From nobody Thu May 1 04:09:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8CB31A6F1F for ; Thu, 1 May 2014 04:08:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 84Wfiy3mwKA3 for ; Thu, 1 May 2014 04:08:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp001.apm-internet.net (smtp001.apm-internet.net [85.119.248.220]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5F021A075F for ; Thu, 1 May 2014 04:08:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 15618 invoked from network); 1 May 2014 11:08:48 -0000 X-AV-Scan: clean X-APM-Authkey: 83769 6196 Received: from unknown (HELO zimbra003.verygoodemail.com) (85.119.248.218) by smtp001.apm-internet.net with SMTP; 1 May 2014 11:08:48 -0000 Received: from zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 634A618A0B38; Thu, 1 May 2014 12:08:48 +0100 (BST) Received: from limit.westhawk.co.uk (unknown [192.67.4.33]) by zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 28FF418A03F9; Thu, 1 May 2014 12:08:48 +0100 (BST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Tim Panton In-Reply-To: <4A607E3C-B0A3-450E-863C-8E71C8EFC191@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 1 May 2014 12:08:41 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <28C7190C-B47A-4C31-9EA4-F55AD386507F@phonefromhere.com> References: <5357B281.1030900@alvestrand.no> <4A607E3C-B0A3-450E-863C-8E71C8EFC191@cisco.com> To: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/FmY17o4dG3lxOKO1y2179Tksnsk Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Pictures of congestion control on the Internet - which is more realistic? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 May 2014 11:08:54 -0000 On 30 Apr 2014, at 22:21, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) = wrote: >=20 > On Apr 23, 2014, at 9:02 AM, Roman Shpount wrote: >=20 >> I would say that some video end points have congestion back off. = Almost all audio end points have none. Based on this, most UDP endpoints = do not deal well with congestion. >=20 > Well =85 I sort of agree with you and Wenger and sort of don=92t. They = have an upper layer congestion control. Basically when the congestion = gets bad, the humans on both ends hang up the call and go call each = other on their cell phones.=20 That's probably true right now, especially in the SIP world largely = because it is linked to and modelled on the fixed bandwidth = expectations of ISDN. In selecting Opus we have mandated an audio codec that explicitly = supports dynamic bandwidth changes and is sufficiently tolerant of dropped packets to allow congestion control to function without the = user necessarily hearing the few dropped packets. Lets not give up on this. It is also worth noting that cell phones can do this already, selecting = the AMR mode according to the link capacity - so there is a = proof-by-example :-) Tim. >=20 Tim Panton - Web/VoIP consultant and implementor www.westhawk.co.uk From nobody Thu May 1 04:20:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC3091A6F21 for ; Thu, 1 May 2014 04:19:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3XvVpoiimMKR for ; Thu, 1 May 2014 04:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp002.apm-internet.net (smtp002-out2.apm-internet.net [85.119.248.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FF4F1A075F for ; Thu, 1 May 2014 04:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 44101 invoked from network); 1 May 2014 11:19:25 -0000 X-AV-Scan: clean X-APM-Authkey: 83769 6463 Received: from unknown (HELO zimbra003.verygoodemail.com) (85.119.248.218) by smtp002.apm-internet.net with SMTP; 1 May 2014 11:19:25 -0000 Received: from zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F017C18A0B4E for ; Thu, 1 May 2014 12:19:24 +0100 (BST) Received: from limit.westhawk.co.uk (unknown [192.67.4.33]) by zimbra003.verygoodemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CA1CF18A0688 for ; Thu, 1 May 2014 12:19:24 +0100 (BST) From: Tim Panton Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9FFE4D57-1B15-42F1-BFE7-276AFC7AD232@phonefromhere.com> Date: Thu, 1 May 2014 12:19:18 +0100 To: rtcweb@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/dDxspSIjiBwU7MVkzjDb4sd9A5Q Subject: [rtcweb] DCEP draft spec differences. X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 May 2014 11:19:28 -0000 I see that the proposed draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-03.txt expects = an ACK in response to an OPEN of a data channel. draft-jesup-rtcweb-data-protocol-04.txt - which appears to be what is = implemented in Chrome does not expect an ACK - and seems=20 to ABORT when it gets one. Assuming I haven't mis(read/implemented) something.... How do we propose to handle the transition between the 2 incompatible = spec revisions ? Tim.= From nobody Thu May 1 11:04:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08B431A701A for ; Thu, 1 May 2014 11:04:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wnhKAqqoEP_f for ; Thu, 1 May 2014 11:04:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f170.google.com (mail-wi0-f170.google.com [209.85.212.170]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B95771A7018 for ; Thu, 1 May 2014 11:04:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f170.google.com with SMTP id f8so1157646wiw.1 for ; Thu, 01 May 2014 11:04:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=sLKzOBr2zRuaPp2IeB7maQzY1MdOiNg3gb1nn+zeGVA=; b=Nr9jQN63wUTrPCWLqA2mO9WNbqaldWKYDB/gS48QtclBDUEBTzZHfJzUDhA6KuDqHI s7hFM5bERrwB5oW7xngTvZfFxtlikOzF6R+9bQJ0OAcVNm7p7j229XsqpOXxEQYvgFX2 uAbvQfGVr3Xe5MWTTG9lmuxsbg3ks572TiZHRrdYKqlqhago9r4HzC1TR5zmVfh3FUPf vaCcG9PV9i+491w4gTWMJXcHax8XNlB1hpoKPgyEsiV5mV9x3LPo7VX7zcasz3sb+Yo3 jjl+sSMpZnkkyMGhAtscavCot1zWyTy/D81H8lA044qM1W4tF7SgSk70Kun9MLCpB6U+ nkrw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlKMmNuMtm4hfgUXpj+V+yZDWPK63hjSxYcaxGNsmfXGU2dTqKFlVB/WSaoAvRpX28Mt1nq X-Received: by 10.194.187.107 with SMTP id fr11mr145014wjc.70.1398967445317; Thu, 01 May 2014 11:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-f176.google.com (mail-we0-f176.google.com [74.125.82.176]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id t18sm5116579wiv.16.2014.05.01.11.04.03 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 01 May 2014 11:04:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f176.google.com with SMTP id q59so1154860wes.35 for ; Thu, 01 May 2014 11:04:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.92.34 with SMTP id cj2mr3193849wib.15.1398967442404; Thu, 01 May 2014 11:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.181.136 with HTTP; Thu, 1 May 2014 11:04:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <28C7190C-B47A-4C31-9EA4-F55AD386507F@phonefromhere.com> References: <5357B281.1030900@alvestrand.no> <4A607E3C-B0A3-450E-863C-8E71C8EFC191@cisco.com> <28C7190C-B47A-4C31-9EA4-F55AD386507F@phonefromhere.com> Date: Thu, 1 May 2014 14:04:02 -0400 Message-ID: From: Roman Shpount To: Tim Panton Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043892b574feae04f85a7d66 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/E1rDArMEb9umnEGIUETBnIjc9x8 Cc: "Cullen Jennings \(fluffy\)" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Pictures of congestion control on the Internet - which is more realistic? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 May 2014 18:04:13 -0000 X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 May 2014 18:04:13 -0000 --f46d043892b574feae04f85a7d66 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 7:08 AM, Tim Panton wrote: > Lets not give up on this. > Nobody argues we should give up on this, but using an adaptive rate audio codec does not remove the need for QOS. > > It is also worth noting that cell phones can do this already, selecting > the AMR mode according to the link capacity - so there is a > proof-by-example :-) > > On cell phone networks voice traffic is treated differently then data so, in fact, there is QOS in place on the cell data link. The whole argument is if application level rate adaptation is enough or QOS support is needed. I would say rate adaptation helps, but QOS is still needed. _____________ Roman Shpount --f46d043892b574feae04f85a7d66 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On T= hu, May 1, 2014 at 7:08 AM, Tim Panton <tim@phonefromhere.com><= /span> wrote:
Lets not give up on this.

Nobody argues we should give up on this, but using an a= daptive rate audio codec does not remove the need for QOS.
=C2=A0=

It is also worth noting that cell phones can do this already, selecting the= AMR mode according to the link capacity - =C2=A0so there is a proof-by-exa= mple :-)


On cell phone networks voice traffic i= s treated differently then data so, in fact, there is QOS in place on the c= ell data link.

The whole argument is if applicatio= n level rate adaptation is enough or QOS support is needed. I would say rat= e adaptation helps, but QOS is still needed.
_____________
Roman Shpount
=C2=A0
--f46d043892b574feae04f85a7d66-- From nobody Thu May 1 11:33:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8D4E1A0923 for ; Thu, 1 May 2014 11:33:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zs7IFEtWDAaF for ; Thu, 1 May 2014 11:33:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out4.uio.no (mail-out4.uio.no [IPv6:2001:700:100:10::15]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E9B21A08B3 for ; Thu, 1 May 2014 11:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-mx2.uio.no ([129.240.10.30]) by mail-out4.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Wfvne-0000vQ-0O; Thu, 01 May 2014 20:33:38 +0200 Received: from ti0034a400-3556.bb.online.no ([85.167.44.241] helo=[10.0.0.5]) by mail-mx2.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) user michawe (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Wfvnd-0006eo-B9; Thu, 01 May 2014 20:33:37 +0200 References: <5357B281.1030900@alvestrand.no> <4A607E3C-B0A3-450E-863C-8E71C8EFC191@cisco.com> <28C7190C-B47A-4C31-9EA4-F55AD386507F@phonefromhere.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-5B2D11CC-D0D5-4077-90A7-E633CCBB6B35 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <2D737407-E40F-45DF-8080-DD71026E6066@ifi.uio.no> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (11D167) From: Michael Welzl Date: Thu, 1 May 2014 20:33:34 +0200 To: Roman Shpount X-UiO-SPF-Received: X-UiO-Ratelimit-Test: rcpts/h 4 msgs/h 1 sum rcpts/h 4 sum msgs/h 1 total rcpts 15854 max rcpts/h 44 ratelimit 0 X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-5.0, required=5.0, autolearn=disabled, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL=-5, uiobl=NO, uiouri=NO) X-UiO-Scanned: 39870CE3272F2C3BED6C91EA48967C8893EF54AB X-UiO-SPAM-Test: remote_host: 85.167.44.241 spam_score: -49 maxlevel 80 minaction 2 bait 0 blacklist 0 greylist 0 ratelimit 0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/3FOOTY5j5lq0tkKpxd7Mr_p479c Cc: "Cullen Jennings \(fluffy\)" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Pictures of congestion control on the Internet - which is more realistic? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 May 2014 18:33:44 -0000 --Apple-Mail-5B2D11CC-D0D5-4077-90A7-E633CCBB6B35 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sent from my iPhone > On 1. mai 2014, at 20:04, Roman Shpount wrote: >=20 >> On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 7:08 AM, Tim Panton wrote:= >> Lets not give up on this. >=20 > Nobody argues we should give up on this, but using an adaptive rate audio c= odec does not remove the need for QOS. > =20 >>=20 >> It is also worth noting that cell phones can do this already, selecting t= he AMR mode according to the link capacity - so there is a proof-by-example= :-) >=20 > On cell phone networks voice traffic is treated differently then data so, i= n fact, there is QOS in place on the cell data link. >=20 > The whole argument is if application level rate adaptation is enough or QO= S support is needed. I would say rate adaptation helps, but QOS is still nee= ded. app level can only operate on traffic coming from one host; it can't make my= high-pri flow more important than *your* low-pri flow... > _____________ > Roman Shpount > =20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb --Apple-Mail-5B2D11CC-D0D5-4077-90A7-E633CCBB6B35 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


Sent from my iPhone

On 1. mai 2014, at 20:04, Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> wrote:

On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 7:08 AM, Tim Panton <tim@phonefromhere.com> wrote:
Lets not give up on this.

Nobody argues we should give up on this, but using an adaptive rate audio codec does not remove the need for QOS.
 

It is also worth noting that cell phones can do this already, selecting the AMR mode according to the link capacity -  so there is a proof-by-example :-)


On cell phone networks voice traffic is treated differently then data so, in fact, there is QOS in place on the cell data link.

The whole argument is if application level rate adaptation is enough or QOS support is needed. I would say rate adaptation helps, but QOS is still needed.

app level can only operate on traffic coming from one host; it can't make my high-pri flow more important than *your* low-pri flow...


_____________
Roman Shpount
 
_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
--Apple-Mail-5B2D11CC-D0D5-4077-90A7-E633CCBB6B35-- From nobody Fri May 2 01:39:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1972A1A0439 for ; Fri, 2 May 2014 01:39:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BF3MF3UXC1YN for ; Fri, 2 May 2014 01:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7173F1A0371 for ; Fri, 2 May 2014 01:39:45 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-f790e6d000001067-55-536359cefd05 Received: from ESESSHC010.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 31.7E.04199.EC953635; Fri, 2 May 2014 10:39:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.174.1; Fri, 2 May 2014 10:39:42 +0200 Message-ID: <536359CE.2060309@ericsson.com> Date: Fri, 2 May 2014 10:39:42 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" References: <533E7A50.5040909@ericsson.com> <53425DDE.2030005@alvestrand.no> <534288C2.6010906@ericsson.com> <5342ABBB.9050300@alvestrand.no> <534D4CC4.9040107@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrFLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje65yORgg037jSw6JrNZHOvrYrNY +6+d3YHZ48qEK6weU35vZPVYsuQnUwBzFJdNSmpOZllqkb5dAlfGlB2z2ApeCFS0zhVsYDzN 28XIySEhYCLx6eNTJghbTOLCvfVsXYxcHEICRxkl1s0/yQrhLGOUuPLqK1gVr4C2xMbd38Fs FgEViZm9S9lAbDYBC4mbPxrBbFGBYIkND/+yQ9QLSpyc+YQFxBYRMJRo2jMPrJdZIFLix4KX YPXCAhkS05o2Q22+xyhxoPcqWIJTwFbi6oHDQDYH0HniEj2NQRC9ehJTrrYwQtjyEs1bZzOD 2EJAtzU0dbBOYBSahWT1LCQts5C0LGBkXsUoWpxanJSbbmSkl1qUmVxcnJ+nl5dasokRGNgH t/w22MH48rnjIUYBDkYlHt7iL5HBQqyJZcWVuYcYpTlYlMR5v511DxYSSE8sSc1OTS1ILYov Ks1JLT7EyMTBKdXAGKq/vzui5MSLTYsuHLirGy+9plY3bVpcsEmH9MY6zmRxs5v2gevezck1 5D75WzO6cnncGu167o1S21MUQjyXbjoQ+DfZa6JO0atbezS3O69kX3K0/syq9d/8JmvFXvj8 LM7g6oXnnLb+ZbMsmTbsmbpn8wbmb5cf33O1F1zGpH1ia9DRIvaQL0osxRmJhlrMRcWJALN+ MclNAgAA Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/cbS-UVvv70mwsqPlRT1Y4MytuV8 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Draft proposal for updating Multiparty topologies in draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 May 2014 08:39:47 -0000 On 2014-04-30 23:56, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote: > > On Apr 15, 2014, at 9:14 AM, Magnus Westerlund > wrote: > >> This limitation means that some of the RTP middlebox-based >> topologies are not suitable for use in the WebRTC environment. >> Specifically: >> >> o Video switching MCUs (Topo-Video-switch-MCU) SHOULD NOT be >> used, since they make the use of RTCP for congestion control and >> quality of service reports problematic (see Section 3.8 of >> [I-D.ietf-avtcore-rtp-topologies-update]). > > I think this is deserving of some WG discussion as people may not be > up to speed of what this is allowing or not allowing. My > understanding was several companies at the last WebRTC Expo > conference were demonstrating system that used this type of MCU. > > If SRTP were more flexible and there was a way to a mixer work > without giving it the keys to the decrypt the media, I think people > would be keener on mixers but right it seems like the pro / cons > invovle a trade off between significant security functionally loss > and possible loss of some RTCP data which many systems totally > ignore. Anyway, not taking any opinion other than this seems like a > significant enough change to have some discussion on it. > WG, The change is in the document currently in WG last call. So please review the whole context, and please do read the topologies document so that you have a real understanding of what a topology means. The topology names can be misinterpreted if one only looks at the high level, not the details of the RTP/RTCP behaviour the topology discusses. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri May 2 01:50:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA51D1A0A6F for ; Fri, 2 May 2014 01:50:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D-imD-xuQPlt for ; Fri, 2 May 2014 01:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFE191A6EDC for ; Fri, 2 May 2014 01:50:02 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-f798c6d000001521-81-53635c380554 Received: from ESESSHC019.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id E1.31.05409.83C53635; Fri, 2 May 2014 10:50:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.77) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.174.1; Fri, 2 May 2014 10:49:59 +0200 Message-ID: <53635C37.4080709@ericsson.com> Date: Fri, 2 May 2014 10:49:59 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprJLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvja5FTHKwwaatghZr/7WzOzB6LFny kymAMYrLJiU1J7MstUjfLoEr49DcZ2wFS7grXq24wN7AOIWzi5GTQ0LAROLkvn9sELaYxIV7 64FsLg4hgaOMEvOvbWAHSQgJLGOUWPrOC8TmFdCWuPzvJFgDi4CKxOlbBxhBbDYBC4mbPxrB 4qICwRIbHv5lh6gXlDg58wkLiC0iICrx+vE0VhBbWCBAYk//VRaI+QES664cA7I5ODgFAiWm XAczJQTEJXoag0AqmAX0JKZcbWGEsOUlmrfOZobo1JZoaOpgncAoOAvJsllIWmYhaVnAyLyK UbQ4tTgpN93IWC+1KDO5uDg/Ty8vtWQTIzAsD275rbqD8fIbx0OMAhyMSjy8xV8ig4VYE8uK K3MPMUpzsCiJ83655RMsJJCeWJKanZpakFoUX1Sak1p8iJGJg1OqgVFr4Uets5+TfYNsRRsW r3V4uWjj0tPsbjNEau5lT/Pr7o2paGZWuyN5WzCe+YuwwDe/3osCBrGFE7K7ZePicickTGRN mc2kV/D8vUHrNwZdzUWfPqj3O9h1vYv28vzms3/Dfz3d7WzdXvMuOnHwRHyfGZiiuzQm+n1s XtdCWUOh1aEfjyVNUmIpzkg01GIuKk4EAGI8jPYsAgAA Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/l7Kao0zif9mLBZdLi5vGPbkJVYw Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 May 2014 08:50:04 -0000 WG, As Author, I really hope you are reviewing this draft. You have another week to provide comments. I really hope that people reading it provide some feedback, positive or negative so that we get to know your view on this. So go fetch the draft here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage/ Me personally really likes the feedback now, as that enables me to respond to it and discuss it if necessary at the interim. Anything that comes later, I will be unable to answer, at least until early next year. Cheers Magnus On 2014-04-24 17:13, Ted Hardie wrote: > This begins a working group last call on draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13; > please review the document and provide comments to the list by May 9, 2014. > > thanks, > > Ted, Cullen, Sean > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri May 2 02:03:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AEC31A0A62 for ; Fri, 2 May 2014 02:03:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3g0Wf7cJlEob for ; Fri, 2 May 2014 02:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mork.alvestrand.no (mork.alvestrand.no [IPv6:2001:700:1:2::117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E99CE1A0371 for ; Fri, 2 May 2014 02:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 353AE7C5513; Fri, 2 May 2014 11:03:09 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Received: from mork.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mork.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NsZDxDMlYiYp; Fri, 2 May 2014 11:03:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:de0a:27:f4ea:ffbe:da72:7373] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:de0a:27:f4ea:ffbe:da72:7373]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D2DB07C54E1; Fri, 2 May 2014 11:03:06 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <53635F4A.5040508@alvestrand.no> Date: Fri, 02 May 2014 11:03:06 +0200 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" , Magnus Westerlund References: <533E7A50.5040909@ericsson.com> <53425DDE.2030005@alvestrand.no> <534288C2.6010906@ericsson.com> <5342ABBB.9050300@alvestrand.no> <534D4CC4.9040107@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/hadA4XA1_9MnlAb5a_uEpYGuogQ Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Draft proposal for updating Multiparty topologies in draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 May 2014 09:03:15 -0000 On 04/30/2014 11:56 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote: > On Apr 15, 2014, at 9:14 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > >> This limitation means that >> some of the RTP middlebox-based topologies are not suitable for use >> in the WebRTC environment. Specifically: >> >> o Video switching MCUs (Topo-Video-switch-MCU) SHOULD NOT be used, >> since they make the use of RTCP for congestion control and quality >> of service reports problematic (see Section 3.8 of >> [I-D.ietf-avtcore-rtp-topologies-update]). > I think this is deserving of some WG discussion as people may not be up to speed of what this is allowing or not allowing. My understanding was several companies at the last WebRTC Expo conference were demonstrating system that used this type of MCU. > > If SRTP were more flexible and there was a way to a mixer work without giving it the keys to the decrypt the media, I think people would be keener on mixers but right it seems like the pro / cons invovle a trade off between significant security functionally loss and possible loss of some RTCP data which many systems totally ignore. Anyway, not taking any opinion other than this seems like a significant enough change to have some discussion on it. > Seems the discussion of what the effects are belongs to the threads on topologies-update. RTCWEB implementations that ignore RTCP are going to break all our attempts at congestion control anyway, so I'm inclined to leave them out of the spec. They'll break on their own. From nobody Fri May 2 10:23:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07FB11A6F88 for ; Fri, 2 May 2014 10:23:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9a5txkR9q893 for ; Fri, 2 May 2014 10:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mork.alvestrand.no (mork.alvestrand.no [IPv6:2001:700:1:2::117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7732E1A0911 for ; Fri, 2 May 2014 10:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B060B7C52C0 for ; Fri, 2 May 2014 19:23:25 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Received: from mork.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mork.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tUaBLvb8ZqW1 for ; Fri, 2 May 2014 19:23:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.186] (unknown [188.113.88.47]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BFE807C521B for ; Fri, 2 May 2014 19:23:23 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <5363D48B.7050001@alvestrand.no> Date: Fri, 02 May 2014 19:23:23 +0200 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <20140425084726.8812.24604.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <535A21E3.7070008@alvestrand.no> <535A5ACC.9070700@viagenie.ca> <535A6151.1060501@alvestrand.no> <535A68E1.9090901@viagenie.ca> <535A78FF.20700@alvestrand.no> <535A7C73.6050701@viagenie.ca> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/o5SEszNqwLwl6sfq88yC-mFrjzg Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Prioritization X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 May 2014 17:23:34 -0000 On 04/30/2014 11:23 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: > On 30 April 2014 14:09, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote: >> On Apr 25, 2014, at 11:03 AM, Matthew Kaufman (SKYPE) wrote: >> >>> If a "lower priority" packet is dispatched before a "higher priority" packet in order to "prevent starvation", then what does "higher priority" mean? >> I think the labels reflect what "might" happen on average and not for any particular packet. > I think that Matthew was referring to the part where the browser is > involved. That is, the bit where, when presented with the option to > send just one packet from buckets A through D, how does it choose from > those buckets. > > The implication was that if A is more important than B, then if A > wants to send, it gets to send. Period. The "prevents starvation" > view of the world says that work is shared between A-D, with > increasingly large proportions of the available capacity given to > higher priority streams. The problem with both these models is that > they are crap in various ways. I wouldn't use that word; it doesn't carry any information that I can discern. > In one, you get cases where lower > priority stuff never happens, even if that isn't what you wanted; in > another, lower priority stuff can get resources, and that wasn't what > you wanted. So that's a better perspective: What range of things do you want to have happen? My thinking is that with variable-rate encoders, it is common and simple to make do with less resources than you expected to have; it is more complex to program for the case where transmission ceases totally for some of the channels, some of the time. So my argument for preferring round-robin schemes is that the case where you don't want starvation to happen is more common than the case where you want starvation to happen. But reasonable people can disagree here. > > The DSCP markings and how they might interact with this are just an > additional layer of uncertainty, primarily. Hence the note about "under a common congestion controller" - if DSCP markers are respected, having a common congestion controller covering different DSCP classes doesn't make much sense - they don't "see" the same network. If they're not respected .... they could more usefully be grouped together. > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb -- Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. From nobody Fri May 2 10:45:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95CA91A6F88 for ; Fri, 2 May 2014 10:45:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lE-fmDssWvaZ for ; Fri, 2 May 2014 10:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mork.alvestrand.no (mork.alvestrand.no [IPv6:2001:700:1:2::117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 001451A6F36 for ; Fri, 2 May 2014 10:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6D4A7C5554 for ; Fri, 2 May 2014 19:45:14 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Received: from mork.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mork.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19wKEzaiFSQr for ; Fri, 2 May 2014 19:45:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.186] (unknown [188.113.88.47]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DDACE7C5556 for ; Fri, 2 May 2014 19:45:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <5363D9A8.5080801@alvestrand.no> Date: Fri, 02 May 2014 19:45:12 +0200 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <5357B281.1030900@alvestrand.no> <4A607E3C-B0A3-450E-863C-8E71C8EFC191@cisco.com> <28C7190C-B47A-4C31-9EA4-F55AD386507F@phonefromhere.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020900040604020303020308" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/fvc6BnxU6evf1iY5HsgFGAwy89k Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Pictures of congestion control on the Internet - which is more realistic? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 May 2014 17:45:19 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020900040604020303020308 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 05/01/2014 08:04 PM, Roman Shpount wrote: > On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 7:08 AM, Tim Panton > wrote: > > Lets not give up on this. > > > Nobody argues we should give up on this, but using an adaptive rate > audio codec does not remove the need for QOS. > > > > It is also worth noting that cell phones can do this already, > selecting the AMR mode according to the link capacity - so there > is a proof-by-example :-) > > > On cell phone networks voice traffic is treated differently then data > so, in fact, there is QOS in place on the cell data link. > > The whole argument is if application level rate adaptation is enough > or QOS support is needed. I would say rate adaptation helps, but QOS > is still needed. I'd put it the other way round - QoS helps (when it works), but rate adaptation is still needed. We might actually agree on what we need to do :-) -- Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. --------------020900040604020303020308 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 05/01/2014 08:04 PM, Roman Shpount wrote:
On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 7:08 AM, Tim Panton <tim@phonefromhere.com> wrote:
Lets not give up on this.

Nobody argues we should give up on this, but using an adaptive rate audio codec does not remove the need for QOS.
 

It is also worth noting that cell phones can do this already, selecting the AMR mode according to the link capacity -  so there is a proof-by-example :-)


On cell phone networks voice traffic is treated differently then data so, in fact, there is QOS in place on the cell data link.

The whole argument is if application level rate adaptation is enough or QOS support is needed. I would say rate adaptation helps, but QOS is still needed.

I'd put it the other way round - QoS helps (when it works), but rate adaptation is still needed.

We might actually agree on what we need to do :-)



-- 
Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark.
--------------020900040604020303020308-- From nobody Fri May 2 10:49:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7CCF1A6FA3 for ; Fri, 2 May 2014 10:49:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J38mHhj7kjtc for ; Fri, 2 May 2014 10:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-f48.google.com (mail-wg0-f48.google.com [74.125.82.48]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD2351A6FA9 for ; Fri, 2 May 2014 10:49:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f48.google.com with SMTP id x13so1359479wgg.19 for ; Fri, 02 May 2014 10:49:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=53YWDneu6xkboJsvzcQ4rt+SsGZXbfAyA08+P12c4bU=; b=Ip3MrmuiR6b5XxQkjcZD8QMkJ3p5jwnH99LRkM7gBKmoDRBQB7hRbtaN4nApNki6e+ 2uNtZdSTOSL+RsrlVsak9oX7uL5wAnVlmS6L8Dv9xaeKViFQ9+DEV9q1xkW/lvYfKm60 JiRft7rlDtdMgscGAHiNkg9u8DudspHHcClyPYI0CxG45SLB5ghysR8IlG5xXuMa6cr+ qDlHRpA1cPaqfJem9Cj9l961VvfSf/fKdLN6RiCA4QQc2cPduRGOKl7eYYxusnyOm7dN wunyFsMFAB2oPZDntzo+QVnh9M6YzJj0vhzGiO5OC/x4Z+kuoYikUA3vBHHX3fIgQv9U yWbw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkLbit1Q1yi9pRt47KzQ5ksasdLAihMUA8/TRAhV3G0O/UoMW5T7gfCSQZvXdkqMVdMDQB9 X-Received: by 10.180.13.8 with SMTP id d8mr4023965wic.13.1399052941986; Fri, 02 May 2014 10:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f181.google.com (mail-wi0-f181.google.com [209.85.212.181]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id nb8sm6192703wic.18.2014.05.02.10.49.00 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 02 May 2014 10:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f181.google.com with SMTP id f8so2744747wiw.8 for ; Fri, 02 May 2014 10:48:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.92.69 with SMTP id ck5mr4049544wib.15.1399052939977; Fri, 02 May 2014 10:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.181.136 with HTTP; Fri, 2 May 2014 10:48:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5363D9A8.5080801@alvestrand.no> References: <5357B281.1030900@alvestrand.no> <4A607E3C-B0A3-450E-863C-8E71C8EFC191@cisco.com> <28C7190C-B47A-4C31-9EA4-F55AD386507F@phonefromhere.com> <5363D9A8.5080801@alvestrand.no> Date: Fri, 2 May 2014 13:48:59 -0400 Message-ID: From: Roman Shpount To: Harald Alvestrand Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf30684739826be104f86e6500 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/iH1_fF9kDsH_WfM5YkDPKHcwdRk Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Pictures of congestion control on the Internet - which is more realistic? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 May 2014 17:49:06 -0000 --20cf30684739826be104f86e6500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 1:45 PM, Harald Alvestrand wrote: > I'd put it the other way round - QoS helps (when it works), but rate > adaptation is still needed. > > We might actually agree on what we need to do :-) > I am sure we agree :) We need both QOS and rate adaptation to get the best possible communication connection quality. _____________ Roman Shpount --20cf30684739826be104f86e6500 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On F= ri, May 2, 2014 at 1:45 PM, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no= > wrote:
=20 =20 =20
I'd put it the other way r= ound - QoS helps (when it works), but rate adaptation is still needed.

We might actually agree on what we need to do :-)

I am sure we agree :) We need both QOS and rate adaptation= to get the best possible communication connection quality.
_____________
Roman Shpount
=C2=A0
--20cf30684739826be104f86e6500-- From nobody Fri May 2 13:13:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FEAC1A6F68 for ; Fri, 2 May 2014 13:13:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BMQHZsddwBqY for ; Fri, 2 May 2014 13:13:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out2.uio.no (mail-out2.uio.no [IPv6:2001:700:100:10::58]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F69B1A0928 for ; Fri, 2 May 2014 13:13:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-mx6.uio.no ([129.240.10.40]) by mail-out2.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.75) (envelope-from ) id 1WgJpq-0005JF-2n; Fri, 02 May 2014 22:13:30 +0200 Received: from 59.115.34.95.customer.cdi.no ([95.34.115.59] helo=[192.168.0.114]) by mail-mx6.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) user michawe (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WgJpp-0004r3-Az; Fri, 02 May 2014 22:13:30 +0200 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D58498ED-82BE-4725-A35D-EF978254730E" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Michael Welzl In-Reply-To: <5363D48B.7050001@alvestrand.no> Date: Fri, 2 May 2014 22:13:27 +0200 Message-Id: References: <20140425084726.8812.24604.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <535A21E3.7070008@alvestrand.no> <535A5ACC.9070700@viagenie.ca> <535A6151.1060501@alvestrand.no> <535A68E1.9090901@viagenie.ca> <535A78FF.20700@alvestrand.no> <535A7C73.6050701@viagenie.ca> <5363D48B.7050001@alvestrand.no> To: Harald Alvestrand X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) X-UiO-SPF-Received: X-UiO-Ratelimit-Test: rcpts/h 6 msgs/h 2 sum rcpts/h 6 sum msgs/h 2 total rcpts 15926 max rcpts/h 44 ratelimit 0 X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-5.0, required=5.0, autolearn=disabled, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=0.001, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL=-5, uiobl=NO, uiouri=NO) X-UiO-Scanned: 99158EE82D5C02B1368D0B14861D36764D699EAC X-UiO-SPAM-Test: UIO-GREYLIST remote_host: 95.34.115.59 spam_score: -49 maxlevel 99990 minaction 1 bait 0 mail/h: 2 total 1427 max/h 14 blacklist 0 greylist 1 ratelimit 0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/6Clk9xF48mLjCaCs10DYfTvAjCs Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org, safiqul Islam Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Prioritization X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 May 2014 20:13:36 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D58498ED-82BE-4725-A35D-EF978254730E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, >> The DSCP markings and how they might interact with this are just an >> additional layer of uncertainty, primarily. > Hence the note about "under a common congestion controller" - if DSCP > markers are respected, having a common congestion controller covering > different DSCP classes doesn't make much sense - they don't "see" the > same network. >=20 > If they're not respected .... they could more usefully be grouped = together. This is the current version of the paragraph in = draft-welzl-rmcat-coupled-cc-02 that relates to this matter (here, SBD = means Shared Bottleneck Detection), and FGI =3D Flow Group Identifier - = a number used to decide whether flows should be controlled together): *** SBD uses knowledge about the flows to determine which flows belong in the same Flow Group (FG), and assigns FGIs accordingly. This knowledge can be derived from measurements, by considering correlations among measured delay and loss as an indication of a shared bottleneck, or it can be based on the simple assumption that packets sharing the same five-tuple (IP source and destination address, protocol, and transport layer port number pair) and having the same Differentiated Services Code Point (DSCP) in the IP header are typically treated in the same way along the path. The latter method is the only one specified in this document: SBD MAY consider all flows that use the same five-tuple and DSCP to belong to the same FG. This classification applies to certain tunnels, or RTP flows that are multiplexed over one transport (cf. [ transport-multiplex ]). In one way or another, such multiplexing will probably be recommended for use with rtcweb [ rtcweb-rtp-usage]. *** Any comments on this text? Our plan is to write a separate complementary document that will = describe a measurement-based SBD method. Both mechanisms are in the = works and we'll submit them (or: are in the process of submitting them) = to RMCAT. Cheers, Michael --Apple-Mail=_D58498ED-82BE-4725-A35D-EF978254730E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hi,


The DSCP = markings and how they might interact with this are just an
additional = layer of uncertainty, primarily.
Hence the note about = "under a common congestion controller" - if DSCP
markers are = respected, having a common congestion controller covering
different = DSCP classes doesn't make much sense - they don't "see" the
same = network.

If they're not respected .... they could more usefully = be grouped = together.


This = is the current version of the paragraph in = draft-welzl-rmcat-coupled-cc-02 that relates to this matter (here, SBD = means Shared Bottleneck Detection), and FGI =3D Flow Group Identifier - = a number used to decide whether flows should be controlled = together):

***

&nbs= p;  SBD uses knowledge about the flows to determine which flows = belong in
   the same Flow Group (FG), and assigns = FGIs accordingly.  This
   knowledge can be = derived from measurements, by considering
  =  correlations among measured delay and loss as an indication of = a
   shared bottleneck, or it can be based on the = simple assumption that
   packets sharing the same = five-tuple (IP source and destination
   address, = protocol, and transport layer port number pair) and = having
   the same Differentiated Services Code = Point (DSCP) in the IP header
   are typically = treated in the same way along the path.  The = latter
   method is the only one specified in this = document: SBD MAY consider
   all flows that use the = same five-tuple and DSCP to belong to the same
  =  FG.  This classification applies to certain tunnels, or RTP = flows
   that are multiplexed over one transport = (cf. [
transport-multiplex
]).
   In one = way or another, such multiplexing will probably be = recommended
   for use with rtcweb = [
rtcweb-rtp-usage].
***

Any = comments on this text?

Our plan is to write a = separate complementary document that will describe a measurement-based = SBD method. Both mechanisms are in the works and we'll submit them (or: = are in the process of submitting them) to = RMCAT.

Cheers,
Michael

= --Apple-Mail=_D58498ED-82BE-4725-A35D-EF978254730E-- From nobody Mon May 5 02:52:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D22B1A02A1 for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 02:52:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fh9l8xOjj5ng for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 02:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp7.webway.se (smtp7.webway.se [IPv6:2a02:920:212e::205]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B5F61A029F for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 02:52:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.40.24] (h87-96-134-129.dynamic.se.alltele.net [87.96.134.129]) by smtp7.webway.se (Postfix) with ESMTPA id A3E0E93C1AF; Mon, 5 May 2014 09:51:28 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: "Olle E. Johansson" In-Reply-To: <53635C37.4080709@ericsson.com> Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 11:52:27 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <20289D7A-457D-4563-8D5E-D7A03D3E60D5@edvina.net> References: <53635C37.4080709@ericsson.com> To: Magnus Westerlund X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/mxeA9aW4B-oOnjJk15ShSuShMH0 Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 May 2014 09:52:36 -0000 On 02 May 2014, at 10:49, Magnus Westerlund = wrote: > WG, >=20 > As Author, I really hope you are reviewing this draft. I have reviewed the draft and sent some typos and other minor issues = directly to the authors.=20 I think it is a very good overview and learned a lot from reading it in = detail. It pointed me to a large series of other documents that is now on my "must read" = list :-) I encourage everyone on the list to read it. RTP in WebRTC is according = to this document far away from your typical SIP phone with a ten-year old RTP = stack.=20 The document mentions interop with legacy devices, but I think it's = mostly to have a nice attitude. It's going to be hard, unless they upgrade. Which = is=20 about time. /O > You have another > week to provide comments. I really hope that people reading it provide > some feedback, positive or negative so that we get to know your view = on > this. >=20 > So go fetch the draft here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage/ >=20 > Me personally really likes the feedback now, as that enables me to > respond to it and discuss it if necessary at the interim. Anything = that > comes later, I will be unable to answer, at least until early next = year. >=20 > Cheers >=20 > Magnus >=20 > On 2014-04-24 17:13, Ted Hardie wrote: >> This begins a working group last call on = draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13; >> please review the document and provide comments to the list by May 9, = 2014. >>=20 >> thanks, >>=20 >> Ted, Cullen, Sean >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 >=20 > Magnus Westerlund >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From nobody Mon May 5 16:26:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DAD71A0195 for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 15:38:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VBpH2OUtpXbC for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 15:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1lp0144.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.144]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACA461A01CE for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 15:38:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BL2PR03MB419.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.141.92.18) by BL2PR03MB418.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.141.92.13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.934.12; Mon, 5 May 2014 22:38:24 +0000 Received: from BL2PR03MB419.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.92.18]) by BL2PR03MB419.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.92.18]) with mapi id 15.00.0939.000; Mon, 5 May 2014 22:38:23 +0000 From: Andrei Popov To: Andrei Popov , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09: DTLS 1.2 only? Thread-Index: Ac9Zw5ansFOV9k7GQvai4TDmd4zOigO7pVfA Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 22:38:22 +0000 Message-ID: <4116cc72bf7f4194ba096afc12d4e0df@BL2PR03MB419.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> References: <99c75200c5e742b5946ec8e0a850e13d@BY2PR03MB427.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> In-Reply-To: <99c75200c5e742b5946ec8e0a850e13d@BY2PR03MB427.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [2001:4898:80e0:ee43::2] x-forefront-prvs: 0202D21D2F x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009001)(6009001)(428001)(377454003)(199002)(189002)(64706001)(80022001)(99286001)(79102001)(74662001)(31966008)(85852003)(83072002)(86362001)(16236675002)(20776003)(46102001)(33646001)(4396001)(86612001)(50986999)(1511001)(99396002)(76176999)(76482001)(77096999)(101416001)(92566001)(21056001)(19300405004)(76576001)(54356999)(81342001)(77982001)(15975445006)(87936001)(74316001)(19580405001)(19580395003)(83322001)(2656002)(74502001)(15202345003)(81542001)(24736002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BL2PR03MB418; H:BL2PR03MB419.namprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:; received-spf: None (: microsoft.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=Andrei.Popov@microsoft.com; Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4116cc72bf7f4194ba096afc12d4e0dfBL2PR03MB419namprd03pro_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.onmicrosoft.com Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/ydQYvZIaY6ZziTZQVnI9BykH4PY X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 05 May 2014 16:26:10 -0700 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09: DTLS 1.2 only? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 May 2014 22:38:47 -0000 --_000_4116cc72bf7f4194ba096afc12d4e0dfBL2PR03MB419namprd03pro_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just to confirm: does everyone think it's a good idea to require the use of= DTLS 1.2? Cheers, Andrei From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrei Popov Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:32 PM To: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: [rtcweb] draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09: DTLS 1.2 only? draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09. says: " [[OPEN ISSUE: Are these the right cipher suites?]] All implementations MUST implement the following two cipher suites: TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 and TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 ..." These are (D)TLS 1.2 cipher suites; I think this requirement would exclude = DTLS 1.0 implementations. For easier/broader adoption, would it make sense = to allow DTLS 1.0? Cheers, Andrei --_000_4116cc72bf7f4194ba096afc12d4e0dfBL2PR03MB419namprd03pro_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Just to confirm: does = everyone think it’s a good idea to require the use of DTLS 1.2?<= /o:p>

 

Cheers,

 

Andrei

 

From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org]= On Behalf Of Andrei Popov
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:32 PM
To: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: [rtcweb] draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09: DTLS 1.2 only?=

 

draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09. says:=

 

“ [[OPEN ISSUE:  Are these the right ciph= er suites?]]  All

   implementations MUST implement the foll= owing two cipher suites:

   TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 and=

   TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 &= #8230;”

 

These are (D)TLS 1.2 cipher suites; I think this req= uirement would exclude DTLS 1.0 implementations. For easier/broader adoptio= n, would it make sense to allow DTLS 1.0?

 

Cheers,

 

Andrei

--_000_4116cc72bf7f4194ba096afc12d4e0dfBL2PR03MB419namprd03pro_-- From nobody Mon May 5 16:47:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89B541A01C7 for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 16:47:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3WMHFOGd8Bsv for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 16:47:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x233.google.com (mail-wg0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A8D41A013C for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 16:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f51.google.com with SMTP id x13so2118149wgg.22 for ; Mon, 05 May 2014 16:47:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fvdOpnsZ2ElMrG81xErcM/3kJzzpLgNtWYQBFx1J6rg=; b=VzcKjuKjvov+iKlX1dfNfEwfRgwM0aqzlaXx5mgtxSaqzDsZXsKaMIdZDNXx/uW31E TdcSWBziKWPp95tzHYNLwV78efUZ1WkgK9H+WyMTKJ3noLxnTNk7iM5bKDt3BTFTJrQn Inl03xNF8x9J7Vyw5mLsklb51tthIznubMq9sbZZaYAcPID8nnOPK9H37Llfx13udHW1 yCgve9IkYMMEAyyyc0GRSK78E2ShvbW6P1OVRQnDOLJYrVDCc3GQt3snpDi9/R45P6tn 6myBX5maantUwfaJJSGK19NKNdnSAPG0aRb+DfXrwPigJj4K7OAVVr2oHKiZTCbPkzXi DbWA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.82.133 with SMTP id i5mr18175543wiy.50.1399333643034; Mon, 05 May 2014 16:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.77.10 with HTTP; Mon, 5 May 2014 16:47:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4116cc72bf7f4194ba096afc12d4e0df@BL2PR03MB419.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> References: <99c75200c5e742b5946ec8e0a850e13d@BY2PR03MB427.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <4116cc72bf7f4194ba096afc12d4e0df@BL2PR03MB419.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 16:47:22 -0700 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Andrei Popov Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/AJhOv45f6n7Us_haKaA_ah-2S_U Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09: DTLS 1.2 only? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 May 2014 23:47:29 -0000 On 5 May 2014 15:38, Andrei Popov wrote: > Just to confirm: does everyone think it=E2=80=99s a good idea to require = the use of > DTLS 1.2? I'll note that Firefox currently doesn't comply with this requirement. We currently only negotiate DTLS 1.0 (i.e., datagram TLS 1.1). We should be conformant with this shortly. (Assuming of course that this doesn't change.) From nobody Mon May 5 20:03:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00EE41A0204 for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 20:03:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fbTvjwfifBj6 for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 20:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oa0-x22c.google.com (mail-oa0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c02::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94F211A0114 for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 20:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oa0-f44.google.com with SMTP id i11so2987958oag.3 for ; Mon, 05 May 2014 20:03:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:cc:from:subject:date:to; bh=8yL+UPoCc03cSBDAJb2aBJySNKKXG4nhV1EK6sf71cU=; b=Y2SjKyLUXl99mhNyZTAy/4zqvYLEZuTI1AeQ5EiWCFSKckX/rdJ6HiAVJIB8TC/KHn 08URyvXDud+VTCTc8nknqi5daPhW+aqo5ajuQkICARW1j8EeyDd6cNaclT9Zok6lEf5y 2cO2bIN1MMzF5xVGro1AK1yo77RHLXY0mO11oxKWTjsySqowYIshVuOqVhyA8DXye1Af OiFhghgAboJ1f9emOYVc9DCCZjvlL56orxV5u7ZvghotUPHjqWxpMHYEv1kIF9Z+GXxs WFifpwNCHveT4JJr5v7kDm4XP3+zHzOZs1+B6HCtvbSbKSt1ne6gMKqbBii3NPbXW4Od sHfw== X-Received: by 10.60.146.177 with SMTP id td17mr37005214oeb.16.1399345411911; Mon, 05 May 2014 20:03:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.178.2.73] (mobile-166-171-251-242.mycingular.net. [166.171.251.242]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ko3sm46074665oeb.1.2014.05.05.20.03.29 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 05 May 2014 20:03:30 -0700 (PDT) References: <99c75200c5e742b5946ec8e0a850e13d@BY2PR03MB427.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <4116cc72bf7f4194ba096afc12d4e0df@BL2PR03MB419.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: <4116cc72bf7f4194ba096afc12d4e0df@BL2PR03MB419.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-27146C86-9FC0-4BA9-A316-4E4A5626D117 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <7BC52A81-1E1F-455C-918E-DC1923B5B873@gmail.com> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (11D201) From: Bernard Aboba Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 20:03:24 -0700 To: Andrei Popov Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/MqaFcf9ShelQQm-CMHx5bGxb9NQ Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09: DTLS 1.2 only? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2014 03:03:38 -0000 --Apple-Mail-27146C86-9FC0-4BA9-A316-4E4A5626D117 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At the moment, the choice of GCM seems to be generating more heat than DTLS 1= .2 :( > On May 5, 2014, at 3:38 PM, Andrei Popov wrot= e: >=20 > Just to confirm: does everyone think it=E2=80=99s a good idea to require t= he use of DTLS 1.2? > =20 > Cheers, > =20 > Andrei > =20 > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrei Popov > Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:32 PM > To: rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: [rtcweb] draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09: DTLS 1.2 only? > =20 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09. says: > =20 > =E2=80=9C [[OPEN ISSUE: Are these the right cipher suites?]] All > implementations MUST implement the following two cipher suites: > TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 and > TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D > =20 > These are (D)TLS 1.2 cipher suites; I think this requirement would exclude= DTLS 1.0 implementations. For easier/broader adoption, would it make sense t= o allow DTLS 1.0? > =20 > Cheers, > =20 > Andrei > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb --Apple-Mail-27146C86-9FC0-4BA9-A316-4E4A5626D117 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
At the moment, the choice of GCM seems= to be generating more heat than DTLS 1.2 :(

On May 5, 2014, a= t 3:38 PM, Andrei Popov <An= drei.Popov@microsoft.com> wrote:

=

Just to confirm: does e= veryone think it=E2=80=99s a good idea to require the use of DTLS 1.2?<= /o:p>

 

Cheers,

 

Andrei

 

From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrei Popov
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2014 3:32 PM
To: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: [rtcweb] draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09: DTLS 1.2 only?<= o:p>

 

draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09. says:<= /p>

 

=E2=80=9C [[OPEN ISSUE:  Are these the right cip= her suites?]]  All

   implementations MUST implement the follo= wing two cipher suites:

   TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 and<= o:p>

   TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 =E2= =80=A6=E2=80=9D

 

These are (D)TLS 1.2 cipher suites; I think this requ= irement would exclude DTLS 1.0 implementations. For easier/broader adoption,= would it make sense to allow DTLS 1.0?

 

Cheers,

 

Andrei

____________________= ___________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
<= a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb">https://www.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
= --Apple-Mail-27146C86-9FC0-4BA9-A316-4E4A5626D117-- From nobody Wed May 7 04:15:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44B331A06CD for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 04:15:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l6l8F-_m5iK6 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 04:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out4.uio.no (mail-out4.uio.no [IPv6:2001:700:100:10::15]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 577A41A06D1 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 04:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-mx2.uio.no ([129.240.10.30]) by mail-out4.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Whzoi-0001VG-Cp for rtcweb@ietf.org; Wed, 07 May 2014 13:15:16 +0200 Received: from boomerang.ifi.uio.no ([129.240.68.135]) by mail-mx2.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) user michawe (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Whzoh-0003Bj-L0; Wed, 07 May 2014 13:15:16 +0200 From: Michael Welzl Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1283) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_37637BB9-DC47-4F69-A2A9-4453EFECEDB1" Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 13:15:15 +0200 References: <98B4752B-9609-4372-8145-5025992345DA@ifi.uio.no> To: rtcweb@ietf.org Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1283) X-UiO-SPF-Received: X-UiO-Ratelimit-Test: rcpts/h 4 msgs/h 2 sum rcpts/h 4 sum msgs/h 2 total rcpts 16143 max rcpts/h 44 ratelimit 0 X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-6.0, required=5.0, autolearn=disabled, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.051, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL=-5, uiobl=NO, uiouri=NO) X-UiO-Scanned: 0AEE8974A692F499A91A8E60B3DDE1B2CA15A51A X-UiO-SPAM-Test: remote_host: 129.240.68.135 spam_score: -59 maxlevel 99990 minaction 1 bait 0 mail/h: 2 total 5215 max/h 16 blacklist 0 greylist 1 ratelimit 0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/Z9xBkuRIBfNQBFaMu4X6Yx76GDw Cc: Safiqul Islam Subject: [rtcweb] Fwd: [rmcat] Update on coupled congestion control X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2014 11:15:23 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_37637BB9-DC47-4F69-A2A9-4453EFECEDB1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear all, We're doing some work on coupled congestion control in RMCAT which I = think is quite related to the ongoing discussion on prioritization in = this group. We just submitted an update of our draft: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-welzl-rmcat-coupled-cc-03 ... and the email below has some more information for those who might be = interested. Cheers, Michael Begin forwarded message: > From: Michael Welzl > Subject: [rmcat] Update on coupled congestion control > Date: 2. mai 2014 13:11:42 GMT+02:00 > To: rmcat WG >=20 > Dear all, >=20 > We'd like to share an update about our work on coupled congestion = control: we have developed and evaluated an algorithm that we think = works pretty well, and documented our results in this technical report: > http://safiquli.at.ifi.uio.no/paper/fse-tech-report.pdf >=20 > A shorter version of this document was accepted for publication in the = ACM SIGCOMM'14 Capacity Sharing Workshop. >=20 > The results were done with simulations, using TFRC (as a = representative for a multimedia-oriented congestion control scheme) and = RAP (as a rate-based AIMD scheme); we're currently working with LEDBAT = (as a representative for a delay-based scheme), and once we've covered = that, we'll approach real-life testing! >=20 > The updated algorithm (algorithm 2 in the document, on page 7) isn't = incorporated in draft-welzl-rmcat-coupled-cc yet, we're working on an = update of this draft and plan to submit it soon, stay tuned! >=20 > Any comments are very welcome! >=20 > Cheers, > Michael >=20 --Apple-Mail=_37637BB9-DC47-4F69-A2A9-4453EFECEDB1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii http:/= /tools.ietf.org/html/draft-welzl-rmcat-coupled-cc-03

... and the email below has some more information for those who might = be = interested.

Cheers,
Michael


Begin forwarded message:

From: Michael Welzl = <michawe@ifi.uio.no>
Subject: = [rmcat] Update on coupled congestion = control
Date: 2. mai 2014 13:11:42 GMT+02:00
To: rmcat WG <rmcat@ietf.org>

=
Dear = all,

We'd like to share an update about our work on = coupled congestion control: we have developed and evaluated an algorithm = that we think works pretty well, and documented our results in this = technical report:

A shorter version of this document was accepted for publication in the = ACM SIGCOMM'14 Capacity Sharing Workshop.

The = results were done with simulations, using TFRC (as a representative for = a multimedia-oriented congestion control scheme) and RAP (as a = rate-based AIMD scheme); we're currently working with LEDBAT (as a = representative for a delay-based scheme), and once we've covered that, = we'll approach real-life testing!

The updated = algorithm (algorithm 2 in the document, on page 7) isn't incorporated in = draft-welzl-rmcat-coupled-cc yet, we're working on an update of this = draft and plan to submit it soon, stay = tuned!

Any comments are very = welcome!

Cheers,
Michael

=

= --Apple-Mail=_37637BB9-DC47-4F69-A2A9-4453EFECEDB1-- From nobody Wed May 7 06:33:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77D871A02C5 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 06:33:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aTed3pJopyWo for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 06:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-2.cisco.com (alln-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.142.89]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8955E1A0072 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 06:33:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=398; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1399469579; x=1400679179; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=heNc+FMEMymTNhJqcpwxGDVWRpTB/s4Zh1hSdy3Mvmg=; b=aHG38Vw1xEsIpB6SsVdUAZMfQrKw9HzrsdOksAnYQo+Do2ox2sncFoOQ 4hUvq297AUwbLJfULQHSl0XvtTtZgvcTiIsZljtUdykL1tmcbcqCpJVdO X6IejmJIxSo0MAiABAnRGTkgHGbzZHhtXa04UdJmmHNBxoALV2fPtgD7x Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AnsIADA1alOtJA2N/2dsb2JhbABagwaBJ6sBAQEBBQGaDgGBGxZ0giUBAQEDAR0dPwULAgEINhAhESUCBA4FiC0DCQjIfA2GSBeFVoZlgWQzB4MqgRUBA5dFgXKNGoVhgzSCLw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.97,1003,1389744000"; d="scan'208";a="41749185" Received: from alln-core-8.cisco.com ([173.36.13.141]) by alln-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 May 2014 13:32:59 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x09.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x09.cisco.com [173.37.183.83]) by alln-core-8.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s47DWwsW007628 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 May 2014 13:32:59 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com ([169.254.5.230]) by xhc-rcd-x09.cisco.com ([173.37.183.83]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Wed, 7 May 2014 08:32:58 -0500 From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 Thread-Index: AQHPafjcLwFWdkcjuk2D8XlTVj6lsQ== Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 13:32:58 +0000 Message-ID: <35F345EE-8782-4971-85DA-8955C2D19C02@cisco.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.20.249.164] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <885C9698427B2943A94B73D033B29CEB@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/u5NYyHS6KMAkgdQabKPGCwzBNL4 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2014 13:33:04 -0000 If you have reviewed this draft and have no comments, please let us know th= e chairs know that you reviewed it. Thanks On Apr 24, 2014, at 9:13 AM, Ted Hardie wrote: > This begins a working group last call on draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13; = please review the document and provide comments to the list by May 9, 2014. >=20 > thanks, >=20 > Ted, Cullen, Sean From nobody Wed May 7 12:26:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B5441A08BB for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 12:26:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5EI0mJYfkNaZ for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 12:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x22b.google.com (mail-we0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34D0A1A08B6 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 12:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f171.google.com with SMTP id w62so1493445wes.16 for ; Wed, 07 May 2014 12:25:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=igZ1NkY5gmx1HBPWmyFz0LLHdKoiWOkQu1+9WRGuhoQ=; b=GYqv0pDYGFTLtnhXRxahV/x16G8qJveQys63xolvmI2n1IgutBoceK9MOAdx9v9ptB YTAkSk9odoSCPA2QHugrZ6lAU3XlXRtUO6PD4blYh0CY+mmBgyCBrYgj19xJrdRep1Bi KdUvhJ6xr9Pk7nVGGbfGkmhdFnnTviZTnXv993DPvkSg9eMMpg+CWso3+Ay7J5fU+c/E zSdT0rSAt5xWhpJgIoW5lhV6W3r8cJ/dddF5ku1tZiK9CkZmK1WZM2jSB972cB8eIuxo mVMNc2HwRj2sep+dyNziS7coCXTEnYD/rca3bkz/MAL93HyJXRcFTr19ceeyiy8Ztu8S m1IA== X-Received: by 10.180.81.36 with SMTP id w4mr9113066wix.36.1399490753459; Wed, 07 May 2014 12:25:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.102.130 with HTTP; Wed, 7 May 2014 12:25:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Bernard Aboba Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 12:25:33 -0700 Message-ID: To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec550ac2439fc7504f8d4556a Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/rZgfHiWngZPza7RdehZ4010__xw Subject: [rtcweb] Review of draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2014 19:26:00 -0000 --bcaec550ac2439fc7504f8d4556a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Here are a few things that caught my eye in re-reading draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage: Circuit Breaker requirements Section 7.1 In the absence of a concrete congestion control algorithm, all WebRTC implementations MUST implement the RTP circuit breaker algorithm that is described in [I-D.ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers]. [BA] What does "concrete" mean here? There are a number of congestion control algorithms that one might or might not consider "concrete". Also at various meetings, I have heard people talk about implementation of Circuit Breakers along with congestion control algorithms. Personally, I would consider sender-side congestion control algorithms to qualify as "concrete", assuming that the algorithm could function adequately when interacting with standards-based implementations only supporting the functionality described in the RTP usage document (e.g. RTCP reports, etc.). I am not sure that receiver-side congestion control mechanisms should qualify as "concrete" if they require both sender and receiver to implement proprietary functionality for congestion control to function adequately. SDP dependencies Since WebRTC is signaling-independent, at various points in discussion of the RTP usage document, it has been pointed out that it is not appropriate to mandate SDP signaling. However, in re-reading the draft, a number of SDP mandates still remain. I'd like to see these changed to state the requirement more generically, with guidance provided on what to do if SDP signaling is used. Section 4.8 Implementations are REQUIRED to support signalled RTP synchronisation source (SSRC) identifiers, using the "a=ssrc:" SDP attribute defined in Section 4.1and Section 5 of [RFC5576] . Implementations MUST also support the "previous-ssrc" source attribute defined in Section 6.2 of [RFC5576] . Other per-SSRC attributes defined in [RFC5576 ] MAY be supported. Propose this be changed to: Implementations are REQUIRED to support signalled RTP synchronisation source (SSRC) identifiers. In an SDP context, this can be done using the "a=ssrc:" SDP attribute defined in Section 4.1and Section 5 of [RFC5576] in addition to the "previous-ssrc" source attribute defined in Section 6.2; other per-SSRC attributes defined in [RFC5576 ] MAY be supported. --bcaec550ac2439fc7504f8d4556a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here are a few things that caught my eye in re-readin= g draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage:

Circuit Breaker req= uirements

Section 7.1

=C2= =A0=C2=A0 In the absence of a concrete congestion control algorithm, all We= bRTC
=C2=A0=C2=A0 implementations MUST implement the RTP circuit breaker algorit= hm that
=C2=A0=C2=A0 is described in [I-D.ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers= ].

[BA] What does "concrete" mean here?=C2=A0 Th= ere are a number of congestion control algorithms that one might or might n= ot consider "concrete".=C2=A0 Also at various meetings, I have he= ard people talk about implementation of Circuit Breakers along with congest= ion control algorithms.=C2=A0

Personally, I would consider sender-side congestion con= trol algorithms to qualify as "concrete", assuming that the algor= ithm could function adequately when interacting with standards-based implem= entations only supporting the functionality described in the RTP usage docu= ment (e.g. RTCP reports, etc.).=C2=A0 I am not sure that receiver-side cong= estion control mechanisms should qualify as "concrete" if they re= quire both sender and receiver to implement proprietary functionality for c= ongestion control to function adequately.

SDP dependencies

Since WebRTC = is signaling-independent, at various points in discussion of the RTP usage = document, it has been pointed out that it is not appropriate to mandate SDP= signaling.=C2=A0 However, in re-reading the draft, a number of SDP mandate= s still remain.=C2=A0 I'd like to see these changed to state the requir= ement more generically, with guidance provided on what to do if SDP signali= ng is used.

Section 4.8

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Imple= mentations are REQUIRED to support signalled RTP synchronisation
=C2=A0= =C2=A0 source (SSRC) identifiers, using the "a=3Dssrc:" SDP attri= bute defined
=C2=A0=C2=A0 in Section 4.1<= /font> and Section=C2=A05 of [RFC5576].=C2=A0 Implemen= tations MUST also
=C2=A0=C2=A0 support the "previous-ssrc" source attribute defined= in Section=C2=A06.2 of [RFC5576].=C2=A0 Other per-SSRC attributes defined in [RFC5576] MAY be
=C2=A0=C2=A0 supported.

Propose this be changed to= :


=C2=A0=C2=A0 Implementations are REQUI= RED to support signalled RTP synchronisation
=C2=A0=C2=A0 source (SSRC) = identifiers.=C2=A0 In an SDP context, this can be done using the "a=3D= ssrc:" SDP attribute defined=C2=A0in Se= ction 4.1 and Section=C2=A05 of [RFC5576]=C2=A0= in addition to=C2=A0the "previous-ssrc" source attribute defined = in Section=C2=A06.2; other per-SSRC attribut= es defined in [RFC5576] MAY be supported.


--bcaec550ac2439fc7504f8d4556a-- From nobody Thu May 8 03:46:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 964DC1A0297 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 03:46:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YToQcUa5oDH5 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 03:46:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [93.93.130.6]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6CE61A0188 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 03:46:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [130.209.247.112] (port=59962 helo=mangole.dcs.gla.ac.uk) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WiLpn-0001kX-I6; Thu, 08 May 2014 11:45:52 +0100 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7F8921AC-88CD-4C9B-B957-AFEEBD685F8A" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 11:45:49 +0100 Message-Id: References: To: Bernard Aboba X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: -28 X-Mythic-Debug: Threshold = On = Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/bwmpXZDADBDUhfSJGSmvKfE4gZI Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Review of draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 10:46:05 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7F8921AC-88CD-4C9B-B957-AFEEBD685F8A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 On 7 May 2014, at 20:25, Bernard Aboba wrote: > Here are a few things that caught my eye in re-reading = draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage: >=20 > Circuit Breaker requirements >=20 > Section 7.1 >=20 > In the absence of a concrete congestion control algorithm, all = WebRTC > implementations MUST implement the RTP circuit breaker algorithm = that > is described in [I-D.ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers]. >=20 > [BA] What does "concrete" mean here? There are a number of congestion = control algorithms that one might or might not consider "concrete". = Also at various meetings, I have heard people talk about implementation = of Circuit Breakers along with congestion control algorithms.=20 The fix here is to delete =93In the absence of a concrete congestion = control algorithm, all=94, leaving the text as =93WebRTC implementations = MUST implement the RTP circuit breaker=85=94 since as you note, we want = the circuit breaker even if there is congestion control. > Personally, I would consider sender-side congestion control algorithms = to qualify as "concrete", assuming that the algorithm could function = adequately when interacting with standards-based implementations only = supporting the functionality described in the RTP usage document (e.g. = RTCP reports, etc.). I am not sure that receiver-side congestion = control mechanisms should qualify as =93concrete" if they require both = sender and receiver to implement proprietary functionality for = congestion control to function adequately. By =93concrete=94, I just meant something where you could point to an = RFC and say =93there is agreement that this is a reasonable choice for a = congestion control algorithm=94.=20 > SDP dependencies >=20 > Since WebRTC is signaling-independent, at various points in discussion = of the RTP usage document, it has been pointed out that it is not = appropriate to mandate SDP signaling. However, in re-reading the draft, = a number of SDP mandates still remain. I=92d like to see these changed = to state the requirement more generically, with guidance provided on = what to do if SDP signaling is used. Other than that in Section 4.8 you highlight below, did you find any = other specific places that need changing? I had thought we=92d fixed = these already, but if you have any we missed, please let us know. > Section 4.8 >=20 > Implementations are REQUIRED to support signalled RTP = synchronisation > source (SSRC) identifiers, using the "a=3Dssrc:" SDP attribute = defined > in Section 4.1 and Section 5 of [RFC5576]. Implementations MUST = also > support the "previous-ssrc" source attribute defined in Section 6.2 = of [RFC5576]. Other per-SSRC attributes defined in [RFC5576] MAY be > supported. >=20 > Propose this be changed to: >=20 >=20 > Implementations are REQUIRED to support signalled RTP = synchronisation > source (SSRC) identifiers. In an SDP context, this can be done = using the =93a=3Dssrc:" SDP attribute defined in Section 4.1 and Section = 5 of [RFC5576] in addition to the "previous-ssrc" source attribute = defined in Section 6.2; other per-SSRC attributes defined in [RFC5576] = MAY be supported. I rephrased this slightly as: Implementations are REQUIRED to support signalled RTP synchronisation source (SSRC) identifiers. If SDP is used, this = MUST be done using the "a=3Dssrc:" SDP attribute defined in Section = 4.1 and Section 5 of and the "previous-ssrc" = source attribute defined in Section 6.2 of ; = other per-SSRC attributes defined in MAY be supported. Colin --=20 Colin Perkins http://csperkins.org/ --Apple-Mail=_7F8921AC-88CD-4C9B-B957-AFEEBD685F8A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 On 7 = May 2014, at 20:25, Bernard Aboba <bernard.aboba@gmail.com> = wrote:
Here are a = few things that caught my eye in re-reading = draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage:

Circuit Breaker = requirements

Section = 7.1

   In the absence of a concrete = congestion control algorithm, all WebRTC
   implementations MUST implement the RTP circuit breaker = algorithm that
   is described in [I-D.ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers]. =

[BA] What does "concrete" mean here?  There are = a number of congestion control algorithms that one might or might not = consider "concrete".  Also at various meetings, I have heard people = talk about implementation of Circuit Breakers along with congestion = control = algorithms. 

The fix = here is to delete =93In the absence of a concrete congestion control = algorithm, all=94, leaving the text as =93WebRTC implementations MUST = implement the RTP circuit breaker=85=94 since as you note, we want the = circuit breaker even if there is congestion = control.

Personally, I would consider sender-side congestion = control algorithms to qualify as "concrete", assuming that the algorithm = could function adequately when interacting with standards-based = implementations only supporting the functionality described in the RTP = usage document (e.g. RTCP reports, etc.).  I am not sure that = receiver-side congestion control mechanisms should qualify as =93concrete"= if they require both sender and receiver to implement proprietary = functionality for congestion control to function = adequately.

By =93concrete=94,= I just meant something where you could point to an RFC and say =93there = is agreement that this is a reasonable choice for a congestion control = algorithm=94. 

SDP dependencies

Since WebRTC = is signaling-independent, at various points in discussion of the RTP = usage document, it has been pointed out that it is not appropriate to = mandate SDP signaling.  However, in re-reading the draft, a number = of SDP mandates still remain.  I=92d like to see these changed to = state the requirement more generically, with guidance provided on what = to do if SDP signaling is = used.

Other than that in = Section 4.8 you highlight below, did you find any other specific places = that need changing? I had thought we=92d fixed these already, but if you = have any we missed, please let us know.

Section = 4.8

   Implementations are REQUIRED = to support signalled RTP synchronisation
   source (SSRC) = identifiers, using the "a=3Dssrc:" SDP attribute defined
   = in Section 4.1 and Section 5 of [RFC5576].  = Implementations MUST also
   support the "previous-ssrc" source attribute defined in Section 6.2 of [RFC5576].  Other per-SSRC attributes defined in = [RFC5576] MAY be
   supported.

Propose this be changed = to:


   Implementations are = REQUIRED to support signalled RTP synchronisation
   source = (SSRC) identifiers.  In an SDP context, this can be done using the = =93a=3Dssrc:" SDP attribute defined in Section 4.1 and Section 5 of [RFC5576] in = addition to the "previous-ssrc" source attribute defined in Section 6.2; other per-SSRC attributes = defined in [RFC5576] MAY be supported.

I rephrased this slightly = as:

        = <t>Implementations are REQUIRED to support signalled = RTP
        synchronisation source (SSRC) = identifiers. If SDP is used, this MUST
      =   be done using the "a=3Dssrc:" SDP attribute defined in Section = 4.1 and
        Section 5 of <xref = target=3D"RFC5576"/> and the "previous-ssrc" source
  =       attribute defined in Section 6.2 of <xref = target=3D"RFC5576"/>; other
        = per-SSRC attributes defined in <xref target=3D"RFC5576"/> MAY = be
        = supported.</t>

Colin


-- 
Colin Perkins



= --Apple-Mail=_7F8921AC-88CD-4C9B-B957-AFEEBD685F8A-- From nobody Thu May 8 05:43:15 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F096E1A0549 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 05:43:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dk2XAq1PQ9Xk for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 05:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pd0-x22f.google.com (mail-pd0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::22f]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C9EA1A0515 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 05:43:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pd0-f175.google.com with SMTP id x10so2281221pdj.20 for ; Thu, 08 May 2014 05:43:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:cc:from:subject:date:to; bh=jOk/xJs6sdEWWW+z/xM0SR2JWU4/pMB6/yZEE8SnUk0=; b=eYoI8nI/L/LQVik5WKlpxwc2ydbHuzd13dK9+haMIC4Bn80pZ/ktU0l2KTIsL6NcfQ xOy2Ndy3FveEwQvwW2F2BppB6Ob1UoYhPamoVTj0yHFH31Af1B5NDp80EJmpJywnYPIa /+iQJvN3Yjzmllhe5tAySJomL50UDLQdjceBwnrXgxdVr4TEJnhJCJyO56ZRefY+nL4C i3X8eWQfl3mqmOrPOpzW0B7TFZufi/9JjtrNumAKfVWYfqDl0YJZCdCq/alSKUUz1ZdT x0yhQ42klDBmRr0JD21CiqV0fJGqvpQI3kidJefMmd7MWpm91et2V2Wp22SXojjcN2rU 7AYw== X-Received: by 10.66.147.130 with SMTP id tk2mr7095750pab.125.1399552986652; Thu, 08 May 2014 05:43:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.108] (c-71-227-237-49.hsd1.wa.comcast.net. [71.227.237.49]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id gg3sm1917519pbc.34.2014.05.08.05.43.03 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 08 May 2014 05:43:03 -0700 (PDT) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPad Mail (11D201) From: Bernard Aboba Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 05:43:04 -0700 To: Colin Perkins Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/PvchB9u6E9qugjnWaCbydvuVy-U Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Review of draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 12:43:14 -0000 > On May 8, 2014, at 3:45, Colin Perkins wrote: >=20 > The fix here is to delete =E2=80=9CIn the absence of a concrete congestion= control algorithm, all=E2=80=9D, leaving the text as =E2=80=9CWebRTC implem= entations MUST implement the RTP circuit breaker=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D since as y= ou note, we want the circuit breaker even if there is congestion control. [BA] The question I have is whether this would be widely implemented. The Ci= rcuit Breaker algorithm pauses sessions, but has no mechanism to resume them= , so it increases brittleness.=20 From nobody Thu May 8 05:54:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0BBB1A04B9 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 05:54:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lq9nlGXj5WPQ for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 05:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 947A51A03DC for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 05:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [82.132.222.70] (port=13631 helo=[10.168.3.228]) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WiNq6-0008I2-L4; Thu, 08 May 2014 13:54:21 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Colin Perkins X-Mailer: iPad Mail (11D201) In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 13:54:08 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2CE99351-87F9-4815-913A-092C1B703D8A@csperkins.org> References: To: Bernard Aboba X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: -28 X-Mythic-Debug: Threshold = On = Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/OV9PPc1OF2nG2wHmLGK3bBHzl8s Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Review of draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 12:54:28 -0000 On 8 May 2014, at 13:43, Bernard Aboba wrote: >> On May 8, 2014, at 3:45, Colin Perkins wrote: >> The fix here is to delete =E2=80=9CIn the absence of a concrete congestio= n control algorithm, all=E2=80=9D, leaving the text as =E2=80=9CWebRTC imple= mentations MUST implement the RTP circuit breaker=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D since as= you note, we want the circuit breaker even if there is congestion control. >=20 > [BA] The question I have is whether this would be widely implemented. The C= ircuit Breaker algorithm pauses sessions, but has no mechanism to resume the= m, so it increases brittleness.=20 The circuit breaker is a mechanism of last resort. If we've designed it corr= ectly, it will only stop sessions that are otherwise unusable. The resume me= chanism is the redial button on the user interface. With a reasonable conges= tion control algorithm, the circuit breaker should never be triggered. Colin From nobody Thu May 8 07:49:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E64AD1A0085 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 07:49:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9kJAan_tINg7 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 07:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x22c.google.com (mail-ob0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 589001A0077 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 07:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-f172.google.com with SMTP id wp18so3184655obc.31 for ; Thu, 08 May 2014 07:49:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=PyO6d668t4Eln/2+gCVANkCXBuJNpGnzFVmVkZN1tek=; b=nOWqWiguBRtaTjgCLrJue6iFznvKqOopvCf+j/15FGR8AYfpkfl56ir6Rukb4DIsMD Q+alv6VD/UdHngiwD0HhOupSBQMog9Tk/w+0tz2YQYngWdQ0q7r3//fzBRg6KtbCeRPA kraHG0Vh1SFDvfJBhUCWlns6P/vwmbDESkvv4KpC4nlgnVQITuo8/95UaOodOgGAY5CZ RlEYhPvKOkLhdzDcklLDPzUbvRT79NgFLVQe/gFLcbW+RZblNPLVMKM9Lr0LzjJZPMjt GBJFsvXdX+IjGOJpkgP4Y8jYbVcZsd7qlXuxEej7lsgUQqBvi7O1RberUb1awTaeQYL3 s3hA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.102.99 with SMTP id fn3mr5177939obb.57.1399560568806; Thu, 08 May 2014 07:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.76.158.199 with HTTP; Thu, 8 May 2014 07:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 07:49:28 -0700 Message-ID: From: Jim Spring To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013d0d688ba20004f8e49623 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/-ObEB6WdKu2dhibUcmA_XmOHCbg Subject: [rtcweb] Review of draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 14:49:38 -0000 --089e013d0d688ba20004f8e49623 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 4.5. RTP and RTCP Multiplexing .... Note that the use of RTP and RTCP multiplexed onto a single transport-layer flow ensures that there is occasional traffic sent on that port, even if there is no active media traffic. This can be useful to keep NAT bindings alive, and is the recommend method for application level keep-alives of RTP sessions [RFC6263]. [JS] In the case of MUX, this may be the recommended method per RFC6263 for keeping NAT bindings alive, but for WebRTC, we have also talked about using STUN connectivity checks [draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness]. It seems a bit odd having multiple methods specified. If we adopt draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness, can the above be removed or a section added to note the new draft. 4.7. Symmetric RTP/RTCP [JS] General question / comment - most other sections of the document make a distinction when a WebRTC talks to another WebRTC client and when talking to a legacy one. This section does not, are there concerns where a legacy client will not support Symmetric RTP/RTCP per RFC4961? 4.8. Choice of RTP Synchronisation Source (SSRC) Implementations are REQUIRED to support signalled RTP synchronisation source (SSRC) identifiers, using the "a=ssrc:" SDP attribute defined in Section 4.1 and Section 5 of [RFC5576]. [JS] This section appears to mandate SDP for signaling, other sections use SDP as an example for signaling. Recommend reworking this to not require specifics about SDP. 7.1. Boundary Conditions and Circuit Breakers In the absence of a concrete congestion control algorithm, all WebRTC implementations MUST implement the RTP circuit breaker algorithm that is described in [I-D.ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers]. [JS] At IETF 89, my understanding was that there were concerns around the use of circuit breakers and the impact on call quality even in cases of very minimal packet loss. Missing history/context, are circuit breakers a "MUST"? 10. Signalling Considerations RTP Profile: The name of the RTP profile to be used in session. The RTP/AVP [RFC3551] and RTP/AVPF [RFC4585] profiles can interoperate on basic level, as can their secure variants RTP/SAVP [RFC3711] and RTP/SAVPF [RFC5124]. The secure variants of the profiles do not directly interoperate with the non-secure variants, due to the presence of additional header fields for authentication in SRTP packets and cryptographic transformation of the payload. WebRTC requires the use of the RTP/SAVPF profile, and this MUST be signalled if SDP is used. Interworking functions might transform this into the RTP/SAVP profile for a legacy use case, by indicating to the WebRTC end-point that the RTP/SAVPF is used, and limiting the usage of the "a=rtcp-fb:" attribute to indicate a trr-int value of 4 seconds. [JS] Another example assuming SDP for signaling. RFC5124 calls out other possible signaling options as well. 11. WebRTC API Considerations [JS] General note - this section as well as Section 12 had sections where the grammar seemed off a bit. Sometimes whole paragraphs come across as a bit awkward. Due to time constraints, I will call out the ones that immediately stood out. I'm happy to help with some text rewrite, but not until later this week/early next week due to time. Figure 1 on Page 31 and Figure 2 on Page 32 should be centered. Specific corrections: The same MediaStreamTrack can also be included in multiple MediaStreams, thus multiple sets of MediaStreams can implicitly need to use the same synchronisation base. To ensure that this works in all cases, and don't forces a end-point to change synchronisation base and CNAME in the middle of a ongoing delivery of any packet streams, which would cause media disruption; all MediaStreamTracks and their associated SSRCs originating from the same end-point needs to be sent using the same CNAME within one RTCPeerConnection. This is motivating the strong recommendation in Section 4.9 to only use a single CNAME. [JS] The same MediaStreamTrack can also be included in multiple MediaStreams, thus multiple sets of MediaStreams can implicitly need to use the same synchronisation base. To ensure that this works in all cases, and *doesn't force an* end-point to change synchronisation base and CNAME in the middle of *the* delivery of any *ongoing* packet streams, which would cause media disruption; all MediaStreamTracks and their associated SSRCs originating from the same end-point *need* to be sent using the same CNAME within one RTCPeerConnection. This is motivating the strong recommendation in Section 4.9 to only use a single CNAME. ----- The requirement on using the same CNAME for all SSRCs that originates from the same end-point, does not require middleboxes that forwards traffic from multiple end-points to only use a single CNAME. [JS] The requirement on using the same CNAME for all SSRCs that *originate* from the same end-point does not require *a middlebox* that forwards traffic from multiple end-points to only use a single CNAME. ----- Different CNAMEs normally need to be used for different RTCPeerConnection instances, as specified in Section 4.9. Having two communication sessions with the same CNAME could enable tracking of a user or device across different services (see Section 4.4.1 of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-security] for details). A web application can request that the CNAMEs used in different RTCPeerConnection within a same-orign context to be the same, this allow for synchronization of the endpoint's RTP packet streams across the different RTCPeerConnections. [JS] Different CNAMEs normally need to be used for different RTCPeerConnection instances, as specified in Section 4.9. Having two communication sessions with the same CNAME could enable tracking of a user or device across different services (see Section 4.4.1 of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-security] for details). A web application can request that the CNAMEs used in different RTCPeerConnection *objects (within a* * same-orign context) be* the same, this allow for synchronization of the endpoint's RTP packet streams across the different RTCPeerConnections. ----- Note: The motivation for supporting reception of multiple CNAMEs are to allow for forward compatibility with any future changes.... [JS] Note: The motivation for supporting reception of multiple CNAMEs *is* to allow for forward compatibility with any future changes.... ----- To separate media with different purposes: An end-point might want to send RTP packet streams that have different purposes on different RTP sessions, to make it easy for the peer device to distinguish them. For example, some centralised multiparty conferencing systems display the active speaker in high resolution, but show low resolution "thumbnails" of other participants. Such systems might configure the end-points to send simulcast high- and low-resolution versions of their video using separate RTP sessions, to simplify the operation of the RTP middlebox. In the WebRTC context this is currently possible to accomplished by establishing multiple WebRTC MediaStreamTracks that have the same media source in one (or more) RTCPeerConnection. [JS] To separate media with different purposes: An end-point might want to send RTP packet streams that have different purposes on different RTP sessions, to make it easy for the peer device to distinguish them. For example, some centralised multiparty conferencing systems display the active speaker in high resolution, but show low resolution "thumbnails" of other participants. Such systems might configure the end-points to send simulcast high- and low-resolution versions of their video using separate RTP sessions, to simplify the operation of the RTP middlebox. *In the WebRTC context this is currently possible by establishing *multiple WebRTC MediaStreamTracks that have the same media source in one (or more) RTCPeerConnection. ----- Experience with the Mbone tools (experimental RTP- based multicast conferencing tools from the late 1990s) has showed that RTCP reception quality reports for third parties can usefully be presented to the users in a way that helps them understand asymmetric network problems, and the approach of using separate RTP sessions prevents this. [JS] Experience with the Mbone tools (experimental RTP- based multicast conferencing tools from the late 1990s) has showed that RTCP reception quality reports for third parties can* be presented to users* in a way that helps them understand asymmetric network problems, and the approach of using separate RTP sessions prevents this. ----- There are various methods of implementation for the middlebox. If implemented as a standard RTP mixer or translator, a single RTP session will extend across the middlebox and encompass all the end-points in one multi-party session. Other types of middlebox might use separate RTP sessions between each end-point and the middlebox. A common aspect is that these RTP middleboxes can use a number of tools to control the media encoding provided by a WebRTC end-point. This includes functions like requesting breaking the encoding chain and have the encoder produce a so called Intra frame. Another is limiting the bit-rate of a given stream to better suit the mixer view of the multiple down-streams. Others are controlling the most suitable frame-rate, picture resolution, the trade-off between frame-rate and spatial quality. The middlebox gets the significant responsibility to correctly perform congestion control, source identification, manage synchronisation while providing the application with suitable media optimizations. The middlebox is also has to be a trusted node when it comes to security, since it manipulates either the RTP header or the media itself (or both) received from one end- point, before sending it on towards the end-point(s), thus they need to be able to decrypt and then encrypt it before sending it out. [JS] There are various methods of implementation for the middlebox. If implemented as a standard RTP mixer or translator, a single RTP session will extend across the middlebox and encompass all the end-points in one multi-party session. Other types of *middleboxes* might use separate RTP sessions between each end-point and the middlebox. A common aspect is that these RTP middleboxes can use a number of tools to control the media encoding provided by a WebRTC end-point. This includes functions like requesting *the breaking of the* encoding chain and have the encoder produce a so called Intra frame. Another is limiting the bit-rate of a given stream to better suit the mixer view of the multiple down-streams. Others are controlling the most suitable frame-rate, picture resolution, the trade-off between frame-rate and spatial quality. The middlebox *has* the responsibility to correctly perform congestion control, source identification, manage synchronisation while providing the application with suitable media optimizations. The middlebox also has to be a trusted node when it comes to security, since it manipulates either the RTP header or the media itself (or both) received from one end- point, before sending it on towards the *other *end-point(s), thus they need to be able to decrypt and then *re-encrypt the stream* before sending it out. ----- For cryptographic verification of the source SRTP would require additional security mechanisms, for example TESLA for SRTP [RFC4383], that are not part of the base WebRTC standards. [JS NOTES] - This is the first I've seen mention of TESLA and RFC4383 in regard to WebRTC security. My gut tells me rather than referencing a particular doc here, there should be a relevant section of [draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch] sited. --089e013d0d688ba20004f8e49623 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 
4.5.  RTP and RTCP Multiplexing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0....
   Note that the use of RTP and RT=
CP multiplexed onto a single
   transport-layer flow ensures that there is occasional traffic sent on
   that port, even if there is no active media traffic.  This can be
   useful to keep NAT bindings alive, and is the recommend method for
   application level keep-alives of RTP sessions [RFC6263].
[JS] In the case of MUX, this may be the recommended method per RFC626=
3 for keeping NAT bindings alive, but for WebRTC, we have also talked about=
 using STUN connectivity checks [draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-fres=
hness].  It seems a bit odd having multipl=
e methods specified.  If we adopt draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-fre=
shness, can the above be removed or a section added to note the new draft.<=
/pre>


4.7.  Symmetric RTP/RTCP

[JS] General=
 question / comment - most other sections of the document make a distinctio=
n when a WebRTC talks to another WebRTC client and when talking to a legacy=
 one.  This section does not, are there concerns where a legacy client will=
 not support Symmetric RTP/RTCP per RFC4961?



