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Message-ID: <3B259563-1075-4C41-A832-D7633C39173B@foxeg.com> References: <150285025423.12514.106587665039751833.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <150285025423.12514.106587665039751833.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.25.0.170815 x-originating-ip: [90.216.150.195] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BN3PR05MB2466; 20:/LNDee4D6VVRDiIswnjPQVQrMWqfCrxvLfEeBZvEmBE6DcsvqXSyKOqUJYe7RTqAB1lYU1qx3X0U3pklnpgdnGt72+3aTj5m1mxqSYyrNnRyfoU+HOhonmIR/rJukVr1JcDtkim2nhnXEhj2Veczh13zqw7jKfaUs8jVc7vuMupP6cEZTXVoRg6Gh6H5J3RgYmWnRUj29riSs1aWnffeKHakQaNC0z8FpxJzv9G98gtWWlLz++6XBv8cngtj+f9/ x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SSOS; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: fdfaaa7c-2bec-4872-59a4-08d5002bf8dc x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(300000500095)(300135000095)(300000501095)(300135300095)(22001)(300000502095)(300135100095)(2017030254152)(48565401081)(300000503095)(300135400095)(2017052603199)(201703131423075)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(300000504095)(300135200095)(300000505095)(300135600095)(300000506095)(300135500095); SRVR:BN3PR05MB2466; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BN3PR05MB2466: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(10436049006162)(131327999870524); x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(100000700101)(100105000095)(100000701101)(100105300095)(100000702101)(100105100095)(6040450)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(10201501046)(100000703101)(100105400095)(93006095)(93001095)(3002001)(6055026)(6041248)(20161123564025)(20161123558100)(201703131423075)(201702281528075)(201703061421075)(201703061406153)(20161123562025)(20161123560025)(20161123555025)(6072148)(201708071742011)(100000704101)(100105200095)(100000705101)(100105500095); SRVR:BN3PR05MB2466; BCL:0; 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lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1709200184 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 13:32:09 -0000 QWRhbSwNCg0KVGhhbmtzIGZvciB5b3VyIERJU0NVU1Mgb24gdGhlIEFuY2lsbGFyeSBSVFAgSS1E LiAgSSB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIHlvdXIgY29uY2VybiBhYm91dCB0aGUgZGlmZmVyZW5jZSBiZXR3ZWVu IFJUUCBzdHJlYW1zIHRoYXQgYXJlIHNpbXBseSBzeW5jaHJvbml6ZWQgdXNpbmcg4oCcTFPigJ0g dmVyc3VzIFJUUCBzdHJlYW1zIHRoYXQgYWxzbyBoYXZlIGFuIGludGltYXRlIHJlbGF0aW9uc2hp cCAoc3VjaCBhcyBiZWluZyBwYXJ0IG9mIHRoZSBzYW1lIOKAnG094oCdIG1lZGlhIHNlY3Rpb24p 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<36CCC1FF92B4AB4B8763EF2C6ABEDC28@namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: fox.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 21 Sep 2017 14:37:15.6169 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: de99ade3-81db-4070-ae0d-3c1562041b30 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN3PR05MB2658 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-09-21_02:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1709210194 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2017 14:37:27 -0000 SSBhbSBzdGlsbCB0cnlpbmcgdG8gZGV0ZXJtaW5lIGEgZ29vZCByZXNwb25zZSB0byBBZGFtIFJv YWNo4oCZcyBESVNDVVNTIGl0ZW0gcmVnYXJkaW5nIGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtcGF5bG9hZC1ydHAtYW5j aWxsYXJ5IGFib3V0IHJlbGF0aW9uc2hpcCBvZiBzdHJlYW1zIGluIFNEUC4gIEJ1dCBJIGNhbiBh ZGRyZXNzIHRoZSBvdGhlciBjb21tZW50cyBub3c6DQoNCjEpIEkgY2FuIGFkZCBzb21lIGFkZGl0 aW9uYWwgZmllbGQgdmFsdWVzIGluIHRoZSBSVFAgcGF5bG9hZCBleGFtcGxlDQoNCjIpIEkgd2ls bCBhZGQgbm9ybWF0aXZlIGJlaGF2aW9yIGZvciBGIGZpZWxkIDBiMDEuDQoNCjMpIEFsbCBTREkg Zm9ybWF0cyB0aGF0IEkgYW0gY3VycmVudGx5IGF3YXJlIG9mIGFyZSBiYXNlZCBvbiBtdWx0aXBs ZSBzdHJlYW1zIG9mIDEwODBwLiAgSG93ZXZlciwgYXMgeW91IHN1Z2dlc3QsIEkgd2lsbCBhZGQg Y29kZXMgaW4gTGluZV9OdW1iZXIgYW5kIEhvcml6b250YWxfT2Zmc2V0IGZvciDigJxsYXJnZXIg 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In-Reply-To: <7AC61009-5C6F-4D86-9956-33C5519C0940@foxeg.com> References: <150285025423.12514.106587665039751833.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7AC61009-5C6F-4D86-9956-33C5519C0940@foxeg.com> From: "Ali C. Begen" Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2017 18:00:30 +0300 Message-ID: To: Thomas Edwards Cc: Adam Roach , The IESG , "draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary@ietf.org" , "payload-chairs@ietf.org" , "acbegen@gmail.com" , "payload@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c0b0e1082a0b80559b45a85" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2017 15:00:45 -0000 --94eb2c0b0e1082a0b80559b45a85 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Regarding the grouping, I understand Adam's concern on using LS semantics. Maybe a good compromise would be to use FID semantics? https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5888#section-8.4 It would be an overkill to propose a new grouping semantics for ANC. In Adam's example there are two video (mcast 1) and two ANC flows (mcast 2). How typical is this scenario is I am not sure (I'd expect each video and ANC flow to be on a separate mcast session). Thomas may provide further insight here. And if something is not (or should not be) supported, we can just say that in the draft. Managing complex grouping relations is a not very easy. RFC 4756 had to be revised rather quickly once we had FEC framework in place. -acbegen On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Thomas Edwards wrote: > I am still trying to determine a good response to Adam Roach=E2=80=99s DI= SCUSS > item regarding draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary about relationship of > streams in SDP. But I can address the other comments now: > > 1) I can add some additional field values in the RTP payload example > > 2) I will add normative behavior for F field 0b01. > > 3) All SDI formats that I am currently aware of are based on multiple > streams of 1080p. However, as you suggest, I will add codes in Line_Numb= er > and Horizontal_Offset for =E2=80=9Clarger than can be represented=E2=80= =9D for any future > formats that might be larger than 1080p. We did find a corner case of > 720p24 that has more luma sample numbers than 4096, but the consensus > within knowledgeable broadcast engineers is that no one would use up all > the 2840 words of HANC space available on a line in these formats, althou= gh > it is worth a note that I will add. Easy conversion to/from SMPTE ST 203= 8 > is considered important, thus I am not in favor of enlarging the bit size > of these fields as SMPTE ST 2038 has the same bit sizes. > > 4) Although I suspect typical use would be ANC data on its own multicast > IP address, I see no reason to stop it from being on the same multicast I= P > address as related video. I can add a statement explicitly saying they > are both OK, and indicate that being in the same media section this can b= e > used as an alternative to using LS groups. However, the response to this > may be affected by the solution to the DISCUSS item on stream relationshi= ps. > > 5) I can add offer rejections of setting the corresponding port number to > 0 or removing the PT. > > -Thomas > > -- > Thomas Edwards > FOX Networks Engineering & Operations > VP Engineering & Development > thomas.edwards@fox.com > +1-310-369-6696 > 10201 W Pico Blvd > Los Angeles, CA 90035 > > > > On 8/15/17, 7:24 PM, "Adam Roach" wrote: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------= - > > It is common in examples of RTP payloads (such as Figure 1) to includ= e > values > for those fields whose values are illustrative of the format itself. > The "V=3D2" > in Figure 1 is an example of this. I would suggest that the example > would be > slightly improved by including a similar notation for (e.g.) "Length = =3D > 32", > "ANC_Count =3D 2", and the two Data_Count fields. > > Section 2.1 defines "b01" as "invalid" for the F field. It does not, > however, > prescribe what recipients of such a value should do; reasonable > options would > include (a) treat it as 0b00; (b) ignore the ANC but process any > others that > might be present; or (c) ignore the entire packet. I'll note that (b= ) > allows > you to come back and add semantics for "0b01" at a later date, if you > find a > reason to do so. In any case, to minimize variations among recipients= , > I would > suggest defining concrete behavior here. > > [Warning: I'm not terribly familiar with SMPTE video formats, and wit= h > the > UHD-and-higher specs in particular, so it may be that the following > comment can > be answered with "that can never happen no matter how high-res stream= s > get in > the future."] As far as I know, SMPTE defines 4k as having 4 streams > (each > efectively a normal 1080 stream), 8k as having 16, and the > future-looking 16k > (presumably) having 64. Given that the Horizontal_Offset can > communicate widths > only up to 4093 samples (well within striking distance of the 2640 > samples used > by a single stream), and that the StreamNum field can communicate at > most 128 > streams, it seems that any sizes larger than 16k run the risk of > exceeding the > ability for these fields to place ancillary data packets at the corre= ct > horizontal position. I would recommend defining another reserved valu= e > for > Horizontal_Offset (0xFFD), that can be used to mean "longer field > follows" in a > future specification; and a reserved value (0x7F) for StreamNum for > the same > purpose. Line_Number, with a maximum value of 2045, is similarly with= in > striking distance of the 1125 lines used by a single stream, and woul= d > likely > need the same accommodations. > > It is implied, but not stated, that implementations should use > different > sessions (or at least different media sections) to convey smpte291 > payloads > than the video streams they correspond to. If this is the intention, > please > include a normative statement to that effect. If it is okay to includ= e > both > payload types in the same media section, please add a statement > explicitly > saying so, and indicate that this can be used as an alternative to > using LS > groups. > > Section 5.1 indicates that the answerer can respond with "all or a > subset" of > the DID_SDID parameters, or that it "MAY reject the offer." Of > course, an > answerer is always able to reject an offer, but this text seems to > imply that > it might do so if it doesn't want to receive any of the DID_SDID > parameters > indicated in the offer. That seems like massive overkill. Since the > model here > appears to be using multiple sessions (or, at least, separate media > sections) > to convey smpte291 data, I would offer that this should instead say > something > like "MAY set the corresponding port number to 0 to decline the > smpte291 > stream". (If you opt to allow the smpte291 payloads to be in the same > media > section as their corresponding video streams, this would instead > involve > removing the corresponding PT). > > Nit: The final line in the final example of section 4 is too long. > Consider > outdenting by two characters. > > > > > --94eb2c0b0e1082a0b80559b45a85 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Regarding the grouping, I understand Adam's concern on= using LS semantics. Maybe a good compromise would be to use FID semantics?=

