref
> >=20
> > =20
> >=20
> > On 2017-10-06 23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:
> >> During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS YANG modeling, we
> >> have received a request from implementers: How to minimize the number
> >> of NETCONF/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation efficiency?
> >> Especially for the case when the operator or client software needs to
> >> retrieve the object contents pointed by a leafref.
> >>=20
> >> For example, given the following simplified TE tunnel model,
> >>=20
> >> +--rw te
> >>=20
> >>      +--rw explicit-paths
> >>=20
> >>      |  +--rw explicit-path* [name]
> >>=20
> >>      |     +--rw name                      string
> >>=20
> >>      |        +--rw explicit-route-object* [index]
> >>=20
> >>      |           +--rw index                   uint32
> >>=20
> >>      |           +--rw explicit-route-usage?   identityref
> >>=20
> >>      +--rw tunnels
> >>=20
> >>      |  +--rw tunnel* [name]
> >>=20
> >>      |  |  +--rw name                   string
> >>=20
> >>      |  |  +--rw paths
> >>=20
> >>      |  |  |  +--rw path* [name]
> >>=20
> >> |  |  |     +--rw explicit-path?  ->
> >> |  |  |     ../../../../../explicit-paths/explicit-path/name
> >>=20
> >> when the client tries to retrieve a tunnels information based on the
> >> tunnel name, the =1Cget operation returns a list of leafrefs pointing
> >> to the paths of the tunnel.
> >=20
> > Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you explain exactly what your
> > "get" request is (protocol and payload), and where the "list of
> > leafref's" (whatever that may be) occurs in the reply?
> >=20
> > */[Xufeng] The =1Cget=1D operation is the NETCONF/RESTCON <get> protoco=
l
> > *operation, or the <get-data> operation described in
> > *https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01 and the GET
> > *operations
> > on {+restconf}/ds/<datastore> described in
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00./*
> >=20
> > */ /*
> >=20
> > */We have a list of leafref values because in this example model, each
> > *tunnel contains a list of paths, each of them contains a leafref. The
> > *=1Cget=1D returns a value for each instance of such a leafref,
> > which (as a string value) will be used as a constraint (foreign key)
> > to retrieve the instance of an explicit-path in the model above./*
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > JFYI, in case there is some fundamental misunderstanding here: a leaf
> > of
> > type leafref has a single value - *one* of those that satisfy the
> > leafref
> > constraint, in case there are multiple "candidates".
> >=20
> > --Per
> >=20
> >> The client needs to issue at=20
> >> least one more =1Cget operation to retrieve the path information about
> >> the given tunnel. The request is to combine these two operations into
> >> one.
> >>=20
> >> In the RDBMS SQL world, =1Cjoin can be used when SQL =1Cselect is
> >> performed, but NETCONF/YANG currently does not have this capability.
> >>=20
> >> Wed like to ask whether such a request is considered reasonable.
> >>=20
> >> If the request is reasonable, the next question is how to
> >> proceed. This seems to be a protocol issue rather than YANG modeling
> >> issue. Is it acceptable to add a new operation to achieve such a
> >> <get-data> operation with expanded leafrefs?
> >>=20
> >> Comments and suggestions are appreciated.
> >>=20
> >> Thanks,
> >>=20
> >> - Xufeng
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> netmod mailing list
> >> netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
> >>=20
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > Netconf mailing list
> > Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> >=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>=20


From nobody Mon Oct  9 12:12:14 2017
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To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
Cc: Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com, xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com, netconf@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org
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From: Per Hedeland <per@tail-f.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
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On 2017-10-09 19:13, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Per,
>>
>> Basically, what we need is a way for a client to request something
>> like this:
>>
>> get <XPath> joint with <XPath1, XPath2, ..., XPathn>
> 
> ... which is what Per's expression does!  Note that "|" in XPath means
> "union".
> 
> But as Per explained, it only works in some cases (when the leafref
> acts a "single pointer").

Well, that particular expression works only in that case - but since it
is effectively the client that (perhaps based on the data model) decides
what the leafref-leafs "mean" (in this case the single key of a single
list), other cases can be handled the same way. E.g. multiple
leafref-to-key leafs that together give the keys of a multi-key list
just amounts to a slightly hairier XPath filter...

--Per

>> with a server interpreting the request as follows:
>> if a node pointed by XPath contains a pointer (e.g. key leafref)
>> matching one of the XPath from the "joint with" list, then the server
>> must provide the entire body of the node pointed by the pointer,
>> otherwise, just the pointer (as it happens today, that is, when no
>> "joint with" list specified).
>>
>> We think that this would allow for the client to optimize the number
>> of request-response iterations depending on application/use case.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Igor
> 
> 
> 
> /martin
> 
> 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Per Hedeland [mailto:per@tail-f.com]
>> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 12:06 PM
>> To: Xufeng Liu
>> Cc: Igor Bryskin; netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>> leafref
>>
>> I understand your use case, but a leaf of type leafref does not in
>> general identify a single node in the data tree - the leafref path
>> could
>> be for a non-key leaf, and/or the path could traverse list nodes,
>> and/or
>> the "target" list could have multiple keys and thus multiple
>> leafref-leafs be required to identify a specific list entry.
>>
>> Thus it seems to me that your use case is not a reasonable basis for a
>> new protocol operation. My XPath foo isn't very good either, but I do
>> believe Robert's suggestion of using an XPath filter could be a way
>> forward. I *think* the filter expression would be something along the
>> lines of
>>
>>   /te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo'] |
>>   /te/explicit-paths/explicit-path[name=/te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo']/paths/path/explicit-path]
>>
>> --Per
>>
>> On 2017-10-09 15:42, Xufeng Liu wrote:
>>> Hi Per,
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>> *From:* Igor Bryskin [mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com]
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, October 8, 2017 7:04 PM
>>> *To:* Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>; per@tail-f.com;
>>> *xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com
>>> *Cc:* netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>> *leafref
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Joel,
>>>
>>> Thanks, I think I didnt explain our problem correctly.
>>>
>>> In our case we have a leafref pointing to a te tunnel name, which
>>> happens to be a key to lookup the (axilary) tunnel.  We need a way to
>>> include the entire tunnel body (not just a name) into the get
>>> response. This is to optimize the number of iterations between the
>>> client and the server. As Xufeng put it something similar to SQL join,
>>>
>>> Igor
>>>
>>> *From:*Igor Bryskin
>>>
>>> *To:*per@tail-f.com,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,
>>>
>>> *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org,
>>>
>>> *Date:*2017-10-08 17:36:47
>>>
>>> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>> *leafref
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>> Hi Per,
>>>
>>> In a nutshell we would lika for a netconf client to have a way to
>>> instruct the server on whether in response to the get request the
>>> server needs to provide the entire body of a datastore node pointed
>>> to by a leafref or just a pointer to said node, so that the node's
>>> body could be retrieved by a subsequent separate request. This is
>>> requested by implementors who want to optimise rhe number of
>>> interactions between a client and its server.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Igor
>>>
>>> *From:*Per Hedeland
>>>
>>> *To:*Xufeng Liu,
>>>
>>> *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,'NetMod WG',
>>>
>>> *Date:*2017-10-08 14:01:27
>>>
>>> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>> *leafref
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>> On 2017-10-06 23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:
>>>> During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS YANG modeling, we
>>>> have received a request from implementers: How to minimize the number
>>>> of NETCONF/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation efficiency?
>>>> Especially for the case when the operator or client software needs to
>>>> retrieve the object contents pointed by a leafref.
>>>>
>>>> For example, given the following simplified TE tunnel model,
>>>>
>>>> +--rw te
>>>>
>>>>       +--rw explicit-paths
>>>>
>>>>       |  +--rw explicit-path* [name]
>>>>
>>>>       |     +--rw name                      string
>>>>
>>>>       |        +--rw explicit-route-object* [index]
>>>>
>>>>       |           +--rw index                   uint32
>>>>
>>>>       |           +--rw explicit-route-usage?   identityref
>>>>
>>>>       +--rw tunnels
>>>>
>>>>       |  +--rw tunnel* [name]
>>>>
>>>>       |  |  +--rw name                   string
>>>>
>>>>       |  |  +--rw paths
>>>>
>>>>       |  |  |  +--rw path* [name]
>>>>
>>>> |  |  |     +--rw explicit-path?  ->
>>>> |  |  |     ../../../../../explicit-paths/explicit-path/name
>>>>
>>>> when the client tries to retrieve a tunnels information based on the
>>>> tunnel name, the get operation returns a list of leafrefs pointing
>>>> to the paths of the tunnel.
>>>
>>> Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you explain exactly what your
>>> "get" request is (protocol and payload), and where the "list of
>>> leafref's" (whatever that may be) occurs in the reply?
>>>
>>> */[Xufeng] The get operation is the NETCONF/RESTCON <get> protocol
>>> *operation, or the <get-data> operation described in
>>> *https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01 and the GET
>>> *operations
>>> on {+restconf}/ds/<datastore> described in
>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00./*
>>>
>>> */ /*
>>>
>>> */We have a list of leafref values because in this example model, each
>>> *tunnel contains a list of paths, each of them contains a leafref. The
>>> *get returns a value for each instance of such a leafref,
>>> which (as a string value) will be used as a constraint (foreign key)
>>> to retrieve the instance of an explicit-path in the model above./*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> JFYI, in case there is some fundamental misunderstanding here: a leaf
>>> of
>>> type leafref has a single value - *one* of those that satisfy the
>>> leafref
>>> constraint, in case there are multiple "candidates".
>>>
>>> --Per
>>>
>>>> The client needs to issue at
>>>> least one more get operation to retrieve the path information about
>>>> the given tunnel. The request is to combine these two operations into
>>>> one.
>>>>
>>>> In the RDBMS SQL world, join can be used when SQL select is
>>>> performed, but NETCONF/YANG currently does not have this capability.
>>>>
>>>> Wed like to ask whether such a request is considered reasonable.
>>>>
>>>> If the request is reasonable, the next question is how to
>>>> proceed. This seems to be a protocol issue rather than YANG modeling
>>>> issue. Is it acceptable to add a new operation to achieve such a
>>>> <get-data> operation with expanded leafrefs?
>>>>
>>>> Comments and suggestions are appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> - Xufeng
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> netmod mailing list
>>>> netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Netconf mailing list
>>> Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Netconf mailing list
>> Netconf@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>


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From: Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>
To: "per@tail-f.com" <per@tail-f.com>, "mbj@tail-f.com" <mbj@tail-f.com>
CC: Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>, "xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com" <xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
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I agree. For example, a leafref may point not to a singls entity, but to a =
list of entities, and the client might want to expand all of them into the =
joint get response.

Igor

From:Per Hedeland
To:Martin Bjorklund,
Cc:Igor Bryskin,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org,
Date:2017-10-09 15:12:22
Subject:Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref

On 2017-10-09 19:13, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Per,
>>
>> Basically, what we need is a way for a client to request something
>> like this:
>>
>> get <XPath> joint with <XPath1, XPath2, ..., XPathn>
>
> ... which is what Per's expression does!  Note that "|" in XPath means
> "union".
>
> But as Per explained, it only works in some cases (when the leafref
> acts a "single pointer").

Well, that particular expression works only in that case - but since it
is effectively the client that (perhaps based on the data model) decides
what the leafref-leafs "mean" (in this case the single key of a single
list), other cases can be handled the same way. E.g. multiple
leafref-to-key leafs that together give the keys of a multi-key list
just amounts to a slightly hairier XPath filter...

--Per

>> with a server interpreting the request as follows:
>> if a node pointed by XPath contains a pointer (e.g. key leafref)
>> matching one of the XPath from the "joint with" list, then the server
>> must provide the entire body of the node pointed by the pointer,
>> otherwise, just the pointer (as it happens today, that is, when no
>> "joint with" list specified).
>>
>> We think that this would allow for the client to optimize the number
>> of request-response iterations depending on application/use case.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Igor
>
>
>
> /martin
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Per Hedeland [mailto:per@tail-f.com]
>> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 12:06 PM
>> To: Xufeng Liu
>> Cc: Igor Bryskin; netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>> leafref
>>
>> I understand your use case, but a leaf of type leafref does not in
>> general identify a single node in the data tree - the leafref path
>> could
>> be for a non-key leaf, and/or the path could traverse list nodes,
>> and/or
>> the "target" list could have multiple keys and thus multiple
>> leafref-leafs be required to identify a specific list entry.
>>
>> Thus it seems to me that your use case is not a reasonable basis for a
>> new protocol operation. My XPath foo isn't very good either, but I do
>> believe Robert's suggestion of using an XPath filter could be a way
>> forward. I *think* the filter expression would be something along the
>> lines of
>>
>>   /te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo'] |
>>   /te/explicit-paths/explicit-path[name=3D/te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo=
']/paths/path/explicit-path]
>>
>> --Per
>>
>> On 2017-10-09 15:42, Xufeng Liu wrote:
>>> Hi Per,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Igor Bryskin [mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com]
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, October 8, 2017 7:04 PM
>>> *To:* Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>; per@tail-f.com;
>>> *xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com
>>> *Cc:* netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>> *leafref
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Joel,
>>>
>>> Thanks, I think I didnt explain our problem correctly.
>>>
>>> In our case we have a leafref pointing to a te tunnel name, which
>>> happens to be a key to lookup the (axilary) tunnel.  We need a way to
>>> include the entire tunnel body (not just a name) into the get
>>> response. This is to optimize the number of iterations between the
>>> client and the server. As Xufeng put it something similar to SQL join,
>>>
>>> Igor
>>>
>>> *From:*Igor Bryskin
>>>
>>> *To:*per@tail-f.com,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,
>>>
>>> *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org,
>>>
>>> *Date:*2017-10-08 17:36:47
>>>
>>> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>> *leafref
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Per,
>>>
>>> In a nutshell we would lika for a netconf client to have a way to
>>> instruct the server on whether in response to the get request the
>>> server needs to provide the entire body of a datastore node pointed
>>> to by a leafref or just a pointer to said node, so that the node's
>>> body could be retrieved by a subsequent separate request. This is
>>> requested by implementors who want to optimise rhe number of
>>> interactions between a client and its server.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Igor
>>>
>>> *From:*Per Hedeland
>>>
>>> *To:*Xufeng Liu,
>>>
>>> *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,'NetMod WG',
>>>
>>> *Date:*2017-10-08 14:01:27
>>>
>>> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>> *leafref
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2017-10-06 23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:
>>>> During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS YANG modeling, we
>>>> have received a request from implementers: How to minimize the number
>>>> of NETCONF/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation efficiency?
>>>> Especially for the case when the operator or client software needs to
>>>> retrieve the object contents pointed by a leafref.
>>>>
>>>> For example, given the following simplified TE tunnel model,
>>>>
>>>> +--rw te
>>>>
>>>>       +--rw explicit-paths
>>>>
>>>>       |  +--rw explicit-path* [name]
>>>>
>>>>       |     +--rw name                      string
>>>>
>>>>       |        +--rw explicit-route-object* [index]
>>>>
>>>>       |           +--rw index                   uint32
>>>>
>>>>       |           +--rw explicit-route-usage?   identityref
>>>>
>>>>       +--rw tunnels
>>>>
>>>>       |  +--rw tunnel* [name]
>>>>
>>>>       |  |  +--rw name                   string
>>>>
>>>>       |  |  +--rw paths
>>>>
>>>>       |  |  |  +--rw path* [name]
>>>>
>>>> |  |  |     +--rw explicit-path?  ->
>>>> |  |  |     ../../../../../explicit-paths/explicit-path/name
>>>>
>>>> when the client tries to retrieve a tunnels information based on the
>>>> tunnel name, the =1Cget operation returns a list of leafrefs pointing
>>>> to the paths of the tunnel.
>>>
>>> Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you explain exactly what your
>>> "get" request is (protocol and payload), and where the "list of
>>> leafref's" (whatever that may be) occurs in the reply?
>>>
>>> */[Xufeng] The =1Cget=1D operation is the NETCONF/RESTCON <get> protoco=
l
>>> *operation, or the <get-data> operation described in
>>> *https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01 and the GET
>>> *operations
>>> on {+restconf}/ds/<datastore> described in
>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00./*
>>>
>>> */ /*
>>>
>>> */We have a list of leafref values because in this example model, each
>>> *tunnel contains a list of paths, each of them contains a leafref. The
>>> *=1Cget=1D returns a value for each instance of such a leafref,
>>> which (as a string value) will be used as a constraint (foreign key)
>>> to retrieve the instance of an explicit-path in the model above./*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> JFYI, in case there is some fundamental misunderstanding here: a leaf
>>> of
>>> type leafref has a single value - *one* of those that satisfy the
>>> leafref
>>> constraint, in case there are multiple "candidates".
>>>
>>> --Per
>>>
>>>> The client needs to issue at
>>>> least one more =1Cget operation to retrieve the path information about
>>>> the given tunnel. The request is to combine these two operations into
>>>> one.
>>>>
>>>> In the RDBMS SQL world, =1Cjoin can be used when SQL =1Cselect is
>>>> performed, but NETCONF/YANG currently does not have this capability.
>>>>
>>>> Wed like to ask whether such a request is considered reasonable.
>>>>
>>>> If the request is reasonable, the next question is how to
>>>> proceed. This seems to be a protocol issue rather than YANG modeling
>>>> issue. Is it acceptable to add a new operation to achieve such a
>>>> <get-data> operation with expanded leafrefs?
>>>>
>>>> Comments and suggestions are appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> - Xufeng
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> netmod mailing list
>>>> netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Netconf mailing list
>>> Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Netconf mailing list
>> Netconf@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>


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<div>
<div>I agree. For example, a leafref may point not to a singls entity, but =
to a list of entities, and the client might want to expand all of them into=
 the joint get response.<br>
<br>
Igor<br>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"x_AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B=
5C4DF; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>From:</b>Per Hedeland</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>To:</b>Martin Bjorklund,</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>Cc:</b>Igor Bryskin,xufeng.liu.ietf@=
gmail.com,netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org,</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>Date:</b>2017-10-09 15:12:22</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>Subject:</b>Re: [Netconf] [netmod] R=
etrieving Information Pointed by leafref</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;">
<div class=3D"PlainText">On 2017-10-09 19:13, Martin Bjorklund wrote:<br>
&gt; Igor Bryskin &lt;Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi Per,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Basically, what we need is a way for a client to request something=
<br>
&gt;&gt; like this:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; get &lt;XPath&gt; joint with &lt;XPath1, XPath2, ..., XPathn&gt;<b=
r>
&gt; <br>
&gt; ... which is what Per's expression does!&nbsp; Note that &quot;|&quot;=
 in XPath means<br>
&gt; &quot;union&quot;.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; But as Per explained, it only works in some cases (when the leafref<br=
>
&gt; acts a &quot;single pointer&quot;).<br>
<br>
Well, that particular expression works only in that case - but since it<br>
is effectively the client that (perhaps based on the data model) decides<br=
>
what the leafref-leafs &quot;mean&quot; (in this case the single key of a s=
ingle<br>
list), other cases can be handled the same way. E.g. multiple<br>
leafref-to-key leafs that together give the keys of a multi-key list<br>
just amounts to a slightly hairier XPath filter...<br>
<br>
--Per<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; with a server interpreting the request as follows:<br>
&gt;&gt; if a node pointed by XPath contains a pointer (e.g. key leafref)<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; matching one of the XPath from the &quot;joint with&quot; list, th=
en the server<br>
&gt;&gt; must provide the entire body of the node pointed by the pointer,<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; otherwise, just the pointer (as it happens today, that is, when no=
<br>
&gt;&gt; &quot;joint with&quot; list specified).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; We think that this would allow for the client to optimize the numb=
er<br>
&gt;&gt; of request-response iterations depending on application/use case.<=
br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt;&gt; Igor<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; /martin<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt; From: Per Hedeland [<a href=3D"mailto:per@tail-f.com">mailto:per@t=
ail-f.com</a>]<br>
&gt;&gt; Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 12:06 PM<br>
&gt;&gt; To: Xufeng Liu<br>
&gt;&gt; Cc: Igor Bryskin; netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org<br>
&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by<=
br>
&gt;&gt; leafref<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I understand your use case, but a leaf of type leafref does not in=
<br>
&gt;&gt; general identify a single node in the data tree - the leafref path=
<br>
&gt;&gt; could<br>
&gt;&gt; be for a non-key leaf, and/or the path could traverse list nodes,<=
br>
&gt;&gt; and/or<br>
&gt;&gt; the &quot;target&quot; list could have multiple keys and thus mult=
iple<br>
&gt;&gt; leafref-leafs be required to identify a specific list entry.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Thus it seems to me that your use case is not a reasonable basis f=
or a<br>
&gt;&gt; new protocol operation. My XPath foo isn't very good either, but I=
 do<br>
&gt;&gt; believe Robert's suggestion of using an XPath filter could be a wa=
y<br>
&gt;&gt; forward. I *think* the filter expression would be something along =
the<br>
&gt;&gt; lines of<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; /te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo'] |<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; /te/explicit-paths/explicit-path[name=3D/te/tunnels/tu=
nnel[name=3D'foo']/paths/path/explicit-path]<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; --Per<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 2017-10-09 15:42, Xufeng Liu wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Per,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; *From:* Igor Bryskin [<a href=3D"mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.co=
m">mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com</a>]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; *Sent:* Sunday, October 8, 2017 7:04 PM<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; *To:* Igor Bryskin &lt;Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com&gt;; per@tail-f=
.com;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; *xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; *Cc:* netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; *Subject:* Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Point=
ed by<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; *leafref<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Joel,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks, I think I didnt explain our problem correctly.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; In our case we have a leafref pointing to a te tunnel name, wh=
ich<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; happens to be a key to lookup the (axilary) tunnel.&nbsp; We n=
eed a way to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; include the entire tunnel body (not just a name) into the get<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; response. This is to optimize the number of iterations between=
 the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; client and the server. As Xufeng put it something similar to S=
QL join,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Igor<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; *From:*Igor Bryskin<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; *To:*per@tail-f.com,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; *Date:*2017-10-08 17:36:47<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointe=
d by<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; *leafref<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Per,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; In a nutshell we would lika for a netconf client to have a way=
 to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; instruct the server on whether in response to the get request =
the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; server needs to provide the entire body of a datastore node po=
inted<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; to by a leafref or just a pointer to said node, so that the no=
de's<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; body could be retrieved by a subsequent separate request. This=
 is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; requested by implementors who want to optimise rhe number of<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt; interactions between a client and its server.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Igor<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; *From:*Per Hedeland<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; *To:*Xufeng Liu,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,'NetMod WG',<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; *Date:*2017-10-08 14:01:27<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointe=
d by<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; *leafref<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; On 2017-10-06 23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS YANG mod=
eling, we<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; have received a request from implementers: How to minimize=
 the number<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of NETCONF/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation efficiency?<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Especially for the case when the operator or client softwa=
re needs to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; retrieve the object contents pointed by a leafref.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; For example, given the following simplified TE tunnel mode=
l,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &#43;--rw te<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--rw explicit-pat=
hs<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--rw expl=
icit-path* [name]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; &#43;--rw name&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; strin=
g<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--rw explicit-route-object* [index]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--rw index&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint32<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--rw explicit-route-usage?&nbs=
p;&nbsp; identityref<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--rw tunnels<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--rw tunn=
el* [name]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;-=
-rw name&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; string<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;-=
-rw paths<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp=
; &#43;--rw path* [name]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--rw explic=
it-path?&nbsp; -&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ../../../../../e=
xplicit-paths/explicit-path/name<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; when the client tries to retrieve a tunnels information ba=
sed on the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; tunnel name, the &#28;get operation returns a list of leaf=
refs pointing<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to the paths of the tunnel.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you explain exactly what=
 your<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;get&quot; request is (protocol and payload), and where t=
he &quot;list of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; leafref's&quot; (whatever that may be) occurs in the reply?<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; */[Xufeng] The &#28;get&#29; operation is the NETCONF/RESTCON =
&lt;get&gt; protocol<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; *operation, or the &lt;get-data&gt; operation described in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; *https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01 and th=
e GET<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; *operations<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; on {&#43;restconf}/ds/&lt;datastore&gt; described in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda=
-restconf-00./*">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00./*</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; */ /*<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; */We have a list of leafref values because in this example mod=
el, each<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; *tunnel contains a list of paths, each of them contains a leaf=
ref. The<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; *&#28;get&#29; returns a value for each instance of such a lea=
fref,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; which (as a string value) will be used as a constraint (foreig=
n key)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; to retrieve the instance of an explicit-path in the model abov=
e./*<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; JFYI, in case there is some fundamental misunderstanding here:=
 a leaf<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; type leafref has a single value - *one* of those that satisfy =
the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; leafref<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; constraint, in case there are multiple &quot;candidates&quot;.=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; --Per<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The client needs to issue at<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; least one more &#28;get operation to retrieve the path inf=
ormation about<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the given tunnel. The request is to combine these two oper=
ations into<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; one.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In the RDBMS SQL world, &#28;join can be used when SQL &#2=
8;select is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; performed, but NETCONF/YANG currently does not have this c=
apability.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Wed like to ask whether such a request is considered reaso=
nable.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; If the request is reasonable, the next question is how to<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; proceed. This seems to be a protocol issue rather than YAN=
G modeling<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; issue. Is it acceptable to add a new operation to achieve =
such a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;get-data&gt; operation with expanded leafrefs?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Comments and suggestions are appreciated.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - Xufeng<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; netmod mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; netmod@ietf.org &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org">mai=
lto:netmod@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Netconf mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Netconf@ietf.org &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">mailt=
o:Netconf@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">http=
s://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; Netconf mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; Netconf@ietf.org<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">https://=
www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
<br>
</div>
</span></font>
</body>
</html>

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To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>, Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
Cc: NETCONF <netconf@ietf.org>
References: <4b988ee4-3787-9616-bbd5-3de6b9f82f70@cisco.com> <87B530C4-2849-401E-9783-77C71B2BEF90@gmail.com> <CABCOCHRKBje+tGkdaJ4MWjnB0x7TwdDQm912XpbLzLC-u7qx3Q@mail.gmail.com>
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
Message-ID: <de31c7ed-84ee-a797-087f-9cabee3cba5c@cisco.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2017 22:43:06 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] AD review of draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05
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On 10/9/2017 7:08 PM, Andy Bierman wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 9:56 AM, Mahesh Jethanandani 
> <mjethanandani@gmail.com <mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>>     On Oct 5, 2017, at 1:13 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com
>>     <mailto:bclaise@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     Dear all,
>>
>>     Here is my AD review for draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.
>>
>>     There are no YANG module dependencies to publish this document:
>>     https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules
>>     <https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules>[]=ietf-netconf-acm
>>     => select "Dependencies only"
>>     The YANG module validates correctly:
>>     https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.php?module=ietf-netconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang
>>     <https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.php?module=ietf-netconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang>
>>     No more issues:
>>     https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis
>>     <https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis>
>>     The diffs with RFC 6536 are minor.
>>     http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=https://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6536.txt&url2=https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.txt
>>     <http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=https://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6536.txt&url2=https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.txt>
>>
>>     Very good so far.
>>
>>     There are however two issues:
>>     - You should either remove NETCONF or add RESTCONF to the
>>     document title.
>
>     There was an effort to disentangle NACM from NETCONF protocol here
>     <https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg12966.html>.
>     I guess we missed it in the title. What would form a good title?
>     "Network Configuration Access Control Moduleâ€?
>
>
> fine
Fine with me too.
>
>     That still leaves us with the acronym NACM currently defined as
>     NETCONF Access Control Module. Shouldn't that be updated too?
>
>
>
> no
>
> The acronym has been out there for a long time
> and some people know what it means.
ok.
>
>>     - Update the Security Considerations based on the new template.
>>
>>     Editorial:
>>     This document thought of the NMDA/revised datastore architecture
>>     [I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores
>>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores>].
>>     After all, it's a normative reference ... just for the
>>     definition. However, I don't clearly see this message. Should we
>>     clearly mention that point in section 2.4 or section 3.2/3.2.1.
>>     <http://3.2.1.>
>>     For example:
>>         The same access control rules apply to all datastores that support
>>         NACM, for example, the candidate configuration datastore or the
>>         running configuration datastore.
>>     NEW:
>>         The same access control rules apply to all datastores that support
>>         NACM, including the ones following the Network Management Datastore
>>         Architecture [I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores
>>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores>], for example ...
>     The question of referencing the datastore draft was brought up by
>     Andy here
>     <https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg12743.html>,
>     and the agreement (from Tom) was that a normative reference would
>     be just fine, along with the change in the statement that
>     references the candidate and running datastores as examples.
>
>
>
> I don't think the new text helps or solves any ambiguity
Ok, let's leave the text as it was.

Regards, Benoit
>
>>     Regards, Benoit
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Netconf mailing list
>>     Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>     <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf>
>
>     Mahesh Jethanandani
>     mjethanandani@gmail.com <mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Netconf mailing list
>     Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>     <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf>
>
>


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/9/2017 7:08 PM, Andy Bierman
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABCOCHRKBje+tGkdaJ4MWjnB0x7TwdDQm912XpbLzLC-u7qx3Q@mail.gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
      <div dir="ltr"><br>
        <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
          <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 9:56 AM,
            Mahesh Jethanandani <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a
                href="mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" target="_blank"
                moz-do-not-send="true">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <div style="word-wrap:break-word"><br>
                <div>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div>On Oct 5, 2017, at 1:13 AM, Benoit Claise &lt;<a
                        href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target="_blank"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;
                      wrote:</div>
                    <br
                      class="m_3065589058806360780Apple-interchange-newline">
                    <div>
                      <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> Dear all,<br>
                        <br>
                        Here is my AD review for
                        draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-<wbr>05.<br>
                        <br>
                        There are no YANG module dependencies to publish
                        this document:<br>
                        Â Â Â 
                        <a
                          class="m_3065589058806360780moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.yangcatalog.org/<wbr>yang-search/impact_analysis.<wbr>php?modules</a>[]=ietf-netconf-acm
                        =&gt; select "Dependencies only"<br>
                        The YANG module validates correctly:<br>
                        Â Â Â 
                        <a
                          class="m_3065589058806360780moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.php?module=ietf-netconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.yangcatalog.org/<wbr>yang-search/module_details.<wbr>php?module=ietf-netconf-acm@<wbr>2017-09-13.yang</a><br>
                        No more issues:<br>
                        Â Â Â  <a
                          class="m_3065589058806360780moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis" target="_blank"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">https://github.com/netconf-wg/<wbr>rfc6536bis</a><br>
                        The diffs with RFC 6536 are minor.<br>
                        Â Â Â 
                        <a
                          class="m_3065589058806360780moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=https://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6536.txt&amp;url2=https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.txt"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/<wbr>rfcdiff.pyht?url1=https://<wbr>tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6536.<wbr>txt&amp;url2=https://tools.ietf.<wbr>org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-<wbr>rfc6536bis-05.txt</a><br>
                        <br>
                        Very good so far.<br>
                        <br>
                        There are however two issues:<br>
                        - You should either remove NETCONF or add
                        RESTCONF to the document title.<br>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  There was an effort to disentangle NACM from NETCONF
                  protocolÂ <a
href="https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg12966.html"
                    target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">here</a>. I
                  guess we missed it in the title. What would form a
                  good title? "Network Configuration Access Control
                  Moduleâ€?</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>fine</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    Fine with me too.<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABCOCHRKBje+tGkdaJ4MWjnB0x7TwdDQm912XpbLzLC-u7qx3Q@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div class="gmail_extra">
          <div class="gmail_quote">
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Â </div>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <div style="word-wrap:break-word">
                <div>That still leaves us with the acronym NACM
                  currently defined as NETCONF Access Control Module.
                  Shouldn't that be updated too?</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>no</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>The acronym has been out there for a long time</div>
            <div>and some people know what it means.</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    ok.<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABCOCHRKBje+tGkdaJ4MWjnB0x7TwdDQm912XpbLzLC-u7qx3Q@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div class="gmail_extra">
          <div class="gmail_quote">
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Â </div>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <div style="word-wrap:break-word">
                <div>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div>
                      <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> - Update
                        the Security Considerations based on the new
                        template.<br>
                        <br>
                        Editorial:<br>
                        This document thought of the NMDA/revised
                        datastore architecture [<a
href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-<wbr>datastores</a>].
                        After all, it's a normative reference ... just
                        for the definition. However, I don't clearly see
                        this message. Should we clearly mention that
                        point in section 2.4 or section 3.2/<a
                          href="http://3.2.1." target="_blank"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">3.2.1.</a> <br>
                        For example: <br>
                        <pre class="m_3065589058806360780newpage">   The same access control rules apply to all datastores that support
   NACM, for example, the candidate configuration datastore or the
   running configuration datastore.</pre>
                        NEW:<br>
                        <pre class="m_3065589058806360780newpage">   The same access control rules apply to all datastores that support
   NACM, including the ones following the Network Management Datastore
   Architecture [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-<wbr>datastores</a>], for example ... 
</pre>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  The question of referencing the datastore draft was
                  brought up by AndyÂ <a
href="https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg12743.html"
                    target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">here</a>, and
                  the agreement (from Tom) was that a normative
                  reference would be just fine, along with the change in
                  the statement that references the candidate and
                  running datastores as examples.<br>
                </div>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>I don't think the new text helps or solves any
              ambiguity</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    Ok, let's leave the text as it was.<br>
    <br>
    Regards, Benoit<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABCOCHRKBje+tGkdaJ4MWjnB0x7TwdDQm912XpbLzLC-u7qx3Q@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div class="gmail_extra">
          <div class="gmail_quote">
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Â </div>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <div style="word-wrap:break-word">
                <div>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div>
                      <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> Regards,
                        Benoit<br>
                      </div>
                      ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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                <span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
                    <div>
                      <div>Mahesh Jethanandani</div>
                      <div><a href="mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a></div>
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                      <br
                        class="m_3065589058806360780Apple-interchange-newline">
                    </div>
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            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
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            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Andy</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Â </div>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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From nobody Mon Oct  9 14:20:48 2017
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From: Per Hedeland <per@tail-f.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
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Just to be clear: what we're suggesting is that you can use the
already-existing standard NETCONF XPath capability to achieve the desired
result - see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6241#section-8.9

--Per

On 2017-10-09 21:52, Igor Bryskin wrote:
> I agree. For example, a leafref may point not to a singls entity, but to a list of entities, and the client might want to expand all of them into the joint get response.
> 
> Igor
> 
> *From:*Per Hedeland
> *To:*Martin Bjorklund,
> *Cc:*Igor Bryskin,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org,
> *Date:*2017-10-09 15:12:22
> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
> 
> On 2017-10-09 19:13, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
>> Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Per,
>>>
>>> Basically, what we need is a way for a client to request something
>>> like this:
>>>
>>> get <XPath> joint with <XPath1, XPath2, ..., XPathn>
>> 
>> ... which is what Per's expression does!  Note that "|" in XPath means
>> "union".
>> 
>> But as Per explained, it only works in some cases (when the leafref
>> acts a "single pointer").
> 
> Well, that particular expression works only in that case - but since it
> is effectively the client that (perhaps based on the data model) decides
> what the leafref-leafs "mean" (in this case the single key of a single
> list), other cases can be handled the same way. E.g. multiple
> leafref-to-key leafs that together give the keys of a multi-key list
> just amounts to a slightly hairier XPath filter...
> 
> --Per
> 
>>> with a server interpreting the request as follows:
>>> if a node pointed by XPath contains a pointer (e.g. key leafref)
>>> matching one of the XPath from the "joint with" list, then the server
>>> must provide the entire body of the node pointed by the pointer,
>>> otherwise, just the pointer (as it happens today, that is, when no
>>> "joint with" list specified).
>>>
>>> We think that this would allow for the client to optimize the number
>>> of request-response iterations depending on application/use case.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Igor
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> /martin
>> 
>> 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Per Hedeland [mailto:per@tail-f.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 12:06 PM
>>> To: Xufeng Liu
>>> Cc: Igor Bryskin; netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>> leafref
>>>
>>> I understand your use case, but a leaf of type leafref does not in
>>> general identify a single node in the data tree - the leafref path
>>> could
>>> be for a non-key leaf, and/or the path could traverse list nodes,
>>> and/or
>>> the "target" list could have multiple keys and thus multiple
>>> leafref-leafs be required to identify a specific list entry.
>>>
>>> Thus it seems to me that your use case is not a reasonable basis for a
>>> new protocol operation. My XPath foo isn't very good either, but I do
>>> believe Robert's suggestion of using an XPath filter could be a way
>>> forward. I *think* the filter expression would be something along the
>>> lines of
>>>
>>>   /te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo'] |
>>>   /te/explicit-paths/explicit-path[name=/te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo']/paths/path/explicit-path]
>>>
>>> --Per
>>>
>>> On 2017-10-09 15:42, Xufeng Liu wrote:
>>>> Hi Per,
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Igor Bryskin [mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com]
>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, October 8, 2017 7:04 PM
>>>> *To:* Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>; per@tail-f.com;
>>>> *xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com
>>>> *Cc:* netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>>> *leafref
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Joel,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, I think I didnt explain our problem correctly.
>>>>
>>>> In our case we have a leafref pointing to a te tunnel name, which
>>>> happens to be a key to lookup the (axilary) tunnel.  We need a way to
>>>> include the entire tunnel body (not just a name) into the get
>>>> response. This is to optimize the number of iterations between the
>>>> client and the server. As Xufeng put it something similar to SQL join,
>>>>
>>>> Igor
>>>>
>>>> *From:*Igor Bryskin
>>>>
>>>> *To:*per@tail-f.com,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,
>>>>
>>>> *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org,
>>>>
>>>> *Date:*2017-10-08 17:36:47
>>>>
>>>> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>>> *leafref
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>
>>>> Hi Per,
>>>>
>>>> In a nutshell we would lika for a netconf client to have a way to
>>>> instruct the server on whether in response to the get request the
>>>> server needs to provide the entire body of a datastore node pointed
>>>> to by a leafref or just a pointer to said node, so that the node's
>>>> body could be retrieved by a subsequent separate request. This is
>>>> requested by implementors who want to optimise rhe number of
>>>> interactions between a client and its server.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Igor
>>>>
>>>> *From:*Per Hedeland
>>>>
>>>> *To:*Xufeng Liu,
>>>>
>>>> *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,'NetMod WG',
>>>>
>>>> *Date:*2017-10-08 14:01:27
>>>>
>>>> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>>> *leafref
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>
>>>> On 2017-10-06 23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:
>>>>> During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS YANG modeling, we
>>>>> have received a request from implementers: How to minimize the number
>>>>> of NETCONF/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation efficiency?
>>>>> Especially for the case when the operator or client software needs to
>>>>> retrieve the object contents pointed by a leafref.
>>>>>
>>>>> For example, given the following simplified TE tunnel model,
>>>>>
>>>>> +--rw te
>>>>>
>>>>>       +--rw explicit-paths
>>>>>
>>>>>       |  +--rw explicit-path* [name]
>>>>>
>>>>>       |     +--rw name                      string
>>>>>
>>>>>       |        +--rw explicit-route-object* [index]
>>>>>
>>>>>       |           +--rw index                   uint32
>>>>>
>>>>>       |           +--rw explicit-route-usage?   identityref
>>>>>
>>>>>       +--rw tunnels
>>>>>
>>>>>       |  +--rw tunnel* [name]
>>>>>
>>>>>       |  |  +--rw name                   string
>>>>>
>>>>>       |  |  +--rw paths
>>>>>
>>>>>       |  |  |  +--rw path* [name]
>>>>>
>>>>> |  |  |     +--rw explicit-path?  ->
>>>>> |  |  |     ../../../../../explicit-paths/explicit-path/name
>>>>>
>>>>> when the client tries to retrieve a tunnels information based on the
>>>>> tunnel name, the get operation returns a list of leafrefs pointing
>>>>> to the paths of the tunnel.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you explain exactly what your
>>>> "get" request is (protocol and payload), and where the "list of
>>>> leafref's" (whatever that may be) occurs in the reply?
>>>>
>>>> */[Xufeng] The get operation is the NETCONF/RESTCON <get> protocol
>>>> *operation, or the <get-data> operation described in
>>>> *https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01 and the GET
>>>> *operations
>>>> on {+restconf}/ds/<datastore> described in
>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00./*
>>>>
>>>> */ /*
>>>>
>>>> */We have a list of leafref values because in this example model, each
>>>> *tunnel contains a list of paths, each of them contains a leafref. The
>>>> *get returns a value for each instance of such a leafref,
>>>> which (as a string value) will be used as a constraint (foreign key)
>>>> to retrieve the instance of an explicit-path in the model above./*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> JFYI, in case there is some fundamental misunderstanding here: a leaf
>>>> of
>>>> type leafref has a single value - *one* of those that satisfy the
>>>> leafref
>>>> constraint, in case there are multiple "candidates".
>>>>
>>>> --Per
>>>>
>>>>> The client needs to issue at
>>>>> least one more get operation to retrieve the path information about
>>>>> the given tunnel. The request is to combine these two operations into
>>>>> one.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the RDBMS SQL world, join can be used when SQL select is
>>>>> performed, but NETCONF/YANG currently does not have this capability.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wed like to ask whether such a request is considered reasonable.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the request is reasonable, the next question is how to
>>>>> proceed. This seems to be a protocol issue rather than YANG modeling
>>>>> issue. Is it acceptable to add a new operation to achieve such a
>>>>> <get-data> operation with expanded leafrefs?
>>>>>
>>>>> Comments and suggestions are appreciated.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> - Xufeng
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> netmod mailing list
>>>>> netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Netconf mailing list
>>>> Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Netconf mailing list
>>> Netconf@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>>
> 


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Changed milestone "Submit RFC 6536bis to AD/IESG for consideration as
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
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Hi Per,

This is a good news, but, please, help us out.=20
Consider, we have a node - "te-tunnel" - which among other attributes has t=
wo key leafref lists:
1) each member of the 1st list points to a "connection" supporting the te-t=
unnel. All connections supporting all te-tunnels are stored in a single lis=
t of connections.=20
2) each member of the 2nd list points to a supporting "te-tunnel" - the te-=
tunnel in question depends on. All te=3Dtunnels including the te-tunnel in =
question, are stored in a single list of te-tunnels.

The question: how the client can retrieve via a single request all attribut=
es of the te-tunnel in question along with all parameters of all connection=
s supporting the te-tunnel, but with just pointers to supporting te-tunnels=
 (so that the interested client can use the pointers to retrieve full data =
via subsequent separate requests) ?

Likewise, how the client can ask for full data of the te-tunnel and all sup=
porting te-tunnels and just pointers for supporting connections?

I really appreciate your help,

Igor  =20

=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Per Hedeland [mailto:per@tail-f.com]=20
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 5:21 PM
To: Igor Bryskin
Cc: mbj@tail-f.com; xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com; netconf@ietf.org; netmod@iet=
f.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref

Just to be clear: what we're suggesting is that you can use the
already-existing standard NETCONF XPath capability to achieve the desired
result - see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6241#section-8.9

--Per

On 2017-10-09 21:52, Igor Bryskin wrote:
> I agree. For example, a leafref may point not to a singls entity, but to =
a list of entities, and the client might want to expand all of them into th=
e joint get response.
>=20
> Igor
>=20
> *From:*Per Hedeland
> *To:*Martin Bjorklund,
> *Cc:*Igor Bryskin,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.=
org,
> *Date:*2017-10-09 15:12:22
> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafre=
f
>=20
> On 2017-10-09 19:13, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
>> Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Per,
>>>
>>> Basically, what we need is a way for a client to request something
>>> like this:
>>>
>>> get <XPath> joint with <XPath1, XPath2, ..., XPathn>
>>=20
>> ... which is what Per's expression does!  Note that "|" in XPath means
>> "union".
>>=20
>> But as Per explained, it only works in some cases (when the leafref
>> acts a "single pointer").
>=20
> Well, that particular expression works only in that case - but since it
> is effectively the client that (perhaps based on the data model) decides
> what the leafref-leafs "mean" (in this case the single key of a single
> list), other cases can be handled the same way. E.g. multiple
> leafref-to-key leafs that together give the keys of a multi-key list
> just amounts to a slightly hairier XPath filter...
>=20
> --Per
>=20
>>> with a server interpreting the request as follows:
>>> if a node pointed by XPath contains a pointer (e.g. key leafref)
>>> matching one of the XPath from the "joint with" list, then the server
>>> must provide the entire body of the node pointed by the pointer,
>>> otherwise, just the pointer (as it happens today, that is, when no
>>> "joint with" list specified).
>>>
>>> We think that this would allow for the client to optimize the number
>>> of request-response iterations depending on application/use case.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Igor
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> /martin
>>=20
>>=20
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Per Hedeland [mailto:per@tail-f.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 12:06 PM
>>> To: Xufeng Liu
>>> Cc: Igor Bryskin; netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>> leafref
>>>
>>> I understand your use case, but a leaf of type leafref does not in
>>> general identify a single node in the data tree - the leafref path
>>> could
>>> be for a non-key leaf, and/or the path could traverse list nodes,
>>> and/or
>>> the "target" list could have multiple keys and thus multiple
>>> leafref-leafs be required to identify a specific list entry.
>>>
>>> Thus it seems to me that your use case is not a reasonable basis for a
>>> new protocol operation. My XPath foo isn't very good either, but I do
>>> believe Robert's suggestion of using an XPath filter could be a way
>>> forward. I *think* the filter expression would be something along the
>>> lines of
>>>
>>>   /te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo'] |
>>>   /te/explicit-paths/explicit-path[name=3D/te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'fo=
o']/paths/path/explicit-path]
>>>
>>> --Per
>>>
>>> On 2017-10-09 15:42, Xufeng Liu wrote:
>>>> Hi Per,
>>>>
>>>>  =20
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Igor Bryskin [mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com]
>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, October 8, 2017 7:04 PM
>>>> *To:* Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>; per@tail-f.com;
>>>> *xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com
>>>> *Cc:* netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>>> *leafref
>>>>
>>>>  =20
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Joel,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, I think I didnt explain our problem correctly.
>>>>
>>>> In our case we have a leafref pointing to a te tunnel name, which
>>>> happens to be a key to lookup the (axilary) tunnel.  We need a way to
>>>> include the entire tunnel body (not just a name) into the get
>>>> response. This is to optimize the number of iterations between the
>>>> client and the server. As Xufeng put it something similar to SQL join,
>>>>
>>>> Igor
>>>>
>>>> *From:*Igor Bryskin
>>>>
>>>> *To:*per@tail-f.com,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,
>>>>
>>>> *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org,
>>>>
>>>> *Date:*2017-10-08 17:36:47
>>>>
>>>> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>>> *leafref
>>>>
>>>>  =20
>>>>
>>>> Hi Per,
>>>>
>>>> In a nutshell we would lika for a netconf client to have a way to
>>>> instruct the server on whether in response to the get request the
>>>> server needs to provide the entire body of a datastore node pointed
>>>> to by a leafref or just a pointer to said node, so that the node's
>>>> body could be retrieved by a subsequent separate request. This is
>>>> requested by implementors who want to optimise rhe number of
>>>> interactions between a client and its server.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Igor
>>>>
>>>> *From:*Per Hedeland
>>>>
>>>> *To:*Xufeng Liu,
>>>>
>>>> *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,'NetMod WG',
>>>>
>>>> *Date:*2017-10-08 14:01:27
>>>>
>>>> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>>> *leafref
>>>>
>>>>  =20
>>>>
>>>> On 2017-10-06 23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:
>>>>> During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS YANG modeling, we
>>>>> have received a request from implementers: How to minimize the number
>>>>> of NETCONF/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation efficiency?
>>>>> Especially for the case when the operator or client software needs to
>>>>> retrieve the object contents pointed by a leafref.
>>>>>
>>>>> For example, given the following simplified TE tunnel model,
>>>>>
>>>>> +--rw te
>>>>>
>>>>>       +--rw explicit-paths
>>>>>
>>>>>       |  +--rw explicit-path* [name]
>>>>>
>>>>>       |     +--rw name                      string
>>>>>
>>>>>       |        +--rw explicit-route-object* [index]
>>>>>
>>>>>       |           +--rw index                   uint32
>>>>>
>>>>>       |           +--rw explicit-route-usage?   identityref
>>>>>
>>>>>       +--rw tunnels
>>>>>
>>>>>       |  +--rw tunnel* [name]
>>>>>
>>>>>       |  |  +--rw name                   string
>>>>>
>>>>>       |  |  +--rw paths
>>>>>
>>>>>       |  |  |  +--rw path* [name]
>>>>>
>>>>> |  |  |     +--rw explicit-path?  ->
>>>>> |  |  |     ../../../../../explicit-paths/explicit-path/name
>>>>>
>>>>> when the client tries to retrieve a tunnels information based on the
>>>>> tunnel name, the =1Cget operation returns a list of leafrefs pointing
>>>>> to the paths of the tunnel.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you explain exactly what your
>>>> "get" request is (protocol and payload), and where the "list of
>>>> leafref's" (whatever that may be) occurs in the reply?
>>>>
>>>> */[Xufeng] The =1Cget=1D operation is the NETCONF/RESTCON <get> protoc=
ol
>>>> *operation, or the <get-data> operation described in
>>>> *https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01 and the GET
>>>> *operations
>>>> on {+restconf}/ds/<datastore> described in
>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00./*
>>>>
>>>> */ /*
>>>>
>>>> */We have a list of leafref values because in this example model, each
>>>> *tunnel contains a list of paths, each of them contains a leafref. The
>>>> *=1Cget=1D returns a value for each instance of such a leafref,
>>>> which (as a string value) will be used as a constraint (foreign key)
>>>> to retrieve the instance of an explicit-path in the model above./*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> JFYI, in case there is some fundamental misunderstanding here: a leaf
>>>> of
>>>> type leafref has a single value - *one* of those that satisfy the
>>>> leafref
>>>> constraint, in case there are multiple "candidates".
>>>>
>>>> --Per
>>>>
>>>>> The client needs to issue at
>>>>> least one more =1Cget operation to retrieve the path information abou=
t
>>>>> the given tunnel. The request is to combine these two operations into
>>>>> one.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the RDBMS SQL world, =1Cjoin can be used when SQL =1Cselect is
>>>>> performed, but NETCONF/YANG currently does not have this capability.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wed like to ask whether such a request is considered reasonable.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the request is reasonable, the next question is how to
>>>>> proceed. This seems to be a protocol issue rather than YANG modeling
>>>>> issue. Is it acceptable to add a new operation to achieve such a
>>>>> <get-data> operation with expanded leafrefs?
>>>>>
>>>>> Comments and suggestions are appreciated.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> - Xufeng
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> netmod mailing list
>>>>> netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Netconf mailing list
>>>> Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Netconf mailing list
>>> Netconf@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>>
>=20


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Subject: Re: [Netconf] AD review of draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05
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Andy,

Please address the comment from Radek in the updated draft along with =
the changes agreed to in this draft.

Thanks.

> On Oct 9, 2017, at 10:08 AM, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 9:56 AM, Mahesh Jethanandani =
<mjethanandani@gmail.com <mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com>> wrote:
>=20
>> On Oct 5, 2017, at 1:13 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com =
<mailto:bclaise@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> Dear all,
>>=20
>> Here is my AD review for draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.
>>=20
>> There are no YANG module dependencies to publish this document:
>>     =
https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules =
<https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules>[]=3D=
ietf-netconf-acm =3D> select "Dependencies only"
>> The YANG module validates correctly:
>>     =
https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.php?module=3Dietf-n=
etconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang =
<https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.php?module=3Dietf-=
netconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang>
>> No more issues:
>>     https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis =
<https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis>
>> The diffs with RFC 6536 are minor.
>>     =
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.org/rfc=
/rfc6536.txt&url2=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bi=
s-05.txt =
<http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.org/rf=
c/rfc6536.txt&url2=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536b=
is-05.txt>
>>=20
>> Very good so far.
>>=20
>> There are however two issues:
>> - You should either remove NETCONF or add RESTCONF to the document =
title.
>=20
> There was an effort to disentangle NACM from NETCONF protocol here =
<https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg12966.html>. I =
guess we missed it in the title. What would form a good title? "Network =
Configuration Access Control Module=E2=80=9D?
>=20
>=20
> fine
>=20
> =20
> That still leaves us with the acronym NACM currently defined as =
NETCONF Access Control Module. Shouldn't that be updated too?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> no
>=20
> The acronym has been out there for a long time
> and some people know what it means.
>=20
> =20
>> - Update the Security Considerations based on the new template.
>>=20
>> Editorial:
>> This document thought of the NMDA/revised datastore architecture =
[I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf=
-netmod-revised-datastores>]. After all, it's a normative reference ... =
just for the definition. However, I don't clearly see this message. =
Should we clearly mention that point in section 2.4 or section =
3.2/3.2.1. <http://3.2.1./>=20
>> For example:=20
>>    The same access control rules apply to all datastores that support
>>    NACM, for example, the candidate configuration datastore or the
>>    running configuration datastore.
>> NEW:
>>    The same access control rules apply to all datastores that support
>>    NACM, including the ones following the Network Management =
Datastore
>>    Architecture [I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf=
-netmod-revised-datastores>], for example ...=20
> The question of referencing the datastore draft was brought up by Andy =
here =
<https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg12743.html>, =
and the agreement (from Tom) was that a normative reference would be =
just fine, along with the change in the statement that references the =
candidate and running datastores as examples.
>=20
>=20
> I don't think the new text helps or solves any ambiguity
>=20
> =20
>> Regards, Benoit
>> _______________________________________________
>> Netconf mailing list
>> Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf>
>=20
> Mahesh Jethanandani
> mjethanandani@gmail.com <mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com>
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Andy
>=20
> =20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf>
>=20
>=20

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com




--Apple-Mail=_3934AEE3-32E3-4DEF-B55C-34F71B22CC14
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Andy,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Please address the comment from Radek in the updated draft =
along with the changes agreed to in this draft.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thanks.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Oct 9, 2017, at 10:08 AM, Andy Bierman &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" class=3D"">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 9:56 AM, =
Mahesh Jethanandani <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Oct =
5, 2017, at 1:13 AM, Benoit Claise &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"m_3065589058806360780Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">
 =20

   =20
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" class=3D"">
    Dear all,<br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    Here is my AD review for draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-<wbr =
class=3D"">05.<br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    There are no YANG module dependencies to publish this document:<br =
class=3D"">
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a class=3D"m_3065589058806360780moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?module=
s" target=3D"_blank">https://www.yangcatalog.org/<wbr =
class=3D"">yang-search/impact_analysis.<wbr =
class=3D"">php?modules</a>[]=3Dietf-netconf-acm
    =3D&gt; select "Dependencies only"<br class=3D"">
    The YANG module validates correctly:<br class=3D"">
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a class=3D"m_3065589058806360780moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.php?module=3D=
ietf-netconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.yangcatalog.org/<wbr =
class=3D"">yang-search/module_details.<wbr =
class=3D"">php?module=3Dietf-netconf-acm@<wbr =
class=3D"">2017-09-13.yang</a><br class=3D"">
    No more issues:<br class=3D"">
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a =
class=3D"m_3065589058806360780moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis" =
target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/netconf-wg/<wbr =
class=3D"">rfc6536bis</a><br class=3D"">
    The diffs with RFC 6536 are minor.<br class=3D"">
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a class=3D"m_3065589058806360780moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=3Dhttps://tools.ietf=
.org/rfc/rfc6536.txt&amp;url2=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-netco=
nf-rfc6536bis-05.txt" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/<wbr =
class=3D"">rfcdiff.pyht?url1=3Dhttps://<wbr =
class=3D"">tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6536.<wbr =
class=3D"">txt&amp;url2=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.<wbr =
class=3D"">org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-<wbr =
class=3D"">rfc6536bis-05.txt</a><br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    Very good so far.<br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    There are however two issues:<br class=3D"">
    - You should either remove NETCONF or add RESTCONF to the document
    title.<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>There was an effort to disentangle NACM from NETCONF =
protocol&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg12966.htm=
l" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">here</a>. I guess we missed it in the =
title. What would form a good title? "Network Configuration Access =
Control Module=E2=80=9D?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">fine</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">That still leaves us =
with the acronym NACM currently defined as NETCONF Access Control =
Module. Shouldn't that be updated too?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">no</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">The acronym has been out there for a long time</div><div =
class=3D"">and some people know what it means.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" class=3D"">
    - Update the Security Considerations based on the new template.<br =
class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    Editorial:<br class=3D"">
    This document thought of the NMDA/revised datastore architecture [<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I=
-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-<wbr class=3D"">datastores</a>].
    After all, it's a normative reference ... just for the definition.
    However, I don't clearly see this message. Should we clearly mention
    that point in section 2.4 or section 3.2/<a href=3D"http://3.2.1./" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">3.2.1.</a> <br class=3D"">
    For example: <br class=3D"">
    <pre class=3D"m_3065589058806360780newpage">   The same access =
control rules apply to all datastores that support
   NACM, for example, the candidate configuration datastore or the
   running configuration datastore.</pre>
    NEW:<br class=3D"">
    <pre class=3D"m_3065589058806360780newpage">   The same access =
control rules apply to all datastores that support
   NACM, including the ones following the Network Management Datastore
   Architecture [<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I=
-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-<wbr class=3D"">datastores</a>], for =
example ...=20
</pre></div></div></blockquote>The question of referencing the datastore =
draft was brought up by Andy&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg12743.htm=
l" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">here</a>, and the agreement (from Tom) =
was that a normative reference would be just fine, along with the change =
in the statement that references the candidate and running datastores as =
examples.<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
don't think the new text helps or solves any ambiguity</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"m_3065589058806360780newpage"></pre>
    Regards, Benoit<br class=3D"">
  </div>

______________________________<wbr class=3D"">_________________<br =
class=3D"">Netconf mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Netconf@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr =
class=3D"">listinfo/netconf</a><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font =
color=3D"#888888" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></font></span></div></blockquote></div><span =
class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888" class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Mahesh Jethanandani</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D"m_3065589058806360780Apple-interchange-newline">

</div>
<br class=3D""></font></span></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Andy</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font =
color=3D"#888888" class=3D""></font></span></div><br =
class=3D"">______________________________<wbr =
class=3D"">_________________<br class=3D"">
Netconf mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org" class=3D"">Netconf@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr =
class=3D"">listinfo/netconf</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D""></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Mahesh Jethanandani</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">

</div>
<br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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This closes the WG adoption call for this draft. It received strong =
support, so is adopted as a WG document.

Authors please repost the draft with just a name change to =
draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf (and no other change).

Thanks.

> On Sep 23, 2017, at 10:18 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani =
<mjethanandani@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> The NETCONF NDMA draft was presented an discussed in IETF 99 in =
Prague. The authors agreed to provide an update, which they did with -01 =
version of the draft. The authors believe the document is ready for WG =
adoption.
>=20
> This starts a two week call to adopt NETCONF NDMA draft as a WG =
document. Since the focus of the draft is NDMA compliance, it falls =
within the charter of the WG.
>=20
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01>
>=20
> Please indicate whether you think this draft should be adopted as a WG =
item. If you have objections to it being adopted, please state your =
reasons by responding on this thread.
>=20
> Thanks.

Mahesh & Kent




--Apple-Mail=_7C40BDEE-72C6-42EC-94AD-4CF8B56E00FA
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">This closes the WG adoption call for this draft. It received =
strong support, so is adopted as a WG document.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Authors please repost the draft with =
just a name change to draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf (and no other =
change).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thanks.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Sep 23, 2017, at 10:18 PM, =
Mahesh Jethanandani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html charset=3Dus-ascii" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">The NETCONF =
NDMA draft was presented an discussed in IETF 99 in Prague. The authors =
agreed to provide an update, which they did with -01 version of the =
draft. The authors believe the document is ready for WG adoption.<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This starts a two week =
call to adopt NETCONF NDMA draft as a WG document. Since the focus of =
the draft is NDMA compliance, it falls within the charter of the WG.<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01</a><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Please =
indicate whether you think this draft should be adopted as a WG item. If =
you have objections to it being adopted, please state your reasons by =
responding on this thread.<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thanks.</div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><=
br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Mahesh &amp; Kent</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">

</div>
<br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Mon Oct  9 23:04:30 2017
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To: Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>
Cc: "mbj@tail-f.com" <mbj@tail-f.com>, "xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com" <xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
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From: Per Hedeland <per@tail-f.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
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I already showed you an XPath filter expression that will do what you
originally asked for, i.e. retrieve the data for a tunnel and the
associated 'explicit-path's in a single request, based on the
(simplified) data model that you provided. What you are describing now
seems like just variations on the theme - as I wrote, it is the client
that decides, via the XPath expression, which leafref-leafs that should
be "dereferenced" for selection of additional data.

I'm afraid I don't have the time to craft XPath expressions for each and
every one of your use cases (and I wouldn't trust them to be correct
without testing anyway). I also provided a link to the definition of the
XPath capability in the NETCONF spec. XPath itself is well-established
technology, not specific to NETCONF or YANG. I suggest that you consult
the specification at http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-xpath-19991116 and/or
one of the many tutorials or even books dedicated to the subject - I
don't have any specific recommendations for the latter, but maybe
someone else does.

--Per

On 2017-10-10 00:11, Igor Bryskin wrote:
> Hi Per,
> 
> This is a good news, but, please, help us out.
> Consider, we have a node - "te-tunnel" - which among other attributes has two key leafref lists:
> 1) each member of the 1st list points to a "connection" supporting the te-tunnel. All connections supporting all te-tunnels are stored in a single list of connections.
> 2) each member of the 2nd list points to a supporting "te-tunnel" - the te-tunnel in question depends on. All te=tunnels including the te-tunnel in question, are stored in a single list of te-tunnels.
> 
> The question: how the client can retrieve via a single request all attributes of the te-tunnel in question along with all parameters of all connections supporting the te-tunnel, but with just pointers to supporting te-tunnels (so that the interested client can use the pointers to retrieve full data via subsequent separate requests) ?
> 
> Likewise, how the client can ask for full data of the te-tunnel and all supporting te-tunnels and just pointers for supporting connections?
>
> I really appreciate your help,
> 
> Igor
> 
>   
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Per Hedeland [mailto:per@tail-f.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 5:21 PM
> To: Igor Bryskin
> Cc: mbj@tail-f.com; xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com; netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
> 
> Just to be clear: what we're suggesting is that you can use the
> already-existing standard NETCONF XPath capability to achieve the desired
> result - see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6241#section-8.9
> 
> --Per
> 
> On 2017-10-09 21:52, Igor Bryskin wrote:
>> I agree. For example, a leafref may point not to a singls entity, but to a list of entities, and the client might want to expand all of them into the joint get response.
>>
>> Igor
>>
>> *From:*Per Hedeland
>> *To:*Martin Bjorklund,
>> *Cc:*Igor Bryskin,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org,
>> *Date:*2017-10-09 15:12:22
>> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
>>
>> On 2017-10-09 19:13, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
>>> Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Per,
>>>>
>>>> Basically, what we need is a way for a client to request something
>>>> like this:
>>>>
>>>> get <XPath> joint with <XPath1, XPath2, ..., XPathn>
>>>
>>> ... which is what Per's expression does!  Note that "|" in XPath means
>>> "union".
>>>
>>> But as Per explained, it only works in some cases (when the leafref
>>> acts a "single pointer").
>>
>> Well, that particular expression works only in that case - but since it
>> is effectively the client that (perhaps based on the data model) decides
>> what the leafref-leafs "mean" (in this case the single key of a single
>> list), other cases can be handled the same way. E.g. multiple
>> leafref-to-key leafs that together give the keys of a multi-key list
>> just amounts to a slightly hairier XPath filter...
>>
>> --Per
>>
>>>> with a server interpreting the request as follows:
>>>> if a node pointed by XPath contains a pointer (e.g. key leafref)
>>>> matching one of the XPath from the "joint with" list, then the server
>>>> must provide the entire body of the node pointed by the pointer,
>>>> otherwise, just the pointer (as it happens today, that is, when no
>>>> "joint with" list specified).
>>>>
>>>> We think that this would allow for the client to optimize the number
>>>> of request-response iterations depending on application/use case.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Igor
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> /martin
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Per Hedeland [mailto:per@tail-f.com]
>>>> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 12:06 PM
>>>> To: Xufeng Liu
>>>> Cc: Igor Bryskin; netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>>> leafref
>>>>
>>>> I understand your use case, but a leaf of type leafref does not in
>>>> general identify a single node in the data tree - the leafref path
>>>> could
>>>> be for a non-key leaf, and/or the path could traverse list nodes,
>>>> and/or
>>>> the "target" list could have multiple keys and thus multiple
>>>> leafref-leafs be required to identify a specific list entry.
>>>>
>>>> Thus it seems to me that your use case is not a reasonable basis for a
>>>> new protocol operation. My XPath foo isn't very good either, but I do
>>>> believe Robert's suggestion of using an XPath filter could be a way
>>>> forward. I *think* the filter expression would be something along the
>>>> lines of
>>>>
>>>>    /te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo'] |
>>>>    /te/explicit-paths/explicit-path[name=/te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo']/paths/path/explicit-path]
>>>>
>>>> --Per
>>>>
>>>> On 2017-10-09 15:42, Xufeng Liu wrote:
>>>>> Hi Per,
>>>>>
>>>>>    
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Igor Bryskin [mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com]
>>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, October 8, 2017 7:04 PM
>>>>> *To:* Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>; per@tail-f.com;
>>>>> *xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com
>>>>> *Cc:* netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>>>> *leafref
>>>>>
>>>>>    
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Joel,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, I think I didnt explain our problem correctly.
>>>>>
>>>>> In our case we have a leafref pointing to a te tunnel name, which
>>>>> happens to be a key to lookup the (axilary) tunnel.  We need a way to
>>>>> include the entire tunnel body (not just a name) into the get
>>>>> response. This is to optimize the number of iterations between the
>>>>> client and the server. As Xufeng put it something similar to SQL join,
>>>>>
>>>>> Igor
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:*Igor Bryskin
>>>>>
>>>>> *To:*per@tail-f.com,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,
>>>>>
>>>>> *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org,
>>>>>
>>>>> *Date:*2017-10-08 17:36:47
>>>>>
>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>>>> *leafref
>>>>>
>>>>>    
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Per,
>>>>>
>>>>> In a nutshell we would lika for a netconf client to have a way to
>>>>> instruct the server on whether in response to the get request the
>>>>> server needs to provide the entire body of a datastore node pointed
>>>>> to by a leafref or just a pointer to said node, so that the node's
>>>>> body could be retrieved by a subsequent separate request. This is
>>>>> requested by implementors who want to optimise rhe number of
>>>>> interactions between a client and its server.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Igor
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:*Per Hedeland
>>>>>
>>>>> *To:*Xufeng Liu,
>>>>>
>>>>> *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,'NetMod WG',
>>>>>
>>>>> *Date:*2017-10-08 14:01:27
>>>>>
>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>>>> *leafref
>>>>>
>>>>>    
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2017-10-06 23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:
>>>>>> During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS YANG modeling, we
>>>>>> have received a request from implementers: How to minimize the number
>>>>>> of NETCONF/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation efficiency?
>>>>>> Especially for the case when the operator or client software needs to
>>>>>> retrieve the object contents pointed by a leafref.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For example, given the following simplified TE tunnel model,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +--rw te
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        +--rw explicit-paths
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |  +--rw explicit-path* [name]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |     +--rw name                      string
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |        +--rw explicit-route-object* [index]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |           +--rw index                   uint32
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |           +--rw explicit-route-usage?   identityref
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        +--rw tunnels
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |  +--rw tunnel* [name]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |  |  +--rw name                   string
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |  |  +--rw paths
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |  |  |  +--rw path* [name]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> |  |  |     +--rw explicit-path?  ->
>>>>>> |  |  |     ../../../../../explicit-paths/explicit-path/name
>>>>>>
>>>>>> when the client tries to retrieve a tunnels information based on the
>>>>>> tunnel name, the get operation returns a list of leafrefs pointing
>>>>>> to the paths of the tunnel.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you explain exactly what your
>>>>> "get" request is (protocol and payload), and where the "list of
>>>>> leafref's" (whatever that may be) occurs in the reply?
>>>>>
>>>>> */[Xufeng] The get operation is the NETCONF/RESTCON <get> protocol
>>>>> *operation, or the <get-data> operation described in
>>>>> *https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01 and the GET
>>>>> *operations
>>>>> on {+restconf}/ds/<datastore> described in
>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00./*
>>>>>
>>>>> */ /*
>>>>>
>>>>> */We have a list of leafref values because in this example model, each
>>>>> *tunnel contains a list of paths, each of them contains a leafref. The
>>>>> *get returns a value for each instance of such a leafref,
>>>>> which (as a string value) will be used as a constraint (foreign key)
>>>>> to retrieve the instance of an explicit-path in the model above./*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> JFYI, in case there is some fundamental misunderstanding here: a leaf
>>>>> of
>>>>> type leafref has a single value - *one* of those that satisfy the
>>>>> leafref
>>>>> constraint, in case there are multiple "candidates".
>>>>>
>>>>> --Per
>>>>>
>>>>>> The client needs to issue at
>>>>>> least one more get operation to retrieve the path information about
>>>>>> the given tunnel. The request is to combine these two operations into
>>>>>> one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the RDBMS SQL world, join can be used when SQL select is
>>>>>> performed, but NETCONF/YANG currently does not have this capability.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wed like to ask whether such a request is considered reasonable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the request is reasonable, the next question is how to
>>>>>> proceed. This seems to be a protocol issue rather than YANG modeling
>>>>>> issue. Is it acceptable to add a new operation to achieve such a
>>>>>> <get-data> operation with expanded leafrefs?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Comments and suggestions are appreciated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Xufeng
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> netmod mailing list
>>>>>> netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Netconf mailing list
>>>>> Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Netconf mailing list
>>>> Netconf@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>>>
>>
> 


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From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod]  Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
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Hi Igor,

On 09/10/2017 23:11, Igor Bryskin wrote:
> Hi Per,
>
> This is a good news, but, please, help us out.
> Consider, we have a node - "te-tunnel" - which among other attributes has two key leafref lists:
> 1) each member of the 1st list points to a "connection" supporting the te-tunnel. All connections supporting all te-tunnels are stored in a single list of connections.
> 2) each member of the 2nd list points to a supporting "te-tunnel" - the te-tunnel in question depends on. All te=tunnels including the te-tunnel in question, are stored in a single list of te-tunnels.
>
> The question: how the client can retrieve via a single request all attributes of the te-tunnel in question along with all parameters of all connections supporting the te-tunnel, but with just pointers to supporting te-tunnels (so that the interested client can use the pointers to retrieve full data via subsequent separate requests) ?
I think that it might be something like this (for tunnel name foo):

   /te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo'] |
   /te/connections/connection[name=/te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo']/connections/connection/name]

E.g. in English, this should equate to something like:

Return all information for tunnel foo AND ALSO
Return all information for all connections where the connection name matches one of the connections listed in tunnel foo.

>
> Likewise, how the client can ask for full data of the te-tunnel and all supporting te-tunnels and just pointers for supporting connections?
If my xpath above is right, then this would be something roughly like this:

   /te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo'] |
   /te/tunnels/tunnel[name=/te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo']/supporting-tunnels/supporting-tunnel/name]


I'm an XPath novice, so the expressions might be wrong.

https://www.freeformatter.com/xpath-tester.html might be useful. E.g. if 
you can construct a simple XML instance tree of your data, you could 
validate whether the XPath expression works.

I hope that this is of some help,
Rob


>
> I really appreciate your help,
>
> Igor
>
>   
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Per Hedeland [mailto:per@tail-f.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 5:21 PM
> To: Igor Bryskin
> Cc: mbj@tail-f.com; xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com; netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
>
> Just to be clear: what we're suggesting is that you can use the
> already-existing standard NETCONF XPath capability to achieve the desired
> result - see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6241#section-8.9
>
> --Per
>
> On 2017-10-09 21:52, Igor Bryskin wrote:
>> I agree. For example, a leafref may point not to a singls entity, but to a list of entities, and the client might want to expand all of them into the joint get response.
>>
>> Igor
>>
>> *From:*Per Hedeland
>> *To:*Martin Bjorklund,
>> *Cc:*Igor Bryskin,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org,
>> *Date:*2017-10-09 15:12:22
>> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
>>
>> On 2017-10-09 19:13, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
>>> Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi Per,
>>>>
>>>> Basically, what we need is a way for a client to request something
>>>> like this:
>>>>
>>>> get <XPath> joint with <XPath1, XPath2, ..., XPathn>
>>> ... which is what Per's expression does!  Note that "|" in XPath means
>>> "union".
>>>
>>> But as Per explained, it only works in some cases (when the leafref
>>> acts a "single pointer").
>> Well, that particular expression works only in that case - but since it
>> is effectively the client that (perhaps based on the data model) decides
>> what the leafref-leafs "mean" (in this case the single key of a single
>> list), other cases can be handled the same way. E.g. multiple
>> leafref-to-key leafs that together give the keys of a multi-key list
>> just amounts to a slightly hairier XPath filter...
>>
>> --Per
>>
>>>> with a server interpreting the request as follows:
>>>> if a node pointed by XPath contains a pointer (e.g. key leafref)
>>>> matching one of the XPath from the "joint with" list, then the server
>>>> must provide the entire body of the node pointed by the pointer,
>>>> otherwise, just the pointer (as it happens today, that is, when no
>>>> "joint with" list specified).
>>>>
>>>> We think that this would allow for the client to optimize the number
>>>> of request-response iterations depending on application/use case.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Igor
>>>
>>>
>>> /martin
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Per Hedeland [mailto:per@tail-f.com]
>>>> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 12:06 PM
>>>> To: Xufeng Liu
>>>> Cc: Igor Bryskin; netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>>> leafref
>>>>
>>>> I understand your use case, but a leaf of type leafref does not in
>>>> general identify a single node in the data tree - the leafref path
>>>> could
>>>> be for a non-key leaf, and/or the path could traverse list nodes,
>>>> and/or
>>>> the "target" list could have multiple keys and thus multiple
>>>> leafref-leafs be required to identify a specific list entry.
>>>>
>>>> Thus it seems to me that your use case is not a reasonable basis for a
>>>> new protocol operation. My XPath foo isn't very good either, but I do
>>>> believe Robert's suggestion of using an XPath filter could be a way
>>>> forward. I *think* the filter expression would be something along the
>>>> lines of
>>>>
>>>>    /te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo'] |
>>>>    /te/explicit-paths/explicit-path[name=/te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo']/paths/path/explicit-path]
>>>>
>>>> --Per
>>>>
>>>> On 2017-10-09 15:42, Xufeng Liu wrote:
>>>>> Hi Per,
>>>>>
>>>>>    
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Igor Bryskin [mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com]
>>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, October 8, 2017 7:04 PM
>>>>> *To:* Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>; per@tail-f.com;
>>>>> *xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com
>>>>> *Cc:* netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>>>> *leafref
>>>>>
>>>>>    
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Joel,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, I think I didnt explain our problem correctly.
>>>>>
>>>>> In our case we have a leafref pointing to a te tunnel name, which
>>>>> happens to be a key to lookup the (axilary) tunnel.  We need a way to
>>>>> include the entire tunnel body (not just a name) into the get
>>>>> response. This is to optimize the number of iterations between the
>>>>> client and the server. As Xufeng put it something similar to SQL join,
>>>>>
>>>>> Igor
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:*Igor Bryskin
>>>>>
>>>>> *To:*per@tail-f.com,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,
>>>>>
>>>>> *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org,
>>>>>
>>>>> *Date:*2017-10-08 17:36:47
>>>>>
>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>>>> *leafref
>>>>>
>>>>>    
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Per,
>>>>>
>>>>> In a nutshell we would lika for a netconf client to have a way to
>>>>> instruct the server on whether in response to the get request the
>>>>> server needs to provide the entire body of a datastore node pointed
>>>>> to by a leafref or just a pointer to said node, so that the node's
>>>>> body could be retrieved by a subsequent separate request. This is
>>>>> requested by implementors who want to optimise rhe number of
>>>>> interactions between a client and its server.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Igor
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:*Per Hedeland
>>>>>
>>>>> *To:*Xufeng Liu,
>>>>>
>>>>> *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,'NetMod WG',
>>>>>
>>>>> *Date:*2017-10-08 14:01:27
>>>>>
>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>>>> *leafref
>>>>>
>>>>>    
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2017-10-06 23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:
>>>>>> During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS YANG modeling, we
>>>>>> have received a request from implementers: How to minimize the number
>>>>>> of NETCONF/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation efficiency?
>>>>>> Especially for the case when the operator or client software needs to
>>>>>> retrieve the object contents pointed by a leafref.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For example, given the following simplified TE tunnel model,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +--rw te
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        +--rw explicit-paths
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |  +--rw explicit-path* [name]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |     +--rw name                      string
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |        +--rw explicit-route-object* [index]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |           +--rw index                   uint32
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |           +--rw explicit-route-usage?   identityref
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        +--rw tunnels
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |  +--rw tunnel* [name]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |  |  +--rw name                   string
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |  |  +--rw paths
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |  |  |  +--rw path* [name]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> |  |  |     +--rw explicit-path?  ->
>>>>>> |  |  |     ../../../../../explicit-paths/explicit-path/name
>>>>>>
>>>>>> when the client tries to retrieve a tunnels information based on the
>>>>>> tunnel name, the get operation returns a list of leafrefs pointing
>>>>>> to the paths of the tunnel.
>>>>> Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you explain exactly what your
>>>>> "get" request is (protocol and payload), and where the "list of
>>>>> leafref's" (whatever that may be) occurs in the reply?
>>>>>
>>>>> */[Xufeng] The get operation is the NETCONF/RESTCON <get> protocol
>>>>> *operation, or the <get-data> operation described in
>>>>> *https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01 and the GET
>>>>> *operations
>>>>> on {+restconf}/ds/<datastore> described in
>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00./*
>>>>>
>>>>> */ /*
>>>>>
>>>>> */We have a list of leafref values because in this example model, each
>>>>> *tunnel contains a list of paths, each of them contains a leafref. The
>>>>> *get returns a value for each instance of such a leafref,
>>>>> which (as a string value) will be used as a constraint (foreign key)
>>>>> to retrieve the instance of an explicit-path in the model above./*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> JFYI, in case there is some fundamental misunderstanding here: a leaf
>>>>> of
>>>>> type leafref has a single value - *one* of those that satisfy the
>>>>> leafref
>>>>> constraint, in case there are multiple "candidates".
>>>>>
>>>>> --Per
>>>>>
>>>>>> The client needs to issue at
>>>>>> least one more get operation to retrieve the path information about
>>>>>> the given tunnel. The request is to combine these two operations into
>>>>>> one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the RDBMS SQL world, join can be used when SQL select is
>>>>>> performed, but NETCONF/YANG currently does not have this capability.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wed like to ask whether such a request is considered reasonable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the request is reasonable, the next question is how to
>>>>>> proceed. This seems to be a protocol issue rather than YANG modeling
>>>>>> issue. Is it acceptable to add a new operation to achieve such a
>>>>>> <get-data> operation with expanded leafrefs?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Comments and suggestions are appreciated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Xufeng
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> netmod mailing list
>>>>>> netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Netconf mailing list
>>>>> Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Netconf mailing list
>>>> Netconf@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>>>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
> .
>


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From: Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>
To: "rwilton@cisco.com" <rwilton@cisco.com>, Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>
CC: "per@tail-f.com" <per@tail-f.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] [Netconf] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod]  Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
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Hi Rob,

This helps a lot. What you wrote will work.

The only difference is that if we would have the "joimt with" clause as we =
proposed, the server would be able to tailor the te-tunnel presentation to =
the client's requirements, e.g. substituting the connection pointers with c=
onnection bodies, while, according to your suggestion, the server will prov=
ide the te-tunnel body as is, and then augment it with the cobbection infor=
mation, thus, leaving
for the client to "shuffle " the received data. But I do agree, this would =
be a minor inconvinience for the client, the important thing is that the cl=
ient will get all the data in one piece.

Thanks a lot,
Igor

c

From:Robert Wilton
To:Igor Bryskin,
Cc:Per Hedeland,netmod@ietf.org,netconf@ietf.org,
Date:2017-10-10 06:41:04
Subject:Re: [netmod] [Netconf] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref

Hi Igor,

On 09/10/2017 23:11, Igor Bryskin wrote:
> Hi Per,
>
> This is a good news, but, please, help us out.
> Consider, we have a node - "te-tunnel" - which among other attributes has=
 two key leafref lists:
> 1) each member of the 1st list points to a "connection" supporting the te=
-tunnel. All connections supporting all te-tunnels are stored in a single l=
ist of connections.
> 2) each member of the 2nd list points to a supporting "te-tunnel" - the t=
e-tunnel in question depends on. All te=3Dtunnels including the te-tunnel i=
n question, are stored in a single list of te-tunnels.
>
> The question: how the client can retrieve via a single request all attrib=
utes of the te-tunnel in question along with all parameters of all connecti=
ons supporting the te-tunnel, but with just pointers to supporting te-tunne=
ls (so that the interested client can use the pointers to retrieve full dat=
a via subsequent separate requests) ?
I think that it might be something like this (for tunnel name foo):

   /te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo'] |
   /te/connections/connection[name=3D/te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo']/conne=
ctions/connection/name]

E.g. in English, this should equate to something like:

Return all information for tunnel foo AND ALSO
Return all information for all connections where the connection name matche=
s one of the connections listed in tunnel foo.

>
> Likewise, how the client can ask for full data of the te-tunnel and all s=
upporting te-tunnels and just pointers for supporting connections?
If my xpath above is right, then this would be something roughly like this:

   /te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo'] |
   /te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D/te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo']/supporting-tu=
nnels/supporting-tunnel/name]


I'm an XPath novice, so the expressions might be wrong.

https://www.freeformatter.com/xpath-tester.html might be useful. E.g. if
you can construct a simple XML instance tree of your data, you could
validate whether the XPath expression works.