4.8.  Choice of RTP Synchronisation Source (=
SSRC)


   Implementa=
tions are REQUIRED to support signalled RTP synchronisation
   source (SSRC) identifiers, using the "a=3Dssrc:" SDP attribute=
 defined
   in Section 4.1 and Section 5 of [RFC5576].
[JS] This section a=
ppears to mandate SDP for signaling, other sections use SDP as an example f=
or signaling.  Recommend reworking this to not require specifics about SDP.=





7.1.  Boundary Conditions and Circuit Breakers

 =
  In the absence of a concrete congestion control algorithm, all WebRTC
   implementations MUST implement the RTP circuit breaker algorithm that
   is described in [I-D.ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers].
[JS] =
At IETF 89, my understanding was that there were concerns around the use of=
 circuit breakers and the impact on call quality even in cases of very mini=
mal packet loss.  Missing history/context, are circuit breakers a "MUS=
T"?  




10.  Signalling Considerations
   RTP Profile:  The name of=
 the RTP profile to be used in session.  The
      RTP/AVP [RFC3551] and RTP/AVPF [RFC4585] profiles can interoperate
      on basic level, as can their secure variants RTP/SAVP [RFC3711]
      and RTP/SAVPF [RFC5124].  The secure variants of the profiles do
      not directly interoperate with the non-secure variants, due to the
      presence of additional header fields for authentication in SRTP
      packets and cryptographic transformation of the payload.  WebRTC
      requires the use of the RTP/SAVPF profile, and this MUST be
      signalled if SDP is used.  Interworking functions might transform
      this into the RTP/SAVP profile for a legacy use case, by
      indicating to the WebRTC end-point that the RTP/SAVPF is used, and
      limiting the usage of the "a=3Drtcp-fb:" attribute to indic=
ate a
      trr-int value of 4 seconds.
[JS] Another example assuming S=
DP for signaling.  RFC5124 calls out other possible signaling options as we=
ll.


11.  WebRTC API Considerations

[JS] General note - this section as well as Section 12 had=
 sections where the grammar seemed off a bit.  Sometimes whole paragraphs c=
ome across as a bit awkward.  Due to time constraints, I will call out the =
ones that immediately stood out.  I'm happy to help with some text rewr=
ite, but not until later this week/early next week due to time.



Figure 1 on Page 31 and Figure 2 on Page 32 should be c=
entered.

Specific corrections:

   The same =
MediaStreamTrack can also be included in multiple
   MediaStreams, thus multiple sets of MediaStreams can implicitly need
   to use the same synchronisation base.  To ensure that this works in
   all cases, and don't forces a end-point to change synchronisation
   base and CNAME in the middle of a ongoing delivery of any packet
   streams, which would cause media disruption; all MediaStreamTracks
   and their associated SSRCs originating from the same end-point needs
   to be sent using the same CNAME within one RTCPeerConnection.  This
   is motivating the strong recommendation in Section 4.9 to only use a
   single CNAME.

   [JS]
   The same MediaStreamTrac=
k can also be included in multiple
   MediaStreams, thus multiple sets of MediaStreams can implicitly need
   to use the same synchronisation base.  To ensure that this works in
   all cases, and doesn't force an end-point to change synchroni=
sation
   base and CNAME in the middle of the delivery of any ongoing packet
   streams, which would cause media disruption; all MediaStreamTracks
   and their associated SSRCs originating from the same end-point need
   to be sent using the same CNAME within one RTCPeerConnection.  This
   is motivating the strong recommendation in Section 4.9 to only use a
   single CNAME.
   -----

      The requirement on u=
sing the same CNAME for all SSRCs that
      originates from the same end-point, does not require middleboxes
      that forwards traffic from multiple end-points to only use a
      single CNAME.
 
   [JS]
      The requirement on us=
ing the same CNAME for all SSRCs that
      originate from the same end-point does not require a middle=
box
      that forwards traffic from multiple end-points to only use a
      single CNAME.
   -----

   Different CNAMEs nor=
mally need to be used for different
   RTCPeerConnection instances, as specified in Section 4.9.  Having two
   communication sessions with the same CNAME could enable tracking of a
   user or device across different services (see Section 4.4.1 of
   [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-security] for details).  A web application can
   request that the CNAMEs used in different RTCPeerConnection within a
   same-orign context to be the same, this allow for synchronization of
   the endpoint's RTP packet streams across the different
   RTCPeerConnections.
   [JS]
   Different =
CNAMEs normally need to be used for different
   RTCPeerConnection instances, as specified in Section 4.9.  Having two
   communication sessions with the same CNAME could enable tracking of a
   user or device across different services (see Section 4.4.1 of
   [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-security] for details).  A web application can
   request that the CNAMEs used in different RTCPeerConnection objects=
=C2=A0(within a
   same-orign context) be the same, this allow for synchroniz=
ation of
   the endpoint's RTP packet streams across the different
   RTCPeerConnections.
   
   -----

      Note: =
The motivation for supporting reception of multiple CNAMEs
      are to allow for forward compatibility with any future changes....
   [JS]
      Note: The motivation for supporting reception of multiple CNAMEs
      is to allow for forward compatibility with any future changes.=
...
      
   -----

      To separate media with different pur=
poses:  An end-point might want
      to send RTP packet streams that have different purposes on
      different RTP sessions, to make it easy for the peer device to
      distinguish them.  For example, some centralised multiparty
      conferencing systems display the active speaker in high
      resolution, but show low resolution "thumbnails" of other
      participants.  Such systems might configure the end-points to send
      simulcast high- and low-resolution versions of their video using
      separate RTP sessions, to simplify the operation of the RTP
      middlebox.  In the WebRTC context this is currently possible to
      accomplished by establishing multiple WebRTC MediaStreamTracks
      that have the same media source in one (or more)
      RTCPeerConnection.
  [JS]
      To sep=
arate media with different purposes:  An end-point might want
      to send RTP packet streams that have different purposes on
      different RTP sessions, to make it easy for the peer device to
      distinguish them.  For example, some centralised multiparty
      conferencing systems display the active speaker in high
      resolution, but show low resolution "thumbnails" of other
      participants.  Such systems might configure the end-points to send
      simulcast high- and low-resolution versions of their video using
      separate RTP sessions, to simplify the operation of the RTP
      middlebox.  In the WebRTC context this is currently possible
      by establishing multiple WebRTC MediaStreamTracks
      that have the same media source in one (or more)
      RTCPeerConnection.

   -----
      Experience with th=
e Mbone tools (experimental RTP-
      based multicast conferencing tools from the late 1990s) has showed
      that RTCP reception quality reports for third parties can usefully
      be presented to the users in a way that helps them understand
      asymmetric network problems, and the approach of using separate
      RTP sessions prevents this.
   [JS]

      Expe=
rience with the Mbone tools (experimental RTP-
      based multicast conferencing tools from the late 1990s) has showed
      that RTCP reception quality reports for third parties can
      be presented to users in a way that helps them understand
      asymmetric network problems, and the approach of using separate
      RTP sessions prevents this.

   -----

      There=
 are various methods of implementation for the middlebox.  If
      implemented as a standard RTP mixer or translator, a single RTP
      session will extend across the middlebox and encompass all the
      end-points in one multi-party session.  Other types of middlebox
      might use separate RTP sessions between each end-point and the
      middlebox.  A common aspect is that these RTP middleboxes can use
      a number of tools to control the media encoding provided by a
      WebRTC end-point.  This includes functions like requesting
      breaking the encoding chain and have the encoder produce a so
      called Intra frame.  Another is limiting the bit-rate of a given
      stream to better suit the mixer view of the multiple down-streams.
      Others are controlling the most suitable frame-rate, picture
      resolution, the trade-off between frame-rate and spatial quality.
      The middlebox gets the significant responsibility to correctly
      perform congestion control, source identification, manage
      synchronisation while providing the application with suitable
      media optimizations.  The middlebox is also has to be a trusted
      node when it comes to security, since it manipulates either the
      RTP header or the media itself (or both) received from one end-
      point, before sending it on towards the end-point(s), thus they
      need to be able to decrypt and then encrypt it before sending it
      out.
   [JS]

      There are various methods of impl=
ementation for the middlebox.  If
      implemented as a standard RTP mixer or translator, a single RTP
      session will extend across the middlebox and encompass all the
      end-points in one multi-party session.  Other types of middleboxes=

      might use separate RTP sessions between each end-point and the
      middlebox.  A common aspect is that these RTP middleboxes can use
      a number of tools to control the media encoding provided by a
      WebRTC end-point.  This includes functions like requesting the
      breaking of the encoding chain and have the encoder produce a so
      called Intra frame.  Another is limiting the bit-rate of a given
      stream to better suit the mixer view of the multiple down-streams.
      Others are controlling the most suitable frame-rate, picture
      resolution, the trade-off between frame-rate and spatial quality.
      The middlebox has the responsibility to correctly
      perform congestion control, source identification, manage
      synchronisation while providing the application with suitable
      media optimizations.  The middlebox also has to be a trusted
      node when it comes to security, since it manipulates either the
      RTP header or the media itself (or both) received from one end-
      point, before sending it on towards the other end-point(s), th=
us they
      need to be able to decrypt and then re-encrypt the stream befo=
re sending it
      out.
   -----

=

      For cryptographic verification of the source
      SRTP would require additional security mechanisms, for example
      TESLA for SRTP [RFC4383], that are not part of the base WebRTC
      standards.
   [JS NOTES] -  This is the first I've seen=
 mention of TESLA and RFC4383 in regard
   to WebRTC security.  My gut tells me rather than referencing a par=
ticular doc


   here, there should be a relevant section o=
f [draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch] sited.

=
--089e013d0d688ba20004f8e49623-- From nobody Thu May 8 08:32:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F36A51A0052 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 08:32:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4uMPVlDSGlwG for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 08:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout-08.mxes.net (mxout-08.mxes.net [216.86.168.183]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 825391A004E for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 08:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.4.100] (unknown [128.107.239.234]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 23A11509B8 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 11:32:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Cullen Jennings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 09:32:25 -0600 To: rtcweb@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/caZUSz5kkuljCcnB1KHf-g5Q-oM Subject: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 15:32:36 -0000 Below is a the current agenda for the upcoming RTCWEB Interim = (essentially, we have the morning sessions for the three days May 19, = May 20, May 21 2014). If you have not filled in your participation in = the doodle poll, please do so at: http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn. = That helps us plan space and food as well as have badges ready. Thanks Ted, Sean, Cullen Interim Meeting RTCWEB May 2014 http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn Day 1 Admin Trivia (15m) - Chairs RTP + Media (75m) Magnus Westerlund and Harald Alvestrand=20 draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-05 draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-03 JSEP (2.5h) Eric Rescorla draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06 Day 2 Data Channel (4h) Randell Jesup draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-08 draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-04 Day 3 Security ( 2h ) Eric Rescorla draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06 draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09 ALPN ( 15m ) Martin Thomson=20 draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn-00 Consent Freshness ( 30m) Martin Thomson draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02 Matters arising from webrtc meetings ( remaining time)=20 From nobody Thu May 8 09:02:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CCF61A007B for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 09:02:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DQGyyehYUTth for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 09:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x233.google.com (mail-we0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FD641A006C for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 09:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f179.google.com with SMTP id q59so2678049wes.24 for ; Thu, 08 May 2014 09:02:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=gHPOt/XcxH0z7CnpMG4DKrJ/VSmgCzGBJQxvJLWkv0c=; b=eoba5CcWCoKhcWZ2baYnXbPWBj9Ik2lFwOHAIdh2mCNhcrkI/nMWQUOin5blLO8vG1 EUW7DwxNWl4Px95u8t4si5zz/6DqeKZL30C6jB1Ibj+KefWDZFQTY/ukPmSD/Mwv4FGv krcdO9zFRlYhmkH6rNg12AD/BQsSclwZc0VMNK7sxQMv+93t0pJu/XVl7sEFB/k1e8gj EjYHgdN8gfSkDgTx3Zm0AmjyL+QtM3JYnTwXNsrZUB5Ank8JSZGVhDos6x6zGTgX0qbZ bgUq02YHlBFUDllkeXdLbF5pfuwGksDYbhH46BixsB80+sPouuftrLfyHH00UuC+iE4T NPlw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.97.10 with SMTP id dw10mr13827969wib.38.1399564930280; Thu, 08 May 2014 09:02:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.93.68 with HTTP; Thu, 8 May 2014 09:02:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 11:02:10 -0500 Message-ID: From: Mary Barnes To: Cullen Jennings Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0443064e82746c04f8e59a79 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/2_yzwZKIo_MgUTzi7mn3nAjQwOM Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 16:02:17 -0000 --f46d0443064e82746c04f8e59a79 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Is there remote participation information available? I could not find anything in my email archives nor on the mailing list. Thanks, Mary. On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > > Below is a the current agenda for the upcoming RTCWEB Interim > (essentially, we have the morning sessions for the three days May 19, May > 20, May 21 2014). If you have not filled in your participation in the > doodle poll, please do so at: http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn. That > helps us plan space and food as well as have badges ready. > > Thanks > > Ted, Sean, Cullen > > > Interim Meeting RTCWEB May 2014 > http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn > > Day 1 > > Admin Trivia (15m) - Chairs > > RTP + Media (75m) Magnus Westerlund and Harald Alvestrand > draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-05 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-03 > > JSEP (2.5h) Eric Rescorla > draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06 > > > Day 2 > > Data Channel (4h) Randell Jesup > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-08 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-04 > > > Day 3 > > Security ( 2h ) Eric Rescorla > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09 > > ALPN ( 15m ) Martin Thomson > draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn-00 > > Consent Freshness ( 30m) Martin Thomson > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02 > > > Matters arising from webrtc meetings ( remaining time) > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --f46d0443064e82746c04f8e59a79 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Is there remote parti= cipation information available? =C2=A0I could not find anything in my email= archives nor on the mailing list.

Thanks,
Mary.


On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 10:32 AM= , Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:

Below is a the current agenda for the upcoming RTCWEB Interim (essentially,= we have the morning sessions for the three days May 19, May 20, May 21 201= 4). =C2=A0If you have not filled in your participation in the doodle poll, = please do so at: http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn. That helps us plan space and= food as well as have badges ready.

Thanks

Ted, Sean, Cullen


Interim Meeting RTCWEB May 2014
http://doo= dle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn

Day 1

Admin Trivia (15m) - Chairs

RTP + Media =C2=A0(75m) Magnus Westerlund and Harald Alvestrand
draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13
draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-05
draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-03

JSEP (2.5h) Eric Rescorla
draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06


Day 2

Data Channel (4h) Randell Jesup
draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-08
draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-04


Day 3

Security ( 2h ) Eric Rescorla
draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06
draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09

ALPN ( 15m ) Martin Thomson
draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn-00

Consent Freshness ( 30m) Martin Thomson

draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02


Matters arising from webrtc meetings ( remaining time)


_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

--f46d0443064e82746c04f8e59a79-- From nobody Thu May 8 09:41:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E6611A0085 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 09:41:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P4Rc9TbMiFEz for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 09:41:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x22b.google.com (mail-ig0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E4A61A0074 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 09:41:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-f171.google.com with SMTP id c1so8063igq.4 for ; Thu, 08 May 2014 09:41:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Up2ia2jdSGVftWTYaAVSf4JhZs3IwZD3tdBU9v78vxo=; b=IegWuKlKKb3Y9e/EbD8IpHN6eGU5cXjE97MpehDVZdc1uGhDop02ON0Glv0lKs5ojO QDlO9Fc3REUH4q0NrtuRHRoA+6np+FyD2YWgBv47md1MgxpYVsEVqbVuNxa+PkCqrVeV Itu9xXTr62vy3aOV11lfXt+iUR+0KtRjYBHNfWtVkZ2j90uz+45Yj8LSbNhub441cNdk LeBNjzMSwv66Y/UderRMpGkX7Z0sZS8YzCbvehh1p7Gbd1mBtXBCmXSg5SlJ5wi7fdZE 69vd4fytzJ8xjHz+E88flCdg6mdw5VAVk+nNE3oke0WBKH1QXVnGAIFc9vlF1Uk2vJeR p7dg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.32.70 with SMTP id g6mr10491666igi.0.1399567291451; Thu, 08 May 2014 09:41:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.200.204 with HTTP; Thu, 8 May 2014 09:41:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 09:41:31 -0700 Message-ID: From: Ted Hardie To: Mary Barnes Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b10ca553f42b804f8e62783 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/cUBZ_uwJSPmj8FKJBYwEHEb1j7Y Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 16:41:39 -0000 --047d7b10ca553f42b804f8e62783 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Mary Barnes wro= te: > Is there remote participation information available? I could not find > anything in my email archives nor on the mailing list. > > Thanks, > Mary. > > =E2=80=8BHi Mary, Thanks for raising the question; the answer may depend slightly on how many people are attending remotely. Anyone who is currently planning to attend remotely, can you let the chairs know? thanks, Ted > > On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > >> >> Below is a the current agenda for the upcoming RTCWEB Interim >> (essentially, we have the morning sessions for the three days May 19, Ma= y >> 20, May 21 2014). If you have not filled in your participation in the >> doodle poll, please do so at: http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn. That >> helps us plan space and food as well as have badges ready. >> >> Thanks >> >> Ted, Sean, Cullen >> >> >> Interim Meeting RTCWEB May 2014 >> http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn >> >> Day 1 >> >> Admin Trivia (15m) - Chairs >> >> RTP + Media (75m) Magnus Westerlund and Harald Alvestrand >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-05 >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-03 >> >> JSEP (2.5h) Eric Rescorla >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06 >> >> >> Day 2 >> >> Data Channel (4h) Randell Jesup >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-08 >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-04 >> >> >> Day 3 >> >> Security ( 2h ) Eric Rescorla >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06 >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09 >> >> ALPN ( 15m ) Martin Thomson >> draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn-00 >> >> Consent Freshness ( 30m) Martin Thomson >> >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02 >> >> >> Matters arising from webrtc meetings ( remaining time) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > --047d7b10ca553f42b804f8e62783 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 9:02 AM,= Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com> wrote:
Is there remote p= articipation information available? =C2=A0I could not find anything in my e= mail archives nor on the mailing list.

Thanks,
Mary.

=E2=80=8BHi Mary,

= Thanks for raising the question; the answer may depend slightly on how many= people are attending remotely.=C2=A0

Anyone who is currently planning to attend remotely, can you let the chairs= know?

thanks,

Ted


=C2=A0

On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluff= y@iii.ca> wrote:

Below is a the current agenda for the upcoming RTCWEB Interim (essentially,= we have the morning sessions for the three days May 19, May 20, May 21 201= 4). =C2=A0If you have not filled in your participation in the doodle poll, = please do so at: http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn. That helps us plan space and= food as well as have badges ready.

Thanks

Ted, Sean, Cullen


Interim Meeting RTCWEB May 2014
http://doo= dle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn

Day 1

Admin Trivia (15m) - Chairs

RTP + Media =C2=A0(75m) Magnus Westerlund and Harald Alvestrand
draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13
draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-05
draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-03

JSEP (2.5h) Eric Rescorla
draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06


Day 2

Data Channel (4h) Randell Jesup
draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-08
draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-04


Day 3

Security ( 2h ) Eric Rescorla
draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06
draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09

ALPN ( 15m ) Martin Thomson
draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn-00

Consent Freshness ( 30m) Martin Thomson

draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02


Matters arising from webrtc meetings ( remaining time)


_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


--047d7b10ca553f42b804f8e62783-- From nobody Thu May 8 09:43:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4681C1A0095 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 09:43:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6aFIC7Sk88QY for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 09:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22c.google.com (mail-wi0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CE941A00A2 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 09:43:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f172.google.com with SMTP id hi2so1759wib.17 for ; Thu, 08 May 2014 09:43:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Jc2kQ85SAjWrgubY4xBmYI/4n0mMxUNqMRR2aTZuXKo=; b=s8kiivXMSYQWFTaNXym+cmA489qcBPXjGU9RfLw060DnJt7FsXz12opGWxpc2vuT/P yg80fqV2kCKiweZ8IfFVknlWJMUBj6MdvJKxBqc7lW+p3knKQDngL48FKzY0zhmVds1H wZWG3jio/hZtOAI1O6s2vovztVT71mhTAFgIxbEa+zxGV4uiG2Zl7pcDfeh+II+AD3ev vukYblN9fs59hBl+TeXek6uklu8XVPSLsKxXaCuWSWjITYUATqOqz8RMuqAgHxmPlQQ1 WFAC/CIp0eq0H9BG64OprRPCsFytLfkwIk9kr/ujzMY8KJ/Tf0fUm/1LsX0bJPPwkKxn fvZA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.109.68 with SMTP id hq4mr4184916wjb.21.1399567390081; Thu, 08 May 2014 09:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.93.68 with HTTP; Thu, 8 May 2014 09:43:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 11:43:10 -0500 Message-ID: From: Mary Barnes To: Ted Hardie Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8ff1cdb420261a04f8e62d13 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/_ZZLD0eSFtSGtil_v9KqZBBdkyI Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 16:43:17 -0000 --e89a8ff1cdb420261a04f8e62d13 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I will obviously be attending remotely. But, your question leads me to another question as to whether the meeting is being recorded for people that aren't able to be on the call for 3 days solid? Thanks, Mary. On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Ted Hardie wrote: > On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Mary Barnes w= rote: > >> Is there remote participation information available? I could not find >> anything in my email archives nor on the mailing list. >> >> Thanks, >> Mary. >> >> =E2=80=8BHi Mary, > > Thanks for raising the question; the answer may depend slightly on how > many people are attending remotely. > > Anyone who is currently planning to attend remotely, can you let the > chairs know? > > thanks, > > Ted > > > > >> >> On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote: >> >>> >>> Below is a the current agenda for the upcoming RTCWEB Interim >>> (essentially, we have the morning sessions for the three days May 19, M= ay >>> 20, May 21 2014). If you have not filled in your participation in the >>> doodle poll, please do so at: http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn. That >>> helps us plan space and food as well as have badges ready. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Ted, Sean, Cullen >>> >>> >>> Interim Meeting RTCWEB May 2014 >>> http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn >>> >>> Day 1 >>> >>> Admin Trivia (15m) - Chairs >>> >>> RTP + Media (75m) Magnus Westerlund and Harald Alvestrand >>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 >>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-05 >>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-03 >>> >>> JSEP (2.5h) Eric Rescorla >>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06 >>> >>> >>> Day 2 >>> >>> Data Channel (4h) Randell Jesup >>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-08 >>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-04 >>> >>> >>> Day 3 >>> >>> Security ( 2h ) Eric Rescorla >>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06 >>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09 >>> >>> ALPN ( 15m ) Martin Thomson >>> draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn-00 >>> >>> Consent Freshness ( 30m) Martin Thomson >>> >>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02 >>> >>> >>> Matters arising from webrtc meetings ( remaining time) >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> rtcweb mailing list >>> rtcweb@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> >> > --e89a8ff1cdb420261a04f8e62d13 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I will obviously be attending remotely. =C2=A0But, your qu= estion leads me to another question as to whether the meeting is being reco= rded for people that aren't able to be on the call for 3 days solid?
Thanks,
Mary.


On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>= wrote:
=
On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barne= s@gmail.com> wrote:
Is there remote p= articipation information available? =C2=A0I could not find anything in my e= mail archives nor on the mailing list.

Thanks,
Mary.

=E2=80=8BHi Mary,

Thanks for raising the q= uestion; the answer may depend slightly on how many people are attending re= motely.=C2=A0

Anyone who is currently planning to attend remotely, can you let the chairs= know?

thanks,

Ted


=C2=A0

On Thu,= May 8, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:=

Below is a the current agenda for the upcoming RTCWEB Interim (essentially,= we have the morning sessions for the three days May 19, May 20, May 21 201= 4). =C2=A0If you have not filled in your participation in the doodle poll, = please do so at: http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn. That helps us plan space and= food as well as have badges ready.

Thanks

Ted, Sean, Cullen


Interim Meeting RTCWEB May 2014
http://doo= dle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn

Day 1

Admin Trivia (15m) - Chairs

RTP + Media =C2=A0(75m) Magnus Westerlund and Harald Alvestrand
draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13
draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-05
draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-03

JSEP (2.5h) Eric Rescorla
draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06


Day 2

Data Channel (4h) Randell Jesup
draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-08
draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-04


Day 3

Security ( 2h ) Eric Rescorla
draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06
draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09

ALPN ( 15m ) Martin Thomson
draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn-00

Consent Freshness ( 30m) Martin Thomson

draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02


Matters arising from webrtc meetings ( remaining time)


_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb



--e89a8ff1cdb420261a04f8e62d13-- From nobody Thu May 8 09:45:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 486B21A00A7 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 09:45:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e1DxMiENtalS for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 09:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x22d.google.com (mail-we0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::22d]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 399A81A009C for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 09:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f173.google.com with SMTP id u57so2820506wes.32 for ; Thu, 08 May 2014 09:44:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=tqi94xdhZYRjFeUq6orGYbOZaobqAckUfGMvMa/Otw8=; b=tqcrkM5EQkpidRTGKLTUbjWCEoDvJheE36HIptBhHRGvwzbdmmCDUwwMA+l13tt7zp UAAzjRVEeGq/xqfbnX1uLijtPYDYAHw6xt05d6Rl2TLzxZVWGI1GHdXP7a+sPHRot4f8 zUwKJxsaxib3eIlI+ZuHi3CcK+xJVN2qX83oBH+dLlCyRKFdNkr8dGD+c0S1VJy0uqEY NdU0vXakE/rxKVzrL7M/v8JufPB4ObE9bkZF8BG+CL58PrcEO5capTqL28iodXoAOJ8d vKWMOzLe/WcCh/EiO/ql9mi/PodqxJhUyLXsLK63tPjDdJYmON5Xcr3xIYWfKDeK6F7A vsTQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.228.42 with SMTP id sf10mr4472261wic.48.1399567493101; Thu, 08 May 2014 09:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Sender: elagerway@gmail.com Received: by 10.217.54.1 with HTTP; Thu, 8 May 2014 09:44:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 09:44:53 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: zwoK1GWX4ZuociB2cODqWl9LPWc Message-ID: From: Erik Lagerway To: Mary Barnes Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1135e8f243ffe204f8e63368 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/U8pfMAfoO4hGuqTxYujNq3M0O5o Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 16:45:00 -0000 --001a1135e8f243ffe204f8e63368 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 to remote participation. *Erik Lagerway | *Hookflash* | 1 (855) Hookflash ext. 2 | Twitter | WebRTC.is Blog * On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 9:43 AM, Mary Barnes wro= te: > I will obviously be attending remotely. But, your question leads me to > another question as to whether the meeting is being recorded for people > that aren't able to be on the call for 3 days solid? > > Thanks, > Mary. > > > > On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Ted Hardie wrote: > >> On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Mary Barnes = wrote: >> >>> Is there remote participation information available? I could not find >>> anything in my email archives nor on the mailing list. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Mary. >>> >>> =E2=80=8BHi Mary, >> >> Thanks for raising the question; the answer may depend slightly on how >> many people are attending remotely. >> >> Anyone who is currently planning to attend remotely, can you let the >> chairs know? >> >> thanks, >> >> Ted >> >> >> >> >>> >>> On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Below is a the current agenda for the upcoming RTCWEB Interim >>>> (essentially, we have the morning sessions for the three days May 19, = May >>>> 20, May 21 2014). If you have not filled in your participation in the >>>> doodle poll, please do so at: http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn. That >>>> helps us plan space and food as well as have badges ready. >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> Ted, Sean, Cullen >>>> >>>> >>>> Interim Meeting RTCWEB May 2014 >>>> http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn >>>> >>>> Day 1 >>>> >>>> Admin Trivia (15m) - Chairs >>>> >>>> RTP + Media (75m) Magnus Westerlund and Harald Alvestrand >>>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 >>>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-05 >>>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-03 >>>> >>>> JSEP (2.5h) Eric Rescorla >>>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06 >>>> >>>> >>>> Day 2 >>>> >>>> Data Channel (4h) Randell Jesup >>>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-08 >>>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-04 >>>> >>>> >>>> Day 3 >>>> >>>> Security ( 2h ) Eric Rescorla >>>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06 >>>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09 >>>> >>>> ALPN ( 15m ) Martin Thomson >>>> draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn-00 >>>> >>>> Consent Freshness ( 30m) Martin Thomson >>>> >>>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02 >>>> >>>> >>>> Matters arising from webrtc meetings ( remaining time) >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> rtcweb mailing list >>>> rtcweb@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> rtcweb mailing list >>> rtcweb@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>> >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > --001a1135e8f243ffe204f8e63368 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+1 to remote participation.

Erik Lagerway=C2=A0|=C2= =A0Hookflash= =C2=A0| 1 (855)=C2=A0Hookflash ext. 2= |=C2=A0Twitter=C2=A0|=C2=A0WebRTC.is Blog=C2=A0=
<= /span>


On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 9:43 AM, Mary Bar= nes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com> wrote:
I will obviously be attending remotely. =C2=A0But, your qu= estion leads me to another question as to whether the meeting is being reco= rded for people that aren't able to be on the call for 3 days solid?
Thanks,
Mary.



On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Ted Hardie <ted.= ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
=
On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barne= s@gmail.com> wrote:
Is there remote p= articipation information available? =C2=A0I could not find anything in my e= mail archives nor on the mailing list.

Thanks,
Mary.

=E2=80=8BHi Mary,

Thanks for raising the q= uestion; the answer may depend slightly on how many people are attending re= motely.=C2=A0

Anyone who is currently planning to attend remotely, can you let the chairs= know?

thanks,

Ted


=C2=A0

On Thu,= May 8, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:=

Below is a the current agenda for the upcoming RTCWEB Interim (essentially,= we have the morning sessions for the three days May 19, May 20, May 21 201= 4). =C2=A0If you have not filled in your participation in the doodle poll, = please do so at: http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn. That helps us plan space and= food as well as have badges ready.

Thanks

Ted, Sean, Cullen


Interim Meeting RTCWEB May 2014
http://doo= dle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn

Day 1

Admin Trivia (15m) - Chairs

RTP + Media =C2=A0(75m) Magnus Westerlund and Harald Alvestrand
draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13
draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-05
draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-03

JSEP (2.5h) Eric Rescorla
draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06


Day 2

Data Channel (4h) Randell Jesup
draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-08
draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-04


Day 3

Security ( 2h ) Eric Rescorla
draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06
draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09

ALPN ( 15m ) Martin Thomson
draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn-00

Consent Freshness ( 30m) Martin Thomson

draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02


Matters arising from webrtc meetings ( remaining time)


_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb




_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


--001a1135e8f243ffe204f8e63368-- From nobody Thu May 8 09:46:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6FC11A0076 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 09:46:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.671 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.671 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tzRueb9CvvKT for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 09:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.unina.it (smtp1.unina.it [192.132.34.61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 423361A005E for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 09:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [2.197.37.70] ([2.197.37.70]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp1.unina.it (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s48Gk4AW017258 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 8 May 2014 18:46:05 +0200 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3CC76D93-CCEF-4A39-9577-EDF1FA60B207" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Simon Pietro Romano In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 18:46:03 +0200 Message-Id: References: To: Erik Lagerway X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/f1Gu6s0xOE80byZjT8UWLsh8vw0 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 16:46:17 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3CC76D93-CCEF-4A39-9577-EDF1FA60B207 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 +1 Simon On 08/mag/2014, at 18:44, Erik Lagerway wrote: > +1 to remote participation. >=20 > Erik Lagerway | Hookflash | 1 (855) Hookflash ext. 2 | Twitter | = WebRTC.is Blog=20 >=20 >=20 > On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 9:43 AM, Mary Barnes = wrote: > I will obviously be attending remotely. But, your question leads me = to another question as to whether the meeting is being recorded for = people that aren't able to be on the call for 3 days solid? >=20 > Thanks, > Mary. >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Ted Hardie = wrote: > On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Mary Barnes = wrote: > Is there remote participation information available? I could not find = anything in my email archives nor on the mailing list. >=20 > Thanks, > Mary. >=20 > =E2=80=8BHi Mary, >=20 > Thanks for raising the question; the answer may depend slightly on how = many people are attending remotely. =20 >=20 > Anyone who is currently planning to attend remotely, can you let the = chairs know? >=20 > thanks, >=20 > Ted >=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Cullen Jennings = wrote: >=20 > Below is a the current agenda for the upcoming RTCWEB Interim = (essentially, we have the morning sessions for the three days May 19, = May 20, May 21 2014). If you have not filled in your participation in = the doodle poll, please do so at: http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn. = That helps us plan space and food as well as have badges ready. >=20 > Thanks >=20 > Ted, Sean, Cullen >=20 >=20 > Interim Meeting RTCWEB May 2014 > http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn >=20 > Day 1 >=20 > Admin Trivia (15m) - Chairs >=20 > RTP + Media (75m) Magnus Westerlund and Harald Alvestrand > draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-05 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-03 >=20 > JSEP (2.5h) Eric Rescorla > draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06 >=20 >=20 > Day 2 >=20 > Data Channel (4h) Randell Jesup > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-08 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-04 >=20 >=20 > Day 3 >=20 > Security ( 2h ) Eric Rescorla > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09 >=20 > ALPN ( 15m ) Martin Thomson > draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn-00 >=20 > Consent Freshness ( 30m) Martin Thomson >=20 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02 >=20 >=20 > Matters arising from webrtc meetings ( remaining time) >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb _\\|//_ ( O-O ) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Simon Pietro Romano Universita' di Napoli Federico = II Computer Engineering Department=20 Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7683816 e-mail: spromano@unina.it <>. = Magritte. oooO ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~( )~~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ \ ( = ( ) \_) ) = / = (_/ --Apple-Mail=_3CC76D93-CCEF-4A39-9577-EDF1FA60B207 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 +1

Simon

On 08/mag/2014, at 18:44, Erik Lagerway <erik@hookflash.com> = wrote:

+1 to remote participation.

Erik = Lagerway | <= /font>Hookflash= <= /font> | 1 (855) Hookflash ext. 2 | Twitter | WebRTC.is = Blog 
<= /span><= /span>


On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 9:43 AM, Mary = Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com> = wrote:
I will obviously be attending remotely.  But, your = question leads me to another question as to whether the meeting is being = recorded for people that aren't able to be on the call for 3 days = solid?

Thanks,
Mary.



On Thu, May 8, = 2014 at 11:41 AM, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Mary Barnes = <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com> wrote:
Is there remote participation information available?  I could = not find anything in my email archives nor on the mailing list.

Thanks,
Mary.

=E2=80=8BHi Mary,

Thanks for raising = the question; the answer may depend slightly on how many people are = attending remotely. 

Anyone who is currently planning to attend remotely, can you let the = chairs = know?

thanks,

Ted


 

On Thu, = May 8, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:

Below is a the current agenda for the upcoming RTCWEB Interim = (essentially, we have the morning sessions for the three days May 19, = May 20, May 21 2014).  If you have not filled in your participation = in the doodle poll, please do so at: http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn. That helps us = plan space and food as well as have badges ready.

Thanks

Ted, Sean, Cullen


Interim Meeting RTCWEB May 2014
http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn

Day 1

Admin Trivia (15m) - Chairs

RTP + Media  (75m) Magnus Westerlund and Harald Alvestrand
draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13
draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-05
draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-03

JSEP (2.5h) Eric Rescorla
draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06


Day 2

Data Channel (4h) Randell Jesup
draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-08
draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-04


Day 3

Security ( 2h ) Eric Rescorla
draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06
draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09

ALPN ( 15m ) Martin Thomson
draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn-00

Consent Freshness ( 30m) Martin Thomson

draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02


Matters arising from webrtc meetings ( remaining time)


_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb




_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing = list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

            =           =      =   _\\|//_
            =                 =       ( O-O )
  =  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  =    = Simon Pietro Romano
          =     Universita' di Napoli = Federico II
              =    =      Computer Engineering = Department 
         =     Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 = 7683816
              =                     =          e-mail: spromano@unina.it

=     <<Molti mi dicono che lo scoraggiamento =C3=A8 = l'alibi degli 
   =  idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e mi scoraggio>>. = Magritte.
             =    =                   =    oooO
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(   = )~~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
=                 =  \ (            (   = )
=               =                     = \_)          ) /
      =                     =                     =                     =      (_/






= --Apple-Mail=_3CC76D93-CCEF-4A39-9577-EDF1FA60B207-- From nobody Thu May 8 09:47:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05EF91A006B for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 09:47:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WGuPdWL6AAIv for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 09:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p-us1-iereast-outbound.us1.avaya.com (p-us1-iereast-outbound.us1.avaya.com [135.11.29.13]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B0AC1A005E for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 09:47:45 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true 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Thread-Index: AQHPatbmjxRHICPjGU2xiPwEYZ/+FJs2wYaAgAAAdgCAAGUQgP//m76AgAAh5mA= Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 16:47:37 +0000 Message-ID: <9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA5C7DFFBC@AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.64.58.46] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA5C7DFFBCAZFFEXMB04globa_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/H-y2-V4iHCL1NkuQ3xI2JkcsRFk Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 16:47:48 -0000 --_000_9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA5C7DFFBCAZFFEXMB04globa_ Content-Type: text/plain; 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charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/mgonZgC4ULtUHaaRc36gZQZrvzY Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Review of draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 16:47:49 -0000 On 08.05.14, 14:54, Colin Perkins wrote: > On 8 May 2014, at 13:43, Bernard Aboba > wrote: >>> On May 8, 2014, at 3:45, Colin Perkins >>> wrote: The fix here is to delete “In the absence of a concrete >>> congestion control algorithm, allâ€, leaving the text as “WebRTC >>> implementations MUST implement the RTP circuit breaker…†since as >>> you note, we want the circuit breaker even if there is congestion >>> control. >> >> [BA] The question I have is whether this would be widely >> implemented. The Circuit Breaker algorithm pauses sessions, but has >> no mechanism to resume them, so it increases brittleness. > > The circuit breaker is a mechanism of last resort. If we've designed > it correctly, it will only stop sessions that are otherwise unusable. Shouldn't we have the "if" cleared before making this a MUST? It is not clear to me that we've managed to avoid excessive false positives for example. > The resume mechanism is the redial button on the user interface. With > a reasonable congestion control algorithm, the circuit breaker should > never be triggered. This is another part that bothers me with circuit breakers. If there's a reasonable chance that a "redial" would succeed then why did we break the session? If not then why are we encouraging it? I am not saying that this can never make sense but it feels like there's too much application logic in there for this to be a MUST for WebRTC stacks. Emil -- https://jitsi.org From nobody Thu May 8 09:54:45 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 383921A006E for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 09:54:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.979 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.979 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dcei4AvYfzlZ for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 09:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-f182.google.com (mail-ve0-f182.google.com [209.85.128.182]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13C861A0007 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 09:54:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ve0-f182.google.com with SMTP id sa20so3658360veb.13 for ; Thu, 08 May 2014 09:54:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=t9GRy1qFHfSVFv4HWniTOQhzroSrrgI724/ILWcZjDA=; b=BisaQfjYqYXlYspVk2T2VTGV4PNEXAYZaAhOPnrIceVi+7wGe/CZBwOg3yQGU/Gdf/ sqxZ5XIYK/kJCLxq/PH28Z2Af7kV3U9Gx5O8pT8OAO+VffYSHU3CrN7rXyUNc8q1/ykM qWS0Ft5Qrv70jkmgDJ3+D8ROxuKUURCSrhZ5BVrv9jwcbHAYoc6m/S5RHFcAluAhuJzJ 5LMuuyfyBfBn/98DA4NGQ7NDyce+RAKwiaipVa+Owm2Ah4k/smt0So0apP7EAiwikWK9 7ENTMOjXw6Rz1uo+q6yvhXmmNXao0xISoDeEnpUgV9jiQ/75mxPyfDK0hQJJX5J/y31z wjrA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlbEfkSpB7E/PtHNl5Tlw3PxWYXb7Qk9SeuoZvn1vDS7xYNJQzo06oBp8sbk/hysryhXjZk X-Received: by 10.58.25.3 with SMTP id y3mr1740358vef.48.1399568076327; Thu, 08 May 2014 09:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f181.google.com (mail-vc0-f181.google.com [209.85.220.181]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id fz8sm1481385vec.14.2014.05.08.09.54.35 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 08 May 2014 09:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f181.google.com with SMTP id ld13so3104165vcb.12 for ; Thu, 08 May 2014 09:54:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.52.37.48 with SMTP id v16mr3332646vdj.4.1399568075843; Thu, 08 May 2014 09:54:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.191.130 with HTTP; Thu, 8 May 2014 09:54:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Emil Ivov Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 18:54:15 +0200 Message-ID: To: Simon Pietro Romano Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/G5DBc9erKy8pxvCJ5l8a8h2H5PQ Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 16:54:43 -0000 +1. I don't know if I'd be able to actually do that so +1 one to Mary's questions about recording as well. Emil On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 6:46 PM, Simon Pietro Romano wro= te: > +1 > > Simon > > On 08/mag/2014, at 18:44, Erik Lagerway wrote: > > +1 to remote participation. > > Erik Lagerway | Hookflash | 1 (855) Hookflash ext. 2 | Twitter | WebRTC.i= s > Blog > > > On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 9:43 AM, Mary Barnes > wrote: >> >> I will obviously be attending remotely. But, your question leads me to >> another question as to whether the meeting is being recorded for people = that >> aren't able to be on the call for 3 days solid? >> >> Thanks, >> Mary. >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Ted Hardie wrote: >>> >>> On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Mary Barnes >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Is there remote participation information available? I could not find >>>> anything in my email archives nor on the mailing list. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Mary. >>>> >>> Hi Mary, >>> >>> Thanks for raising the question; the answer may depend slightly on how >>> many people are attending remotely. >>> >>> Anyone who is currently planning to attend remotely, can you let the >>> chairs know? >>> >>> thanks, >>> >>> Ted >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote= : >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Below is a the current agenda for the upcoming RTCWEB Interim >>>>> (essentially, we have the morning sessions for the three days May 19,= May >>>>> 20, May 21 2014). If you have not filled in your participation in th= e >>>>> doodle poll, please do so at: http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn. Tha= t helps >>>>> us plan space and food as well as have badges ready. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> >>>>> Ted, Sean, Cullen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Interim Meeting RTCWEB May 2014 >>>>> http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn >>>>> >>>>> Day 1 >>>>> >>>>> Admin Trivia (15m) - Chairs >>>>> >>>>> RTP + Media (75m) Magnus Westerlund and Harald Alvestrand >>>>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 >>>>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-05 >>>>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-03 >>>>> >>>>> JSEP (2.5h) Eric Rescorla >>>>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Day 2 >>>>> >>>>> Data Channel (4h) Randell Jesup >>>>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-08 >>>>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-04 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Day 3 >>>>> >>>>> Security ( 2h ) Eric Rescorla >>>>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06 >>>>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09 >>>>> >>>>> ALPN ( 15m ) Martin Thomson >>>>> draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn-00 >>>>> >>>>> Consent Freshness ( 30m) Martin Thomson >>>>> >>>>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Matters arising from webrtc meetings ( remaining time) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> rtcweb mailing list >>>>> rtcweb@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> rtcweb mailing list >>>> rtcweb@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > _\\|//_ > ( O-O ) > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Simon Pietro Romano > Universita' di Napoli Federico II > Computer Engineering Department > Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7683816 > e-mail: spromano@unina.it > > < idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e mi scoraggio>>. Magritte. > oooO > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~( )~~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > \ ( ( ) > \_) ) / > (_= / > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --=20 https://jitsi.org From nobody Thu May 8 10:00:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D965D1A005E for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 10:00:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yV63cVUZ63tr for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 10:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB4C11A00BF for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 10:00:44 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-f798c6d000001521-4a-536bb8376561 Received: from ESESSHC007.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id C7.6A.05409.738BB635; Thu, 8 May 2014 19:00:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB109.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.25]) by ESESSHC007.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Thu, 8 May 2014 19:00:39 +0200 From: Salvatore Loreto To: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 Thread-Index: AQHPatK8pJve5FBPdEi58UFnAvq4UZs2to8AgAAK/4CAAAB2AIAAAHuAgAAAU4CAAABwgIAAA6SA Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 17:00:38 +0000 Message-ID: <488010A0-0371-4D67-9D33-02B48B5E0DBD@ericsson.com> References: <9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA5C7DFFBC@AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com> In-Reply-To: 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autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pllYnGW7gvCH for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 10:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0A361A005E for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 10:00:52 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-f798c6d000001521-5f-536bb83f1318 Received: from ESESSHC015.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id AC.6A.05409.F38BB635; Thu, 8 May 2014 19:00:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB109.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.25]) by ESESSHC015.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.63]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Thu, 8 May 2014 19:00:47 +0200 From: Salvatore Loreto To: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 Thread-Index: AQHPatK8pJve5FBPdEi58UFnAvq4UZs2to8AgAAK/4CAAAB2AIAAAHuAgAAAU4CAAABwgIAAA66A Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 17:00:46 +0000 Message-ID: <70276911-3372-44EF-A989-272AED6E982F@ericsson.com> References: <9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA5C7DFFBC@AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com> In-Reply-To: <9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA5C7DFFBC@AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.149] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_70276911337244EFA989272AED6E982Fericssoncom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrOIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvja79juxggwnHdS2+/vzBanH+5m9m i7X/2tkttrXdYHZg8Ti4cg67x/mtS5g8liz5yeTxY8tTpgCWKC6blNSczLLUIn27BK6Mnyf2 sxdMPMxU8WOZSgPjtV1MXYycHBICJhJzzr5lhLDFJC7cW8/WxcjFISRwlFHizo33rBDOIkaJ R4feM4NUsQmYSTx/uAXMFhHQl/g4Yw2YzSxQJtF3+g6YLSxgLzHtzl5WiBoHieNbbjJB2FES 809cBLNZBFQk7vX9ZQGxeYHq/+27C7X5IrPE0ZuXwAZxCoRIvNl1A6yIEei876fWMEEsE5e4 9WQ+1AsCEkv2nGeGsEUlXj7+xwphK0msPbydBaI+WeL9jn3sEMsEJU7OfMIygVF0FpJRs5CU 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X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ip96-g8irIYp for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 10:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout-07.mxes.net (mxout-07.mxes.net [216.86.168.182]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2B5D1A0087 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 10:50:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.4.100] (unknown [128.107.239.236]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CB9A622E259; Thu, 8 May 2014 13:50:03 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Cullen Jennings In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 11:50:00 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <00B57139-F6A6-48B4-969D-A90EAF638062@iii.ca> References: To: Mary Barnes X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/MgedXr0tn6Jx-yS4hHaGvBmpG0o Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 17:50:18 -0000 As long as the room supports it, I imagine we will have a live stream = from either WebEX or Hangouts - not sure which yet. For remote feedback = back to the room there will be the usual xmpp for RTCWeb and IRC for = WebRTC. I don=92t know what the situation is in the room for mic=92s etc = but we will have remote access as best we can.=20 On May 8, 2014, at 10:02 AM, Mary Barnes = wrote: > Is there remote participation information available? I could not find = anything in my email archives nor on the mailing list. >=20 > Thanks, > Mary. >=20 >=20 > On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Cullen Jennings = wrote: >=20 > Below is a the current agenda for the upcoming RTCWEB Interim = (essentially, we have the morning sessions for the three days May 19, = May 20, May 21 2014). If you have not filled in your participation in = the doodle poll, please do so at: http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn. = That helps us plan space and food as well as have badges ready. >=20 > Thanks >=20 > Ted, Sean, Cullen >=20 >=20 > Interim Meeting RTCWEB May 2014 > http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn >=20 > Day 1 >=20 > Admin Trivia (15m) - Chairs >=20 > RTP + Media (75m) Magnus Westerlund and Harald Alvestrand > draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-05 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-03 >=20 > JSEP (2.5h) Eric Rescorla > draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06 >=20 >=20 > Day 2 >=20 > Data Channel (4h) Randell Jesup > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-08 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-04 >=20 >=20 > Day 3 >=20 > Security ( 2h ) Eric Rescorla > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09 >=20 > ALPN ( 15m ) Martin Thomson > draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn-00 >=20 > Consent Freshness ( 30m) Martin Thomson >=20 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02 >=20 >=20 > Matters arising from webrtc meetings ( remaining time) >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >=20 From nobody Thu May 8 11:17:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DFB21A00B4 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 11:17:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6zgsf4zQGlVY for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 11:17:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pd0-x22b.google.com (mail-pd0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEB931A00C2 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 11:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pd0-f171.google.com with SMTP id r10so2600912pdi.16 for ; Thu, 08 May 2014 11:17:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:cc:from:subject:date:to; bh=dkfOjqOVy2PUPwGqsPk82JLKY+ru+rey+aO3Kh219J8=; b=lEsxw0J3kl62dXcZOTf1iOcy5Pcu+1vKrBrJvw76H05czh51C5R+AoQK6JoeGO4r6g baLn/e0dLG3vECwMA4im6aX6/XJRv9Pw73zl86GYDkwphxsTqb7LRLDO51iqTui5b7Zz akxFs5x7bYQwxKnJQCOAAnWZc4HfLW/uN12DoBm/n30Snq4/bfIL3yM32UtcF8XzJE+O oNbS6sIM/RDzt30ncQ+9X+BKBnFV63W5zW7e39CbefJ0Efixj2VPNU0K3gsDCi30dDu+ 6I9c78XtolIcgu31NgleXihErae52YODq+ZgQsQKtoT3V9E7b+OSgF0yiNeRI9fneIZY YUmQ== X-Received: by 10.66.122.1 with SMTP id lo1mr10619085pab.118.1399573056107; Thu, 08 May 2014 11:17:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.81.8.153] ([166.170.42.60]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id gz11sm3259287pbd.1.2014.05.08.11.17.33 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 08 May 2014 11:17:34 -0700 (PDT) References: <2CE99351-87F9-4815-913A-092C1B703D8A@csperkins.org> <536BB52B.50102@jitsi.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: <536BB52B.50102@jitsi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (11D201) From: Bernard Aboba Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 11:17:30 -0700 To: Emil Ivov Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/eDmvo7xRGhzOKFR8jH8jxZXk1h4 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Colin Perkins Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Review of draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 18:17:45 -0000 > On May 8, 2014, at 9:47 AM, Emil Ivov wrote: >>=20 >> The circuit breaker is a mechanism of last resort. If we've designed >> it correctly, it will only stop sessions that are otherwise unusable. [BA] Unusable at a given moment could change to usable later, either as a re= sult of congestion control support and/or changing conditions. So it is one t= hing to stop sending for some period and indicate to the user that difficult= ies are being experienced then try again after backing down the send Bw, and= another to stop and require a redial.=20 >=20 > This is another part that bothers me with circuit breakers. If there's a r= easonable chance that a "redial" would succeed then why did we break the ses= sion? If not then why are we encouraging it? [BA] As specified, circuit breakers is vulnerable to routing transients. Oth= er transports such as TCP are explicitly designed to survive this, but circu= it breakers will not. So we need to ask ourselves why TCP never needed (or c= onsidered) such a mechanism.=20= From nobody Thu May 8 11:53:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B78621A00DA for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 11:53:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1X7Ev0XvDjrW for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 11:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37CA01A00B3 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 11:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=53922 helo=mangole.lan) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WiTRh-00063F-Sf; Thu, 08 May 2014 19:53:30 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 19:53:28 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8A7B3DF4-FD94-4825-8899-F097B05C8195@csperkins.org> References: <2CE99351-87F9-4815-913A-092C1B703D8A@csperkins.org> <536BB52B.50102@jitsi.org> To: Bernard Aboba X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: -28 X-Mythic-Debug: Threshold = On = Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/EtgCpNinp2-OPYy1nKmA169t34k Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Review of draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 18:53:40 -0000 On 8 May 2014, at 19:17, Bernard Aboba wrote: >> On May 8, 2014, at 9:47 AM, Emil Ivov wrote: >>>=20 >>> The circuit breaker is a mechanism of last resort. If we=92ve = designed it correctly, it will only stop sessions that are otherwise = unusable. >=20 > [BA] Unusable at a given moment could change to usable later, either = as a result of congestion control support and/or changing conditions. So = it is one thing to stop sending for some period and indicate to the user = that difficulties are being experienced then try again after backing = down the send Bw, and another to stop and require a redial.=20 The circuit breaker draft explicitly allows for this back-off and resume = behaviour. =46rom section 4.3 of = draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers-05: Systems that usually send at a high data rate, but that can reduce their data rate significantly (i.e., by at least a factor of ten), MAY first reduce their sending rate to this lower value to see if this resolves the congestion, but MUST then cease transmission if the problem does not resolve itself within a further two RTCP reporting intervals (see Section 4.5). An example of this might be a video conferencing system that backs off to sending audio only, before completely dropping the call. If such a reduction in sending rate resolves the congestion problem, the sender MAY gradually increase the rate at which it sends data after a reasonable amount of time has passed, provided it takes care not to cause the problem to recur ("reasonable" is intentionally not defined here). If there is a congestion control algorithm implemented in addition, then = this ought to back off long before the circuit breaker would trigger = anyway, so the problem won=92t occur. >> This is another part that bothers me with circuit breakers. If = there's a reasonable chance that a "redial" would succeed then why did = we break the session? If not then why are we encouraging it? >=20 > [BA] As specified, circuit breakers is vulnerable to routing = transients. Other transports such as TCP are explicitly designed to = survive this, but circuit breakers will not. So we need to ask = ourselves why TCP never needed (or considered) such a mechanism. I suggest that the user will almost certainly have hang-up the call in = frustration as a result of the drop-out before the circuit breaker = fires. If people think the timeouts in the circuit breaker draft are too = short, or the packet loss thresholds too tight, then please comment on = the circuit breaker draft (in AVTCORE) and we=92ll work to improve it. = So far, we haven=92t had any real push-back against the approach taken = in that draft.=20 I do think a circuit breaker is REQUIRED for WebRTC, however, especially = as RMCAT is not making rapid progress with congestion control. Colin --=20 Colin Perkins http://csperkins.org/ From nobody Thu May 8 12:02:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 073931A00E6 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 12:02:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qqwYD9NRdVDR for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 12:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ECF71A00DE for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 12:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=54198 helo=mangole.lan) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WiTaC-00070o-Rs; Thu, 08 May 2014 20:02:17 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: <536BB52B.50102@jitsi.org> Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 20:02:15 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2CE99351-87F9-4815-913A-092C1B703D8A@csperkins.org> <536BB52B.50102@jitsi.org> To: Emil Ivov X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: -28 X-Mythic-Debug: Threshold = On = Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/OhZsoRSDKv5OqSufE54TBni7Pz0 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Review of draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 19:02:26 -0000 On 8 May 2014, at 17:47, Emil Ivov wrote: > On 08.05.14, 14:54, Colin Perkins wrote: >> On 8 May 2014, at 13:43, Bernard Aboba >> wrote: >>>> On May 8, 2014, at 3:45, Colin Perkins >>>> wrote: The fix here is to delete =93In the absence of a concrete >>>> congestion control algorithm, all=94, leaving the text as =93WebRTC >>>> implementations MUST implement the RTP circuit breaker=85=94 since = as >>>> you note, we want the circuit breaker even if there is congestion >>>> control. >>>=20 >>> [BA] The question I have is whether this would be widely >>> implemented. The Circuit Breaker algorithm pauses sessions, but has >>> no mechanism to resume them, so it increases brittleness. >>=20 >> The circuit breaker is a mechanism of last resort. If we've designed >> it correctly, it will only stop sessions that are otherwise unusable. >=20 > Shouldn't we have the "if" cleared before making this a MUST? It is = not clear to me that we=92ve managed to avoid excessive false positives = for example. The experiments that I, Varun, and Zahed have done look to show the = circuit breaker behaving as desired. If you know of scenarios where = there are false positives, I=92d like to see your data so we can improve = the circuit breaker. >> The resume mechanism is the redial button on the user interface. With >> a reasonable congestion control algorithm, the circuit breaker should >> never be triggered. >=20 > This is another part that bothers me with circuit breakers. If there's = a reasonable chance that a "redial" would succeed then why did we break = the session? If not then why are we encouraging it? If the circuit breaker triggers then I wouldn=92t expect a redial to = succeed immediately. Obviously, the longer you wait before redialing, = the more likely the network conditions will have changed and the call = will succeed.=20 --=20 Colin Perkins http://csperkins.org/ From nobody Thu May 8 12:14:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECF1C1A011C for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 12:13:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c2w_vHwzBVj7 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 12:13:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x235.google.com (mail-wi0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0C8B1A00FE for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 12:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f181.google.com with SMTP id n15so217838wiw.8 for ; Thu, 08 May 2014 12:13:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=OP9Pm0uwNumxRbejiAy8+3owdbOdKjgg1ky1xARRk2o=; b=TpWC6nKOki+jC5Rase+60lRjqXFp0LIh5O+LVhamJqmjJspSiRnrOhbsVX3k/04qIH fYQPc5+36auyv7eiCP/s/Ev7SiEYt9LzjdCI5d1Qq2pxMRoCCoYpVNCPof6Vc+mRfdm2 6xDfLPejJgVQ45ggI9M9UnxvyeFxO2O4ONgqd+J7jNcYcEbqIO1k2wrHAnahRFjF36yx xzsR0NUgNAPK/04ddwEmhCiZgV0SEQAocllxs3gQUIvHmgF1IEVW1C/E2HB0nw7pySZJ fThJz0OTQd3fRtGpswGeUGaTQFCNz0tXHIwQI5STJpTJPLdEgqMXMOYnnaLk8goP6vit ZwDg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.88.230 with SMTP id bj6mr34634wjb.85.1399576432324; Thu, 08 May 2014 12:13:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.93.68 with HTTP; Thu, 8 May 2014 12:13:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <00B57139-F6A6-48B4-969D-A90EAF638062@iii.ca> References: <00B57139-F6A6-48B4-969D-A90EAF638062@iii.ca> Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 14:13:52 -0500 Message-ID: From: Mary Barnes To: Cullen Jennings Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0102f2d215b56b04f8e84878 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/b0mv_39JC7HV-t7_CowLOuARtxY Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 19:14:00 -0000 --089e0102f2d215b56b04f8e84878 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Honestly, I find this extremely disappointing. In the end, if your audio isn't good, then the meeting is not accessible to the community (myself included) that might not happen the $s to travel for the meeting. When we had CLUE WG interim meetings, we worked very hard to ensure we had quality audio for the recording and any remote participants. My understanding is that this the usual expectation for official IETF WG meetings. Regards, Mary. On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 12:50 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > > As long as the room supports it, I imagine we will have a live stream fro= m > either WebEX or Hangouts - not sure which yet. For remote feedback back = to > the room there will be the usual xmpp for RTCWeb and IRC for WebRTC. I > don=E2=80=99t know what the situation is in the room for mic=E2=80=99s et= c but we will have > remote access as best we can. > > > On May 8, 2014, at 10:02 AM, Mary Barnes > wrote: > > > Is there remote participation information available? I could not find > anything in my email archives nor on the mailing list. > > > > Thanks, > > Mary. > > > > > > On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > > > > Below is a the current agenda for the upcoming RTCWEB Interim > (essentially, we have the morning sessions for the three days May 19, May > 20, May 21 2014). If you have not filled in your participation in the > doodle poll, please do so at: http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn. That > helps us plan space and food as well as have badges ready. > > > > Thanks > > > > Ted, Sean, Cullen > > > > > > Interim Meeting RTCWEB May 2014 > > http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn > > > > Day 1 > > > > Admin Trivia (15m) - Chairs > > > > RTP + Media (75m) Magnus Westerlund and Harald Alvestrand > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-05 > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-03 > > > > JSEP (2.5h) Eric Rescorla > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06 > > > > > > Day 2 > > > > Data Channel (4h) Randell Jesup > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-08 > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-04 > > > > > > Day 3 > > > > Security ( 2h ) Eric Rescorla > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06 > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09 > > > > ALPN ( 15m ) Martin Thomson > > draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn-00 > > > > Consent Freshness ( 30m) Martin Thomson > > > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02 > > > > > > Matters arising from webrtc meetings ( remaining time) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > rtcweb mailing list > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > --089e0102f2d215b56b04f8e84878 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Honestly, I find this extremely disappointing. In the end,= if your audio isn't good, then the meeting is not accessible to the co= mmunity (myself included) that might not happen the $s to travel for the me= eting. =C2=A0When we had CLUE WG interim meetings, we worked very hard to e= nsure we had quality audio for the recording and any remote participants. = =C2=A0My understanding is that this the usual expectation for official IETF= WG meetings.=C2=A0

Regards,
Mary.


On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 12:50 PM, Cull= en Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:

As long as the room supports it, I imagine we will have a live stream from = either WebEX or Hangouts - not sure which yet. =C2=A0For remote feedback ba= ck to the room there will be the usual xmpp for RTCWeb and IRC for WebRTC. = I don=E2=80=99t know what the situation is in the room for mic=E2=80=99s et= c but we will have remote access as best we can.


On May 8, 2014, at 10:02 AM, Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com> wrote:

> Is there remote participation information available? =C2=A0I could not= find anything in my email archives nor on the mailing list.
>
> Thanks,
> Mary.
>
>
> On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:
>
> Below is a the current agenda for the upcoming RTCWEB Interim (essenti= ally, we have the morning sessions for the three days May 19, May 20, May 2= 1 2014). =C2=A0If you have not filled in your participation in the doodle p= oll, please do so at: http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn. That helps us plan spac= e and food as well as have badges ready.
>
> Thanks
>
> Ted, Sean, Cullen
>
>
> Interim Meeting RTCWEB May 2014
> http:= //doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn
>
> Day 1
>
> Admin Trivia (15m) - Chairs
>
> RTP + Media =C2=A0(75m) Magnus Westerlund and Harald Alvestrand
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-05
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-03
>
> JSEP (2.5h) Eric Rescorla
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06
>
>
> Day 2
>
> Data Channel (4h) Randell Jesup
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-08
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-04
>
>
> Day 3
>
> Security ( 2h ) Eric Rescorla
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09
>
> ALPN ( 15m ) Martin Thomson
> draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn-00
>
> Consent Freshness ( 30m) Martin Thomson
>
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02
>
>
> Matters arising from webrtc meetings ( remaining time)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>


--089e0102f2d215b56b04f8e84878-- From nobody Thu May 8 14:49:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E75D1A011F for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 14:49:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e69m67YOg1fv for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 14:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f176.google.com (mail-wi0-f176.google.com [209.85.212.176]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 542731A0168 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 14:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f176.google.com with SMTP id n15so406726wiw.9 for ; Thu, 08 May 2014 14:48:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=pfhQEh+/q1Khz6/ZisWzp+H7bpRMnFCv5aMJ9kFPeSM=; b=c/G0XH4Y9Iw8HXSyNkE1nKQ6ezSsfGpaoq9bQwDZZapezjpM/9mBiTVUFRH4WQL0oB oc2S1lNrhkvXVFY+I7Z3RE1tLsVimTVtxLMNmOPGSTo4df5ChLGA/kFRREwZgqm7AlU4 rYCn22KOevKuLrPpoKyIQQVqN0zfLucw+HEzN57IZi6jO/24TEgoRawkSvS+2FqVtupD ULaT2sgvsjkI/cg7mWQlLZjrgRrR9JYSHrXq7TcJpiV2s6u5d7Q5Lq2ppyIL+BNiV/6s s3YQexTNzcoRzAy8HxLy7mVyPPv6MJlWidWGmBlczh8+I5Z0ju9OER6J0Fd/nUJon364 VQBA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQldDXuqQ2hTmxHItVe1kwi7DzYrh2PqrvYtOXo4R3WQzL3omKVJ4gEHDi56fPC7/RZNBwA2 X-Received: by 10.194.24.194 with SMTP id w2mr5140940wjf.25.1399585734273; Thu, 08 May 2014 14:48:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from camionet.local ([2a01:e35:8a04:14f0:f4e3:5c5b:c0c5:9c0d]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ga10sm2825046wjb.23.2014.05.08.14.48.52 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 08 May 2014 14:48:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <536BFBC2.4090107@jitsi.org> Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 23:48:50 +0200 From: Emil Ivov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Colin Perkins References: <2CE99351-87F9-4815-913A-092C1B703D8A@csperkins.org> <536BB52B.50102@jitsi.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/gdLazOiaKfIJ8-OPR1stqnBEEHs Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Review of draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 21:49:02 -0000 On 08.05.14, 21:02, Colin Perkins wrote: > On 8 May 2014, at 17:47, Emil Ivov wrote: >> On 08.05.14, 14:54, Colin Perkins wrote: >>> On 8 May 2014, at 13:43, Bernard Aboba >>> wrote: >>>>> On May 8, 2014, at 3:45, Colin Perkins >>>>> wrote: The fix here is to delete “In the absence of a >>>>> concrete congestion control algorithm, all”, leaving the text >>>>> as “WebRTC implementations MUST implement the RTP circuit >>>>> breaker…” since as you note, we want the circuit breaker even >>>>> if there is congestion control. >>>> >>>> [BA] The question I have is whether this would be widely >>>> implemented. The Circuit Breaker algorithm pauses sessions, but >>>> has no mechanism to resume them, so it increases brittleness. >>> >>> The circuit breaker is a mechanism of last resort. If we've >>> designed it correctly, it will only stop sessions that are >>> otherwise unusable. >> >> Shouldn't we have the "if" cleared before making this a MUST? It is >> not clear to me that we’ve managed to avoid excessive false >> positives for example. > > The experiments that I, Varun, and Zahed have done look to show the > circuit breaker behaving as desired. That sounds interesting and I'd actually be happy to see the data although I can easily believe that circuit breakers could come in handy in certain situations. draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers-05 contains some very useful guidelines on determining how and when an application might want to consider employing them. So I am fine with the concept ... *as long as* the choice is left to the application. I don't believe that any of the breakers however have the reliability to only trigger in cases where ceasing media transmission is the right thing to do. I don't think such a thing is possible given how use cases and requirements vary from one application to the next. > If you know of scenarios where > there are false positives, I’d like to see your data so we can > improve the circuit breaker. It's funny you should ask. I am currently having connectivity issues and my media transmissions would every now and then be interrupted for periods that go beyond two or three RR packets. I am very happy that my sessions just resume when things go back to normal. In cases like demo stands or some forms of video surveillance, lack of media for several (tens) of seconds is not really a problem, whereas a break that requires human intervention could be one. Cases where SFUs decide to selectively NOT forward some RTP but forward all RTCP would also trigger false positives, while they are not a problem for applications that are aware of their behaviour. IP layer network mobility à la NEMO, temporary uplink saturation because someone mistakenly started a torrent client (and quit a few seconds later), someone tripping over a cable and then re-plugging it, buggy NAT gateways ... all of those could potentially trigger circuit breakers and in all these cases both the application and the user may prefer that they don't. Obviously browsers are a special case but we already have consent freshness there and that likely covers most of the concerns for undesirable streaming that circuit breakers address. So again, I feel circuit breakers could be a useful informative reference but they can be harmful if REQUIRED. Emil -- https://jitsi.org From nobody Thu May 8 17:07:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC11F1A01AA for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 17:07:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GS2udbn_WchJ for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 17:07:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x22b.google.com (mail-ob0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 297B31A01A0 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 17:07:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-f171.google.com with SMTP id wn1so3972314obc.30 for ; Thu, 08 May 2014 17:07:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:cc:from:subject:date:to; bh=tZZP57zYDqQowUVfhK04zaSpJoc+u3e4xO4nYRqbwv8=; b=pDGGJ0E9TiuqeKcdB8OOIkd6rh1cNWRUHQKSIvAJoxjWR5MtHdoE35+y45CEllRm/x 7SOYtMIIBWuEDQdKQ+3mBG4SQPaBdN6krWAcvZSPRXuzOTS0CEQxlMx8v2Z4GoSRpQrn ouqHkLmuaiGYZKztfQsmdSMGq9T7/LQuH9qCHJUo3AfOAHtA9YqAXddSs6aY/+H3KFX4 Oq+EVNPlDd62pQ5RhaoKV7uuMGDtcob+aMl1KYsf/DWkKX2lMOCG4KUirKU0lcUA9eUy vFWUUMqddOe7JE7SzQYwWrB+ZjsdRncys9vw1I84bTpssBRaRMbkuj2wCn+yUhMgzNvw LIeA== X-Received: by 10.182.231.138 with SMTP id tg10mr9274975obc.44.1399594033386; Thu, 08 May 2014 17:07:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.156.7.172] (mobile-166-171-250-152.mycingular.net. [166.171.250.152]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id qh7sm5202643obc.13.2014.05.08.17.07.10 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 08 May 2014 17:07:11 -0700 (PDT) References: <00B57139-F6A6-48B4-969D-A90EAF638062@iii.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (11D201) From: Bernard Aboba Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 17:07:07 -0700 To: Mary Barnes Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/WfgJ0sFcNaJ3v947GJR0ybRhZwM Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 00:07:22 -0000 On May 8, 2014, at 12:13 PM, Mary Barnes wrote:= >=20 > Honestly, I find this extremely disappointing. In the end, if your audio i= sn't good, then the meeting is not accessible to the community (myself inclu= ded) that might not happen the $s to travel for the meeting. [BA] I have heard rumors that there is an audio codec that can provide excel= lent audio quality across a range of bandwidths so that remote participants c= an hear and even speak. Supposedly this technology was named after a cartoo= n penguin ( http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opus_the_Penguin). Also there is a rumour that there are browsers supporting camera devices, so= that remote participants can see and even show their own faces (using a tec= hnology known to the ancient Greeks as 'get users of Medea', see:=20 http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medea). Lastly there are rumours relating to support for screen sharing, and even wh= ispers that the shadowy group known as "the tools team" has put a server onl= ine supporting all of this. No doubt this group is related to the cast of th= e 'Home Improvement' TV show (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Improvemen= t_(TV_series)). Of course, these are mere rumours that no respectable person would give any c= redence to, and therefore an august body such as this one must cast them asi= de lest it risk being distracted from its mission.= From nobody Thu May 8 20:10:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2202F1A015C for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 20:10:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id huOI8iLgNS2J for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 20:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout-07.mxes.net (mxout-07.mxes.net [216.86.168.182]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F33CF1A0154 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 20:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.4.100] (unknown [128.107.239.233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B7E3D22E1FA; Thu, 8 May 2014 23:10:13 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Cullen Jennings In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 21:10:10 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <682CE2BB-F20A-4A87-A4FC-B686CD581743@iii.ca> References: <00B57139-F6A6-48B4-969D-A90EAF638062@iii.ca> To: Mary Barnes X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/JbouJJMzfvb8JyScUvveTKmUC9o Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 03:10:27 -0000 Mary, I really did not meet to create a storm on this.=20 I=92m glad to do whatever we can but as you know, when we have a room = with 50 people in it, the problems is microphones, speakers, and echo = cancelation. I don=92t know what we will have in the way of mics, a = floor setup that lets people move to mics, or ECan that can deal with a = room both that large.=20 I have attended two IETF remotely and the experience was pretty awful on = both and that was in a dedicated location set up in advance with an AV = support team. I think everyone that has ever remote attended an IETF = meeting has seen that being remote, even when set up in the best of all = possible ways, is much worse than being there. If you=92ve got any = preference on what you want us to use - I=92m sure we can get whatever = of the major systems you want and 800 numbers and such on webex. I=92m = sure we can have webex or hangouts if that is the preference. But I = can=92t promise that remote people will hear everything and I can more = or less promises that I have never seen a set up where lots of remote = people speaking worked out well.=20 On May 8, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Mary Barnes = wrote: > Honestly, I find this extremely disappointing. In the end, if your = audio isn't good, then the meeting is not accessible to the community = (myself included) that might not happen the $s to travel for the = meeting. When we had CLUE WG interim meetings, we worked very hard to = ensure we had quality audio for the recording and any remote = participants. My understanding is that this the usual expectation for = official IETF WG meetings.=20 >=20 > Regards, > Mary. >=20 >=20 > On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 12:50 PM, Cullen Jennings = wrote: >=20 > As long as the room supports it, I imagine we will have a live stream = from either WebEX or Hangouts - not sure which yet. For remote feedback = back to the room there will be the usual xmpp for RTCWeb and IRC for = WebRTC. I don=92t know what the situation is in the room for mic=92s etc = but we will have remote access as best we can. >=20 >=20 > On May 8, 2014, at 10:02 AM, Mary Barnes = wrote: >=20 > > Is there remote participation information available? I could not = find anything in my email archives nor on the mailing list. > > > > Thanks, > > Mary. > > > > > > On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Cullen Jennings = wrote: > > > > Below is a the current agenda for the upcoming RTCWEB Interim = (essentially, we have the morning sessions for the three days May 19, = May 20, May 21 2014). If you have not filled in your participation in = the doodle poll, please do so at: http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn. = That helps us plan space and food as well as have badges ready. > > > > Thanks > > > > Ted, Sean, Cullen > > > > > > Interim Meeting RTCWEB May 2014 > > http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn > > > > Day 1 > > > > Admin Trivia (15m) - Chairs > > > > RTP + Media (75m) Magnus Westerlund and Harald Alvestrand > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-05 > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-03 > > > > JSEP (2.5h) Eric Rescorla > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06 > > > > > > Day 2 > > > > Data Channel (4h) Randell Jesup > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-08 > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-04 > > > > > > Day 3 > > > > Security ( 2h ) Eric Rescorla > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06 > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09 > > > > ALPN ( 15m ) Martin Thomson > > draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn-00 > > > > Consent Freshness ( 30m) Martin Thomson > > > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02 > > > > > > Matters arising from webrtc meetings ( remaining time) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > rtcweb mailing list > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > >=20 >=20 From nobody Fri May 9 01:15:56 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 683E61A020F for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 01:15:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sDTIP8tLNJLr for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 01:15:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x22c.google.com (mail-wg0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB9D81A0201 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 01:15:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f44.google.com with SMTP id a1so3546286wgh.15 for ; Fri, 09 May 2014 01:15:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-type:thread-index:content-language; bh=EULJMosw7Oof/bLMc2LtSRQRSKRMByNQCpWzm/TKIIs=; b=Qdqhtx50DfcpJ9rSDzS6T9EN/B0H08jWjpaSAPqZ6V35+Yg3XpJmAq8PIOMJhbWqEj gTMUT3vJdluFt8SdD5j9XCAqRGUHW/UvsVIcluWpog2ocR8fTgKDAnlJpd70yh052ghF C+YOtxcnkkcMWBA5pbef2nDT1XtVwnh2g4Km7ci8shO8d39cT+yhIN5r+ViCTgGiTY/4 fP3MLR5y9Y4wDI1U9jQ6o2/zEgUblsKo4oSyX/cXAzSxNXkfPm43H6cbuWO40c8sImL1 KV9wYvRqOQdeEs0GvzeN285tQ04vYCkROsjuy4ubZ/C5wtmVXlWq0vpp/U1fCvGP8xK0 ufVg== X-Received: by 10.194.1.242 with SMTP id 18mr7393279wjp.22.1399623346490; Fri, 09 May 2014 01:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from RoniE ([109.67.104.144]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id p18sm3795332wik.3.2014.05.09.01.15.43 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 09 May 2014 01:15:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roni Even" To: "'Ted Hardie'" , "'Mary Barnes'" References: In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 11:15:36 +0300 Message-ID: <036a01cf6b5e$dfd686f0$9f8394d0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_036B_01CF6B78.0524D060" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQHRpgS1ZGpXIfU2AqXgv1vmfvg5hAJVaIJSActAgVabEmwRcA== Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/pvBeB0qaX4WKlhfs47IVEQBFRgc Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 08:15:54 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_036B_01CF6B78.0524D060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I plan to attend remotely but based on the time difference will be also = happy if recording will be avialble Roni Even =20 From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ted Hardie Sent: 08 May, 2014 7:42 PM To: Mary Barnes Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 =20 On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Mary Barnes = wrote: Is there remote participation information available? I could not find = anything in my email archives nor on the mailing list. =20 Thanks, Mary. =20 =E2=80=8BHi Mary, Thanks for raising the question; the answer may depend slightly on how = many people are attending remotely. =20 Anyone who is currently planning to attend remotely, can you let the = chairs know? thanks, Ted =20 =20 On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote: Below is a the current agenda for the upcoming RTCWEB Interim = (essentially, we have the morning sessions for the three days May 19, = May 20, May 21 2014). If you have not filled in your participation in = the doodle poll, please do so at: http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn. = That helps us plan space and food as well as have badges ready. Thanks Ted, Sean, Cullen Interim Meeting RTCWEB May 2014 http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn Day 1 Admin Trivia (15m) - Chairs RTP + Media (75m) Magnus Westerlund and Harald Alvestrand draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-05 draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-03 JSEP (2.5h) Eric Rescorla draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06 Day 2 Data Channel (4h) Randell Jesup draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-08 draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-04 Day 3 Security ( 2h ) Eric Rescorla draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06 draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09 ALPN ( 15m ) Martin Thomson draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn-00 Consent Freshness ( 30m) Martin Thomson draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02 Matters arising from webrtc meetings ( remaining time) _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb =20 _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb =20 ------=_NextPart_000_036B_01CF6B78.0524D060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I plan to attend remotely but based on the time difference will be = also happy if recording will be avialble

Roni Even

 

From:= = rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ted = Hardie
Sent: 08 May, 2014 7:42 PM
To: Mary = Barnes
Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] = Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, = 2014

 

On = Thu, May 8, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com> = wrote:

Is there = remote participation information available?  I could not find = anything in my email archives nor on the mailing = list.