It w= ould be an overkill to propose a new grouping semantics for ANC. In Adam= 9;s example there are two video (mcast 1) and two ANC flows (mcast 2). How = typical is this scenario is I am not sure (I'd expect each video and AN= C flow to be on a separate mcast session). Thomas may provide further insig= ht here. And if something is not (or should not be) supported, we can just = say that in the draft.

Managing complex grouping r= elations is a not very easy. RFC 4756 had to be revised rather quickly once= we had FEC framework in place.

-acbegen

On Thu, Sep 21,= 2017 at 5:37 PM, Thomas Edwards <Thomas.Edwards@fox.com> wrote:
I am still trying to determine = a good response to Adam Roach=E2=80=99s DISCUSS item regarding draft-ietf-p= ayload-rtp-ancillary about relationship of streams in SDP.=C2=A0 But I= can address the other comments now:

1) I can add some additional field values in the RTP payload example

2) I will add normative behavior for F field 0b01.

3) All SDI formats that I am currently aware of are based on multiple strea= ms of 1080p.=C2=A0 However, as you suggest, I will add codes in Line_Number= and Horizontal_Offset for =E2=80=9Clarger than can be represented=E2=80=9D= for any future formats that might be larger than 1080p.=C2=A0 We did find = a corner case of 720p24 that has more luma sample numbers than 4096, but th= e consensus within knowledgeable broadcast engineers is that no one would u= se up all the 2840 words of HANC space available on a line in these formats= , although it is worth a note that I will add.=C2=A0 Easy conversion to/fro= m SMPTE ST 2038 is considered important, thus I am not in favor of enlargin= g the bit size of these fields as SMPTE ST 2038 has the same bit sizes.

4) Although I suspect typical use would be ANC data on its own multicast IP= address, I see no reason to stop it from being on the same multicast IP ad= dress as related video.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I can add a statement explicitly saying= they are both OK, and indicate that being in the same media section this c= an be used as an alternative to using LS groups.=C2=A0 However, the respons= e to this may be affected by the solution to the DISCUSS item on stream rel= ationships.

5) I can add offer rejections of setting the corresponding port number to 0= or removing the PT.

-Thomas

--
Thomas Edwards
FOX Networks Engineering & Operations
VP Engineering & Development
thomas.edwards@fox.com
+1-310-369-6696
10201 W Pico Blvd
Los Angeles, CA 90035



On 8/15/17, 7:24 PM, "Adam Roach" <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:

----------------------------= ------------------------------------------
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 COMMENT:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --------------------------------------------------------= --------------

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 It is common in examples of RTP payloads (such as Figure 1) t= o include values
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 for those fields whose values are illustrative of the format = itself. The "V=3D2"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in Figure 1 is an example of this. I would suggest that the e= xample would be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 slightly improved by including a similar notation for (e.g.) = "Length =3D 32",
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "ANC_Count =3D 2", and the two Data_Count fields.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Section 2.1 defines "b01" as "invalid" fo= r the F field. It does not, however,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 prescribe what recipients of such a value should do; reasonab= le options would
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 include (a) treat it as 0b00; (b) ignore the ANC but process = any others that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 might be present; or (c) ignore the entire packet.=C2=A0 I= 9;ll note that (b) allows
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 you to come back and add semantics for "0b01" at a = later date, if you find a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reason to do so. In any case, to minimize variations among re= cipients, I would
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 suggest defining concrete behavior here.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [Warning: I'm not terribly familiar with SMPTE video form= ats, and with the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 UHD-and-higher specs in particular, so it may be that the fol= lowing comment can
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 be answered with "that can never happen no matter how hi= gh-res streams get in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the future."] As far as I know, SMPTE defines 4k as havi= ng 4 streams (each
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 efectively a normal 1080 stream), 8k as having 16, and the fu= ture-looking 16k
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (presumably) having 64. Given that the Horizontal_Offset can = communicate widths
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 only up to 4093 samples (well within striking distance of the= 2640 samples used
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 by a single stream), and that the StreamNum field can communi= cate at most 128
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 streams, it seems that any sizes larger than 16k run the risk= of exceeding the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ability for these fields to place ancillary data packets at t= he correct
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 horizontal position. I would recommend defining another reser= ved value for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Horizontal_Offset (0xFFD), that can be used to mean "lon= ger field follows" in a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 future specification; and a reserved value (0x7F) for StreamN= um for the same
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 purpose. Line_Number, with a maximum value of 2045, is simila= rly within
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 striking distance of the 1125 lines used by a single stream, = and would likely
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 need the same accommodations.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 It is implied, but not stated, that implementations should us= e different
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sessions (or at least different media sections) to convey smp= te291 payloads
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 than the video streams they correspond to. If this is the int= ention, please
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 include a normative statement to that effect. If it is okay t= o include both
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 payload types in the same media section, please add a stateme= nt explicitly
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 saying so, and indicate that this can be used as an alternati= ve to using LS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 groups.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Section 5.1 indicates that the answerer can respond with &quo= t;all or a subset" of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the DID_SDID parameters, or that it "MAY reject the offe= r."=C2=A0 Of course, an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 answerer is always able to reject an offer, but this text see= ms to imply that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 it might do so if it doesn't want to receive any of the D= ID_SDID parameters
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 indicated in the offer. That seems like massive overkill. Sin= ce the model here
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 appears to be using multiple sessions (or, at least, separate= media sections)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to convey smpte291 data, I would offer that this should inste= ad say something
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 like "MAY set the corresponding port number to 0 to decl= ine the smpte291
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 stream". (If you opt to allow the smpte291 payloads to b= e in the same media
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 section as their corresponding video streams, this would inst= ead involve
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 removing the corresponding PT).