I hope that this is of some help,
Rob


>
> I really appreciate your help,
>
> Igor
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Per Hedeland [mailto:per@tail-f.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 5:21 PM
> To: Igor Bryskin
> Cc: mbj@tail-f.com; xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com; netconf@ietf.org; netmod@i=
etf.org
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
>
> Just to be clear: what we're suggesting is that you can use the
> already-existing standard NETCONF XPath capability to achieve the desired
> result - see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6241#section-8.9
>
> --Per
>
> On 2017-10-09 21:52, Igor Bryskin wrote:
>> I agree. For example, a leafref may point not to a singls entity, but to=
 a list of entities, and the client might want to expand all of them into t=
he joint get response.
>>
>> Igor
>>
>> *From:*Per Hedeland
>> *To:*Martin Bjorklund,
>> *Cc:*Igor Bryskin,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf=
.org,
>> *Date:*2017-10-09 15:12:22
>> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafr=
ef
>>
>> On 2017-10-09 19:13, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
>>> Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi Per,
>>>>
>>>> Basically, what we need is a way for a client to request something
>>>> like this:
>>>>
>>>> get <XPath> joint with <XPath1, XPath2, ..., XPathn>
>>> ... which is what Per's expression does!  Note that "|" in XPath means
>>> "union".
>>>
>>> But as Per explained, it only works in some cases (when the leafref
>>> acts a "single pointer").
>> Well, that particular expression works only in that case - but since it
>> is effectively the client that (perhaps based on the data model) decides
>> what the leafref-leafs "mean" (in this case the single key of a single
>> list), other cases can be handled the same way. E.g. multiple
>> leafref-to-key leafs that together give the keys of a multi-key list
>> just amounts to a slightly hairier XPath filter...
>>
>> --Per
>>
>>>> with a server interpreting the request as follows:
>>>> if a node pointed by XPath contains a pointer (e.g. key leafref)
>>>> matching one of the XPath from the "joint with" list, then the server
>>>> must provide the entire body of the node pointed by the pointer,
>>>> otherwise, just the pointer (as it happens today, that is, when no
>>>> "joint with" list specified).
>>>>
>>>> We think that this would allow for the client to optimize the number
>>>> of request-response iterations depending on application/use case.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Igor
>>>
>>>
>>> /martin
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Per Hedeland [mailto:per@tail-f.com]
>>>> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 12:06 PM
>>>> To: Xufeng Liu
>>>> Cc: Igor Bryskin; netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>>> leafref
>>>>
>>>> I understand your use case, but a leaf of type leafref does not in
>>>> general identify a single node in the data tree - the leafref path
>>>> could
>>>> be for a non-key leaf, and/or the path could traverse list nodes,
>>>> and/or
>>>> the "target" list could have multiple keys and thus multiple
>>>> leafref-leafs be required to identify a specific list entry.
>>>>
>>>> Thus it seems to me that your use case is not a reasonable basis for a
>>>> new protocol operation. My XPath foo isn't very good either, but I do
>>>> believe Robert's suggestion of using an XPath filter could be a way
>>>> forward. I *think* the filter expression would be something along the
>>>> lines of
>>>>
>>>>    /te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo'] |
>>>>    /te/explicit-paths/explicit-path[name=3D/te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'=
foo']/paths/path/explicit-path]
>>>>
>>>> --Per
>>>>
>>>> On 2017-10-09 15:42, Xufeng Liu wrote:
>>>>> Hi Per,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Igor Bryskin [mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com]
>>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, October 8, 2017 7:04 PM
>>>>> *To:* Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>; per@tail-f.com;
>>>>> *xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com
>>>>> *Cc:* netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>>>> *leafref
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Joel,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, I think I didnt explain our problem correctly.
>>>>>
>>>>> In our case we have a leafref pointing to a te tunnel name, which
>>>>> happens to be a key to lookup the (axilary) tunnel.  We need a way to
>>>>> include the entire tunnel body (not just a name) into the get
>>>>> response. This is to optimize the number of iterations between the
>>>>> client and the server. As Xufeng put it something similar to SQL join=
,
>>>>>
>>>>> Igor
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:*Igor Bryskin
>>>>>
>>>>> *To:*per@tail-f.com,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,
>>>>>
>>>>> *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org,
>>>>>
>>>>> *Date:*2017-10-08 17:36:47
>>>>>
>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>>>> *leafref
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Per,
>>>>>
>>>>> In a nutshell we would lika for a netconf client to have a way to
>>>>> instruct the server on whether in response to the get request the
>>>>> server needs to provide the entire body of a datastore node pointed
>>>>> to by a leafref or just a pointer to said node, so that the node's
>>>>> body could be retrieved by a subsequent separate request. This is
>>>>> requested by implementors who want to optimise rhe number of
>>>>> interactions between a client and its server.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Igor
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:*Per Hedeland
>>>>>
>>>>> *To:*Xufeng Liu,
>>>>>
>>>>> *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,'NetMod WG',
>>>>>
>>>>> *Date:*2017-10-08 14:01:27
>>>>>
>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>>>> *leafref
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2017-10-06 23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:
>>>>>> During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS YANG modeling, we
>>>>>> have received a request from implementers: How to minimize the numbe=
r
>>>>>> of NETCONF/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation efficiency?
>>>>>> Especially for the case when the operator or client software needs t=
o
>>>>>> retrieve the object contents pointed by a leafref.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For example, given the following simplified TE tunnel model,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +--rw te
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        +--rw explicit-paths
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |  +--rw explicit-path* [name]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |     +--rw name                      string
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |        +--rw explicit-route-object* [index]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |           +--rw index                   uint32
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |           +--rw explicit-route-usage?   identityref
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        +--rw tunnels
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |  +--rw tunnel* [name]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |  |  +--rw name                   string
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |  |  +--rw paths
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |  |  |  +--rw path* [name]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> |  |  |     +--rw explicit-path?  ->
>>>>>> |  |  |     ../../../../../explicit-paths/explicit-path/name
>>>>>>
>>>>>> when the client tries to retrieve a tunnels information based on the
>>>>>> tunnel name, the =1Cget operation returns a list of leafrefs pointin=
g
>>>>>> to the paths of the tunnel.
>>>>> Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you explain exactly what your
>>>>> "get" request is (protocol and payload), and where the "list of
>>>>> leafref's" (whatever that may be) occurs in the reply?
>>>>>
>>>>> */[Xufeng] The =1Cget=1D operation is the NETCONF/RESTCON <get> proto=
col
>>>>> *operation, or the <get-data> operation described in
>>>>> *https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01 and the GET
>>>>> *operations
>>>>> on {+restconf}/ds/<datastore> described in
>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00./*
>>>>>
>>>>> */ /*
>>>>>
>>>>> */We have a list of leafref values because in this example model, eac=
h
>>>>> *tunnel contains a list of paths, each of them contains a leafref. Th=
e
>>>>> *=1Cget=1D returns a value for each instance of such a leafref,
>>>>> which (as a string value) will be used as a constraint (foreign key)
>>>>> to retrieve the instance of an explicit-path in the model above./*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> JFYI, in case there is some fundamental misunderstanding here: a leaf
>>>>> of
>>>>> type leafref has a single value - *one* of those that satisfy the
>>>>> leafref
>>>>> constraint, in case there are multiple "candidates".
>>>>>
>>>>> --Per
>>>>>
>>>>>> The client needs to issue at
>>>>>> least one more =1Cget operation to retrieve the path information abo=
ut
>>>>>> the given tunnel. The request is to combine these two operations int=
o
>>>>>> one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the RDBMS SQL world, =1Cjoin can be used when SQL =1Cselect is
>>>>>> performed, but NETCONF/YANG currently does not have this capability.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wed like to ask whether such a request is considered reasonable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the request is reasonable, the next question is how to
>>>>>> proceed. This seems to be a protocol issue rather than YANG modeling
>>>>>> issue. Is it acceptable to add a new operation to achieve such a
>>>>>> <get-data> operation with expanded leafrefs?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Comments and suggestions are appreciated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Xufeng
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> netmod mailing list
>>>>>> netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Netconf mailing list
>>>>> Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Netconf mailing list
>>>> Netconf@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>>>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
> .
>


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<div>
<div>Hi Rob,<br>
<br>
This helps a lot. What you wrote will work.<br>
<br>
The only difference is that if we would have the &quot;joimt with&quot; cla=
use as we proposed, the server would be able to tailor the te-tunnel presen=
tation to the client's requirements, e.g. substituting the connection point=
ers with connection bodies, while, according
 to your suggestion, the server will provide the te-tunnel body as is, and =
then augment it with the cobbection information, thus, leaving
<br>
for the client to &quot;shuffle &quot; the received data. But I do agree, t=
his would be a minor inconvinience for the client, the important thing is t=
hat the client will get all the data in one piece.<br>
<br>
Thanks a lot,<br>
Igor<br>
<br>
c<br>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"x_AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B=
5C4DF; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>From:</b>Robert Wilton</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>To:</b>Igor Bryskin,</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>Cc:</b>Per Hedeland,netmod@ietf.org,=
netconf@ietf.org,</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>Date:</b>2017-10-10 06:41:04</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>Subject:</b>Re: [netmod] [Netconf] R=
etrieving Information Pointed by leafref</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;">
<div class=3D"PlainText">Hi Igor,<br>
<br>
On 09/10/2017 23:11, Igor Bryskin wrote:<br>
&gt; Hi Per,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This is a good news, but, please, help us out.<br>
&gt; Consider, we have a node - &quot;te-tunnel&quot; - which among other a=
ttributes has two key leafref lists:<br>
&gt; 1) each member of the 1st list points to a &quot;connection&quot; supp=
orting the te-tunnel. All connections supporting all te-tunnels are stored =
in a single list of connections.<br>
&gt; 2) each member of the 2nd list points to a supporting &quot;te-tunnel&=
quot; - the te-tunnel in question depends on. All te=3Dtunnels including th=
e te-tunnel in question, are stored in a single list of te-tunnels.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The question: how the client can retrieve via a single request all att=
ributes of the te-tunnel in question along with all parameters of all conne=
ctions supporting the te-tunnel, but with just pointers to supporting te-tu=
nnels (so that the interested client
 can use the pointers to retrieve full data via subsequent separate request=
s) ?<br>
I think that it might be something like this (for tunnel name foo):<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; /te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo'] |<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; /te/connections/connection[name=3D/te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'f=
oo']/connections/connection/name]<br>
<br>
E.g. in English, this should equate to something like:<br>
<br>
Return all information for tunnel foo AND ALSO<br>
Return all information for all connections where the connection name matche=
s one of the connections listed in tunnel foo.<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Likewise, how the client can ask for full data of the te-tunnel and al=
l supporting te-tunnels and just pointers for supporting connections?<br>
If my xpath above is right, then this would be something roughly like this:=
<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; /te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo'] |<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; /te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D/te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo']/sup=
porting-tunnels/supporting-tunnel/name]<br>
<br>
<br>
I'm an XPath novice, so the expressions might be wrong.<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.freeformatter.com/xpath-tester.html">https://www.fre=
eformatter.com/xpath-tester.html</a> might be useful. E.g. if
<br>
you can construct a simple XML instance tree of your data, you could <br>
validate whether the XPath expression works.<br>
<br>
I hope that this is of some help,<br>
Rob<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I really appreciate your help,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Igor<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Per Hedeland [<a href=3D"mailto:per@tail-f.com">mailto:per@tail-=
f.com</a>]<br>
&gt; Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 5:21 PM<br>
&gt; To: Igor Bryskin<br>
&gt; Cc: mbj@tail-f.com; xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com; netconf@ietf.org; netmo=
d@ietf.org<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leaf=
ref<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Just to be clear: what we're suggesting is that you can use the<br>
&gt; already-existing standard NETCONF XPath capability to achieve the desi=
red<br>
&gt; result - see <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6241#section-8.=
9">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6241#section-8.9</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --Per<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On 2017-10-09 21:52, Igor Bryskin wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; I agree. For example, a leafref may point not to a singls entity, =
but to a list of entities, and the client might want to expand all of them =
into the joint get response.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Igor<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; *From:*Per Hedeland<br>
&gt;&gt; *To:*Martin Bjorklund,<br>
&gt;&gt; *Cc:*Igor Bryskin,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,netconf@ietf.org,netmo=
d@ietf.org,<br>
&gt;&gt; *Date:*2017-10-09 15:12:22<br>
&gt;&gt; *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by=
 leafref<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 2017-10-09 19:13, Martin Bjorklund wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Igor Bryskin &lt;Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Per,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Basically, what we need is a way for a client to request s=
omething<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; like this:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; get &lt;XPath&gt; joint with &lt;XPath1, XPath2, ..., XPat=
hn&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; ... which is what Per's expression does!&nbsp; Note that &quot=
;|&quot; in XPath means<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;union&quot;.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; But as Per explained, it only works in some cases (when the le=
afref<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; acts a &quot;single pointer&quot;).<br>
&gt;&gt; Well, that particular expression works only in that case - but sin=
ce it<br>
&gt;&gt; is effectively the client that (perhaps based on the data model) d=
ecides<br>
&gt;&gt; what the leafref-leafs &quot;mean&quot; (in this case the single k=
ey of a single<br>
&gt;&gt; list), other cases can be handled the same way. E.g. multiple<br>
&gt;&gt; leafref-to-key leafs that together give the keys of a multi-key li=
st<br>
&gt;&gt; just amounts to a slightly hairier XPath filter...<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; --Per<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; with a server interpreting the request as follows:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; if a node pointed by XPath contains a pointer (e.g. key le=
afref)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; matching one of the XPath from the &quot;joint with&quot; =
list, then the server<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; must provide the entire body of the node pointed by the po=
inter,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; otherwise, just the pointer (as it happens today, that is,=
 when no<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;joint with&quot; list specified).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; We think that this would allow for the client to optimize =
the number<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of request-response iterations depending on application/us=
e case.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Igor<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; /martin<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; From: Per Hedeland [<a href=3D"mailto:per@tail-f.com">mail=
to:per@tail-f.com</a>]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 12:06 PM<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To: Xufeng Liu<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cc: Igor Bryskin; netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Poi=
nted by<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; leafref<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I understand your use case, but a leaf of type leafref doe=
s not in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; general identify a single node in the data tree - the leaf=
ref path<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; could<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; be for a non-key leaf, and/or the path could traverse list=
 nodes,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; and/or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the &quot;target&quot; list could have multiple keys and t=
hus multiple<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; leafref-leafs be required to identify a specific list entr=
y.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thus it seems to me that your use case is not a reasonable=
 basis for a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; new protocol operation. My XPath foo isn't very good eithe=
r, but I do<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; believe Robert's suggestion of using an XPath filter could=
 be a way<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; forward. I *think* the filter expression would be somethin=
g along the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; lines of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; /te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo'] |<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; /te/explicit-paths/explicit-path[name=3D=
/te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo']/paths/path/explicit-path]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --Per<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On 2017-10-09 15:42, Xufeng Liu wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Per,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *From:* Igor Bryskin [<a href=3D"mailto:Igor.Bryskin@h=
uawei.com">mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com</a>]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *Sent:* Sunday, October 8, 2017 7:04 PM<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *To:* Igor Bryskin &lt;Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com&gt;; pe=
r@tail-f.com;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *Cc:* netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *Subject:* Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Informati=
on Pointed by<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *leafref<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Joel,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks, I think I didnt explain our problem correctly.=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In our case we have a leafref pointing to a te tunnel =
name, which<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; happens to be a key to lookup the (axilary) tunnel.&nb=
sp; We need a way to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; include the entire tunnel body (not just a name) into =
the get<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; response. This is to optimize the number of iterations=
 between the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; client and the server. As Xufeng put it something simi=
lar to SQL join,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Igor<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *From:*Igor Bryskin<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *To:*per@tail-f.com,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *Date:*2017-10-08 17:36:47<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Informatio=
n Pointed by<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *leafref<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Per,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In a nutshell we would lika for a netconf client to ha=
ve a way to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; instruct the server on whether in response to the get =
request the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; server needs to provide the entire body of a datastore=
 node pointed<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to by a leafref or just a pointer to said node, so tha=
t the node's<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; body could be retrieved by a subsequent separate reque=
st. This is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; requested by implementors who want to optimise rhe num=
ber of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; interactions between a client and its server.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Igor<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *From:*Per Hedeland<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *To:*Xufeng Liu,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,'NetMod WG',<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *Date:*2017-10-08 14:01:27<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Informatio=
n Pointed by<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *leafref<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On 2017-10-06 23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS =
YANG modeling, we<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; have received a request from implementers: How to =
minimize the number<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of NETCONF/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation effi=
ciency?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Especially for the case when the operator or clien=
t software needs to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; retrieve the object contents pointed by a leafref.=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; For example, given the following simplified TE tun=
nel model,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &#43;--rw te<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--r=
w explicit-paths<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
&#43;--rw explicit-path* [name]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--rw name&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; string<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--rw explicit-route-object* [index=
]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--rw index&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint32<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--rw explicit-ro=
ute-usage?&nbsp;&nbsp; identityref<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--r=
w tunnels<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
&#43;--rw tunnel* [name]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
|&nbsp; &#43;--rw name&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; string<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
|&nbsp; &#43;--rw paths<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
|&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--rw path* [name]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--r=
w explicit-path?&nbsp; -&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ../../..=
/../../explicit-paths/explicit-path/name<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; when the client tries to retrieve a tunnels inform=
ation based on the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; tunnel name, the &#28;get operation returns a list=
 of leafrefs pointing<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to the paths of the tunnel.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you explain exac=
tly what your<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;get&quot; request is (protocol and payload), and=
 where the &quot;list of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; leafref's&quot; (whatever that may be) occurs in the r=
eply?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; */[Xufeng] The &#28;get&#29; operation is the NETCONF/=
RESTCON &lt;get&gt; protocol<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *operation, or the &lt;get-data&gt; operation describe=
d in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-0=
1 and the GET<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *operations<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; on {&#43;restconf}/ds/&lt;datastore&gt; described in<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netc=
onf-nmda-restconf-00./*">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00./*</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; */ /*<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; */We have a list of leafref values because in this exa=
mple model, each<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *tunnel contains a list of paths, each of them contain=
s a leafref. The<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *&#28;get&#29; returns a value for each instance of su=
ch a leafref,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; which (as a string value) will be used as a constraint=
 (foreign key)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to retrieve the instance of an explicit-path in the mo=
del above./*<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; JFYI, in case there is some fundamental misunderstandi=
ng here: a leaf<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; type leafref has a single value - *one* of those that =
satisfy the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; leafref<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; constraint, in case there are multiple &quot;candidate=
s&quot;.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --Per<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The client needs to issue at<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; least one more &#28;get operation to retrieve the =
path information about<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the given tunnel. The request is to combine these =
two operations into<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; one.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In the RDBMS SQL world, &#28;join can be used when=
 SQL &#28;select is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; performed, but NETCONF/YANG currently does not hav=
e this capability.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Wed like to ask whether such a request is consider=
ed reasonable.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; If the request is reasonable, the next question is=
 how to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; proceed. This seems to be a protocol issue rather =
than YANG modeling<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; issue. Is it acceptable to add a new operation to =
achieve such a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;get-data&gt; operation with expanded leafrefs?=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Comments and suggestions are appreciated.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - Xufeng<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; netmod mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; netmod@ietf.org &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.=
org">mailto:netmod@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/n=
etmod">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Netconf mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Netconf@ietf.org &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.or=
g">mailto:Netconf@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netco=
nf">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Netconf mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Netconf@ietf.org<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; netmod mailing list<br>
&gt; netmod@ietf.org<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod">https://www.i=
etf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod</a><br>
&gt; .<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
</div>
</span></font>
</body>
</html>

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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
CC: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] WG LC for zerotouch
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Network Configuration Access Control Module
        Authors         : Andy Bierman
                          Martin Bjorklund
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-06.txt
	Pages           : 55
	Date            : 2017-10-10

Abstract:
   The standardization of network configuration interfaces for use with
   the Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF) or RESTCONF protocol
   requires a structured and secure operating environment that promotes
   human usability and multi-vendor interoperability.  There is a need
   for standard mechanisms to restrict NETCONF or RESTCONF protocol
   access for particular users to a pre-configured subset of all
   available NETCONF or RESTCONF protocol operations and content.  This
   document defines such an access control model.

   This document obsoletes RFC 6536.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-06
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-06

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-06


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
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From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
To: NETCONF <netconf@ietf.org>
References: <4b988ee4-3787-9616-bbd5-3de6b9f82f70@cisco.com> <a455da82-f39a-3e9c-2d75-01b0a2a92cb1@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] AD review of draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05
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Dear all,

The comment below has not been discussed and I don't see any changes 
part of draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-06.
However, I'm sending the document to IETF LC now, with a tentative IESG 
telechat date on Oct 26th.
Please discuss (and resolve, if necessary) this comment.

Regards, Benoit
> Dear all,
>
> Investigating further, one more point.
>        3.2.2
>         <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#section-3.2.2>.
>         Access Rights
>
>
>
>     A small set of hard-wired datastore access rights is needed to
>     control access to all possible NETCONF protocol operations, including
>     vendor extensions to the standard protocol operation set.
>
>     The "CRUDX" model can support all NETCONF protocol operations:
>
>     o  Create: allows the client to add a new data node instance to a
>        datastore.
>
>     o  Read: allows the client to read a data node instance from a
>        datastore or receive the notification event type.
>
>     o  Update: allows the client to update an existing data node instance
>        in a datastore.
>
>     o  Delete: allows the client to delete a data node instance from a
>        datastore.
>
>     o  eXec: allows the client to execute the operation.
>
>
> What is the link with RESTCONF?
> I guess I don't understand (the idea behind) this section.
>
> Regards, Benoit
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Here is my AD review for draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.
>>
>> There are no YANG module dependencies to publish this document:
>> https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules[]=ietf-netconf-acm 
>> => select "Dependencies only"
>> The YANG module validates correctly:
>> https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.php?module=ietf-netconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang
>> No more issues:
>> https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis
>> The diffs with RFC 6536 are minor.
>> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=https://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6536.txt&url2=https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.txt
>>
>> Very good so far.
>>
>> There are however two issues:
>> - You should either remove NETCONF or add RESTCONF to the document title.
>> - Update the Security Considerations based on the new template.
>>
>> Editorial:
>> This document thought of the NMDA/revised datastore architecture 
>> [I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores 
>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores>]. 
>> After all, it's a normative reference ... just for the definition. 
>> However, I don't clearly see this message. Should we clearly mention 
>> that point in section 2.4 or section 3.2/3.2.1.
>> For example:
>>     The same access control rules apply to all datastores that support
>>     NACM, for example, the candidate configuration datastore or the
>>     running configuration datastore.
>> NEW:
>>     The same access control rules apply to all datastores that support
>>     NACM, including the ones following the Network Management Datastore
>>     Architecture [I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores 
>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores>], for example ...
>>
>> Regards, Benoit
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Netconf mailing list
>> Netconf@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


--------------4621DD6BFAA391AF50F6BC5E
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<html>
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  </head>
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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear all,<br>
      <br>
      The comment below has not been discussed and I don't see any
      changes part of draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-06.<br>
      However, I'm sending the document to IETF LC now, with a tentative
      IESG telechat date on Oct 26th.<br>
      Please discuss (and resolve, if necessary) this comment.<br>
      <br>
      Regards, Benoit<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:a455da82-f39a-3e9c-2d75-01b0a2a92cb1@cisco.com">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear all,<br>
        <br>
        Investigating further, one more point.<br>
        <pre wrap="">      3.2.2
       <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#section-3.2.2" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#section-3.2.2&gt;</a>.
       Access Rights



   A small set of hard-wired datastore access rights is needed to
   control access to all possible NETCONF protocol operations, including
   vendor extensions to the standard protocol operation set.

   The "CRUDX" model can support all NETCONF protocol operations:

   o  Create: allows the client to add a new data node instance to a
      datastore.

   o  Read: allows the client to read a data node instance from a
      datastore or receive the notification event type.

   o  Update: allows the client to update an existing data node instance
      in a datastore.

   o  Delete: allows the client to delete a data node instance from a
      datastore.

   o  eXec: allows the client to execute the operation.


</pre>
      </div>
      What is the link with RESTCONF?<br>
      I guess I don't understand (the idea behind) this section.<br>
      <br>
      Regards, Benoit<br>
      <blockquote type="cite"
        cite="mid:4b988ee4-3787-9616-bbd5-3de6b9f82f70@cisco.com">Dear
        all,<br>
        <br>
        Here is my AD review for draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.<br>
        <br>
        There are no YANG module dependencies to publish this document:<br>
        Â Â Â  <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules"
          moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules</a>[]=ietf-netconf-acm
        =&gt; select "Dependencies only"<br>
        The YANG module validates correctly:<br>
        Â Â Â  <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.php?module=ietf-netconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang"
          moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.php?module=ietf-netconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang</a><br>
        No more issues:<br>
        Â Â Â  <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
          href="https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis"
          moz-do-not-send="true">https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis</a><br>
        The diffs with RFC 6536 are minor.<br>
        Â Â Â  <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=https://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6536.txt&amp;url2=https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.txt"
          moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=https://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6536.txt&amp;url2=https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.txt</a><br>
        <br>
        Very good so far.<br>
        <br>
        There are however two issues:<br>
        - You should either remove NETCONF or add RESTCONF to the
        document title.<br>
        - Update the Security Considerations based on the new template.<br>
        <br>
        Editorial:<br>
        This document thought of the NMDA/revised datastore architecture
        [<a
href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores"
          moz-do-not-send="true">I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores</a>].
        After all, it's a normative reference ... just for the
        definition. However, I don't clearly see this message. Should we
        clearly mention that point in section 2.4 or section 3.2/3.2.1.
        <br>
        For example: <br>
        <pre class="newpage">   The same access control rules apply to all datastores that support
   NACM, for example, the candidate configuration datastore or the
   running configuration datastore.</pre>
        NEW:<br>
        <pre class="newpage">   The same access control rules apply to all datastores that support
   NACM, including the ones following the Network Management Datastore
   Architecture [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores" moz-do-not-send="true">I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores</a>], for example ... 

</pre>
        Regards, Benoit<br>
        <br>
        <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
        <br>
        <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Netconf@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">Netconf@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a>
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Dear YANG Patch Media Type authors,

What do you think of this proposed errata?

Regards, B.
> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC8072,
> "YANG Patch Media Type".
>
> --------------------------------------
> You may review the report below and at:
> http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5131
>
> --------------------------------------
> Type: Technical
> Reported by: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
>
> Section: 2.2
>
> Original Text
> -------------
> Regarding section 2.2 of RFC 8072, the third paragraph states:
>
>
>                                         ... If the edit does not identify
>      any existing resource instance and the operation for the edit is not
>      "create", then the request MUST NOT be processed and a "404 Not
>      Found" error response MUST be sent by the server.
>
> Corrected Text
> --------------
>                                        ... If the edit does not identify
>     any existing resource instance and the operation for the edit is
>     "delete" or "move" then the request MUST NOT be processed and a
>     "404 Not Found" error response MUST be sent by the server.
>
> Notes
> -----
> As per the second paragraph of section 2.2 of RFC 8072, the operations are expected to mirror the semantics of the "operation" attribute described in Section 7.2 of [RFC6241].
>
> The spec also doesn't specify what happens if it is a "create" operation and the resource already exists.  It should probably also state that "400 Bad Request" is returned.
>
> Instructions:
> -------------
> This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
> use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
> rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party
> can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.
>
> --------------------------------------
> RFC8072 (draft-ietf-netconf-yang-patch-14)
> --------------------------------------
> Title               : YANG Patch Media Type
> Publication Date    : February 2017
> Author(s)           : A. Bierman, M. Bjorklund, K. Watsen
> Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
> Source              : Network Configuration
> Area                : Operations and Management
> Stream              : IETF
> Verifying Party     : IESG
> .
>


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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/fDfArY9XfmaxV9tOhNmnQd7wmw8>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod]  Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
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Igor

Thinking laterally, this is a problem that DNS encountered a few decades
ago and solved, by allowing the server to include additional information
not specifically requested that the server can see is going to be needed
for the next step, so if the client asks only about a CNAME, then the
server can provide the relevant IP address as well.

I suspect that the current rules for Netconf do not allow the server to
send anything not explicitly requested, which is a shame (IMO).

The DNS approach works very well, in fact I do not think we would
survive without it.

Tom Petch

----- Original Message -----
From: "Igor Bryskin" <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 2:35 PM

Hi Rob,

This helps a lot. What you wrote will work.

The only difference is that if we would have the "joimt with" clause as
we proposed, the server would be able to tailor the te-tunnel
presentation to the client's requirements, e.g. substituting the
connection pointers with connection bodies, while, according to your
suggestion, the server will provide the te-tunnel body as is, and then
augment it with the cobbection information, thus, leaving
for the client to "shuffle " the received data. But I do agree, this
would be a minor inconvinience for the client, the important thing is
that the client will get all the data in one piece.

Thanks a lot,
Igor

c

From:Robert Wilton
To:Igor Bryskin,
Cc:Per Hedeland,netmod@ietf.org,netconf@ietf.org,
Date:2017-10-10 06:41:04
Subject:Re: [netmod] [Netconf] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref

Hi Igor,

On 09/10/2017 23:11, Igor Bryskin wrote:
> Hi Per,
>
> This is a good news, but, please, help us out.
> Consider, we have a node - "te-tunnel" - which among other attributes
has two key leafref lists:
> 1) each member of the 1st list points to a "connection" supporting the
te-tunnel. All connections supporting all te-tunnels are stored in a
single list of connections.
> 2) each member of the 2nd list points to a supporting "te-tunnel" -
the te-tunnel in question depends on. All te=tunnels including the
te-tunnel in question, are stored in a single list of te-tunnels.
>
> The question: how the client can retrieve via a single request all
attributes of the te-tunnel in question along with all parameters of all
connections supporting the te-tunnel, but with just pointers to
supporting te-tunnels (so that the interested client can use the
pointers to retrieve full data via subsequent separate requests) ?
I think that it might be something like this (for tunnel name foo):

   /te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo'] |

/te/connections/connection[name=/te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo']/connectio
ns/connection/name]

E.g. in English, this should equate to something like:

Return all information for tunnel foo AND ALSO
Return all information for all connections where the connection name
matches one of the connections listed in tunnel foo.

>
> Likewise, how the client can ask for full data of the te-tunnel and
all supporting te-tunnels and just pointers for supporting connections?
If my xpath above is right, then this would be something roughly like
this:

   /te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo'] |

/te/tunnels/tunnel[name=/te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo']/supporting-tunnel
s/supporting-tunnel/name]


I'm an XPath novice, so the expressions might be wrong.

https://www.freeformatter.com/xpath-tester.html might be useful. E.g. if
you can construct a simple XML instance tree of your data, you could
validate whether the XPath expression works.

I hope that this is of some help,
Rob


>
> I really appreciate your help,
>
> Igor
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Per Hedeland [mailto:per@tail-f.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 5:21 PM
> To: Igor Bryskin
> Cc: mbj@tail-f.com; xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com; netconf@ietf.org;
netmod@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
leafref
>
> Just to be clear: what we're suggesting is that you can use the
> already-existing standard NETCONF XPath capability to achieve the
desired
> result - see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6241#section-8.9
>
> --Per
>
> On 2017-10-09 21:52, Igor Bryskin wrote:
>> I agree. For example, a leafref may point not to a singls entity, but
to a list of entities, and the client might want to expand all of them
into the joint get response.
>>
>> Igor
>>
>> *From:*Per Hedeland
>> *To:*Martin Bjorklund,
>> *Cc:*Igor
Bryskin,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org,
>> *Date:*2017-10-09 15:12:22
>> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
leafref
>>
>> On 2017-10-09 19:13, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
>>> Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi Per,
>>>>
>>>> Basically, what we need is a way for a client to request something
>>>> like this:
>>>>
>>>> get <XPath> joint with <XPath1, XPath2, ..., XPathn>
>>> ... which is what Per's expression does!  Note that "|" in XPath
means
>>> "union".
>>>
>>> But as Per explained, it only works in some cases (when the leafref
>>> acts a "single pointer").
>> Well, that particular expression works only in that case - but since
it
>> is effectively the client that (perhaps based on the data model)
decides
>> what the leafref-leafs "mean" (in this case the single key of a
single
>> list), other cases can be handled the same way. E.g. multiple
>> leafref-to-key leafs that together give the keys of a multi-key list
>> just amounts to a slightly hairier XPath filter...
>>
>> --Per
>>
>>>> with a server interpreting the request as follows:
>>>> if a node pointed by XPath contains a pointer (e.g. key leafref)
>>>> matching one of the XPath from the "joint with" list, then the
server
>>>> must provide the entire body of the node pointed by the pointer,
>>>> otherwise, just the pointer (as it happens today, that is, when no
>>>> "joint with" list specified).
>>>>
>>>> We think that this would allow for the client to optimize the
number
>>>> of request-response iterations depending on application/use case.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Igor
>>>
>>>
>>> /martin
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Per Hedeland [mailto:per@tail-f.com]
>>>> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 12:06 PM
>>>> To: Xufeng Liu
>>>> Cc: Igor Bryskin; netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>>> leafref
>>>>
>>>> I understand your use case, but a leaf of type leafref does not in
>>>> general identify a single node in the data tree - the leafref path
>>>> could
>>>> be for a non-key leaf, and/or the path could traverse list nodes,
>>>> and/or
>>>> the "target" list could have multiple keys and thus multiple
>>>> leafref-leafs be required to identify a specific list entry.
>>>>
>>>> Thus it seems to me that your use case is not a reasonable basis
for a
>>>> new protocol operation. My XPath foo isn't very good either, but I
do
>>>> believe Robert's suggestion of using an XPath filter could be a way
>>>> forward. I *think* the filter expression would be something along
the
>>>> lines of
>>>>
>>>>    /te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo'] |
>>>>
/te/explicit-paths/explicit-path[name=/te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo']/pat
hs/path/explicit-path]
>>>>
>>>> --Per
>>>>
>>>> On 2017-10-09 15:42, Xufeng Liu wrote:
>>>>> Hi Per,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Igor Bryskin [mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com]
>>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, October 8, 2017 7:04 PM
>>>>> *To:* Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>; per@tail-f.com;
>>>>> *xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com
>>>>> *Cc:* netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed
by
>>>>> *leafref
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Joel,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, I think I didnt explain our problem correctly.
>>>>>
>>>>> In our case we have a leafref pointing to a te tunnel name, which
>>>>> happens to be a key to lookup the (axilary) tunnel.  We need a way
to
>>>>> include the entire tunnel body (not just a name) into the get
>>>>> response. This is to optimize the number of iterations between the
>>>>> client and the server. As Xufeng put it something similar to SQL
join,
>>>>>
>>>>> Igor
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:*Igor Bryskin
>>>>>
>>>>> *To:*per@tail-f.com,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,
>>>>>
>>>>> *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org,
>>>>>
>>>>> *Date:*2017-10-08 17:36:47
>>>>>
>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>>>> *leafref
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Per,
>>>>>
>>>>> In a nutshell we would lika for a netconf client to have a way to
>>>>> instruct the server on whether in response to the get request the
>>>>> server needs to provide the entire body of a datastore node
pointed
>>>>> to by a leafref or just a pointer to said node, so that the node's
>>>>> body could be retrieved by a subsequent separate request. This is
>>>>> requested by implementors who want to optimise rhe number of
>>>>> interactions between a client and its server.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Igor
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:*Per Hedeland
>>>>>
>>>>> *To:*Xufeng Liu,
>>>>>
>>>>> *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,'NetMod WG',
>>>>>
>>>>> *Date:*2017-10-08 14:01:27
>>>>>
>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>>>> *leafref
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2017-10-06 23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:
>>>>>> During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS YANG modeling,
we
>>>>>> have received a request from implementers: How to minimize the
number
>>>>>> of NETCONF/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation efficiency?
>>>>>> Especially for the case when the operator or client software
needs to
>>>>>> retrieve the object contents pointed by a leafref.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For example, given the following simplified TE tunnel model,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +--rw te
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        +--rw explicit-paths
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |  +--rw explicit-path* [name]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |     +--rw name                      string
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |        +--rw explicit-route-object* [index]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |           +--rw index                   uint32
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |           +--rw explicit-route-usage?   identityref
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        +--rw tunnels
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |  +--rw tunnel* [name]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |  |  +--rw name                   string
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |  |  +--rw paths
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        |  |  |  +--rw path* [name]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> |  |  |     +--rw explicit-path?  ->
>>>>>> |  |  |     ../../../../../explicit-paths/explicit-path/name
>>>>>>
>>>>>> when the client tries to retrieve a tunnels information based on
the
>>>>>> tunnel name, the get operation returns a list of leafrefs
pointing
>>>>>> to the paths of the tunnel.
>>>>> Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you explain exactly what
your
>>>>> "get" request is (protocol and payload), and where the "list of
>>>>> leafref's" (whatever that may be) occurs in the reply?
>>>>>
>>>>> */[Xufeng] The get operation is the NETCONF/RESTCON <get>
protocol
>>>>> *operation, or the <get-data> operation described in
>>>>> *https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01 and the
GET
>>>>> *operations
>>>>> on {+restconf}/ds/<datastore> described in
>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00./*
>>>>>
>>>>> */ /*
>>>>>
>>>>> */We have a list of leafref values because in this example model,
each
>>>>> *tunnel contains a list of paths, each of them contains a leafref.
The
>>>>> *get returns a value for each instance of such a leafref,
>>>>> which (as a string value) will be used as a constraint (foreign
key)
>>>>> to retrieve the instance of an explicit-path in the model above./*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> JFYI, in case there is some fundamental misunderstanding here: a
leaf
>>>>> of
>>>>> type leafref has a single value - *one* of those that satisfy the
>>>>> leafref
>>>>> constraint, in case there are multiple "candidates".
>>>>>
>>>>> --Per
>>>>>
>>>>>> The client needs to issue at
>>>>>> least one more get operation to retrieve the path information
about
>>>>>> the given tunnel. The request is to combine these two operations
into
>>>>>> one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the RDBMS SQL world, join can be used when SQL select is
>>>>>> performed, but NETCONF/YANG currently does not have this
capability.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wed like to ask whether such a request is considered reasonable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the request is reasonable, the next question is how to
>>>>>> proceed. This seems to be a protocol issue rather than YANG
modeling
>>>>>> issue. Is it acceptable to add a new operation to achieve such a
>>>>>> <get-data> operation with expanded leafrefs?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Comments and suggestions are appreciated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Xufeng
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> netmod mailing list
>>>>>> netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Netconf mailing list
>>>>> Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Netconf mailing list
>>>> Netconf@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>>>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
> .
>




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--------


> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>


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From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod]  Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
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I've also been thinking about this problem a bit more :-)

The XPath solution works, but the expression isn't particularly nice to 
write, and I suspect that implementations may struggle to implement it 
efficiently (if they support XPath filtering at all).

A nicer solution here might be to allow the XPath filters to be combined 
with a subtree filter along the lines of a more advanced type of 
"Attribute Match Expression" sec 6.2.2 of rfc6241.

E.g. rather than this XPath filter:

/te:te/te:tunnels/te:tunnel[te:name='foo'] |
/te:te/te:connections/te:connection[te:name=/te:te/te:tunnels/te:tunnel[te:name='foo']/te:connections/te:connection/te:name]

Here is example of what a subtree filter combined with an XPath filter 
could potentially look like (which of course isn't valid NETCONF/YANG 
today):

<filter type="subtree-xpath">
   <te:te xmlns:te="...">
     <te:tunnels te:name="foo"/>
     <te:connections>
       <filter type="xpath" select="te:name = ../te:tunnels/te:tunnel[te:name='foo']/te:connections/te:connection/te:name)"/>
     </te:connections>
 Â  </te:te>
</filter>


Any opinions on whether this would be beneficial or is this just 
reinventing the wheel?

Thanks,
Rob


On 11/10/2017 10:41, t.petch wrote:
> Igor
>
> Thinking laterally, this is a problem that DNS encountered a few decades
> ago and solved, by allowing the server to include additional information
> not specifically requested that the server can see is going to be needed
> for the next step, so if the client asks only about a CNAME, then the
> server can provide the relevant IP address as well.
>
> I suspect that the current rules for Netconf do not allow the server to
> send anything not explicitly requested, which is a shame (IMO).
>
> The DNS approach works very well, in fact I do not think we would
> survive without it.
>
> Tom Petch
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Igor Bryskin" <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 2:35 PM
>
> Hi Rob,
>
> This helps a lot. What you wrote will work.
>
> The only difference is that if we would have the "joimt with" clause as
> we proposed, the server would be able to tailor the te-tunnel
> presentation to the client's requirements, e.g. substituting the
> connection pointers with connection bodies, while, according to your
> suggestion, the server will provide the te-tunnel body as is, and then
> augment it with the cobbection information, thus, leaving
> for the client to "shuffle " the received data. But I do agree, this
> would be a minor inconvinience for the client, the important thing is
> that the client will get all the data in one piece.
>
> Thanks a lot,
> Igor
>
> c
>
> From:Robert Wilton
> To:Igor Bryskin,
> Cc:Per Hedeland,netmod@ietf.org,netconf@ietf.org,
> Date:2017-10-10 06:41:04
> Subject:Re: [netmod] [Netconf] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
>
> Hi Igor,
>
> On 09/10/2017 23:11, Igor Bryskin wrote:
>> Hi Per,
>>
>> This is a good news, but, please, help us out.
>> Consider, we have a node - "te-tunnel" - which among other attributes
> has two key leafref lists:
>> 1) each member of the 1st list points to a "connection" supporting the
> te-tunnel. All connections supporting all te-tunnels are stored in a
> single list of connections.
>> 2) each member of the 2nd list points to a supporting "te-tunnel" -
> the te-tunnel in question depends on. All te=tunnels including the
> te-tunnel in question, are stored in a single list of te-tunnels.
>> The question: how the client can retrieve via a single request all
> attributes of the te-tunnel in question along with all parameters of all
> connections supporting the te-tunnel, but with just pointers to
> supporting te-tunnels (so that the interested client can use the
> pointers to retrieve full data via subsequent separate requests) ?
> I think that it might be something like this (for tunnel name foo):
>
>     /te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo'] |
>
> /te/connections/connection[name=/te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo']/connectio
> ns/connection/name]
>
> E.g. in English, this should equate to something like:
>
> Return all information for tunnel foo AND ALSO
> Return all information for all connections where the connection name
> matches one of the connections listed in tunnel foo.
>
>> Likewise, how the client can ask for full data of the te-tunnel and
> all supporting te-tunnels and just pointers for supporting connections?
> If my xpath above is right, then this would be something roughly like
> this:
>
>     /te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo'] |
>
> /te/tunnels/tunnel[name=/te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo']/supporting-tunnel
> s/supporting-tunnel/name]
>
>
> I'm an XPath novice, so the expressions might be wrong.
>
> https://www.freeformatter.com/xpath-tester.html might be useful. E.g. if
> you can construct a simple XML instance tree of your data, you could
> validate whether the XPath expression works.
>
> I hope that this is of some help,
> Rob
>
>
>> I really appreciate your help,
>>
>> Igor
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Per Hedeland [mailto:per@tail-f.com]
>> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 5:21 PM
>> To: Igor Bryskin
>> Cc: mbj@tail-f.com; xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com; netconf@ietf.org;
> netmod@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
> leafref
>> Just to be clear: what we're suggesting is that you can use the
>> already-existing standard NETCONF XPath capability to achieve the
> desired
>> result - see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6241#section-8.9
>>
>> --Per
>>
>> On 2017-10-09 21:52, Igor Bryskin wrote:
>>> I agree. For example, a leafref may point not to a singls entity, but
> to a list of entities, and the client might want to expand all of them
> into the joint get response.
>>> Igor
>>>
>>> *From:*Per Hedeland
>>> *To:*Martin Bjorklund,
>>> *Cc:*Igor
> Bryskin,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org,
>>> *Date:*2017-10-09 15:12:22
>>> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
> leafref
>>> On 2017-10-09 19:13, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
>>>> Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Per,
>>>>>
>>>>> Basically, what we need is a way for a client to request something
>>>>> like this:
>>>>>
>>>>> get <XPath> joint with <XPath1, XPath2, ..., XPathn>
>>>> ... which is what Per's expression does!  Note that "|" in XPath
> means
>>>> "union".
>>>>
>>>> But as Per explained, it only works in some cases (when the leafref
>>>> acts a "single pointer").
>>> Well, that particular expression works only in that case - but since
> it
>>> is effectively the client that (perhaps based on the data model)
> decides
>>> what the leafref-leafs "mean" (in this case the single key of a
> single
>>> list), other cases can be handled the same way. E.g. multiple
>>> leafref-to-key leafs that together give the keys of a multi-key list
>>> just amounts to a slightly hairier XPath filter...
>>>
>>> --Per
>>>
>>>>> with a server interpreting the request as follows:
>>>>> if a node pointed by XPath contains a pointer (e.g. key leafref)
>>>>> matching one of the XPath from the "joint with" list, then the
> server
>>>>> must provide the entire body of the node pointed by the pointer,
>>>>> otherwise, just the pointer (as it happens today, that is, when no
>>>>> "joint with" list specified).
>>>>>
>>>>> We think that this would allow for the client to optimize the
> number
>>>>> of request-response iterations depending on application/use case.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Igor
>>>>
>>>> /martin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Per Hedeland [mailto:per@tail-f.com]
>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 12:06 PM
>>>>> To: Xufeng Liu
>>>>> Cc: Igor Bryskin; netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>>>> leafref
>>>>>
>>>>> I understand your use case, but a leaf of type leafref does not in
>>>>> general identify a single node in the data tree - the leafref path
>>>>> could
>>>>> be for a non-key leaf, and/or the path could traverse list nodes,
>>>>> and/or
>>>>> the "target" list could have multiple keys and thus multiple
>>>>> leafref-leafs be required to identify a specific list entry.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thus it seems to me that your use case is not a reasonable basis
> for a
>>>>> new protocol operation. My XPath foo isn't very good either, but I
> do
>>>>> believe Robert's suggestion of using an XPath filter could be a way
>>>>> forward. I *think* the filter expression would be something along
> the
>>>>> lines of
>>>>>
>>>>>     /te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo'] |
>>>>>
> /te/explicit-paths/explicit-path[name=/te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo']/pat
> hs/path/explicit-path]
>>>>> --Per
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2017-10-09 15:42, Xufeng Liu wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Per,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From:* Igor Bryskin [mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com]
>>>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, October 8, 2017 7:04 PM
>>>>>> *To:* Igor Bryskin <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>; per@tail-f.com;
>>>>>> *xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com
>>>>>> *Cc:* netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed
> by
>>>>>> *leafref
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Joel,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks, I think I didnt explain our problem correctly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In our case we have a leafref pointing to a te tunnel name, which
>>>>>> happens to be a key to lookup the (axilary) tunnel.  We need a way
> to
>>>>>> include the entire tunnel body (not just a name) into the get
>>>>>> response. This is to optimize the number of iterations between the
>>>>>> client and the server. As Xufeng put it something similar to SQL
> join,
>>>>>> Igor
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From:*Igor Bryskin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *To:*per@tail-f.com,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Date:*2017-10-08 17:36:47
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>>>>> *leafref
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Per,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In a nutshell we would lika for a netconf client to have a way to
>>>>>> instruct the server on whether in response to the get request the
>>>>>> server needs to provide the entire body of a datastore node
> pointed
>>>>>> to by a leafref or just a pointer to said node, so that the node's
>>>>>> body could be retrieved by a subsequent separate request. This is
>>>>>> requested by implementors who want to optimise rhe number of
>>>>>> interactions between a client and its server.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Igor
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From:*Per Hedeland
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *To:*Xufeng Liu,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,'NetMod WG',
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Date:*2017-10-08 14:01:27
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>>>>>> *leafref
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2017-10-06 23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:
>>>>>>> During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS YANG modeling,
> we
>>>>>>> have received a request from implementers: How to minimize the
> number
>>>>>>> of NETCONF/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation efficiency?
>>>>>>> Especially for the case when the operator or client software
> needs to
>>>>>>> retrieve the object contents pointed by a leafref.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For example, given the following simplified TE tunnel model,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> +--rw te
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         +--rw explicit-paths
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         |  +--rw explicit-path* [name]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         |     +--rw name                      string
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         |        +--rw explicit-route-object* [index]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         |           +--rw index                   uint32
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         |           +--rw explicit-route-usage?   identityref
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         +--rw tunnels
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         |  +--rw tunnel* [name]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         |  |  +--rw name                   string
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         |  |  +--rw paths
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         |  |  |  +--rw path* [name]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> |  |  |     +--rw explicit-path?  ->
>>>>>>> |  |  |     ../../../../../explicit-paths/explicit-path/name
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> when the client tries to retrieve a tunnels information based on
> the
>>>>>>> tunnel name, the get operation returns a list of leafrefs
> pointing
>>>>>>> to the paths of the tunnel.
>>>>>> Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you explain exactly what
> your
>>>>>> "get" request is (protocol and payload), and where the "list of
>>>>>> leafref's" (whatever that may be) occurs in the reply?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> */[Xufeng] The get operation is the NETCONF/RESTCON <get>
> protocol
>>>>>> *operation, or the <get-data> operation described in
>>>>>> *https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01 and the
> GET
>>>>>> *operations
>>>>>> on {+restconf}/ds/<datastore> described in
>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00./*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> */ /*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> */We have a list of leafref values because in this example model,
> each
>>>>>> *tunnel contains a list of paths, each of them contains a leafref.
> The
>>>>>> *get returns a value for each instance of such a leafref,
>>>>>> which (as a string value) will be used as a constraint (foreign
> key)
>>>>>> to retrieve the instance of an explicit-path in the model above./*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> JFYI, in case there is some fundamental misunderstanding here: a
> leaf
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> type leafref has a single value - *one* of those that satisfy the
>>>>>> leafref
>>>>>> constraint, in case there are multiple "candidates".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --Per
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The client needs to issue at
>>>>>>> least one more get operation to retrieve the path information
> about
>>>>>>> the given tunnel. The request is to combine these two operations
> into
>>>>>>> one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the RDBMS SQL world, join can be used when SQL select is
>>>>>>> performed, but NETCONF/YANG currently does not have this
> capability.
>>>>>>> Wed like to ask whether such a request is considered reasonable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If the request is reasonable, the next question is how to
>>>>>>> proceed. This seems to be a protocol issue rather than YANG
> modeling
>>>>>>> issue. Is it acceptable to add a new operation to achieve such a
>>>>>>> <get-data> operation with expanded leafrefs?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Comments and suggestions are appreciated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - Xufeng
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> netmod mailing list
>>>>>>> netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Netconf mailing list
>>>>>> Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Netconf mailing list
>>>>> Netconf@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> netmod mailing list
>> netmod@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>> .
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> netmod mailing list
>> netmod@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>>
> .
>


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<html>
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    <p>I've also been thinking about this problem a bit more :-)</p>
    <p>The XPath solution works, but the expression isn't particularly
      nice to write, and I suspect that implementations may struggle to
      implement it efficiently (if they support XPath filtering at all).</p>
    <p>A nicer solution here might be to allow the XPath filters to be
      combined with a subtree filter along the lines of a more advanced
      type of "Attribute Match Expression" sec 6.2.2 of rfc6241.</p>
    <p>E.g. rather than this XPath filter:</p>
    <pre wrap="">/te:te/te:tunnels/te:tunnel[te:name='foo'] |
/te:te/te:connections/te:connection[te:name=/te:te/te:tunnels/te:tunnel[te:name='foo']/te:connections/te:connection/te:name]

</pre>
    <p> Here is example of what a subtree filter combined with an XPath
      filter could potentially look like (which of course isn't valid
      NETCONF/YANG today):</p>
    <pre class="newpage" style="font-size: 13.3333px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">&lt;filter type="subtree-xpath"&gt;
  &lt;te:te xmlns:te="..."&gt;
    &lt;te:tunnels te:name="foo"/&gt;
    &lt;te:connections&gt;
      &lt;filter type="xpath" select="te:name = ../te:tunnels/te:tunnel[te:name='foo']/te:connections/te:connection/te:name)"/&gt;
    &lt;/te:connections&gt;
Â  &lt;/te:te&gt;
&lt;/filter&gt;</pre>
    <br>
    Any opinions on whether this would be beneficial or is this just
    reinventing the wheel?<br>
    <br>
    Thanks,<br>
    Rob<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/10/2017 10:41, t.petch wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:02aa01d34275$192f1840$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net">
      <pre wrap="">Igor

Thinking laterally, this is a problem that DNS encountered a few decades
ago and solved, by allowing the server to include additional information
not specifically requested that the server can see is going to be needed
for the next step, so if the client asks only about a CNAME, then the
server can provide the relevant IP address as well.

I suspect that the current rules for Netconf do not allow the server to
send anything not explicitly requested, which is a shame (IMO).

The DNS approach works very well, in fact I do not think we would
survive without it.

Tom Petch

----- Original Message -----
From: "Igor Bryskin" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com">&lt;Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com&gt;</a>
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 2:35 PM

Hi Rob,

This helps a lot. What you wrote will work.

The only difference is that if we would have the "joimt with" clause as
we proposed, the server would be able to tailor the te-tunnel
presentation to the client's requirements, e.g. substituting the
connection pointers with connection bodies, while, according to your
suggestion, the server will provide the te-tunnel body as is, and then
augment it with the cobbection information, thus, leaving
for the client to "shuffle " the received data. But I do agree, this
would be a minor inconvinience for the client, the important thing is
that the client will get all the data in one piece.

Thanks a lot,
Igor

c

From:Robert Wilton
To:Igor Bryskin,
Cc:Per Hedeland,<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:netmod@ietf.org,netconf@ietf.org">netmod@ietf.org,netconf@ietf.org</a>,
Date:2017-10-10 06:41:04
Subject:Re: [netmod] [Netconf] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref

Hi Igor,

On 09/10/2017 23:11, Igor Bryskin wrote:
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Hi Per,

This is a good news, but, please, help us out.
Consider, we have a node - "te-tunnel" - which among other attributes
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">has two key leafref lists:
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">1) each member of the 1st list points to a "connection" supporting the
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">te-tunnel. All connections supporting all te-tunnels are stored in a
single list of connections.
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">2) each member of the 2nd list points to a supporting "te-tunnel" -
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">the te-tunnel in question depends on. All te=tunnels including the
te-tunnel in question, are stored in a single list of te-tunnels.
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">
The question: how the client can retrieve via a single request all
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">attributes of the te-tunnel in question along with all parameters of all
connections supporting the te-tunnel, but with just pointers to
supporting te-tunnels (so that the interested client can use the
pointers to retrieve full data via subsequent separate requests) ?
I think that it might be something like this (for tunnel name foo):

   /te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo'] |

/te/connections/connection[name=/te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo']/connectio
ns/connection/name]

E.g. in English, this should equate to something like:

Return all information for tunnel foo AND ALSO
Return all information for all connections where the connection name
matches one of the connections listed in tunnel foo.

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">
Likewise, how the client can ask for full data of the te-tunnel and
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">all supporting te-tunnels and just pointers for supporting connections?
If my xpath above is right, then this would be something roughly like
this:

   /te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo'] |

/te/tunnels/tunnel[name=/te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo']/supporting-tunnel
s/supporting-tunnel/name]


I'm an XPath novice, so the expressions might be wrong.

<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.freeformatter.com/xpath-tester.html">https://www.freeformatter.com/xpath-tester.html</a> might be useful. E.g. if
you can construct a simple XML instance tree of your data, you could
validate whether the XPath expression works.

I hope that this is of some help,
Rob


</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">
I really appreciate your help,

Igor


-----Original Message-----
From: Per Hedeland [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:per@tail-f.com">mailto:per@tail-f.com</a>]
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 5:21 PM
To: Igor Bryskin
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mbj@tail-f.com">mbj@tail-f.com</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com">xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:netconf@ietf.org">netconf@ietf.org</a>;
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:netmod@ietf.org">netmod@ietf.org</a>
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">leafref
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">
Just to be clear: what we're suggesting is that you can use the
already-existing standard NETCONF XPath capability to achieve the
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">desired
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">result - see <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6241#section-8.9">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6241#section-8.9</a>

--Per

On 2017-10-09 21:52, Igor Bryskin wrote:
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">I agree. For example, a leafref may point not to a singls entity, but
</pre>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">to a list of entities, and the client might want to expand all of them
into the joint get response.
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">
Igor

*From:*Per Hedeland
*To:*Martin Bjorklund,
*Cc:*Igor
</pre>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">Bryskin,<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org">xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org</a>,
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">*Date:*2017-10-09 15:12:22
*Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
</pre>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">leafref
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">
On 2017-10-09 19:13, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
</pre>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre wrap="">Igor Bryskin <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com">&lt;Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com&gt;</a> wrote:
</pre>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">Hi Per,

Basically, what we need is a way for a client to request something
like this:

get &lt;XPath&gt; joint with &lt;XPath1, XPath2, ..., XPathn&gt;
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap="">... which is what Per's expression does!  Note that "|" in XPath
</pre>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">means
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <pre wrap="">"union".

But as Per explained, it only works in some cases (when the leafref
acts a "single pointer").
</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre wrap="">Well, that particular expression works only in that case - but since
</pre>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">it
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">is effectively the client that (perhaps based on the data model)
</pre>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">decides
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">what the leafref-leafs "mean" (in this case the single key of a
</pre>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">single
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">list), other cases can be handled the same way. E.g. multiple
leafref-to-key leafs that together give the keys of a multi-key list
just amounts to a slightly hairier XPath filter...

--Per

</pre>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">with a server interpreting the request as follows:
if a node pointed by XPath contains a pointer (e.g. key leafref)
matching one of the XPath from the "joint with" list, then the
</pre>
            </blockquote>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">server
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">must provide the entire body of the node pointed by the pointer,
otherwise, just the pointer (as it happens today, that is, when no
"joint with" list specified).

We think that this would allow for the client to optimize the
</pre>
            </blockquote>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">number
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">of request-response iterations depending on application/use case.

Regards,
Igor
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre wrap="">

/martin


</pre>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">




-----Original Message-----
From: Per Hedeland [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:per@tail-f.com">mailto:per@tail-f.com</a>]
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 12:06 PM
To: Xufeng Liu
Cc: Igor Bryskin; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:netconf@ietf.org">netconf@ietf.org</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:netmod@ietf.org">netmod@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
leafref

I understand your use case, but a leaf of type leafref does not in
general identify a single node in the data tree - the leafref path
could
be for a non-key leaf, and/or the path could traverse list nodes,
and/or
the "target" list could have multiple keys and thus multiple
leafref-leafs be required to identify a specific list entry.

Thus it seems to me that your use case is not a reasonable basis
</pre>
            </blockquote>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">for a
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">new protocol operation. My XPath foo isn't very good either, but I
</pre>
            </blockquote>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">do
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">believe Robert's suggestion of using an XPath filter could be a way
forward. I *think* the filter expression would be something along
</pre>
            </blockquote>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">the
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">lines of

   /te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo'] |

</pre>
            </blockquote>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">/te/explicit-paths/explicit-path[name=/te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo']/pat
hs/path/explicit-path]
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <pre wrap="">
--Per

On 2017-10-09 15:42, Xufeng Liu wrote:
</pre>
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <pre wrap="">Hi Per,



*From:* Igor Bryskin [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com">mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com</a>]
*Sent:* Sunday, October 8, 2017 7:04 PM
*To:* Igor Bryskin <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com">&lt;Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com&gt;</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:per@tail-f.com">per@tail-f.com</a>;
*xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com
*Cc:* <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:netconf@ietf.org">netconf@ietf.org</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:netmod@ietf.org">netmod@ietf.org</a>
*Subject:* Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed
</pre>
              </blockquote>
            </blockquote>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">by
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <pre wrap="">*leafref




Hi Joel,

Thanks, I think I didnt explain our problem correctly.

In our case we have a leafref pointing to a te tunnel name, which
happens to be a key to lookup the (axilary) tunnel.  We need a way
</pre>
              </blockquote>
            </blockquote>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">to
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <pre wrap="">include the entire tunnel body (not just a name) into the get
response. This is to optimize the number of iterations between the
client and the server. As Xufeng put it something similar to SQL
</pre>
              </blockquote>
            </blockquote>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">join,
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <pre wrap="">
Igor

*From:*Igor Bryskin

*To:*per@tail-f.com,<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com">xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com</a>,

*Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:netmod@ietf.org">netmod@ietf.org</a>,

*Date:*2017-10-08 17:36:47

*Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
*leafref



Hi Per,

In a nutshell we would lika for a netconf client to have a way to
instruct the server on whether in response to the get request the
server needs to provide the entire body of a datastore node
</pre>
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      <pre wrap="">pointed
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                <pre wrap="">to by a leafref or just a pointer to said node, so that the node's
body could be retrieved by a subsequent separate request. This is
requested by implementors who want to optimise rhe number of
interactions between a client and its server.

Cheers,
Igor

*From:*Per Hedeland

*To:*Xufeng Liu,

*Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,'NetMod WG',

*Date:*2017-10-08 14:01:27

*Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
*leafref



On 2017-10-06 23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:
</pre>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <pre wrap="">During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS YANG modeling,
</pre>
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      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">we
</pre>
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        <blockquote type="cite">
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                  <pre wrap="">have received a request from implementers: How to minimize the
</pre>
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      <pre wrap="">number
</pre>
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                  <pre wrap="">of NETCONF/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation efficiency?
Especially for the case when the operator or client software
</pre>
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      <pre wrap="">needs to
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                  <pre wrap="">retrieve the object contents pointed by a leafref.

For example, given the following simplified TE tunnel model,

+--rw te

       +--rw explicit-paths

       |  +--rw explicit-path* [name]

       |     +--rw name                      string

       |        +--rw explicit-route-object* [index]

       |           +--rw index                   uint32

       |           +--rw explicit-route-usage?   identityref

       +--rw tunnels

       |  +--rw tunnel* [name]

       |  |  +--rw name                   string

       |  |  +--rw paths

       |  |  |  +--rw path* [name]

|  |  |     +--rw explicit-path?  -&gt;
|  |  |     ../../../../../explicit-paths/explicit-path/name

when the client tries to retrieve a tunnels information based on
</pre>
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      <pre wrap="">the
</pre>
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                  <pre wrap="">tunnel name, the get operation returns a list of leafrefs
</pre>
                </blockquote>
              </blockquote>
            </blockquote>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">pointing
</pre>
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                  <pre wrap="">to the paths of the tunnel.
</pre>
                </blockquote>
                <pre wrap="">Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you explain exactly what
</pre>
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            </blockquote>
          </blockquote>
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      <pre wrap="">your
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
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          <blockquote type="cite">
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <pre wrap="">"get" request is (protocol and payload), and where the "list of
leafref's" (whatever that may be) occurs in the reply?

*/[Xufeng] The get operation is the NETCONF/RESTCON &lt;get&gt;
</pre>
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      <pre wrap="">protocol
</pre>
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                <pre wrap="">*operation, or the &lt;get-data&gt; operation described in
*<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01</a> and the
</pre>
              </blockquote>
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      <pre wrap="">GET
</pre>
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                <pre wrap="">*operations
on {+restconf}/ds/&lt;datastore&gt; described in
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00./*">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00./*</a>

*/ /*

*/We have a list of leafref values because in this example model,
</pre>
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      <pre wrap="">each
</pre>
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              <blockquote type="cite">
                <pre wrap="">*tunnel contains a list of paths, each of them contains a leafref.
</pre>
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            </blockquote>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">The
</pre>
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              <blockquote type="cite">
                <pre wrap="">*get returns a value for each instance of such a leafref,
which (as a string value) will be used as a constraint (foreign
</pre>
              </blockquote>
            </blockquote>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">key)
</pre>
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        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <pre wrap="">to retrieve the instance of an explicit-path in the model above./*



JFYI, in case there is some fundamental misunderstanding here: a
</pre>
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      <pre wrap="">leaf
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <blockquote type="cite">
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            <blockquote type="cite">
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <pre wrap="">of
type leafref has a single value - *one* of those that satisfy the
leafref
constraint, in case there are multiple "candidates".

--Per

</pre>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <pre wrap="">The client needs to issue at
least one more get operation to retrieve the path information
</pre>
                </blockquote>
              </blockquote>
            </blockquote>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">about
</pre>
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                  <pre wrap="">the given tunnel. The request is to combine these two operations
</pre>
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          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">into
</pre>
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        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <pre wrap="">one.

In the RDBMS SQL world, join can be used when SQL select is
performed, but NETCONF/YANG currently does not have this
</pre>
                </blockquote>
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            </blockquote>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
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      <pre wrap="">capability.
</pre>
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                  <pre wrap="">
Wed like to ask whether such a request is considered reasonable.

If the request is reasonable, the next question is how to
proceed. This seems to be a protocol issue rather than YANG
</pre>
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        </blockquote>
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      <pre wrap="">modeling
</pre>
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        <blockquote type="cite">
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                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <pre wrap="">issue. Is it acceptable to add a new operation to achieve such a
&lt;get-data&gt; operation with expanded leafrefs?

Comments and suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks,

- Xufeng



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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod</a>

</pre>
                </blockquote>
                <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">&lt;mailto:Netconf@ietf.org&gt;</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a>

</pre>
              </blockquote>
              <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a>

</pre>
            </blockquote>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:netmod@ietf.org">netmod@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod</a>
.

</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">



------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------


</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:netmod@ietf.org">netmod@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod</a>

</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
.

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------160EB91B6F901AE456FBD2D0--


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Subject: [Netconf] Last Call: <draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-06.txt> (Network Configuration Access Control Module) to Internet Standard
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The IESG has received a request from the Network Configuration WG (netconf)
to consider the following document: - 'Network Configuration Access Control
Module'
  <draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-06.txt> as Internet Standard

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final
comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2017-10-25. Exceptionally, comments may be
sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of
the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

Abstract


   The standardization of network configuration interfaces for use with
   the Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF) or RESTCONF protocol
   requires a structured and secure operating environment that promotes
   human usability and multi-vendor interoperability.  There is a need
   for standard mechanisms to restrict NETCONF or RESTCONF protocol
   access for particular users to a pre-configured subset of all
   available NETCONF or RESTCONF protocol operations and content.  This
   document defines such an access control model.

   This document obsoletes RFC 6536.




The file can be obtained via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis/

IESG discussion can be tracked via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis/ballot/


No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.


The document contains these normative downward references.
See RFC 3967 for additional information: 
    draft-ietf-netmod-revised-datastores: Network Management Datastore Architecture (None - IETF stream)
    rfc6991: Common YANG Data Types (Proposed Standard - IETF stream)
    rfc6020: YANG - A Data Modeling Language for the Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF) (Proposed Standard - IETF stream)
    rfc7230: Hypertext Transfer Protocol (HTTP/1.1): Message Syntax and Routing (Proposed Standard - IETF stream)
    rfc6241: Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF) (Proposed Standard - IETF stream)
    rfc6242: Using the NETCONF Protocol over Secure Shell (SSH) (Proposed Standard - IETF stream)
    rfc5277: NETCONF Event Notifications (Proposed Standard - IETF stream)
    rfc8040: RESTCONF Protocol (Proposed Standard - IETF stream)
    rfc7950: The YANG 1.1 Data Modeling Language (Proposed Standard - IETF stream)




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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC8072 (5131)
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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2017 09:08:48 -0700
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To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
Cc: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, "mbj@tail-f.com" <mbj@tail-f.com>,  "warren@kumari.net" <warren@kumari.net>, "mjethanandani@gmail.com" <mjethanandani@gmail.com>,  "rwilton@cisco.com" <rwilton@cisco.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC8072 (5131)
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--001a11411bc6a1e277055b47a350
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 8:36 AM, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:

>
> I think the existing text is correct.  If the resource instance doesn't
> exist, it can only be created.  If it doesn't exist, then it cannot be
> merged, replaced, deleted, or removed.
>
> Kent (co-author)
>
> --
>
> Dear YANG Patch Media Type authors,
>
> What do you think of this proposed errata?
>
>
looks OK


Andy


> Regards, B.
> > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC8072,
> > "YANG Patch Media Type".
> >
> > --------------------------------------
> > You may review the report below and at:
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.rfc-
> 2Deditor.org_errata_eid5131&d=DwICaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=
> KLQjPIYskU70WRcZ0nCQYZ4njobUB-tkMpQKKEBb8eE&s=5HhVTU7yZdrq0Ztpkqoqb2_
> yUmZJ9pk7jGCpEDJSLr0&e=
> >
> > --------------------------------------
> > Type: Technical
> > Reported by: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
> >
> > Section: 2.2
> >
> > Original Text
> > -------------
> > Regarding section 2.2 of RFC 8072, the third paragraph states:
> >
> >
> >                                         ... If the edit does not identify
> >      any existing resource instance and the operation for the edit is not
> >      "create", then the request MUST NOT be processed and a "404 Not
> >      Found" error response MUST be sent by the server.
> >
> > Corrected Text
> > --------------
> >                                        ... If the edit does not identify
> >     any existing resource instance and the operation for the edit is
> >     "delete" or "move" then the request MUST NOT be processed and a
> >     "404 Not Found" error response MUST be sent by the server.
> >
> > Notes
> > -----
> > As per the second paragraph of section 2.2 of RFC 8072, the operations
> are expected to mirror the semantics of the "operation" attribute described
> in Section 7.2 of [RFC6241].
> >
> > The spec also doesn't specify what happens if it is a "create" operation
> and the resource already exists.  It should probably also state that "400
> Bad Request" is returned.
> >
> > Instructions:
> > -------------
> > This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
> > use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
> > rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party
> > can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.
> >
> > --------------------------------------
> > RFC8072 (draft-ietf-netconf-yang-patch-14)
> > --------------------------------------
> > Title               : YANG Patch Media Type
> > Publication Date    : February 2017
> > Author(s)           : A. Bierman, M. Bjorklund, K. Watsen
> > Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
> > Source              : Network Configuration
> > Area                : Operations and Management
> > Stream              : IETF
> > Verifying Party     : IESG
> > .
> >
>
>
>
>

--001a11411bc6a1e277055b47a350
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 8:36 AM, Kent Watsen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:kwatsen@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">kwatsen@juniper.net</a=
>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
I think the existing text is correct.=C2=A0 If the resource instance doesn&=
#39;t exist, it can only be created.=C2=A0 If it doesn&#39;t exist, then it=
 cannot be merged, replaced, deleted, or removed.<br>
<br>
Kent (co-author)<br>
<br>
--<br>
<br>
Dear YANG Patch Media Type authors,<br>
<br>
What do you think of this proposed errata?<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>looks OK</div><div><br></div><div><br>=
</div><div>Andy</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Regards, B.<br>
&gt; The following errata report has been submitted for RFC8072,<br>
&gt; &quot;YANG Patch Media Type&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; ------------------------------<wbr>--------<br>
&gt; You may review the report below and at:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.r=
fc-2Deditor.org_errata_eid5131&amp;d=3DDwICaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0U=
jBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3D9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&=
amp;m=3DKLQjPIYskU70WRcZ0nCQYZ4njobUB-tkMpQKKEBb8eE&amp;s=3D5HhVTU7yZdrq0Zt=
pkqoqb2_yUmZJ9pk7jGCpEDJSLr0&amp;e=3D" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.rfc-<wbr>2D=
editor.org_errata_eid5131&amp;d=3D<wbr>DwICaQ&amp;c=3D<wbr>HAkYuh63rsuhr6Sc=
bfh0UjBXeMK-<wbr>ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3D<wbr>9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBY=
a<wbr>GTvjISlaJdcZo&amp;m=3D<wbr>KLQjPIYskU70WRcZ0nCQYZ4njobUB-<wbr>tkMpQKK=
EBb8eE&amp;s=3D<wbr>5HhVTU7yZdrq0Ztpkqoqb2_<wbr>yUmZJ9pk7jGCpEDJSLr0&amp;e=
=3D</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; ------------------------------<wbr>--------<br>
&gt; Type: Technical<br>
&gt; Reported by: Robert Wilton &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com">rw=
ilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Section: 2.2<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Original Text<br>
&gt; -------------<br>
&gt; Regarding section 2.2 of RFC 8072, the third paragraph states:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0... If the edit does not identify<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 any existing resource instance and the operation f=
or the edit is not<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;create&quot;, then the request MUST NOT be p=
rocessed and a &quot;404 Not<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Found&quot; error response MUST be sent by the ser=
ver.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Corrected Text<br>
&gt; --------------<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ... I=
f the edit does not identify<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0any existing resource instance and the operation fo=
r the edit is<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;delete&quot; or &quot;move&quot; then the req=
uest MUST NOT be processed and a<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;404 Not Found&quot; error response MUST be se=
nt by the server.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Notes<br>
&gt; -----<br>
&gt; As per the second paragraph of section 2.2 of RFC 8072, the operations=
 are expected to mirror the semantics of the &quot;operation&quot; attribut=
e described in Section 7.2 of [RFC6241].<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The spec also doesn&#39;t specify what happens if it is a &quot;create=
&quot; operation and the resource already exists.=C2=A0 It should probably =
also state that &quot;400 Bad Request&quot; is returned.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Instructions:<br>
&gt; -------------<br>
&gt; This erratum is currently posted as &quot;Reported&quot;. If necessary=
, please<br>
&gt; use &quot;Reply All&quot; to discuss whether it should be verified or<=
br>
&gt; rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party<br>
&gt; can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; ------------------------------<wbr>--------<br>
&gt; RFC8072 (draft-ietf-netconf-yang-<wbr>patch-14)<br>
&gt; ------------------------------<wbr>--------<br>
&gt; Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: YANG Pat=
ch Media Type<br>
&gt; Publication Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 : February 2017<br>
&gt; Author(s)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: A. Bierman, M. Bjo=
rklund, K. Watsen<br>
&gt; Category=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : PROPOSED STANDARD<=
br>
&gt; Source=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Network Confi=
guration<br>
&gt; Area=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Operatio=
ns and Management<br>
&gt; Stream=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : IETF<br>
&gt; Verifying Party=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: IESG<br>
&gt; .<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a11411bc6a1e277055b47a350--


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To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, "andy@yumaworks.com" <andy@yumaworks.com>, "mbj@tail-f.com" <mbj@tail-f.com>, "warren@kumari.net" <warren@kumari.net>, "mjethanandani@gmail.com" <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
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From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC8072 (5131)
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--------------7E630B0320D01A86FED040FD
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Hi Kent,

But the previous paragraph in the draft states:

    The "merge", "replace", "create", "delete", and "remove" edit
    operations have exactly the same meanings as those defined for the
    "operation" attribute described inSectionÂ 7.2 of [RFC6241] <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6241#section-7.2>.


That NETCONF section allows "merge" and "replace" on nodes that don't 
exist (they are just created).Â  Also a "remove" on a data node that 
doesn't exist doesn't return any error.Â  It is just a silent no-op.

So, it seems that the YANG Patch semantics are not the same as for 
NETCONF, which seems to conflict with the previous paragraph quoted above.

Thanks,
Rob


On 11/10/2017 16:36, Kent Watsen wrote:
> I think the existing text is correct.  If the resource instance doesn't exist, it can only be created.  If it doesn't exist, then it cannot be merged, replaced, deleted, or removed.
>
> Kent (co-author)
>
> --
>
> Dear YANG Patch Media Type authors,
>
> What do you think of this proposed errata?
>
> Regards, B.
>> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC8072,
>> "YANG Patch Media Type".
>>
>> --------------------------------------
>> You may review the report below and at:
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.rfc-2Deditor.org_errata_eid5131&d=DwICaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=KLQjPIYskU70WRcZ0nCQYZ4njobUB-tkMpQKKEBb8eE&s=5HhVTU7yZdrq0Ztpkqoqb2_yUmZJ9pk7jGCpEDJSLr0&e=
>>
>> --------------------------------------
>> Type: Technical
>> Reported by: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
>>
>> Section: 2.2
>>
>> Original Text
>> -------------
>> Regarding section 2.2 of RFC 8072, the third paragraph states:
>>
>>
>>                                          ... If the edit does not identify
>>       any existing resource instance and the operation for the edit is not
>>       "create", then the request MUST NOT be processed and a "404 Not
>>       Found" error response MUST be sent by the server.
>>
>> Corrected Text
>> --------------
>>                                         ... If the edit does not identify
>>      any existing resource instance and the operation for the edit is
>>      "delete" or "move" then the request MUST NOT be processed and a
>>      "404 Not Found" error response MUST be sent by the server.
>>
>> Notes
>> -----
>> As per the second paragraph of section 2.2 of RFC 8072, the operations are expected to mirror the semantics of the "operation" attribute described in Section 7.2 of [RFC6241].
>>
>> The spec also doesn't specify what happens if it is a "create" operation and the resource already exists.  It should probably also state that "400 Bad Request" is returned.
>>
>> Instructions:
>> -------------
>> This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
>> use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
>> rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party
>> can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.
>>
>> --------------------------------------
>> RFC8072 (draft-ietf-netconf-yang-patch-14)
>> --------------------------------------
>> Title               : YANG Patch Media Type
>> Publication Date    : February 2017
>> Author(s)           : A. Bierman, M. Bjorklund, K. Watsen
>> Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
>> Source              : Network Configuration
>> Area                : Operations and Management
>> Stream              : IETF
>> Verifying Party     : IESG
>> .
>>
>
>


--------------7E630B0320D01A86FED040FD
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
  </head>
  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    Hi Kent,<br>
    <br>
    But the previous paragraph in the draft states:<br>
    <br>
    <pre class="newpage" style="font-size: 13.3333px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">   The "merge", "replace", "create", "delete", and "remove" edit
   operations have exactly the same meanings as those defined for the
   "operation" attribute described in <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6241#section-7.2">SectionÂ 7.2 of [RFC6241]</a>.


</pre>
    That NETCONF section allows "merge" and "replace" on nodes that
    don't exist (they are just created).Â  Also a "remove" on a data node
    that doesn't exist doesn't return any error.Â  It is just a silent
    no-op.<br>
    <br>
    So, it seems that the YANG Patch semantics are not the same as for
    NETCONF, which seems to conflict with the previous paragraph quoted
    above.<br>
    <br>
    Thanks,<br>
    Rob<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/10/2017 16:36, Kent Watsen wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:F149BE7A-07C8-42CE-92AF-4355E6B409E0@juniper.net">
      <pre wrap="">
I think the existing text is correct.  If the resource instance doesn't exist, it can only be created.  If it doesn't exist, then it cannot be merged, replaced, deleted, or removed.

Kent (co-author)

--

Dear YANG Patch Media Type authors,

What do you think of this proposed errata?

Regards, B.
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">The following errata report has been submitted for RFC8072,
"YANG Patch Media Type".

--------------------------------------
You may review the report below and at:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.rfc-2Deditor.org_errata_eid5131&amp;d=DwICaQ&amp;c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&amp;m=KLQjPIYskU70WRcZ0nCQYZ4njobUB-tkMpQKKEBb8eE&amp;s=5HhVTU7yZdrq0Ztpkqoqb2_yUmZJ9pk7jGCpEDJSLr0&amp;e=">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.rfc-2Deditor.org_errata_eid5131&amp;d=DwICaQ&amp;c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&amp;m=KLQjPIYskU70WRcZ0nCQYZ4njobUB-tkMpQKKEBb8eE&amp;s=5HhVTU7yZdrq0Ztpkqoqb2_yUmZJ9pk7jGCpEDJSLr0&amp;e=</a>

--------------------------------------
Type: Technical
Reported by: Robert Wilton <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rwilton@cisco.com">&lt;rwilton@cisco.com&gt;</a>

Section: 2.2

Original Text
-------------
Regarding section 2.2 of RFC 8072, the third paragraph states:


                                        ... If the edit does not identify
     any existing resource instance and the operation for the edit is not
     "create", then the request MUST NOT be processed and a "404 Not
     Found" error response MUST be sent by the server.

Corrected Text
--------------
                                       ... If the edit does not identify
    any existing resource instance and the operation for the edit is
    "delete" or "move" then the request MUST NOT be processed and a
    "404 Not Found" error response MUST be sent by the server.

Notes
-----
As per the second paragraph of section 2.2 of RFC 8072, the operations are expected to mirror the semantics of the "operation" attribute described in Section 7.2 of [RFC6241].

The spec also doesn't specify what happens if it is a "create" operation and the resource already exists.  It should probably also state that "400 Bad Request" is returned.

Instructions:
-------------
This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party
can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.

--------------------------------------
RFC8072 (draft-ietf-netconf-yang-patch-14)
--------------------------------------
Title               : YANG Patch Media Type
Publication Date    : February 2017
Author(s)           : A. Bierman, M. Bjorklund, K. Watsen
Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
Source              : Network Configuration
Area                : Operations and Management
Stream              : IETF
Verifying Party     : IESG
.

</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">


</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------7E630B0320D01A86FED040FD--


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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2017 09:14:52 -0700
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To: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>,  "mbj@tail-f.com" <mbj@tail-f.com>, "warren@kumari.net" <warren@kumari.net>,  "mjethanandani@gmail.com" <mjethanandani@gmail.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC8072 (5131)
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On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 9:09 AM, Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Kent,
>
> But the previous paragraph in the draft states:
>
>    The "merge", "replace", "create", "delete", and "remove" edit
>    operations have exactly the same meanings as those defined for the
>    "operation" attribute described in Section 7.2 of [RFC6241] <https://t=
ools.ietf.org/html/rfc6241#section-7.2>.
>
>
>
> That NETCONF section allows "merge" and "replace" on nodes that don't
> exist (they are just created).  Also a "remove" on a data node that doesn=
't
> exist doesn't return any error.  It is just a silent no-op.
>
> So, it seems that the YANG Patch semantics are not the same as for
> NETCONF, which seems to conflict with the previous paragraph quoted above=
.
>

YANG Patch returns an error for delete on a missing target resource  and
none of the
the other operations listed in that paragraph.  They do behave the same.


> Thanks,
> Rob
>

Andy


>
>
> On 11/10/2017 16:36, Kent Watsen wrote:
>
> I think the existing text is correct.  If the resource instance doesn't e=
xist, it can only be created.  If it doesn't exist, then it cannot be merge=
d, replaced, deleted, or removed.
>
> Kent (co-author)
>
> --
>
> Dear YANG Patch Media Type authors,
>
> What do you think of this proposed errata?
>
> Regards, B.
>
> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC8072,
> "YANG Patch Media Type".
>
> --------------------------------------
> You may review the report below and at:https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/=
v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.rfc-2Deditor.org_errata_eid5131&d=3DDwICaQ&c=3DHAkY=
uh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3D9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaG=
TvjISlaJdcZo&m=3DKLQjPIYskU70WRcZ0nCQYZ4njobUB-tkMpQKKEBb8eE&s=3D5HhVTU7yZd=
rq0Ztpkqoqb2_yUmZJ9pk7jGCpEDJSLr0&e=3D
>
> --------------------------------------
> Type: Technical
> Reported by: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> <rwilton@cisco.com>
>
> Section: 2.2
>
> Original Text
> -------------
> Regarding section 2.2 of RFC 8072, the third paragraph states:
>
>
>                                         ... If the edit does not identify
>      any existing resource instance and the operation for the edit is not
>      "create", then the request MUST NOT be processed and a "404 Not
>      Found" error response MUST be sent by the server.
>
> Corrected Text
> --------------
>                                        ... If the edit does not identify
>     any existing resource instance and the operation for the edit is
>     "delete" or "move" then the request MUST NOT be processed and a
>     "404 Not Found" error response MUST be sent by the server.
>
> Notes
> -----
> As per the second paragraph of section 2.2 of RFC 8072, the operations ar=
e expected to mirror the semantics of the "operation" attribute described i=
n Section 7.2 of [RFC6241].
>
> The spec also doesn't specify what happens if it is a "create" operation =
and the resource already exists.  It should probably also state that "400 B=
ad Request" is returned.
>
> Instructions:
> -------------
> This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
> use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
> rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party
> can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.
>
> --------------------------------------
> RFC8072 (draft-ietf-netconf-yang-patch-14)
> --------------------------------------
> Title               : YANG Patch Media Type
> Publication Date    : February 2017
> Author(s)           : A. Bierman, M. Bjorklund, K. Watsen
> Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
> Source              : Network Configuration
> Area                : Operations and Management
> Stream              : IETF
> Verifying Party     : IESG
> .
>
>
>
>

--001a114d31ea553272055b47b97c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 9:09 AM, Robert Wilton <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&=
gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    Hi Kent,<br>
    <br>
    But the previous paragraph in the draft states:<br>
    <br>
    <pre class=3D"m_8634672268077873306newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-=
variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter=
-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-s=
pacing:0px;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">   =
The &quot;merge&quot;, &quot;replace&quot;, &quot;create&quot;, &quot;delet=
e&quot;, and &quot;remove&quot; edit
   operations have exactly the same meanings as those defined for the
   &quot;operation&quot; attribute described in <a href=3D"https://tools.ie=
tf.org/html/rfc6241#section-7.2" target=3D"_blank">Section=C2=A07.2 of [RFC=
6241]</a>.


</pre>
    That NETCONF section allows &quot;merge&quot; and &quot;replace&quot; o=
n nodes that
    don&#39;t exist (they are just created).=C2=A0 Also a &quot;remove&quot=
; on a data node
    that doesn&#39;t exist doesn&#39;t return any error.=C2=A0 It is just a=
 silent
    no-op.<br>
    <br>
    So, it seems that the YANG Patch semantics are not the same as for
    NETCONF, which seems to conflict with the previous paragraph quoted
    above.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>YANG Patch returns an =
error for delete on a missing target resource =C2=A0and none of the</div><d=
iv>the other operations listed in that paragraph.=C2=A0 They do behave the =
same.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div text=3D"#0000=
00" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <br>
    Thanks,<br>
    Rob<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div>=C2=A0</di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class=3D"m_8634672268077873306moz-cite-prefix">On 11/10/2017 16:36=
, Kent Watsen wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <pre>I think the existing text is correct.  If the resource instance =
doesn&#39;t exist, it can only be created.  If it doesn&#39;t exist, then i=
t cannot be merged, replaced, deleted, or removed.

Kent (co-author)

--

Dear YANG Patch Media Type authors,

What do you think of this proposed errata?

Regards, B.
</pre>
      <blockquote type=3D"cite">
        <pre>The following errata report has been submitted for RFC8072,
&quot;YANG Patch Media Type&quot;.

------------------------------<wbr>--------
You may review the report below and at:
<a class=3D"m_8634672268077873306moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://url=
defense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.rfc-2Deditor.org_errata_eid5=
131&amp;d=3DDwICaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;=
r=3D9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&amp;m=3DKLQjPIYskU70WRcZ0nC=
QYZ4njobUB-tkMpQKKEBb8eE&amp;s=3D5HhVTU7yZdrq0Ztpkqoqb2_yUmZJ9pk7jGCpEDJSLr=
0&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url=
?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.rfc-<wbr>2Deditor.org_errata_eid5131&amp;d=3D<wbr>DwICaQ&=
amp;c=3D<wbr>HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-<wbr>ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3D<wbr>=
9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYa<wbr>GTvjISlaJdcZo&amp;m=3D<wbr>KLQjPIYskU70W=
RcZ0nCQYZ4njobUB-<wbr>tkMpQKKEBb8eE&amp;s=3D<wbr>5HhVTU7yZdrq0Ztpkqoqb2_<wb=
r>yUmZJ9pk7jGCpEDJSLr0&amp;e=3D</a>

------------------------------<wbr>--------
Type: Technical
Reported by: Robert Wilton <a class=3D"m_8634672268077873306moz-txt-link-rf=
c2396E" href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;rwilton@cis=
co.com&gt;</a>

Section: 2.2

Original Text
-------------
Regarding section 2.2 of RFC 8072, the third paragraph states:


                                        ... If the edit does not identify
     any existing resource instance and the operation for the edit is not
     &quot;create&quot;, then the request MUST NOT be processed and a &quot=
;404 Not
     Found&quot; error response MUST be sent by the server.

Corrected Text
--------------
                                       ... If the edit does not identify
    any existing resource instance and the operation for the edit is
    &quot;delete&quot; or &quot;move&quot; then the request MUST NOT be pro=
cessed and a
    &quot;404 Not Found&quot; error response MUST be sent by the server.

Notes
-----
As per the second paragraph of section 2.2 of RFC 8072, the operations are =
expected to mirror the semantics of the &quot;operation&quot; attribute des=
cribed in Section 7.2 of [RFC6241].

The spec also doesn&#39;t specify what happens if it is a &quot;create&quot=
; operation and the resource already exists.  It should probably also state=
 that &quot;400 Bad Request&quot; is returned.

Instructions:
-------------
This erratum is currently posted as &quot;Reported&quot;. If necessary, ple=
ase
use &quot;Reply All&quot; to discuss whether it should be verified or
rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party
can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.

------------------------------<wbr>--------
RFC8072 (draft-ietf-netconf-yang-<wbr>patch-14)
------------------------------<wbr>--------
Title               : YANG Patch Media Type
Publication Date    : February 2017
Author(s)           : A. Bierman, M. Bjorklund, K. Watsen
Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
Source              : Network Configuration
Area                : Operations and Management
Stream              : IETF
Verifying Party     : IESG
.

</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre></pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a114d31ea553272055b47b97c--


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To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
Cc: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, "mbj@tail-f.com" <mbj@tail-f.com>, "warren@kumari.net" <warren@kumari.net>, "mjethanandani@gmail.com" <mjethanandani@gmail.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC8072 (5131)
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On 11/10/2017 17:08, Andy Bierman wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 8:36 AM, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net 
> <mailto:kwatsen@juniper.net>> wrote:
>
>
>     I think the existing text is correct.Â  If the resource instance
>     doesn't exist, it can only be created.Â  If it doesn't exist, then
>     it cannot be merged, replaced, deleted, or removed.
>
>     Kent (co-author)
>
>     --
>
>     Dear YANG Patch Media Type authors,
>
>     What do you think of this proposed errata?
>
>
> looks OK
Do you mean the existing text looks OK, or the errata looks OK?

Thanks,
Rob


>
>
> Andy
>
>     Regards, B.
>     > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC8072,
>     > "YANG Patch Media Type".
>     >
>     > --------------------------------------
>     > You may review the report below and at:
>     >
>     https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.rfc-2Deditor.org_errata_eid5131&d=DwICaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=KLQjPIYskU70WRcZ0nCQYZ4njobUB-tkMpQKKEBb8eE&s=5HhVTU7yZdrq0Ztpkqoqb2_yUmZJ9pk7jGCpEDJSLr0&e=
>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.rfc-2Deditor.org_errata_eid5131&d=DwICaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=KLQjPIYskU70WRcZ0nCQYZ4njobUB-tkMpQKKEBb8eE&s=5HhVTU7yZdrq0Ztpkqoqb2_yUmZJ9pk7jGCpEDJSLr0&e=>
>     >
>     > --------------------------------------
>     > Type: Technical
>     > Reported by: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com
>     <mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>>
>     >
>     > Section: 2.2
>     >
>     > Original Text
>     > -------------
>     > Regarding section 2.2 of RFC 8072, the third paragraph states:
>     >
>     >
>     >Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â ... If the edit does not
>     identify
>     >Â  Â  Â  any existing resource instance and the operation for the
>     edit is not
>     >Â  Â  Â  "create", then the request MUST NOT be processed and a "404 Not
>     >Â  Â  Â  Found" error response MUST be sent by the server.
>     >
>     > Corrected Text
>     > --------------
>     >Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  ... If the edit does not
>     identify
>     >Â  Â  Â any existing resource instance and the operation for the edit is
>     >Â  Â  Â "delete" or "move" then the request MUST NOT be processed and a
>     >Â  Â  Â "404 Not Found" error response MUST be sent by the server.
>     >
>     > Notes
>     > -----
>     > As per the second paragraph of section 2.2 of RFC 8072, the
>     operations are expected to mirror the semantics of the "operation"
>     attribute described in Section 7.2 of [RFC6241].
>     >
>     > The spec also doesn't specify what happens if it is a "create"
>     operation and the resource already exists.Â  It should probably
>     also state that "400 Bad Request" is returned.
>     >
>     > Instructions:
>     > -------------
>     > This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
>     > use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
>     > rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party
>     > can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.
>     >
>     > --------------------------------------
>     > RFC8072 (draft-ietf-netconf-yang-patch-14)
>     > --------------------------------------
>     > TitleÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â : YANG Patch Media Type
>     > Publication DateÂ  Â  : February 2017
>     > Author(s)Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â : A. Bierman, M. Bjorklund, K. Watsen
>     > CategoryÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  : PROPOSED STANDARD
>     > SourceÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  : Network Configuration
>     > AreaÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  : Operations and Management
>     > StreamÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  : IETF
>     > Verifying PartyÂ  Â  Â : IESG
>     > .
>     >
>
>
>
>


--------------620DE273177EB7B14DBB90C9
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    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
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  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/10/2017 17:08, Andy Bierman
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABCOCHQQwikChSfgyZHSqtvbra9yfF=dP4DnVOFRj=Q2wGoR-w@mail.gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
      <div dir="ltr"><br>
        <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
          <div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 8:36 AM, Kent
            Watsen <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a
                href="mailto:kwatsen@juniper.net" target="_blank"
                moz-do-not-send="true">kwatsen@juniper.net</a>&gt;</span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
              I think the existing text is correct.Â  If the resource
              instance doesn't exist, it can only be created.Â  If it
              doesn't exist, then it cannot be merged, replaced,
              deleted, or removed.<br>
              <br>
              Kent (co-author)<br>
              <br>
              --<br>
              <br>
              Dear YANG Patch Media Type authors,<br>
              <br>
              What do you think of this proposed errata?<br>
              <br>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>looks OK</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    Do you mean the existing text looks OK, or the errata looks OK?<br>
    <br>
    Thanks,<br>
    Rob<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABCOCHQQwikChSfgyZHSqtvbra9yfF=dP4DnVOFRj=Q2wGoR-w@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div class="gmail_extra">
          <div class="gmail_quote">
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Andy</div>
            <div>Â </div>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              Regards, B.<br>
              &gt; The following errata report has been submitted for
              RFC8072,<br>
              &gt; "YANG Patch Media Type".<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; ------------------------------<wbr>--------<br>
              &gt; You may review the report below and at:<br>
              &gt; <a
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.rfc-2Deditor.org_errata_eid5131&amp;d=DwICaQ&amp;c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&amp;m=KLQjPIYskU70WRcZ0nCQYZ4njobUB-tkMpQKKEBb8eE&amp;s=5HhVTU7yZdrq0Ztpkqoqb2_yUmZJ9pk7jGCpEDJSLr0&amp;e="
                rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.rfc-<wbr>2Deditor.org_errata_eid5131&amp;d=<wbr>DwICaQ&amp;c=<wbr>HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-<wbr>ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=<wbr>9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYa<wbr>GTvjISlaJdcZo&amp;m=<wbr>KLQjPIYskU70WRcZ0nCQYZ4njobUB-<wbr>tkMpQKKEBb8eE&amp;s=<wbr>5HhVTU7yZdrq0Ztpkqoqb2_<wbr>yUmZJ9pk7jGCpEDJSLr0&amp;e=</a><br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; ------------------------------<wbr>--------<br>
              &gt; Type: Technical<br>
              &gt; Reported by: Robert Wilton &lt;<a
                href="mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" moz-do-not-send="true">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; Section: 2.2<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; Original Text<br>
              &gt; -------------<br>
              &gt; Regarding section 2.2 of RFC 8072, the third
              paragraph states:<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt;Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â ... If the
              edit does not identify<br>
              &gt;Â  Â  Â  any existing resource instance and the operation
              for the edit is not<br>
              &gt;Â  Â  Â  "create", then the request MUST NOT be processed
              and a "404 Not<br>
              &gt;Â  Â  Â  Found" error response MUST be sent by the
              server.<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; Corrected Text<br>
              &gt; --------------<br>
              &gt;Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  ... If the
              edit does not identify<br>
              &gt;Â  Â  Â any existing resource instance and the operation
              for the edit is<br>
              &gt;Â  Â  Â "delete" or "move" then the request MUST NOT be
              processed and a<br>
              &gt;Â  Â  Â "404 Not Found" error response MUST be sent by
              the server.<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; Notes<br>
              &gt; -----<br>
              &gt; As per the second paragraph of section 2.2 of RFC
              8072, the operations are expected to mirror the semantics
              of the "operation" attribute described in Section 7.2 of
              [RFC6241].<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; The spec also doesn't specify what happens if it is a
              "create" operation and the resource already exists.Â  It
              should probably also state that "400 Bad Request" is
              returned.<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; Instructions:<br>
              &gt; -------------<br>
              &gt; This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If
              necessary, please<br>
              &gt; use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be
              verified or<br>
              &gt; rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying
              party<br>
              &gt; can log in to change the status and edit the report,
              if necessary.<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; ------------------------------<wbr>--------<br>
              &gt; RFC8072 (draft-ietf-netconf-yang-<wbr>patch-14)<br>
              &gt; ------------------------------<wbr>--------<br>
              &gt; TitleÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â : YANG Patch Media Type<br>
              &gt; Publication DateÂ  Â  : February 2017<br>
              &gt; Author(s)Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â : A. Bierman, M. Bjorklund, K.
              Watsen<br>
              &gt; CategoryÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  : PROPOSED STANDARD<br>
              &gt; SourceÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  : Network Configuration<br>
              &gt; AreaÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  : Operations and Management<br>
              &gt; StreamÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  : IETF<br>
              &gt; Verifying PartyÂ  Â  Â : IESG<br>
              &gt; .<br>
              &gt;<br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <br>
            </blockquote>
          </div>
          <br>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------620DE273177EB7B14DBB90C9--


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References: <20170928105016.B2A88B81896@rfc-editor.org> <b6c0cf18-eba4-f4e0-4802-bfe524095b57@cisco.com> <F149BE7A-07C8-42CE-92AF-4355E6B409E0@juniper.net> <CABCOCHQQwikChSfgyZHSqtvbra9yfF=dP4DnVOFRj=Q2wGoR-w@mail.gmail.com> <37f4923d-ae1d-c215-109a-5caa1e6406ca@cisco.com>
From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2017 09:23:37 -0700
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To: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>,  "mbj@tail-f.com" <mbj@tail-f.com>, "warren@kumari.net" <warren@kumari.net>,  "mjethanandani@gmail.com" <mjethanandani@gmail.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC8072 (5131)
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--94eb2c1ce05e9dfec4055b47d8bb
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 9:18 AM, Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 11/10/2017 17:08, Andy Bierman wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 8:36 AM, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> I think the existing text is correct.  If the resource instance doesn't
>> exist, it can only be created.  If it doesn't exist, then it cannot be
>> merged, replaced, deleted, or removed.
>>
>> Kent (co-author)
>>
>> --
>>
>> Dear YANG Patch Media Type authors,
>>
>> What do you think of this proposed errata?
>>
>>
> looks OK
>
> Do you mean the existing text looks OK, or the errata looks OK?
>

errata


>
> Thanks,
> Rob
>
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>> Regards, B.
>> > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC8072,
>> > "YANG Patch Media Type".
>> >
>> > --------------------------------------
>> > You may review the report below and at:
>> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.rfc-
>> 2Deditor.org_errata_eid5131&d=DwICaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0U
>> jBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjI
>> SlaJdcZo&m=KLQjPIYskU70WRcZ0nCQYZ4njobUB-tkMpQKKEBb8eE&s=5Hh
>> VTU7yZdrq0Ztpkqoqb2_yUmZJ9pk7jGCpEDJSLr0&e=
>> >
>> > --------------------------------------
>> > Type: Technical
>> > Reported by: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
>> >
>> > Section: 2.2
>> >
>> > Original Text
>> > -------------
>> > Regarding section 2.2 of RFC 8072, the third paragraph states:
>> >
>> >
>> >                                         ... If the edit does not
>> identify
>> >      any existing resource instance and the operation for the edit is
>> not
>> >      "create", then the request MUST NOT be processed and a "404 Not
>> >      Found" error response MUST be sent by the server.
>> >
>> > Corrected Text
>> > --------------
>> >                                        ... If the edit does not identify
>> >     any existing resource instance and the operation for the edit is
>> >     "delete" or "move" then the request MUST NOT be processed and a
>> >     "404 Not Found" error response MUST be sent by the server.
>> >
>> > Notes
>> > -----
>> > As per the second paragraph of section 2.2 of RFC 8072, the operations
>> are expected to mirror the semantics of the "operation" attribute described
>> in Section 7.2 of [RFC6241].
>> >
>> > The spec also doesn't specify what happens if it is a "create"
>> operation and the resource already exists.  It should probably also state
>> that "400 Bad Request" is returned.
>> >
>> > Instructions:
>> > -------------
>> > This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
>> > use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
>> > rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party
>> > can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.
>> >
>> > --------------------------------------
>> > RFC8072 (draft-ietf-netconf-yang-patch-14)
>> > --------------------------------------
>> > Title               : YANG Patch Media Type
>> > Publication Date    : February 2017
>> > Author(s)           : A. Bierman, M. Bjorklund, K. Watsen
>> > Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
>> > Source              : Network Configuration
>> > Area                : Operations and Management
>> > Stream              : IETF
>> > Verifying Party     : IESG
>> > .
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

--94eb2c1ce05e9dfec4055b47d8bb
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 9:18 AM, Robert Wilton <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:rwilton@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&=
gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class=3D"m_-415304215207653092moz-cite-prefix">On 11/10/2017 17:08=
, Andy Bierman
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
     =20
      <div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 8:36 AM, Kent
            Watsen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kwatsen@juniper.=
net" target=3D"_blank">kwatsen@juniper.net</a>&gt;</span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
              I think the existing text is correct.=C2=A0 If the resource
              instance doesn&#39;t exist, it can only be created.=C2=A0 If =
it
              doesn&#39;t exist, then it cannot be merged, replaced,
              deleted, or removed.<br>
              <br>
              Kent (co-author)<br>
              <br>
              --<br>
              <br>
              Dear YANG Patch Media Type authors,<br>
              <br>
              What do you think of this proposed errata?<br>
              <br>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>looks OK</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    Do you mean the existing text looks OK, or the errata looks OK?<br></di=
v></blockquote><div><br></div><div>errata</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex"><div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <br>
    Thanks,<br>
    Rob<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div class=3D"gmail_extra">
          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Andy</div>
            <div>=C2=A0</div>
            <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              Regards, B.<br>
              &gt; The following errata report has been submitted for
              RFC8072,<br>
              &gt; &quot;YANG Patch Media Type&quot;.<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; ------------------------------<wbr>--------<br>
              &gt; You may review the report below and at:<br>
              &gt; <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3D=
http-3A__www.rfc-2Deditor.org_errata_eid5131&amp;d=3DDwICaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh6=
3rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3D9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYa=
GTvjISlaJdcZo&amp;m=3DKLQjPIYskU70WRcZ0nCQYZ4njobUB-tkMpQKKEBb8eE&amp;s=3D5=
HhVTU7yZdrq0Ztpkqoqb2_yUmZJ9pk7jGCpEDJSLr0&amp;e=3D" rel=3D"noreferrer" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__w=
ww.rfc-<wbr>2Deditor.org_errata_eid5131&amp;d=3D<wbr>DwICaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh6=
3rsuhr6Scbfh0U<wbr>jBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3D9zkP0<wbr>xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7=
Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjI<wbr>SlaJdcZo&amp;m=3DKLQjPIYskU70WRcZ0nC<wbr>QYZ4njobUB-tkM=
pQKKEBb8eE&amp;s=3D5Hh<wbr>VTU7yZdrq0Ztpkqoqb2_yUmZJ9pk7j<wbr>GCpEDJSLr0&am=
p;e=3D</a><br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; ------------------------------<wbr>--------<br>
              &gt; Type: Technical<br>
              &gt; Reported by: Robert Wilton &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rwilton=
@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; Section: 2.2<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; Original Text<br>
              &gt; -------------<br>
              &gt; Regarding section 2.2 of RFC 8072, the third
              paragraph states:<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0... If the
              edit does not identify<br>
              &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 any existing resource instance and t=
he operation
              for the edit is not<br>
              &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;create&quot;, then the request=
 MUST NOT be processed
              and a &quot;404 Not<br>
              &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Found&quot; error response MUST be s=
ent by the
              server.<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; Corrected Text<br>
              &gt; --------------<br>
              &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 ... If the
              edit does not identify<br>
              &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0any existing resource instance and th=
e operation
              for the edit is<br>
              &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;delete&quot; or &quot;move&quot=
; then the request MUST NOT be
              processed and a<br>
              &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;404 Not Found&quot; error respo=
nse MUST be sent by
              the server.<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; Notes<br>
              &gt; -----<br>
              &gt; As per the second paragraph of section 2.2 of RFC
              8072, the operations are expected to mirror the semantics
              of the &quot;operation&quot; attribute described in Section 7=
.2 of
              [RFC6241].<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; The spec also doesn&#39;t specify what happens if it is =
a
              &quot;create&quot; operation and the resource already exists.=
=C2=A0 It
              should probably also state that &quot;400 Bad Request&quot; i=
s
              returned.<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; Instructions:<br>
              &gt; -------------<br>
              &gt; This erratum is currently posted as &quot;Reported&quot;=
. If
              necessary, please<br>
              &gt; use &quot;Reply All&quot; to discuss whether it should b=
e
              verified or<br>
              &gt; rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying
              party<br>
              &gt; can log in to change the status and edit the report,
              if necessary.<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; ------------------------------<wbr>--------<br>
              &gt; RFC8072 (draft-ietf-netconf-yang-patch<wbr>-14)<br>
              &gt; ------------------------------<wbr>--------<br>
              &gt; Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0: YANG Patch Media Type<br>
              &gt; Publication Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 : February 2017<br>
              &gt; Author(s)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: A. B=
ierman, M. Bjorklund, K.
              Watsen<br>
              &gt; Category=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : PROP=
OSED STANDARD<br>
              &gt; Source=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 :=
 Network Configuration<br>
              &gt; Area=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 : Operations and Management<br>
              &gt; Stream=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 :=
 IETF<br>
              &gt; Verifying Party=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: IESG<br>
              &gt; .<br>
              &gt;<br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <br>
            </blockquote>
          </div>
          <br>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--94eb2c1ce05e9dfec4055b47d8bb--


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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, "andy@yumaworks.com" <andy@yumaworks.com>, "mbj@tail-f.com" <mbj@tail-f.com>,  "warren@kumari.net" <warren@kumari.net>, "mjethanandani@gmail.com" <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
CC: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC8072 (5131)
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC8072 (5131)
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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2017 11:12:05 -0700
Message-ID: <CABCOCHR=JOxn73eaJdRzQw0sQuhkNH5ZqYEeoJP8CdAcszV_yg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
Cc: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>,  "mbj@tail-f.com" <mbj@tail-f.com>, "warren@kumari.net" <warren@kumari.net>,  "mjethanandani@gmail.com" <mjethanandani@gmail.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC8072 (5131)
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On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 10:48 AM, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> That NETCONF section allows "merge" and "replace" on nodes that don't
> exist (they are just created).  Also a "remove" on a data node that doesn't
> exist doesn't return any error.  It is just a silent no-op.
>
> So, it seems that the YANG Patch semantics are not the same as for
> NETCONF, which seems to conflict with the previous paragraph quoted above.
>
> <KENT> good point.  I forgot that merge/replace are unintuitive that way.
> Our software calculates the right operation to use every time.
>
But merge and replace do not cause errors if the target is missing, just
like NETCONF.
The only edit operations that require the target to exist (or an error is
returned)
are delete and move (as specified in the errata)


Andy

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 10:48 AM, Kent Watsen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:kwatsen@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">kwatsen@juniper.net</=
a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">







<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_7826102674800123468WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">That NETCONF section =
allows &quot;merge&quot; and &quot;replace&quot; on nodes that don&#39;t ex=
ist (they are just created).=C2=A0 Also a &quot;remove&quot; on a data node=
 that doesn&#39;t exist doesn&#39;t return any error.=C2=A0 It is just a si=
lent no-op.<br>
<br>
So, it seems that the YANG Patch semantics are not the same as for NETCONF,=
 which seems to conflict with the previous paragraph quoted above.<br>
<br>
&lt;KENT&gt; good point.=C2=A0 I forgot that merge/replace are unintuitive =
that way.=C2=A0 Our software calculates the right operation to use every ti=
me.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>But merge and replace do not cause errors if the target =
is missing, just like NETCONF.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">The only edi=
t operations that require the target to exist (or an error is returned)</di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_extra">are delete and move (as specified in the errat=
a)</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Andy</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>=
</div></div>

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From: "Xufeng Liu" <xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com>
To: "'Robert Wilton'" <rwilton@cisco.com>, "'t.petch'" <ietfc@btconnect.com>,  "'Igor Bryskin'" <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>, <netconf@ietf.org>, <netmod@ietf.org>
References: <049501d34104$6aa46670$3fed3350$@gmail.com> <59DB9E54.8080805@tail-f.com> <0C72C38E7EBC34499E8A9E7DD007863909CDB234@SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com> <20171009.191347.1897981146275128665.mbj@tail-f.com> <6f8eb6ff-8fc5-4be3-d582-b188bd2337a6@tail-f.com> <etPan.59dbd366.8bfdc1a.12f7@localhost> <a1af1cd1-9a61-9d1c-49d3-f1e031525f0a@tail-f.com> <0C72C38E7EBC34499E8A9E7DD007863909CDB9E2@SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com> <42819484-f9b5-4f06-dd58-23d9bc8c1ecc@cisco.com> <etPan.59dccc8e.149bf998.1428@localhost> <02aa01d34275$192f1840$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <d391c56c-cdeb-179d-8fbb-2f62d53d727a@cisco.com>
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Hi Rob,

=20

Thanks for the proposal. I think that the subtree does help, to a =
certain extend. The approach is worth mentioning to the implementers, =
though the remaining XPath is still complicated and could be worse for a =
more complex model. The good thing about the approach is that this is =
what we already have today. I agree with Tom on that NETCONF should have =
a better solution, but that may require protocol changes and need to =
cover more generic cases as Per described.