 

Thanks,<= /o:p>

Mary.

 

=E2=80=8BHi = Mary,

Thanks for raising the question; = the answer may depend slightly on how many people are attending = remotely. 

Anyone = who is currently planning to attend remotely, can you let the chairs = know?

thanks,

Ted



 

 

On Thu, = May 8, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> = wrote:


Below is a the current = agenda for the upcoming RTCWEB Interim (essentially, we have the morning = sessions for the three days May 19, May 20, May 21 2014).  If you = have not filled in your participation in the doodle poll, please do so = at: http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn. That helps us = plan space and food as well as have badges = ready.

Thanks

Ted, Sean, Cullen


Interim Meeting = RTCWEB May 2014
http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn

Day = 1

Admin Trivia (15m) - Chairs

RTP + Media  (75m) = Magnus Westerlund and Harald = Alvestrand
draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13
draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-0= 5
draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-03

JSEP (2.5h) Eric = Rescorla
draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06


Day 2

Data = Channel (4h) Randell = Jesup
draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-08
draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-prot= ocol-04


Day 3

Security ( 2h ) Eric = Rescorla
draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06
draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-a= rch-09

ALPN ( 15m ) Martin = Thomson
draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn-00

Consent Freshness ( 30m) = Martin = Thomson

draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02


Mat= ters arising from webrtc meetings ( remaining = time)


_______________________________________________
rtcwe= b mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

 


______________________________________= _________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

 

------=_NextPart_000_036B_01CF6B78.0524D060-- From nobody Fri May 9 02:53:53 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 712071A0237 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 02:53:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jjc5SGXRFm6Z for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 02:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A53A31A023D for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 02:53:49 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-f790e6d000001067-d4-536ca5a84998 Received: from ESESSHC009.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 86.12.04199.8A5AC635; Fri, 9 May 2014 11:53:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.47) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.174.1; Fri, 9 May 2014 11:53:43 +0200 Message-ID: <536CA59F.3090707@ericsson.com> Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 11:53:35 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Emil Ivov , Colin Perkins References: <2CE99351-87F9-4815-913A-092C1B703D8A@csperkins.org> <536BB52B.50102@jitsi.org> <536BFBC2.4090107@jitsi.org> In-Reply-To: <536BFBC2.4090107@jitsi.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrNLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje6KpTnBBis/CFksf3mC0WLNzgks Fmv/tbM7MHtMu3+fzWPJkp9MHv/fBAYwR3HZpKTmZJalFunbJXBlnN80ib1gvlHF7/MfmBsY L2p0MXJySAiYSKzZvIAdwhaTuHBvPVsXIxeHkMBRRolLB76zQDjLGCWOzn3CDFLFK6AtsX7v PkYQm0VARWLhpHksIDabgIXEzR+NbCC2qECwxIaHf9kh6gUlTs58AlYjIuAkMWHmTrA5zALq EncWnwOrERawllg28yzU5htMEn+WTgJr4BTQlPja/QBoGQfQeeISPY1BEL0GEkcWzWGFsOUl mrfOBpspBHRbQ1MH6wRGoVlIVs9C0jILScsCRuZVjKLFqcVJuelGRnqpRZnJxcX5eXp5qSWb GIGhfXDLb4MdjC+fOx5iFOBgVOLhVTiWHSzEmlhWXJl7iFGag0VJnPfbWfdgIYH0xJLU7NTU gtSi+KLSnNTiQ4xMHJxSDYyTvj89ccToP2dZKTvDo/0dJS5anA8f9J5wzJCd8M12Hydv6zKu abNVtqTcE05cXHqax3b5hHXtXsyf13b0djLsdDopo3j5s/VeG+VlZl1xh5eukb2+ftay/Q9+ /Njp1PFAO+3zQY0KlQqphZ0Sh7e77vLrOVikFeK2O1fgwT4j/ffPBPvlOCyVWIozEg21mIuK EwGuUY/BTgIAAA== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/IvnaN6Hx7eehObofu-ZlJMqS8fQ Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Review of draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 09:53:52 -0000 On 2014-05-08 23:48, Emil Ivov wrote: > > > On 08.05.14, 21:02, Colin Perkins wrote: >> On 8 May 2014, at 17:47, Emil Ivov wrote: >>> On 08.05.14, 14:54, Colin Perkins wrote: >>>> On 8 May 2014, at 13:43, Bernard Aboba >>>> wrote: >>>>>> On May 8, 2014, at 3:45, Colin Perkins >>>>>> wrote: The fix here is to delete “In the absence of a >>>>>> concrete congestion control algorithm, all”, leaving the text >>>>>> as “WebRTC implementations MUST implement the RTP circuit >>>>>> breaker…” since as you note, we want the circuit breaker even >>>>>> if there is congestion control. >>>>> >>>>> [BA] The question I have is whether this would be widely >>>>> implemented. The Circuit Breaker algorithm pauses sessions, but >>>>> has no mechanism to resume them, so it increases brittleness. >>>> >>>> The circuit breaker is a mechanism of last resort. If we've >>>> designed it correctly, it will only stop sessions that are >>>> otherwise unusable. >>> >>> Shouldn't we have the "if" cleared before making this a MUST? It is >>> not clear to me that we’ve managed to avoid excessive false >>> positives for example. >> >> The experiments that I, Varun, and Zahed have done look to show the >> circuit breaker behaving as desired. > > That sounds interesting and I'd actually be happy to see the data > although I can easily believe that circuit breakers could come in handy > in certain situations. > > draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers-05 contains some very useful > guidelines on determining how and when an application might want to > consider employing them. > > So I am fine with the concept ... *as long as* the choice is left to the > application. > > I don't believe that any of the breakers however have the reliability to > only trigger in cases where ceasing media transmission is the right > thing to do. I don't think such a thing is possible given how use cases > and requirements vary from one application to the next. The circuit breakers triggers when the conditions are really bad. I think the one condition which is most likely to give a false positive is the loss of feedback, i.e. that one loses all RTCP packets under 3 regular reporting intervals. It is very hard to define programmatic rules that always do the "Right thing" here. Because with hindsight you can determine one action more appropriate than another. > >> If you know of scenarios where >> there are false positives, I’d like to see your data so we can >> improve the circuit breaker. > > It's funny you should ask. I am currently having connectivity issues and > my media transmissions would every now and then be interrupted for > periods that go beyond two or three RR packets. I am very happy that my > sessions just resume when things go back to normal. Well, the important aspect here is how your sending client behaves during these outages. The circuit breaker do requires you to have cut back the transmission in these conditions to less than a 10th of the nominal rate during these outages if the circuit breaker triggers. That means that you can continue to send low bit-rate traffic to detect when the path is restored and ramp up again with your congestion control. Thus, I don't see circuit breakers preventing a congestion control algorithm to operate under these conditions and maintain the session. If the congestion control isn't there that is another question. > > In cases like demo stands or some forms of video surveillance, lack of > media for several (tens) of seconds is not really a problem, whereas a > break that requires human intervention could be one. > > Cases where SFUs decide to selectively NOT forward some RTP but forward > all RTCP would also trigger false positives, while they are not a > problem for applications that are aware of their behaviour. A SFU must provide consistent RTCP, i.e. RTCP SRs from the SFU must provide RTCP statistics for what is actually forwarded, not what the SFU received from the originating RTP sender. > > IP layer network mobility à la NEMO, temporary uplink saturation because > someone mistakenly started a torrent client (and quit a few seconds > later), someone tripping over a cable and then re-plugging it, buggy NAT > gateways ... all of those could potentially trigger circuit breakers and > in all these cases both the application and the user may prefer that > they don't. Triggering the circuit breakers just requires the sending client to have taken sufficient action to prevent persistent congestion. If it does it can continue to transmit. > > Obviously browsers are a special case but we already have consent > freshness there and that likely covers most of the concerns for > undesirable streaming that circuit breakers address. The point of the circuit breakers is to prevent situations where RTP senders continue to blast away into a persistent congestion situation or onto paths that are broken. > > So again, I feel circuit breakers could be a useful informative > reference but they can be harmful if REQUIRED. I think they will from a protect the network perspective needs to be REQUIRED. As I have tried to explain above, there are actions that are allowed within the circuit breaker specification that allows a sender to throttle its traffic sufficiently when it detects a path breakage, to keep monitoring it until it recovers and then resume transmission. But, if the implementation in the sender does not care to implement such functionality, the circuit breaker do require them to cease transmission. But, it do become a implementers choice. In addition I don't think IETF should publish an RFC for a RTP media plane that doesn't have some REQUIRED behaviour when it comes to protecting the network in persistent congestion situations. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri May 9 04:22:15 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF6D21A0282 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 04:22:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u--MZw0c5jO7 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 04:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CCE51A0277 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 04:22:08 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-f790e6d000001067-f9-536cba5a8b98 Received: from ESESSHC013.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 2E.0F.04199.A5ABC635; Fri, 9 May 2014 13:22:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.59) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.174.1; Fri, 9 May 2014 13:22:02 +0200 Message-ID: <536CBA4E.9050906@ericsson.com> Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 13:21:50 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Spring , "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrMLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvjW70rpxgg39bWC3mTXjPZLH2Xzu7 A5PHzll32T2WLPnJFMAUxWWTkpqTWZZapG+XwJVxovE0U8GSkoqGniOMDYxbYrsYOTkkBEwk Fhy6zwJhi0lcuLeeDcQWEjjKKDH5pHkXIxeQvYxRovfodmaQBK+AtsSpSdcZQWwWARWJK78b wGw2AQuJmz8awZpFBYIlNjz8yw5RLyhxcuYTsAUiAh4Sa1bdBasRFrCWWDbzLJDNAbQgQGLt 93yQMKdAoMT248fYQcISAuISPY1BIGFmAT2JKVdbGCFseYnmrbOZIc7Ulmho6mCdwCg4C8my WUhaZiFpWcDIvIpRtDi1OCk33chIL7UoM7m4OD9PLy+1ZBMjMFQPbvltsIPx5XPHQ4wCHIxK PLwKx7KDhVgTy4orcw8xSnOwKInzfjvrHiwkkJ5YkpqdmlqQWhRfVJqTWnyIkYmDU6qBUfPc s2Xf3d+ofLj9/FpL/pMTKhNzm9lK311KWvkz/3rlo/JJm973vWD+MWXLpovxN9qn9vB7s+h9 Max4lbhR2H5zh+s2+91Nik0J2h55fAVsWa4F4VXr71RyGp5c5r96l+HKkt37+d/bVmmdtuMz /Bi5NclqR0w1h1SL0b8J8395tTpOTDqwXYmlOCPRUIu5qDgRALCb4pQ2AgAA Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/LGZZRzhpAiCBesSjMKSOMUHLirc Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Review of draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 11:22:12 -0000 Hi Jim, Thanks for your review. I will try to comment on the the issues you raise and we will look at the paragraphs which you find the language/grammar a bit strange. On 2014-05-08 16:49, Jim Spring wrote: > 4.5. RTP and RTCP Multiplexing > > .... > > Note that the use of RTP and RTCP multiplexed onto a single > transport-layer flow ensures that there is occasional traffic sent > on that port, even if there is no active media traffic. This can be > useful to keep NAT bindings alive, and is the recommend method for > application level keep-alives of RTP sessions [RFC6263]. > > [JS] In the case of MUX, this may be the recommended method per > RFC6263 for keeping NAT bindings alive, but for WebRTC, we have also > talked about using STUN connectivity checks > [draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness]. It seems a bit odd > having multiple methods specified. If we adopt > draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness, can the above be removed or > a section added to note the new draft. This text is informative about one of the motivation and properties of RTP / RTCP multiplexing. The RTCP keep-alive is an automatic effect you get, one that you can't turn off. I don't see any issues here. Yes, using consent will further verify and perform keep-alive of the network path but they are not in any type of conflict. So the note is unnecessary in the context of a full RTCWEB implementation. For interop with other systems maybe less so. > > > 4.7. Symmetric RTP/RTCP > > [JS] General question / comment - most other sections of the document > make a distinction when a WebRTC talks to another WebRTC client and > when talking to a legacy one. This section does not, are there > concerns where a legacy client will not support Symmetric RTP/RTCP > per RFC4961? The reason is that Symmetric RTP/RTCP has been the dominating configuration for RTP/RTCP for a decade. You don't work in an NATed environment unless you do this. Thus, extremely few legacy system is expected to use symmetric RTP/RTCP. > > > 4.8. Choice of RTP Synchronisation Source (SSRC) > > > Implementations are REQUIRED to support signalled RTP > synchronisation source (SSRC) identifiers, using the "a=ssrc:" SDP > attribute defined in Section 4.1 and Section 5 of [RFC5576]. > > [JS] This section appears to mandate SDP for signaling, other > sections use SDP as an example for signaling. Recommend reworking > this to not require specifics about SDP. Yes, we will address this. See also Bernard's comments. > > > 7.1. Boundary Conditions and Circuit Breakers > > In the absence of a concrete congestion control algorithm, all > WebRTC implementations MUST implement the RTP circuit breaker > algorithm that is described in > [I-D.ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers]. > > [JS] At IETF 89, my understanding was that there were concerns > around the use of circuit breakers and the impact on call quality > even in cases of very minimal packet loss. Missing history/context, > are circuit breakers a "MUST"? Circuit breakers has been mandated since the circuit breaker work was started. The whole intention with circuit breaker was to provide something simple to implement, but robust that prevents that WebRTC endpoints (, other RTP applications also) to be a contributing source to persistent congestion. Where was the discussion that you refer to above? > > > 10. Signalling Considerations > > RTP Profile: The name of the RTP profile to be used in session. > The RTP/AVP [RFC3551] and RTP/AVPF [RFC4585] profiles can > interoperate on basic level, as can their secure variants RTP/SAVP > [RFC3711] and RTP/SAVPF [RFC5124]. The secure variants of the > profiles do not directly interoperate with the non-secure variants, > due to the presence of additional header fields for authentication in > SRTP packets and cryptographic transformation of the payload. > WebRTC requires the use of the RTP/SAVPF profile, and this MUST be > signalled if SDP is used. Interworking functions might transform > this into the RTP/SAVP profile for a legacy use case, by indicating > to the WebRTC end-point that the RTP/SAVPF is used, and limiting the > usage of the "a=rtcp-fb:" attribute to indicate a trr-int value of 4 > seconds. > > [JS] Another example assuming SDP for signaling. RFC5124 calls out > other possible signaling options as well. Will address. > > > 11. WebRTC API Considerations > > [JS] General note - this section as well as Section 12 had sections > where the grammar seemed off a bit. Sometimes whole paragraphs come > across as a bit awkward. Due to time constraints, I will call out > the ones that immediately stood out. I'm happy to help with some > text rewrite, but not until later this week/early next week due to > time. We will look into these, and we happily receive suggestions. But to avoid double work, please check with us authors directly if we already have done something. We intended to produce an update of the document next week prior the interim meeting. Cheers Magnus > > > Figure 1 on Page 31 and Figure 2 on Page 32 should be centered. > > Specific corrections: > > The same MediaStreamTrack can also be included in multiple > MediaStreams, thus multiple sets of MediaStreams can implicitly need > to use the same synchronisation base. To ensure that this works in > all cases, and don't forces a end-point to change synchronisation > base and CNAME in the middle of a ongoing delivery of any packet > streams, which would cause media disruption; all MediaStreamTracks > and their associated SSRCs originating from the same end-point needs > to be sent using the same CNAME within one RTCPeerConnection. This > is motivating the strong recommendation in Section 4.9 to only use a > single CNAME. > > > [JS] > > The same MediaStreamTrack can also be included in multiple > MediaStreams, thus multiple sets of MediaStreams can implicitly need > to use the same synchronisation base. To ensure that this works in > all cases, and *doesn't force an* end-point to change > synchronisation base and CNAME in the middle of *the* delivery of any > *ongoing* packet streams, which would cause media disruption; all > MediaStreamTracks and their associated SSRCs originating from the > same end-point *need* to be sent using the same CNAME within one > RTCPeerConnection. This is motivating the strong recommendation in > Section 4.9 to only use a single CNAME. > > ----- > > The requirement on using the same CNAME for all SSRCs that originates > from the same end-point, does not require middleboxes that forwards > traffic from multiple end-points to only use a single CNAME. > > [JS] > > The requirement on using the same CNAME for all SSRCs that > *originate* from the same end-point does not require *a middlebox* > that forwards traffic from multiple end-points to only use a single > CNAME. > > ----- > > Different CNAMEs normally need to be used for different > RTCPeerConnection instances, as specified in Section 4.9. Having > two communication sessions with the same CNAME could enable tracking > of a user or device across different services (see Section 4.4.1 of > [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-security] for details). A web application can > request that the CNAMEs used in different RTCPeerConnection within a > same-orign context to be the same, this allow for synchronization of > the endpoint's RTP packet streams across the different > RTCPeerConnections. > > [JS] > > Different CNAMEs normally need to be used for different > RTCPeerConnection instances, as specified in Section 4.9. Having > two communication sessions with the same CNAME could enable tracking > of a user or device across different services (see Section 4.4.1 of > [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-security] for details). A web application can > request that the CNAMEs used in different RTCPeerConnection *objects > (within a* > > * same-orign context) be* the same, this allow for synchronization > of the endpoint's RTP packet streams across the different > RTCPeerConnections. > > ----- > > Note: The motivation for supporting reception of multiple CNAMEs are > to allow for forward compatibility with any future changes.... > > [JS] > > Note: The motivation for supporting reception of multiple CNAMEs *is* > to allow for forward compatibility with any future changes.... > > > ----- > > To separate media with different purposes: An end-point might want > to send RTP packet streams that have different purposes on different > RTP sessions, to make it easy for the peer device to distinguish > them. For example, some centralised multiparty conferencing systems > display the active speaker in high resolution, but show low > resolution "thumbnails" of other participants. Such systems might > configure the end-points to send simulcast high- and low-resolution > versions of their video using separate RTP sessions, to simplify the > operation of the RTP middlebox. In the WebRTC context this is > currently possible to accomplished by establishing multiple WebRTC > MediaStreamTracks that have the same media source in one (or more) > RTCPeerConnection. > > [JS] > > To separate media with different purposes: An end-point might want > to send RTP packet streams that have different purposes on different > RTP sessions, to make it easy for the peer device to distinguish > them. For example, some centralised multiparty conferencing systems > display the active speaker in high resolution, but show low > resolution "thumbnails" of other participants. Such systems might > configure the end-points to send simulcast high- and low-resolution > versions of their video using separate RTP sessions, to simplify the > operation of the RTP middlebox. *In the WebRTC context this is > currently possible by establishing *multiple WebRTC > MediaStreamTracks that have the same media source in one (or more) > RTCPeerConnection. > > > ----- > > Experience with the Mbone tools (experimental RTP- based multicast > conferencing tools from the late 1990s) has showed that RTCP > reception quality reports for third parties can usefully be presented > to the users in a way that helps them understand asymmetric network > problems, and the approach of using separate RTP sessions prevents > this. > > [JS] > > Experience with the Mbone tools (experimental RTP- based multicast > conferencing tools from the late 1990s) has showed that RTCP > reception quality reports for third parties can* be presented to > users* in a way that helps them understand asymmetric network > problems, and the approach of using separate RTP sessions prevents > this. > > > ----- > > > There are various methods of implementation for the middlebox. If > implemented as a standard RTP mixer or translator, a single RTP > session will extend across the middlebox and encompass all the > end-points in one multi-party session. Other types of middlebox > might use separate RTP sessions between each end-point and the > middlebox. A common aspect is that these RTP middleboxes can use a > number of tools to control the media encoding provided by a WebRTC > end-point. This includes functions like requesting breaking the > encoding chain and have the encoder produce a so called Intra frame. > Another is limiting the bit-rate of a given stream to better suit the > mixer view of the multiple down-streams. Others are controlling the > most suitable frame-rate, picture resolution, the trade-off between > frame-rate and spatial quality. The middlebox gets the significant > responsibility to correctly perform congestion control, source > identification, manage synchronisation while providing the > application with suitable media optimizations. The middlebox is also > has to be a trusted node when it comes to security, since it > manipulates either the RTP header or the media itself (or both) > received from one end- point, before sending it on towards the > end-point(s), thus they need to be able to decrypt and then encrypt > it before sending it out. > > [JS] > > There are various methods of implementation for the middlebox. If > implemented as a standard RTP mixer or translator, a single RTP > session will extend across the middlebox and encompass all the > end-points in one multi-party session. Other types of *middleboxes* > might use separate RTP sessions between each end-point and the > middlebox. A common aspect is that these RTP middleboxes can use a > number of tools to control the media encoding provided by a WebRTC > end-point. This includes functions like requesting *the breaking of > the* encoding chain and have the encoder produce a so called Intra > frame. Another is limiting the bit-rate of a given stream to better > suit the mixer view of the multiple down-streams. Others are > controlling the most suitable frame-rate, picture resolution, the > trade-off between frame-rate and spatial quality. The middlebox *has* > the responsibility to correctly perform congestion control, source > identification, manage synchronisation while providing the > application with suitable media optimizations. The middlebox also > has to be a trusted node when it comes to security, since it > manipulates either the RTP header or the media itself (or both) > received from one end- point, before sending it on towards the *other > *end-point(s), thus they need to be able to decrypt and then > *re-encrypt the stream* before sending it out. > > ----- > > For cryptographic verification of the source SRTP would require > additional security mechanisms, for example TESLA for SRTP [RFC4383], > that are not part of the base WebRTC standards. > > [JS NOTES] - This is the first I've seen mention of TESLA and RFC4383 > in regard to WebRTC security. My gut tells me rather than referencing > a particular doc > > here, there should be a relevant section of > [draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch] sited. > > > > _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri May 9 05:13:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E60321A0289 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 05:12:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d_sBs-BItbL6 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 05:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-f176.google.com (mail-we0-f176.google.com [74.125.82.176]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 570F01A0285 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 05:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f176.google.com with SMTP id q59so3801131wes.21 for ; Fri, 09 May 2014 05:12:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=EXUpAvxIx+b7smwIbDGTYHGjZ/rCD4vUF+7nQxEWf68=; b=Gjk49TSy9Ph6u+cLHxUBi4qhb+vbITndDZGk3sGNQOsVuyIE3pddQ9R2W9R6kr6LWT qsZ2xPqN2+v/SQIYN0Wy9chdTYfo8Tz0MTLSql7Q1EkPLTiiB/FMw/MziXzdxyf1nRNa R4AqXo/umhNd8dYf66EuK8XYFhFvwCuClfj5SQy52QqF1uJ/Z5Mr26Y7si/e/sEiBn6I QU28YimSiKtutgw5Tt3x9ipSgV7mOGVlpY3EoLHFmFC1STWOSmodwL6PY6r6Ekr67P09 GlCCjUD1UsasQ/zPUMWpmJpx1JPVjwYu170+rzJ4As4GjgaViUdX7+yXkBaMI0bUjdi9 LZ0w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQm2ODBEkba4c+HYOhRQDdITtWNCj+lvEsqmEwso2zB1yWtrghCWWcrd67LFW7uwbWo0+PN/ X-Received: by 10.194.201.73 with SMTP id jy9mr7916211wjc.51.1399637552516; Fri, 09 May 2014 05:12:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pastropnet.u-strasbg.fr ([2001:660:4701:1001:38f1:8eef:bd05:691e]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id s2sm4801085wia.7.2014.05.09.05.12.30 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 09 May 2014 05:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <536CC62E.20103@jitsi.org> Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 14:12:30 +0200 From: Emil Ivov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Magnus Westerlund , Colin Perkins References: <2CE99351-87F9-4815-913A-092C1B703D8A@csperkins.org> <536BB52B.50102@jitsi.org> <536BFBC2.4090107@jitsi.org> <536CA59F.3090707@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <536CA59F.3090707@ericsson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/Uoi1G_xIJPGnoo2KsdeTTMLmpN0 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Review of draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 12:12:45 -0000 Hey Magnus, On 09.05.14, 11:53, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > On 2014-05-08 23:48, Emil Ivov wrote: >> >> >> On 08.05.14, 21:02, Colin Perkins wrote: >>> On 8 May 2014, at 17:47, Emil Ivov wrote: >>>> On 08.05.14, 14:54, Colin Perkins wrote: >>>>> On 8 May 2014, at 13:43, Bernard Aboba >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> On May 8, 2014, at 3:45, Colin Perkins >>>>>>> wrote: The fix here is to delete “In the absence of a >>>>>>> concrete congestion control algorithm, all”, leaving the text >>>>>>> as “WebRTC implementations MUST implement the RTP circuit >>>>>>> breaker…” since as you note, we want the circuit breaker even >>>>>>> if there is congestion control. >>>>>> >>>>>> [BA] The question I have is whether this would be widely >>>>>> implemented. The Circuit Breaker algorithm pauses sessions, but >>>>>> has no mechanism to resume them, so it increases brittleness. >>>>> >>>>> The circuit breaker is a mechanism of last resort. If we've >>>>> designed it correctly, it will only stop sessions that are >>>>> otherwise unusable. >>>> >>>> Shouldn't we have the "if" cleared before making this a MUST? It is >>>> not clear to me that we’ve managed to avoid excessive false >>>> positives for example. >>> >>> The experiments that I, Varun, and Zahed have done look to show the >>> circuit breaker behaving as desired. >> >> That sounds interesting and I'd actually be happy to see the data >> although I can easily believe that circuit breakers could come in handy >> in certain situations. >> >> draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers-05 contains some very useful >> guidelines on determining how and when an application might want to >> consider employing them. >> >> So I am fine with the concept ... *as long as* the choice is left to the >> application. >> >> I don't believe that any of the breakers however have the reliability to >> only trigger in cases where ceasing media transmission is the right >> thing to do. I don't think such a thing is possible given how use cases >> and requirements vary from one application to the next. > > The circuit breakers triggers when the conditions are really bad. Well, not really. They trigger when specific events occur. Whether those events are caused by network conditions and whether those network conditions actually are "really bad" is often a matter of perspective. > I > think the one condition which is most likely to give a false positive is > the loss of feedback, i.e. that one loses all RTCP packets under 3 > regular reporting intervals. > > It is very hard to define programmatic rules that always do the "Right > thing" here. Because with hindsight you can determine one action more > appropriate than another. Yes, I agree. >>> If you know of scenarios where >>> there are false positives, I’d like to see your data so we can >>> improve the circuit breaker. >> >> It's funny you should ask. I am currently having connectivity issues and >> my media transmissions would every now and then be interrupted for >> periods that go beyond two or three RR packets. I am very happy that my >> sessions just resume when things go back to normal. > > Well, the important aspect here is how your sending client behaves > during these outages. The circuit breaker do requires you to have cut > back the transmission in these conditions to less than a 10th of the > nominal rate during these outages if the circuit breaker triggers. That > means that you can continue to send low bit-rate traffic to detect when > the path is restored and ramp up again with your congestion control. > Thus, I don't see circuit breakers preventing a congestion control > algorithm to operate under these conditions and maintain the session. If > the congestion control isn't there that is another question. > >> >> In cases like demo stands or some forms of video surveillance, lack of >> media for several (tens) of seconds is not really a problem, whereas a >> break that requires human intervention could be one. >> >> Cases where SFUs decide to selectively NOT forward some RTP but forward >> all RTCP would also trigger false positives, while they are not a >> problem for applications that are aware of their behaviour. > > A SFU must provide consistent RTCP, i.e. RTCP SRs from the SFU must > provide RTCP statistics for what is actually forwarded, not what the SFU > received from the originating RTP sender. That's a lot of must-s for something that is largely an implementation choice and for which we only have informational documents. Yes, circuit breakers could probably be worked around by applications but I am not sure how trivial this would be, especially in the case of WebRTC. >> IP layer network mobility à la NEMO, temporary uplink saturation because >> someone mistakenly started a torrent client (and quit a few seconds >> later), someone tripping over a cable and then re-plugging it, buggy NAT >> gateways ... all of those could potentially trigger circuit breakers and >> in all these cases both the application and the user may prefer that >> they don't. > > Triggering the circuit breakers just requires the sending client to have > taken sufficient action to prevent persistent congestion. If it does it > can continue to transmit. > >> >> Obviously browsers are a special case but we already have consent >> freshness there and that likely covers most of the concerns for >> undesirable streaming that circuit breakers address. > > The point of the circuit breakers is to prevent situations where RTP > senders continue to blast away into a persistent congestion situation or > onto paths that are broken. Yes I get that. However we already have "consent freshness" and that will do the job in a big chunk of the cases that circuit breakers are meant to protect. It is not clear to me that CBs would be a clear improvement for the remainder of the cases. >> So again, I feel circuit breakers could be a useful informative >> reference but they can be harmful if REQUIRED. > > I think they will from a protect the network perspective needs to be > REQUIRED. As I have tried to explain above, there are actions that are > allowed within the circuit breaker specification that allows a sender to > throttle its traffic sufficiently when it detects a path breakage, to > keep monitoring it until it recovers and then resume transmission. But, > if the implementation in the sender does not care to implement such > functionality, the circuit breaker do require them to cease > transmission. But, it do become a implementers choice. OK then, if we agree that this needs to be an implementation choice then why don't we just inform implementers of that possibility and potentially advise the W3C to add API calls to enable their use? > In addition I don't think IETF should publish an RFC for a RTP media > plane that doesn't have some REQUIRED behaviour when it comes to > protecting the network in persistent congestion situations. I would agree if we actually had a flawless mechanism that would only trigger in cases where it absolutely has to. As you have indicated yourself: It is very hard to define programmatic rules that always do the "Right thing" here Cheers, Emil -- https://jitsi.org From nobody Fri May 9 07:42:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19FE41A02B3 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 07:42:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I6MJ7bIiMkxi for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 07:42:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout-08.mxes.net (mxout-08.mxes.net [216.86.168.183]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFE661A02B0 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 07:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.4.100] (unknown [128.107.239.234]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 76DFA50A86 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 10:41:54 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Cullen Jennings In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 08:41:52 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2FAF1D94-DBAB-43EB-97CF-7ACA2213A7B5@iii.ca> References: To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/nYz_RLkyBTYOoZE2Wfdlfs3d1EU Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 14:42:03 -0000 Overall the document looks in excellent shape. I do have a bunch of = comments but they are all pretty easy to deal with.=20 Page 5 I think that draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream-optimisation should be = MAY not a MUST. We don=92t loose significant interoperability by not = having it a MUST.=20 Page Sending correct sync information should be MUST not SHOULD. We can=92t = make lip sync work without this and I think the flows I have seen = already send it. Note people don=92t have to deal with correctly = implementing lip sync on the receiving end, they just have to send = enough information to make it possible that receivers that want to can.=20= Has the text "support for RTCP timer reconsideration." but I don=92t = know what this means or how to implement it - suspect we just need a ref = or bit more text.=20 I=92d refer to see "reduced minimum RTCP reporting interval" be a MUST = and I could live with MAY but SHOULD is just lame for this.=20 Page 8=20 It has the text=20 An end-point that has signalled support for multiple RTP payload formats = SHOULD be able to accept data in any of those payload formats at any = time, unless it has previously signalled limitations on its decoding = capability. I think that has to be a MUST not a SHOULD or else this will not work.=20= Page 18 This has RTX (RFC4588) and MUST. RTX has turned out to be close to = useless in interactive communications systems because the RTT is just = too high to make this viable. You need to set your jitter buffer to be = larger than the RTT for this work and I am aware of any significant = internet collaborations system that sets the jitter buffer size that = high. I think this should be MAY not MUST but that said, I can easily = live with MUST, it just seems useless at a time where we are trying to = reduce the complexity of the system.=20 Page 19 It says FEC is not required. I=92m OK with this but my notes have it as = the WG previously agreed on this being required. It might be worth = putting this up on a slide in the May meeting and checking the WG is = good with no FEC. Perhaps my notes are all wrong - I did not try and go = back throughout minutes. It=92s possible the WG decided different things = and different times.=20 Page 20 Has the text=20 signalled bandwidth limits SHOULD be used to limit traffic=20 I might be reading this the wrong way but given the weak congestion = control in general, I feel pretty strongly that the browser can=92t = ignore signaled bandwidth limits and this needs to say something more = like the "MUST not exceed signaled bandwidth" Page 20-22,=20 Section 7.2 - I felt like this section was supposed to convince me it = was all OK but the more I read it the more confused I was. What does one = do if sending video on says a 768 kbps link? Send every 5 frames?=20 I think part of the confusion stemmed from the implication that to do = good congestion control, you needed a report once ever say RTT but in = RTP we could not do that so we would fall back to a far less frequent = reporting of once ever frame. But ever frame is less than the RTT in = most internet case so I was just confused by the whole section.=20 I don=92t think this section is going to help implementors much as it is = - perhaps it could just be refactored a bit to help implementers = understand how often to send RTCP and why.=20 Page 24 Has=20 All WebRTC implementations MUST be prepared to receive RTP XR report = packets, whether or not they were signaled. I disagree with this - we are in a non multicast environment with RTP = inside DTLS/SRTP. One should not be getting reports for extensions that = were not negotiated.=20 Similarly on page 25 the text has The RTP extensions to be used SHOULD be agreed upon,=20 I think this needs to be a MUST.=20 Page 27=20 I think it would be best to just remove the line=20 This document [I-D.ietf-mmusic-msid] also defines, in section 4.1, how = to map unknown source packet stream SSRCs to MediaStreamTracks and = MediaStreams. as that is not key to this spec.=20 Page 36 - 37=20 Section 12.2.2.=20 So if I read this right, it says you MUST resolve SSRC collisions but = RFC 5576 has no way to do that. What are implementors supposed to do ? Even ignoring 5576 - it=92s just not clear to me how one detects and = resolves SSRC collisions.=20 =20 Cullen with my individual contributor hat on.=20 From nobody Fri May 9 08:03:17 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D9D01A0010 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 08:03:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SuoIQsVRA-OV for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 08:03:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x229.google.com (mail-we0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::229]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C85D1A0021 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 08:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f169.google.com with SMTP id u56so4147750wes.0 for ; Fri, 09 May 2014 08:03:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=T0Tr2gTxpz2ex8BSBDH+Gorv8kouRLeFFmgzN8ZDImw=; b=obI7VPiJxLuQCehZUp/4gA/smFk2atOXvwmAGGzv+LpEkpfNUCSHz0KAUhXy5VT8Vk kUBDeD5OuUF24Kkestl1CP3JTFF5XjPv9BDB1de+pkd4h3sHactGrWTofV3IMj5+qAmj q4nyCrV0rK77Lwh9AvuCncKwxPxFzNLDiPKXa4dJAGtm+RhLKB/2L6LVXX8xQHOtRI28 Q9PTUfZbW7UJtBuDvPVeskSIqKhIdHxpjTxBPCs8szC5t3zoHjEVxV3t1DQWzCwa4rOK ARIwSYW5Foy4TSZV1ivvju5qH9BBqRVPgGfJwKsQh2zk+MXQu0N/N/+wPgb19sUQ/zSP uofw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.93.41 with SMTP id cr9mr3752631wib.7.1399647787031; Fri, 09 May 2014 08:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.93.68 with HTTP; Fri, 9 May 2014 08:03:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <682CE2BB-F20A-4A87-A4FC-B686CD581743@iii.ca> References: <00B57139-F6A6-48B4-969D-A90EAF638062@iii.ca> <682CE2BB-F20A-4A87-A4FC-B686CD581743@iii.ca> Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 10:03:06 -0500 Message-ID: From: Mary Barnes To: Cullen Jennings Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0438935728240b04f8f8e55d Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/l1DRtq_aKpOdpstfbtLCSJeNhDE Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 15:03:16 -0000 --f46d0438935728240b04f8f8e55d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It certainly would have been nice to know when the meeting was being organized that there were no plans for remote participation nor recording. That might have impacted people's decisions to not travel to the meeting. At this stage, it's way too late to book travel - airfare is $1000-1300 RT from DFW to DCA. I fully understand the logistical issues and it is a hassle to go to meeting locations early and spend 1/2-1 day setting up a room with A/V guys to ensure that you can get a reasonable experience for remote participants. I personally think it's manageable for chairs if you can get an extra microphone and ensure people speak into the microphone. I would imagine it's not possible to have a meeting with 50 people without a microphone in the room. So, I guess, I may have gained 3 extra days in my schedule and I would hope in this situation that there are meticulous notes with regards to consensus points, issue resolution, action items, etc. And, of course, there should be an understanding that while consensus may have been obtained in the meeting room, it's not reasonable to expect that no one else has input on the topic. Thanks, Mary. On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 10:10 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > > Mary, I really did not meet to create a storm on this. > > I=E2=80=99m glad to do whatever we can but as you know, when we have a ro= om with > 50 people in it, the problems is microphones, speakers, and echo > cancelation. I don=E2=80=99t know what we will have in the way of mics, a= floor > setup that lets people move to mics, or ECan that can deal with a room bo= th > that large. > > I have attended two IETF remotely and the experience was pretty awful on > both and that was in a dedicated location set up in advance with an AV > support team. I think everyone that has ever remote attended an IETF > meeting has seen that being remote, even when set up in the best of all > possible ways, is much worse than being there. If you=E2=80=99ve got any > preference on what you want us to use - I=E2=80=99m sure we can get whate= ver of the > major systems you want and 800 numbers and such on webex. I=E2=80=99m sur= e we can > have webex or hangouts if that is the preference. But I can=E2=80=99t pro= mise that > remote people will hear everything and I can more or less promises that I > have never seen a set up where lots of remote people speaking worked out > well. > > > On May 8, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Mary Barnes > wrote: > > > Honestly, I find this extremely disappointing. In the end, if your audi= o > isn't good, then the meeting is not accessible to the community (myself > included) that might not happen the $s to travel for the meeting. When w= e > had CLUE WG interim meetings, we worked very hard to ensure we had qualit= y > audio for the recording and any remote participants. My understanding is > that this the usual expectation for official IETF WG meetings. > > > > Regards, > > Mary. > > > > > > On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 12:50 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > > > > As long as the room supports it, I imagine we will have a live stream > from either WebEX or Hangouts - not sure which yet. For remote feedback > back to the room there will be the usual xmpp for RTCWeb and IRC for > WebRTC. I don=E2=80=99t know what the situation is in the room for mic=E2= =80=99s etc but we > will have remote access as best we can. > > > > > > On May 8, 2014, at 10:02 AM, Mary Barnes > wrote: > > > > > Is there remote participation information available? I could not fin= d > anything in my email archives nor on the mailing list. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Mary. > > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Cullen Jennings > wrote: > > > > > > Below is a the current agenda for the upcoming RTCWEB Interim > (essentially, we have the morning sessions for the three days May 19, May > 20, May 21 2014). If you have not filled in your participation in the > doodle poll, please do so at: http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn. That > helps us plan space and food as well as have badges ready. > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Ted, Sean, Cullen > > > > > > > > > Interim Meeting RTCWEB May 2014 > > > http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn > > > > > > Day 1 > > > > > > Admin Trivia (15m) - Chairs > > > > > > RTP + Media (75m) Magnus Westerlund and Harald Alvestrand > > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 > > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-05 > > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-03 > > > > > > JSEP (2.5h) Eric Rescorla > > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06 > > > > > > > > > Day 2 > > > > > > Data Channel (4h) Randell Jesup > > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-08 > > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-04 > > > > > > > > > Day 3 > > > > > > Security ( 2h ) Eric Rescorla > > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06 > > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09 > > > > > > ALPN ( 15m ) Martin Thomson > > > draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn-00 > > > > > > Consent Freshness ( 30m) Martin Thomson > > > > > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02 > > > > > > > > > Matters arising from webrtc meetings ( remaining time) > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > rtcweb mailing list > > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > > > > > > --f46d0438935728240b04f8f8e55d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It certainly would have been nice to know when the meeting= was being organized that there were no plans for remote participation nor = recording. That might have impacted people's decisions to not travel to= the meeting. =C2=A0At this stage, it's way too late to book travel - a= irfare is $1000-1300 RT from DFW to DCA.

I fully understand the logistical issues and it is a hassle to go = to meeting locations early and spend 1/2-1 day setting up a room with A/V g= uys to ensure that you can get a reasonable experience for remote participa= nts. =C2=A0I personally think it's manageable for chairs if you can get= an extra microphone and ensure people speak into the microphone. =C2=A0I w= ould imagine it's not possible to have a meeting with 50 people without= a microphone in the room.=C2=A0

So, I guess, I may have gained 3 extra days in my sched= ule and I would hope in this situation that there are meticulous notes with= regards to consensus points, issue resolution, action items, etc. =C2=A0An= d, of course, there should be an understanding that while consensus may hav= e been obtained in the meeting room, it's not reasonable to expect that= no one else has input on the topic. =C2=A0

Thanks,
Mary.=C2=A0


On Thu, May 8, 2014 a= t 10:10 PM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:

Mary, I really did not meet to create a storm on this.

I=E2=80=99m glad to do whatever we can but as you know, when we have a room= with 50 people in it, the problems is microphones, speakers, and echo canc= elation. I don=E2=80=99t know what we will have in the way of mics, a floor= setup that lets people move to mics, or ECan that can deal with a room bot= h that large.

I have attended two IETF remotely and the experience was pretty awful on bo= th and that was in a dedicated location set up in advance with an AV suppor= t team. I think everyone that has ever remote attended an IETF meeting has = seen that being remote, even when set up in the best of all possible ways, = is much worse than being there. =C2=A0If you=E2=80=99ve got any preference = on what you want us to use - I=E2=80=99m sure we can get whatever of the ma= jor systems you want and 800 numbers and such on webex. I=E2=80=99m sure we= can have webex or hangouts if that is the preference. But I can=E2=80=99t = promise that remote people will hear everything and I can more or less prom= ises that I have never seen a set up where lots of remote people speaking w= orked out well.


On May 8, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com> wrote:

> Honestly, I find this extremely disappointing. In the end, if your aud= io isn't good, then the meeting is not accessible to the community (mys= elf included) that might not happen the $s to travel for the meeting. =C2= =A0When we had CLUE WG interim meetings, we worked very hard to ensure we h= ad quality audio for the recording and any remote participants. =C2=A0My un= derstanding is that this the usual expectation for official IETF WG meeting= s.
>
> Regards,
> Mary.
>
>
> On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 12:50 PM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:
>
> As long as the room supports it, I imagine we will have a live stream = from either WebEX or Hangouts - not sure which yet. =C2=A0For remote feedba= ck back to the room there will be the usual xmpp for RTCWeb and IRC for Web= RTC. I don=E2=80=99t know what the situation is in the room for mic=E2=80= =99s etc but we will have remote access as best we can.
>
>
> On May 8, 2014, at 10:02 AM, Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Is there remote participation information available? =C2=A0I coul= d not find anything in my email archives nor on the mailing list.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Mary.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:
> >
> > Below is a the current agenda for the upcoming RTCWEB Interim (es= sentially, we have the morning sessions for the three days May 19, May 20, = May 21 2014). =C2=A0If you have not filled in your participation in the doo= dle poll, please do so at: http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn. That helps us plan= space and food as well as have badges ready.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Ted, Sean, Cullen
> >
> >
> > Interim Meeting RTCWEB May 2014
> > = http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn
> >
> > Day 1
> >
> > Admin Trivia (15m) - Chairs
> >
> > RTP + Media =C2=A0(75m) Magnus Westerlund and Harald Alvestrand > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-05
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-03
> >
> > JSEP (2.5h) Eric Rescorla
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06
> >
> >
> > Day 2
> >
> > Data Channel (4h) Randell Jesup
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-08
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-04
> >
> >
> > Day 3
> >
> > Security ( 2h ) Eric Rescorla
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09
> >
> > ALPN ( 15m ) Martin Thomson
> > draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn-00
> >
> > Consent Freshness ( 30m) Martin Thomson
> >
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02
> >
> >
> > Matters arising from webrtc meetings ( remaining time)
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > rtcweb mailing list
> > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> >
>
>


--f46d0438935728240b04f8f8e55d-- From nobody Fri May 9 08:25:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A34EF1A0019 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 08:25:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gdKObL-DPP9C for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 08:25:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x22a.google.com (mail-ie0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::22a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 439241A000D for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 08:25:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f170.google.com with SMTP id ar20so827300iec.1 for ; Fri, 09 May 2014 08:25:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=H29J3shpT/+vWoZn5AJ1WvTOfsQbRg2T/ZW9C9zXsgI=; b=nuDC9wzu06Jsj/3hki9tKC2OQ9V7Hpmi0L79S+YQFgIJlg5SlOgY12QlMvKLWS0LOR y+lROTgWfFJgXtdcj7D91JSzmBY67/oCNAtC4BTQIocq5OWOlPDFrVqgqcIuBMxrE3Zf WdbsVODduFcQsYBq6Jmm4e367OeVEljd/IfaISFG/TbHfAXb2Ab6WKe/W/7YAX2xyH6E OpQsr57brxWW0/thbgzl/ddgodKL6c+BO77g7taVCTkeFru5mbfcVXOH0zKK3s5EUEbp jI8jgdqqwfEl8AYOPVJSopRwakj9cpLp7wUKhXrZJzL8zBOmhQb6SKNWYN7Rw5h0zt2/ QXuQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.82.105 with SMTP id h9mr10334299igy.6.1399649140208; Fri, 09 May 2014 08:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.200.204 with HTTP; Fri, 9 May 2014 08:25:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <00B57139-F6A6-48B4-969D-A90EAF638062@iii.ca> <682CE2BB-F20A-4A87-A4FC-B686CD581743@iii.ca> Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 08:25:40 -0700 Message-ID: From: Ted Hardie To: Mary Barnes Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0111bb5ccffbe004f8f9356f Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/MlgI8tN-n06BskpUXlbSrDdDBtI Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 15:25:51 -0000 --089e0111bb5ccffbe004f8f9356f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 8:03 AM, Mary Barnes wro= te: > It certainly would have been nice to know when the meeting was being > organized that there were no plans for remote participation nor recording= . > That might have impacted people's decisions to not travel to the meeting. > At this stage, it's way too late to book travel - airfare is $1000-1300 = RT > from DFW to DCA. > > =E2=80=8BHi Mary, We will have some remote participation mechanism, but we're still trying to work out which one will best serve. Since none of the hosts are actually local to the venue, that's non trivial. =E2=80=8BBut at this point you can= assume it is one of Hangouts, the Jitsi trial service, or Webex. If you have a setup that can handle each of those, then you should be fine. =E2=80=8BRecording is a bit different, but I will continue to talk to the v= enue folks about that. Ted=E2=80=8B I fully understand the logistical issues and it is a hassle to go to > meeting locations early and spend 1/2-1 day setting up a room with A/V gu= ys > to ensure that you can get a reasonable experience for remote participant= s. > I personally think it's manageable for chairs if you can get an extra > microphone and ensure people speak into the microphone. I would imagine > it's not possible to have a meeting with 50 people without a microphone i= n > the room. > > > So, I guess, I may have gained 3 extra days in my schedule and I would > hope in this situation that there are meticulous notes with regards to > consensus points, issue resolution, action items, etc. And, of course, > there should be an understanding that while consensus may have been > obtained in the meeting room, it's not reasonable to expect that no one > else has input on the topic. > > Thanks, > Mary. > > > On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 10:10 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > >> >> Mary, I really did not meet to create a storm on this. >> >> I=E2=80=99m glad to do whatever we can but as you know, when we have a r= oom with >> 50 people in it, the problems is microphones, speakers, and echo >> cancelation. I don=E2=80=99t know what we will have in the way of mics, = a floor >> setup that lets people move to mics, or ECan that can deal with a room b= oth >> that large. >> >> I have attended two IETF remotely and the experience was pretty awful on >> both and that was in a dedicated location set up in advance with an AV >> support team. I think everyone that has ever remote attended an IETF >> meeting has seen that being remote, even when set up in the best of all >> possible ways, is much worse than being there. If you=E2=80=99ve got an= y >> preference on what you want us to use - I=E2=80=99m sure we can get what= ever of the >> major systems you want and 800 numbers and such on webex. I=E2=80=99m su= re we can >> have webex or hangouts if that is the preference. But I can=E2=80=99t pr= omise that >> remote people will hear everything and I can more or less promises that = I >> have never seen a set up where lots of remote people speaking worked out >> well. >> >> >> On May 8, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Mary Barnes >> wrote: >> >> > Honestly, I find this extremely disappointing. In the end, if your >> audio isn't good, then the meeting is not accessible to the community >> (myself included) that might not happen the $s to travel for the meeting= . >> When we had CLUE WG interim meetings, we worked very hard to ensure we = had >> quality audio for the recording and any remote participants. My >> understanding is that this the usual expectation for official IETF WG >> meetings. >> > >> > Regards, >> > Mary. >> > >> > >> > On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 12:50 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote= : >> > >> > As long as the room supports it, I imagine we will have a live stream >> from either WebEX or Hangouts - not sure which yet. For remote feedback >> back to the room there will be the usual xmpp for RTCWeb and IRC for >> WebRTC. I don=E2=80=99t know what the situation is in the room for mic= =E2=80=99s etc but we >> will have remote access as best we can. >> > >> > >> > On May 8, 2014, at 10:02 AM, Mary Barnes >> wrote: >> > >> > > Is there remote participation information available? I could not >> find anything in my email archives nor on the mailing list. >> > > >> > > Thanks, >> > > Mary. >> > > >> > > >> > > On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Cullen Jennings >> wrote: >> > > >> > > Below is a the current agenda for the upcoming RTCWEB Interim >> (essentially, we have the morning sessions for the three days May 19, Ma= y >> 20, May 21 2014). If you have not filled in your participation in the >> doodle poll, please do so at: http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn. That >> helps us plan space and food as well as have badges ready. >> > > >> > > Thanks >> > > >> > > Ted, Sean, Cullen >> > > >> > > >> > > Interim Meeting RTCWEB May 2014 >> > > http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn >> > > >> > > Day 1 >> > > >> > > Admin Trivia (15m) - Chairs >> > > >> > > RTP + Media (75m) Magnus Westerlund and Harald Alvestrand >> > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 >> > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-05 >> > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-03 >> > > >> > > JSEP (2.5h) Eric Rescorla >> > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06 >> > > >> > > >> > > Day 2 >> > > >> > > Data Channel (4h) Randell Jesup >> > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-08 >> > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-04 >> > > >> > > >> > > Day 3 >> > > >> > > Security ( 2h ) Eric Rescorla >> > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06 >> > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09 >> > > >> > > ALPN ( 15m ) Martin Thomson >> > > draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn-00 >> > > >> > > Consent Freshness ( 30m) Martin Thomson >> > > >> > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02 >> > > >> > > >> > > Matters arising from webrtc meetings ( remaining time) >> > > >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > rtcweb mailing list >> > > rtcweb@ietf.org >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> > > >> > >> > >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > --089e0111bb5ccffbe004f8f9356f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 8:03 AM,= Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com> wrote:
It certainly would have bee= n nice to know when the meeting was being organized that there were no plan= s for remote participation nor recording. That might have impacted people&#= 39;s decisions to not travel to the meeting. =C2=A0At this stage, it's = way too late to book travel - airfare is $1000-1300 RT from DFW to DCA.

=E2=80=8BHi Mary,

We will have some remo= te participation mechanism, but we're still trying to work out which on= e will best serve.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Since none of the hosts are actually local t= o the venue, that's non trivial.=C2=A0 =E2=80=8BBut at this point you c= an assume it is one of Hangouts, the Jitsi trial service, or Webex.=C2=A0 I= f you have a setup that can handle each of those, then you should be fine.<= br>

= =E2=80=8BRecording is a bit different, but I will continue to talk to the v= enue folks about that.

Ted=E2=80=8B


<= div dir=3D"ltr">
I fully understand the logistical issues and it is a hassle to go= to meeting locations early and spend 1/2-1 day setting up a room with A/V = guys to ensure that you can get a reasonable experience for remote particip= ants. =C2=A0I personally think it's manageable for chairs if you can ge= t an extra microphone and ensure people speak into the microphone. =C2=A0I = would imagine it's not possible to have a meeting with 50 people withou= t a microphone in the room.=C2=A0




=C2=A0
So, I guess,= I may have gained 3 extra days in my schedule and I would hope in this sit= uation that there are meticulous notes with regards to consensus points, is= sue resolution, action items, etc. =C2=A0And, of course, there should be an= understanding that while consensus may have been obtained in the meeting r= oom, it's not reasonable to expect that no one else has input on the to= pic. =C2=A0

Thanks,
Mary.=C2=A0


On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 10:10 PM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@ii= i.ca> wrote:

Mary, I really did not meet to create a storm on this.

I=E2=80=99m glad to do whatever we can but as you know, when we have a room= with 50 people in it, the problems is microphones, speakers, and echo canc= elation. I don=E2=80=99t know what we will have in the way of mics, a floor= setup that lets people move to mics, or ECan that can deal with a room bot= h that large.

I have attended two IETF remotely and the experience was pretty awful on bo= th and that was in a dedicated location set up in advance with an AV suppor= t team. I think everyone that has ever remote attended an IETF meeting has = seen that being remote, even when set up in the best of all possible ways, = is much worse than being there. =C2=A0If you=E2=80=99ve got any preference = on what you want us to use - I=E2=80=99m sure we can get whatever of the ma= jor systems you want and 800 numbers and such on webex. I=E2=80=99m sure we= can have webex or hangouts if that is the preference. But I can=E2=80=99t = promise that remote people will hear everything and I can more or less prom= ises that I have never seen a set up where lots of remote people speaking w= orked out well.


On May 8, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com> wrote:<= br>
> Honestly, I find this extremely disappointing. In the end, if your aud= io isn't good, then the meeting is not accessible to the community (mys= elf included) that might not happen the $s to travel for the meeting. =C2= =A0When we had CLUE WG interim meetings, we worked very hard to ensure we h= ad quality audio for the recording and any remote participants. =C2=A0My un= derstanding is that this the usual expectation for official IETF WG meeting= s.
>
> Regards,
> Mary.
>
>
> On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 12:50 PM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:
>
> As long as the room supports it, I imagine we will have a live stream = from either WebEX or Hangouts - not sure which yet. =C2=A0For remote feedba= ck back to the room there will be the usual xmpp for RTCWeb and IRC for Web= RTC. I don=E2=80=99t know what the situation is in the room for mic=E2=80= =99s etc but we will have remote access as best we can.
>
>
> On May 8, 2014, at 10:02 AM, Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com> w= rote:
>
> > Is there remote participation information available? =C2=A0I coul= d not find anything in my email archives nor on the mailing list.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Mary.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:
> >
> > Below is a the current agenda for the upcoming RTCWEB Interim (es= sentially, we have the morning sessions for the three days May 19, May 20, = May 21 2014). =C2=A0If you have not filled in your participation in the doo= dle poll, please do so at: http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn. That helps us plan= space and food as well as have badges ready.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Ted, Sean, Cullen
> >
> >
> > Interim Meeting RTCWEB May 2014
> > = http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn
> >
> > Day 1
> >
> > Admin Trivia (15m) - Chairs
> >
> > RTP + Media =C2=A0(75m) Magnus Westerlund and Harald Alvestrand > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-05
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-03
> >
> > JSEP (2.5h) Eric Rescorla
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06
> >
> >
> > Day 2
> >
> > Data Channel (4h) Randell Jesup
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-08
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-04
> >
> >
> > Day 3
> >
> > Security ( 2h ) Eric Rescorla
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09
> >
> > ALPN ( 15m ) Martin Thomson
> > draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn-00
> >
> > Consent Freshness ( 30m) Martin Thomson
> >
> > draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02
> >
> >
> > Matters arising from webrtc meetings ( remaining time)
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > rtcweb mailing list
> > rtcweb@ietf.= org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> >
>
>



_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


--089e0111bb5ccffbe004f8f9356f-- From nobody Fri May 9 11:36:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A8461A0053 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 11:36:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tEPbarDZ7iAy for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 11:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout-07.mxes.net (mxout-07.mxes.net [216.86.168.182]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9CF51A00A3 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 11:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.4.110] (unknown [128.107.239.233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 25C2F22E1FA; Fri, 9 May 2014 14:36:02 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Cullen Jennings In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 12:38:37 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <00B57139-F6A6-48B4-969D-A90EAF638062@iii.ca> <682CE2BB-F20A-4A87-A4FC-B686CD581743@iii.ca> To: Mary Barnes X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/spSRzQ051XKe6MrMbkUKGPZKYXk Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 18:36:16 -0000 On May 9, 2014, at 9:03 AM, Mary Barnes = wrote: > It certainly would have been nice to know when the meeting was being = organized that there were no plans for remote participation nor = recording.=20 Mary that is really warping what I said out of context. We will do the = best that we can - and like most IETF interim meetings, including the = CLUE ones, that will almost certainly be less than ideal.=20 From nobody Fri May 9 11:40:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3BD41A006E for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 11:40:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8sMcVoGibMUL for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 11:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x22d.google.com (mail-we0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::22d]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 142001A0053 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 11:40:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f173.google.com with SMTP id u57so4304330wes.18 for ; Fri, 09 May 2014 11:40:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=rBv1QTW9xmJfywCgi07KLeMXje8xoocDrLGRin252kY=; b=XrTYjUqAsQSjDsOryO2EdcW6SH8EJYGByZxNHv9tbWVcAJTwkvZGFIFSTCT+kJ4mmD DOncwcFWYtE/JKdXXYF+xz36KLN0ccdMH8XD64Yed2CaKpupktUxmTrIxHUZo8oWoDzE kAd+MP14PY8WxcRuMgv/KyBlesKJ4QTus0GxM/dBJRltACiFnPDxkcY8Vmx7paVmkBEC IVJ6cazw8SCIgThnkEXBdJDaWvQX8rxxPipFY46xsFTb8RkQfbJ6bADJneI0Rz5l3fjm ZL0bqIHmoTEGV1wwqKivUMXtEGfVpy1coma9L7jaZh4KLQdV3gaSiQTK6x7sKUsGqDg9 dcgw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.81.36 with SMTP id w4mr4462690wix.36.1399660807506; Fri, 09 May 2014 11:40:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.93.68 with HTTP; Fri, 9 May 2014 11:40:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <00B57139-F6A6-48B4-969D-A90EAF638062@iii.ca> <682CE2BB-F20A-4A87-A4FC-B686CD581743@iii.ca> Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 13:40:07 -0500 Message-ID: From: Mary Barnes To: Cullen Jennings Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec550ac243cd06704f8fbed55 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/DPLkN9sWS6Pb0VVBHwku0QKCWsE Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 18:40:14 -0000 --bcaec550ac243cd06704f8fbed55 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Well, the answer to my question initially was that the remote participation was going to depend upon who would be attending, so it wasn't clear to me there was any original intent to support remote participation. I've chatted with Ted and I'm satisfied that you guys will do the best you can based upon the location where you are meeting. Thanks, Mary. On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 1:38 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > > On May 9, 2014, at 9:03 AM, Mary Barnes > wrote: > > > It certainly would have been nice to know when the meeting was being > organized that there were no plans for remote participation nor recording. > > Mary that is really warping what I said out of context. We will do the > best that we can - and like most IETF interim meetings, including the CLUE > ones, that will almost certainly be less than ideal. > > --bcaec550ac243cd06704f8fbed55 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, the answer to my question initially was that the rem= ote participation was going to depend upon who would be attending, so it wa= sn't clear to me there was any original intent to support remote partic= ipation. =C2=A0I've chatted with Ted and I'm satisfied that you guy= s will do the best you can based upon the location where you are meeting.
Thanks,
Mary.=C2=A0


On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 1:38 PM, = Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:

On May 9, 2014, at 9:03 AM, Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com> wrote:

> It certainly would have been nice to know when the meeting was being o= rganized that there were no plans for remote participation nor recording.
Mary that is really warping what I said out of context. =C2=A0We will= do the best that we can - and like most IETF interim meetings, including t= he CLUE ones, that will almost certainly be less than ideal.


--bcaec550ac243cd06704f8fbed55-- From nobody Fri May 9 11:43:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0D611A01F3 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 11:43:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3J-ZEnwzrJX2 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 11:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout-08.mxes.net (mxout-08.mxes.net [216.86.168.183]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4F241A0306 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 11:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.4.110] (unknown [128.107.239.235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6C95450A84; Fri, 9 May 2014 14:42:31 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Cullen Jennings In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 12:45:07 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4D09A5E9-01BA-49B8-9CD6-09C93C561E59@iii.ca> References: <00B57139-F6A6-48B4-969D-A90EAF638062@iii.ca> <682CE2BB-F20A-4A87-A4FC-B686CD581743@iii.ca> To: Mary Barnes X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/Egn9KJxDo5eOKgb_xJ1wPM7WPdY Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 18:43:05 -0000 ok, glad to see it is sorted out and sorry if we caused confusion. I = think Teds mail was saying =93how=94 not =93if=94 we would do remote was = depended on number of people. We always done our best to make remote = work.=20 On May 9, 2014, at 12:40 PM, Mary Barnes = wrote: > Well, the answer to my question initially was that the remote = participation was going to depend upon who would be attending, so it = wasn't clear to me there was any original intent to support remote = participation. I've chatted with Ted and I'm satisfied that you guys = will do the best you can based upon the location where you are meeting. >=20 > Thanks, > Mary.=20 >=20 >=20 > On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 1:38 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote: >=20 > On May 9, 2014, at 9:03 AM, Mary Barnes = wrote: >=20 > > It certainly would have been nice to know when the meeting was being = organized that there were no plans for remote participation nor = recording. >=20 > Mary that is really warping what I said out of context. We will do = the best that we can - and like most IETF interim meetings, including = the CLUE ones, that will almost certainly be less than ideal. >=20 >=20 From nobody Fri May 9 14:56:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B6C21A00EC for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 14:56:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cm_9n13iNY-4 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 14:56:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B71B31A00BF for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 14:56:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.29] (cpe-173-172-146-58.tx.res.rr.com [173.172.146.58]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.14.8/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s49LuCar040178 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 16:56:14 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-173-172-146-58.tx.res.rr.com [173.172.146.58] claimed to be [10.0.1.29] From: Ben Campbell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 421365371.975828-66527c9195781004e1aa67413fe3e205 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 16:56:12 -0500 To: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/KizqxTJetVr6QLC_xpCFjGQuON8 Subject: [rtcweb] WGLC review of draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 21:56:21 -0000 Hi, This draft seems well constructed. I don't have much in the way of = technical comments, but do have a few extremely minor/editorial = comments: Thanks! /Ben ---------------------- -- 4.1, 2nd to last bullet: Can there be a reference for " RTCP timer reconsideration " -- 4.3, last paragraph: "RTP receivers MUST follow the recommendations = in Section 4.3 of [RFC7160] in order to support ..." I assume that you mean that receivers MUST support the recommendations = because they need to support multiple clock rates. A strained = interpretation could assume that, if they want to support multiple clock = rates, they MUST support..." -- 4.5, first paragraph: " ... support for multiplexing RTP data packets = and RTCP control packets on a single transport-layer flow for each RTP = session is REQUIRED, provided it is negotiated in the signalling channel = ..." I assume the intent is that support...is REQUIRED, but only _used_ if = negotiated? As written, it seems to say _support_ is both REQUIRED and = negotiated.=20 (A similar construction occurs in 4.6, 2nd paragraph) -- 5.2.2, last paragraph: If I understand 6904 correctly, you signal the use of encryption for = each header you want to encrypt, right? If so, then how is "explicitly = disabled through ... signalling" different than "not signalled"? If it's = the same thing, then this comes perilously close saying "... RECOMMENDED = that the encryption be used ... unless you don't want to."=20 (I have no objection to the "explicitly disabled through the API" ) -- Figures 1 and 2: Any chance of centering these? -- 12.1.3: How does (or will) DART fit in here? Seems like it might have something = to say, but I'm not sure how the timing relates. From nobody Fri May 9 16:36:54 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE9DF1A00F6 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 16:36:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p5ZynRkK9yP0 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 16:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x231.google.com (mail-wi0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::231]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C0EC1A010C for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 16:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f177.google.com with SMTP id f8so2058981wiw.16 for ; Fri, 09 May 2014 16:36:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=NOUnn51q9C7kAi9wAO6fv+kC2BFlOwgSsl4voKSUFG4=; b=knP0yADB6RfrrWmRWVKzk/zyv0zsY3JUtw4pdB70sq06Htd9ZVkzBBrSmdmKzpxkO7 yP2flYnhj5X4TpOAudughpzoOoyGglNhHbuLs0COlS01kwySHs4rNcHkjJX6UG2BXhL6 wupYsFCdOsznIohWhwobWzcZ9QvdI2BBHKFC8brYDcpci4TLnWZs2A+Oweyl4gMqiFbd TkH4IIcHQ+EN1S24rNAiwgATtvUC5zuh3gS8YEzJpTtYT3XqD3r04GZADTC/3fsZiJmJ tP1Tnoj389yK9jokgNNYmIHkx/GRjVsztHaV1bOrFFvHIQcJ55QhAbXxoInRuqHQBQgK 2YfQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.60.4 with SMTP id d4mr10638323wjr.28.1399678600096; Fri, 09 May 2014 16:36:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.180.13.73 with HTTP; Fri, 9 May 2014 16:36:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2FAF1D94-DBAB-43EB-97CF-7ACA2213A7B5@iii.ca> References: <2FAF1D94-DBAB-43EB-97CF-7ACA2213A7B5@iii.ca> Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 16:36:40 -0700 Message-ID: From: Suhas Nandakumar To: Cullen Jennings Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bacb40ec2302004f900115f Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/aZsWeZTRb_YOfSDZ0-eoiEyVq7w Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 23:36:50 -0000 --047d7bacb40ec2302004f900115f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Magnus and all for this work. I liked the way the document has turned out to be. Apologies for the last minute response, I am been wanting to read this spec and finally got some time late in this week. I have listed down few points that reflect my notes when i read the document from a RTP implementor and WebRTC developer perspectives. *Comments* 2. Handling of documents from AVTCore related to MultiStream, MultiStreamOptimization, MultiMediaRTPSession that are normatively referenced. It was not clear if all these should be normatively referenced. 3. RTP Taxonomy usage. This comment is applicable to the RTP documents referred by this document which dont follow the Taxonomy. This caused lot of concept mapping in my mind to go between the different usages to understand the implications. I would strongly recommend alignment with the Taxonomy for these dependent documents and I volunteer to do some of it If needed. 4. trr-int of 4 seconds has be recommended in couples of places. But i dont see a reference to the choice of 4 seconds and the reason why it was chosen that way. I am not sure if we want to specify this detail in this document. 5. Section 4.1 says, - Support for multiple end-points in a single RTP session, and for scaling the RTCP transmission interval according to the number of participants in the session; support for randomised RTCP transmission intervals to avoid synchronisation of RTCP reports; support for RTCP tim= er reconsideration. All these MUST requirements need references. If some of these belong to RFC3550, then we need to say that. 6. Section 4.2 Not sure if the side note for trr-int fits in this section 7. Section 4.3 Para 2 - I felt this Para was getting too busy in laying out the cases of PT Reuse combinations. Can we break it , if possible ? - We can probably delete the note referring to BUNDLE spec since we refer to it again in Section 4.4 where it contextually makes more sense. 8. Section 4.3 Para 3 An end-point that has signalled support for multiple RTP payload formats SHOULD be able to accept data in any of those payload formats at any time, unless it has previously signalled limitations on its decoding capability. Shouldn't the SHOULD be MUST above. If not, I think we fail interoperabilit= y 9.Nit .. Section 4.4 Para 3 says Further discussion about the suitability of different RTP session structures and multiplexing methods to different scenarios are suitable can be found in [I-D.ietf-avtcore-multiplex-guidelines] . How about rewording it to, Further discussion about the suitability of different RTP session structures and multiplexing methods to different scenarios can be found in [I-D.ietf-avtcore-multiplex-guidelines] . 10. Section 5.1 ( Topology Recommendations) - Nit .. Adding reference to RTCPeerConnections might be useful - I dont think this document should make recommendations against applicability of a particular topology for a given context. Specifically, the pointers to carrying out congestion control mechanisms are still under development and denying a topology based on it might not be a good idea. I would prefer this section referring to the Topo document as an informative reference and implications of each topology under various scenarios should be moved in there, if needed. 11. Section 5.1.2 Should we add the requirement for the WebRTC end-point sending PLI messages? 12. Section 10 - Nit - Reference to ICE is needed 13. Section 11 Para 3 Not sure, if this is needed altogether. Probably saying a given Media Source might end up in several RTP Packet Streams with their associated SSRC following WebRTC API mechanisms defined in 14. Section 11 says Note: this doesn't result in a tracking issue, since the creation of matching CNAMEs depends on existing tracking. We need bit more context here explaining the tracking or remove it altogether 15. Section 8 There is no requirement that the data contained in such reports be used, or exposed to the Javascript application, however. Do we need this sentence ? 16. Section 11 has, The above will currently force a WebRTC end-point that receives an MediaStreamTrack on one RTCPeerConnection and adds it as an outgoing on any RTCPeerConnection to perform resynchronisation of the stream. This, as the sending party needs to change the CNAME, which implies that it has to use a locally available system clock as timebase for the synchronisation. Thus, the relative relation between the timebase of the incoming stream and the system sending out needs to defined. This relation also needs monitoring for clock drift and likely adjustments of the synchronisation. The sending entity is also responsible for congestion control for its the sent streams. In cases of packet loss the loss of incoming data also needs to be handled. This leads to the observation that the method that is least likely to cause issues or interruptions in the outgoing source packet stream is a model of full decoding, including repair etc followed by encoding of the media again into the outgoing packet stream. Optimisations of this method is clearly possible and implementation specific. Probably,I am missing the context here, but I don't see the need for this para in this document since it is very application specific 17 Section 12 - Not sure if we really need the topology details in here. But I am fine going with it one way or the other. 18. Section 12.1.3 Should this be moved out as a separate section, since, it is more than just implementation guidelines 19. SSRC Collision It is not clear what implementation guidelines that is being provided. Cheers Suhas On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 7:41 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > > Overall the document looks in excellent shape. I do have a bunch of > comments but they are all pretty easy to deal with. > > Page 5 > I think that draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream-optimisation should be > MAY not a MUST. We don=E2=80=99t loose significant interoperability by no= t having > it a MUST. > > Page > Sending correct sync information should be MUST not SHOULD. We can=E2=80= =99t make > lip sync work without this and I think the flows I have seen already send > it. Note people don=E2=80=99t have to deal with correctly implementing li= p sync on > the receiving end, they just have to send enough information to make it > possible that receivers that want to can. > > Has the text "support for RTCP timer reconsideration." but I don=E2=80=99= t know > what this means or how to implement it - suspect we just need a ref or bi= t > more text. > > I=E2=80=99d refer to see "reduced minimum RTCP reporting interval" be a M= UST and I > could live with MAY but SHOULD is just lame for this. > > > Page 8 > > It has the text > > An end-point that has signalled support for multiple RTP payload formats > SHOULD be able to accept data in any of those payload formats at any time= , > unless it has previously signalled limitations on its decoding capability= . > > I think that has to be a MUST not a SHOULD or else this will not work. > > Page 18 > > This has RTX (RFC4588) and MUST. RTX has turned out to be close to useles= s > in interactive communications systems because the RTT is just too high to > make this viable. You need to set your jitter buffer to be larger than th= e > RTT for this work and I am aware of any significant internet collaboratio= ns > system that sets the jitter buffer size that high. I think this should be > MAY not MUST but that said, I can easily live with MUST, it just seems > useless at a time where we are trying to reduce the complexity of the > system. > > > Page 19 > > It says FEC is not required. I=E2=80=99m OK with this but my notes have i= t as the > WG previously agreed on this being required. It might be worth putting th= is > up on a slide in the May meeting and checking the WG is good with no FEC. > Perhaps my notes are all wrong - I did not try and go back throughout > minutes. It=E2=80=99s possible the WG decided different things and differ= ent times. > > > Page 20 > > Has the text > > signalled bandwidth limits SHOULD be used to limit traffic > > I might be reading this the wrong way but given the weak congestion > control in general, I feel pretty strongly that the browser can=E2=80=99t= ignore > signaled bandwidth limits and this needs to say something more like the > "MUST not exceed signaled bandwidth" > > > Page 20-22, > > Section 7.2 - I felt like this section was supposed to convince me it was > all OK but the more I read it the more confused I was. What does one do i= f > sending video on says a 768 kbps link? Send every 5 frames? > > I think part of the confusion stemmed from the implication that to do goo= d > congestion control, you needed a report once ever say RTT but in RTP we > could not do that so we would fall back to a far less frequent reporting = of > once ever frame. But ever frame is less than the RTT in most internet cas= e > so I was just confused by the whole section. > > I don=E2=80=99t think this section is going to help implementors much as = it is - > perhaps it could just be refactored a bit to help implementers understand > how often to send RTCP and why. > > > Page 24 > > Has > > All WebRTC implementations MUST be prepared to receive RTP XR report > packets, whether or not they were signaled. > > I disagree with this - we are in a non multicast environment with RTP > inside DTLS/SRTP. One should not be getting reports for extensions that > were not negotiated. > > Similarly on page 25 the text has > > The RTP extensions to be used SHOULD be agreed upon, > > I think this needs to be a MUST. > > > > Page 27 > > I think it would be best to just remove the line > > This document [I-D.ietf-mmusic-msid] also defines, in section 4.1, how t= o > map unknown source packet stream SSRCs to MediaStreamTracks and > MediaStreams. > > as that is not key to this spec. > > > Page 36 - 37 > > Section 12.2.2. > > So if I read this right, it says you MUST resolve SSRC collisions but RFC > 5576 has no way to do that. What are implementors supposed to do ? > > Even ignoring 5576 - it=E2=80=99s just not clear to me how one detects an= d > resolves SSRC collisions. > > > > Cullen with my individual contributor hat on. > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --047d7bacb40ec2302004f900115f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Magnus and all for this work. I liked the way the d= ocument has turned out to be.