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Nit: The final line in the final example of section 4 is too = long. Consider
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 outdenting by two characters.





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classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1709210202 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] Spencer Dawkins' No Objection on draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-10: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2017 15:13:15 -0000 VGhhbmtzIFNwZW5jZXIsIEkgd2lsbCBlZGl0IHRoaXMgcGFyYWdyYXBoIHRvOg0KDQrigJxBTkMg aXMgZ2VuZXJhbGx5IGFzc29jaWF0ZWQgd2l0aCB0aGUgY2FycmlhZ2Ugb2YgbWV0YWRhdGEgd2l0 aGluIHRoZSBiaXQgc3RyZWFtIG9mIGEgU2VyaWFsIERpZ2l0YWwgSW50ZXJmYWNlIChTREkpLCBz dWNoIGFzIHRoZSBzdGFuZGFyZCBkZWZpbml0aW9uIChTRCkgU2VyaWFsIERpZ2l0YWwgSW50ZXJm YWNlLCB0aGUgMS41IEdiL3MgU2VyaWFsIERpZ2l0YWwgSW50ZXJmYWNlIGZvciBoaWdoIGRlZmlu aXRpb24gKEhEKSB0ZWxldmlzaW9uIGFwcGxpY2F0aW9ucywgb3IgdGhlIDMgR2IvcyBTaWduYWwv 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aXRhbCBJbnRlcmZhY2UgZm9yIGhpZ2ggZGVmaW5pdGlvbg0KICAgICAgIChIRCkgdGVsZXZpc2lv biBhcHBsaWNhdGlvbnMuDQogICAgDQogICAgUGVyaGFwcyB1c2luZyB0aGUgZGVzY3JpcHRpb25z IGZpcnN0IGluIGVhY2ggY2FzZSwgYW5kIGVuZGluZyB3aXRoIHRoZSBuYW1lIGFuZA0KICAgIHJl ZmVyZW5jZSBpbiBwYXJlbnRoZXNlcywgd291bGQgYmUgY2xlYXJlcj8NCiAgICANCiAgICANCiAg ICANCg0K From nobody Thu Sep 21 08:22:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AC0C134B7B; Thu, 21 Sep 2017 08:22:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.88 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.88 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CQ1pVfPhY05r; Thu, 21 Sep 2017 08:22:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3DD3413247A; Thu, 21 Sep 2017 08:22:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Orochi.local (99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id v8LFME0g097756 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 21 Sep 2017 10:22:15 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228] claimed to be Orochi.local To: Thomas Edwards , The IESG Cc: "payload-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary@ietf.org" , "payload@ietf.org" , "acbegen@gmail.com" References: <150285025423.12514.106587665039751833.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3B259563-1075-4C41-A832-D7633C39173B@foxeg.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <61440eb5-32c3-3696-be38-8dc7c4eaf72f@nostrum.com> Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2017 10:22:09 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3B259563-1075-4C41-A832-D7633C39173B@foxeg.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2017 15:22:21 -0000 On 9/20/17 08:31, Thomas Edwards wrote: > Adam, > > Thanks for your DISCUSS on the Ancillary RTP I-D. I understand your concern about the difference between RTP streams that are simply synchronized using “LS” versus RTP streams that also have an intimate relationship (such as being part of the same “m=” media section). > > The challenge is that the use case of the Ancillary I-D within the SMPTE ST 2110 architecture would generally require separate network destination addresses for the different elements (video, audio, ancillary data) so they can be flexibly composed within broadcast plants at the network level. Your alternative SDP example appears to place both the video and the ancillary data onto the same destination address (233.252.0.1). Is there an appropriate SDP mechanism to communicate the intimate relationship between the RTP streams, but also have them transmitted on separate destination IP addresses (and synchronized)? With that requirement, I think Ali's suggestion is the right one: the grouping you want to use to bind these together is FID. I believe that simply replacing "LS" with "FID" in the document would be adequate (i.e., I don't think this document needs a treatment of LS). It is probably also worth mentioning in the document that the other approach (i.e., including both the smpte291 format and the main video codec format in the same session) is _valid_, but that using different IP addresses is frequently necessary, and FID is the mechanism used to do so. Thanks! /a From nobody Thu Sep 21 08:25:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17499134B7B; Thu, 21 Sep 2017 08:25:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.88 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.88 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q7a1IOj1VXpq; Thu, 21 Sep 2017 08:25:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D092213247A; Thu, 21 Sep 2017 08:25:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Orochi.local (99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id v8LFPZZL098458 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 21 Sep 2017 10:25:35 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228] claimed to be Orochi.local To: Thomas Edwards , The IESG Cc: "payload-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary@ietf.org" , "payload@ietf.org" , "acbegen@gmail.com" References: <150285025423.12514.106587665039751833.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7AC61009-5C6F-4D86-9956-33C5519C0940@foxeg.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <7130900b-6a68-5ba6-7665-d41b58e9119b@nostrum.com> Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2017 10:25:30 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7AC61009-5C6F-4D86-9956-33C5519C0940@foxeg.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2017 15:25:41 -0000 On 9/21/17 09:37, Thomas Edwards wrote: > I am still trying to determine a good response to Adam Roach’s DISCUSS item regarding draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary about relationship of streams in SDP. But I can address the other comments now: > > 1) I can add some additional field values in the RTP payload example > > 2) I will add normative behavior for F field 0b01. > > 3) All SDI formats that I am currently aware of are based on multiple streams of 1080p. However, as you suggest, I will add codes in Line_Number and Horizontal_Offset for “larger than can be represented” for any future formats that might be larger than 1080p. We did find a corner case of 720p24 that has more luma sample numbers than 4096, but the consensus within knowledgeable broadcast engineers is that no one would use up all the 2840 words of HANC space available on a line in these formats, although it is worth a note that I will add. Easy conversion to/from SMPTE ST 2038 is considered important, thus I am not in favor of enlarging the bit size of these fields as SMPTE ST 2038 has the same bit sizes. > > 4) Although I suspect typical use would be ANC data on its own multicast IP address, I see no reason to stop it from being on the same multicast IP address as related video. I can add a statement explicitly saying they are both OK, and indicate that being in the same media section this can be used as an alternative to using LS groups. However, the response to this may be affected by the solution to the DISCUSS item on stream relationships. > > 5) I can add offer rejections of setting the corresponding port number to 0 or removing the PT. > > -Thomas > Thanks! This all looks good. /a From nobody Thu Sep 21 08:33:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D42713214D; Thu, 21 Sep 2017 08:33:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=foxgroupinc.