=20

Thanks,

- Xufeng

=20

From: Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Robert =
Wilton
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 6:49 AM
To: t.petch <ietfc@btconnect.com>; Igor Bryskin =
<Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>; netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by =
leafref

=20

I've also been thinking about this problem a bit more :-)

The XPath solution works, but the expression isn't particularly nice to =
write, and I suspect that implementations may struggle to implement it =
efficiently (if they support XPath filtering at all).

A nicer solution here might be to allow the XPath filters to be combined =
with a subtree filter along the lines of a more advanced type of =
"Attribute Match Expression" sec 6.2.2 of rfc6241.

E.g. rather than this XPath filter:

/te:te/te:tunnels/te:tunnel[te:name=3D'foo'] |
/te:te/te:connections/te:connection[te:name=3D/te:te/te:tunnels/te:tunnel=
[te:name=3D'foo']/te:connections/te:connection/te:name]
=20

Here is example of what a subtree filter combined with an XPath filter =
could potentially look like (which of course isn't valid NETCONF/YANG =
today):

<filter type=3D"subtree-xpath">
  <te:te xmlns:te=3D"...">
    <te:tunnels te:name=3D"foo"/>
    <te:connections>
      <filter type=3D"xpath" select=3D"te:name =3D =
../te:tunnels/te:tunnel[te:name=3D'foo']/te:connections/te:connection/te:=
name)"/>
    </te:connections>
  </te:te>
</filter>


Any opinions on whether this would be beneficial or is this just =
reinventing the wheel?

Thanks,
Rob



On 11/10/2017 10:41, t.petch wrote:

Igor
=20
Thinking laterally, this is a problem that DNS encountered a few decades
ago and solved, by allowing the server to include additional information
not specifically requested that the server can see is going to be needed
for the next step, so if the client asks only about a CNAME, then the
server can provide the relevant IP address as well.
=20
I suspect that the current rules for Netconf do not allow the server to
send anything not explicitly requested, which is a shame (IMO).
=20
The DNS approach works very well, in fact I do not think we would
survive without it.
=20
Tom Petch
=20
----- Original Message -----
From: "Igor Bryskin"  <mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com> =
<Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 2:35 PM
=20
Hi Rob,
=20
This helps a lot. What you wrote will work.
=20
The only difference is that if we would have the "joimt with" clause as
we proposed, the server would be able to tailor the te-tunnel
presentation to the client's requirements, e.g. substituting the
connection pointers with connection bodies, while, according to your
suggestion, the server will provide the te-tunnel body as is, and then
augment it with the cobbection information, thus, leaving
for the client to "shuffle " the received data. But I do agree, this
would be a minor inconvinience for the client, the important thing is
that the client will get all the data in one piece.
=20
Thanks a lot,
Igor
=20
c
=20
From:Robert Wilton
To:Igor Bryskin,
Cc:Per Hedeland,netmod@ietf.org,netconf@ietf.org =
<mailto:netmod@ietf.org,netconf@ietf.org> ,
Date:2017-10-10 06:41:04
Subject:Re: [netmod] [Netconf] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
=20
Hi Igor,
=20
On 09/10/2017 23:11, Igor Bryskin wrote:

Hi Per,
=20
This is a good news, but, please, help us out.
Consider, we have a node - "te-tunnel" - which among other attributes

has two key leafref lists:

1) each member of the 1st list points to a "connection" supporting the

te-tunnel. All connections supporting all te-tunnels are stored in a
single list of connections.

2) each member of the 2nd list points to a supporting "te-tunnel" -

the te-tunnel in question depends on. All te=3Dtunnels including the
te-tunnel in question, are stored in a single list of te-tunnels.

=20
The question: how the client can retrieve via a single request all

attributes of the te-tunnel in question along with all parameters of all
connections supporting the te-tunnel, but with just pointers to
supporting te-tunnels (so that the interested client can use the
pointers to retrieve full data via subsequent separate requests) ?
I think that it might be something like this (for tunnel name foo):
=20
   /te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo'] |
=20
/te/connections/connection[name=3D/te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo']/connec=
tio
ns/connection/name]
=20
E.g. in English, this should equate to something like:
=20
Return all information for tunnel foo AND ALSO
Return all information for all connections where the connection name
matches one of the connections listed in tunnel foo.
=20

=20
Likewise, how the client can ask for full data of the te-tunnel and

all supporting te-tunnels and just pointers for supporting connections?
If my xpath above is right, then this would be something roughly like
this:
=20
   /te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo'] |
=20
/te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D/te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo']/supporting-tun=
nel
s/supporting-tunnel/name]
=20
=20
I'm an XPath novice, so the expressions might be wrong.
=20
https://www.freeformatter.com/xpath-tester.html might be useful. E.g. if
you can construct a simple XML instance tree of your data, you could
validate whether the XPath expression works.
=20
I hope that this is of some help,
Rob
=20
=20

=20
I really appreciate your help,
=20
Igor
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Per Hedeland [mailto:per@tail-f.com]
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 5:21 PM
To: Igor Bryskin
Cc: mbj@tail-f.com <mailto:mbj@tail-f.com> ; xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com> ; netconf@ietf.org =
<mailto:netconf@ietf.org> ;

netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>=20

Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by

leafref

=20
Just to be clear: what we're suggesting is that you can use the
already-existing standard NETCONF XPath capability to achieve the

desired

result - see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6241#section-8.9
=20
--Per
=20
On 2017-10-09 21:52, Igor Bryskin wrote:

I agree. For example, a leafref may point not to a singls entity, but

to a list of entities, and the client might want to expand all of them
into the joint get response.

=20
Igor
=20
*From:*Per Hedeland
*To:*Martin Bjorklund,
*Cc:*Igor

Bryskin,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org =
<mailto:xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org> ,

*Date:*2017-10-09 15:12:22
*Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by

leafref

=20
On 2017-10-09 19:13, Martin Bjorklund wrote:

Igor Bryskin  <mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com> <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com> =
wrote:

Hi Per,
=20
Basically, what we need is a way for a client to request something
like this:
=20
get <XPath> joint with <XPath1, XPath2, ..., XPathn>

... which is what Per's expression does!  Note that "|" in XPath

means

"union".
=20
But as Per explained, it only works in some cases (when the leafref
acts a "single pointer").

Well, that particular expression works only in that case - but since

it

is effectively the client that (perhaps based on the data model)

decides

what the leafref-leafs "mean" (in this case the single key of a

single

list), other cases can be handled the same way. E.g. multiple
leafref-to-key leafs that together give the keys of a multi-key list
just amounts to a slightly hairier XPath filter...
=20
--Per
=20

with a server interpreting the request as follows:
if a node pointed by XPath contains a pointer (e.g. key leafref)
matching one of the XPath from the "joint with" list, then the

server

must provide the entire body of the node pointed by the pointer,
otherwise, just the pointer (as it happens today, that is, when no
"joint with" list specified).
=20
We think that this would allow for the client to optimize the

number

of request-response iterations depending on application/use case.
=20
Regards,
Igor

=20
=20
/martin
=20
=20

=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Per Hedeland [mailto:per@tail-f.com]
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 12:06 PM
To: Xufeng Liu
Cc: Igor Bryskin; netconf@ietf.org <mailto:netconf@ietf.org> ; =
netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>=20
Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
leafref
=20
I understand your use case, but a leaf of type leafref does not in
general identify a single node in the data tree - the leafref path
could
be for a non-key leaf, and/or the path could traverse list nodes,
and/or
the "target" list could have multiple keys and thus multiple
leafref-leafs be required to identify a specific list entry.
=20
Thus it seems to me that your use case is not a reasonable basis

for a

new protocol operation. My XPath foo isn't very good either, but I

do

believe Robert's suggestion of using an XPath filter could be a way
forward. I *think* the filter expression would be something along

the

lines of
=20
   /te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo'] |
=20

/te/explicit-paths/explicit-path[name=3D/te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo']/=
pat
hs/path/explicit-path]

=20
--Per
=20
On 2017-10-09 15:42, Xufeng Liu wrote:

Hi Per,
=20
=20
=20
*From:* Igor Bryskin [mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com]
*Sent:* Sunday, October 8, 2017 7:04 PM
*To:* Igor Bryskin  <mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com> =
<Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>; per@tail-f.com <mailto:per@tail-f.com> ;
*xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:*xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com>=20
*Cc:* netconf@ietf.org <mailto:netconf@ietf.org> ; netmod@ietf.org =
<mailto:netmod@ietf.org>=20
*Subject:* Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed

by

*leafref
=20
=20
=20
=20
Hi Joel,
=20
Thanks, I think I didnt explain our problem correctly.
=20
In our case we have a leafref pointing to a te tunnel name, which
happens to be a key to lookup the (axilary) tunnel.  We need a way

to

include the entire tunnel body (not just a name) into the get
response. This is to optimize the number of iterations between the
client and the server. As Xufeng put it something similar to SQL

join,

=20
Igor
=20
*From:*Igor Bryskin
=20
*To:*per@tail-f.com,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com> ,
=20
*Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org> ,
=20
*Date:*2017-10-08 17:36:47
=20
*Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
*leafref
=20
=20
=20
Hi Per,
=20
In a nutshell we would lika for a netconf client to have a way to
instruct the server on whether in response to the get request the
server needs to provide the entire body of a datastore node

pointed

to by a leafref or just a pointer to said node, so that the node's
body could be retrieved by a subsequent separate request. This is
requested by implementors who want to optimise rhe number of
interactions between a client and its server.
=20
Cheers,
Igor
=20
*From:*Per Hedeland
=20
*To:*Xufeng Liu,
=20
*Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,'NetMod WG',
=20
*Date:*2017-10-08 14:01:27
=20
*Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
*leafref
=20
=20
=20
On 2017-10-06 23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:

During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS YANG modeling,

we

have received a request from implementers: How to minimize the

number

of NETCONF/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation efficiency?
Especially for the case when the operator or client software

needs to

retrieve the object contents pointed by a leafref.
=20
For example, given the following simplified TE tunnel model,
=20
+--rw te
=20
       +--rw explicit-paths
=20
       |  +--rw explicit-path* [name]
=20
       |     +--rw name                      string
=20
       |        +--rw explicit-route-object* [index]
=20
       |           +--rw index                   uint32
=20
       |           +--rw explicit-route-usage?   identityref
=20
       +--rw tunnels
=20
       |  +--rw tunnel* [name]
=20
       |  |  +--rw name                   string
=20
       |  |  +--rw paths
=20
       |  |  |  +--rw path* [name]
=20
|  |  |     +--rw explicit-path?  ->
|  |  |     ../../../../../explicit-paths/explicit-path/name
=20
when the client tries to retrieve a tunnels information based on

the

tunnel name, the =1Cget operation returns a list of leafrefs

pointing

to the paths of the tunnel.

Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you explain exactly what

your

"get" request is (protocol and payload), and where the "list of
leafref's" (whatever that may be) occurs in the reply?
=20
*/[Xufeng] The =1Cget operation is the NETCONF/RESTCON <get>

protocol

*operation, or the <get-data> operation described in
*https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01 and the

GET

*operations
on {+restconf}/ds/<datastore> described in
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00./*
=20
*/ /*
=20
*/We have a list of leafref values because in this example model,

each

*tunnel contains a list of paths, each of them contains a leafref.

The

*=1Cget returns a value for each instance of such a leafref,
which (as a string value) will be used as a constraint (foreign

key)

to retrieve the instance of an explicit-path in the model above./*
=20
=20
=20
JFYI, in case there is some fundamental misunderstanding here: a

leaf

of
type leafref has a single value - *one* of those that satisfy the
leafref
constraint, in case there are multiple "candidates".
=20
--Per
=20

The client needs to issue at
least one more =1Cget operation to retrieve the path information

about

the given tunnel. The request is to combine these two operations

into

one.
=20
In the RDBMS SQL world, =1Cjoin can be used when SQL =1Cselect is
performed, but NETCONF/YANG currently does not have this

capability.

=20
Wed like to ask whether such a request is considered reasonable.
=20
If the request is reasonable, the next question is how to
proceed. This seems to be a protocol issue rather than YANG

modeling

issue. Is it acceptable to add a new operation to achieve such a
<get-data> operation with expanded leafrefs?
=20
Comments and suggestions are appreciated.
=20
Thanks,
=20
- Xufeng
=20
=20
=20
_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>   <mailto:netmod@ietf.org> =
<mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
=20

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>   <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
=20

_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>=20
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
=20

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>=20
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
.
=20

=20
=20
=20
=20
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
=20
=20

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>=20
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
=20

=20
.
=20

=20


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite =
lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:windowtext'>Hi =
Rob,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:windowtext'>Thanks for the =
proposal. I think that the subtree does help, to a certain extend. The =
approach is worth mentioning to the implementers, though the remaining =
XPath is still complicated and could be worse for a more complex model. =
The good thing about the approach is that this is what we already have =
today. I agree with Tom on that NETCONF should have a better solution, =
but that may require protocol changes and need to cover more generic =
cases as Per described.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:windowtext'>- =
Xufeng<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'> Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] =
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Wilton<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 11, =
2017 6:49 AM<br><b>To:</b> t.petch &lt;ietfc@btconnect.com&gt;; Igor =
Bryskin &lt;Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com&gt;; netconf@ietf.org; =
netmod@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving =
Information Pointed by leafref<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p>I've also been thinking about =
this problem a bit more :-)<o:p></o:p></p><p>The XPath solution works, =
but the expression isn't particularly nice to write, and I suspect that =
implementations may struggle to implement it efficiently (if they =
support XPath filtering at all).<o:p></o:p></p><p>A nicer solution here =
might be to allow the XPath filters to be combined with a subtree filter =
along the lines of a more advanced type of &quot;Attribute Match =
Expression&quot; sec 6.2.2 of rfc6241.<o:p></o:p></p><p>E.g. rather than =
this XPath =
filter:<o:p></o:p></p><pre>/te:te/te:tunnels/te:tunnel[te:name=3D'foo'] =
|<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>/te:te/te:connections/te:connection[te:name=3D/te:=
te/te:tunnels/te:tunnel[te:name=3D'foo']/te:connections/te:connection/te:=
name]<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><p>Here is example of =
what a subtree filter combined with an XPath filter could potentially =
look like (which of course isn't valid NETCONF/YANG =
today):<o:p></o:p></p><pre style=3D'break-before: =
page;font-variant-ligatures: normal;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: =
2;text-align:start;widows: 2;-webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;text-decoration-style: initial;text-decoration-color: =
initial;word-spacing:0px'>&lt;filter =
type=3D&quot;subtree-xpath&quot;&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=C2=A0 =
&lt;te:te =
xmlns:te=3D&quot;...&quot;&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
&lt;te:tunnels =
te:name=3D&quot;foo&quot;/&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
&lt;te:connections&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 &lt;filter type=3D&quot;xpath&quot; select=3D&quot;te:name =3D =
../te:tunnels/te:tunnel[te:name=3D'foo']/te:connections/te:connection/te:=
name)&quot;/&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
&lt;/te:connections&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp; =
&lt;/te:te&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&lt;/filter&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>Any opinions on =
whether this would be beneficial or is this just reinventing the =
wheel?<br><br>Thanks,<br>Rob<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On 11/10/2017 10:41, t.petch =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>Igor<o:p></o:p></pre>=
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Thinking laterally, this is a problem =
that DNS encountered a few decades<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>ago and solved, =
by allowing the server to include additional =
information<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>not specifically requested that the =
server can see is going to be needed<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>for the next =
step, so if the client asks only about a CNAME, then =
the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>server can provide the relevant IP address as =
well.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>I suspect that =
the current rules for Netconf do not allow the server =
to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>send anything not explicitly requested, which is =
a shame (IMO).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>The DNS =
approach works very well, in fact I do not think we =
would<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>survive without =
it.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Tom =
Petch<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>----- Original =
Message -----<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>From: &quot;Igor Bryskin&quot; <a =
href=3D"mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com">&lt;Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com&gt;</=
a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 2:35 =
PM<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Hi =
Rob,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>This helps a lot. =
What you wrote will =
work.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>The only =
difference is that if we would have the &quot;joimt with&quot; clause =
as<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>we proposed, the server would be able to tailor =
the te-tunnel<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>presentation to the client's =
requirements, e.g. substituting the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>connection =
pointers with connection bodies, while, according to =
your<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>suggestion, the server will provide the =
te-tunnel body as is, and then<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>augment it with the =
cobbection information, thus, leaving<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>for the =
client to &quot;shuffle &quot; the received data. But I do agree, =
this<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>would be a minor inconvinience for the client, =
the important thing is<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>that the client will get all =
the data in one =
piece.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Thanks a =
lot,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Igor<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pr=
e><pre>c<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>From:Robert =
Wilton<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To:Igor Bryskin,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Cc:Per =
Hedeland,<a =
href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org,netconf@ietf.org">netmod@ietf.org,netconf@=
ietf.org</a>,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Date:2017-10-10 =
06:41:04<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Subject:Re: [netmod] [Netconf] Retrieving =
Information Pointed by =
leafref<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Hi =
Igor,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>On 09/10/2017 =
23:11, Igor Bryskin wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>Hi =
Per,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>This is a good =
news, but, please, help us out.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Consider, we have a =
node - &quot;te-tunnel&quot; - which among other =
attributes<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre>has two key leafref =
lists:<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>1) each member of =
the 1st list points to a &quot;connection&quot; supporting =
the<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre>te-tunnel. All connections =
supporting all te-tunnels are stored in a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>single =
list of connections.<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>2) each member of =
the 2nd list points to a supporting &quot;te-tunnel&quot; =
-<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre>the te-tunnel in question depends =
on. All te=3Dtunnels including the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>te-tunnel in =
question, are stored in a single list of =
te-tunnels.<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pr=
e><pre>The question: how the client can retrieve via a single request =
all<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre>attributes of the te-tunnel in =
question along with all parameters of =
all<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>connections supporting the te-tunnel, but with =
just pointers to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>supporting te-tunnels (so that the =
interested client can use the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>pointers to retrieve =
full data via subsequent separate requests) ?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>I =
think that it might be something like this (for tunnel name =
foo):<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
/te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo'] =
|<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>/te/connections/connec=
tion[name=3D/te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo']/connectio<o:p></o:p></pre><p=
re>ns/connection/name]<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>E=
.g. in English, this should equate to something =
like:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Return all =
information for tunnel foo AND ALSO<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Return all =
information for all connections where the connection =
name<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>matches one of the connections listed in =
tunnel foo.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pr=
e><pre>Likewise, how the client can ask for full data of the te-tunnel =
and<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre>all supporting te-tunnels and just =
pointers for supporting connections?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>If my xpath =
above is right, then this would be something roughly =
like<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>this:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p=
re><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 /te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo'] =
|<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>/te/tunnels/tunnel[nam=
e=3D/te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo']/supporting-tunnel<o:p></o:p></pre><p=
re>s/supporting-tunnel/name]<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>=
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>I'm an XPath novice, so the expressions =
might be wrong.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"https://www.freeformatter.com/xpath-tester.html">https://www.free=
formatter.com/xpath-tester.html</a> might be useful. E.g. =
if<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>you can construct a simple XML instance tree of =
your data, you could<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>validate whether the XPath =
expression works.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>I =
hope that this is of some =
help,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Rob<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pr=
e><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pr=
e><pre>I really appreciate your =
help,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Igor<o:p></o:p></p=
re><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>-----Orig=
inal Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>From: Per Hedeland [<a =
href=3D"mailto:per@tail-f.com">mailto:per@tail-f.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></pre=
><pre>Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 5:21 PM<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To: =
Igor Bryskin<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Cc: <a =
href=3D"mailto:mbj@tail-f.com">mbj@tail-f.com</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com">xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com</a>; =
<a =
href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org">netconf@ietf.org</a>;<o:p></o:p></pre></=
blockquote><pre><a =
href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org">netmod@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><bloc=
kquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>Subject: Re: =
[Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed =
by<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre>leafref<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pr=
e><pre>Just to be clear: what we're suggesting is that you can use =
the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>already-existing standard NETCONF XPath =
capability to achieve =
the<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre>desired<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote=
 style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>result - see <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6241#section-8.9">https://tools.ie=
tf.org/html/rfc6241#section-8.9</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></pre><pre>--Per<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>On =
2017-10-09 21:52, Igor Bryskin wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>I agree. For =
example, a leafref may point not to a singls entity, =
but<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote><pre>to a list of =
entities, and the client might want to expand all of =
them<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>into the joint get =
response.<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pr=
e><pre>Igor<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>*From:*Per =
Hedeland<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>*To:*Martin =
Bjorklund,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>*Cc:*Igor<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></=
blockquote><pre>Bryskin,<a =
href=3D"mailto:xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org=
">xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org</a>,<o:p></o=
:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>*Date:*2017-10-09 =
15:12:22<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>*Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] =
Retrieving Information Pointed =
by<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote><pre>leafref<o:p></o:p></pre=
><blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pr=
e><pre>On 2017-10-09 19:13, Martin Bjorklund =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>Igor Bryskin <a =
href=3D"mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com">&lt;Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com&gt;</=
a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>Hi =
Per,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Basically, what we =
need is a way for a client to request =
something<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>like =
this:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>get &lt;XPath&gt; =
joint with &lt;XPath1, XPath2, ..., =
XPathn&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre>... which is what Per's =
expression does!=C2=A0 Note that &quot;|&quot; in =
XPath<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><pre>means<o=
:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>&quot;union&quot;.<o:=
p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>But as Per explained, it =
only works in some cases (when the leafref<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>acts a =
&quot;single pointer&quot;).<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre>Well, =
that particular expression works only in that case - but =
since<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote><pre>it<o:p></o:p></pre><=
blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>is effectively the =
client that (perhaps based on the data =
model)<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote><pre>decides<o:p></o:p><=
/pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>what the =
leafref-leafs &quot;mean&quot; (in this case the single key of =
a<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote><pre>single<o:p></o:p></pre><=
blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>list), other cases =
can be handled the same way. E.g. =
multiple<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>leafref-to-key leafs that together give =
the keys of a multi-key list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>just amounts to a =
slightly hairier XPath =
filter...<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>--Per<o:p></o:=
p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>with a server =
interpreting the request as follows:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>if a node =
pointed by XPath contains a pointer (e.g. key =
leafref)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>matching one of the XPath from the =
&quot;joint with&quot; list, then =
the<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><=
pre>server<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>must provide the =
entire body of the node pointed by the =
pointer,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>otherwise, just the pointer (as it happens =
today, that is, when no<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&quot;joint with&quot; list =
specified).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>We think =
that this would allow for the client to optimize =
the<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><=
pre>number<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>of request-response =
iterations depending on application/use =
case.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Regards,<o:p></o:p=
></pre><pre>Igor<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre=
><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>/martin<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pr=
e><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>-----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>From: Per Hedeland [<a =
href=3D"mailto:per@tail-f.com">mailto:per@tail-f.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></pre=
><pre>Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 12:06 PM<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To: =
Xufeng Liu<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Cc: Igor Bryskin; <a =
href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org">netconf@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org">netmod@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=
Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed =
by<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>leafref<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p=
re><pre>I understand your use case, but a leaf of type leafref does not =
in<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>general identify a single node in the data tree =
- the leafref path<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>could<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>be =
for a non-key leaf, and/or the path could traverse list =
nodes,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>and/or<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>the =
&quot;target&quot; list could have multiple keys and thus =
multiple<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>leafref-leafs be required to identify a =
specific list =
entry.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Thus it seems to =
me that your use case is not a reasonable =
basis<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote=
><pre>for a<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>new protocol =
operation. My XPath foo isn't very good either, but =
I<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><pr=
e>do<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>believe Robert's =
suggestion of using an XPath filter could be a =
way<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>forward. I *think* the filter expression would =
be something =
along<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote=
><pre>the<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>lines =
of<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
/te/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo'] =
|<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote><=
/blockquote></blockquote><pre>/te/explicit-paths/explicit-path[name=3D/te=
/tunnels/tunnel[name=3D'foo']/pat<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>hs/path/explicit-p=
ath]<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pr=
e><pre>--Per<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>On =
2017-10-09 15:42, Xufeng Liu wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>Hi =
Per,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>*From:* Igor Bryskin [<a =
href=3D"mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com">mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com</a=
>]<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>*Sent:* Sunday, October 8, 2017 7:04 =
PM<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>*To:* Igor Bryskin <a =
href=3D"mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com">&lt;Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com&gt;</=
a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:per@tail-f.com">per@tail-f.com</a>;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><=
a =
href=3D"mailto:*xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com">*xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com</a>=
<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>*Cc:* <a =
href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org">netconf@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org">netmod@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=
*Subject:* Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information =
Pointed<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquo=
te></blockquote><pre>by<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>*leafref<o:p></o:p></=
pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Hi =
Joel,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Thanks, I think I =
didnt explain our problem =
correctly.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>In our case =
we have a leafref pointing to a te tunnel name, =
which<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>happens to be a key to lookup the (axilary) =
tunnel.=C2=A0 We need a =
way<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><=
/blockquote><pre>to<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>include the entire =
tunnel body (not just a name) into the =
get<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>response. This is to optimize the number of =
iterations between the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>client and the server. As =
Xufeng put it something similar to =
SQL<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><=
/blockquote><pre>join,<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pr=
e><pre>Igor<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>*From:*Igor =
Bryskin<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>*To:*per@tail-f.=
com,<a =
href=3D"mailto:xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com">xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com</a>,<=
o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>*Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,<a=
 =
href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org">netmod@ietf.org</a>,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>*Date:*2017-10-08 =
17:36:47<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>*Subject:*Re: =
[Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed =
by<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>*leafref<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Hi =
Per,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>In a nutshell we =
would lika for a netconf client to have a way =
to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>instruct the server on whether in response to =
the get request the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>server needs to provide the =
entire body of a datastore =
node<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>=
</blockquote><pre>pointed<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>to by a leafref or =
just a pointer to said node, so that the =
node's<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>body could be retrieved by a subsequent =
separate request. This is<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>requested by implementors =
who want to optimise rhe number of<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>interactions =
between a client and its =
server.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Cheers,<o:p></o:=
p></pre><pre>Igor<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>*From:=
*Per =
Hedeland<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>*To:*Xufeng =
Liu,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>*Cc:*netconf@ietf.o=
rg,'NetMod =
WG',<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>*Date:*2017-10-08 =
14:01:27<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>*Subject:*Re: =
[Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed =
by<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>*leafref<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>On =
2017-10-06 23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>During the design =
team discussion for TE and MPLS YANG =
modeling,<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockq=
uote></blockquote></blockquote><pre>we<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>have received a =
request from implementers: How to minimize =
the<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><=
/blockquote></blockquote><pre>number<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>of NETCONF/RESTCONF =
RPCs to improve operation efficiency?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Especially =
for the case when the operator or client =
software<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockqu=
ote></blockquote></blockquote><pre>needs to<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>retrieve the object =
contents pointed by a =
leafref.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>For example, =
given the following simplified TE tunnel =
model,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>+--rw =
te<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--rw =
explicit-paths<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 +--rw explicit-path* =
[name]<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +--rw =
name=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
string<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +--rw =
explicit-route-object* =
[index]<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
|=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +--rw =
index=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
uint32<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
|=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +--rw =
explicit-route-usage?=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
identityref<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +--rw =
tunnels<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 +--rw tunnel* =
[name]<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 +--rw =
name=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
string<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 +--rw =
paths<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 +--rw path* =
[name]<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>|=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =
|=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +--rw explicit-path?=C2=A0 =
-&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>|=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
../../../../../explicit-paths/explicit-path/name<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>when the client tries to retrieve a tunnels =
information based =
on<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></=
blockquote></blockquote><pre>the<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>tunnel name, the =
&#28;get operation returns a list of =
leafrefs<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockqu=
ote></blockquote></blockquote><pre>pointing<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>to the paths of the =
tunnel.<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre>Sorry, I'm afraid I don't =
follow. Can you explain exactly =
what<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>=
</blockquote><pre>your<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>&quot;get&quot; =
request is (protocol and payload), and where the &quot;list =
of<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>leafref's&quot; (whatever that may be) occurs in =
the reply?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>*/[Xufeng] =
The &#28;get operation is the NETCONF/RESTCON =
&lt;get&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></bloc=
kquote></blockquote><pre>protocol<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>*operation, or the =
&lt;get-data&gt; operation described in<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>*<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01">https://t=
ools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01</a> and =
the<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><=
/blockquote><pre>GET<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>*operations<o:p></o:p=
></pre><pre>on {+restconf}/ds/&lt;datastore&gt; described =
in<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00./=
*">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00./*</a>=
<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>*/ =
/*<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>*/We have a list of =
leafref values because in this example =
model,<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquot=
e></blockquote><pre>each<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>*tunnel contains a =
list of paths, each of them contains a =
leafref.<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockqu=
ote></blockquote><pre>The<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>*&#28;get returns a =
value for each instance of such a leafref,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>which =
(as a string value) will be used as a constraint =
(foreign<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockqu=
ote></blockquote><pre>key)<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>to retrieve the =
instance of an explicit-path in the model =
above./*<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>JFYI, in case there is some =
fundamental misunderstanding here: =
a<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></b=
lockquote><pre>leaf<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>of<o:p></o:p></pre><p=
re>type leafref has a single value - *one* of those that satisfy =
the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>leafref<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>constraint, in =
case there are multiple =
&quot;candidates&quot;.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>=
--Per<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>The client needs to =
issue at<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>least one more &#28;get operation to =
retrieve the path =
information<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></bloc=
kquote></blockquote></blockquote><pre>about<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>the given tunnel. =
The request is to combine these two =
operations<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></block=
quote></blockquote></blockquote><pre>into<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>one.<o:p></o:p></pre>=
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>In the RDBMS SQL world, &#28;join can =
be used when SQL &#28;select is<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>performed, but =
NETCONF/YANG currently does not have =
this<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>=
</blockquote></blockquote><pre>capability.<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pr=
e><pre>Wed like to ask whether such a request is considered =
reasonable.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>If the =
request is reasonable, the next question is how =
to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>proceed. This seems to be a protocol issue =
rather than =
YANG<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>=
</blockquote></blockquote><pre>modeling<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>issue. Is it =
acceptable to add a new operation to achieve such =
a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&lt;get-data&gt; operation with expanded =
leafrefs?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Comments and =
suggestions are =
appreciated.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Thanks,<o:p=
></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>- =
Xufeng<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>__________________________________=
_____________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>netmod mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org">netmod@ietf.org</a> <a =
href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org">&lt;mailto:netmod@ietf.org&gt;</a><o:p></=
o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod">https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/netmod</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre=
></blockquote><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></=
o:p></pre><pre>Netconf mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</a> <a =
href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">&lt;mailto:Netconf@ietf.org&gt;</a><o:p>=
</o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p=
re></blockquote><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p>=
</o:p></pre><pre>Netconf mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pr=
e><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p=
re></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><pre>__________________________=
_____________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>netmod mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org">netmod@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=
<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod">https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/netmod</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre></blockquote><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p=
re><pre>-----------------------------------------------------------------=
-------<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>--------<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>_____________________=
__________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>netmod mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org">netmod@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=
<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod">https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/netmod</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre=
></blockquote><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_06FA_01D3429F.4C5E0620--


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From: "Ambika Prasad Tripathy Tripathy (ambtripa)" <ambtripa@cisco.com>
To: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
CC: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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From nobody Wed Oct 11 15:17:20 2017
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : NETCONF Model for NMDA
        Authors         : Martin Bjorklund
                          Juergen Schoenwaelder
                          Phil Shafer
                          Kent Watsen
                          Robert Wilton
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf-00.txt
	Pages           : 13
	Date            : 2017-10-11

Abstract:
   The "Network Management Datastore Architecture" (NMDA) improves on
   NETCONF by adding new features to give more accurate handling of
   configuration and operational data.  These include ability to inspect
   the current operational values of configuration data, allowing
   clients to use identical paths for retrieving the configured values
   and the operational values.  These new features require additional
   operations in network management applications such as NETCONF.  This
   draft details those new operations.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf-00
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf-00


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/SI8RWe_yNu4YOTzqGpPhY7cLK7I>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] YANG Patch 'remove' operation
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Robert Wilton writes:
>When I looked at this again, it looks like "replace" also shouldn't fail 
>on non existence.

"replace" was meant to allow non-existance.  It means "replace the
item completely", but should effectively ignored if the item does
not already exist.  This is the model we've used in JUNOS.

Thanks,
 Phil


From nobody Wed Oct 11 23:43:11 2017
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] YANG Patch 'remove' operation
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Phil Shafer <phil@juniper.net> wrote:
> Robert Wilton writes:
> >When I looked at this again, it looks like "replace" also shouldn't fail 
> >on non existence.
> 
> "replace" was meant to allow non-existance.  It means "replace the
> item completely", but should effectively ignored if the item does
> not already exist.

No, this is not how it is specified.  Both RFC 6020 and 7950 have this:

      If the operation is "merge" or "replace", the node is created if
      it does not exist.


/martin


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From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC8072 (5131)
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Dear all,

I approved this errata.

Regards, B.
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 10:48 AM, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net 
> <mailto:kwatsen@juniper.net>> wrote:
>
>     That NETCONF section allows "merge" and "replace" on nodes that
>     don't exist (they are just created). Also a "remove" on a data
>     node that doesn't exist doesn't return any error.Â  It is just a
>     silent no-op.
>
>     So, it seems that the YANG Patch semantics are not the same as for
>     NETCONF, which seems to conflict with the previous paragraph
>     quoted above.
>
>     <KENT> good point.Â  I forgot that merge/replace are unintuitive
>     that way.Â  Our software calculates the right operation to use
>     every time.
>
> But merge and replace do not cause errors if the target is missing, 
> just like NETCONF.
> The only edit operations that require the target to exist (or an error 
> is returned)
> are delete and move (as specified in the errata)
>
>
> Andy
>


--------------0C2C62EE8DA1D1CCED697BDC
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<html>
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    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
  </head>
  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear all,<br>
      <br>
      I approved this errata.<br>
      <br>
      Regards, B.<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABCOCHR=JOxn73eaJdRzQw0sQuhkNH5ZqYEeoJP8CdAcszV_yg@mail.gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
      <div dir="ltr"><br>
        <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
          <div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 10:48 AM,
            Kent Watsen <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a
                href="mailto:kwatsen@juniper.net" target="_blank"
                moz-do-not-send="true">kwatsen@juniper.net</a>&gt;</span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <div bgcolor="white" link="blue" vlink="purple"
                lang="EN-US">
                <div class="m_7826102674800123468WordSection1">
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Calibri">Â </span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Calibri">Â </span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">That
                    NETCONF section allows "merge" and "replace" on
                    nodes that don't exist (they are just created).Â 
                    Also a "remove" on a data node that doesn't exist
                    doesn't return any error.Â  It is just a silent
                    no-op.<br>
                    <br>
                    So, it seems that the YANG Patch semantics are not
                    the same as for NETCONF, which seems to conflict
                    with the previous paragraph quoted above.<br>
                    <br>
                    &lt;KENT&gt; good point.Â  I forgot that
                    merge/replace are unintuitive that way.Â  Our
                    software calculates the right operation to use every
                    time.</p>
                </div>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
          </div>
          But merge and replace do not cause errors if the target is
          missing, just like NETCONF.</div>
        <div class="gmail_extra">The only edit operations that require
          the target to exist (or an error is returned)</div>
        <div class="gmail_extra">are delete and move (as specified in
          the errata)</div>
        <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_extra">Andy</div>
        <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------0C2C62EE8DA1D1CCED697BDC--


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Subject: [Netconf] [Errata Verified] RFC8072 (5131)
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The following errata report has been verified for RFC8072,
"YANG Patch Media Type". 

--------------------------------------
You may review the report below and at:
http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5131

--------------------------------------
Status: Verified
Type: Technical

Reported by: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
Date Reported: 2017-09-28
Verified by: Benoit Claise (IESG)

Section: 2.2

Original Text
-------------
Regarding section 2.2 of RFC 8072, the third paragraph states:


                                       ... If the edit does not identify
    any existing resource instance and the operation for the edit is not
    "create", then the request MUST NOT be processed and a "404 Not
    Found" error response MUST be sent by the server.

Corrected Text
--------------
                                      ... If the edit does not identify
   any existing resource instance and the operation for the edit is
   "delete" or "move" then the request MUST NOT be processed and a
   "404 Not Found" error response MUST be sent by the server.

Notes
-----
As per the second paragraph of section 2.2 of RFC 8072, the operations are expected to mirror the semantics of the "operation" attribute described in Section 7.2 of [RFC6241].

The spec also doesn't specify what happens if it is a "create" operation and the resource already exists.  It should probably also state that "400 Bad Request" is returned.

--------------------------------------
RFC8072 (draft-ietf-netconf-yang-patch-14)
--------------------------------------
Title               : YANG Patch Media Type
Publication Date    : February 2017
Author(s)           : A. Bierman, M. Bjorklund, K. Watsen
Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
Source              : Network Configuration
Area                : Operations and Management
Stream              : IETF
Verifying Party     : IESG


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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
CC: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>, Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>, "mbj@tail-f.com" <mbj@tail-f.com>, "warren@kumari.net" <warren@kumari.net>, "mjethanandani@gmail.com" <mjethanandani@gmail.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC8072 (5131)
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References: <20170928105016.B2A88B81896@rfc-editor.org> <b6c0cf18-eba4-f4e0-4802-bfe524095b57@cisco.com> <F149BE7A-07C8-42CE-92AF-4355E6B409E0@juniper.net> <c5cd4554-34f5-31a3-e16c-8c858b5e1616@cisco.com> <0C4C27BF-6243-4291-ACE8-4F3B4115C9D7@juniper.net> <CABCOCHR=JOxn73eaJdRzQw0sQuhkNH5ZqYEeoJP8CdAcszV_yg@mail.gmail.com>, <95298db0-5876-5180-7ef5-188a56a2cc1a@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC8072 (5131)
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References: <20170928105016.B2A88B81896@rfc-editor.org> <b6c0cf18-eba4-f4e0-4802-bfe524095b57@cisco.com> <F149BE7A-07C8-42CE-92AF-4355E6B409E0@juniper.net> <c5cd4554-34f5-31a3-e16c-8c858b5e1616@cisco.com> <0C4C27BF-6243-4291-ACE8-4F3B4115C9D7@juniper.net> <CABCOCHR=JOxn73eaJdRzQw0sQuhkNH5ZqYEeoJP8CdAcszV_yg@mail.gmail.com> <95298db0-5876-5180-7ef5-188a56a2cc1a@cisco.com> <3A7AB6D3-1231-43D1-B2DA-1FF88AF81C25@juniper.net>
From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2017 06:08:10 -0700
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To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
Cc: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>,  "mbj@tail-f.com" <mbj@tail-f.com>, "warren@kumari.net" <warren@kumari.net>,  "mjethanandani@gmail.com" <mjethanandani@gmail.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC8072 (5131)
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On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 5:49 AM, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:

>
> The Errata itself has an error.  It should be =E2=80=9Cremove=E2=80=9D (n=
ot =E2=80=9Cmove=E2=80=9D).
>
>
> Corrected Text
> --------------
>                                        ... If the edit does not identify
>     any existing resource instance and the operation for the edit is
>     "delete" or "move" then the request MUST NOT be processed and a
>     "404 Not Found" error response MUST be sent by the server.
>


No -- "delete" and "move" are errors if the resource instance is missing.
The "remove" operation is like NETCONF "remove".  It is is not an error
if "remove" fails (that's why it exists, separate from "delete")


Andy



> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 12, 2017, at 3:57 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> I approved this errata.
>
> Regards, B.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 10:48 AM, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote=
:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> That NETCONF section allows "merge" and "replace" on nodes that don't
>> exist (they are just created).  Also a "remove" on a data node that does=
n't
>> exist doesn't return any error.  It is just a silent no-op.
>>
>> So, it seems that the YANG Patch semantics are not the same as for
>> NETCONF, which seems to conflict with the previous paragraph quoted abov=
e.
>>
>> <KENT> good point.  I forgot that merge/replace are unintuitive that
>> way.  Our software calculates the right operation to use every time.
>>
> But merge and replace do not cause errors if the target is missing, just
> like NETCONF.
> The only edit operations that require the target to exist (or an error is
> returned)
> are delete and move (as specified in the errata)
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>

--089e082f63e07a542f055b593b67
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 5:49 AM, Kent Watsen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:kwatsen@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">kwatsen@juniper.net</a=
>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">



<div dir=3D"auto">
<div><br>
</div>
The Errata itself has an error.=C2=A0 It should be =E2=80=9Cremove=E2=80=9D=
 (not =E2=80=9Cmove=E2=80=9D).=C2=A0<br>
<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">&gt;=
 Corrected Text</span><br style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.8px">&gt; --------------</span><br style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:12.8px">&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ... If the edit does not identify</span><br style=3D"f=
ont-size:12.8px"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a=
ny existing resource instance and the operation for the edit is</span><br s=
tyle=3D"font-size:12.8px"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&quot;delete&quot; or &quot;move&quot; then the request MUST NOT =
be processed and a</span><br style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.8px">&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;404 Not Found&quot; error respo=
nse MUST be sent by the server.</span><br style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><div><=
span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">&gt;</span></div><div><br></div><div><br></=
div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"></span>No -- &quot;delete&quot; a=
nd &quot;move&quot; are errors if the resource instance is missing.</div><d=
iv>The &quot;remove&quot; operation is like NETCONF &quot;remove&quot;.=C2=
=A0 It is is not an error</div><div>if &quot;remove&quot; fails (that&#39;s=
 why it exists, separate from &quot;delete&quot;)</div><div><br></div><div>=
<br></div><div>Andy</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">
<div id=3D"gmail-m_-1283121577103401316AppleMailSignature">Sent from my iPh=
one</div>
<div><br>
On Oct 12, 2017, at 3:57 AM, Benoit Claise &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bclaise@ci=
sco.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-1283121577103401316moz-cite-prefix">Dear all,<br>
<br>
I approved this errata.<br>
<br>
Regards, B.<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 10:48 AM, Kent Watsen <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kwatsen@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">kwatsen@junipe=
r.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-1283121577103401316m_7826102674800123468WordSection1=
">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri">=C2=A0</span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri">=C2=A0</span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">That NETCONF section al=
lows &quot;merge&quot; and &quot;replace&quot; on nodes that don&#39;t exis=
t (they are just created).=C2=A0 Also a &quot;remove&quot; on a data node t=
hat doesn&#39;t exist doesn&#39;t return any error.=C2=A0 It is just a sile=
nt no-op.<br>
<br>
So, it seems that the YANG Patch semantics are not the same as for NETCONF,=
 which seems to conflict with the previous paragraph quoted above.<br>
<br>
&lt;KENT&gt; good point.=C2=A0 I forgot that merge/replace are unintuitive =
that way.=C2=A0 Our software calculates the right operation to use every ti=
me.</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
But merge and replace do not cause errors if the target is missing, just li=
ke NETCONF.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">The only edit operations that require the target=
 to exist (or an error is returned)</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">are delete and move (as specified in the errata)=
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">Andy</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--089e082f63e07a542f055b593b67--


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To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
Cc: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>, "mbj@tail-f.com" <mbj@tail-f.com>, "warren@kumari.net" <warren@kumari.net>, "mjethanandani@gmail.com" <mjethanandani@gmail.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
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From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2017 14:12:21 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC8072 (5131)
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Hi Kent,

No, I think that "move" is right.

You don't want to fail a "remove" operation because the node doesn't 
exist (otherwise it would be exactly the same as a NETCONF "delete" 
operation).Â  But you do want to fail a "move" operation that attempts to 
move a data node that doesn't exist.

Thanks,
Rob


On 12/10/2017 13:49, Kent Watsen wrote:
>
> The Errata itself has an error. Â It should be â€œremoveâ€ (not â€œmoveâ€).
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 12, 2017, at 3:57 AM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com 
> <mailto:bclaise@cisco.com>> wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I approved this errata.
>>
>> Regards, B.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 10:48 AM, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net 
>>> <mailto:kwatsen@juniper.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     That NETCONF section allows "merge" and "replace" on nodes that
>>>     don't exist (they are just created). Also a "remove" on a data
>>>     node that doesn't exist doesn't return any error.Â  It is just a
>>>     silent no-op.
>>>
>>>     So, it seems that the YANG Patch semantics are not the same as
>>>     for NETCONF, which seems to conflict with the previous paragraph
>>>     quoted above.
>>>
>>>     <KENT> good point.Â  I forgot that merge/replace are unintuitive
>>>     that way.Â  Our software calculates the right operation to use
>>>     every time.
>>>
>>> But merge and replace do not cause errors if the target is missing, 
>>> just like NETCONF.
>>> The only edit operations that require the target to exist (or an 
>>> error is returned)
>>> are delete and move (as specified in the errata)
>>>
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>


--------------6652AFD66BEA0152AD424904
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
  </head>
  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    <p>Hi Kent,</p>
    <p>No, I think that "move" is right.</p>
    <p>You don't want to fail a "remove" operation because the node
      doesn't exist (otherwise it would be exactly the same as a NETCONF
      "delete" operation).Â  But you do want to fail a "move" operation
      that attempts to move a data node that doesn't exist.<br>
    </p>
    Thanks,<br>
    Rob<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/10/2017 13:49, Kent Watsen wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:3A7AB6D3-1231-43D1-B2DA-1FF88AF81C25@juniper.net">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
      <div><br>
      </div>
      The Errata itself has an error. Â It should be â€œremoveâ€ (not
      â€œmoveâ€).Â <br>
      <br>
      <div id="AppleMailSignature">Sent from my iPhone</div>
      <div><br>
        On Oct 12, 2017, at 3:57 AM, Benoit Claise &lt;<a
          href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" moz-do-not-send="true">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;
        wrote:<br>
        <br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <div>
          <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear all,<br>
            <br>
            I approved this errata.<br>
            <br>
            Regards, B.<br>
          </div>
          <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABCOCHR=JOxn73eaJdRzQw0sQuhkNH5ZqYEeoJP8CdAcszV_yg@mail.gmail.com">
            <div dir="ltr"><br>
              <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                <div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 10:48
                  AM, Kent Watsen <span dir="ltr">
                    &lt;<a href="mailto:kwatsen@juniper.net"
                      target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">kwatsen@juniper.net</a>&gt;</span>
                  wrote:<br>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
                    .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                    <div bgcolor="white" link="blue" vlink="purple"
                      lang="EN-US">
                      <div class="m_7826102674800123468WordSection1">
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                            style="font-family:Calibri">Â </span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                            style="font-family:Calibri">Â </span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">That NETCONF
                          section allows "merge" and "replace" on nodes
                          that don't exist (they are just created).Â 
                          Also a "remove" on a data node that doesn't
                          exist doesn't return any error.Â  It is just a
                          silent no-op.<br>
                          <br>
                          So, it seems that the YANG Patch semantics are
                          not the same as for NETCONF, which seems to
                          conflict with the previous paragraph quoted
                          above.<br>
                          <br>
                          &lt;KENT&gt; good point.Â  I forgot that
                          merge/replace are unintuitive that way.Â  Our
                          software calculates the right operation to use
                          every time.</p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                </div>
                But merge and replace do not cause errors if the target
                is missing, just like NETCONF.</div>
              <div class="gmail_extra">The only edit operations that
                require the target to exist (or an error is returned)</div>
              <div class="gmail_extra">are delete and move (as specified
                in the errata)</div>
              <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
              </div>
              <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
              </div>
              <div class="gmail_extra">Andy</div>
              <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <br>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------6652AFD66BEA0152AD424904--


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From: "Einar Nilsen-Nygaard (einarnn)" <einarnn@cisco.com>
To: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2017 14:12:22 +0000
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To: Xufeng Liu <xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com>, "'t.petch'" <ietfc@btconnect.com>,  "'Igor Bryskin'" <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>, netconf@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org
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From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
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Hi Xufeng,

Just a note for clarity: My combined proposal using subtree filtering 
and XPath isn't a valid NETCONF filter today, I was suggesting it as a 
potential future enhancement to NETCONF.Â  My reading of the NETCONF 
draft is that an XPath filter can only be specified at the top level.

Thanks,
Rob


On 11/10/2017 19:43, Xufeng Liu wrote:
>
> Hi Rob,
>
> Thanks for the proposal. I think that the subtree does help, to a 
> certain extend. The approach is worth mentioning to the implementers, 
> though the remaining XPath is still complicated and could be worse for 
> a more complex model. The good thing about the approach is that this 
> is what we already have today. I agree with Tom on that NETCONF should 
> have a better solution, but that may require protocol changes and need 
> to cover more generic cases as Per described.
>
> Thanks,
>
> - Xufeng
>
> *From:*Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Robert 
> Wilton
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 11, 2017 6:49 AM
> *To:* t.petch <ietfc@btconnect.com>; Igor Bryskin 
> <Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>; netconf@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by 
> leafref
>
> I've also been thinking about this problem a bit more :-)
>
> The XPath solution works, but the expression isn't particularly nice 
> to write, and I suspect that implementations may struggle to implement 
> it efficiently (if they support XPath filtering at all).
>
> A nicer solution here might be to allow the XPath filters to be 
> combined with a subtree filter along the lines of a more advanced type 
> of "Attribute Match Expression" sec 6.2.2 of rfc6241.
>
> E.g. rather than this XPath filter:
>
> /te:te/te:tunnels/te:tunnel[te:name='foo'] |
> /te:te/te:connections/te:connection[te:name=/te:te/te:tunnels/te:tunnel[te:name='foo']/te:connections/te:connection/te:name]
>
> Here is example of what a subtree filter combined with an XPath filter 
> could potentially look like (which of course isn't valid NETCONF/YANG 
> today):
>
> <filter type="subtree-xpath">
>  Â  <te:te xmlns:te="...">
>  Â Â Â  <te:tunnels te:name="foo"/>
>  Â Â Â  <te:connections>
>  Â Â Â Â Â  <filter type="xpath" select="te:name = ../te:tunnels/te:tunnel[te:name='foo']/te:connections/te:connection/te:name)"/>
>  Â Â Â  </te:connections>
>  Â  </te:te>
> </filter>
>
>
> Any opinions on whether this would be beneficial or is this just 
> reinventing the wheel?
>
> Thanks,
> Rob
>
> On 11/10/2017 10:41, t.petch wrote:
>
>     Igor
>
>     Thinking laterally, this is a problem that DNS encountered a few decades
>
>     ago and solved, by allowing the server to include additional information
>
>     not specifically requested that the server can see is going to be needed
>
>     for the next step, so if the client asks only about a CNAME, then the
>
>     server can provide the relevant IP address as well.
>
>     I suspect that the current rules for Netconf do not allow the server to
>
>     send anything not explicitly requested, which is a shame (IMO).
>
>     The DNS approach works very well, in fact I do not think we would
>
>     survive without it.
>
>     Tom Petch
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>
>     From: "Igor Bryskin"<Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com> <mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>
>
>     Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 2:35 PM
>
>     Hi Rob,
>
>     This helps a lot. What you wrote will work.
>
>     The only difference is that if we would have the "joimt with" clause as
>
>     we proposed, the server would be able to tailor the te-tunnel
>
>     presentation to the client's requirements, e.g. substituting the
>
>     connection pointers with connection bodies, while, according to your
>
>     suggestion, the server will provide the te-tunnel body as is, and then
>
>     augment it with the cobbection information, thus, leaving
>
>     for the client to "shuffle " the received data. But I do agree, this
>
>     would be a minor inconvinience for the client, the important thing is
>
>     that the client will get all the data in one piece.
>
>     Thanks a lot,
>
>     Igor
>
>     c
>
>     From:Robert Wilton
>
>     To:Igor Bryskin,
>
>     Cc:Per Hedeland,netmod@ietf.org,netconf@ietf.org
>     <mailto:netmod@ietf.org,netconf@ietf.org>,
>
>     Date:2017-10-10 06:41:04
>
>     Subject:Re: [netmod] [Netconf] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref
>
>     Hi Igor,
>
>     On 09/10/2017 23:11, Igor Bryskin wrote:
>
>         Hi Per,
>
>         This is a good news, but, please, help us out.
>
>         Consider, we have a node - "te-tunnel" - which among other attributes
>
>     has two key leafref lists:
>
>         1) each member of the 1st list points to a "connection" supporting the
>
>     te-tunnel. All connections supporting all te-tunnels are stored in a
>
>     single list of connections.
>
>         2) each member of the 2nd list points to a supporting "te-tunnel" -
>
>     the te-tunnel in question depends on. All te=tunnels including the
>
>     te-tunnel in question, are stored in a single list of te-tunnels.
>
>         The question: how the client can retrieve via a single request all
>
>     attributes of the te-tunnel in question along with all parameters of all
>
>     connections supporting the te-tunnel, but with just pointers to
>
>     supporting te-tunnels (so that the interested client can use the
>
>     pointers to retrieve full data via subsequent separate requests) ?
>
>     I think that it might be something like this (for tunnel name foo):
>
>      Â Â  /te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo'] |
>
>     /te/connections/connection[name=/te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo']/connectio
>
>     ns/connection/name]
>
>     E.g. in English, this should equate to something like:
>
>     Return all information for tunnel foo AND ALSO
>
>     Return all information for all connections where the connection name
>
>     matches one of the connections listed in tunnel foo.
>
>         Likewise, how the client can ask for full data of the te-tunnel and
>
>     all supporting te-tunnels and just pointers for supporting connections?
>
>     If my xpath above is right, then this would be something roughly like
>
>     this:
>
>      Â Â  /te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo'] |
>
>     /te/tunnels/tunnel[name=/te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo']/supporting-tunnel
>
>     s/supporting-tunnel/name]
>
>     I'm an XPath novice, so the expressions might be wrong.
>
>     https://www.freeformatter.com/xpath-tester.html  might be useful. E.g. if
>
>     you can construct a simple XML instance tree of your data, you could
>
>     validate whether the XPath expression works.
>
>     I hope that this is of some help,
>
>     Rob
>
>         I really appreciate your help,
>
>         Igor
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>
>         From: Per Hedeland [mailto:per@tail-f.com]
>
>         Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 5:21 PM
>
>         To: Igor Bryskin
>
>         Cc:mbj@tail-f.com <mailto:mbj@tail-f.com>;xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com>;netconf@ietf.org <mailto:netconf@ietf.org>;
>
>     netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
>
>         Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>
>     leafref
>
>         Just to be clear: what we're suggesting is that you can use the
>
>         already-existing standard NETCONF XPath capability to achieve the
>
>     desired
>
>         result - seehttps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6241#section-8.9
>
>         --Per
>
>         On 2017-10-09 21:52, Igor Bryskin wrote:
>
>             I agree. For example, a leafref may point not to a singls entity, but
>
>     to a list of entities, and the client might want to expand all of them
>
>     into the joint get response.
>
>             Igor
>
>             *From:*Per Hedeland
>
>             *To:*Martin Bjorklund,
>
>             *Cc:*Igor
>
>     Bryskin,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org
>     <mailto:xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org>,
>
>             *Date:*2017-10-09 15:12:22
>
>             *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>
>     leafref
>
>             On 2017-10-09 19:13, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
>
>                 Igor Bryskin<Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com> <mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>  wrote:
>
>                     Hi Per,
>
>                     Basically, what we need is a way for a client to request something
>
>                     like this:
>
>                     get <XPath> joint with <XPath1, XPath2, ..., XPathn>
>
>                 ... which is what Per's expression does!Â  Note that "|" in XPath
>
>     means
>
>                 "union".
>
>                 But as Per explained, it only works in some cases (when the leafref
>
>                 acts a "single pointer").
>
>             Well, that particular expression works only in that case - but since
>
>     it
>
>             is effectively the client that (perhaps based on the data model)
>
>     decides
>
>             what the leafref-leafs "mean" (in this case the single key of a
>
>     single
>
>             list), other cases can be handled the same way. E.g. multiple
>
>             leafref-to-key leafs that together give the keys of a multi-key list
>
>             just amounts to a slightly hairier XPath filter...
>
>             --Per
>
>                     with a server interpreting the request as follows:
>
>                     if a node pointed by XPath contains a pointer (e.g. key leafref)
>
>                     matching one of the XPath from the "joint with" list, then the
>
>     server
>
>                     must provide the entire body of the node pointed by the pointer,
>
>                     otherwise, just the pointer (as it happens today, that is, when no
>
>                     "joint with" list specified).
>
>                     We think that this would allow for the client to optimize the
>
>     number
>
>                     of request-response iterations depending on application/use case.
>
>                     Regards,
>
>                     Igor
>
>                 /martin
>
>                     -----Original Message-----
>
>                     From: Per Hedeland [mailto:per@tail-f.com]
>
>                     Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 12:06 PM
>
>                     To: Xufeng Liu
>
>                     Cc: Igor Bryskin;netconf@ietf.org <mailto:netconf@ietf.org>;netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
>
>                     Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>
>                     leafref
>
>                     I understand your use case, but a leaf of type leafref does not in
>
>                     general identify a single node in the data tree - the leafref path
>
>                     could
>
>                     be for a non-key leaf, and/or the path could traverse list nodes,
>
>                     and/or
>
>                     the "target" list could have multiple keys and thus multiple
>
>                     leafref-leafs be required to identify a specific list entry.
>
>                     Thus it seems to me that your use case is not a reasonable basis
>
>     for a
>
>                     new protocol operation. My XPath foo isn't very good either, but I
>
>     do
>
>                     believe Robert's suggestion of using an XPath filter could be a way
>
>                     forward. I *think* the filter expression would be something along
>
>     the
>
>                     lines of
>
>                      Â Â  /te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo'] |
>
>     /te/explicit-paths/explicit-path[name=/te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo']/pat
>
>     hs/path/explicit-path]
>
>                     --Per
>
>                     On 2017-10-09 15:42, Xufeng Liu wrote:
>
>                         Hi Per,
>
>                         *From:* Igor Bryskin [mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com]
>
>                         *Sent:* Sunday, October 8, 2017 7:04 PM
>
>                         *To:* Igor Bryskin<Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>
>                         <mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com>;per@tail-f.com <mailto:per@tail-f.com>;
>
>                         *xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:*xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com>
>
>                         *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org <mailto:netconf@ietf.org>;netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
>
>                         *Subject:* Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed
>
>     by
>
>                         *leafref
>
>                         Hi Joel,
>
>                         Thanks, I think I didnt explain our problem correctly.
>
>                         In our case we have a leafref pointing to a te tunnel name, which
>
>                         happens to be a key to lookup the (axilary) tunnel.Â  We need a way
>
>     to
>
>                         include the entire tunnel body (not just a name) into the get
>
>                         response. This is to optimize the number of iterations between the
>
>                         client and the server. As Xufeng put it something similar to SQL
>
>     join,
>
>                         Igor
>
>                         *From:*Igor Bryskin
>
>                         *To:*per@tail-f.com,xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com
>                         <mailto:xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com>,
>
>                         *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>,
>
>                         *Date:*2017-10-08 17:36:47
>
>                         *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>
>                         *leafref
>
>                         Hi Per,
>
>                         In a nutshell we would lika for a netconf client to have a way to
>
>                         instruct the server on whether in response to the get request the
>
>                         server needs to provide the entire body of a datastore node
>
>     pointed
>
>                         to by a leafref or just a pointer to said node, so that the node's
>
>                         body could be retrieved by a subsequent separate request. This is
>
>                         requested by implementors who want to optimise rhe number of
>
>                         interactions between a client and its server.
>
>                         Cheers,
>
>                         Igor
>
>                         *From:*Per Hedeland
>
>                         *To:*Xufeng Liu,
>
>                         *Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,'NetMod WG',
>
>                         *Date:*2017-10-08 14:01:27
>
>                         *Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by
>
>                         *leafref
>
>                         On 2017-10-06 23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:
>
>                             During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS YANG modeling,
>
>     we
>
>                             have received a request from implementers: How to minimize the
>
>     number
>
>                             of NETCONF/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation efficiency?
>
>                             Especially for the case when the operator or client software
>
>     needs to
>
>                             retrieve the object contents pointed by a leafref.
>
>                             For example, given the following simplified TE tunnel model,
>
>                             +--rw te
>
>                              Â Â Â  Â Â Â +--rw explicit-paths
>
>                              Â Â Â Â Â Â  |Â  +--rw explicit-path* [name]
>
>                              Â Â Â Â Â Â  |Â Â Â Â  +--rw nameÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  string
>
>                              Â Â Â Â Â Â  |Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  +--rw explicit-route-object* [index]
>
>                              Â Â Â Â Â Â  |Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  +--rw indexÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  uint32
>
>                              Â Â Â Â Â Â  |Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  +--rw explicit-route-usage?Â Â  identityref
>
>                              Â Â Â Â Â Â  +--rw tunnels
>
>                              Â Â Â Â Â Â  |Â  +--rw tunnel* [name]
>
>                              Â Â Â Â Â Â  |Â  |Â  +--rw nameÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  string
>
>                              Â Â Â Â Â Â  |Â  |Â  +--rw paths
>
>                              Â Â Â Â Â Â  |Â  |Â  |Â  +--rw path* [name]
>
>                             |Â  |Â  |Â Â Â Â  +--rw explicit-path?Â  ->
>
>                             |Â  |Â  |Â Â Â Â  ../../../../../explicit-paths/explicit-path/name
>
>                             when the client tries to retrieve a tunnels information based on
>
>     the
>
>                             tunnel name, the get operation returns a list of leafrefs
>
>     pointing
>
>                             to the paths of the tunnel.
>
>                         Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you explain exactly what
>
>     your
>
>                         "get" request is (protocol and payload), and where the "list of
>
>                         leafref's" (whatever that may be) occurs in the reply?
>
>                         */[Xufeng] The get operation is the NETCONF/RESTCON <get>
>
>     protocol
>
>                         *operation, or the <get-data> operation described in
>
>                         *https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01  and the
>
>     GET
>
>                         *operations
>
>                         on {+restconf}/ds/<datastore> described in
>
>                         https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00./*
>
>                         */ /*
>
>                         */We have a list of leafref values because in this example model,
>
>     each
>
>                         *tunnel contains a list of paths, each of them contains a leafref.
>
>     The
>
>                         *get returns a value for each instance of such a leafref,
>
>                         which (as a string value) will be used as a constraint (foreign
>
>     key)
>
>                         to retrieve the instance of an explicit-path in the model above./*
>
>                         JFYI, in case there is some fundamental misunderstanding here: a
>
>     leaf
>
>                         of
>
>                         type leafref has a single value - *one* of those that satisfy the
>
>                         leafref
>
>                         constraint, in case there are multiple "candidates".
>
>                         --Per
>
>                             The client needs to issue at
>
>                             least one more get operation to retrieve the path information
>
>     about
>
>                             the given tunnel. The request is to combine these two operations
>
>     into
>
>                             one.
>
>                             In the RDBMS SQL world, join can be used when SQL select is
>
>                             performed, but NETCONF/YANG currently does not have this
>
>     capability.
>
>                             Wed like to ask whether such a request is considered reasonable.
>
>                             If the request is reasonable, the next question is how to
>
>                             proceed. This seems to be a protocol issue rather than YANG
>
>     modeling
>
>                             issue. Is it acceptable to add a new operation to achieve such a
>
>                             <get-data> operation with expanded leafrefs?
>
>                             Comments and suggestions are appreciated.
>
>                             Thanks,
>
>                             - Xufeng
>
>                             _______________________________________________
>
>                             netmod mailing list
>
>                             netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>  <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
>                             <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
>
>                             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>
>                         _______________________________________________
>
>                         Netconf mailing list
>
>                         Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>  <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>                         <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>
>                         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>
>                     _______________________________________________
>
>                     Netconf mailing list
>
>                     Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>
>                     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>
>         _______________________________________________
>
>         netmod mailing list
>
>         netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
>
>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>
>         .
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     --------
>
>         _______________________________________________
>
>         netmod mailing list
>
>         netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
>
>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>
>     .
>


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    <p>Hi Xufeng,</p>
    <p>Just a note for clarity: My combined proposal using subtree
      filtering and XPath isn't a valid NETCONF filter today, I was
      suggesting it as a potential future enhancement to NETCONF.Â  My
      reading of the NETCONF draft is that an XPath filter can only be
      specified at the top level.</p>
    Thanks,<br>
    Rob<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/10/2017 19:43, Xufeng Liu wrote:<br>
    </div>
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Hi Rob,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Thanks for
            the proposal. I think that the subtree does help, to a
            certain extend. The approach is worth mentioning to the
            implementers, though the remaining XPath is still
            complicated and could be worse for a more complex model. The
            good thing about the approach is that this is what we
            already have today. I agree with Tom on that NETCONF should
            have a better solution, but that may require protocol
            changes and need to cover more generic cases as Per
            described.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">- Xufeng<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p>Â </o:p></span></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
                  style="color:windowtext"> Netconf
                  [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert
                  Wilton<br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 11, 2017 6:49 AM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> t.petch <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ietfc@btconnect.com">&lt;ietfc@btconnect.com&gt;</a>; Igor
                  Bryskin <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com">&lt;Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com&gt;</a>;
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:netconf@ietf.org">netconf@ietf.org</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:netmod@ietf.org">netmod@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving
                  Information Pointed by leafref<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
          <p>I've also been thinking about this problem a bit more :-)<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p>The XPath solution works, but the expression isn't
            particularly nice to write, and I suspect that
            implementations may struggle to implement it efficiently (if
            they support XPath filtering at all).<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p>A nicer solution here might be to allow the XPath filters
            to be combined with a subtree filter along the lines of a
            more advanced type of "Attribute Match Expression" sec 6.2.2
            of rfc6241.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p>E.g. rather than this XPath filter:<o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>/te:te/te:tunnels/te:tunnel[te:name='foo'] |<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>/te:te/te:connections/te:connection[te:name=/te:te/te:tunnels/te:tunnel[te:name='foo']/te:connections/te:connection/te:name]<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
          <p>Here is example of what a subtree filter combined with an
            XPath filter could potentially look like (which of course
            isn't valid NETCONF/YANG today):<o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre style="break-before: page;font-variant-ligatures: normal;font-variant-caps: normal;orphans: 2;text-align:start;widows: 2;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;text-decoration-style: initial;text-decoration-color: initial;word-spacing:0px">&lt;filter type="subtree-xpath"&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Â  &lt;te:te xmlns:te="..."&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Â Â Â  &lt;te:tunnels te:name="foo"/&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Â Â Â  &lt;te:connections&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Â Â Â Â Â  &lt;filter type="xpath" select="te:name = ../te:tunnels/te:tunnel[te:name='foo']/te:connections/te:connection/te:name)"/&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Â Â Â  &lt;/te:connections&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Â  &lt;/te:te&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&lt;/filter&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
            Any opinions on whether this would be beneficial or is this
            just reinventing the wheel?<br>
            <br>
            Thanks,<br>
            Rob<br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">On 11/10/2017 10:41, t.petch wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <pre>Igor<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre>Thinking laterally, this is a problem that DNS encountered a few decades<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>ago and solved, by allowing the server to include additional information<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>not specifically requested that the server can see is going to be needed<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>for the next step, so if the client asks only about a CNAME, then the<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>server can provide the relevant IP address as well.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre>I suspect that the current rules for Netconf do not allow the server to<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>send anything not explicitly requested, which is a shame (IMO).<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre>The DNS approach works very well, in fact I do not think we would<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>survive without it.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre>Tom Petch<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre>----- Original Message -----<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>From: "Igor Bryskin" <a href="mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 2:35 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre>Hi Rob,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre>This helps a lot. What you wrote will work.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre>The only difference is that if we would have the "joimt with" clause as<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>we proposed, the server would be able to tailor the te-tunnel<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>presentation to the client's requirements, e.g. substituting the<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>connection pointers with connection bodies, while, according to your<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>suggestion, the server will provide the te-tunnel body as is, and then<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>augment it with the cobbection information, thus, leaving<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>for the client to "shuffle " the received data. But I do agree, this<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>would be a minor inconvinience for the client, the important thing is<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>that the client will get all the data in one piece.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre>Thanks a lot,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Igor<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre>c<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre>From:Robert Wilton<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>To:Igor Bryskin,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Cc:Per Hedeland,<a href="mailto:netmod@ietf.org,netconf@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">netmod@ietf.org,netconf@ietf.org</a>,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Date:2017-10-10 06:41:04<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Subject:Re: [netmod] [Netconf] Retrieving Information Pointed by leafref<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre>Hi Igor,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre>On 09/10/2017 23:11, Igor Bryskin wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre>Hi Per,<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
              <pre>This is a good news, but, please, help us out.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Consider, we have a node - "te-tunnel" - which among other attributes<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>has two key leafref lists:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre>1) each member of the 1st list points to a "connection" supporting the<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>te-tunnel. All connections supporting all te-tunnels are stored in a<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>single list of connections.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre>2) each member of the 2nd list points to a supporting "te-tunnel" -<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>the te-tunnel in question depends on. All te=tunnels including the<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>te-tunnel in question, are stored in a single list of te-tunnels.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
              <pre>The question: how the client can retrieve via a single request all<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>attributes of the te-tunnel in question along with all parameters of all<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>connections supporting the te-tunnel, but with just pointers to<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>supporting te-tunnels (so that the interested client can use the<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>pointers to retrieve full data via subsequent separate requests) ?<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>I think that it might be something like this (for tunnel name foo):<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre>Â Â  /te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo'] |<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre>/te/connections/connection[name=/te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo']/connectio<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>ns/connection/name]<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre>E.g. in English, this should equate to something like:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre>Return all information for tunnel foo AND ALSO<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Return all information for all connections where the connection name<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>matches one of the connections listed in tunnel foo.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
              <pre>Likewise, how the client can ask for full data of the te-tunnel and<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>all supporting te-tunnels and just pointers for supporting connections?<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>If my xpath above is right, then this would be something roughly like<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>this:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre>Â Â  /te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo'] |<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre>/te/tunnels/tunnel[name=/te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo']/supporting-tunnel<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>s/supporting-tunnel/name]<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre>I'm an XPath novice, so the expressions might be wrong.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre><a href="https://www.freeformatter.com/xpath-tester.html" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.freeformatter.com/xpath-tester.html</a> might be useful. E.g. if<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>you can construct a simple XML instance tree of your data, you could<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>validate whether the XPath expression works.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre>I hope that this is of some help,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Rob<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
              <pre>I really appreciate your help,<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
              <pre>Igor<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
              <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>From: Per Hedeland [<a href="mailto:per@tail-f.com" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:per@tail-f.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 5:21 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>To: Igor Bryskin<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Cc: <a href="mailto:mbj@tail-f.com" moz-do-not-send="true">mbj@tail-f.com</a>; <a href="mailto:xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com</a>; <a href="mailto:netconf@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">netconf@ietf.org</a>;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre><a href="mailto:netmod@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">netmod@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre>Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>leafref<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
              <pre>Just to be clear: what we're suggesting is that you can use the<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>already-existing standard NETCONF XPath capability to achieve the<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>desired<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre>result - see <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6241#section-8.9" moz-do-not-send="true">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6241#section-8.9</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
              <pre>--Per<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
              <pre>On 2017-10-09 21:52, Igor Bryskin wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <pre>I agree. For example, a leafref may point not to a singls entity, but<o:p></o:p></pre>
              </blockquote>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>to a list of entities, and the client might want to expand all of them<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>into the joint get response.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                <pre>Igor<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                <pre>*From:*Per Hedeland<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>*To:*Martin Bjorklund,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>*Cc:*Igor<o:p></o:p></pre>
              </blockquote>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>Bryskin,<a href="mailto:xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com,netconf@ietf.org,netmod@ietf.org</a>,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <pre>*Date:*2017-10-09 15:12:22<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>*Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by<o:p></o:p></pre>
              </blockquote>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>leafref<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                <pre>On 2017-10-09 19:13, Martin Bjorklund wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                  <pre>Igor Bryskin <a href="mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <blockquote
                    style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                    <pre>Hi Per,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                    <pre>Basically, what we need is a way for a client to request something<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre>like this:<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                    <pre>get &lt;XPath&gt; joint with &lt;XPath1, XPath2, ..., XPathn&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  </blockquote>
                  <pre>... which is what Per's expression does!Â  Note that "|" in XPath<o:p></o:p></pre>
                </blockquote>
              </blockquote>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>means<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                  <pre>"union".<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                  <pre>But as Per explained, it only works in some cases (when the leafref<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>acts a "single pointer").<o:p></o:p></pre>
                </blockquote>
                <pre>Well, that particular expression works only in that case - but since<o:p></o:p></pre>
              </blockquote>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>it<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <pre>is effectively the client that (perhaps based on the data model)<o:p></o:p></pre>
              </blockquote>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>decides<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <pre>what the leafref-leafs "mean" (in this case the single key of a<o:p></o:p></pre>
              </blockquote>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>single<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <pre>list), other cases can be handled the same way. E.g. multiple<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>leafref-to-key leafs that together give the keys of a multi-key list<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>just amounts to a slightly hairier XPath filter...<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                <pre>--Per<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                  <blockquote
                    style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                    <pre>with a server interpreting the request as follows:<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre>if a node pointed by XPath contains a pointer (e.g. key leafref)<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre>matching one of the XPath from the "joint with" list, then the<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  </blockquote>
                </blockquote>
              </blockquote>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>server<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                  <blockquote
                    style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                    <pre>must provide the entire body of the node pointed by the pointer,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre>otherwise, just the pointer (as it happens today, that is, when no<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre>"joint with" list specified).<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                    <pre>We think that this would allow for the client to optimize the<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  </blockquote>
                </blockquote>
              </blockquote>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>number<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                  <blockquote
                    style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                    <pre>of request-response iterations depending on application/use case.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                    <pre>Regards,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre>Igor<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  </blockquote>
                  <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                  <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                  <pre>/martin<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                  <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
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                    <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                    <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                    <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                    <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                    <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                    <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre>From: Per Hedeland [<a href="mailto:per@tail-f.com" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:per@tail-f.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre>Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 12:06 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre>To: Xufeng Liu<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre>Cc: Igor Bryskin; <a href="mailto:netconf@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">netconf@ietf.org</a>; <a href="mailto:netmod@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">netmod@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre>Subject: Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre>leafref<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                    <pre>I understand your use case, but a leaf of type leafref does not in<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre>general identify a single node in the data tree - the leafref path<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre>could<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre>be for a non-key leaf, and/or the path could traverse list nodes,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre>and/or<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre>the "target" list could have multiple keys and thus multiple<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre>leafref-leafs be required to identify a specific list entry.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                    <pre>Thus it seems to me that your use case is not a reasonable basis<o:p></o:p></pre>
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            <pre>for a<o:p></o:p></pre>
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                    <pre>new protocol operation. My XPath foo isn't very good either, but I<o:p></o:p></pre>
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            <pre>do<o:p></o:p></pre>
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                    <pre>believe Robert's suggestion of using an XPath filter could be a way<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre>forward. I *think* the filter expression would be something along<o:p></o:p></pre>
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            <pre>the<o:p></o:p></pre>
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                    <pre>lines of<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                    <pre>Â Â  /te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo'] |<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
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            </blockquote>
            <pre>/te/explicit-paths/explicit-path[name=/te/tunnels/tunnel[name='foo']/pat<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>hs/path/explicit-path]<o:p></o:p></pre>
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                    <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                    <pre>--Per<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                    <pre>On 2017-10-09 15:42, Xufeng Liu wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <blockquote
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                      <pre>Hi Per,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre>*From:* Igor Bryskin [<a href="mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre>*Sent:* Sunday, October 8, 2017 7:04 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre>*To:* Igor Bryskin <a href="mailto:Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;Igor.Bryskin@huawei.com&gt;</a>; <a href="mailto:per@tail-f.com" moz-do-not-send="true">per@tail-f.com</a>;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><a href="mailto:*xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">*xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre>*Cc:* <a href="mailto:netconf@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">netconf@ietf.org</a>; <a href="mailto:netmod@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">netmod@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre>*Subject:* Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed<o:p></o:p></pre>
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            <pre>by<o:p></o:p></pre>
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                      <pre>*leafref<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre>Hi Joel,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre>Thanks, I think I didnt explain our problem correctly.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre>In our case we have a leafref pointing to a te tunnel name, which<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre>happens to be a key to lookup the (axilary) tunnel.Â  We need a way<o:p></o:p></pre>
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            <pre>to<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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                      <pre>include the entire tunnel body (not just a name) into the get<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre>response. This is to optimize the number of iterations between the<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre>client and the server. As Xufeng put it something similar to SQL<o:p></o:p></pre>
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            <pre>join,<o:p></o:p></pre>
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                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre>Igor<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre>*From:*Igor Bryskin<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre>*To:*per@tail-f.com,<a href="mailto:xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com</a>,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre>*Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,<a href="mailto:netmod@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">netmod@ietf.org</a>,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre>*Date:*2017-10-08 17:36:47<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre>*Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre>*leafref<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre>Hi Per,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre>In a nutshell we would lika for a netconf client to have a way to<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre>instruct the server on whether in response to the get request the<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre>server needs to provide the entire body of a datastore node<o:p></o:p></pre>
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            <pre>pointed<o:p></o:p></pre>
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                      <pre>to by a leafref or just a pointer to said node, so that the node's<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre>body could be retrieved by a subsequent separate request. This is<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre>requested by implementors who want to optimise rhe number of<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre>interactions between a client and its server.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre>Igor<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre>*From:*Per Hedeland<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre>*To:*Xufeng Liu,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre>*Cc:*netconf@ietf.org,'NetMod WG',<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre>*Date:*2017-10-08 14:01:27<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre>*Subject:*Re: [Netconf] [netmod] Retrieving Information Pointed by<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre>*leafref<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre>On 2017-10-06 23:11, Xufeng Liu wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <blockquote
                        style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                        <pre>During the design team discussion for TE and MPLS YANG modeling,<o:p></o:p></pre>
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            <pre>we<o:p></o:p></pre>
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                        <pre>have received a request from implementers: How to minimize the<o:p></o:p></pre>
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            <pre>number<o:p></o:p></pre>
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                        <pre>of NETCONF/RESTCONF RPCs to improve operation efficiency?<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre>Especially for the case when the operator or client software<o:p></o:p></pre>
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            <pre>needs to<o:p></o:p></pre>
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                        <pre>retrieve the object contents pointed by a leafref.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                        <pre>For example, given the following simplified TE tunnel model,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                        <pre>+--rw te<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                        <pre>Â Â Â  Â Â Â +--rw explicit-paths<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â Â  |Â  +--rw explicit-path* [name]<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â Â  |Â Â Â Â  +--rw nameÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  string<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â Â  |Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  +--rw explicit-route-object* [index]<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â Â  |Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  +--rw indexÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  uint32<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â Â  |Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  +--rw explicit-route-usage?Â Â  identityref<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â Â  +--rw tunnels<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â Â  |Â  +--rw tunnel* [name]<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â Â  |Â  |Â  +--rw nameÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  string<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â Â  |Â  |Â  +--rw paths<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                        <pre>Â Â Â Â Â Â  |Â  |Â  |Â  +--rw path* [name]<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                        <pre>|Â  |Â  |Â Â Â Â  +--rw explicit-path?Â  -&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre>|Â  |Â  |Â Â Â Â  ../../../../../explicit-paths/explicit-path/name<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                        <pre>when the client tries to retrieve a tunnels information based on<o:p></o:p></pre>
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            <pre>the<o:p></o:p></pre>
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                        <pre>tunnel name, the get operation returns a list of leafrefs<o:p></o:p></pre>
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            <pre>pointing<o:p></o:p></pre>
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                        <pre>to the paths of the tunnel.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      </blockquote>
                      <pre>Sorry, I'm afraid I don't follow. Can you explain exactly what<o:p></o:p></pre>
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            <pre>your<o:p></o:p></pre>
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                      <pre>"get" request is (protocol and payload), and where the "list of<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre>leafref's" (whatever that may be) occurs in the reply?<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre>*/[Xufeng] The get operation is the NETCONF/RESTCON &lt;get&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
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            <pre>protocol<o:p></o:p></pre>
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                      <pre>*operation, or the &lt;get-data&gt; operation described in<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre>*<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01" moz-do-not-send="true">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dsdt-nmda-netconf-01</a> and the<o:p></o:p></pre>
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            <pre>GET<o:p></o:p></pre>
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                      <pre>*operations<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre>on {+restconf}/ds/&lt;datastore&gt; described in<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00./*" moz-do-not-send="true">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-00./*</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre>*/ /*<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre>*/We have a list of leafref values because in this example model,<o:p></o:p></pre>
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            <pre>each<o:p></o:p></pre>
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                    <blockquote
                      style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                      <pre>*tunnel contains a list of paths, each of them contains a leafref.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    </blockquote>
                  </blockquote>
                </blockquote>
              </blockquote>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>The<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                  <blockquote
                    style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                    <blockquote
                      style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                      <pre>*get returns a value for each instance of such a leafref,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre>which (as a string value) will be used as a constraint (foreign<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    </blockquote>
                  </blockquote>
                </blockquote>
              </blockquote>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>key)<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                  <blockquote
                    style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                    <blockquote
                      style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                      <pre>to retrieve the instance of an explicit-path in the model above./*<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre>JFYI, in case there is some fundamental misunderstanding here: a<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    </blockquote>
                  </blockquote>
                </blockquote>
              </blockquote>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>leaf<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                  <blockquote
                    style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                    <blockquote
                      style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                      <pre>of<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre>type leafref has a single value - *one* of those that satisfy the<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre>leafref<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre>constraint, in case there are multiple "candidates".<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <pre>--Per<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      <blockquote
                        style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                        <pre>The client needs to issue at<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre>least one more get operation to retrieve the path information<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      </blockquote>
                    </blockquote>
                  </blockquote>
                </blockquote>
              </blockquote>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>about<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                  <blockquote
                    style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                    <blockquote
                      style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                      <blockquote
                        style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                        <pre>the given tunnel. The request is to combine these two operations<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      </blockquote>
                    </blockquote>
                  </blockquote>
                </blockquote>
              </blockquote>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>into<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                  <blockquote
                    style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                    <blockquote
                      style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                      <blockquote
                        style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                        <pre>one.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                        <pre>In the RDBMS SQL world, join can be used when SQL select is<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre>performed, but NETCONF/YANG currently does not have this<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      </blockquote>
                    </blockquote>
                  </blockquote>
                </blockquote>
              </blockquote>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>capability.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                  <blockquote
                    style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                    <blockquote
                      style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                      <blockquote
                        style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                        <pre>Wed like to ask whether such a request is considered reasonable.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                        <pre>If the request is reasonable, the next question is how to<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre>proceed. This seems to be a protocol issue rather than YANG<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      </blockquote>
                    </blockquote>
                  </blockquote>
                </blockquote>
              </blockquote>
            </blockquote>
            <pre>modeling<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                  <blockquote
                    style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                    <blockquote
                      style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                      <blockquote
                        style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                        <pre>issue. Is it acceptable to add a new operation to achieve such a<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre>&lt;get-data&gt; operation with expanded leafrefs?<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                        <pre>Comments and suggestions are appreciated.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                        <pre>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                        <pre>- Xufeng<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                        <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre>netmod mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre><a href="mailto:netmod@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">netmod@ietf.org</a> <a href="mailto:netmod@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;mailto:netmod@ietf.org&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre><a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                        <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                      </blockquote>
                      <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre>Netconf mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><a href="mailto:Netconf@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">Netconf@ietf.org</a> <a href="mailto:Netconf@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;mailto:Netconf@ietf.org&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                      <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                    </blockquote>
                    <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre>Netconf mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre><a href="mailto:Netconf@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">Netconf@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre><a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                    <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
                  </blockquote>
                </blockquote>
              </blockquote>
              <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>netmod mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><a href="mailto:netmod@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">netmod@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre>------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>--------<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
              <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>netmod mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><a href="mailto:netmod@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">netmod@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
            <pre>.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>Â </o:p></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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From nobody Thu Oct 12 11:01:58 2017
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From: "Alexander Clemm" <ludwig@clemm.org>
To: "'Robert Wilton'" <rwilton@cisco.com>, "'Yingzhen Qu'" <yingzhen.qu@huawei.com>, "'Jeff Tantsura'" <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, <netconf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] New Version Notification for draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt
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Hi Rob,

Thank you! =20

A couple of responses inline, <ALEX>

--- Alex

=20

From: Robert Wilton [mailto:rwilton@cisco.com]=20
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 3:13 AM
To: Alexander Clemm <ludwig@clemm.org>; 'Yingzhen Qu' =
<yingzhen.qu@huawei.com>; 'Jeff Tantsura' <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>; =
netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] New Version Notification for =
draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt

=20

=E2=80=A6



It was this paragraph that seemed to imply that applied configuration =
appears in <intended>:




Some of this is
   entirely expected, as there may be a time lag between when a
   configuration is applied to the device and reflected e.g. in
   <intended>, until when it actually takes effect and is reflected in
   <operational>.