Apologies for the last min= ute response, I am been wanting =C2=A0to read this spec and finally got som= e time late in this week.

I have listed down few points that reflect my not= es when i read the document from a RTP implementor and WebRTC developer per= spectives.

Comments


2. Handling of documents from AVTCore related= to MultiStream, MultiStreamOptimization, MultiMediaRTPSession that are nor= matively referenced. It was not clear if all these should be normatively re= ferenced.=C2=A0

3. RTP Taxonomy usage. This comment is applicable to th= e RTP documents referred by this document which dont follow the Taxonomy. T= his caused lot of concept mapping in my mind to go between the different us= ages to understand the implications. I would strongly recommend alignment w= ith the Taxonomy for these dependent documents and I volunteer to do some o= f it If needed.

4. trr-int of 4 seconds has be recommended in couples o= f places. But i dont see a reference to the choice of 4 seconds and the rea= son why it was chosen that way. I am not sure if we want to specify this de= tail in this document.

5. Section 4.1 says,
  • Support for multiple end= -points in a single RTP session, and for scaling the RTCP transmission inte= rval according to the number of participants in the session; support for ra= ndomised RTCP transmission intervals to avoid synchronisation of RTCP repor= ts; support for RTCP timer reconsideration.
All these MUST requirements need references. If some of these bel= ong to RFC3550, then we need to say that.=C2=A0

6.= Section 4.2
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Not sure if the side note for tr= r-int fits in this section

7. Section 4.3 Para 2
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - = I felt this Para was getting too busy in laying out the cases of PT Reuse c= ombinations. Can we break it , if possible ?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= - We can probably delete the note referring to BUNDLE spec since we refer = to it again in Section 4.4 where it contextually makes more sense.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
8. Section 4.3 Para 3
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0An end-point that has signa= lled support for multiple RTP payload formats SHOULD be able to accept data= in any of those payload formats at any time, unless it has previously sign= alled limitations on its decoding capability.

Shouldn't the SHOULD be MUST above. If not, I think= we fail interoperability

9.Nit .. =C2=A0Section 4= .4 Para 3 says
Further discuss= ion about the suitability of different RTP session structures and multiplex= ing methods to different scenarios are suitable can be found in=C2=A0[I-D.= ietf-avtcore-multiplex-guidelines].<= /span>

How about rewording it to,
Further discussion about the suitab= ility of different RTP session structures and multiplexing methods to diffe= rent scenarios can be found in=C2=A0[I-D.ietf-avtcore-multiplex-guidelines= ].=


10. =C2=A0Section 5.1 ( Topology Recommendations)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Nit .. Adding reference to RTCPeerConnections = might be useful
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- I dont think this do= cument should make recommendations against applicability of a particular to= pology for a given context. Specifically, the pointers to carrying out cong= estion control mechanisms are still under development and denying a topolog= y based on it might not be a good idea. I would prefer this section referri= ng to the Topo document as an informative reference and implications of eac= h topology under various scenarios should be moved in there, if needed.

11. Section 5.1.2=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = Should we add the requirement for the WebRTC end-point sending PLI messages= ?

12. Section 10
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- N= it - Reference to ICE is needed

13. Section 11 Para 3
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0Not sure, if this is needed altogether. Probably saying a given Media= Source might end up in several RTP Packet Streams =C2=A0with their associa= ted SSRC following WebRTC API mechanisms defined in <ref>

=C2=A014. Section 11 says
=C2=A0Note: this doesn't result in a tracking issue, = since the creation of matching CNAMEs depends on existing tracking.<= /div>
=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0 We need bit more context here explaining= the tracking or remove it altogether

15. Sec= tion 8
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0There is no requirement that the data contained in such reports be used,= or exposed to the Javascript application, however.
=C2=A0 Do we need this sentence ?

16. Section 11 has,
The above will currently force a WebRTC end-point that receives an = MediaStreamTrack on one RTCPeerConnection and adds it as an outgoing on any= RTCPeerConnection to perform resynchronisation of the stream. This, as the= sending party needs to change the CNAME, which implies that it has to use = a locally available system clock as timebase for the synchronisation. Thus,= the relative relation between the timebase of the incoming stream and the = system sending out needs to defined. This relation also needs monitoring fo= r clock drift and likely adjustments of the synchronisation. The sending en= tity is also responsible for congestion control for its the sent streams. I= n cases of packet loss the loss of incoming data also needs to be handled. = This leads to the observation that the method that is least likely to cause= issues or interruptions in the outgoing source packet stream is a model of= full decoding, including repair etc followed by encoding of the media agai= n into the outgoing packet stream. Optimisations of this method is clearly = possible and implementation specific.

Probably,I am missing the context here, but I don't= see the need for this para in this document since it is very application s= pecific

17 Section 12
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - No= t sure if we really need the topology details in here. But I am fine going = with it one way or the other.

18. Section 12.1.3
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Should= this be moved out as a separate section, since, it is more than just imple= mentation guidelines

19. SSRC Collision
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It is not clear what implementation guidelines that is = being provided. =C2=A0



<= /span>


Cheers
Suhas



=C2=A0


On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 7:41 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii= .ca> wrote:

Overall the document looks in excellent shape. I do have a bunch of comment= s but they are all pretty easy to deal with.

Page 5
I think that draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream-optimisation should be MAY= not a MUST. We don=E2=80=99t loose significant interoperability by not hav= ing it a MUST.

Page
Sending correct sync information should be MUST not SHOULD. We can=E2=80=99= t make lip sync work without this and I think the flows I have seen already= send it. Note people don=E2=80=99t have to deal with correctly implementin= g lip sync on the receiving end, they just have to send enough information = to make it possible that receivers that want to can.

Has the text "support for RTCP timer reconsideration." but I don= =E2=80=99t know what this means or how to implement it - suspect we just ne= ed a ref or bit more text.

I=E2=80=99d refer to see "reduced minimum RTCP reporting interval"= ; be a MUST and I could live with MAY but SHOULD is just lame for this.


Page 8

It has the text

An end-point that has signalled support for multiple RTP payload formats SH= OULD be able to accept data in any of those payload formats at any time, un= less it has previously signalled limitations on its decoding capability.
I think that has to be a MUST not a SHOULD or else this will not work.

Page 18

This has RTX (RFC4588) and MUST. RTX has turned out to be close to useless = in interactive communications systems because the RTT is just too high to m= ake this viable. You need to set your jitter buffer to be larger than the R= TT for this work and I am aware of any significant internet collaborations = system that sets the jitter buffer size that high. I think this should be M= AY not MUST but that said, I can easily live with MUST, it just seems usele= ss at a time where we are trying to reduce the complexity of the system.

Page 19

It says FEC is not required. I=E2=80=99m OK with this but my notes have it = as the WG previously agreed on this being required. It might be worth putti= ng this up on a slide in the May meeting and checking the WG is good with n= o FEC. Perhaps my notes are all wrong - I did not try and go back throughou= t minutes. It=E2=80=99s possible the WG decided different things and differ= ent times.


Page 20

Has the text

=C2=A0 signalled bandwidth limits SHOULD be used to limit traffic

I might be reading this the wrong way but given the weak congestion control= in general, I feel pretty strongly that the browser can=E2=80=99t ignore s= ignaled bandwidth limits and this needs to say something more like the &quo= t;MUST not exceed signaled bandwidth"


Page 20-22,

Section 7.2 - I felt like this section was supposed to convince me it was a= ll OK but the more I read it the more confused I was. What does one do if s= ending video on says a 768 kbps link? Send every 5 frames?

I think part of the confusion stemmed from the implication that to do good = congestion control, you needed a report once ever say RTT but in RTP we cou= ld not do that so we would fall back to a far less frequent reporting of on= ce ever frame. But ever frame is less than the RTT in most internet case so= I was just confused by the whole section.

I don=E2=80=99t think this section is going to help implementors much as it= is - perhaps it could just be refactored a bit to help implementers unders= tand how often to send RTCP and why.


Page 24

Has

All WebRTC implementations MUST be prepared to receive RTP XR report packet= s, whether or not they were signaled.

I disagree with this - we are in a non multicast environment with RTP insid= e DTLS/SRTP. One should not be getting reports for extensions that were not= negotiated.

Similarly on page 25 the text has

The RTP extensions to be used SHOULD be agreed upon,

I think this needs to be a MUST.



Page 27

I think it would be best to just remove the line

=C2=A0This document [I-D.ietf-mmusic-msid] also defines, in section 4.1, ho= w to map unknown source packet stream SSRCs to MediaStreamTracks and MediaS= treams.

as that is not key to this spec.


Page 36 - 37

Section 12.2.2.

So if I read this right, it says you MUST resolve SSRC collisions but RFC 5= 576 has no way to do that. What are implementors supposed to do ?

Even ignoring 5576 - it=E2=80=99s just not clear to me how one detects and = resolves SSRC collisions.



Cullen with my individual contributor hat on.


_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

--047d7bacb40ec2302004f900115f-- From nobody Fri May 9 16:47:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C70D21A010D for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 16:47:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tIU9uF3KaKkP for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 16:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x232.google.com (mail-wg0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B82E1A010C for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 16:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f50.google.com with SMTP id x12so4518196wgg.33 for ; Fri, 09 May 2014 16:47:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=Aw8rj3Ix3TNUfH1k+jhkQ6oh1Tli3UBm7Co33wQaCHc=; b=liLTgILBOoi2FxNXfoG4xSwBXNu/a99OfWFCvM4AeYwXvaouvmCUoBVmutgromWBlB K8R8077He67VvTRvTw9LrXDxf8/Pz85Ge0q1aDjCD6vrbVlyzPdcJ6pk/t/4lAa1YwEZ 25pWWQ9k5MAJVMF+ZUnA2b/FF2RKyWCx4OQNt8PudZQwmB1mqf+8iV4jwPCGxP4VFE2y 6qy2SoOM8v3gGGFGapDmsfecaGVTDi+7pL//YAj02jI6sYwgAb7DTvBHc2RZLsHbvWuO CgGlgQcy6zUPuw8XdcWfTwQTMh+vcqUspRPjW4s6Sv65kfi8bCIh38TE8piPktCKH+fG taWQ== X-Received: by 10.180.39.175 with SMTP id q15mr5370651wik.4.1399679259990; Fri, 09 May 2014 16:47:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.102.130 with HTTP; Fri, 9 May 2014 16:47:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2FAF1D94-DBAB-43EB-97CF-7ACA2213A7B5@iii.ca> References: <2FAF1D94-DBAB-43EB-97CF-7ACA2213A7B5@iii.ca> From: Bernard Aboba Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 16:47:19 -0700 Message-ID: To: Cullen Jennings Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2283a17617704f900394e Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/Zq11AozZSAhMswTnAoFqCjmGHWo Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 23:47:50 -0000 --001a11c2283a17617704f900394e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cullen said: "This has RTX (RFC4588) and MUST. RTX has turned out to be close to useless in interactive communications systems because the RTT is just too high to make this viable. " [BA] Where temporal scaling is used, RTX can be useful in protecting the base layer. So it's not universally useless. I do agree that MUST is too strict, though. "It says FEC is not required. I=E2=80=99m OK with this but my notes have it= as the WG previously agreed on this being required. " [BA] Yeah, I wondered about that, too. On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 7:41 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > > Overall the document looks in excellent shape. I do have a bunch of > comments but they are all pretty easy to deal with. > > Page 5 > I think that draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream-optimisation should be > MAY not a MUST. We don=E2=80=99t loose significant interoperability by no= t having > it a MUST. > > Page > Sending correct sync information should be MUST not SHOULD. We can=E2=80= =99t make > lip sync work without this and I think the flows I have seen already send > it. Note people don=E2=80=99t have to deal with correctly implementing li= p sync on > the receiving end, they just have to send enough information to make it > possible that receivers that want to can. > > Has the text "support for RTCP timer reconsideration." but I don=E2=80=99= t know > what this means or how to implement it - suspect we just need a ref or bi= t > more text. > > I=E2=80=99d refer to see "reduced minimum RTCP reporting interval" be a M= UST and I > could live with MAY but SHOULD is just lame for this. > > > Page 8 > > It has the text > > An end-point that has signalled support for multiple RTP payload formats > SHOULD be able to accept data in any of those payload formats at any time= , > unless it has previously signalled limitations on its decoding capability= . > > I think that has to be a MUST not a SHOULD or else this will not work. > > Page 18 > > This has RTX (RFC4588) and MUST. RTX has turned out to be close to useles= s > in interactive communications systems because the RTT is just too high to > make this viable. You need to set your jitter buffer to be larger than th= e > RTT for this work and I am aware of any significant internet collaboratio= ns > system that sets the jitter buffer size that high. I think this should be > MAY not MUST but that said, I can easily live with MUST, it just seems > useless at a time where we are trying to reduce the complexity of the > system. > > > Page 19 > > It says FEC is not required. I=E2=80=99m OK with this but my notes have i= t as the > WG previously agreed on this being required. It might be worth putting th= is > up on a slide in the May meeting and checking the WG is good with no FEC. > Perhaps my notes are all wrong - I did not try and go back throughout > minutes. It=E2=80=99s possible the WG decided different things and differ= ent times. > > > Page 20 > > Has the text > > signalled bandwidth limits SHOULD be used to limit traffic > > I might be reading this the wrong way but given the weak congestion > control in general, I feel pretty strongly that the browser can=E2=80=99t= ignore > signaled bandwidth limits and this needs to say something more like the > "MUST not exceed signaled bandwidth" > > > Page 20-22, > > Section 7.2 - I felt like this section was supposed to convince me it was > all OK but the more I read it the more confused I was. What does one do i= f > sending video on says a 768 kbps link? Send every 5 frames? > > I think part of the confusion stemmed from the implication that to do goo= d > congestion control, you needed a report once ever say RTT but in RTP we > could not do that so we would fall back to a far less frequent reporting = of > once ever frame. But ever frame is less than the RTT in most internet cas= e > so I was just confused by the whole section. > > I don=E2=80=99t think this section is going to help implementors much as = it is - > perhaps it could just be refactored a bit to help implementers understand > how often to send RTCP and why. > > > Page 24 > > Has > > All WebRTC implementations MUST be prepared to receive RTP XR report > packets, whether or not they were signaled. > > I disagree with this - we are in a non multicast environment with RTP > inside DTLS/SRTP. One should not be getting reports for extensions that > were not negotiated. > > Similarly on page 25 the text has > > The RTP extensions to be used SHOULD be agreed upon, > > I think this needs to be a MUST. > > > > Page 27 > > I think it would be best to just remove the line > > This document [I-D.ietf-mmusic-msid] also defines, in section 4.1, how t= o > map unknown source packet stream SSRCs to MediaStreamTracks and > MediaStreams. > > as that is not key to this spec. > > > Page 36 - 37 > > Section 12.2.2. > > So if I read this right, it says you MUST resolve SSRC collisions but RFC > 5576 has no way to do that. What are implementors supposed to do ? > > Even ignoring 5576 - it=E2=80=99s just not clear to me how one detects an= d > resolves SSRC collisions. > > > > Cullen with my individual contributor hat on. > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --001a11c2283a17617704f900394e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Cullen said:

"This has= RTX (RFC4588) and MUST. RTX has turned out to be close to useless in inter= active communications systems because the RTT is just too high to make this= viable. "

[BA] Where temporal scaling is used, RTX can be useful = in protecting the base layer.=C2=A0 So it's not universally useless.=C2= =A0 I do agree that MUST is too strict, though.

&= quot;It says FEC is not required. I=E2=80=99m OK with this but my notes hav= e it as the WG previously agreed on this being required. "

[BA] Yeah, I wondered about that, too.=C2=A0


On Fri, May= 9, 2014 at 7:41 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:

Overall the document looks in excellent shape. I do have a bunch of comment= s but they are all pretty easy to deal with.

Page 5
I think that draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream-optimisation should be MAY= not a MUST. We don=E2=80=99t loose significant interoperability by not hav= ing it a MUST.

Page
Sending correct sync information should be MUST not SHOULD. We can=E2=80=99= t make lip sync work without this and I think the flows I have seen already= send it. Note people don=E2=80=99t have to deal with correctly implementin= g lip sync on the receiving end, they just have to send enough information = to make it possible that receivers that want to can.

Has the text "support for RTCP timer reconsideration." but I don= =E2=80=99t know what this means or how to implement it - suspect we just ne= ed a ref or bit more text.

I=E2=80=99d refer to see "reduced minimum RTCP reporting interval"= ; be a MUST and I could live with MAY but SHOULD is just lame for this.


Page 8

It has the text

An end-point that has signalled support for multiple RTP payload formats SH= OULD be able to accept data in any of those payload formats at any time, un= less it has previously signalled limitations on its decoding capability.
I think that has to be a MUST not a SHOULD or else this will not work.

Page 18

This has RTX (RFC4588) and MUST. RTX has turned out to be close to useless = in interactive communications systems because the RTT is just too high to m= ake this viable. You need to set your jitter buffer to be larger than the R= TT for this work and I am aware of any significant internet collaborations = system that sets the jitter buffer size that high. I think this should be M= AY not MUST but that said, I can easily live with MUST, it just seems usele= ss at a time where we are trying to reduce the complexity of the system.

Page 19

It says FEC is not required. I=E2=80=99m OK with this but my notes have it = as the WG previously agreed on this being required. It might be worth putti= ng this up on a slide in the May meeting and checking the WG is good with n= o FEC. Perhaps my notes are all wrong - I did not try and go back throughou= t minutes. It=E2=80=99s possible the WG decided different things and differ= ent times.


Page 20

Has the text

=C2=A0 signalled bandwidth limits SHOULD be used to limit traffic

I might be reading this the wrong way but given the weak congestion control= in general, I feel pretty strongly that the browser can=E2=80=99t ignore s= ignaled bandwidth limits and this needs to say something more like the &quo= t;MUST not exceed signaled bandwidth"


Page 20-22,

Section 7.2 - I felt like this section was supposed to convince me it was a= ll OK but the more I read it the more confused I was. What does one do if s= ending video on says a 768 kbps link? Send every 5 frames?

I think part of the confusion stemmed from the implication that to do good = congestion control, you needed a report once ever say RTT but in RTP we cou= ld not do that so we would fall back to a far less frequent reporting of on= ce ever frame. But ever frame is less than the RTT in most internet case so= I was just confused by the whole section.

I don=E2=80=99t think this section is going to help implementors much as it= is - perhaps it could just be refactored a bit to help implementers unders= tand how often to send RTCP and why.


Page 24

Has

All WebRTC implementations MUST be prepared to receive RTP XR report packet= s, whether or not they were signaled.

I disagree with this - we are in a non multicast environment with RTP insid= e DTLS/SRTP. One should not be getting reports for extensions that were not= negotiated.

Similarly on page 25 the text has

The RTP extensions to be used SHOULD be agreed upon,

I think this needs to be a MUST.



Page 27

I think it would be best to just remove the line

=C2=A0This document [I-D.ietf-mmusic-msid] also defines, in section 4.1, ho= w to map unknown source packet stream SSRCs to MediaStreamTracks and MediaS= treams.

as that is not key to this spec.


Page 36 - 37

Section 12.2.2.

So if I read this right, it says you MUST resolve SSRC collisions but RFC 5= 576 has no way to do that. What are implementors supposed to do ?

Even ignoring 5576 - it=E2=80=99s just not clear to me how one detects and = resolves SSRC collisions.



Cullen with my individual contributor hat on.


_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

--001a11c2283a17617704f900394e-- From nobody Sat May 10 08:56:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C75431A000C for ; Sat, 10 May 2014 08:56:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SwOVFmHB6Dds for ; Sat, 10 May 2014 08:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [93.93.130.6]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D61781A000A for ; Sat, 10 May 2014 08:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=56206 helo=mangole.lan) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Wj9dZ-0005Et-TJ; Sat, 10 May 2014 16:56:34 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 10 May 2014 16:56:31 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2FAF1D94-DBAB-43EB-97CF-7ACA2213A7B5@iii.ca> To: Bernard Aboba X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: -28 X-Mythic-Debug: Threshold = On = Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/66_wDxy6R7VR_DXSRevQuZG6-Cs Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 10 May 2014 15:56:45 -0000 Thanks for the comments. I just have a quick response now; a full = response to the other points is coming later. On 10 May 2014, at 00:47, Bernard Aboba wrote: > Cullen said: >=20 > "This has RTX (RFC4588) and MUST. RTX has turned out to be close to = useless in interactive communications systems because the RTT is just = too high to make this viable. " >=20 > [BA] Where temporal scaling is used, RTX can be useful in protecting = the base layer. So it's not universally useless. I do agree that MUST = is too strict, though. What the draft says is (Section 6.1): Receivers are REQUIRED to implement support for RTP retransmission packets [RFC4588]. Senders MAY send RTP retransmission packets in response to NACKs if the RTP retransmission payload format has been negotiated for the session, and if the sender believes it is useful to send a retransmission of the packet(s) referenced in the NACK. An RTP sender does not need to retransmit every NACKed packet. This is a little more nuanced than simply =93MUST=94. > "It says FEC is not required. I=92m OK with this but my notes have it = as the WG previously agreed on this being required. " >=20 > [BA] Yeah, I wondered about that, too.=20 The key passage from Section 6.2 of the draft is: There are several block-based FEC schemes that are designed for use with RTP independent of the chosen RTP payload format. At the time of this writing there is no consensus on which, if any, of these FEC schemes is appropriate for use in the WebRTC context. Accordingly, this memo makes no recommendation on the choice of block-based FEC for WebRTC use. If this is wrong, and there is consensus on a particular FEC scheme that = works with bundled media, then we can reference it. Colin --=20 Colin Perkins http://csperkins.org/ From nobody Sun May 11 07:02:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B8351A01C9 for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 07:01:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kfZUW7AS_1sw for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 07:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22e.google.com (mail-wi0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B14D1A0334 for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 07:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f174.google.com with SMTP id r20so3295473wiv.13 for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 07:01:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :content-type:thread-index:content-language; bh=5tY9i8fZc0wdzwveTIPEPI2+wdRAUDUmvZt/ceFkNfI=; b=UmtnQsdnfhIQSqKzk9ij/01o2H8i4uQHB2uApWS2700bThB5aJ4u1DNdPCKb0QmcWB GhaKpP/rqZOtgfaeZVX+nSe3zdZ5b9PAXomd85WxYRVjzuEY/UM5qi0dOsT2hwtseHBE gKxmm/pwA2pP/NkkpC1PGMdaNHXZSuOcigZ0DIKOt6HciDD6gXCkNeRDZT8GKPafBUfU PHgoR6vYtYDPyiZTnExHUHdlfaF1AW6ZUlukBPY00DaxDgPIxfHLAW8A5axVxgrJWa22 zl38JFK7QIuPoL6LD0B+05KuLQ1TtzyEOyT28QgJwaQK4Djfdmtx4eXxRLGbw2AD8XG4 nIQw== X-Received: by 10.180.39.175 with SMTP id q15mr11501754wik.4.1399816892030; Sun, 11 May 2014 07:01:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from RoniE ([109.67.104.144]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ej7sm10486114wib.9.2014.05.11.07.01.28 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 11 May 2014 07:01:31 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roni Even" To: "'Ted Hardie'" , , "'Cullen Jennings'" , "'Sean Turner'" References: In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 17:01:26 +0300 Message-ID: <042901cf6d21$82133940$8639abc0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_042A_01CF6D3A.A76182B0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQG03FJhLXXIa8h7F3t0YKD5B2FKdptwYBKA Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/IMDIayr3-XYWQ4eB0zrQCukowVs Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 14:01:51 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_042A_01CF6D3A.A76182B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Just nits =20 1. Section 8 last paragraph =E2=80=9CRTP XR=E2=80=9D should be = =E2=80=9CRTCP XR=E2=80=9D =20 2. The last sentence in the paragraph after figure 1 =E2=80=9Cit = it believed=E2=80=9D =20 3. In section 12.2.2 bullet 4 =E2=80=9CWhile is is = clearly=E2=80=9D. BTW: this case can be a self-view in the mixer case = which may be a feature and not a bug. It may also be a loop-back. =20 =20 Roni =20 =20 From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ted Hardie Sent: 24 April, 2014 6:13 PM To: rtcweb@ietf.org; Cullen Jennings; Sean Turner Subject: [rtcweb] Working Group Last Call for = draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 =20 This begins a working group last call on draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13; = please review the document and provide comments to the list by May 9, = 2014. thanks, Ted, Cullen, Sean ------=_NextPart_000_042A_01CF6D3A.A76182B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

Just = nits

 =

1.       =
Section 8 =
last paragraph =E2=80=9CRTP =
XR=E2=80=9D should be =E2=80=9CRTCP =
XR=E2=80=9D
 =

2.       =
The last =
sentence in the paragraph after figure 1 =E2=80=9Cit it =
believed=E2=80=9D
 =

3.       =
In section =
12.2.2 bullet 4 =E2=80=9CWhile is is clearly=E2=80=9D. BTW: this case =
can be a self-view in the mixer case which may be a feature and not a =
bug. It may also be a loop-back.
 =

 =

Roni
 =

 

From:= = rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ted = Hardie
Sent: 24 April, 2014 6:13 PM
To: = rtcweb@ietf.org; Cullen Jennings; Sean Turner
Subject: = [rtcweb] Working Group Last Call for = draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13

 

This begins a working group last = call on draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13; please review the document and = provide comments to the list by May 9, = 2014.

thanks,

Ted, Cullen, = Sean

------=_NextPart_000_042A_01CF6D3A.A76182B0-- From nobody Sun May 11 16:52:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA42D1A037F for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 16:52:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gqaLA_jXGO_x for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 16:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f176.google.com (mail-wi0-f176.google.com [209.85.212.176]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EDC41A0381 for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 16:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f176.google.com with SMTP id n15so3623386wiw.9 for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 16:52:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=1NHUlu30nYtfeNfmKmPF/A9qXgN+eJOVCSc8aYJHrPw=; b=b/eFcS1/bjA76r3D34n+VrJG9e4LogX5j9Lcz0C0VQsWkozTSdCLGAQx6aHArn7fD+ OjWvCHMTczSW9y0WmfLvk8Fnt9lNuX9m3kP6XUyMyVZkcbwLstum49Rp20+ghvcaOah3 unFGfN+qwQdT3UIeyvjNxcLz5008wMfyohWUkVXU0oEpNL7yAYdoykXIXZPlwQz3IL32 qKmFtwGcmmSIo/+Imzo9Nwz4gURsD6Z764V8D2APdDegkQs2vjgzNqkh+oYJkYRxw0BY IdFTM5n7Xq2daawOkYfPGTWq+/N+vrH/VKJZ47FAyyUdLhI8PGBRabHW/U9rD6b2Qo79 VVnA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQncUDOOerDSK2YF1QMDockb4bj3SrqMYkUMP1Y3MaQpIbDcX92xtiBrbSbEkdCeZ7JLtR+g X-Received: by 10.180.94.98 with SMTP id db2mr12883200wib.1.1399852343151; Sun, 11 May 2014 16:52:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.218.198 with HTTP; Sun, 11 May 2014 16:51:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [74.95.2.168] From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 16:51:43 -0700 Message-ID: To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04427140a6e57304f9288529 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/uz7llD_kzlAmaVH3gfThrhC6S4Y Subject: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 23:52:31 -0000 --f46d04427140a6e57304f9288529 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 See: https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/11 Section 3.4 reads: When a new ICE candidate is available, the ICE Agent will notify the application via a callback; these candidates will automatically be added to the local session description. When all candidates have been gathered, the callback will also be invoked to signal that the gathering process is complete. However, we agreed in London that we would do "always trickle", and that even if there were candidates available at the time when CreateOffer (because of candidate pooling) was called, they would not be included in the initial offer. Consider the following sequence of events. 0. pc = new RTCPeerConnection(); 1. pc.AddStream(stream); 2. pc.CreateOffer(); 3. CreateOffer callback fires with offer A, and you call SetLocalDescription(); 4. onicecandidate fires with candidate X. 5. pc.CreateOffer() 6. CreateOffer callback fires with offer B. 7. onicecandidate fires with null. So, in London, I think we agreed that offer A would have no candidates. The above text implies that if you were to examine localdescription prior to step #5 or at step #7 it would contain candidate X, and probably that offer B would also contain candidate X. Note that it's quite inconvenient for non-trickle applications to never have any candidates in the SDP, especially after gathering is completed at step #7. However it also seems kind of inconsistent to only update the candidates after SetLocal() has been called. -Ekr --f46d04427140a6e57304f9288529 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
See: https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/11

<= div>Section 3.4 reads:

When a new ICE candidate is= available, the ICE Agent will notify the
application via a callback; these candidates will automatically be
added to the local session description. When all candidates have
been gathered, the callback will also be invoked to signal that the<= /div>
gathering process is complete.

However, we ag= reed in London that we would do "always trickle", and
t= hat even if there were candidates available at the time when CreateOffer
(because of candidate pooling) was called, they would not be included<= /div>
in the initial offer. Consider the following sequence of events.<= /div>

0. pc =3D new RTCPeerConnection();
1. pc= .AddStream(stream);
2. pc.CreateOffer();
3. CreateOffer callback fires with offe= r A, and you call SetLocalDescription();
4. onicecandidate fires = with candidate X.
5. pc.CreateOffer()
6. CreateOffer ca= llback fires with offer B.
7. onicecandidate fires with null.

So, in Lon= don, I think we agreed that offer A would have no candidates.
The= above text implies that if you were to examine localdescription prior
to step #5 or at step #7 it would contain candidate X, and probably th= at offer B would
also contain candidate X.

Note that it's quite inconvenient for non-trickle applications to ne= ver
have any candidates in the SDP, especially after gathering is complete= d
at step #7. However it also seems kind of inconsistent to only = update the
candidates after SetLocal() has been called.

-Ekr

--f46d04427140a6e57304f9288529-- From nobody Sun May 11 17:19:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D81F31A0384 for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 17:19:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LfM_Zmn8B8JQ for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 17:19:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-f41.google.com (mail-wg0-f41.google.com [74.125.82.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8C361A0383 for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 17:19:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f41.google.com with SMTP id z12so6247513wgg.24 for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 17:19:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=4JzbXJtQaj5LIkA7rvDzEZBSjagoIMOBa5pIAg6UEJY=; b=cC3wfRhQqS8fZ/n2Y3pm3yyw17UpDMudA6AK3jMBK71ogRUutCZjwadJ9IjH/2jL0C HCvP92SJL8TRVfo6VpYEAV+2UIDX/gvWUUgIXQPxli9SUAqVki802RFJC1uxe/yxeKxC YEHKKrdIX20wwUNcWUKQEuo3bYu9wrrCbzuktVy6w4slopAeEM5MkTruHeiwZPqMSgPw NUy2y/1RtzAA743GA24DFGw3nwiYqMkKw/7sdHVl2Zut7y1B2Jjsj3081P9jqbujUMhD CCPMGJ2RSmDrbLweMXAMePLskb8jJVGwtbcj77NFCanIGL6ip53bDcDiYz9Pzy6vjD0q KsbQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQm1sZndciUW17ow1Fkwk6mJYDqxapoO9EPEm570/woXHyTfwGuogJKNoIB4xAY340V1jDu+ X-Received: by 10.180.94.226 with SMTP id df2mr12769956wib.1.1399853972619; Sun, 11 May 2014 17:19:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.218.198 with HTTP; Sun, 11 May 2014 17:18:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [74.95.2.168] From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 17:18:52 -0700 Message-ID: To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , "public-webrtc@w3.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04447e61c69bdb04f928e69e Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/FIQG0aQ1LGdK7OT5OopbUGPeAew Subject: [rtcweb] Default candidate pool size X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 00:19:41 -0000 --f46d04447e61c69bdb04f928e69e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/12 JSEP says: S 4.1.1. " The PeerConnection constructor allows the application to specify global parameters for the media session, such as the STUN/TURN servers and credentials to use when gathering candidates. The size of the ICE candidate pool can also be set, if desired; by default the candidate pool size is zero." The WebRTC spec says: "At this point the ICE Agent does not know how many ICE components it needs (and hence the number of candidates to gather), but it can make a reasonable assumption such as 2. As the RTCPeerConnection object gets more information, the ICE Agent can adjust the number of components" These need to be harmonized. My personal opinion is that candidate pooling is useful here and we should probably leave the default in the hands of the browser. I could live with 0 however. -Ekr --f46d04447e61c69bdb04f928e69e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
ht= tps://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/12

J= SEP says:
S 4.1.1.
" The PeerConnection constructo= r allows the application to specify
global parameters for the media session, such as the STUN/TURN servers=
and credentials to use when gathering candidates. The size of th= e ICE
candidate pool can also be set, if desired; by default the = candidate
pool size is zero."

The WebRTC spec says= :
"At this point the ICE Agent does not know how many ICE co= mponents it
needs (and hence the number of candidates to gather),= but it can make
a reasonable assumption such as 2. As the RTCPeerConnection object
gets more information, the ICE Agent can adjust the number of
<= div>components"

These need to be harmon= ized.

My personal opinion is that candidate pooling is useful= here and we
should probably leave the default in the hands of th= e browser. I
could live with 0 however.

-Ekr

--f46d04447e61c69bdb04f928e69e-- From nobody Sun May 11 17:56:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4625E1A03AA for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 17:56:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7Zfo0rVZMkJm for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 17:56:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f173.google.com (mail-wi0-f173.google.com [209.85.212.173]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 968841A02AE for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 17:56:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f173.google.com with SMTP id bs8so3663544wib.12 for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 17:56:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=jxEAQMU3GRQJ1Kh+EeEndCpLXfbxOVdH8oCrt25JdaE=; b=UgFTKJ3eH31H7uYiTsTI/VX9fbSeq+o2OqclntNbSzYg8kpKJtXALpnIqbD++cOR6n 7C1p0XjcvMaZOk0kSrTbPbGrDFsXEQsDIuW+nmVq6JXf+JuIhz/eMvx5+VlEN33I7iX3 io3auVs19V99i3ni8V+chyGn4tmL7B1dA6+I6Cj208CfU7Uu+jZekXakb4bjo9cBaIky AfYtvZSMg0zYCOLhGJfaNpIkURQRiM3499bHZORPcnKfAZuVZFesIeJo2XO/74JmtI8X Yh69hP/M8M7caKYhwEfxLnZUVU0oGrW4W40uoPx252XvcBDdNzopArw/Uk2+nvdUToYo EKxw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnZXTM4LMeoBZl/w0NZC/eg31JUBGYDnyx82lmtedpGdYn/Egpkg5kRhT4R6SY7h5Ey2qlm X-Received: by 10.194.9.36 with SMTP id w4mr328155wja.79.1399856181395; Sun, 11 May 2014 17:56:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.218.198 with HTTP; Sun, 11 May 2014 17:55:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [74.95.2.168] From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 17:55:41 -0700 Message-ID: To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b5d863d6ddac604f9296a13 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/FCkw6xTeH3XrMlvXV0HOtR2m6tM Subject: [rtcweb] Unique credentials for non-bundled m-lines X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 00:56:29 -0000 --047d7b5d863d6ddac604f9296a13 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/17 JSEP S 5.2.1 reads: Each m= section, provided it is not being bundled into another m= section, MUST generate a unique set of ICE credentials and gather its own unique set of ICE candidates. Otherwise, it MUST use the same ICE credentials and candidates that were used in the m= section that it is being bundled into. But Section 15.4 of ICE explicitly permits m-lines to share credentials, and of course ICE knows nothing of BUNDLE: The "ice-pwd" and "ice-ufrag" attributes can appear at either the session-level or media-level. When present in both, the value in the media-level takes precedence. Thus, the value at the session-level is effectively a default that applies to all media streams, unless overridden by a media-level value. Whether present at the session or media-level, there MUST be an ice-pwd and ice-ufrag attribute for each media stream. If two media streams have identical ice-ufrag's, they MUST have identical ice-pwd's. Is there a reason for requiring unique credentials? If not I suggest we remove this requirement. -Ekr --047d7b5d863d6ddac604f9296a13 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Each m=3D section, provided i= t is not being bundled into another m=3D
section, MUST generate a unique set of ICE credentials and gather its<= /div>
own unique set of ICE candidates. Otherwise, it MUST use the same= ICE
credentials and candidates that were used in the m=3D sectio= n that it is
being bundled into.

But Section 15.4 of ICE e= xplicitly permits m-lines to share
credentials, and of course ICE= knows nothing of BUNDLE:

The "ice-pwd" = and "ice-ufrag" attributes can appear at either the
session-level or media-level. When present in both, the value in the
media-level takes precedence. Thus, the value at the session-level= is
effectively a default that applies to all media streams, unle= ss
overridden by a media-level value. Whether present at the session or
media-level, there MUST be an ice-pwd and ice-ufrag attribute for = each
media stream. If two media streams have identical ice-ufrag&= #39;s, they
MUST have identical ice-pwd's.

Is there a= reason for requiring unique credentials? If not I suggest
we rem= ove this requirement.

-Ekr

--047d7b5d863d6ddac604f9296a13-- From nobody Sun May 11 19:11:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECAAD1A03BE for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 19:11:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PkaQVzFhOojz for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 19:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cserver5.myshophosting.com (cserver5.myshophosting.com [175.107.161.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 488C61A03B9 for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 19:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp118-209-77-85.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net ([118.209.77.85]:54933 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by cserver5.myshophosting.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WjfhJ-0008Ul-OY for rtcweb@ietf.org; Mon, 12 May 2014 12:10:33 +1000 Message-ID: <53702DCA.2060807@nteczone.com> Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 12:11:22 +1000 From: Christian Groves User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <036a01cf6b5e$dfd686f0$9f8394d0$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <036a01cf6b5e$dfd686f0$9f8394d0$@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cserver5.myshophosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - nteczone.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: cserver5.myshophosting.com: authenticated_id: christian.groves@nteczone.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/rd5x5qYL7m44fvau8lD-Leb390Q Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 02:11:34 -0000 Likewise. Christian On 9/05/2014 6:15 PM, Roni Even wrote: > > I plan to attend remotely but based on the time difference will be > also happy if recording will be avialble > > Roni Even > > *From:*rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Ted Hardie > *Sent:* 08 May, 2014 7:42 PM > *To:* Mary Barnes > *Cc:* rtcweb@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 > > On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Mary Barnes > > wrote: > > Is there remote participation information available? I could not > find anything in my email archives nor on the mailing list. > > Thanks, > > Mary. > > ​Hi Mary, > > Thanks for raising the question; the answer may depend slightly on how > many people are attending remotely. > > Anyone who is currently planning to attend remotely, can you let the > chairs know? > > thanks, > > Ted > > > > On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Cullen Jennings > wrote: > > > Below is a the current agenda for the upcoming RTCWEB Interim > (essentially, we have the morning sessions for the three days May > 19, May 20, May 21 2014). If you have not filled in your > participation in the doodle poll, please do so at: > http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn. That helps us plan space and > food as well as have badges ready. > > Thanks > > Ted, Sean, Cullen > > > Interim Meeting RTCWEB May 2014 > http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn > > Day 1 > > Admin Trivia (15m) - Chairs > > RTP + Media (75m) Magnus Westerlund and Harald Alvestrand > draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-05 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-03 > > JSEP (2.5h) Eric Rescorla > draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06 > > > Day 2 > > Data Channel (4h) Randell Jesup > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-08 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-04 > > > Day 3 > > Security ( 2h ) Eric Rescorla > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09 > > ALPN ( 15m ) Martin Thomson > draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn-00 > > Consent Freshness ( 30m) Martin Thomson > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02 > > > Matters arising from webrtc meetings ( remaining time) > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From nobody Sun May 11 21:51:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 554FF1A03EE for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 21:51:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8WK_x1iQiE0N for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 21:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-f52.google.com (mail-wg0-f52.google.com [74.125.82.52]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B60121A03EA for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 21:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f52.google.com with SMTP id l18so6176552wgh.11 for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 21:50:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=lLjL5zC3DzT2YUifJ4RDLDZKou0YzJrKzYQCqKFdERo=; b=EyDE6iiSuUS9TzTkCqnK4s6LPvey4EXI08PnwzJ9pW4xmRf4cuBWcHHSPpVAYQQjpI OMTYVPrh3+WTqM5pzBgNcd4oDTOUnuA4VEyTzlOX6wNZYrDTTQmKv/5tetMb/l8/kUjx sllNIzE0DJ67QrmjpbNJ+UPdrF1JTt+JpXcN1IwY4HWHnreZpf8QaeV4PFdNVGF4IIvK zZ8geayJkLGKkIr+DjI60kEd5YaDLe6yRjrWdkslX/nziXmHBzySJ1sPEKnArI2IUq3t 5zjhlC+/klYGIZflaeS29nnm4DakQy9wOlbXUcJ5+LOWM0htHHULpNbo/I2D5VLod5BK Gf8Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnuBRi4AVHjvGc3jy/WO3VSTrkUs0+YbbbATasfBMrMlNIIurorauMTPzSrxVmrUPW0VFT0 X-Received: by 10.180.94.226 with SMTP id df2mr13451213wib.1.1399870258447; Sun, 11 May 2014 21:50:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.218.198 with HTTP; Sun, 11 May 2014 21:50:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [74.95.2.168] From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 21:50:18 -0700 Message-ID: To: mmusic WG , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04447e617cf71a04f92cb156 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/DNsiRpXNE833cs9D_ViKYibP8E4 Subject: [rtcweb] m-line recycling X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 04:51:06 -0000 --f46d04447e617cf71a04f92cb156 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 The JSEP spec specifies m-line recycling: o If any MediaStreamTracks have been added, and there exist m= sections of the appropriate media type with no associated MediaStreamTracks (i.e. as described in the preceding paragraph), those m= sections MUST be recycled by adding the new MediaStreamTrack to the m= section. This is done by adding the necessary "a=msid", "a=ssrc", and "a=ssrc-group" lines to the recycled m= section, and removing the "a=recvonly" attribute. Based on the minutes from IETF 89, we were going to take this to mmusic. http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-89-rtcweb?useMonospaceFont=true Thoughts? -Ekr https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/21 --f46d04447e617cf71a04f92cb156 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The JSEP spec = specifies m-line recycling:


 o  If any MediaStreamTracks ha=
ve been added, and there exist m=3D
      sections of the appropriate media type with no associated
      MediaStreamTracks (i.e. as described in the preceding paragraph),
      those m=3D sections MUST be recycled by adding the new
      MediaStreamTrack to the m=3D section.  This is done by adding the
      necessary "a=3Dmsid", "a=3Dssrc", and "a=3Ds=
src-group" lines to the
      recycled m=3D section, and removing the "a=3Drecvonly" attr=
ibute.
Based=C2=A0o=
n the minutes from IETF 89, we were going to take this to mmusic.


h=
ttp://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-89-rtcweb?useMonospaceFont=
=3Dtrue



Thoughts?
-Ekr

--f46d04447e617cf71a04f92cb156-- From nobody Sun May 11 21:53:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EE601A03F6 for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 21:53:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A8VTCV4DLJOE for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 21:53:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-f41.google.com (mail-wg0-f41.google.com [74.125.82.41]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 080551A03EF for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 21:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f41.google.com with SMTP id z12so6406026wgg.24 for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 21:53:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=fSn7F79U6EPDEBB/xRGqvV/3dyiodP2QCTko6nUV7/4=; b=lm83Rk6ga4Iwjv3vqvHYoLioojX2ctercTzyPL/Lf82/pe9YQdj+VZc7PFU8xb/8/B hIq9opZ6oMnn3HAcO1o+3tdZP9jrT5Aq+YdaPMXfN71yElDYIuBv1Dc3hAojLiogF+Cr 4dVpvSQPHAu+lp2akso1S/pQpYtR7dxn2fMPGnXKSAFd3nSs26aqPhIEqu3SfsJtqE5E wNY3XiMY2ePzpi2/j7OTwldAH+lyaZpOVTTNX5fO9zjxWct4CpFDGoO8C3qH8sefm1OK 2+9jhRJLAicmvYcw6j1kGm39AORIMMs+E9oTzBXetGixJlmpq6Fh13ItOXLnku4fb8l1 cm7w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkSHeCTzyFQodwVyvVfwOgqQn5chT3K7RGV+h3XCSMdR+th49R0GB/zJqe7XYEo1rHE+W8u X-Received: by 10.194.175.70 with SMTP id by6mr19348981wjc.3.1399870394836; Sun, 11 May 2014 21:53:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.218.198 with HTTP; Sun, 11 May 2014 21:52:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [74.95.2.168] From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 21:52:34 -0700 Message-ID: To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013d175a9dbfac04f92cb983 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/U51yECQ5oM6enVNyvxlMt0LstTA Subject: [rtcweb] (no subject) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 04:53:22 -0000 --089e013d175a9dbfac04f92cb983 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/19 JSEP S 5.2.1 reads: Attributes that are common between all m= sections MAY be moved to session-level, if explicitly defined to be valid at session-level. We should probably encourage this. I propose we make this a SHOULD rather than a MAY. -Ekr --089e013d175a9dbfac04f92cb983 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
ht= tps://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/19

JSEP S 5.2= .1 reads:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Attributes that are common between= all m=3D sections MAY be moved to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0session-level, if explicitly defined to be valid at sessi= on-level.

We should probably encourage= this. I propose we make this a SHOULD
rather than a MAY.

-Ekr

--089e013d175a9dbfac04f92cb983-- From nobody Sun May 11 22:41:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A6451A03F6 for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 22:41:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rp4qEQdn5wnx for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 22:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x22b.google.com (mail-wg0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A3291A02C7 for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 22:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f43.google.com with SMTP id l18so6373979wgh.14 for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 22:41:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=PeC2S5hMeoV5Y/ID2xpDNZtKEzXgv0m5Ys5XsJSHShY=; b=MjLkH3L3j4+hHE4b4yUJcT3ZMA+VlvIHI927lUVhxkgsuWV9jiuF9guwtZUH0//XcM kEymAFiicM5CCje2Ed0IJbKthGUgjkKJVslMgM8lJTdkp6LDchoH5DKTWbvdfa7pFzEy QlbuzoWDqXHrKWdSs/SlsZclk7P4xhZwMHXcg2oPWm4i8zngkpaN2y6ONsLfBRX+QWKq bd9OzSZ7ESPcksbTLDa8kyHpNLC3aVUl6KhVxLuHho+dYUad0Fuo8Di+lE65Oe2namAy o98rS+8IdDcMrnulyD5xV9JkJLmCRoUUen5dTNATN2P7LLASBhE5GgGSUykjiImACvLu m1jA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.185.100 with SMTP id fb4mr13973034wic.11.1399873288620; Sun, 11 May 2014 22:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.180.13.73 with HTTP; Sun, 11 May 2014 22:41:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 22:41:28 -0700 Message-ID: From: Suhas Nandakumar To: Eric Rescorla Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c23ff61950a904f92d6653 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/CLTCX2aJWZH2abf99Qff_eDKbbA Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] (no subject) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 05:41:37 -0000 --001a11c23ff61950a904f92d6653 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 +1. Agree to make it SHOULD. On Sun, May 11, 2014 at 9:52 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/19 > > JSEP S 5.2.1 reads: > > Attributes that are common between all m= sections MAY be moved to > session-level, if explicitly defined to be valid at session-level. > > We should probably encourage this. I propose we make this a SHOULD > rather than a MAY. > > -Ekr > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > --001a11c23ff61950a904f92d6653 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+1. Agree to make it SHOULD.


On Sun, May 11, 2014 at 9:52 PM, Eric= Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
https://github.com/rtcweb-wg= /jsep/issues/19

JSEP S 5.2.1 reads:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Attribute= s that are common between all m=3D sections MAY be moved to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0session-level, if explicitly defined to be valid at sessi= on-level.

We should probably encourage= this. I propose we make this a SHOULD
rather than a MAY.

-Ekr


_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


--001a11c23ff61950a904f92d6653-- From nobody Sun May 11 23:48:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 437651A0413 for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 23:48:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QZl-OOhSMTcW for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 23:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3ED01A007E for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 23:48:09 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f79036d00000126a-85-53706ea30cc4 Received: from ESESSHC002.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id B4.63.04714.3AE60735; Mon, 12 May 2014 08:48:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.191]) by ESESSHC002.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.24]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Mon, 12 May 2014 08:48:02 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Suhas Nandakumar , Eric Rescorla Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] (no subject) Thread-Index: AQHPbZ4Z2+eaI/Y5N0+VRhbcwTiuTZs8TOAAgAAzcpA= Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 06:48:01 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D2F66D5@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.17] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D2F66D5ESESSMB209erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFuplkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGfG3RndxXkGwwYWZ4hYrXp9jt1j7r53d 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X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CADXR7uXIDj1 for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 23:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server209.appriver.com (server209g.appriver.com [8.31.233.122]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A22FA1A007E for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 23:48:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Note-AR-ScanTimeLocal: 5/12/2014 2:48:47 AM X-Policy: GLOBAL - vidyo.com X-Policy: GLOBAL - vidyo.com X-Policy: GLOBAL - vidyo.com X-Primary: alex@vidyo.com X-Note: This Email was scanned by AppRiver SecureTide X-Virus-Scan: V- X-Note-SnifferID: 0 X-Note: TCH-CT/SI:0-62/SG:2 5/12/2014 2:48:16 AM X-GBUdb-Analysis: 0, 162.209.16.213, Ugly c=0.863514 p=-0.986229 Source White X-Signature-Violations: 0-0-0-3132-c X-Note-419: 0 ms. Fail:0 Chk:1340 of 1340 total X-Note: SCH-CT/SI:0-1340/SG:1 5/12/2014 2:48:30 AM X-Note: Spam Tests Failed: X-Country-Path: ->UNITED STATES-> X-Note-Sending-IP: 162.209.16.213 X-Note-Reverse-DNS: mail2.vidyo.com X-Note-Return-Path: alex@vidyo.com X-Note: User Rule Hits: X-Note: Global Rule Hits: G327 G328 G329 G330 G334 G335 G445 X-Note: Encrypt Rule Hits: X-Note: Mail Class: VALID X-Note: Headers Injected Received: from [162.209.16.213] (HELO mail.vidyo.com) by server209.appriver.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.2) with ESMTPS id 122480239; Mon, 12 May 2014 02:48:47 -0400 Received: from 492133-EXCH2.vidyo.com ([fe80::50:56ff:fe85:6b62]) by 492132-EXCH1.vidyo.com ([fe80::50:56ff:fe85:4f77%13]) with mapi id 14.03.0146.000; Mon, 12 May 2014 01:48:46 -0500 From: Alex Eleftheriadis To: Bernard Aboba Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 Thread-Index: AQHPa+EXLyIuipcI9kaKos/pv/5w85s82H4A Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 06:48:45 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2FAF1D94-DBAB-43EB-97CF-7ACA2213A7B5@iii.ca> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [85.72.60.87] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <22B10683A19ECD49906246598A67A88B@vidyo.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/lYbz4L1GuqTaroZrsJCmQEyp3gM Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 06:48:59 -0000 On May 10, 2014, at 2:47 AM, Bernard Aboba wrote: > Cullen said: >=20 > "This has RTX (RFC4588) and MUST. RTX has turned out to be close to usele= ss in interactive communications systems because the RTT is just too high t= o make this viable. " >=20 > [BA] Where temporal scaling is used, RTX can be useful in protecting the = base layer. So it's not universally useless. I do agree that MUST is too = strict, though. >=20 Let's make sure that this point is clearly understood, because it keeps re-= appearing in discussions.=20 When temporal scalability is used, the lowest temporal level frames are far= enough apart that retransmission can be used. This is already deployed in = products, and is supported by all RTP payload formats for video codecs that= support temporal scalability (H.264 SVC, VP8, HEVC).=20 Regards, --Alex From nobody Sun May 11 23:51:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67B7D1A0420 for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 23:51:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iBSbg11X32IB for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 23:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server209.appriver.com (server209c.appriver.com [8.31.233.118]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94CEC1A041B for ; Sun, 11 May 2014 23:51:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Note-AR-ScanTimeLocal: 5/12/2014 2:51:10 AM X-Policy: GLOBAL - vidyo.com X-Policy: GLOBAL - vidyo.com X-Primary: alex@vidyo.com X-Note: This Email was scanned by AppRiver SecureTide X-Virus-Scan: V- X-Note-SnifferID: 0 X-Note: TCH-CT/SI:0-58/SG:2 5/12/2014 2:50:51 AM X-GBUdb-Analysis: 0, 162.209.16.213, Ugly c=0.862325 p=-0.986534 Source White X-Signature-Violations: 0-0-0-13019-c X-Note-419: 15.6004 ms. Fail:0 Chk:1340 of 1340 total X-Note: SCH-CT/SI:0-1340/SG:1 5/12/2014 2:51:07 AM X-Note: Spam Tests Failed: X-Country-Path: ->UNITED STATES-> X-Note-Sending-IP: 162.209.16.213 X-Note-Reverse-DNS: mail1.vidyo.com X-Note-Return-Path: alex@vidyo.com X-Note: User Rule Hits: X-Note: Global Rule Hits: G327 G328 G329 G330 G334 G335 G445 X-Note: Encrypt Rule Hits: X-Note: Mail Class: VALID X-Note: Headers Injected Received: from [162.209.16.213] (HELO mail.vidyo.com) by server209.appriver.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.8) with ESMTPS id 96234181; Mon, 12 May 2014 02:51:09 -0400 Received: from 492133-EXCH2.vidyo.com ([fe80::50:56ff:fe85:6b62]) by 492132-EXCH1.vidyo.com ([fe80::50:56ff:fe85:4f77%13]) with mapi id 14.03.0146.000; Mon, 12 May 2014 01:51:09 -0500 From: Alex Eleftheriadis To: Magnus Westerlund Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13.txt Thread-Index: AQHPXvfmeuYcI7i6ykmMzZ63gXbx1JsfhuwAgB1sDIA= Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 06:51:08 +0000 Message-ID: <5DB48F3D-980D-43CF-83BF-4E12BFC8B794@vidyo.com> References: <20140423132741.9210.61684.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5357C102.2060606@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <5357C102.2060606@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [85.72.60.87] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/NAL2j_3hEAdxexUVHts6coKAYfE Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 06:51:19 -0000 Hi Magnus/all.=20 Great document. I took the time to write down some comments, most editorial= but not all. I list them below sorted by page number.=20 Regards, --Alex * * * * * * * * * * * * * * -- p. 17, Section 6 The first paragraph seems to suggest that the overhead is always non-trivia= l. In fact, techniques such as the one mentioned in Section 6.1 can be done= with very small overhead (bits) and, specifically, without requiring "a lo= wer base encoding quality". The paragraph can be read to suggest that such = lowering is *always* required for robustness.=20 -- p. 23, 3rd paragraph "both effective congestion control" -> delete "both". -- p. 26, 2nd paragraph "Thus it is possible for multiple source packet streams to share encoded st= reams (but not packet streams), but this is an implementation choice to try= to utilise such optimisations." I am not sure I understand this. An example would help. (The sentence needs= a rewrite anyway.) -- p. 26, 3rd paragraph "and don't forces a end-point to change" -> "and does not force an end-poin= t to change" -- p. 27, 1st paragraph "can request that the ... to be the same" -> delete "to".=20 "this allow for synchronization" -> "this allows for synchronization" -- p. 27, 3rd paragraph "that receives an MediaStreamTrack" -> "that receives a MediaStreamTrack" "for its the sent streams" -> "for its sent streams". "etc followed" -> "etc., followed" -- p. 30, 2nd paragraph "possible to accomplished by establishing" -> "possible to be accomplished = by establishing" -- p. 31, 1st paragraph "It it believed" -> "It is believed" Also, the statement in that last sentence: "It is believed that these advan= tages outweigh the limitations in debugging power." is putting it mildly := -) -- p. 34, 4th paragraph "the second the actual mechanism to prioritize packets" -> "the second cons= isting of the actual mechanism to prioritize packets". -- p. 36, 12.2.1 title "Media Source" -> "Media Source Identification" --p. 36, 2nd and 3rd paragraphs IN the 2nd paragraph it is stated "to avoid exposing the SSRC/CSRC name spa= ce to JavaScript applications". In the 3rd: "This information [audio level = for each contributing source] can usefully be exposed in the user interface= ." To make this point, you need to explain how the audio level information is = going to be carried across the API or point somewhere.=20 -- p. 37, 1st, 2nd, and 4th paragraphs "both end-points uses an new SSRC" -> "both end-points use a new SSRC" "reject a end-points usage of an SSRC" -> "reject an end-point's usage of a= n SSRC" "While is is clearly considered" -> "While it is clearly considered" -- general Section 11 appears to require at least one more editorial pass. Make sure you use British or US English consistently (i.e., optimise vs. op= timize :-) On Apr 23, 2014, at 4:32 PM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > WG, >=20 > We authors have been doing some editing on this version to take care of > the last known issues. This includes the text that has been discussed on > the list lately. It also contains an expanded example about RTCP > bandwidth (see Section 7.2). Further we have reviewed the terminology > usage in the document, and applied the AVTEXT grouping taxonomy. >=20 > So, we authors now believe this to be ready for WG last call. >=20 > Cheers >=20 > Magnus >=20 > On 2014-04-23 15:27, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >>=20 >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direc= tories. >> This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers= Working Group of the IETF. >>=20 >> Title : Web Real-Time Communication (WebRTC): Media Tra= nsport and Use of RTP >> Authors : Colin Perkins >> Magnus Westerlund >> Joerg Ott >> Filename : draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13.txt >> Pages : 45 >> Date : 2014-04-23 >>=20 >> Abstract: >> The Web Real-Time Communication (WebRTC) framework provides support >> for direct interactive rich communication using audio, video, text, >> collaboration, games, etc. between two peers' web-browsers. This >> memo describes the media transport aspects of the WebRTC framework. >> It specifies how the Real-time Transport Protocol (RTP) is used in >> the WebRTC context, and gives requirements for which RTP features, >> profiles, and extensions need to be supported. >>=20 >>=20 >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage/ >>=20 >> There's also a htmlized version available at: >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 >>=20 >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 >>=20 >>=20 >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submis= sion >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>=20 >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> I-D-Announce mailing list >> I-D-Announce@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce >> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 >=20 > Magnus Westerlund >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From nobody Sun May 11 23:54:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) 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ESESSHC011.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.51]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Mon, 12 May 2014 08:54:26 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Eric Rescorla , mmusic WG , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] m-line recycling Thread-Index: AQHPbZ3IZCFNfz/Rxkqqe6/mM5wW2Js8gTuQ Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 06:54:26 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D2F672A@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.17] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D2F672AESESSMB209erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrJLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvja5yQUGwwZsnKhYrXp9jt5i6/DGL xdp/7ewOzB5Llvxk8pj8uI05gCmKyyYlNSezLLVI3y6BK6N51w72gjWxFTf71jI3MD6J6mLk 5JAQMJHou/efBcIWk7hwbz1bFyMXh5DAUUaJyyenMkM4Sxglrr+cD+RwcLAJWEh0/9MGaRAR SJHoOXaSEcQWFlCTmP98BxNEXF3i77l7jBC2kcTBDxPYQGwWAVWJq8f+soPYvAK+EjdfLmcG 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for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 02:03:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a4Wa3mmxO4bT for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 02:03:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (demumfd001.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.32]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5C691A0552 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 02:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.55]) by demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id s4C93aDB029744 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 May 2014 09:03:36 GMT Received: from DEMUHTC001.nsn-intra.net ([10.159.42.32]) by demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id s4C93ZJo029954 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 May 2014 11:03:35 +0200 Received: from DEMUHTC006.nsn-intra.net (10.159.42.37) by DEMUHTC001.nsn-intra.net (10.159.42.32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.181.6; Mon, 12 May 2014 11:03:35 +0200 Received: from DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net ([169.254.5.67]) by DEMUHTC006.nsn-intra.net ([10.159.42.37]) with mapi id 14.03.0181.006; Mon, 12 May 2014 11:03:35 +0200 From: "Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: ext Eric Rescorla , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP Thread-Index: AQHPbXQT9TjLMQgt4EuqU8TdRTYSi5s8fWuA Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 09:03:34 +0000 Message-ID: <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F69E8@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.159.42.104] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F69E8DEMUMBX005nsnintr_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-purgate-type: clean X-purgate-Ad: Categorized by eleven eXpurgate (R) http://www.eleven.de X-purgate: clean X-purgate: This mail is considered clean (visit http://www.eleven.de for further information) X-purgate-size: 14250 X-purgate-ID: 151667::1399885416-00001326-8D6B11A8/0/0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/GAPNeNzqIzkw0KKieAzZIsUWLwo Subject: Re: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 09:03:47 -0000 --_000_56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F69E8DEMUMBX005nsnintr_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 512551A059F for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 02:25:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4Xnn4Cw4vVjQ for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 02:25:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-f46.google.com (mail-qg0-f46.google.com [209.85.192.46]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68A871A055D for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 02:25:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qg0-f46.google.com with SMTP id q108so7181832qgd.19 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 02:25:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+O7tnquzl2P24S8z1PJD6KEAKeQwG0wI4wjCD6rdBjE=; b=nC4OQtHN0UAwgckwLPcVvSp8QcefbBhbbIaeA6UQSsz06DH8EebDGEU4l7MdBiXHw9 bUSi19FQlHgaNpIH3vDVF9LUCvP8cW0n/Lcyabitgehrnhjb3iQcSyeLT6YwQ2JvT4Tj AF68v5kBHLpv46mR/75mVuZA5nnXf3/g2NLf+VDvi13Smg1Tb8fh8sRUnI+kEOd7QaaK WIL5GwnrK2U6sBXvFXEVxALlH8OTRzIt9OkicZ4YgWnEchKY7Laj4znPavplfO89b/Rb wCyS6HWk3a+Og0mAx0ugxKDbnOaCtphUuanNZ1bba2A7w4mS7dsOb8s3411jjAYFTVJ6 mMqQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQk2aR34dcWN/hGe5kaJBhXuh75+p82wvZuTKIq2uyLa5JlXlG8+H10fAK9y4YRBfai8jqER X-Received: by 10.224.134.194 with SMTP id k2mr35818039qat.5.1399886743404; Mon, 12 May 2014 02:25:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.96.203.165 with HTTP; Mon, 12 May 2014 02:25:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: =?UTF-8?Q?I=C3=B1aki_Baz_Castillo?= Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 11:25:23 +0200 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/9ix-tye8QSLS_7dssreTp4saYks Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 09:25:52 -0000 2014-05-12 1:51 GMT+02:00 Eric Rescorla : > 0. pc =3D new RTCPeerConnection(); > 1. pc.AddStream(stream); > 2. pc.CreateOffer(); > 3. CreateOffer callback fires with offer A, and you call > SetLocalDescription(); > 4. onicecandidate fires with candidate X. > 5. pc.CreateOffer() > 6. CreateOffer callback fires with offer B. > 7. onicecandidate fires with null. > > So, in London, I think we agreed that offer A would have no candidates. > The above text implies that if you were to examine localdescription prior > to step #5 or at step #7 it would contain candidate X, and probably that > offer B would also contain candidate X. > > Note that it's quite inconvenient for non-trickle applications to never > have any candidates in the SDP, especially after gathering is completed > at step #7. However it also seems kind of inconsistent to only update the > candidates after SetLocal() has been called. Well, ugly problem due to ugly design, so ugly solution: - var myDesc =3D pc.localDescription; + var myDesc =3D pc.getLocalDescription({candidates: true}); --=20 I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo From nobody Mon May 12 03:45:53 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9F631A0667 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 03:45:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uZnEr89Mcprm for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 03:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from co300216-co-outbound.net.avaya.com (co300216-co-outbound.net.avaya.com [198.152.13.100]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44D9F1A05D1 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 03:45:50 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvgFAPqlcFOHCzIm/2dsb2JhbABZgmUhT1iCZ6hiAQEBB5JCG4ZrUQEZgQEWdIIlAQEBAQMBAQEPERE6FwQCAQgNBAQBAQECAgYdAwICAh8GCxQBCAgCBAESCBqICwMRAQygC4pHnUMNhh8XgSqELIVteIFmFiIGgm82gRUEl1UBgy6FUoYRhWiDNm2BQg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.97,1034,1389762000"; d="scan'208";a="62457273" Received: from unknown (HELO p-us1-erheast-smtpauth.us1.avaya.com) ([135.11.50.38]) by co300216-co-outbound.net.avaya.com with ESMTP; 12 May 2014 06:45:43 -0400 X-OutboundMail_SMTP: 1 Received: from unknown (HELO AZ-FFEXHC03.global.avaya.com) ([135.64.58.13]) by p-us1-erheast-out.us1.avaya.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 12 May 2014 06:44:10 -0400 Received: from AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com ([fe80::6db7:b0af:8480:c126]) by AZ-FFEXHC03.global.avaya.com ([135.64.58.13]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Mon, 12 May 2014 06:45:42 -0400 From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" To: Christian Groves , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 Thread-Index: AQHPbYfzEagX8C0gIkyfRV+vaFkRVZs8w36A Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 10:45:42 +0000 Message-ID: <9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA5C7E3AB0@AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com> References: <036a01cf6b5e$dfd686f0$9f8394d0$@gmail.com> <53702DCA.2060807@nteczone.com> In-Reply-To: <53702DCA.2060807@nteczone.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.64.58.45] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/mJe1DCOSP7z9l5IkeEjFDPPw5zk Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , 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X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78D751A067A for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 04:40:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4iDT5MQ9oz4t for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 04:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8883D1A0675 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 04:40:50 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-f79a86d0000010e9-eb-5370b33b8e95 Received: from ESESSHC014.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 67.01.04329.B33B0735; Mon, 12 May 2014 13:40:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.62) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.174.1; Mon, 12 May 2014 13:40:43 +0200 Message-ID: <5370B330.1090006@ericsson.com> Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 13:40:32 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cullen Jennings , "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: <2FAF1D94-DBAB-43EB-97CF-7ACA2213A7B5@iii.ca> In-Reply-To: <2FAF1D94-DBAB-43EB-97CF-7ACA2213A7B5@iii.ca> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrKLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvja7N5oJgg4OtnBYf1v9gtFj7r53d gcljyZKfTB6Xz39kDGCK4rJJSc3JLEst0rdL4MrYcOQRc0FzdMX3u/8ZGxhb3LsYOTkkBEwk Pj7sZ4SwxSQu3FvP1sXIxSEkcJRR4uXBo4wQznJGiQPd/SwgVbwC2hL7Vz5nB7FZBFQlDvRN ArPZBCwkbv5oZAOxRQWCJTY8/MsOUS8ocXLmE7BeEQEPiUM/P4HFhQUCJPb0XwWLCwnUSfy4 dgjsCk4BK4kd53cxdTFyAF0kLtHTGAQSZhYwkDiyaA4rhC0v0bx1NjNEq7ZEQ1MH6wRGwVlI ts1C0jILScsCRuZVjKLFqcXFuelGRnqpRZnJxcX5eXp5qSWbGIHhenDLb6sdjAefOx5iFOBg VOLhVdAuCBZiTSwrrsw9xCjNwaIkzjtpkXuwkEB6YklqdmpqQWpRfFFpTmrxIUYmDk6pBsaF grcfvPtrffbEK0vjLQ9cI7g6pmyo+FGXIrUw2PJsveC0efmXhIqPVIUeObDnnbh4+NlJOf78 h+R/lmRKHi1VP2iz24gtkeF8bGXlJK13Gxb9SpLfm9LyLnI5t766b82z+tff1D92hf5INk50 PFEgx2H++kPd/sp/vKEui9ddNBJdE7ZpxWYlluKMREMt5qLiRADjvw+bOAIAAA== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/QVSnMeHnWOBVs_0RnaH3m1h7MrY Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 11:40:54 -0000 Hi, Thanks for the feedback, I will work with my co-authors to propose text changes where so is appropriate and see inline for comments or response. On 2014-05-09 16:41, Cullen Jennings wrote: > > Overall the document looks in excellent shape. I do have a bunch of > comments but they are all pretty easy to deal with. > > Page 5 I think that draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream-optimisation > should be MAY not a MUST. We don’t loose significant interoperability > by not having it a MUST. It is not a MUST: "Support for the RTCP optimisations for multi-SSRC sessions defined in [I-D.ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream-optimisation] is RECOMMENDED." And it is recommended for a good reason. Although this is a new spec it provides a significant improvement in RTCP efficiency compared to without it. Below you find the statistical simulation results for the intervals between regular RTCP packets achieved over 10000 RTCP packets in an WebRTC like situation with X number of SSRCs per endpoint between two endpoints, all SSRC are active senders. The RTCP bandwidths are configured as RR: 15000 bps, RS: 10000 bps and T-rr-int = 0 AVPF is base line AVPF AVPF-AGG-ADJ is the scheduling aggregation that is being specified in draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream AVPF-RG-AGG is with the report group extension and the removal of cross reporting specified in draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream-optimisation Average transmission interval from using the different solutions: SSRCs 1 2 3 4 5 AVPF 1.043879 1.126795 1.246220 1.410738 1.599270 AVPF-AGG-ADJ 1.041918 1.110367 1.217367 1.362500 1.549829 AVPF-RG-AGG 1.051294 1.080191 1.113448 1.150983 1.187954 Gain from using the different solutions: SSRCs 1 2 3 4 5 AVPF-AGG-ADJ -0.001879 -0.014579 -0.023152 -0.034193 -0.030915 AVPF-RG-AGG 0.007103 -0.041360 -0.106540 -0.184127 -0.257190 As can be seen the significant gain is for the report group extension, especially as the SSRCs per end point increases. > > Page Sending correct sync information should be MUST not SHOULD. We > can’t make lip sync work without this and I think the flows I have > seen already send it. Note people don’t have to deal with correctly > implementing lip sync on the receiving end, they just have to send > enough information to make it possible that receivers that want to > can. You have misread this: o Sending correct synchronisation information in the RTCP Sender Reports, to allow receivers to implement lip-synchronisation; support for the rapid RTP synchronisation extensions (see Section 5.2.1) is RECOMMENDED. The first part "Sending correct synchronisation information in the RTCP Sender Reports, to allow receivers to implement lip-synchronisation;" is MUST, the second part is providing a recommendation. we had an comment from Olle about this and propose to reformulated this to be: o Sending correct synchronisation information in the RTCP Sender Reports, to allow receivers to implement lip-synchronisation; see Section 5.2.1 regarding support for the rapid RTP synchronisation extensions. > > Has the text "support for RTCP timer reconsideration." but I don’t > know what this means or how to implement it - suspect we just need a > ref or bit more text. Okay, we can add a reference to Section 6.3 of RFC 3550 where this is discussed and defined. > > I’d refer to see "reduced minimum RTCP reporting interval" be a MUST > and I could live with MAY but SHOULD is just lame for this. You will not get a protest from me to make this a MUST. Does anyone else protests? > > > Page 8 > > It has the text > > An end-point that has signalled support for multiple RTP payload > formats SHOULD be able to accept data in any of those payload formats > at any time, unless it has previously signalled limitations on its > decoding capability. > > I think that has to be a MUST not a SHOULD or else this will not > work. Yes, you are correct this really needs to be a MUST to get the desired effect. Otherwise you will have media failures when the sender does this and the receiver isn't capable. > > Page 18 > > This has RTX (RFC4588) and MUST. RTX has turned out to be close to > useless in interactive communications systems because the RTT is just > too high to make this viable. You need to set your jitter buffer to > be larger than the RTT for this work and I am aware of any > significant internet collaborations system that sets the jitter > buffer size that high. I think this should be MAY not MUST but that > said, I can easily live with MUST, it just seems useless at a time > where we are trying to reduce the complexity of the system. I want to really protest about this Retransmission being useless. The experiences we have had when deploying RTP retransmission in a video conference system has been good. The only case where we had real issues have been on intercontinental distances, for example between Stockholm and San Jose where the RTT is large enough to actually cause issues that the user notices. But on short distances like Stockholm to Germany or Finland it works in excellent. This is a system I use almost daily and have been in internal usage for several years. But, yes there are implementation choices regarding the buffering strategies here that do matters. One actually don't have to let the jitter buffer always have one or more RTT extra depth, the alternative is to delay the playout on the occurrences when retransmission is required. As noted by Colin, the MUST is more subtle than requiring RTP retransmission. I think what is in the draft represents the conclusions of the discussion in Stockholm interim as well as on the mailing list after. > > > Page 19 > > It says FEC is not required. I’m OK with this but my notes have it as > the WG previously agreed on this being required. It might be worth > putting this up on a slide in the May meeting and checking the WG is > good with no FEC. Perhaps my notes are all wrong - I did not try and > go back throughout minutes. It’s possible the WG decided different > things and different times. My recollection has also been that the WG has been positive towards FEC, but none has made a suggestion for a specific FEC scheme and RTP encapsulation of it to include at any implementation level. Thus, the formulation that is present in the draft. > > > Page 20 > > Has the text > > signalled bandwidth limits SHOULD be used to limit traffic > > I might be reading this the wrong way but given the weak congestion > control in general, I feel pretty strongly that the browser can’t > ignore signaled bandwidth limits and this needs to say something more > like the "MUST not exceed signaled bandwidth" Lets quote the sentence before the one you partially references: In addition, the signalling channel can establish maximum media bit-rate boundaries using the SDP "b=AS:" or "b=CT:" lines, and the RTP/AVPF Temporary Maximum Media Stream Bit Rate (TMMBR) Requests (see Section 5.1.6 of this memo). Looking at the full sentence you refer to: The combination of media codec choice and signalled bandwidth limits SHOULD be used to limit traffic based on known bandwidth limitations, for example the capacity of the edge links, to the extent possible. My personal interpretation of this text has been that: 1. You follow the limitations the peer signals 2. You SHOULD set these values your self based on known limitations and code configurations. But, looking at the text, we probably needs to make these two distinctions clearer. Adding a MUST statement for the first thing I support. > > > Page 20-22, > > Section 7.2 - I felt like this section was supposed to convince me it > was all OK but the more I read it the more confused I was. What does > one do if sending video on says a 768 kbps link? Send every 5 frames? > > > I think part of the confusion stemmed from the implication that to do > good congestion control, you needed a report once ever say RTT but in > RTP we could not do that so we would fall back to a far less frequent > reporting of once ever frame. But ever frame is less than the RTT in > most internet case so I was just confused by the whole section. > > I don’t think this section is going to help implementors much as it > is - perhaps it could just be refactored a bit to help implementers > understand how often to send RTCP and why. I will have to come back regarding this, I believe I understand the issues you see, but I need to consider further what to do about them. > > > Page 24 > > Has > > All WebRTC implementations MUST be prepared to receive RTP XR report > packets, whether or not they were signaled. > > I disagree with this - we are in a non multicast environment with RTP > inside DTLS/SRTP. One should not be getting reports for extensions > that were not negotiated. I think it is important that RTP stack implementations can ignore unknown or none supported features. At the same time I agree with you that you should normally not get sent features that you don't support and can not use. That is just wasting RTCP bandwidth and processing. I can see that detailed control of this may be limited in certain multi-party cases or gateways with legacy where controlling the legacy might be an issue. >From my point of view this should be: 1. MUST NOT send unless agreed on. 2. MUST be able to receive and discard options not asked for. Are you fine with such a clarification? > > Similarly on page 25 the text has > > The RTP extensions to be used SHOULD be agreed upon, > > I think this needs to be a MUST. > > > > Page 27 > > I think it would be best to just remove the line > > This document [I-D.ietf-mmusic-msid] also defines, in section 4.1, > how to map unknown source packet stream SSRCs to MediaStreamTracks > and MediaStreams. > > as that is not key to this spec. The reason that is included is that it can be an important aspect of handling legacy interop where you don't require the media plane information to be included in the signalling message the signalling gateway creates. > > > Page 36 - 37 > > Section 12.2.2. > > So if I read this right, it says you MUST resolve SSRC collisions but > RFC 5576 has no way to do that. What are implementors supposed to do > ? Sorry, what are you referring to? Section 5 of RFC 5576 is very clear on what actions needs to happen after an SSRC collision has occurred. Basically, choose new SSRC, signal it and include previous-SSRC attribute to inform about your previous SSRC that you where forced to abandon due to collision. > > Even ignoring 5576 - it’s just not clear to me how one detects and > resolves SSRC collisions. Please see RFC 3550 Section 8.2 Thanks for your review. Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Mon May 12 04:49:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BFD01A069B for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 04:49:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MSGID_MULTIPLE_AT=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vrFyKdw1lszD for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 04:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.it-norr.com (smtp.it-norr.com [80.244.64.161]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC1781A067A for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 04:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([90.229.134.75]) by smtp.it-norr.com (Telecom3 SMTP service) with ASMTP id 201405121349130369 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 13:49:13 +0200 From: "Karl Stahl" To: References: <036a01cf6b5e$dfd686f0$9f8394d0$@gmail.com> <53702DCA.2060807@nteczone.com> In-Reply-To: <53702DCA.2060807@nteczone.com> Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 13:49:13 +0200 Message-ID: <014a01cf6dd8$31eccdc0$95c66940$@stahl@intertex.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac9th4LUxw1Xraf4R2WJPq0p/f013AAUJxOg Content-Language: sv Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/aiLvBl85i2Kp73uaIVWKHotDU40 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 11:49:27 -0000 The same for me. /Karl -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fr=C3=A5n: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] F=C3=B6r Christian = Groves Skickat: den 12 maj 2014 04:11 Till: rtcweb@ietf.org =C3=84mne: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 Likewise. Christian On 9/05/2014 6:15 PM, Roni Even wrote: > > I plan to attend remotely but based on the time difference will be=20 > also happy if recording will be avialble > > Roni Even > > *From:*rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Ted=20 > Hardie > *Sent:* 08 May, 2014 7:42 PM > *To:* Mary Barnes > *Cc:* rtcweb@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 > > On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Mary Barnes=20 > > = wrote: > > Is there remote participation information available? I could not > find anything in my email archives nor on the mailing list. > > Thanks, > > Mary. > > =E2=80=8BHi Mary, > > Thanks for raising the question; the answer may depend slightly on how = > many people are attending remotely. > > Anyone who is currently planning to attend remotely, can you let the=20 > chairs know? > > thanks, > > Ted > > > > On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Cullen Jennings > wrote: > > > Below is a the current agenda for the upcoming RTCWEB Interim > (essentially, we have the morning sessions for the three days May > 19, May 20, May 21 2014). If you have not filled in your > participation in the doodle poll, please do so at: > http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn. That helps us plan space and > food as well as have badges ready. > > Thanks > > Ted, Sean, Cullen > > > Interim Meeting RTCWEB May 2014 > http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn > > Day 1 > > Admin Trivia (15m) - Chairs > > RTP + Media (75m) Magnus Westerlund and Harald Alvestrand > draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-05 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-03 > > JSEP (2.5h) Eric Rescorla > draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06 > > > Day 2 > > Data Channel (4h) Randell Jesup > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-08 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-04 > > > Day 3 > > Security ( 2h ) Eric Rescorla > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09 > > ALPN ( 15m ) Martin Thomson > draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn-00 > > Consent Freshness ( 30m) Martin Thomson > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02 > > > Matters arising from webrtc meetings ( remaining time) > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From nobody Mon May 12 05:40:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BC561A0690 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 05:40:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7_2R5A4o0QRj for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 05:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f174.google.com (mail-wi0-f174.google.com [209.85.212.174]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92CBB1A068C for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 05:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f174.google.com with SMTP id r20so4389129wiv.1 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 05:39:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=opiwEa9kHM9uCIn3nJOtENmM1MJXaF+/SgzywovylWA=; b=muXMUIYcS/dciRhUHcA70/Xzep4BkAFdwafDgoL14YlSDPj1sG/cjus0VktEPnmgLB OgveXRzz4aw7L5DVlkBwE5vAbWptEcPDZyl/2+yNBm0lCk3sWuhW8MZLaeCJkbMv67IB eMMVOfVxH0ToQDMtabYSgMcQCfwXy6tEuEnn2NDUJ52IYpjiy8O6ur4j/EUvQ4iqhYrI CkY51Gql5pa9M2II/mGolFBm6zUjqSiuSlbMRSEwKhO3mr9OkeQjczlM95MQ8yVR91uP 8loPgrRSdnlfJt67vR4OLdIene0KLoGDxLZt07VOXcD8472gfAfwP0IuewY4X5ETtQAj 4M6w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlS4pFcHalGMtS9qdeD/C3GvwA3KaiZbNq9tuLo/ILn5cOO/Z58e3AuATNgf5yxpSbFvtyE X-Received: by 10.194.187.107 with SMTP id fr11mr1420001wjc.70.1399898398214; Mon, 12 May 2014 05:39:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.218.198 with HTTP; Mon, 12 May 2014 05:39:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [74.95.2.168] In-Reply-To: <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F69E8@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> References: <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F69E8@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 05:39:18 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bb03f60bf64dd04f9333e49 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/STubH0wJtxWQoskNb6Eq0ExXnmY Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 12:40:07 -0000 --047d7bb03f60bf64dd04f9333e49 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 2:03 AM, Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich) < uwe.rauschenbach@nsn.com> wrote: > Hi Eric, all, > > > > Is the consequence of =E2=80=9Calways trickle=E2=80=9D that ICE candidate= s have to be > added by non-trickling applications via SDP manipulation? > > I consider this indeed quite inconvenient for non-trickling applications. > So, my understanding was that we had agreed that no candidates would be available in the first CreateOffer() no matter how many candidates were in the pool. The intent of this message is to ask if that is useful. -Ekr A way out would be that the SDP always contains the candidates collected > so far (as currently defined in the JSEP snippet cited), > > or that a switch in the API allows an application to configure the > behavior when adding ICE candidates. > > > > Kind regards, > Uwe > > > > > > *From:* rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *ext Eric > Rescorla > *Sent:* Monday, May 12, 2014 8:52 AM > *To:* rtcweb@ietf.org > *Subject:* [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP > > > > See: https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/11 > > > > Section 3.4 reads: > > > > When a new ICE candidate is available, the ICE Agent will notify the > > application via a callback; these candidates will automatically be > > added to the local session description. When all candidates have > > been gathered, the callback will also be invoked to signal that the > > gathering process is complete. > > > > However, we agreed in London that we would do "always trickle", and > > that even if there were candidates available at the time when CreateOffer > > (because of candidate pooling) was called, they would not be included > > in the initial offer. Consider the following sequence of events. > > > > 0. pc =3D new RTCPeerConnection(); > > 1. pc.AddStream(stream); > > 2. pc.CreateOffer(); > > 3. CreateOffer callback fires with offer A, and you call > SetLocalDescription(); > > 4. onicecandidate fires with candidate X. > > 5. pc.CreateOffer() > > 6. CreateOffer callback fires with offer B. > > 7. onicecandidate fires with null. > > > > So, in London, I think we agreed that offer A would have no candidates. > > The above text implies that if you were to examine localdescription prior > > to step #5 or at step #7 it would contain candidate X, and probably that > offer B would > > also contain candidate X. > > > > Note that it's quite inconvenient for non-trickle applications to never > > have any candidates in the SDP, especially after gathering is completed > > at step #7. However it also seems kind of inconsistent to only update the > > candidates after SetLocal() has been called. > > > > -Ekr > > > --047d7bb03f60bf64dd04f9333e49 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 2:03 AM, Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich= ) <uwe.rauschenbach@nsn.com> wrote:

Hi Eric, all,

=C2=A0

Is the consequence of =E2= =80=9Calways trickle=E2=80=9D that ICE candidates have to be added by non-t= rickling applications via SDP manipulation?