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tWquKKoSrRyG; Thu, 21 Sep 2017 08:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00195501.pphosted.com (mx0b-00195501.pphosted.com [67.231.157.160]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 67384126B6D; Thu, 21 Sep 2017 08:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0082293.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00195501.pphosted.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id v8LFUONp015804; Thu, 21 Sep 2017 08:32:56 -0700 Received: from nam02-cy1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-cys01nam02lp0056.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.56]) by mx0b-00195501.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2d4fg9gaqx-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 21 Sep 2017 08:32:56 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=FoxGroupInc.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-fox-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=T1Nie/WM9vG+/FRPEdockqkwDK4OVi7smtksNpHfETM=; b=cwHQolFXNAQwWdehD6O/XFhMGQIjnUKIILCZO5klr6Y8otMxVVISiGctzD8NOroeUvuMfnbpa5DXdw8aZHOWSlcW65AVdZKqQAi3A7G8MWCt5X8rryyZvFPFu+qlZKYpcMvwo6loZ/lDoRbwy/Eu9XaUDurrh/9AswuIepIzokk= Received: from BN3PR05MB2657.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.166.72.21) by BN3PR05MB2659.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.166.72.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P256) id 15.20.77.5; Thu, 21 Sep 2017 15:32:48 +0000 Received: from BN3PR05MB2657.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.166.72.21]) by BN3PR05MB2657.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.166.72.21]) with mapi id 15.20.0077.011; Thu, 21 Sep 2017 15:32:48 +0000 From: Thomas Edwards To: =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= , The IESG CC: "payload-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary@ietf.org" , "payload@ietf.org" , "acbegen@gmail.com" Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?W3BheWxvYWRdIE1pcmphIEvDvGhsZXdpbmQncyBObyBPYmplY3Rpb24gb24g?= =?utf-8?B?ZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1wYXlsb2FkLXJ0cC1hbmNpbGxhcnktMTA6ICh3aXRoIENP?= =?utf-8?Q?MMENT)?= Thread-Index: AQHTFaS2hUFG8/MFZ0eN8GGPiNMH0aK/PSqA Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2017 15:32:48 +0000 Message-ID: References: <150278752346.21126.1870194955747059354.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <150278752346.21126.1870194955747059354.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.25.0.170815 x-originating-ip: [90.216.150.197] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BN3PR05MB2659; 20:9kcGqV/j5cGap4ltyo2PPr0VcWot/jPorKkHCdvorFoVTfwrODG8Cnkj64s7u5Bf4SiQghTQUHk2oc35yFXPtISERz7WY5f7QgcUFpDXuN5WXs6USSmAOf+xMHZySzArEjVcDzMlLhq6BhUDUxIuM8DuyHwsiFeI7NNcrBc5qjZ76JKLazpmQpp3hrusm4e7OCGtznYCeGoagCmJT9Vww/5d73sKMRd58ywtuLR6212g7DeVJWTzBnZMjasDQ3z4 x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SSOS; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: dafa16a8-e309-4fed-2a64-08d5010603c9 x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(300000500095)(300135000095)(300000501095)(300135300095)(22001)(300000502095)(300135100095)(2017030254152)(300000503095)(300135400095)(48565401081)(2017052603199)(201703131423075)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(300000504095)(300135200095)(300000505095)(300135600095)(300000506095)(300135500095); SRVR:BN3PR05MB2659; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BN3PR05MB2659: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(10436049006162)(100405760836317)(177823376758907); x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(100000700101)(100105000095)(100000701101)(100105300095)(100000702101)(100105100095)(6040450)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(100000703101)(100105400095)(93006095)(93001095)(3002001)(10201501046)(6055026)(6041248)(20161123555025)(201703131423075)(201702281528075)(201703061421075)(201703061406153)(20161123558100)(20161123564025)(20161123562025)(20161123560025)(6072148)(201708071742011)(100000704101)(100105200095)(100000705101)(100105500095); 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SRVR:BN3PR05MB2659; H:BN3PR05MB2657.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: fox.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: fox.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 21 Sep 2017 15:32:48.5865 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: de99ade3-81db-4070-ae0d-3c1562041b30 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN3PR05MB2659 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-09-21_02:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1709210207 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_dra?= =?utf-8?q?ft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-10=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2017 15:33:01 -0000 TWlyamEsDQoNClRoYW5rcyBmb3IgeW91ciBjb21tZW50LiAgVGhpcyBzZWN0aW9uIHdhcyBhIGNv bnNlbnN1cyBkZWNpc2lvbiBhZGRlZCBhZnRlciBzb21lIHNpZ25pZmljYW50IGRpc2N1c3Npb24g YWJvdXQgdGhlIHJlcXVpcmVtZW50cyBmb3IgdGltZWxpbmVzcyBvZiBlbWlzc2lvbiBvZiBSVFAg cGFja2V0cyBvZiBBTkMgZGF0YSwgdGh1cyBJIGJlbGlldmUgaXQgbmVlZHMgdG8gc3RheSBpbiB0 aGUgZG9jdW1lbnQuICBUaGUgdGltZSBhIGNvbnZlcnNpb24gZGV2aWNlIGJldHdlZW4gU0RJIGFu ZCBSVFAgd2FpdHMgYmV0d2VlbiByZWNlcHRpb24gb2YgYW4gQU5DIGRhdGEgcGFja2V0IGFuZCBS 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aXMgbm90ZS4NCiAgICANCiAgICANCiAgICBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KICAgIHBheWxvYWQgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQogICAgcGF5bG9hZEBp ZXRmLm9yZw0KICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vdXJsZGVmZW5zZS5wcm9vZnBvaW50LmNvbS92Mi91cmw/dT1o dHRwcy0zQV9fd3d3LmlldGYub3JnX21haWxtYW5fbGlzdGluZm9fcGF5bG9hZCZkPUR3SUdhUSZj PXV3NlRMdTRod2hIZGlHSk9nd2NXRDRBaktReDZ6dkZjR0VzYmZpWTktRUkmcj1sZWtOT09NNW5v VjYxenJQSDNyd1B5aHRObkxMV29MRUhnZDBxdVF4bHk4Jm09MUNJdGNBbFZ1eFYwTkFyZl9vSmJK UTZTWlZRQjZ0NUZDdW9OVlVlamd0YyZzPVVtMFRkdmk1cUMwWlpQY3NybU5KamNHNDYzZC1FbU9o eW9oU1hVaEJyQWsmZT0gDQogICAgDQoNCg== From nobody Thu Sep 21 11:53:34 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 791051326DF; Thu, 21 Sep 2017 11:53:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 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boundary="001a114934dc5d173e0559b79b96" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] Spencer Dawkins' No Objection on draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-10: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2017 18:53:28 -0000 --001a114934dc5d173e0559b79b96 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Thomas, On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 10:13 AM, Thomas Edwards wrote: > Thanks Spencer, I will edit this paragraph to: > > =E2=80=9CANC is generally associated with the carriage of metadata within= the bit > stream of a Serial Digital Interface (SDI), such as the standard definiti= on > (SD) Serial Digital Interface, the 1.5 Gb/s Serial Digital Interface for > high definition (HD) television applications, or the 3 Gb/s Signal/Data > Serial Interface (SMPTE ST 259 [ST259], SMPTE ST 292-1 [ST292], SMPTE ST > 424 [ST424]).=E2=80=9D > > Being a bit clearer as you suggested, and also adding 3G SDI. That works for me! Spencer --001a114934dc5d173e0559b79b96 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Thomas,