Perhaps just changing it as follows may be more clear:




Some of this is
   entirely expected, as there may be a time lag between when
   configuration is given to the device and reflected in
   <intended>, until when it actually applied by the device and
   is reflected in <operational>.

=20

<ALEX> Sure, will update to make this clearer.  I guess I was using =
=E2=80=9Capplied=E2=80=9D as an overloaded term. </ALEX>






=20

If we don=E2=80=99t include the dampening option, it certainly makes =
implementation simpler.  However, my concern would be that if we report =
every discrepancy, even very shortlived ones, that the usefulness of =
this suffers since some propagation delays will naturally occur.  A user =
could of course always indicate a dampening period of 0.=20

So the purpose of your dampening is to filter out changes that are =
configuration changes that may still be in the act of being applied?

I think that your current definition of dampening may require some =
additional per node time tracking to implement correctly.

A similar, but cheaper way to implement this could be to filter the list =
of differences to exclude any nodes that have been re-configured within =
the last X seconds.  This isn't quite the same, but potentially good =
enough.

But, overall, I'm still not convinced whether the dampening is a good =
idea or not.  Or at least whether it shouldn't be something that is =
optional to implement in the RFC.


<ALEX> Making this optional is certainly an option.  Certainly dampening =
makes implementation harder.  However, I do think that it is a =
worthwhile feature, since it can be used to weed out =E2=80=9Cfalse =
positives=E2=80=9D and direct attention to inconsistencies that persist =
- this way, facilitating e.g. service-assurance related operations. =20

=20

There are different ways to frame it and one of the questions will be to =
decide which should be the preferred option.  Focusing on items that =
have been reconfigured within X seconds seems to point to another =
possible feature on how one might articulate a filter, but not what we =
had in mind here.  I think what may provide a good compromise between =
usefulness and ease of implementation would be to have a dampening =
parameter refer not to a =E2=80=9Cprecise=E2=80=9D time, but to be more =
indicative of a range.  For example, it could be the interval between a =
first snapshot of discrepancies, and a subsequent second snapshot.  =
Straightforward semantics, but different from saying =E2=80=9Cit has to =
persist for exactly x seconds=E2=80=9D. =20

</ALEX>

=20

Including the origin annotation as an option when reporting the =
differences is a good suggestion.   Can we accomplish this with =
yang-patch, or will we need an extension there? =20


I'm not sure, but it looks like YANG patch is allowed to include meta =
data encoded via RFC 7952.

=20

<ALEX> Need to check; if we can do that this will be straightforward and =
we should include this.  Thanks for the suggestion! </ALEX>



=E2=80=A6




=20


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</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite =
lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:windowtext'>Hi =
Rob,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'>Thank you!=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:windowtext'>A couple of responses =
inline, &lt;ALEX&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'>--- Alex<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'> Robert Wilton [mailto:rwilton@cisco.com] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 9, 2017 3:13 AM<br><b>To:</b> Alexander =
Clemm &lt;ludwig@clemm.org&gt;; 'Yingzhen Qu' =
&lt;yingzhen.qu@huawei.com&gt;; 'Jeff Tantsura' =
&lt;jefftant.ietf@gmail.com&gt;; netconf@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[Netconf] New Version Notification for =
draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-00.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'>=E2=80=A6</span><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><br><br>It was this paragraph that seemed to imply =
that applied configuration appears in =
&lt;intended&gt;:<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>Some of this =
is<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 entirely expected, as there may be =
a time lag between when a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
configuration is applied to the device and reflected e.g. =
in<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 &lt;intended&gt;, until when it =
actually takes effect and is reflected =
in<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
&lt;operational&gt;.<o:p></o:p></pre><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>Perhaps =
just changing it as follows may be more =
clear:<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>Some of this =
is<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 entirely expected, as there may be =
a time lag between when<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 configuration =
is given to the device and reflected =
in<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 &lt;intended&gt;, until when it =
actually applied by the device and<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 is =
reflected in &lt;operational&gt;.<o:p></o:p></pre><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:windowtext'>&lt;ALEX&gt; Sure, =
will update to make this clearer. =C2=A0I guess I was using =
=E2=80=9Capplied=E2=80=9D as an overloaded term. =
&lt;/ALEX&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:windowtext'>If we don=E2=80=99t =
include the dampening option, it certainly makes implementation =
simpler.&nbsp; However, my concern would be that if we report every =
discrepancy, even very shortlived ones, that the usefulness of this =
suffers since some propagation delays will naturally occur.&nbsp; A user =
could of course always indicate a dampening period of 0. =
</span><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p class=3DMsoNormal>So the purpose =
of your dampening is to filter out changes that are configuration =
changes that may still be in the act of being applied?<br><br>I think =
that your current definition of dampening may require some additional =
per node time tracking to implement correctly.<br><br>A similar, but =
cheaper way to implement this could be to filter the list of differences =
to exclude any nodes that have been re-configured within the last X =
seconds.&nbsp; This isn't quite the same, but potentially good =
enough.<br><br>But, overall, I'm still not convinced whether the =
dampening is a good idea or not.&nbsp; Or at least whether it shouldn't =
be something that is optional to implement in the RFC.<br><br><br><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'>&lt;ALEX&gt; Making this optional is =
certainly an option.=C2=A0 Certainly dampening makes implementation =
harder.=C2=A0 However, I do think that it is a worthwhile feature, since =
it can be used to weed out =E2=80=9Cfalse positives=E2=80=9D and direct =
attention to inconsistencies that persist - this way, facilitating e.g. =
service-assurance related operations.=C2=A0 </span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:windowtext'>There are different =
ways to frame it and one of the questions will be to decide which should =
be the preferred option.=C2=A0 Focusing on items that have been =
reconfigured within X seconds seems to point to another possible feature =
on how one might articulate a filter, but not what we had in mind here. =
=C2=A0I think what may provide a good compromise between usefulness and =
ease of implementation would be to have a dampening parameter refer not =
to a =E2=80=9Cprecise=E2=80=9D time, but to be more indicative of a =
range.=C2=A0 For example, it could be the interval between a first =
snapshot of discrepancies, and a subsequent second snapshot. =
=C2=A0Straightforward semantics, but different from saying =E2=80=9Cit =
has to persist for exactly x seconds=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'>&lt;/ALEX&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><blockquote=
 style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:windowtext'>Including the origin =
annotation as an option when reporting the differences is a good =
suggestion.&nbsp;&nbsp; Can we accomplish this with yang-patch, or will =
we need an extension there?&nbsp; </span><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>I'm not sure, but it looks like YANG patch is =
allowed to include meta data encoded via RFC 7952.<span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:windowtext'>&lt;ALEX&gt; Need to =
check; if we can do that this will be straightforward and we should =
include this.=C2=A0 Thanks for the suggestion! =
&lt;/ALEX&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext'>=E2=80=A6</span><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
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From: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <2836cfe4-605c-a443-593b-6caaf05e0d9c@cisco.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2017 18:24:23 -0700
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> On Oct 10, 2017, at 11:38 PM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
> Dear all,
>=20
> The comment below has not been discussed and I don't see any changes =
part of draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-06.
> However, I'm sending the document to IETF LC now, with a tentative =
IESG telechat date on Oct 26th.
> Please discuss (and resolve, if necessary) this comment.
>=20
> Regards, Benoit
>> Dear all,
>>=20
>> Investigating further, one more point.
>>       3.2.2
>>        =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#section-3.2.=
2> =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#section-3.2.=
2>.
>>        Access Rights
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>    A small set of hard-wired datastore access rights is needed to
>>    control access to all possible NETCONF protocol operations, =
including
>>    vendor extensions to the standard protocol operation set.
>>=20
>>    The "CRUDX" model can support all NETCONF protocol operations:
>>=20
>>    o  Create: allows the client to add a new data node instance to a
>>       datastore.
>>=20
>>    o  Read: allows the client to read a data node instance from a
>>       datastore or receive the notification event type.
>>=20
>>    o  Update: allows the client to update an existing data node =
instance
>>       in a datastore.
>>=20
>>    o  Delete: allows the client to delete a data node instance from a
>>       datastore.
>>=20
>>    o  eXec: allows the client to execute the operation.
>>=20
>>=20
>> What is the link with RESTCONF?
>> I guess I don't understand (the idea behind) this section.

The section itself is a carryover from RFC 6536.=20

But I guess your question is whether the same access rights apply to =
RESTCONF also, and if so where does it say that. Looking at RFC 8040, I =
see the following statements there.=20

   Access control mechanisms are used to limit what CRUD operations can
   be used.  In particular, RESTCONF is compatible with the NETCONF
   Access Control Model (NACM) [RFC6536 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6536>], as there is a specific mapping
   between RESTCONF and NETCONF operations.

Would it help to quote something similar here? Maybe something like =
this:

   RESTCONF is compatible with the NETCONF Access Control Model (NACM) =
defined in this draft and the=20
   CRUDX operations used to enforce access control mechanisms, as there =
is a specific mapping between
   RESTCONF and NETCONF operations.

Thanks

>>=20
>> Regards, Benoit
>>> Dear all,
>>>=20
>>> Here is my AD review for draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.
>>>=20
>>> There are no YANG module dependencies to publish this document:
>>>     =
https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules =
<https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules>[]=3D=
ietf-netconf-acm =3D> select "Dependencies only"
>>> The YANG module validates correctly:
>>>     =
https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.php?module=3Dietf-n=
etconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang =
<https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.php?module=3Dietf-=
netconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang>
>>> No more issues:
>>>     https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis =
<https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis>
>>> The diffs with RFC 6536 are minor.
>>>     =
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.org/rfc=
/rfc6536.txt&url2=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bi=
s-05.txt =
<http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.org/rf=
c/rfc6536.txt&url2=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536b=
is-05.txt>
>>>=20
>>> Very good so far.
>>>=20
>>> There are however two issues:
>>> - You should either remove NETCONF or add RESTCONF to the document =
title.
>>> - Update the Security Considerations based on the new template.
>>>=20
>>> Editorial:
>>> This document thought of the NMDA/revised datastore architecture =
[I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf=
-netmod-revised-datastores>]. After all, it's a normative reference ... =
just for the definition. However, I don't clearly see this message. =
Should we clearly mention that point in section 2.4 or section =
3.2/3.2.1.=20
>>> For example:=20
>>>    The same access control rules apply to all datastores that =
support
>>>    NACM, for example, the candidate configuration datastore or the
>>>    running configuration datastore.
>>> NEW:
>>>    The same access control rules apply to all datastores that =
support
>>>    NACM, including the ones following the Network Management =
Datastore
>>>    Architecture [I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf=
-netmod-revised-datastores>], for example ...=20
>>>=20
>>> Regards, Benoit
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Netconf mailing list
>>> Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf>
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Netconf mailing list
>> Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com




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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 10, 2017, at 11:38 PM, Benoit Claise &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco.com" class=3D"">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">
 =20
    <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8" class=3D"">
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" class=3D"">
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">Dear all,<br class=3D"">
      <br class=3D"">
      The comment below has not been discussed and I don't see any
      changes part of draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-06.<br class=3D"">
      However, I'm sending the document to IETF LC now, with a tentative
      IESG telechat date on Oct 26th.<br class=3D"">
      Please discuss (and resolve, if necessary) this comment.<br =
class=3D"">
      <br class=3D"">
      Regards, Benoit<br class=3D"">
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" =
cite=3D"mid:a455da82-f39a-3e9c-2d75-01b0a2a92cb1@cisco.com" class=3D"">
      <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8" class=3D"">
      <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">Dear all,<br class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        Investigating further, one more point.<br class=3D"">
        <pre wrap=3D"" class=3D"">      3.2.2
       <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#secti=
on-3.2.2" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">&lt;https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netcon=
f-rfc6536bis-05#section-3.2.2&gt;</a>.
       Access Rights



   A small set of hard-wired datastore access rights is needed to
   control access to all possible NETCONF protocol operations, including
   vendor extensions to the standard protocol operation set.

   The "CRUDX" model can support all NETCONF protocol operations:

   o  Create: allows the client to add a new data node instance to a
      datastore.

   o  Read: allows the client to read a data node instance from a
      datastore or receive the notification event type.

   o  Update: allows the client to update an existing data node instance
      in a datastore.

   o  Delete: allows the client to delete a data node instance from a
      datastore.

   o  eXec: allows the client to execute the operation.


</pre>
      </div>
      What is the link with RESTCONF?<br class=3D"">
      I guess I don't understand (the idea behind) this section.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>The section itself is a carryover from RFC =
6536.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>But I guess your =
question is whether the same access rights apply to RESTCONF also, and =
if so where does it say that. Looking at RFC 8040, I see the following =
statements there.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.3333px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: =
2;">   Access control mechanisms are used to limit what CRUD operations =
can
   be used.  In particular, RESTCONF is compatible with the NETCONF
   Access Control Model (NACM) [<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6536" title=3D"&quot;Network =
Configuration Protocol (NETCONF) Access Control Model&quot;" =
class=3D"">RFC6536</a>], as there is a specific mapping
   between RESTCONF and NETCONF operations.</pre><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div>Would it help to quote something similar =
here? Maybe something like this:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.3333px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: =
2;">   RESTCONF is compatible with the NETCONF Access Control Model =
(NACM) defined in this draft and the&nbsp;</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"font-size: 13.3333px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2;">   CRUDX =
operations used to enforce access control mechanisms, as there is a =
specific mapping between</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: =
13.3333px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: =
normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2;">   RESTCONF and NETCONF =
operations.</pre><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div>Thanks</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div text=3D"#000000" =
bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
cite=3D"mid:a455da82-f39a-3e9c-2d75-01b0a2a92cb1@cisco.com" class=3D"">
      <br class=3D"">
      Regards, Benoit<br class=3D"">
      <blockquote type=3D"cite" =
cite=3D"mid:4b988ee4-3787-9616-bbd5-3de6b9f82f70@cisco.com" =
class=3D"">Dear
        all,<br class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        Here is my AD review for draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.<br =
class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        There are no YANG module dependencies to publish this =
document:<br class=3D"">
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?module=
s" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_an=
alysis.php?modules</a>[]=3Dietf-netconf-acm
        =3D&gt; select "Dependencies only"<br class=3D"">
        The YANG module validates correctly:<br class=3D"">
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.php?module=3D=
ietf-netconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_de=
tails.php?module=3Dietf-netconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang</a><br class=3D"">
        No more issues:<br class=3D"">
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis</a><br =
class=3D"">
        The diffs with RFC 6536 are minor.<br class=3D"">
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=3Dhttps://tools.ietf=
.org/rfc/rfc6536.txt&amp;url2=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-netco=
nf-rfc6536bis-05.txt" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=3Dh=
ttps://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6536.txt&amp;url2=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.org/id=
/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.txt</a><br class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        Very good so far.<br class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        There are however two issues:<br class=3D"">
        - You should either remove NETCONF or add RESTCONF to the
        document title.<br class=3D"">
        - Update the Security Considerations based on the new =
template.<br class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        Editorial:<br class=3D"">
        This document thought of the NMDA/revised datastore architecture
        [<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I=
-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores" moz-do-not-send=3D"true" =
class=3D"">I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores</a>].
        After all, it's a normative reference ... just for the
        definition. However, I don't clearly see this message. Should we
        clearly mention that point in section 2.4 or section 3.2/3.2.1.
        <br class=3D"">
        For example: <br class=3D"">
        <pre class=3D"newpage">   The same access control rules apply to =
all datastores that support
   NACM, for example, the candidate configuration datastore or the
   running configuration datastore.</pre>
        NEW:<br class=3D"">
        <pre class=3D"newpage">   The same access control rules apply to =
all datastores that support
   NACM, including the ones following the Network Management Datastore
   Architecture [<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I=
-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores" moz-do-not-send=3D"true" =
class=3D"">I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores</a>], for example ...=20

</pre>
        Regards, Benoit<br class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        <fieldset class=3D"mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
        <br class=3D"">
        <pre wrap=3D"" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">Netconf@ietf.org</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a>=

</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <br class=3D"">
      <br class=3D"">
      <fieldset class=3D"mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br class=3D"">
      <pre wrap=3D"" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" =
href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br class=3D"">
  </div>

_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">Netconf =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">Netconf@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Mahesh Jethanandani</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">

</div>
<br class=3D""></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_6336DFE1-8E40-4D5B-B0B7-7B0AC190F83D--


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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2017 18:30:25 -0700
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To: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] AD review of draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05
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--001a11401a04eef754055b6399cf
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 6:24 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani <
mjethanandani@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Oct 10, 2017, at 11:38 PM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> The comment below has not been discussed and I don't see any changes part
> of draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-06.
> However, I'm sending the document to IETF LC now, with a tentative IESG
> telechat date on Oct 26th.
> Please discuss (and resolve, if necessary) this comment.
>
> Regards, Benoit
>
> Dear all,
>
> Investigating further, one more point.
>
>       3.2.2
>        <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#section-3.2.2> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#section-3.2.2>.
>        Access Rights
>
>
>
>    A small set of hard-wired datastore access rights is needed to
>    control access to all possible NETCONF protocol operations, including
>    vendor extensions to the standard protocol operation set.
>
>    The "CRUDX" model can support all NETCONF protocol operations:
>
>    o  Create: allows the client to add a new data node instance to a
>       datastore.
>
>    o  Read: allows the client to read a data node instance from a
>       datastore or receive the notification event type.
>
>    o  Update: allows the client to update an existing data node instance
>       in a datastore.
>
>    o  Delete: allows the client to delete a data node instance from a
>       datastore.
>
>    o  eXec: allows the client to execute the operation.
>
>
>
> What is the link with RESTCONF?
> I guess I don't understand (the idea behind) this section.
>
>
> The section itself is a carryover from RFC 6536.
>
>
How about just removing the 2 instances of the word "NETCONF"?
Maybe it can be an instruction to the RFC Editor and fixed later.


Andy


But I guess your question is whether the same access rights apply to
> RESTCONF also, and if so where does it say that. Looking at RFC 8040, I see
> the following statements there.
>
>    Access control mechanisms are used to limit what CRUD operations can
>    be used.  In particular, RESTCONF is compatible with the NETCONF
>    Access Control Model (NACM) [RFC6536 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6536>], as there is a specific mapping
>    between RESTCONF and NETCONF operations.
>
>
> Would it help to quote something similar here? Maybe something like this:
>
>    RESTCONF is compatible with the NETCONF Access Control Model (NACM) defined in this draft and the
>
>    CRUDX operations used to enforce access control mechanisms, as there is a specific mapping between
>
>    RESTCONF and NETCONF operations.
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Regards, Benoit
>
> Dear all,
>
> Here is my AD review for draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.
>
> There are no YANG module dependencies to publish this document:
>     https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules[]=ietf-netconf-acm
> => select "Dependencies only"
> The YANG module validates correctly:
>     https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.
> php?module=ietf-netconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang
> No more issues:
>     https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis
> The diffs with RFC 6536 are minor.
>     http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=https://
> tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6536.txt&url2=https://tools.ietf.
> org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.txt
>
> Very good so far.
>
> There are however two issues:
> - You should either remove NETCONF or add RESTCONF to the document title.
> - Update the Security Considerations based on the new template.
>
> Editorial:
> This document thought of the NMDA/revised datastore architecture [
> I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores>].
> After all, it's a normative reference ... just for the definition. However,
> I don't clearly see this message. Should we clearly mention that point in
> section 2.4 or section 3.2/3.2.1.
> For example:
>
>    The same access control rules apply to all datastores that support
>    NACM, for example, the candidate configuration datastore or the
>    running configuration datastore.
>
> NEW:
>
>    The same access control rules apply to all datastores that support
>    NACM, including the ones following the Network Management Datastore
>    Architecture [I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores>], for example ...
>
>
> Regards, Benoit
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing listNetconf@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing listNetconf@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>
>
> Mahesh Jethanandani
> mjethanandani@gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>
>

--001a11401a04eef754055b6399cf
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 6:24 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mjethanand=
ani@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On O=
ct 10, 2017, at 11:38 PM, Benoit Claise &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bclaise@cisco=
.com" target=3D"_blank">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"=
m_5382509814275514194Apple-interchange-newline"><div>
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <div class=3D"m_5382509814275514194moz-cite-prefix">Dear all,<br>
      <br>
      The comment below has not been discussed and I don&#39;t see any
      changes part of draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-<wbr>06.<br>
      However, I&#39;m sending the document to IETF LC now, with a tentativ=
e
      IESG telechat date on Oct 26th.<br>
      Please discuss (and resolve, if necessary) this comment.<br>
      <br>
      Regards, Benoit<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
     =20
      <div class=3D"m_5382509814275514194moz-cite-prefix">Dear all,<br>
        <br>
        Investigating further, one more point.<br>
        <pre>      3.2.2
       <a class=3D"m_5382509814275514194moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"http=
s://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#section-3.2.2" tar=
get=3D"_blank">&lt;https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6=
536bis-<wbr>05#section-3.2.2&gt;</a>.
       Access Rights



   A small set of hard-wired datastore access rights is needed to
   control access to all possible NETCONF protocol operations, including
   vendor extensions to the standard protocol operation set.

   The &quot;CRUDX&quot; model can support all NETCONF protocol operations:

   o  Create: allows the client to add a new data node instance to a
      datastore.

   o  Read: allows the client to read a data node instance from a
      datastore or receive the notification event type.

   o  Update: allows the client to update an existing data node instance
      in a datastore.

   o  Delete: allows the client to delete a data node instance from a
      datastore.

   o  eXec: allows the client to execute the operation.


</pre>
      </div>
      What is the link with RESTCONF?<br>
      I guess I don&#39;t understand (the idea behind) this section.<br></b=
lockquote></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>The section itself is a c=
arryover from RFC 6536.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><=
br></div><div>How about just removing the 2 instances of the word &quot;NET=
CONF&quot;?</div><div>Maybe it can be an instruction to the RFC Editor and =
fixed later.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div><br></d=
iv><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:br=
eak-word"><div></div><div>But I guess your question is whether the same acc=
ess rights apply to RESTCONF also, and if so where does it say that. Lookin=
g at RFC 8040, I see the following statements there.=C2=A0</div><div><br></=
div><div><pre class=3D"m_5382509814275514194newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.=
3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal">   A=
ccess control mechanisms are used to limit what CRUD operations can
   be used.  In particular, RESTCONF is compatible with the NETCONF
   Access Control Model (NACM) [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6=
536" title=3D"&quot;Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF) Access Control=
 Model&quot;" target=3D"_blank">RFC6536</a>], as there is a specific mappin=
g
   between RESTCONF and NETCONF operations.</pre><div><br></div></div><div>=
Would it help to quote something similar here? Maybe something like this:</=
div><div><br></div><div><pre class=3D"m_5382509814275514194newpage" style=
=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-variant-ligat=
ures:normal">   RESTCONF is compatible with the NETCONF Access Control Mode=
l (NACM) defined in this draft and the=C2=A0</pre><pre class=3D"m_538250981=
4275514194newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-botto=
m:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal">   CRUDX operations used to enforce ac=
cess control mechanisms, as there is a specific mapping between</pre><pre c=
lass=3D"m_5382509814275514194newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-t=
op:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal">   RESTCONF and NET=
CONF operations.</pre><div><br></div></div><div>Thanks</div><div><br><block=
quote type=3D"cite"><div><div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><blockqu=
ote type=3D"cite">
      <br>
      Regards, Benoit<br>
      <blockquote type=3D"cite">Dear
        all,<br>
        <br>
        Here is my AD review for draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-<wbr>05.<br>
        <br>
        There are no YANG module dependencies to publish this document:<br>
        =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a class=3D"m_5382509814275514194moz-txt-link-fr=
eetext" href=3D"https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php=
?modules" target=3D"_blank">https://www.yangcatalog.org/<wbr>yang-search/im=
pact_analysis.<wbr>php?modules</a>[]=3Dietf-netconf-acm
        =3D&gt; select &quot;Dependencies only&quot;<br>
        The YANG module validates correctly:<br>
        =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a class=3D"m_5382509814275514194moz-txt-link-fr=
eetext" href=3D"https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.php?=
module=3Dietf-netconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ya=
ngcatalog.org/<wbr>yang-search/module_details.<wbr>php?module=3Dietf-netcon=
f-acm@<wbr>2017-09-13.yang</a><br>
        No more issues:<br>
        =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a class=3D"m_5382509814275514194moz-txt-link-fr=
eetext" href=3D"https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://github.com/netconf-wg/<wbr>rfc6536bis</a><br>
        The diffs with RFC 6536 are minor.<br>
        =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a class=3D"m_5382509814275514194moz-txt-link-fr=
eetext" href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=3Dhttps://too=
ls.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6536.txt&amp;url2=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf=
-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.txt" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/<=
wbr>rfcdiff.pyht?url1=3Dhttps://<wbr>tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6536.<wbr>txt&am=
p;url2=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.<wbr>org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-<wbr>rfc6536bis-=
05.txt</a><br>
        <br>
        Very good so far.<br>
        <br>
        There are however two issues:<br>
        - You should either remove NETCONF or add RESTCONF to the
        document title.<br>
        - Update the Security Considerations based on the new template.<br>
        <br>
        Editorial:<br>
        This document thought of the NMDA/revised datastore architecture
        [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536b=
is-05#ref-I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores" target=3D"_blank">I-D.ietf-ne=
tmod-revised-<wbr>datastores</a>].
        After all, it&#39;s a normative reference ... just for the
        definition. However, I don&#39;t clearly see this message. Should w=
e
        clearly mention that point in section 2.4 or section 3.2/<a href=3D=
"http://3.2.1." target=3D"_blank">3.2.1.</a>
        <br>
        For example: <br>
        <pre class=3D"m_5382509814275514194newpage">   The same access cont=
rol rules apply to all datastores that support
   NACM, for example, the candidate configuration datastore or the
   running configuration datastore.</pre>
        NEW:<br>
        <pre class=3D"m_5382509814275514194newpage">   The same access cont=
rol rules apply to all datastores that support
   NACM, including the ones following the Network Management Datastore
   Architecture [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-=
rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores" target=3D"_blank">I-D=
.ietf-netmod-revised-<wbr>datastores</a>], for example ...=20

</pre>
        Regards, Benoit<br>
        <br>
        <fieldset class=3D"m_5382509814275514194mimeAttachmentHeader"></fie=
ldset>
        <br>
        <pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
Netconf mailing list
<a class=3D"m_5382509814275514194moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:N=
etconf@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Netconf@ietf.org</a>
<a class=3D"m_5382509814275514194moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www=
.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/<wbr>listinfo/netconf</a>
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      <br>
      <fieldset class=3D"m_5382509814275514194mimeAttachmentHeader"></field=
set>
      <br>
      <pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
Netconf mailing list
<a class=3D"m_5382509814275514194moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:N=
etconf@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Netconf@ietf.org</a>
<a class=3D"m_5382509814275514194moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www=
.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/<wbr>listinfo/netconf</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div>

______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Netconf mailing lis=
t<br><a href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Netconf@ietf.org=
</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf" target=3D=
"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/netconf</a><span class=
=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br></font></span></div></blockquote></=
div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><div>
<div>Mahesh Jethanandani</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a></div><div><br></div><br cl=
ass=3D"m_5382509814275514194Apple-interchange-newline">

</div>
<br></font></span></div><br>______________________________<wbr>____________=
_____<br>
Netconf mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf" rel=3D"noreferrer=
" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/netconf</a><=
br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a11401a04eef754055b6399cf--


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Subject: Re: [Netconf] WG LC for zerotouch
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Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:
> Hi Martin et al.,
> 
> I'm preparing an update to the zerotouch draft.  Should have it out
> later this week.  More comments below (again trimming down it just
> open items).
> 
> K.
> 
> >> >> I suppose that this is an issue for the afore-mentioned restconf
> >> >> client/server draft more so than this one though.  Still, since
> >> >> we're talking about it, assuming we did this, would that draft
> >> >> add said identities, or would a 7407bis be better?
> >> >
> >> > I think that such an identitiy could be defined in this draft.  
> >> > Isn't such an identity quite specific to this use case?
> >> 
> >> okay, but in which module? - it just needs to be a module imported
> >> wherever ietf-x509-cert-to-name is used (ietf-netconf-server and 
> >> ietf-restconf-server) but not any module defined in this draft.
> >> So maybe yet another module is needed in this draft: ietf-more-
> >> x509-cert-to-name-identities? - naming suggestions welcomed! ;)
> >
> > Hmm.  Maybe a new document with just a new version of
> > ietf-x509-cert-to-name is most appropriate?  (I.e., not a complete
> > 7407bis)  Or even update ietf-x509-cert-to-name in this document...
> 
> Defining it in this draft would be most expedient, but it goes
> against my sensibilities.  The question that will be asked: "why
> should the draft-ietf-[net|rest]conf-client-server have a normative
> reference to the Zerotouch draft?"
> 
> That said, since this draft isn't itself using cert-to-name, we can
> defer defining this to when we pick up the client/server model drafts
> again - agreed?

Ok.  Unless it turns out it is not needed at all...

> >> >> >> Since the NACM rule is not obvious, and due to the cert implications,
> >> >> >> I think it would be very helpful with an appendix that describes how
> >> >> >> this can be set up.
> >> >> 
> >> >> I think that this will depend on if we go with an action or a
> >> >> top-level
> >> >> RPC. If an action, then NACM may have a place and an example may help.
> >> >> But, if using a top-level RPC, then it seems that the server has no 
> >> >> option but to auth the DevID cert and provide a RESTCONF
> >> >> username-specific
> >> >> response - NACM can't constrain it any further, right?
> >> > 
> >> > Correct.
> >> 
> >> Well, maybe not entirely correct.  It looks like NACM rules can 
> >> constrain RPCs using the "rpc-name" rule type.
> >
> > Yes, but NACM cannot control access based on input parameters, which
> > is what would be needed in this case.
> 
> Is that true?  Unless you're saying something subtle, my proposal
> doesn't
> entail passing an input parameter for which device to return the data
> for,
> but rather to use the authenticated RESTCONF username directly.  By
> design,
> devices MUST get only their data via this SBI.  A separate NBI (YANG
> module)
> needs to be designed (out of scope to this document) for how the
> system is
> configured to have the data ready for the devices. Does using an RPC
> make
> sense now, or do you still think an action is better?

I meant that if the RPC takes the unique-id as a parameter, then you
cannot use NACM to ensure that a device cannot get data for some other
unique-id.

However, if the unique-id (or rather serial number etc) is implicit,
an rpc will work.  I'm ok with this approach.


> >> >>> (note: this seems
> >> >>> more secure to me - I like it)
> >> >>
> >> >> Hmm, I think it is less clear.  With an explicit list and actions, you
> >> >> can use NACM to do the access control.  With top-level RPCs, the
> >> >> implementation of the RPC has to do the access control.
> >> 
> >> Right, but it wouldn't be "access control" so much as something akin
> >> to a 404.  When establishing the RC connection, the server must first
> >> auth the client's cert (at the TLS-level) that, in the case of an 
> >> IDevID cert, most like maps to checking to see if it has a chain of
> >> trust to the vendor's CA cert.  Then cert-maps is used to extract a
> >> username; in the IDevID case, it is most likely some combo of the 
> >> serialNumber and hardwareModuleName attributes.  This username is 
> >> fed into the RPC handling logic which will do some internal lookup
> >> and either find a match (and return data) or not (and return an
> >> error).
> >> No need for NACM in this flow is there?
> >> 
> >>  
> >> > Also, a list of devices is more transparent - I mean, this list must
> >> > somehow exist anyway, but with top-level RPCs it will be hidden.
> >> 
> >> A list of devices needs to exist in the database, and the NBI, but
> >> not the SBI, right?
> >
> > The bootstrap server has one RC interface.  If it used for NB or SB
> > access doesn't really matter.  I was thinking that the list of devices
> > might be useful also for a "NB" client.
> 
> Yes, a list of devices is useful for the NB client, but I've always
> maintained that it comes from another YANG module.  Essentially, a
> YANG
> module for each type of user.  Yes, we could have an uber-module, but
> I fear that the NB-part would become too application-specific and thus
> not be easily standardized.  Or, as you implied before, an NB module 
> could augment a device-list defined by the SB module, but 1) I don't
> think an SB module should be designed with that in mind and 2) it 
> only works if both the NB and SB modules are implemented on the same
> RC server which, from our experience, for security reasons, is rarely
> the case.  We use distinct RC servers that are partitioned by port or
> machine, and at least half the times located in different data
> centers.

Ok.

> >> > Maybe implementations want to add additional objects to this list, for
> >> > monitoring or something.
> >> 
> >> Unsure.  The point of the SBI is that the device only receives a 
> >> device-specific response, no other objects are ever included, right?
> >
> > Sure; again I was thinking of objects for other clients.
> 
> Understood. See above.


/martin


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To: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, "netconf-bounces@ietf.org" <netconf-bounces@ietf.org>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>, Yangang <yangang@huawei.com>, "Zhuzhiguo (Zhuzhiguo, NSMP)" <zhuzhiguo@huawei.com>
Thread-Topic: two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>, Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
Cc: NETCONF <netconf@ietf.org>
References: <4b988ee4-3787-9616-bbd5-3de6b9f82f70@cisco.com> <a455da82-f39a-3e9c-2d75-01b0a2a92cb1@cisco.com> <2836cfe4-605c-a443-593b-6caaf05e0d9c@cisco.com> <34F148FF-F485-4717-AF5F-A69BE3A73BFB@gmail.com> <CABCOCHR0J0DTxp+4MGbiHaKgznjhbi3rhjLyevKf+99k9xhHCQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 13:40:23 +0200
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/mE6Zq1eKTUQMJYrMQ7Cjc59qRzM>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] AD review of draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05
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Andy,
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 6:24 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani 
> <mjethanandani@gmail.com <mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>>     On Oct 10, 2017, at 11:38 PM, Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com
>>     <mailto:bclaise@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     Dear all,
>>
>>     The comment below has not been discussed and I don't see any
>>     changes part of draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-06.
>>     However, I'm sending the document to IETF LC now, with a
>>     tentative IESG telechat date on Oct 26th.
>>     Please discuss (and resolve, if necessary) this comment.
>>
>>     Regards, Benoit
>>>     Dear all,
>>>
>>>     Investigating further, one more point.
>>>            3.2.2
>>>             <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#section-3.2.2>
>>>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#section-3.2.2>.
>>>             Access Rights
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         A small set of hard-wired datastore access rights is needed to
>>>         control access to all possible NETCONF protocol operations, including
>>>         vendor extensions to the standard protocol operation set.
>>>
>>>         The "CRUDX" model can support all NETCONF protocol operations:
>>>
>>>         o  Create: allows the client to add a new data node instance to a
>>>            datastore.
>>>
>>>         o  Read: allows the client to read a data node instance from a
>>>            datastore or receive the notification event type.
>>>
>>>         o  Update: allows the client to update an existing data node instance
>>>            in a datastore.
>>>
>>>         o  Delete: allows the client to delete a data node instance from a
>>>            datastore.
>>>
>>>         o  eXec: allows the client to execute the operation.
>>>
>>>
>>>     What is the link with RESTCONF?
>>>     I guess I don't understand (the idea behind) this section.
>
>     The section itself is a carryover from RFC 6536.
>
>
> How about just removing the 2 instances of the word "NETCONF"?
That works for me.
> Maybe it can be an instruction to the RFC Editor and fixed later.
The draft is right now in IETF LC (and on the IESG telechat on Oct 26th).
Let's see if we get some other feedback.

Regards, B.
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>     But I guess your question is whether the same access rights apply
>     to RESTCONF also, and if so where does it say that. Looking at RFC
>     8040, I see the following statements there.
>
>         Access control mechanisms are used to limit what CRUD operations can
>         be used.  In particular, RESTCONF is compatible with the NETCONF
>         Access Control Model (NACM) [RFC6536 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6536>], as there is a specific mapping
>         between RESTCONF and NETCONF operations.
>
>
>     Would it help to quote something similar here? Maybe something
>     like this:
>
>         RESTCONF is compatible with the NETCONF Access Control Model (NACM) defined in this draft and the
>
>         CRUDX operations used to enforce access control mechanisms, as there is a specific mapping between
>
>         RESTCONF and NETCONF operations.
>
>
>     Thanks
>
>>>
>>>     Regards, Benoit
>>>>     Dear all,
>>>>
>>>>     Here is my AD review for draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.
>>>>
>>>>     There are no YANG module dependencies to publish this document:
>>>>     https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules
>>>>     <https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules>[]=ietf-netconf-acm
>>>>     => select "Dependencies only"
>>>>     The YANG module validates correctly:
>>>>     https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.php?module=ietf-netconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang
>>>>     <https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.php?module=ietf-netconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang>
>>>>     No more issues:
>>>>     https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis
>>>>     <https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis>
>>>>     The diffs with RFC 6536 are minor.
>>>>     http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=https://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6536.txt&url2=https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.txt
>>>>     <http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=https://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6536.txt&url2=https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.txt>
>>>>
>>>>     Very good so far.
>>>>
>>>>     There are however two issues:
>>>>     - You should either remove NETCONF or add RESTCONF to the
>>>>     document title.
>>>>     - Update the Security Considerations based on the new template.
>>>>
>>>>     Editorial:
>>>>     This document thought of the NMDA/revised datastore
>>>>     architecture [I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores
>>>>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores>].
>>>>     After all, it's a normative reference ... just for the
>>>>     definition. However, I don't clearly see this message. Should
>>>>     we clearly mention that point in section 2.4 or section
>>>>     3.2/3.2.1. <http://3.2.1.>
>>>>     For example:
>>>>         The same access control rules apply to all datastores that support
>>>>         NACM, for example, the candidate configuration datastore or the
>>>>         running configuration datastore.
>>>>     NEW:
>>>>         The same access control rules apply to all datastores that support
>>>>         NACM, including the ones following the Network Management Datastore
>>>>         Architecture [I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores
>>>>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores>], for example ...
>>>>
>>>>     Regards, Benoit
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>     Netconf mailing list
>>>>     Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>>>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>>>     <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     Netconf mailing list
>>>     Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>>     <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Netconf mailing list
>>     Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>     <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf>
>
>     Mahesh Jethanandani
>     mjethanandani@gmail.com <mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Netconf mailing list
>     Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>     <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf>
>
>


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Andy,<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABCOCHR0J0DTxp+4MGbiHaKgznjhbi3rhjLyevKf+99k9xhHCQ@mail.gmail.com">
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        <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
          <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 6:24 PM,
            Mahesh Jethanandani <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a
                href="mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" target="_blank"
                moz-do-not-send="true">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <div style="word-wrap:break-word"><br>
                <div>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div>On Oct 10, 2017, at 11:38 PM, Benoit Claise
                      &lt;<a href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">bclaise@cisco.com</a>&gt;
                      wrote:</div>
                    <br
                      class="m_5382509814275514194Apple-interchange-newline">
                    <div>
                      <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
                        <div
                          class="m_5382509814275514194moz-cite-prefix">Dear
                          all,<br>
                          <br>
                          The comment below has not been discussed and I
                          don't see any changes part of
                          draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-<wbr>06.<br>
                          However, I'm sending the document to IETF LC
                          now, with a tentative IESG telechat date on
                          Oct 26th.<br>
                          Please discuss (and resolve, if necessary)
                          this comment.<br>
                          <br>
                          Regards, Benoit<br>
                        </div>
                        <blockquote type="cite">
                          <div
                            class="m_5382509814275514194moz-cite-prefix">Dear
                            all,<br>
                            <br>
                            Investigating further, one more point.<br>
                            <pre>      3.2.2
       <a class="m_5382509814275514194moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#section-3.2.2" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-<wbr>05#section-3.2.2&gt;</a>.
       Access Rights



   A small set of hard-wired datastore access rights is needed to
   control access to all possible NETCONF protocol operations, including
   vendor extensions to the standard protocol operation set.

   The "CRUDX" model can support all NETCONF protocol operations:

   o  Create: allows the client to add a new data node instance to a
      datastore.

   o  Read: allows the client to read a data node instance from a
      datastore or receive the notification event type.

   o  Update: allows the client to update an existing data node instance
      in a datastore.

   o  Delete: allows the client to delete a data node instance from a
      datastore.

   o  eXec: allows the client to execute the operation.


</pre>
                          </div>
                          What is the link with RESTCONF?<br>
                          I guess I don't understand (the idea behind)
                          this section.<br>
                        </blockquote>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  The section itself is a carryover from RFC 6536.Â </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>How about just removing the 2 instances of the word
              "NETCONF"?</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    That works for me.<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABCOCHR0J0DTxp+4MGbiHaKgznjhbi3rhjLyevKf+99k9xhHCQ@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div class="gmail_extra">
          <div class="gmail_quote">
            <div>Maybe it can be an instruction to the RFC Editor and
              fixed later.</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    The draft is right now in IETF LC (and on the IESG telechat on Oct
    26th).<br>
    Let's see if we get some other feedback.<br>
    <br>
    Regards, B.<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABCOCHR0J0DTxp+4MGbiHaKgznjhbi3rhjLyevKf+99k9xhHCQ@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div class="gmail_extra">
          <div class="gmail_quote">
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Andy</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <div style="word-wrap:break-word">
                <div>But I guess your question is whether the same
                  access rights apply to RESTCONF also, and if so where
                  does it say that. Looking at RFC 8040, I see the
                  following statements there.Â </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <pre class="m_5382509814275514194newpage" style="font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal">   Access control mechanisms are used to limit what CRUD operations can
   be used.  In particular, RESTCONF is compatible with the NETCONF
   Access Control Model (NACM) [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6536" title="&quot;Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF) Access Control Model&quot;" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">RFC6536</a>], as there is a specific mapping
   between RESTCONF and NETCONF operations.</pre>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <div>Would it help to quote something similar here?
                  Maybe something like this:</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <pre class="m_5382509814275514194newpage" style="font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal">   RESTCONF is compatible with the NETCONF Access Control Model (NACM) defined in this draft and theÂ </pre>
                  <pre class="m_5382509814275514194newpage" style="font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal">   CRUDX operations used to enforce access control mechanisms, as there is a specific mapping between</pre>
                  <pre class="m_5382509814275514194newpage" style="font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal">   RESTCONF and NETCONF operations.</pre>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <div>Thanks</div>
                <div><br>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div>
                      <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
                        <blockquote type="cite"> <br>
                          Regards, Benoit<br>
                          <blockquote type="cite">Dear all,<br>
                            <br>
                            Here is my AD review for
                            draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-<wbr>05.<br>
                            <br>
                            There are no YANG module dependencies to
                            publish this document:<br>
                            Â Â Â  <a
                              class="m_5382509814275514194moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.yangcatalog.org/<wbr>yang-search/impact_analysis.<wbr>php?modules</a>[]=ietf-netconf-acm
                            =&gt; select "Dependencies only"<br>
                            The YANG module validates correctly:<br>
                            Â Â Â  <a
                              class="m_5382509814275514194moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.php?module=ietf-netconf-acm@2017-09-13.yang"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.yangcatalog.org/<wbr>yang-search/module_details.<wbr>php?module=ietf-netconf-acm@<wbr>2017-09-13.yang</a><br>
                            No more issues:<br>
                            Â Â Â  <a
                              class="m_5382509814275514194moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis" target="_blank"
                              moz-do-not-send="true">https://github.com/netconf-wg/<wbr>rfc6536bis</a><br>
                            The diffs with RFC 6536 are minor.<br>
                            Â Â Â  <a
                              class="m_5382509814275514194moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=https://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6536.txt&amp;url2=https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05.txt"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff/<wbr>rfcdiff.pyht?url1=https://<wbr>tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6536.<wbr>txt&amp;url2=https://tools.ietf.<wbr>org/id/draft-ietf-netconf-<wbr>rfc6536bis-05.txt</a><br>
                            <br>
                            Very good so far.<br>
                            <br>
                            There are however two issues:<br>
                            - You should either remove NETCONF or add
                            RESTCONF to the document title.<br>
                            - Update the Security Considerations based
                            on the new template.<br>
                            <br>
                            Editorial:<br>
                            This document thought of the NMDA/revised
                            datastore architecture [<a
href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-<wbr>datastores</a>].
                            After all, it's a normative reference ...
                            just for the definition. However, I don't
                            clearly see this message. Should we clearly
                            mention that point in section 2.4 or section
                            3.2/<a href="http://3.2.1." target="_blank"
                              moz-do-not-send="true">3.2.1.</a> <br>
                            For example: <br>
                            <pre class="m_5382509814275514194newpage">   The same access control rules apply to all datastores that support
   NACM, for example, the candidate configuration datastore or the
   running configuration datastore.</pre>
                            NEW:<br>
                            <pre class="m_5382509814275514194newpage">   The same access control rules apply to all datastores that support
   NACM, including the ones following the Network Management Datastore
   Architecture [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-05#ref-I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-<wbr>datastores</a>], for example ... 

</pre>
                            Regards, Benoit<br>
                            <br>
                            <fieldset
                              class="m_5382509814275514194mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
                            <br>
                            <pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
Netconf mailing list
<a class="m_5382509814275514194moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Netconf@ietf.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Netconf@ietf.org</a>
<a class="m_5382509814275514194moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/netconf</a>
</pre>
                          </blockquote>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          <fieldset
                            class="m_5382509814275514194mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
                          <br>
                          <pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
Netconf mailing list
<a class="m_5382509814275514194moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Netconf@ietf.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Netconf@ietf.org</a>
<a class="m_5382509814275514194moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/netconf</a>
</pre>
                        </blockquote>
                        <br>
                      </div>
                      ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
                      Netconf mailing list<br>
                      <a href="mailto:Netconf@ietf.org" target="_blank"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">Netconf@ietf.org</a><br>
                      <a
                        href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/netconf</a><span
                        class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
                        </font></span></div>
                  </blockquote>
                </div>
                <span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
                    <div>
                      <div>Mahesh Jethanandani</div>
                      <div><a href="mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a></div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <br
                        class="m_5382509814275514194Apple-interchange-newline">
                    </div>
                    <br>
                  </font></span></div>
              <br>
              ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
              Netconf mailing list<br>
              <a href="mailto:Netconf@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">Netconf@ietf.org</a><br>
              <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf"
                rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/netconf</a><br>
              <br>
            </blockquote>
          </div>
          <br>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
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--_002_D85FFC1A190B4A0BB5E43779D1871FDDjunipernet_--


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, "kwatsen@juniper.net" <kwatsen@juniper.net>
CC: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Martin's thoughts on subscribed-notifications (was RE: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions)
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Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 19:15:11 +0000
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Subject: [Netconf] Martin's thoughts on subscribed-notifications (was RE: two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions)
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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "Zhengguangying (Walker)" <zhengguangying@huawei.com>, Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, "netconf-bounces@ietf.org" <netconf-bounces@ietf.org>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>, Yangang <yangang@huawei.com>, "Zhuzhiguo (Zhuzhiguo, NSMP)" <zhuzhiguo@huawei.com>
Thread-Topic: two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
Thread-Index: AQHTPVc6H1cFVYHXD0CVfgZrvSG+QqLd5dvwgAANzTCAAPwS0IACqP2AgACeonA=
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 20:40:56 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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From: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>
To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>,  "kwatsen@juniper.net" <kwatsen@juniper.net>
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Thread-Topic: Stream definition and encoding (was: RE: [Netconf] Martin's thoughts on subscribed-notifications (was RE: two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions))
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Subject: [Netconf] Stream definition and encoding (was: RE: Martin's thoughts on subscribed-notifications (was RE: two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions))
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From: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>
To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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From nobody Mon Oct 16 05:58:26 2017
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From: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Stream definition and encoding
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Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com> wrote:
> Martin, thank you for your thorough review comments, and Eric, thank you for your very thorough response! 
> 
> I have very little to add, just a few small additional comments items mostly regarding streams, inline, <ALEX>, with rest of the thread removed (for better legibility)
> --- Alex
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Voit
> > (evoit)
> > Sent: Friday, October 13, 2017 12:15 PM
> > To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>; kwatsen@juniper.net
> > Cc: netconf@ietf.org
> > Subject: [Netconf] Martin's thoughts on subscribed-notifications (was RE:
> > two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions)
> ...
> 
> > 
> > > The relationship to RFC 5277 is not clear.  This document provides a
> > > conflicting definition of streams.  Is this new definition supposed to
> > > replace the old one, or are both supposed to co-exist?  The stream
> > > mechanism in RFC 5277 works, is implemented in many systems, and is
> > > used quite a lot in real operations.  I object to replacing it with
> > > something new.  Specifically, the stream name should continue to be a
> > > string, not an identity, in order to contine to support dynamically created
> > streams.
> > 
> > The authors discussed this often.  We simply had not heard of 5277
> > implementations where streams are dynamically created after system
> > definition.  So we were waiting to see if someone actually used this capability
> > before we wanted to include support, as it creates more validation
> > complexity.
> > 
> > In other words, we are ok with moving to "string".   And the version available
> > Monday will do this now that we know the capability is actually used.
> > 
> 
> <ALEX> 
> As Eric mentioned, we can move to string.  That said, I still believe there are good reasons to have it as an identity.
> - It establishes a clear semantics as to what a stream means, as it is formally a part of the model.  If we use a string, we will need to have an additional conventions to define string names.  This means that we will need a new registry at IANA (to be maintained in addition to the YANG model), and rely on proper vendor documentation to define what proprietary string names mean.  In that sense it seems a little step backward also in  terms of interoperability.  
> - Introducing dynamic streams is possible also under the identity-based model.  In that case, the stream type becomes "custom", and (if needed) you could add an additional designator specifying further what "custom" means.

Since the identity is the key in the /streams/stream list, you cannot
augment a string to further specify what "custom" means.

> > >
> > > o  Section 2.1
> > >
> > >   The document adds a stream called SYSLOG, which:
> > >
> > >    mirrors the
> > >    discrete set entries which are concurrently being placed into a
> > >    device's local Syslog
> > >
> > >   I don't understand what this means, and it is not clear how the
> > >   syslog messages are to be transported in XML or JSON.
> > >
> > >   I suggest this stream is removed.
> >
> 
> 
>  <ALEX> Not sure why syslog messages would have to be transported in XML or JSON?  They could be transported in syslog protocol (RFC 5424).  

This is confusing.  I am talking about the "SYSLOG" stream, which is
can be subscribed to using NETCONF.  This is not the syslog protocol.

> Having a syslog stream would be a very different stream than a stream of notifications defined in YANG data models.  We are not specifically designing for such streams, but I don't see why we should prohibit them.  In fact, subscribed-notifications could serve as a subscription model for syslog messages as well, possibly augmented with syslog-specific filter constructs. 

Eric just wrote that the idea is that all messages transported on a
stream MUST be <notification> as defined in RFC 5277 for now, and when
the new notif-msg draft is done, MUST be a <notification> as defined
in that draft.


> Netconf and RESTCONF were designed mainly for configuration/fulfillment related applications.  We should not be limited to these here.  As we are moving towards service assurance, other transports and encodings may be more suitable, which we should allow to capture using the same subscription control model.  UDP-based streaming telemetry is another such example.  

Then you need to define this, i.e., at least define the extensibility
model, in this document.  The way it is currently written does not
handle this case.

> > >
> > >   This section contains some obvious and redundant text and examples,
> > >   but misses to explain some important concepts.  First of all, the
> > >   first paragraph doesn't really say anything and can be removed.
> > 
> > As an expert, you for sure know all this.   Others from the Network Element
> > development domain learning some of this for the first time seem to find the
> > intro text useful to help them understand.   If the WG wants this removed, I
> > can do so as it makes the document smaller (which is good).  But we do lose
> > something for newer readers.
> > 
> > >   Second, the example shows how to do an edit-config; this is not very
> > >   interesting, so I think it should be removed as well.
> > 
> > Same comment as above.  We know this.  But newer people to this might
> > find value.  Especially as it shows that even configured subscriptions
> > ultimately use NETCONF RPCs.    That said I wouldn't lose sleep if it is
> > dropped.
> > 
> 
> <ALEX>
> I agree it makes sense to keep this as context, specifically as users of this will include builders of service assurance related applications that may otherwise not have much focus on configuration; they just want to manage subscriptions.  
> </ALEX>

I don't mind examples, but they should examplify the new concepts
introduce in the document.  In this particular case they just show how
an <edit-config> is done.  And BTW, the example is not valid according
to the data model.

If you want some special examples directed to a certain target
audience, maybe you can do so in an Appendix, or even better a
separate document?



/martin


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
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From nobody Mon Oct 16 14:43:30 2017
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Subject: [Netconf] Milestones changed for netconf WG
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Deleted milestone "Submit Zero-touch Configuration Mechanism to AD/IESG for
consideration as Proposed Standard".

Deleted milestone "Submit System-level Keystore Mechanism to AD/IESG for
consideration as Proposed Standard".

Deleted milestone "Submit Server and Client Configuration Models for NETCONF
and RESTCONF to AD/IESG for consideration as Proposed Standard".

Deleted milestone "Submit Client and Server Models Configuration Models for
SSH and TLS to AD/IESG for consideration as Proposed Standard".

Deleted milestone "Submit Notification/Subscription Specifications to AD/IESG
for consideration as Proposed Standard".

Changed milestone "WGLC for Zero-touch Configuration Mechanism", set due date
to October 2017 from July 2017, added draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch to
milestone.

Changed milestone "Submit RFC 6536bis to AD/IESG for consideration as
Proposed Standard", resolved as "Telechat on Oct 26th", added
draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis to milestone.

Changed milestone "WGLC for advanced Notification/Subscription
Specifications", set due date to December 2017 from July 2017, added
draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications to milestone.

Changed milestone "WGLC for NETCONF and RESTCONF bis protocols", set due date
to December 2017 from November 2017, added draft-ietf-netconf-yang-library to
milestone.

Changed milestone "WGLC for System-level Keystore Mechanism", set due date to
January 2018 from July 2017, added draft-ietf-netconf-keystore to milestone.

Changed milestone "WGLC for Server and Client Configuration Models for
NETCONF and RESTCONF", set due date to January 2018 from July 2017, added
draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-server,
draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-client-server to milestone.

Changed milestone "WGLC for Client and Server Configuration Models for SSH
and TLS", set due date to January 2018 from July 2017, added
draft-ietf-netconf-tls-client-server, draft-ietf-netconf-ssh-client-server to
milestone.

URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/netconf/about/


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The IETF 100 Preliminary Agenda has been published; you can find it at =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/agenda.html =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/agenda.html>
NETCONF WG will be meeting on Thursday at 15:50 in Collyer=E2=80=99s =
Conf. Room.

If you'd like a slot to present some documents, please send a request to =
chairs at netconf-chairs@ietf.org. The draft should have been posted to =
the mailing list and discussed. Please indicate who will be presenting =
and how much time they will need.

The deadline for draft submission is UTC 23:59 on 2017-10-30 (Monday).


Mahesh & Kent




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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><p style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 12px; font-size: 14px; =
line-height: normal; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue'; color: rgb(50, 51, =
51); background-color: rgb(241, 241, 241);" class=3D"">The IETF 100 =
Preliminary Agenda has been published; you can find it at <a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/agenda.html" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: #0433ff" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/agenda.html</span></a>=
</p><p style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 12px; font-size: 14px; line-height: =
normal; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue'; color: rgb(50, 51, 51); =
background-color: rgb(241, 241, 241);" class=3D"">NETCONF WG will be =
meeting on Thursday at 15:50 in Collyer=E2=80=99s Conf. Room.</p><p =
style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 12px; font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; =
font-family: 'Helvetica Neue'; color: rgb(50, 51, 51); background-color: =
rgb(241, 241, 241);" class=3D"">If you'd like a slot to present some =
documents, please send a request to chairs at <a =
href=3D"mailto:netconf-chairs@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">netconf-chairs@ietf.org</a>. The draft should have been =
posted to the mailing list and discussed. Please indicate who will be =
presenting and how much time they will need.</p><p style=3D"margin: 0px =
0px 12px; font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Helvetica =
Neue'; color: rgb(50, 51, 51); background-color: rgb(241, 241, 241);" =
class=3D"">The deadline for draft submission is UTC 23:59 on 2017-10-30 =
(Monday).</p><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Mahesh &amp; Kent</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">

</div>

<br class=3D""></body></html>=

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From nobody Mon Oct 16 15:35:01 2017
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To: <hackathon@ietf.org>, SACM WG <sacm@ietf.org>, NETCONF WG <netconf@ietf.org>
CC: Adam Montville <adam.w.montville@gmail.com>, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Message-ID: <5a81d677-1b58-fab9-a2af-1299c7f2cf42@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 00:34:35 +0200
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Subject: [Netconf] Security Telemetry based on SACM Vulnerability Assessments and YANG Subscribed Notifications
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Hi all,

we would like to announce a Hackathon project that is based on the 
output created by the SACM and NETCONF WG at the Hackathon in Prague @ 
the IETF 99 meeting. The project is focused on providing security 
posture assessments based on the collection of fresh and trustworthy 
device characteristics.

Viele GrÃ¼ÃŸe,

Henk


Project Summary:

This Hackathon project is intended to provide a place for individuals 
interested in driving forward NETCONF WG Yang Push work in conjunction 
with SACM WG Continuous Monitoring work.

## Vulnerability Assessment

SACM has defined a vulnerability assessment (VA) scenario:

> https://trac.ietf.org/trac/sacm/wiki/SacmVulnerabilityAssessmentScenario

This project intends to advance the VA prototype created during the IETF 
99 Hackathon meeting as well as extend the capabilities of collecting 
and assessing endpoint attributes (device characteristics) in a secure 
and reliable fashion.

##  Event Streams and Orchestration via YANG Push & YANG Subscribed 
Notifications

The output of the last combined Hackathon project was:

> https://github.com/netconf-wg/yang-push/blob/master/IETF99_SACM-YANG-Push_Hackathon-Minutes.pdf
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-sacm-yang-content/

The corresponding goals in respect to YANG Push are to improve 
integration with the VA usage scenario and extend the implemented 
work-flow by introducing control-plane functions, such as orchestration, 
capability discovery, and target-endpoint discovery, as well as the 
appropriate distribution of imperative guidance for security posture 
collection (i.e. YANG filter expressions to SACM collectors).

Orchestration of control-plane functions as well as the secure 
distribution of security-related information is based on:

> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mile-xmpp-grid/


For more details see:

> https://github.com/sacmwg/vulnerability-scenario/tree/master/ietf_hackathon

Contributions to this project are orchestrated via:

> https://github.com/sacmwg/vulnerability-scenario/projects/2

Virtual Hackathon-Preparation meetings via WebEx are scheduled twice a week:

On Tuesday:> 
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sacm/B4Uo1nbTvzhHuBpHONUxFCObkTk/?qid=364e90e0bff4f0df3ca2fa86c698b711
> https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=me634ee1548b0df8c75ba7036dc7f05f1
> Meeting Number: 644 210 539
> Meeting Password: N93Bh5Th

and on Thursday:> 
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sacm/R_Lv5o3oZv0mqpGIEuqVu98BK8Y/?qid=364e90e0bff4f0df3ca2fa86c698b711> 
https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m0f5ac7b5c453298a56841f613796f81c> 
Meeting Number: 648 256 352
> Meeting Password: Vx7fcdxD

Everybody interested in our combined effort is - of course - welcome to 
chime in!


From nobody Tue Oct 17 02:29:46 2017
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From: lianji <lianji@huawei.com>
To: "andy@yumaworks.com" <andy@yumaworks.com>
CC: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>, "Zhengguangying (Walker)" <zhengguangying@huawei.com>, "Zhuzhiguo (Zhuzhiguo, NSMP)" <zhuzhiguo@huawei.com>, "Liubin (Nickylba)" <nickylba.liubin@huawei.com>, "Guopeipei (Peipei Guo)" <guopeipei@huawei.com>, "Yuanrongchao (NSMP)" <yuanrongchao@huawei.com>
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Hi, Andy,

I have two questions on Restconf. Could you please take a look and give som=
e comment? Thanks!

1 Should ietf-restconf module be implemented?
Rfc8040 says it's not meant to be implemented as datastore contents. Could =
a netconf user query ietf-restconf/operations via netconf? We can't support=
 it without implementing the module. What's your suggestion on if it should=
 be implemented by a system?

2 What's the scenario of get /restconf/operations ?
Rfc8040 says "Each resource is represented as an empty leaf with the name o=
f the RPC operation from the YANG 'rpc' statement ". As I understand that m=
eans a response to this request "get /restconf/operations" list all RPC act=
ions defined in all modules without parameters. Below is an example. If the=
 user want to call an operation, he/she has to get the module schema to und=
erstand what parameters should be provided. It looks the operations "get /r=
estconf/operations" doesn't help a lot. Or we should return all parameters =
together with the action name?

e.g.
{ 'ietf-system:system-restart' : [null] }



Thanks,

Anji
Huawei Tech.

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Hi, Andy,<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">I have two question=
s on Restconf. Could you please take a look and give some comment? Thanks!<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">1 Should ietf-restc=
onf module be implemented?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Rfc8040 says it&#82=
17;s not meant to be implemented as datastore contents. Could a netconf use=
r query ietf-restconf/operations via netconf? We can&#8217;t support it wit=
hout implementing the module. What&#8217;s your suggestion
 on if it should be implemented by a system? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">2 What&#8217;s the =
scenario of get /restconf/operations ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Rfc8040 says &#8220=
;Each resource is represented as an empty leaf with the name of the RPC ope=
ration from the YANG 'rpc' statement &#8220;. As I understand that means a =
response to this request &#8220;get /restconf/operations&#8221;
 list all RPC actions defined in all modules without parameters. Below is a=
n example. If the user want to call an operation, he/she has to get the mod=
ule schema to understand what parameters should be provided. It looks the o=
perations &#8220;get /restconf/operations&#8221;
 doesn&#8217;t help a lot. Or we should return all parameters together with=
 the action name?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">e.g. <o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">{ 'ietf-system:syst=
em-restart' : [null] }<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Thanks,<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Anji<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Huawei Tech.<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_244417CB9E0F1F4A8D41313D09799166FF97DFdggemm513mbxchina_--


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
CC: "kwatsen@juniper.net" <kwatsen@juniper.net>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Martin's thoughts on subscribed-notifications
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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 18:52:07 +0000
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References: <080999e6688f4af7944000a3e0da466d@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20171016.143934.2035456689893847607.mbj@tail-f.com> <b75c88d471e94650b63144dae86c0ebb@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20171017.115727.1078443907700792696.mbj@tail-f.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Martin's thoughts on subscribed-notifications
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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 17:21:32 -0700
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To: lianji <lianji@huawei.com>
Cc: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>, "Zhengguangying (Walker)" <zhengguangying@huawei.com>,  "Zhuzhiguo (Zhuzhiguo, NSMP)" <zhuzhiguo@huawei.com>, "Liubin (Nickylba)" <nickylba.liubin@huawei.com>,  "Guopeipei (Peipei Guo)" <guopeipei@huawei.com>, "Yuanrongchao (NSMP)" <yuanrongchao@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Two questions on Restconf
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On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 2:29 AM, lianji <lianji@huawei.com> wrote:

> Hi, Andy,
>
>
>
> I have two questions on Restconf. Could you please take a look and give
> some comment? Thanks!
>
>
>
> 1 Should ietf-restconf module be implemented?
>
> Rfc8040 says it=E2=80=99s not meant to be implemented as datastore conten=
ts. Could
> a netconf user query ietf-restconf/operations via netconf? We can=E2=80=
=99t support
> it without implementing the module. What=E2=80=99s your suggestion on if =
it should
> be implemented by a system?
>

NETCONF figures out the operations from modules and capabilities.
It is not exposed to clients via the NETCONF protocol.


>
>
> 2 What=E2=80=99s the scenario of get /restconf/operations ?
>
> Rfc8040 says =E2=80=9CEach resource is represented as an empty leaf with =
the name
> of the RPC operation from the YANG 'rpc' statement =E2=80=9C. As I unders=
tand that
> means a response to this request =E2=80=9Cget /restconf/operations=E2=80=
=9D list all RPC
> actions defined in all modules without parameters. Below is an example. I=
f
> the user want to call an operation, he/she has to get the module schema t=
o
> understand what parameters should be provided. It looks the operations =
=E2=80=9Cget
> /restconf/operations=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t help a lot. Or we should re=
turn all
> parameters together with the action name?
>
>
>
> e.g.
>
> { 'ietf-system:system-restart' : [null] }
>
>
>
>
>


this is correct -- no parameters.
The YANG module is used for that.



>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Anji
>
> Huawei Tech.
>


Andy

--001a11401a04d695a0055bc73858
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 2:29 AM, lianji <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:lianji@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">lianji@huawei.com</a>&gt;</=
span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"m_-6641624415200664776WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Hi, Andy,<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">I have two question=
s on Restconf. Could you please take a look and give some comment? Thanks!<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">1 Should ietf-restc=
onf module be implemented?
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Rfc8040 says it=E2=
=80=99s not meant to be implemented as datastore contents. Could a netconf =
user query ietf-restconf/operations via netconf? We can=E2=80=99t support i=
t without implementing the module. What=E2=80=99s your suggestion
 on if it should be implemented by a system?</span></p></div></div></blockq=
uote><div><br></div><div>NETCONF figures out the operations from modules an=
d capabilities.</div><div>It is not exposed to clients via the NETCONF prot=
ocol.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-=
US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3D"m_-6641624415200664776=
WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"> <u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">2 What=E2=80=99s th=
e scenario of get /restconf/operations ?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Rfc8040 says =E2=80=
=9CEach resource is represented as an empty leaf with the name of the RPC o=
peration from the YANG &#39;rpc&#39; statement =E2=80=9C. As I understand t=
hat means a response to this request =E2=80=9Cget /restconf/operations=E2=
=80=9D
 list all RPC actions defined in all modules without parameters. Below is a=
n example. If the user want to call an operation, he/she has to get the mod=
ule schema to understand what parameters should be provided. It looks the o=
perations =E2=80=9Cget /restconf/operations=E2=80=9D
 doesn=E2=80=99t help a lot. Or we should return all parameters together wi=
th the action name?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">e.g. <u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">{ &#39;ietf-system:=
system-restart&#39; : [null] }<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0</span=
></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>this is co=
rrect -- no parameters.</div><div>The YANG module is used for that.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"E=
N-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3D"m_-66416244152006647=
76WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Thanks,<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Anji<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Huawei Tech.<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_extra">Andy</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div></div>

--001a11401a04d695a0055bc73858--


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
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        Title           : YANG Data Model for a "Keystore" Mechanism
        Author          : Kent Watsen
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-keystore-03.txt
	Pages           : 28
	Date            : 2017-10-17

Abstract:
   This document defines a YANG module for a system-level mechanism,
   called a "keystore", containing security-sensitive data including
   private keys, pinned certificates, and pinned SSH host-keys.


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        Title           : Zero Touch Provisioning for NETCONF or RESTCONF based Management
        Authors         : Kent Watsen
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	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch-18.txt
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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-keystore-03.txt
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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 04:57:06 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/WCtH_J1WTmu3irjhHWH1fJL3KG4>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-keystore-03.txt
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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch-18.txt
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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" <timjenki@cisco.com>
CC: "kwatsen@juniper.net" <kwatsen@juniper.net>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Martin's thoughts on subscribed-notifications
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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 13:48:06 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Martin's thoughts on subscribed-notifications
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From: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" <timjenki@cisco.com>
To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>,  Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>
CC: "kwatsen@juniper.net" <kwatsen@juniper.net>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Martin's thoughts on subscribed-notifications
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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 14:08:18 +0000
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References: <b75c88d471e94650b63144dae86c0ebb@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20171017.115727.1078443907700792696.mbj@tail-f.com> <4541edddbd0741468298d7c83db84001@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20171018.105758.127713561892235408.mbj@tail-f.com> <3a4e050766034cb2b8d975e136bfca67@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Martin's thoughts on subscribed-notifications
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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch-18.txt
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From nobody Wed Oct 18 09:43:27 2017
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To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>,  Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" <timjenki@cisco.com>
CC: "kwatsen@juniper.net" <kwatsen@juniper.net>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
References: <b75c88d471e94650b63144dae86c0ebb@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20171017.115727.1078443907700792696.mbj@tail-f.com> <4541edddbd0741468298d7c83db84001@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20171018.105758.127713561892235408.mbj@tail-f.com> <3a4e050766034cb2b8d975e136bfca67@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com>
From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Martin's thoughts on subscribed-notifications
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Hello Martin & Eric, et al,

I would like to comment on the single topic quoted below:

On 10/18/2017 03:48 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
[...]
>>> (2) Size: A subscription id based on characters will be much larger
>>> than transport based on integer.
>>
>> True - if the encoding is binary.  Not necessarily true in XML and JSON.
> 
> There is a binary proposal for YANG subscriptions which may be posted today.  See Section 1.1:
> https://henkbirkholz.github.io/draft-birkholz-yang-push-coap-problemstatement/draft-birkholz-yang-push-coap-problemstatement.html
> 
> So this work is being extended by other WG into areas which demonstrates that this matters.
>
[...]
> Eric
> 
>>> For example, if the
>>> notification message contains an instance of a notification defined in
>>> YANG, then the top-level element is the name of the notification.â€
>>
>>
>>
>> /martin

If it does not violate a fundamental principle of YANG or would impact 
currently deployed implementations in an unfortunate way, why not just 
use a number when a number is to be conveyed, instead of using a string?

This would cater everyone that intends to use YANG modules in the 
constrained-node network space and at the same time it seems to have no 
drawbacks?


Viele GrÃ¼ÃŸe,

Henk


From nobody Wed Oct 18 10:15:38 2017
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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Hi,

I've not had a chance to review all of these drafts yet, but I did look 
at both: draft-voit-netconf-subscription-and-notif-overview-00 and 
draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages.

My high level comments are below:

It is unclear to me whether the plan is to publish 
subscription-and-notif-overview or not?Â  Having an overview document 
that binds the technologies together could be quite useful (in fact some 
of the background, and definitions could move to an overview draft, but 
I think that this intro draft could do with further work before going to 
WG LC.

The other question I had was relating to the ordering of this work. I 
understand the strong desire the get this work completed, but I do 
wonder whether the drafts would all be able to sit together more 
coherently if the work on draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages was 
completed first, then the other drafts could presumably more cleanly 
depend on the new notification message format.

Regarding the notification message format itself: I wasn't quite sure if 
there needs to be a split between a bundled and unbundled message, in 
that it seems that having a single message format might be easier, e.g. 
by always using the bundled message format.

But then I was also questioning that if the messages are being streamed 
(e.g. over TCP) then possibly you don't want to include all of the 
header information, in that it is presumably desirable to keep the 
streamed messages as compact as possible.Â  I think that there is 
probably a bit of the bigger picture that I'm still missing.

Thanks,
Rob


On 04/10/2017 22:24, Kent Watsen wrote:
> Weâ€™d like to direct the WG attention to the set of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions, with the goal of getting a pulse on if the WG thinks they are ready to progress now.
>   
> To enable you get an overview and to see how the documents relate to each other, this draft is a good place to start:  https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voit-netconf-subscription-and-notif-overview-00.
>   
> The drafts related to this review are:
>     -  draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications
>     -  draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push
>     -  draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications
>     -  draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif
>     -  draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages
>   
> While this is not an official WGLC, we will issue one if the response is positive. Please provide comments within two weeks.
>   
> Thanks,
> Mahesh and Kent
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "Robert Wilton -X (rwilton - ENSOFT LIMITED at Cisco)" <rwilton@cisco.com>,  Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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From: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>
To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, "Robert Wilton -X (rwilton - ENSOFT LIMITED at Cisco)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 20:35:52 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "netconf-chairs@ietf.org" <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, "Robert Wilton -X (rwilton - ENSOFT LIMITED at Cisco)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, "Alberto Gonzalez Prieto" <alberto.gonzalezprieto@yahoo.com>, "Einar Nilsen-Nygaard (einarnn)" <einarnn@cisco.com>, "Ambika Prasad Tripathy Tripathy (ambtripa)" <ambtripa@cisco.com>, "Zhengguangying (Walker) (zhengguangying@huawei.com)" <zhengguangying@huawei.com>
CC: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 01:12:08 +0000
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Subject: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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Thanks everyone who has commented on draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifica=
tions so far during the two week focused review.   I believe the changes di=
scussed on and agreed to on this list so far are embedded in a preliminary =
version of v06 which is located at:
https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/blob/master/draft-ietf-netconf-sub=
scribed-notifications-06.txt
(Many thanks to Martin.  I do need to triple check to see that I got all of=
 the agreements with Martin covered, but I think I did.)

This leaves the following, please let me know if I have missed anything or =
if you have something new:

(1) Source VRF or leafref to ietf-network-instance
https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/issues/5
Summary: to identify the source VRF, do we do (i) a leafref to the ietf-net=
work-instance model, or (ii) use the string data type for route distinguish=
er and route target as defined in draft-ietf-rtgwg-routing-types.
Recommendation (ii) as this will be far closer to what implementers will be=
 doing for the foreseeable future.  But I could live with (i) even though I=
 am not sure anyone is implementing it (which results in unnecessary vendor=
 augmentations), and it creates an unnecessary dependency on schema mount.

(2) Configured Subscriptions - Protocol, Encoding
https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/issues/4
Summary: Should the transport protocol and the encoding should be the same =
for all configured receivers of a single subscription?
Recommendation: encoding should stay the same for all receivers, but transp=
ort should be allow to vary be receiver.  Reasoning:  encoding is a publish=
er function, and unlikely to vary.  Transport is dependent somewhat on the =
receiver capabilities, and allowing variation here enables seamless increme=
ntal conversion of receivers and the ability to have the same configured su=
bscription-id available to correlate across receivers using different trans=
ports.

(3) Properly documenting the eventual move from 5277 one way notifications =
to subscribed-messages
https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/issues/3
Summary: I think that this issue is not a barrier to WGLC as the current dr=
aft removes any normative reference to the new notification-messages draft,=
 and acknowledges that we should update this document when notification-mes=
sages completes.

(4) Martin is also asking that a subscription identifier to be a string rat=
her than an integer.   While this is technically open between Martin & I, I=
 believe the case is very strong for integer  -- so much so that my belief =
is that  this need not be turned into a formal issue.  Look for others' opi=
nions on the alias and chime in.  If anyone else strongly feels "string" is=
 the right way to go, we can certainly create an issue to track.

Beyond that:

- There are other minor comments which are hopefully in their last stages w=
ith Martin
- There are comments of Martin's on this document which will drive some rev=
ised content into draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications. (Head's u=
p Alberto ;-)
- I plan on integrating Tim's suggestion that we have a separate receivers =
container for configured subscriptions.  As I am not hearing any issues fro=
m people (other than a little more complexity) I will add that in tomorrow.

Robert also has an umbrella question on the draft set dependency to notific=
ation-messages. (I.e., Not specific to this draft.)  As we have multiple kn=
own implementations of YANG push over NETCONF, it will be quite a while bef=
ore notification-messages solidifies, and we need to chunk this rather larg=
e set of work, I am hoping this too resolves quickly.

Thanks,
Eric


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks everyone who has commented on draft-ietf-netc=
onf-subscribed-notifications so far during the two week focused review.&nbs=
p;&nbsp; I believe the changes discussed on and agreed to on this list so f=
ar are embedded in a preliminary version of
 v06 which is located at:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/=
blob/master/draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-06.txt">https://git=
hub.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/blob/master/draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-not=
ifications-06.txt</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(Many thanks to Martin.&nbsp; I do need to triple ch=
eck to see that I got all of the agreements with Martin covered, but I thin=
k I did.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This leaves the following, please let me know if I h=
ave missed anything or if you have something new:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(1) Source VRF or leafref to ietf-network-instance<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/=
issues/5">https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/issues/5</a><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Summary: to identify the source VRF, do we do (i) a =
leafref to the ietf-network-instance model, or (ii) use the string data typ=
e for route distinguisher and route target as defined in draft-ietf-rtgwg-r=
outing-types.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Recommendation (ii) as this will be far closer to wh=
at implementers will be doing for the foreseeable future.&nbsp; But I could=
 live with (i) even though I am not sure anyone is implementing it (which r=
esults in unnecessary vendor augmentations),
 and it creates an unnecessary dependency on schema mount.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(2) Configured Subscriptions - Protocol, Encoding<o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/=
issues/4">https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/issues/4</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Summary: Should the transport protocol and the encod=
ing should be the same for all configured receivers of a single subscriptio=
n?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Recommendation: encoding should stay the same for al=
l receivers, but transport should be allow to vary be receiver.&nbsp; Reaso=
ning: &nbsp;encoding is a publisher function, and unlikely to vary.&nbsp; T=
ransport is dependent somewhat on the receiver capabilities,
 and allowing variation here enables seamless incremental conversion of rec=
eivers and the ability to have the same configured subscription-id availabl=
e to correlate across receivers using different transports.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(3) Properly documenting the eventual move from 5277=
 one way notifications to subscribed-messages<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/=
issues/3">https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/issues/3</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Summary: I think that this issue is not a barrier to=
 WGLC as the current draft removes any normative reference to the new notif=
ication-messages draft, and acknowledges that we should update this documen=
t when notification-messages completes.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(4) Martin is also asking that a subscription identi=
fier to be a string rather than an integer.&nbsp;&nbsp; While this is techn=
ically open between Martin &amp; I, I believe the case is very strong for i=
nteger&nbsp; -- so much so that my belief is that &nbsp;this
 need not be turned into a formal issue.&nbsp; Look for others&#8217; opini=
ons on the alias and chime in.&nbsp; If anyone else strongly feels &#8220;s=
tring&#8221; is the right way to go, we can certainly create an issue to tr=
ack.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Beyond that:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- There are other minor comments which are hopefully=
 in their last stages with Martin<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- There are comments of Martin&#8217;s on this docum=
ent which will drive some revised content into draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-e=
vent-notifications. (Head&#8217;s up Alberto ;-)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- I plan on integrating Tim&#8217;s suggestion that =
we have a separate receivers container for configured subscriptions.&nbsp; =
As I am not hearing any issues from people (other than a little more comple=
xity) I will add that in tomorrow.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Robert also has an umbrella question on the draft se=
t dependency to notification-messages. (I.e., Not specific to this draft.)&=
nbsp; As we have multiple known implementations of YANG push over NETCONF, =
it will be quite a while before notification-messages
 solidifies, and we need to chunk this rather large set of work, I am hopin=
g this too resolves quickly.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<br>
Eric<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_cb73cc6f3760425d93e587bddb1a44baXCHRTP013ciscocom_--


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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
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Thread-Topic: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Martin's thoughts on subscribed-notifications
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From nobody Thu Oct 19 00:33:47 2017
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To: evoit@cisco.com
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From: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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Hi,

"Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
> (4) Martin is also asking that a subscription identifier to be a
> string rather than an integer.  While this is technically open between
> Martin & I, I believe the case is very strong for integer -- so much
> so that my belief is that this need not be turned into a formal issue.
> Look for others' opinions on the alias and chime in.  If anyone else
> strongly feels "string" is the right way to go, we can certainly
> create an issue to track.

My point is that for configured list items that don't have a "natural"
key (ip addres or whatever), in YANG we normally use a key "name" of
type "string".  The idea is that strings are easier to work with and
more flexible as identifiers in the configuration.  It is easier to
work with a subscription called "critical-to-noc", than "37".


/martin




From nobody Thu Oct 19 00:42:39 2017
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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 09:28:33AM +0200, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
> > (4) Martin is also asking that a subscription identifier to be a
> > string rather than an integer.  While this is technically open between
> > Martin & I, I believe the case is very strong for integer -- so much
> > so that my belief is that this need not be turned into a formal issue.
> > Look for others' opinions on the alias and chime in.  If anyone else
> > strongly feels "string" is the right way to go, we can certainly
> > create an issue to track.
> 
> My point is that for configured list items that don't have a "natural"
> key (ip addres or whatever), in YANG we normally use a key "name" of
> type "string".  The idea is that strings are easier to work with and
> more flexible as identifiers in the configuration.  It is easier to
> work with a subscription called "critical-to-noc", than "37".

I agree with Martin and note that you can use the string "37" or "a"
as well if you need short and difficult to memorize identifiers.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


From nobody Thu Oct 19 02:09:10 2017
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To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
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From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-keystore-03.txt
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Dear all,

The ietf-keystore YANG module is imported by many YANG modules at the IETF.
This new version implies that most YANG modules must be updated.
Look at all the dependent YANG modules with a red circle (= COMPILATION 
FAILED)
https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules[]=ietf-keystore&recurse=10&rfcs=1&show_subm=1&show_dir=dependents

You're in the cc list because your dependent YANG modules fail 
COMPILATION and must now be updated.

Regards, Benoit
> Please ignore.  This draft was posted primarily to resolve a YANG validation error from the zerotouch draft submission.  This draft is still being updated to reflect the last call comments from before.
>
> Kent // contributor
>
> --
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.
>
>          Title           : YANG Data Model for a "Keystore" Mechanism
>          Author          : Kent Watsen
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-keystore-03.txt
> 	Pages           : 28
> 	Date            : 2017-10-17
>
> Abstract:
>     This document defines a YANG module for a system-level mechanism,
>     called a "keystore", containing security-sensitive data including
>     private keys, pinned certificates, and pinned SSH host-keys.
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dnetconf-2Dkeystore_&d=DwICAg&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=tfp6AyxoWTemrxU6f-cwJY9lOBMFs-K_WDwG0oJuTgc&s=spWgrT7jrb11weoPy-ObarYaogzUpo6U0BtCL34Bl4g&e=
>
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dnetconf-2Dkeystore-2D03&d=DwICAg&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=tfp6AyxoWTemrxU6f-cwJY9lOBMFs-K_WDwG0oJuTgc&s=zIbPZU5DVPtp6dDHdHqH2iOpjzohS3W6GW-Ps71U40Y&e=
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dnetconf-2Dkeystore-2D03&d=DwICAg&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=tfp6AyxoWTemrxU6f-cwJY9lOBMFs-K_WDwG0oJuTgc&s=FmuuoRqQm__WCTMN1FNg1hSek3Z2sVwti92itTE2Vz4&e=
>
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_rfcdiff-3Furl2-3Ddraft-2Dietf-2Dnetconf-2Dkeystore-2D03&d=DwICAg&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=tfp6AyxoWTemrxU6f-cwJY9lOBMFs-K_WDwG0oJuTgc&s=Vvpfx-IwdxxOWKc_kjWhDdyTzPTHeAo-3ew0BDuSjcE&e=
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=ftp-3A__ftp.ietf.org_internet-2Ddrafts_&d=DwICAg&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=tfp6AyxoWTemrxU6f-cwJY9lOBMFs-K_WDwG0oJuTgc&s=9hDHJDd64Wqime4O5ycbrGrV82J9FtPzb5H7GVkTCo8&e=
>
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_netconf&d=DwICAg&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=tfp6AyxoWTemrxU6f-cwJY9lOBMFs-K_WDwG0oJuTgc&s=HTWozXyPUmVmUwveU1iPqlYczuDCeLBXA8MW5g_FUy8&e=
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> .
>


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From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 10:48:15 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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On 19/10/2017 08:28, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Hi,
>
> "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
>> (4) Martin is also asking that a subscription identifier to be a
>> string rather than an integer.  While this is technically open between
>> Martin & I, I believe the case is very strong for integer -- so much
>> so that my belief is that this need not be turned into a formal issue.
>> Look for others' opinions on the alias and chime in.  If anyone else
>> strongly feels "string" is the right way to go, we can certainly
>> create an issue to track.
> My point is that for configured list items that don't have a "natural"
> key (ip addres or whatever), in YANG we normally use a key "name" of
> type "string".  The idea is that strings are easier to work with and
> more flexible as identifiers in the configuration.  It is easier to
> work with a subscription called "critical-to-noc", than "37".
If the subscription id is configured by a client, then generally a 
string seems like a more friendly choice.Â  E.g. as a point of comparison 
I note that the ACL YANG model is using names to identify ACLs rather 
than numerical ids ...

If the subscription id is being generated by a computer (e.g. the 
device) then a numerical id is better, since it is easy to generate the 
next new one.

For encoding purposes, with XML or JSON, whether it is a string or a 
number doesn't seem to make any real difference.Â  But if the 
subscription uses a binary encoding (e.g. CBOR) then a numerical field 
is likely to be more compact.

If the same subscription id is used for both the configured list and 
operational list then I think that I would prefer a string, where part 
of the value space is reserved for device assigned ids, e.g. "all device 
subscriptions use a string format like "svr-<number>".

But I actually wonder whether the solution here shouldn't be to have 
different indexes for the configured vs operational list of subscriptions:

E.g.
- the subscription configuration uses an arbitrary string name, but gets 
allocated an internal numerical subscription id (which is available in 
<operational>).
- the internal subscriptions are indexed by a system assigned numerical id.
- notifications always include the system assigned numeric id (for 
compactness).
 Â - notifications could also include the configured name.Â  This could be 
controlled via a config leaf in a configured subscription.Â  Or when 
establishing a subscription via RPC it might be useful if the client 
could also provide a string name/description of the subscription (which 
again could be included/not included in the notifications via a boolean 
input parameter).

Thanks,
Rob


>
>
> /martin
>
>
>
> .
>


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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 13:11:31 +0200
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc: netconf@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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Sure, why not make things complex to save a few bytes occasionally.

/js

On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 10:48:15AM +0100, Robert Wilton wrote:
> 
> 
> On 19/10/2017 08:28, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > (4) Martin is also asking that a subscription identifier to be a
> > > string rather than an integer.  While this is technically open between
> > > Martin & I, I believe the case is very strong for integer -- so much
> > > so that my belief is that this need not be turned into a formal issue.
> > > Look for others' opinions on the alias and chime in.  If anyone else
> > > strongly feels "string" is the right way to go, we can certainly
> > > create an issue to track.
> > My point is that for configured list items that don't have a "natural"
> > key (ip addres or whatever), in YANG we normally use a key "name" of
> > type "string".  The idea is that strings are easier to work with and
> > more flexible as identifiers in the configuration.  It is easier to
> > work with a subscription called "critical-to-noc", than "37".
> If the subscription id is configured by a client, then generally a string
> seems like a more friendly choice.  E.g. as a point of comparison I note
> that the ACL YANG model is using names to identify ACLs rather than
> numerical ids ...
> 
> If the subscription id is being generated by a computer (e.g. the device)
> then a numerical id is better, since it is easy to generate the next new
> one.
> 
> For encoding purposes, with XML or JSON, whether it is a string or a number
> doesn't seem to make any real difference.  But if the subscription uses a
> binary encoding (e.g. CBOR) then a numerical field is likely to be more
> compact.
> 
> If the same subscription id is used for both the configured list and
> operational list then I think that I would prefer a string, where part of
> the value space is reserved for device assigned ids, e.g. "all device
> subscriptions use a string format like "svr-<number>".
> 
> But I actually wonder whether the solution here shouldn't be to have
> different indexes for the configured vs operational list of subscriptions:
> 
> E.g.
> - the subscription configuration uses an arbitrary string name, but gets
> allocated an internal numerical subscription id (which is available in
> <operational>).
> - the internal subscriptions are indexed by a system assigned numerical id.
> - notifications always include the system assigned numeric id (for
> compactness).
>  - notifications could also include the configured name.  This could be
> controlled via a config leaf in a configured subscription.  Or when
> establishing a subscription via RPC it might be useful if the client could
> also provide a string name/description of the subscription (which again
> could be included/not included in the notifications via a boolean input
> parameter).
> 
> Thanks,
> Rob
> 
> 
> > 
> > 
> > /martin
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > .
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "Robert Wilton -X (rwilton - ENSOFT LIMITED at Cisco)" <rwilton@cisco.com>,  Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, "alexander.clemm@huawei.com" <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>
CC: "netconf-chairs@ietf.org" <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>, "alberto.gonzalezprieto@yahoo.com" <alberto.gonzalezprieto@yahoo.com>, "Einar Nilsen-Nygaard (einarnn)" <einarnn@cisco.com>, "Ambika Prasad Tripathy Tripathy (ambtripa)" <ambtripa@cisco.com>, "zhengguangying@huawei.com" <zhengguangying@huawei.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 11:58:51 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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To: netconf@ietf.org
References: <cb73cc6f3760425d93e587bddb1a44ba@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20171019.092833.569972855525517012.mbj@tail-f.com> <e5e526f2-4a96-f6b5-9c62-3882091f3ef1@cisco.com> <20171019111131.hfkjj7exxqe4npjk@elstar.local>
From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 13:01:19 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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On 19/10/2017 12:11, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> Sure, why not make things complex to save a few bytes occasionally.
I'm not particularly familiar with IOT devices, but my understanding is 
that it is desirable to minimize bandwidth (and frequency of messages) 
as much as possible to reduce power usage.