I consider this indeed qu= ite inconvenient for non-trickling applications.


So, my understanding was that we had agreed that no can= didates would
be available in the first CreateOffer() no matter h= ow many candidates were
in the pool.

The intent of this message is to ask if that is useful.

-Ekr

A way out would be that t= he SDP always contains the candidates collected so far (as currently define= d in the JSEP snippet cited),

or that a switch in the A= PI allows an application to configure the behavior when adding ICE candidat= es.

=C2=A0

Kind regards,
Uwe

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: rtcweb [= mailto:rtcweb-= bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Eric Rescorla
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2014 8:52 AM
To: rtcweb@ietf= .org
Subject: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP=

=C2=A0

See: https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/11<= u>

=C2=A0

Section 3.4 reads:

=C2=A0

When a new ICE candidate is available, the ICE Agent= will notify the

application via a callback; these candidates will au= tomatically be

added to the local session description. When all can= didates have

been gathered, the callback will also be invoked to = signal that the

gathering process is complete.

=C2=A0

However, we agreed in London that we would do "= always trickle", and

that even if there were candidates available at the = time when CreateOffer

(because of candidate pooling) was called, they woul= d not be included

in the initial offer. Consider the following sequenc= e of events.

=C2=A0

0. pc =3D new RTCPeerConnection();

1. pc.AddStream(stream);

2. pc.CreateOffer();

3. CreateOffer callback fires with offer A, and you = call SetLocalDescription();

4. onicecandidate fires with candidate X.<= /u>

5. pc.CreateOffer()

6. CreateOffer callback fires with offer B.

7. onicecandidate fires with null.

=C2=A0

So, in London, I think we agreed that offer A would = have no candidates.

The above text implies that if you were to examine l= ocaldescription prior

to step #5 or at step #7 it would contain candidate = X, and probably that offer B would

also contain candidate X.

=C2=A0

Note that it's quite inconvenient for non-trickl= e applications to never

have any candidates in the SDP, especially after gat= hering is completed

at step #7. However it also seems kind of inconsiste= nt to only update the

candidates after SetLocal() has been called.<= u>

=C2=A0

-Ekr

=C2=A0


--047d7bb03f60bf64dd04f9333e49-- From nobody Mon May 12 06:51:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EF801A070E for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 06:51:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DRqZrhzLE7yV for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 06:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mork.alvestrand.no (mork.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8F671A06FA for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 06:51:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C2C17C0920 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 15:51:34 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Received: from mork.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mork.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F-H-4zxvQ+l1 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 15:51:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [172.28.249.97] (unknown [74.125.57.89]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2A19A7C00E1 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 15:51:32 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <5370D1E3.7040809@alvestrand.no> Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 15:51:31 +0200 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F69E8@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030406010100040407050603" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/mP8YAm_VqnCiAyZCuRs0AY_myiA Subject: Re: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 13:51:46 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030406010100040407050603 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 05/12/2014 02:39 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 2:03 AM, Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich) > > wrote: > > Hi Eric, all, > > > > Is the consequence of "always trickle" that ICE candidates have to > be added by non-trickling applications via SDP manipulation? > > I consider this indeed quite inconvenient for non-trickling > applications. > > > So, my understanding was that we had agreed that no candidates would > be available in the first CreateOffer() no matter how many candidates were > in the pool. > > The intent of this message is to ask if that is useful. If an application is written as 1) CreateOffer() 2) wait for the end of candidates callback 3) negotiate then I would think it might have trouble if all the candidates are present in the SDP, and therefore no callbacks were called. Solution: Always fire the end of candidates callback after calling the success callback, even if all candidates are in the SDP already. > > -Ekr > > A way out would be that the SDP always contains the candidates > collected so far (as currently defined in the JSEP snippet cited), > > or that a switch in the API allows an application to configure the > behavior when adding ICE candidates. > > > > Kind regards, > Uwe > > > > > > *From:*rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org > ] *On Behalf Of *ext Eric Rescorla > *Sent:* Monday, May 12, 2014 8:52 AM > *To:* rtcweb@ietf.org > *Subject:* [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP > > > > See: https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/11 > > > > Section 3.4 reads: > > > > When a new ICE candidate is available, the ICE Agent will notify the > > application via a callback; these candidates will automatically be > > added to the local session description. When all candidates have > > been gathered, the callback will also be invoked to signal that the > > gathering process is complete. > > > > However, we agreed in London that we would do "always trickle", and > > that even if there were candidates available at the time when > CreateOffer > > (because of candidate pooling) was called, they would not be included > > in the initial offer. Consider the following sequence of events. > > > > 0. pc = new RTCPeerConnection(); > > 1. pc.AddStream(stream); > > 2. pc.CreateOffer(); > > 3. CreateOffer callback fires with offer A, and you call > SetLocalDescription(); > > 4. onicecandidate fires with candidate X. > > 5. pc.CreateOffer() > > 6. CreateOffer callback fires with offer B. > > 7. onicecandidate fires with null. > > > > So, in London, I think we agreed that offer A would have no > candidates. > > The above text implies that if you were to examine > localdescription prior > > to step #5 or at step #7 it would contain candidate X, and > probably that offer B would > > also contain candidate X. > > > > Note that it's quite inconvenient for non-trickle applications to > never > > have any candidates in the SDP, especially after gathering is > completed > > at step #7. However it also seems kind of inconsistent to only > update the > > candidates after SetLocal() has been called. > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb -- Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. --------------030406010100040407050603 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 05/12/2014 02:39 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:



On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 2:03 AM, Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich) <uwe.rauschenbach@nsn.com> wrote:

Hi Eric, all,

 

Is the consequence of “always trickle” that ICE candidates have to be added by non-trickling applications via SDP manipulation?

I consider this indeed quite inconvenient for non-trickling applications.


So, my understanding was that we had agreed that no candidates would
be available in the first CreateOffer() no matter how many candidates were
in the pool.

The intent of this message is to ask if that is useful.

If an application is written as

1) CreateOffer()
2) wait for the end of candidates callback
3) negotiate

then I would think it might have trouble if all the candidates are present in the SDP, and therefore no callbacks were called.
Solution: Always fire the end of candidates callback after calling the success callback, even if all candidates are in the SDP already.



-Ekr

A way out would be that the SDP always contains the candidates collected so far (as currently defined in the JSEP snippet cited),

or that a switch in the API allows an application to configure the behavior when adding ICE candidates.

 

Kind regards,
Uwe

 

 

From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Eric Rescorla
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2014 8:52 AM
To: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP

 

See: https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/11

 

Section 3.4 reads:

 

When a new ICE candidate is available, the ICE Agent will notify the

application via a callback; these candidates will automatically be

added to the local session description. When all candidates have

been gathered, the callback will also be invoked to signal that the

gathering process is complete.

 

However, we agreed in London that we would do "always trickle", and

that even if there were candidates available at the time when CreateOffer

(because of candidate pooling) was called, they would not be included

in the initial offer. Consider the following sequence of events.

 

0. pc = new RTCPeerConnection();

1. pc.AddStream(stream);

2. pc.CreateOffer();

3. CreateOffer callback fires with offer A, and you call SetLocalDescription();

4. onicecandidate fires with candidate X.

5. pc.CreateOffer()

6. CreateOffer callback fires with offer B.

7. onicecandidate fires with null.

 

So, in London, I think we agreed that offer A would have no candidates.

The above text implies that if you were to examine localdescription prior

to step #5 or at step #7 it would contain candidate X, and probably that offer B would

also contain candidate X.

 

Note that it's quite inconvenient for non-trickle applications to never

have any candidates in the SDP, especially after gathering is completed

at step #7. However it also seems kind of inconsistent to only update the

candidates after SetLocal() has been called.

 

-Ekr

 




_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb



-- 
Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark.
--------------030406010100040407050603-- From nobody Mon May 12 07:43:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E730C1A0721; Mon, 12 May 2014 07:43:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4PhRm6imbUna; Mon, 12 May 2014 07:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x22a.google.com (mail-we0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::22a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45FDF1A0711; Mon, 12 May 2014 07:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f170.google.com with SMTP id u57so7020985wes.15 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 07:43:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=yFVApFbnItYiNxn6IBgavR7NEx3eG42LAKjyLJJj26o=; b=TaIyV8RzxF9sDHA6xraI/DSqP8oVzVocSGOtoncgJOv6CbyqUg9rhXHUj2BrOZJkzG N4t6TLZDTNj4hFhmJQa6eQ41ai3Hy0O12U+WxNw/ewWptgDnuYtcU1KWzxCJ0RZbLQWM HP7slI3qNVIFD6v5F3eo7E9DrS2oEdrSUrb+K2BUNZGOZQmaVgIw/8nNfjm4MAKa0y9i jlY9mLZ2vAhNojcYGmaePxBN283nONLIolVEcaYWJDYPtCQgK+6IhT8+Mhja4Mv5/a5T b39K5eLMWW509gRtKKKnt332zqFSavkaw3fSgD96hwsYL1tAi4Hu0Li6M7Pe4KVhNm9a ymog== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.77.165 with SMTP id t5mr16314207wiw.38.1399905810816; Mon, 12 May 2014 07:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.235.163 with HTTP; Mon, 12 May 2014 07:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.235.163 with HTTP; Mon, 12 May 2014 07:43:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D2F672A@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D2F672A@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 07:43:30 -0700 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Christer Holmberg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043c085a92a62a04f934f818 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/-6AgIniYEryzCFW19hzuzzT2yfE Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org, mmusic WG Subject: Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] m-line recycling X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 14:43:40 -0000 --f46d043c085a92a62a04f934f818 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, some words about being compatible and all that entails are required if we intend to stipulate it being reused. Either that or we can say MAY. The need for a strong definition diminishes then. On May 11, 2014 11:54 PM, "Christer Holmberg" < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi, > > > > I don=E2=80=99t think it should be a MUST =E2=80=93 at least not only bas= ed on the media > type. Because, there may be other properties than the media type associat= ed > with the =E2=80=9Cm=3D=E2=80=9D line, why one does not want to use it for= the specific MST. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > > > > > *From:* mmusic [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Eric > Rescorla > *Sent:* 12. toukokuuta 2014 7:50 > *To:* mmusic WG; rtcweb@ietf.org > *Subject:* [MMUSIC] m-line recycling > > > > The JSEP spec specifies m-line recycling: > > > > > > > > o If any MediaStreamTracks have been added, and there exist m=3D > > sections of the appropriate media type with no associated > > MediaStreamTracks (i.e. as described in the preceding paragraph), > > those m=3D sections MUST be recycled by adding the new > > MediaStreamTrack to the m=3D section. This is done by adding the > > necessary "a=3Dmsid", "a=3Dssrc", and "a=3Dssrc-group" lines to the > > recycled m=3D section, and removing the "a=3Drecvonly" attribute. > > Based on the minutes from IETF 89, we were going to take this to mmusic. > > http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-89-rtcweb?useMonospaceFo= nt=3Dtrue > > > > Thoughts? > > -Ekr > > > > https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/21 > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > --f46d043c085a92a62a04f934f818 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Yes, some words about being compatible and all that entails = are required if we intend to stipulate it being reused. Either that or we c= an say MAY. The need for a strong definition diminishes then.

On May 11, 2014 11:54 PM, "Christer Holmber= g" <christer.holm= berg@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi,<= /p>

=C2=A0

I don=E2=80=99t think it = should be a MUST =E2=80=93 at least not only based on the media type. Becau= se, there may be other properties than the media type associated with the =E2=80=9Cm=3D=E2=80=9D line, why one does not want to use it for the speci= fic MST.

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: mmusic [= mailto:mmusic-= bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rescorla
Sent: 12. toukokuuta 2014 7:50
To: mmusic WG; = rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: [MMUSIC] m-line recycling

=C2=A0

The JSEP spec specifies m-line recycling:=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0
=C2=A0
 o=C2=A0 If any MediaStreamTracks have been added, and there exi=
st m=3D
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 sections of the appropriate media=
 type with no associated
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 MediaStreamTracks (i.e. as descri=
bed in the preceding paragraph),
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 those m=3D sections MUST be recyc=
led by adding the new
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 MediaStreamTrack to the m=3D sect=
ion.=C2=A0 This is done by adding the
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 necessary "a=3Dmsid", &=
quot;a=3Dssrc", and "a=3Dssrc-group" lines to the<=
/u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 recycled m=3D section, and removi=
ng the "a=3Drecvonly" attribute.
Based=C2=A0o=
n the minutes from IETF 89, we were going to take this to mmusic.=

http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf=
-89-rtcweb?useMonospaceFont=3Dtrue


=C2=A0
Thoughts?<=
u>
-Ekr

=C2=A0


_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

--f46d043c085a92a62a04f934f818-- From nobody Mon May 12 08:18:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE8FD1A0726 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 08:18:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YR1IwCVO6k7N for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 08:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-f182.google.com (mail-we0-f182.google.com [74.125.82.182]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26A131A0713 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 08:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f182.google.com with SMTP id t60so7049396wes.13 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 08:17:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=IpR6dyE5CK7vOCe7rk55hOOOj8GchrM1JqiFaHVJd9U=; b=jaT9ZyvEDbsb4ugJRLAC60brun5d6FsKElag+zDW49bv+9iHCn0nGP5K5SmK+XZTxg CEToenXd9tIKNOkquxalPfjEKyv+DWGeJlmBlF712DYB/g4mVAEWQvpgeIRsdAF6LpC4 UQqiHKWgmsRVZdMU7LiGpc9ErZaNwjuvYEPvGoDJ9JVPoRwQ/AtHCnJNWiUfyuaut6Q8 yEQFx5Ip5vCiY1z1oNJLp5CUmFARijv7KzkbuGqeP+cqWe+rwa0t5mFcZs/iPbkuox+x jGej1lv+zW1OToCZO0VyTSlhLxNMs9+iWVXcnLxsqP5bfYN2EFIhQtp/qfwyzfs7WOx2 z0TA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlYMZYokObfd1Tx992IwbK4moId482fjfhZ+ZahFzwX+EdoOuJwSxB7eqfyLLgaNp6QPnC4 X-Received: by 10.194.62.176 with SMTP id z16mr2117604wjr.76.1399907873674; Mon, 12 May 2014 08:17:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.218.198 with HTTP; Mon, 12 May 2014 08:17:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [74.95.2.168] In-Reply-To: <5370D1E3.7040809@alvestrand.no> References: <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F69E8@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> <5370D1E3.7040809@alvestrand.no> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 08:17:13 -0700 Message-ID: To: Harald Alvestrand Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7ba979c28799b004f93573e0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/UMk2uLrPm1-WpOEtz55lmI8N_Nw Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 15:18:03 -0000 --047d7ba979c28799b004f93573e0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 6:51 AM, Harald Alvestrand wr= ote: > On 05/12/2014 02:39 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 2:03 AM, Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich) < > uwe.rauschenbach@nsn.com> wrote: > >> Hi Eric, all, >> >> >> >> Is the consequence of =E2=80=9Calways trickle=E2=80=9D that ICE candidat= es have to be >> added by non-trickling applications via SDP manipulation? >> >> I consider this indeed quite inconvenient for non-trickling applications= . >> > > So, my understanding was that we had agreed that no candidates would > be available in the first CreateOffer() no matter how many candidates wer= e > in the pool. > > The intent of this message is to ask if that is useful. > > > If an application is written as > > 1) CreateOffer() > 2) wait for the end of candidates callback > 3) negotiate > > then I would think it might have trouble if all the candidates are presen= t > in the SDP, and therefore no callbacks were called. > Solution: Always fire the end of candidates callback after calling the > success callback, even if all candidates are in the SDP already. > So you mean: 1. CreateOffer() 2. success callback fires. 3. SetLocal() 4. onicecandidate(...) 5. onicecandidate(null) Then later (w/ no changes to the MSTs) 6. CreateOffer() 7. success callback fires 8. SetLocal (????) 9. onicecandidate(null) I believe this would be a change to the W3C API (not that this is necessarily bad) -Ekr > > -Ekr > > A way out would be that the SDP always contains the candidates >> collected so far (as currently defined in the JSEP snippet cited), >> >> or that a switch in the API allows an application to configure the >> behavior when adding ICE candidates. >> >> >> >> Kind regards, >> Uwe >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *ext Eric >> Rescorla >> *Sent:* Monday, May 12, 2014 8:52 AM >> *To:* rtcweb@ietf.org >> *Subject:* [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP >> >> >> >> See: https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/11 >> >> >> >> Section 3.4 reads: >> >> >> >> When a new ICE candidate is available, the ICE Agent will notify the >> >> application via a callback; these candidates will automatically be >> >> added to the local session description. When all candidates have >> >> been gathered, the callback will also be invoked to signal that the >> >> gathering process is complete. >> >> >> >> However, we agreed in London that we would do "always trickle", and >> >> that even if there were candidates available at the time when CreateOffe= r >> >> (because of candidate pooling) was called, they would not be included >> >> in the initial offer. Consider the following sequence of events. >> >> >> >> 0. pc =3D new RTCPeerConnection(); >> >> 1. pc.AddStream(stream); >> >> 2. pc.CreateOffer(); >> >> 3. CreateOffer callback fires with offer A, and you call >> SetLocalDescription(); >> >> 4. onicecandidate fires with candidate X. >> >> 5. pc.CreateOffer() >> >> 6. CreateOffer callback fires with offer B. >> >> 7. onicecandidate fires with null. >> >> >> >> So, in London, I think we agreed that offer A would have no candidates. >> >> The above text implies that if you were to examine localdescription prio= r >> >> to step #5 or at step #7 it would contain candidate X, and probably that >> offer B would >> >> also contain candidate X. >> >> >> >> Note that it's quite inconvenient for non-trickle applications to never >> >> have any candidates in the SDP, especially after gathering is completed >> >> at step #7. However it also seems kind of inconsistent to only update th= e >> >> candidates after SetLocal() has been called. >> >> >> >> -Ekr >> >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing listrtcweb@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/r= tcweb > > > > -- > Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > --047d7ba979c28799b004f93573e0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 6:51 AM, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alve= strand.no> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
On 05/12/2014 02:39 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:



On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 2:03 AM, Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich) <uwe.rauschenbach@n= sn.com> wrote:

Hi Eric, all,

=C2=A0<= /span>

Is the consequence of =E2=80=9Calways trickle=E2=80=9D t= hat ICE candidates have to be added by non-trickling applications via SDP manipulation?

I consider this indeed quite inconvenient for non-trickling applications.


So, my understanding was that we had agreed that no candidates would
be available in the first CreateOffer() no matter how many candidates were
in the pool.

The intent of this message is to ask if that is useful.

If an application is written as

1) CreateOffer()
2) wait for the end of candidates callback
3) negotiate

then I would think it might have trouble if all the candidates are present in the SDP, and therefore no callbacks were called.
Solution: Always fire the end of candidates callback after calling the success callback, even if all candidates are in the SDP already.

So you mean:

1= . CreateOffer()
2. success callback fires.
3. SetLocal(= )
4. onicecandidate(...)
5. onicecandidate(null)

Then later (w/ no changes to the MSTs)

=
6. CreateOffer()
7. success callback fires
8. SetL= ocal (????)
9. onicecandidate(null)

I believe this would = be a change to the W3C API (not that this is necessarily bad)
-Ekr

=C2=A0

-Ekr

A way out would be that the SDP always contains the candidates collected so far (as currently defined in the JSEP snippet cited),

or that a switch in the API allows an application to configure the behavior when adding ICE candidates.

=C2=A0

Kind regards,
Uwe

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From:<= /b> rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Eric Rescorla
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2014 8:52 AM
To: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP

=C2=A0

See: https://github.com/rtc= web-wg/jsep/issues/11

=C2=A0

Section 3.4 reads:

=C2=A0

When a new ICE candidate is available, the ICE Agent will notify the

application via a callback; these candidates will automatically be

added to the local session description. When all candidates have

been gathered, the callback will also be invoked to signal that the

gathering process is complete.

=C2=A0

However, we agreed in London that we would do "always trickle", and

that even if there were candidates available at the time when CreateOffer

(because of candidate pooling) was called, they would not be included

in the initial offer. Consider the following sequence of events.

=C2=A0

0. pc =3D new RTCPeerConnection();

1. pc.AddStream(stream);

2. pc.CreateOffer();

3. CreateOffer callback fires with offer A, and you call SetLocalDescription();

4. onicecandidate fires with candidate X.

5. pc.CreateOffer()

6. CreateOffer callback fires with offer B.

7. onicecandidate fires with null.

=C2=A0

So, in London, I think we agreed that offer A would have no candidates.

The above text implies that if you were to examine localdescription prior

to step #5 or at step #7 it would contain candidate X, and probably that offer B would

also contain candidate X.

=C2=A0

Note that it's qui= te inconvenient for non-trickle applications to never

have any candidates in the SDP, especially after gathering is completed

at step #7. However it also seems kind of inconsistent to only update the

candidates after SetLocal() has been called.

=C2=A0

-Ekr

=C2=A0




_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb



--=20
Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark.

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


--047d7ba979c28799b004f93573e0-- From nobody Mon May 12 09:14:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABBDE1A033E for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 09:14:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vte9LdLQ2b8o for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 09:14:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mork.alvestrand.no (mork.alvestrand.no [IPv6:2001:700:1:2::117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 090831A0743 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 09:14:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3903A7C3598; Mon, 12 May 2014 18:14:05 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Received: from mork.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mork.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OEX4I7azVxYW; Mon, 12 May 2014 18:14:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hta-hippo.lul.corp.google.com (unknown [IPv6:2620:0:1043:1:7646:a0ff:fe90:e2bb]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 479407C3582; Mon, 12 May 2014 18:14:03 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <5370F349.7050006@alvestrand.no> Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 18:14:01 +0200 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Rescorla References: <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F69E8@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> <5370D1E3.7040809@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060805070600050203030001" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/LD0KhvdECgL0K_JaZZsAqj-IwMg Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 16:14:25 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060805070600050203030001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 05/12/2014 05:17 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 6:51 AM, Harald Alvestrand > > wrote: > > On 05/12/2014 02:39 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >> >> >> On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 2:03 AM, Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - >> DE/Munich) > > wrote: >> >> Hi Eric, all, >> >> Is the consequence of “always trickle†that ICE candidates >> have to be added by non-trickling applications via SDP >> manipulation? >> >> I consider this indeed quite inconvenient for non-trickling >> applications. >> >> >> So, my understanding was that we had agreed that no candidates would >> be available in the first CreateOffer() no matter how many >> candidates were >> in the pool. >> >> The intent of this message is to ask if that is useful. > > If an application is written as > > 1) CreateOffer() > 2) wait for the end of candidates callback > 3) negotiate > > then I would think it might have trouble if all the candidates are > present in the SDP, and therefore no callbacks were called. > Solution: Always fire the end of candidates callback after calling > the success callback, even if all candidates are in the SDP already. > > > So you mean: > > 1. CreateOffer() > 2. success callback fires. > 3. SetLocal() > 4. onicecandidate(...) > 5. onicecandidate(null) > > Then later (w/ no changes to the MSTs) > > 6. CreateOffer() > 7. success callback fires > 8. SetLocal (????) > 9. onicecandidate(null) > > I believe this would be a change to the W3C API (not that this is > necessarily bad) Something like that, yes. Or in more detail, for a call requiring 2 candidates: 1. CreateOffer() 2. success callback fires (1 candidate present) 3. SetLocal() 4. onicecandidate(...) 5. onicecandidate(null) Then later (w/ no changes to the MSTs) 6. CreateOffer() 7. success callback fires (2 candidates present) 8. SetLocal () 9. onicecandidate(null) Then still later (after having done something that requires a 3rd candidate): 10. CreateOffer() 11. successCallback fires (2 candidates present) 12. SetLocal() 13. onicecandidate(...) 14. onicecandidate(null) If we don't have the null onicecandidate in case 2 (step 9), it gets hard to support case 3 (step 12-14). > > -Ekr > > >> >> -Ekr >> >> A way out would be that the SDP always contains the >> candidates collected so far (as currently defined in the JSEP >> snippet cited), >> >> or that a switch in the API allows an application to >> configure the behavior when adding ICE candidates. >> >> Kind regards, >> Uwe >> >> *From:*rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org >> ] *On Behalf Of *ext Eric >> Rescorla >> *Sent:* Monday, May 12, 2014 8:52 AM >> *To:* rtcweb@ietf.org >> *Subject:* [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP >> >> See: https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/11 >> >> Section 3.4 reads: >> >> When a new ICE candidate is available, the ICE Agent will >> notify the >> >> application via a callback; these candidates will >> automatically be >> >> added to the local session description. When all candidates have >> >> been gathered, the callback will also be invoked to signal >> that the >> >> gathering process is complete. >> >> However, we agreed in London that we would do "always >> trickle", and >> >> that even if there were candidates available at the time when >> CreateOffer >> >> (because of candidate pooling) was called, they would not be >> included >> >> in the initial offer. Consider the following sequence of events. >> >> 0. pc = new RTCPeerConnection(); >> >> 1. pc.AddStream(stream); >> >> 2. pc.CreateOffer(); >> >> 3. CreateOffer callback fires with offer A, and you call >> SetLocalDescription(); >> >> 4. onicecandidate fires with candidate X. >> >> 5. pc.CreateOffer() >> >> 6. CreateOffer callback fires with offer B. >> >> 7. onicecandidate fires with null. >> >> So, in London, I think we agreed that offer A would have no >> candidates. >> >> The above text implies that if you were to examine >> localdescription prior >> >> to step #5 or at step #7 it would contain candidate X, and >> probably that offer B would >> >> also contain candidate X. >> >> Note that it's quite inconvenient for non-trickle >> applications to never >> >> have any candidates in the SDP, especially after gathering is >> completed >> >> at step #7. However it also seems kind of inconsistent to >> only update the >> >> candidates after SetLocal() has been called. >> >> -Ekr >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > -- > Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > --------------060805070600050203030001 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 05/12/2014 05:17 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:



On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 6:51 AM, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote:
On 05/12/2014 02:39 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:



On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 2:03 AM, Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich) <uwe.rauschenbach@nsn.com> wrote:

Hi Eric, all,

 

Is the consequence of “always trickle†that ICE candidates have to be added by non-trickling applications via SDP manipulation?

I consider this indeed quite inconvenient for non-trickling applications.


So, my understanding was that we had agreed that no candidates would
be available in the first CreateOffer() no matter how many candidates were
in the pool.

The intent of this message is to ask if that is useful.

If an application is written as

1) CreateOffer()
2) wait for the end of candidates callback
3) negotiate

then I would think it might have trouble if all the candidates are present in the SDP, and therefore no callbacks were called.
Solution: Always fire the end of candidates callback after calling the success callback, even if all candidates are in the SDP already.

So you mean:

1. CreateOffer()
2. success callback fires.
3. SetLocal()
4. onicecandidate(...)
5. onicecandidate(null)

Then later (w/ no changes to the MSTs)

6. CreateOffer()
7. success callback fires
8. SetLocal (????)
9. onicecandidate(null)

I believe this would be a change to the W3C API (not that this is necessarily bad)

Something like that, yes. Or in more detail, for a call requiring 2 candidates:

1. CreateOffer()
2. success callback fires (1 candidate present)
3. SetLocal()
4. onicecandidate(...)
5. onicecandidate(null)

Then later (w/ no changes to the MSTs)

6. CreateOffer()
7. success callback fires (2 candidates present)
8. SetLocal ()
9. onicecandidate(null)

Then still later (after having done something that requires a 3rd candidate):

10. CreateOffer()
11. successCallback fires (2 candidates present)
12. SetLocal()
13. onicecandidate(...)
14. onicecandidate(null)

If we don't have the null onicecandidate in case 2 (step 9), it gets hard to support case 3 (step 12-14).


-Ekr

 

-Ekr

A way out would be that the SDP always contains the candidates collected so far (as currently defined in the JSEP snippet cited),

or that a switch in the API allows an application to configure the behavior when adding ICE candidates.

 

Kind regards,
Uwe

 

 

From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Eric Rescorla
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2014 8:52 AM
To: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP

 

See: https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/11

 

Section 3.4 reads:

 

When a new ICE candidate is available, the ICE Agent will notify the

application via a callback; these candidates will automatically be

added to the local session description. When all candidates have

been gathered, the callback will also be invoked to signal that the

gathering process is complete.

 

However, we agreed in London that we would do "always trickle", and

that even if there were candidates available at the time when CreateOffer

(because of candidate pooling) was called, they would not be included

in the initial offer. Consider the following sequence of events.

 

0. pc = new RTCPeerConnection();

1. pc.AddStream(stream);

2. pc.CreateOffer();

3. CreateOffer callback fires with offer A, and you call SetLocalDescription();

4. onicecandidate fires with candidate X.

5. pc.CreateOffer()

6. CreateOffer callback fires with offer B.

7. onicecandidate fires with null.

 

So, in London, I think we agreed that offer A would have no candidates.

The above text implies that if you were to examine localdescription prior

to step #5 or at step #7 it would contain candidate X, and probably that offer B would

also contain candidate X.

 

Note that it's quite inconvenient for non-trickle applications to never

have any candidates in the SDP, especially after gathering is completed

at step #7. However it also seems kind of inconsistent to only update the

candidates after SetLocal() has been called.

 

-Ekr

 




_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb



-- 
Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark.

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb



--------------060805070600050203030001-- From nobody Mon May 12 09:46:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B7251A072A for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 09:46:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vP6IT7R98hbO for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 09:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x22e.google.com (mail-ig0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17ED01A072E for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 09:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-f174.google.com with SMTP id h3so4062314igd.1 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 09:45:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=3VeGL51cgk9z7rgp+iwU4a4Qyli1pS7gKwREcxp/CQw=; b=s1e869ykr+47fcJ74dVvEllgPvtUPlJPXlWVyB36Z9SjlQG5HrfHnlXVkLgQ3UGpTc TPYXvYXpbKvaQU6MFFVQdEW9Uoy1J2E/SvtrXthZn2EW12MyT4rDRZeHD9bvssprBCfA m6NLOnyt+TxBox3wGWSZu8UwY23pXieHLSrk6FKEA3FYQ6eSAa5JL4C1UyeMh91bvetR H9dlqVgOAfm/cd2cxY54QmcKatH3mdYXKBF3aYUw+YVRKv6R/3kDGaQeqQ0f0qbIJ0q2 pwJusITCmdSeZu71cqzBTzy3FYDmfW5bj1e7UUvEBZ5okhtlO9OixLRg13tFtcJoesHS yg/Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.22.37 with SMTP id a5mr46502346igf.30.1399913154975; Mon, 12 May 2014 09:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.200.204 with HTTP; Mon, 12 May 2014 09:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 09:45:54 -0700 Message-ID: From: Ted Hardie To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b10c99151bcc704f936aed9 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/YJ_WgQdbe0XwLkeaGOlCrUa-wsQ Subject: [rtcweb] Update on remote participation for the interim X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 16:46:05 -0000 --047d7b10c99151bcc704f936aed9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 The folks on site have confirmed that there are microphones and a video conferencing system in the room. One oddity is that the video conferencing is an older unit that is not currently directly capable of running Hangouts, but for which there is a bridge. My current theory is: Bridge the system in the room to hangouts. Have a laptop in the room join the hangout. Record the hangout. Invite those who wish to attend remotely via email once the hangout has been created. (I do not believe you will need to have Google credentials to attend). End this hangout at each day's shift from IETF to W3C , starting a new hangout for the W3C part of the day when the group reconvenes. This is similar to what we did in Stockholm, though not exactly the same. Does anyone have any heartburn with this approach? Ted --047d7b10c99151bcc704f936aed9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The folks on site have confirmed that there are microphones and a vi= deo conferencing system in the room.=C2=A0 One oddity is that the video con= ferencing is an older unit that is not currently directly capable of runnin= g Hangouts, but for which there is a bridge.=C2=A0 My current theory is:
= Bridge the system in the room to hangouts.=C2=A0 Have a laptop in the room = join the hangout.=C2=A0 Record the hangout.=C2=A0 Invite those who wish to = attend remotely via email once the hangout has been created.=C2=A0 (I do no= t believe you will need to have Google credentials to attend).=C2=A0 End th= is hangout at each day's shift from IETF to W3C , starting a new hangout for the W3C part of the day when= the group reconvenes.

This is similar to what we did in Stockholm, though not exactly the sam= e.=C2=A0

Does anyone have any heartburn with this approach?

Ted
--047d7b10c99151bcc704f936aed9-- From nobody Mon May 12 10:15:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D41D11A074E for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 10:15:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b6qEbGJ3eQ7E for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 10:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x22d.google.com (mail-wg0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::22d]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37DC41A0733 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 10:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f45.google.com with SMTP id m15so7043607wgh.28 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 10:15:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=EiM4nyyXCUhxoBODshfqZq85oMZT1IKoCXyQvR9wK7Y=; b=CE3k+rxq5ihFOqgCkFxX0F9OBa+8v/1UIaoWQfdE+SVYmPwCeNqnaY99S1nfm4WT/v nkzHrU9gYf/z1jhDt1RLwY+gGASCh3YRT8DYsyAjtwjwG2NZMIQ3WLCvNDCk6Rlforf+ EEpYc0RofIJ+eRveYU1UynqLXzORhmb+GlHZeEiJ7RwLw1t9bTs8qU3FSgIK5tTxpxNW QHeCRB/Ut+OACwR4HB8RsHWdKxz5i/YZ+Pdao1tOSOFTw6qN+yUVn1q2wDtVsWIV+wyh twjg2uVxMBhuz/zGdsu923JNiWf/0k29Y2JdvIiqz6wE0NZ3oh9BaFGYJ3SlzJOzgr32 ndeA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.36.35 with SMTP id n3mr4258490wij.23.1399914943751; Mon, 12 May 2014 10:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.235.163 with HTTP; Mon, 12 May 2014 10:15:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 10:15:43 -0700 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Eric Rescorla Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/wJ0sx-h7QGmoJ_Ifc848zmPGu6U Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , "public-webrtc@w3.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Default candidate pool size X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 17:15:52 -0000 On 11 May 2014 17:18, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > My personal opinion is that candidate pooling is useful here and we > should probably leave the default in the hands of the browser. I > could live with 0 however. I tend to agree. The selection of a default seems like a good opportunity for browsers to optimize. For instance, a mobile device might choose to defer gathering until it knows that it needs them; whereas a device with a good source of power might prefer the latency benefits associated with early gathering. No point in us specifying this. From nobody Mon May 12 11:59:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E06041A076A for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 11:59:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jqw4aUycRfa9 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 11:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x229.google.com (mail-we0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::229]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60F241A0728 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 11:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f169.google.com with SMTP id u56so7414876wes.28 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 11:59:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=UIuTu7eN2pRf4AuZrBGfZxum0xpmzKj96NtVgW2cneI=; b=zyGvBTKjFclDa9HpC1o5xAjTcGyNo5IOwK5esl4wgjQz3A7brA5Zmh/7uM2G5BH6TY HEhaJcR+pYtTk3Htl1r9c44mNwhD3IJGf5CXVsfQIzV2rjbfiZwwuTTIQD+qCU+5LJ6v 0AXOeqxc4lG3YbTJ8RkruDrv6XgrvbLYnYb9NW6hJ5wuERtCJ4GHWxXaN/T70YhDbArx BAReb+esdDfZ+h+Q6+ULkzp6IqR/LDCpVocIIrgiJ/KgaUTHDbsX849TuNQdhtHPWasW gSr3NWAIpo6meD3vEYAfGlMrMkjJKa7tE0pqu2LFr0KjQlYbICyhS4cTtuAonKEwQr0i Nhsg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.202.229 with SMTP id kl5mr1534wjc.86.1399921168907; Mon, 12 May 2014 11:59:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.235.163 with HTTP; Mon, 12 May 2014 11:59:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5370F349.7050006@alvestrand.no> References: <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F69E8@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> <5370D1E3.7040809@alvestrand.no> <5370F349.7050006@alvestrand.no> Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 11:59:28 -0700 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Harald Alvestrand Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/juRiNyv_l_knbpasU6tz1wMTB9Q Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 18:59:38 -0000 Why not: 1. pc.createOffer(...) 2. success callback fires (0 candidates) 3. pc.setLocalDescription(offer) 4. onicecandidate fires some number of times 5. onicecandidate fires with a null candidate 6. send pc.localDescription (as opposed to the original offer) No need to run multiple rounds of createOffer or anything nasty like that. Note that we don't have an onicegatheringstatechange event that would let us monitor that state more directly, but the actual code cost is identical either way. On 12 May 2014 09:14, Harald Alvestrand wrote: > On 05/12/2014 05:17 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 6:51 AM, Harald Alvestrand > wrote: >> >> On 05/12/2014 02:39 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 2:03 AM, Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich) >> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Eric, all, >>> >>> >>> >>> Is the consequence of =E2=80=9Calways trickle=E2=80=9D that ICE candida= tes have to be >>> added by non-trickling applications via SDP manipulation? >>> >>> I consider this indeed quite inconvenient for non-trickling application= s. >> >> >> So, my understanding was that we had agreed that no candidates would >> be available in the first CreateOffer() no matter how many candidates we= re >> in the pool. >> >> The intent of this message is to ask if that is useful. >> >> >> If an application is written as >> >> 1) CreateOffer() >> 2) wait for the end of candidates callback >> 3) negotiate >> >> then I would think it might have trouble if all the candidates are prese= nt >> in the SDP, and therefore no callbacks were called. >> Solution: Always fire the end of candidates callback after calling the >> success callback, even if all candidates are in the SDP already. > > > So you mean: > > 1. CreateOffer() > 2. success callback fires. > 3. SetLocal() > 4. onicecandidate(...) > 5. onicecandidate(null) > > Then later (w/ no changes to the MSTs) > > 6. CreateOffer() > 7. success callback fires > 8. SetLocal (????) > 9. onicecandidate(null) > > I believe this would be a change to the W3C API (not that this is > necessarily bad) > > > Something like that, yes. Or in more detail, for a call requiring 2 > candidates: > > 1. CreateOffer() > 2. success callback fires (1 candidate present) > 3. SetLocal() > 4. onicecandidate(...) > 5. onicecandidate(null) > > Then later (w/ no changes to the MSTs) > > 6. CreateOffer() > 7. success callback fires (2 candidates present) > 8. SetLocal () > 9. onicecandidate(null) > > Then still later (after having done something that requires a 3rd > candidate): > > 10. CreateOffer() > 11. successCallback fires (2 candidates present) > 12. SetLocal() > 13. onicecandidate(...) > 14. onicecandidate(null) > > If we don't have the null onicecandidate in case 2 (step 9), it gets hard= to > support case 3 (step 12-14). > > > -Ekr > >> >> >> >> -Ekr >> >>> A way out would be that the SDP always contains the candidates collecte= d >>> so far (as currently defined in the JSEP snippet cited), >>> >>> or that a switch in the API allows an application to configure the >>> behavior when adding ICE candidates. >>> >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> Uwe >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Eric >>> Rescorla >>> Sent: Monday, May 12, 2014 8:52 AM >>> To: rtcweb@ietf.org >>> Subject: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP >>> >>> >>> >>> See: https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/11 >>> >>> >>> >>> Section 3.4 reads: >>> >>> >>> >>> When a new ICE candidate is available, the ICE Agent will notify the >>> >>> application via a callback; these candidates will automatically be >>> >>> added to the local session description. When all candidates have >>> >>> been gathered, the callback will also be invoked to signal that the >>> >>> gathering process is complete. >>> >>> >>> >>> However, we agreed in London that we would do "always trickle", and >>> >>> that even if there were candidates available at the time when CreateOff= er >>> >>> (because of candidate pooling) was called, they would not be included >>> >>> in the initial offer. Consider the following sequence of events. >>> >>> >>> >>> 0. pc =3D new RTCPeerConnection(); >>> >>> 1. pc.AddStream(stream); >>> >>> 2. pc.CreateOffer(); >>> >>> 3. CreateOffer callback fires with offer A, and you call >>> SetLocalDescription(); >>> >>> 4. onicecandidate fires with candidate X. >>> >>> 5. pc.CreateOffer() >>> >>> 6. CreateOffer callback fires with offer B. >>> >>> 7. onicecandidate fires with null. >>> >>> >>> >>> So, in London, I think we agreed that offer A would have no candidates. >>> >>> The above text implies that if you were to examine localdescription pri= or >>> >>> to step #5 or at step #7 it would contain candidate X, and probably tha= t >>> offer B would >>> >>> also contain candidate X. >>> >>> >>> >>> Note that it's quite inconvenient for non-trickle applications to never >>> >>> have any candidates in the SDP, especially after gathering is completed >>> >>> at step #7. However it also seems kind of inconsistent to only update t= he >>> >>> candidates after SetLocal() has been called. >>> >>> >>> >>> -Ekr >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> >> >> >> -- >> Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > From nobody Mon May 12 20:45:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 893661A0823 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 20:44:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1mQtaV9Bygut for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 20:44:55 -0700 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+0200 From: "Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: ext Eric Rescorla Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP Thread-Index: AQHPbXQT9TjLMQgt4EuqU8TdRTYSi5s8fWuAgABEhwCAAR2aIA== Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 03:44:46 +0000 Message-ID: <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F807F@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> References: <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F69E8@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.159.42.109] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F807FDEMUMBX005nsnintr_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-purgate-type: clean X-purgate-Ad: Categorized by eleven eXpurgate (R) http://www.eleven.de X-purgate: clean X-purgate: This mail is considered clean (visit http://www.eleven.de for further information) X-purgate-size: 23170 X-purgate-ID: 151667::1399952688-00001326-228B9C78/0/0 Archived-At: 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mapi id 14.03.0181.006; Tue, 13 May 2014 05:46:45 +0200 From: "Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: ext Martin Thomson , Harald Alvestrand Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP Thread-Index: AQHPbXQT9TjLMQgt4EuqU8TdRTYSi5s8fWuAgABEhwCAABQtgIAAF/KAgAAP34CAAC45AIAAsTXg Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 03:46:45 +0000 Message-ID: <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F8091@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> References: <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F69E8@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> <5370D1E3.7040809@alvestrand.no> <5370F349.7050006@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.159.42.109] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-purgate-type: clean X-purgate-Ad: Categorized by eleven eXpurgate (R) http://www.eleven.de X-purgate: clean X-purgate: This mail is considered clean (visit http://www.eleven.de for further information) X-purgate-size: 10080 X-purgate-ID: 151667::1399952808-00001564-32433976/0/0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/k-gtP3FVfqFnXvZDoVEWp768NKg Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 03:47:02 -0000 SGkgTWFydGluLA0KDQpPayB3aXRoIHlvdXIgcHJvcG9zZWQgZmxvdyBhcyBsb25nIGFzIHRoZSBT RFAgb2J0YWluZWQgaW4gc3RlcCA2IHZpYSB0aGUgQVBJIGNvbnRhaW5zIHRoZSBjYW5kaWRhdGVz IChjdXJyZW50bHkgdGhlIFczQyBzcGVjIHN0YXRlcyB0aGV5IGFyZSBpbmNsdWRlZCB3aGVuIHVz aW5nIHBjLmxvY2FsRGVzY3JpcHRpb24pLg0KDQpBIHF1ZXN0aW9uIG9uIHN0ZXAgNiBhbmQgeW91 ciBzdGF0ZW1lbnQgYmVsb3cgdGhlIHNlcXVlbmNlOiBXaGF0IHdvdWxkIGJlIHRoZSBkaWZmZXJl bmNlIGJldHdlZW4gYW4gU0RQIGNyZWF0ZWQgYnkgcGMuY3JlYXRlT2ZmZXIgaW4gc3RlcCA2IGFu 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dGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vcnRjd2ViDQo+ID4+DQo+ID4NCj4gPg0KPiA+DQo+ID4g X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gPiBydGN3 ZWIgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+ID4gcnRjd2ViQGlldGYub3JnDQo+ID4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0 Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9ydGN3ZWINCj4gPg0KPiANCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gcnRjd2ViIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0K PiBydGN3ZWJAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5m by9ydGN3ZWINCg== From nobody Mon May 12 21:25:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBB801A083C for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 21:25:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jhR7HFMXCTkk for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 21:25:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f170.google.com (mail-wi0-f170.google.com [209.85.212.170]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 793151A083B for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 21:25:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f170.google.com with SMTP id bs8so6481882wib.1 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 21:24:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=IQ0T3jND4BibQm4HuCYyfU3Azd0XUR3vch3GdGLYbTQ=; b=UixlUCFvSKPCLn5FRWoF3MBAArpRo2Z6lyWJdVaKHIKhgSWChRF1r7TWOKImqStDA+ zAQhRNQtxyfji97bXboD5/Cf0q4L+5SLmOkdMYzh7xQBtM6JO6+BGXW1kjFzbuK/p25L sIJWyyJzEGq4Fe2m/Zldz8rKSVyAhWOHHFVq2j0/w4DGEd828FKjxuAyUYebvgtgghcI gqIcqaCBJOSqyDkyuuIxrY+C2OkMhtHGVt5WUv8WUhu4QXZQL4l53l0dTKTFxhnvFBQ2 /3Hh2sb/50PHhiUOyf5xwcvUS1Tl8kjnvUEwo7AG0EKtYIyN19AgPlMxxMNJnSU1jocO FCPQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkAn8InAFAkW/xbYjWxZz026z1G8jHoiKf5fTBPreXJr3l8TxYnUZgDQhEAtxf5lPQ1gP69 X-Received: by 10.180.97.68 with SMTP id dy4mr18832498wib.49.1399955095839; Mon, 12 May 2014 21:24:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.218.198 with HTTP; Mon, 12 May 2014 21:24:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [74.95.2.168] In-Reply-To: References: <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F69E8@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> <5370D1E3.7040809@alvestrand.no> <5370F349.7050006@alvestrand.no> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 21:24:15 -0700 Message-ID: To: Martin Thomson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d044306ac307ea104f94072ed Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/DN7MzOlKv_6A1XQEvP_czK9Pcgg Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 04:25:06 -0000 --f46d044306ac307ea104f94072ed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 11:59 AM, Martin Thomson wrote: > Why not: > > 1. pc.createOffer(...) > 2. success callback fires (0 candidates) > 3. pc.setLocalDescription(offer) > 4. onicecandidate fires some number of times > 5. onicecandidate fires with a null candidate > 6. send pc.localDescription (as opposed to the original offer) > > No need to run multiple rounds of createOffer or anything nasty like that= . > This doesn't seem like a complete answer. The spec explicitly allows multiple CreateOffers, so what is the impact of that? -Ekr > Note that we don't have an onicegatheringstatechange event that would > let us monitor that state more directly, but the actual code cost is > identical either way. > > > On 12 May 2014 09:14, Harald Alvestrand wrote: > > On 05/12/2014 05:17 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 6:51 AM, Harald Alvestrand > > > wrote: > >> > >> On 05/12/2014 02:39 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 2:03 AM, Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich) > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi Eric, all, > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Is the consequence of =E2=80=9Calways trickle=E2=80=9D that ICE candi= dates have to be > >>> added by non-trickling applications via SDP manipulation? > >>> > >>> I consider this indeed quite inconvenient for non-trickling > applications. > >> > >> > >> So, my understanding was that we had agreed that no candidates would > >> be available in the first CreateOffer() no matter how many candidates > were > >> in the pool. > >> > >> The intent of this message is to ask if that is useful. > >> > >> > >> If an application is written as > >> > >> 1) CreateOffer() > >> 2) wait for the end of candidates callback > >> 3) negotiate > >> > >> then I would think it might have trouble if all the candidates are > present > >> in the SDP, and therefore no callbacks were called. > >> Solution: Always fire the end of candidates callback after calling the > >> success callback, even if all candidates are in the SDP already. > > > > > > So you mean: > > > > 1. CreateOffer() > > 2. success callback fires. > > 3. SetLocal() > > 4. onicecandidate(...) > > 5. onicecandidate(null) > > > > Then later (w/ no changes to the MSTs) > > > > 6. CreateOffer() > > 7. success callback fires > > 8. SetLocal (????) > > 9. onicecandidate(null) > > > > I believe this would be a change to the W3C API (not that this is > > necessarily bad) > > > > > > Something like that, yes. Or in more detail, for a call requiring 2 > > candidates: > > > > 1. CreateOffer() > > 2. success callback fires (1 candidate present) > > 3. SetLocal() > > 4. onicecandidate(...) > > 5. onicecandidate(null) > > > > Then later (w/ no changes to the MSTs) > > > > 6. CreateOffer() > > 7. success callback fires (2 candidates present) > > 8. SetLocal () > > 9. onicecandidate(null) > > > > Then still later (after having done something that requires a 3rd > > candidate): > > > > 10. CreateOffer() > > 11. successCallback fires (2 candidates present) > > 12. SetLocal() > > 13. onicecandidate(...) > > 14. onicecandidate(null) > > > > If we don't have the null onicecandidate in case 2 (step 9), it gets > hard to > > support case 3 (step 12-14). > > > > > > -Ekr > > > >> > >> > >> > >> -Ekr > >> > >>> A way out would be that the SDP always contains the candidates > collected > >>> so far (as currently defined in the JSEP snippet cited), > >>> > >>> or that a switch in the API allows an application to configure the > >>> behavior when adding ICE candidates. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Kind regards, > >>> Uwe > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Eric > >>> Rescorla > >>> Sent: Monday, May 12, 2014 8:52 AM > >>> To: rtcweb@ietf.org > >>> Subject: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> See: https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/11 > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Section 3.4 reads: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> When a new ICE candidate is available, the ICE Agent will notify the > >>> > >>> application via a callback; these candidates will automatically be > >>> > >>> added to the local session description. When all candidates have > >>> > >>> been gathered, the callback will also be invoked to signal that the > >>> > >>> gathering process is complete. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> However, we agreed in London that we would do "always trickle", and > >>> > >>> that even if there were candidates available at the time when > CreateOffer > >>> > >>> (because of candidate pooling) was called, they would not be included > >>> > >>> in the initial offer. Consider the following sequence of events. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> 0. pc =3D new RTCPeerConnection(); > >>> > >>> 1. pc.AddStream(stream); > >>> > >>> 2. pc.CreateOffer(); > >>> > >>> 3. CreateOffer callback fires with offer A, and you call > >>> SetLocalDescription(); > >>> > >>> 4. onicecandidate fires with candidate X. > >>> > >>> 5. pc.CreateOffer() > >>> > >>> 6. CreateOffer callback fires with offer B. > >>> > >>> 7. onicecandidate fires with null. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> So, in London, I think we agreed that offer A would have no candidate= s. > >>> > >>> The above text implies that if you were to examine localdescription > prior > >>> > >>> to step #5 or at step #7 it would contain candidate X, and probably > that > >>> offer B would > >>> > >>> also contain candidate X. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Note that it's quite inconvenient for non-trickle applications to nev= er > >>> > >>> have any candidates in the SDP, especially after gathering is complet= ed > >>> > >>> at step #7. However it also seems kind of inconsistent to only update > the > >>> > >>> candidates after SetLocal() has been called. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -Ekr > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> rtcweb mailing list > >> rtcweb@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> rtcweb mailing list > >> rtcweb@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > >> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > rtcweb mailing list > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > --f46d044306ac307ea104f94072ed Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 11:59 AM, Martin Thomson = <martin.th= omson@gmail.com> wrote:
Why not:

1. pc.createOffer(...)
2. success callback fires (0 candidates)
3. pc.setLocalDescription(offer)
4. onicecandidate fires some number of times
5. onicecandidate fires with a null candidate
6. send pc.localDescription (as opposed to the original offer)

No need to run multiple rounds of createOffer or anything nasty like that.<= br>

This doesn't seem like a complete a= nswer. The spec explicitly allows
multiple CreateOffers, so what = is the impact of that?

-Ekr
=C2=A0
Note that we don't have an onicegatheringstatechange event that would let us monitor that state more directly, but the actual code cost is
identical either way.


On 12 May 2014 09:14, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote:
> On 05/12/2014 05:17 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 6:51 AM, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
> wrote:
>>
>> On 05/12/2014 02:39 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 2:03 AM, Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munic= h)
>> <uwe.rauschenbach@n= sn.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Eric, all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is the consequence of =E2=80=9Calways trickle=E2=80=9D that IC= E candidates have to be
>>> added by non-trickling applications via SDP manipulation?
>>>
>>> I consider this indeed quite inconvenient for non-trickling ap= plications.
>>
>>
>> So, my understanding was that we had agreed that no candidates wou= ld
>> be available in the first CreateOffer() no matter how many candida= tes were
>> in the pool.
>>
>> The intent of this message is to ask if that is useful.
>>
>>
>> If an application is written as
>>
>> 1) CreateOffer()
>> 2) wait for the end of candidates callback
>> 3) negotiate
>>
>> then I would think it might have trouble if all the candidates are= present
>> in the SDP, and therefore no callbacks were called.
>> Solution: Always fire the end of candidates callback after calling= the
>> success callback, even if all candidates are in the SDP already. >
>
> So you mean:
>
> 1. CreateOffer()
> 2. success callback fires.
> 3. SetLocal()
> 4. onicecandidate(...)
> 5. onicecandidate(null)
>
> Then later (w/ no changes to the MSTs)
>
> 6. CreateOffer()
> 7. success callback fires
> 8. SetLocal (????)
> 9. onicecandidate(null)
>
> I believe this would be a change to the W3C API (not that this is
> necessarily bad)
>
>
> Something like that, yes. Or in more detail, for a call requiring 2 > candidates:
>
> 1. CreateOffer()
> 2. success callback fires (1 candidate present)
> 3. SetLocal()
> 4. onicecandidate(...)
> 5. onicecandidate(null)
>
> Then later (w/ no changes to the MSTs)
>
> 6. CreateOffer()
> 7. success callback fires (2 candidates present)
> 8. SetLocal ()
> 9. onicecandidate(null)
>
> Then still later (after having done something that requires a 3rd
> candidate):
>
> 10. CreateOffer()
> 11. successCallback fires (2 candidates present)
> 12. SetLocal()
> 13. onicecandidate(...)
> 14. onicecandidate(null)
>
> If we don't have the null onicecandidate in case 2 (step 9), it ge= ts hard to
> support case 3 (step 12-14).
>
>
> -Ekr
>
>>
>>
>>
>> -Ekr
>>
>>> A way out would be that the SDP always contains the candidates= collected
>>> so far (as currently defined in the JSEP snippet cited),
>>>
>>> or that a switch in the API allows an application to configure= the
>>> behavior when adding ICE candidates.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>> Uwe
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Eric
>>> Rescorla
>>> Sent: Monday, May 12, 2014 8:52 AM
>>> To: rtcweb@ietf.org
>>> Subject: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> See: https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/11
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Section 3.4 reads:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> When a new ICE candidate is available, the ICE Agent will noti= fy the
>>>
>>> application via a callback; these candidates will automaticall= y be
>>>
>>> added to the local session description. When all candidates ha= ve
>>>
>>> been gathered, the callback will also be invoked to signal tha= t the
>>>
>>> gathering process is complete.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> However, we agreed in London that we would do "always tri= ckle", and
>>>
>>> that even if there were candidates available at the time when = CreateOffer
>>>
>>> (because of candidate pooling) was called, they would not be i= ncluded
>>>
>>> in the initial offer. Consider the following sequence of event= s.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 0. pc =3D new RTCPeerConnection();
>>>
>>> 1. pc.AddStream(stream);
>>>
>>> 2. pc.CreateOffer();
>>>
>>> 3. CreateOffer callback fires with offer A, and you call
>>> SetLocalDescription();
>>>
>>> 4. onicecandidate fires with candidate X.
>>>
>>> 5. pc.CreateOffer()
>>>
>>> 6. CreateOffer callback fires with offer B.
>>>
>>> 7. onicecandidate fires with null.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So, in London, I think we agreed that offer A would have no ca= ndidates.
>>>
>>> The above text implies that if you were to examine localdescri= ption prior
>>>
>>> to step #5 or at step #7 it would contain candidate X, and pro= bably that
>>> offer B would
>>>
>>> also contain candidate X.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Note that it's quite inconvenient for non-trickle applicat= ions to never
>>>
>>> have any candidates in the SDP, especially after gathering is = completed
>>>
>>> at step #7. However it also seems kind of inconsistent to only= update the
>>>
>>> candidates after SetLocal() has been called.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -Ekr
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtcweb mailing list
>> rtcweb@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>