On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 10:13 AM, Thomas Edwards <Thomas.E= dwards@fox.com> wrote:
Than= ks Spencer, I will edit this paragraph to:

=E2=80=9CANC is generally associated with the carriage of metadata within t= he bit stream of a Serial Digital Interface (SDI), such as the standard def= inition (SD) Serial Digital Interface, the 1.5 Gb/s Serial Digital Interfac= e for high definition (HD) television applications, or the 3 Gb/s Signal/Da= ta Serial Interface (SMPTE ST 259 [ST259], SMPTE ST 292-1 [ST292], SMPTE ST= 424 [ST424]).=E2=80=9D

Being a bit clearer as you suggested, and also adding 3G SDI.
<= div>
That works for me!

Spencer=C2= =A0
--001a114934dc5d173e0559b79b96-- From nobody Fri Sep 22 07:48:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E13213447D; Fri, 22 Sep 2017 07:48:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.621 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.621 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=foxgroupinc.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eCAfpPZA8GBq; Fri, 22 Sep 2017 07:48:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00195501.pphosted.com (mx0b-00195501.pphosted.com [67.231.157.160]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3108F1342CC; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BN3PR05MB2659; H:BN3PR05MB2657.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: fox.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <0913B24BB340D94790FBC1A1B11E59AC@namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: fox.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 22 Sep 2017 14:48:27.6170 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: de99ade3-81db-4070-ae0d-3c1562041b30 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN3PR05MB2659 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-09-22_05:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1709220207 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2017 14:48:36 -0000 SXMgdGhlcmUgYW4gdW5kZXJzdGFuZGluZyB0aGF0IEZJRCBncm91cGVkIG9iamVjdHMgYXJlIHRv IGJlIHByZXNlbnRlZCBpbiB0aW1lIHN5bmNocm9uaXplZCBmYXNoaW9uPw0KDQooSXQgbWlnaHQg bm90IG1hdHRlciAtIGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9ucyBhcmUgbGlrZWx5IHRvIHN5bmNocm9uaXplIHBy ZXNlbnRhdGlvbiBvZiB0aGUgRklEIGdyb3VwZWQgc3RyZWFtZWQgYW55d2F5IGJhc2VkIG9uIFJU UCB0aW1lc3RhbXBzIGFuZCBSRkMgNzI3MywgUlRQIENsb2NrIFNvdXJjZSBTaWduYWxsaW5nKS4N Cg0KVGhhbmtzIQ0KDQotVGhvbWFzDQoNCk9uIDkvMjEvMTcsIDg6MjIgQU0sICJBZGFtIFJvYWNo IiA8YWRhbUBub3N0cnVtLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQoNCiAgICBPbiA5LzIwLzE3IDA4OjMxLCBUaG9t YXMgRWR3YXJkcyB3cm90ZToNCiAgICA+IEFkYW0sDQogICAgPg0KICAgID4gVGhhbmtzIGZvciB5 b3VyIERJU0NVU1Mgb24gdGhlIEFuY2lsbGFyeSBSVFAgSS1ELiAgSSB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIHlvdXIg Y29uY2VybiBhYm91dCB0aGUgZGlmZmVyZW5jZSBiZXR3ZWVuIFJUUCBzdHJlYW1zIHRoYXQgYXJl IHNpbXBseSBzeW5jaHJvbml6ZWQgdXNpbmcg4oCcTFPigJ0gdmVyc3VzIFJUUCBzdHJlYW1zIHRo YXQgYWxzbyBoYXZlIGFuIGludGltYXRlIHJlbGF0aW9uc2hpcCAoc3VjaCBhcyBiZWluZyBwYXJ0 IG9mIHRoZSBzYW1lIOKAnG094oCdIG1lZGlhIHNlY3Rpb24pLg0KICAgID4NCiAgICA+IFRoZSBj aGFsbGVuZ2UgaXMgdGhhdCB0aGUgdXNlIGNhc2Ugb2YgdGhlIEFuY2lsbGFyeSBJLUQgd2l0aGlu IHRoZSBTTVBURSBTVCAyMTEwIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZSB3b3VsZCBnZW5lcmFsbHkgcmVxdWlyZSBz ZXBhcmF0ZSBuZXR3b3JrIGRlc3RpbmF0aW9uIGFkZHJlc3NlcyBmb3IgdGhlIGRpZmZlcmVudCBl bGVtZW50cyAodmlkZW8sIGF1ZGlvLCBhbmNpbGxhcnkgZGF0YSkgc28gdGhleSBjYW4gYmUgZmxl eGlibHkgY29tcG9zZWQgd2l0aGluIGJyb2FkY2FzdCBwbGFudHMgYXQgdGhlIG5ldHdvcmsgbGV2 ZWwuICBZb3VyIGFsdGVybmF0aXZlIFNEUCBleGFtcGxlIGFwcGVhcnMgdG8gcGxhY2UgYm90aCB0 aGUgdmlkZW8gYW5kIHRoZSBhbmNpbGxhcnkgZGF0YSBvbnRvIHRoZSBzYW1lIGRlc3RpbmF0aW9u IGFkZHJlc3MgKGh0dHBzOi8vdXJsZGVmZW5zZS5wcm9vZnBvaW50LmNvbS92Mi91cmw/dT1odHRw LTNBX18yMzMuMjUyLjAuMSZkPUR3SURhUSZjPXV3NlRMdTRod2hIZGlHSk9nd2NXRDRBaktReDZ6 dkZjR0VzYmZpWTktRUkmcj1sZWtOT09NNW5vVjYxenJQSDNyd1B5aHRObkxMV29MRUhnZDBxdVF4 bHk4Jm09SEVTcjJ0OUdwaEoxREctVkM1QkJFNWJxQ3VGcTA4NW9sSW56cUt0cXA0ayZzPUFtaXVV UmkxWGt1Yk5iQkUyRG1MZWQ3emRFc1pWNnV0Y0hqaEhTWFA2bHMmZT0gKS4gIElzIHRoZXJlIGFu IGFwcHJvcHJpYXRlIFNEUCBtZWNoYW5pc20gdG8gY29tbXVuaWNhdGUgdGhlIGludGltYXRlIHJl bGF0aW9uc2hpcCBiZXR3ZWVuIHRoZSBSVFAgc3RyZWFtcywgYnV0IGFsc28gaGF2ZSB0aGVtIHRy YW5zbWl0dGVkIG9uIHNlcGFyYXRlIGRlc3RpbmF0aW9uIElQIGFkZHJlc3NlcyAoYW5kIHN5bmNo cm9uaXplZCk/DQogICAgDQogICAgV2l0aCB0aGF0IHJlcXVpcmVtZW50LCBJIHRoaW5rIEFsaSdz IHN1Z2dlc3Rpb24gaXMgdGhlIHJpZ2h0IG9uZTogdGhlIA0KICAgIGdyb3VwaW5nIHlvdSB3YW50 IHRvIHVzZSB0byBiaW5kIHRoZXNlIHRvZ2V0aGVyIGlzIEZJRC4gSSBiZWxpZXZlIHRoYXQgDQog ICAgc2ltcGx5IHJlcGxhY2luZyAiTFMiIHdpdGggIkZJRCIgaW4gdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50IHdvdWxk IGJlIGFkZXF1YXRlIA0KICAgIChpLmUuLCBJIGRvbid0IHRoaW5rIHRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQgbmVl ZHMgYSB0cmVhdG1lbnQgb2YgTFMpLiBJdCBpcyANCiAgICBwcm9iYWJseSBhbHNvIHdvcnRoIG1l bnRpb25pbmcgaW4gdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50IHRoYXQgdGhlIG90aGVyIGFwcHJvYWNoIA0KICAgIChp LmUuLCBpbmNsdWRpbmcgYm90aCB0aGUgc21wdGUyOTEgZm9ybWF0IGFuZCB0aGUgbWFpbiB2aWRl byBjb2RlYyANCiAgICBmb3JtYXQgaW4gdGhlIHNhbWUgc2Vzc2lvbikgaXMgX3ZhbGlkXywgYnV0 IHRoYXQgdXNpbmcgZGlmZmVyZW50IElQIA0KICAgIGFkZHJlc3NlcyBpcyBmcmVxdWVudGx5IG5l Y2Vzc2FyeSwgYW5kIEZJRCBpcyB0aGUgbWVjaGFuaXNtIHVzZWQgdG8gZG8gc28uDQogICAgDQog ICAgVGhhbmtzIQ0KICAgIA0KICAgIC9hDQogICAgDQoNCg== From nobody Fri Sep 22 07:52:31 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BB9813447F; 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Fri, 22 Sep 2017 07:52:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.37.103 with HTTP; Fri, 22 Sep 2017 07:52:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <863974D7-E112-4794-AD4D-C39C99BD40C9@foxeg.com> References: <150285025423.12514.106587665039751833.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3B259563-1075-4C41-A832-D7633C39173B@foxeg.com> <61440eb5-32c3-3696-be38-8dc7c4eaf72f@nostrum.com> <863974D7-E112-4794-AD4D-C39C99BD40C9@foxeg.com> From: "Ali C. Begen" Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2017 17:52:25 +0300 Message-ID: To: Thomas Edwards Cc: Adam Roach , The IESG , "payload-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary@ietf.org" , "payload@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2017 14:52:29 -0000 FID grouping does not imply synchronization. But obviously the media sink for example can use RTP timestamps, sender reports, etc. to achieve synchronization if needed. On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 5:48 PM, Thomas Edwards wr= ote: > Is there an understanding that FID grouped objects are to be presented in= time synchronized fashion? > > (It might not matter - implementations are likely to synchronize presenta= tion of the FID grouped streamed anyway based on RTP timestamps and RFC 727= 3, RTP Clock Source Signalling). > > Thanks! > > -Thomas > > On 9/21/17, 8:22 AM, "Adam Roach" wrote: > > On 9/20/17 08:31, Thomas Edwards wrote: > > Adam, > > > > Thanks for your DISCUSS on the Ancillary RTP I-D. I understand you= r concern about the difference between RTP streams that are simply synchron= ized using =E2=80=9CLS=E2=80=9D versus RTP streams that also have an intima= te relationship (such as being part of the same =E2=80=9Cm=3D=E2=80=9D medi= a section). > > > > The challenge is that the use case of the Ancillary I-D within the = SMPTE ST 2110 architecture would generally require separate network destina= tion addresses for the different elements (video, audio, ancillary data) so= they can be flexibly composed within broadcast plants at the network level= . Your alternative SDP example appears to place both the video and the anc= illary data onto the same destination address (https://urldefense.proofpoin= t.