Similarly, for high end routers, customers have a desire to get as much 
telemetry information off the device as possible with minimum of 
latency.Â  E.g. send us everything you have and we will figure it with 
the information is important or can just be discarded.Â  And by 
everything, I think that ideally they would like to see every change to 
any data node in the operational datastore ...

I don't know if YANG Push is intended to be IETF's solution to telemetry 
- I think that it could/should be, but I think that the efficiency of 
encoding the notifications is important for it to compete with say gNMI 
(draft-openconfig-rtgwg-gnmi-spec-00), so the additional complexity may 
be worth it ...

Thanks,
Rob


>
> /js
>
> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 10:48:15AM +0100, Robert Wilton wrote:
>>
>> On 19/10/2017 08:28, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>> (4) Martin is also asking that a subscription identifier to be a
>>>> string rather than an integer.  While this is technically open between
>>>> Martin & I, I believe the case is very strong for integer -- so much
>>>> so that my belief is that this need not be turned into a formal issue.
>>>> Look for others' opinions on the alias and chime in.  If anyone else
>>>> strongly feels "string" is the right way to go, we can certainly
>>>> create an issue to track.
>>> My point is that for configured list items that don't have a "natural"
>>> key (ip addres or whatever), in YANG we normally use a key "name" of
>>> type "string".  The idea is that strings are easier to work with and
>>> more flexible as identifiers in the configuration.  It is easier to
>>> work with a subscription called "critical-to-noc", than "37".
>> If the subscription id is configured by a client, then generally a string
>> seems like a more friendly choice.Â  E.g. as a point of comparison I note
>> that the ACL YANG model is using names to identify ACLs rather than
>> numerical ids ...
>>
>> If the subscription id is being generated by a computer (e.g. the device)
>> then a numerical id is better, since it is easy to generate the next new
>> one.
>>
>> For encoding purposes, with XML or JSON, whether it is a string or a number
>> doesn't seem to make any real difference.Â  But if the subscription uses a
>> binary encoding (e.g. CBOR) then a numerical field is likely to be more
>> compact.
>>
>> If the same subscription id is used for both the configured list and
>> operational list then I think that I would prefer a string, where part of
>> the value space is reserved for device assigned ids, e.g. "all device
>> subscriptions use a string format like "svr-<number>".
>>
>> But I actually wonder whether the solution here shouldn't be to have
>> different indexes for the configured vs operational list of subscriptions:
>>
>> E.g.
>> - the subscription configuration uses an arbitrary string name, but gets
>> allocated an internal numerical subscription id (which is available in
>> <operational>).
>> - the internal subscriptions are indexed by a system assigned numerical id.
>> - notifications always include the system assigned numeric id (for
>> compactness).
>>  Â - notifications could also include the configured name.Â  This could be
>> controlled via a config leaf in a configured subscription.Â  Or when
>> establishing a subscription via RPC it might be useful if the client could
>> also provide a string name/description of the subscription (which again
>> could be included/not included in the notifications via a boolean input
>> parameter).
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Rob
>>
>>
>>>
>>> /martin
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Netconf mailing list
>> Netconf@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 14:05:12 +0200
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
Cc: netconf@ietf.org
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References: <cb73cc6f3760425d93e587bddb1a44ba@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20171019.092833.569972855525517012.mbj@tail-f.com> <e5e526f2-4a96-f6b5-9c62-3882091f3ef1@cisco.com> <20171019111131.hfkjj7exxqe4npjk@elstar.local> <7dde4013-44ac-c188-e0a8-abaf7d2461c9@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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If you can prove that it actually makes a difference at the system
level.

/js

On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 01:01:19PM +0100, Robert Wilton wrote:
> 
> 
> On 19/10/2017 12:11, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> > Sure, why not make things complex to save a few bytes occasionally.
> I'm not particularly familiar with IOT devices, but my understanding is that
> it is desirable to minimize bandwidth (and frequency of messages) as much as
> possible to reduce power usage.
> 
> Similarly, for high end routers, customers have a desire to get as much
> telemetry information off the device as possible with minimum of latency. 
> E.g. send us everything you have and we will figure it with the information
> is important or can just be discarded.  And by everything, I think that
> ideally they would like to see every change to any data node in the
> operational datastore ...
> 
> I don't know if YANG Push is intended to be IETF's solution to telemetry - I
> think that it could/should be, but I think that the efficiency of encoding
> the notifications is important for it to compete with say gNMI
> (draft-openconfig-rtgwg-gnmi-spec-00), so the additional complexity may be
> worth it ...
> 
> Thanks,
> Rob
> 
> 
> > 
> > /js
> > 
> > On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 10:48:15AM +0100, Robert Wilton wrote:
> > > 
> > > On 19/10/2017 08:28, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> > > > Hi,
> > > > 
> > > > "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > > > (4) Martin is also asking that a subscription identifier to be a
> > > > > string rather than an integer.  While this is technically open between
> > > > > Martin & I, I believe the case is very strong for integer -- so much
> > > > > so that my belief is that this need not be turned into a formal issue.
> > > > > Look for others' opinions on the alias and chime in.  If anyone else
> > > > > strongly feels "string" is the right way to go, we can certainly
> > > > > create an issue to track.
> > > > My point is that for configured list items that don't have a "natural"
> > > > key (ip addres or whatever), in YANG we normally use a key "name" of
> > > > type "string".  The idea is that strings are easier to work with and
> > > > more flexible as identifiers in the configuration.  It is easier to
> > > > work with a subscription called "critical-to-noc", than "37".
> > > If the subscription id is configured by a client, then generally a string
> > > seems like a more friendly choice.  E.g. as a point of comparison I note
> > > that the ACL YANG model is using names to identify ACLs rather than
> > > numerical ids ...
> > > 
> > > If the subscription id is being generated by a computer (e.g. the device)
> > > then a numerical id is better, since it is easy to generate the next new
> > > one.
> > > 
> > > For encoding purposes, with XML or JSON, whether it is a string or a number
> > > doesn't seem to make any real difference.  But if the subscription uses a
> > > binary encoding (e.g. CBOR) then a numerical field is likely to be more
> > > compact.
> > > 
> > > If the same subscription id is used for both the configured list and
> > > operational list then I think that I would prefer a string, where part of
> > > the value space is reserved for device assigned ids, e.g. "all device
> > > subscriptions use a string format like "svr-<number>".
> > > 
> > > But I actually wonder whether the solution here shouldn't be to have
> > > different indexes for the configured vs operational list of subscriptions:
> > > 
> > > E.g.
> > > - the subscription configuration uses an arbitrary string name, but gets
> > > allocated an internal numerical subscription id (which is available in
> > > <operational>).
> > > - the internal subscriptions are indexed by a system assigned numerical id.
> > > - notifications always include the system assigned numeric id (for
> > > compactness).
> > >   - notifications could also include the configured name.  This could be
> > > controlled via a config leaf in a configured subscription.  Or when
> > > establishing a subscription via RPC it might be useful if the client could
> > > also provide a string name/description of the subscription (which again
> > > could be included/not included in the notifications via a boolean input
> > > parameter).
> > > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > Rob
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > /martin
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > .
> > > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Netconf mailing list
> > > Netconf@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


From nobody Thu Oct 19 05:07:03 2017
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From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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For me this is a very interesting discussion, because we will have many =
instances of this type of issue in the future.

Netconf and YANG are fundamentally XML technologies, and the XML roots =
shine through at every bend.  There is some optimism that YANG can be =
used at a level of resource availability (=E2=80=9Cconstrained nodes=E2=80=
=9D) where XML would have been a problem.  There are some issues that =
basing the YANG semantics based on the XML serialization cause for type =
choices; we think we have them mostly under control for yang-cbor.

Now how do we get the simpler type (unsigned int) for internal elements =
of the protocol mechanics?  I=E2=80=99m not sure this cannot simply be =
solved by a type choice between text string and uint; an XML based =
implementation will be none the wiser and a CBOR implementation can do =
the right thing.

This keeps the complexity confined to where the actual benefit is, which =
would generally make this designer happy.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


> On Oct 19, 2017, at 13:11, Juergen Schoenwaelder =
<j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>=20
> Sure, why not make things complex to save a few bytes occasionally.
>=20
> /js
>=20
> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 10:48:15AM +0100, Robert Wilton wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 19/10/2017 08:28, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>=20
>>> "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>> (4) Martin is also asking that a subscription identifier to be a
>>>> string rather than an integer.  While this is technically open =
between
>>>> Martin & I, I believe the case is very strong for integer -- so =
much
>>>> so that my belief is that this need not be turned into a formal =
issue.
>>>> Look for others' opinions on the alias and chime in.  If anyone =
else
>>>> strongly feels "string" is the right way to go, we can certainly
>>>> create an issue to track.
>>> My point is that for configured list items that don't have a =
"natural"
>>> key (ip addres or whatever), in YANG we normally use a key "name" of
>>> type "string".  The idea is that strings are easier to work with and
>>> more flexible as identifiers in the configuration.  It is easier to
>>> work with a subscription called "critical-to-noc", than "37".
>> If the subscription id is configured by a client, then generally a =
string
>> seems like a more friendly choice.  E.g. as a point of comparison I =
note
>> that the ACL YANG model is using names to identify ACLs rather than
>> numerical ids ...
>>=20
>> If the subscription id is being generated by a computer (e.g. the =
device)
>> then a numerical id is better, since it is easy to generate the next =
new
>> one.
>>=20
>> For encoding purposes, with XML or JSON, whether it is a string or a =
number
>> doesn't seem to make any real difference.  But if the subscription =
uses a
>> binary encoding (e.g. CBOR) then a numerical field is likely to be =
more
>> compact.
>>=20
>> If the same subscription id is used for both the configured list and
>> operational list then I think that I would prefer a string, where =
part of
>> the value space is reserved for device assigned ids, e.g. "all device
>> subscriptions use a string format like "svr-<number>".
>>=20
>> But I actually wonder whether the solution here shouldn't be to have
>> different indexes for the configured vs operational list of =
subscriptions:
>>=20
>> E.g.
>> - the subscription configuration uses an arbitrary string name, but =
gets
>> allocated an internal numerical subscription id (which is available =
in
>> <operational>).
>> - the internal subscriptions are indexed by a system assigned =
numerical id.
>> - notifications always include the system assigned numeric id (for
>> compactness).
>>  - notifications could also include the configured name.  This could =
be
>> controlled via a config leaf in a configured subscription.  Or when
>> establishing a subscription via RPC it might be useful if the client =
could
>> also provide a string name/description of the subscription (which =
again
>> could be included/not included in the notifications via a boolean =
input
>> parameter).
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>> Rob
>>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> /martin
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> .
>>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Netconf mailing list
>> Netconf@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>=20
> --=20
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>=20
>=20


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "Robert Wilton -X (rwilton - ENSOFT LIMITED at Cisco)" <rwilton@cisco.com>,  "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
CC: "netconf-chairs@ietf.org" <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>, "Robert Wilton -X (rwilton - ENSOFT LIMITED at Cisco)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, "alexander.clemm@huawei.com" <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, "alberto.gonzalezprieto@yahoo.com" <alberto.gonzalezprieto@yahoo.com>, "Einar Nilsen-Nygaard (einarnn)" <einarnn@cisco.com>, "Ambika Prasad Tripathy Tripathy (ambtripa)" <ambtripa@cisco.com>, "zhengguangying@huawei.com" <zhengguangying@huawei.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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Hi Martin,

> From: Martin Bjorklund, October 19, 2017 3:29 AM
>
> Hi,
>=20
> "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
> > (4) Martin is also asking that a subscription identifier to be a
> > string rather than an integer.  While this is technically open between
> > Martin & I, I believe the case is very strong for integer -- so much
> > so that my belief is that this need not be turned into a formal issue.
> > Look for others' opinions on the alias and chime in.  If anyone else
> > strongly feels "string" is the right way to go, we can certainly
> > create an issue to track.
>=20
> My point is that for configured list items that don't have a "natural"
> key (ip addres or whatever), in YANG we normally use a key "name" of type
> "string".  The idea is that strings are easier to work with and more flex=
ible as
> identifiers in the configuration.  It is easier to work with a subscripti=
on called
> "critical-to-noc", than "37".

As the discussion in growing wider with IoT.   I have added it as:
https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/issues/6=20

I maintain that it is far more important to optimize for speed and size of =
notification messages.  (See Carsten's email.)   Plus there is no reason th=
at people cannot augment the model with a more human readable string if one=
 is desired for configured subscriptions.

Eric

> /martin
>=20
>=20


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "Martin Bjorklund" <mbj@tail-f.com>
CC: "netconf-chairs@ietf.org" <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>, "zhengguangying@huawei.com" <zhengguangying@huawei.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>, "alberto.gonzalezprieto@yahoo.com" <alberto.gonzalezprieto@yahoo.com>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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Hi Juergen,

> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, October 19, 2017 3:40 AM
>=20
> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 09:28:33AM +0200, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > (4) Martin is also asking that a subscription identifier to be a
> > > string rather than an integer.  While this is technically open
> > > between Martin & I, I believe the case is very strong for integer --
> > > so much so that my belief is that this need not be turned into a form=
al
> issue.
> > > Look for others' opinions on the alias and chime in.  If anyone else
> > > strongly feels "string" is the right way to go, we can certainly
> > > create an issue to track.
> >
> > My point is that for configured list items that don't have a "natural"
> > key (ip addres or whatever), in YANG we normally use a key "name" of
> > type "string".  The idea is that strings are easier to work with and
> > more flexible as identifiers in the configuration.  It is easier to
> > work with a subscription called "critical-to-noc", than "37".
>=20
> I agree with Martin and note that you can use the string "37" or "a"
> as well if you need short and difficult to memorize identifiers.

What do you think of adding a string leaf which is a description for a conf=
igured description?

That would allow an even more robust documentation of the configured subscr=
iptions purpose, but still allow for maximum efficiency in transport.

Eric

> /js
>=20
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


From nobody Thu Oct 19 06:29:17 2017
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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"Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
> Hi Martin,
> 
> > From: Martin Bjorklund, October 19, 2017 3:29 AM
> >
> > Hi,
> > 
> > "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > (4) Martin is also asking that a subscription identifier to be a
> > > string rather than an integer.  While this is technically open between
> > > Martin & I, I believe the case is very strong for integer -- so much
> > > so that my belief is that this need not be turned into a formal issue.
> > > Look for others' opinions on the alias and chime in.  If anyone else
> > > strongly feels "string" is the right way to go, we can certainly
> > > create an issue to track.
> > 
> > My point is that for configured list items that don't have a "natural"
> > key (ip addres or whatever), in YANG we normally use a key "name" of
> > type
> > "string".  The idea is that strings are easier to work with and more
> > flexible as
> > identifiers in the configuration.  It is easier to work with a
> > subscription called
> > "critical-to-noc", than "37".
> 
> As the discussion in growing wider with IoT.   I have added it as:
> https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/issues/6 
> 
> I maintain that it is far more important to optimize for speed and
> size of notification messages.  (See Carsten's email.)  Plus there is
> no reason that people cannot augment the model with a more human
> readable string if one is desired for configured subscriptions.

You cannot change the key via augmentation, so even if you augment a
leaf of type string, the client still have to provide the integer.


/martin


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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-client-server@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-client-server@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-server@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-server@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-pce-pcep-yang@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-pce-pcep-yang@ietf.org>, "draft-lee-teas-actn-vn-yang@ietf.org" <draft-lee-teas-actn-vn-yang@ietf.org>, "draft-lee-teas-actn-pm-telemetry-autonomics@ietf.org" <draft-lee-teas-actn-pm-telemetry-autonomics@ietf.org>, "draft-lee-teas-te-service-mapping-yang@ietf.org" <draft-lee-teas-te-service-mapping-yang@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-keystore-03.txt
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 13:30:19 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-keystore-03.txt
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To: j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de
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From: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> If you can prove that it actually makes a difference at the system
> level.

Right.  And the "performance hit" would be at the *receiver*, which
probably is not a constrained device.


/martin



> =

> /js
> =

> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 01:01:19PM +0100, Robert Wilton wrote:
> > =

> > =

> > On 19/10/2017 12:11, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> > > Sure, why not make things complex to save a few bytes occasionall=
y.
> > I'm not particularly familiar with IOT devices, but my understandin=
g is that
> > it is desirable to minimize bandwidth (and frequency of messages) a=
s much as
> > possible to reduce power usage.
> > =

> > Similarly, for high end routers, customers have a desire to get as =
much
> > telemetry information off the device as possible with minimum of la=
tency.=A0
> > E.g. send us everything you have and we will figure it with the inf=
ormation
> > is important or can just be discarded.=A0 And by everything, I thin=
k that
> > ideally they would like to see every change to any data node in the=

> > operational datastore ...
> > =

> > I don't know if YANG Push is intended to be IETF's solution to tele=
metry - I
> > think that it could/should be, but I think that the efficiency of e=
ncoding
> > the notifications is important for it to compete with say gNMI
> > (draft-openconfig-rtgwg-gnmi-spec-00), so the additional complexity=
 may be
> > worth it ...
> > =

> > Thanks,
> > Rob
> > =

> > =

> > > =

> > > /js
> > > =

> > > On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 10:48:15AM +0100, Robert Wilton wrote:
> > > > =

> > > > On 19/10/2017 08:28, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > > =

> > > > > "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > > > > (4) Martin is also asking that a subscription identifier to=
 be a
> > > > > > string rather than an integer.  While this is technically o=
pen between
> > > > > > Martin & I, I believe the case is very strong for integer -=
- so much
> > > > > > so that my belief is that this need not be turned into a fo=
rmal issue.
> > > > > > Look for others' opinions on the alias and chime in.  If an=
yone else
> > > > > > strongly feels "string" is the right way to go, we can cert=
ainly
> > > > > > create an issue to track.
> > > > > My point is that for configured list items that don't have a =
"natural"
> > > > > key (ip addres or whatever), in YANG we normally use a key "n=
ame" of
> > > > > type "string".  The idea is that strings are easier to work w=
ith and
> > > > > more flexible as identifiers in the configuration.  It is eas=
ier to
> > > > > work with a subscription called "critical-to-noc", than "37".=

> > > > If the subscription id is configured by a client, then generall=
y a string
> > > > seems like a more friendly choice.=A0 E.g. as a point of compar=
ison I note
> > > > that the ACL YANG model is using names to identify ACLs rather =
than
> > > > numerical ids ...
> > > > =

> > > > If the subscription id is being generated by a computer (e.g. t=
he device)
> > > > then a numerical id is better, since it is easy to generate the=
 next new
> > > > one.
> > > > =

> > > > For encoding purposes, with XML or JSON, whether it is a string=
 or a number
> > > > doesn't seem to make any real difference.=A0 But if the subscri=
ption uses a
> > > > binary encoding (e.g. CBOR) then a numerical field is likely to=
 be more
> > > > compact.
> > > > =

> > > > If the same subscription id is used for both the configured lis=
t and
> > > > operational list then I think that I would prefer a string, whe=
re part of
> > > > the value space is reserved for device assigned ids, e.g. "all =
device
> > > > subscriptions use a string format like "svr-<number>".
> > > > =

> > > > But I actually wonder whether the solution here shouldn't be to=
 have
> > > > different indexes for the configured vs operational list of sub=
scriptions:
> > > > =

> > > > E.g.
> > > > - the subscription configuration uses an arbitrary string name,=
 but gets
> > > > allocated an internal numerical subscription id (which is avail=
able in
> > > > <operational>).
> > > > - the internal subscriptions are indexed by a system assigned n=
umerical id.
> > > > - notifications always include the system assigned numeric id (=
for
> > > > compactness).
> > > >  =A0- notifications could also include the configured name.=A0 =
This could be
> > > > controlled via a config leaf in a configured subscription.=A0 O=
r when
> > > > establishing a subscription via RPC it might be useful if the c=
lient could
> > > > also provide a string name/description of the subscription (whi=
ch again
> > > > could be included/not included in the notifications via a boole=
an input
> > > > parameter).
> > > > =

> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Rob
> > > > =

> > > > =

> > > > > =

> > > > > /martin
> > > > > =

> > > > > =

> > > > > =

> > > > > .
> > > > > =

> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Netconf mailing list
> > > > Netconf@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> > =

> > _______________________________________________
> > Netconf mailing list
> > Netconf@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> =

> -- =

> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | German=
y
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
> =

> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> =


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
CC: "netconf-chairs@ietf.org" <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>, "Robert Wilton -X (rwilton - ENSOFT LIMITED at Cisco)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, "alexander.clemm@huawei.com" <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, "alberto.gonzalezprieto@yahoo.com" <alberto.gonzalezprieto@yahoo.com>, "Einar Nilsen-Nygaard (einarnn)" <einarnn@cisco.com>, "Ambika Prasad Tripathy Tripathy (ambtripa)" <ambtripa@cisco.com>, "zhengguangying@huawei.com" <zhengguangying@huawei.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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> "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
> > Hi Martin,
> >
> > > From: Martin Bjorklund, October 19, 2017 3:29 AM
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > > (4) Martin is also asking that a subscription identifier to be a
> > > > string rather than an integer.  While this is technically open
> > > > between Martin & I, I believe the case is very strong for integer
> > > > -- so much so that my belief is that this need not be turned into a=
 formal
> issue.
> > > > Look for others' opinions on the alias and chime in.  If anyone
> > > > else strongly feels "string" is the right way to go, we can
> > > > certainly create an issue to track.
> > >
> > > My point is that for configured list items that don't have a "natural=
"
> > > key (ip addres or whatever), in YANG we normally use a key "name" of
> > > type "string".  The idea is that strings are easier to work with and
> > > more flexible as identifiers in the configuration.  It is easier to
> > > work with a subscription called "critical-to-noc", than "37".
> >
> > As the discussion in growing wider with IoT.   I have added it as:
> > https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/issues/6
> >
> > I maintain that it is far more important to optimize for speed and
> > size of notification messages.  (See Carsten's email.)  Plus there is
> > no reason that people cannot augment the model with a more human
> > readable string if one is desired for configured subscriptions.
>=20
> You cannot change the key via augmentation, so even if you augment a leaf=
 of
> type string, the client still have to provide the integer.

Exactly.   I believe the string leaf would provide the option of text descr=
iption to describe the configured subscription without impacting transport =
efficiency.   As this leaf would be included a "subscription-started" notif=
ication, it can be included as the context provided to the receiver without=
 impacting the efficiency of normal subscribed content delivery.

Eric=20

> /martin


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To: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 01:01:19PM +0100, Robert Wilton wrote:
> 
> I'm not particularly familiar with IOT devices, but my understanding is that
> it is desirable to minimize bandwidth (and frequency of messages) as much as
> possible to reduce power usage.
>

If the target are constrained IoT devices, how many subscription to
you expect them to handle? If you name subscriptions with a single
ASCII letter or digit, you get 26+26+10 = 62 notification you can
distinguish with a single byte string. Add a few more punctuation
characters and you get closer to 80 subscriptions.

The question is whether every client will have to deal with numeric
identifiers and possibly mappings between identifier spaces just to
please some devices that are seriously resource constrained but need
to handle more than say 80-100 subscriptions. At least there is a
certain chance that these devices we optimize for will never exist in
the real world.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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On 10/19/2017 03:12 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
> Hi Juergen,
> 
>> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, October 19, 2017 3:40 AM
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 09:28:33AM +0200, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>> (4) Martin is also asking that a subscription identifier to be a
>>>> string rather than an integer.  While this is technically open
>>>> between Martin & I, I believe the case is very strong for integer --
>>>> so much so that my belief is that this need not be turned into a formal
>> issue.
>>>> Look for others' opinions on the alias and chime in.  If anyone else
>>>> strongly feels "string" is the right way to go, we can certainly
>>>> create an issue to track.
>>>
>>> My point is that for configured list items that don't have a "natural"
>>> key (ip addres or whatever), in YANG we normally use a key "name" of
>>> type "string".  The idea is that strings are easier to work with and
>>> more flexible as identifiers in the configuration.  It is easier to
>>> work with a subscription called "critical-to-noc", than "37".
>>
>> I agree with Martin and note that you can use the string "37" or "a"
>> as well if you need short and difficult to memorize identifiers.

I am a little bit puzzled by this conversation. If I understand it 
correctly, a small identifier, such as 37 is considered more difficult 
to remember as the term "critical-to-noc". In respect human long term 
memory, I would assume (I do not know) that is true.

More important though, I think, than the difficulty to memorize an 
identifier (which remains arguable) is the fact that critical-to-noc" is 
self-descriptive in respect to humans and 37 is not.

In respect to computing contexts and efficient processing, I would dare 
to say that is not correct. 37 can be very well self-descriptive and my 
computer can remember stuff way better than I can.

 From my POV, "critical-to-noc" seems to be a human readable description 
for the effective identifier that is 37. What do others think about my 
point of view?


Viele GrÃ¼ÃŸe,

Henk

> 
> What do you think of adding a string leaf which is a description for a configured description?
> 
> That would allow an even more robust documentation of the configured subscriptions purpose, but still allow for maximum efficiency in transport.
> 
> Eric
> 
>> /js
>>
>> --
>> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
>> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
>> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> 


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To: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>, <netconf@ietf.org>
References: <cb73cc6f3760425d93e587bddb1a44ba@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20171019.092833.569972855525517012.mbj@tail-f.com> <e5e526f2-4a96-f6b5-9c62-3882091f3ef1@cisco.com> <20171019111131.hfkjj7exxqe4npjk@elstar.local> <7dde4013-44ac-c188-e0a8-abaf7d2461c9@cisco.com> <20171019134618.ufqgpshjgwc7d5pt@elstar.local>
From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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Hello JÃ¼rgen,

In certain scopes a byte string with the size of 1 is an excellent 
identifier, I think. Even a text string with the size of 1 would be okay 
(assuming 62-80) in a lot of usage scenarios.

If that would be okay, how is a number (e.g. a unit64, if you require an 
example for a specific type) so different from that?

Viele GrÃ¼ÃŸe,

Henk

On 10/19/2017 03:46 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 01:01:19PM +0100, Robert Wilton wrote:
>>
>> I'm not particularly familiar with IOT devices, but my understanding is that
>> it is desirable to minimize bandwidth (and frequency of messages) as much as
>> possible to reduce power usage.
>>
> 
> If the target are constrained IoT devices, how many subscription to
> you expect them to handle? If you name subscriptions with a single
> ASCII letter or digit, you get 26+26+10 = 62 notification you can
> distinguish with a single byte string. Add a few more punctuation
> characters and you get closer to 80 subscriptions.
> 
> The question is whether every client will have to deal with numeric
> identifiers and possibly mappings between identifier spaces just to
> please some devices that are seriously resource constrained but need
> to handle more than say 80-100 subscriptions. At least there is a
> certain chance that these devices we optimize for will never exist in
> the real world.
> 
> /js
> 


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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
Cc: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, "netconf-chairs@ietf.org" <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>, "zhengguangying@huawei.com" <zhengguangying@huawei.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>, "alberto.gonzalezprieto@yahoo.com" <alberto.gonzalezprieto@yahoo.com>
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On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 01:12:14PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
> Hi Juergen,
> 
> > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, October 19, 2017 3:40 AM
> > 
> > On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 09:28:33AM +0200, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > > (4) Martin is also asking that a subscription identifier to be a
> > > > string rather than an integer.  While this is technically open
> > > > between Martin & I, I believe the case is very strong for integer --
> > > > so much so that my belief is that this need not be turned into a formal
> > issue.
> > > > Look for others' opinions on the alias and chime in.  If anyone else
> > > > strongly feels "string" is the right way to go, we can certainly
> > > > create an issue to track.
> > >
> > > My point is that for configured list items that don't have a "natural"
> > > key (ip addres or whatever), in YANG we normally use a key "name" of
> > > type "string".  The idea is that strings are easier to work with and
> > > more flexible as identifiers in the configuration.  It is easier to
> > > work with a subscription called "critical-to-noc", than "37".
> > 
> > I agree with Martin and note that you can use the string "37" or "a"
> > as well if you need short and difficult to memorize identifiers.
> 
> What do you think of adding a string leaf which is a description for a configured description?
> 
> That would allow an even more robust documentation of the configured subscriptions purpose, but still allow for maximum efficiency in transport.
>

So we make the key numeric, then we add an additional leaf, then we
need to do a search to find an entry by the additional leaf value. See
my other message: we may be putting extra burden on all clients to
please devices that may never really exist. Does not sound like a good
engineering tradeoff to me. So how many subscriptions do we expect
constrained devices to handle?

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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References: <cb73cc6f3760425d93e587bddb1a44ba@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <20171019.092833.569972855525517012.mbj@tail-f.com> <e5e526f2-4a96-f6b5-9c62-3882091f3ef1@cisco.com> <20171019111131.hfkjj7exxqe4npjk@elstar.local> <3FF0C606-A833-45EA-8039-66046231618B@tzi.org>
From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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Hi Carsten,

I just want to check that I correctly understand your suggestion: I 
think that you are suggesting that the a subscription-id could be 
defined as a YANG union type of a string and an integer.Â  Is that right?

If so, then that might work, and has the additional benefit that the 
configured subscriptions and operational subscriptions could be 
represented as a single NMDA tree in YANG rather than two separate trees 
in the current draft.

Thanks,
Rob


On 19/10/2017 13:06, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> For me this is a very interesting discussion, because we will have many instances of this type of issue in the future.
>
> Netconf and YANG are fundamentally XML technologies, and the XML roots shine through at every bend.  There is some optimism that YANG can be used at a level of resource availability (â€œconstrained nodesâ€) where XML would have been a problem.  There are some issues that basing the YANG semantics based on the XML serialization cause for type choices; we think we have them mostly under control for yang-cbor.
>
> Now how do we get the simpler type (unsigned int) for internal elements of the protocol mechanics?  Iâ€™m not sure this cannot simply be solved by a type choice between text string and uint; an XML based implementation will be none the wiser and a CBOR implementation can do the right thing.
>
> This keeps the complexity confined to where the actual benefit is, which would generally make this designer happy.
>
> GrÃ¼ÃŸe, Carsten
>
>
>> On Oct 19, 2017, at 13:11, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>>
>> Sure, why not make things complex to save a few bytes occasionally.
>>
>> /js
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 10:48:15AM +0100, Robert Wilton wrote:
>>>
>>> On 19/10/2017 08:28, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>>> (4) Martin is also asking that a subscription identifier to be a
>>>>> string rather than an integer.  While this is technically open between
>>>>> Martin & I, I believe the case is very strong for integer -- so much
>>>>> so that my belief is that this need not be turned into a formal issue.
>>>>> Look for others' opinions on the alias and chime in.  If anyone else
>>>>> strongly feels "string" is the right way to go, we can certainly
>>>>> create an issue to track.
>>>> My point is that for configured list items that don't have a "natural"
>>>> key (ip addres or whatever), in YANG we normally use a key "name" of
>>>> type "string".  The idea is that strings are easier to work with and
>>>> more flexible as identifiers in the configuration.  It is easier to
>>>> work with a subscription called "critical-to-noc", than "37".
>>> If the subscription id is configured by a client, then generally a string
>>> seems like a more friendly choice.  E.g. as a point of comparison I note
>>> that the ACL YANG model is using names to identify ACLs rather than
>>> numerical ids ...
>>>
>>> If the subscription id is being generated by a computer (e.g. the device)
>>> then a numerical id is better, since it is easy to generate the next new
>>> one.
>>>
>>> For encoding purposes, with XML or JSON, whether it is a string or a number
>>> doesn't seem to make any real difference.  But if the subscription uses a
>>> binary encoding (e.g. CBOR) then a numerical field is likely to be more
>>> compact.
>>>
>>> If the same subscription id is used for both the configured list and
>>> operational list then I think that I would prefer a string, where part of
>>> the value space is reserved for device assigned ids, e.g. "all device
>>> subscriptions use a string format like "svr-<number>".
>>>
>>> But I actually wonder whether the solution here shouldn't be to have
>>> different indexes for the configured vs operational list of subscriptions:
>>>
>>> E.g.
>>> - the subscription configuration uses an arbitrary string name, but gets
>>> allocated an internal numerical subscription id (which is available in
>>> <operational>).
>>> - the internal subscriptions are indexed by a system assigned numerical id.
>>> - notifications always include the system assigned numeric id (for
>>> compactness).
>>>   - notifications could also include the configured name.  This could be
>>> controlled via a config leaf in a configured subscription.  Or when
>>> establishing a subscription via RPC it might be useful if the client could
>>> also provide a string name/description of the subscription (which again
>>> could be included/not included in the notifications via a boolean input
>>> parameter).
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Rob
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> /martin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Netconf mailing list
>>> Netconf@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>> -- 
>> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
>> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
>> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Netconf mailing list
>> Netconf@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>
>>
> .
>


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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From nobody Thu Oct 19 06:58:34 2017
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch-18.txt
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Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:
> As a follow-up to this.  I asked a question to the NETMOD list yesterday
> regarding how this draft has a 'must' statement to a 'choice' node.  The
> tools I'm using all seemed okay with it, and there were no submission 
> validation warnings or errors.  That said, it seems to be illegal and I
> should fix it immediately.
> 
> It would be incredibly helpful if folks could take a look at all use of 
> XPaths in the YANG modules.

I checked these tools with 'yanger' (another open source YANG
compiler, found on my github page).  It complains about the 'choice'
in yang-data, but after temporarily fixing that I get:

ietf-zerotouch-information@2017-10-18.yang:149: warning: The XPath expression references an undefined node: the node 'hash-algorithm' from module 'ietf-zerotouch-information' (in node 'boot-image' from 'ietf-zerotouch-information') is not found
ietf-zerotouch-information@2017-10-18.yang:165: warning: The XPath expression references an undefined node: the node 'uri' from module 'ietf-zerotouch-information' (in node 'onboarding-information' from 'ietf-zerotouch-information') is not found


The first one is the must to a choice node.

The second one is the must *in* the choice; note that the XPath
context node for this expression is the parent node in the data tree,
which is "container boot-image".  Thus the must statement should be:
"must 'uri';"



/martin


From nobody Thu Oct 19 07:03:34 2017
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 16:07:59 +0200
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Cc: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>, netconf@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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Henk,

the point is that a string can be long or short and with strings it is
not hard-wired in the data model how key values have to be chosen.
The key values can be short or long, they may be meaningful to users /
programmers or not, they may carry additional semantics that are
meaningful to applications or they may not. If I prefer to name things
with single byte strings, I can do so as long as I do not need more
than ~80 of them.

/js

On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 03:53:55PM +0200, Henk Birkholz wrote:
> Hello Jürgen,
> 
> In certain scopes a byte string with the size of 1 is an excellent
> identifier, I think. Even a text string with the size of 1 would be okay
> (assuming 62-80) in a lot of usage scenarios.
> 
> If that would be okay, how is a number (e.g. a unit64, if you require an
> example for a specific type) so different from that?
> 
> Viele Grüße,
> 
> Henk
> 
> On 10/19/2017 03:46 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> > On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 01:01:19PM +0100, Robert Wilton wrote:
> > > 
> > > I'm not particularly familiar with IOT devices, but my understanding is that
> > > it is desirable to minimize bandwidth (and frequency of messages) as much as
> > > possible to reduce power usage.
> > > 
> > 
> > If the target are constrained IoT devices, how many subscription to
> > you expect them to handle? If you name subscriptions with a single
> > ASCII letter or digit, you get 26+26+10 = 62 notification you can
> > distinguish with a single byte string. Add a few more punctuation
> > characters and you get closer to 80 subscriptions.
> > 
> > The question is whether every client will have to deal with numeric
> > identifiers and possibly mappings between identifier spaces just to
> > please some devices that are seriously resource constrained but need
> > to handle more than say 80-100 subscriptions. At least there is a
> > certain chance that these devices we optimize for will never exist in
> > the real world.
> > 
> > /js
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>,  "netconf-chairs@ietf.org" <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>, "zhengguangying@huawei.com" <zhengguangying@huawei.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>, "alberto.gonzalezprieto@yahoo.com" <alberto.gonzalezprieto@yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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On 10/19/2017 03:54 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 01:12:14PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
>> Hi Juergen,
>>
>>> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, October 19, 2017 3:40 AM
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 09:28:33AM +0200, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>>> (4) Martin is also asking that a subscription identifier to be a
>>>>> string rather than an integer.  While this is technically open
>>>>> between Martin & I, I believe the case is very strong for integer --
>>>>> so much so that my belief is that this need not be turned into a formal
>>> issue.
>>>>> Look for others' opinions on the alias and chime in.  If anyone else
>>>>> strongly feels "string" is the right way to go, we can certainly
>>>>> create an issue to track.
>>>>
>>>> My point is that for configured list items that don't have a "natural"
>>>> key (ip addres or whatever), in YANG we normally use a key "name" of
>>>> type "string".  The idea is that strings are easier to work with and
>>>> more flexible as identifiers in the configuration.  It is easier to
>>>> work with a subscription called "critical-to-noc", than "37".
>>>
>>> I agree with Martin and note that you can use the string "37" or "a"
>>> as well if you need short and difficult to memorize identifiers.
>>
>> What do you think of adding a string leaf which is a description for a configured description?
>>
>> That would allow an even more robust documentation of the configured subscriptions purpose, but still allow for maximum efficiency in transport.
>>
> 
> So we make the key numeric, then we add an additional leaf, then we
> need to do a search to find an entry by the additional leaf value. See
> my other message: we may be putting extra burden on all clients to
> please devices that may never really exist. Does not sound like a good
> engineering tradeoff to me. So how many subscriptions do we expect
> constrained devices to handle?
> 
> /js
> 

Hello JÃ¼rgen,

in the scenario you illustrate, why would you want to do a search by the 
"additional leaf" and create that "extra burden on all clients"? Why not 
just use the numeric key? This still leaves me puzzled. It would be like 
google'ing me via my description rather than my name?

Yes, I agree, that would be burdensome, but why would you do that in the 
first place?

Maybe I am missing something vital here.

Viele GrÃ¼ÃŸe,

Henk


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From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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On 19/10/2017 15:02, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> wrote:
>> Hi Carsten,
>>
>> I just want to check that I correctly understand your suggestion: I
>> think that you are suggesting that the a subscription-id could be
>> defined as a YANG union type of a string and an integer.Â  Is that
>> right?
>>
>> If so, then that might work, and has the additional benefit that the
>> configured subscriptions and operational subscriptions could be
>> represented as a single NMDA tree in YANG rather than two separate
>> trees in the current draft.
> I don't think so - what prevents a client for configuring an entry
> with an integer?
Nothing.Â  A client can use an integer if they want.Â  But the numerical 
subscriber-id space would need to be partitioned between client 
configured values and internally allocated ids (as is required with the 
current numerical scheme).

At the moment the draft suggests that the low half of the 32 bit number 
range be assigned to client subscriber ids, and the rest to internal 
subscriber ids.Â  If we were to use a union of string and numerical 
value, then I would suggest that the numerical partitioning is the other 
way round to get the better binary encoding efficiency of low subscriber 
ids for the more common dynamic subscriptions.

>
> *if* we really need to use an integer in the payload, I think your
> solution could work, but without your last step - i.e:
>
>    - the subscription configuration uses an arbitrary string name, but gets
>      allocated an internal numerical subscription id (which is available in
>      <operational>).
>    - the internal subscriptions are indexed by a system assigned numerical
>      id.
>    - notifications always include the system assigned numeric id (for
>      compactness).
>
> But I'm not convinced this "optimization" is worth the additional
> complexity.
I think that the notification messages have to be as small/concise as is 
reasonably possible.Â  I think that one of the the limiting factors on 
how much telemetry data can be generated off any device is the point 
that you saturate the bandwidth of the management port.

Thanks,
Rob


>
>
>
> /martin
>
>
>
>
>> Thanks,
>> Rob
>>
>>
>> On 19/10/2017 13:06, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>>> For me this is a very interesting discussion, because we will have
>>> many instances of this type of issue in the future.
>>>
>>> Netconf and YANG are fundamentally XML technologies, and the XML roots
>>> shine through at every bend.  There is some optimism that YANG can be
>>> used at a level of resource availability (â€œconstrained nodesâ€) where
>>> XML would have been a problem.  There are some issues that basing the
>>> YANG semantics based on the XML serialization cause for type choices;
>>> we think we have them mostly under control for yang-cbor.
>>>
>>> Now how do we get the simpler type (unsigned int) for internal
>>> elements of the protocol mechanics?  Iâ€™m not sure this cannot simply
>>> be solved by a type choice between text string and uint; an XML based
>>> implementation will be none the wiser and a CBOR implementation can do
>>> the right thing.
>>>
>>> This keeps the complexity confined to where the actual benefit is,
>>> which would generally make this designer happy.
>>>
>>> GrÃ¼ÃŸe, Carsten
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Oct 19, 2017, at 13:11, Juergen Schoenwaelder
>>>> <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Sure, why not make things complex to save a few bytes occasionally.
>>>>
>>>> /js
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 10:48:15AM +0100, Robert Wilton wrote:
>>>>> On 19/10/2017 08:28, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> (4) Martin is also asking that a subscription identifier to be a
>>>>>>> string rather than an integer.  While this is technically open between
>>>>>>> Martin & I, I believe the case is very strong for integer -- so much
>>>>>>> so that my belief is that this need not be turned into a formal issue.
>>>>>>> Look for others' opinions on the alias and chime in.  If anyone else
>>>>>>> strongly feels "string" is the right way to go, we can certainly
>>>>>>> create an issue to track.
>>>>>> My point is that for configured list items that don't have a "natural"
>>>>>> key (ip addres or whatever), in YANG we normally use a key "name" of
>>>>>> type "string".  The idea is that strings are easier to work with and
>>>>>> more flexible as identifiers in the configuration.  It is easier to
>>>>>> work with a subscription called "critical-to-noc", than "37".
>>>>> If the subscription id is configured by a client, then generally a
>>>>> string
>>>>> seems like a more friendly choice.  E.g. as a point of comparison I
>>>>> note
>>>>> that the ACL YANG model is using names to identify ACLs rather than
>>>>> numerical ids ...
>>>>>
>>>>> If the subscription id is being generated by a computer (e.g. the
>>>>> device)
>>>>> then a numerical id is better, since it is easy to generate the next
>>>>> new
>>>>> one.
>>>>>
>>>>> For encoding purposes, with XML or JSON, whether it is a string or a
>>>>> number
>>>>> doesn't seem to make any real difference.  But if the subscription
>>>>> uses a
>>>>> binary encoding (e.g. CBOR) then a numerical field is likely to be
>>>>> more
>>>>> compact.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the same subscription id is used for both the configured list and
>>>>> operational list then I think that I would prefer a string, where part
>>>>> of
>>>>> the value space is reserved for device assigned ids, e.g. "all device
>>>>> subscriptions use a string format like "svr-<number>".
>>>>>
>>>>> But I actually wonder whether the solution here shouldn't be to have
>>>>> different indexes for the configured vs operational list of
>>>>> subscriptions:
>>>>>
>>>>> E.g.
>>>>> - the subscription configuration uses an arbitrary string name, but gets
>>>>> allocated an internal numerical subscription id (which is available in
>>>>> <operational>).
>>>>> - the internal subscriptions are indexed by a system assigned numerical
>>>>> - id.
>>>>> - notifications always include the system assigned numeric id (for
>>>>> compactness).
>>>>>    - notifications could also include the configured name.  This could be
>>>>> controlled via a config leaf in a configured subscription.  Or when
>>>>> establishing a subscription via RPC it might be useful if the client
>>>>> could
>>>>> also provide a string name/description of the subscription (which
>>>>> again
>>>>> could be included/not included in the notifications via a boolean
>>>>> input
>>>>> parameter).
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Rob
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> /martin
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Netconf mailing list
>>>>> Netconf@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>>> -- 
>>>> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
>>>> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
>>>> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Netconf mailing list
>>>> Netconf@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>>>
>>>>
>>> .
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Netconf mailing list
>> Netconf@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, "netconf-chairs@ietf.org" <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>, "zhengguangying@huawei.com" <zhengguangying@huawei.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>, "alberto.gonzalezprieto@yahoo.com" <alberto.gonzalezprieto@yahoo.com>
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From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 15:34:34 +0100
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/vP2XvFBgTGG0XhA3B_jhI804arc>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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Hi Henk,

Something in the client domain has to manage the client subscriber-ids 
for each device to ensure that they are unique, e.g. so that one NMS 
(e.g. to subscribing to syslog notifications) doesn't overwrite the 
subscriptions for another NMS (e.g. subscribing to traffic data rates).

Using strings, it seems like it easy to come up with a scheme to 
partition these, e.g. "syslog-xxx" vs "datarate-xxx".

Obviously it is still possible to come up with a unique scheme to 
partition numerical ids, but that naively appears to be more hassle to 
manage, or the client needs a central server to allocate unique 
subscription ids for each given device.Â  Adding a description statement 
partially helps from a debug perspective, but doesn't remove the 
requirement to allocate unique ids in the first place.

Thanks,
Rob


On 19/10/2017 15:08, Henk Birkholz wrote:
>
>
> On 10/19/2017 03:54 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
>> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 01:12:14PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
>>> Hi Juergen,
>>>
>>>> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, October 19, 2017 3:40 AM
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 09:28:33AM +0200, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>>>> (4) Martin is also asking that a subscription identifier to be a
>>>>>> string rather than an integer.Â  While this is technically open
>>>>>> between Martin & I, I believe the case is very strong for integer --
>>>>>> so much so that my belief is that this need not be turned into a 
>>>>>> formal
>>>> issue.
>>>>>> Look for others' opinions on the alias and chime in.Â  If anyone else
>>>>>> strongly feels "string" is the right way to go, we can certainly
>>>>>> create an issue to track.
>>>>>
>>>>> My point is that for configured list items that don't have a 
>>>>> "natural"
>>>>> key (ip addres or whatever), in YANG we normally use a key "name" of
>>>>> type "string".Â  The idea is that strings are easier to work with and
>>>>> more flexible as identifiers in the configuration.Â  It is easier to
>>>>> work with a subscription called "critical-to-noc", than "37".
>>>>
>>>> I agree with Martin and note that you can use the string "37" or "a"
>>>> as well if you need short and difficult to memorize identifiers.
>>>
>>> What do you think of adding a string leaf which is a description for 
>>> a configured description?
>>>
>>> That would allow an even more robust documentation of the configured 
>>> subscriptions purpose, but still allow for maximum efficiency in 
>>> transport.
>>>
>>
>> So we make the key numeric, then we add an additional leaf, then we
>> need to do a search to find an entry by the additional leaf value. See
>> my other message: we may be putting extra burden on all clients to
>> please devices that may never really exist. Does not sound like a good
>> engineering tradeoff to me. So how many subscriptions do we expect
>> constrained devices to handle?
>>
>> /js
>>
>
> Hello JÃ¼rgen,
>
> in the scenario you illustrate, why would you want to do a search by 
> the "additional leaf" and create that "extra burden on all clients"? 
> Why not just use the numeric key? This still leaves me puzzled. It 
> would be like google'ing me via my description rather than my name?
>
> Yes, I agree, that would be burdensome, but why would you do that in 
> the first place?
>
> Maybe I am missing something vital here.
>
> Viele GrÃ¼ÃŸe,
>
> Henk
>
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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Subject: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch-19.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Zero Touch Provisioning for NETCONF or RESTCONF based Management
        Authors         : Kent Watsen
                          Mikael Abrahamsson
                          Ian Farrer
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch-19.txt
	Pages           : 80
	Date            : 2017-10-19

Abstract:
   This draft presents a secure technique for establishing a NETCONF or
   RESTCONF connection between a newly deployed device, configured with
   just its preconfigured initial state (e.g., factory default
   settings), and its deployment specific network management system
   (NMS).


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch-19
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch-19

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch-19


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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To: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
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From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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Hi Alex,

On 18/10/2017 21:35, Alexander Clemm wrote:
> Hi Rob,
>
> Thanks for your response!  Two quick comments to add on to Eric's:
>
> Regarding ordering of the work: IMHO, we shouldn't serialize this work but try to advance subscribed-notifications, yang-push, and netconf-notifications at the same time.  This work was already started three years ago with yang-push, from where the work was broken out and modularized into the current pieces (with some new pieces added, of course), and I think it is really time to bring it to a closure .
OK, serializing the work might be expressing this the wrong way.

If there any possibility that the notification format might impact the 
subscriber or YANG push configuration?Â  E.g. the encoding of the 
subscription identifier could affect what the associated configuration 
model looks like.

If so, then it feels like spending a couple months with the WG trying to 
nail down the notification format would be a good idea. Then the 
subscription and YANG push drafts could formally depend on the new 
notification format.

>    
>
> Regarding notifications and notification bundles, I think it is a worthwhile optimization to address individual notifications (vs notification bundles containing just one notification), given that the bundle comes with some overhead.  But of course you are correct in that the single notification can be considered a special case and be addressed just by a notification bundle, and ultimately it would be up to servers to decide what to do (if they have only a single notification to send).
I still don't entirely get this :-).

The device is generating an unbounded stream of notifications.Â  Most of 
the key information related to the notification (such as a timestamp, 
subscription id, msg contents) should be in the notification structure 
itself.Â  Ideally, you normally want the device to send the notification 
as soon as it can (but other traffic/latency may slow this down).

If the notifications are being sent to a client on something like a 
buffered TCP connection, then I would think that you would just write 
the encoded notification structures directly to the TCP steam.Â  I.e. 
presumably without any extra message header fields (back to wanting to 
keep the messages small).

Conversely, if the notifications are being sent over something more like 
UDP then I would assume that you may want to pack multiple notifications 
into a single packet, and add extra fields to detect lost notifications.

Thanks,
Rob


>
> Thanks
> --- Alex
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Voit
>> (evoit)
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 12:13 PM
>> To: Robert Wilton -X (rwilton - ENSOFT LIMITED at Cisco)
>> <rwilton@cisco.com>; Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>;
>> netconf@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and
>> subscriptions
>>
>> Hi Robert,
>>
>> Thanks for the review.  Some thoughts in-line...
>>
>>> From: Robert Wilton, October 18, 2017 1:15 PM
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I've not had a chance to review all of these drafts yet, but I did look at both:
>>> draft-voit-netconf-subscription-and-notif-overview-00 and
>>> draft-ietf-netconf- notification-messages.
>>>
>>> My high level comments are below:
>>>
>>> It is unclear to me whether the plan is to publish
>>> subscription-and-notif- overview or not?Â  Having an overview document
>>> that binds the technologies together could be quite useful (in fact
>>> some of the background, and definitions could move to an overview
>>> draft, but I think that this intro draft could do with further work before
>> going to WG LC.
>>
>> I have not been thinking of progressing this overview document into a WG
>> draft.  The main reason is that several highly placed members of the IETF
>> have expressed that they don't want to see a proliferation of generalized
>> architecture context documents.  With Kent's assistance, I have been trying
>> to straddle this line.
>>
>>> The other question I had was relating to the ordering of this work. I
>>> understand the strong desire the get this work completed, but I do
>>> wonder whether the drafts would all be able to sit together more
>>> coherently if the work on draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages was
>>> completed first, then the other drafts could presumably more cleanly
>>> depend on the new notification message format.
>> There is still a lot of longer-term work which needs to be done on
>> notification-messages.  Once the format stabilizes, we will be going through
>> each header object to determine its proper articulation.  Objects like
>> signature are about to get contributions on this doc.  Items like attestation of
>> the contents of the messages (as well as alignment with attestation of
>> information returned from a GET) could also take some time.
>>
>> And there are short term drivers which suggest we should close on some
>> form of yang-push over NETCONF at least.  For example, at the last IETF,
>> there was already some inter-vendor work at the Hackathon looking at
>> interoperability.  Also there exist several open source implementations of a
>> Subscriber client.  My hope is we just close now on that context, and let the
>> rest await the availability of notification-messages.
>>
>>> Regarding the notification message format itself: I wasn't quite sure
>>> if there needs to be a split between a bundled and unbundled message,
>>> in that it seems that having a single message format might be easier, e.g.
>>> by always using the bundled message format.
>>>
>>> But then I was also questioning that if the messages are being streamed
>> (e.g.
>>> over TCP) then possibly you don't want to include all of the header
>>> information, in that it is presumably desirable to keep the streamed
>>> messages as compact as possible.Â  I think that there is probably a bit
>>> of the bigger picture that I'm still missing.
>> Yes, going to one message can be done.  But as you point out It adds
>> overhead especially to smaller high frequency messages.  The other
>> complexity with bundled messages is the publisher needs to determine
>> exactly what should be placed in each bundle.  This might not seem to be an
>> issue, but what if some elements of the bundle need to be signed, and
>> others do not.   What should be the behavior?
>>
>> In the end, if the IoT guys don't have an issue with efficiency (where this
>> seems to matter most), we could collapse to one.  (it is discussions like this
>> which need to stew for a while before we can close on notification-
>> messages.)
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Rob
>>>
>>>
>>> On 04/10/2017 22:24, Kent Watsen wrote:
>>>> Weâ€™d like to direct the WG attention to the set of drafts related to
>>> notifications and subscriptions, with the goal of getting a pulse on
>>> if the WG thinks they are ready to progress now.
>>>> To enable you get an overview and to see how the documents relate to
>>>> each
>>> other, this draft is a good place to start:
>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voit-
>>> netconf-subscription-and-notif-overview-00.
>>>> The drafts related to this review are:
>>>>      -  draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications
>>>>      -  draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push
>>>>      -  draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications
>>>>      -  draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif
>>>>      -  draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages
>>>>
>>>> While this is not an official WGLC, we will issue one if the
>>>> response is
>>> positive. Please provide comments within two weeks.
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Mahesh and Kent
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Netconf mailing list
>>>> Netconf@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Netconf mailing list
>>> Netconf@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>> _______________________________________________
>> Netconf mailing list
>> Netconf@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch-19.txt
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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
CC: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch-18.txt
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 15:55:21 +0000
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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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From nobody Thu Oct 19 10:12:14 2017
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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, "Robert Wilton -X (rwilton - ENSOFT LIMITED at Cisco)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "alexander.clemm@huawei.com" <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
CC: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: SN #6  String or Integer for Subscription ID   (was  RE: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 17:12:07 +0000
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Subject: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 19:26:37 +0200
Cc: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, "Robert Wilton -X (rwilton - ENSOFT LIMITED at Cisco)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "alexander.clemm@huawei.com" <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
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To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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On Oct 19, 2017, at 19:12, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
> [C] union of integer and string. =20
> *************************
> As there are additional processing requirements in the receiver and =
key issues in the publisher, this would seem to have processing =
inefficiencies.  Does anyone want to argue for this?

Are there?

type union {
  type uint64;
  type string;
}

In XML (or JSON), there is no processing at all, it all looks like a =
string anyway.
In CBOR, we could make the distinction.

(I wouldn=E2=80=99t mind A, but C sounds better to me than B.)

> (B2) If Kent's question on the possibility of encoding frequently sent =
text fields in CBOR as integer comes back as viable, then the Size =
advantages of [A] go away

I don=E2=80=99t understand how B2 is less complicated than C.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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Hi Kent,

On Oct 19, 2017, at 18:36, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Carsten,
>=20
> In this discussion regarding the subscription identifier being a
> string rather than an integer, I'm wondering if CBOR is able to
> optimize the strings internally, by using a session-level table
> that maps strings to integers, such that integers are actually
> being sent most of the time in a notification stream?

We could add various forms of compression to yang-cbor.
Generally, we try to opt for concise forms (doing things in a compact =
way in the first place) over compression, as the latter involves some =
processing, usually requiring some copying, and that in turn increases =
memory requirements.
But we could try to evolve something simple for yang-cbor.
So far we didn=E2=80=99t have a need for that, as SIDs already take care =
of most of the textstringiness of YANG.
One problem in the COMI environment may also be that the session may not =
be as clearly delimited as in TCP-based transports.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


>=20
> Thanks,
> Kent
>=20
>=20
> For me this is a very interesting discussion, because we will have =
many instances of this type of issue in the future.
>=20
> Netconf and YANG are fundamentally XML technologies, and the XML roots =
shine through at every bend.  There is some optimism that YANG can be =
used at a level of resource availability (=E2=80=9Cconstrained nodes=E2=80=
=9D) where XML would have been a problem.  There are some issues that =
basing the YANG semantics based on the XML serialization cause for type =
choices; we think we have them mostly under control for yang-cbor.
>=20
> Now how do we get the simpler type (unsigned int) for internal =
elements of the protocol mechanics?  I=E2=80=99m not sure this cannot =
simply be solved by a type choice between text string and uint; an XML =
based implementation will be none the wiser and a CBOR implementation =
can do the right thing.
>=20
> This keeps the complexity confined to where the actual benefit is, =
which would generally make this designer happy.
>=20
> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>=20
>=20
>> On Oct 19, 2017, at 13:11, Juergen Schoenwaelder =
<j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>>=20
>> Sure, why not make things complex to save a few bytes occasionally.
>>=20
>> /js
>>=20
>> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 10:48:15AM +0100, Robert Wilton wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On 19/10/2017 08:28, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>=20
>>>> "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>>> (4) Martin is also asking that a subscription identifier to be a
>>>>> string rather than an integer.  While this is technically open =
between
>>>>> Martin & I, I believe the case is very strong for integer -- so =
much
>>>>> so that my belief is that this need not be turned into a formal =
issue.
>>>>> Look for others' opinions on the alias and chime in.  If anyone =
else
>>>>> strongly feels "string" is the right way to go, we can certainly
>>>>> create an issue to track.
>>>> My point is that for configured list items that don't have a =
"natural"
>>>> key (ip addres or whatever), in YANG we normally use a key "name" =
of
>>>> type "string".  The idea is that strings are easier to work with =
and
>>>> more flexible as identifiers in the configuration.  It is easier to
>>>> work with a subscription called "critical-to-noc", than "37".
>>> If the subscription id is configured by a client, then generally a =
string
>>> seems like a more friendly choice.  E.g. as a point of comparison I =
note
>>> that the ACL YANG model is using names to identify ACLs rather than
>>> numerical ids ...
>>>=20
>>> If the subscription id is being generated by a computer (e.g. the =
device)
>>> then a numerical id is better, since it is easy to generate the next =
new
>>> one.
>>>=20
>>> For encoding purposes, with XML or JSON, whether it is a string or a =
number
>>> doesn't seem to make any real difference.  But if the subscription =
uses a
>>> binary encoding (e.g. CBOR) then a numerical field is likely to be =
more
>>> compact.
>>>=20
>>> If the same subscription id is used for both the configured list and
>>> operational list then I think that I would prefer a string, where =
part of
>>> the value space is reserved for device assigned ids, e.g. "all =
device
>>> subscriptions use a string format like "svr-<number>".
>>>=20
>>> But I actually wonder whether the solution here shouldn't be to have
>>> different indexes for the configured vs operational list of =
subscriptions:
>>>=20
>>> E.g.
>>> - the subscription configuration uses an arbitrary string name, but =
gets
>>> allocated an internal numerical subscription id (which is available =
in
>>> <operational>).
>>> - the internal subscriptions are indexed by a system assigned =
numerical id.
>>> - notifications always include the system assigned numeric id (for
>>> compactness).
>>> - notifications could also include the configured name.  This could =
be
>>> controlled via a config leaf in a configured subscription.  Or when
>>> establishing a subscription via RPC it might be useful if the client =
could
>>> also provide a string name/description of the subscription (which =
again
>>> could be included/not included in the notifications via a boolean =
input
>>> parameter).
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>> Rob
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> /martin
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> .
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Netconf mailing list
>>> Netconf@ietf.org
>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_netconf&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWz=
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>>=20
>> --=20
>> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
>> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | =
Germany
>> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.jacobs-2Duniver=
sity.de_&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3D9z=
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>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Netconf mailing list
>> Netconf@ietf.org
>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_netconf&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWz=
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>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> =
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From: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>
To: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>,  Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 17:45:53 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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From nobody Thu Oct 19 11:22:47 2017
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To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>,  Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "alexander.clemm@huawei.com" <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
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References: <3cedca7ae4e94e18b31c09397e50e6b0@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com>
From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 19:22:42 +0100
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/8mSR5MNrWgnaIXkhzw7EFxy8Ym8>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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I think that my preference is still [D]: Use strings as the key for 
configured subscriptions and then numerical ids for the operational 
subscriptions (and only put the numeric ids into the messages).

That is also how the OpenConfig telemetry module that you reference 
below works, i.e. strings for configured subscriptions and numerical ids 
for dynamic subscriptions:

  grouping telemetry-subscription-name-config {
     description
       "Configuration parameters relating to the configured
        name of the telemetry subscription. The name is a user
        configured string value which uniquely identifies the
        subscription in the configuration database.";

      leaf subscription-name {
        type string;
        description
          "User configured identifier of the telemetry
           subscription. This value is used primarily for
           subscriptions configured locally on the network
           element.";
      }
   }

Thanks,
Rob


On 19/10/2017 18:12, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
> Trying to summarize for readability.  I have articulated a few more advantages to Integer, please feel free to let me know items I missed for String.
>
> [A]  Integer
> *********
> (A1) Efficiency of notification message processing: Comparing two numbers is magnitudes faster than comparing two strings (representing the same numbers). Sorting and forwarding of incoming messages on the receiver so that they go to the right requesting application will be faster.
>
> (A2) Size: A subscription id based on characters will be larger than transport based on integer. As we have IoT drafts relating to CBOR, we should look at efficiency.
>
> (A3) Easier to automatically generate IDs for dynamic subscriptions.  Enables easier conventions for sequential issuance of subscription-ids which can then be interpreted by subscriber
>
> (A4) Can augment (or add now in the base model) a leaf containing a string definition of a configured subscription.  This string would be passed as part of the "subscription-started" notification, so there would be no need to query the publisher for a meaning.  Greater verbosity and redundancy in text definitions would then both be allowed.  This text only need be passed once, and can be safely ignored by the receiver implementations.
>
> (A5) Low power IoT receivers.    Many small receivers of the same subscription might consume the same feed with a minimally sized, easier to process header. (Henk can provide sources for the use cases here.)
>
> (A6) Subscription ID in the OpenConfig.yang model is also an integer (uint64)
> See line 584 of: https://github.com/openconfig/public/blob/master/release/models/telemetry/openconfig-telemetry.yang
> Implementations supporting both model exposures will need to worry less about mapping.
>
> [B] String
> ********
> (B1) Easier to read and understand the sub-domain segmentation of the subscription-id space, as well as the creation of new sub-domains
>
> (B2) If Kent's question on the possibility of encoding frequently sent text fields in CBOR as integer comes back as viable, then the Size advantages of [A] go away
>
> [C] union of integer and string.
> *************************
> As there are additional processing requirements in the receiver and key issues in the publisher, this would seem to have processing inefficiencies.  Does anyone want to argue for this?
>
> Eric
>


From nobody Thu Oct 19 11:32:32 2017
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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 11:32:25 -0700
Message-ID: <CABCOCHSUpJXkGhkDWfd6fTbod9VYMXAGyZkJxLR8VevqKMcKKQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Cc: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 10:26 AM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:

> On Oct 19, 2017, at 19:12, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
> >
> > [C] union of integer and string.
> > *************************
> > As there are additional processing requirements in the receiver and key
> issues in the publisher, this would seem to have processing
> inefficiencies.  Does anyone want to argue for this?
>
> Are there?
>
> type union {
>   type uint64;
>   type string;
> }
>
> In XML (or JSON), there is no processing at all, it all looks like a
> string anyway.
> In CBOR, we could make the distinction.
>
> (I wouldn=E2=80=99t mind A, but C sounds better to me than B.)
>
>
I do not have time to follow all the details of this verbose thread, but it
seems like
the human-friendly label is a presentation-layer issue, and should not be
sent on
the wire in every notification (regardless of encoding).

I would prefer "type uint32" for the subscription ID.
That provides 2 billion subscribed and 2 billion configured clients on 1
server.
IMO 1000 concurrent subscriptions per server sounds like a lot.
Typical values of "max-sessions" used by our customers -- 3 to 8.




> > (B2) If Kent's question on the possibility of encoding frequently sent
> text fields in CBOR as integer comes back as viable, then the Size
> advantages of [A] go away
>
> I don=E2=80=99t understand how B2 is less complicated than C.
>
> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>
>
Andy


> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 10:26 AM, Carsten Bormann <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:cabo@tzi.org" target=3D"_blank">cabo@tzi.org</a>&gt;</sp=
an> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On Oct 19, 2017, at 19:12, Eri=
c Voit (evoit) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:evoit@cisco.com">evoit@cisco.com</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; [C] union of integer and string.<br>
&gt; *************************<br>
&gt; As there are additional processing requirements in the receiver and ke=
y issues in the publisher, this would seem to have processing inefficiencie=
s.=C2=A0 Does anyone want to argue for this?<br>
<br>
Are there?<br>
<br>
type union {<br>
=C2=A0 type uint64;<br>
=C2=A0 type string;<br>
}<br>
<br>
In XML (or JSON), there is no processing at all, it all looks like a string=
 anyway.<br>
In CBOR, we could make the distinction.<br>
<br>
(I wouldn=E2=80=99t mind A, but C sounds better to me than B.)<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I do not have time to follow all the d=
etails of this verbose thread, but it seems like</div><div>the human-friend=
ly label is a presentation-layer issue, and should not be sent on</div><div=
>the wire in every notification (regardless of encoding).</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>I would prefer &quot;type uint32&quot; for the subscription ID.</di=
v><div>That provides 2 billion subscribed and 2 billion configured clients =
on 1 server.</div><div>IMO 1000 concurrent subscriptions per server sounds =
like a lot.</div><div>Typical values of &quot;max-sessions&quot; used by ou=
r customers -- 3 to 8.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
&gt; (B2) If Kent&#39;s question on the possibility of encoding frequently =
sent text fields in CBOR as integer comes back as viable, then the Size adv=
antages of [A] go away<br>
<br>
I don=E2=80=99t understand how B2 is less complicated than C.<br>
<br>
Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex">
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Netconf mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf" rel=3D"noreferrer=
" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/netconf</a><=
br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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From: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" <timjenki@cisco.com>
To: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else   from the two week look?) 
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--_000_A73981A57BAC43D0994D591E117507C3ciscocom_--


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "Robert Wilton -X (rwilton - ENSOFT LIMITED at Cisco)" <rwilton@cisco.com>,  Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "alexander.clemm@huawei.com" <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
CC: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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To: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" <timjenki@cisco.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
References: <A73981A5-7BAC-43D0-994D-591E117507C3@cisco.com>
From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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Hi Tim,


On 19/10/2017 19:33, Tim Jenkins (timjenki) wrote:
>
> Message: 4
>
> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 19:22:42 +0100
>
> From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com <mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>>
>
> To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com <mailto:evoit@cisco.com>>, 
> Martin Bjorklund
>
> <mbj@tail-f.com <mailto:mbj@tail-f.com>>,Â Â Juergen Schoenwaelder
>
> <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de 
> <mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>>, Kent Watsen
>
> <kwatsen@juniper.net <mailto:kwatsen@juniper.net>>, Henk Birkholz
>
> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>, "alexander.clemm@huawei.com 
> <mailto:alexander.clemm@huawei.com>"
>
> <alexander.clemm@huawei.com <mailto:alexander.clemm@huawei.com>>, 
> Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org <mailto:cabo@tzi.org>>
>
> Cc: "netconf@ietf.org <mailto:netconf@ietf.org>" <netconf@ietf.org 
> <mailto:netconf@ietf.org>>
>
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID
>
> (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else
>
> from the two week look?)
>
> Message-ID: <967d1ce6-6be7-5599-e2d6-cda411ab0689@cisco.com 
> <mailto:967d1ce6-6be7-5599-e2d6-cda411ab0689@cisco.com>>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> I think that my preference is still [D]: Use strings as the key for
>
> configured subscriptions and then numerical ids for the operational
>
> subscriptions (and only put the numeric ids into the messages).
>
> <Tim>
>
> I really do not want to implement something where the contents of the 
> update notification differ based on the type of subscription. At the 
> moment, the processing of a subscription, once it's been set up is 
> essentially identical between configured subscriptions and dynamic 
> subscriptions. It's only the control plane that is different, and I 
> think it's important that we keeop to that as much as possible.
>
I'm proposing that subscription-id stays as a uint32, but that a string 
based "subscription-name" is used as the list key for configured 
subscriptions.Â Â  When the system instantiates a configured subscription 
it would assign a numerical subscription id from the same value space as 
dynamic subscriptions (and make that available as an oper leaf, so that 
clients can look up the mapping from configured subscription name to 
assigned numerical subscription id if required).Â  It is the numerical 
subscription id that would be used in the notification messages.Â  In 
fact, with this solution the numerical subscription ids would all likely 
be small integers and hence encoded more compactly either in XML/JSON or 
CBOR/GPB

My perception is that the advantages are:
 Â - This has all the encoding benefits of using a number, more compact 
messages, and having the server assigning ids from a numerical space.
 Â - It has all the benefits of a string based name being easier/more 
flexible for clients to manage.
 Â - It avoids the issue of having to partition the subscription-id space 
between configured and dynamic subscriptions, since they are separate.

The disadvantages are:
 Â - it requires a separate schema tree for configured subscriptions vs 
operational subscriptions (i.e. pretty much as the schema is defined in 
the drafts today ...)
 Â - clients may need to look up the mapping from configured subscription 
name to numerical id.

> Further, in the above paragraph, what is the numeric ID that gets put 
> into the "messages", assuming messages means update notifications for 
> the configured subscriptions?
>
The system assigned numerical subscription id.Â  I.e. exactly the same as 
for dynamic subscriptions.

> I would also be very careful about referring to OpenConfig telemetry 
> as a good example of what to do. Our current experience with it is 
> that much of it is underspecified and very young.
>
Hum, OK.Â  Eric was using that as justification for using numerical ids 
for both configured and dynamic subscriptions, but I was just pointing 
out that this is not what OpenConfig model actually does ...

> I really do not think the advantages of a string subscription ID 
> outway the disadvantages either. For example, the exact issue of ID 
> partitioning. At least with integers we can say the upper half of the 
> space is reserved for dynamic subscriptions (or the odd values if we 
> want to encourage the use of small integers). But how do you guarantee 
> partitioning based on strings? Enforce that dynamic subscription IDs 
> start with "dyn" or "d" or something?
>
If you use a separate string space for the names of configured 
subscriptions then you have no ID partitioning required at all, since 
they are separate value spaces.

Thanks,
Rob


> </Tim>
>
> That is also how the OpenConfig telemetry module that you reference
>
> below works, i.e. strings for configured subscriptions and numerical ids
>
> for dynamic subscriptions:
>
> Â Â grouping telemetry-subscription-name-config {
>
> description
>
> "Configuration parameters relating to the configured
>
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â name of the telemetry subscription. The name is a user
>
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â configured string value which uniquely identifies the
>
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â subscription in the configuration database.";
>
> Â Â Â Â Â Â leaf subscription-name {
>
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â type string;
>
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â description
>
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â "User configured identifier of the telemetry
>
> subscription. This value is used primarily for
>
> subscriptions configured locally on the network
>
> element.";
>
> Â Â Â Â Â Â }
>
> Â Â  }
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rob
>
> On 19/10/2017 18:12, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
>
>     Trying to summarize for readability.Â Â I have articulated a few
>     more advantages to Integer, please feel free to let me know items
>     I missed for String.
>
>     [A]Â Â Integer
>
>     *********
>
>     (A1) Efficiency of notification message processing: Comparing two
>     numbers is magnitudes faster than comparing two strings
>     (representing the same numbers). Sorting and forwarding of
>     incoming messages on the receiver so that they go to the right
>     requesting application will be faster.
>
>     (A2) Size: A subscription id based on characters will be larger
>     than transport based on integer. As we have IoT drafts relating to
>     CBOR, we should look at efficiency.
>
>     (A3) Easier to automatically generate IDs for dynamic
>     subscriptions.Â Â Enables easier conventions for sequential issuance
>     of subscription-ids which can then be interpreted by subscriber
>
>     (A4) Can augment (or add now in the base model) a leaf containing
>     a string definition of a configured subscription.Â Â This string
>     would be passed as part of the "subscription-started"
>     notification, so there would be no need to query the publisher for
>     a meaning.Â Â Greater verbosity and redundancy in text definitions
>     would then both be allowed.Â Â This text only need be passed once,
>     and can be safely ignored by the receiver implementations.
>
>     (A5) Low power IoT receivers.Â Â Â Â Many small receivers of the same
>     subscription might consume the same feed with a minimally sized,
>     easier to process header. (Henk can provide sources for the use
>     cases here.)
>
>     (A6) Subscription ID in the OpenConfig.yang model is also an
>     integer (uint64)
>
>     See line 584 of:
>     https://github.com/openconfig/public/blob/master/release/models/telemetry/openconfig-telemetry.yang
>
>     Implementations supporting both model exposures will need to worry
>     less about mapping.
>
>     [B] String
>
>     ********
>
>     (B1) Easier to read and understand the sub-domain segmentation of
>     the subscription-id space, as well as the creation of new sub-domains
>
>     (B2) If Kent's question on the possibility of encoding frequently
>     sent text fields in CBOR as integer comes back as viable, then the
>     Size advantages of [A] go away
>
>     [C] union of integer and string.
>
>     *************************
>
>     As there are additional processing requirements in the receiver
>     and key issues in the publisher, this would seem to have
>     processing inefficiencies.Â Â Does anyone want to argue for this?
>
>     Eric
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Netconf mailing list
>
> Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Netconf Digest, Vol 116, Issue 65
>
> ****************************************
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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    <p>Hi Tim,<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 19/10/2017 19:33, Tim Jenkins
      (timjenki) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:A73981A5-7BAC-43D0-994D-591E117507C3@cisco.com">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
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/* Style Definitions */
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	{margin:0cm;
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Message: 4<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Date: Thu, 19
            Oct 2017 19:22:42 +0100<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">From: Robert
            Wilton &lt;<a href="mailto:rwilton@cisco.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">To: "Eric Voit
            (evoit)" &lt;<a href="mailto:evoit@cisco.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">evoit@cisco.com</a>&gt;, Martin
            Bjorklund<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
              class="apple-tab-span">Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
            </span>&lt;<a href="mailto:mbj@tail-f.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">mbj@tail-f.com</a>&gt;,Â Â Juergen
            Schoenwaelder<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
              class="apple-tab-span">Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
            </span>&lt;<a
              href="mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de"
              moz-do-not-send="true">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt;,
            Kent Watsen<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
              class="apple-tab-span">Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
            </span>&lt;<a href="mailto:kwatsen@juniper.net"
              moz-do-not-send="true">kwatsen@juniper.net</a>&gt;, Henk
            Birkholz<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
              class="apple-tab-span">Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
            </span>&lt;<a href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de"
              moz-do-not-send="true">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;,
            "<a href="mailto:alexander.clemm@huawei.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">alexander.clemm@huawei.com</a>"<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
              class="apple-tab-span">Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
            </span>&lt;<a href="mailto:alexander.clemm@huawei.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">alexander.clemm@huawei.com</a>&gt;,
            Carsten Bormann &lt;<a href="mailto:cabo@tzi.org"
              moz-do-not-send="true">cabo@tzi.org</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Cc: "<a
              href="mailto:netconf@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">netconf@ietf.org</a>"
            &lt;<a href="mailto:netconf@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">netconf@ietf.org</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Subject: Re:
            [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
              class="apple-tab-span">Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
            </span>(was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications,
            anything else<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
              class="apple-tab-span">Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
            </span>from the two week look?)<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Message-ID:
            &lt;<a
              href="mailto:967d1ce6-6be7-5599-e2d6-cda411ab0689@cisco.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">967d1ce6-6be7-5599-e2d6-cda411ab0689@cisco.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Content-Type:
            text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">I think that
            my preference is still [D]: Use strings as the key for
            <o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">configured
            subscriptions and then numerical ids for the operational
            <o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">subscriptions
            (and only put the numeric ids into the messages).<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&lt;Tim&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">I really do not want to implement
            something where the contents of the update notification
            differ based on the type of subscription. At the moment, the
            processing of a subscription, once it's been set up is
            essentially identical between configured subscriptions and
            dynamic subscriptions. It's only the control plane that is
            different, and I think it's important that we keeop to that
            as much as possible.</p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    I'm proposing that subscription-id stays as a uint32, but that a
    string based "subscription-name" is used as the list key for
    configured subscriptions.Â Â  When the system instantiates a
    configured subscription it would assign a numerical subscription id
    from the same value space as dynamic subscriptions (and make that
    available as an oper leaf, so that clients can look up the mapping
    from configured subscription name to assigned numerical subscription
    id if required).Â  It is the numerical subscription id that would be
    used in the notification messages.Â  In fact, with this solution the
    numerical subscription ids would all likely be small integers and
    hence encoded more compactly either in XML/JSON or CBOR/GPB<br>
    <br>
    My perception is that the advantages are:<br>
    Â - This has all the encoding benefits of using a number, more
    compact messages, and having the server assigning ids from a
    numerical space.<br>
    Â - It has all the benefits of a string based name being easier/more
    flexible for clients to manage.<br>
    Â - It avoids the issue of having to partition the subscription-id
    space between configured and dynamic subscriptions, since they are
    separate.<br>
    <br>
    The disadvantages are:<br>
    Â - it requires a separate schema tree for configured subscriptions
    vs operational subscriptions (i.e. pretty much as the schema is
    defined in the drafts today ...)<br>
    Â - clients may need to look up the mapping from configured
    subscription name to numerical id.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:A73981A5-7BAC-43D0-994D-591E117507C3@cisco.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Further, in the above paragraph, what is
            the numeric ID that gets put into the "messages", assuming
            messages means update notifications for the configured
            subscriptions?</p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    The system assigned numerical subscription id.Â  I.e. exactly the
    same as for dynamic subscriptions.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:A73981A5-7BAC-43D0-994D-591E117507C3@cisco.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">I would also be very careful about
            referring to OpenConfig telemetry as a good example of what
            to do. Our current experience with it is that much of it is
            underspecified and very young.</p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    Hum, OK.Â  Eric was using that as justification for using numerical
    ids for both configured and dynamic subscriptions, but I was just
    pointing out that this is not what OpenConfig model actually does
    ... <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:A73981A5-7BAC-43D0-994D-591E117507C3@cisco.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">I really do not think the advantages of a
            string subscription ID outway the disadvantages either. For
            example, the exact issue of ID partitioning. At least with
            integers we can say the upper half of the space is reserved
            for dynamic subscriptions (or the odd values if we want to
            encourage the use of small integers). But how do you
            guarantee partitioning based on strings? Enforce that
            dynamic subscription IDs start with "dyn" or "d" or
            something?</p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    If you use a separate string space for the names of configured
    subscriptions then you have no ID partitioning required at all,
    since they are separate value spaces.<br>
    <br>
    Thanks,<br>
    Rob<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:A73981A5-7BAC-43D0-994D-591E117507C3@cisco.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">&lt;/Tim&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">That is also
            how the OpenConfig telemetry module that you reference
            <o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">below works,
            i.e. strings for configured subscriptions and numerical ids
            <o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">for dynamic
            subscriptions:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Â Â grouping
            telemetry-subscription-name-config {<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Â Â Â Â 
            description<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Â Â Â Â Â Â 
            "Configuration parameters relating to the configured<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â name
            of the telemetry subscription. The name is a user<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â configured
            string value which uniquely identifies the<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â subscription
            in the configuration database.";<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Â Â Â Â Â Â leaf
            subscription-name {<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â type
            string;<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â description<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â "User
            configured identifier of the telemetry<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
            subscription. This value is used primarily for<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
            subscriptions configured locally on the network<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
            element.";<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Â Â Â Â Â Â }<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Â Â  }<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Rob<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">On 19/10/2017
            18:12, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF
          4.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
          4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0cm"
          id="MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE">
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Trying to
              summarize for readability.Â Â I have articulated a few more
              advantages to Integer, please feel free to let me know
              items I missed for String.<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">[A]Â Â Integer<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">*********<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">(A1)
              Efficiency of notification message processing: Comparing
              two numbers is magnitudes faster than comparing two
              strings (representing the same numbers). Sorting and
              forwarding of incoming messages on the receiver so that
              they go to the right requesting application will be
              faster.<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">(A2) Size: A
              subscription id based on characters will be larger than
              transport based on integer. As we have IoT drafts relating
              to CBOR, we should look at efficiency.<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">(A3) Easier
              to automatically generate IDs for dynamic
              subscriptions.Â Â Enables easier conventions for sequential
              issuance of subscription-ids which can then be interpreted
              by subscriber<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">(A4) Can
              augment (or add now in the base model) a leaf containing a
              string definition of a configured subscription.Â Â This
              string would be passed as part of the
              "subscription-started" notification, so there would be no
              need to query the publisher for a meaning.Â Â Greater
              verbosity and redundancy in text definitions would then
              both be allowed.Â Â This text only need be passed once, and
              can be safely ignored by the receiver implementations.<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">(A5) Low
              power IoT receivers.Â Â Â Â Many small receivers of the same
              subscription might consume the same feed with a minimally
              sized, easier to process header. (Henk can provide sources
              for the use cases here.)<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">(A6)
              Subscription ID in the OpenConfig.yang model is also an
              integer (uint64)<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">See line 584
              of: <a
href="https://github.com/openconfig/public/blob/master/release/models/telemetry/openconfig-telemetry.yang"
                moz-do-not-send="true">
https://github.com/openconfig/public/blob/master/release/models/telemetry/openconfig-telemetry.yang</a><o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Implementations
              supporting both model exposures will need to worry less
              about mapping.<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">[B] String<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">********<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">(B1) Easier
              to read and understand the sub-domain segmentation of the
              subscription-id space, as well as the creation of new
              sub-domains<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">(B2) If
              Kent's question on the possibility of encoding frequently
              sent text fields in CBOR as integer comes back as viable,
              then the Size advantages of [A] go away<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">[C] union of
              integer and string.<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">*************************<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">As there are
              additional processing requirements in the receiver and key
              issues in the publisher, this would seem to have
              processing inefficiencies.Â Â Does anyone want to argue for
              this?<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Eric<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">------------------------------<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Subject:
            Digest Footer<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Netconf
            mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><a
              href="mailto:Netconf@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">Netconf@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><a
              href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf"
              moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a><o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">------------------------------<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">End of Netconf
            Digest, Vol 116, Issue 65<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">****************************************<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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To: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>, "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" <timjenki@cisco.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
References: <A73981A5-7BAC-43D0-994D-591E117507C3@cisco.com> <0b787065-10c4-dbef-a37d-1165cf1f74e2@cisco.com>
From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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Hi all,

a general comment - not intended to be a proposal - is this:

If,

and I understand the reasoning for putting:

> It avoids the issue of having to partition the subscription-id space between configured and dynamic subscriptions, since they are separate

into the "advantage category",

someone, who is considering to use only numbers to categorize two 
distinct ID spaces via a single value, could use a signed integer. There 
is some precedence for that in the IETF.

Again, this is just intended to be a comment to focus the discussion and 
not meant to be a proposal.

Viele GrÃ¼ÃŸe,

Henk

On 10/19/2017 10:05 PM, Robert Wilton wrote:
> Hi Tim,
> 
> 
> On 19/10/2017 19:33, Tim Jenkins (timjenki) wrote:
>>
>> Message: 4
>>
>> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 19:22:42 +0100
>>
>> From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com <mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>>
>>
>> To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com <mailto:evoit@cisco.com>>, 
>> Martin Bjorklund
>>
>> <mbj@tail-f.com <mailto:mbj@tail-f.com>>,Â Â Juergen Schoenwaelder
>>
>> <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de 
>> <mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>>, Kent Watsen
>>
>> <kwatsen@juniper.net <mailto:kwatsen@juniper.net>>, Henk Birkholz
>>
>> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>, "alexander.clemm@huawei.com 
>> <mailto:alexander.clemm@huawei.com>"
>>
>> <alexander.clemm@huawei.com <mailto:alexander.clemm@huawei.com>>, 
>> Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org <mailto:cabo@tzi.org>>
>>
>> Cc: "netconf@ietf.org <mailto:netconf@ietf.org>" <netconf@ietf.org 
>> <mailto:netconf@ietf.org>>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID
>>
>> (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else
>>
>> from the two week look?)
>>
>> Message-ID: <967d1ce6-6be7-5599-e2d6-cda411ab0689@cisco.com 
>> <mailto:967d1ce6-6be7-5599-e2d6-cda411ab0689@cisco.com>>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>>
>> I think that my preference is still [D]: Use strings as the key for
>>
>> configured subscriptions and then numerical ids for the operational
>>
>> subscriptions (and only put the numeric ids into the messages).
>>
>> <Tim>
>>
>> I really do not want to implement something where the contents of the 
>> update notification differ based on the type of subscription. At the 
>> moment, the processing of a subscription, once it's been set up is 
>> essentially identical between configured subscriptions and dynamic 
>> subscriptions. It's only the control plane that is different, and I 
>> think it's important that we keeop to that as much as possible.
>>
> I'm proposing that subscription-id stays as a uint32, but that a string 
> based "subscription-name" is used as the list key for configured 
> subscriptions.Â Â  When the system instantiates a configured subscription 
> it would assign a numerical subscription id from the same value space as 
> dynamic subscriptions (and make that available as an oper leaf, so that 
> clients can look up the mapping from configured subscription name to 
> assigned numerical subscription id if required).Â  It is the numerical 
> subscription id that would be used in the notification messages.Â  In 
> fact, with this solution the numerical subscription ids would all likely 
> be small integers and hence encoded more compactly either in XML/JSON or 
> CBOR/GPB
> 
> My perception is that the advantages are:
>  Â - This has all the encoding benefits of using a number, more compact 
> messages, and having the server assigning ids from a numerical space.
>  Â - It has all the benefits of a string based name being easier/more 
> flexible for clients to manage.
>  Â - It avoids the issue of having to partition the subscription-id space 
> between configured and dynamic subscriptions, since they are separate.
> 
> The disadvantages are:
>  Â - it requires a separate schema tree for configured subscriptions vs 
> operational subscriptions (i.e. pretty much as the schema is defined in 
> the drafts today ...)
>  Â - clients may need to look up the mapping from configured subscription 
> name to numerical id.
> 
>> Further, in the above paragraph, what is the numeric ID that gets put 
>> into the "messages", assuming messages means update notifications for 
>> the configured subscriptions?
>>
> The system assigned numerical subscription id.Â  I.e. exactly the same as 
> for dynamic subscriptions.
> 
>> I would also be very careful about referring to OpenConfig telemetry 
>> as a good example of what to do. Our current experience with it is 
>> that much of it is underspecified and very young.
>>
> Hum, OK.Â  Eric was using that as justification for using numerical ids 
> for both configured and dynamic subscriptions, but I was just pointing 
> out that this is not what OpenConfig model actually does ...
> 
>> I really do not think the advantages of a string subscription ID 
>> outway the disadvantages either. For example, the exact issue of ID 
>> partitioning. At least with integers we can say the upper half of the 
>> space is reserved for dynamic subscriptions (or the odd values if we 
>> want to encourage the use of small integers). But how do you guarantee 
>> partitioning based on strings? Enforce that dynamic subscription IDs 
>> start with "dyn" or "d" or something?
>>
> If you use a separate string space for the names of configured 
> subscriptions then you have no ID partitioning required at all, since 
> they are separate value spaces.
> 
> Thanks,
> Rob
> 
> 
>> </Tim>
>>
>> That is also how the OpenConfig telemetry module that you reference
>>
>> below works, i.e. strings for configured subscriptions and numerical ids
>>
>> for dynamic subscriptions:
>>
>> Â Â grouping telemetry-subscription-name-config {
>>
>> description
>>
>> "Configuration parameters relating to the configured
>>
>> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â name of the telemetry subscription. The name is a user
>>
>> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â configured string value which uniquely identifies the
>>
>> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â subscription in the configuration database.";
>>
>> Â Â Â Â Â Â leaf subscription-name {
>>
>> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â type string;
>>
>> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â description
>>
>> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â "User configured identifier of the telemetry
>>
>> subscription. This value is used primarily for
>>
>> subscriptions configured locally on the network
>>
>> element.";
>>
>> Â Â Â Â Â Â }
>>
>> Â Â  }
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Rob
>>
>> On 19/10/2017 18:12, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
>>
>>     Trying to summarize for readability.Â Â I have articulated a few
>>     more advantages to Integer, please feel free to let me know items
>>     I missed for String.
>>
>>     [A]Â Â Integer
>>
>>     *********
>>
>>     (A1) Efficiency of notification message processing: Comparing two
>>     numbers is magnitudes faster than comparing two strings
>>     (representing the same numbers). Sorting and forwarding of
>>     incoming messages on the receiver so that they go to the right
>>     requesting application will be faster.
>>
>>     (A2) Size: A subscription id based on characters will be larger
>>     than transport based on integer. As we have IoT drafts relating to
>>     CBOR, we should look at efficiency.
>>
>>     (A3) Easier to automatically generate IDs for dynamic
>>     subscriptions.Â Â Enables easier conventions for sequential issuance
>>     of subscription-ids which can then be interpreted by subscriber
>>
>>     (A4) Can augment (or add now in the base model) a leaf containing
>>     a string definition of a configured subscription.Â Â This string
>>     would be passed as part of the "subscription-started"
>>     notification, so there would be no need to query the publisher for
>>     a meaning.Â Â Greater verbosity and redundancy in text definitions
>>     would then both be allowed.Â Â This text only need be passed once,
>>     and can be safely ignored by the receiver implementations.
>>
>>     (A5) Low power IoT receivers.Â Â Â Â Many small receivers of the same
>>     subscription might consume the same feed with a minimally sized,
>>     easier to process header. (Henk can provide sources for the use
>>     cases here.)
>>
>>     (A6) Subscription ID in the OpenConfig.yang model is also an
>>     integer (uint64)
>>
>>     See line 584 of:
>>     https://github.com/openconfig/public/blob/master/release/models/telemetry/openconfig-telemetry.yang
>>
>>     Implementations supporting both model exposures will need to worry
>>     less about mapping.
>>
>>     [B] String
>>
>>     ********
>>
>>     (B1) Easier to read and understand the sub-domain segmentation of
>>     the subscription-id space, as well as the creation of new sub-domains
>>
>>     (B2) If Kent's question on the possibility of encoding frequently
>>     sent text fields in CBOR as integer comes back as viable, then the
>>     Size advantages of [A] go away
>>
>>     [C] union of integer and string.
>>
>>     *************************
>>
>>     As there are additional processing requirements in the receiver
>>     and key issues in the publisher, this would seem to have
>>     processing inefficiencies.Â Â Does anyone want to argue for this?
>>
>>     Eric
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Netconf mailing list
>>
>> Netconf@ietf.org <mailto:Netconf@ietf.org>
>>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> End of Netconf Digest, Vol 116, Issue 65
>>
>> ****************************************
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Netconf mailing list
>> Netconf@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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From nobody Thu Oct 19 13:15:50 2017
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To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>,  Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "alexander.clemm@huawei.com" <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
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From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 21:15:28 +0100
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/b04F3-xamAUdktzvD5veP3Fqp1M>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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Hi Erik,


On 19/10/2017 20:48, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
> Hi Rob,
>
>> Robert Wilton, October 19, 2017 2:23 PM
>>
>> I think that my preference is still [D]: Use strings as the key for configured
>> subscriptions and then numerical ids for the operational subscriptions (and
>> only put the numeric ids into the messages).
> In that case, you still have to coordinate the numerics across the independent domains, or have independent objects used at the receiver for sorting different and distributing the different types of subscriptions updates to the desired application.
I'm not sure I get the distinction:

With a configured subscription I configure it with a name and look up a 
numerical subscription-id to manage the subscription with and demux 
notifications on.