--f46d044306ac307ea104f94072ed-- From nobody Mon May 12 22:36:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3EA01A0842 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 22:36:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dXcj7tA16c0Z for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 22:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x233.google.com (mail-wi0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 813491A083F for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 22:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f179.google.com with SMTP id bs8so5609267wib.12 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 22:36:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=vbxklFhsCHmO8rSNdzf2CPSEkF1KKpFKasYtenFMoa0=; b=ZNexHENcG+nFN0NgLg/aS5vJKo3cFJdv8/nkn79HIdXxX9qzg6uV/mo5+xxALnpYtC 6dM6UpxWr4D91B2nFd9eWpdyk4Y94983XrGzzodYGhf7fdGC0dfiWjcqJtT4cihHjast M5mUXcI1LAr1XxD47SeyA1glSyo+zACqS4PpGVJ+xRhEJl0co13bLJZSESHM+NV4T6VU sFIpPk0ggclvr7V+VxxSd47xzAcKzQ/FBWCaT3XOX9qhRZZVqk2tJGI8QIQW17bFzJ0b MC5L4pD+evPhcF+pdG0Y8xl3sX0Uk2Upi5iOX3+h4IaZoBZeSRrwZJ9JA1AJB9f1vIKz e2tA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.85.134 with SMTP id h6mr18920045wiz.44.1399959367859; Mon, 12 May 2014 22:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.235.163 with HTTP; Mon, 12 May 2014 22:36:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F8091@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> References: <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F69E8@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> <5370D1E3.7040809@alvestrand.no> <5370F349.7050006@alvestrand.no> <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F8091@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 22:36:07 -0700 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: "Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/hT9nvUIYnU0GA5VRgxalqcGs5_E Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 05:36:15 -0000 On 12 May 2014 20:46, Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote: > > A question on step 6 and your statement below the sequence: What would be the difference between an SDP created by pc.createOffer in step 6 and one obtained by getting pc.localDescription in step 6? The difference is that the second contains candidates. > Why do you consider multiple pc.createOffer calls nasty? They aren't convenient. You risk mistakes. From nobody Mon May 12 22:37:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F6F81A0844 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 22:37:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q2J0HLOOsfHp for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 22:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x22b.google.com (mail-we0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::22b]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 073441A0842 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 22:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f171.google.com with SMTP id w62so7872048wes.30 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 22:37:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=JNfI1b4dtDEa/YBWmqWSt3TvTd0N897HF7o8Rb0c81Q=; b=fHLI0NXS19YRlGfM9I+v+Ki4Nt4RffWx5Rr5QEF2l+JDq5ecnf51+vG8ktd/qB05P1 FM+9SSug/x1mMyzlgYshayi20TDXqQPuyg3j22KHGAGGrer+4cmzYALWtyxRQ45vMng9 AgE9rlJBcQlxReB/O8MqC+hcd+fVq3gYmeq2jICh75Tt/4Z2i/efQJVyEhxKOtaTG5AF YCOMfmetgUKC5b+0QyukNxEnY8sMWDBfjA5cysEYQmVY0zrA5mkSY2p+9L149qv091y0 4DyaD+b0ecfz9IN3udB7AApg72kFIwEU3sBN+rl3jz+VFcAy28eBQntKOLcOhxO/LBn7 flpQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.195.17.169 with SMTP id gf9mr3587486wjd.10.1399959452322; Mon, 12 May 2014 22:37:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.235.163 with HTTP; Mon, 12 May 2014 22:37:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F69E8@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> <5370D1E3.7040809@alvestrand.no> <5370F349.7050006@alvestrand.no> Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 22:37:32 -0700 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Eric Rescorla Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/WBXvEfs_xwWMEumSSy2RBl0nd0g Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 05:37:40 -0000 On 12 May 2014 21:24, Eric Rescorla wrote: > This doesn't seem like a complete answer. The spec explicitly allows > multiple CreateOffers, so what is the impact of that? That would be OK too, except for the async inconvenience associated with it. And the risk that you get something different each time (or that you've messed something up). From nobody Mon May 12 23:06:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 272C61A0845 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 23:06:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id diKdmt9APCGq for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 23:06:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (demumfd001.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.32]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7A541A0842 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 23:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.55]) by demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id s4D65tI9002593 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 May 2014 06:05:55 GMT Received: from DEMUHTC001.nsn-intra.net ([10.159.42.32]) by demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id s4D65sN6002339 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 May 2014 08:05:54 +0200 Received: from DEMUHTC008.nsn-intra.net (10.159.42.39) by DEMUHTC001.nsn-intra.net (10.159.42.32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.181.6; Tue, 13 May 2014 08:05:54 +0200 Received: from DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net ([169.254.5.67]) by DEMUHTC008.nsn-intra.net ([10.159.42.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0181.006; Tue, 13 May 2014 08:05:54 +0200 From: "Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: ext Martin Thomson Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP Thread-Index: AQHPbXQT9TjLMQgt4EuqU8TdRTYSi5s8fWuAgABEhwCAABQtgIAAF/KAgAAP34CAAC45AIAAsTXggAAArICAACP6IA== Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 06:05:54 +0000 Message-ID: <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F83FD@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> References: <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F69E8@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> <5370D1E3.7040809@alvestrand.no> <5370F349.7050006@alvestrand.no> <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F8091@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.159.42.109] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-purgate-type: clean X-purgate-Ad: Categorized by eleven eXpurgate (R) http://www.eleven.de X-purgate: clean X-purgate: This mail is considered clean (visit http://www.eleven.de for further information) X-purgate-size: 2386 X-purgate-ID: 151667::1399961155-00001326-435AA7DC/0/0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/OkTx6awHq5f7wE66X6yeBkUlRoY Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 06:06:09 -0000 DQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gRnJvbTogZXh0IE1hcnRpbiBUaG9t c29uIFttYWlsdG86bWFydGluLnRob21zb25AZ21haWwuY29tXQ0KPiANCj4gT24gMTIgTWF5IDIw MTQgMjA6NDYsIFJhdXNjaGVuYmFjaCwgVXdlIChOU04gLSBERS9NdW5pY2gpDQo+IDx1d2UucmF1 c2NoZW5iYWNoQG5zbi5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KPiA+DQo+ID4gQSBxdWVzdGlvbiBvbiBzdGVwIDYg YW5kIHlvdXIgc3RhdGVtZW50IGJlbG93IHRoZSBzZXF1ZW5jZTogV2hhdCB3b3VsZA0KPiBiZSB0 aGUgZGlmZmVyZW5jZSBiZXR3ZWVuIGFuIFNEUCBjcmVhdGVkIGJ5IHBjLmNyZWF0ZU9mZmVyIGlu IHN0ZXAgNiBhbmQNCj4gb25lIG9idGFpbmVkIGJ5IGdldHRpbmcgcGMubG9jYWxEZXNjcmlwdGlv biBpbiBzdGVwIDY/DQo+IA0KPiBUaGUgZGlmZmVyZW5jZSBpcyB0aGF0IHRoZSBzZWNvbmQgY29u dGFpbnMgY2FuZGlkYXRlcy4NCg0KVXdlOiBUaGVuLCBsZXQgbWUgZWxhYm9yYXRlIGEgYml0IG1v cmUuDQoNCk9idmlvdXNseSwgd2UgbmVlZCBhbiBTRFAgcmVmbGVjdGluZyB0aGUgbG9jYWwgY29u ZmlndXJhdGlvbiBmb3IgdHdvIHB1cnBvc2VzOg0KMSkgVG8gZmVlZCBpdCB0byBzZXRMb2NhbERl c2NyaXB0aW9uIGluIG9yZGVyIHRvIHN0YXJ0IHRoZSBJQ0UgZ2F0aGVyaW5nDQoyKSBUbyBzZW5k IGl0IGFzIGFuIG9mZmVyIHRvIHRoZSBvdGhlciBwZWVyDQoNClRoZSBuYW1lICJjcmVhdGVPZmZl ciIgaW1wbGllcyB0aGF0IHRoZSBTRFAgZGVsaXZlcmVkIGFzIHRoZSByZXN1bHQgb2YgY3JlYXRl T2ZmZXIgaXMgdGhlIG9uZSB0byB1c2UgYXMgYW4gb2ZmZXIgaW4gbmVnb3RpYXRpb24uIExvb2tp bmcgYXQgdGhlIHdheSB0aGlzIG1lY2hhbmlzbSBoYXMgZXZvbHZlZCwgdGhpcyBpcyBwcm9iYWJs eSBvbmx5IHRydWUgYW55bW9yZSBpZiBvbmUgaXMgcHJlcGFyZWQgdG8gc2VuZCB0aGUgb2ZmZXIg aW1tZWRpYXRlbHksIGFuZCB0aGVuIHRvIHRyaWNrbGUgSUNFIGNhbmRpZGF0ZXMuIFRvIG9idGFp biBhbiBTRFAgdG8gdXNlIGFzIGFuIG9mZmVyIGluIG5lZ290aWF0aW9ucyB3aXRob3V0IHRyaWNr bGUgSUNFLCBvbmUgaGFzIHRvIGNhbGwgc2V0TG9jYWwsIHdhaXQgZm9yICJlbmQgb2YgY2FuZGlk YXRlcyIgYW5kIHRoZW4gcmVhZCBwYy5sb2NhbERlc2NyaXB0aW9uLg0KDQpTbyAiY3JlYXRlT2Zm ZXIiIGluIGZhY3QgZG9lcyBub3QgY3JlYXRlIGFuIG9mZmVyLCBidXQgYW4gaW5pdGlhbCAob3Ig dXBkYXRlZCkgbG9jYWwgZGVzY3JpcHRpb24gdGhhdCBpcyB0aGVuIGZlZCBpbnRvIHNldExvY2Fs RGVzY3JpcHRpb24gdG8gc3RhcnQgdGhlIElDRSBnYXRoZXJpbmcuDQoNCkRvIHlvdSBhZ3JlZSB3 aXRoIHRoaXMgb2JzZXJ2YXRpb24/IElmIHlvdSBkbywgc2hvdWxkbid0IHdlIHJlbmFtZSBjcmVh dGVPZmZlciB0byBzb21ldGhpbmcgbW9yZSBnZW5lcmljIGxpa2UgImNyZWF0ZUxvY2FsRGVzY3Jp cHRpb24iIG9yIHNpbWlsYXI/ICJjcmVhdGVPZmZlciIgZG9lcyBub3QgY3JlYXRlIHRoZSBvZmZl ciAoYXQgbGVhc3QgaXQgZG9lcyBub3QgZG8gc28gaW4gY2FzZSBvZiBub24tdHJpY2tsaW5nKSBi dXQgdGhlIGlucHV0IHRvIHNldExvY2FsLi4uDQogDQoNCj4gPiBXaHkgZG8geW91IGNvbnNpZGVy IG11bHRpcGxlIHBjLmNyZWF0ZU9mZmVyIGNhbGxzIG5hc3R5Pw0KPiANCj4gVGhleSBhcmVuJ3Qg Y29udmVuaWVudC4gIFlvdSByaXNrIG1pc3Rha2VzLg0K From nobody Mon May 12 23:55:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A9351A07EE for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 23:55:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MTbUVzCSQqZv for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 23:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-n.franken.de (drew.ipv6.franken.de [IPv6:2001:638:a02:a001:20e:cff:fe4a:feaa]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2C921A0409 for ; Mon, 12 May 2014 23:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.200] (p54819945.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.129.153.69]) (Authenticated sender: macmic) by mail-n.franken.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id B90EF1C0E9739; Tue, 13 May 2014 08:55:12 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Michael Tuexen In-Reply-To: <534D566B.3040905@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 08:29:21 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <530B740E.4090707@ericsson.com> <53160FBB.4070401@ericsson.com> <1904CA30-1112-44D4-8C6F-F15F1EF1BF9B@lurchi.franken.de> <534D566B.3040905@ericsson.com> To: Magnus Westerlund X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/sYIQPFt84pklvKU98upaekmA1PI Cc: draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol@tools.ietf.org, "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Review comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-03 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 06:55:27 -0000 On 15 Apr 2014, at 17:55, Magnus Westerlund = wrote: > Hi, >=20 > Please see inline for replies. >=20 > On 2014-04-10 13:50, Michael Tuexen wrote: >> On 04 Mar 2014, at 17:39, Magnus Westerlund = wrote: >>=20 >>> On 2014-02-25 17:07, Michael Tuexen wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> On Feb 24, 2014, at 5:32 PM, Magnus Westerlund = wrote: >>>>> 1. Section 4: >>>>> Shouldn't this section discuss the priority field? >>>> I added in the list of consistent properties: >>>>=20 >>>> the priority of the data Channel. >>>>=20 >>>> and in the text below that enumeration: >>>>=20 >>>> ?????? >>>=20 >>> Yes, text for this needs to be figured out. >> We don't define at this place what priority is. The only point is = that both >> sides use the same priority. >=20 > Okay, I agree, the Priority is a property of the established Data > Channel, and the values and implication of these needs to be defined = in > the Data Channel draft and not here. OK. The only thing we might want to change in this ID is the type of the Priority field. It is currently a signed integer, we might want to use an unsigned integer. But that is a different issue, which I'll need to discuss with Randell. >=20 >>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> 2. Section 4: >>>>>=20 >>>>> The method >>>>> used to determine which side uses odd or even is based on the >>>>> underlying DTLS connection role when used in WebRTC, with the side >>>>> acting as the DTLS client using even stream identifiers. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Isn't this unnecessary using the vague word of WebRTC instead of = simply >>>>> pointing to the DTLS roles of the established data channel? >>>=20 >>>> The point is that in the WebRTC you use DCEP/SCTP/DTLS/UDP and = therefore >>>> you can refer to the DTLS role. However, you could use DCEP/SCTP/IP >>>> or DCEP/SCTP/UDP/IP or DCEP/SCTP over something not involving DTLS. >>>> In that case DTLS is not used and you can not refer to the DTLS = role. >>>> That is why the restriction is used. >>>=20 >>> Ok, if that concern then you still should be able to write a = normative >>> specification under the condition that it is SCTP over DTLS. If not = how >>> do you determine that? Are suggesting just to hand way or point to a >>> higher signaling layer. >> So what about using: >>=20 >> when using , the = method used to >> determine which side uses odd or even is based on the underlying DTLS >> connection role: the side acting as the DTLS client MUST use Streams = with even >> SCTP stream identifiers, the side acting as the DTLS server MUST use = Streams >> with odd SCTP stream identifiers. >=20 > I think that is fine for when using over DTLS. And to my understanding > this do require DTLS? If not we need alternative text. Our current use-case is for SCTP/DTLS. But we don't need DTLS except for its security properties. However, if someone doesn't use DTLS, he has to figure out how to determine the even/odd. This is covered by: To avoid glare in opening Channels, each side MUST use Streams with=20= either even or odd SCTP stream identifiers when sending a = DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message. When using , the = method used to determine which side uses odd or even is based on the underlying DTLS connection role: the side acting as the DTLS client MUST use Streams = with even SCTP stream identifiers, the side acting as the DTLS server MUST use = Streams with odd SCTP stream identifiers. However, we can't provide a method in the general case... >=20 >=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> 4. Section 5.1: >>>>> Label: Variable Length (sequence of characters) >>>>> The name of the channel. This may be an empty string. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Protocol: Variable Length (sequence of characters) >>>>> The protocol for the channel. If this is an empty string the >>>>> protocol us unspecified. If it is an non-empty string, it >>>>> specifies an IANA-registered protocol (see Section 8.4). >>>>>=20 >>>>> Both of these fields are strings, shouldn't a particular encoding = be >>>>> specified here? Like UTF-8. Secondly, what values are allowed, the = full >>>>> set of Unicode? >>>=20 >>>> You are right. Any need for restrictions? We only need to be able = to >>>> transform it to a DomString. >>>> So I changed it to: >>>>=20 >>>> >>>> >>>> The name of the channel as a UTF-8 encoded string. >>>> This may be an empty string. >>>>=20 >>>> >>>> >>>> The protocol for the channel as a UTF-8 encoded string. >>>> If this is an empty string the protocol us unspecified. >>>> If it is an non-empty string, it specifies an IANA-registered = protocol >>>> (see ). >>>=20 >>> I guess this is slightly overtaken by event. It have to be aligned = with >>> what the websocket sub-protocol identifier. >> The text now reads: >> >> >> The sub-protocol for the channel as a UTF-8 encoded string. >> If this is an empty string the protocol is unspecified. >> If it is a non-empty string, it specifies an protocol registered in = the >> 'WebSocket Subprotocol Name Registry' created in >> . >=20 > Ok. >=20 >>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> 5. Section 6: >>>>> All Data Channel Establishment Protocol messages MUST be sent >>>>> requesting ordered delivery and using reliable transmission. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I wonder of the use of requesting ordered delivery and using = reliable >>>>> transmission, from an SCTP stream perspective, wouldn't using in = both >>>>> places be appropriate? Or is how object which has been requested = to be >>>>> transmitted unordered interact in SCTP with the ordered ones? >>>=20 >>>> I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are asking... >>>=20 >>> Sorry, it really is a language issue. The above sentence first = states >>> "sent 'requesting' ordered" and later "and 'using' reliable". >>>=20 >>> This inconsistency is what I reacted to. >> I see. Changed to: >> All Data Channel Establishment Protocol messages MUST be sent = using >> ordered delivery and reliable transmission. >=20 > Ok >=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> 6. Section 7: >>>>>=20 >>>>> I think this section can be beefed up a bit. First make clear that = the >>>>> Data Channel's required usage of DTLS ensures that the message = integrity >>>>> and possible source authentication as well as confidentiality. = Then >>>>> going over any security risks with a malicous peer using this = protocol. >>>>> Can a malicous side screw up the peer using this protocol? What = are the >>>>> implications? >>>=20 >>>> Just to double check: Aren't the referenced documents the ones = which >>>> discuss all security stuff in one place? >>>=20 >>> The security document do discuss system level important aspects. = But, >>> from my perspective, details that are very specific to this protocol >>> should be discussed in this document. >>>=20 >>> I think this is highly relevant in this document as there are others >>> that are interested in using it. >> OK. Any concrete suggestions what should be covered? >=20 > I can at least think of potentially relevant issues: >=20 > - Exhaustion attacks by opening all 64k Data channels You setup 64k streams anyway and it wasn't a problem... > - Attempting to overflow buffers by including 64k of Strings in Label > and Protocol fields in the OPEN message. OK. > - Attempt to get undocumented behaviour by sending Reliability > Parameters that aren't defined. Or use out of range Priorities or > message types. This is also covered explicitly in the Procedures section by If a DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message is received on an already used SCTP = stream or there are any problems with parameters within the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN = message or the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message itself is not well-formed, the receiver MUST close the corresponding channel using the procedure = described in and MUST NOT send a DATA_CHANNEL_ACK message in response to the received message. >=20 > But that I guess is most of the things I can think of to attempt to > break the protocol. I agree. >=20 > Then it is the question of requiring DTLS to ensure it is safe from > Privacy, Confidentiality, Integrity and possibly source authentication > concerns. Sure. So what about the following Security Considerations section: The DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN messages contains two variable length fields: the protocol and the label. A receiver must be prepared to receive DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN messages where these field have the maximum length of 65535 bytes. Error cases like the use of inconsistent lengths fields, unknown parameter values or violation the odd/even rule must also be = handled by closing the corresponding channel. An end-point must also be prepared that the peer open the maximum number of data channels. When using DCEP over SCTP encapsulated in DTLS as specified in , security properties like privacy, integrity, and source authentication can be provided by = DTLS. If DCEP is used without running over DTLS, this is not the case. For general considerations see and . Does this address your issues? Best regards Michael >=20 >=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> 11. This comments concerns the relation to the Data Channel >>>>> specification. So my interpretation is that the WebRTC Data = channel >>>>> draft has become both the base for this specification as well as = the one >>>>> that specifies that the DCEP shall be implemented and supported. = For >>>>> WebRTC I don't think this matters much, but if someone likes to = re-use >>>>> the basic Data Channel specification, this structure makes it more >>>>> difficult and have no need for the bi-directional negotiated = parameter >>>>> settings that the DCEP provides. In that case one have to sub-set = the >>>=20 >>>> I think the data channel draft discusses the data channels = independent >>>> how they are opened. This covers data parameters, user data = transmission >>>> and closing of data channels. The data channel protocol draft = discusses >>>> an in-band protocol for setting up data channels. >>>=20 >>> I think this was discussed today. And make it clear that DCEP >>> requirement shouldn't be from the Data Channel spec. >>>=20 >>>>> data channel specification. I wonder if it would be better to move = some >>>>> normative statements around, so that the chain of implementation >>>>> requirement goes draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports -> >>>>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol -> draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel = thus >>>>> providing a cleaner and more modular build up of the protocols. >>>> I think you can implement draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel without >>>> draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol, but not vice versa. >>>>=20 >>>> So you don't like the statement: >>>>=20 >>>> A simple protocol for internal negotiation is specified in >>>> [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol] and MUST be supported. >>>>=20 >>>> from draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel. What would you suggest? >>>=20 >>> I think the high level requirement on DCEP might be in = -rtcweb-transports. >> It now reads: >> A simple protocol for in-band negotiation is specified in = [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol]. >=20 >=20 > Ok >=20 >=20 > Cheers >=20 >=20 > Magnus Westerlund >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 From nobody Tue May 13 00:55:03 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B0491A0852 for ; Tue, 13 May 2014 00:55:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X8dBSDfdYRAa for ; Tue, 13 May 2014 00:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yh0-x232.google.com (mail-yh0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c01::232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC2841A0847 for ; Tue, 13 May 2014 00:55:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yh0-f50.google.com with SMTP id 29so7447086yhl.9 for ; Tue, 13 May 2014 00:54:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=y6ZAo9ZMBcyQzh115FvlBjuSvpPRxDlifa0Rc+i9xI8=; b=qP9h65N7TgWCp/RaUTbWdZKDrN8JzNUu1f4PhLb8ti1UnAlQZX3FxY1a2qv9qhMF/T Y2k+U2cRKE+BMtHqmPmb67oWI05dWOnXrxFpyfVS+JoMwDrFGHzc4ySGBF3c4FUDt/gR rIjnAmfrYqhuJ7mBLxUB18EbvB2mwC1A9LwJhc4rjNp77MzGUxKSMAkfxbZQvfsJ3Qbe JXwSyVArhv+4pVpaRYlD/TXDbg7GBv71tZaKduCv9Hm/VTv2avTuMLsy/Z/pMR6E4L7c QTBHUr6yMV6V2H1wsGWvsUh8n3VstrzmpuIZJ5PsUFk2Azjo1Ww+MsxaqT57dqQqW+ep lgxA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.236.209.68 with SMTP id r44mr1305925yho.152.1399967694657; Tue, 13 May 2014 00:54:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.170.90.193 with HTTP; Tue, 13 May 2014 00:54:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.170.90.193 with HTTP; Tue, 13 May 2014 00:54:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F83FD@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> References: <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F69E8@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> <5370D1E3.7040809@alvestrand.no> <5370F349.7050006@alvestrand.no> <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F8091@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F83FD@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 17:54:54 +1000 Message-ID: From: Silvia Pfeiffer To: "Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2a77e231f5004f94361ba Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/ceceTZJfwhw_DZhU7d_vH6UsNBs Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 07:55:02 -0000 --001a11c2a77e231f5004f94361ba Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On 13 May 2014 16:06, "Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich)" < uwe.rauschenbach@nsn.com> wrote: > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ext Martin Thomson [mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com] > > > > On 12 May 2014 20:46, Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich) > > wrote: > > > > > > A question on step 6 and your statement below the sequence: What would > > be the difference between an SDP created by pc.createOffer in step 6 and > > one obtained by getting pc.localDescription in step 6? > > > > The difference is that the second contains candidates. > > Uwe: Then, let me elaborate a bit more. > > Obviously, we need an SDP reflecting the local configuration for two purposes: > 1) To feed it to setLocalDescription in order to start the ICE gathering > 2) To send it as an offer to the other peer > > The name "createOffer" implies that the SDP delivered as the result of createOffer is the one to use as an offer in negotiation. Looking at the way this mechanism has evolved, this is probably only true anymore if one is prepared to send the offer immediately, and then to trickle ICE candidates. To obtain an SDP to use as an offer in negotiations without trickle ICE, one has to call setLocal, wait for "end of candidates" and then read pc.localDescription. > > So "createOffer" in fact does not create an offer, but an initial (or updated) local description that is then fed into setLocalDescription to start the ICE gathering. > > Do you agree with this observation? If you do, shouldn't we rename createOffer to something more generic like "createLocalDescription" or similar? "createOffer" does not create the offer (at least it does not do so in case of non-trickling) but the input to setLocal... > I agree, the name is very misleading now. Silvia. > > > > Why do you consider multiple pc.createOffer calls nasty? > > > > They aren't convenient. You risk mistakes. > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb --001a11c2a77e231f5004f94361ba Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 13 May 2014 16:06, "Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich)" <<= a href=3D"mailto:uwe.rauschenbach@nsn.com">uwe.rauschenbach@nsn.com>= wrote:
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ext Martin Thomson [mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com]
> >
> > On 12 May 2014 20:46, Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich)
> > <uwe.rauschenbach@= nsn.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > A question on step 6 and your statement below the sequence: = What would
> > be the difference between an SDP created by pc.createOffer in ste= p 6 and
> > one obtained by getting pc.localDescription in step 6?
> >
> > The difference is that the second contains candidates.
>
> Uwe: Then, let me elaborate a bit more.
>
> Obviously, we need an SDP reflecting the local configuration for two p= urposes:
> 1) To feed it to setLocalDescription in order to start the ICE gatheri= ng
> 2) To send it as an offer to the other peer
>
> The name "createOffer" implies that the SDP delivered as the= result of createOffer is the one to use as an offer in negotiation. Lookin= g at the way this mechanism has evolved, this is probably only true anymore= if one is prepared to send the offer immediately, and then to trickle ICE = candidates. To obtain an SDP to use as an offer in negotiations without tri= ckle ICE, one has to call setLocal, wait for "end of candidates" = and then read pc.localDescription.
>
> So "createOffer" in fact does not create an offer, but an in= itial (or updated) local description that is then fed into setLocalDescript= ion to start the ICE gathering.
>
> Do you agree with this observation? If you do, shouldn't we rename= createOffer to something more generic like "createLocalDescription&qu= ot; or similar? "createOffer" does not create the offer (at least= it does not do so in case of non-trickling) but the input to setLocal... >

I agree, the name is very misleading now.

Silvia.

>
> > > Why do you consider multiple pc.createOffer calls nasty?
> >
> > They aren't convenient. =C2=A0You risk mistakes.
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.i= etf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

--001a11c2a77e231f5004f94361ba-- From nobody Tue May 13 03:30:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C97061A000D for ; Tue, 13 May 2014 03:30:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER SECTION, Duplicate header field: "MIME-Version" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.834 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.834 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.723, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RELAY_IS_203=0.994, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EK2LHm2mNJ6x for ; Tue, 13 May 2014 03:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout2.samsung.com (mailout2.samsung.com [203.254.224.25]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1319C1A0043 for ; Tue, 13 May 2014 03:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epcpsbgr2.samsung.com (u142.gpu120.samsung.co.kr [203.254.230.142]) by mailout2.samsung.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-24.01 (7.0.4.24.0) 64bit (built Nov 17 2011)) with ESMTP id <0N5I001END4Z0AE0@mailout2.samsung.com> for rtcweb@ietf.org; Tue, 13 May 2014 19:29:23 +0900 (KST) Received: from epcpsbgx2.samsung.com ( [172.20.52.126]) by epcpsbgr2.samsung.com (EPCPMTA) with SMTP id C0.7F.14563.304F1735; Tue, 13 May 2014 19:29:23 +0900 (KST) X-AuditID: cbfee68e-b7fd86d0000038e3-1f-5371f4032ba8 Received: from epmailer03 ( [203.254.219.143]) by epcpsbgx2.samsung.com (EPCPMTA) with SMTP id D3.E0.20075.204F1735; Tue, 13 May 2014 19:29:23 +0900 (KST) Message-id: Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 10:29:23 +0000 (GMT) From: Kiran Kumar Guduru To: "rtcweb-request@ietf.org" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" , martin.thomson@gmail.com, harald@alvestrand.no MIME-version: 1.0 X-MTR: 20140513100602076@kiran.guduru 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Message-id: <18.66.20075.C6902735@epcpsbgx2.samsung.com> Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 12:00:44 +0000 (GMT) From: Kiran Kumar Guduru To: Martin Thomson , Eric Rescorla MIME-version: 1.0 X-MTR: 20140513114738324@kiran.guduru Msgkey: 20140513114738324@kiran.guduru X-EPLocale: en_US.windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-EPWebmail-Msg-Type: personal X-EPWebmail-Reply-Demand: 0 X-EPApproval-Locale: X-EPHeader: ML X-EPTrCode: X-EPTrName: X-MLAttribute: X-RootMTR: 20140513114738324@kiran.guduru X-ParentMTR: X-ArchiveUser: X-CPGSPASS: N MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/related; boundary="=_NamoWEC-8eldb02oi2" X-Generator: Namo ActiveSquare 7 7.0.0.45 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrBKsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsWyRsSkRjeHsyjYYNlZbYu1/9rZHRg9liz5 yRTAGMVlk5Kak1mWWqRvl8CV8WXzfOaCc9sYK+5uncDYwHh5I2MXIyeHkIC6xIbV99hAbAkB E4nTu7+yQ9hiEhfurQeKcwHVLGWUWPPkCCNM0etVnVCJOYwSP+cuBkvwClhIvF/yihnEZhFQ lVj/5w7YVDaghl8n1oDVCAuYSqzcvhfMFhEIlHg/bRrYNmaBCIn7556wQFykJLH26k1WiJmC 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08:08:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAB711A00DB for ; Tue, 13 May 2014 08:08:09 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-f79a86d0000010e9-6b-53723552063a Received: from ESESSHC021.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 28.01.04329.25532735; Tue, 13 May 2014 17:08:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.83) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.174.1; Tue, 13 May 2014 17:08:02 +0200 Message-ID: <53723549.1040200@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 17:07:53 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ben Campbell , References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrMLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvjW6QaVGwwc4d+hbzO0+zW6z9187u wOSxZMlPJo9ZO5+wBDBFcdmkpOZklqUW6dslcGWc+axU0C5XsXzCc+YGxrfiXYycHBICJhJ7 Pl5ggrDFJC7cW88GYgsJHGWU6FzD2cXIBWQvZ5ToWv8OrIhXQFuio+MFWBGLgKrEj3/dYDab gIXEzR+NYLaoQLDEhod/2SHqBSVOznzCAmKLCJhKzFg0kRHEFhZwlujpf8YMscxOYvP252C9 nAL2EkdW9gL1cgAdJC7R0xgEEmYW0JOYcrWFEcKWl2jeOhuqVVuioamDdQKj4Cwk22YhaZmF pGUBI/MqRtHi1OLi3HQjI73Uoszk4uL8PL281JJNjMBQPbjlt9UOxoPPHQ8xCnAwKvHwKvAU BguxJpYVV+YeYpTmYFES5520yD1YSCA9sSQ1OzW1ILUovqg0J7X4ECMTB6dUA2Os8B7BB/vS Hn8oEhQqiL6tavCUIbXjqeurM7teWe6pT2d4xbzAxcHkyAeHgHrx75ZPn81bzCV4hzNn9kTH x07T+L1vXjtT/UXU+tCW+b6KJ7U3H+716JTMmiYtoO4smBze1bXt1MTlul22nPVXtecc2bls 97vknDYdef2WK4ea9rsXRX9LXqLEUpyRaKjFXFScCABM1WlWNgIAAA== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/NbL-fF1xLobpTjf9tyQhfUkCcqM Subject: Re: [rtcweb] WGLC review of draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 15:08:12 -0000 Hi Ben, Thanks for the review, please see reply inline. On 2014-05-09 23:56, Ben Campbell wrote: > Hi, > > This draft seems well constructed. I don't have much in the way of > technical comments, but do have a few extremely minor/editorial > comments: > > Thanks! > > /Ben > > ---------------------- > > -- 4.1, 2nd to last bullet: > > Can there be a reference for " RTCP timer reconsideration " Yes we can add a section reference into RFC 3550 for this. > > -- 4.3, last paragraph: "RTP receivers MUST follow the > recommendations in Section 4.3 of [RFC7160] in order to support ..." > > I assume that you mean that receivers MUST support the > recommendations because they need to support multiple clock rates. A > strained interpretation could assume that, if they want to support > multiple clock rates, they MUST support..." Correct, will look at reformulating this. Because I believe an WebRTC receiver must be required to support multiple clock rates. > > -- 4.5, first paragraph: " ... support for multiplexing RTP data > packets and RTCP control packets on a single transport-layer flow for > each RTP session is REQUIRED, provided it is negotiated in the > signalling channel ..." > > I assume the intent is that support...is REQUIRED, but only _used_ if > negotiated? As written, it seems to say _support_ is both REQUIRED > and negotiated. Yes, required to implement support for, use based on negotiation. Will take a look at proposing another formulation. > > (A similar construction occurs in 4.6, 2nd paragraph) Will take a look at that too. > > -- 5.2.2, last paragraph: > > If I understand 6904 correctly, you signal the use of encryption for > each header you want to encrypt, right? If so, then how is > "explicitly disabled through ... signalling" different than "not > signalled"? If it's the same thing, then this comes perilously close > saying "... RECOMMENDED that the encryption be used ... unless you > don't want to." Yes, you are correct, assuming that signalling is SDP. Which not all on this mailing list assumes. One way to resolve this is to actually tease the two parts apart. First of all it is recommended to encrypt it. Secondly, this may be controlled through an API or signalling. > > (I have no objection to the "explicitly disabled through the API" ) > > -- Figures 1 and 2: > > Any chance of centering these? This is an bug in the version 2.0 of XML2RFC. Can't do anything about until someone fixes this, or hand adjust it. > > -- 12.1.3: > > How does (or will) DART fit in here? Seems like it might have > something to say, but I'm not sure how the timing relates. So this text is the high level teaser to DART work from my perspective. The Dart work will have to get into some of the more subtler issues. To my understanding the DART output will be part of the reference chain here. This document reference [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos] which in its turn will reference DART. You will also likely to be able to reach the DART document through draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports. If the DART document becomes available and seen as ready prior to this having gone to far down the publication process we can reconsider if this should have a direct reference or not. For now I would leave it out. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Tue May 13 08:27:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DE7B1A00E3 for ; Tue, 13 May 2014 08:26:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ikgouOSG7z8I for ; Tue, 13 May 2014 08:26:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F0BC1A008E for ; Tue, 13 May 2014 08:26:56 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-f79a86d0000010e9-e0-537239b98fe1 Received: from ESESSHC022.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 28.43.04329.9B932735; Tue, 13 May 2014 17:26:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.86) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.174.1; Tue, 13 May 2014 17:26:48 +0200 Message-ID: <537239AD.9040000@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 17:26:37 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Tuexen References: <530B740E.4090707@ericsson.com> <53160FBB.4070401@ericsson.com> <1904CA30-1112-44D4-8C6F-F15F1EF1BF9B@lurchi.franken.de> <534D566B.3040905@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrDLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje5Oy6Jgg8c7lS1WH97LZnGxaQmj xdp/7ewOzB5Llvxk8tjQsoPJ48vlz2wBzFFcNimpOZllqUX6dglcGfOXn2Uu2ONc0dj9h7mB 8YZZFyMnh4SAiUT3j23MELaYxIV769m6GLk4hASOMkrMPj+XGcJZzigxadUddpAqXgFtiWWH 1zCB2CwCqhI3eg6C2WwCFhI3fzSygdiiAsESGx7+haoXlDg58wkLiC0iYCpxcPk8MJtZIFqi 4+ZNsM3CAt4Sy1a0Qm2exiQxpfEi2CBOAVeJKXMfA9kcQOeJS/Q0BkH06klMudrCCGHLSzRv nQ02RwjotoamDtYJjEKzkKyehaRlFpKWBYzMqxhFi1OLi3PTjYz0Uosyk4uL8/P08lJLNjEC g/vglt9WOxgPPnc8xCjAwajEw6vAUxgsxJpYVlyZe4hRmoNFSZx30iL3YCGB9MSS1OzU1ILU ovii0pzU4kOMTBycUg2MTJu+n51aNOHAlRnT9osqS0S5aJz0cnyjbh4i8/gC51m2pniOpuBp be/YjeWWvNP1KZZuWXRhskhWVKtux5SUD6UPGu9kXXR+tbtgtvq2fUWN+swTZDeGXEv0vfdC of3Q6t6JFvu+fjnAyyo2sz/2opngszfv5ZXKXin5+x9mWHvPNnnp7pW8SizFGYmGWsxFxYkA JzPOZE8CAAA= Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/fqA-oOBHfxztla0Eu5vG3YLpgBQ Cc: draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol@tools.ietf.org, "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Review comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-03 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 15:26:59 -0000 Hi, Please see inline. On 2014-05-13 08:29, Michael Tuexen wrote: > On 15 Apr 2014, at 17:55, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >> On 2014-04-10 13:50, Michael Tuexen wrote: >>> On 04 Mar 2014, at 17:39, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >>>> On 2014-02-25 17:07, Michael Tuexen wrote: >>>>> On Feb 24, 2014, at 5:32 PM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >>>>>> 1. Section 4: >>>>>> Shouldn't this section discuss the priority field? >>>>> I added in the list of consistent properties: >>>>> >>>>> the priority of the data Channel. >>>>> >>>>> and in the text below that enumeration: >>>>> >>>>> ?????? >>>> >>>> Yes, text for this needs to be figured out. >>> We don't define at this place what priority is. The only point is that both >>> sides use the same priority. >> >> Okay, I agree, the Priority is a property of the established Data >> Channel, and the values and implication of these needs to be defined in >> the Data Channel draft and not here. > OK. The only thing we might want to change in this ID is the type of the > Priority field. It is currently a signed integer, we might want to use > an unsigned integer. But that is a different issue, which I'll need to > discuss with Randell. Ok, lets try to get the Priority part resolved so that the appropriate type and pointer can be get included here. >> >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 2. Section 4: >>>>>> >>>>>> The method >>>>>> used to determine which side uses odd or even is based on the >>>>>> underlying DTLS connection role when used in WebRTC, with the side >>>>>> acting as the DTLS client using even stream identifiers. >>>>>> >>>>>> Isn't this unnecessary using the vague word of WebRTC instead of simply >>>>>> pointing to the DTLS roles of the established data channel? >>>> >>>>> The point is that in the WebRTC you use DCEP/SCTP/DTLS/UDP and therefore >>>>> you can refer to the DTLS role. However, you could use DCEP/SCTP/IP >>>>> or DCEP/SCTP/UDP/IP or DCEP/SCTP over something not involving DTLS. >>>>> In that case DTLS is not used and you can not refer to the DTLS role. >>>>> That is why the restriction is used. >>>> >>>> Ok, if that concern then you still should be able to write a normative >>>> specification under the condition that it is SCTP over DTLS. If not how >>>> do you determine that? Are suggesting just to hand way or point to a >>>> higher signaling layer. >>> So what about using: >>> >>> when using , the method used to >>> determine which side uses odd or even is based on the underlying DTLS >>> connection role: the side acting as the DTLS client MUST use Streams with even >>> SCTP stream identifiers, the side acting as the DTLS server MUST use Streams >>> with odd SCTP stream identifiers. >> >> I think that is fine for when using over DTLS. And to my understanding >> this do require DTLS? If not we need alternative text. > Our current use-case is for SCTP/DTLS. But we don't need DTLS except for > its security properties. However, if someone doesn't use DTLS, he has to > figure out how to determine the even/odd. This is covered by: > > To avoid glare in opening Channels, each side MUST use Streams with > either even or odd SCTP stream identifiers when sending a DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN > message. > When using , the method used to > determine which side uses odd or even is based on the underlying DTLS > connection role: the side acting as the DTLS client MUST use Streams with even > SCTP stream identifiers, the side acting as the DTLS server MUST use Streams > with odd SCTP stream identifiers. > > However, we can't provide a method in the general case... Yes, as long as you use DTLS it is well specified. The issue I am trying to get my head around is if this specification and the data channel is possible to use without DTLS. This is one of the few (only?) things that requires it beyond the security features. Thus, should this be explicitly noted as saying, if you don't use DTLS you will be required to find an alternative solution to the roles. >> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> 6. Section 7: >>>>>> >>>>>> I think this section can be beefed up a bit. First make clear that the >>>>>> Data Channel's required usage of DTLS ensures that the message integrity >>>>>> and possible source authentication as well as confidentiality. Then >>>>>> going over any security risks with a malicous peer using this protocol. >>>>>> Can a malicous side screw up the peer using this protocol? What are the >>>>>> implications? >>>> >>>>> Just to double check: Aren't the referenced documents the ones which >>>>> discuss all security stuff in one place? >>>> >>>> The security document do discuss system level important aspects. But, >>>> from my perspective, details that are very specific to this protocol >>>> should be discussed in this document. >>>> >>>> I think this is highly relevant in this document as there are others >>>> that are interested in using it. >>> OK. Any concrete suggestions what should be covered? >> >> I can at least think of potentially relevant issues: >> >> - Exhaustion attacks by opening all 64k Data channels > You setup 64k streams anyway and it wasn't a problem... >> - Attempting to overflow buffers by including 64k of Strings in Label >> and Protocol fields in the OPEN message. > OK. >> - Attempt to get undocumented behaviour by sending Reliability >> Parameters that aren't defined. Or use out of range Priorities or >> message types. > This is also covered explicitly in the Procedures section by > > If a DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message is received on an already used SCTP stream or > there are any problems with parameters within the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message or > the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message itself is not well-formed, > the receiver MUST close the corresponding channel using the procedure described > in and MUST NOT send a > DATA_CHANNEL_ACK message in response to the received message. >> >> But that I guess is most of the things I can think of to attempt to >> break the protocol. > I agree. >> >> Then it is the question of requiring DTLS to ensure it is safe from >> Privacy, Confidentiality, Integrity and possibly source authentication >> concerns. > Sure. > > So what about the following Security Considerations section: > The DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN messages contains two variable length fields: > the protocol and the label. A receiver must be prepared to receive > DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN messages where these field have the maximum length of > 65535 bytes. Error cases like the use of inconsistent lengths fields, > unknown parameter values or violation the odd/even rule must also be handled > by closing the corresponding channel. An end-point must also be prepared > that the peer open the maximum number of data channels. Maybe: "peer open" / "peer attempts to open" > When using DCEP over SCTP encapsulated in DTLS as specified in > , security properties > like privacy, integrity, and source authentication can be provided by DTLS. > If DCEP is used without running over DTLS, this is not the case. You skirt around the issue if you are mandating DTLS or not. One interesting question here is if this is one case where DTLS shall be the mandatory to implement security solution, or if it is okay to leave it open to redefention in the different contexts, as in the case of WebRTC the transports draft will mandate the inclusion of DTLS. Then the next step is the question of which DTLS ciphers and key-derivation methods that shall be supported. This later is likely an pointer to the security-arch. > For general considerations see and > . > > Does this address your issues? Mostly, thanks for the proposal. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Tue May 13 08:28:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E9441A0117 for ; Tue, 13 May 2014 08:28:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8ZkYfZCCs1sv for ; Tue, 13 May 2014 08:28:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0866C1A00E3 for ; Tue, 13 May 2014 08:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.29] (cpe-173-172-146-58.tx.res.rr.com [173.172.146.58]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.14.8/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s4DFRvFp005196 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 13 May 2014 10:27:59 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-173-172-146-58.tx.res.rr.com [173.172.146.58] claimed to be [10.0.1.29] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Ben Campbell In-Reply-To: <53723549.1040200@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 10:27:58 -0500 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 421687678.277234-758e7991d4f38dc34d665bdc2e2a88dc Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <27EF9E34-2BAE-4B05-B602-9C502EDF4896@nostrum.com> References: <53723549.1040200@ericsson.com> To: Magnus Westerlund X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/ATECBVwrG_cFMlSTUDsdnR-jEj8 Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] WGLC review of draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 15:28:10 -0000 Hi Magnus, Your responses address all of my concerns. Thanks! /Ben On May 13, 2014, at 10:07 AM, Magnus Westerlund = wrote: > Hi Ben, >=20 > Thanks for the review, please see reply inline. >=20 > On 2014-05-09 23:56, Ben Campbell wrote: >> Hi, >>=20 >> This draft seems well constructed. I don't have much in the way of >> technical comments, but do have a few extremely minor/editorial >> comments: >>=20 >> Thanks! >>=20 >> /Ben >>=20 >> ---------------------- >>=20 >> -- 4.1, 2nd to last bullet: >>=20 >> Can there be a reference for " RTCP timer reconsideration " >=20 > Yes we can add a section reference into RFC 3550 for this. >>=20 >> -- 4.3, last paragraph: "RTP receivers MUST follow the >> recommendations in Section 4.3 of [RFC7160] in order to support ..." >>=20 >> I assume that you mean that receivers MUST support the >> recommendations because they need to support multiple clock rates. A >> strained interpretation could assume that, if they want to support >> multiple clock rates, they MUST support..." >=20 > Correct, will look at reformulating this. Because I believe an WebRTC > receiver must be required to support multiple clock rates. >>=20 >> -- 4.5, first paragraph: " ... support for multiplexing RTP data >> packets and RTCP control packets on a single transport-layer flow for >> each RTP session is REQUIRED, provided it is negotiated in the >> signalling channel ..." >>=20 >> I assume the intent is that support...is REQUIRED, but only _used_ if >> negotiated? As written, it seems to say _support_ is both REQUIRED >> and negotiated. >=20 > Yes, required to implement support for, use based on negotiation. Will > take a look at proposing another formulation. >=20 >>=20 >> (A similar construction occurs in 4.6, 2nd paragraph) >=20 > Will take a look at that too. >=20 >>=20 >> -- 5.2.2, last paragraph: >>=20 >> If I understand 6904 correctly, you signal the use of encryption for >> each header you want to encrypt, right? If so, then how is >> "explicitly disabled through ... signalling" different than "not >> signalled"? If it's the same thing, then this comes perilously close >> saying "... RECOMMENDED that the encryption be used ... unless you >> don't want to." >=20 > Yes, you are correct, assuming that signalling is SDP. Which not all = on > this mailing list assumes. One way to resolve this is to actually = tease > the two parts apart. First of all it is recommended to encrypt it. > Secondly, this may be controlled through an API or signalling. >=20 >=20 >>=20 >> (I have no objection to the "explicitly disabled through the API" ) >>=20 >> -- Figures 1 and 2: >>=20 >> Any chance of centering these? >=20 > This is an bug in the version 2.0 of XML2RFC. Can't do anything about > until someone fixes this, or hand adjust it. >=20 >>=20 >> -- 12.1.3: >>=20 >> How does (or will) DART fit in here? Seems like it might have >> something to say, but I'm not sure how the timing relates. >=20 > So this text is the high level teaser to DART work from my = perspective. > The Dart work will have to get into some of the more subtler issues. = To > my understanding the DART output will be part of the reference chain > here. This document reference [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos] > which in its turn will reference DART. You will also likely to be able > to reach the DART document through draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports. >=20 > If the DART document becomes available and seen as ready prior to this > having gone to far down the publication process we can reconsider if > this should have a direct reference or not. For now I would leave it = out. >=20 > Cheers >=20 > Magnus Westerlund >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Tue May 13 09:23:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB98F1A00DD for ; Tue, 13 May 2014 09:23:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qUGIVpl_TEpT for ; Tue, 13 May 2014 09:23:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-n.franken.de (drew.ipv6.franken.de [IPv6:2001:638:a02:a001:20e:cff:fe4a:feaa]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DB2A1A00E3 for ; Tue, 13 May 2014 09:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.225.7.42] (unknown [194.95.73.101]) (Authenticated sender: macmic) by mail-n.franken.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDDC41C1047F4; Tue, 13 May 2014 17:51:35 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Michael Tuexen In-Reply-To: <537239AD.9040000@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 17:51:34 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <980A88B9-5DBB-4A96-8F3F-4F77D64BE22C@lurchi.franken.de> References: <530B740E.4090707@ericsson.com> <53160FBB.4070401@ericsson.com> <1904CA30-1112-44D4-8C6F-F15F1EF1BF9B@lurchi.franken.de> <534D566B.3040905@ericsson.com> <537239AD.9040000@ericsson.com> To: Magnus Westerlund X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/UfEXtToswLVXxnlnzHOKYjYSEtQ Cc: draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol@tools.ietf.org, "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Review comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-03 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 16:23:48 -0000 On 13 May 2014, at 17:26, Magnus Westerlund = wrote: > Hi, >=20 > Please see inline. >=20 > On 2014-05-13 08:29, Michael Tuexen wrote: >> On 15 Apr 2014, at 17:55, Magnus Westerlund = wrote: >>> On 2014-04-10 13:50, Michael Tuexen wrote: >>>> On 04 Mar 2014, at 17:39, Magnus Westerlund = wrote: >>>>> On 2014-02-25 17:07, Michael Tuexen wrote: >>>>>> On Feb 24, 2014, at 5:32 PM, Magnus Westerlund = wrote: >>>>>>> 1. Section 4: >>>>>>> Shouldn't this section discuss the priority field? >>>>>> I added in the list of consistent properties: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> the priority of the data Channel. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> and in the text below that enumeration: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> ?????? >>>>>=20 >>>>> Yes, text for this needs to be figured out. >>>> We don't define at this place what priority is. The only point is = that both >>>> sides use the same priority. >>>=20 >>> Okay, I agree, the Priority is a property of the established Data >>> Channel, and the values and implication of these needs to be defined = in >>> the Data Channel draft and not here. >=20 >> OK. The only thing we might want to change in this ID is the type of = the >> Priority field. It is currently a signed integer, we might want to = use >> an unsigned integer. But that is a different issue, which I'll need = to >> discuss with Randell. >=20 > Ok, lets try to get the Priority part resolved so that the appropriate > type and pointer can be get included here. Randell and Salvatore also think it makes sense to use an unsigned int. I'll change that. >=20 >>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 2. Section 4: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> The method >>>>>>> used to determine which side uses odd or even is based on the >>>>>>> underlying DTLS connection role when used in WebRTC, with the = side >>>>>>> acting as the DTLS client using even stream identifiers. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Isn't this unnecessary using the vague word of WebRTC instead of = simply >>>>>>> pointing to the DTLS roles of the established data channel? >>>>>=20 >>>>>> The point is that in the WebRTC you use DCEP/SCTP/DTLS/UDP and = therefore >>>>>> you can refer to the DTLS role. However, you could use = DCEP/SCTP/IP >>>>>> or DCEP/SCTP/UDP/IP or DCEP/SCTP over something not involving = DTLS. >>>>>> In that case DTLS is not used and you can not refer to the DTLS = role. >>>>>> That is why the restriction is used. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Ok, if that concern then you still should be able to write a = normative >>>>> specification under the condition that it is SCTP over DTLS. If = not how >>>>> do you determine that? Are suggesting just to hand way or point to = a >>>>> higher signaling layer. >>>> So what about using: >>>>=20 >>>> when using , the = method used to >>>> determine which side uses odd or even is based on the underlying = DTLS >>>> connection role: the side acting as the DTLS client MUST use = Streams with even >>>> SCTP stream identifiers, the side acting as the DTLS server MUST = use Streams >>>> with odd SCTP stream identifiers. >>>=20 >>> I think that is fine for when using over DTLS. And to my = understanding >>> this do require DTLS? If not we need alternative text. >=20 >> Our current use-case is for SCTP/DTLS. But we don't need DTLS except = for >> its security properties. However, if someone doesn't use DTLS, he has = to >> figure out how to determine the even/odd. This is covered by: >>=20 >> To avoid glare in opening Channels, each side MUST use Streams = with=20 >> either even or odd SCTP stream identifiers when sending a = DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN >> message. >> When using , the = method used to >> determine which side uses odd or even is based on the underlying DTLS >> connection role: the side acting as the DTLS client MUST use Streams = with even >> SCTP stream identifiers, the side acting as the DTLS server MUST use = Streams >> with odd SCTP stream identifiers. >>=20 >> However, we can't provide a method in the general case... >=20 > Yes, as long as you use DTLS it is well specified. The issue I am = trying > to get my head around is if this specification and the data channel is > possible to use without DTLS. This is one of the few (only?) things = that > requires it beyond the security features. Thus, should this be > explicitly noted as saying, if you don't use DTLS you will be required > to find an alternative solution to the roles. Isn't this be said by the first sentence of the paragraph? It states the requirement of having a rule and provides on the second sentence such a rule for the case where DTLS is used. Best regards Michael >=20 >=20 >=20 >>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> 6. Section 7: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> I think this section can be beefed up a bit. First make clear = that the >>>>>>> Data Channel's required usage of DTLS ensures that the message = integrity >>>>>>> and possible source authentication as well as confidentiality. = Then >>>>>>> going over any security risks with a malicous peer using this = protocol. >>>>>>> Can a malicous side screw up the peer using this protocol? What = are the >>>>>>> implications? >>>>>=20 >>>>>> Just to double check: Aren't the referenced documents the ones = which >>>>>> discuss all security stuff in one place? >>>>>=20 >>>>> The security document do discuss system level important aspects. = But, >>>>> from my perspective, details that are very specific to this = protocol >>>>> should be discussed in this document. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I think this is highly relevant in this document as there are = others >>>>> that are interested in using it. >>>> OK. Any concrete suggestions what should be covered? >>>=20 >>> I can at least think of potentially relevant issues: >>>=20 >>> - Exhaustion attacks by opening all 64k Data channels >> You setup 64k streams anyway and it wasn't a problem... >>> - Attempting to overflow buffers by including 64k of Strings in = Label >>> and Protocol fields in the OPEN message. >> OK. >>> - Attempt to get undocumented behaviour by sending Reliability >>> Parameters that aren't defined. Or use out of range Priorities or >>> message types. >> This is also covered explicitly in the Procedures section by >>=20 >> If a DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message is received on an already used SCTP = stream or >> there are any problems with parameters within the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN = message or >> the DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN message itself is not well-formed, >> the receiver MUST close the corresponding channel using the procedure = described >> in and MUST NOT send = a >> DATA_CHANNEL_ACK message in response to the received message. >>>=20 >>> But that I guess is most of the things I can think of to attempt to >>> break the protocol. >> I agree. >>>=20 >>> Then it is the question of requiring DTLS to ensure it is safe from >>> Privacy, Confidentiality, Integrity and possibly source = authentication >>> concerns. >> Sure. >>=20 >> So what about the following Security Considerations section: >=20 >> The DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN messages contains two variable length = fields: >> the protocol and the label. A receiver must be prepared to receive >> DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN messages where these field have the maximum length = of >> 65535 bytes. Error cases like the use of inconsistent lengths fields, >> unknown parameter values or violation the odd/even rule must also be = handled >> by closing the corresponding channel. An end-point must also be = prepared >> that the peer open the maximum number of data channels. >=20 > Maybe: "peer open" / "peer attempts to open" >=20 >> When using DCEP over SCTP encapsulated in DTLS as specified in >> , security = properties >> like privacy, integrity, and source authentication can be provided by = DTLS. >> If DCEP is used without running over DTLS, this is not the case. >=20 > You skirt around the issue if you are mandating DTLS or not. One > interesting question here is if this is one case where DTLS shall be = the > mandatory to implement security solution, or if it is okay to leave it > open to redefention in the different contexts, as in the case of = WebRTC > the transports draft will mandate the inclusion of DTLS. >=20 > Then the next step is the question of which DTLS ciphers and > key-derivation methods that shall be supported. This later is likely = an > pointer to the security-arch. >=20 >> For general considerations see and >> . >=20 >>=20 >> Does this address your issues? >=20 > Mostly, thanks for the proposal. >=20 > Cheers >=20 > Magnus Westerlund >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 From nobody Tue May 13 09:45:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBBDA1A013F for ; Tue, 13 May 2014 09:45:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4tNLrGJ9hoaw for ; Tue, 13 May 2014 09:45:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x233.google.com (mail-wi0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 165851A008E for ; Tue, 13 May 2014 09:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f179.google.com with SMTP id bs8so956300wib.12 for ; Tue, 13 May 2014 09:45:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=x8ggPpdlJhE867ugnlc6ugmtbSdlG8ggUplNkzwn3Y4=; b=MOv+5dbu5grNbmnfCwypMwiXeECCXEIDBP6gFWlOpuhs3lAJU5r/HEga/u3x1MZUZu TW2WlChh927Mt1QAX1ov15WCAO2prsPok+5B6D0spdt7MFwre0Z/MkFQsNkrT/n4TlAW blG5vG+lefrkauh+l54NjQut0wp824dneAJ7X0SsX38OV9qb6ecHJm8O6rPjPtWwZD61 qE8LT8qNoUCbV/4XZj5lYL4p6w+YPsCL6AFaUAY6W5AjZ0ZKZCUEUUs05Epa8FPsIKxq lps2NtV3VNKJeafuAxaVL4JS1ceYAFfDD8CRXv980ZZTXL78Wlbhfw4OWa9FiymafV19 BzOg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.91.175 with SMTP id cf15mr28306304wjb.5.1399999513293; Tue, 13 May 2014 09:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.235.163 with HTTP; Tue, 13 May 2014 09:45:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F69E8@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> <5370D1E3.7040809@alvestrand.no> <5370F349.7050006@alvestrand.no> <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F8091@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82F83FD@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 09:45:13 -0700 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Silvia Pfeiffer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/yxbNN-qoGK2xQid-qVus_h8fpjU Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 16:45:22 -0000 On 13 May 2014 00:54, Silvia Pfeiffer wrote: >> The name "createOffer" implies that the SDP delivered as the result of >> createOffer is the one to use as an offer in negotiation. Looking at the way >> this mechanism has evolved, this is probably only true anymore if one is >> prepared to send the offer immediately, and then to trickle ICE candidates. >> To obtain an SDP to use as an offer in negotiations without trickle ICE, one >> has to call setLocal, wait for "end of candidates" and then read >> pc.localDescription. >> >> So "createOffer" in fact does not create an offer, but an initial (or >> updated) local description that is then fed into setLocalDescription to >> start the ICE gathering. >> >> Do you agree with this observation? If you do, shouldn't we rename >> createOffer to something more generic like "createLocalDescription" or >> similar? "createOffer" does not create the offer (at least it does not do so >> in case of non-trickling) but the input to setLocal... >> > > I agree, the name is very misleading now. I disagree. Though I don't find any of this particularly intuitive, the response to createOffer is still an offer that can be used to negotiate a session. The fact that it cannot be used immediately with some classes of peer is unfortunate, but it's still good for negotiating with browsers. So yes, this new createOffer is only good for negotiating with a peer that supports trickle ICE. I think that's better than what we had previously, which is *no idea what the browser was supposed to do*, as demonstrated by the fact that the only two implementations in existence did the complete opposite thing. From nobody Tue May 13 11:54:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22A4A1A010C for ; Tue, 13 May 2014 11:54:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vLIsvlI84WeL for ; Tue, 13 May 2014 11:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A77C1A0096 for ; Tue, 13 May 2014 11:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=61964 helo=mangole.lan) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WkHq7-0006wa-NF; Tue, 13 May 2014 19:54:12 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: <5DB48F3D-980D-43CF-83BF-4E12BFC8B794@vidyo.com> Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 19:54:09 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20140423132741.9210.61684.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5357C102.2060606@ericsson.com> <5DB48F3D-980D-43CF-83BF-4E12BFC8B794@vidyo.com> To: Alex Eleftheriadis X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: -28 X-Mythic-Debug: Threshold = On = Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/fbnQ3HT-1QoOLr9TIBwOUDEDlbA Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 18:54:26 -0000 Hi Alex, Thanks for the comments. These all look like reasonable suggestions, = that we can try to incorporate into the next version. Colin On 12 May 2014, at 07:51, Alex Eleftheriadis wrote: > Hi Magnus/all.=20 >=20 > Great document. I took the time to write down some comments, most = editorial but not all. I list them below sorted by page number.=20 >=20 > Regards, >=20 > --Alex >=20 > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * >=20 > -- p. 17, Section 6 >=20 > The first paragraph seems to suggest that the overhead is always = non-trivial. In fact, techniques such as the one mentioned in Section = 6.1 can be done with very small overhead (bits) and, specifically, = without requiring "a lower base encoding quality". The paragraph can be = read to suggest that such lowering is *always* required for robustness.=20= >=20 > -- p. 23, 3rd paragraph >=20 > "both effective congestion control" -> delete "both". >=20 > -- p. 26, 2nd paragraph >=20 > "Thus it is possible for multiple source packet streams to share = encoded streams (but not packet streams), but this is an implementation = choice to try to utilise such optimisations." >=20 > I am not sure I understand this. An example would help. (The sentence = needs a rewrite anyway.) >=20 > -- p. 26, 3rd paragraph >=20 > "and don't forces a end-point to change" -> "and does not force an = end-point to change" >=20 > -- p. 27, 1st paragraph >=20 > "can request that the ... to be the same" -> delete "to".=20 >=20 > "this allow for synchronization" -> "this allows for synchronization" >=20 > -- p. 27, 3rd paragraph >=20 > "that receives an MediaStreamTrack" -> "that receives a = MediaStreamTrack" >=20 > "for its the sent streams" -> "for its sent streams". >=20 > "etc followed" -> "etc., followed" >=20 > -- p. 30, 2nd paragraph >=20 > "possible to accomplished by establishing" -> "possible to be = accomplished by establishing" >=20 > -- p. 31, 1st paragraph >=20 > "It it believed" -> "It is believed" >=20 > Also, the statement in that last sentence: "It is believed that these = advantages outweigh the limitations in debugging power." is putting it = mildly :-) >=20 > -- p. 34, 4th paragraph >=20 > "the second the actual mechanism to prioritize packets" -> "the second = consisting of the actual mechanism to prioritize packets". >=20 > -- p. 36, 12.2.1 title >=20 > "Media Source" -> "Media Source Identification" >=20 > --p. 36, 2nd and 3rd paragraphs >=20 > IN the 2nd paragraph it is stated "to avoid exposing the SSRC/CSRC = name space to JavaScript applications". In the 3rd: "This information = [audio level for each contributing source] can usefully be exposed in = the user interface." >=20 > To make this point, you need to explain how the audio level = information is going to be carried across the API or point somewhere.=20 >=20 > -- p. 37, 1st, 2nd, and 4th paragraphs >=20 > "both end-points uses an new SSRC" -> "both end-points use a new SSRC" >=20 > "reject a end-points usage of an SSRC" -> "reject an end-point's usage = of an SSRC" >=20 > "While is is clearly considered" -> "While it is clearly considered" >=20 > -- general >=20 > Section 11 appears to require at least one more editorial pass. >=20 > Make sure you use British or US English consistently (i.e., optimise = vs. optimize :-) >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Apr 23, 2014, at 4:32 PM, Magnus Westerlund = wrote: >=20 >> WG, >>=20 >> We authors have been doing some editing on this version to take care = of >> the last known issues. This includes the text that has been discussed = on >> the list lately. It also contains an expanded example about RTCP >> bandwidth (see Section 7.2). Further we have reviewed the terminology >> usage in the document, and applied the AVTEXT grouping taxonomy. >>=20 >> So, we authors now believe this to be ready for WG last call. >>=20 >> Cheers >>=20 >> Magnus >>=20 >> On 2014-04-23 15:27, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >>>=20 >>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories. >>> This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in = WEB-browsers Working Group of the IETF. >>>=20 >>> Title : Web Real-Time Communication (WebRTC): Media = Transport and Use of RTP >>> Authors : Colin Perkins >>> Magnus Westerlund >>> Joerg Ott >>> Filename : draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13.txt >>> Pages : 45 >>> Date : 2014-04-23 >>>=20 >>> Abstract: >>> The Web Real-Time Communication (WebRTC) framework provides support >>> for direct interactive rich communication using audio, video, text, >>> collaboration, games, etc. between two peers' web-browsers. This >>> memo describes the media transport aspects of the WebRTC framework. >>> It specifies how the Real-time Transport Protocol (RTP) is used in >>> the WebRTC context, and gives requirements for which RTP features, >>> profiles, and extensions need to be supported. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage/ >>>=20 >>> There's also a htmlized version available at: >>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 >>>=20 >>> A diff from the previous version is available at: >>> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission >>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>>=20 >>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> I-D-Announce mailing list >>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce >>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >>=20 >> Magnus Westerlund >>=20 >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 >> F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 >> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb --=20 Colin Perkins http://csperkins.org/ From nobody Tue May 13 15:06:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 677EA1A01E2 for ; Tue, 13 May 2014 15:06:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fe9OZ9w1hCks for ; Tue, 13 May 2014 15:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [93.93.130.6]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFB901A01A5 for ; Tue, 13 May 2014 15:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=52666 helo=mangole.lan) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WkKqE-0001Cv-Lj; Tue, 13 May 2014 23:06:31 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: <042901cf6d21$82133940$8639abc0$@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 23:06:29 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <271EFE91-DA13-4863-B45B-46E2032E217F@csperkins.org> References: <042901cf6d21$82133940$8639abc0$@gmail.com> To: Roni Even X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: -28 X-Mythic-Debug: Threshold = On = Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/MEsa-3Vo4TBLCsBbI2cMfTKniJo Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 22:06:40 -0000 Hi Roni, On 11 May 2014, at 15:01, Roni Even wrote: > Just nits > =20 > 1. Section 8 last paragraph =93RTP XR=94 should be =93RTCP XR=94 > =20 > 2. The last sentence in the paragraph after figure 1 =93it it = believed=94 > =20 > 3. In section 12.2.2 bullet 4 =93While is is clearly=94. Fixed, thanks. > BTW: this case can be a self-view in the mixer case which may be a = feature and not a bug. It may also be a loop-back. In cases where the loop-back/self-view is desired, won=92t a different = SSRC be used to distinguish from an accidental loop? --=20 Colin Perkins http://csperkins.org/ From nobody Wed May 14 00:21:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C087F1A0273 for ; Wed, 14 May 2014 00:21:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LCNokaBT3kxi for ; Wed, 14 May 2014 00:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 038E01A0271 for ; Wed, 14 May 2014 00:21:37 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-f79a86d0000010e9-b2-5373197aefea Received: from ESESSHC014.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 5F.45.04329.A7913735; Wed, 14 May 2014 09:21:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.62) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.174.1; Wed, 14 May 2014 09:21:30 +0200 Message-ID: <53731974.4030209@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 09:21:24 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Colin Perkins , Roni Even References: <042901cf6d21$82133940$8639abc0$@gmail.com> <271EFE91-DA13-4863-B45B-46E2032E217F@csperkins.org> In-Reply-To: <271EFE91-DA13-4863-B45B-46E2032E217F@csperkins.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrNLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvjW6VZHGwQf9bU4vlL08wWvxtZ7ZY +6+d3YHZY9r9+2weO2fdZfdYsuQnUwBzFJdNSmpOZllqkb5dAlfGgklbWQp+cVcsOniUrYFx E2cXIyeHhICJRNe72awQtpjEhXvr2boYuTiEBI4ySsxuvs4E4SxnlGjbcgWsildAW+JSw1Ym EJtFQFVi39kJbCA2m4CFxM0fjWC2qECwxIaHf9kh6gUlTs58wgJiiwh4Slz5cArMZhYQlXj1 cAoziC0sECCxp/8qC8SyjYwSr7r7wZo5BRwlHi5+C1TEAXSeuERPYxBEr4HEkUVzWCFseYnm rbPB5ggB3dbQ1ME6gVFoFpLVs5C0zELSsoCReRWjaHFqcXFuupGRXmpRZnJxcX6eXl5qySZG YGgf3PLbagfjweeOhxgFOBiVeHgXxBYFC7EmlhVX5h5ilOZgURLnnbTIPVhIID2xJDU7NbUg tSi+qDQntfgQIxMHp1QDY6KbFNeBHClP1id/180Q0D29aE9mwxvpx0yd6Xtkp2SfSZBm8xE8 o+G7bbbCYUWnw8v/Ki+89/dqcE+H86kZu8v/rw1Pvla9u5plx5anoSdrmTwfJkcrTC5XOsV1 zOmV411/lq+aM0rLXy55urZu5dSdjnM5vT2SBcWWXlXQ+ji74rrv0++90kosxRmJhlrMRcWJ ALHnCudOAgAA Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/4JoVDmQwTPzZoBErz_vNgyXA06Y Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 07:21:40 -0000 On 2014-05-14 00:06, Colin Perkins wrote: > Hi Roni, > > On 11 May 2014, at 15:01, Roni Even wrote: >> Just nits >> >> 1. Section 8 last paragraph “RTP XR” should be “RTCP XR” >> >> 2. The last sentence in the paragraph after figure 1 “it it >> believed” >> >> 3. In section 12.2.2 bullet 4 “While is is clearly”. > > Fixed, thanks. > >> BTW: this case can be a self-view in the mixer case which may be a >> feature and not a bug. It may also be a loop-back. > > In cases where the loop-back/self-view is desired, won’t a different > SSRC be used to distinguish from an accidental loop? > First of all I expect a self-view to simply take the local mediaStreamTrack and display that, rather than loop it through the RTP mixer. If this occurs deliberately, to get it to work it will need to be provided as a MST that the mixer offer the WebRTC endpoint, thus originates deliberately under its own SSRC. See discussion of media forwarding in Section 12.1.2. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Wed May 14 10:34:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF1B41A0157 for ; Wed, 14 May 2014 10:34:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ixNwBN_LrRq2 for ; Wed, 14 May 2014 10:34:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x230.google.com (mail-ig0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::230]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 548F61A032A for ; Wed, 14 May 2014 10:34:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-f176.google.com with SMTP id hl10so6862444igb.3 for ; Wed, 14 May 2014 10:34:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=wp3i1OSjfOwUtBxGaIoH+4nqFgJlrTarte8bPM+yI6Y=; b=K/hEiAZQmw9ERuSGcJN1Zq9L9ZOLaE4i/9T3gij/kJTWJtlg/EKvyENSdhiO4QYKM2 nQbAWuPA7ZRNt2UiaISB3Trq0mNiBbchloCC7AggOEMwBU2GZBwrVXGdA5HsgYuoqhPF 9nexSnv3xxi/zl/i2Hu8GCIG8/KAqFBne4YskZJWzABRAmamd2smUdDFsJrpKgwqBdWn 2TA8fCOiK9k/xICal1JVtwlgzEsz7EvbidfCHp7/HPF+D/5SUTr1QG738sqO/pN8bMcq +9W00d2JeEKr23YBLsv3kSTi94JBwUFUyxkUJohQv1g16m49AmKEPQTx018RA8KJ0YlH I+ow== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.22.37 with SMTP id a5mr67487949igf.30.1400088842582; Wed, 14 May 2014 10:34:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.200.204 with HTTP; Wed, 14 May 2014 10:34:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 10:34:02 -0700 Message-ID: From: Ted Hardie To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , "public-webrtc@w3.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b10c9911dc0c804f95f9641 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/REPY-NNuN-CszdTfHX7F1Lghcwc Subject: [rtcweb] Meeting recordings for upcoming interim X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 17:34:28 -0000 --047d7b10c9911dc0c804f95f9641 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Just to confirm this, the audio visual folk have set things up so that the meetings (both rtcweb and webrtc) should be recorded. It will take two days post meeting for them to emerge and probably a day or so after that to be posted. I apologize that I cannot make them available in real-time, but they will available. regards, Ted --047d7b10c9911dc0c804f95f9641 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just to confirm this, the audio visual folk have set things up so th= at the meetings (both rtcweb and webrtc) should be recorded.=C2=A0 It will = take two days post meeting for them to emerge and probably a day or so afte= r that to be posted.=C2=A0 I apologize that I cannot make them available in= real-time, but they will available.