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__233.252.0.1&d=3DDwIDaQ&c=3Duw6TLu4hwhHdiGJOgwcWD4= AjKQx6zvFcGEsbfiY9-EI&r=3DlekNOOM5noV61zrPH3rwPyhtNnLLWoLEHgd0quQxly8&m=3DH= ESr2t9GphJ1DG-VC5BBE5bqCuFq085olInzqKtqp4k&s=3DAmiuURi1XkubNbBE2DmLed7zdEsZ= V6utcHjhHSXP6ls&e=3D ). Is there an appropriate SDP mechanism to communica= te the intimate relationship between the RTP streams, but also have them tr= ansmitted on separate destination IP addresses (and synchronized)? > > With that requirement, I think Ali's suggestion is the right one: the > grouping you want to use to bind these together is FID. I believe tha= t > simply replacing "LS" with "FID" in the document would be adequate > (i.e., I don't think this document needs a treatment of LS). It is > probably also worth mentioning in the document that the other approac= h > (i.e., including both the smpte291 format and the main video codec > format in the same session) is _valid_, but that using different IP > addresses is frequently necessary, and FID is the mechanism used to d= o so. > > Thanks! > > /a > > From nobody Fri Sep 22 08:47:32 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 793051344F1; Fri, 22 Sep 2017 08:47:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.88 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.88 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dqMsd7jLf_Dd; Fri, 22 Sep 2017 08:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 916111344EE; Fri, 22 Sep 2017 08:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Svantevit.local (99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id v8MFlNKb049249 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 22 Sep 2017 10:47:24 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228] claimed to be Svantevit.local To: Thomas Edwards , The IESG Cc: "payload-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary@ietf.org" , "payload@ietf.org" , "acbegen@gmail.com" References: <150285025423.12514.106587665039751833.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3B259563-1075-4C41-A832-D7633C39173B@foxeg.com> <61440eb5-32c3-3696-be38-8dc7c4eaf72f@nostrum.com> <863974D7-E112-4794-AD4D-C39C99BD40C9@foxeg.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2017 10:47:18 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <863974D7-E112-4794-AD4D-C39C99BD40C9@foxeg.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2017 15:47:31 -0000 On 9/22/17 9:48 AM, Thomas Edwards wrote: > Is there an understanding that FID grouped objects are to be presented in time synchronized fashion? > > (It might not matter - implementations are likely to synchronize presentation of the FID grouped streamed anyway based on RTP timestamps and RFC 7273, RTP Clock Source Signalling). Given the relationship between the kinds of data, I would think that synchronization would be implicit. I'm not opposed to saying that you put things in FID groups and LS groups, but it seems kind of like unnecessary noise. /a From nobody Sat Sep 23 03:20:29 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D7A9133341; Sat, 23 Sep 2017 03:20:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.621 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.621 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=foxgroupinc.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TV691DNLK9sc; Sat, 23 Sep 2017 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b=qiyy1JM3DBJzjt64ejt/1yDf6WO8JmYH1Mlk0d2anDOUMKq8YO/UhxNhg6KjHo00TYgkFoCV4c9YpIyn7IlfYo4tKJEfc4TD2j1B/Ud2+EU/vlX/z0wqiE+7xJwR4RJQ5P7vb1cqSx43sMeJZKRBcROIYwpKqVfrV7q0IKMOmnE= Received: from BN3PR05MB2657.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.166.72.21) by BN3PR05MB2659.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.166.72.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P256) id 15.20.77.5; Sat, 23 Sep 2017 10:20:20 +0000 Received: from BN3PR05MB2657.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.166.72.21]) by BN3PR05MB2657.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.166.72.21]) with mapi id 15.20.0077.011; Sat, 23 Sep 2017 10:20:20 +0000 From: Thomas Edwards To: Warren Kumari , The IESG CC: "payload-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary@ietf.org" , "payload@ietf.org" , "acbegen@gmail.com" Thread-Topic: [payload] Warren Kumari's No Objection on draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-10: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHTEEsVqxb+E3f+LUK0MtUPq9dDiaLCFTsA Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2017 10:20:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: <150219927387.12412.13816543900315456551.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <150219927387.12412.13816543900315456551.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.25.0.170815 x-originating-ip: [90.216.150.198] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BN3PR05MB2659; 20:Bj4RcfU5j4QdBVaaTJ9so4VMAAv/SLLeHUjmdv2KuvYqidGsYTvc4HSybfMjJt7eRYy9UJJE7oa5CyEwYeobzET6eVLoyZsA1NOHNM583g7HlKoOFmxKbXJnN/GkNJV5yCPtBZpVBKXdkq4x70j0Qui4j+DmX0kF6RaZpG662kAcmAIivhSi7VPmzrd15wpgVF0OvELWPTxO9ww9AFv9pd0bPdUj6gFAXFaEpDjgvhb5zMVV09ZoOpVp9cs29R/e x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SSOS; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: d40df735-4b56-48c6-41cc-08d5026cb1ec x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; 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Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: fox.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Sep 2017 10:20:20.5848 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: de99ade3-81db-4070-ae0d-3c1562041b30 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN3PR05MB2659 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-09-23_03:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1709230163 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] Warren Kumari's No Objection on draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-10: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2017 10:20:29 -0000 V2FycmVuLA0KDQpUaGFua3MgZm9yIHlvdXIgY29tbWVudHMgb24gZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1wYXlsb2Fk LXJ0cC1hbmNpbGxhcnkuDQoNCkkgd2FudCB0byBiZSBzdXJlIHRoYXQgSSBhZGRyZXNzIHRoZSBP cHNEaXIgcmV2aWV3IChodHRwczovL2RhdGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL2RvYy9yZXZpZXctaWV0 Zi1wYXlsb2FkLXJ0cC1hbmNpbGxhcnktMDYtb3BzZGlyLWxjLWJyb3dubGVlLTIwMTYtMTEtMDMv KSAgU29tZWhvdywgSSB0aGluayBJIG1pc3NlZCB0aGlzIGluIHRoZSAtMDYgdmVyc2lvbiwgc29y cnkhDQoNCjEpIOKAnEluIHNlY3Rpb24gMi4xLCB0aGUgcGhyYXNlICdzdGFydCBvZiBhY3RpdmUg dmlkZW8gKFNBViknIGlzIHVzZWQgdG8NCmRlZmluZSBTQVYuICBBIGxpdHRsZSBtb3JlIGV4cGxh bmF0aW9uIG9mIFNBViB3b3VsZCBoZWxwIHJlYWRlcnMNCndobyBhcmUgdW5mYW1pbGlhciB3aXRo IHZpZGVvIGVuY29kaW5nLuKAnQ0KDQpTdGFydCBvZiBhY3RpdmUgdmlkZW8gKFNBVikgaXMgYSBk aWdpdGFsIHN5bmNocm9uaXppbmcgc2VxdWVuY2UgcHJlc2VudCBpbiBTREkgaW50ZXJmYWNlcyB0 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<5663202701A3E340A985C98CD696C7F9@namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: fox.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 27 Sep 2017 01:13:29.7993 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: de99ade3-81db-4070-ae0d-3c1562041b30 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN3PR05MB2659 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-09-26_10:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1709270015 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org 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SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B19Jrjev7bSa; Wed, 27 Sep 2017 04:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE86D13498B; Wed, 27 Sep 2017 04:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO LHREML710-CAH.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DWJ14646; Wed, 27 Sep 2017 11:07:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMM405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.213) by LHREML710-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.33) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Wed, 27 Sep 2017 12:07:21 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.187]) by DGGEMM405-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.213]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Wed, 27 Sep 2017 19:07:01 +0800 From: Roni Even To: Thomas Edwards , Adam Roach , The IESG CC: "payload-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary@ietf.org" , "payload@ietf.org" , "acbegen@gmail.com" Thread-Topic: Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHTFjbD5uxO79354kmKPbq9ZGEoqKK9h+8AgAIma4CAAROegIAAhb4AgAZyKgCAARPlsA== Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2017 11:07:01 +0000 Message-ID: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD80FC21@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: <150285025423.12514.106587665039751833.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3B259563-1075-4C41-A832-D7633C39173B@foxeg.com> <61440eb5-32c3-3696-be38-8dc7c4eaf72f@nostrum.com> <863974D7-E112-4794-AD4D-C39C99BD40C9@foxeg.com> <0C6F1364-DAB5-4AA3-8450-84771EF0ED1E@foxeg.com> In-Reply-To: <0C6F1364-DAB5-4AA3-8450-84771EF0ED1E@foxeg.