With a configured subscription I create it with an RPC and get back a 
numerical subscription-id to manage the subscription with and demux 
notifications on.

Thanks,
Rob


>    
>   
>> That is also how the OpenConfig telemetry module that you reference below
>> works, i.e. strings for configured subscriptions and numerical ids for dynamic
>> subscriptions:
> Ahh.  I looked there for subscription-id, not subscription-name.   I didn't realize they had explicitly the split subscription instances with different keys!  This would seem to add much a complexity for system management, reporting, troubleshooting, etc.  Plus as per above, telemetry applications might have a blend of configured and dynamic subscriptions.  This doubles key software constructs.
>
> Eric
>
>>    grouping telemetry-subscription-name-config {
>>       description
>>         "Configuration parameters relating to the configured
>>          name of the telemetry subscription. The name is a user
>>          configured string value which uniquely identifies the
>>          subscription in the configuration database.";
>>
>>        leaf subscription-name {
>>          type string;
>>          description
>>            "User configured identifier of the telemetry
>>             subscription. This value is used primarily for
>>             subscriptions configured locally on the network
>>             element.";
>>        }
>>     }
>> Thanks,
>> Rob
>>
>>
>> On 19/10/2017 18:12, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
>>> Trying to summarize for readability.  I have articulated a few more
>> advantages to Integer, please feel free to let me know items I missed for String.
>>> [A]  Integer
>>> *********
>>> (A1) Efficiency of notification message processing: Comparing two numbers is
>> magnitudes faster than comparing two strings (representing the same
>> numbers). Sorting and forwarding of incoming messages on the receiver so
>> that they go to the right requesting application will be faster.
>>> (A2) Size: A subscription id based on characters will be larger than transport
>> based on integer. As we have IoT drafts relating to CBOR, we should look at
>> efficiency.
>>> (A3) Easier to automatically generate IDs for dynamic subscriptions.
>>> Enables easier conventions for sequential issuance of subscription-ids
>>> which can then be interpreted by subscriber
>>>
>>> (A4) Can augment (or add now in the base model) a leaf containing a string
>> definition of a configured subscription.  This string would be passed as part of
>> the "subscription-started" notification, so there would be no need to query the
>> publisher for a meaning.  Greater verbosity and redundancy in text definitions
>> would then both be allowed.  This text only need be passed once, and can be
>> safely ignored by the receiver implementations.
>>> (A5) Low power IoT receivers.    Many small receivers of the same
>> subscription might consume the same feed with a minimally sized, easier to
>> process header. (Henk can provide sources for the use cases here.)
>>> (A6) Subscription ID in the OpenConfig.yang model is also an integer
>>> (uint64) See line 584 of:
>>> https://github.com/openconfig/public/blob/master/release/models/teleme
>>> try/openconfig-telemetry.yang Implementations supporting both model
>>> exposures will need to worry less about mapping.
>>>
>>> [B] String
>>> ********
>>> (B1) Easier to read and understand the sub-domain segmentation of the
>>> subscription-id space, as well as the creation of new sub-domains
>>>
>>> (B2) If Kent's question on the possibility of encoding frequently sent
>>> text fields in CBOR as integer comes back as viable, then the Size
>>> advantages of [A] go away
>>>
>>> [C] union of integer and string.
>>> *************************
>>> As there are additional processing requirements in the receiver and key
>> issues in the publisher, this would seem to have processing inefficiencies.  Does
>> anyone want to argue for this?
>>> Eric
>>>


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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
CC: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] review of draft-ietf-netconf-ssh-client-server-03 and draft-ietf-netconf-tls-client-server-03
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] review of draft-ietf-netconf-ssh-client-server-03 and draft-ietf-netconf-tls-client-server-03
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Subject: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-tls-client-server-04.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : YANG Groupings for TLS Clients and TLS Servers
        Authors         : Kent Watsen
                          Gary Wu
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-tls-client-server-04.txt
	Pages           : 28
	Date            : 2017-10-19

Abstract:
   This document defines three YANG modules: the first defines groupings
   for a generic TLS client, the second defines groupings for a generic
   TLS server, and the third defines common identities and groupings
   used by both the client and the server.  It is intended that these
   groupings will be used by applications using the TLS protocol.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-tls-client-server/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-tls-client-server-04
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-tls-client-server-04

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netconf-tls-client-server-04


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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Subject: Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch-18.txt
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Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:
> BTW, regarding the 'choice' in yang-data, `pyang` continues to say:
> 
>   ietf-zerotouch-information@2017-10-19.yang:71: error: the 'yang-data'
>   extension must have exactly one child that is a container
> 
> But over the summer (when you were sailing, I think) we concluded
> that what the zerotouch draft is legal, as it does resolve to just
> a single container.  I've been meaning to circle back around with
> you on this...

I read that thread, and I think it is inconclusive.  I think the text
in RFC 8040 is quite clear:

          It MUST contain data definition statements
          that result in exactly one container data node definition.

The text does NOT say:

          It MUST contain data definition statements
          that result in exactly one container data node definition or
          a choice data node where each case contains exactly one
          container data node.

I agree that the latter would have worked equally well, but that's not
what the spec says.  I don't think we can change the spec in an
errata.

However, I think we should add 'yang-data' to Andy's
yang-data-augmentation draft, make this change there, and make that
draft a WG document (in NETMOD).


/martin


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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-tls-client-server-04.txt
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-tls-client-server-04.txt
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From: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>
To: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>,  Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
CC: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
Thread-Index: AQHTSQdJSBkkBOLZVk+zkHCHEqfTBaLsCbUAgAAHlwD//5dKcA==
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 21:05:45 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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From nobody Thu Oct 19 14:23:02 2017
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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, "Robert Wilton -X (rwilton - ENSOFT LIMITED at Cisco)" <rwilton@cisco.com>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
CC: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 21:22:56 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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From: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" <timjenki@cisco.com>
To: "Robert Wilton -X (rwilton - ENSOFT LIMITED at Cisco)" <rwilton@cisco.com>,  "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 21:26:25 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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--_000_4A01EFCCDD4643BFA3BAEC5ADBBD6F7Fciscocom_--


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To: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
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References: <3cedca7ae4e94e18b31c09397e50e6b0@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <967d1ce6-6be7-5599-e2d6-cda411ab0689@cisco.com> <5b4ccd1a7d884662af17dc465a856a36@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <d0dfcc3d-8d25-fadd-8310-f9a4d745d18a@cisco.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0EAB7A7A@sjceml521-mbx.china.huawei.com>
From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
Message-ID: <9e851514-3999-3b9f-1b3d-87611514f102@cisco.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 23:08:12 +0100
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/pbCwtBe10eYZmGLlLbBI9_Vk5ck>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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Hi Alex,


On 19/10/2017 22:05, Alexander Clemm wrote:
> Hi Rob,
>
> I think you meant to say "dynamic subscription" for the second case in your email below?
Yes.
>
> When creating a dynamic subscription, you invoke the <establish-subscription> RPC and get the subscription ID back as one of the output parameters.  It is the server that picks the identifier.
Yes.

>   
>
> A configured subscription is created using edit-config, not an RPC.  In that case, the client picks an identifier.
No, that is not what I'm proposing.

The client chooses a unique name for the subscription, the server 
allocates a unique subscription id.Â  I.e. exactly the same block of 
software that is assigning a subscription id to a dynamic subscription.

Thanks,
Rob


>    
> --- Alex
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Robert Wilton [mailto:rwilton@cisco.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2017 1:15 PM
>> To: Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com>; Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>;
>> Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>; Kent
>> Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>; Henk Birkholz
>> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Alexander Clemm
>> <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>; Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
>> Cc: netconf@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: [Netconf]
>> draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week
>> look?)
>>
>> Hi Erik,
>>
>>
>> On 19/10/2017 20:48, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
>>> Hi Rob,
>>>
>>>> Robert Wilton, October 19, 2017 2:23 PM
>>>>
>>>> I think that my preference is still [D]: Use strings as the key for
>>>> configured subscriptions and then numerical ids for the operational
>>>> subscriptions (and only put the numeric ids into the messages).
>>> In that case, you still have to coordinate the numerics across the
>> independent domains, or have independent objects used at the receiver for
>> sorting different and distributing the different types of subscriptions updates
>> to the desired application.
>> I'm not sure I get the distinction:
>>
>> With a configured subscription I configure it with a name and look up a
>> numerical subscription-id to manage the subscription with and demux
>> notifications on.
>>
>> With a configured subscription I create it with an RPC and get back a
>> numerical subscription-id to manage the subscription with and demux
>> notifications on.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Rob
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> That is also how the OpenConfig telemetry module that you reference
>>>> below works, i.e. strings for configured subscriptions and numerical
>>>> ids for dynamic
>>>> subscriptions:
>>> Ahh.  I looked there for subscription-id, not subscription-name.   I didn't
>> realize they had explicitly the split subscription instances with different keys!
>> This would seem to add much a complexity for system management,
>> reporting, troubleshooting, etc.  Plus as per above, telemetry applications
>> might have a blend of configured and dynamic subscriptions.  This doubles
>> key software constructs.
>>> Eric
>>>
>>>>     grouping telemetry-subscription-name-config {
>>>>        description
>>>>          "Configuration parameters relating to the configured
>>>>           name of the telemetry subscription. The name is a user
>>>>           configured string value which uniquely identifies the
>>>>           subscription in the configuration database.";
>>>>
>>>>         leaf subscription-name {
>>>>           type string;
>>>>           description
>>>>             "User configured identifier of the telemetry
>>>>              subscription. This value is used primarily for
>>>>              subscriptions configured locally on the network
>>>>              element.";
>>>>         }
>>>>      }
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Rob
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 19/10/2017 18:12, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
>>>>> Trying to summarize for readability.  I have articulated a few more
>>>> advantages to Integer, please feel free to let me know items I missed for
>> String.
>>>>> [A]  Integer
>>>>> *********
>>>>> (A1) Efficiency of notification message processing: Comparing two
>>>>> numbers is
>>>> magnitudes faster than comparing two strings (representing the same
>>>> numbers). Sorting and forwarding of incoming messages on the receiver
>>>> so that they go to the right requesting application will be faster.
>>>>> (A2) Size: A subscription id based on characters will be larger than
>>>>> transport
>>>> based on integer. As we have IoT drafts relating to CBOR, we should
>>>> look at efficiency.
>>>>> (A3) Easier to automatically generate IDs for dynamic subscriptions.
>>>>> Enables easier conventions for sequential issuance of
>>>>> subscription-ids which can then be interpreted by subscriber
>>>>>
>>>>> (A4) Can augment (or add now in the base model) a leaf containing a
>>>>> string
>>>> definition of a configured subscription.  This string would be passed
>>>> as part of the "subscription-started" notification, so there would be
>>>> no need to query the publisher for a meaning.  Greater verbosity and
>>>> redundancy in text definitions would then both be allowed.  This text
>>>> only need be passed once, and can be safely ignored by the receiver
>> implementations.
>>>>> (A5) Low power IoT receivers.    Many small receivers of the same
>>>> subscription might consume the same feed with a minimally sized,
>>>> easier to process header. (Henk can provide sources for the use cases
>>>> here.)
>>>>> (A6) Subscription ID in the OpenConfig.yang model is also an integer
>>>>> (uint64) See line 584 of:
>>>>>
>> https://github.com/openconfig/public/blob/master/release/models/tele
>>>>> me try/openconfig-telemetry.yang Implementations supporting both
>>>>> model exposures will need to worry less about mapping.
>>>>>
>>>>> [B] String
>>>>> ********
>>>>> (B1) Easier to read and understand the sub-domain segmentation of
>>>>> the subscription-id space, as well as the creation of new
>>>>> sub-domains
>>>>>
>>>>> (B2) If Kent's question on the possibility of encoding frequently
>>>>> sent text fields in CBOR as integer comes back as viable, then the
>>>>> Size advantages of [A] go away
>>>>>
>>>>> [C] union of integer and string.
>>>>> *************************
>>>>> As there are additional processing requirements in the receiver and
>>>>> key
>>>> issues in the publisher, this would seem to have processing
>>>> inefficiencies.  Does anyone want to argue for this?
>>>>> Eric
>>>>>


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To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
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References: <3cedca7ae4e94e18b31c09397e50e6b0@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <967d1ce6-6be7-5599-e2d6-cda411ab0689@cisco.com> <5b4ccd1a7d884662af17dc465a856a36@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <d0dfcc3d-8d25-fadd-8310-f9a4d745d18a@cisco.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0EAB7A7A@sjceml521-mbx.china.huawei.com> <899deee37e954d84bcabfa395cca585d@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com>
From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 23:28:02 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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Hi Eric,


On 19/10/2017 22:22, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
> Hi Alex,
> Hi Rob,
>
> What Alex says is true.   But my original point was about the receiver's handling of inbound notification messages containing subscribed content.
>
> If we have different object names for configured subscription and dynamic subscriptions (even if they both come across as integer), extra software structures are needed on the receiver to rectify this.
But I don't really agree on this point.Â  There will already be different 
client software to manage these given that configured subscriptions are 
managed through configuration and dynamic subscriptions are managed 
through RPCs.

But in terms of how the notifications are handled it can be identical 
for both cases (i.e. using the same code).Â  I.e demux from 
subscription-id to handling function.Â  In both dynamic and static 
configuration cases the client would need to learn what subscription-id 
has been allocated to the subscription by the publishing device.

>    The result is that we are imposing complexity to the receiver unnecessarily.
I would argue that we are removing complexity for the client by allowing 
them more freedom on how they name their subscriptions. The additional 
complexity is learning the mapping from "configured subscription name" 
to "system allocated subscription-id", but they require the same code 
for dynamic subscriptions anyway ...


>     This complexity can be eliminated with a unified address space under the control of the Publisher for both types of subscriptions.
In the solution that I propose there is a unified address space of 
numeric subscription-ids managed solely by the publisher.Â  But with the 
current scheme described in the drafts of using numerical ids for 
configured subscriptions then the ownership of the subscription-id 
address space is split between all clients and the single publisher, and 
it is this shared address space of numerical ids that I'm not that keen 
on, but like the efficiency of using numerical ids in the notification 
messages (and subsequent handling).

Or, comparing to the ACL YANG draft, do you think that it would be OK to 
use numerical ids to label each configured ACL rather than a string name?

Thanks,
Rob


>
> Eric
>
>> Hi Rob,
>>
>> I think you meant to say "dynamic subscription" for the second case in your
>> email below?
>>
>> When creating a dynamic subscription, you invoke the <establish-subscription>
>> RPC and get the subscription ID back as one of the output parameters.  It is the
>> server that picks the identifier.
>>
>> A configured subscription is created using edit-config, not an RPC.  In that case,
>> the client picks an identifier.
>> --- Alex
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Robert Wilton [mailto:rwilton@cisco.com]
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2017 1:15 PM
>>> To: Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com>; Martin Bjorklund
>>> <mbj@tail-f.com>; Juergen Schoenwaelder
>>> <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>; Kent Watsen
>>> <kwatsen@juniper.net>; Henk Birkholz
>>> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Alexander Clemm
>>> <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>; Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
>>> Cc: netconf@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE:
>>> [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else
>>> from the two week
>>> look?)
>>>
>>> Hi Erik,
>>>
>>>
>>> On 19/10/2017 20:48, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
>>>> Hi Rob,
>>>>
>>>>> Robert Wilton, October 19, 2017 2:23 PM
>>>>>
>>>>> I think that my preference is still [D]: Use strings as the key for
>>>>> configured subscriptions and then numerical ids for the operational
>>>>> subscriptions (and only put the numeric ids into the messages).
>>>> In that case, you still have to coordinate the numerics across the
>>> independent domains, or have independent objects used at the receiver
>>> for sorting different and distributing the different types of
>>> subscriptions updates to the desired application.
>>> I'm not sure I get the distinction:
>>>
>>> With a configured subscription I configure it with a name and look up
>>> a numerical subscription-id to manage the subscription with and demux
>>> notifications on.
>>>
>>> With a configured subscription I create it with an RPC and get back a
>>> numerical subscription-id to manage the subscription with and demux
>>> notifications on.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Rob
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> That is also how the OpenConfig telemetry module that you reference
>>>>> below works, i.e. strings for configured subscriptions and
>>>>> numerical ids for dynamic
>>>>> subscriptions:
>>>> Ahh.  I looked there for subscription-id, not subscription-name.   I didn't
>>> realize they had explicitly the split subscription instances with different keys!
>>> This would seem to add much a complexity for system management,
>>> reporting, troubleshooting, etc.  Plus as per above, telemetry
>>> applications might have a blend of configured and dynamic
>>> subscriptions.  This doubles key software constructs.
>>>> Eric
>>>>
>>>>>     grouping telemetry-subscription-name-config {
>>>>>        description
>>>>>          "Configuration parameters relating to the configured
>>>>>           name of the telemetry subscription. The name is a user
>>>>>           configured string value which uniquely identifies the
>>>>>           subscription in the configuration database.";
>>>>>
>>>>>         leaf subscription-name {
>>>>>           type string;
>>>>>           description
>>>>>             "User configured identifier of the telemetry
>>>>>              subscription. This value is used primarily for
>>>>>              subscriptions configured locally on the network
>>>>>              element.";
>>>>>         }
>>>>>      }
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Rob
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 19/10/2017 18:12, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
>>>>>> Trying to summarize for readability.  I have articulated a few
>>>>>> more
>>>>> advantages to Integer, please feel free to let me know items I
>>>>> missed for
>>> String.
>>>>>> [A]  Integer
>>>>>> *********
>>>>>> (A1) Efficiency of notification message processing: Comparing two
>>>>>> numbers is
>>>>> magnitudes faster than comparing two strings (representing the same
>>>>> numbers). Sorting and forwarding of incoming messages on the
>>>>> receiver so that they go to the right requesting application will be faster.
>>>>>> (A2) Size: A subscription id based on characters will be larger
>>>>>> than transport
>>>>> based on integer. As we have IoT drafts relating to CBOR, we should
>>>>> look at efficiency.
>>>>>> (A3) Easier to automatically generate IDs for dynamic subscriptions.
>>>>>> Enables easier conventions for sequential issuance of
>>>>>> subscription-ids which can then be interpreted by subscriber
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (A4) Can augment (or add now in the base model) a leaf containing
>>>>>> a string
>>>>> definition of a configured subscription.  This string would be
>>>>> passed as part of the "subscription-started" notification, so there
>>>>> would be no need to query the publisher for a meaning.  Greater
>>>>> verbosity and redundancy in text definitions would then both be
>>>>> allowed.  This text only need be passed once, and can be safely
>>>>> ignored by the receiver
>>> implementations.
>>>>>> (A5) Low power IoT receivers.    Many small receivers of the same
>>>>> subscription might consume the same feed with a minimally sized,
>>>>> easier to process header. (Henk can provide sources for the use
>>>>> cases
>>>>> here.)
>>>>>> (A6) Subscription ID in the OpenConfig.yang model is also an
>>>>>> integer
>>>>>> (uint64) See line 584 of:
>>>>>>
>>> https://github.com/openconfig/public/blob/master/release/models/tele
>>>>>> me try/openconfig-telemetry.yang Implementations supporting both
>>>>>> model exposures will need to worry less about mapping.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [B] String
>>>>>> ********
>>>>>> (B1) Easier to read and understand the sub-domain segmentation of
>>>>>> the subscription-id space, as well as the creation of new
>>>>>> sub-domains
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (B2) If Kent's question on the possibility of encoding frequently
>>>>>> sent text fields in CBOR as integer comes back as viable, then the
>>>>>> Size advantages of [A] go away
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [C] union of integer and string.
>>>>>> *************************
>>>>>> As there are additional processing requirements in the receiver
>>>>>> and key
>>>>> issues in the publisher, this would seem to have processing
>>>>> inefficiencies.  Does anyone want to argue for this?
>>>>>> Eric
>>>>>>


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From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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Hi Tim,

On 19/10/2017 22:26, Tim Jenkins (timjenki) wrote:
>
> *From: *"Robert Wilton -X (rwilton - ENSOFT LIMITED at Cisco)" 
> <rwilton@cisco.com>
> *Date: *Thursday, October 19, 2017 at 4:05 PM
> *To: *"Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" <timjenki@cisco.com>, 
> "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID 
> (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else 
> from the two week look?)
>
> Hi Tim,
>
> On 19/10/2017 19:33, Tim Jenkins (timjenki) wrote:
>
>     Message: 4
>
>     Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 19:22:42 +0100
>
>     From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com <mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>>
>
>     To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com
>     <mailto:evoit@cisco.com>>, Martin Bjorklund
>
>     <mbj@tail-f.com <mailto:mbj@tail-f.com>>,Â Â Juergen Schoenwaelder
>
>     <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de
>     <mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>>, Kent Watsen
>
>     <kwatsen@juniper.net <mailto:kwatsen@juniper.net>>, Henk Birkholz
>
>     <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de
>     <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>,
>     "alexander.clemm@huawei.com <mailto:alexander.clemm@huawei.com>"
>
>     <alexander.clemm@huawei.com <mailto:alexander.clemm@huawei.com>>,
>     Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org <mailto:cabo@tzi.org>>
>
>     Cc: "netconf@ietf.org <mailto:netconf@ietf.org>" <netconf@ietf.org
>     <mailto:netconf@ietf.org>>
>
>     Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID
>
>     (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else
>
>     from the two week look?)
>
>     Message-ID: <967d1ce6-6be7-5599-e2d6-cda411ab0689@cisco.com
>     <mailto:967d1ce6-6be7-5599-e2d6-cda411ab0689@cisco.com>>
>
>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
>     I think that my preference is still [D]: Use strings as the key for
>
>     configured subscriptions and then numerical ids for the operational
>
>     subscriptions (and only put the numeric ids into the messages).
>
>     <Tim>
>
>     I really do not want to implement something where the contents of
>     the update notification differ based on the type of subscription.
>     At the moment, the processing of a subscription, once it's been
>     set up is essentially identical between configured subscriptions
>     and dynamic subscriptions. It's only the control plane that is
>     different, and I think it's important that we keeop to that as
>     much as possible.
>
> I'm proposing that subscription-id stays as a uint32, but that a 
> string based "subscription-name" is used as the list key for 
> configured subscriptions.Â Â  When the system instantiates a configured 
> subscription it would assign a numerical subscription id from the same 
> value space as dynamic subscriptions (and make that available as an 
> oper leaf, so that clients can look up the mapping from configured 
> subscription name to assigned numerical subscription id if required).Â  
> It is the numerical subscription id that would be used in the 
> notification messages.Â  In fact, with this solution the numerical 
> subscription ids would all likely be small integers and hence encoded 
> more compactly either in XML/JSON or CBOR/GPB
>
> <Tim>
>
> If the subscription ID of the configured subscription is in the table 
> of configured subscriptions, it cannot have a system assigned value of 
> any type, if system is the publisher. All values in the configuration 
> table have to come from the configuration commands (the NETCONF 
> "edit-config"), other than defaults which are fixed in value. At 
> least, that's my understanding when I went through this discussion 
> many months ago.
>

There are two subscription tables (lists):

1) Configured subscription list, using a subscription name as a key.Â  
Each configured subscription would have a child config false leafref 
leaf to the subscription-id of the associated operational subscription.
2) Operational (config false) subscriptions list, using a numerical 
subscription id as a key.Â  This table contains all the operational 
properties of all subscriptions, i.e. both configured and dynamic.

> In any case, if it ends up there are two separate fields, one called 
> subscription-id, and the other subscription-name which is not sent in 
> update notification, why not just make the subscription-name a 
> subscsription-description field, and add that as a parameter to 
> "establish-subscription" and "modify-subscription"?
>
Because it forces management of the value space of the subscription-id 
to have to be shared between all clients and the publisher.

> Of course, if the publisher cannot provide the subscription-id for 
> configured subscriptions as mentioned above, then the ID space problem 
> is still right where we are.
>
With what I propose it is solved:
1) All configured subscription for a device must use a unique client 
specified name.Â  If there are multiple subscription clients then they 
must choose names that don't clash.
2) All operational subscriptions (configured and dynamic) are allocated 
a unique publishing device subscription-id.Â  The device can trivially 
allocate the ids from the sequence of positive integers.

Thanks,
Rob


> </Tim>
>


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    Hi Tim,<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 19/10/2017 22:26, Tim Jenkins
      (timjenki) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:4A01EFCC-DD46-43BF-A3BA-EC5ADBBD6F7F@cisco.com">
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
          1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><b><span
                style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
              </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">"Robert
              Wilton -X (rwilton - ENSOFT LIMITED at Cisco)"
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rwilton@cisco.com">&lt;rwilton@cisco.com&gt;</a><br>
              <b>Date: </b>Thursday, October 19, 2017 at 4:05 PM<br>
              <b>To: </b>"Tim Jenkins (timjenki)"
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:timjenki@cisco.com">&lt;timjenki@cisco.com&gt;</a>, <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:netconf@ietf.org">"netconf@ietf.org"</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:netconf@ietf.org">&lt;netconf@ietf.org&gt;</a><br>
              <b>Subject: </b>Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for
              Subscription ID (was RE:
              draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else
              from the two week look?)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        </div>
        <p style="margin-left:36.0pt">Hi Tim,<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">On 19/10/2017
            19:33, Tim Jenkins (timjenki) wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt">Message: 4<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt">Date: Thu,
              19 Oct 2017 19:22:42 +0100<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt">From: Robert
              Wilton &lt;<a href="mailto:rwilton@cisco.com"
                moz-do-not-send="true">rwilton@cisco.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt">To: "Eric
              Voit (evoit)" &lt;<a href="mailto:evoit@cisco.com"
                moz-do-not-send="true">evoit@cisco.com</a>&gt;, Martin
              Bjorklund<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span
                class="apple-tab-span">Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
              </span>&lt;<a href="mailto:mbj@tail-f.com"
                moz-do-not-send="true">mbj@tail-f.com</a>&gt;,Â Â Juergen
              Schoenwaelder<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span
                class="apple-tab-span">Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
              </span>&lt;<a
                href="mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de"
                moz-do-not-send="true">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt;,
              Kent Watsen<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span
                class="apple-tab-span">Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
              </span>&lt;<a href="mailto:kwatsen@juniper.net"
                moz-do-not-send="true">kwatsen@juniper.net</a>&gt;, Henk
              Birkholz<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span
                class="apple-tab-span">Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
              </span>&lt;<a
                href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de"
                moz-do-not-send="true">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;,
              "<a href="mailto:alexander.clemm@huawei.com"
                moz-do-not-send="true">alexander.clemm@huawei.com</a>"<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span
                class="apple-tab-span">Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
              </span>&lt;<a href="mailto:alexander.clemm@huawei.com"
                moz-do-not-send="true">alexander.clemm@huawei.com</a>&gt;,
              Carsten Bormann &lt;<a href="mailto:cabo@tzi.org"
                moz-do-not-send="true">cabo@tzi.org</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt">Cc: "<a
                href="mailto:netconf@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">netconf@ietf.org</a>"
              &lt;<a href="mailto:netconf@ietf.org"
                moz-do-not-send="true">netconf@ietf.org</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt">Subject: Re:
              [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span
                class="apple-tab-span">Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
              </span>(was RE:
              draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span
                class="apple-tab-span">Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
              </span>from the two week look?)<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt">Message-ID:
              &lt;<a
                href="mailto:967d1ce6-6be7-5599-e2d6-cda411ab0689@cisco.com"
                moz-do-not-send="true">967d1ce6-6be7-5599-e2d6-cda411ab0689@cisco.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt">Content-Type:
              text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt">I think that
              my preference is still [D]: Use strings as the key for
              <o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt">configured
              subscriptions and then numerical ids for the operational
              <o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt">subscriptions
              (and only put the numeric ids into the messages).<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt">Â <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">&lt;Tim&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">I really do
              not want to implement something where the contents of the
              update notification differ based on the type of
              subscription. At the moment, the processing of a
              subscription, once it's been set up is essentially
              identical between configured subscriptions and dynamic
              subscriptions. It's only the control plane that is
              different, and I think it's important that we keeop to
              that as much as possible.<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt">I'm proposing
          that subscription-id stays as a uint32, but that a string
          based "subscription-name" is used as the list key for
          configured subscriptions.Â Â  When the system instantiates a
          configured subscription it would assign a numerical
          subscription id from the same value space as dynamic
          subscriptions (and make that available as an oper leaf, so
          that clients can look up the mapping from configured
          subscription name to assigned numerical subscription id if
          required).Â  It is the numerical subscription id that would be
          used in the notification messages.Â  In fact, with this
          solution the numerical subscription ids would all likely be
          small integers and hence encoded more compactly either in
          XML/JSON or CBOR/GPB<br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">&lt;Tim&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">If the subscription ID of the configured
          subscription is in the table of configured subscriptions, it
          cannot have a system assigned value of any type, if system is
          the publisher. All values in the configuration table have to
          come from the configuration commands (the NETCONF
          "edit-config"), other than defaults which are fixed in value.
          At least, that's my understanding when I went through this
          discussion many months ago.</p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    There are two subscription tables (lists):<br>
    <br>
    1) Configured subscription list, using a subscription name as a
    key.Â  Each configured subscription would have a child config false
    leafref leaf to the subscription-id of the associated operational
    subscription.<br>
    2) Operational (config false) subscriptions list, using a numerical
    subscription id as a key.Â  This table contains all the operational
    properties of all subscriptions, i.e. both configured and dynamic.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:4A01EFCC-DD46-43BF-A3BA-EC5ADBBD6F7F@cisco.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">In any case, if it ends up there are two
          separate fields, one called subscription-id, and the other
          subscription-name which is not sent in update notification,
          why not just make the subscription-name a
          subscsription-description field, and add that as a parameter
          to "establish-subscription" and "modify-subscription"?</p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    Because it forces management of the value space of the
    subscription-id to have to be shared between all clients and the
    publisher.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:4A01EFCC-DD46-43BF-A3BA-EC5ADBBD6F7F@cisco.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Of course, if the publisher cannot provide
          the subscription-id for configured subscriptions as mentioned
          above, then the ID space problem is still right where we are.</p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    With what I propose it is solved:<br>
    1) All configured subscription for a device must use a unique client
    specified name.Â  If there are multiple subscription clients then
    they must choose names that don't clash. <br>
    2) All operational subscriptions (configured and dynamic) are
    allocated a unique publishing device subscription-id.Â  The device
    can trivially allocate the ids from the sequence of positive
    integers.<br>
    <br>
    Thanks,<br>
    Rob<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:4A01EFCC-DD46-43BF-A3BA-EC5ADBBD6F7F@cisco.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">&lt;/Tim&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------52548E4873964645E2EEC510--


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "Robert Wilton -X (rwilton - ENSOFT LIMITED at Cisco)" <rwilton@cisco.com>,  Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, "Martin Bjorklund" <mbj@tail-f.com>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
CC: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
Thread-Index: AQHTSQdC+hW161S8yEGdA2o/YKru86Lrj/9QgABPAwCAAA4MgP//v8SQgABXOgD//+EKkA==
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 01:09:25 +0000
Message-ID: <a9c87707ca7b4e6985b296269a0d4041@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com>
References: <3cedca7ae4e94e18b31c09397e50e6b0@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <967d1ce6-6be7-5599-e2d6-cda411ab0689@cisco.com> <5b4ccd1a7d884662af17dc465a856a36@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <d0dfcc3d-8d25-fadd-8310-f9a4d745d18a@cisco.com> <644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0EAB7A7A@sjceml521-mbx.china.huawei.com> <899deee37e954d84bcabfa395cca585d@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <97fbdf99-0adf-6236-901a-3c107cc1055b@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
CC: "henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "alexander.clemm@huawei.com" <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" <timjenki@cisco.com>, "kwatsen@juniper.net" <kwatsen@juniper.net>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Martin's thoughts on subscribed-notifications
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Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 03:17:23 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Martin's thoughts on subscribed-notifications
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--_007_cb6f9b4d803040f3a0ff4e14e6f796cdXCHRTP013ciscocom_--


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 04:57:38 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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From nobody Fri Oct 20 00:13:25 2017
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Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 09:13:17 +0200 (CEST)
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To: evoit@cisco.com
Cc: rwilton@cisco.com, alexander.clemm@huawei.com, j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de, kwatsen@juniper.net, henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de, cabo@tzi.org, netconf@ietf.org
From: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID
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Hi,

I prefer Rob's proposal (C).  It aligns with other models for
configuration, and solves the dual value space issue.


/martin



"Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
> Re-summarizing based on discussions.  =

> =

> [A]  Integer
> *********
> (A1)  + Efficiency of notification message processing: =

> =

> (A2)  + Message Size: =

> =

> (A3)  + Easier to automatically generate IDs for dynamic subscription=
s
> =

> (A4)  + Addition of a leaf containing an optional string definition o=
f a configured subscription.  This string would be passed as part of th=
e "subscription-started" notification.
> =

> (A5)  + Low power IoT receivers.    Many small receivers of the same =
subscription might consume the same feed with a minimally sized, easier=
 to process header. (Henk can provide sources for the use cases here.) =
 =

> =

> (A6)  - Dividing the integer space in two (can consider Henk's option=
 of moving from uint32 to int32, and requiring configured subscriptions=
 to use negative numbers.)
> =

> =

> [B] String
> ********
> (B1)  + Easier to read and understand the sub-domain segmentation of =
the subscription-id space, as well as the creation of new sub-domains
> =

> (B2)  -  Loss of transport efficiencies in IoT as CBOR does not curre=
ntly support the compression of frequently used strings to integer.
> =

> =

> [C] string for config, integer for dynamic, integer on wire  =

> **********************************************
> (C1) ++++ four of the advantages of [A]: (A1), (A2), (A3), (A5)
> =

> (C2) - use of different tables for different object names in receiver=

> =

> (C3) - automated subscription correlation across different receivers =
a little more complex as the automatically assigned integer wouldn't be=
 the same across publishers.   Could still derive it from "subscription=
-started" notification.
> =

> (C4) - some state change notifications become more complex as they mu=
st support different types of subscription ids within the notification =
(subscription-suspended, subscription-resumed, subscription-terminated,=
 replay-completed.)
> =

> =

> =

> Eric
> =

> =

> > From: Robert Wilton, October 19, 2017 6:28 PM
> > =

> > Hi Eric,
> > =

> > =

> > On 19/10/2017 22:22, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
> > > Hi Alex,
> > > Hi Rob,
> > >
> > > What Alex says is true.   But my original point was about the rec=
eiver's
> > handling of inbound notification messages containing subscribed con=
tent.
> > >
> > > If we have different object names for configured subscription and=
 dynamic
> > subscriptions (even if they both come across as integer), extra sof=
tware
> > structures are needed on the receiver to rectify this.
> > But I don't really agree on this point.=A0 There will already be di=
fferent client
> > software to manage these given that configured subscriptions are ma=
naged
> > through configuration and dynamic subscriptions are managed through=
 RPCs.
> > =

> > But in terms of how the notifications are handled it can be identic=
al for both
> > cases (i.e. using the same code).=A0 I.e demux from subscription-id=
 to handling
> > function.=A0 In both dynamic and static configuration cases the cli=
ent would need
> > to learn what subscription-id has been allocated to the subscriptio=
n by the
> > publishing device.
> > =

> > >    The result is that we are imposing complexity to the receiver =
unnecessarily.
> > I would argue that we are removing complexity for the client by all=
owing them
> > more freedom on how they name their subscriptions. The additional
> > complexity is learning the mapping from "configured subscription na=
me"
> > to "system allocated subscription-id", but they require the same co=
de for
> > dynamic subscriptions anyway ...
> > =

> > =

> > >     This complexity can be eliminated with a unified address spac=
e under the
> > control of the Publisher for both types of subscriptions.
> > In the solution that I propose there is a unified address space of =
numeric
> > subscription-ids managed solely by the publisher.=A0 But with the c=
urrent scheme
> > described in the drafts of using numerical ids for configured subsc=
riptions then
> > the ownership of the subscription-id address space is split between=
 all clients
> > and the single publisher, and it is this shared address space of nu=
merical ids
> > that I'm not that keen on, but like the efficiency of using numeric=
al ids in the
> > notification messages (and subsequent handling).
> > =

> > Or, comparing to the ACL YANG draft, do you think that it would be =
OK to use
> > numerical ids to label each configured ACL rather than a string nam=
e?
> > =

> > Thanks,
> > Rob
> > =

> <snip>
> =


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To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, "netconf-chairs@ietf.org" <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, Alberto Gonzalez Prieto <alberto.gonzalezprieto@yahoo.com>, "Einar Nilsen-Nygaard (einarnn)" <einarnn@cisco.com>, "Ambika Prasad Tripathy Tripathy (ambtripa)" <ambtripa@cisco.com>, "Zhengguangying (Walker) (zhengguangying@huawei.com)" <zhengguangying@huawei.com>
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References: <cb73cc6f3760425d93e587bddb1a44ba@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com>
From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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Hi Eric,

One more thing that I noticed is that the drafts state that XML encoding 
is mandatory, E.g. draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push, sec 3.5 and sort of 
also draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications sec 4.1

I don't think that it should restrict this.Â  JSON appears to be 
generally more in vogue than XML, binary encodings may be very desirable 
as well,Â  and an IOT device might not want to have to support XML if 
they will always use CBOR (or do they implement a different standard in 
that case)?.

Note that this discussion also came up when RESTCONF was being 
standardized, and the final text related to this in RFC 8040 is:

    Content is encoded in either JSON or XML format.  A server MUST
    support one of either XML or JSON encoding.  A server MAY support
    both XML and JSON encoding.  A client will need to support both XML
    and JSON to interoperate with all RESTCONF servers.

Perhaps a similar approach would work for these drafts as well?

Thanks,
Rob


On 19/10/2017 02:12, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
>
> Thanks everyone who has commented on 
> draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications so far during the two week 
> focused review.Â Â  I believe the changes discussed on and agreed to on 
> this list so far are embedded in a preliminary version of v06 which is 
> located at:
>
> https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/blob/master/draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-06.txt 
>
>
> (Many thanks to Martin.Â  I do need to triple check to see that I got 
> all of the agreements with Martin covered, but I think I did.)
>
> This leaves the following, please let me know if I have missed 
> anything or if you have something new:
>
> (1) Source VRF or leafref to ietf-network-instance
>
> https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/issues/5
>
> Summary: to identify the source VRF, do we do (i) a leafref to the 
> ietf-network-instance model, or (ii) use the string data type for 
> route distinguisher and route target as defined in 
> draft-ietf-rtgwg-routing-types.
>
> Recommendation (ii) as this will be far closer to what implementers 
> will be doing for the foreseeable future.Â  But I could live with (i) 
> even though I am not sure anyone is implementing it (which results in 
> unnecessary vendor augmentations), and it creates an unnecessary 
> dependency on schema mount.
>
> (2) Configured Subscriptions - Protocol, Encoding
>
> https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/issues/4
>
> Summary: Should the transport protocol and the encoding should be the 
> same for all configured receivers of a single subscription?
>
> Recommendation: encoding should stay the same for all receivers, but 
> transport should be allow to vary be receiver.Â  Reasoning: Â encoding 
> is a publisher function, and unlikely to vary.Â  Transport is dependent 
> somewhat on the receiver capabilities, and allowing variation here 
> enables seamless incremental conversion of receivers and the ability 
> to have the same configured subscription-id available to correlate 
> across receivers using different transports.
>
> (3) Properly documenting the eventual move from 5277 one way 
> notifications to subscribed-messages
>
> https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/issues/3
>
> Summary: I think that this issue is not a barrier to WGLC as the 
> current draft removes any normative reference to the new 
> notification-messages draft, and acknowledges that we should update 
> this document when notification-messages completes.
>
> (4) Martin is also asking that a subscription identifier to be a 
> string rather than an integer.Â Â  While this is technically open 
> between Martin & I, I believe the case is very strong for integerÂ  -- 
> so much so that my belief is that Â this need not be turned into a 
> formal issue.Â  Look for othersâ€™ opinions on the alias and chime in.Â  
> If anyone else strongly feels â€œstringâ€ is the right way to go, we can 
> certainly create an issue to track.
>
> Beyond that:
>
> - There are other minor comments which are hopefully in their last 
> stages with Martin
>
> - There are comments of Martinâ€™s on this document which will drive 
> some revised content into 
> draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications. (Headâ€™s up Alberto ;-)
>
> - I plan on integrating Timâ€™s suggestion that we have a separate 
> receivers container for configured subscriptions.Â  As I am not hearing 
> any issues from people (other than a little more complexity) I will 
> add that in tomorrow.
>
> Robert also has an umbrella question on the draft set dependency to 
> notification-messages. (I.e., Not specific to this draft.)Â  As we have 
> multiple known implementations of YANG push over NETCONF, it will be 
> quite a while before notification-messages solidifies, and we need to 
> chunk this rather large set of work, I am hoping this too resolves 
> quickly.
>
> Thanks,
> Eric
>
> . 


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<html>
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    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
  </head>
  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    <p>Hi Eric,</p>
    <p>One more thing that I noticed is that the drafts state that XML
      encoding is mandatory, E.g. draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push, sec 3.5
      and sort of also draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications sec
      4.1<br>
    </p>
    <p>I don't think that it should restrict this.Â  JSON appears to be
      generally more in vogue than XML, binary encodings may be very
      desirable as well,Â  and an IOT device might not want to have to
      support XML if they will always use CBOR (or do they implement a
      different standard in that case)?.</p>
    <p>Note that this discussion also came up when RESTCONF was being
      standardized, and the final text related to this in RFC 8040 is:<br>
    </p>
    <pre class="newpage" style="font-size: 13.3333px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">   Content is encoded in either JSON or XML format.  A server MUST
   support one of either XML or JSON encoding.  A server MAY support
   both XML and JSON encoding.  A client will need to support both XML
   and JSON to interoperate with all RESTCONF servers.

</pre>
    Perhaps a similar approach would work for these drafts as well?<br>
    <br>
    Thanks,<br>
    Rob<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 19/10/2017 02:12, Eric Voit (evoit)
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:cb73cc6f3760425d93e587bddb1a44ba@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com">
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal">Thanks everyone who has commented on
          draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications so far during the
          two week focused review.Â Â  I believe the changes discussed on
          and agreed to on this list so far are embedded in a
          preliminary version of v06 which is located at:<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/blob/master/draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-06.txt"
            moz-do-not-send="true">https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/blob/master/draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-06.txt</a>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">(Many thanks to Martin.Â  I do need to
          triple check to see that I got all of the agreements with
          Martin covered, but I think I did.)<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">This leaves the following, please let me
          know if I have missed anything or if you have something new:<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">(1) Source VRF or leafref to
          ietf-network-instance<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><a
            href="https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/issues/5"
            moz-do-not-send="true">https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/issues/5</a><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Summary: to identify the source VRF, do we
          do (i) a leafref to the ietf-network-instance model, or (ii)
          use the string data type for route distinguisher and route
          target as defined in draft-ietf-rtgwg-routing-types.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Recommendation (ii) as this will be far
          closer to what implementers will be doing for the foreseeable
          future.Â  But I could live with (i) even though I am not sure
          anyone is implementing it (which results in unnecessary vendor
          augmentations), and it creates an unnecessary dependency on
          schema mount.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">(2) Configured Subscriptions - Protocol,
          Encoding<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><a
            href="https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/issues/4"
            moz-do-not-send="true">https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/issues/4</a>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Summary: Should the transport protocol and
          the encoding should be the same for all configured receivers
          of a single subscription?<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Recommendation: encoding should stay the
          same for all receivers, but transport should be allow to vary
          be receiver.Â  Reasoning: Â encoding is a publisher function,
          and unlikely to vary.Â  Transport is dependent somewhat on the
          receiver capabilities, and allowing variation here enables
          seamless incremental conversion of receivers and the ability
          to have the same configured subscription-id available to
          correlate across receivers using different transports.
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">(3) Properly documenting the eventual move
          from 5277 one way notifications to subscribed-messages<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><a
            href="https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/issues/3"
            moz-do-not-send="true">https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/issues/3</a>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Summary: I think that this issue is not a
          barrier to WGLC as the current draft removes any normative
          reference to the new notification-messages draft, and
          acknowledges that we should update this document when
          notification-messages completes.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">(4) Martin is also asking that a
          subscription identifier to be a string rather than an
          integer.Â Â  While this is technically open between Martin &amp;
          I, I believe the case is very strong for integerÂ  -- so much
          so that my belief is that Â this need not be turned into a
          formal issue.Â  Look for othersâ€™ opinions on the alias and
          chime in.Â  If anyone else strongly feels â€œstringâ€ is the right
          way to go, we can certainly create an issue to track.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Beyond that:<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">- There are other minor comments which are
          hopefully in their last stages with Martin<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">- There are comments of Martinâ€™s on this
          document which will drive some revised content into
          draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications. (Headâ€™s up
          Alberto ;-)<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">- I plan on integrating Timâ€™s suggestion
          that we have a separate receivers container for configured
          subscriptions.Â  As I am not hearing any issues from people
          (other than a little more complexity) I will add that in
          tomorrow.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Robert also has an umbrella question on the
          draft set dependency to notification-messages. (I.e., Not
          specific to this draft.)Â  As we have multiple known
          implementations of YANG push over NETCONF, it will be quite a
          while before notification-messages solidifies, and we need to
          chunk this rather large set of work, I am hoping this too
          resolves quickly.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,<br>
          Eric<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>Â </o:p></p>
      </div>
      .
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/w952ZuWv_s_kDqH4GDn95L-lEg4>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2017 2:09 AM

A is efficient, B is verbose, C is complicated (sort of)..

I prefer A .

Tom Petch

> Re-summarizing based on discussions.
>
> [A]  Integer
> *********
> (A1)  + Efficiency of notification message processing:
>
> (A2)  + Message Size:
>
> (A3)  + Easier to automatically generate IDs for dynamic subscriptions
>
> (A4)  + Addition of a leaf containing an optional string definition of
a configured subscription.  This string would be passed as part of the
"subscription-started" notification.
>
> (A5)  + Low power IoT receivers.    Many small receivers of the same
subscription might consume the same feed with a minimally sized, easier
to process header. (Henk can provide sources for the use cases here.)
>
> (A6)  - Dividing the integer space in two (can consider Henk's option
of moving from uint32 to int32, and requiring configured subscriptions
to use negative numbers.)
>
>
> [B] String
> ********
> (B1)  + Easier to read and understand the sub-domain segmentation of
the subscription-id space, as well as the creation of new sub-domains
>
> (B2)  -  Loss of transport efficiencies in IoT as CBOR does not
currently support the compression of frequently used strings to integer.
>
>
> [C] string for config, integer for dynamic, integer on wire
> **********************************************
> (C1) ++++ four of the advantages of [A]: (A1), (A2), (A3), (A5)
>
> (C2) - use of different tables for different object names in receiver
>
> (C3) - automated subscription correlation across different receivers a
little more complex as the automatically assigned integer wouldn't be
the same across publishers.   Could still derive it from
"subscription-started" notification.
>
> (C4) - some state change notifications become more complex as they
must support different types of subscription ids within the notification
(subscription-suspended, subscription-resumed, subscription-terminated,
replay-completed.)
>
>
>
> Eric
>
>
> > From: Robert Wilton, October 19, 2017 6:28 PM
> >
> > Hi Eric,
> >
> >
> > On 19/10/2017 22:22, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
> > > Hi Alex,
> > > Hi Rob,
> > >
> > > What Alex says is true.   But my original point was about the
receiver's
> > handling of inbound notification messages containing subscribed
content.
> > >
> > > If we have different object names for configured subscription and
dynamic
> > subscriptions (even if they both come across as integer), extra
software
> > structures are needed on the receiver to rectify this.
> > But I don't really agree on this point. There will already be
different client
> > software to manage these given that configured subscriptions are
managed
> > through configuration and dynamic subscriptions are managed through
RPCs.
> >
> > But in terms of how the notifications are handled it can be
identical for both
> > cases (i.e. using the same code). I.e demux from subscription-id to
handling
> > function. In both dynamic and static configuration cases the client
would need
> > to learn what subscription-id has been allocated to the subscription
by the
> > publishing device.
> >
> > >    The result is that we are imposing complexity to the receiver
unnecessarily.
> > I would argue that we are removing complexity for the client by
allowing them
> > more freedom on how they name their subscriptions. The additional
> > complexity is learning the mapping from "configured subscription
name"
> > to "system allocated subscription-id", but they require the same
code for
> > dynamic subscriptions anyway ...
> >
> >
> > >     This complexity can be eliminated with a unified address space
under the
> > control of the Publisher for both types of subscriptions.
> > In the solution that I propose there is a unified address space of
numeric
> > subscription-ids managed solely by the publisher. But with the
current scheme
> > described in the drafts of using numerical ids for configured
subscriptions then
> > the ownership of the subscription-id address space is split between
all clients
> > and the single publisher, and it is this shared address space of
numerical ids
> > that I'm not that keen on, but like the efficiency of using
numerical ids in the
> > notification messages (and subsequent handling).
> >
> > Or, comparing to the ACL YANG draft, do you think that it would be
OK to use
> > numerical ids to label each configured ACL rather than a string
name?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Rob
> >
> <snip>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "Robert Wilton -X (rwilton - ENSOFT LIMITED at Cisco)" <rwilton@cisco.com>,  "netconf-chairs@ietf.org" <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, Alberto Gonzalez Prieto <alberto.gonzalezprieto@yahoo.com>, "Einar Nilsen-Nygaard (einarnn)" <einarnn@cisco.com>, "Ambika Prasad Tripathy Tripathy (ambtripa)" <ambtripa@cisco.com>, "Zhengguangying (Walker) (zhengguangying@huawei.com)" <zhengguangying@huawei.com>
CC: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 12:33:29 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
CC: "Robert Wilton -X (rwilton - ENSOFT LIMITED at Cisco)" <rwilton@cisco.com>,  "netconf-chairs@ietf.org" <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>, "alexander.clemm@huawei.com" <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, "alberto.gonzalezprieto@yahoo.com" <alberto.gonzalezprieto@yahoo.com>, "Einar Nilsen-Nygaard (einarnn)" <einarnn@cisco.com>, "Ambika Prasad Tripathy Tripathy (ambtripa)" <ambtripa@cisco.com>, "zhengguangying@huawei.com" <zhengguangying@huawei.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 20:41:15 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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Subject: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Network Configuration Access Control Module
        Authors         : Andy Bierman
                          Martin Bjorklund
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07.txt
	Pages           : 56
	Date            : 2017-10-20

Abstract:
   The standardization of network configuration interfaces for use with
   the Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF) or RESTCONF protocol
   requires a structured and secure operating environment that promotes
   human usability and multi-vendor interoperability.  There is a need
   for standard mechanisms to restrict NETCONF or RESTCONF protocol
   access for particular users to a pre-configured subset of all
   available NETCONF or RESTCONF protocol operations and content.  This
   document defines such an access control model.

   This document obsoletes RFC 6536.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07


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until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

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ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Fri Oct 20 17:28:53 2017
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Subject: [Netconf] netconf - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 100
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Dear Mahesh Jethanandani,

The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled.
Below is the scheduled session information followed by
the original request. 

netconf Session 1 (2:00:00)
    Thursday, Afternoon Session II 1550-1750
    Room Name: Collyer size: 250
    ---------------------------------------------
    


Request Information:


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Network Configuration
Area Name: Operations and Management Area
Session Requester: Mahesh Jethanandani

Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):  2 Hours
Number of Attendees: 100
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 First Priority: netmod opsarea opsawg l2sm lime anima
 Second Priority: rtgwg ippm bfd i2rs
 Third Priority: sacm v6ops core 6tisch 6lo


People who must be present:
  Benoit Claise
  Mahesh Jethanandani
  Kent Watsen

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  Please schedule session Mon-Thur. Friday is NOT possible.
(netmod opsarea opsawg l2sm lime supa are conflict for the OPS AD Benoit Claise)
and anima is conflict for co-chair Kent Watsen.
---------------------------------------------------------


From nobody Sat Oct 21 09:48:45 2017
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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2017 09:48:37 -0700
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--94eb2c0c884a70e093055c115c74
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hi,


On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 6:05 AM, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> This version of the YANG library has been reorganized wrt groupings
> along the lines requested by Joe Clark.  Also, the text about updating
> RFC 8040 is removed, or rather it was moved to
> draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf.
>
>

I think the YANG library deployment is likely to fracture into 3 variants
  1) NMDA servers (7895bis base)
  2) non-NMDA servers (7895 base)
  3) IoT servers (CoMI version)

I would like to avoid (3).

I think 2 additions can help fix that:

top-level leaf:

 leaf  library-redirect {
   type inet:uri;
   description
       "URI for the actual YANG library server for this server.
        If present then the entire YANG library will be found on the remote
        server instead of this server, and the <get-schema> operation will
        not be available on this server.";
 }

added to module:

  leaf sid {
     type uint64;
     description "The schema node identifier value assigned to this module";
  }


I realize SID is still under development, but so is this new version of the
YANG library.



>
> /martin
>
>

Andy


>
> internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> >
> > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> > This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.
> >
> >         Title           : YANG Library
> >         Authors         : Andy Bierman
> >                           Martin Bjorklund
> >                           Kent Watsen
> >       Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis-01.txt
> >       Pages           : 21
> >       Date            : 2017-08-31
> >
> > Abstract:
> >    This document describes a YANG library that provides information
> >    about all the YANG modules used by a network management server (e.g.,
> >    a Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF) server).  Simple caching
> >    mechanisms are provided to allow clients to minimize retrieval of
> >    this information.
> >
> >
> > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis/
> >
> > There are also htmlized versions available at:
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis-01
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis-01
> >
> > A diff from the previous version is available at:
> > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis-01
> >
> >
> > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
> >
> > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Netconf mailing list
> > Netconf@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>

--94eb2c0c884a70e093055c115c74
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<div><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote">On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 6:05 AM, Martin Bjorklund <span dir=3D"=
ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbj@tail-f.com" target=3D"_blank">mbj@tail-f.com=
</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br>
<br>
This version of the YANG library has been reorganized wrt groupings<br>
along the lines requested by Joe Clark.=C2=A0 Also, the text about updating=
<br>
RFC 8040 is removed, or rather it was moved to<br>
draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-<wbr>restconf.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I think the YANG librar=
y deployment is likely to fracture into 3 variants</div><div>=C2=A0 1) NMDA=
 servers (7895bis base)</div><div>=C2=A0 2) non-NMDA servers (7895 base)</d=
iv><div>=C2=A0 3) IoT servers (CoMI version)</div><div><br></div><div>I wou=
ld like to avoid (3).</div><div><br></div><div>I think 2 additions can help=
 fix that:</div><div><br></div><div>top-level leaf:</div><div><br></div><di=
v>=C2=A0leaf =C2=A0library-redirect {</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0type inet:uri;=
</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0description=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&quot;URI for the actual YANG library server for this server.</div><d=
iv>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 If present then the entire YANG library will=
 be found on the remote</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 server instea=
d of this server, and the &lt;get-schema&gt; operation will</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 not be available on this server.&quot;;</div><div>=
=C2=A0}</div><div><br></div><div>added to module:</div><div><br></div><div>=
=C2=A0 leaf sid {</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0type uint64;</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0description &quot;The schema node identifier value assigne=
d to this module&quot;;</div><div>=C2=A0 }</div><div><br></div><div><br></d=
iv><div>I realize SID is still under development, but so is this new versio=
n of the YANG library.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<br></div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
/martin<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div>=C2=A0</=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a> wr=
ote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dir=
ectories.<br>
&gt; This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.=
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0: YANG Library<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0: Andy Bierman<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Martin Bjorklund<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Kent Watsen<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-=
ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis-<wbr>01.txt<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0: 21<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 : 2017-08-31<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Abstract:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This document describes a YANG library that provides info=
rmation<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 about all the YANG modules used by a network management s=
erver (e.g.,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 a Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF) server).=C2=A0=
 Simple caching<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mechanisms are provided to allow clients to minimize retr=
ieval of<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 this information.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895=
bis/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wb=
r>doc/draft-ietf-netconf-<wbr>rfc7895bis/</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; There are also htmlized versions available at:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis-0=
1" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>dr=
aft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis-<wbr>01</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rf=
c7895bis-01" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.=
org/<wbr>doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-<wbr>rfc7895bis-01</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; A diff from the previous version is available at:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-netconf-rfc7=
895bis-01" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdif=
f?<wbr>url2=3Ddraft-ietf-netconf-<wbr>rfc7895bis-01</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of subm=
ission<br>
&gt; until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http:/=
/tools.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<b=
r>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/" rel=3D"noreferrer" tar=
get=3D"_blank">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-<wbr>drafts/</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
&gt; Netconf mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf" rel=3D"noref=
errer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/netconf=
</a><br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Netconf mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf" rel=3D"noreferrer=
" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/netconf</a><=
br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

--94eb2c0c884a70e093055c115c74--


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Subject: [Netconf] WGLC on zerotouch draft
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The zerotouch draft has had a couple of calls for consideration of LC, and h=
as over that period cumulatively picked up votes of support. The last attemp=
t resulted in a few more issues being raised by Martin, which Kent has addre=
ssed. That leaves the question of the definition of =E2=80=9Chash-algorithm=E2=
=80=9D as a base identity in the module and the =E2=80=98yang-data=E2=80=99 e=
xtension statement as it applies to a draft's use of 'choice' statement. Sin=
ce there is no crypto module with =E2=80=9Chash-algorithm" identities, Kent i=
s leaving the definition in this draft. When and if, such a model/identity i=
s defined, we will deprecate the definition in this draft. For =E2=80=98yang=
-data=E2=80=99 extension statement, we will go with Martin=E2=80=99s suggest=
ion to add this in the yang-data-augmentation draft. Please note that that d=
raft is an individual draft, but since it is a technical detail, whose solut=
ion has generally been agreed upon, we feel it should not hold up the LC.

Since we are dealing with an updated draft, a new LC has to be issued. We wi=
ll count the previous votes of support for this draft in addition to any new=
 ones to move the draft forward. This e-mail starts that LC and will last 2 w=
eeks. Please indicate support for the draft by responding to the e-mails, an=
d if you have objections, indicate why. For those that provided feedback bef=
ore, please ensure your comments have been addressed by this version of the d=
raft.

Thanks.=20

Mahesh Jethanandani (as co-chair)
mjethanandani@gmail.com=


From nobody Sat Oct 21 14:00:42 2017
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
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Cc: draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis@ietf.org, Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>, netconf-chairs@ietf.org, mjethanandani@gmail.com, netconf@ietf.org
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Subject: [Netconf] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: (with COMMENT)
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Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: No Objection

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Line 231
      object.  One of "none", "read", "create", "delete", "update", or
      "execute".
Your table below does not make use of "none" but rather makes use of N/A. Are
they the same?

Line 469
   The RESTCONF protocol [RFC8040] is used for network management
   purposes within this document.
Maybe just merge these sentences?

Line 559
      is rejected with an "access-denied" error.

   The following sequence of conceptual processing steps is executed for
How does this discussion correspond to the diagram above. For instance, what
does pre-read data node acc tl correspond to?

Line 648
      operation for these nodes is considered to be "none".  The edit
      begins at the target resource.
IMPORTANT: I believe this creates a modest vulnerability to treat
PATCH (and potentially PUT) this way because it allows the attacker to
confirm a guess for the contents of a resource it could not have read
(because the parents were unreadable). The attack here is to provide a
patch with the "before" being a guess for parts of the file and then
look for success or failure. How hard this is depends on file
structure (characters per line), etc.

Line 670
   | POST    | datastore, data | <edit-config>       | create          |
   | POST    | operation       | specified operation | N/A             |
   | PUT     | data            | <edit-config>       | create, replace |
I don't folllow why "Access operation" is N/A for, e.g. "GET". an you explain?

Line 673
   | PUT     | datastore       | <copy-config>       | replace         |
   | PATCH   | data, datastore | <edit-config>       | merge           |
   | DELETE  | data            | <edit-config>       | delete          |
"merge" does not appear in the list of access oeprations above.

Line 1057
        match any of the user's groups, proceed to the next rule-list
        entry.
Assuming I am reading this correctly, it is not possible to have
access control entries for individuals but only only for
groups. There's nothing wrong with that, but you should make it clear
earlier. If I'm wrong, can you correct me and explain what I'm
missing.



From nobody Mon Oct 23 05:42:45 2017
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To: evoit@cisco.com
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From: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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Hi,

Some comments inline.

"Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
> Hi Kent,
> 
> > From: Kent Watsen, October 19, 2017 9:51 PM
> > 
> > >> draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-05
> > >> ------------------------------------------------------
> > 
> > >> very complicated (many details).
> > >
> > > If there anything you see as unnecessary, or perhaps should be
> > > optional?
> > 
> > The tree diagram is huge.  I understand that much of it is from
> > grouping
> > expansion, but still, there is a lot to consider (many details).  I'm
> > just thinking
> > that this is going to take time for folks to digest fully.
> 
> We really made an attempt to simplify the tree by using a filter-type
> object instead of the explicit subtyping.  But experienced and capable
> reviewers argued that explicit subtyping was better.  The result is
> that we returned to the larger explicitly subtyping a couple weeks
> ago.  Overall, this added 25% to the tree diagram size :-(.

I don't think a big tree in itself necessarily means that the data
model is bad.  However, for readability purposes, you may want to
split the big tree into smaller pieces.  See for example RFC 7404.

> > >>         flow difficult to read.
> > >
> > > Anything specific?  I am happy to re-order as suggested.
> > 
> > Also, I'm suspecting that the update from Martin's comments will get
> > much of
> > this.  It just seemed that every time tried to chase some bit of
> > information
> > down, it wasn't stated quite right (e.g., terminology, phasing,
> > open-endedness,
> > etc.).  All this got in the way of the readability.
> 
> Hopefully I got the ones which don't resonate.  My natural ecosystem
> is deeper in the router, and YANG means I need to use different terms.
> 
> > >> * what is "promise theory based interaction model"?  (reference?)
> > > Yes, I will add the reference.  The best on-line one I know is:
> > >
> > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__markburgess.org_Pr
> > > omiseMethod.pdf&d=DwIGaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI
> > >
> > &r=9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=zDualRWvSwyZj8MF
> > PL_Xo
> > >
> > pkywEp9xEJgZXjyhdIBPog&s=Dcx9OsC_ayHR7hbMowWHrtulPtXz20vSvnV2xpE
> > Oc0o&e
> > > =
> > 
> > Oh my, that document is 38 pages, I was hoping for simple statement
> > (e.g., the
> > system takes defensive measures in order to ensure resources are
> > available).  I
> > think you have something like this in the yang-push draft.
> 
> I can add a simple statement.  Something like "voluntary cooperation
> between individual, autonomous agents who continuously refine their
> changing intentions to one another in the form of promises".

Does this really help people to understand this document?


> > >> * what is the relationship between streams here and in 5277?
> > >
> > > This document doesn't discuss the details of how streams are generated
> > > within the publisher like 5277 does.  This detail is not necessary for
> > > the external interface definition.
> > >
> > > That said, how to handle/encode names of the streams, the managed
> > > objects, the ability to filter, etc. are identical.
> > 
> > This document should explain the relationship though, right? (see
> > above)
> 
> Is this necessary in the normative part of the document?  When the
> notification-messages draft is complete, it will be possible to
> obsolete RFC-5277 at some later date.  How many linkages are
> appropriate?
> 
> What I did do in the new version (per Martin's request) is to place in
> Appendix A: Relationship to RFC-5277.  What I believe we should do is
> place statements identifying the re-used stream constructs.  Would
> that work?

I think such a section is needed, and I think it shouldn't be an
Appendix, but rather one of the first sections.  This is quite common
in RFCs that updates/obsoletes older RFCs.

> > >> * streams here are identities, unlike "streamNameType"
> > >> (aka xs:string) in 5077.  Is this an issue?
> > >
> > > Based on Martin's comments that he desires to retain the ability for
> > > streams to be spun up possibly during run-time, we have returned to
> > > using string for streams (as we did in earlier
> > > versions of the draft).   Our switch to identities several
> > > months ago was one attempt we made to simplify things, but
> > > it didn't work out.    This is an issue and a resolution we
> > > have long been anticipating.
> > 
> > okay
> > 
> > 
> > >> * use of "<edit-config> operations" for configured subscriptions is
> > >> confusing.
> > >
> > > It is just a normal configuration.  I will happily delete the example
> > > if you think it unnecessary or redundant.
> > 
> > No, the examples are good.  It's literally the words "<edit-config>
> > operations"
> > are problematic.  Use some other phrasing that is not
> > NETCONF-specific.
> 
> I will just use 'configuration operations'
> 
> > >> * the example in s5.1 seems to be more about how to create a
> > >> configured subscription than establishing a subscription connection
> > >
> > > Exactly.  How to establish the subscription connection is transport
> > > specific, and therefore in the netconf-notif draft.  Specifically
> > > in Section 3.4.3
> > 
> > But the section is called "Establishing a Configured Subscription". I
> > think this actually goes to your use of the word "establish", perhaps
> > "create" is a better word - "Creating a Configured Subscription" ?
> 
> Will do.  No reason to reuse the establish if it confuses people.
> 
> > >> * Section 7 says "This notification message MAY be encoded as
> > >> one-way notification element of [RFC5277], Section 4."  If this
> > >> is a MAY, how does the client know what it received?  And how
> > >> does the publisher know what format to send?
> > >
> > > I was trying to lay the groundwork for a future support of
> > > notification-messages in a way that this document wouldn't have to
> > > be updated.  I have given up on that.  Support is now a MUST.  And
> > > this will need to be revised in the future when we get
> > > notification-messages to an RFC state.
> > 
> > okay
> > 
> > 
> > >> * xpath-filter is not a feature-based option?
> > >
> > > Not feature based.  Of course if the syntax is not supported on
> > > a filter, the subscription will be rejected with the error
> > > "filter-type-unsupported ".
> > >
> > > At this point, I don't recall anyone suggesting xpath should not
> > > be a mandatory for event filtering though.
> > 
> > well, it's not mandatory for NETCONF-based filtering.  So, a system
> > that doesn't support XPath filtering in NETCONF would have to support
> > XPath filtering here?
> 
> Hmm.  I had been hoping to have at least one (xpath) as mandatory.
> But maybe that is unrealistic.
> 
> What I am thinking is that maybe both filters should be optional
> features.  And then specific transport drafts (like NETCONF) can
> identify them as mandatory. At least when that transport is used.
> 
> > >> * I see top-level /subscription-config and /subscriptions - is
> > >> this NMDA compliant?
> > >
> > > As this pre-dates NMDA, we are awaiting the "you MUST make the
> > > conversion" directive.  And if this comes, we will gladly do that.
> > 
> > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/rqrXUqs8YMIfcrKZnSIoH4gA-8M
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6087bis-14#section-4.23.3
> 
> Yep.  We do fall in the SHOULD category :-)
> 
> But seriously, we can convert.

Before doing anything, make sure the "subscription-id" issue is
resolved first.  If Rob's proposal is adopted, we will still need two
lists, one config and one operational, even in the NMDA-compliant
version.  Some changes might be needed in the naming of top-level
containers though.

> The question is how to do this without
> losing our place in the review queue.  We had expected to be through
> WGLC *long* before NMDA was formalized.  And we are very concerned
> this policy change could result in further delay.  So the current plan
> we have is to get agreement on the contents of the model.  And then
> agreement that we have converted what is an acceptable model into an
> equivalent NMDA version.


/martin


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CC: "kwatsen@juniper.net" <kwatsen@juniper.net>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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Hi Martin,
Hi Kent,

> From: Martin Bjorklund, October 23, 2017 8:41 AM
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> Some comments inline.
>=20
> "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
> > Hi Kent,
> >
> > > From: Kent Watsen, October 19, 2017 9:51 PM
> > >
> > > >> draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-05
> > > >> ------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > >> very complicated (many details).
> > > >
> > > > If there anything you see as unnecessary, or perhaps should be
> > > > optional?
> > >
> > > The tree diagram is huge.  I understand that much of it is from
> > > grouping expansion, but still, there is a lot to consider (many
> > > details).  I'm just thinking that this is going to take time for
> > > folks to digest fully.
> >
> > We really made an attempt to simplify the tree by using a filter-type
> > object instead of the explicit subtyping.  But experienced and capable
> > reviewers argued that explicit subtyping was better.  The result is
> > that we returned to the larger explicitly subtyping a couple weeks
> > ago.  Overall, this added 25% to the tree diagram size :-(.
>=20
> I don't think a big tree in itself necessarily means that the data model =
is bad.
> However, for readability purposes, you may want to split the big tree int=
o
> smaller pieces.  See for example RFC 7404.

I think you mean RFC 7407?

If many in the WG want such a partitioning, we could do that.    But there =
are at least three downsides to that approach, at least for this document:

(a) We provide augmentations to this model in yang-push.  Tracking where th=
e augmentations might properly be placed will mean that we still need some =
base tree structure for the overall model.

(b) For filtering (and for the proposal on receiver transports) the augment=
ations occur at different levels of the tree.   Therefore tree information =
will need to be replicated in different figures.  Perhaps we would need con=
vention additions for this?  Note: RFC 7407 didn't seem to have this issue.

(c) It will significantly increase the size of the document.
=20
> > > >>         flow difficult to read.
> > > >
> > > > Anything specific?  I am happy to re-order as suggested.
> > >
> > > Also, I'm suspecting that the update from Martin's comments will get
> > > much of this.  It just seemed that every time tried to chase some
> > > bit of information down, it wasn't stated quite right (e.g.,
> > > terminology, phasing, open-endedness, etc.).  All this got in the
> > > way of the readability.
> >
> > Hopefully I got the ones which don't resonate.  My natural ecosystem
> > is deeper in the router, and YANG means I need to use different terms.
> >
> > > >> * what is "promise theory based interaction model"?  (reference?)
> > > > Yes, I will add the reference.  The best on-line one I know is:
> > > >
> > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__markburgess.o=
r
> > > > g_Pr
> > > > omiseMethod.pdf&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> > > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI
> > > >
> > >
> &r=3D9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=3DzDualRWvSwyZj8MF
> > > PL_Xo
> > > >
> > >
> pkywEp9xEJgZXjyhdIBPog&s=3DDcx9OsC_ayHR7hbMowWHrtulPtXz20vSvnV2xpE
> > > Oc0o&e
> > > > =3D
> > >
> > > Oh my, that document is 38 pages, I was hoping for simple statement
> > > (e.g., the system takes defensive measures in order to ensure
> > > resources are available).  I think you have something like this in
> > > the yang-push draft.
> >
> > I can add a simple statement.  Something like "voluntary cooperation
> > between individual, autonomous agents who continuously refine their
> > changing intentions to one another in the form of promises".
>=20
> Does this really help people to understand this document?

I didn't such an statement helped either.  Which is why I thought a link mi=
ght be better.  =20

What I am going to do is include a reference to [yang-push] section 3.4.  T=
his section 3.4 provides the kind of info I think Kent wanted in his simple=
 statement.   In section 3.4, I will also place the link to:
http://markburgess.org/PromiseMethod.pdf

> > > >> * what is the relationship between streams here and in 5277?
> > > >
> > > > This document doesn't discuss the details of how streams are
> > > > generated within the publisher like 5277 does.  This detail is not
> > > > necessary for the external interface definition.
> > > >
> > > > That said, how to handle/encode names of the streams, the managed
> > > > objects, the ability to filter, etc. are identical.
> > >
> > > This document should explain the relationship though, right? (see
> > > above)
> >
> > Is this necessary in the normative part of the document?  When the
> > notification-messages draft is complete, it will be possible to
> > obsolete RFC-5277 at some later date.  How many linkages are
> > appropriate?
> >
> > What I did do in the new version (per Martin's request) is to place in
> > Appendix A: Relationship to RFC-5277.  What I believe we should do is
> > place statements identifying the re-used stream constructs.  Would
> > that work?
>=20
> I think such a section is needed, and I think it shouldn't be an Appendix=
, but
> rather one of the first sections.  This is quite common in RFCs that
> updates/obsoletes older RFCs.

The working copy now has this Appendix A:
https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/blob/master/draft-ietf-netconf-sub=
scribed-notifications-06.txt

This section easily could be placed as Section 1.4.  The only think needed =
would be a first sentence of Section 1.4 saying.  "This solution provides e=
nhancements to the subscription model described within RFC-5277.  Key relat=
ionships with that document include:"

If Kent and or others in the WG want it moved up, that would be easy to do.

> > > >> * streams here are identities, unlike "streamNameType"
> > > >> (aka xs:string) in 5077.  Is this an issue?
> > > >
> > > > Based on Martin's comments that he desires to retain the ability
> > > > for streams to be spun up possibly during run-time, we have
> > > > returned to using string for streams (as we did in earlier
> > > > versions of the draft).   Our switch to identities several
> > > > months ago was one attempt we made to simplify things, but
> > > > it didn't work out.    This is an issue and a resolution we
> > > > have long been anticipating.
> > >
> > > okay
> > >
> > >
> > > >> * use of "<edit-config> operations" for configured subscriptions
> > > >> is confusing.
> > > >
> > > > It is just a normal configuration.  I will happily delete the
> > > > example if you think it unnecessary or redundant.
> > >
> > > No, the examples are good.  It's literally the words "<edit-config>
> > > operations"
> > > are problematic.  Use some other phrasing that is not
> > > NETCONF-specific.
> >
> > I will just use 'configuration operations'
> >
> > > >> * the example in s5.1 seems to be more about how to create a
> > > >> configured subscription than establishing a subscription
> > > >> connection
> > > >
> > > > Exactly.  How to establish the subscription connection is
> > > > transport specific, and therefore in the netconf-notif draft.
> > > > Specifically in Section 3.4.3
> > >
> > > But the section is called "Establishing a Configured Subscription".
> > > I think this actually goes to your use of the word "establish",
> > > perhaps "create" is a better word - "Creating a Configured Subscripti=
on" ?
> >
> > Will do.  No reason to reuse the establish if it confuses people.
> >
> > > >> * Section 7 says "This notification message MAY be encoded as
> > > >> one-way notification element of [RFC5277], Section 4."  If this
> > > >> is a MAY, how does the client know what it received?  And how
> > > >> does the publisher know what format to send?
> > > >
> > > > I was trying to lay the groundwork for a future support of
> > > > notification-messages in a way that this document wouldn't have to
> > > > be updated.  I have given up on that.  Support is now a MUST.  And
> > > > this will need to be revised in the future when we get
> > > > notification-messages to an RFC state.
> > >
> > > okay
> > >
> > >
> > > >> * xpath-filter is not a feature-based option?
> > > >
> > > > Not feature based.  Of course if the syntax is not supported on a
> > > > filter, the subscription will be rejected with the error
> > > > "filter-type-unsupported ".
> > > >
> > > > At this point, I don't recall anyone suggesting xpath should not
> > > > be a mandatory for event filtering though.
> > >
> > > well, it's not mandatory for NETCONF-based filtering.  So, a system
> > > that doesn't support XPath filtering in NETCONF would have to
> > > support XPath filtering here?
> >
> > Hmm.  I had been hoping to have at least one (xpath) as mandatory.
> > But maybe that is unrealistic.
> >
> > What I am thinking is that maybe both filters should be optional
> > features.  And then specific transport drafts (like NETCONF) can
> > identify them as mandatory. At least when that transport is used.
> >
> > > >> * I see top-level /subscription-config and /subscriptions - is
> > > >> this NMDA compliant?
> > > >
> > > > As this pre-dates NMDA, we are awaiting the "you MUST make the
> > > > conversion" directive.  And if this comes, we will gladly do that.
> > >
> > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/rqrXUqs8YMIfcrKZnSIoH4g
> > > A-8M
> > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6087bis-14#section-
> > > 4.23.3
> >
> > Yep.  We do fall in the SHOULD category :-)
> >
> > But seriously, we can convert.
>=20
> Before doing anything, make sure the "subscription-id" issue is resolved =
first.  If
> Rob's proposal is adopted, we will still need two lists, one config and o=
ne
> operational, even in the NMDA-compliant version.  Some changes might be
> needed in the naming of top-level containers though.

I will wait.    One thing I just did is add the multiple list need as part =
of a newly updated:
https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/issues/6=20

At this point more people have expressed support for "integer" rather than =
the other model.=20

Eric

> > The question is how to do this without losing our place in the review
> > queue.  We had expected to be through WGLC *long* before NMDA was
> > formalized.  And we are very concerned this policy change could result
> > in further delay.  So the current plan we have is to get agreement on
> > the contents of the model.  And then agreement that we have converted
> > what is an acceptable model into an equivalent NMDA version.
>=20
>=20
> /martin


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To: "t.petch" <ietfc@btconnect.com>, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
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From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 16:16:11 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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Hi Tom,

What is your perceived complexity of C?Â  We are not talking of anything 
more complex than the equivalent of a cached DNS lookup, and the 
complexity seems to be identical to a dynamic subscriber.

My concern with using an integer id as a configured subscription id is 
that it looks like a premature optimization.Â  In fact, it feels somewhat 
similar to combined config + state problem that we currently trying to 
unravel with the NMDA architecture ;-)

Subscription configuration, dynamic subscription requests, and actual 
operational subscriptions all have different data lifecycles, hence 
temporally they should exist in different tables anyway.

An implementation can choose to "optimize" these 3 tables into a single 
data structure if they want, this isn't hard to code.Â  In the same way a 
implementation can store configuration and operational state in the same 
tree structure if they wish (although I suspect that the accidental 
complexity that gets introduced may outweigh the perceived benefits of 
combining them).

Conflating a identifier to uniquely describe a configuration object, and 
a system allocated identifier for an operational subscription object 
seems ill advised to me.

It is also worth noting that the current draft doesn't actually enforce 
how the configuration and operational subscription-id space is split (it 
uses a SHOULD not a MUST).Â  So, even if a client chooses subscription id 
"X" for a particular type of subscription, then it needs to cope with 
the fact that the subscription id may already be in use for some devices 
and hence it needs to try again to find another id that is not in use.Â  
I bet the code to handle this is far more complex than the code required 
to handle a dynamic id allocated to a statically configured subscription.

Besides if they really don't want to handle the mapping from 
subscription name to operational subscription-id then they could 
allocate a different port number for each configured subscription, and 
avoid the need for any dynamic mapping.

Thanks,
Rob


On 20/10/2017 11:53, t.petch wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2017 2:09 AM
>
> A is efficient, B is verbose, C is complicated (sort of)..
>
> I prefer A .
>
> Tom Petch
>
>> Re-summarizing based on discussions.
>>
>> [A]  Integer
>> *********
>> (A1)  + Efficiency of notification message processing:
>>
>> (A2)  + Message Size:
>>
>> (A3)  + Easier to automatically generate IDs for dynamic subscriptions
>>
>> (A4)  + Addition of a leaf containing an optional string definition of
> a configured subscription.  This string would be passed as part of the
> "subscription-started" notification.
>> (A5)  + Low power IoT receivers.    Many small receivers of the same
> subscription might consume the same feed with a minimally sized, easier
> to process header. (Henk can provide sources for the use cases here.)
>> (A6)  - Dividing the integer space in two (can consider Henk's option
> of moving from uint32 to int32, and requiring configured subscriptions
> to use negative numbers.)
>>
>> [B] String
>> ********
>> (B1)  + Easier to read and understand the sub-domain segmentation of
> the subscription-id space, as well as the creation of new sub-domains
>> (B2)  -  Loss of transport efficiencies in IoT as CBOR does not
> currently support the compression of frequently used strings to integer.
>>
>> [C] string for config, integer for dynamic, integer on wire
>> **********************************************
>> (C1) ++++ four of the advantages of [A]: (A1), (A2), (A3), (A5)
>>
>> (C2) - use of different tables for different object names in receiver
>>
>> (C3) - automated subscription correlation across different receivers a
> little more complex as the automatically assigned integer wouldn't be
> the same across publishers.   Could still derive it from
> "subscription-started" notification.
>> (C4) - some state change notifications become more complex as they
> must support different types of subscription ids within the notification
> (subscription-suspended, subscription-resumed, subscription-terminated,
> replay-completed.)
>>
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>
>>> From: Robert Wilton, October 19, 2017 6:28 PM
>>>
>>> Hi Eric,
>>>
>>>
>>> On 19/10/2017 22:22, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
>>>> Hi Alex,
>>>> Hi Rob,
>>>>
>>>> What Alex says is true.   But my original point was about the
> receiver's
>>> handling of inbound notification messages containing subscribed
> content.
>>>> If we have different object names for configured subscription and
> dynamic
>>> subscriptions (even if they both come across as integer), extra
> software
>>> structures are needed on the receiver to rectify this.
>>> But I don't really agree on this point. There will already be
> different client
>>> software to manage these given that configured subscriptions are
> managed
>>> through configuration and dynamic subscriptions are managed through
> RPCs.
>>> But in terms of how the notifications are handled it can be
> identical for both
>>> cases (i.e. using the same code). I.e demux from subscription-id to
> handling
>>> function. In both dynamic and static configuration cases the client
> would need
>>> to learn what subscription-id has been allocated to the subscription
> by the
>>> publishing device.
>>>
>>>>     The result is that we are imposing complexity to the receiver
> unnecessarily.
>>> I would argue that we are removing complexity for the client by
> allowing them
>>> more freedom on how they name their subscriptions. The additional
>>> complexity is learning the mapping from "configured subscription
> name"
>>> to "system allocated subscription-id", but they require the same
> code for
>>> dynamic subscriptions anyway ...
>>>
>>>
>>>>      This complexity can be eliminated with a unified address space
> under the
>>> control of the Publisher for both types of subscriptions.
>>> In the solution that I propose there is a unified address space of
> numeric
>>> subscription-ids managed solely by the publisher. But with the
> current scheme
>>> described in the drafts of using numerical ids for configured
> subscriptions then
>>> the ownership of the subscription-id address space is split between
> all clients
>>> and the single publisher, and it is this shared address space of
> numerical ids
>>> that I'm not that keen on, but like the efficiency of using
> numerical ids in the
>>> notification messages (and subsequent handling).
>>>
>>> Or, comparing to the ACL YANG draft, do you think that it would be
> OK to use
>>> numerical ids to label each configured ACL rather than a string
> name?
>>> Thanks,
>>> Rob
>>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Netconf mailing list
>> Netconf@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>
> .
>


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Thread-Topic: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
Cc: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>,  "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
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On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 04:29:12PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:
> 
> > What I am going to do is include a reference to [yang-push] section 
> > 3.4.  This section 3.4 provides the kind of info I think Kent wanted
> > in his simple statement.   In section 3.4, I will also place the link
> > to: http://markburgess.org/PromiseMethod.pdf
> 
> I think Martin's point may have been does this document need to use
> the words "promise theory" at all.  Sure, it's a design consideration
> that we've taken into account, but the draft just needs to say that
> the server will fail the request when it doesn't think it has adequate 
> resources - right?
>

Yes, focus on what an implementor needs to know (and leave out
high-level ideas such as Mark's promise theory).

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/J2RrqXrU0_DbTyZOut6LQutOy2Q>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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---- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Wilton" <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 4:16 PM


> Hi Tom,
>
> What is your perceived complexity of C? We are not talking of anything
> more complex than the equivalent of a cached DNS lookup, and the
> complexity seems to be identical to a dynamic subscriber.
>
> My concern with using an integer id as a configured subscription id is
> that it looks like a premature optimization. In fact, it feels
somewhat
> similar to combined config + state problem that we currently trying to
> unravel with the NMDA architecture ;-)
>
> Subscription configuration, dynamic subscription requests, and actual
> operational subscriptions all have different data lifecycles, hence
> temporally they should exist in different tables anyway.
>
> An implementation can choose to "optimize" these 3 tables into a
single
> data structure if they want, this isn't hard to code. In the same way
a
> implementation can store configuration and operational state in the
same
> tree structure if they wish (although I suspect that the accidental
> complexity that gets introduced may outweigh the perceived benefits of
> combining them).
>
> Conflating a identifier to uniquely describe a configuration object,
and
> a system allocated identifier for an operational subscription object
> seems ill advised to me.
>
> It is also worth noting that the current draft doesn't actually
enforce
> how the configuration and operational subscription-id space is split
(it
> uses a SHOULD not a MUST). So, even if a client chooses subscription
id
> "X" for a particular type of subscription, then it needs to cope with
> the fact that the subscription id may already be in use for some
devices
> and hence it needs to try again to find another id that is not in use.
> I bet the code to handle this is far more complex than the code
required
> to handle a dynamic id allocated to a statically configured
subscription.
>
> Besides if they really don't want to handle the mapping from
> subscription name to operational subscription-id then they could
> allocate a different port number for each configured subscription, and
> avoid the need for any dynamic mapping.


Rob

When you said

"If there any possibility that the notification format might impact the
subscriber or YANG push configuration? E.g. the encoding of the
subscription identifier could affect what the associated configuration
model looks like.

If so, then it feels like spending a couple months with the WG trying to
nail down the notification format would be a good idea. Then the
subscription and YANG push drafts could formally depend on the new
notification format. "

I thought yes that to me is logical and so (may be) simple.

However, with things as they are, then the current definition is string
and so there is a sound argument for staying with that (even if it seems
to me to reflect the world view before YANG came along, when strings
made up a larger part of our life).  In future, or starting afresh, I
see an integer as a better identifier

Having more than one way of doing things,
"string for config, integer for dynamic, integer on wire"
well, I find having more than one way as more complex than having one
way.

I do not see an analogy with config+state and NMDA, rather I see one
namespace which only needs one data type of identifier, whatever that
may be.

Tom Petch

> Thanks,
> Rob
>
>
> On 20/10/2017 11:53, t.petch wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
> > Sent: Friday, October 20, 2017 2:09 AM
> >
> > A is efficient, B is verbose, C is complicated (sort of)..
> >
> > I prefer A .
> >
> > Tom Petch
> >
> >> Re-summarizing based on discussions.
> >>
> >> [A]  Integer
> >> *********
> >> (A1)  + Efficiency of notification message processing:
> >>
> >> (A2)  + Message Size:
> >>
> >> (A3)  + Easier to automatically generate IDs for dynamic
subscriptions
> >>
> >> (A4)  + Addition of a leaf containing an optional string definition
of
> > a configured subscription.  This string would be passed as part of
the
> > "subscription-started" notification.
> >> (A5)  + Low power IoT receivers.    Many small receivers of the
same
> > subscription might consume the same feed with a minimally sized,
easier
> > to process header. (Henk can provide sources for the use cases
here.)
> >> (A6)  - Dividing the integer space in two (can consider Henk's
option
> > of moving from uint32 to int32, and requiring configured
subscriptions
> > to use negative numbers.)
> >>
> >> [B] String
> >> ********
> >> (B1)  + Easier to read and understand the sub-domain segmentation
of
> > the subscription-id space, as well as the creation of new
sub-domains
> >> (B2)  -  Loss of transport efficiencies in IoT as CBOR does not
> > currently support the compression of frequently used strings to
integer.
> >>
> >> [C] string for config, integer for dynamic, integer on wire
> >> **********************************************
> >> (C1) ++++ four of the advantages of [A]: (A1), (A2), (A3), (A5)
> >>
> >> (C2) - use of different tables for different object names in
receiver
> >>
> >> (C3) - automated subscription correlation across different
receivers a
> > little more complex as the automatically assigned integer wouldn't
be
> > the same across publishers.   Could still derive it from
> > "subscription-started" notification.
> >> (C4) - some state change notifications become more complex as they
> > must support different types of subscription ids within the
notification
> > (subscription-suspended, subscription-resumed,
subscription-terminated,
> > replay-completed.)
> >>
> >>
> >> Eric
> >>
> >>
> >>> From: Robert Wilton, October 19, 2017 6:28 PM
> >>>
> >>> Hi Eric,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 19/10/2017 22:22, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
> >>>> Hi Alex,
> >>>> Hi Rob,
> >>>>
> >>>> What Alex says is true.   But my original point was about the
> > receiver's
> >>> handling of inbound notification messages containing subscribed
> > content.
> >>>> If we have different object names for configured subscription and
> > dynamic
> >>> subscriptions (even if they both come across as integer), extra
> > software
> >>> structures are needed on the receiver to rectify this.
> >>> But I don't really agree on this point. There will already be
> > different client
> >>> software to manage these given that configured subscriptions are
> > managed
> >>> through configuration and dynamic subscriptions are managed
through
> > RPCs.
> >>> But in terms of how the notifications are handled it can be
> > identical for both
> >>> cases (i.e. using the same code). I.e demux from subscription-id
to
> > handling
> >>> function. In both dynamic and static configuration cases the
client
> > would need
> >>> to learn what subscription-id has been allocated to the
subscription
> > by the
> >>> publishing device.
> >>>
> >>>>     The result is that we are imposing complexity to the receiver
> > unnecessarily.
> >>> I would argue that we are removing complexity for the client by
> > allowing them
> >>> more freedom on how they name their subscriptions. The additional
> >>> complexity is learning the mapping from "configured subscription
> > name"
> >>> to "system allocated subscription-id", but they require the same
> > code for
> >>> dynamic subscriptions anyway ...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>      This complexity can be eliminated with a unified address
space
> > under the
> >>> control of the Publisher for both types of subscriptions.
> >>> In the solution that I propose there is a unified address space of
> > numeric
> >>> subscription-ids managed solely by the publisher. But with the
> > current scheme
> >>> described in the drafts of using numerical ids for configured
> > subscriptions then
> >>> the ownership of the subscription-id address space is split
between
> > all clients
> >>> and the single publisher, and it is this shared address space of
> > numerical ids
> >>> that I'm not that keen on, but like the efficiency of using
> > numerical ids in the
> >>> notification messages (and subsequent handling).
> >>>
> >>> Or, comparing to the ACL YANG draft, do you think that it would be
> > OK to use
> >>> numerical ids to label each configured ACL rather than a string
> > name?
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Rob
> >>>
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Netconf mailing list
> >> Netconf@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> >>
> > .
> >
>


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "t.petch" <ietfc@btconnect.com>, Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, "Juergen Schoenwaelder" <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, "Robert Wilton -X (rwilton - ENSOFT LIMITED at Cisco)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
CC: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
Thread-Index: AQHTSZICl08EYjIrw0WAgfop+NazraLx06GA///WKeGAAAYdcA==
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 17:18:29 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/Pzzj9bVquQ8xR2SJMIRf4DA-ZoM>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
CC: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 17:20:54 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder, October 23, 2017 12:31 PM
>=20
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 04:29:12PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:
> >
> > > What I am going to do is include a reference to [yang-push] section
> > > 3.4.  This section 3.4 provides the kind of info I think Kent wanted
> > > in his simple statement.   In section 3.4, I will also place the link
> > > to: http://markburgess.org/PromiseMethod.pdf
> >
> > I think Martin's point may have been does this document need to use
> > the words "promise theory" at all.  Sure, it's a design consideration
> > that we've taken into account, but the draft just needs to say that
> > the server will fail the request when it doesn't think it has adequate
> > resources - right?
> >
>=20
> Yes, focus on what an implementor needs to know (and leave out high-level
> ideas such as Mark's promise theory).

Fair enough.   I will pull out the promise theory reference in subscribed-n=
otifications.