regards,

Ted
--047d7b10c9911dc0c804f95f9641-- From nobody Wed May 14 13:30:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3FD01A00FC for ; Wed, 14 May 2014 13:30:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UdsfC-cbR9rG for ; Wed, 14 May 2014 13:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB5E21A00C3 for ; Wed, 14 May 2014 13:30:20 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-f798c6d000001521-91-5373d255e621 Received: from ESESSHC015.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id B0.BA.05409.552D3735; Wed, 14 May 2014 22:30:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.65) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.174.1; Wed, 14 May 2014 22:30:12 +0200 Message-ID: <5373D254.50804@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 22:30:12 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Tuexen References: <530B740E.4090707@ericsson.com> <53160FBB.4070401@ericsson.com> <1904CA30-1112-44D4-8C6F-F15F1EF1BF9B@lurchi.franken.de> <534D566B.3040905@ericsson.com> <537239AD.9040000@ericsson.com> <980A88B9-5DBB-4A96-8F3F-4F77D64BE22C@lurchi.franken.de> In-Reply-To: <980A88B9-5DBB-4A96-8F3F-4F77D64BE22C@lurchi.franken.de> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrDLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvjW7opeJgg7MnhS1WH97LZnGxaQmj xdp/7ewOzB5Llvxk8tjQsoPJ48vlz2wBzFFcNimpOZllqUX6dglcGXcW/GAs2CVfsfnaYsYG xoOSXYycHBICJhLv931hhLDFJC7cW8/WxcjFISRwlFHi8/Sj7BDOckaJ9oWvWEGqeAU0JU4+ XMYMYrMIqEqcOD0dLM4mYCFx80cjG4gtKhAsseHhX3aIekGJkzOfsIDYIgKmEgeXzwOzmQWi JTpu3gSbIyzgLbFsRSvU5vdMElcungFr5hRwlbh3qwNoAQfQeeISPY1BEL16ElOutjBC2PIS zVtng80REtCWaGjqYJ3AKDQLyepZSFpmIWlZwMi8ilG0OLU4KTfdyFgvtSgzubg4P08vL7Vk EyMwuA9u+a26g/HyG8dDjAIcjEo8vArri4OFWBPLiitzDzFKc7AoifN+ueUTLCSQnliSmp2a WpBaFF9UmpNafIiRiYNTqoFRuIZne93eVWb2ZzbHX92wfvftE3z/NUz0nx/6qy4nVJd4aG9+ ffbkebdV1rXy7WiPmFriXWB0SfLWDfntFyKNrTonrYr3UZVvvVjVxl54+YBJtbhe0LvKTr+D 8xdFL1Kp3Vtg2+u/pYFP7fwViZ8zV03MnrK35+b/sN6LjW+/PJ5ZHWgb0HZNiaU4I9FQi7mo OBEAqOt8IU8CAAA= Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/q-mVT8Y8OnvmDcW7RnQ6pRS2KM8 Cc: draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol@tools.ietf.org, "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Review comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-03 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 20:30:23 -0000 On 2014-05-13 17:51, Michael Tuexen wrote: > On 13 May 2014, at 17:26, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2. Section 4: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The method >>>>>>>> used to determine which side uses odd or even is based on the >>>>>>>> underlying DTLS connection role when used in WebRTC, with the side >>>>>>>> acting as the DTLS client using even stream identifiers. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Isn't this unnecessary using the vague word of WebRTC instead of simply >>>>>>>> pointing to the DTLS roles of the established data channel? >>>>>> >>>>>>> The point is that in the WebRTC you use DCEP/SCTP/DTLS/UDP and therefore >>>>>>> you can refer to the DTLS role. However, you could use DCEP/SCTP/IP >>>>>>> or DCEP/SCTP/UDP/IP or DCEP/SCTP over something not involving DTLS. >>>>>>> In that case DTLS is not used and you can not refer to the DTLS role. >>>>>>> That is why the restriction is used. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ok, if that concern then you still should be able to write a normative >>>>>> specification under the condition that it is SCTP over DTLS. If not how >>>>>> do you determine that? Are suggesting just to hand way or point to a >>>>>> higher signaling layer. >>>>> So what about using: >>>>> >>>>> when using , the method used to >>>>> determine which side uses odd or even is based on the underlying DTLS >>>>> connection role: the side acting as the DTLS client MUST use Streams with even >>>>> SCTP stream identifiers, the side acting as the DTLS server MUST use Streams >>>>> with odd SCTP stream identifiers. >>>> >>>> I think that is fine for when using over DTLS. And to my understanding >>>> this do require DTLS? If not we need alternative text. >> >>> Our current use-case is for SCTP/DTLS. But we don't need DTLS except for >>> its security properties. However, if someone doesn't use DTLS, he has to >>> figure out how to determine the even/odd. This is covered by: >>> >>> To avoid glare in opening Channels, each side MUST use Streams with >>> either even or odd SCTP stream identifiers when sending a DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN >>> message. >>> When using , the method used to >>> determine which side uses odd or even is based on the underlying DTLS >>> connection role: the side acting as the DTLS client MUST use Streams with even >>> SCTP stream identifiers, the side acting as the DTLS server MUST use Streams >>> with odd SCTP stream identifiers. >>> >>> However, we can't provide a method in the general case... >> >> Yes, as long as you use DTLS it is well specified. The issue I am trying >> to get my head around is if this specification and the data channel is >> possible to use without DTLS. This is one of the few (only?) things that >> requires it beyond the security features. Thus, should this be >> explicitly noted as saying, if you don't use DTLS you will be required >> to find an alternative solution to the roles. > Isn't this be said by the first sentence of the paragraph? It states > the requirement of having a rule and provides on the second sentence > such a rule for the case where DTLS is used. > Yes, it does. And I see no risk of this being misunderstood in the context of WebRTC usage. So I will accept this, but note that this may be one of these cases where some poor guy will swear over this specification not being clearer on how to apply it in other contexts. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Wed May 14 13:45:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F1FC1A01B7 for ; Wed, 14 May 2014 13:45:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ssKN9dK85Sno for ; Wed, 14 May 2014 13:45:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-n.franken.de (drew.ipv6.franken.de [IPv6:2001:638:a02:a001:20e:cff:fe4a:feaa]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 853F51A01AB for ; Wed, 14 May 2014 13:45:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.102] (p508F1E76.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.143.30.118]) (Authenticated sender: macmic) by mail-n.franken.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D8BF1C10491D; Wed, 14 May 2014 22:45:20 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Michael Tuexen In-Reply-To: <5373D254.50804@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 22:45:17 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <73724F06-8B39-4DAE-AD7D-AF53E4FC7CE5@lurchi.franken.de> References: <530B740E.4090707@ericsson.com> <53160FBB.4070401@ericsson.com> <1904CA30-1112-44D4-8C6F-F15F1EF1BF9B@lurchi.franken.de> <534D566B.3040905@ericsson.com> <537239AD.9040000@ericsson.com> <980A88B9-5DBB-4A96-8F3F-4F77D64BE22C@lurchi.franken.de> <5373D254.50804@ericsson.com> To: Magnus Westerlund X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/WEPI4hYrZ8ISB3ZSfZmF0-grQk0 Cc: draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol@tools.ietf.org, "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Review comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-03 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 20:45:32 -0000 On 14 May 2014, at 22:30, Magnus Westerlund = wrote: > On 2014-05-13 17:51, Michael Tuexen wrote: >> On 13 May 2014, at 17:26, Magnus Westerlund = wrote: >=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> 2. Section 4: >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> The method >>>>>>>>> used to determine which side uses odd or even is based on the >>>>>>>>> underlying DTLS connection role when used in WebRTC, with the = side >>>>>>>>> acting as the DTLS client using even stream identifiers. >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Isn't this unnecessary using the vague word of WebRTC instead = of simply >>>>>>>>> pointing to the DTLS roles of the established data channel? >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> The point is that in the WebRTC you use DCEP/SCTP/DTLS/UDP and = therefore >>>>>>>> you can refer to the DTLS role. However, you could use = DCEP/SCTP/IP >>>>>>>> or DCEP/SCTP/UDP/IP or DCEP/SCTP over something not involving = DTLS. >>>>>>>> In that case DTLS is not used and you can not refer to the DTLS = role. >>>>>>>> That is why the restriction is used. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Ok, if that concern then you still should be able to write a = normative >>>>>>> specification under the condition that it is SCTP over DTLS. If = not how >>>>>>> do you determine that? Are suggesting just to hand way or point = to a >>>>>>> higher signaling layer. >>>>>> So what about using: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> when using , = the method used to >>>>>> determine which side uses odd or even is based on the underlying = DTLS >>>>>> connection role: the side acting as the DTLS client MUST use = Streams with even >>>>>> SCTP stream identifiers, the side acting as the DTLS server MUST = use Streams >>>>>> with odd SCTP stream identifiers. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I think that is fine for when using over DTLS. And to my = understanding >>>>> this do require DTLS? If not we need alternative text. >>>=20 >>>> Our current use-case is for SCTP/DTLS. But we don't need DTLS = except for >>>> its security properties. However, if someone doesn't use DTLS, he = has to >>>> figure out how to determine the even/odd. This is covered by: >>>>=20 >>>> To avoid glare in opening Channels, each side MUST use Streams = with=20 >>>> either even or odd SCTP stream identifiers when sending a = DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN >>>> message. >>>> When using , the = method used to >>>> determine which side uses odd or even is based on the underlying = DTLS >>>> connection role: the side acting as the DTLS client MUST use = Streams with even >>>> SCTP stream identifiers, the side acting as the DTLS server MUST = use Streams >>>> with odd SCTP stream identifiers. >>>>=20 >>>> However, we can't provide a method in the general case... >>>=20 >>> Yes, as long as you use DTLS it is well specified. The issue I am = trying >>> to get my head around is if this specification and the data channel = is >>> possible to use without DTLS. This is one of the few (only?) things = that >>> requires it beyond the security features. Thus, should this be >>> explicitly noted as saying, if you don't use DTLS you will be = required >>> to find an alternative solution to the roles. >=20 >> Isn't this be said by the first sentence of the paragraph? It states >> the requirement of having a rule and provides on the second sentence >> such a rule for the case where DTLS is used. >>=20 >=20 > Yes, it does. And I see no risk of this being misunderstood in the > context of WebRTC usage. So I will accept this, but note that this may > be one of these cases where some poor guy will swear over this > specification not being clearer on how to apply it in other contexts. I'm happy to integrate any text you sent... Should I resubmit the ID? I think it is pretty much done... Best regards Michael >=20 > Cheers >=20 > Magnus Westerlund >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed May 14 14:17:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A91D1A01ED for ; Wed, 14 May 2014 14:17:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H6fqok8D06Ln for ; Wed, 14 May 2014 14:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server209.appriver.com (server209g.appriver.com [8.31.233.122]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C4D11A01E1 for ; Wed, 14 May 2014 14:16:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Note-AR-ScanTimeLocal: 5/14/2014 5:16:51 PM X-Policy: GLOBAL - vidyo.com X-Policy: GLOBAL - vidyo.com X-Policy: GLOBAL - vidyo.com X-Primary: alex@vidyo.com X-Note: This Email was scanned by AppRiver SecureTide X-Virus-Scan: V- X-Note-SnifferID: 0 X-Note: TCH-CT/SI:0-88/SG:2 5/14/2014 5:16:31 PM X-GBUdb-Analysis: 0, 162.209.16.213, Ugly c=0.913791 p=-0.979146 Source White X-Signature-Violations: 0-0-0-15006-c X-Note-419: 15.6005 ms. Fail:0 Chk:1340 of 1340 total X-Note: SCH-CT/SI:0-1340/SG:1 5/14/2014 5:16:37 PM X-Note: Spam Tests Failed: X-Country-Path: ->UNITED STATES-> X-Note-Sending-IP: 162.209.16.213 X-Note-Reverse-DNS: mail2.vidyo.com X-Note-Return-Path: alex@vidyo.com X-Note: User Rule Hits: X-Note: Global Rule Hits: G327 G328 G329 G330 G334 G335 G445 X-Note: Encrypt Rule Hits: X-Note: Mail Class: VALID X-Note: Headers Injected Received: from [162.209.16.213] (HELO mail.vidyo.com) by server209.appriver.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.2) with ESMTPS id 123502897; Wed, 14 May 2014 17:16:51 -0400 Received: from 492133-EXCH2.vidyo.com ([fe80::50:56ff:fe85:6b62]) by 492132-EXCH1.vidyo.com ([fe80::50:56ff:fe85:4f77%13]) with mapi id 14.03.0146.000; Wed, 14 May 2014 16:16:50 -0500 From: Alex Eleftheriadis To: Colin Perkins Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13.txt Thread-Index: AQHPXvfmeuYcI7i6ykmMzZ63gXbx1JsfhuwAgB1sDICAAlxbgIABujGA Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 21:16:50 +0000 Message-ID: <97B92BBD-52FC-4F19-B672-D7C89FC3E961@vidyo.com> References: <20140423132741.9210.61684.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5357C102.2060606@ericsson.com> <5DB48F3D-980D-43CF-83BF-4E12BFC8B794@vidyo.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [85.72.194.91] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <430AF5A286C2C5408995F1143F942FEE@vidyo.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/etf1dHWPstDt10qjQsmGntby1AI Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 21:17:03 -0000 Thank you. --A On May 13, 2014, at 9:54 PM, Colin Perkins wrote: > Hi Alex, >=20 > Thanks for the comments. These all look like reasonable suggestions, that= we can try to incorporate into the next version. >=20 > Colin >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 12 May 2014, at 07:51, Alex Eleftheriadis wrote: >> Hi Magnus/all.=20 >>=20 >> Great document. I took the time to write down some comments, most editor= ial but not all. I list them below sorted by page number.=20 >>=20 >> Regards, >>=20 >> --Alex >>=20 >> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * >>=20 >> -- p. 17, Section 6 >>=20 >> The first paragraph seems to suggest that the overhead is always non-tri= vial. In fact, techniques such as the one mentioned in Section 6.1 can be d= one with very small overhead (bits) and, specifically, without requiring "a= lower base encoding quality". The paragraph can be read to suggest that su= ch lowering is *always* required for robustness.=20 >>=20 >> -- p. 23, 3rd paragraph >>=20 >> "both effective congestion control" -> delete "both". >>=20 >> -- p. 26, 2nd paragraph >>=20 >> "Thus it is possible for multiple source packet streams to share encoded= streams (but not packet streams), but this is an implementation choice to = try to utilise such optimisations." >>=20 >> I am not sure I understand this. An example would help. (The sentence ne= eds a rewrite anyway.) >>=20 >> -- p. 26, 3rd paragraph >>=20 >> "and don't forces a end-point to change" -> "and does not force an end-p= oint to change" >>=20 >> -- p. 27, 1st paragraph >>=20 >> "can request that the ... to be the same" -> delete "to".=20 >>=20 >> "this allow for synchronization" -> "this allows for synchronization" >>=20 >> -- p. 27, 3rd paragraph >>=20 >> "that receives an MediaStreamTrack" -> "that receives a MediaStreamTrack= " >>=20 >> "for its the sent streams" -> "for its sent streams". >>=20 >> "etc followed" -> "etc., followed" >>=20 >> -- p. 30, 2nd paragraph >>=20 >> "possible to accomplished by establishing" -> "possible to be accomplish= ed by establishing" >>=20 >> -- p. 31, 1st paragraph >>=20 >> "It it believed" -> "It is believed" >>=20 >> Also, the statement in that last sentence: "It is believed that these ad= vantages outweigh the limitations in debugging power." is putting it mildl= y :-) >>=20 >> -- p. 34, 4th paragraph >>=20 >> "the second the actual mechanism to prioritize packets" -> "the second c= onsisting of the actual mechanism to prioritize packets". >>=20 >> -- p. 36, 12.2.1 title >>=20 >> "Media Source" -> "Media Source Identification" >>=20 >> --p. 36, 2nd and 3rd paragraphs >>=20 >> IN the 2nd paragraph it is stated "to avoid exposing the SSRC/CSRC name = space to JavaScript applications". In the 3rd: "This information [audio lev= el for each contributing source] can usefully be exposed in the user interf= ace." >>=20 >> To make this point, you need to explain how the audio level information = is going to be carried across the API or point somewhere.=20 >>=20 >> -- p. 37, 1st, 2nd, and 4th paragraphs >>=20 >> "both end-points uses an new SSRC" -> "both end-points use a new SSRC" >>=20 >> "reject a end-points usage of an SSRC" -> "reject an end-point's usage o= f an SSRC" >>=20 >> "While is is clearly considered" -> "While it is clearly considered" >>=20 >> -- general >>=20 >> Section 11 appears to require at least one more editorial pass. >>=20 >> Make sure you use British or US English consistently (i.e., optimise vs.= optimize :-) >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Apr 23, 2014, at 4:32 PM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >>=20 >>> WG, >>>=20 >>> We authors have been doing some editing on this version to take care of >>> the last known issues. This includes the text that has been discussed o= n >>> the list lately. It also contains an expanded example about RTCP >>> bandwidth (see Section 7.2). Further we have reviewed the terminology >>> usage in the document, and applied the AVTEXT grouping taxonomy. >>>=20 >>> So, we authors now believe this to be ready for WG last call. >>>=20 >>> Cheers >>>=20 >>> Magnus >>>=20 >>> On 2014-04-23 15:27, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dir= ectories. >>>> This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in WEB-browse= rs Working Group of the IETF. >>>>=20 >>>> Title : Web Real-Time Communication (WebRTC): Media Tra= nsport and Use of RTP >>>> Authors : Colin Perkins >>>> Magnus Westerlund >>>> Joerg Ott >>>> Filename : draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13.txt >>>> Pages : 45 >>>> Date : 2014-04-23 >>>>=20 >>>> Abstract: >>>> The Web Real-Time Communication (WebRTC) framework provides support >>>> for direct interactive rich communication using audio, video, text, >>>> collaboration, games, etc. between two peers' web-browsers. This >>>> memo describes the media transport aspects of the WebRTC framework. >>>> It specifies how the Real-time Transport Protocol (RTP) is used in >>>> the WebRTC context, and gives requirements for which RTP features, >>>> profiles, and extensions need to be supported. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage/ >>>>=20 >>>> There's also a htmlized version available at: >>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 >>>>=20 >>>> A diff from the previous version is available at: >>>> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of subm= ission >>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>>>=20 >>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> I-D-Announce mailing list >>>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce >>>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >>>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>>=20 >>> Magnus Westerlund >>>=20 >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 >>> F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 >>> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> rtcweb mailing list >>> rtcweb@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Colin Perkins > http://csperkins.org/ >=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed May 14 15:14:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A316F1A0323 for ; Wed, 14 May 2014 15:14:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hMNj385QXdGg for ; Wed, 14 May 2014 15:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28BC41A0315 for ; Wed, 14 May 2014 15:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=52864 helo=[192.168.0.85]) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WkhRY-0001At-Th; Wed, 14 May 2014 23:14:34 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: <5370B330.1090006@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 23:14:28 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <630D5B63-01E9-4E59-A815-94015F8276F9@csperkins.org> References: <2FAF1D94-DBAB-43EB-97CF-7ACA2213A7B5@iii.ca> <5370B330.1090006@ericsson.com> To: Magnus Westerlund X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: -28 X-Mythic-Debug: Threshold = On = Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/4QIfVbvUlaDlv5SEBnQ5abKYi98 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 22:14:46 -0000 Hi, Some comments inline. On 12 May 2014, at 12:40, Magnus Westerlund = wrote: > Thanks for the feedback, I will work with my co-authors to propose = text > changes where so is appropriate and see inline for comments or = response. >=20 > On 2014-05-09 16:41, Cullen Jennings wrote: >>=20 >> Overall the document looks in excellent shape. I do have a bunch of >> comments but they are all pretty easy to deal with. >>=20 >> Page 5 I think that draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream-optimisation >> should be MAY not a MUST. We don=92t loose significant = interoperability >> by not having it a MUST. >=20 > It is not a MUST: >=20 > "Support for the RTCP > optimisations for multi-SSRC sessions defined in > [I-D.ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream-optimisation] is RECOMMENDED." >=20 > And it is recommended for a good reason. Although this is a new spec = it > provides a significant improvement in RTCP efficiency compared to > without it. >=20 > Below you find the statistical simulation results for the intervals > between regular RTCP packets achieved over 10000 RTCP packets in an > WebRTC like situation with X number of SSRCs per endpoint between two > endpoints, all SSRC are active senders. The RTCP bandwidths are > configured as RR: 15000 bps, RS: 10000 bps and T-rr-int =3D 0 >=20 > AVPF is base line AVPF > AVPF-AGG-ADJ is the scheduling aggregation that is being specified in > draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream > AVPF-RG-AGG is with the report group extension and the removal of = cross > reporting specified in = draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream-optimisation >=20 > Average transmission interval from using the different solutions: >=20 > SSRCs 1 2 3 4 5 >=20 > AVPF 1.043879 1.126795 1.246220 1.410738 1.599270 > AVPF-AGG-ADJ 1.041918 1.110367 1.217367 1.362500 1.549829 > AVPF-RG-AGG 1.051294 1.080191 1.113448 1.150983 1.187954 >=20 > Gain from using the different solutions: >=20 > SSRCs 1 2 3 4 5 >=20 > AVPF-AGG-ADJ -0.001879 -0.014579 -0.023152 -0.034193 -0.030915 > AVPF-RG-AGG 0.007103 -0.041360 -0.106540 -0.184127 -0.257190 >=20 > As can be seen the significant gain is for the report group extension, > especially as the SSRCs per end point increases. >=20 >>=20 >> Page Sending correct sync information should be MUST not SHOULD. We >> can=92t make lip sync work without this and I think the flows I have >> seen already send it. Note people don=92t have to deal with correctly >> implementing lip sync on the receiving end, they just have to send >> enough information to make it possible that receivers that want to >> can. >=20 > You have misread this: >=20 > o Sending correct synchronisation information in the RTCP Sender > Reports, to allow receivers to implement lip-synchronisation; > support for the rapid RTP synchronisation extensions (see > Section 5.2.1) is RECOMMENDED. >=20 > The first part "Sending correct synchronisation information in the = RTCP > Sender Reports, to allow receivers to implement lip-synchronisation;" > is MUST, the second part is providing a recommendation. >=20 > we had an comment from Olle about this and propose to reformulated = this > to be: >=20 > o Sending correct synchronisation information in the RTCP Sender > Reports, to allow receivers to implement lip-synchronisation; see > Section 5.2.1 regarding support for the rapid RTP synchronisation > extensions. >=20 >=20 >>=20 >> Has the text "support for RTCP timer reconsideration." but I don=92t >> know what this means or how to implement it - suspect we just need a >> ref or bit more text. >=20 > Okay, we can add a reference to Section 6.3 of RFC 3550 where this is > discussed and defined. Added. >> I=92d refer to see "reduced minimum RTCP reporting interval" be a = MUST >> and I could live with MAY but SHOULD is just lame for this. >=20 > You will not get a protest from me to make this a MUST. Does anyone = else > protests? Added, along with some clarifications on how this affects RTCP source = timeout intervals.=20 >> Page 8 >>=20 >> It has the text >>=20 >> An end-point that has signalled support for multiple RTP payload >> formats SHOULD be able to accept data in any of those payload formats >> at any time, unless it has previously signalled limitations on its >> decoding capability. >>=20 >> I think that has to be a MUST not a SHOULD or else this will not >> work. >=20 > Yes, you are correct this really needs to be a MUST to get the desired > effect. Otherwise you will have media failures when the sender does = this > and the receiver isn=92t capable. Fixed. >> Page 18 >>=20 >> This has RTX (RFC4588) and MUST. RTX has turned out to be close to >> useless in interactive communications systems because the RTT is just >> too high to make this viable. You need to set your jitter buffer to >> be larger than the RTT for this work and I am aware of any >> significant internet collaborations system that sets the jitter >> buffer size that high. I think this should be MAY not MUST but that >> said, I can easily live with MUST, it just seems useless at a time >> where we are trying to reduce the complexity of the system. >=20 > I want to really protest about this Retransmission being useless. The > experiences we have had when deploying RTP retransmission in a video > conference system has been good. The only case where we had real = issues > have been on intercontinental distances, for example between Stockholm > and San Jose where the RTT is large enough to actually cause issues = that > the user notices. But on short distances like Stockholm to Germany or > Finland it works in excellent. This is a system I use almost daily and > have been in internal usage for several years. Agree. The RTTs I see for calls around the UK are often in the range = where retransmission is entirely feasible.=20 > But, yes there are implementation choices regarding the buffering > strategies here that do matters. One actually don't have to let the > jitter buffer always have one or more RTT extra depth, the alternative > is to delay the playout on the occurrences when retransmission is = required. >=20 > As noted by Colin, the MUST is more subtle than requiring RTP > retransmission. I think what is in the draft represents the = conclusions > of the discussion in Stockholm interim as well as on the mailing list > after. >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Page 19 >>=20 >> It says FEC is not required. I=92m OK with this but my notes have it = as >> the WG previously agreed on this being required. It might be worth >> putting this up on a slide in the May meeting and checking the WG is >> good with no FEC. Perhaps my notes are all wrong - I did not try and >> go back throughout minutes. It=92s possible the WG decided different >> things and different times. >=20 > My recollection has also been that the WG has been positive towards = FEC, > but none has made a suggestion for a specific FEC scheme and RTP > encapsulation of it to include at any implementation level. Thus, the > formulation that is present in the draft. >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Page 20 >>=20 >> Has the text >>=20 >> signalled bandwidth limits SHOULD be used to limit traffic >>=20 >> I might be reading this the wrong way but given the weak congestion >> control in general, I feel pretty strongly that the browser can=92t >> ignore signaled bandwidth limits and this needs to say something more >> like the "MUST not exceed signaled bandwidth" >=20 > Lets quote the sentence before the one you partially references: >=20 > In addition, the signalling > channel can establish maximum media bit-rate boundaries using the = SDP > "b=3DAS:" or "b=3DCT:" lines, and the RTP/AVPF Temporary Maximum = Media > Stream Bit Rate (TMMBR) Requests (see Section 5.1.6 of this memo). >=20 > Looking at the full sentence you refer to: >=20 > The combination of media codec choice and signalled bandwidth limits > SHOULD be used to limit traffic based on known bandwidth = limitations, > for example the capacity of the edge links, to the extent possible. >=20 > My personal interpretation of this text has been that: >=20 > 1. You follow the limitations the peer signals > 2. You SHOULD set these values your self based on known limitations = and > code configurations. >=20 > But, looking at the text, we probably needs to make these two > distinctions clearer. Adding a MUST statement for the first thing I > support. >=20 >=20 >> Page 20-22, >>=20 >> Section 7.2 - I felt like this section was supposed to convince me it >> was all OK but the more I read it the more confused I was. What does >> one do if sending video on says a 768 kbps link? Send every 5 frames? >>=20 >>=20 >> I think part of the confusion stemmed from the implication that to do >> good congestion control, you needed a report once ever say RTT but in >> RTP we could not do that so we would fall back to a far less frequent >> reporting of once ever frame. But ever frame is less than the RTT in >> most internet case so I was just confused by the whole section. >>=20 >> I don=92t think this section is going to help implementors much as it >> is - perhaps it could just be refactored a bit to help implementers >> understand how often to send RTCP and why. >=20 > I will have to come back regarding this, I believe I understand the > issues you see, but I need to consider further what to do about them. The text in the draft is perhaps better suited to giving guidelines for = designers of congestion control algorithms than for browser = implementers. >> Page 24 >>=20 >> Has >>=20 >> All WebRTC implementations MUST be prepared to receive RTP XR report >> packets, whether or not they were signaled. >>=20 >> I disagree with this - we are in a non multicast environment with RTP >> inside DTLS/SRTP. One should not be getting reports for extensions >> that were not negotiated. >=20 > I think it is important that RTP stack implementations can ignore > unknown or none supported features. At the same time I agree with you > that you should normally not get sent features that you don't support > and can not use. That is just wasting RTCP bandwidth and processing. >=20 > I can see that detailed control of this may be limited in certain > multi-party cases or gateways with legacy where controlling the legacy > might be an issue. >=20 >> =46rom my point of view this should be: >=20 > 1. MUST NOT send unless agreed on. > 2. MUST be able to receive and discard options not asked for. >=20 > Are you fine with such a clarification? >=20 >>=20 >> Similarly on page 25 the text has >>=20 >> The RTP extensions to be used SHOULD be agreed upon, >>=20 >> I think this needs to be a MUST. For both this, and the previous, I think SHOULD is correct, along with = some recommendations about being robust when receiving unexpected = packets. We do not want WebRTC implementations to fall over when sent = something novel that hasn=92t been signalled.=20 >> Page 27 >>=20 >> I think it would be best to just remove the line >>=20 >> This document [I-D.ietf-mmusic-msid] also defines, in section 4.1, >> how to map unknown source packet stream SSRCs to MediaStreamTracks >> and MediaStreams. >>=20 >> as that is not key to this spec. >=20 > The reason that is included is that it can be an important aspect of > handling legacy interop where you don't require the media plane > information to be included in the signalling message the signalling > gateway creates. >=20 >> Page 36 - 37 >>=20 >> Section 12.2.2. >>=20 >> So if I read this right, it says you MUST resolve SSRC collisions but >> RFC 5576 has no way to do that. What are implementors supposed to do >> ? >=20 > Sorry, what are you referring to? Section 5 of RFC 5576 is very clear = on > what actions needs to happen after an SSRC collision has occurred. I think this was a typo in our draft. I changed =93The Source-Specific = SDP Attributes [RFC5576] contains no mechanism to resolve SSRC = collisions=94 to =93contains a mechanism to resolve=94, since as you = point out, it does. > Basically, choose new SSRC, signal it and include previous-SSRC > attribute to inform about your previous SSRC that you where forced to > abandon due to collision. >=20 >>=20 >> Even ignoring 5576 - it=92s just not clear to me how one detects and >> resolves SSRC collisions. >=20 > Please see RFC 3550 Section 8.2 I added a reference to this. --=20 Colin Perkins http://csperkins.org/ From nobody Wed May 14 22:19:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABC5C1A03D0 for ; Wed, 14 May 2014 22:19:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RZn9MMA7dIZ2 for ; Wed, 14 May 2014 22:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6ADDC1A03CF for ; Wed, 14 May 2014 22:19:34 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-f790e6d000001067-d4-53744e5d05b3 Received: from ESESSHC012.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 70.19.04199.D5E44735; Thu, 15 May 2014 07:19:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.174.1; Thu, 15 May 2014 07:19:24 +0200 Message-ID: <53744E5C.3070902@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 15 May 2014 07:19:24 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Tuexen References: <530B740E.4090707@ericsson.com> <53160FBB.4070401@ericsson.com> <1904CA30-1112-44D4-8C6F-F15F1EF1BF9B@lurchi.franken.de> <534D566B.3040905@ericsson.com> <537239AD.9040000@ericsson.com> <980A88B9-5DBB-4A96-8F3F-4F77D64BE22C@lurchi.franken.de> <5373D254.50804@ericsson.com> <73724F06-8B39-4DAE-AD7D-AF53E4FC7CE5@lurchi.franken.de> In-Reply-To: <73724F06-8B39-4DAE-AD7D-AF53E4FC7CE5@lurchi.franken.de> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrDLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvjW6sX0mwwfwj5harD+9ls7jYtITR Yu2/dnYHZo8lS34yeWxo2cHk8eXyZ7YA5igum5TUnMyy1CJ9uwSujDfT97IUnOGouHtvCXMD 4ye2LkZODgkBE4kp65YxQ9hiEhfurQeKc3EICRxllNh8pZ8dwlnOKDHl71mwKl4BbYmWYz1M IDaLgKrEoTUtrCA2m4CFxM0fjWBTRQWCJTY8/MsOUS8ocXLmExYQW0TAVOLg8nlgNrNAtETH zZtgM4UFvCWWrWiF2nyMWaKhZSPYAk4BV4m/TV8Yuxg5gM4Tl+hpDILo1ZOYcrWFEcKWl2je OhtsjhDQbQ1NHawTGIVmIVk9C0nLLCQtCxiZVzGKFqcWJ+WmGxnppRZlJhcX5+fp5aWWbGIE BvfBLb8NdjC+fO54iFGAg1GJh1dhfXGwEGtiWXFl7iFGaQ4WJXHeb2fdg4UE0hNLUrNTUwtS i+KLSnNSiw8xMnFwSjUwTli+eULUv++/F3+47OAxNVM73aerPj7pVFfeUsWG2xOTGup297ld CRHY82jipbVsi/b/2rN2v+GapnUFp43qws6pf7d5f4x1l+mcsC/PZ+ziWn5KIcHSnr1PYOnl vJ/uG9YxHJp+NaxSgq82a8ohdYHXr4oV1UIF/i677LyQsaz7981p926fPafEUpyRaKjFXFSc CACL3lR0TwIAAA== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/opdDUzvw0gJ6UyuWe9TIebDGZn8 Cc: draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol@tools.ietf.org, "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Review comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-03 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 May 2014 05:19:36 -0000 On 2014-05-14 22:45, Michael Tuexen wrote: > > On 14 May 2014, at 22:30, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >> >> Yes, it does. And I see no risk of this being misunderstood in the >> context of WebRTC usage. So I will accept this, but note that this may >> be one of these cases where some poor guy will swear over this >> specification not being clearer on how to apply it in other contexts. > I'm happy to integrate any text you sent... Sorry, I don't have time to provide that. > > Should I resubmit the ID? I think it is pretty much done... Yes, please do. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Thu May 15 07:13:17 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 385941A008A for ; Thu, 15 May 2014 07:13:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, J_CHICKENPOX_81=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K66gPMiQWiDr for ; Thu, 15 May 2014 07:13:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BA2D1A00BA for ; Thu, 15 May 2014 07:13:00 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-f790e6d000001067-6d-5374cb635342 Received: from ESESSHC002.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 56.49.04199.36BC4735; Thu, 15 May 2014 16:12:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.26) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.174.1; Thu, 15 May 2014 16:12:50 +0200 Message-ID: <5374CB61.60103@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 15 May 2014 16:12:49 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Suhas Nandakumar , Cullen Jennings References: <2FAF1D94-DBAB-43EB-97CF-7ACA2213A7B5@iii.ca> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------030802070909040904060601" X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrILMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvjW7y6ZJgg7dL5S0+rP/BaLH2Xzu7 xc65HcwOzB47Z91l91iy5CeTx+XzHxkDmKO4bFJSczLLUov07RK4Mq78/c1YsP+fTMXlk7tZ Ghh7WmW6GDk5JARMJO60fGKDsMUkLtxbD2RzcQgJHGWUuP22jR0kISSwnFHiZ1M4iM0roCkx 6eYMsDiLgKrE3Wl7WUFsNgELiZs/GsEGiQoES2x4+Jcdol5Q4uTMJywgtoiAt8T7PzfB6pkF 1CXuLD4HViMsECCxp/8qC8Tiw4wSO1ZuBktwCgRKrHz5krmLkQPoOnGJnsYgiN4Aiek7V0Pd pi3R0NTBOoFRcBaSdbOQlEHYehJTrrYwQtjyEs1bZzND2IESc36ugKpXlJjS/RCq3kvi6/kf TAsY2VcxihanFiflphsZ6aUWZSYXF+fn6eWllmxiBMbJwS2/DXYwvnzueIhRgINRiYdXYX1x sBBrYllxZe4hRmkOFiVx3huHS4KFBNITS1KzU1MLUovii0pzUosPMTJxcEo1MM7jNxbf+M61 d+rE0+Wrp+8JS4618f73UU7rcnTH+uUXpmx6+NPXahbP/trskh3ZZzNr3IJ71opYb7PYfLvJ tmr/++/bZqqKvV4nfPzEMf8krZmO6/ZsDrOZ1XZLyaH5nPGJk3brXv26nT2R21eqPy9f5mba RKfPilPXVmax+fzT0H3k8zm7rFyJpTgj0VCLuag4EQDgPo+HdAIAAA== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/gPXuQ2urEtYnFrBxE6kQeBqzHJM Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 May 2014 14:13:11 -0000 --------------030802070909040904060601 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Suhas, Thanks, for your review, please see comments and answers inline. On 2014-05-10 01:36, Suhas Nandakumar wrote: > Thanks Magnus and all for this work. I liked the way the document has > turned out to be. > > Apologies for the last minute response, I am been wanting to read this > spec and finally got some time late in this week. > > I have listed down few points that reflect my notes when i read the > document from a RTP implementor and WebRTC developer perspectives. > > *Comments* > > > 2. Handling of documents from AVTCore related to MultiStream, > MultiStreamOptimization, MultiMediaRTPSession that are normatively > referenced. It was not clear if all these should be normatively referenced. Yes, they are most definitely normative references here. - Multi-stream is the general clarification on handling multi-stream. >From my perspective these clarifications are definitely needed. - MultiStreamOptimization we RECOMMEND due to the significant gain it provides as soon as each endpoint have multiple SSRCs. - MultiMediaRTPSession is a requirement to allow for audio and video in the same RTP session. > > 3. RTP Taxonomy usage. This comment is applicable to the RTP documents > referred by this document which dont follow the Taxonomy. This caused > lot of concept mapping in my mind to go between the different usages to > understand the implications. I would strongly recommend alignment with > the Taxonomy for these dependent documents and I volunteer to do some of > it If needed. Yes, but that has to happen for each document individually. I think this document is pretty well aligned with the current Taxonomy draft. > > 4. trr-int of 4 seconds has be recommended in couples of places. But i > dont see a reference to the choice of 4 seconds and the reason why it > was chosen that way. I am not sure if we want to specify this detail in > this document. Yes, the motivation behind this value is from the attached presentation. Please see slide 11, where you can see the curves for how many actual reporting intervals will occur before an AVP and AVPF respectively will on average time out the other profile type based on different values for t-rr-int. A t-rr-int=4 s optimizes the number of reporting interval for well configured RTP sessions. The well configured is meant to avoid the AVPF bad behaviour when Td becomes close to T-rr-int. The first part of the presentation discusses that issue and can be worth reading through also. > > 5. Section 4.1 says, > > * Support for multiple end-points in a single RTP session, and for > scaling the RTCP transmission interval according to the number of > participants in the session; support for randomised RTCP > transmission intervals to avoid synchronisation of RTCP reports; > support for RTCP timer reconsideration. > > All these MUST requirements need references. If some of these belong to > RFC3550, then we need to say that. We propose: o Support for multiple end-points in a single RTP session, and for scaling the RTCP transmission interval according to the number of participants in the session; support for randomised RTCP transmission intervals to avoid synchronisation of RTCP reports; support for RTCP timer reconsideration (Section 6.3.6 of [RFC3550]) and reverse reconsideration (Section 6.3.4 of [RFC3550]). > > 6. Section 4.2 > Not sure if the side note for trr-int fits in this section I think it fits well enough. The section discusses the profiles, and a relevant consideration is the legacy interop with AVP/SAVP senders. Do you have a suggestion where it should be placed instead? > > 7. Section 4.3 Para 2 > - I felt this Para was getting too busy in laying out the cases of > PT Reuse combinations. Can we break it , if possible ? Is this better? End-points can signal support for multiple RTP payload formats, or multiple configurations of a single RTP payload format, as long as each unique RTP payload format configuration uses a different RTP payload type number. As outlined in Section 4.8, the RTP payload type number is sometimes used to associate an RTP packet stream with a signalling context. This association is possible provided unique RTP payload type numbers are used in each context. For example, an RTP packet stream can be associated with an SDP "m=" line by comparing the RTP payload type numbers used by the RTP packet stream with payload types signalled in the "a=rtpmap:" lines in the media sections of the SDP. This leads to the following considerations: If RTP packet streams are being associated with signalling contexts based on the RTP payload type, then the assignment of RTP payload type numbers MUST be unique across signalling contexts. If the same RTP payload format configuration is used in multiple contexts, then a different RTP payload type number has to be assigned in each context to ensure uniqueness. If the RTP payload type number is not being used to associate RTP packet streams with a signalling context, then the same RTP payload type number can be used to indicate the exact same RTP payload format configuration in multiple contexts. A single RTP payload type number MUST NOT be assigned to different RTP payload formats, or different configurations of the same RTP payload format, within a single RTP session. > - We can probably delete the note referring to BUNDLE spec since > we refer to it again in Section 4.4 where it contextually makes more sense. Ok, I do think it works to remove this: (note that the different "m=" lines in an SDP bundle group [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation] form a single RTP session) > > 8. Section 4.3 Para 3 > An end-point that has signalled support for multiple RTP payload > formats SHOULD be able to accept data in any of those payload formats at > any time, unless it has previously signalled limitations on its decoding > capability. > > Shouldn't the SHOULD be MUST above. If not, I think we fail interoperability Yes, will be included in the next version. > > 9.Nit .. Section 4.4 Para 3 says > Further discussion about the suitability of different RTP session > structures and multiplexing methods to different scenarios are suitable > can be found in [I-D.ietf-avtcore-multiplex-guidelines] > . > > How about rewording it to, > Further discussion about the suitability of different RTP session > structures and multiplexing methods to different scenarios can be found > in [I-D.ietf-avtcore-multiplex-guidelines] > . > Sounds better, will incorporate. > > 10. Section 5.1 ( Topology Recommendations) > - Nit .. Adding reference to RTCPeerConnections might be useful Sure, will add. > - I dont think this document should make recommendations against > applicability of a particular topology for a given context. > Specifically, the pointers to carrying out congestion control mechanisms > are still under development and denying a topology based on it might not > be a good idea. I would prefer this section referring to the Topo > document as an informative reference and implications of each topology > under various scenarios should be moved in there, if needed. That would also have been my preference. However, when this was discussed in detail at the Stockholm RTCWEB Interim 2 years ago, people has strong view that they where not willing to deal with the implications of these topologies. The issue with Transport relay as well as an Any Source Multicast group is that each participating endpoint are required to handle multiple congestion control loops, one to each receiving endpoint and act on the full set of different path with a common appropriately selected response. These type of topologies are explicitly outside of the charter of RMCAT. The Video switching MCU as defined in the topologies draft cause breakage and inconsistencies in the RTP packet streams that are difficult to handle and can result in strange congestion control responses. That is why this is SHOULD NOT. Please note that I started this effort with an intention of avoiding to make the WebRTC endpoint limited in their deployment. With that in mind I do see this set of limitations as a reasonable limitations. > > 11. Section 5.1.2 > Should we add the requirement for the WebRTC end-point sending PLI > messages? Sorry, I am uncertain what you request here. The current section requires an WebRTC RTP (video) sender to support PLI. The transmission of PLI from the RTP receiving endpoint is a MAY. Do you want to change this MAY to something else? A MUST? Please clarify your request. > > 12. Section 10 > - Nit - Reference to ICE is needed Okay, will include. > > 13. Section 11 Para 3 > Not sure, if this is needed altogether. Probably saying a given > Media Source might end up in several RTP Packet Streams with their > associated SSRC following WebRTC API mechanisms defined in I disagree. The following sentence did take some discussion to arrive at: "As different sets of constraints or other parameters can be applied to the MediaStreamTrack, each MediaStreamTrack instance added to a RTCPeerConnection SHALL result in an independent source packet stream, with its own set of associated packet streams, and thus different SSRC(s)." Yes, it is in the grey zone between W3C and IETF. However, in this case we have worked for a WG consensus on that this is needed guidance to W3C. Because there are different choices here and leaving it unspecified is bad. Leaving it to W3C soley could result in ignoring the media framework implications of what the API allows. > > 14. Section 11 says > Note: this doesn't result in a tracking issue, since the creation of > matching CNAMEs depends on existing tracking. > > We need bit more context here explaining the tracking or remove it > altogether So the sentence in the prior paragraph is not sufficient reference to what it is? Having two communication sessions with the same CNAME could enable tracking of a user or device across different services (see Section 4.4.1 of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-security] for details). > > 15. Section 8 > There is no requirement that the data contained in such reports be > used, or exposed to the Javascript application, however. > Do we need this sentence ? With the current formulation I would say yes. It makes it clear that unless you have explicitly negotiated its use, you are not required to handle them in any form other than ignoring such XR reports. I have started a discussion with my co-author about that last paragraph and to see if we can resolve it differently. Thus, this may be changed but, we like to consider the most appropriate action to take care also of Cullen's comment. > > 16. Section 11 has, > The above will currently force a WebRTC end-point that receives an > MediaStreamTrack on one RTCPeerConnection and adds it as an outgoing on > any RTCPeerConnection to perform resynchronisation of the stream. This, > as the sending party needs to change the CNAME, which implies that it > has to use a locally available system clock as timebase for the > synchronisation. Thus, the relative relation between the timebase of the > incoming stream and the system sending out needs to defined. This > relation also needs monitoring for clock drift and likely adjustments of > the synchronisation. The sending entity is also responsible for > congestion control for its the sent streams. In cases of packet loss the > loss of incoming data also needs to be handled. This leads to the > observation that the method that is least likely to cause issues or > interruptions in the outgoing source packet stream is a model of full > decoding, including repair etc followed by encoding of the media again > into the outgoing packet stream. Optimisations of this method is clearly > possible and implementation specific. > > Probably,I am missing the context here, but I don't see the need for > this para in this document since it is very application specific Actually this is not application specific. It something that is way to easy to do in the API to add an stream that is incoming over one peerConnection and add it as outgoing on another. The WG has discussed this and come to the consensus that we what is required by the WebRTC implementations are to do what is described in the above text. Thus this is something all WebRTC endpoints that supports the API will need to handle. I propose no change. > > 17 Section 12 > - Not sure if we really need the topology details in here. But I am > fine going with it one way or the other. As you say you have no issue, I would leave it in. You probably have a good understanding what is written here. I think for a significant number of people this will provide important information and understanding. I propose no change. > > 18. Section 12.1.3 > Should this be moved out as a separate section, since, it is more > than just implementation guidelines This section is placed where it is as it provides information on why the RTP session configuration does matter for QoS. I propose no change. > > 19. SSRC Collision > It is not clear what implementation guidelines that is being > provided. With the clarification of the first bullet, one clear implementation guideline is provided. In addition it motivates why it matters and also what its limitations are. Both things worth considering. I propose no change. 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UEsBAi0ACgAAAAAAAAAhAPg5b3o+tQAAPrUAABQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAj/YBAHBwdC9tZWRp YS9pbWFnZTIucG5nUEsBAi0ACgAAAAAAAAAhAKlWxC43KgEANyoBABQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA /6sCAHBwdC9tZWRpYS9pbWFnZTMucG5nUEsBAi0ACgAAAAAAAAAhAIQC+kkzKgEAMyoBABQA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaNYDAHBwdC9tZWRpYS9pbWFnZTQucG5nUEsBAi0AFAAGAAgAAAAhANj9 jY+sAAAAtgAAABMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAzQAFAHBwdC90YWJsZVN0eWxlcy54bWxQSwECLQAU AAYACAAAACEADy2vrlEBAACLAgAAEQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACqAQUAcHB0L3ByZXNQcm9wcy54 bWxQSwECLQAUAAYACAAAACEArwZScJsBAABYAwAAEQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAqAwUAcHB0L3Zp ZXdQcm9wcy54bWxQSwECLQAUAAYACAAAACEA9jnHsNoCAACGBgAAEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD0 BAUAZG9jUHJvcHMvYXBwLnhtbFBLAQItABQABgAIAAAAIQC/14PbfAEAAL4CAAARAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAQJBQBkb2NQcm9wcy9jb3JlLnhtbFBLBQYAAAAAQQBBACkTAAC3CwUAAAA= --------------030802070909040904060601-- From nobody Thu May 15 11:56:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D18C01A016D; Thu, 15 May 2014 11:56:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wcthYduX7f8b; Thu, 15 May 2014 11:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 258401A014D; Thu, 15 May 2014 11:56:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.4.2.p3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140515185625.26070.74893.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 15 May 2014 11:56:25 -0700 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/C0852kxo0y4fodVx4BYuPjSyuRg Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-05.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 May 2014 18:56:27 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers Working Group of the IETF. Title : WebRTC Data Channel Establishment Protocol Authors : Randell Jesup Salvatore Loreto Michael Tuexen Filename : draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-05.txt Pages : 12 Date : 2014-05-15 Abstract: The Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group is charged to provide protocol support for direct interactive rich communication using audio, video, and data between two peers' web-browsers. This document specifies a simple protocol for establishing symmetric data channels between the peers. It uses a two way handshake and allows sending of user data without waiting for the handshake to complete. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-05 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-05 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu May 15 11:57:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAF361A018E; Thu, 15 May 2014 11:57:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N5qxmj3WeVLy; Thu, 15 May 2014 11:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B1A31A014D; Thu, 15 May 2014 11:57:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.4.2.p3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140515185716.31736.77105.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 15 May 2014 11:57:16 -0700 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/T1efhvuMPRkmaoJNEzfqeF_gWeI Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-09.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 May 2014 18:57:18 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers Working Group of the IETF. Title : WebRTC Data Channels Authors : Randell Jesup Salvatore Loreto Michael Tuexen Filename : draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-09.txt Pages : 15 Date : 2014-05-15 Abstract: The Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group is charged to provide protocol support for direct interactive rich communication using audio, video, and data between two peers' web-browsers. This document specifies the non-SRTP media data transport aspects of the WebRTC framework. It provides an architectural overview of how the Stream Control Transmission Protocol (SCTP) is used in the WebRTC context as a generic transport service allowing WEB-browsers to exchange generic data from peer to peer. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-09 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-09 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu May 15 11:58:17 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EE011A015D for ; Thu, 15 May 2014 11:58:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U5qfpC8yX1Tn for ; Thu, 15 May 2014 11:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-n.franken.de (drew.ipv6.franken.de [IPv6:2001:638:a02:a001:20e:cff:fe4a:feaa]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A77A1A014E for ; Thu, 15 May 2014 11:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.102] (p508F1E25.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.143.30.37]) (Authenticated sender: macmic) by mail-n.franken.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 807B51C104643; Thu, 15 May 2014 20:58:04 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Michael Tuexen In-Reply-To: <53744E5C.3070902@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 15 May 2014 20:58:03 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <530B740E.4090707@ericsson.com> <53160FBB.4070401@ericsson.com> <1904CA30-1112-44D4-8C6F-F15F1EF1BF9B@lurchi.franken.de> <534D566B.3040905@ericsson.com> <537239AD.9040000@ericsson.com> <980A88B9-5DBB-4A96-8F3F-4F77D64BE22C@lurchi.franken.de> <5373D254.50804@ericsson.com> <73724F06-8B39-4DAE-AD7D-AF53E4FC7CE5@lurchi.franken.de> <53744E5C.3070902@ericsson.com> To: Magnus Westerlund X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/WABfl4HBbA0AxU1Rl8hvS9j1avY Cc: draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol@tools.ietf.org, "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Review comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-03 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 May 2014 18:58:16 -0000 On 15 May 2014, at 07:19, Magnus Westerlund = wrote: > On 2014-05-14 22:45, Michael Tuexen wrote: >>=20 >> On 14 May 2014, at 22:30, Magnus Westerlund = wrote: >=20 >>>=20 >>> Yes, it does. And I see no risk of this being misunderstood in the >>> context of WebRTC usage. So I will accept this, but note that this = may >>> be one of these cases where some poor guy will swear over this >>> specification not being clearer on how to apply it in other = contexts. >> I'm happy to integrate any text you sent... >=20 > Sorry, I don't have time to provide that. No problem. Maybe someone else has an idea... >=20 >>=20 >> Should I resubmit the ID? I think it is pretty much done... >=20 > Yes, please do. Done. Best regards Michael >=20 > Cheers >=20 > Magnus Westerlund >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 From nobody Fri May 16 02:22:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 993541A01C5 for ; Fri, 16 May 2014 02:22:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GGsQqX6nXFhG for ; Fri, 16 May 2014 02:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 73C321A01D8 for ; Fri, 16 May 2014 02:22:45 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f79036d00000126a-9b-5375d8dc74db Received: from ESESSHC018.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 39.8C.04714.CD8D5735; Fri, 16 May 2014 11:22:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.74) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.174.1; Fri, 16 May 2014 11:22:35 +0200 Message-ID: <5375D8DB.9060900@ericsson.com> Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 11:22:35 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Emil Ivov , Colin Perkins References: <2CE99351-87F9-4815-913A-092C1B703D8A@csperkins.org> <536BB52B.50102@jitsi.org> <536BFBC2.4090107@jitsi.org> <536CA59F.3090707@ericsson.com> <536CC62E.20103@jitsi.org> In-Reply-To: <536CC62E.20103@jitsi.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrFLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje6dG6XBBu8vSVssf3mC0WLNzgks Fmv/tbM7MHtMu3+fzWPJkp9MHv/fBAYwR3HZpKTmZJalFunbJXBlTNvIWbA0uGLnh5WsDYyL nLsYOTkkBEwk7t+bxwphi0lcuLeerYuRi0NI4CijxOLl15khnOWMElPv3GEBqeIV0JboWTiX GcRmEVCV2PjsChuIzSZgIXHzRyOYLSoQLLHh4V92iHpBiZMzn4D1igg4SUyYuROsl1lAXeLO 4nNgNcIC1hLLZp6F2jyZWeLRzV4mkAQnUNGC8++AbA6g88QlehqDIHoNJI4smsMKYctLNG+d DTZTCOi2hqYO1gmMQrOQrJ6FpGUWkpYFjMyrGEWLU4uLc9ONjPVSizKTi4vz8/TyUks2MQID ++CW37o7GFe/djzEKMDBqMTD+8CiNFiINbGsuDL3EKM0B4uSOO+dXUAhgfTEktTs1NSC1KL4 otKc1OJDjEwcnFINjOkqBUFX33R9OJlT/ylxrVdIQyJ3scHqNQYBGht++IifsO+5sVxslTbX qZ/TT39cxNjq1O+m93m29GvxNsO5u3a1RaS6CUxxTCu/O9t8CeOxxA81DN9+HriZf/DXt+Yl 39/fvrSk+qCq/PL6J7w7DN7/LfulUKoj8PWEQMIbr5fOpk35q18dL1RiKc5INNRiLipOBAAq xwM6TQIAAA== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/aKDHM5BmFIVPIj986RFmES_mLm0 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Review of draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 09:22:48 -0000 Hi, See inline. On 2014-05-09 14:12, Emil Ivov wrote: > Hey Magnus, > > On 09.05.14, 11:53, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >> On 2014-05-08 23:48, Emil Ivov wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 08.05.14, 21:02, Colin Perkins wrote: >>>> On 8 May 2014, at 17:47, Emil Ivov wrote: >>>>> On 08.05.14, 14:54, Colin Perkins wrote: >>>>>> On 8 May 2014, at 13:43, Bernard Aboba >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> On May 8, 2014, at 3:45, Colin Perkins >>>>>>>> wrote: The fix here is to delete “In the absence of a >>>>>>>> concrete congestion control algorithm, all”, leaving the text >>>>>>>> as “WebRTC implementations MUST implement the RTP circuit >>>>>>>> breaker…” since as you note, we want the circuit breaker even >>>>>>>> if there is congestion control. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [BA] The question I have is whether this would be widely >>>>>>> implemented. The Circuit Breaker algorithm pauses sessions, but >>>>>>> has no mechanism to resume them, so it increases brittleness. >>>>>> >>>>>> The circuit breaker is a mechanism of last resort. If we've >>>>>> designed it correctly, it will only stop sessions that are >>>>>> otherwise unusable. >>>>> >>>>> Shouldn't we have the "if" cleared before making this a MUST? It is >>>>> not clear to me that we’ve managed to avoid excessive false >>>>> positives for example. >>>> >>>> The experiments that I, Varun, and Zahed have done look to show the >>>> circuit breaker behaving as desired. >>> >>> That sounds interesting and I'd actually be happy to see the data >>> although I can easily believe that circuit breakers could come in handy >>> in certain situations. >>> >>> draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers-05 contains some very useful >>> guidelines on determining how and when an application might want to >>> consider employing them. >>> >>> So I am fine with the concept ... *as long as* the choice is left to the >>> application. >>> >>> I don't believe that any of the breakers however have the reliability to >>> only trigger in cases where ceasing media transmission is the right >>> thing to do. I don't think such a thing is possible given how use cases >>> and requirements vary from one application to the next. >> >> The circuit breakers triggers when the conditions are really bad. > > Well, not really. They trigger when specific events occur. Whether those > events are caused by network conditions and whether those network > conditions actually are "really bad" is often a matter of perspective. > Fair enough. But from my perspective for a real-time interactive application loss of either forward or reverse path for 10 second or more is an event that affects the user. And continuing to blast traffic into such a situation is bad. So either react or let the circuit breaker trip and shutdown the transmission is for me very reasonable. When it comes to the TCP equation the fact that the media sender are going more than 10 times as fast as TCP would do, do indicate that the send rate is out their into un-fair space. But, sure you can build an application that works okay with 15% packet loss as long as the delay isn't going through the roof. >> I >> think the one condition which is most likely to give a false positive is >> the loss of feedback, i.e. that one loses all RTCP packets under 3 >> regular reporting intervals. >> >> It is very hard to define programmatic rules that always do the "Right >> thing" here. Because with hindsight you can determine one action more >> appropriate than another. > > Yes, I agree. > >>>> If you know of scenarios where >>>> there are false positives, I’d like to see your data so we can >>>> improve the circuit breaker. >>> >>> It's funny you should ask. I am currently having connectivity issues and >>> my media transmissions would every now and then be interrupted for >>> periods that go beyond two or three RR packets. I am very happy that my >>> sessions just resume when things go back to normal. >> >> Well, the important aspect here is how your sending client behaves >> during these outages. The circuit breaker do requires you to have cut >> back the transmission in these conditions to less than a 10th of the >> nominal rate during these outages if the circuit breaker triggers. That >> means that you can continue to send low bit-rate traffic to detect when >> the path is restored and ramp up again with your congestion control. >> Thus, I don't see circuit breakers preventing a congestion control >> algorithm to operate under these conditions and maintain the session. If >> the congestion control isn't there that is another question. >> >>> >>> In cases like demo stands or some forms of video surveillance, lack of >>> media for several (tens) of seconds is not really a problem, whereas a >>> break that requires human intervention could be one. >>> >>> Cases where SFUs decide to selectively NOT forward some RTP but forward >>> all RTCP would also trigger false positives, while they are not a >>> problem for applications that are aware of their behaviour. >> >> A SFU must provide consistent RTCP, i.e. RTCP SRs from the SFU must >> provide RTCP statistics for what is actually forwarded, not what the SFU >> received from the originating RTP sender. > > That's a lot of must-s for something that is largely an implementation > choice and for which we only have informational documents. > > Yes, circuit breakers could probably be worked around by applications > but I am not sure how trivial this would be, especially in the case of > WebRTC. But, adaptation to path characteristic aren't trivial. What circuit breakers offers you are. Either you care about this yourself and do something better than circuit breakers to avoid tripping it, or you accept that you have to shutdown when tripping it. The fundamental statement when it comes to circuit breakers is the following: We don't want completely unresponsive traffic generators on the internet. We want the traffic generators to shutdown when they contribute to cause significant damage. > >>> IP layer network mobility à la NEMO, temporary uplink saturation because >>> someone mistakenly started a torrent client (and quit a few seconds >>> later), someone tripping over a cable and then re-plugging it, buggy NAT >>> gateways ... all of those could potentially trigger circuit breakers and >>> in all these cases both the application and the user may prefer that >>> they don't. >> >> Triggering the circuit breakers just requires the sending client to have >> taken sufficient action to prevent persistent congestion. If it does it >> can continue to transmit. >> >>> >>> Obviously browsers are a special case but we already have consent >>> freshness there and that likely covers most of the concerns for >>> undesirable streaming that circuit breakers address. >> >> The point of the circuit breakers is to prevent situations where RTP >> senders continue to blast away into a persistent congestion situation or >> onto paths that are broken. > > Yes I get that. However we already have "consent freshness" and that > will do the job in a big chunk of the cases that circuit breakers are > meant to protect. It is not clear to me that CBs would be a clear > improvement for the remainder of the cases. Yes, but circuit breakers are also likely to be adopted/required in other cases that may not have the consent freshness equivalent. But, I do agree that consent freshness will prevent one from continuing peerconnections across path outages that last longer than 30 seconds. I personally don't see it acceptable to continue to transmit without any checks even when the packet loss is high but not a complete path loss. > >>> So again, I feel circuit breakers could be a useful informative >>> reference but they can be harmful if REQUIRED. >> >> I think they will from a protect the network perspective needs to be >> REQUIRED. As I have tried to explain above, there are actions that are >> allowed within the circuit breaker specification that allows a sender to >> throttle its traffic sufficiently when it detects a path breakage, to >> keep monitoring it until it recovers and then resume transmission. But, >> if the implementation in the sender does not care to implement such >> functionality, the circuit breaker do require them to cease >> transmission. But, it do become a implementers choice. > > OK then, if we agree that this needs to be an implementation choice then > why don't we just inform implementers of that possibility and > potentially advise the W3C to add API calls to enable their use? > When I talk about implementation, I expect the media frameworks and their RTP stacks in the browsers to implement both circuit breakers and congestion control, not the javascript applications. Thus, there is no reason to have a control API. Yes, you need an API to inform the application about the actual condition so that it can make choices based on what is available. For example turning off streams in the appropriate order. >> In addition I don't think IETF should publish an RFC for a RTP media >> plane that doesn't have some REQUIRED behaviour when it comes to >> protecting the network in persistent congestion situations. > > I would agree if we actually had a flawless mechanism that would only > trigger in cases where it absolutely has to. As you have indicated > yourself: It is very hard to define programmatic rules that always do > the "Right thing" here > TCP is not flawless, nothing in this space is going to be flawless. The point with the circuit breaker is that it should have low enough risk of triggering unnecessary and that it also prevent persistent congestion state in the networks. Based on the simulations for LTE networks that Zahed presented circuit breakers do allow a media sender to be pretty bad against others before it acts. If you have data that it triggers to much, please share. I am not impressed with hand waving in this matter. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri May 16 03:36:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1A7B1A020D for ; Fri, 16 May 2014 03:36:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, J_CHICKENPOX_81=0.6] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H3xK_se0g-zE for ; Fri, 16 May 2014 03:36:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 696481A020A for ; Fri, 16 May 2014 03:36:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [130.209.247.112] (port=53964 helo=mangole.dcs.gla.ac.uk) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WlFUm-0006lA-2y; Fri, 16 May 2014 11:36:09 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: <5374CB61.60103@ericsson.com> Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 11:36:07 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2FAF1D94-DBAB-43EB-97CF-7ACA2213A7B5@iii.ca> <5374CB61.60103@ericsson.com> To: Magnus Westerlund X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: -28 X-Mythic-Debug: Threshold = On = Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/plb21-M_Mp5ffURsLy5vZ_DGLec Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 10:36:23 -0000 One small comment inline, but in general I agree with Magnus=92 = response. Colin On 15 May 2014, at 15:12, Magnus Westerlund = wrote: > Hi Suhas, >=20 > Thanks, for your review, please see comments and answers inline. >=20 > On 2014-05-10 01:36, Suhas Nandakumar wrote: >> Thanks Magnus and all for this work. I liked the way the document has >> turned out to be. >>=20 >> Apologies for the last minute response, I am been wanting to read = this >> spec and finally got some time late in this week. >>=20 >> I have listed down few points that reflect my notes when i read the >> document from a RTP implementor and WebRTC developer perspectives. >>=20 >> *Comments* >>=20 >>=20 >> 2. Handling of documents from AVTCore related to MultiStream, >> MultiStreamOptimization, MultiMediaRTPSession that are normatively >> referenced. It was not clear if all these should be normatively = referenced.=20 >=20 > Yes, they are most definitely normative references here. > - Multi-stream is the general clarification on handling multi-stream. >> =46rom my perspective these clarifications are definitely needed. >=20 > - MultiStreamOptimization we RECOMMEND due to the significant gain it > provides as soon as each endpoint have multiple SSRCs. >=20 > - MultiMediaRTPSession is a requirement to allow for audio and video = in > the same RTP session. >=20 >>=20 >> 3. RTP Taxonomy usage. This comment is applicable to the RTP = documents >> referred by this document which dont follow the Taxonomy. This caused >> lot of concept mapping in my mind to go between the different usages = to >> understand the implications. I would strongly recommend alignment = with >> the Taxonomy for these dependent documents and I volunteer to do some = of >> it If needed. >=20 > Yes, but that has to happen for each document individually. I think = this > document is pretty well aligned with the current Taxonomy draft. >=20 >>=20 >> 4. trr-int of 4 seconds has be recommended in couples of places. But = i >> dont see a reference to the choice of 4 seconds and the reason why it >> was chosen that way. I am not sure if we want to specify this detail = in >> this document. >=20 > Yes, the motivation behind this value is from the attached = presentation. > Please see slide 11, where you can see the curves for how many actual > reporting intervals will occur before an AVP and AVPF respectively = will > on average time out the other profile type based on different values = for > t-rr-int. A t-rr-int=3D4 s optimizes the number of reporting interval = for > well configured RTP sessions. The well configured is meant to avoid = the > AVPF bad behaviour when Td becomes close to T-rr-int. The first part = of > the presentation discusses that issue and can be worth reading through > also. >=20 >>=20 >> 5. Section 4.1 says, >>=20 >> * Support for multiple end-points in a single RTP session, and for >> scaling the RTCP transmission interval according to the number of >> participants in the session; support for randomised RTCP >> transmission intervals to avoid synchronisation of RTCP reports; >> support for RTCP timer reconsideration. >>=20 >> All these MUST requirements need references. If some of these belong = to >> RFC3550, then we need to say that.=20 >=20 > We propose: >=20 > o Support for multiple end-points in a single RTP session, and for > scaling the RTCP transmission interval according to the number of > participants in the session; support for randomised RTCP > transmission intervals to avoid synchronisation of RTCP reports; > support for RTCP timer reconsideration (Section 6.3.6 of > [RFC3550]) and reverse reconsideration (Section 6.3.4 of > [RFC3550]). >=20 >=20 >>=20 >> 6. Section 4.2 >> Not sure if the side note for trr-int fits in this section >=20 > I think it fits well enough. The section discusses the profiles, and a > relevant consideration is the legacy interop with AVP/SAVP senders. Do > you have a suggestion where it should be placed instead? >=20 >>=20 >> 7. Section 4.3 Para 2 >> - I felt this Para was getting too busy in laying out the cases = of >> PT Reuse combinations. Can we break it , if possible ? >=20 > Is this better? >=20 > End-points can signal support for multiple RTP payload formats, or > multiple configurations of a single RTP payload format, as long as > each unique RTP payload format configuration uses a different RTP > payload type number. As outlined in Section 4.8, the RTP payload > type number is sometimes used to associate an RTP packet stream with > a signalling context. This association is possible provided unique > RTP payload type numbers are used in each context. For example, an > RTP packet stream can be associated with an SDP "m=3D" line by > comparing the RTP payload type numbers used by the RTP packet stream > with payload types signalled in the "a=3Drtpmap:" lines in the media > sections of the SDP. This leads to the following considerations: >=20 > If RTP packet streams are being associated with signalling > contexts based on the RTP payload type, then the assignment of = RTP > payload type numbers MUST be unique across signalling contexts. >=20 > If the same RTP payload format configuration is used in multiple > contexts, then a different RTP payload type number has to be > assigned in each context to ensure uniqueness. >=20 > If the RTP payload type number is not being used to associate RTP > packet streams with a signalling context, then the same RTP > payload type number can be used to indicate the exact same RTP > payload format configuration in multiple contexts. >=20 > A single RTP payload type number MUST NOT be assigned to different > RTP payload formats, or different configurations of the same RTP > payload format, within a single RTP session. >=20 >=20 >> - We can probably delete the note referring to BUNDLE spec since >> we refer to it again in Section 4.4 where it contextually makes more = sense. >=20 > Ok, I do think it works to remove this: >=20 > (note that the different > "m=3D" lines in an SDP bundle group > [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sdp-bundle-negotiation] form a single RTP session) I=92d prefer to keep this, since this issue has been a source of = confusion in the past. >> 8. Section 4.3 Para 3 >> An end-point that has signalled support for multiple RTP payload >> formats SHOULD be able to accept data in any of those payload formats = at >> any time, unless it has previously signalled limitations on its = decoding >> capability. >>=20 >> Shouldn't the SHOULD be MUST above. If not, I think we fail = interoperability >=20 > Yes, will be included in the next version. >=20 >>=20 >> 9.Nit .. Section 4.4 Para 3 says >> Further discussion about the suitability of different RTP session >> structures and multiplexing methods to different scenarios are = suitable >> can be found in [I-D.ietf-avtcore-multiplex-guidelines] >> = . >>=20 >> How about rewording it to, >> Further discussion about the suitability of different RTP session >> structures and multiplexing methods to different scenarios can be = found >> in [I-D.ietf-avtcore-multiplex-guidelines] >> = . >>=20 >=20 > Sounds better, will incorporate. >=20 >>=20 >> 10. Section 5.1 ( Topology Recommendations) >> - Nit .. Adding reference to RTCPeerConnections might be useful >=20 > Sure, will add. >=20 >> - I dont think this document should make recommendations = against >> applicability of a particular topology for a given context. >> Specifically, the pointers to carrying out congestion control = mechanisms >> are still under development and denying a topology based on it might = not >> be a good idea. I would prefer this section referring to the Topo >> document as an informative reference and implications of each = topology >> under various scenarios should be moved in there, if needed. >=20 > That would also have been my preference. However, when this was > discussed in detail at the Stockholm RTCWEB Interim 2 years ago, = people > has strong view that they where not willing to deal with the > implications of these topologies. >=20 > The issue with Transport relay as well as an Any Source Multicast = group > is that each participating endpoint are required to handle multiple > congestion control loops, one to each receiving endpoint and act on = the > full set of different path with a common appropriately selected > response. These type of topologies are explicitly outside of the = charter > of RMCAT. >=20 > The Video switching MCU as defined in the topologies draft cause > breakage and inconsistencies in the RTP packet streams that are > difficult to handle and can result in strange congestion control > responses. That is why this is SHOULD NOT. >=20 > Please note that I started this effort with an intention of avoiding = to > make the WebRTC endpoint limited in their deployment. With that in = mind > I do see this set of limitations as a reasonable limitations. >=20 >>=20 >> 11. Section 5.1.2=20 >> Should we add the requirement for the WebRTC end-point sending = PLI >> messages? >=20 > Sorry, I am uncertain what you request here. The current section > requires an WebRTC RTP (video) sender to support PLI. The transmission > of PLI from the RTP receiving endpoint is a MAY. Do you want to change > this MAY to something else? A MUST? Please clarify your request. >=20 >=20 >>=20 >> 12. Section 10 >> - Nit - Reference to ICE is needed >=20 > Okay, will include. >=20 >>=20 >> 13. Section 11 Para 3 >> Not sure, if this is needed altogether. Probably saying a given >> Media Source might end up in several RTP Packet Streams with their >> associated SSRC following WebRTC API mechanisms defined in >=20 > I disagree. The following sentence did take some discussion to arrive = at: >=20 > "As different sets of constraints or other parameters can be applied = to > the MediaStreamTrack, each MediaStreamTrack instance added to a > RTCPeerConnection SHALL result in an independent source packet stream, > with its own set of associated packet streams, and thus different = SSRC(s)." >=20 > Yes, it is in the grey zone between W3C and IETF. However, in this = case > we have worked for a WG consensus on that this is needed guidance to > W3C. Because there are different choices here and leaving it = unspecified > is bad. Leaving it to W3C soley could result in ignoring the media > framework implications of what the API allows. >=20 >>=20 >> 14. Section 11 says >> Note: this doesn't result in a tracking issue, since the creation of >> matching CNAMEs depends on existing tracking. >>=20 >> We need bit more context here explaining the tracking or remove it >> altogether >=20 > So the sentence in the prior paragraph is not sufficient reference to > what it is? >=20 > Having two > communication sessions with the same CNAME could enable tracking of = a > user or device across different services (see Section 4.4.1 of > [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-security] for details). >=20 >=20 >=20 >>=20 >> 15. Section 8 >> There is no requirement that the data contained in such reports = be >> used, or exposed to the Javascript application, however. >> Do we need this sentence ? >=20 > With the current formulation I would say yes. It makes it clear that > unless you have explicitly negotiated its use, you are not required to > handle them in any form other than ignoring such XR reports. >=20 > I have started a discussion with my co-author about that last = paragraph > and to see if we can resolve it differently. Thus, this may be changed > but, we like to consider the most appropriate action to take care also > of Cullen's comment. >=20 >>=20 >> 16. Section 11 has, >> The above will currently force a WebRTC end-point that receives an >> MediaStreamTrack on one RTCPeerConnection and adds it as an outgoing = on >> any RTCPeerConnection to perform resynchronisation of the stream. = This, >> as the sending party needs to change the CNAME, which implies that it >> has to use a locally available system clock as timebase for the >> synchronisation. Thus, the relative relation between the timebase of = the >> incoming stream and the system sending out needs to defined. This >> relation also needs monitoring for clock drift and likely adjustments = of >> the synchronisation. The sending entity is also responsible for >> congestion control for its the sent streams. In cases of packet loss = the >> loss of incoming data also needs to be handled. This leads to the >> observation that the method that is least likely to cause issues or >> interruptions in the outgoing source packet stream is a model of full >> decoding, including repair etc followed by encoding of the media = again >> into the outgoing packet stream. Optimisations of this method is = clearly >> possible and implementation specific. >>=20 >> Probably,I am missing the context here, but I don't see the need for >> this para in this document since it is very application specific >=20 > Actually this is not application specific. It something that is way to > easy to do in the API to add an stream that is incoming over one > peerConnection and add it as outgoing on another. The WG has discussed > this and come to the consensus that we what is required by the WebRTC > implementations are to do what is described in the above text. Thus = this > is something all WebRTC endpoints that supports the API will need to > handle. >=20 > I propose no change. >=20 >>=20 >> 17 Section 12 >> - Not sure if we really need the topology details in here. But I = am >> fine going with it one way or the other. >=20 > As you say you have no issue, I would leave it in. You probably have a > good understanding what is written here. I think for a significant > number of people this will provide important information and = understanding. >=20 > I propose no change. >=20 >>=20 >> 18. Section 12.1.3 >> Should this be moved out as a separate section, since, it is more >> than just implementation guidelines >=20 > This section is placed where it is as it provides information on why = the > RTP session configuration does matter for QoS. >=20 > I propose no change. >=20 >>=20 >> 19. SSRC Collision >> It is not clear what implementation guidelines that is being >> provided. =20 >=20 > With the clarification of the first bullet, one clear implementation > guideline is provided. In addition it motivates why it matters and = also > what its limitations are. Both things worth considering. >=20 > I propose no change. >=20 > Cheers >=20 > Magnus Westerlund >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb --=20 Colin Perkins http://csperkins.org/ From nobody Fri May 16 04:34:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD45A1A0226; Fri, 16 May 2014 04:34:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KS9g9GF7ENfH; Fri, 16 May 2014 04:34:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F66E1A021C; Fri, 16 May 2014 04:34:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.4.2.p3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140516113400.20381.24325.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 04:34:00 -0700 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/0Ovc8iIeyoATr3EhHQkG9YNKm70 Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-14.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 11:34:02 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers Working Group of the IETF. Title : Web Real-Time Communication (WebRTC): Media Transport and Use of RTP Authors : Colin Perkins Magnus Westerlund Joerg Ott Filename : draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-14.txt Pages : 43 Date : 2014-05-16 Abstract: The Web Real-Time Communication (WebRTC) framework provides support for direct interactive rich communication using audio, video, text, collaboration, games, etc. between two peers' web-browsers. This memo describes the media transport aspects of the WebRTC framework. It specifies how the Real-time Transport Protocol (RTP) is used in the WebRTC context, and gives requirements for which RTP features, profiles, and extensions need to be supported. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-14 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-14 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri May 16 04:38:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7168E1A022A for ; Fri, 16 May 2014 04:38:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZNjVPlE0NRo0 for ; Fri, 16 May 2014 04:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46C571A0216 for ; Fri, 16 May 2014 04:38:22 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-f79a86d0000010e9-06-5375f8a53c41 Received: from ESESSHC018.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 2A.DE.04329.5A8F5735; Fri, 16 May 2014 13:38:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.74) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.174.1; Fri, 16 May 2014 13:38:12 +0200 Message-ID: <5375F8A4.7040901@ericsson.com> Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 13:38:12 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: References: <20140516113400.20381.24325.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20140516113400.20381.24325.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprNLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje7SH6XBBu2NMhZr/7WzOzB6LFny kymAMYrLJiU1J7MstUjfLoEr4+LnU4wFO8QqZvftYm9gPCzYxcjJISFgItH74TkjhC0mceHe erYuRi4OIYGjjBIfvjxghXCWM0ps6DoKVsUroC2x6vA1FhCbRUBVYuW8vWwgNpuAhcTNH41g tqhAsMSGh3/ZIeoFJU7OfAJWLyIgKvH68TRWEFtYwEWi4csUsJlCAo4SzZvvg/VyCjhJzHvX AlTPAXSRuERPYxBImFlAT2LK1RZGCFteonnrbGaIVm2JhqYO1gmMgrOQbJuFpGUWkpYFjMyr GEWLU4uLc9ONjPRSizKTi4vz8/TyUks2MQJD8+CW31Y7GA8+dzzEKMDBqMTD+8CiNFiINbGs uDL3EKM0B4uSOO/tXUAhgfTEktTs1NSC1KL4otKc1OJDjEwcnFINjIv7Hmmp1i2Nv3Rkz4qV sbdnhdS7aDTukT924+NZoc++6TKvbvI1qviYzX/e90Zv8pfaZbfXKn25fXFL8vR92UYKJ509 pr59FdP/0M74Wbhc4tqORXemNPs+NDwya84pK69K4x9tccsycmYFCPtOcl7lHbiqemb/7++v lb8qVjLp6p87nbiYL1yJpTgj0VCLuag4EQAkbYK8LgIAAA== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/VxtwfrZBKuNZtaoJtWAre6bPD7c Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-14.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 11:38:24 -0000 WG, This version is intended to take care of the editorial comments we received during the WG last call as well as any we authors directly agreed with and have yet to see any disagreement with. At the interim next week we will take the opportunity to go through all the changes to normative requirements as well as discuss the open issues. I will attempt to summarize these to the mailing list also, although start of them already are present in the review emails. Cheers Magnus On 2014-05-16 13:34, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : Web Real-Time Communication (WebRTC): Media Transport and Use of RTP > Authors : Colin Perkins > Magnus Westerlund > Joerg Ott > Filename : draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-14.txt > Pages : 43 > Date : 2014-05-16 > > Abstract: > The Web Real-Time Communication (WebRTC) framework provides support > for direct interactive rich communication using audio, video, text, > collaboration, games, etc. between two peers' web-browsers. This > memo describes the media transport aspects of the WebRTC framework. > It specifies how the Real-time Transport Protocol (RTP) is used in > the WebRTC context, and gives requirements for which RTP features, > profiles, and extensions need to be supported. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage/ > > There's also a htmlized version available at: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-14 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-14 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri May 16 06:23:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B3F91A019E for ; Fri, 16 May 2014 06:23:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER SECTION, Duplicate header field: "MIME-Version" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.834 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.834 tagged_above=-999 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epcpsbgr5.samsung.com (EPCPMTA) with SMTP id 51.6B.11496.05116735; Fri, 16 May 2014 22:23:28 +0900 (KST) X-AuditID: cbfee691-b7f3e6d000002ce8-98-537611508ed6 Received: from epmailer02 ( [203.254.219.142]) by epcpsbgx3.samsung.com (EPCPMTA) with SMTP id 1B.B1.11443.05116735; Fri, 16 May 2014 22:23:28 +0900 (KST) Message-id: <2B.B1.11443.05116735@epcpsbgx3.samsung.com> Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 13:23:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Kiran Kumar Guduru To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" MIME-version: 1.0 X-MTR: 20140516132311681@kiran.guduru Msgkey: 20140516132311681@kiran.guduru X-EPLocale: en_US.windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-EPWebmail-Msg-Type: personal X-EPWebmail-Reply-Demand: 0 X-EPApproval-Locale: X-EPHeader: ML X-EPTrCode: X-EPTrName: X-MLAttribute: X-RootMTR: 20140516132311681@kiran.guduru X-ParentMTR: X-ArchiveUser: X-CPGSPASS: N MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/related; boundary="=_NamoWEC-eh4j1nlth4" X-Generator: Namo ActiveSquare 7 7.0.0.45 X-Brightmail-Tracker: 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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/W7Awcx34XMVKky1zB1cmyWu0Q5M Subject: [rtcweb] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-guduru-ietf-rtcweb-codec-preferences-00.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: kiran.guduru@samsung.com List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 13:23:40 -0000 --=_NamoWEC-eh4j1nlth4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PEhUTUw+PEhFQUQ+PFRJVExFPlNhbXN1bmcgRW50ZXJwcmlzZSBQb3J0YWwgbXlTaW5nbGU8L1RJ VExFPg0KPE1FVEEgY29udGVudD0idGV4dC9odG1sOyBjaGFyc2V0PXdpbmRvd3MtMTI1MiIgaHR0 cC1lcXVpdj1Db250ZW50LVR5cGU+DQo8U1RZTEUgaWQ9bXlzaW5nbGVfc3R5bGUgdHlwZT10ZXh0 L2Nzcz5QIHsNCglNQVJHSU4tVE9QOiA1cHg7IEZPTlQtRkFNSUxZOiBBcmlhbCwgYXJpYWw7IE1B UkdJTi1CT1RUT006IDVweDsgRk9OVC1TSVpFOiA5cHQNCn0NClREIHsNCglNQVJHSU4tVE9QOiA1 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leGFTN5yl7yCDi9/CcxgCnOYxCxmLkOpy2Iqc5nBpCMzsyiZZwaTK9KspjWvic1nRhOZ2eymN78J znCKc5zkLGc2V2nOdKpznexspzvfCU8bNWOe9KynPe+Jz3zqc5/87Kc//wnQgAp0oAQtqEEPitCE KnShDG2oQx+K0BAAADs= --=_NamoWEC-eh4j1nlth4-- From nobody Fri May 16 09:51:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA4121A02B0 for ; Fri, 16 May 2014 09:51:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4DkhAtyLhitn for ; Fri, 16 May 2014 09:51:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x22e.google.com (mail-ig0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7295C1A02EF for ; Fri, 16 May 2014 09:51:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-f174.google.com with SMTP id h3so1022309igd.7 for ; Fri, 16 May 2014 09:51:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=LkSDNyTw7VBF+tAU2qpdVBbVLuNo3VLCkzxkvbFJk1o=; b=pcRCo0VurxmvFMV4EdSZ6Ske8svTzYJpyynES9KnQH2iP6cYqXSiySXn02f5dFtf9g AZSktMvoUt/K9YyyrNXvnCLk7kzV+DJd41FzThmUrJ5jUwdzHn5bbdqz7+fEGzkrkQfa fIL3S3t26LXDUxgV6PAHraZy9WZibNSqrhrT+bORqMh+NBvuqO6KcnD/yrFEnzQS12T3 Jwp2o9uCxAOkr4gLUhZj8mixSu6Hg2p6M92x3/yYavrARe3h4FeEFcYRFaKthqpCa609 nFsvbu6kU1WVZWF+BobeQHrUlVxdtY0/IIm8ofOtFsgmPaYcO6qOUKqMB/HL9TDVMvWg Kr0g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.42.52.199 with SMTP id k7mr17574731icg.4.1400259065758; Fri, 16 May 2014 09:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.200.204 with HTTP; Fri, 16 May 2014 09:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 09:51:05 -0700 Message-ID: From: Ted Hardie To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=485b397dd6093549a704f987386f Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/KZu7S-3lSp_Z_5z4AE2eOqUnP8E Subject: [rtcweb] Remote participation for RTCWEB Interim X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 16:51:15 -0000 --485b397dd6093549a704f987386f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Howdy, I have now sent calendar style invites to everyone I understood to be participating remotely in RTCWEB. If I missed you, please send me email so that I can send you one. Those should give you access to the audio and video streams from the meeting room. We will also have a jabber room, as normal. I also plan on sending similar invites to the WEBRTC/Data Capture meetings. My default is to send an invite to anyone who requested it for RTCWEB. If you get one and don't wish to attend the W3c meeting, decline the invite. If you'd prefer not to be invited for some reason, please let me know and I'll not send you one. thanks, Ted --485b397dd6093549a704f987386f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Howdy,

I have now sent calendar style invites to everyone I u= nderstood to be participating remotely in RTCWEB.=C2=A0 If I missed you, pl= ease send me email so that I can send you one.=C2=A0 Those should give you = access to the audio and video streams from the meeting room.

= We will also have a jabber room, as normal.

I also plan on sending similar invites to the WEBRTC/Data Capture meetings.= =C2=A0 My default is to send an invite to anyone who requested it for RTCWE= B.=C2=A0 If you get one and don't wish to attend the W3c meeting, decli= ne the invite.=C2=A0 If you'd prefer not to be invited for some reason,= please let me know and I'll not send you one.