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.200.202.141] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090206.59CB866E.0039, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.3.187, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: f750718b734afeec8e62afd780ca3f05 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2017 11:07:33 -0000 SGksDQpJIGFncmVlIHRoYXQgTFMgaXMgYmV0dGVyIGZpdCBmb3IgQU5DDQoNCkFzIGZvciBBZGFt J3MgZXhhbXBsZSBpdCBpcyBhbGxvd2VkIGJ5IFJGQzU4ODggdG8gc3BlY2lmeQ0KICAgICAgICBh 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"draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary@ietf.org" , "payload@ietf.org" , "acbegen@gmail.com" Thread-Topic: Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHTFjbD5uxO79354kmKPbq9ZGEoqKK9h+8AgAIma4CAAROegIAAhb4AgAZyKgCAARPlsP//4DOA Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2017 15:47:09 +0000 Message-ID: References: <150285025423.12514.106587665039751833.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3B259563-1075-4C41-A832-D7633C39173B@foxeg.com> <61440eb5-32c3-3696-be38-8dc7c4eaf72f@nostrum.com> <863974D7-E112-4794-AD4D-C39C99BD40C9@foxeg.com> <0C6F1364-DAB5-4AA3-8450-84771EF0ED1E@foxeg.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD80FC21@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD80FC21@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.25.0.170815 x-originating-ip: [76.171.122.204] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BN3PR05MB2658; 20:KrXbvhd5LTaeU/TAVwBRWzF3KW17G8GYp62nqXSG84w6vZ2TtSh9MBVnb0nXfE//g8lbmK6wvtNrN7xzbHkg3xbcQrF80BlHTJLTylY7U54IUiDzrGc5kFHq/GpR/BU4i+9OX0yOYNKeOyrpImic61BoLTkl/1lfF1FX+/w18iqPtpjAnLqKd8ka5UUQQjNSke3bXqyfSEIn+KATfN/bx7Kesp31Z5aJNSzc6G5YBap7jq4qBPMle+qWGjms+/tQ x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SSOS; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: d522ee5e-ea7e-4129-9f17-08d505bf03a9 x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(22001)(2017030254152)(48565401081)(2017052603199)(201703131423075)(201703031133081)(201702281549075); SRVR:BN3PR05MB2658; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BN3PR05MB2658: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(278428928389397)(50582790962513)(177823376758907)(10436049006162); x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; 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SFS:(10009020)(6009001)(376002)(346002)(39860400002)(13464003)(199003)(51914003)(24454002)(189002)(377454003)(39060400002)(6116002)(83716003)(72206003)(3660700001)(102836003)(966005)(2906002)(3846002)(3280700002)(6246003)(9686003)(53546010)(83506001)(6512007)(229853002)(50986999)(54356999)(5660300001)(76176999)(6306002)(77096006)(36756003)(2950100002)(6506006)(4326008)(6486002)(6436002)(189998001)(14454004)(99286003)(230783001)(68736007)(54906003)(58126008)(8676002)(2900100001)(106356001)(25786009)(66066001)(53936002)(305945005)(81156014)(316002)(101416001)(8936002)(97736004)(105586002)(478600001)(110136005)(81166006)(7736002)(33656002)(93886005)(82746002)(575784001)(86362001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BN3PR05MB2658; H:BN3PR05MB2657.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: fox.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: fox.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 27 Sep 2017 15:47:09.8633 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: de99ade3-81db-4070-ae0d-3c1562041b30 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN3PR05MB2658 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-09-27_04:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1709270220 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: 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LTMxMC0zNjktNjY5Ng0KICAgIA0KICAgID4gMTAyMDEgVyBQaWNvIEJsdmQNCiAgICANCiAgICA+ IExvcyBBbmdlbGVzLCBDQSA5MDAzNQ0KICAgIA0KICAgID4gDQogICAgDQogICAgPiANCiAgICAN CiAgICA+IA0KICAgIA0KICAgID4gDQogICAgDQogICAgDQogICAgDQogICAgDQoNCg== From nobody Thu Sep 28 16:37:41 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17BFC13449B; Thu, 28 Sep 2017 16:37:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=foxgroupinc.onmicrosoft.com Received: from 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draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-10: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHTFCEjkTSiQamr10Sql+5aN6P0v6LKx+GA Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2017 23:37:28 +0000 Message-ID: <7452D03F-F4CA-48EE-B3AB-A41CC2F868F6@foxeg.com> References: <150262106405.26459.9850568812662383617.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <150262106405.26459.9850568812662383617.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.25.0.170815 x-originating-ip: [216.205.246.241] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BN3PR05MB2660; 20:qYAq59+91io1AwpQcEJr5/42uVb9y3OQO0mYE5FCpGc3Qg56PyZUz1KdTyVBk6VP3EksSUBDwMP+lXnaOBW2RMsr/A70RgI1Yq/58USoIcZRfUHRG4rawTaLrHT7Y3RlSefZK1aPzI1wfwrqYUzB5nU1LF0LbEZ5THLieiB9EnBGNPKBmfck3QpxWjT1s05BcnR2T9/ALwWNmPYK8UNcSbt25Cahk0iO7I3FUPtbvFOsBT4OEdctkMVYViQI4doK x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SSOS; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 39a890f9-7e66-4a25-a477-08d506c9e1f3 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H:BN3PR05MB2657.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: fox.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: fox.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Sep 2017 23:37:29.0108 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: de99ade3-81db-4070-ae0d-3c1562041b30 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN3PR05MB2660 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-09-28_08:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1709280347 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] Alexey Melnikov's No Objection on draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-10: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2017 23:37:40 -0000 QWxleGV5LA0KDQpUaGFua3MgZm9yIHlvdXIgY29tbWVudCBvbiB0aGUgZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1wYXls b2FkLXJ0cC1hbmNpbGxhcnktMTAuDQoNCkkgd2lsbCBhZGQgdGhlIHJlZmVyZW5jZTog4oCcVGhl IEFCTkYgZGVzY3JpcHRpb24gb2YgdGhlIERJRF9TRElEIHBhcmFtZXRlciBpcyBkZXNjcmliZWQg aW4gU2VjdGlvbiA0IG9mIFt0aGlzIFJGQ13igJ0gdG8gdGhlIFNlY3Rpb24gMy4xIOKAnE1lZGlh IFR5cGUgRGVmaW5pdGlvbuKAnS4NCg0KLVRob21hcw0KDQotLSANClRob21hcyBFZHdhcmRzDQpG T1ggTmV0d29ya3MgRW5naW5lZXJpbmcgJiBPcGVyYXRpb25zDQpWUCBFbmdpbmVlcmluZyAmIERl 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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: ben@nostrum.com, ali.begen@networked.media, payload-chairs@ietf.org, payload@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.63.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150666648552.14224.1805258417657958089.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2017 23:28:05 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [payload] payload - Not having a session at IETF 100 X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 06:28:06 -0000 Ali Begen, a chair of the payload working group, indicated that the payload working group does not plan to hold a session at IETF 100. This message was generated and sent by the IETF Meeting Session Request Tool. From nobody Fri Sep 29 14:00:29 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94D961342F1; Fri, 29 Sep 2017 14:00:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.88 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.88 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h3T1PeqbSLFK; Fri, 29 Sep 2017 14:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D4171342EF; Fri, 29 Sep 2017 14:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Svantevit.local (99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id v8TL07ao052265 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 29 Sep 2017 16:00:08 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228] claimed to be Svantevit.local To: Thomas Edwards , The IESG Cc: "payload-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary@ietf.org" , "payload@ietf.org" , "acbegen@gmail.com" References: <150285025423.12514.106587665039751833.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3B259563-1075-4C41-A832-D7633C39173B@foxeg.com> <61440eb5-32c3-3696-be38-8dc7c4eaf72f@nostrum.com> <863974D7-E112-4794-AD4D-C39C99BD40C9@foxeg.com> <0C6F1364-DAB5-4AA3-8450-84771EF0ED1E@foxeg.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 16:00:02 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0C6F1364-DAB5-4AA3-8450-84771EF0ED1E@foxeg.