Eric

> /js
>=20
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, "t.petch" <ietfc@btconnect.com>, Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
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From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 18:31:40 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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On 23/10/2017 18:18, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
>> From: t.petch, October 23, 2017 12:43 PM
>>
>> ---- Original Message -----
>> From: "Robert Wilton" <rwilton@cisco.com>
>> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 4:16 PM
>>
>>
>>> Hi Tom,
>>>
>>> What is your perceived complexity of C? We are not talking of anything
>>> more complex than the equivalent of a cached DNS lookup, and the
>>> complexity seems to be identical to a dynamic subscriber.
>>>
>>> My concern with using an integer id as a configured subscription id is
>>> that it looks like a premature optimization. In fact, it feels
>> somewhat
>>> similar to combined config + state problem that we currently trying to
>>> unravel with the NMDA architecture ;-)
>>>
>>> Subscription configuration, dynamic subscription requests, and actual
>>> operational subscriptions all have different data lifecycles, hence
>>> temporally they should exist in different tables anyway.
>>>
>>> An implementation can choose to "optimize" these 3 tables into a
>> single
>>> data structure if they want, this isn't hard to code. In the same way
>> a
>>> implementation can store configuration and operational state in the
>> same
>>> tree structure if they wish (although I suspect that the accidental
>>> complexity that gets introduced may outweigh the perceived benefits of
>>> combining them).
>>>
>>> Conflating a identifier to uniquely describe a configuration object,
>> and
>>> a system allocated identifier for an operational subscription object
>>> seems ill advised to me.
>>>
>>> It is also worth noting that the current draft doesn't actually
>> enforce
>>> how the configuration and operational subscription-id space is split
>> (it
>>> uses a SHOULD not a MUST). So, even if a client chooses subscription
>> id
>>> "X" for a particular type of subscription, then it needs to cope with
>>> the fact that the subscription id may already be in use for some
>> devices
>>> and hence it needs to try again to find another id that is not in use.
>>> I bet the code to handle this is far more complex than the code
>> required
>>> to handle a dynamic id allocated to a statically configured
>> subscription.
>>> Besides if they really don't want to handle the mapping from
>>> subscription name to operational subscription-id then they could
>>> allocate a different port number for each configured subscription, and
>>> avoid the need for any dynamic mapping.
>>
>> Rob
>>
>> When you said
>>
>> "If there any possibility that the notification format might impact the
>> subscriber or YANG push configuration? E.g. the encoding of the subscription
>> identifier could affect what the associated configuration model looks like.
>>
>> If so, then it feels like spending a couple months with the WG trying to nail
>> down the notification format would be a good idea. Then the subscription and
>> YANG push drafts could formally depend on the new notification format. "
>>
>> I thought yes that to me is logical and so (may be) simple.
>>
>> However, with things as they are, then the current definition is string and so
>> there is a sound argument for staying with that (even if it seems to me to
>> reflect the world view before YANG came along, when strings made up a larger
>> part of our life).  In future, or starting afresh, I see an integer as a better
>> identifier
> Just one clarification above.  The current definition is integer.  This model moved to integer at the beginning of 2016.
>
>> Having more than one way of doing things, "string for config, integer for
>> dynamic, integer on wire"
>> well, I find having more than one way as more complex than having one way.
> Agree.
>
> As an example of the complexities, the subtrees maintaining receiver operational statistics would need to be duplicated, or given an alternate key.
No.Â  It can be a single table key'ed by subscriber-id.

Every subscription (configured or dynamic) is handled the same way and 
is allocated (by the system) a unique subscriber-id when the operational 
subscription is created.

The "subscription name" doesn't identify an operational subscription, it 
is just a friendly (for the operator) name to identify a block of 
configuration that is then used to create a subscription.

Thanks,
Rob


>
> Eric
>
>> I do not see an analogy with config+state and NMDA, rather I see one
>> namespace which only needs one data type of identifier, whatever that may
>> be.
>>
>> Tom Petch
>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Rob
>>>
>>>
>>> On 20/10/2017 11:53, t.petch wrote:
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
>>>> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2017 2:09 AM
>>>>
>>>> A is efficient, B is verbose, C is complicated (sort of)..
>>>>
>>>> I prefer A .
>>>>
>>>> Tom Petch
>>>>
>>>>> Re-summarizing based on discussions.
>>>>>
>>>>> [A]  Integer
>>>>> *********
>>>>> (A1)  + Efficiency of notification message processing:
>>>>>
>>>>> (A2)  + Message Size:
>>>>>
>>>>> (A3)  + Easier to automatically generate IDs for dynamic
>> subscriptions
>>>>> (A4)  + Addition of a leaf containing an optional string definition
>> of
>>>> a configured subscription.  This string would be passed as part of
>> the
>>>> "subscription-started" notification.
>>>>> (A5)  + Low power IoT receivers.    Many small receivers of the
>> same
>>>> subscription might consume the same feed with a minimally sized,
>> easier
>>>> to process header. (Henk can provide sources for the use cases
>> here.)
>>>>> (A6)  - Dividing the integer space in two (can consider Henk's
>> option
>>>> of moving from uint32 to int32, and requiring configured
>> subscriptions
>>>> to use negative numbers.)
>>>>> [B] String
>>>>> ********
>>>>> (B1)  + Easier to read and understand the sub-domain segmentation
>> of
>>>> the subscription-id space, as well as the creation of new
>> sub-domains
>>>>> (B2)  -  Loss of transport efficiencies in IoT as CBOR does not
>>>> currently support the compression of frequently used strings to
>> integer.
>>>>> [C] string for config, integer for dynamic, integer on wire
>>>>> **********************************************
>>>>> (C1) ++++ four of the advantages of [A]: (A1), (A2), (A3), (A5)
>>>>>
>>>>> (C2) - use of different tables for different object names in
>> receiver
>>>>> (C3) - automated subscription correlation across different
>> receivers a
>>>> little more complex as the automatically assigned integer wouldn't
>> be
>>>> the same across publishers.   Could still derive it from
>>>> "subscription-started" notification.
>>>>> (C4) - some state change notifications become more complex as they
>>>> must support different types of subscription ids within the
>> notification
>>>> (subscription-suspended, subscription-resumed,
>> subscription-terminated,
>>>> replay-completed.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Eric
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Robert Wilton, October 19, 2017 6:28 PM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Eric,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 19/10/2017 22:22, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Alex,
>>>>>>> Hi Rob,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What Alex says is true.   But my original point was about the
>>>> receiver's
>>>>>> handling of inbound notification messages containing subscribed
>>>> content.
>>>>>>> If we have different object names for configured subscription and
>>>> dynamic
>>>>>> subscriptions (even if they both come across as integer), extra
>>>> software
>>>>>> structures are needed on the receiver to rectify this.
>>>>>> But I don't really agree on this point. There will already be
>>>> different client
>>>>>> software to manage these given that configured subscriptions are
>>>> managed
>>>>>> through configuration and dynamic subscriptions are managed
>> through
>>>> RPCs.
>>>>>> But in terms of how the notifications are handled it can be
>>>> identical for both
>>>>>> cases (i.e. using the same code). I.e demux from subscription-id
>> to
>>>> handling
>>>>>> function. In both dynamic and static configuration cases the
>> client
>>>> would need
>>>>>> to learn what subscription-id has been allocated to the
>> subscription
>>>> by the
>>>>>> publishing device.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      The result is that we are imposing complexity to the receiver
>>>> unnecessarily.
>>>>>> I would argue that we are removing complexity for the client by
>>>> allowing them
>>>>>> more freedom on how they name their subscriptions. The additional
>>>>>> complexity is learning the mapping from "configured subscription
>>>> name"
>>>>>> to "system allocated subscription-id", but they require the same
>>>> code for
>>>>>> dynamic subscriptions anyway ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       This complexity can be eliminated with a unified address
>> space
>>>> under the
>>>>>> control of the Publisher for both types of subscriptions.
>>>>>> In the solution that I propose there is a unified address space of
>>>> numeric
>>>>>> subscription-ids managed solely by the publisher. But with the
>>>> current scheme
>>>>>> described in the drafts of using numerical ids for configured
>>>> subscriptions then
>>>>>> the ownership of the subscription-id address space is split
>> between
>>>> all clients
>>>>>> and the single publisher, and it is this shared address space of
>>>> numerical ids
>>>>>> that I'm not that keen on, but like the efficiency of using
>>>> numerical ids in the
>>>>>> notification messages (and subsequent handling).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or, comparing to the ACL YANG draft, do you think that it would be
>>>> OK to use
>>>>>> numerical ids to label each configured ACL rather than a string
>>>> name?
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Rob
>>>>>>
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Netconf mailing list
>>>>> Netconf@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>>>>
>>>> .
>>>>


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "Robert Wilton -X (rwilton - ENSOFT LIMITED at Cisco)" <rwilton@cisco.com>,  "t.petch" <ietfc@btconnect.com>, Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, "Juergen Schoenwaelder" <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
CC: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 18:04:45 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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From nobody Mon Oct 23 11:49:15 2017
Return-Path: <timjenki@cisco.com>
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From: "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" <timjenki@cisco.com>
To: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID
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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 18:49:08 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID
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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
CC: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Current subscribed-notifications v06  
Thread-Index: AdNMai9GWQ9YUwQbRoeUWoEXiz9ffw==
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 01:49:41 +0000
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Subject: [Netconf] Current subscribed-notifications v06
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New version here:
https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/blob/master/draft-ietf-netconf-sub=
scribed-notifications-06.txt

This version should include:

*       Updates discussed on the list.

*       A terminology scrub

*       Two new terms based on the scrub

o   Proposal for "event record" which hopefully fixes the issue of filters =
not working directly on events

o   Proposal for "event filter" so we don't rely on a too abstract/generic =
definition of "filter" which also covers selection filter

Does not include

*       SN#6 String or Integer for Subscription ID<https://github.com/netco=
nf-wg/rfc5277bis/issues/6>

*       SN#5 Source VRF or leafref to ietf-network-instance<https://github.=
com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/issues/5>

*       SN#4 Configured Subscriptions - Protocol, Encoding<https://github.c=
om/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/issues/4>

*       Does the Appendix on RFC-5277 relationship move to the front?

*       Other encoding: Can we have an XML establish-subscription drive a C=
BOR notification messages.  Also we still need to determine if we stay sile=
nt on whether there can have a mix of encodings (JSON, XML) within a messag=
e.

Thanks,
Eric

Eric Voit
Principal Engineer
Cisco Systems, Inc.


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">New version here:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/=
blob/master/draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-06.txt">https://git=
hub.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/blob/master/draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-not=
ifications-06.txt</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This version should include:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span style=
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n&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>Updates discussed on the list.<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span style=
=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roma=
n&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>A terminology scrub<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span style=
=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roma=
n&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>Two new terms based on the scrub <o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in=
;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><s=
pan style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">o<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>Proposal for &#8220;event record&#8221; whic=
h hopefully fixes the issue of filters not working directly on events<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in=
;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><s=
pan style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">o<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Ro=
man&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>Proposal for &#8220;event filter&#8221; so w=
e don&#8217;t rely on a too abstract/generic definition of &#8220;filter&#8=
221; which also covers selection filter<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Does not include<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span style=
=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roma=
n&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>SN#6 <a href=3D"https://github.com/netconf-w=
g/rfc5277bis/issues/6">
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Segoe UI&quot;,sans-serif;background:#F6F8=
FA">String or Integer for Subscription ID</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span style=
=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roma=
n&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>SN#5 <a href=3D"https://github.com/netconf-w=
g/rfc5277bis/issues/5">
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Segoe UI&quot;,sans-serif;background:#F6F8=
FA">Source VRF or leafref to ietf-network-instance</span></a><o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span style=
=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roma=
n&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>SN#4 <a href=3D"https://github.com/netconf-w=
g/rfc5277bis/issues/4">
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Segoe UI&quot;,sans-serif;background:white=
">Configured Subscriptions - Protocol, Encoding</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span style=
=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roma=
n&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>Does the Appendix on RFC-5277 relationship m=
ove to the front?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span style=
=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roma=
n&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>Other encoding: Can we have an XML establish=
-subscription drive a CBOR notification messages.&nbsp; Also we still need =
to determine if we stay silent on whether there can have a mix of encodings=
 (JSON, XML) within a message.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Eric<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Eric Voit <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt">Principal Engineer<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt">Cisco Systems, Inc.<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_e338278ef2cd4d179e818534f106a3d1XCHRTP013ciscocom_--


From nobody Tue Oct 24 00:11:41 2017
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To: timjenki@cisco.com
Cc: netconf@ietf.org
From: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID
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"Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" <timjenki@cisco.com> wrote:
> All,
> 
> This note attempts to take a detailed look at the two main proposals
> for the use of subscription IDs for the subscribed notifications
> draft.
> 
> The two proposals that I'll examine here are 'single integer ID type'
> and 'mixed ID type' as I'm referring to them. Proposals where the
> update notifications are different from configured subscriptions and
> dynamic subscriptions are not considered, since that is highly
> undesirable and more complex.
> 
> In the 'single integer ID type' proposal, the subscription records in
> both the configuration and operational tables of subscriptions are
> indexed by a 32-bit integer value. Since configured subscriptions also
> appear in the operational table, the index space is common between
> configured and operational subscriptions. Subscribers create the
> configured subscription IDs, while the publisher creates the dynamic
> subscription IDs. Thus, there is an issue of potential conflict; it
> has been proposed to split the space between subcriber and publisher
> generated to remove this potential conflict.
> 
> In the 'mixed ID type' proposal, configured subscriptions are created
> with a string ID by the subscriber, and dynamic subscriptions are
> created with a 32-bit integer ID by the publisher. The publisher also
> creates a 32-bit integer ID for configured subscriptions, so they
> effectively have two IDs. These are referred to as the subscriber and
> publish IDs for the rest of this note. The configured subscriptions
> table is indexed by the subscriber ID and the publisher ID does not
> appear in this table because it is not configuration data. The
> operational subscriptions table is indexed by the publisher ID and the
> subscriber ID appears in this table, but only for configured
> subscription entries.
> 
> I will attempt to evaluate the two proposals against some issues.
> 
> 1/ How a receiver identifies which subscription an update
> notification's contents are associated with.
> 
> 'single integer ID' -uses only ID available, but can use the ID in the
> 'subscription-started' notification as well

You forgot to mention that receivers have to parse this notification
in order to learn the id (this was apparently a drawback in the
'mixed-ids" case below).

> 'mixed IDs' -learns subscriber and publisher IDs from
> 'subscription-started' notification. This notification has to be
> modified to carry it, and receivers have to parse it.
> 
> 2/ How the issue of multiple sources of ID generation is handled.
> 
> 'single integer ID' -split the 32-bit integer space for issue between
> publisher and subscribers; this does not solve issue among multiple
> subscribers
> 'mixed IDs' -not an issue between publisher and subscribers; but does
> not solve issue among multiple subscribers
> 
> 3/ How subscriptions are associated across multiple publishers. That
> is, how do separate receivers know which subscriptions are considered
> to be the same when they arrive from different publishers?
> 
> 'single integer ID' -subscriber sends to receivers the IDs it used to
> create the subscriptions; it should have used the same ID for the same
> subscriptions on separate publishers

But you can never guarantee that the id you want to use is available
on all systems, unless you have total control over all apps.  And even
if you do, this requires an additional step where someone has to
allocate ids for subscriber apps and hand them out to all apps.

So a robust subscriber have to deal with the case that different integers
are used on different systems, and you will end up with the same kind
of map as in the mixed id case.



/martin



> 'mixed IDs' -subscriber sends to receivers the IDs it used to create
> the subscriptions; it should have used the same ID for the same
> subscriptions on separate publishers. The receivers must parse the
> 'subscription-started' notifications from publishers and create and
> maintain a map of integers IDs to text IDs. This map must be used with
> update notifications, to determine the actual subscription ID of
> interest.
> 
> 4/ How human readable information about the subscriptions is provided.
> 
> 'single integer ID' -an unrestricted text field can be added to
> subscriptions as needed. The addition of an unrestricted text field
> can be done for both configured and dynamic subscriptions if desired
> and makes the need for a text ID string unnecessary.
> 'mixed IDs' -the string ID used is limited: configured subscriptions
> only, and must be able to be a key
> 
> Additional Notes:
> 
> Integer ID Space Split: For the single integer ID case, this is a very
> simple solution to the problem. As currently proposed, the upper half
> of the 32-bit unsigned integer space is set aside for dynamic
> subscriptions, but other splits are possible. One would be to use
> signed integers, and use the sign to spit the space. This would allow
> the use of small integers for both configured and dynamic
> subscriptions when encoding rules can take advantage of such things.
> 
> Conclusion:
> 
> The use of a string as a subscription ID is overall more complicated
> than finding a simple solution for splitting the integer ID space
> between publisher and subscriber space.
> 
> Tim
> 
> --
> Cisco Systems Canada Co.
> 2000 Innovation Drive
> Kanata, ON, Canada, K2K 3E8
> Preferences <http://www.cisco.com/offer/subscribe/?sid=000478326>
> Unsubscribe <http://www.cisco.com/offer/unsubscribe/?sid=000478327>
> Privacy <http://www.cisco.com/web/siteassets/legal/privacy.html>
> 


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From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID
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On 24/10/2017 08:09, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" <timjenki@cisco.com> wrote:
> <snipped>
>> 2/ How the issue of multiple sources of ID generation is handled.
>>
>> 'single integer ID' -split the 32-bit integer space for issue between
>> publisher and subscribers; this does not solve issue among multiple
>> subscribers
>> 'mixed IDs' -not an issue between publisher and subscribers; but does
>> not solve issue among multiple subscribers
>>
>> 3/ How subscriptions are associated across multiple publishers. That
>> is, how do separate receivers know which subscriptions are considered
>> to be the same when they arrive from different publishers?
>>
>> 'single integer ID' -subscriber sends to receivers the IDs it used to
>> create the subscriptions; it should have used the same ID for the same
>> subscriptions on separate publishers
> But you can never guarantee that the id you want to use is available
> on all systems, unless you have total control over all apps.  And even
> if you do, this requires an additional step where someone has to
> allocate ids for subscriber apps and hand them out to all apps.
>
> So a robust subscriber have to deal with the case that different integers
> are used on different systems, and you will end up with the same kind
> of map as in the mixed id case.
I get how having a client allocating the unique ID can make life a 
little easier for a client, because they don't need to learn the device 
generated subscription id.Â  But I don't really understand why this is 
only an issue for configured subscriptions but not dynamic subscriptions.

Another option here, would be to split the subscriber-id space between 
client managed and device managed, and then allow a client to optionally 
provide the subscriber-id (from the client managed space) for both 
configured and dynamic subscriptions.Â  If the client provides an id then 
it must ensure that they are unique or otherwise the device rejects the 
configured/dynamic subscription request.Â  If the client doesn't provide 
an id then the device internally allocates one, i.e. as it does today, 
and in the same way for both configured and dynamic subscriptions.

Configured subscriptions are still identified by a unique string, but of 
course if a client is choosing to managing unique subscription-ids, then 
can just reuse that subscription-id for the name as well if they want.

One further tweak that might be required to make this work better would 
be to further split the client managed id space between configured and 
dynamic subscriptions so that the uniqueness of a client provided 
configuration subscription-id could be verified during config validation.

E.g.

     +--rw subscription-config {configured-subscriptions}?
     |  +--rw subscription* [name]
     |     +- rw name                 string
    Â |     +--rw identifier?          subscription-id  [1 - 1,000,000]
     |     +--rw encoding?            encoding

     +--ro subscriptions
        +--ro subscription* [identifier]
           +--ro identifier                 subscription-id
           +--ro configured-subscription?   string
           +--ro encoding?                  encoding

  +---x establish-subscription
     |  +---w input
     |  |  +---w identifier?          subscription-id [1,000,001 - int32-max]
    Â |  |  +---w encoding?            encoding
     |  |  +---w (target)
     |  |  |  +--:(stream)


Downsides:
- requires a separate table for configured subscriptions.
- the same issue regarding efficient subscription-id allocation exists, 
but now the subscriber-id space would probably need to be partitioned 
into 3 (client-managed-cfg, client-managed-dynamic, device managed).

Thanks,
Rob


>
>
>
> /martin
>
>
>
>> 'mixed IDs' -subscriber sends to receivers the IDs it used to create
>> the subscriptions; it should have used the same ID for the same
>> subscriptions on separate publishers. The receivers must parse the
>> 'subscription-started' notifications from publishers and create and
>> maintain a map of integers IDs to text IDs. This map must be used with
>> update notifications, to determine the actual subscription ID of
>> interest.
>>
>> 4/ How human readable information about the subscriptions is provided.
>>
>> 'single integer ID' -an unrestricted text field can be added to
>> subscriptions as needed. The addition of an unrestricted text field
>> can be done for both configured and dynamic subscriptions if desired
>> and makes the need for a text ID string unnecessary.
>> 'mixed IDs' -the string ID used is limited: configured subscriptions
>> only, and must be able to be a key
>>
>> Additional Notes:
>>
>> Integer ID Space Split: For the single integer ID case, this is a very
>> simple solution to the problem. As currently proposed, the upper half
>> of the 32-bit unsigned integer space is set aside for dynamic
>> subscriptions, but other splits are possible. One would be to use
>> signed integers, and use the sign to spit the space. This would allow
>> the use of small integers for both configured and dynamic
>> subscriptions when encoding rules can take advantage of such things.
>>
>> Conclusion:
>>
>> The use of a string as a subscription ID is overall more complicated
>> than finding a simple solution for splitting the integer ID space
>> between publisher and subscriber space.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> --
>> Cisco Systems Canada Co.
>> 2000 Innovation Drive
>> Kanata, ON, Canada, K2K 3E8
>> Preferences <http://www.cisco.com/offer/subscribe/?sid=000478326>
>> Unsubscribe <http://www.cisco.com/offer/unsubscribe/?sid=000478327>
>> Privacy <http://www.cisco.com/web/siteassets/legal/privacy.html>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> .
>


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    <p><br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 24/10/2017 08:09, Martin Bjorklund
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:20171024.090955.482438718692009640.mbj@tail-f.com">
      <pre wrap="">"Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:timjenki@cisco.com">&lt;timjenki@cisco.com&gt;</a> wrote:
</pre>
      &lt;snipped&gt;<br>
    </blockquote>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:20171024.090955.482438718692009640.mbj@tail-f.com">
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">
2/ How the issue of multiple sources of ID generation is handled.

'single integer ID' -split the 32-bit integer space for issue between
publisher and subscribers; this does not solve issue among multiple
subscribers
'mixed IDs' -not an issue between publisher and subscribers; but does
not solve issue among multiple subscribers

3/ How subscriptions are associated across multiple publishers. That
is, how do separate receivers know which subscriptions are considered
to be the same when they arrive from different publishers?

'single integer ID' -subscriber sends to receivers the IDs it used to
create the subscriptions; it should have used the same ID for the same
subscriptions on separate publishers
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
But you can never guarantee that the id you want to use is available
on all systems, unless you have total control over all apps.  And even
if you do, this requires an additional step where someone has to
allocate ids for subscriber apps and hand them out to all apps.

So a robust subscriber have to deal with the case that different integers
are used on different systems, and you will end up with the same kind
of map as in the mixed id case.</pre>
    </blockquote>
    I get how having a client allocating the unique ID can make life a
    little easier for a client, because they don't need to learn the
    device generated subscription id.Â  But I don't really understand why
    this is only an issue for configured subscriptions but not dynamic
    subscriptions.<br>
    <br>
    Another option here, would be to split the subscriber-id space
    between client managed and device managed, and then allow a client
    to optionally provide the subscriber-id (from the client managed
    space) for both configured and dynamic subscriptions.Â  If the client
    provides an id then it must ensure that they are unique or otherwise
    the device rejects the configured/dynamic subscription request.Â  If
    the client doesn't provide an id then the device internally
    allocates one, i.e. as it does today, and in the same way for both
    configured and dynamic subscriptions.<br>
    <br>
    Configured subscriptions are still identified by a unique string,
    but of course if a client is choosing to managing unique
    subscription-ids, then can just reuse that subscription-id for the
    name as well if they want.<br>
    <br>
    One further tweak that might be required to make this work better
    would be to further split the client managed id space between
    configured and dynamic subscriptions so that the uniqueness of a
    client provided configuration subscription-id could be verified
    during config validation.<br>
    <br>
    E.g. <br>
    <pre style="box-sizing: border-box; overflow: auto; font-family: &quot;PT Mono&quot;, Monaco, monospace; font-size: 14px; display: block; padding: 10px; margin: 0px 0px 10.5px; line-height: 1.214; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); word-break: break-all; word-wrap: break-word; background-color: rgb(255, 253, 245); border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); border-radius: 4px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial;">    +--rw subscription-config {configured-subscriptions}?
    |  +--rw subscription* [name]
    |     +- rw name                 string
   Â |     +--rw identifier?          subscription-id  [1 - 1,000,000]
    |     +--rw encoding?            encoding

    +--ro subscriptions
       +--ro subscription* [identifier]
          +--ro identifier                 subscription-id
          +--ro configured-subscription?   string
          +--ro encoding?                  encoding

 +---x establish-subscription
    |  +---w input
    |  |  +---w identifier?          subscription-id [1,000,001 - int32-max]
   Â |  |  +---w encoding?            encoding
    |  |  +---w (target)
    |  |  |  +--:(stream)</pre>
    <br>
    Downsides:<br>
    - requires a separate table for configured subscriptions.<br>
    - the same issue regarding efficient subscription-id allocation
    exists, but now the subscriber-id space would probably need to be
    partitioned into 3 (client-managed-cfg, client-managed-dynamic,
    device managed).<br>
    <br>
    Thanks,<br>
    Rob<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:20171024.090955.482438718692009640.mbj@tail-f.com">
      <pre wrap="">



/martin



</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">'mixed IDs' -subscriber sends to receivers the IDs it used to create
the subscriptions; it should have used the same ID for the same
subscriptions on separate publishers. The receivers must parse the
'subscription-started' notifications from publishers and create and
maintain a map of integers IDs to text IDs. This map must be used with
update notifications, to determine the actual subscription ID of
interest.

4/ How human readable information about the subscriptions is provided.

'single integer ID' -an unrestricted text field can be added to
subscriptions as needed. The addition of an unrestricted text field
can be done for both configured and dynamic subscriptions if desired
and makes the need for a text ID string unnecessary.
'mixed IDs' -the string ID used is limited: configured subscriptions
only, and must be able to be a key

Additional Notes:

Integer ID Space Split: For the single integer ID case, this is a very
simple solution to the problem. As currently proposed, the upper half
of the 32-bit unsigned integer space is set aside for dynamic
subscriptions, but other splits are possible. One would be to use
signed integers, and use the sign to spit the space. This would allow
the use of small integers for both configured and dynamic
subscriptions when encoding rules can take advantage of such things.

Conclusion:

The use of a string as a subscription ID is overall more complicated
than finding a simple solution for splitting the integer ID space
between publisher and subscriber space.

Tim

--
Cisco Systems Canada Co.
2000 Innovation Drive
Kanata, ON, Canada, K2K 3E8
Preferences <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.cisco.com/offer/subscribe/?sid=000478326">&lt;http://www.cisco.com/offer/subscribe/?sid=000478326&gt;</a>
Unsubscribe <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.cisco.com/offer/unsubscribe/?sid=000478327">&lt;http://www.cisco.com/offer/unsubscribe/?sid=000478327&gt;</a>
Privacy <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.cisco.com/web/siteassets/legal/privacy.html">&lt;http://www.cisco.com/web/siteassets/legal/privacy.html&gt;</a>

</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a>
.

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 14:16:42 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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On 23/10/2017 19:04, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
>> From: Robert Wilton -X, October 23, 2017 1:32 PM
>>
>> On 23/10/2017 18:18, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
>>
> It would have been clearer if I had said 'alternative key'.  In your proposal the key used for config operations is different than the key for retrieving operational statistics.
Yes.

>    So finding your operational data takes an extra step.  Yes this is doable, but there more to do.
Not necessarily.Â  You can still perform this as a single get/get-data 
request using an XPath query expression (if supported).

>
> As a side note: if someone deletes a configured-subscription, there needs to be extra stuff in the implementation to ensure any leafrefs in the operational subscription table pointing to the deleted configured subscription are also cleaned up.
I'm not sure that this is really a problem.Â  If you delete a configured 
subscription then I would expect an implementation to also delete the 
state associated with an operational subscription entry.


>    
>
> Eric
>
>> Every subscription (configured or dynamic) is handled the same way and is
>> allocated (by the system) a unique subscriber-id when the operational
>> subscription is created.
>>
>> The "subscription name" doesn't identify an operational subscription, it is just
>> a friendly (for the operator) name to identify a block of configuration that is
>> then used to create a subscription.
> Which
>
> With a friendly name, why not just have that be a non-key (and maybe unique) object?
Only because I perceive that it is easier, more flexible, and likely 
more descriptive, for a client to generate unique string names for a 
configured list item than a unique numeric index.

Regarding adding a friendly name as a non-key:Â  This might help, but 
equally, it might not be that useful in practice.Â  Once you require 
unique numeric keys for configuration then I think that you already 
force the operator to create a bijective mapping from a meaningful 
subscription name to a unique numeric subscription-id anyway, so they 
can always do the conversion if required.

Thanks,
Rob


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "Robert Wilton -X (rwilton - ENSOFT LIMITED at Cisco)" <rwilton@cisco.com>,  Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" <timjenki@cisco.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID
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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 14:24:23 +0000
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References: <72EC9947-3A3B-425A-A5D7-93D1D1C6778E@cisco.com> <20171024.090955.482438718692009640.mbj@tail-f.com> <26fb400b-247e-7338-8f1b-dbe2351bc3dc@cisco.com>
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--_000_80e3fbd59c6644a6901fc7fc62ef131fXCHRTP013ciscocom_--


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
CC: "Mahesh Jethanandani (mahesh)" <mahesh@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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From nobody Tue Oct 24 11:40:39 2017
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From: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Netconf] Genart telechat review of draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07
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Reviewer: Stewart Bryant
Review result: Ready

I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area
Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please wait for direction from your
document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft.

For more information, please see the FAQ at

<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq>.

Document: draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07
Reviewer: Stewart Bryant
Review Date: 2017-10-24
IETF LC End Date: 2017-10-25
IESG Telechat date: 2017-10-26

Summary: A well written document that is ready for publication

Major issues: None

Minor issues: None

Nits/editorial comments:

These are really minor but I notices them during the review.

Paragraphs 1 and 2 of Section 2.2 (simplicity have a lot of overlapping
content. Perhaps they could be merged.

"This choice matches if all leafs present in the rule match the request." Maybe
it is different  in C/S but the plural of leaf is usually leaves.



From nobody Tue Oct 24 11:59:03 2017
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Subject: [Netconf] Milestones changed for netconf WG
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Changed milestone "WGLC for NMDA NETCONF", set state to active from review,
accepting new milestone.

Changed milestone "WGLC for NMDA RESTCONF", set state to active from review,
accepting new milestone.

Changed milestone "WGLC for YANG Push", set state to active from review,
accepting new milestone.

Changed milestone "WGLC for RESTCONF and HTTP Transport for Event
Notifications", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone.

Changed milestone "WGLC for NETCONF Support for Event Notifications", set
state to active from review, accepting new milestone.

Changed milestone "WGLC for YANG Notification Headers and Bundles", set state
to active from review, accepting new milestone.

URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/netconf/about/


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From: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>
To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>,  "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
CC: "Mahesh Jethanandani (mahesh)" <mahesh@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 00:11:52 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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From nobody Tue Oct 24 17:29:29 2017
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From: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>
To: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>,  "t.petch" <ietfc@btconnect.com>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, "Juergen Schoenwaelder" <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
CC: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
Thread-Index: AQHTSZIH/2hInC0Hw0m1VBgost6LhaLyBeyA//+j50WAAH5EgIAAA68AgAAJP4CAAUHaAIAARLjQ
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 00:29:15 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/KA4_U5OBQPF2xN5m75ZeBZgz5fU>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] two-week review of drafts related to notifications and subscriptions
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Kent Watsen" <kwatsen@juniper.net>
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 12:00 AM

> Thank you to all those who participated in the review of
> the drafts related to event notifications.  Recall that
> our interest was to get a heartbeat from the working group
> regarding the readiness of these drafts to progress to Last
> Call.  As we see it, most of the discussion centered on the
> subscribed-notifications draft, and we're optimistic that
> the next update of that draft could be in shooting distance
> to a Last Call.  Assuming that is true, would it make sense
> to do that, or should we look at including other drafts in
> a combo Last Call.  We understand that there is an interest
> to take a vertical slice (yang-push, subscribed-notifications,
> and netconf-notif) to Last Call together, but maybe it would
> make more sense to do subscribed-notifications, netconf-notif,
> and restconf-notif together, as the latter two drafts provide
> the instance examples for the first draft.

Kent

Your start to this thread called out five related I-D for consideration;
I think that you were spot on to link the five together.

Early comments said that three were nearly ready so we will ignore the
other two; a mistake, IMHO.  I do not think it makes sense to proceed
without at least
  -  draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages
so the priority should be to fix that first;

e.g. I cannot see the status of RFC5277 being determinate without all
five being in play.

Tom Petch

p.s. I think that proceeding with the easier parts and then wishing we
had done it differently as the other parts progress is a common
pattern - for NETCONF, netmod, the IETF - but that does not make it a
good way of working.

> What are your thoughts?
>
> Thanks,
> Kent and Mahesh
>
>
> --
>
> Weâ€™d like to direct the WG attention to the set of drafts related
> to notifications and subscriptions, with the goal of getting a
> pulse on if the WG thinks they are ready to progress now.
>
> To enable you get an overview and to see how the documents relate
> to each other, this draft is a good place to start:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voit-netconf-subscription-and-notif-ov
erview-00.
>
> The drafts related to this review are:
>
>    -  draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications
>    -  draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push
>    -  draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications
>    -  draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif
>    -  draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages
>
> While this is not an official WGLC, we will issue one if the
> response is positive. Please provide comments within two weeks.
>
> Thanks,
> Mahesh and Kent
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] SN #6 String or Integer for Subscription ID (was RE: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?)
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 6:18 PM


> > From: t.petch, October 23, 2017 12:43 PM
> >
> > ---- Original Message -----
> > From: "Robert Wilton" <rwilton@cisco.com>
> > Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 4:16 PM
> >

<snip>

> > However, with things as they are, then the current definition is
string and so
> > there is a sound argument for staying with that (even if it seems to
me to
> > reflect the world view before YANG came along, when strings made up
a larger
> > part of our life).  In future, or starting afresh, I see an integer
as a better
> > identifier
>
> Just one clarification above.  The current definition is integer.
This model moved to integer at the beginning of 2016.

Eric

Sloppy wording on my part - I was harking back to RFC5277 when I said
that the current definition is string.

That RFC is the one we are (or are not:-) updating or replacing so I see
it as the current definition.

Tom Petch

> > Having more than one way of doing things, "string for config,
integer for
> > dynamic, integer on wire"
> > well, I find having more than one way as more complex than having
one way.
>
> Agree.
>
> As an example of the complexities, the subtrees maintaining receiver
operational statistics would need to be duplicated, or given an
alternate key.
>
> Eric
>
> > I do not see an analogy with config+state and NMDA, rather I see one
> > namespace which only needs one data type of identifier, whatever
that may
> > be.
> >
> > Tom Petch
> >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Rob
> > >
> > >
> > > On 20/10/2017 11:53, t.petch wrote:
> > > > ----- Original Message -----


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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 10:44:45 -0700
Message-ID: <CABCOCHRqDSXVQD4-zvhi_OOS85VfTjfWHsRXwurSmEJy1GuCig@mail.gmail.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis@ietf.org,  Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>, NETCONF Working Group <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>,  Netconf <netconf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: (with COMMENT)
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--089e082f63e0895dab055c629c85
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On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

> Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

Thanks for your review.
These line numbers do not line up with the draft in my editor.
I will try to guess the section and paragraph anyway.



> Line 231
>       object.  One of "none", "read", "create", "delete", "update", or
>       "execute".
> Your table below does not make use of "none" but rather makes use of N/A.
> Are
> they the same?
>
>

This is a bug.
I will change N/A to "none" in Table 1.
Also note a bug in table 1. The access operation for POST operation should
be "execute", not "N/A". I will fix that as well. (see new table 1 below)





> Line 469
>    The RESTCONF protocol [RFC8040] is used for network management
>    purposes within this document.
> Maybe just merge these sentences?
>
>
OLD:

3.1.2.  External Dependencies

   The NETCONF protocol [RFC6241] is used for network management
   purposes within this document.

   The RESTCONF protocol [RFC8040] is used for network management
   purposes within this document.


NEW:

   The NETCONF protocol [RFC6241] and RESTCONF protocol [RFC8040]
   are used for network management purposes within this document.


Line 559
>       is rejected with an "access-denied" error.
>
>    The following sequence of conceptual processing steps is executed for
> How does this discussion correspond to the diagram above. For instance,
> what
> does pre-read data node acc tl correspond to?
>


The "pre-read" applies to actions not "rpc" so there is no text in page 13,
para 1, 4 bullet lists
I do not have any proposed changes for this issue.





> Line 648
>       operation for these nodes is considered to be "none".  The edit
>       begins at the target resource.
> IMPORTANT: I believe this creates a modest vulnerability to treat
> PATCH (and potentially PUT) this way because it allows the attacker to
> confirm a guess for the contents of a resource it could not have read
> (because the parents were unreadable). The attack here is to provide a
> patch with the "before" being a guess for parts of the file and then
> look for success or failure. How hard this is depends on file
> structure (characters per line), etc.
>


The purpose of this text is to support user-specific access within a
more-restricted resource.
As an analogy, I can do "ls /home" on my linux PC and see all the users
that are setup,
but I cannot access any of the user dirs (except my own).

I think this was raised as a RESTCONF issue.
The server can return 403 or 404 if access is denied.
Here is some text from the RFC 8040, 4.6:

   If the user is not authorized to alter the target resource, an error
   response containing a "403 Forbidden" status-line SHOULD be returned.
   A server MAY return a "404 Not Found" status-line, as described in
   Section 6.5.4 in [RFC7231]
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-6.5.4>.


 I do not have any suggested edits for this issue.



> Line 670
>    | POST    | datastore, data | <edit-config>       | create          |
>    | POST    | operation       | specified operation | N/A             |
>    | PUT     | data            | <edit-config>       | create, replace |
> I don't folllow why "Access operation" is N/A for, e.g. "GET". an you
> explain?
>
> Line 673
>    | PUT     | datastore       | <copy-config>       | replace         |
>    | PATCH   | data, datastore | <edit-config>       | merge           |
>    | DELETE  | data            | <edit-config>       | delete          |
> "merge" does not appear in the list of access oeprations above.
>
>
Corrected Table 1:


changed rows: HEAD, GET, POST, PUT, PATCH

   +---------+-----------------+---------------------+-----------------+
   | method  | resource class  | NETCONF operation   | Access

   | OPTIONS | all             | none                | none            |
   | HEAD    | all             | <get>               | read            |
   | GET     | all             | <get>               | read            |
   | POST    | datastore, data | <edit-config>       | create          |
   | POST    | operation       | specified operation | execute         |
   | PUT     | data            | <edit-config>       | create, update |
   | PUT     | datastore       | <copy-config>       |  update         |
   | PATCH   | data, datastore | <edit-config>       | update           |
   | DELETE  | data            | <edit-config>       | delete          |
   +---------+-----------------+---------------------+-----------------+

               Table 1: Mapping RESTCONF Methods to NETCONF




> Line 1057
>         match any of the user's groups, proceed to the next rule-list
>         entry.
> Assuming I am reading this correctly, it is not possible to have
> access control entries for individuals but only only for
> groups. There's nothing wrong with that, but you should make it clear
> earlier. If I'm wrong, can you correct me and explain what I'm
> missing.
>
>
>
Sec 3.3.2 para 3:

OLD:

   A group member is identified by a username string.

NEW:

   A group contains zero or more group members.
   A group member is identified by a username string.




Andy

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Eric Rescorla <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;</span>=
 wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.=
8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Eric Rescorla =
has entered the following ballot position for<br>
draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-<wbr>07: No Objection<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<br>
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<br>
introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crit=
eria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/iesg/s=
tat<wbr>ement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis/"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d<wbr>oc=
/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536b<wbr>is/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>-----=
-----<br>
COMMENT:<br>
------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>-----=
-----<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for your review.=
</div><div>These line numbers do not line up with the draft in my editor.</=
div><div>I will try to guess the section and paragraph anyway.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Line 231<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 object.=C2=A0 One of &quot;none&quot;, &quot;read&quot=
;, &quot;create&quot;, &quot;delete&quot;, &quot;update&quot;, or<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;execute&quot;.<br>
Your table below does not make use of &quot;none&quot; but rather makes use=
 of N/A. Are<br>
they the same?<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>This is a bug.</div><di=
v>I will change N/A to &quot;none&quot; in Table 1.</div><div>Also note a b=
ug in table 1. The access operation for POST operation should</div><div>be =
&quot;execute&quot;, not &quot;N/A&quot;. I will fix that as well. (see new=
 table 1 below)</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Line 469<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The RESTCONF protocol [RFC8040] is used for network management=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0purposes within this document.<br>
Maybe just merge these sentences?<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>OLD:</div><div><br></div><div><div>3.1=
.2.=C2=A0 External Dependencies</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The N=
ETCONF protocol [RFC6241] is used for network management</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0purposes within this document.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
The RESTCONF protocol [RFC8040] is used for network management</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0purposes within this document.</div></div><div><br></div><div>=
<br></div><div>NEW:</div><div><br></div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The NETCONF =
protocol [RFC6241] and RESTCONF protocol [RFC8040]</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0a=
re used for network management purposes within this document.</div><div><br=
></div></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1e=
x">
Line 559<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 is rejected with an &quot;access-denied&quot; error.<b=
r>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The following sequence of conceptual processing steps is execu=
ted for<br>
How does this discussion correspond to the diagram above. For instance, wha=
t<br>
does pre-read data node acc tl correspond to?<br></blockquote><div><br></di=
v><div><br></div><div>The &quot;pre-read&quot; applies to actions not &quot=
;rpc&quot; so there is no text in page 13, para 1, 4 bullet lists</div><div=
>I do not have any proposed changes for this issue.</div><div><br></div><di=
v><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex">
<br>
Line 648<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 operation for these nodes is considered to be &quot;no=
ne&quot;.=C2=A0 The edit<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 begins at the target resource.<br>
IMPORTANT: I believe this creates a modest vulnerability to treat<br>
PATCH (and potentially PUT) this way because it allows the attacker to<br>
confirm a guess for the contents of a resource it could not have read<br>
(because the parents were unreadable). The attack here is to provide a<br>
patch with the &quot;before&quot; being a guess for parts of the file and t=
hen<br>
look for success or failure. How hard this is depends on file<br>
structure (characters per line), etc.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><=
br></div><div>The purpose of this text is to support user-specific access w=
ithin a more-restricted resource.</div><div>As an analogy, I can do &quot;l=
s /home&quot; on my linux PC and see all the users that are setup,</div><di=
v>but I cannot access any of the user dirs (except my own).</div><div><br><=
/div><div>I think this was raised as a RESTCONF issue.</div><div>The server=
 can return 403 or 404 if access is denied.</div><div>Here is some text fro=
m the RFC 8040, 4.6:</div><div><br></div><div><pre class=3D"gmail-m_3184789=
367726537118gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;marg=
in-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">   If the user is not authorized to alter t=
he target resource, an error
   response containing a &quot;403 Forbidden&quot; status-line SHOULD be re=
turned.
   A server MAY return a &quot;404 Not Found&quot; status-line, as describe=
d in
   <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-6.5.4" target=3D"=
_blank">Section=C2=A06.5.4 in [RFC7231]</a>. </pre></div><div><br></div><di=
v>=C2=A0I do not have any suggested edits for this issue.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Line 670<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0| POST=C2=A0 =C2=A0 | datastore, data | &lt;edit-config&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| create=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0| POST=C2=A0 =C2=A0 | operation=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| sp=
ecified operation | N/A=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|<br=
>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0| PUT=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| data=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 | &lt;edit-config&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| create, replac=
e |<br>
I don&#39;t folllow why &quot;Access operation&quot; is N/A for, e.g. &quot=
;GET&quot;. an you explain?<br>
<br>
Line 673<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0| PUT=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| datastore=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0| &lt;copy-config&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| replace=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0| PATCH=C2=A0 =C2=A0| data, datastore | &lt;edit-config&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| merge=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|<b=
r>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0| DELETE=C2=A0 | data=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 | &lt;edit-config&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| delete=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |<br>
&quot;merge&quot; does not appear in the list of access oeprations above.<b=
r>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Corrected Table 1:</div><div><br></div=
><div><div><br></div><div>changed rows: HEAD, GET, POST, PUT, PATCH</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+---------+-----------------+---------------=
------+-----------------+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0| method =C2=A0| resource =
class =C2=A0| NETCONF operation =C2=A0 | Access =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<=
/div><div><br></div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0| OPTIONS | all =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | none =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| none =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><di=
v>=C2=A0 =C2=A0| HEAD =C2=A0 =C2=A0| all =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 | &lt;get&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | re=
ad =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0| GET =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 | all =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | &lt;get&gt;=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | read =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0| POST =C2=A0 =C2=A0| data=
store, data | &lt;edit-config&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | create =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0| POST =C2=A0 =C2=A0| oper=
ation =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | specified operation | execute =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0| PUT =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | data =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| &lt;edit-config&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 | create, update |</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0| PUT =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | datasto=
re =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | &lt;copy-config&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0=
update =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0| PATCH =C2=A0 =
| data, datastore | &lt;edit-config&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | update =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0| DELETE =C2=A0| d=
ata =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| &lt;edit-config&gt; =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 | delete =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0+---------+-----------------+---------------------+-----------------=
+</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0Table 1: Mapping RESTCONF Methods to NETCONF</div></div><div><br></d=
iv></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex">
Line 1057<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 match any of the user&#39;s groups, proceed to =
the next rule-list<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 entry.<br>
Assuming I am reading this correctly, it is not possible to have<br>
access control entries for individuals but only only for<br>
groups. There&#39;s nothing wrong with that, but you should make it clear<b=
r>
earlier. If I&#39;m wrong, can you correct me and explain what I&#39;m<br>
missing.<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Sec 3.3.2 para 3:</=
div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">OLD:</d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0A group member is identified by a username string.<br></div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">NEW:</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=C2=A0 =C2=A0A group =
contains zero or more group members.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0A group member is identified by a username string.<br></div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra">Andy</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div></div>

--089e082f63e0895dab055c629c85--


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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: (with COMMENT)
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Eric,

I will take a stab at trying to respond, and I will let the authors =
correct me if I am wrong.

> On Oct 21, 2017, at 2:00 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>=20
> Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: No Objection
>=20
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut =
this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>=20
>=20
> Please refer to =
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>=20
>=20
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis/
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20
> Line 231
>      object.  One of "none", "read", "create", "delete", "update", or
>      "execute".
> Your table below does not make use of "none" but rather makes use of =
N/A. Are
> they the same?

>=20
> Line 469
>   The RESTCONF protocol [RFC8040] is used for network management
>   purposes within this document.
> Maybe just merge these sentences?

>=20
> Line 559
>      is rejected with an "access-denied" error.
>=20
>   The following sequence of conceptual processing steps is executed =
for
> How does this discussion correspond to the diagram above. For =
instance, what
> does pre-read data node acc tl correspond to?

The way I read the diagram is that the left/middle side of the diagram =
corresponds to first set of bullet points below the diagram, and relate =
to active sessions sending <rpc> message and actions to the server, =
while the second set of bullet points correspond to the right side of =
the diagram and cover the access control as they relate to =
notifications. As an example, if the user is not authorized to execute =
the specified operation shown on the left/middle side of the diagram, =
they would get a "access-denied" error.

Andy, the pre-read data acc. ctl, I thought implied the reading/caching =
of the NACM rules that had been configured before the first =
message/notification is issued - no?

>=20
> Line 648
>      operation for these nodes is considered to be "none".  The edit
>      begins at the target resource.
> IMPORTANT: I believe this creates a modest vulnerability to treat
> PATCH (and potentially PUT) this way because it allows the attacker to
> confirm a guess for the contents of a resource it could not have read
> (because the parents were unreadable). The attack here is to provide a
> patch with the "before" being a guess for parts of the file and then
> look for success or failure. How hard this is depends on file
> structure (characters per line), etc.

>=20
> Line 670
>   | POST    | datastore, data | <edit-config>       | create          =
|
>   | POST    | operation       | specified operation | N/A             =
|
>   | PUT     | data            | <edit-config>       | create, replace =
|
> I don't folllow why "Access operation" is N/A for, e.g. "GET". an you =
explain?
>=20
> Line 673
>   | PUT     | datastore       | <copy-config>       | replace         =
|
>   | PATCH   | data, datastore | <edit-config>       | merge           =
|
>   | DELETE  | data            | <edit-config>       | delete          =
|
> "merge" does not appear in the list of access oeprations above.
>=20
> Line 1057
>        match any of the user's groups, proceed to the next rule-list
>        entry.
> Assuming I am reading this correctly, it is not possible to have
> access control entries for individuals but only only for
> groups. There's nothing wrong with that, but you should make it clear
> earlier. If I'm wrong, can you correct me and explain what I'm
> missing.
>=20
>=20

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com




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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 11:29:33 -0700
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To: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
Cc: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis@ietf.org,  NETCONF Working Group <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>, Netconf <netconf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: (with COMMENT)
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--001a11401a04bc9f6c055c633c78
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Mahesh Jethanandani <
mjethanandani@gmail.com> wrote:

> Eric,
>
> I will take a stab at trying to respond, and I will let the authors
> correct me if I am wrong.
>
> > On Oct 21, 2017, at 2:00 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
> >
> > Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for
> > draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: No Objection
> >
> > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> > introductory paragraph, however.)
> >
> >
> > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.
> html
> > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> >
> >
> > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis/
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > COMMENT:
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Line 231
> >      object.  One of "none", "read", "create", "delete", "update", or
> >      "execute".
> > Your table below does not make use of "none" but rather makes use of
> N/A. Are
> > they the same?
>
> >
> > Line 469
> >   The RESTCONF protocol [RFC8040] is used for network management
> >   purposes within this document.
> > Maybe just merge these sentences?
>
> >
> > Line 559
> >      is rejected with an "access-denied" error.
> >
> >   The following sequence of conceptual processing steps is executed for
> > How does this discussion correspond to the diagram above. For instance,
> what
> > does pre-read data node acc tl correspond to?
>
> The way I read the diagram is that the left/middle side of the diagram
> corresponds to first set of bullet points below the diagram, and relate to
> active sessions sending <rpc> message and actions to the server, while the
> second set of bullet points correspond to the right side of the diagram and
> cover the access control as they relate to notifications. As an example, if
> the user is not authorized to execute the specified operation shown on the
> left/middle side of the diagram, they would get a "access-denied" error.
>
> Andy, the pre-read data acc. ctl, I thought implied the reading/caching of
> the NACM rules that had been configured before the first
> message/notification is issued - no?
>
>


No.

If there was an action called /interfaces/interface/reset-interface
then the group must be authorized to read /interfaces and read
/interfaces/interface
and execute /interfaces/interface/reset-interface.

The pre-read refers read access to data node ancestors of an action or
notification.
Do you have text change suggestions?


Andy


>
> > Line 648
> >      operation for these nodes is considered to be "none".  The edit
> >      begins at the target resource.
> > IMPORTANT: I believe this creates a modest vulnerability to treat
> > PATCH (and potentially PUT) this way because it allows the attacker to
> > confirm a guess for the contents of a resource it could not have read
> > (because the parents were unreadable). The attack here is to provide a
> > patch with the "before" being a guess for parts of the file and then
> > look for success or failure. How hard this is depends on file
> > structure (characters per line), etc.
>
> >
> > Line 670
> >   | POST    | datastore, data | <edit-config>       | create          |
> >   | POST    | operation       | specified operation | N/A             |
> >   | PUT     | data            | <edit-config>       | create, replace |
> > I don't folllow why "Access operation" is N/A for, e.g. "GET". an you
> explain?
> >
> > Line 673
> >   | PUT     | datastore       | <copy-config>       | replace         |
> >   | PATCH   | data, datastore | <edit-config>       | merge           |
> >   | DELETE  | data            | <edit-config>       | delete          |
> > "merge" does not appear in the list of access oeprations above.
> >
> > Line 1057
> >        match any of the user's groups, proceed to the next rule-list
> >        entry.
> > Assuming I am reading this correctly, it is not possible to have
> > access control entries for individuals but only only for
> > groups. There's nothing wrong with that, but you should make it clear
> > earlier. If I'm wrong, can you correct me and explain what I'm
> > missing.
> >
> >
>
> Mahesh Jethanandani
> mjethanandani@gmail.com
>
>
>
>

--001a11401a04bc9f6c055c633c78
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Mahesh Jethanandani <span dir=3D"ltr"=
>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mjethanan=
dani@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Eric=
,<br>
<br>
I will take a stab at trying to respond, and I will let the authors correct=
 me if I am wrong.<br>
<br>
&gt; On Oct 21, 2017, at 2:00 PM, Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@r=
tfm.com">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-<wbr>07: No Objection<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<=
br>
&gt; email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut thi=
s<br>
&gt; introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss=
-criteria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/i=
esg/<wbr>statement/discuss-criteria.<wbr>html</a><br>
&gt; for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br=
>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536=
bis/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wb=
r>doc/draft-ietf-netconf-<wbr>rfc6536bis/</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; ------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>=
----------<br>
&gt; COMMENT:<br>
&gt; ------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>=
----------<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Line 231<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 object.=C2=A0 One of &quot;none&quot;, &quot;read&=
quot;, &quot;create&quot;, &quot;delete&quot;, &quot;update&quot;, or<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;execute&quot;.<br>
&gt; Your table below does not make use of &quot;none&quot; but rather make=
s use of N/A. Are<br>
&gt; they the same?<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Line 469<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0The RESTCONF protocol [RFC8040] is used for network manage=
ment<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0purposes within this document.<br>
&gt; Maybe just merge these sentences?<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Line 559<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 is rejected with an &quot;access-denied&quot; erro=
r.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0The following sequence of conceptual processing steps is e=
xecuted for<br>
&gt; How does this discussion correspond to the diagram above. For instance=
, what<br>
&gt; does pre-read data node acc tl correspond to?<br>
<br>
The way I read the diagram is that the left/middle side of the diagram corr=
esponds to first set of bullet points below the diagram, and relate to acti=
ve sessions sending &lt;rpc&gt; message and actions to the server, while th=
e second set of bullet points correspond to the right side of the diagram a=
nd cover the access control as they relate to notifications. As an example,=
 if the user is not authorized to execute the specified operation shown on =
the left/middle side of the diagram, they would get a &quot;access-denied&q=
uot; error.<br>
<br>
Andy, the pre-read data acc. ctl, I thought implied the reading/caching of =
the NACM rules that had been configured before the first message/notificati=
on is issued - no?<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>No.</div=
><div><br></div><div>If there was an action called /interfaces/interface/re=
set-interface</div><div>then the group must be authorized to read /interfac=
es and read /interfaces/interface</div><div>and execute /interfaces/interfa=
ce/reset-interface.</div><div><br></div><div>The pre-read refers read acces=
s to data node ancestors of an action or notification.</div><div>Do you hav=
e text change suggestions?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Andy</di=
v><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
&gt;<br>
&gt; Line 648<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 operation for these nodes is considered to be &quo=
t;none&quot;.=C2=A0 The edit<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 begins at the target resource.<br>
&gt; IMPORTANT: I believe this creates a modest vulnerability to treat<br>
&gt; PATCH (and potentially PUT) this way because it allows the attacker to=
<br>
&gt; confirm a guess for the contents of a resource it could not have read<=
br>
&gt; (because the parents were unreadable). The attack here is to provide a=
<br>
&gt; patch with the &quot;before&quot; being a guess for parts of the file =
and then<br>
&gt; look for success or failure. How hard this is depends on file<br>
&gt; structure (characters per line), etc.<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Line 670<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0| POST=C2=A0 =C2=A0 | datastore, data | &lt;edit-config&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| create=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |<br=
>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0| POST=C2=A0 =C2=A0 | operation=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
| specified operation | N/A=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
|<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0| PUT=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| data=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | &lt;edit-config&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| create, re=
place |<br>
&gt; I don&#39;t folllow why &quot;Access operation&quot; is N/A for, e.g. =
&quot;GET&quot;. an you explain?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Line 673<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0| PUT=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| datastore=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0| &lt;copy-config&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| replace=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0| PATCH=C2=A0 =C2=A0| data, datastore | &lt;edit-config&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| merge=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0|<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0| DELETE=C2=A0 | data=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 | &lt;edit-config&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| delete=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |<br>
&gt; &quot;merge&quot; does not appear in the list of access oeprations abo=
ve.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Line 1057<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 match any of the user&#39;s groups, proceed=
 to the next rule-list<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 entry.<br>
&gt; Assuming I am reading this correctly, it is not possible to have<br>
&gt; access control entries for individuals but only only for<br>
&gt; groups. There&#39;s nothing wrong with that, but you should make it cl=
ear<br>
&gt; earlier. If I&#39;m wrong, can you correct me and explain what I&#39;m=
<br>
&gt; missing.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
Mahesh Jethanandani<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a11401a04bc9f6c055c633c78--


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From: Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>
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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 14:55:41 -0400
Cc: gen-art <gen-art@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis.all@ietf.org, netconf@ietf.org
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To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [Gen-art] Genart telechat review of draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07
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Stewart, thank you for your review. I have entered a Yes ballot.

Alissa

> On Oct 24, 2017, at 2:40 PM, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Reviewer: Stewart Bryant
> Review result: Ready
>=20
> I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area
> Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
> by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please wait for direction from your
> document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft.
>=20
> For more information, please see the FAQ at
>=20
> <https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq>.
>=20
> Document: draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07
> Reviewer: Stewart Bryant
> Review Date: 2017-10-24
> IETF LC End Date: 2017-10-25
> IESG Telechat date: 2017-10-26
>=20
> Summary: A well written document that is ready for publication
>=20
> Major issues: None
>=20
> Minor issues: None
>=20
> Nits/editorial comments:
>=20
> These are really minor but I notices them during the review.
>=20
> Paragraphs 1 and 2 of Section 2.2 (simplicity have a lot of =
overlapping
> content. Perhaps they could be merged.
>=20
> "This choice matches if all leafs present in the rule match the =
request." Maybe
> it is different  in C/S but the plural of leaf is usually leaves.
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Gen-art mailing list
> Gen-art@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gen-art


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From: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:14:19 -0700
Cc: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis@ietf.org, NETCONF WG chairs <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>, Netconf <netconf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: (with COMMENT)
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> On Oct 25, 2017, at 11:29 AM, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Mahesh Jethanandani =
<mjethanandani@gmail.com <mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Eric,
>=20
> I will take a stab at trying to respond, and I will let the authors =
correct me if I am wrong.
>=20
> > On Oct 21, 2017, at 2:00 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com =
<mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for
> > draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: No Objection
> >
> > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to =
all
> > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut =
this
> > introductory paragraph, however.)
> >
> >
> > Please refer to =
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html =
<https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html>
> > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> >
> >
> > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis/ =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis/>
> >
> >
> >
> > =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > COMMENT:
> > =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Line 231
> >      object.  One of "none", "read", "create", "delete", "update", =
or
> >      "execute".
> > Your table below does not make use of "none" but rather makes use of =
N/A. Are
> > they the same?
>=20
> >
> > Line 469
> >   The RESTCONF protocol [RFC8040] is used for network management
> >   purposes within this document.
> > Maybe just merge these sentences?
>=20
> >
> > Line 559
> >      is rejected with an "access-denied" error.
> >
> >   The following sequence of conceptual processing steps is executed =
for
> > How does this discussion correspond to the diagram above. For =
instance, what
> > does pre-read data node acc tl correspond to?
>=20
> The way I read the diagram is that the left/middle side of the diagram =
corresponds to first set of bullet points below the diagram, and relate =
to active sessions sending <rpc> message and actions to the server, =
while the second set of bullet points correspond to the right side of =
the diagram and cover the access control as they relate to =
notifications. As an example, if the user is not authorized to execute =
the specified operation shown on the left/middle side of the diagram, =
they would get a "access-denied" error.
>=20
> Andy, the pre-read data acc. ctl, I thought implied the =
reading/caching of the NACM rules that had been configured before the =
first message/notification is issued - no?
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> No.
>=20
> If there was an action called /interfaces/interface/reset-interface
> then the group must be authorized to read /interfaces and read =
/interfaces/interface
> and execute /interfaces/interface/reset-interface.
>=20
> The pre-read refers read access to data node ancestors of an action or =
notification.
> Do you have text change suggestions?

How about text to the same effect?

pre-read data acc. ctl refers to group read access as it relates to data =
node ancestors of an action or notification. As an example, if an action =
is defined as /interfaces/interface/reset-interface, the group must be =
authorized to read /interfaces and /interfaces/interface, and execute on =
/interfaces/interface/reset-interface.

>=20
>=20
> Andy
>=20
>=20
> >
> > Line 648
> >      operation for these nodes is considered to be "none".  The edit
> >      begins at the target resource.
> > IMPORTANT: I believe this creates a modest vulnerability to treat
> > PATCH (and potentially PUT) this way because it allows the attacker =
to
> > confirm a guess for the contents of a resource it could not have =
read
> > (because the parents were unreadable). The attack here is to provide =
a
> > patch with the "before" being a guess for parts of the file and then
> > look for success or failure. How hard this is depends on file
> > structure (characters per line), etc.
>=20
> >
> > Line 670
> >   | POST    | datastore, data | <edit-config>       | create         =
 |
> >   | POST    | operation       | specified operation | N/A            =
 |
> >   | PUT     | data            | <edit-config>       | create, =
replace |
> > I don't folllow why "Access operation" is N/A for, e.g. "GET". an =
you explain?
> >
> > Line 673
> >   | PUT     | datastore       | <copy-config>       | replace        =
 |
> >   | PATCH   | data, datastore | <edit-config>       | merge          =
 |
> >   | DELETE  | data            | <edit-config>       | delete         =
 |
> > "merge" does not appear in the list of access oeprations above.
> >
> > Line 1057
> >        match any of the user's groups, proceed to the next rule-list
> >        entry.
> > Assuming I am reading this correctly, it is not possible to have
> > access control entries for individuals but only only for
> > groups. There's nothing wrong with that, but you should make it =
clear
> > earlier. If I'm wrong, can you correct me and explain what I'm
> > missing.
> >
> >
>=20
> Mahesh Jethanandani
> mjethanandani@gmail.com <mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com>
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com




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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 25, 2017, at 11:29 AM, Andy Bierman &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" class=3D"">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 11:23 AM, =
Mahesh Jethanandani <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Eric,<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
I will take a stab at trying to respond, and I will let the authors =
correct me if I am wrong.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt; On Oct 21, 2017, at 2:00 PM, Eric Rescorla &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" class=3D"">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt; Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for<br =
class=3D"">
&gt; draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-<wbr class=3D"">07: No Objection<br =
class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt; When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to =
all<br class=3D"">
&gt; email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut =
this<br class=3D"">
&gt; introductory paragraph, however.)<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt; Please refer to <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/iesg/<wbr =
class=3D"">statement/discuss-criteria.<wbr class=3D"">html</a><br =
class=3D"">
&gt; for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br =
class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt; The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found =
here:<br class=3D"">
&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis/" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr =
class=3D"">doc/draft-ietf-netconf-<wbr class=3D"">rfc6536bis/</a><br =
class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt; ------------------------------<wbr =
class=3D"">------------------------------<wbr class=3D"">----------<br =
class=3D"">
&gt; COMMENT:<br class=3D"">
&gt; ------------------------------<wbr =
class=3D"">------------------------------<wbr class=3D"">----------<br =
class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt; Line 231<br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; object.&nbsp; One of "none", "read", "create", =
"delete", "update", or<br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "execute".<br class=3D"">
&gt; Your table below does not make use of "none" but rather makes use =
of N/A. Are<br class=3D"">
&gt; they the same?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt; Line 469<br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;The RESTCONF protocol [RFC8040] is used for network =
management<br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;purposes within this document.<br class=3D"">
&gt; Maybe just merge these sentences?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt; Line 559<br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; is rejected with an "access-denied" error.<br =
class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;The following sequence of conceptual processing steps =
is executed for<br class=3D"">
&gt; How does this discussion correspond to the diagram above. For =
instance, what<br class=3D"">
&gt; does pre-read data node acc tl correspond to?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
The way I read the diagram is that the left/middle side of the diagram =
corresponds to first set of bullet points below the diagram, and relate =
to active sessions sending &lt;rpc&gt; message and actions to the =
server, while the second set of bullet points correspond to the right =
side of the diagram and cover the access control as they relate to =
notifications. As an example, if the user is not authorized to execute =
the specified operation shown on the left/middle side of the diagram, =
they would get a "access-denied" error.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Andy, the pre-read data acc. ctl, I thought implied the reading/caching =
of the NACM rules that had been configured before the first =
message/notification is issued - no?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D""></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">No.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">If there was an action called =
/interfaces/interface/reset-interface</div><div class=3D"">then the =
group must be authorized to read /interfaces and read =
/interfaces/interface</div><div class=3D"">and execute =
/interfaces/interface/reset-interface.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The pre-read refers read access to data =
node ancestors of an action or notification.</div><div class=3D"">Do you =
have text change =
suggestions?</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>How about text to the same effect?</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>pre-read data acc. ctl refers to group read access =
as it relates to data node ancestors of an action or notification. As an =
example, if an action is defined as =
/interfaces/interface/reset-interface, the group must be authorized to =
read /interfaces and /interfaces/interface, and execute on =
/interfaces/interface/reset-interface.</div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Andy</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt; Line 648<br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; operation for these nodes is considered to be =
"none".&nbsp; The edit<br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; begins at the target resource.<br class=3D"">
&gt; IMPORTANT: I believe this creates a modest vulnerability to =
treat<br class=3D"">
&gt; PATCH (and potentially PUT) this way because it allows the attacker =
to<br class=3D"">
&gt; confirm a guess for the contents of a resource it could not have =
read<br class=3D"">
&gt; (because the parents were unreadable). The attack here is to =
provide a<br class=3D"">
&gt; patch with the "before" being a guess for parts of the file and =
then<br class=3D"">
&gt; look for success or failure. How hard this is depends on file<br =
class=3D"">
&gt; structure (characters per line), etc.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt; Line 670<br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;| POST&nbsp; &nbsp; | datastore, data | =
&lt;edit-config&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| create&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |<br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;| POST&nbsp; &nbsp; | operation&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;| specified operation | N/A&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;|<br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;| PUT&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| data&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | &lt;edit-config&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| =
create, replace |<br class=3D"">
&gt; I don't folllow why "Access operation" is N/A for, e.g. "GET". an =
you explain?<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt; Line 673<br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;| PUT&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| datastore&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;| &lt;copy-config&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| =
replace&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|<br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;| PATCH&nbsp; &nbsp;| data, datastore | =
&lt;edit-config&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| merge&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|<br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;| DELETE&nbsp; | data&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; | &lt;edit-config&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| delete&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |<br class=3D"">
&gt; "merge" does not appear in the list of access oeprations above.<br =
class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt; Line 1057<br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; match any of the user's groups, proceed =
to the next rule-list<br class=3D"">
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; entry.<br class=3D"">
&gt; Assuming I am reading this correctly, it is not possible to have<br =
class=3D"">
&gt; access control entries for individuals but only only for<br =
class=3D"">
&gt; groups. There's nothing wrong with that, but you should make it =
clear<br class=3D"">
&gt; earlier. If I'm wrong, can you correct me and explain what I'm<br =
class=3D"">
&gt; missing.<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
Mahesh Jethanandani<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</font></span></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Mahesh Jethanandani</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">

</div>
<br class=3D""></body></html>=

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Stewart,

> On Oct 24, 2017, at 11:40 AM, Stewart Bryant =
<stewart.bryant@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Reviewer: Stewart Bryant
> Review result: Ready
>=20
> I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area
> Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
> by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please wait for direction from your
> document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft.
>=20
> For more information, please see the FAQ at
>=20
> <https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq>.
>=20
> Document: draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07
> Reviewer: Stewart Bryant
> Review Date: 2017-10-24
> IETF LC End Date: 2017-10-25
> IESG Telechat date: 2017-10-26
>=20
> Summary: A well written document that is ready for publication
>=20
> Major issues: None
>=20
> Minor issues: None
>=20
> Nits/editorial comments:
>=20
> These are really minor but I notices them during the review.
>=20
> Paragraphs 1 and 2 of Section 2.2 (simplicity have a lot of =
overlapping
> content. Perhaps they could be merged.

How about this?

OLD:
   There is concern that a complicated ACM will not be widely deployed
   because it is too hard to use.  It needs to be easy to do simple
   things and possible to do complex things, instead of hard to do
   everything.

   Configuration of the access control system needs to be as simple as
   possible.  Simple and common tasks need to be easy to configure and
   require little expertise or domain-specific knowledge.  Complex tasks
   are possible using additional mechanisms, which may require
   additional expertise.

NEW:
   There is concern that a complicated ACM will not be widely deployed
   because it is too hard to use. Configuration of the access control=20
   system needs to be as simple as possible.  Simple and common tasks=20
   need to be easy to configure and require little expertise or=20
   domain-specific knowledge.  Complex tasks are possible using =
additional=20
   mechanisms, which may require additional expertise.


>=20
> "This choice matches if all leafs present in the rule match the =
request." Maybe
> it is different  in C/S but the plural of leaf is usually leaves.

I see two references to leafs in the model. Maybe we could change them =
as follows:

OLD:
"This choice matches if all leafs present in the rule
 match the request.  If no leafs are present, the
 choice matches all requests.";


NEW:
"This choice matches if all leaves present in the rule
 match the request.  If no leaves are present, the
 choice matches all requests.";


Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com




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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Stewart,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Oct 24, 2017, at 11:40 AM, =
Stewart Bryant &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Reviewer: Stewart Bryant<br class=3D"">Review result: =
Ready<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer =
for this draft. The General Area<br class=3D"">Review Team (Gen-ART) =
reviews all IETF documents being processed<br class=3D"">by the IESG for =
the IETF Chair. Please wait for direction from your<br class=3D"">document=
 shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">For more information, please see the FAQ at<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq" =
class=3D"">https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq</a>&gt;.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Document: draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07<br =
class=3D"">Reviewer: Stewart Bryant<br class=3D"">Review Date: =
2017-10-24<br class=3D"">IETF LC End Date: 2017-10-25<br class=3D"">IESG =
Telechat date: 2017-10-26<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Summary: A well =
written document that is ready for publication<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Major issues: None<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Minor issues: =
None<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Nits/editorial comments:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">These are really minor but I notices them =
during the review.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Paragraphs 1 and 2 of =
Section 2.2 (simplicity have a lot of overlapping<br class=3D"">content. =
Perhaps they could be merged.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>How about =
this?<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""></div>OLD:</div><div><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.3333px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: =
2;">   There is concern that a complicated ACM will not be widely =
deployed
   because it is too hard to use.  It needs to be easy to do simple
   things and possible to do complex things, instead of hard to do
   everything.

   Configuration of the access control system needs to be as simple as
   possible.  Simple and common tasks need to be easy to configure and
   require little expertise or domain-specific knowledge.  Complex tasks
   are possible using additional mechanisms, which may require
   additional expertise.</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: =
13.3333px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: =
normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2;"><br class=3D""></pre><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.3333px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: =
2;">NEW:</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.3333px; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; =
orphans: 2; widows: 2;"><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: =
13.3333px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: =
normal;">   There is concern that a complicated ACM will not be widely =
deployed
   because it is too hard to use. Configuration of the access =
control&nbsp;</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.3333px; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;">   =
system needs to be as simple as possible.  Simple and common =
tasks&nbsp;</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.3333px; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;">   =
need to be easy to configure and require little expertise =
or&nbsp;</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.3333px; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;">   =
domain-specific knowledge.  Complex tasks are possible using =
additional&nbsp;</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: =
13.3333px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: =
normal;">   mechanisms, which may require additional =
expertise.</pre><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></pre><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">"This choice matches if all =
leafs present in the rule match the request." Maybe<br class=3D"">it is =
different &nbsp;in C/S but the plural of leaf is usually leaves.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><br class=3D""></div><div>I see two =
references to leafs in the model. Maybe we could change them as =
follows:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>OLD:</div><div><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.3333px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: =
2;">"This choice matches if all leafs present in the rule
 match the request.  If no leafs are present, the
 choice matches all requests.";</pre><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">NEW:</div><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"font-size: 13.3333px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2;">"This choice =
matches if all leaves present in the rule
 match the request.  If no leaves are present, the
 choice matches all requests.";</pre><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Mahesh Jethanandani</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">

</div>
<br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:25:35 -0700
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Genart telechat review of draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07
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--94eb2c0c884a2449b5055c6405d7
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 12:21 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani <
mjethanandani@gmail.com> wrote:

> Stewart,
>
> On Oct 24, 2017, at 11:40 AM, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Reviewer: Stewart Bryant
> Review result: Ready
>
> I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area
> Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
> by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please wait for direction from your
> document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft.
>
> For more information, please see the FAQ at
>
> <https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq>.
>
> Document: draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07
> Reviewer: Stewart Bryant
> Review Date: 2017-10-24
> IETF LC End Date: 2017-10-25
> IESG Telechat date: 2017-10-26
>
> Summary: A well written document that is ready for publication
>
> Major issues: None
>
> Minor issues: None
>
> Nits/editorial comments:
>
> These are really minor but I notices them during the review.
>
> Paragraphs 1 and 2 of Section 2.2 (simplicity have a lot of overlapping
> content. Perhaps they could be merged.
>
>
> How about this?
>
> OLD:
>
>    There is concern that a complicated ACM will not be widely deployed
>    because it is too hard to use.  It needs to be easy to do simple
>    things and possible to do complex things, instead of hard to do
>    everything.
>
>    Configuration of the access control system needs to be as simple as
>    possible.  Simple and common tasks need to be easy to configure and
>    require little expertise or domain-specific knowledge.  Complex tasks
>    are possible using additional mechanisms, which may require
>    additional expertise.
>
>
> NEW:
>
>    There is concern that a complicated ACM will not be widely deployed
>    because it is too hard to use. Configuration of the access control
>
>    system needs to be as simple as possible.  Simple and common tasks
>
>    need to be easy to configure and require little expertise or
>
>    domain-specific knowledge.  Complex tasks are possible using additional
>
>    mechanisms, which may require additional expertise.
>
>
>
>
>

OK with me





> "This choice matches if all leafs present in the rule match the request."
> Maybe
> it is different  in C/S but the plural of leaf is usually leaves.
>
>
> I see two references to leafs in the model. Maybe we could change them as
> follows:
>
> OLD:
>
> "This choice matches if all leafs present in the rule
>  match the request.  If no leafs are present, the
>  choice matches all requests.";
>
>
>
> NEW:
>
> "This choice matches if all leaves present in the rule
>  match the request.  If no leaves are present, the
>  choice matches all requests.";
>
>
>

Actually the term "leafs" is used 31 times in RFC 7950.
The term "leaves" is used zero times.
I think the same is true in all existing YANG-related RFCs.



>
> Mahesh Jethanandani
> mjethanandani@gmail.com
>
>
>


Andy

--94eb2c0c884a2449b5055c6405d7
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 12:21 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani <span dir=3D"ltr"=
>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mjethanan=
dani@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div=
 style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Stewart,<div><br><div><blockquote type=3D"c=
ite"><div>On Oct 24, 2017, at 11:40 AM, Stewart Bryant &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_4934709128939608233Apple-interchange-newline=
"><div><div>Reviewer: Stewart Bryant<br>Review result: Ready<br><br>I am th=
e assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area<br>Review Team=
 (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed<br>by the IESG for th=
e IETF Chair. Please wait for direction from your<br>document shepherd or A=
D before posting a new version of the draft.<br><br>For more information, p=
lease see the FAQ at<br><br>&lt;<a href=3D"https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/w=
iki/GenArtfaq" target=3D"_blank">https://trac.ietf.org/trac/<wbr>gen/wiki/G=
enArtfaq</a>&gt;.<br><br>Document: draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-<wbr>07<br=
>Reviewer: Stewart Bryant<br>Review Date: 2017-10-24<br>IETF LC End Date: 2=
017-10-25<br>IESG Telechat date: 2017-10-26<br><br>Summary: A well written =
document that is ready for publication<br><br>Major issues: None<br><br>Min=
or issues: None<br><br>Nits/editorial comments:<br><br>These are really min=
or but I notices them during the review.<br><br>Paragraphs 1 and 2 of Secti=
on 2.2 (simplicity have a lot of overlapping<br>content. Perhaps they could=
 be merged.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>How about this?<br><=
div><br></div>OLD:</div><div><pre class=3D"m_4934709128939608233newpage" st=
yle=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-variant-li=
gatures:normal">   There is concern that a complicated ACM will not be wide=
ly deployed
   because it is too hard to use.  It needs to be easy to do simple
   things and possible to do complex things, instead of hard to do
   everything.

   Configuration of the access control system needs to be as simple as
   possible.  Simple and common tasks need to be easy to configure and
   require little expertise or domain-specific knowledge.  Complex tasks
   are possible using additional mechanisms, which may require
   additional expertise.</pre><pre class=3D"m_4934709128939608233newpage" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-variant-l=
igatures:normal"><br></pre><pre class=3D"m_4934709128939608233newpage" styl=
e=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-variant-liga=
tures:normal">NEW:</pre><pre class=3D"m_4934709128939608233newpage" style=
=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-variant-ligat=
ures:normal"><pre class=3D"m_4934709128939608233newpage" style=3D"font-size=
:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal">=
   There is concern that a complicated ACM will not be widely deployed
   because it is too hard to use. Configuration of the access control=C2=A0=
</pre><pre class=3D"m_4934709128939608233newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333=
3px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal">   syst=
em needs to be as simple as possible.  Simple and common tasks=C2=A0</pre><=
pre class=3D"m_4934709128939608233newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;mar=
gin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal">   need to be =
easy to configure and require little expertise or=C2=A0</pre><pre class=3D"=
m_4934709128939608233newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;m=
argin-bottom:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal">   domain-specific knowledg=
e.  Complex tasks are possible using additional=C2=A0</pre><pre class=3D"m_=
4934709128939608233newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;mar=
gin-bottom:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal">   mechanisms, which may requ=
ire additional expertise.</pre><div><br></div></pre><div><br></div><blockqu=
ote type=3D"cite"><div><div><br></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div>=
</blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>OK with me</div><div><br></=
div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><blockquote type=3D"ci=
te"><div><div>&quot;This choice matches if all leafs present in the rule ma=
tch the request.&quot; Maybe<br>it is different =C2=A0in C/S but the plural=
 of leaf is usually leaves.<br></div></div></blockquote><br></div><div>I se=
e two references to leafs in the model. Maybe we could change them as follo=
ws:</div><div><br></div><div>OLD:</div><div><pre class=3D"m_493470912893960=
8233newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;=
font-variant-ligatures:normal">&quot;This choice matches if all leafs prese=
nt in the rule
 match the request.  If no leafs are present, the
 choice matches all requests.&quot;;</pre><div><br></div><div><br></div><di=
v>NEW:</div><div><pre class=3D"m_4934709128939608233newpage" style=3D"font-=
size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-variant-ligatures:norm=
al">&quot;This choice matches if all leaves present in the rule
 match the request.  If no leaves are present, the
 choice matches all requests.&quot;;</pre><div><br></div></div></div></div>=
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Actually the term &qu=
ot;leafs&quot; is used 31 times in RFC 7950.</div><div>The term &quot;leave=
s&quot; is used zero times.</div><div>I think the same is true in all exist=
ing YANG-related RFCs.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div><div></d=
iv></div></div><br><div>
<div>Mahesh Jethanandani</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a></div><div><br></div><br cl=
ass=3D"m_4934709128939608233Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div></div></=
blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div=
>=C2=A0</div></div><br></div></div>

--94eb2c0c884a2449b5055c6405d7--


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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>, Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
CC: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, General Area Review Team <gen-art@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis.all@ietf.org>, IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>, Netconf <netconf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Genart telechat review of draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Genart telechat review of draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis- ***07
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Kent Watsen writes:
>   > Actually the term "leafs" is used 31 times in RFC 7950.
>   > The term "leaves" is used zero times.
>   > I think the same is true in all existing YANG-related RFCs.
>
>    Agreed.  I always see "leafs".  I don't think we should change this.

Agreed.  Nothing wrong with "leafs".

Thanks,
 Phil


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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 15:23:31 -0700
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To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis@ietf.org,  Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>, NETCONF Working Group <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>,  Netconf <netconf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: (with COMMENT)
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On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 10:44 AM, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>
>> Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for
>> draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: No Objection
>>
>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>
>>
>> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>
>>
>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis/
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> COMMENT:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>
> Thanks for your review.
> These line numbers do not line up with the draft in my editor.
> I will try to guess the section and paragraph anyway.
>
>
>
>> Line 231
>>       object.  One of "none", "read", "create", "delete", "update", or
>>       "execute".
>> Your table below does not make use of "none" but rather makes use of N/A.
>> Are
>> they the same?
>>
>>
>
> This is a bug.
> I will change N/A to "none" in Table 1.
> Also note a bug in table 1. The access operation for POST operation should
> be "execute", not "N/A". I will fix that as well. (see new table 1 below)
>
>
>
>
>
>> Line 469
>>    The RESTCONF protocol [RFC8040] is used for network management
>>    purposes within this document.
>> Maybe just merge these sentences?
>>
>>
> OLD:
>
> 3.1.2.  External Dependencies
>
>    The NETCONF protocol [RFC6241] is used for network management
>    purposes within this document.
>
>    The RESTCONF protocol [RFC8040] is used for network management
>    purposes within this document.
>
>
> NEW:
>
>    The NETCONF protocol [RFC6241] and RESTCONF protocol [RFC8040]
>    are used for network management purposes within this document.
>
>
> Line 559
>>       is rejected with an "access-denied" error.
>>
>>    The following sequence of conceptual processing steps is executed for
>> How does this discussion correspond to the diagram above. For instance,
>> what
>> does pre-read data node acc tl correspond to?
>>
>
>
> The "pre-read" applies to actions not "rpc" so there is no text in page
> 13, para 1, 4 bullet lists
> I do not have any proposed changes for this issue.
>
>
>
>
>
>> Line 648
>>       operation for these nodes is considered to be "none".  The edit
>>       begins at the target resource.
>> IMPORTANT: I believe this creates a modest vulnerability to treat
>> PATCH (and potentially PUT) this way because it allows the attacker to
>> confirm a guess for the contents of a resource it could not have read
>> (because the parents were unreadable). The attack here is to provide a
>> patch with the "before" being a guess for parts of the file and then
>> look for success or failure. How hard this is depends on file
>> structure (characters per line), etc.
>>
>
>
> The purpose of this text is to support user-specific access within a
> more-restricted resource.
> As an analogy, I can do "ls /home" on my linux PC and see all the users
> that are setup,
> but I cannot access any of the user dirs (except my own).
>
> I think this was raised as a RESTCONF issue.
> The server can return 403 or 404 if access is denied.
> Here is some text from the RFC 8040, 4.6:
>
>    If the user is not authorized to alter the target resource, an error
>    response containing a "403 Forbidden" status-line SHOULD be returned.
>    A server MAY return a "404 Not Found" status-line, as described in
>    Section 6.5.4 in [RFC7231] <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-6.5.4>.
>
>
>  I do not have any suggested edits for this issue.
>

So I understand the notion of having the parent not be required, but the
point here is that having
asymmetry between the read and write conditions leads to unexpected
consequences, including
security failures.



>
>
>> Line 1057
>>         match any of the user's groups, proceed to the next rule-list
>>         entry.
>> Assuming I am reading this correctly, it is not possible to have
>> access control entries for individuals but only only for
>> groups. There's nothing wrong with that, but you should make it clear
>> earlier. If I'm wrong, can you correct me and explain what I'm
>> missing.
>>
>>
>>
> Sec 3.3.2 para 3:
>
> OLD:
>
>    A group member is identified by a username string.
>
> NEW:
>
>    A group contains zero or more group members.
>    A group member is identified by a username string.
>

Hmm... I was more thinking
"Access control is applied at the level of groups. A group consists of zero
or more members"



>
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>

--f403045e8bded9ead5055c668320
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 10:44 AM, Andy Bierman <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a=
>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span class=3D"">=
On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Eric Rescorla <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;</span> wro=
te:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Eric Rescorla has =
entered the following ballot position for<br>
draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-<wbr>07: No Objection<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<br>
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<br>
introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crit=
eria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/iesg/s=
tat<wbr>ement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis/"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d<wbr>oc=
/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536b<wbr>is/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>-----=
-----<br>
COMMENT:<br>
------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>-----=
-----<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div></span><div>Thanks for your =
review.</div><div>These line numbers do not line up with the draft in my ed=
itor.</div><div>I will try to guess the section and paragraph anyway.</div>=
<span class=3D""><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);padding-left:1ex">
Line 231<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 object.=C2=A0 One of &quot;none&quot;, &quot;read&quot=
;, &quot;create&quot;, &quot;delete&quot;, &quot;update&quot;, or<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;execute&quot;.<br>
Your table below does not make use of &quot;none&quot; but rather makes use=
 of N/A. Are<br>
they the same?<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div></span><div>This is a bug.</=
div><div>I will change N/A to &quot;none&quot; in Table 1.</div><div>Also n=
ote a bug in table 1. The access operation for POST operation should</div><=
div>be &quot;execute&quot;, not &quot;N/A&quot;. I will fix that as well. (=
see new table 1 below)</div><span class=3D""><div><br></div><div><br></div>=
<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex">
Line 469<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The RESTCONF protocol [RFC8040] is used for network management=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0purposes within this document.<br>
Maybe just merge these sentences?<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>OLD:</div><div><br></div><div><=
div>3.1.2.=C2=A0 External Dependencies</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0The NETCONF protocol [RFC6241] is used for network management</div><span=
 class=3D""><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0purposes within this document.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The RESTCONF protocol [RFC8040] is used for network=
 management</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0purposes within this document.</div></sp=
an></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>NEW:</div><div><br></div><div><=
div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The NETCONF protocol [RFC6241] and RESTCONF protocol [RFC8=
040]</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0are used for network management purposes within=
 this document.</div><div><br></div></div><span class=3D""><div><br></div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Line 559<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 is rejected with an &quot;access-denied&quot; error.<b=
r>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The following sequence of conceptual processing steps is execu=
ted for<br>
How does this discussion correspond to the diagram above. For instance, wha=
t<br>
does pre-read data node acc tl correspond to?<br></blockquote><div><br></di=
v><div><br></div></span><div>The &quot;pre-read&quot; applies to actions no=
t &quot;rpc&quot; so there is no text in page 13, para 1, 4 bullet lists</d=
iv><div>I do not have any proposed changes for this issue.</div><span class=
=3D""><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Line 648<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 operation for these nodes is considered to be &quot;no=
ne&quot;.=C2=A0 The edit<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 begins at the target resource.<br>
IMPORTANT: I believe this creates a modest vulnerability to treat<br>
PATCH (and potentially PUT) this way because it allows the attacker to<br>
confirm a guess for the contents of a resource it could not have read<br>
(because the parents were unreadable). The attack here is to provide a<br>
patch with the &quot;before&quot; being a guess for parts of the file and t=
hen<br>
look for success or failure. How hard this is depends on file<br>
structure (characters per line), etc.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><=
br></div></span><div>The purpose of this text is to support user-specific a=
ccess within a more-restricted resource.</div><div>As an analogy, I can do =
&quot;ls /home&quot; on my linux PC and see all the users that are setup,</=
div><div>but I cannot access any of the user dirs (except my own).</div><di=
v><br></div><div>I think this was raised as a RESTCONF issue.</div><div>The=
 server can return 403 or 404 if access is denied.</div><div>Here is some t=
ext from the RFC 8040, 4.6:</div><div><br></div><div><pre class=3D"m_716650=
5710614659878gmail-m_3184789367726537118gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:1=
3.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">   If the user =
is not authorized to alter the target resource, an error
   response containing a &quot;403 Forbidden&quot; status-line SHOULD be re=
turned.
   A server MAY return a &quot;404 Not Found&quot; status-line, as describe=
d in
   <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-6.5.4" target=3D"=
_blank">Section=C2=A06.5.4 in [RFC7231]</a>. </pre></div><div><br></div><di=
v>=C2=A0I do not have any suggested edits for this issue.</div></div></div>=
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>So I understand the notion of having=
 the parent not be required, but the point here is that having</div><div>as=
ymmetry between the read and write conditions leads to unexpected consequen=
ces, including</div><div>security failures.</div><div><br></div><div><br></=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span class=3D""><div><br></div></span><span=
 class=3D""><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex">
Line 1057<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 match any of the user&#39;s groups, proceed to =
the next rule-list<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 entry.<br>
Assuming I am reading this correctly, it is not possible to have<br>
access control entries for individuals but only only for<br>
groups. There&#39;s nothing wrong with that, but you should make it clear<b=
r>
earlier. If I&#39;m wrong, can you correct me and explain what I&#39;m<br>
missing.<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></span></div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Sec 3.3.2 pa=
ra 3:</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
OLD:</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0A group member is identified by a username string.<br></div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">NEW:</div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=C2=A0 =C2=A0A=
 group contains zero or more group members.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0A group member is identified by a username string.</div></div=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Hmm... I was more thinking</div><div>&quo=
t;Access control is applied at the level of groups. A group consists of zer=
o or more members&quot;</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><span class=3D"H=
OEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br></font></span></div><span class=3D"HOEnZ=
b"><font color=3D"#888888"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Andy</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div></font></span></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--f403045e8bded9ead5055c668320--


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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 15:23:57 -0700
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To: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
Cc: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>,  draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis@ietf.org,  NETCONF WG chairs <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>, Netconf <netconf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: (with COMMENT)
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

OK.

On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 12:14 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani <
mjethanandani@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Oct 25, 2017, at 11:29 AM, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Mahesh Jethanandani <
> mjethanandani@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Eric,
>>
>> I will take a stab at trying to respond, and I will let the authors
>> correct me if I am wrong.
>>
>> > On Oct 21, 2017, at 2:00 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for
>> > draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: No Objection
>> >
>> > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>> > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>> > introductory paragraph, however.)
>> >
>> >
>> > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/stat
>> ement/discuss-criteria.html
>> > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>> >
>> >
>> > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > COMMENT:
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Line 231
>> >      object.  One of "none", "read", "create", "delete", "update", or
>> >      "execute".
>> > Your table below does not make use of "none" but rather makes use of
>> N/A. Are
>> > they the same?
>>
>> >
>> > Line 469
>> >   The RESTCONF protocol [RFC8040] is used for network management
>> >   purposes within this document.
>> > Maybe just merge these sentences?
>>
>> >
>> > Line 559
>> >      is rejected with an "access-denied" error.
>> >
>> >   The following sequence of conceptual processing steps is executed for
>> > How does this discussion correspond to the diagram above. For instance,
>> what
>> > does pre-read data node acc tl correspond to?
>>
>> The way I read the diagram is that the left/middle side of the diagram
>> corresponds to first set of bullet points below the diagram, and relate to
>> active sessions sending <rpc> message and actions to the server, while the
>> second set of bullet points correspond to the right side of the diagram and
>> cover the access control as they relate to notifications. As an example, if
>> the user is not authorized to execute the specified operation shown on the
>> left/middle side of the diagram, they would get a "access-denied" error.
>>
>> Andy, the pre-read data acc. ctl, I thought implied the reading/caching
>> of the NACM rules that had been configured before the first
>> message/notification is issued - no?
>>
>>
>
>
> No.
>
> If there was an action called /interfaces/interface/reset-interface
> then the group must be authorized to read /interfaces and read
> /interfaces/interface
> and execute /interfaces/interface/reset-interface.
>
> The pre-read refers read access to data node ancestors of an action or
> notification.
> Do you have text change suggestions?
>
>
> How about text to the same effect?
>
> pre-read data acc. ctl refers to group read access as it relates to data
> node ancestors of an action or notification. As an example, if an action is
> defined as /interfaces/interface/reset-interface, the group must be
> authorized to read /interfaces and /interfaces/interface, and execute on
> /interfaces/interface/reset-interface.
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
> >
>> > Line 648
>> >      operation for these nodes is considered to be "none".  The edit
>> >      begins at the target resource.
>> > IMPORTANT: I believe this creates a modest vulnerability to treat
>> > PATCH (and potentially PUT) this way because it allows the attacker to
>> > confirm a guess for the contents of a resource it could not have read
>> > (because the parents were unreadable). The attack here is to provide a
>> > patch with the "before" being a guess for parts of the file and then
>> > look for success or failure. How hard this is depends on file
>> > structure (characters per line), etc.
>>
>> >
>> > Line 670
>> >   | POST    | datastore, data | <edit-config>       | create          |
>> >   | POST    | operation       | specified operation | N/A             |
>> >   | PUT     | data            | <edit-config>       | create, replace |
>> > I don't folllow why "Access operation" is N/A for, e.g. "GET". an you
>> explain?
>> >
>> > Line 673
>> >   | PUT     | datastore       | <copy-config>       | replace         |
>> >   | PATCH   | data, datastore | <edit-config>       | merge           |
>> >   | DELETE  | data            | <edit-config>       | delete          |
>> > "merge" does not appear in the list of access oeprations above.
>> >
>> > Line 1057
>> >        match any of the user's groups, proceed to the next rule-list
>> >        entry.
>> > Assuming I am reading this correctly, it is not possible to have
>> > access control entries for individuals but only only for
>> > groups. There's nothing wrong with that, but you should make it clear
>> > earlier. If I'm wrong, can you correct me and explain what I'm
>> > missing.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Mahesh Jethanandani
>> mjethanandani@gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Mahesh Jethanandani
> mjethanandani@gmail.com
>
>
>
>

--001a1142d0d45feda3055c66854c
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">OK.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 12:14 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani <span dir=3D=
"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mjet=
hanandani@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><br><div><div><div class=3D"h5"><block=
quote type=3D"cite"><div>On Oct 25, 2017, at 11:29 AM, Andy Bierman &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_-2316192486414133213Apple-interchange-newli=
ne"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Mahesh Jethanandani <span di=
r=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
mjethanandani@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex">Eric,<br>
<br>
I will take a stab at trying to respond, and I will let the authors correct=
 me if I am wrong.<br>
<br>
&gt; On Oct 21, 2017, at 2:00 PM, Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@r=
tfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-<wbr>07: No Objection<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<=
br>
&gt; email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut thi=
s<br>
&gt; introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss=
-criteria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/i=
esg/stat<wbr>ement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
&gt; for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br=
>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536=
bis/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d<w=
br>oc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536b<wbr>is/</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; ------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>=
----------<br>
&gt; COMMENT:<br>
&gt; ------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>=
----------<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Line 231<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 object.=C2=A0 One of &quot;none&quot;, &quot;read&=
quot;, &quot;create&quot;, &quot;delete&quot;, &quot;update&quot;, or<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;execute&quot;.<br>
&gt; Your table below does not make use of &quot;none&quot; but rather make=
s use of N/A. Are<br>
&gt; they the same?<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Line 469<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0The RESTCONF protocol [RFC8040] is used for network manage=
ment<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0purposes within this document.<br>
&gt; Maybe just merge these sentences?<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Line 559<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 is rejected with an &quot;access-denied&quot; erro=
r.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0The following sequence of conceptual processing steps is e=
xecuted for<br>
&gt; How does this discussion correspond to the diagram above. For instance=
, what<br>
&gt; does pre-read data node acc tl correspond to?<br>
<br>
The way I read the diagram is that the left/middle side of the diagram corr=
esponds to first set of bullet points below the diagram, and relate to acti=
ve sessions sending &lt;rpc&gt; message and actions to the server, while th=
e second set of bullet points correspond to the right side of the diagram a=
nd cover the access control as they relate to notifications. As an example,=
 if the user is not authorized to execute the specified operation shown on =
the left/middle side of the diagram, they would get a &quot;access-denied&q=
uot; error.<br>
<br>
Andy, the pre-read data acc. ctl, I thought implied the reading/caching of =
the NACM rules that had been configured before the first message/notificati=
on is issued - no?<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>No.</div=
><div><br></div><div>If there was an action called /interfaces/interface/re=
set-<wbr>interface</div><div>then the group must be authorized to read /int=
erfaces and read /interfaces/interface</div><div>and execute /interfaces/in=
terface/reset-<wbr>interface.</div><div><br></div><div>The pre-read refers =
read access to data node ancestors of an action or notification.</div><div>=
Do you have text change suggestions?</div></div></div></div></div></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div></div></div>How about text to the same effect?</div><div=
><br></div><div>pre-read data acc. ctl refers to group read access as it re=
lates to data node ancestors of an action or notification. As an example, i=
f an action is defined as /interfaces/interface/reset-<wbr>interface, the g=
roup must be authorized to read /interfaces and /interfaces/interface, and =
execute on /interfaces/interface/reset-<wbr>interface.</div><div><div class=
=3D"h5"><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div><br></div><=
div>Andy</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
&gt;<br>
&gt; Line 648<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 operation for these nodes is considered to be &quo=
t;none&quot;.=C2=A0 The edit<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 begins at the target resource.<br>
&gt; IMPORTANT: I believe this creates a modest vulnerability to treat<br>
&gt; PATCH (and potentially PUT) this way because it allows the attacker to=
<br>
&gt; confirm a guess for the contents of a resource it could not have read<=
br>
&gt; (because the parents were unreadable). The attack here is to provide a=
<br>
&gt; patch with the &quot;before&quot; being a guess for parts of the file =
and then<br>
&gt; look for success or failure. How hard this is depends on file<br>
&gt; structure (characters per line), etc.<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Line 670<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0| POST=C2=A0 =C2=A0 | datastore, data | &lt;edit-config&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| create=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |<br=
>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0| POST=C2=A0 =C2=A0 | operation=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
| specified operation | N/A=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
|<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0| PUT=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| data=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | &lt;edit-config&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| create, re=
place |<br>
&gt; I don&#39;t folllow why &quot;Access operation&quot; is N/A for, e.g. =
&quot;GET&quot;. an you explain?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Line 673<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0| PUT=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| datastore=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0| &lt;copy-config&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| replace=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0| PATCH=C2=A0 =C2=A0| data, datastore | &lt;edit-config&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| merge=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0|<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0| DELETE=C2=A0 | data=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 | &lt;edit-config&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| delete=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |<br>
&gt; &quot;merge&quot; does not appear in the list of access oeprations abo=
ve.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Line 1057<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 match any of the user&#39;s groups, proceed=
 to the next rule-list<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 entry.<br>
&gt; Assuming I am reading this correctly, it is not possible to have<br>
&gt; access control entries for individuals but only only for<br>
&gt; groups. There&#39;s nothing wrong with that, but you should make it cl=
ear<br>
&gt; earlier. If I&#39;m wrong, can you correct me and explain what I&#39;m=
<br>
&gt; missing.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<span class=3D"m_-2316192486414133213HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
Mahesh Jethanandani<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mjethanandani@=
gmail.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br></div></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=
=3D"#888888"><div>
<div>Mahesh Jethanandani</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a></div><div><br></div><br cl=
ass=3D"m_-2316192486414133213Apple-interchange-newline">

</div>
<br></font></span></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a1142d0d45feda3055c66854c--


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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] review of draft-ietf-netconf-ssh-client-server-03 and draft-ietf-netconf-tls-client-server-03
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To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>, Netconf <netconf@ietf.org>,  draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis@ietf.org, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, NETCONF Working Group <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>
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From: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 17:50:35 -0500
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: (with COMMENT)
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On 10/25/17 5:23 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 10:44 AM, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com 
> <mailto:andy@yumaworks.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>     On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com
>     <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>> wrote:
>
>
>         Line 648
>         Â  Â  Â  operation for these nodes is considered to be "none".Â 
>         The edit
>         Â  Â  Â  begins at the target resource.
>         IMPORTANT: I believe this creates a modest vulnerability to treat
>         PATCH (and potentially PUT) this way because it allows the
>         attacker to
>         confirm a guess for the contents of a resource it could not
>         have read
>         (because the parents were unreadable). The attack here is to
>         provide a
>         patch with the "before" being a guess for parts of the file
>         and then
>         look for success or failure. How hard this is depends on file
>         structure (characters per line), etc.
>
>
>
>     The purpose of this text is to support user-specific access within
>     a more-restricted resource.
>     As an analogy, I can do "ls /home" on my linux PC and see all the
>     users that are setup,
>     but I cannot access any of the user dirs (except my own).
>
>     I think this was raised as a RESTCONF issue.
>     The server can return 403 or 404 if access is denied.
>     Here is some text from the RFC 8040, 4.6:
>
>         If the user is not authorized to alter the target resource, an error
>         response containing a "403 Forbidden" status-line SHOULD be returned.
>         A server MAY return a "404 Not Found" status-line, as described in
>         SectionÂ 6.5.4 in [RFC7231]
>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-6.5.4>.
>
>
>     Â I do not have any suggested edits for this issue.
>
>
> So I understand the notion of having the parent not be required, but 
> the point here is that having
> asymmetry between the read and write conditions leads to unexpected 
> consequences, including
> security failures.

Andy -- if your analogy holds, then the ability to perform PUT, PATCH, 
or DELETE on a resource implies that the user must also be authorized to 
*read* ancestor nodes of that resource. Is that what is intended here? 
If so, I think text to that effect may address the concern that Eric has 
raised.

/a

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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/25/17 5:23 PM, Eric Rescorla
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABcZeBM0oM9eWsPFb8NfV6aq0oezro6KNqdo9yccVTSg=g7G6g@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr"><br>
        <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
          <div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 10:44 AM,
            Andy Bierman <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a
                href="mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" target="_blank"
                moz-do-not-send="true">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;</span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <div dir="ltr"><br>
                <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                  <br>
                  <div class="gmail_quote"><span class="">On Sat, Oct
                      21, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Eric Rescorla <span
                        dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:ekr@rtfm.com"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;</span>
                      wrote:<br>
                    </span><span class="">
                      <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
                        0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
                        rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                        <br>
                        Line 648<br>
                        Â  Â  Â  operation for these nodes is considered to
                        be "none".Â  The edit<br>
                        Â  Â  Â  begins at the target resource.<br>
                        IMPORTANT: I believe this creates a modest
                        vulnerability to treat<br>
                        PATCH (and potentially PUT) this way because it
                        allows the attacker to<br>
                        confirm a guess for the contents of a resource
                        it could not have read<br>
                        (because the parents were unreadable). The
                        attack here is to provide a<br>
                        patch with the "before" being a guess for parts
                        of the file and then<br>
                        look for success or failure. How hard this is
                        depends on file<br>
                        structure (characters per line), etc.<br>
                      </blockquote>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                    </span>
                    <div>The purpose of this text is to support
                      user-specific access within a more-restricted
                      resource.</div>
                    <div>As an analogy, I can do "ls /home" on my linux
                      PC and see all the users that are setup,</div>
                    <div>but I cannot access any of the user dirs
                      (except my own).</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>I think this was raised as a RESTCONF issue.</div>
                    <div>The server can return 403 or 404 if access is
                      denied.</div>
                    <div>Here is some text from the RFC 8040, 4.6:</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <pre class="m_7166505710614659878gmail-m_3184789367726537118gmail-newpage" style="font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">   If the user is not authorized to alter the target resource, an error
   response containing a "403 Forbidden" status-line SHOULD be returned.
   A server MAY return a "404 Not Found" status-line, as described in
   <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-6.5.4" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">SectionÂ 6.5.4 in [RFC7231]</a>. </pre>
                    </div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>Â I do not have any suggested edits for this
                      issue.</div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>So I understand the notion of having the parent not be
              required, but the point here is that having</div>
            <div>asymmetry between the read and write conditions leads
              to unexpected consequences, including</div>
            <div>security failures.</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Andy -- if your analogy holds, then the ability to perform PUT,
    PATCH, or DELETE on a resource implies that the user must also be
    authorized to *read* ancestor nodes of that resource. Is that what
    is intended here? If so, I think text to that effect may address the
    concern that Eric has raised.<br>
    <br>
    /a<br>
  </body>
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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 16:08:58 -0700
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To: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
Cc: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>, Netconf <netconf@ietf.org>,  draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis@ietf.org, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>,  NETCONF Working Group <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: (with COMMENT)
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On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:

> On 10/25/17 5:23 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 10:44 AM, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Line 648
>>>       operation for these nodes is considered to be "none".  The edit
>>>       begins at the target resource.
>>> IMPORTANT: I believe this creates a modest vulnerability to treat
>>> PATCH (and potentially PUT) this way because it allows the attacker to
>>> confirm a guess for the contents of a resource it could not have read
>>> (because the parents were unreadable). The attack here is to provide a
>>> patch with the "before" being a guess for parts of the file and then
>>> look for success or failure. How hard this is depends on file
>>> structure (characters per line), etc.
>>>
>>
>>
>> The purpose of this text is to support user-specific access within a
>> more-restricted resource.
>> As an analogy, I can do "ls /home" on my linux PC and see all the users
>> that are setup,
>> but I cannot access any of the user dirs (except my own).
>>
>> I think this was raised as a RESTCONF issue.
>> The server can return 403 or 404 if access is denied.
>> Here is some text from the RFC 8040, 4.6:
>>
>>    If the user is not authorized to alter the target resource, an error
>>    response containing a "403 Forbidden" status-line SHOULD be returned.
>>    A server MAY return a "404 Not Found" status-line, as described in
>>    Section 6.5.4 in [RFC7231] <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-6.5.4>.
>>
>>
>>  I do not have any suggested edits for this issue.
>>
>
> So I understand the notion of having the parent not be required, but the
> point here is that having
> asymmetry between the read and write conditions leads to unexpected
> consequences, including
> security failures.
>
>
> Andy -- if your analogy holds, then the ability to perform PUT, PATCH, or
> DELETE on a resource implies that the user must also be authorized to
> *read* ancestor nodes of that resource. Is that what is intended here? If
> so, I think text to that effect may address the concern that Eric has
> raised.
>
>
OK -- I will work on some new text that explain the pre-read steps in sec.
3.1.3.
Definitely a bug that the pre-read boxes are not properly explained.



/a
>

Andy

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Adam Roach <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:adam@nostrum.com" target=3D"_blank">adam@nostrum.com</a>&gt;</=
span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <div class=3D"m_4811801194715647845moz-cite-prefix">On 10/25/17 5:23 PM=
, Eric Rescorla
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 10:44 AM,
            Andy Bierman <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaw=
orks.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;</span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
                <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
                  <br>
                  <div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span>On Sat, Oct
                      21, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Eric Rescorla <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;<=
/span>
                      wrote:<br>
                    </span><span>
                      <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                        <br>
                        Line 648<br>
                        =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 operation for these nodes is c=
onsidered to
                        be &quot;none&quot;.=C2=A0 The edit<br>
                        =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 begins at the target resource.=
<br>
                        IMPORTANT: I believe this creates a modest
                        vulnerability to treat<br>
                        PATCH (and potentially PUT) this way because it
                        allows the attacker to<br>
                        confirm a guess for the contents of a resource
                        it could not have read<br>
                        (because the parents were unreadable). The
                        attack here is to provide a<br>
                        patch with the &quot;before&quot; being a guess for=
 parts
                        of the file and then<br>
                        look for success or failure. How hard this is
                        depends on file<br>
                        structure (characters per line), etc.<br>
                      </blockquote>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                    </span>
                    <div>The purpose of this text is to support
                      user-specific access within a more-restricted
                      resource.</div>
                    <div>As an analogy, I can do &quot;ls /home&quot; on my=
 linux
                      PC and see all the users that are setup,</div>
                    <div>but I cannot access any of the user dirs
                      (except my own).</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>I think this was raised as a RESTCONF issue.</div>
                    <div>The server can return 403 or 404 if access is
                      denied.</div>
                    <div>Here is some text from the RFC 8040, 4.6:</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <pre class=3D"m_4811801194715647845m_7166505710614659=
878gmail-m_3184789367726537118gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;m=
argin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">   If the user is not aut=
horized to alter the target resource, an error
   response containing a &quot;403 Forbidden&quot; status-line SHOULD be re=
turned.
   A server MAY return a &quot;404 Not Found&quot; status-line, as describe=
d in
   <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-6.5.4" target=3D"=
_blank">Section=C2=A06.5.4 in [RFC7231]</a>. </pre>
                    </div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>=C2=A0I do not have any suggested edits for this
                      issue.</div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>So I understand the notion of having the parent not be
              required, but the point here is that having</div>
            <div>asymmetry between the read and write conditions leads
              to unexpected consequences, including</div>
            <div>security failures.</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Andy -- if your analogy holds, then the ability to perform PUT,
    PATCH, or DELETE on a resource implies that the user must also be
    authorized to *read* ancestor nodes of that resource. Is that what
    is intended here? If so, I think text to that effect may address the
    concern that Eric has raised.<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888=
888"><br>
    <br></font></span></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>OK -- I will w=
ork on some new text that explain the pre-read steps in sec. 3.1.3.</div><d=
iv>Definitely a bug that the pre-read boxes are not properly explained.</di=
v><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x"><div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font c=
olor=3D"#888888">
    /a<br>
  </font></span></div>

</blockquote></div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Andy</div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div></div>

--001a114188aa0c3f17055c672400--


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From: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
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Subject: [Netconf] Adam Roach's No Objection on draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: (with COMMENT)
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Adam Roach has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


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The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Quick note on Table 1:

   | HEAD    | all             | <get>               | N/A             |
   | GET     | all             | <get>               | N/A             |

Shouldn't these be "<get>, <get-config>" rather than just "<get>"?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll note that there's a subtle OPTIONS-related attack here similar to what
Eric calls out regarding PUT and PATCH.

This document appears to put no access restrictions whatsoever on the use of
OPTIONS. RFC 8040, section 4.1 indicates that the answer can change based on
the "specific resource", while RFC7231, section 4.3.7 stipulates that "a
server's communication options typically depend on the resource." The risk here
is that the response to OPTIONS may vary based on the presence or absence of a
resource corresponding to the URL's path. If this is the case and if no access
control is applied to OPTIONS, then it can be used to trivially probe for the
presence or absence of values within a tree.

I believe there should be text either in section 3.2.3 or under the "Security
Considerations" section that warns implementations not to vary their OPTIONS
responses based on the existence of the underlying resource.



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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: (with COMMENT)
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--089e082f63e0e2b9eb055c67f1a1
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On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 12:14 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani <
mjethanandani@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Oct 25, 2017, at 11:29 AM, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Mahesh Jethanandani <
> mjethanandani@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Eric,
>>
>> I will take a stab at trying to respond, and I will let the authors
>> correct me if I am wrong.
>>
>> > On Oct 21, 2017, at 2:00 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for
>> > draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: No Objection
>> >
>> > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>> > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>> > introductory paragraph, however.)
>> >
>> >
>> > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/stat
>> ement/discuss-criteria.html
>> > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>> >
>> >
>> > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > COMMENT:
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Line 231
>> >      object.  One of "none", "read", "create", "delete", "update", or
>> >      "execute".
>> > Your table below does not make use of "none" but rather makes use of
>> N/A. Are
>> > they the same?
>>
>> >
>> > Line 469
>> >   The RESTCONF protocol [RFC8040] is used for network management
>> >   purposes within this document.
>> > Maybe just merge these sentences?
>>
>> >
>> > Line 559
>> >      is rejected with an "access-denied" error.
>> >
>> >   The following sequence of conceptual processing steps is executed for
>> > How does this discussion correspond to the diagram above. For instance,
>> what
>> > does pre-read data node acc tl correspond to?
>>
>> The way I read the diagram is that the left/middle side of the diagram
>> corresponds to first set of bullet points below the diagram, and relate to
>> active sessions sending <rpc> message and actions to the server, while the
>> second set of bullet points correspond to the right side of the diagram and
>> cover the access control as they relate to notifications. As an example, if
>> the user is not authorized to execute the specified operation shown on the
>> left/middle side of the diagram, they would get a "access-denied" error.
>>
>> Andy, the pre-read data acc. ctl, I thought implied the reading/caching
>> of the NACM rules that had been configured before the first
>> message/notification is issued - no?
>>
>>
>
>
> No.
>
> If there was an action called /interfaces/interface/reset-interface
> then the group must be authorized to read /interfaces and read
> /interfaces/interface
> and execute /interfaces/interface/reset-interface.
>
> The pre-read refers read access to data node ancestors of an action or
> notification.
> Do you have text change suggestions?
>
>
> How about text to the same effect?
>
> pre-read data acc. ctl refers to group read access as it relates to data
> node ancestors of an action or notification. As an example, if an action is
> defined as /interfaces/interface/reset-interface, the group must be
> authorized to read /interfaces and /interfaces/interface, and execute on
> /interfaces/interface/reset-interface.
>
>
OK -- I added new text before the diagram explaining the new boxes.


>
>
> Andy
>
>


Andy



>
> >
>> > Line 648
>> >      operation for these nodes is considered to be "none".  The edit
>> >      begins at the target resource.
>> > IMPORTANT: I believe this creates a modest vulnerability to treat
>> > PATCH (and potentially PUT) this way because it allows the attacker to
>> > confirm a guess for the contents of a resource it could not have read
>> > (because the parents were unreadable). The attack here is to provide a
>> > patch with the "before" being a guess for parts of the file and then
>> > look for success or failure. How hard this is depends on file
>> > structure (characters per line), etc.
>>
>> >
>> > Line 670
>> >   | POST    | datastore, data | <edit-config>       | create          |
>> >   | POST    | operation       | specified operation | N/A             |
>> >   | PUT     | data            | <edit-config>       | create, replace |
>> > I don't folllow why "Access operation" is N/A for, e.g. "GET". an you
>> explain?
>> >
>> > Line 673
>> >   | PUT     | datastore       | <copy-config>       | replace         |
>> >   | PATCH   | data, datastore | <edit-config>       | merge           |
>> >   | DELETE  | data            | <edit-config>       | delete          |
>> > "merge" does not appear in the list of access oeprations above.
>> >
>> > Line 1057
>> >        match any of the user's groups, proceed to the next rule-list
>> >        entry.
>> > Assuming I am reading this correctly, it is not possible to have
>> > access control entries for individuals but only only for
>> > groups. There's nothing wrong with that, but you should make it clear
>> > earlier. If I'm wrong, can you correct me and explain what I'm
>> > missing.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Mahesh Jethanandani
>> mjethanandani@gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Mahesh Jethanandani
> mjethanandani@gmail.com
>
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 12:14 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani <span dir=3D"ltr"=
>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mjethanan=
dani@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div=
 style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On =
Oct 25, 2017, at 11:29 AM, Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumawork=
s.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=
=3D"m_-5798984032326589481Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 2=
5, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Mahesh Jethanandani <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a=
>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Eric,<br>
<br>
I will take a stab at trying to respond, and I will let the authors correct=
 me if I am wrong.<br>
<br>
&gt; On Oct 21, 2017, at 2:00 PM, Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@r=
tfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-<wbr>07: No Objection<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<=
br>
&gt; email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut thi=
s<br>
&gt; introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss=
-criteria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/i=
esg/stat<wbr>ement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
&gt; for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br=
>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536=
bis/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d<w=
br>oc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536b<wbr>is/</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; ------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>=
----------<br>
&gt; COMMENT:<br>
&gt; ------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>=
----------<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Line 231<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 object.=C2=A0 One of &quot;none&quot;, &quot;read&=
quot;, &quot;create&quot;, &quot;delete&quot;, &quot;update&quot;, or<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;execute&quot;.<br>
&gt; Your table below does not make use of &quot;none&quot; but rather make=
s use of N/A. Are<br>
&gt; they the same?<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Line 469<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0The RESTCONF protocol [RFC8040] is used for network manage=
ment<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0purposes within this document.<br>
&gt; Maybe just merge these sentences?<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Line 559<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 is rejected with an &quot;access-denied&quot; erro=
r.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0The following sequence of conceptual processing steps is e=
xecuted for<br>
&gt; How does this discussion correspond to the diagram above. For instance=
, what<br>
&gt; does pre-read data node acc tl correspond to?<br>
<br>
The way I read the diagram is that the left/middle side of the diagram corr=
esponds to first set of bullet points below the diagram, and relate to acti=
ve sessions sending &lt;rpc&gt; message and actions to the server, while th=
e second set of bullet points correspond to the right side of the diagram a=
nd cover the access control as they relate to notifications. As an example,=
 if the user is not authorized to execute the specified operation shown on =
the left/middle side of the diagram, they would get a &quot;access-denied&q=
uot; error.<br>
<br>
Andy, the pre-read data acc. ctl, I thought implied the reading/caching of =
the NACM rules that had been configured before the first message/notificati=
on is issued - no?<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>No.</div=
><div><br></div><div>If there was an action called /interfaces/interface/re=
set-<wbr>interface</div><div>then the group must be authorized to read /int=
erfaces and read /interfaces/interface</div><div>and execute /interfaces/in=
terface/reset-<wbr>interface.</div><div><br></div><div>The pre-read refers =
read access to data node ancestors of an action or notification.</div><div>=
Do you have text change suggestions?</div></div></div></div></div></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div>How about text to the same effect?</div><div><br></div><=
div>pre-read data acc. ctl refers to group read access as it relates to dat=
a node ancestors of an action or notification. As an example, if an action =
is defined as /interfaces/interface/reset-<wbr>interface, the group must be=
 authorized to read /interfaces and /interfaces/interface, and execute on /=
interfaces/interface/reset-<wbr>interface.</div><div><br></div></div></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div>OK -- I added new text before the diagram explai=
ning the new boxes.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br>=
</div><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div>=
</blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><b=
r></div><div>Andy</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding=
-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><blockquote type=3D"cit=
e"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><div></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
&gt;<br>
&gt; Line 648<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 operation for these nodes is considered to be &quo=
t;none&quot;.=C2=A0 The edit<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 begins at the target resource.<br>
&gt; IMPORTANT: I believe this creates a modest vulnerability to treat<br>
&gt; PATCH (and potentially PUT) this way because it allows the attacker to=
<br>
&gt; confirm a guess for the contents of a resource it could not have read<=
br>
&gt; (because the parents were unreadable). The attack here is to provide a=
<br>
&gt; patch with the &quot;before&quot; being a guess for parts of the file =
and then<br>
&gt; look for success or failure. How hard this is depends on file<br>
&gt; structure (characters per line), etc.<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Line 670<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0| POST=C2=A0 =C2=A0 | datastore, data | &lt;edit-config&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| create=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |<br=
>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0| POST=C2=A0 =C2=A0 | operation=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
| specified operation | N/A=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
|<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0| PUT=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| data=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | &lt;edit-config&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| create, re=
place |<br>
&gt; I don&#39;t folllow why &quot;Access operation&quot; is N/A for, e.g. =
&quot;GET&quot;. an you explain?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Line 673<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0| PUT=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| datastore=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0| &lt;copy-config&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| replace=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0| PATCH=C2=A0 =C2=A0| data, datastore | &lt;edit-config&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| merge=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0|<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0| DELETE=C2=A0 | data=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 | &lt;edit-config&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| delete=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |<br>
&gt; &quot;merge&quot; does not appear in the list of access oeprations abo=
ve.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Line 1057<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 match any of the user&#39;s groups, proceed=
 to the next rule-list<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 entry.<br>
&gt; Assuming I am reading this correctly, it is not possible to have<br>
&gt; access control entries for individuals but only only for<br>
&gt; groups. There&#39;s nothing wrong with that, but you should make it cl=
ear<br>
&gt; earlier. If I&#39;m wrong, can you correct me and explain what I&#39;m=
<br>
&gt; missing.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<span class=3D"m_-5798984032326589481HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
Mahesh Jethanandani<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mjethanandani@=
gmail.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><fo=
nt color=3D"#888888">
</font></span></div></blockquote></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=
=3D"#888888"><br><div>
<div>Mahesh Jethanandani</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a></div><div><br></div><br cl=
ass=3D"m_-5798984032326589481Apple-interchange-newline">

</div>
<br></font></span></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--089e082f63e0e2b9eb055c67f1a1--


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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 17:11:55 -0700
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To: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
Cc: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>, Netconf <netconf@ietf.org>,  draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis@ietf.org, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>,  NETCONF Working Group <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: (with COMMENT)
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--94eb2c1ce13c28109d055c6805ab
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hi,

draft-07, Sec. 3.2.5:

OLD:

   If the effective access operation is "none" (i.e., default-
   operation="none") for a particular data node, then no access control
   is applied to that data node.

NEW:

   If the effective access operation is "none" (i.e., default-
   operation="none") for a particular data node, then read permissions
   are required for that data node.


Note that this is a normative change that requires server code changes.

Is this change OK?


Andy



On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:

> On 10/25/17 5:23 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 10:44 AM, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Line 648
>>>       operation for these nodes is considered to be "none".  The edit
>>>       begins at the target resource.
>>> IMPORTANT: I believe this creates a modest vulnerability to treat
>>> PATCH (and potentially PUT) this way because it allows the attacker to
>>> confirm a guess for the contents of a resource it could not have read
>>> (because the parents were unreadable). The attack here is to provide a
>>> patch with the "before" being a guess for parts of the file and then
>>> look for success or failure. How hard this is depends on file
>>> structure (characters per line), etc.
>>>
>>
>>
>> The purpose of this text is to support user-specific access within a
>> more-restricted resource.
>> As an analogy, I can do "ls /home" on my linux PC and see all the users
>> that are setup,
>> but I cannot access any of the user dirs (except my own).
>>
>> I think this was raised as a RESTCONF issue.
>> The server can return 403 or 404 if access is denied.
>> Here is some text from the RFC 8040, 4.6:
>>
>>    If the user is not authorized to alter the target resource, an error
>>    response containing a "403 Forbidden" status-line SHOULD be returned.
>>    A server MAY return a "404 Not Found" status-line, as described in
>>    Section 6.5.4 in [RFC7231] <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-6.5.4>.
>>
>>
>>  I do not have any suggested edits for this issue.
>>
>
> So I understand the notion of having the parent not be required, but the
> point here is that having
> asymmetry between the read and write conditions leads to unexpected
> consequences, including
> security failures.
>
>
> Andy -- if your analogy holds, then the ability to perform PUT, PATCH, or
> DELETE on a resource implies that the user must also be authorized to
> *read* ancestor nodes of that resource. Is that what is intended here? If
> so, I think text to that effect may address the concern that Eric has
> raised.
>
> /a
>

--94eb2c1ce13c28109d055c6805ab
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<div><br></div><div>draft-07, Sec. 3.2.5:</div><div><br=
></div><div>OLD:</div><div><br></div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0If the effectiv=
e access operation is &quot;none&quot; (i.e., default-</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0operation=3D&quot;none&quot;) for a particular data node, then no access=
 control</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0is applied to that data node.=C2=A0</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>NEW:</div><div><br></div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0If the ef=
fective access operation is &quot;none&quot; (i.e., default-</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0operation=3D&quot;none&quot;) for a particular data node, then re=
ad permissions</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0are required for that data node.=C2=
=A0</div></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Note that this is a norma=
tive change that requires server code changes.</div><div><br></div><div>Is =
this change OK?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div><br>=
</div><div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Adam Roach <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:adam@nostrum.com" target=3D"_blank">adam@nostrum.com</a>&gt;</=
span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <div class=3D"gmail-m_6487900413721903115moz-cite-prefix">On 10/25/17 5=
:23 PM, Eric Rescorla
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 10:44 AM,
            Andy Bierman <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaw=
orks.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;</span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
              <div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
                <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
                  <br>
                  <div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span>On Sat, Oct
                      21, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Eric Rescorla <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;<=
/span>
                      wrote:<br>
                    </span><span>
                      <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                        <br>
                        Line 648<br>
                        =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 operation for these nodes is c=
onsidered to
                        be &quot;none&quot;.=C2=A0 The edit<br>
                        =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 begins at the target resource.=
<br>
                        IMPORTANT: I believe this creates a modest
                        vulnerability to treat<br>
                        PATCH (and potentially PUT) this way because it
                        allows the attacker to<br>
                        confirm a guess for the contents of a resource
                        it could not have read<br>
                        (because the parents were unreadable). The
                        attack here is to provide a<br>
                        patch with the &quot;before&quot; being a guess for=
 parts
                        of the file and then<br>
                        look for success or failure. How hard this is
                        depends on file<br>
                        structure (characters per line), etc.<br>
                      </blockquote>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                    </span>
                    <div>The purpose of this text is to support
                      user-specific access within a more-restricted
                      resource.</div>
                    <div>As an analogy, I can do &quot;ls /home&quot; on my=
 linux
                      PC and see all the users that are setup,</div>
                    <div>but I cannot access any of the user dirs
                      (except my own).</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>I think this was raised as a RESTCONF issue.</div>
                    <div>The server can return 403 or 404 if access is
                      denied.</div>
                    <div>Here is some text from the RFC 8040, 4.6:</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <pre class=3D"gmail-m_6487900413721903115m_7166505710=
614659878gmail-m_3184789367726537118gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.33=
33px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">   If the user is n=
ot authorized to alter the target resource, an error
   response containing a &quot;403 Forbidden&quot; status-line SHOULD be re=
turned.
   A server MAY return a &quot;404 Not Found&quot; status-line, as describe=
d in
   <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-6.5.4" target=3D"=
_blank">Section=C2=A06.5.4 in [RFC7231]</a>. </pre>
                    </div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>=C2=A0I do not have any suggested edits for this
                      issue.</div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>So I understand the notion of having the parent not be
              required, but the point here is that having</div>
            <div>asymmetry between the read and write conditions leads
              to unexpected consequences, including</div>
            <div>security failures.</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Andy -- if your analogy holds, then the ability to perform PUT,
    PATCH, or DELETE on a resource implies that the user must also be
    authorized to *read* ancestor nodes of that resource. Is that what
    is intended here? If so, I think text to that effect may address the
    concern that Eric has raised.<span class=3D"gmail-HOEnZb"><font color=
=3D"#888888"><br>
    <br>
    /a<br>
  </font></span></div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

--94eb2c1ce13c28109d055c6805ab--


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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 17:20:47 -0700
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To: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis@ietf.org,  Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>, NETCONF Working Group <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>,  Netconf <netconf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Adam Roach's No Objection on draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: (with COMMENT)
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--f40304360142d5df25055c6824c9
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 4:24 PM, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:

> Adam Roach has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Quick note on Table 1:
>
>    | HEAD    | all             | <get>               | N/A             |
>    | GET     | all             | <get>               | N/A             |
>
> Shouldn't these be "<get>, <get-config>" rather than just "<get>"?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'll note that there's a subtle OPTIONS-related attack here similar to what
> Eric calls out regarding PUT and PATCH.
>
> This document appears to put no access restrictions whatsoever on the use
> of
> OPTIONS. RFC 8040, section 4.1 indicates that the answer can change based
> on
> the "specific resource", while RFC7231, section 4.3.7 stipulates that "a
> server's communication options typically depend on the resource." The risk
> here
> is that the response to OPTIONS may vary based on the presence or absence
> of a
> resource corresponding to the URL's path. If this is the case and if no
> access
> control is applied to OPTIONS, then it can be used to trivially probe for
> the
> presence or absence of values within a tree.
>
> I believe there should be text either in section 3.2.3 or under the
> "Security
> Considerations" section that warns implementations not to vary their
> OPTIONS
> responses based on the existence of the underlying resource.
>
>

I am updating the security considerations section

Andy

--f40304360142d5df25055c6824c9
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 4:24 PM, Adam Roach <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:adam@nostrum.com" target=3D"_blank">adam@nostrum.com</a>&gt;</=
span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Adam Roach has entered the f=
ollowing ballot position for<br>
draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-<wbr>07: No Objection<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<br>
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<br>
introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crit=
eria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/iesg/<=
wbr>statement/discuss-criteria.<wbr>html</a><br>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis/"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc=
/draft-ietf-netconf-<wbr>rfc6536bis/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>-----=
-----<br>
COMMENT:<br>
------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>-----=
-----<br>
<br>
Quick note on Table 1:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0| HEAD=C2=A0 =C2=A0 | all=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0| &lt;get&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0| N/A=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0| GET=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| all=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| &lt;get&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0| N/A=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|<br>
<br>
Shouldn&#39;t these be &quot;&lt;get&gt;, &lt;get-config&gt;&quot; rather t=
han just &quot;&lt;get&gt;&quot;?<br>
<br>
------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>-----=
-----<br>
<br>
I&#39;ll note that there&#39;s a subtle OPTIONS-related attack here similar=
 to what<br>
Eric calls out regarding PUT and PATCH.<br>
<br>
This document appears to put no access restrictions whatsoever on the use o=
f<br>
OPTIONS. RFC 8040, section 4.1 indicates that the answer can change based o=
n<br>
the &quot;specific resource&quot;, while RFC7231, section 4.3.7 stipulates =
that &quot;a<br>
server&#39;s communication options typically depend on the resource.&quot; =
The risk here<br>
is that the response to OPTIONS may vary based on the presence or absence o=
f a<br>
resource corresponding to the URL&#39;s path. If this is the case and if no=
 access<br>
control is applied to OPTIONS, then it can be used to trivially probe for t=
he<br>
presence or absence of values within a tree.<br>
<br>
I believe there should be text either in section 3.2.3 or under the &quot;S=
ecurity<br>
Considerations&quot; section that warns implementations not to vary their O=
PTIONS<br>
responses based on the existence of the underlying resource.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I am updating the secur=
ity considerations section=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div>=
=C2=A0</div></div><br></div></div>

--f40304360142d5df25055c6824c9--


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Subject: Re: [Netconf] [Gen-art] Genart telechat review of draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07
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Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> writes:
> Actually the term "leafs" is used 31 times in RFC 7950.
> The term "leaves" is used zero times.
> I think the same is true in all existing YANG-related RFCs.

When I reviewed a Yang document, I was told that "leafs" was the term
that was used in Yang documents.

Dale


From nobody Wed Oct 25 18:31:33 2017
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Subject: [Netconf] Ben Campbell's Yes on draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: (with COMMENT)
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Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: Yes

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

-1.1: The document contains lower case versions of 2119 words. Please consider
the updated boilerplate from 8174.



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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 19:35:25 -0700
Message-ID: <CABCOCHSsQzBV5MaApsZgGwHeOUMSY_o3U-8qTNN4LvaTzP62tg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis@ietf.org,  Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>, NETCONF Working Group <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>,  Netconf <netconf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Ben Campbell's Yes on draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: (with COMMENT)
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--94eb2c0c884a5ce86d055c6a06a3
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On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 6:31 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:

> Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: Yes
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> -1.1: The document contains lower case versions of 2119 words. Please
> consider
> the updated boilerplate from 8174.
>
>
>
OK

Andy

--94eb2c0c884a5ce86d055c6a06a3
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 6:31 PM, Ben Campbell <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum.com" target=3D"_blank">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt;</=
span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Ben Campbell has entered the=
 following ballot position for<br>
draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-<wbr>07: Yes<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<br>
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<br>
introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crit=
eria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/iesg/<=
wbr>statement/discuss-criteria.<wbr>html</a><br>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis/"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc=
/draft-ietf-netconf-<wbr>rfc6536bis/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>-----=
-----<br>
COMMENT:<br>
------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>-----=
-----<br>
<br>
-1.1: The document contains lower case versions of 2119 words. Please consi=
der<br>
the updated boilerplate from 8174.<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">OK=C2=A0</div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Andy</div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div></div>

--94eb2c0c884a5ce86d055c6a06a3--


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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 20:13:01 -0700
Message-ID: <CABCOCHQir7WeMD0YF9xOYR_+_68oeGYpdK-b+YXqyc8KHZ8jdg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis@ietf.org,  Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>, NETCONF Working Group <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>,  Netconf <netconf@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/lwTmRLOp5_B0VwIXX3CEweybJFQ>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] Ben Campbell's Yes on draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: (with COMMENT)
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--94eb2c1cddead0c93e055c6a8c65
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hi,

I have posted an update on github that addresses all changes except
"leaves".

https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis/blob/master/draft-pre-08.txt


Andy


On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 7:35 PM, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 6:31 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
>
>> Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for
>> draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: Yes
>>
>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>
>>
>> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>
>>
>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis/
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> COMMENT:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> -1.1: The document contains lower case versions of 2119 words. Please
>> consider
>> the updated boilerplate from 8174.
>>
>>
>>
> OK
>
> Andy
>
>

--94eb2c1cddead0c93e055c6a8c65
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<div><br></div><div>I have posted an update on github t=
hat addresses all changes except &quot;leaves&quot;.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv><a href=3D"https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis/blob/master/draft-pr=
e-08.txt">https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc6536bis/blob/master/draft-pre-08=
.txt</a><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div><br></d=
iv></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, =
Oct 25, 2017 at 7:35 PM, Andy Bierman <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:andy@yumaworks.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 6:31 P=
M, Ben Campbell <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for<br=
>
draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-<wbr>07: Yes<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<br>
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<br>
introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crit=
eria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/iesg/s=
tat<wbr>ement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis/"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d<wbr>oc=
/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536b<wbr>is/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>-----=
-----<br>
COMMENT:<br>
------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>-----=
-----<br>
<br>
-1.1: The document contains lower case versions of 2119 words. Please consi=
der<br>
the updated boilerplate from 8174.<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">OK=C2=A0</div><span=
 class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Andy</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></d=
iv></font></span></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--94eb2c1cddead0c93e055c6a8c65--


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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:08:23 -0700
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To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>, Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>,  Netconf <netconf@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis@ietf.org,  The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, NETCONF Working Group <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: (with COMMENT)
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This seems clear to me. I'm not taking a position on whether it's advisable.

-Ekr


On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 5:11 PM, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> draft-07, Sec. 3.2.5:
>
> OLD:
>
>    If the effective access operation is "none" (i.e., default-
>    operation="none") for a particular data node, then no access control
>    is applied to that data node.
>
> NEW:
>
>    If the effective access operation is "none" (i.e., default-
>    operation="none") for a particular data node, then read permissions
>    are required for that data node.
>
>
> Note that this is a normative change that requires server code changes.
>
> Is this change OK?
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:
>
>> On 10/25/17 5:23 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 10:44 AM, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Line 648
>>>>       operation for these nodes is considered to be "none".  The edit
>>>>       begins at the target resource.
>>>> IMPORTANT: I believe this creates a modest vulnerability to treat
>>>> PATCH (and potentially PUT) this way because it allows the attacker to
>>>> confirm a guess for the contents of a resource it could not have read
>>>> (because the parents were unreadable). The attack here is to provide a
>>>> patch with the "before" being a guess for parts of the file and then
>>>> look for success or failure. How hard this is depends on file
>>>> structure (characters per line), etc.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The purpose of this text is to support user-specific access within a
>>> more-restricted resource.
>>> As an analogy, I can do "ls /home" on my linux PC and see all the users
>>> that are setup,
>>> but I cannot access any of the user dirs (except my own).
>>>
>>> I think this was raised as a RESTCONF issue.
>>> The server can return 403 or 404 if access is denied.
>>> Here is some text from the RFC 8040, 4.6:
>>>
>>>    If the user is not authorized to alter the target resource, an error
>>>    response containing a "403 Forbidden" status-line SHOULD be returned.
>>>    A server MAY return a "404 Not Found" status-line, as described in
>>>    Section 6.5.4 in [RFC7231] <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-6.5.4>.
>>>
>>>
>>>  I do not have any suggested edits for this issue.
>>>
>>
>> So I understand the notion of having the parent not be required, but the
>> point here is that having
>> asymmetry between the read and write conditions leads to unexpected
>> consequences, including
>> security failures.
>>
>>
>> Andy -- if your analogy holds, then the ability to perform PUT, PATCH, or
>> DELETE on a resource implies that the user must also be authorized to
>> *read* ancestor nodes of that resource. Is that what is intended here? If
>> so, I think text to that effect may address the concern that Eric has
>> raised.
>>
>> /a
>>
>
>

--94eb2c0afb1429f6d4055c6b5598
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<div dir=3D"ltr">This seems clear to me. I&#39;m not taking a position on w=
hether it&#39;s advisable.<div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div><br></div></di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 25,=
 2017 at 5:11 PM, Andy Bierman <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy=
@yumaworks.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<=
br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<div><br></div><div>d=
raft-07, Sec. 3.2.5:</div><div><br></div><div>OLD:</div><div><br></div><div=
><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0If the effective access operation is &quot;none&quot; (i=
.e., default-</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0operation=3D&quot;none&quot;) for a pa=
rticular data node, then no access control</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0is applie=
d to that data node.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>NEW:</div><div><br></di=
v><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0If the effective access operation is &quot;none&qu=
ot; (i.e., default-</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0operation=3D&quot;none&quot;) fo=
r a particular data node, then read permissions</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0are =
required for that data node.=C2=A0</div></div><div><br></div><div><br></div=
><div>Note that this is a normative change that requires server code change=
s.</div><div><br></div><div>Is this change OK?</div><span class=3D"HOEnZb">=
<font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div><=
br></div><div><br></div></font></span><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><span class=3D"">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Adam=
 Roach <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adam@nostrum.com" target=3D"=
_blank">adam@nostrum.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></span><div><div class=3D=
"h5"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <div class=3D"m_-712530422937467023gmail-m_6487900413721903115moz-cite-=
prefix">On 10/25/17 5:23 PM, Eric Rescorla
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 10:44 AM,
            Andy Bierman <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaw=
orks.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;</span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
              <div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
                <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
                  <br>
                  <div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span>On Sat, Oct
                      21, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Eric Rescorla <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;<=
/span>
                      wrote:<br>
                    </span><span>
                      <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                        <br>
                        Line 648<br>
                        =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 operation for these nodes is c=
onsidered to
                        be &quot;none&quot;.=C2=A0 The edit<br>
                        =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 begins at the target resource.=
<br>
                        IMPORTANT: I believe this creates a modest
                        vulnerability to treat<br>
                        PATCH (and potentially PUT) this way because it
                        allows the attacker to<br>
                        confirm a guess for the contents of a resource
                        it could not have read<br>
                        (because the parents were unreadable). The
                        attack here is to provide a<br>
                        patch with the &quot;before&quot; being a guess for=
 parts
                        of the file and then<br>
                        look for success or failure. How hard this is
                        depends on file<br>
                        structure (characters per line), etc.<br>
                      </blockquote>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                    </span>
                    <div>The purpose of this text is to support
                      user-specific access within a more-restricted
                      resource.</div>
                    <div>As an analogy, I can do &quot;ls /home&quot; on my=
 linux
                      PC and see all the users that are setup,</div>
                    <div>but I cannot access any of the user dirs
                      (except my own).</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>I think this was raised as a RESTCONF issue.</div>
                    <div>The server can return 403 or 404 if access is
                      denied.</div>
                    <div>Here is some text from the RFC 8040, 4.6:</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <pre class=3D"m_-712530422937467023gmail-m_6487900413=
721903115m_7166505710614659878gmail-m_3184789367726537118gmail-newpage" sty=
le=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)=
">   If the user is not authorized to alter the target resource, an error
   response containing a &quot;403 Forbidden&quot; status-line SHOULD be re=
turned.
   A server MAY return a &quot;404 Not Found&quot; status-line, as describe=
d in
   <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-6.5.4" target=3D"=
_blank">Section=C2=A06.5.4 in [RFC7231]</a>. </pre>
                    </div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>=C2=A0I do not have any suggested edits for this
                      issue.</div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>So I understand the notion of having the parent not be
              required, but the point here is that having</div>
            <div>asymmetry between the read and write conditions leads
              to unexpected consequences, including</div>
            <div>security failures.</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Andy -- if your analogy holds, then the ability to perform PUT,
    PATCH, or DELETE on a resource implies that the user must also be
    authorized to *read* ancestor nodes of that resource. Is that what
    is intended here? If so, I think text to that effect may address the
    concern that Eric has raised.<span class=3D"m_-712530422937467023gmail-=
HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
    <br>
    /a<br>
  </font></span></div>

</blockquote></div></div></div><br></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--94eb2c0afb1429f6d4055c6b5598--


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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] review of draft-ietf-netconf-ssh-client-server-03 and draft-ietf-netconf-tls-client-server-03
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On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 10:25:09PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:
> Hi Juergen,
> 
> I just noticed this comment went unanswered before.  I don't feel
> strongly about this, but 1) I would call it "ietf-ssh-groupings",

Because you are sure you will never put typedefs or identity
definition there?

> 2) it will have a large impact on the structure of the draft (what
> would the ToC be?), and

The ToC falls out of the content.

> 3) it definitely will break downstream modules (as their imports
> will fail as the old names disappear).

Nothing got published so far. I think the number of IDs affected are
close to the number of IDs dealing with NC configuration, all in the
hand of one editor.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 09:04:46 -0700
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To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Cc: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>, Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>,  Netconf <netconf@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis@ietf.org,  The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, NETCONF Working Group <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: (with COMMENT)
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On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 9:08 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

> This seems clear to me. I'm not taking a position on whether it's
> advisable.
>
>
OK -- I would rather not make this change unless the IESG says we need to
do it.


> -Ekr
>
>

Andy


>
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 5:11 PM, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> draft-07, Sec. 3.2.5:
>>
>> OLD:
>>
>>    If the effective access operation is "none" (i.e., default-
>>    operation="none") for a particular data node, then no access control
>>    is applied to that data node.
>>
>> NEW:
>>
>>    If the effective access operation is "none" (i.e., default-
>>    operation="none") for a particular data node, then read permissions
>>    are required for that data node.
>>
>>
>> Note that this is a normative change that requires server code changes.
>>
>> Is this change OK?
>>
>>
>> Andy
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/25/17 5:23 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 10:44 AM, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Line 648
>>>>>       operation for these nodes is considered to be "none".  The edit
>>>>>       begins at the target resource.
>>>>> IMPORTANT: I believe this creates a modest vulnerability to treat
>>>>> PATCH (and potentially PUT) this way because it allows the attacker to
>>>>> confirm a guess for the contents of a resource it could not have read
>>>>> (because the parents were unreadable). The attack here is to provide a
>>>>> patch with the "before" being a guess for parts of the file and then
>>>>> look for success or failure. How hard this is depends on file
>>>>> structure (characters per line), etc.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The purpose of this text is to support user-specific access within a
>>>> more-restricted resource.
>>>> As an analogy, I can do "ls /home" on my linux PC and see all the users
>>>> that are setup,
>>>> but I cannot access any of the user dirs (except my own).
>>>>
>>>> I think this was raised as a RESTCONF issue.
>>>> The server can return 403 or 404 if access is denied.
>>>> Here is some text from the RFC 8040, 4.6:
>>>>
>>>>    If the user is not authorized to alter the target resource, an error
>>>>    response containing a "403 Forbidden" status-line SHOULD be returned.
>>>>    A server MAY return a "404 Not Found" status-line, as described in
>>>>    Section 6.5.4 in [RFC7231] <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-6.5.4>.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  I do not have any suggested edits for this issue.
>>>>
>>>
>>> So I understand the notion of having the parent not be required, but the
>>> point here is that having
>>> asymmetry between the read and write conditions leads to unexpected
>>> consequences, including
>>> security failures.
>>>
>>>
>>> Andy -- if your analogy holds, then the ability to perform PUT, PATCH,
>>> or DELETE on a resource implies that the user must also be authorized to
>>> *read* ancestor nodes of that resource. Is that what is intended here? If
>>> so, I think text to that effect may address the concern that Eric has
>>> raised.
>>>
>>> /a
>>>
>>
>>
>

--001a114188aae003b1055c7554ed
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 9:08 PM, Eric Rescorla <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;</span>=
 wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor=
der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">This seems clear=
 to me. I&#39;m not taking a position on whether it&#39;s advisable.<div><b=
r></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>OK -- I would rather not mak=
e this change unless the IESG says we need to do it.</div><div>=C2=A0</div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div>-Ekr</div><=
div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Andy</d=
iv><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></=
div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed,=
 Oct 25, 2017 at 5:11 PM, Andy Bierman <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:andy@yumaworks.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;</span>=
 wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor=
der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<div><br></di=
v><div>draft-07, Sec. 3.2.5:</div><div><br></div><div>OLD:</div><div><br></=
div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0If the effective access operation is &quot;none&=
quot; (i.e., default-</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0operation=3D&quot;none&quot;) =
for a particular data node, then no access control</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0i=
s applied to that data node.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>NEW:</div><div>=
<br></div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0If the effective access operation is &quot=
;none&quot; (i.e., default-</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0operation=3D&quot;none&q=
uot;) for a particular data node, then read permissions</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0are required for that data node.=C2=A0</div></div><div><br></div><div=
><br></div><div>Note that this is a normative change that requires server c=
ode changes.</div><div><br></div><div>Is this change OK?</div><span class=
=3D"m_-8448139983412062662HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><d=
iv><br></div><div>Andy</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></font></span><di=
v class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span>On Wed, Oct 25=
, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Adam Roach <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adam@=
nostrum.com" target=3D"_blank">adam@nostrum.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></=
span><div><div class=3D"m_-8448139983412062662h5"><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,20=
4,204);padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <div class=3D"m_-8448139983412062662m_-712530422937467023gmail-m_648790=
0413721903115moz-cite-prefix">On 10/25/17 5:23 PM, Eric Rescorla
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 10:44 AM,
            Andy Bierman <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaw=
orks.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;</span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
              <div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
                <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
                  <br>
                  <div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span>On Sat, Oct
                      21, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Eric Rescorla <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;<=
/span>
                      wrote:<br>
                    </span><span>
                      <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                        <br>
                        Line 648<br>
                        =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 operation for these nodes is c=
onsidered to
                        be &quot;none&quot;.=C2=A0 The edit<br>
                        =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 begins at the target resource.=
<br>
                        IMPORTANT: I believe this creates a modest
                        vulnerability to treat<br>
                        PATCH (and potentially PUT) this way because it
                        allows the attacker to<br>
                        confirm a guess for the contents of a resource
                        it could not have read<br>
                        (because the parents were unreadable). The
                        attack here is to provide a<br>
                        patch with the &quot;before&quot; being a guess for=
 parts
                        of the file and then<br>
                        look for success or failure. How hard this is
                        depends on file<br>
                        structure (characters per line), etc.<br>
                      </blockquote>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                    </span>
                    <div>The purpose of this text is to support
                      user-specific access within a more-restricted
                      resource.</div>
                    <div>As an analogy, I can do &quot;ls /home&quot; on my=
 linux
                      PC and see all the users that are setup,</div>
                    <div>but I cannot access any of the user dirs
                      (except my own).</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>I think this was raised as a RESTCONF issue.</div>
                    <div>The server can return 403 or 404 if access is
                      denied.</div>
                    <div>Here is some text from the RFC 8040, 4.6:</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <pre class=3D"m_-8448139983412062662m_-71253042293746=
7023gmail-m_6487900413721903115m_7166505710614659878gmail-m_318478936772653=
7118gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-botto=
m:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">   If the user is not authorized to alter the targe=
t resource, an error
   response containing a &quot;403 Forbidden&quot; status-line SHOULD be re=
turned.
   A server MAY return a &quot;404 Not Found&quot; status-line, as describe=
d in
   <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-6.5.4" target=3D"=
_blank">Section=C2=A06.5.4 in [RFC7231]</a>. </pre>
                    </div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>=C2=A0I do not have any suggested edits for this
                      issue.</div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>So I understand the notion of having the parent not be
              required, but the point here is that having</div>
            <div>asymmetry between the read and write conditions leads
              to unexpected consequences, including</div>
            <div>security failures.</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Andy -- if your analogy holds, then the ability to perform PUT,
    PATCH, or DELETE on a resource implies that the user must also be
    authorized to *read* ancestor nodes of that resource. Is that what
    is intended here? If so, I think text to that effect may address the
    concern that Eric has raised.<span class=3D"m_-8448139983412062662m_-71=
2530422937467023gmail-HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
    <br>
    /a<br>
  </font></span></div>

</blockquote></div></div></div><br></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a114188aae003b1055c7554ed--


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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/BZvgXMzZZq1eMUxIsyJ11vYi4ng>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] YANG Patch 'remove' operation
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Martin Bjorklund writes:
>Phil Shafer <phil@juniper.net> wrote:
>> Robert Wilton writes:
>> >When I looked at this again, it looks like "replace" also shouldn't fail 
>> >on non existence.
>> 
>> "replace" was meant to allow non-existance.  It means "replace the
>> item completely", but should effectively ignored if the item does
>> not already exist.
>
>No, this is not how it is specified.  Both RFC 6020 and 7950 have this:
>
>      If the operation is "merge" or "replace", the node is created if
>      it does not exist.

This is what I meant: the "replace" opeation is ignored and normal
behavior proceeds.

Thanks,
 Phil


From nobody Thu Oct 26 09:18:39 2017
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 09:17:39 -0700
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To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>, Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>,  Netconf <netconf@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis@ietf.org,  The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, NETCONF Working Group <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: (with COMMENT)
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--001a1142d0d43c05dd055c7585ae
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

My position is that the document needs to carefully describe the security
properties of the system. Either you should remove this property (which
seems a bit unfortunate) or explain the implications carefully. Which one
you do seems up to the WG.

-Ekr


On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 9:04 AM, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 9:08 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>
>> This seems clear to me. I'm not taking a position on whether it's
>> advisable.
>>
>>
> OK -- I would rather not make this change unless the IESG says we need to
> do it.
>
>
>> -Ekr
>>
>>
>
> Andy
>
>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 5:11 PM, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> draft-07, Sec. 3.2.5:
>>>
>>> OLD:
>>>
>>>    If the effective access operation is "none" (i.e., default-
>>>    operation="none") for a particular data node, then no access control
>>>    is applied to that data node.
>>>
>>> NEW:
>>>
>>>    If the effective access operation is "none" (i.e., default-
>>>    operation="none") for a particular data node, then read permissions
>>>    are required for that data node.
>>>
>>>
>>> Note that this is a normative change that requires server code changes.
>>>
>>> Is this change OK?
>>>
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/25/17 5:23 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 10:44 AM, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Line 648
>>>>>>       operation for these nodes is considered to be "none".  The edit
>>>>>>       begins at the target resource.
>>>>>> IMPORTANT: I believe this creates a modest vulnerability to treat
>>>>>> PATCH (and potentially PUT) this way because it allows the attacker to
>>>>>> confirm a guess for the contents of a resource it could not have read
>>>>>> (because the parents were unreadable). The attack here is to provide a
>>>>>> patch with the "before" being a guess for parts of the file and then
>>>>>> look for success or failure. How hard this is depends on file
>>>>>> structure (characters per line), etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The purpose of this text is to support user-specific access within a
>>>>> more-restricted resource.
>>>>> As an analogy, I can do "ls /home" on my linux PC and see all the
>>>>> users that are setup,
>>>>> but I cannot access any of the user dirs (except my own).
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this was raised as a RESTCONF issue.
>>>>> The server can return 403 or 404 if access is denied.
>>>>> Here is some text from the RFC 8040, 4.6:
>>>>>
>>>>>    If the user is not authorized to alter the target resource, an error
>>>>>    response containing a "403 Forbidden" status-line SHOULD be returned.
>>>>>    A server MAY return a "404 Not Found" status-line, as described in
>>>>>    Section 6.5.4 in [RFC7231] <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-6.5.4>.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  I do not have any suggested edits for this issue.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So I understand the notion of having the parent not be required, but
>>>> the point here is that having
>>>> asymmetry between the read and write conditions leads to unexpected
>>>> consequences, including
>>>> security failures.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Andy -- if your analogy holds, then the ability to perform PUT, PATCH,
>>>> or DELETE on a resource implies that the user must also be authorized to
>>>> *read* ancestor nodes of that resource. Is that what is intended here? If
>>>> so, I think text to that effect may address the concern that Eric has
>>>> raised.
>>>>
>>>> /a
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

--001a1142d0d43c05dd055c7585ae
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">My position is that the document needs to carefully descri=
be the security properties of the system. Either you should remove this pro=
perty (which seems a bit unfortunate) or explain the implications carefully=
. Which one you do seems up to the WG.<div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div><b=
r></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On =
Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 9:04 AM, Andy Bierman <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;</s=
pan> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span class=3D"">On Wed, =
Oct 25, 2017 at 9:08 PM, Eric Rescorla <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">This seems clear to me. I&#3=
9;m not taking a position on whether it&#39;s advisable.<div><br></div></di=
v></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>OK -- I would rather not make thi=
s change unless the IESG says we need to do it.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div>-Ekr</div><div><=
br></div></div></blockquote><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br></div><div><br>=
</div><div>Andy</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 5:11 PM, Andy Bierman <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.=
com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr=
">Hi,<div><br></div><div>draft-07, Sec. 3.2.5:</div><div><br></div><div>OLD=
:</div><div><br></div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0If the effective access operat=
ion is &quot;none&quot; (i.e., default-</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0operation=3D=
&quot;none&quot;) for a particular data node, then no access control</div><=
div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0is applied to that data node.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>NEW:</div><div><br></div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0If the effective access =
operation is &quot;none&quot; (i.e., default-</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0operat=
ion=3D&quot;none&quot;) for a particular data node, then read permissions</=
div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0are required for that data node.=C2=A0</div></div><di=
v><br></div><div><br></div><div>Note that this is a normative change that r=
equires server code changes.</div><div><br></div><div>Is this change OK?</d=
iv><span class=3D"m_-5108528074992696931m_-8448139983412062662HOEnZb"><font=
 color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div><br></=
div><div><br></div></font></span><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><span>On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Adam Roach <span di=
r=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adam@nostrum.com" target=3D"_blank">adam@no=
strum.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></span><div><div class=3D"m_-51085280749=
92696931m_-8448139983412062662h5"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <div class=3D"m_-5108528074992696931m_-8448139983412062662m_-7125304229=
37467023gmail-m_6487900413721903115moz-cite-prefix">On 10/25/17 5:23 PM, Er=
ic Rescorla
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 10:44 AM,
            Andy Bierman <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaw=
orks.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;</span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
              <div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
                <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
                  <br>
                  <div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span>On Sat, Oct
                      21, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Eric Rescorla <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;<=
/span>
                      wrote:<br>
                    </span><span>
                      <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                        <br>
                        Line 648<br>
                        =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 operation for these nodes is c=
onsidered to
                        be &quot;none&quot;.=C2=A0 The edit<br>
                        =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 begins at the target resource.=
<br>
                        IMPORTANT: I believe this creates a modest
                        vulnerability to treat<br>
                        PATCH (and potentially PUT) this way because it
                        allows the attacker to<br>
                        confirm a guess for the contents of a resource
                        it could not have read<br>
                        (because the parents were unreadable). The
                        attack here is to provide a<br>
                        patch with the &quot;before&quot; being a guess for=
 parts
                        of the file and then<br>
                        look for success or failure. How hard this is
                        depends on file<br>
                        structure (characters per line), etc.<br>
                      </blockquote>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                    </span>
                    <div>The purpose of this text is to support
                      user-specific access within a more-restricted
                      resource.</div>
                    <div>As an analogy, I can do &quot;ls /home&quot; on my=
 linux
                      PC and see all the users that are setup,</div>
                    <div>but I cannot access any of the user dirs
                      (except my own).</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>I think this was raised as a RESTCONF issue.</div>
                    <div>The server can return 403 or 404 if access is
                      denied.</div>
                    <div>Here is some text from the RFC 8040, 4.6:</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <pre class=3D"m_-5108528074992696931m_-84481399834120=
62662m_-712530422937467023gmail-m_6487900413721903115m_7166505710614659878g=
mail-m_3184789367726537118gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margi=
n-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">   If the user is not authori=
zed to alter the target resource, an error
   response containing a &quot;403 Forbidden&quot; status-line SHOULD be re=
turned.
   A server MAY return a &quot;404 Not Found&quot; status-line, as describe=
d in
   <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-6.5.4" target=3D"=
_blank">Section=C2=A06.5.4 in [RFC7231]</a>. </pre>
                    </div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>=C2=A0I do not have any suggested edits for this
                      issue.</div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>So I understand the notion of having the parent not be
              required, but the point here is that having</div>
            <div>asymmetry between the read and write conditions leads
              to unexpected consequences, including</div>
            <div>security failures.</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Andy -- if your analogy holds, then the ability to perform PUT,
    PATCH, or DELETE on a resource implies that the user must also be
    authorized to *read* ancestor nodes of that resource. Is that what
    is intended here? If so, I think text to that effect may address the
    concern that Eric has raised.<span class=3D"m_-5108528074992696931m_-84=
48139983412062662m_-712530422937467023gmail-HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"=
><br>
    <br>
    /a<br>
  </font></span></div>

</blockquote></div></div></div><br></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a1142d0d43c05dd055c7585ae--


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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2017 10:07:25 -0700
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To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Cc: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>, Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>,  Netconf <netconf@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis@ietf.org,  The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, NETCONF Working Group <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-07: (with COMMENT)
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--94eb2c1a17c4d79fc9055c763406
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 9:17 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

> My position is that the document needs to carefully describe the security
> properties of the system. Either you should remove this property (which
> seems a bit unfortunate) or explain the implications carefully. Which one
> you do seems up to the WG.
>
>

We can leave the change in.
It is more secure.


-Ekr



Andy


On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 9:04 AM, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 9:08 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>
>> This seems clear to me. I'm not taking a position on whether it's
>> advisable.
>>
>>
> OK -- I would rather not make this change unless the IESG says we need to
> do it.
>
>
>> -Ekr
>>
>>
>
> Andy
>
>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 5:11 PM, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> draft-07, Sec. 3.2.5:
>>>
>>> OLD:
>>>
>>>    If the effective access operation is "none" (i.e., default-
>>>    operation="none") for a particular data node, then no access control
>>>    is applied to that data node.
>>>
>>> NEW:
>>>
>>>    If the effective access operation is "none" (i.e., default-
>>>    operation="none") for a particular data node, then read permissions
>>>    are required for that data node.
>>>
>>>
>>> Note that this is a normative change that requires server code changes.
>>>
>>> Is this change OK?
>>>
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/25/17 5:23 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 10:44 AM, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Line 648
>>>>>>       operation for these nodes is considered to be "none".  The edit
>>>>>>       begins at the target resource.
>>>>>> IMPORTANT: I believe this creates a modest vulnerability to treat
>>>>>> PATCH (and potentially PUT) this way because it allows the attacker to
>>>>>> confirm a guess for the contents of a resource it could not have read
>>>>>> (because the parents were unreadable). The attack here is to provide a
>>>>>> patch with the "before" being a guess for parts of the file and then
>>>>>> look for success or failure. How hard this is depends on file
>>>>>> structure (characters per line), etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The purpose of this text is to support user-specific access within a
>>>>> more-restricted resource.
>>>>> As an analogy, I can do "ls /home" on my linux PC and see all the
>>>>> users that are setup,
>>>>> but I cannot access any of the user dirs (except my own).
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this was raised as a RESTCONF issue.
>>>>> The server can return 403 or 404 if access is denied.
>>>>> Here is some text from the RFC 8040, 4.6:
>>>>>
>>>>>    If the user is not authorized to alter the target resource, an error
>>>>>    response containing a "403 Forbidden" status-line SHOULD be returned.
>>>>>    A server MAY return a "404 Not Found" status-line, as described in
>>>>>    Section 6.5.4 in [RFC7231] <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-6.5.4>.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  I do not have any suggested edits for this issue.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So I understand the notion of having the parent not be required, but
>>>> the point here is that having
>>>> asymmetry between the read and write conditions leads to unexpected
>>>> consequences, including
>>>> security failures.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Andy -- if your analogy holds, then the ability to perform PUT, PATCH,
>>>> or DELETE on a resource implies that the user must also be authorized to
>>>> *read* ancestor nodes of that resource. Is that what is intended here? If
>>>> so, I think text to that effect may address the concern that Eric has
>>>> raised.
>>>>
>>>> /a
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

--94eb2c1a17c4d79fc9055c763406
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 9:17 AM, Eric Rescorla <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;</span>=
 wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor=
der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">My position is t=
hat the document needs to carefully describe the security properties of the=
 system. Either you should remove this property (which seems a bit unfortun=
ate) or explain the implications carefully. Which one you do seems up to th=
e WG.<div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>W=
e can leave the change in.</div><div>It is more secure.</div><div><br></div=
><div>=C2=A0</div><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div>-Ekr</div><div><br>=
</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"=
><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Andy</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu,=
 Oct 26, 2017 at 9:04 AM, Andy Bierman <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:andy@yumaworks.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;</span>=
 wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor=
der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span>On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 =
at 9:08 PM, Eric Rescorla <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.=
com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">This seems clear to me. I&#39;m not takin=
g a position on whether it&#39;s advisable.<div><br></div></div></blockquot=
e><div><br></div></span><div>OK -- I would rather not make this change unle=
ss the IESG says we need to do it.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div>-Ekr</div><div><br></div></d=
iv></blockquote><div><div class=3D"m_-3958122966503696864h5"><div><br></div=
><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 5:11 PM, Andy Bierman <span di=
r=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@=
yumaworks.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<div><br></div><div>draft-07, Sec. 3.2.5:</div><div><br></di=
v><div>OLD:</div><div><br></div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0If the effective acc=
ess operation is &quot;none&quot; (i.e., default-</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0op=
eration=3D&quot;none&quot;) for a particular data node, then no access cont=
rol</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0is applied to that data node.=C2=A0</div><div><b=
r></div><div>NEW:</div><div><br></div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0If the effecti=
ve access operation is &quot;none&quot; (i.e., default-</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0operation=3D&quot;none&quot;) for a particular data node, then read p=
ermissions</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0are required for that data node.=C2=A0</d=
iv></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Note that this is a normative c=
hange that requires server code changes.</div><div><br></div><div>Is this c=
hange OK?</div><span class=3D"m_-3958122966503696864m_-5108528074992696931m=
_-8448139983412062662HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div><b=
r></div><div>Andy</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></font></span><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span>On Wed, Oct 25, 201=
7 at 3:50 PM, Adam Roach <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adam@nostr=
um.com" target=3D"_blank">adam@nostrum.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></span>=
<div><div class=3D"m_-3958122966503696864m_-5108528074992696931m_-844813998=
3412062662h5"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <div class=3D"m_-3958122966503696864m_-5108528074992696931m_-8448139983=
412062662m_-712530422937467023gmail-m_6487900413721903115moz-cite-prefix">O=
n 10/25/17 5:23 PM, Eric Rescorla
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
          <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 10:44 AM,
            Andy Bierman <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaw=
orks.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;</span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
              <div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
                <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
                  <br>
                  <div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span>On Sat, Oct
                      21, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Eric Rescorla <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;<=
/span>
                      wrote:<br>
                    </span><span>
                      <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                        <br>
                        Line 648<br>
                        =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 operation for these nodes is c=
onsidered to
                        be &quot;none&quot;.=C2=A0 The edit<br>
                        =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 begins at the target resource.=
<br>
                        IMPORTANT: I believe this creates a modest
                        vulnerability to treat<br>
                        PATCH (and potentially PUT) this way because it
                        allows the attacker to<br>
                        confirm a guess for the contents of a resource
                        it could not have read<br>
                        (because the parents were unreadable). The
                        attack here is to provide a<br>
                        patch with the &quot;before&quot; being a guess for=
 parts
                        of the file and then<br>
                        look for success or failure. How hard this is
                        depends on file<br>
                        structure (characters per line), etc.<br>
                      </blockquote>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                    </span>
                    <div>The purpose of this text is to support
                      user-specific access within a more-restricted
                      resource.</div>
                    <div>As an analogy, I can do &quot;ls /home&quot; on my=
 linux
                      PC and see all the users that are setup,</div>
                    <div>but I cannot access any of the user dirs
                      (except my own).</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>I think this was raised as a RESTCONF issue.</div>
                    <div>The server can return 403 or 404 if access is
                      denied.</div>
                    <div>Here is some text from the RFC 8040, 4.6:</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <pre class=3D"m_-3958122966503696864m_-51085280749926=
96931m_-8448139983412062662m_-712530422937467023gmail-m_6487900413721903115=
m_7166505710614659878gmail-m_3184789367726537118gmail-newpage" style=3D"fon=
t-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">   If t=
he user is not authorized to alter the target resource, an error
   response containing a &quot;403 Forbidden&quot; status-line SHOULD be re=
turned.
   A server MAY return a &quot;404 Not Found&quot; status-line, as describe=
d in
   <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-6.5.4" target=3D"=
_blank">Section=C2=A06.5.4 in [RFC7231]</a>. </pre>
                    </div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>=C2=A0I do not have any suggested edits for this
                      issue.</div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>So I understand the notion of having the parent not be
              required, but the point here is that having</div>
            <div>asymmetry between the read and write conditions leads
              to unexpected consequences, including</div>
            <div>security failures.</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Andy -- if your analogy holds, then the ability to perform PUT,
    PATCH, or DELETE on a resource implies that the user must also be
    authorized to *read* ancestor nodes of that resource. Is that what
    is intended here? If so, I think text to that effect may address the
    concern that Eric has raised.<span class=3D"m_-3958122966503696864m_-51=
08528074992696931m_-8448139983412062662m_-712530422937467023gmail-HOEnZb"><=
font color=3D"#888888"><br>
    <br>
    /a<br>
  </font></span></div>

</blockquote></div></div></div><br></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div><br></div></div>

--94eb2c1a17c4d79fc9055c763406--


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Subject: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-08.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Network Configuration Access Control Module
        Authors         : Andy Bierman
                          Martin Bjorklund
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-08.txt
	Pages           : 56
	Date            : 2017-10-26

Abstract:
   The standardization of network configuration interfaces for use with
   the Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF) or RESTCONF protocol
   requires a structured and secure operating environment that promotes
   human usability and multi-vendor interoperability.  There is a need
   for standard mechanisms to restrict NETCONF or RESTCONF protocol
   access for particular users to a pre-configured subset of all
   available NETCONF or RESTCONF protocol operations and content.  This
   document defines such an access control model.

   This document obsoletes RFC 6536.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-08
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-08

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis-08


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

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ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, "Tim Jenkins (timjenki)" <timjenki@cisco.com>
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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
CC: "Robert Wilton -X (rwilton - ENSOFT LIMITED at Cisco)" <rwilton@cisco.com>,  "netconf-chairs@ietf.org" <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>, "alexander.clemm@huawei.com" <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, "alberto.gonzalezprieto@yahoo.com" <alberto.gonzalezprieto@yahoo.com>, "Einar Nilsen-Nygaard (einarnn)" <einarnn@cisco.com>, "Ambika Prasad Tripathy Tripathy (ambtripa)" <ambtripa@cisco.com>, "zhengguangying@huawei.com" <zhengguangying@huawei.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 19:09:29 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/bSZAfvyD-ki-iJ1OV4K7XtpHTtE>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications, anything else from the two week look?
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Custom Subscription to Event Streams
        Authors         : Eric Voit
                          Alexander Clemm
                          Alberto Gonzalez Prieto
                          Einar Nilsen-Nygaard
                          Ambika Prasad Tripathy
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-06.txt
	Pages           : 52
	Date            : 2017-10-27

Abstract:
   This document defines capabilities and operations for the customized
   establishment of subscriptions upon a publisher's event streams.
   Also defined are delivery mechanisms for instances of the resulting
   notification messages.  Effectively this allows a subscriber to
   request and receive a continuous, custom feed of publisher generated
   information.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-06
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-06

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-06


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-06.txt
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Thanks all for the comments during the last few weeks.   The agreed comment=
s are now posted.

The open issues are at:
https://github.com/netconf-wg/rfc5277bis/issues

This version includes best guess answers for the two emails I sent a few ho=
urs ago:
(1) a simplification so that "encoding" is not mandatory for dynamic subscr=
iptions (it is inherited from the transport session)
(2) A "connecting" status for configured subscription receivers.

If people prefer alternatives, these can be backed out.

Thanks,
Eric

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-
> drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: Friday, October 27, 2017 6:21 PM
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: netconf@ietf.org
> Subject: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notification=
s-06.txt
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct=
ories.
> This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.
>=20
>         Title           : Custom Subscription to Event Streams
>         Authors         : Eric Voit
>                           Alexander Clemm
>                           Alberto Gonzalez Prieto
>                           Einar Nilsen-Nygaard
>                           Ambika Prasad Tripathy
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-06.txt
> 	Pages           : 52
> 	Date            : 2017-10-27
>=20
> Abstract:
>    This document defines capabilities and operations for the customized
>    establishment of subscriptions upon a publisher's event streams.
>    Also defined are delivery mechanisms for instances of the resulting
>    notification messages.  Effectively this allows a subscriber to
>    request and receive a continuous, custom feed of publisher generated
>    information.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notificati=
ons/
>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-0=
6
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-
> notifications-06
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notific=
ations-
> 06
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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Subject: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-11.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : YANG Datastore Subscription
        Authors         : Alexander Clemm
                          Eric Voit
                          Alberto Gonzalez Prieto
                          Ambika Prasad Tripathy
                          Einar Nilsen-Nygaard
                          Andy Bierman
                          Balazs Lengyel
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-11.txt
	Pages           : 52
	Date            : 2017-10-27

Abstract:
   Providing visibility into changes made on YANG configuration and
   operational objects enables new capabilities such as remote mirroring
   of configuration and operational state.  Via the mechanism described
   in this document, subscriber applications may request a continuous,
   customized stream of updates from a YANG datastore.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-11
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-11

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-11


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-11.txt
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New version posted includes:
- a few items as discussed mailer during two week review
- inherited changes from subscribed-notifications
- scrubbed examples (were namespace issues)
- a title change (to remove the verb)

Eric

> -----Original Message-----
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> drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: Friday, October 27, 2017 6:45 PM
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
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> Subject: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-11.txt
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct=
ories.
> This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.
>=20
>         Title           : YANG Datastore Subscription
>         Authors         : Alexander Clemm
>                           Eric Voit
>                           Alberto Gonzalez Prieto
>                           Ambika Prasad Tripathy
>                           Einar Nilsen-Nygaard
>                           Andy Bierman
>                           Balazs Lengyel
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-11.txt
> 	Pages           : 52
> 	Date            : 2017-10-27
>=20
> Abstract:
>    Providing visibility into changes made on YANG configuration and
>    operational objects enables new capabilities such as remote mirroring
>    of configuration and operational state.  Via the mechanism described
>    in this document, subscriber applications may request a continuous,
>    customized stream of updates from a YANG datastore.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push/
>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-11
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-11
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-11
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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From nobody Mon Oct 30 08:00:08 2017
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Subject: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications-06.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : NETCONF Support for Event Notifications
        Authors         : Alberto Gonzalez Prieto
                          Eric Voit
                          Alexander Clemm
                          Einar Nilsen-Nygaard
                          Ambika Prasad Tripathy
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications-06.txt
	Pages           : 20
	Date            : 2017-10-30

Abstract:
   This document provides a NETCONF binding for
   [I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications].  Included are:

   o  Transport mappings for subscription RPCs, state change
      notifications, and notification messages

   o  Functionality which must be supported with NETCONF

   o  Examples in appendices


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications-06
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From nobody Mon Oct 30 10:21:25 2017
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Custom Subscription to Event Streams
        Authors         : Eric Voit
                          Alexander Clemm
                          Alberto Gonzalez Prieto
                          Einar Nilsen-Nygaard
                          Ambika Prasad Tripathy
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-07.txt
	Pages           : 52
	Date            : 2017-10-30

Abstract:
   This document defines capabilities and operations for the customized
   establishment of subscriptions upon a publisher's event streams.
   Also defined are delivery mechanisms for instances of the resulting
   notification messages.  Effectively this allows a subscriber to
   request and receive a continuous, custom feed of publisher generated
   information.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-07
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A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-07


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From nobody Mon Oct 30 10:26:33 2017
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Subject: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-01.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : RESTCONF Update to Support the NMDA
        Authors         : Martin Bjorklund
                          Juergen Schoenwaelder
                          Phil Shafer
                          Kent Watsen
                          Robert Wilton
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-restconf-01.txt
	Pages           : 7
	Date            : 2017-10-30

Abstract:
   This document updates RESTCONF [RFC8040] in order to support the
   Network Management Datastore Architecture (NMDA) defined in
   [I-D.ietf-netmod-revised-datastores].


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : NETCONF Model for NMDA
        Authors         : Martin Bjorklund
                          Juergen Schoenwaelder
                          Phil Shafer
                          Kent Watsen
                          Robert Wilton
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf-01.txt
	Pages           : 13
	Date            : 2017-10-30

Abstract:
   The "Network Management Datastore Architecture" (NMDA) improves on
   NETCONF by adding new features to give more accurate handling of
   configuration and operational data.  These include ability to inspect
   the current operational values of configuration data, allowing
   clients to use identical paths for retrieving the configured values
   and the operational values.  These new features require additional
   operations in network management applications such as NETCONF.  This
   document details those new operations.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-nmda-netconf/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
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Subject: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis-02.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : YANG Library
        Authors         : Andy Bierman
                          Martin Bjorklund
                          Kent Watsen
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-rfc7895bis-02.txt
	Pages           : 23
	Date            : 2017-10-30

Abstract:
   This document describes a YANG library that provides information
   about all the YANG modules and datastores used by a network
   management server (e.g., a Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF)
   server).  Simple caching mechanisms are provided to allow clients to
   minimize retrieval of this information.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
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A diff from the previous version is available at:
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From nobody Mon Oct 30 14:59:25 2017
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From: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>
To: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
CC: Yingzhen Qu <yingzhen.qu@huawei.com>, Jeff Tantsula <jeff.tantsura@huawei.com>, Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: New revision of "Discepancy Detection between NMDA Datastores"
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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 21:59:04 +0000
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Subject: [Netconf] New revision of "Discepancy Detection between NMDA Datastores"
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--_000_644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0EABA82Csjceml521mbxchi_
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Hi,

We just posted -01 of "Discepancy Detection between NMDA Datastores" ( http=
s://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-01)

The new revision includes a few smaller incremental updates, mostly to addr=
ess Rob Wilton's comments.  Specifically:

-          The ability to perform a time-dampened comparison is now conditi=
onal on a feature.  The semantics of this have been defined in a bit more d=
etail

-          Some minor editorial updates

Also, the ability to include origin metadata is alluded to (to take up Rob'=
s suggestion), but still needs to be formally included.

Thanks
--- Alex
(on behalf of the coauthors)

--_000_644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0EABA82Csjceml521mbxchi_
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We just posted -01 of &quot;Discepancy Detection bet=
ween NMDA Datastores&quot; (
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-01">ht=
tps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-clemm-netconf-nmda-diff-01</a>)
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The new revision includes a few smaller incremental =
updates, mostly to address Rob Wilton&#8217;s comments.&nbsp; Specifically:=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>The ability to perform a time-dampened comparison i=
s now conditional on a feature.&nbsp; The semantics of this have been defin=
ed in a bit more detail<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">-<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Some minor editorial updates<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also, the ability to include origin metadata is allu=
ded to (to take up Rob&#8217;s suggestion), but still needs to be formally =
included. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--- Alex<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(on behalf of the coauthors)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
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--_000_644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0EABA82Csjceml521mbxchi_--


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Subject: Re: [Netconf] Agenda Requests
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We have received requests for agenda slots from YANG push + friends =
drafts, and Kent will be providing update on this set of drafts. If you =
are interested in presenting, we need to know about it now.

Thanks.

> On Oct 17, 2017, at 4:16 AM, Mahesh Jethanandani =
<mjethanandani@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> The IETF 100 Preliminary Agenda has been published; you can find it at =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/agenda.html =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/agenda.html>
> NETCONF WG will be meeting on Thursday at 15:50 in Collyer=E2=80=99s =
Conf. Room.
>=20
> If you'd like a slot to present some documents, please send a request =
to chairs at netconf-chairs@ietf.org <mailto:netconf-chairs@ietf.org>. =
The draft should have been posted to the mailing list and discussed. =
Please indicate who will be presenting and how much time they will need.
>=20
> The deadline for draft submission is UTC 23:59 on 2017-10-30 (Monday).
>=20
>=20
> Mahesh & Kent
>=20
>=20
>=20

Mahesh and Kent (as co-chairs).


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">We have received requests for agenda slots from YANG push + =
friends drafts, and Kent will be providing update on this set of drafts. =
If you are interested in presenting, we need to know about it now.<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thanks.<br class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 17, 2017, at 4:16 AM, Mahesh Jethanandani &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><p =
style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 12px; font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; =
font-family: 'Helvetica Neue'; color: rgb(50, 51, 51); background-color: =
rgb(241, 241, 241);" class=3D"">The IETF 100 Preliminary Agenda has been =
published; you can find it at <a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/agenda.html" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: #0433ff" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/agenda.html</span></a>=
</p><p style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 12px; font-size: 14px; line-height: =
normal; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue'; color: rgb(50, 51, 51); =
background-color: rgb(241, 241, 241);" class=3D"">NETCONF WG will be =
meeting on Thursday at 15:50 in Collyer=E2=80=99s Conf. Room.</p><p =
style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 12px; font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; =
font-family: 'Helvetica Neue'; color: rgb(50, 51, 51); background-color: =
rgb(241, 241, 241);" class=3D"">If you'd like a slot to present some =
documents, please send a request to chairs at <a =
href=3D"mailto:netconf-chairs@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">netconf-chairs@ietf.org</a>. The draft should have been =
posted to the mailing list and discussed. Please indicate who will be =
presenting and how much time they will need.</p><p style=3D"margin: 0px =
0px 12px; font-size: 14px; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Helvetica =
Neue'; color: rgb(50, 51, 51); background-color: rgb(241, 241, 241);" =
class=3D"">The deadline for draft submission is UTC 23:59 on 2017-10-30 =
(Monday).</p><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Mahesh &amp; Kent</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">

</div>

<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Mahesh and Kent (as co-chairs).</div>

</div>
<br class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_3EDE0C21-9579-4850-8202-8A82EB332713--


From nobody Mon Oct 30 15:19:12 2017
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Subject: [Netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-keystore-04.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : YANG Data Model for a "Keystore" Mechanism
        Author          : Kent Watsen
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-keystore-04.txt
	Pages           : 27
	Date            : 2017-10-30

Abstract:
   This document defines a YANG module called a "keystore", containing
   pinned certificates and pinned SSH host-keys.  The module also
   defines a grouping for configuring public key pairs and a grouping
   for configuring certificates.  The module also defines a notification
   that a system can use when one of its configured certificates is
   about to expire.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-keystore/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-keystore-04
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-keystore-04

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netconf-keystore-04


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From nobody Mon Oct 30 15:22:48 2017
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : YANG Groupings for SSH Clients and SSH Servers
        Authors         : Kent Watsen
                          Gary Wu
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-ssh-client-server-04.txt
	Pages           : 34
	Date            : 2017-10-30

Abstract:
   This document defines three YANG modules: the first defines groupings
   for a generic SSH client, the second defines groupings for a generic
   SSH server, and the third defines common identities and groupings
   used by both the client and the server.  It is intended that these
   groupings will be used by applications using the SSH protocol.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-ssh-client-server/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-ssh-client-server-04
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-ssh-client-server-04

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netconf-ssh-client-server-04


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until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Mon Oct 30 15:33:24 2017
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : YANG Groupings for TLS Clients and TLS Servers
        Authors         : Kent Watsen
                          Gary Wu
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-tls-client-server-05.txt
	Pages           : 29
	Date            : 2017-10-30

Abstract:
   This document defines three YANG modules: the first defines groupings
   for a generic TLS client, the second defines groupings for a generic
   TLS server, and the third defines common identities and groupings
   used by both the client and the server.  It is intended that these
   groupings will be used by applications using the TLS protocol.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-tls-client-server/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-tls-client-server-05
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : NETCONF Client and Server Models
        Authors         : Kent Watsen
                          Gary Wu
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-server-05.txt
	Pages           : 52
	Date            : 2017-10-30

Abstract:
   This document defines two YANG modules, one module to configure a
   NETCONF client and the other module to configure a NETCONF server.
   Both modules support both the SSH and TLS transport protocols, and
   support both standard NETCONF and NETCONF Call Home connections.

Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor)

   This draft contains many placeholder values that need to be replaced
   with finalized values at the time of publication.  This note
   summarizes all of the substitutions that are needed.  No other RFC
   Editor instructions are specified elsewhere in this document.

   This document contains references to other drafts in progress, both
   in the Normative References section, as well as in body text
   throughout.  Please update the following references to reflect their
   final RFC assignments:

   o  I-D.ietf-netconf-keystore

   o  I-D.ietf-netconf-ssh-client-server

   o  I-D.ietf-netconf-tls-client-server

   Artwork in this document contains shorthand references to drafts in
   progress.  Please apply the following replacements:

   o  "XXXX" --> the assigned RFC value for this draft

   o  "YYYY" --> the assigned RFC value for I-D.ietf-netconf-ssh-client-
      server

   o  "ZZZZ" --> the assigned RFC value for I-D.ietf-netconf-tls-client-
      server

   Artwork in this document contains placeholder values for the date of
   publication of this draft.  Please apply the following replacement:

   o  "2017-10-30" --> the publication date of this draft

   The following Appendix section is to be removed prior to publication:

   o  Appendix A.  Change Log


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-server/

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https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-server-05
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : RESTCONF Client and Server Models
        Authors         : Kent Watsen
                          Gary Wu
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-client-server-05.txt
	Pages           : 38
	Date            : 2017-10-30

Abstract:
   This document defines two YANG modules, one module to configure a
   RESTCONF client and the other module to configure a RESTCONF server.
   Both modules support the TLS transport protocol with both standard
   RESTCONF and RESTCONF Call Home connections.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-client-server/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-client-server-05
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-client-server-05

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From nobody Mon Oct 30 16:25:49 2017
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : YANG Groupings for SSH Clients and SSH Servers
        Authors         : Kent Watsen
                          Gary Wu
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-ssh-client-server-05.txt
	Pages           : 34
	Date            : 2017-10-30

Abstract:
   This document defines three YANG modules: the first defines groupings
   for a generic SSH client, the second defines groupings for a generic
   SSH server, and the third defines common identities and groupings
   used by both the client and the server.  It is intended that these
   groupings will be used by applications using the SSH protocol.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-ssh-client-server/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-ssh-client-server-05
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-ssh-client-server-05

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netconf-ssh-client-server-05


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: synopsis of recent updates on keystone and client/server drafts
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Subject: [Netconf] synopsis of recent updates on keystone and client/server drafts
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