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 21:00:23 -0000 On 9/26/17 8:13 PM, Thomas Edwards wrote: > Regarding draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-10, on further thought I believe that FID grouping is NOT appropriate for Section 4.1 “Grouping ANC Streams with other Media Streams”. > > RFC 5888 Section 8.4. (“FID Semantics”) states: > > “It is assumed that the application uses only one codec at a time to encode the media produced. This codec MAY change dynamically during the session, but at any particular moment, only one codec is in use.” > > RFC 5888 Section 8.5.1 states: > > “FID semantics are useful when the application only uses one codec at a time. An application that encodes the same media using different codecs simultaneously MUST NOT use FID to group those media lines.” > > When we have one video stream and one ancillary data stream, senders are not switching between codecs. FID really sounds to me like a situation where you have one media stream, but senders could send that stream one of multiple codecs, but not at the same time. In this case, where you have data and meta-data, it's arguably two different codecs; and, since they don't represent the same data, you're encoding with one codec or the other, based on whether you're sending video data or meta-data. From that perspective, I don't see the use of FID as being outside the spirit of what is intended. That said, if the WG agrees with your evaluation that FID isn't quite the right fit, I'm happy for y'all to come up with some alternate solution... > Compare with RFC 5888 Section 7: > > “Note that LS semantics apply not only to a video stream that has to be synchronized with an audio stream; the playout of two streams of the same type can be synchronized as well.” > > Synchronized presentation to the user of an audio, video, and of course ancillary data flow is generally what we need for production television workflows. > > draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-10 Section 4.1 has the example: > > v=0 > o=Al 123456 11 IN IP4 host.example.com > s=Professional Networked Media Test > i=A test of synchronized video and ANC data > t=0 0 > a=group:LS V1 M1 > m=video 50000 RTP/AVP 96 > c=IN IP4 233.252.0.1/255 > a=rtpmap:96 raw/90000 > a=fmtp:96 sampling=YCbCr-4:2:2; width=1280; height=720; depth=10 > a=mid:V1 > m=video 50010 RTP/AVP 97 > c=IN IP4 233.252.0.2/255 > a=rtpmap:97 smpte291/90000 > a=fmtp:97 DID_SDID={0x61,0x02};DID_SDID={0x41,0x05} > a=mid:M1 > > As some have pointed out, RTP timestamps and RTCP provide inherent synchronization between “m” lines, but of course as RFC 5888 Section 1 says without grouping: “When a session description contains more than one "m" line, SDP does not provide any means to express a particular relationship between two or more of them.” “LS” grouping makes it pretty clear that these streams are intended for synchronized presentation. > > An alternative to “LS” grouping is to drop all grouping in the example, and be unclear about what these “m” lines are doing together in the same file: > > v=0 > o=Al 123456 11 IN IP4 host.example.com > s=Professional Networked Media Test > i=A test of synchronized video and ANC data > t=0 0 > m=video 50000 RTP/AVP 96 > c=IN IP4 233.252.0.1/255 > a=rtpmap:96 raw/90000 > a=fmtp:96 sampling=YCbCr-4:2:2; width=1280; height=720; depth=10 > m=video 50010 RTP/AVP 97 > c=IN IP4 233.252.0.2/255 > a=rtpmap:97 smpte291/90000 > a=fmtp:97 DID_SDID={0x61,0x02};DID_SDID={0x41,0x05} > > But I’m still more comfortable with keeping the “LS” grouping in the example unless there are objections. ...as long as that solution isn't misusing LS. there's really no way to construe LS to mean the kind of grouping you intend here. If you don't want to use FID, I'd propose that you could add a new metadata group type (a=group:META video ancillary) that means exactly what you intend here. Importantly, I think that "dropping all grouping" would not be okay. > This brings us to the main point of Adam Roach’s DISCUSS item, how do you provide multi-level hierarchical grouping in SDP. Imagine a group of (a group of video and ancillary data) and (a group of video and ancillary data). There actually is a case of this in production television, the multiviewer (e.g. see https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/multiview). Under what I propose, this would be: a=group:LS video1 video2 a=group:FID video1 ancillary1 a=group:FID video2 ancillary2 Or, if you want to use a new META instead of re-using FID: a=group:LS video1 video2 a=group:META video1 ancillary1 a=group:META video2 ancillary2 > Perhaps this issue needs to be brought up in Multiparty Multimedia Session Control (mmusic) WG, but I’m not sure that it is wise to hold up the ANC RTP Payload over this. Let's see if we can find a straightforward path to completion based on what I say above. /a From nobody Fri Sep 29 15:33:41 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietf.org Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA8EF1201F8; Fri, 29 Sep 2017 15:33:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: payload@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.63.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150672441078.3200.18229834081140775551@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 15:33:30 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-11.txt X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 22:33:31 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Payloads WG of the IETF. Title : RTP Payload for SMPTE ST 291-1 Ancillary Data Author : Thomas G. Edwards Filename : draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-11.txt Pages : 19 Date : 2017-09-29 Abstract: This memo describes a real-time transport protocol (RTP) payload format for the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers (SMPTE) Ancillary data, as defined by SMPTE ST 291-1. SMPTE Ancillary data is generally used along with professional video formats to carry a range of ancillary data types, including time code, Closed Captioning, and the Active Format Description (AFD). The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-11 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-11 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-11 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sat Sep 30 23:39:26 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA4F013447E; Sat, 30 Sep 2017 23:39:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jDaEvdtg4a4E; Sat, 30 Sep 2017 23:39:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0EC3C13214D; Sat, 30 Sep 2017 23:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DWP44883; Sun, 01 Oct 2017 06:39:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMM406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.214) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Sun, 1 Oct 2017 07:39:16 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.187]) by DGGEMM406-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.214]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Sun, 1 Oct 2017 14:39:12 +0800 From: Roni Even To: Adam Roach , Thomas Edwards CC: "payload-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary@ietf.org" , "payload@ietf.org" , "acbegen@gmail.com" Thread-Topic: [payload] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHTOWX7695CdoJwpEOSYGrm1RZaW6LOiZjw Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2017 06:39:11 +0000 Message-ID: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8106C5@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: <150285025423.12514.106587665039751833.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3B259563-1075-4C41-A832-D7633C39173B@foxeg.com> <61440eb5-32c3-3696-be38-8dc7c4eaf72f@nostrum.com> <863974D7-E112-4794-AD4D-C39C99BD40C9@foxeg.com> <0C6F1364-DAB5-4AA3-8450-84771EF0ED1E@foxeg.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.200.202.141] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020204.59D08D95.00C0, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.3.187, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: d30f9eee019546dd46b8f9aefb3bfca2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ancillary-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2017 06:39:24 -0000 SGkgQWRhbSwNCg0KVGhpcyBpcyB0aGUgZGVmaW5pdGlvbiBvZiBMUyBmcm9tIFJGQzU4ODggc2Vj dGlvbiA3DQoNCg0KTGlwIFN5bmNocm9uaXphdGlvbiAoTFMpDQoNCiAgIEFuIGFwcGxpY2F0aW9u IHRoYXQgcmVjZWl2ZXMgYSBzZXNzaW9uIGRlc2NyaXB0aW9uIHRoYXQgY29udGFpbnMgIm0iDQog ICBsaW5lcyB0aGF0IGFyZSBncm91cGVkIHRvZ2V0aGVyIHVzaW5nIExTIHNlbWFudGljcyBNVVNU IHN5bmNocm9uaXplDQogICB0aGUgcGxheW91dCBvZiB0aGUgY29ycmVzcG9uZGluZyBtZWRpYSBz dHJlYW1zLiAgTm90ZSB0aGF0IExTDQogICBzZW1hbnRpY3MgYXBwbHkgbm90IG9ubHkgdG8gYSB2 aWRlbyBzdHJlYW0gdGhhdCBoYXMgdG8gYmUNCiAgIHN5bmNocm9uaXplZCB3aXRoIGFuIGF1ZGlv IHN0cmVhbTsgdGhlIHBsYXlvdXQgb2YgdHdvIHN0cmVhbXMgb2YgdGhlDQogICBzYW1lIHR5cGUg Y2FuIGJlIHN5bmNocm9uaXplZCBhcyB3ZWxsLg0KDQogICBGb3IgUlRQIHN0cmVhbXMsIHN5bmNo 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