= thanks,

Ted


--485b397dd6093549a704f987386f-- From nobody Sat May 17 14:06:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3997E1A0208 for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:06:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.009 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.009 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=1.592, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id if_Yiu2ZL8nn for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout-07.mxes.net (mxout-07.mxes.net [216.86.168.182]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 288F61A017C for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sjc-vpn7-167.cisco.com (unknown [128.107.239.233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 03F8B22E1F3; Sat, 17 May 2014 17:05:56 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Cullen Jennings In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 13:04:44 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Martin Thomson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/95bJvQdrJd9rTbI6XsEUSRTLvRk Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , "public-webrtc@w3.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Default candidate pool size X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 21:06:06 -0000 I think the JS app needs a way to say what it needs in the way of pool = size.=20 On May 12, 2014, at 12:15 PM, Martin Thomson = wrote: > On 11 May 2014 17:18, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>=20 >> My personal opinion is that candidate pooling is useful here and we >> should probably leave the default in the hands of the browser. I >> could live with 0 however. >=20 > I tend to agree. The selection of a default seems like a good > opportunity for browsers to optimize. For instance, a mobile device > might choose to defer gathering until it knows that it needs them; > whereas a device with a good source of power might prefer the latency > benefits associated with early gathering. No point in us specifying > this. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >=20 From nobody Sat May 17 14:06:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDA9B1A0208 for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:06:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JpZxe5XgK6yE for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:06:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout-07.mxes.net (mxout-07.mxes.net [216.86.168.182]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A847C1A017C for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sjc-vpn7-167.cisco.com (unknown [128.107.239.233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D031C22E253; Sat, 17 May 2014 17:06:04 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Cullen Jennings In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 13:19:04 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <804DCB7A-9D65-4438-82C7-1A553905984B@iii.ca> References: To: Eric Rescorla X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/K9WzHVyd0RXbM8Kv1qo0NyIuVm8 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 21:06:09 -0000 On May 11, 2014, at 6:51 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > However, we agreed in London that we would do "always trickle", and > that even if there were candidates available at the time when = CreateOffer > (because of candidate pooling) was called, they would not be included > in the initial offer. Hmm - did we agree they would not be there or they might not be there?=20= Either way, I think that things will work better if we can provide = whatever information we have available at the time the call returns. So = my preference would be that if they are in the pool, they are returned = as early as possible. I can not really see any good reasons for delaying = the return of the candidates that are available. Even when you are = doing trickily ICE, this is going to result in less round trips of = =93trickle=94 and result in closer synchronization of the connectivity = checks from both sides for the candidates that are returned in the first = offer. That will help up the success rate of trickle ICE.=20 From nobody Sat May 17 14:06:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 504F41A015E for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:06:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vA4-Wo7XHDH5 for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout-07.mxes.net (mxout-07.mxes.net [216.86.168.182]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C1531A0223 for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sjc-vpn7-167.cisco.com (unknown [128.107.239.233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 71CB822E256; Sat, 17 May 2014 17:06:07 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Cullen Jennings In-Reply-To: <53723549.1040200@ericsson.com> Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 13:20:08 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <85A01677-A754-406A-A2B7-C40F50D33355@iii.ca> References: <53723549.1040200@ericsson.com> To: Magnus Westerlund X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/RI4AzaBkueRALZ3S6z7UMK07ahA Cc: Ben Campbell , rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] WGLC review of draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 21:06:15 -0000 X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 21:06:15 -0000 On May 13, 2014, at 10:07 AM, Magnus Westerlund = wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> -- 12.1.3: >>=20 >> How does (or will) DART fit in here? Seems like it might have >> something to say, but I'm not sure how the timing relates. >=20 > So this text is the high level teaser to DART work from my = perspective. > The Dart work will have to get into some of the more subtler issues. = To > my understanding the DART output will be part of the reference chain > here. This document reference [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos] > which in its turn will reference DART. You will also likely to be able > to reach the DART document through draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports. >=20 > If the DART document becomes available and seen as ready prior to this > having gone to far down the publication process we can reconsider if > this should have a direct reference or not. For now I would leave it = out. +1 - that matches my understanding too From nobody Sat May 17 14:06:54 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 109FA1A022D for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:06:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wKEjNvO72Ixw for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout-07.mxes.net (mxout-07.mxes.net [216.86.168.182]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 37AC41A0178 for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sjc-vpn7-167.cisco.com (unknown [128.107.239.233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5F8AF22E255; Sat, 17 May 2014 17:06:13 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Cullen Jennings In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 13:27:37 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Eric Rescorla X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/JsynnLfaX5LZG8h8T4xlci_wfhY Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] (no subject) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 21:06:35 -0000 as a purely pragmatic issue, some device seem to have SDP bugs that = cause them to ignore some attributes at the session level. I don=92t = really care what we do on this as mostly I think theses devices should = fix their bugs but when people talk abut SDP interop issues, this is = occasionally an issue that comes up.=20 So I agree we need to have a SHOULD on saying where things go that could = be at either a session level or a m=3D level. Session level makes more = sense from a standards point of view but m=3D level might have slightly = better interoperability.=20 I don=92t care which we choose - perhaps some of the people that = considerers themselves and experts on why SDP has interop problems could = chime in on how important this is.=20 On May 11, 2014, at 11:52 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/19 >=20 > JSEP S 5.2.1 reads: >=20 > Attributes that are common between all m=3D sections MAY be moved = to > session-level, if explicitly defined to be valid at session-level. >=20 > We should probably encourage this. I propose we make this a SHOULD > rather than a MAY. >=20 > -Ekr >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From nobody Sat May 17 14:06:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 135CD1A0230 for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:06:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yz_9Qiugaot7 for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallback-in2.mxes.net (fallback-out2.mxes.net [216.86.168.191]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 469B21A021B for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout-07.mxes.net (mxout-07.mxes.net [216.86.168.182]) by fallback-in1.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3F7C2FD7B7 for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 17:06:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sjc-vpn7-167.cisco.com (unknown [128.107.239.233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 93F9B22E257; Sat, 17 May 2014 17:06:17 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Cullen Jennings In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 13:30:38 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7F15A160-ED6E-4B77-833F-D83AD6DD7483@iii.ca> References: To: Eric Rescorla X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/TRNbJdzck57kjjlGgznYEJElQZs Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Unique credentials for non-bundled m-lines X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 21:06:41 -0000 On May 11, 2014, at 7:55 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/17 >=20 > JSEP S 5.2.1 reads: >=20 > Each m=3D section, provided it is not being bundled into another m=3D > section, MUST generate a unique set of ICE credentials and gather its > own unique set of ICE candidates. Otherwise, it MUST use the same ICE > credentials and candidates that were used in the m=3D section that it = is > being bundled into. >=20 > But Section 15.4 of ICE explicitly permits m-lines to share > credentials, and of course ICE knows nothing of BUNDLE: >=20 > The "ice-pwd" and "ice-ufrag" attributes can appear at either the > session-level or media-level. When present in both, the value in the > media-level takes precedence. Thus, the value at the session-level is > effectively a default that applies to all media streams, unless > overridden by a media-level value. Whether present at the session or > media-level, there MUST be an ice-pwd and ice-ufrag attribute for each > media stream. If two media streams have identical ice-ufrag's, they > MUST have identical ice-pwd's. >=20 > Is there a reason for requiring unique credentials? If not I suggest > we remove this requirement. When not doing bundle, is there any problems in the consent security = with shared credential? If not, seems like we should remove this.=20= From nobody Sat May 17 14:08:53 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BC3C1A017F for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:08:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -115.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-115.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rBIKjqF2DeuE for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-4.cisco.com (alln-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.142.91]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6EEFC1A017C for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:08:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1844; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1400360926; x=1401570526; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=I+Jm2zixUZR+5HiswdfGUbboeEAFyzN9gkq8sB9xOHQ=; b=IHoaxQHa0k5JLoxkeaZ8u/92VQYbt2D8fMRuU/q5SnjMVjd3N2Ij1JHJ cplecPR6QGhXWh7nBOkYbU5robT9MithLt9uw8KkhgUJ6SWqfhW8SsHrj sOIt3i+JbVYk9roMDXLFo1gv2A64O4PYv5gpuTi+8gEDUuVSd2w3T3Ea6 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgQHAArPd1OtJV2U/2dsb2JhbABZgwaBJ6lPAQUFAZorAYELFnSCJQEBAQMBaBEFCwIBCBguMiUCBA4FiDkI0RYXhVWISDMHgyuBFQEDmVqTGoF3gUCCMA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.98,859,1392163200"; d="scan'208";a="44756090" Received: from rcdn-core-12.cisco.com ([173.37.93.148]) by alln-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 May 2014 21:08:45 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x06.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x06.cisco.com [173.37.183.80]) by rcdn-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s4HL8jOW032550 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 May 2014 21:08:45 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com ([169.254.5.121]) by xhc-rcd-x06.cisco.com ([173.37.183.80]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Sat, 17 May 2014 16:08:45 -0500 From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Draft proposal for updating Multiparty topologies in draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage Thread-Index: AQHPchQvO0wMWIDrME26aQCJfgCeoA== Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 21:08:44 +0000 Message-ID: <1B57A7DB-DF0B-4956-A6B8-1DA0B9A7FC1E@cisco.com> References: <533E7A50.5040909@ericsson.com> <53425DDE.2030005@alvestrand.no> <534288C2.6010906@ericsson.com> <5342ABBB.9050300@alvestrand.no> <534D4CC4.9040107@ericsson.com> <53635F4A.5040508@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <53635F4A.5040508@alvestrand.no> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.21.144.167] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/70Ldmg-l-ldHBeUwJWZKsNK3fg0 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Draft proposal for updating Multiparty topologies in draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 21:08:49 -0000 On May 2, 2014, at 4:03 AM, Harald Alvestrand wrote: > On 04/30/2014 11:56 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote: >> On Apr 15, 2014, at 9:14 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >>=20 >>> This limitation means that >>> some of the RTP middlebox-based topologies are not suitable for use >>> in the WebRTC environment. Specifically: >>>=20 >>> o Video switching MCUs (Topo-Video-switch-MCU) SHOULD NOT be used, >>> since they make the use of RTCP for congestion control and quality >>> of service reports problematic (see Section 3.8 of >>> [I-D.ietf-avtcore-rtp-topologies-update]). >> I think this is deserving of some WG discussion as people may not be up = to speed of what this is allowing or not allowing. My understanding was sev= eral companies at the last WebRTC Expo conference were demonstrating system= that used this type of MCU. >>=20 >> If SRTP were more flexible and there was a way to a mixer work without g= iving it the keys to the decrypt the media, I think people would be keener = on mixers but right it seems like the pro / cons invovle a trade off betwee= n significant security functionally loss and possible loss of some RTCP dat= a which many systems totally ignore. Anyway, not taking any opinion other = than this seems like a significant enough change to have some discussion on= it. >>=20 > Seems the discussion of what the effects are belongs to the threads on to= pologies-update. >=20 > RTCWEB implementations that ignore RTCP are going to break all our attemp= ts at congestion control anyway, so I'm inclined to leave them out of the s= pec. They'll break on their own. >=20 FWIW =85 Things doing audio only at relatively low bit rates that ignore RT= CP will probably continue to work fine. = From nobody Sat May 17 14:08:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A58631A017C for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:08:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -115.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-115.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QGilf8_-KKUW for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6265C1A015E for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:08:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3391; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1400360926; x=1401570526; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=YnVujG/JTiIjkXMJtnbIq7CseOBZJWe0Njm+gFttTRQ=; b=SjoYidQqsleAdlp+9IOOfEhJ55SoElGt9hebPZfFypRRGo2nsnrXWVUW dxrI16GybPzytwbiSIEnCskZb/paSrm3A0BVO5BZb8ufLx53dYijCDmsr Spzf0P9irnieyqJmm91Yb1ae4rjECxEbcLOgHhVU2YS2gMb17csIgQavd w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgoHAEnPd1OtJA2I/2dsb2JhbABZgwZPWKlPAQUFAZJuhmxRAYELFnSCJQEBAQMBAQEBawsFCwIBCBEEAQEBJwcnCxQJCAIEDgWIOQgN0QkTBIVViCoBARwzB4MrgRUEmVqTGoF3gUCBdzk X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.98,859,1392163200"; d="scan'208";a="325734726" Received: from alln-core-3.cisco.com ([173.36.13.136]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 May 2014 21:08:45 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x02.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x02.cisco.com [173.37.183.76]) by alln-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s4HL8jWW008635 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 May 2014 21:08:45 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com ([169.254.5.121]) by xhc-rcd-x02.cisco.com ([173.37.183.76]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Sat, 17 May 2014 16:08:45 -0500 From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] ICE-Lite, Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02.txt Thread-Index: AQHPchQvc/hqZUKEOUmQvfdXbbUnSw== Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 21:08:44 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20140411033753.19230.46577.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D2BD7C3@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D2BF6E5@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D2BFE90@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <024c01cf5635$92835650$b78a02f0$@stahl@intertex.se> <534937C6.5030403@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <534937C6.5030403@alvestrand.no> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.21.144.167] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <0BF0DF45B4B2D640A8AA418357B4F70B@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/_vVsr_OJgNuJtrZGrV4OryuKyro Subject: Re: [rtcweb] ICE-Lite, Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 21:08:50 -0000 A browser running full ICE needs to be able to connect with a device doing = ICE lite - that is in our requirements but to HTA point, it=92s not obvious= to me that changes what the browser needs to implement to make this work o= ther than implement ICE. Is there something I am missing? On Apr 12, 2014, at 7:55 AM, Harald Alvestrand wrote= : > On 04/12/2014 11:57 AM, Karl Stahl wrote: >> To avoid confusion=85 >> =20 >> Gateways are not mentioned in draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-03 >> =20 >> Under 3.5. Middle box related functions >> It too simply says: >> ICE [RFC5245] MUST be supported. The implementation MUST be a full >> ICE implementation, not ICE-Lite. >> =20 >> It needs to be said that gateways, i.e. devices having a media port on a= public IP address =96 never behind a NAT/firewall =96 SHOULD implement ICE= -Lite. (which browsers implementing full ICE correctly are compatible with = =96 and has to be =96 which we all have the same understanding of, I believ= e) >=20 > I think we've been over this ground before. >=20 > At the moment, the RTCWEB protocol suite documentation deals with require= ments for browsers, not requirements for gateways. >=20 > If someone wishes to start a requirements-for-gateways documents, I think= they should be free to do that - but I hope we can finish this document se= t before that. >=20 >=20 >> =20 >> =20 >> /Karl >> =20 >> =20 >> Fr=E5n: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] F=F6r Christer Holmberg >> Skickat: den 12 april 2014 10:26 >> Till: Harald Alvestrand; Martin Thomson; Ram Mohan R (rmohanr) >> Kopia: rtcweb@ietf.org >> =C4mne: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshnes= s-02.txt >> =20 >> Hi, >> =20 >> It=92s not about running a browser on ice-lite =96 it is about a browser= being prepared to run with a remote endpoint that is running ice-lite (e.g= . a gateway). Certain browser implementations have had some problems with t= hat, afaik=85 >> =20 >> Regards, >> =20 >> Christer >> =20 >> From: Harald Alvestrand [mailto:harald@alvestrand.no]=20 >> Sent: 12 April 2014 08:59 >> To: Christer Holmberg; Martin Thomson; Ram Mohan R (rmohanr) >> Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshne= ss-02.txt >> =20 >> Seems we have another reason why running a browser on ice-lite is a bad = idea. Good that we do not allow that. >>=20 >> On 11. april 2014 22:37:55 CEST, Christer Holmberg wrote: >> Hi, >> With ICE-lite mode since the ICE-lite endpoint does not typically=20 >> generate any binding requests, it may not generate STUN consent as well= . >>=20 >>=20 >> Wat? >>=20 >> Consent is generated by responding to connectivity checks. An ICE-lite = endpoint has to do that. >>=20 >>=20 >> Sure, but I guess what is meant is that the ICE-lite endpoint does not g= enerate STUN consent REQUESTS. >>=20 >> Regards, >>=20 >> Christer >>=20 >>=20 >> rtcweb mailing list >>=20 >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>=20 >> --=20 >> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From nobody Sat May 17 14:09:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B14001A0066 for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:09:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -115.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-115.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YEkb0KQGYfjm for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:09:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 647901A0225 for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:09:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2658; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1400360941; x=1401570541; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=bwcH3k9HdFP/Tgyc1OLC2Mbm6slxuGDoNYFuGcITQ8U=; b=c9NdbWjYrspI+V/gQD15t64pjc2C0SkCiR1DyjpdHvbfNnaV0Dtz6jpb VfErbfT+x96TvX1f3Gew/oo5BBgAk/gS/gcOn4uRGiY81Wq4G+YzS+de2 PxFpiSX3JIJLy5liTEB8ibb4SKiXOybQpH9lA77q9jh4HOlJg2qw1eKc7 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgkHALfPd1OtJA2J/2dsb2JhbABZgwZPWKlECwEFBQGaKwGBCxZ0giUBAQEDATo4BwULAgEINhAyJQIEDgWIOQgN0QoXhVWISDMHgyuBFQSVXoN8gT2RXYM3bQGBQg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.98,859,1392163200"; d="scan'208";a="44745467" Received: from alln-core-4.cisco.com ([173.36.13.137]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 May 2014 21:08:45 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x13.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x13.cisco.com [173.36.12.87]) by alln-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s4HL8j7s002888 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 May 2014 21:08:45 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com ([169.254.5.121]) by xhc-aln-x13.cisco.com ([173.36.12.87]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Sat, 17 May 2014 16:08:45 -0500 From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" To: Christian Groves Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] JSEP/WebRTC API Datachannel question Thread-Index: AQHPchQv6jMSmyeTPU2ewK3QQ7DAKw== Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 21:08:43 +0000 Message-ID: References: <534616DC.7090800@nteczone.com> <534CC016.3020901@nteczone.com> In-Reply-To: <534CC016.3020901@nteczone.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.21.144.167] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <0D31533E0331A744B3AE37BC4071B5EF@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/sBmQOBWtuowGQaMSOKpweCgN6Sc Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] JSEP/WebRTC API Datachannel question X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 21:09:09 -0000 On Apr 15, 2014, at 12:13 AM, Christian Groves wrote: > I'll take a punt that people were thinking about 2 below when data channe= l was added. In order to clarify that I propose to add the following text t= o the JSEP draft to clarify this. >=20 > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06#section-5.2.1 > Replace: > "Lastly, if a data channel has been created, a m=3D section MUST be > generated for data. The field MUST be set to "application" and = the field MUST be set to "DTLS/SCTP", as specified in [I-D.ietf-mmu= sic-sctp-sdp], Section 3; the "fmt" value MUST be set to the SCTP port numb= er, as specified in Section 4.1." >=20 > With: > / "Lastly, if createDataChannel has been called a m=3D section MUST be g= enerated for data. In the case of multiple createDataChannel calls only one= m=3D section is generated. The field MUST be set to "application" = and the field MUST be set to "DTLS/SCTP", as specified in [I-D.ietf= -mmusic-sctp-sdp], Section 3; the "fmt" value MUST be set to the SCTP port = number, as specified in Section 4.1."/ >=20 > New text in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06#section-= 5.2.2: > (above last paragraph) > / "If createDataChannel has been called and a m=3D section has not previo= usly been generated, a m=3D section MUST be generated for data. In the case= of multiple createDataChannel calls only one m=3D section is generated. Th= e field MUST be set to "application" and the field MUST be = set to "DTLS/SCTP", as specified in [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp], Section 3; = the "fmt" value MUST be set to the SCTP port number, as specified in Sectio= n 4.1.// > // > //If all data channels have been closed, the m=3D section related to the = data channels MUST be marked as recvonly by changing the value of the [RFC3= 264] directional attribute to "a=3Drecvonly".//"/ >=20 > It would also be good to add some text regarding the relationship between= a createDataChannel and DCEP DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN I'm not sure if the JSEP dr= aft is the place? >=20 > Also the W3C draft could be updated to indicate the interaction of a crea= teDataChannel with the negotiationneeded event in section 5.2 something alo= ng the lines of: > /7. For the first creation of a RTCDataChannel object fire a negotiationn= eeded event at connection./ >=20 >=20 > Regards, > Christian I probably need to think about this more but I think that sounds like a pre= tty reasonable change. One way or another, JSEP needs to be clear about wha= t needs to happen here.=20 From nobody Sat May 17 14:16:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA10C1A015F for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:16:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2p_AoG1Iodk7 for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mork.alvestrand.no (mork.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E24C71A022B for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9FF67C0783; Sat, 17 May 2014 23:16:13 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Received: from mork.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mork.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YD9QNohxQayK; Sat, 17 May 2014 23:16:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:de0a:27:dd76:d3d1:6691:e380] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:de0a:27:dd76:d3d1:6691:e380]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 96DED7C06F5; Sat, 17 May 2014 23:16:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <5377D19B.5030608@alvestrand.no> Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 23:16:11 +0200 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" References: <533E7A50.5040909@ericsson.com> <53425DDE.2030005@alvestrand.no> <534288C2.6010906@ericsson.com> <5342ABBB.9050300@alvestrand.no> <534D4CC4.9040107@ericsson.com> <53635F4A.5040508@alvestrand.no> <1B57A7DB-DF0B-4956-A6B8-1DA0B9A7FC1E@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <1B57A7DB-DF0B-4956-A6B8-1DA0B9A7FC1E@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/Bo6dHNG0md3PYnT1oPxhXWFPkXo Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Draft proposal for updating Multiparty topologies in draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 21:16:18 -0000 On 05/17/2014 11:08 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote: > On May 2, 2014, at 4:03 AM, Harald Alvestrand wrote: > >> On 04/30/2014 11:56 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote: >>> On Apr 15, 2014, at 9:14 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >>> >>>> This limitation means that >>>> some of the RTP middlebox-based topologies are not suitable for use >>>> in the WebRTC environment. Specifically: >>>> >>>> o Video switching MCUs (Topo-Video-switch-MCU) SHOULD NOT be used, >>>> since they make the use of RTCP for congestion control and quality >>>> of service reports problematic (see Section 3.8 of >>>> [I-D.ietf-avtcore-rtp-topologies-update]). >>> I think this is deserving of some WG discussion as people may not be up to speed of what this is allowing or not allowing. My understanding was several companies at the last WebRTC Expo conference were demonstrating system that used this type of MCU. >>> >>> If SRTP were more flexible and there was a way to a mixer work without giving it the keys to the decrypt the media, I think people would be keener on mixers but right it seems like the pro / cons invovle a trade off between significant security functionally loss and possible loss of some RTCP data which many systems totally ignore. Anyway, not taking any opinion other than this seems like a significant enough change to have some discussion on it. >>> >> Seems the discussion of what the effects are belongs to the threads on topologies-update. >> >> RTCWEB implementations that ignore RTCP are going to break all our attempts at congestion control anyway, so I'm inclined to leave them out of the spec. They'll break on their own. >> > FWIW … Things doing audio only at relatively low bit rates that ignore RTCP will probably continue to work fine. As long as "relatively low" means "low relative to the available bandwidth", I agree. They'll break when that doesn't hold. From nobody Sat May 17 14:40:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 612B81A023F for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:40:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MSGID_MULTIPLE_AT=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pn1XT5c9hRKm for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:40:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.it-norr.com (smtp.it-norr.com [80.244.64.161]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA8DB1A023B for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 14:40:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([90.229.134.75]) by smtp.it-norr.com (Telecom3 SMTP service) with ASMTP id 201405172340127628; Sat, 17 May 2014 23:40:12 +0200 From: "Karl Stahl" To: "'Cullen Jennings \(fluffy\)'" , References: <20140411033753.19230.46577.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D2BD7C3@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D2BF6E5@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D2BFE90@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <024c01cf5635$92835650$b78a02f0$@stahl@intertex.se> <534937C6.5030403@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 23:40:10 +0200 Message-ID: <041601cf7218$94866150$bd9323f0$@stahl@intertex.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AQHPchQvc/hqZUKEOUmQvfdXbbUnS5tFS+YA Content-Language: sv Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/UGlX7--h4UW8bRg9qHicaUFJOi0 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] ICE-Lite, Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 21:40:19 -0000 -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fr=E5n: Cullen Jennings (fluffy) [mailto:fluffy@cisco.com]=20 Skickat: den 17 maj 2014 23:09 Till: rtcweb@ietf.org Kopia: Karl Stahl; Christer Holmberg; Harald Tveit Alvestrand; Martin Thomson; Ram Mohan R (rmohanr) =C4mne: Re: [rtcweb] ICE-Lite, Was: I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02.txt A browser running full ICE needs to be able to connect with a device = doing ICE lite - that is in our requirements but to HTA point, it=92s not = obvious to me that changes what the browser needs to implement to make this work = other than implement ICE. Is there something I am missing? --- No, don't think so. I saw a clarifying text had been added to the = draft which could cause confusion. /Karl On Apr 12, 2014, at 7:55 AM, Harald Alvestrand = wrote: > On 04/12/2014 11:57 AM, Karl Stahl wrote: >> To avoid confusion=85 >> =20 >> Gateways are not mentioned in draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-03 >> =20 >> Under 3.5. Middle box related functions It too simply says: >> ICE [RFC5245] MUST be supported. The implementation MUST be a full >> ICE implementation, not ICE-Lite. >> =20 >> It needs to be said that gateways, i.e. devices having a media port=20 >> on a public IP address =96 never behind a NAT/firewall =96 SHOULD=20 >> implement ICE-Lite. (which browsers implementing full ICE correctly=20 >> are compatible with =96 and has to be =96 which we all have the same=20 >> understanding of, I believe) >=20 > I think we've been over this ground before. >=20 > At the moment, the RTCWEB protocol suite documentation deals with requirements for browsers, not requirements for gateways. >=20 > If someone wishes to start a requirements-for-gateways documents, I = think they should be free to do that - but I hope we can finish this document = set before that. >=20 >=20 >> =20 >> =20 >> /Karl >> =20 >> =20 >> Fr=E5n: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] F=F6r Christer = Holmberg >> Skickat: den 12 april 2014 10:26 >> Till: Harald Alvestrand; Martin Thomson; Ram Mohan R (rmohanr) >> Kopia: rtcweb@ietf.org >> =C4mne: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action:=20 >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02.txt >> =20 >> Hi, >> =20 >> It=92s not about running a browser on ice-lite =96 it is about a = browser=20 >> being prepared to run with a remote endpoint that is running ice-lite = >> (e.g. a gateway). Certain browser implementations have had some=20 >> problems with that, afaik=85 >> =20 >> Regards, >> =20 >> Christer >> =20 >> From: Harald Alvestrand [mailto:harald@alvestrand.no] >> Sent: 12 April 2014 08:59 >> To: Christer Holmberg; Martin Thomson; Ram Mohan R (rmohanr) >> Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action:=20 >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02.txt >> =20 >> Seems we have another reason why running a browser on ice-lite is a = bad idea. Good that we do not allow that. >>=20 >> On 11. april 2014 22:37:55 CEST, Christer Holmberg wrote: >> Hi, >> With ICE-lite mode since the ICE-lite endpoint does not typically =20 >> generate any binding requests, it may not generate STUN consent as = well. >>=20 >>=20 >> Wat? >>=20 >> Consent is generated by responding to connectivity checks. An = ICE-lite endpoint has to do that. >>=20 >>=20 >> Sure, but I guess what is meant is that the ICE-lite endpoint does = not generate STUN consent REQUESTS. >>=20 >> Regards, >>=20 >> Christer >>=20 >>=20 >> rtcweb mailing list >>=20 >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>=20 >> -- >> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From nobody Sat May 17 17:29:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 605BE1A023E for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 17:29:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CouTL04BuyxQ for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 17:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-f45.google.com (mail-wg0-f45.google.com [74.125.82.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E8601A01C4 for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 17:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f45.google.com with SMTP id m15so6549622wgh.16 for ; Sat, 17 May 2014 17:29:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=Yh6VZC3DvoWM3oi3FafJ8Kri97pcDOyIDLF/g8W0v0M=; b=fQvQ1yqrxzotB1pyNyyD9fQEfKl5bvjFOeuQgaz8CBXJQ3GVlXaZ6l6B8+LsyquyWE nICkUX6f6tlGcKn6Ep8oOXw3d0cBFACofZjqTwNjAXVy63paJXoh1/RwdRabDd7bQ7Zt b6vIZvVb82b/g7Znik/7xj4Lgg6uW87K4myzv2uXVpsspGmYZIfx7ew0Ol3ZZlOOMxZa aUQtL9dpHNC5V/6w9HtDx5tXXq5qOY9hY/B1wnBm7jcUylWBQGorju/lImtV9cAx0dmT zIbAP6AnW1DSgNfFYiP3VBFXX9cjjHhTGs0nEeIaZ6JpjucaqJNudMvah055HtOvdhCM IPRA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQn7o0at5r9DAu477dCiFnEhVS3NSKYTM+M+/GtcGZSFXvI9/QTXQxMk/1NLW6lKXdguEYwG X-Received: by 10.180.36.212 with SMTP id s20mr5374056wij.18.1400372977884; Sat, 17 May 2014 17:29:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.218.198 with HTTP; Sat, 17 May 2014 17:28:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [74.95.2.168] In-Reply-To: <804DCB7A-9D65-4438-82C7-1A553905984B@iii.ca> References: <804DCB7A-9D65-4438-82C7-1A553905984B@iii.ca> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 17:28:57 -0700 Message-ID: To: Cullen Jennings Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f6473c5e67a7f04f9a1bd6e Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/6xEEtoo9KimAtHSpi1aFDOdPRCU Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 00:29:41 -0000 --e89a8f6473c5e67a7f04f9a1bd6e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > > On May 11, 2014, at 6:51 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > However, we agreed in London that we would do "always trickle", and > > that even if there were candidates available at the time when CreateOff= er > > (because of candidate pooling) was called, they would not be included > > in the initial offer. > > Hmm - did we agree they would not be there or they might not be there? > My memory is that Justin argued that it would be more consistent to not have them and I agreed to check to see if that was a big deal for Firefox. It's not. > Either way, I think that things will work better if we can provide > whatever information we have available at the time the call returns. So = my > preference would be that if they are in the pool, they are returned as > early as possible. We're talking about having the onicecandidate callbacks called immediately on setLocal(), so this should't have much latency impact. > I can not really see any good reasons for delaying the return of the > candidates that are available. Even when you are doing trickily ICE, thi= s > is going to result in less round trips of =E2=80=9Ctrickle=E2=80=9D and r= esult in closer > synchronization of the connectivity checks from both sides for the > candidates that are returned in the first offer. That will help up the > success rate of trickle ICE. > See above. I don't think this analysis is really correct. -Ekr --e89a8f6473c5e67a7f04f9a1bd6e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca&g= t; wrote:

On May 11, 2014, at 6:51 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

> However, we agreed in London that we would do "always trickle&quo= t;, and
> that even if there were candidates available at the time when CreateOf= fer
> (because of candidate pooling) was called, they would not be included<= br> > in the initial offer.

Hmm - did we agree they would not be there or they might not be there= ?

My memory is that Justin argued that = it would be more consistent to
not have them and I agreed to chec= k to see if that was a big deal
for Firefox. It's not.

=C2=A0
Either way, I think that things will work better if we can provide whatever= information we have available at the time the =C2=A0call returns. So my pr= eference would be that if they are in the pool, they are returned as early = as possible.

We're talking about having the onicecandidate callb= acks called immediately
on setLocal(), so this should't have = much latency impact.


=C2=A0
I can not really see any good reasons for delaying the return of the candi= dates that are available. =C2=A0Even when you are doing trickily ICE, this = is going to result in less round trips of =E2=80=9Ctrickle=E2=80=9D and res= ult in closer synchronization of the connectivity checks from both sides fo= r the candidates that are returned in the first offer. That will help up th= e success rate of trickle ICE.

See above. I don't think this analysis= is really correct.

-Ekr

=
--e89a8f6473c5e67a7f04f9a1bd6e-- From nobody Sun May 18 02:56:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C39141A02C0 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 02:56:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jJiDnJk0bSI1 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 02:56:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 251891A01B6 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 02:56:31 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-f798c6d000001521-5a-537883cdad49 Received: from ESESSHC002.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id FB.EE.05409.DC388735; Sun, 18 May 2014 11:56:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.28]) by ESESSHC002.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.24]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Sun, 18 May 2014 11:56:29 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Cullen Jennings , Eric Rescorla Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Unique credentials for non-bundled m-lines Thread-Index: AQHPbX0CsLgPdS75CE+BKV3tudy2tZtE/7EAgAEj/MA= Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 09:56:28 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D31BEC1@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7F15A160-ED6E-4B77-833F-D83AD6DD7483@iii.ca> In-Reply-To: <7F15A160-ED6E-4B77-833F-D83AD6DD7483@iii.ca> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.149] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrOLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje7Z5opggx9f9CxWvD7HbvFh/Q9G i7X/2tkdmD2WLPnJ5HH5/EdGj8mP25gDmKO4bFJSczLLUov07RK4MpretjEVfOCuWH27l7mB 8SpnFyMHh4SAicTKmTpdjJxAppjEhXvr2boYuTiEBI4ySizZcIIFwlnMKPG8fQ0TSAObgIVE 9z9tkAYRAUeJBY82M4PYzALqEncWn2MHsYUFHCRan+9jhanpubKHGcK2kpj2bTVYDYuAqsTR nysZQWxeAV+JuZsfMUPsamCUOLf9JlgRJ1DDui9HwAYxAl33/RTIDSDLxCVuPZnPBHG1gMSS PeeZIWxRiZeP/7FC2EoSaw9vZ4Go15FYsPsTG4StLbFs4WtmiMWCEidnPmGZwCg2C8nYWUha ZiFpmYWkZQEjyypG0eLU4qTcdCNjvdSizOTi4vw8vbzUkk2MwJg6uOW36g7Gy28cDzEKcDAq 8fA+uF0eLMSaWFZcmXuIUZqDRUmc9/au0mAhgfTEktTs1NSC1KL4otKc1OJDjEwcnFINjH5W YVxqqrKzY26ynNid0qX5c2XE3XTdHSkhAQwLU+8EnG6cuXzJ4VVHWqofTTyet+lmZt0UA99N h34nLJNUFG3WeM/iPmd289+8xZsO1/351PHD0eL68uxf7NPS7xzJq924ZnW0yzLHQtZD3lca 1zpM4eIVlZrixiNtpLv9BP+V+o662NAJU5VYijMSDbWYi4oTARp9JbmKAgAA Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/b8XG7RA9z2EjI-LC-oYhZ7ZBzAM Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Unique credentials for non-bundled m-lines X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 09:56:35 -0000 Hi, >> https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/17 >>=20 >> JSEP S 5.2.1 reads: >>=20 >> Each m=3D section, provided it is not being bundled into another m=3D=20 >> section, MUST generate a unique set of ICE credentials and gather its=20 >> own unique set of ICE candidates. Otherwise, it MUST use the same ICE=20 >> credentials and candidates that were used in the m=3D section that it is= =20 >> being bundled into. >>=20 >> But Section 15.4 of ICE explicitly permits m-lines to share=20 >> credentials, and of course ICE knows nothing of BUNDLE: >>=20 >> The "ice-pwd" and "ice-ufrag" attributes can appear at either the=20 >> session-level or media-level. When present in both, the value in the=20 >> media-level takes precedence. Thus, the value at the session-level is=20 >> effectively a default that applies to all media streams, unless=20 >> overridden by a media-level value. Whether present at the session or=20 >> media-level, there MUST be an ice-pwd and ice-ufrag attribute for each=20 >> media stream. If two media streams have identical ice-ufrag's, they=20 >> MUST have identical ice-pwd's. >>=20 >> Is there a reason for requiring unique credentials? If not I suggest=20 >> we remove this requirement. > > When not doing bundle, is there any problems in the consent security with= shared credential? If=20 > not, seems like we should remove this. I guess that would mean that different BUNDLE groups could share the same c= redentials also? Regards, Christer From nobody Sun May 18 03:00:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 316491A02C0 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 03:00:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CLMkJoFVi3DS for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 03:00:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCB241A02BC for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 03:00:17 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-f798c6d000001521-52-537884af4fae Received: from ESESSHC012.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id EF.0F.05409.FA488735; Sun, 18 May 2014 12:00:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.28]) by ESESSHC012.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.54]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Sun, 18 May 2014 12:00:15 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Cullen Jennings , Eric Rescorla Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] (no subject) Thread-Index: AQHPbZ4Z2+eaI/Y5N0+VRhbcwTiuTZtE/peAgAElxPA= Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 10:00:15 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D31BED8@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.149] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrBLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje76lopgg4ZPhhYrXp9jt/iw/gej xdp/7ewOzB5Llvxk8rh8/iOjx+THbcwBzFFcNimpOZllqUX6dglcGddnPWMq+M9fMe3pN/YG xvc8XYycHBICJhKrJ3QwQdhiEhfurWfrYuTiEBI4yihx9NgjVghnMaPE6Y61jF2MHBxsAhYS 3f+0QRpEBBwlFjzazAxiMwuoS9xZfI4dxBYWUJI4tf4zK0SNssTRV9OYIGwriQUnP7CA2CwC qhJvt35lBLF5BXwlFr76ALWrgVHi3802sCJOoIaLGxrBihiBrvt+ag0TxDJxiVtP5kNdLSCx ZM95ZghbVOLl43+sELaSxNrD21kg6nUkFuz+xAZha0ssW/iaGWKxoMTJmU9YJjCKzUIydhaS lllIWmYhaVnAyLKKUbQ4tTgpN93IWC+1KDO5uDg/Ty8vtWQTIzCqDm75rbqD8fIbx0OMAhyM Sjy8D26XBwuxJpYVV+YeYpTmYFES5729qzRYSCA9sSQ1OzW1ILUovqg0J7X4ECMTB6dUA6My 49rdjnmzGK1eP2K9sUxA0jt9UnYnb4PTGbnbE/nKP9ubvbX+UCVvGiS/bb/3UbNPcy78DjX7 Puf+v5vPl9Wn8cnw88ubld2v23u2i0PdU+/ZtqV333qfvSf/s3bbreN6lQ33/7tLXTumx3Q7 rmjL3Xztw3ODrqrm/nrrNl8nKINdQ3Gx0kIlluKMREMt5qLiRAA01DWgiwIAAA== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/NTBNs9P2LttJVjHHfek7Y3hw-44 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] (no subject) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 10:00:20 -0000 Hi, I don't think we need to say anything. Because, if I receive session-level = attributes on the wire, I should not have to move them around in my JS app = before passing the SDP to JSEP. And vice verse. Also keep in mind that the session vs media does not only affect SDP attrib= utes - you have the same issue for the c=3D line. Regards, Christer -----Original Message----- From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Cullen Jennings Sent: 17 May 2014 21:28 To: Eric Rescorla Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] (no subject) as a purely pragmatic issue, some device seem to have SDP bugs that cause t= hem to ignore some attributes at the session level. I don't really care wha= t we do on this as mostly I think theses devices should fix their bugs but = when people talk abut SDP interop issues, this is occasionally an issue tha= t comes up.=20 So I agree we need to have a SHOULD on saying where things go that could be= at either a session level or a m=3D level. Session level makes more sense = from a standards point of view but m=3D level might have slightly better in= teroperability.=20 I don't care which we choose - perhaps some of the people that considerers = themselves and experts on why SDP has interop problems could chime in on ho= w important this is.=20 On May 11, 2014, at 11:52 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/19 >=20 > JSEP S 5.2.1 reads: >=20 > Attributes that are common between all m=3D sections MAY be moved to > session-level, if explicitly defined to be valid at session-level. >=20 > We should probably encourage this. I propose we make this a SHOULD=20 > rather than a MAY. >=20 > -Ekr >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From nobody Sun May 18 05:50:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F7D21A00C0 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 05:50:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, MSGID_MULTIPLE_AT=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id viwMhH_tseuW for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 05:50:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.it-norr.com (smtp.it-norr.com [80.244.64.161]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 77D981A0090 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 05:50:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([90.229.134.75]) by smtp.it-norr.com (Telecom3 SMTP service) with ASMTP id 201405181450271338; Sun, 18 May 2014 14:50:27 +0200 From: "Karl Stahl" To: , "'Cullen Jennings \(fluffy\)'" , "'Magnus Westerlund'" References: <20140502095509.21732.16127.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <043201cf7296$c9527940$5bf76bc0$@stahl@intertex.se> In-Reply-To: <043201cf7296$c9527940$5bf76bc0$@stahl@intertex.se> Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 14:50:25 +0200 Message-ID: <043601cf7297$bd6ab970$38402c50$@stahl@intertex.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AQHPZeyd/cHap6Ml70mhGHdWVtbuyJstv0cAgBhTI5CAAFCxkA== Content-Language: sv Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/7buBQuTOM2IHqDbwsJKt4f9xGYs Subject: [rtcweb] Interim agenda and network provided TURN server, draft-patil-tram-turn-serv-disc-01.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 12:50:31 -0000 Is the usage of auto discovered TURN servers by the WebRTC browser=20 written into any rtcweb draft or is that to be done?=20 I have only seen some enterprise scenario described in the informational = draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-requirements-14.txt and its requirement: = =20 F19 The browser must be able to use several STUN and TURN servers Will this be discussed during the Interim meeting now? When? Below are pointers and some comments to the=20 draft-patil-tram-turn-serv-disc-01.txt for the discovery of enterprise=20 and ISP provided TURN servers. /Karl -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fr=E5n: tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] F=F6r Karl Stahl Skickat: den 18 maj 2014 14:44 Till: 'Prashanth Patil (praspati)'; tram@ietf.org; 'Simon Perreault' =C4mne: Re: [tram] New Version Notification for draft-patil-tram-turn-serv-disc-01.txt I browsed through this document and to me it looks mature enough to be pushed forward (hopefully soon) to get an IANA anycast address etc., so these things can be put into current WebRTC browsers. As we know, many enterprises cannot use WebRTC at all today due to their restrictive = firewall policies - they need a TURN server on their LAN, discovered and used by = the WebRTC browsers to even begin using WebRTC. However, I raised a few questions and some suggestions http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg00480.html at the end of the previous version of this draft that never became = discussed and remain: A) Under 8.2 there is a suggested way to assure that the TURN server returned by the anycast method, is provided by the network provider (and = not some far away TURN server that should not be trusted to use without authentication): "... can set an IP TTL on their TURN requests that = limits how far they can travel into the public Internet." I suggest that this TTL limitation is specified (e.g. Don't look further than 3 steps - local firewall + max 2 ISP routers) and brought into = section "5. Discovery using Anycast" of the draft. B) Shall we really have more than one method? If the Anycast method can = be used by everyone, why then also have DHCP and now a two more methods? I assume you intend that all webrtc browsers implement and can use all methods? Or? (If a service provider e.g. deploys DHCP discovered TURN servers, but some webrtc browser in some operating system don't = find/cannot use the TURN server, it would be bad.) In previous discussions, there were some fears that DHCP options are not available in some common OSs. If so, I think the DHCP method should be skipped.=20 Also, if the other methods (other than anycast) may fail, why have them? = Are they better to deploy and provision for network service providers? And will webrtc browsers implement all these methods? Do we have input/feedback on these questions? Should the "connect speed factor" not also be considered? Even though = the auto discovery can be done in advance of a call, we should consider the mobility use case. With a mobile client changing network, LAN/LTE/public WiFi etc., we want to get up and run as soon as possible, so the auto discovery of a new TURN server should not be a tedious process And should the quick anycast auto discovery not be the first to be tried/used (which it is not now in the draft)? C) I noticed that referenced I-D.ietf-geopriv-res-gw-lis-discovery is now RFC7216. /Karl -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fr=E5n: tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] F=F6r Prashanth Patil = (praspati) Skickat: den 2 maj 2014 12:02 Till: tram@ietf.org =C4mne: [tram] FW: New Version Notification for draft-patil-tram-turn-serv-disc-01.txt A new revision of the TURN server discovery draft has been published. Notable updates : * 300 (Try Alternate) response for anycast. * Mechanism described in draft-kist-alto-3pdisc i.e. using the clients = own address to populate the DNS reverse zone (i.e., in-addr.arpa or = ip6.arpa) with appropriate NAPTR records pointing to the TURN server. * Learning domain names from own identity. -Prashanth On 5/2/14 3:25 PM, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" wrote: > >A new version of I-D, draft-patil-tram-turn-serv-disc-01.txt >has been successfully submitted by Prashanth Patil and posted to the=20 >IETF repository. > >Name: draft-patil-tram-turn-serv-disc >Revision: 01 >Title: TURN Server Auto Discovery >Document date: 2014-05-02 >Group: Individual Submission >Pages: 11 >URL: =20 >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-patil-tram-turn-serv-disc-01.t= xt >Status: =20 >https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-patil-tram-turn-serv-disc/ >Htmlized: =20 >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-patil-tram-turn-serv-disc-01 >Diff: =20 >http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-patil-tram-turn-serv-disc-01 > >Abstract: > Current Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN) server discovery > mechanisms are relatively static and limited to explicit > configuration. These are usually under the administrative control = of > the application or TURN service provider, and not the enterprise or > the ISP, the network in which the client is located. Enterprises = and > ISPs wishing to provide their own TURN servers need auto discovery > mechanisms that a TURN client could use with no or minimal > configuration. This document describes two such mechanisms for TURN > server discovery. > > =20 > =20 > > >Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of=20 >submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at=20 >tools.ietf.org. > >The IETF Secretariat > _______________________________________________ tram mailing list tram@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram _______________________________________________ tram mailing list tram@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram From nobody Sun May 18 05:53:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96C4B1A0095 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 05:52:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER SECTION, Duplicate header field: "MIME-Version" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.834 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, 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[172.20.52.123]) by epcpsbgr2.samsung.com (EPCPMTA) with SMTP id DD.C2.19452.72DA8735; Sun, 18 May 2014 21:52:55 +0900 (KST) X-AuditID: cbfee68e-b7fb96d000004bfc-c1-5378ad27a0cf Received: from epmailer02 ( [203.254.219.142]) by epcpsbgx3.samsung.com (EPCPMTA) with SMTP id 8D.48.13458.72DA8735; Sun, 18 May 2014 21:52:55 +0900 (KST) Message-id: <9D.48.13458.72DA8735@epcpsbgx3.samsung.com> Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 12:52:55 +0000 (GMT) From: Kiran Kumar Guduru To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , public-webrtc@w3.org MIME-version: 1.0 X-MTR: 20140518124616913@kiran.guduru Msgkey: 20140518124616913@kiran.guduru X-EPLocale: en_US.windows-1252 X-Priority: 3 X-EPWebmail-Msg-Type: personal X-EPWebmail-Reply-Demand: 0 X-EPApproval-Locale: X-EPHeader: ML X-EPTrCode: X-EPTrName: X-MLAttribute: X-RootMTR: 20140518124616913@kiran.guduru X-ParentMTR: X-ArchiveUser: X-CPGSPASS: N MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/related; boundary="=_NamoWEC-ff5u4263g9" X-Generator: Namo ActiveSquare 7 7.0.0.45 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Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04447e614f182b04f9ac8da5 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/OFgGakSGUZ5SMdtrzOJSznuK2dU Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] (no subject) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 13:23:31 -0000 --f46d04447e614f182b04f9ac8da5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 3:00 AM, Christer Holmberg < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi, > > I don't think we need to say anything. Because, if I receive session-level > attributes on the wire, I should not have to move them around in my JS app > before passing the SDP to JSEP. And vice verse. This section is instructions to the browser author. -Ekr > Also keep in mind that the session vs media does not only affect SDP > attributes - you have the same issue for the c= line. > > Regards, > > Christer > > -----Original Message----- > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Cullen Jennings > Sent: 17 May 2014 21:28 > To: Eric Rescorla > Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] (no subject) > > > as a purely pragmatic issue, some device seem to have SDP bugs that cause > them to ignore some attributes at the session level. I don't really care > what we do on this as mostly I think theses devices should fix their bugs > but when people talk abut SDP interop issues, this is occasionally an issue > that comes up. > > So I agree we need to have a SHOULD on saying where things go that could > be at either a session level or a m= level. Session level makes more sense > from a standards point of view but m= level might have slightly better > interoperability. > > I don't care which we choose - perhaps some of the people that considerers > themselves and experts on why SDP has interop problems could chime in on > how important this is. > > > > On May 11, 2014, at 11:52 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/19 > > > > JSEP S 5.2.1 reads: > > > > Attributes that are common between all m= sections MAY be moved to > > session-level, if explicitly defined to be valid at session-level. > > > > We should probably encourage this. I propose we make this a SHOULD > > rather than a MAY. > > > > -Ekr > > > > _______________________________________________ > > rtcweb mailing list > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --f46d04447e614f182b04f9ac8da5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 3:00 AM, Christer Holmberg <c= hrister.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:
Hi,

I don't think we need to say anything. Because, if I receive session-le= vel attributes on the wire, I should not have to move them around in my JS = app before passing the SDP to JSEP. And vice verse.

This section is instructions to the browser author.
-Ekr
=C2=A0
=C2= =A0
Also keep in mind that the session vs media does not only affect SDP attrib= utes - you have the same issue for the c=3D line.

Regards,

Christer

-----Original Message-----
From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-boun= ces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Cullen Jennings
Sent: 17 May 2014 21:28
To: Eric Rescorla
Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] (no subject)


as a purely pragmatic issue, = some device seem to have SDP bugs that cause them to ignore some attributes= at the session level. I don't really care what we do on this as mostly= I think theses devices should fix their bugs but when people talk abut SDP= interop issues, this is occasionally an issue that comes up.

So I agree we need to have a SHOULD on saying where things go that could be= at either a session level or a m=3D level. Session level makes more sense = from a standards point of view but m=3D level might have slightly better in= teroperability.

I don't care which we choose - perhaps some of the people that consider= ers themselves and experts on why SDP has interop problems could chime in o= n how important this is.



On May 11, 2014, at 11:52 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

> https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/19
>
> JSEP S 5.2.1 reads:
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Attributes that are common between all m=3D sections MAY = be moved to
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0session-level, if explicitly defined to be valid at sessi= on-level.
>
> We should probably encourage this. I propose we make this a SHOULD
> rather than a MAY.
>
> -Ekr
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

--f46d04447e614f182b04f9ac8da5-- From nobody Sun May 18 06:26:54 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE2F61A00EA for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 06:26:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iyEw7qz_Rj_Q for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 06:26:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f180.google.com (mail-wi0-f180.google.com [209.85.212.180]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 31C941A00D7 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 06:26:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f180.google.com with SMTP id hi2so2945629wib.1 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 06:26:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=VzZiqIzo/tk2KlU5tSX7hETSw8h3C0LLjy6XTnQv6C4=; b=HFCcSnx2bgaOPyz80VvkqevzAj7w1fThY5p/emcjkx+e2ESp0zyNlhKsVQJOAqllP2 YkCecR5OZ4A41Tlo6m2A0s4eS23uFQhzxJRTjr6ZqwAumRgVTqJpWgXAUPgoCij75E9d vtFADjt+iq4sGOAbUNDcBT+prumGhg/WyA81ff1EiNhKO3cC7byPeKhpUVm3e7K+bRQb 1+ssFzYFiTe3/is9aX58izKQP13c9yuvNLahDqmMOoJHtA2dNqrQf39sBlyESY8RTzSp NvAzipBx6DE5EiUobAfc84hXsRi2cWy/qN01k9hN7j3JSok42FgG6aQ9myFlSgoqeHwO bAzA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlUPSB3YrVSmT54jCalHyIQaBcsoGDFxKzbubNTdpZDbnZff6yJXeMUsPp1SXEqezRbV/Kn X-Received: by 10.180.97.68 with SMTP id dy4mr7680446wib.49.1400419610466; Sun, 18 May 2014 06:26:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.218.198 with HTTP; Sun, 18 May 2014 06:26:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [74.95.2.168] In-Reply-To: References: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 06:26:10 -0700 Message-ID: To: Cullen Jennings Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d044306ac6b2d2304f9ac99a0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/YOysNuVHbfd6CNh33qn84GiezS8 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , "public-webrtc@w3.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Default candidate pool size X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 13:26:53 -0000 --f46d044306ac6b2d2304f9ac99a0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 As far as I know, this has been agreed on, but the W3C spec has never been updated to reflect it. -Ekr On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 11:04 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > > I think the JS app needs a way to say what it needs in the way of pool > size. > > > On May 12, 2014, at 12:15 PM, Martin Thomson > wrote: > > > On 11 May 2014 17:18, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> > >> My personal opinion is that candidate pooling is useful here and we > >> should probably leave the default in the hands of the browser. I > >> could live with 0 however. > > > > I tend to agree. The selection of a default seems like a good > > opportunity for browsers to optimize. For instance, a mobile device > > might choose to defer gathering until it knows that it needs them; > > whereas a device with a good source of power might prefer the latency > > benefits associated with early gathering. No point in us specifying > > this. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > rtcweb mailing list > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > --f46d044306ac6b2d2304f9ac99a0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As far as I know, this has been agreed on, but the W3C spe= c has
never been updated to reflect it.

-Ekr



On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 11:04 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:

I think the JS app needs a way to say what it needs in the way of pool size= .


On May 12, 2014, at 12:15 PM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 11 May 2014 17:18, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>>
>> My personal opinion is that candidate pooling is useful here and w= e
>> should probably leave the default in the hands of the browser. I >> could live with 0 however.
>
> I tend to agree. =C2=A0The selection of a default seems like a good > opportunity for browsers to optimize. =C2=A0For instance, a mobile dev= ice
> might choose to defer gathering until it knows that it needs them;
> whereas a device with a good source of power might prefer the latency<= br> > benefits associated with early gathering. =C2=A0No point in us specify= ing
> this.
>
> __________________= _____________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>


--f46d044306ac6b2d2304f9ac99a0-- From nobody Sun May 18 06:33:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88F471A00E5 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 06:33:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -115.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-115.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id boFGvL3vmOQD for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 06:33:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 792151A006D for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 06:33:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=357; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1400420002; x=1401629602; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=jrqnxCFb8Mr2AA2e526495Q3Y7AD/bdstSUvQPSS9Pg=; b=b7tooaRam2mTLY0CF8ogIVNjSG6BY5+jitJo1D9uZocMqbGz7pgUoGQg HO0G1V7lbsqfcWOIYRwLCka0Rq1MlkNzCC/ucrGen736bqXMEpj1qMue3 ZVs25YB+ypgv8qZDCom1Oym1wOLLDQzLhz4sKBQoDh7EwA5ZBQlePusVl I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AqgHAGm1eFOtJV2U/2dsb2JhbABZgwZPWKlRAQECAQEFAZorAYEKFnSCJQEBAQMBeQULAgEIOwsyJQIEDgWIOQjRKxeFVYhIMweDK4EVAQOZWpMagXeBQIIw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.98,862,1392163200"; d="scan'208";a="325791512" Received: from rcdn-core-12.cisco.com ([173.37.93.148]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 18 May 2014 13:33:21 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com [173.36.12.81]) by rcdn-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s4IDXLfv029742 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 May 2014 13:33:21 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com ([169.254.5.121]) by xhc-aln-x07.cisco.com ([173.36.12.81]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Sun, 18 May 2014 08:33:21 -0500 From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" To: Karl Stahl Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Interim agenda and network provided TURN server, draft-patil-tram-turn-serv-disc-01.txt Thread-Index: AQHPcpfBWgIZ5lycn0yvvDDPkuy8PZtGqviA Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 13:33:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20140502095509.21732.16127.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <043201cf7296$c9527940$5bf76bc0$@stahl@intertex.se> <043601cf7297$bd6ab970$38402c50$@stahl@intertex.se> In-Reply-To: <043601cf7297$bd6ab970$38402c50$@stahl@intertex.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.82.234.31] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/RcATA4tNdYIQl6XCv66KQ9CA3MA Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Interim agenda and network provided TURN server, draft-patil-tram-turn-serv-disc-01.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 13:33:23 -0000 On May 18, 2014, at 8:50 AM, Karl Stahl wrote: > Is the usage of auto discovered TURN servers by the WebRTC browser=20 > written into any rtcweb draft or is that to be done?=20 I don=92t think so. There has been some discussion of if a pac file type ap= proach could be used much like how the HTTP proxy is discovered. = From nobody Sun May 18 07:15:12 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBD0A1A01D7 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 07:15:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2GQDWl_mVI5B for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 07:15:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) 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rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53A141A0218 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 07:49:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[MSGID_MULTIPLE_AT=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cYXKa41mLQfA for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 07:49:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.it-norr.com (smtp.it-norr.com [80.244.64.161]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C80C71A00B2 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 07:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([90.229.134.75]) by smtp.it-norr.com (Telecom3 SMTP service) with ASMTP id 201405181649277806; Sun, 18 May 2014 16:49:27 +0200 From: "Karl Stahl" To: "'Cullen Jennings \(fluffy\)'" References: <20140502095509.21732.16127.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <043201cf7296$c9527940$5bf76bc0$@stahl@intertex.se> <043601cf7297$bd6ab970$38402c50$@stahl@intertex.se> In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 16:49:25 +0200 Message-ID: <045201cf72a8$5d2f8020$178e8060$@stahl@intertex.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AQHPcpfBWgIZ5lycn0yvvDDPkuy8PZtGqviA//++dxA= Content-Language: sv Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/2utyPKS91_z7qUrxFu6tZblOIn8 Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Interim agenda and network provided TURN server, draft-patil-tram-turn-serv-disc-01.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 14:49:34 -0000 That would only be for local/static enterprise usage, not a turn server = that a network provider (enterprise or ISP) can provision and offer for = anyone using that access. The auto discovery is required for mobile devices accessing many networks and for other reasons, that pac files cannot = fulfil. /Karl -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fr=E5n: Cullen Jennings (fluffy) [mailto:fluffy@cisco.com]=20 Skickat: den 18 maj 2014 15:33 Till: Karl Stahl Kopia: rtcweb@ietf.org =C4mne: Re: [rtcweb] Interim agenda and network provided TURN server, draft-patil-tram-turn-serv-disc-01.txt On May 18, 2014, at 8:50 AM, Karl Stahl wrote: > Is the usage of auto discovered TURN servers by the WebRTC browser=20 > written into any rtcweb draft or is that to be done? I don=92t think so. There has been some discussion of if a pac file type approach could be used much like how the HTTP proxy is discovered.=20 From nobody Sun May 18 09:53:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A25931A00D7 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 09:53:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fG04HIImxN6F for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 09:53:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout-07.mxes.net (mxout-07.mxes.net [216.86.168.182]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2AB621A007C for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 09:53:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rtp-vpn3-1334.cisco.com (unknown [64.102.254.33]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0336222E253; Sun, 18 May 2014 12:53:25 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Cullen Jennings In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 12:56:31 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8C8E3AB0-F3B6-4413-BD01-05D117FF598F@iii.ca> References: To: Eric Rescorla X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/c7XjZU-CvChO1Q9UfHWUxdIg9WQ Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , "public-webrtc@w3.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Default candidate pool size X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 16:53:29 -0000 how about just adding the pool size to RTCConfiguration ? On May 18, 2014, at 9:26 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > As far as I know, this has been agreed on, but the W3C spec has > never been updated to reflect it. >=20 > -Ekr >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 11:04 AM, Cullen Jennings = wrote: >=20 > I think the JS app needs a way to say what it needs in the way of pool = size. >=20 >=20 > On May 12, 2014, at 12:15 PM, Martin Thomson = wrote: >=20 > > On 11 May 2014 17:18, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> > >> My personal opinion is that candidate pooling is useful here and we > >> should probably leave the default in the hands of the browser. I > >> could live with 0 however. > > > > I tend to agree. The selection of a default seems like a good > > opportunity for browsers to optimize. For instance, a mobile device > > might choose to defer gathering until it knows that it needs them; > > whereas a device with a good source of power might prefer the = latency > > benefits associated with early gathering. No point in us specifying > > this. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > rtcweb mailing list > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > >=20 >=20 From nobody Sun May 18 09:58:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42FC51A0166 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 09:58:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZVyTRX82sjMB for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 09:58:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x22e.google.com (mail-we0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::22e]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 261AC1A014F for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 09:58:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f174.google.com with SMTP id k48so4508235wev.19 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 09:58:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=8lkgGDnpcngTMQ64RfWeKJF+aAfmsYE57oumh4xpOIE=; b=vkDOgnqlw6ZLk2UVAkGuAmcOxT1hJgqxoIuroSjar0e4sRj8ev6WBmSwzoNSx4BOVf FwTCGnHrumwlKAAGNqflIQMw9x6vkwuORcVmPD3EqXzbVH7Hd94sUlbfz1h1hSKjMYEk 2rMcJ7C+m46P7p4cL1VeJCUP3WyaVDzYJ4yA89shAgCAas5X9HzHsC2MJ2ZHtR0agBgY z/fBrI3/7skPCFtlGaDjk00F/mT0ZoHYJFMQjgVWF27rmq2FzsNdWfEJDf1ViWCvUZ90 4R0E8fTrqQrVtLPjgQHKWJtP83MhrSg3gjuW5M5VrktFaPGSQu9qKLJElzqgCO/e8BtQ m4nQ== X-Received: by 10.195.17.169 with SMTP id gf9mr25483262wjd.10.1400432306035; Sun, 18 May 2014 09:58:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.102.130 with HTTP; Sun, 18 May 2014 09:58:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <533E7A50.5040909@ericsson.com> <53425DDE.2030005@alvestrand.no> <534288C2.6010906@ericsson.com> <5342ABBB.9050300@alvestrand.no> <534D4CC4.9040107@ericsson.com> From: Bernard Aboba Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 09:58:05 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01681bfc2224cb04f9af8e66 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/Vt5SXOm0aGIpTGZaYudg3NE01Kg Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Draft proposal for updating Multiparty topologies in draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 16:58:29 -0000 --089e01681bfc2224cb04f9af8e66 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cullen said: "My understanding was several companies at the last WebRTC Expo conference were demonstrating system that used this type of MCU." [BA] Indeed, this type of MCU is likely to be popular, because at some point the browser itself becomes the limitation. For example, tests seem to show rendering limits kicking in at roughly a dozen streams (though there have been some successful test with up to 20 streams rendered simultaneously). One way for the MCU to deal with this is to only show the "last N" speakers. This does not necessarily imply usage of the "video switching" topology, but a number of vendors are implementing it this way. Cullen also said: "If SRTP were more flexible and there was a way to a mixer work without giving it the keys to the decrypt the media, I think people would be keener on mixers" [BA] This issue also affects Scalable Forwarding Units, not just "mixers". There have been some studies of "codec-specific encryption" that show the performance effects of this, as well as the security impact. [1] [1] Efficient In-Network Adaptation of Encrypted H.264/SVC Content (2009) by by Hermann Hellwagner , Robert Kuschnig , Thomas St=C3=BCtz , Andreas Uh= l On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 2:56 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote: > > On Apr 15, 2014, at 9:14 AM, Magnus Westerlund < > magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote: > > > This limitation means that > > some of the RTP middlebox-based topologies are not suitable for use > > in the WebRTC environment. Specifically: > > > > o Video switching MCUs (Topo-Video-switch-MCU) SHOULD NOT be used, > > since they make the use of RTCP for congestion control and quality > > of service reports problematic (see Section 3.8 of > > [I-D.ietf-avtcore-rtp-topologies-update]). > > I think this is deserving of some WG discussion as people may not be up t= o > speed of what this is allowing or not allowing. My understanding was > several companies at the last WebRTC Expo conference were demonstrating > system that used this type of MCU. > > If SRTP were more flexible and there was a way to a mixer work without > giving it the keys to the decrypt the media, I think people would be keen= er > on mixers but right it seems like the pro / cons invovle a trade off > between significant security functionally loss and possible loss of some > RTCP data which many systems totally ignore. Anyway, not taking any > opinion other than this seems like a significant enough change to have so= me > discussion on it. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --089e01681bfc2224cb04f9af8e66 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Cullen said:

"My under= standing was several companies at the last WebRTC Expo conference were demo= nstrating system that used this type of MCU."

[BA] Indeed, this type of MCU is likely to be popular, because at some poin= t the browser itself becomes the limitation.=C2=A0 For example, tests seem = to show rendering limits kicking in at roughly a dozen streams (though ther= e have been some successful test with up to 20 streams rendered simultaneou= sly).=C2=A0 One way for the MCU to deal with this is to only show the "= ;last N" speakers.=C2=A0 This does not necessarily imply usage of the = "video switching" topology, but a number of vendors are implement= ing it this way.

Cullen also said:

"If SRTP were mor= e flexible and there was a way to a mixer work without giving it the keys t= o the decrypt the media, I think people would be keener on mixers"

[BA] This issue also affects Scalable Forwarding Units,= not just "mixers".=C2=A0 =C2=A0There have been some studies of &= quot;codec-specific encryption" that show the performance effects of t= his, as well as the security impact. [1]

[1] Efficient In-Network Adaptation of Encrypted H.264/= SVC Content (2009) by by = Hermann Hellwagner , = Robert Kuschnig = , Th= omas St=C3=BCtz , = Andreas Uhl



On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 2:56 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) <fluffy@c= isco.com> wrote:

On Apr 15, 2014, at 9:14 AM, Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:

> This limitation means that
> =C2=A0 some of the RTP middlebox-based topologies are not suitable for= use
> =C2=A0 in the WebRTC environment. =C2=A0Specifically:
>
> =C2=A0 o =C2=A0Video switching MCUs (Topo-Video-switch-MCU) SHOULD NOT= be used,
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0since they make the use of RTCP for congestion con= trol and quality
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of service reports problematic (see Section 3.8 of=
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[I-D.ietf-avtcore-rtp-topologies-update]).

I think this is deserving of some WG discussion as people may not be up to = speed of what this is allowing or not allowing. My understanding was severa= l companies at the last WebRTC Expo conference were demonstrating system th= at used this type of MCU.

If SRTP were more flexible and there was a way to a mixer work without givi= ng it the keys to the decrypt the media, I think people would be keener on = mixers but right it seems like the pro / cons invovle a trade off between s= ignificant security functionally loss and possible loss of some RTCP data w= hich many systems totally ignore. =C2=A0Anyway, not taking any opinion othe= r than this seems like a significant enough change to have some discussion = on it.





_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

--089e01681bfc2224cb04f9af8e66-- From nobody Sun May 18 10:06:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BA091A01B6 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:06:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.129 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.129 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I1ZPaaE-XuyS for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x233.google.com (mail-vc0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c03::233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 942F51A0197 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f179.google.com with SMTP id im17so8401593vcb.24 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:06:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=kGYmZ4n8oHSZDP8L6pHKEUT+bjW42O+rnmKqXzSVSq8=; b=Z0iBwmgkiR6Di/Yyzw0LS8fpKMTCWMeLaniaFnElM5qYEDF71Zymzg+rhdzw8L4az/ Un2dd7nYtozEL3ou6ZcvoNGaBDRDXs9QIrPsLwR018M4imPwvyAxDuxmOaVGnZcYvElA pRQP+XA+RroVz23I2ojjMpcXuQrQ4OclAq8EmqDV2WVwKk/ixj+ic62HKFXfBSqTEXVU 5mZokNEi9QZTL+GVTVIkEhwmEs0P+SRY4Nmkgo0o8V6hODE+G92pkSa8Og25vScAYR1O EOTdK5XGv7fdi5XzlC3VKmDVx0OupotTbp8em9VnAOthStuFfxTGpJnuCtr44aN7JQ/m 1Nww== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=kGYmZ4n8oHSZDP8L6pHKEUT+bjW42O+rnmKqXzSVSq8=; b=ObtoEuAofMRopF3zCDJ5RFwKZ/c7qTnl+Ky7nchKTRiahcb2D7Qb3SbZJlef+leuu5 2uTPqSvvZtm0aCJv5/s9r4JrSXDmp/NqCighnytkXQ4fHe06A9YPdsp0dgftnSQhPf5q Zl1zd3d84z3VyNBCs7vRqz1E+d/Et90TInYuQNx9Cp9BRwFiPqqbPZEt3wInG1QGtfnf rZJrzKrbxxOd3stumEhLcNEb78T6slfWFiO1ohRBUD8EPar1rkSOBaeNDcUWc2jl9hN3 bqOJnLhHAzHUYsMafDv7dkVYpFCtaVn6mXkUwGelgAefynWMvPUDJ7/gjFsPEuMmKouA 7ZFg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlQAhIQc+3+pCYWqfR3HwnfCkDdib6iNk8h/d2sY0fvPoGHwXU/XdSKDq3LbSSL4gDWZ/X5 X-Received: by 10.52.125.147 with SMTP id mq19mr7739102vdb.2.1400432775851; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:06:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.145.105 with HTTP; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:05:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <8C8E3AB0-F3B6-4413-BD01-05D117FF598F@iii.ca> References: <8C8E3AB0-F3B6-4413-BD01-05D117FF598F@iii.ca> From: Justin Uberti Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 10:05:54 -0700 Message-ID: To: Cullen Jennings Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec51b97b3230b5204f9afaa47 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/f6n1NeyTvKTw7LBtTSpnovkMkfA Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , "public-webrtc@w3.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Default candidate pool size X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 17:06:18 -0000 --bcaec51b97b3230b5204f9afaa47 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Sounds good to me. As to the default, I'm fine with leaving it unspecified. Regarding the email from Kiran: - onicecandidate never fires until after setLocalDescription is called, regardless of candidate pooling. Candidate pooling just causes any pooled candidates to be emitted immediately once setLocalDescription is called. - candidates specified in setLocalDescription are ignored. We could make it an error to pass in candidates that the browser hasn't given to you, but that doesn't seem super critical. On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > > how about just adding the pool size to RTCConfiguration ? > > On May 18, 2014, at 9:26 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > As far as I know, this has been agreed on, but the W3C spec has > > never been updated to reflect it. > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > > > On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 11:04 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > > > > I think the JS app needs a way to say what it needs in the way of pool > size. > > > > > > On May 12, 2014, at 12:15 PM, Martin Thomson > wrote: > > > > > On 11 May 2014 17:18, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > >> > > >> My personal opinion is that candidate pooling is useful here and we > > >> should probably leave the default in the hands of the browser. I > > >> could live with 0 however. > > > > > > I tend to agree. The selection of a default seems like a good > > > opportunity for browsers to optimize. For instance, a mobile device > > > might choose to defer gathering until it knows that it needs them; > > > whereas a device with a good source of power might prefer the latency > > > benefits associated with early gathering. No point in us specifying > > > this. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > rtcweb mailing list > > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --bcaec51b97b3230b5204f9afaa47 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sounds good to me. As to the default, I'm fine with le= aving it unspecified.

Regarding the email from Kiran:
- onicecandidate never fires until after setLocalDescription is cal= led, regardless of candidate pooling. Candidate pooling just causes any poo= led candidates to be emitted immediately once setLocalDescription is called= .
- candidates specified in setLocalDescription are ignored. We could ma= ke it an error to pass in candidates that the browser hasn't given to y= ou, but that doesn't seem super critical.


On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Cullen = Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:

On May 18, 2014, at 9:26 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

> As far as I know, this has been agreed on, but the W3C spec has
> never been updated to reflect it.
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 11:04 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:
>
> I think the JS app needs a way to say what it needs in the way of pool= size.
>
>
> On May 12, 2014, at 12:15 PM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 11 May 2014 17:18, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> My personal opinion is that candidate pooling is useful here = and we
> >> should probably leave the default in the hands of the browser= . I
> >> could live with 0 however.
> >
> > I tend to agree. =C2=A0The selection of a default seems like a go= od
> > opportunity for browsers to optimize. =C2=A0For instance, a mobil= e device
> > might choose to defer gathering until it knows that it needs them= ;
> > whereas a device with a good source of power might prefer the lat= ency
> > benefits associated with early gathering. =C2=A0No point in us sp= ecifying
> > this.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > rtcweb mailing list
> > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> >
>
>

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

--bcaec51b97b3230b5204f9afaa47-- From nobody Sun May 18 10:11:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F27DA1A0160 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:11:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.077 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.077 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id diczRU9QZjXt for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f172.google.com (mail-wi0-f172.google.com [209.85.212.172]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 85DD91A011A for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:11:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f172.google.com with SMTP id hi2so3056423wib.5 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:11:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=m26gfx5ybdEfvLfmL98qyn5VATP0sYxw51S5wADzh9s=; b=EsVyHM9ClqWWjwjSlAs67YDPkWEP66d7mV1rFee4rjwB11kw8mxTZLlFRlGorJSk2X ARbSGKrIP1icsplPnPE6rgN5MXhv8M2SVbcMmNGGJKiX4P5I9bYlQEolPHqI5nuSn67B rUp6FDRnS5yLixJuPMA85aOU0U0ZTAALLQ3evJCjaAvqxL1EqUaBUZ1dk3FpCIwOTVM6 +Y9cb//51md4n/bRe+y8zmjWu/XXw33paebpjVQ/UTof88hYguHftrVPbBnXRejo/TKC FFDeMQ50PfkvT4vWigBsS3QMCDBhH+7+NUvaT5LMTJnWwuirJ/6b9cpcT2AEn7NHZjVJ s3CQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQn/pRUPMpa9LlTc4PHic+OVLudPXtohWaI7Guv1XhLoBTXAfehK1l/wB9vlHZAdgnb3GJsS X-Received: by 10.180.97.68 with SMTP id dy4mr8469319wib.49.1400433101396; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:11:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.218.198 with HTTP; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:11:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [74.95.2.168] In-Reply-To: References: <8C8E3AB0-F3B6-4413-BD01-05D117FF598F@iii.ca> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 10:11:00 -0700 Message-ID: To: Justin Uberti Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d044306ac8a79c104f9afbd20 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/o_Jld_KUzTAuebJK6QBer26V3n4 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , "public-webrtc@w3.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Default candidate pool size X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 17:11:45 -0000 --f46d044306ac8a79c104f9afbd20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 10:05 AM, Justin Uberti wrote: > Sounds good to me. As to the default, I'm fine with leaving it unspecified. > > Regarding the email from Kiran: > - onicecandidate never fires until after setLocalDescription is called, > regardless of candidate pooling. Candidate pooling just causes any pooled > candidates to be emitted immediately once setLocalDescription is called. > - candidates specified in setLocalDescription are ignored. We could make > it an error to pass in candidates that the browser hasn't given to you, but > that doesn't seem super critical. > This seems like it's coupled to the more general question of how we behave when someone passes in stuff in SetLocal that doesn't correspond to stuff we allow you to change in the SDP. My general preference would be an error in all such cases, but I could be talked out of that. -Ekr > On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > >> >> how about just adding the pool size to RTCConfiguration ? >> >> On May 18, 2014, at 9:26 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >> > As far as I know, this has been agreed on, but the W3C spec has >> > never been updated to reflect it. >> > >> > -Ekr >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 11:04 AM, Cullen Jennings >> wrote: >> > >> > I think the JS app needs a way to say what it needs in the way of pool >> size. >> > >> > >> > On May 12, 2014, at 12:15 PM, Martin Thomson >> wrote: >> > >> > > On 11 May 2014 17:18, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> > >> >> > >> My personal opinion is that candidate pooling is useful here and we >> > >> should probably leave the default in the hands of the browser. I >> > >> could live with 0 however. >> > > >> > > I tend to agree. The selection of a default seems like a good >> > > opportunity for browsers to optimize. For instance, a mobile device >> > > might choose to defer gathering until it knows that it needs them; >> > > whereas a device with a good source of power might prefer the latency >> > > benefits associated with early gathering. No point in us specifying >> > > this. >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > rtcweb mailing list >> > > rtcweb@ietf.org >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> > > >> > >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> > > --f46d044306ac8a79c104f9afbd20 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 10:05 AM, Justin Uberti &= lt;juberti@google.c= om> wrote:
Sounds good to me. As to th= e default, I'm fine with leaving it unspecified.

Reg= arding the email from Kiran:
- onicecandidate never fires until after setLocalDescription is called= , regardless of candidate pooling. Candidate pooling just causes any pooled= candidates to be emitted immediately once setLocalDescription is called.
- candidates specified in setLocalDescription are ignored. We could ma= ke it an error to pass in candidates that the browser hasn't given to y= ou, but that doesn't seem super critical.

This seems like it's coupled to the more general qu= estion of how
we behave when someone passes in stuff in SetLocal = that doesn't
correspond to stuff we allow you to change in th= e SDP. My general
preference would be an error in all such cases, but I could be talked<= /div>
out of that.

-Ekr


On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluff= y@iii.ca> wrote:

how about just adding the pool size to RTCConfiguration ?

On May 18, 2014, at 9:26 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

> As far as I know, this has been agreed on, but the W3C spec has
> never been updated to reflect it.
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 11:04 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:
>
> I think the JS app needs a way to say what it needs in the way of pool= size.
>
>
> On May 12, 2014, at 12:15 PM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> w= rote:
>
> > On 11 May 2014 17:18, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> My personal opinion is that candidate pooling is useful here = and we
> >> should probably leave the default in the hands of the browser= . I
> >> could live with 0 however.
> >
> > I tend to agree. =C2=A0The selection of a default seems like a go= od
> > opportunity for browsers to optimize. =C2=A0For instance, a mobil= e device
> > might choose to defer gathering until it knows that it needs them= ;
> > whereas a device with a good source of power might prefer the lat= ency
> > benefits associated with early gathering. =C2=A0No point in us sp= ecifying
> > this.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > rtcweb mailing list
> > rtcweb@ietf.= org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> >
>
>

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


--f46d044306ac8a79c104f9afbd20-- From nobody Sun May 18 10:15:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52FCB1A011B for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:15:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.129 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.129 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1F2wlMg6fnPf for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x22f.google.com (mail-vc0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22f]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D3D31A014B for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f175.google.com with SMTP id hu19so8371016vcb.6 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:15:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=5C8e8/rvfmYBQkppZ8E2PcXpcQGFOT0QhcIo7yimWwg=; b=KzbTzZ9s3CjTRUvCOSDxcfc/g9RmsWoCD9eBOULupuKM90jI/JRD1YQoOPUBUPmFnE xwvzUxdLmSUMSXiwI1PvMxsd0P/2rCgdGVo4FWEc1Doo8YPCumUQ7PZKiAtmwaDwRuvD /3S8cU9ReHcQuT26SU9yBQbN412lhxUHAr3kHSLVpVKJ4/D8mppRsrw/yNMnrQm+K0U5 S9jJjNT9+SCE4s4TJNiArJrYc1Iklt4a7hbKabGk/s6ZI435hC1ahGifOtwHpQY9qsaX tI8WZyAiIHT+yvbk/G9sK1r1oqq696rjRD8yQY3aEt6xKftxxucI4y8H5Xbj/d9uUhmC bSyw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=5C8e8/rvfmYBQkppZ8E2PcXpcQGFOT0QhcIo7yimWwg=; b=Iro1UGFRU6fW82ezkkddAJDJdlJcx9Q0m8rJWN/63lX5kh882nlLZriMFgyN7VG1BY 0+mEiFOLB9I86ebSFpctKPniHR+wPPU2sLdSepyJEUtO0noQLzbknlIYikb5X1edGvsK ORqv1F2oEXoHVTLtbE4jxl8WA91pm6OJH4xv6yeuspA4HPdt29RKohTLJXmlv8EEBrg2 CrZmb29Nblf5x5USjRFLOCq+coQVwR74QXppDfnWMvnstwK7191jIQh+gMGvJzTm1xfi alUOJ362BtyE0RdT+IL7H+OHQEbvk/VacE9KCTRwBbjGPzNUNdkcJ7R0DoxprGtXPk4J pvnQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkKrgJ9tbgyZgw0FJUPgIr+pPASFdP/LCnMe8+HP1+cAbxvQuLkWcdZCOnPCfBVvKUjlivg X-Received: by 10.58.134.101 with SMTP id pj5mr1498420veb.38.1400433348963; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:15:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.145.105 with HTTP; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:15:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <8C8E3AB0-F3B6-4413-BD01-05D117FF598F@iii.ca> From: Justin Uberti Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 10:15:28 -0700 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01183daa4c0d3a04f9afcc9a Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/OgXn4RGsBEdYpS6qhnNIIbBG8D8 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , "public-webrtc@w3.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Default candidate pool size X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 17:15:51 -0000 --089e01183daa4c0d3a04f9afcc9a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 That would be my preference as well. Due to timing, it shouldn't be an error to pass in a local desc that has *fewer* candidates than the ICE agent knows about, but you should never be able to pass in more. On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 10:05 AM, Justin Uberti wrote: > >> Sounds good to me. As to the default, I'm fine with leaving it >> unspecified. >> >> Regarding the email from Kiran: >> - onicecandidate never fires until after setLocalDescription is called, >> regardless of candidate pooling. Candidate pooling just causes any pooled >> candidates to be emitted immediately once setLocalDescription is called. >> - candidates specified in setLocalDescription are ignored. We could make >> it an error to pass in candidates that the browser hasn't given to you, but >> that doesn't seem super critical. >> > > This seems like it's coupled to the more general question of how > we behave when someone passes in stuff in SetLocal that doesn't > correspond to stuff we allow you to change in the SDP. My general > preference would be an error in all such cases, but I could be talked > out of that. > > -Ekr > > >> On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote: >> >>> >>> how about just adding the pool size to RTCConfiguration ? >>> >>> On May 18, 2014, at 9:26 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>> >>> > As far as I know, this has been agreed on, but the W3C spec has >>> > never been updated to reflect it. >>> > >>> > -Ekr >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 11:04 AM, Cullen Jennings >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > I think the JS app needs a way to say what it needs in the way of pool >>> size. >>> > >>> > >>> > On May 12, 2014, at 12:15 PM, Martin Thomson >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > > On 11 May 2014 17:18, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>> > >> >>> > >> My personal opinion is that candidate pooling is useful here and we >>> > >> should probably leave the default in the hands of the browser. I >>> > >> could live with 0 however. >>> > > >>> > > I tend to agree. The selection of a default seems like a good >>> > > opportunity for browsers to optimize. For instance, a mobile device >>> > > might choose to defer gathering until it knows that it needs them; >>> > > whereas a device with a good source of power might prefer the latency >>> > > benefits associated with early gathering. No point in us specifying >>> > > this. >>> > > >>> > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > rtcweb mailing list >>> > > rtcweb@ietf.org >>> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> rtcweb mailing list >>> rtcweb@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>> >> >> > --089e01183daa4c0d3a04f9afcc9a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
That would be my preference as well. Due to timing, it sho= uldn't be an error to pass in a local desc that has *fewer* candidates = than the ICE agent knows about, but you should never be able to pass in mor= e.


On Sun, May 1= 8, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:



On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 10:05 AM, Justin Uberti <= juberti@google.com> wrote:
Sounds good to me. As to th= e default, I'm fine with leaving it unspecified.

Reg= arding the email from Kiran:
- onicecandidate never fires until after setLocalDescription is called= , regardless of candidate pooling. Candidate pooling just causes any pooled= candidates to be emitted immediately once setLocalDescription is called.
- candidates specified in setLocalDescription are ignored. We could ma= ke it an error to pass in candidates that the browser hasn't given to y= ou, but that doesn't seem super critical.

This seems like it's coupled to the more gene= ral question of how
we behave when someone passes in stuff in Set= Local that doesn't
correspond to stuff we allow you to change= in the SDP. My general
preference would be an error in all such cases, but I could be talked<= /div>
out of that.

-Ekr


On Sun,= May 18, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:=

how about just adding the pool size to RTCConfiguration ?

On May 18, 2014, at 9:26 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

> As far as I know, this has been agreed on, but the W3C spec has
> never been updated to reflect it.
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 11:04 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:
>
> I think the JS app needs a way to say what it needs in the way of pool= size.
>
>
> On May 12, 2014, at 12:15 PM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> w= rote:
>
> > On 11 May 2014 17:18, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> My personal opinion is that candidate pooling is useful here = and we
> >> should probably leave the default in the hands of the browser= . I
> >> could live with 0 however.
> >
> > I tend to agree. =C2=A0The selection of a default seems like a go= od
> > opportunity for browsers to optimize. =C2=A0For instance, a mobil= e device
> > might choose to defer gathering until it knows that it needs them= ;
> > whereas a device with a good source of power might prefer the lat= ency
> > benefits associated with early gathering. =C2=A0No point in us sp= ecifying
> > this.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > rtcweb mailing list
> > rtcweb@ietf.= org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> >
>
>

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb



--089e01183daa4c0d3a04f9afcc9a-- From nobody Sun May 18 10:39:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CB021A01B1 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:39:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.077 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.077 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zauwAUdWD2xE for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-f173.google.com (mail-we0-f173.google.com [74.125.82.173]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 650CE1A016C for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f173.google.com with SMTP id u57so4518621wes.18 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:39:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=pFwwQOPl7mbpi+0K+qPDukyMvx9wMfHJwfddyU8W5wg=; b=jSLS3fzqht9j+tNMr/zi+RDbYkjroKNw9nisyEJdA3ta0nIKlxsgIZS6iLkkvCVtoF P57FVsqmbwoJ2+yVUyIuo3LJQ30tww++5skEG+USZKiWZJacBQyoW2sUVoMj2KUW3BYa hQmjAHsje8EB9UNm0w0RSm4R6KmA2e7zlG4HNaFsMYEqNZvwGOtASQyB8iRJ4jabEehF 51WtWncz0shBjvc+amJX8iVXC0fquUmLLHN/NekGEeEzmN/h+HI5jq1UFkzDcomL7nvs WiQQbj5EBpO3tbBc9MP9JwJnMYt5Rxei3RBBv98qC4iCOWTGP7KC9fH9Qb2A45XP5bhm JI0A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQn3L3haRq3O6NxpWRf9/JffYvk4fbfhFFB46yXy0mZLAdkz9TIJdZcwb7qnbhVPZE/sxdfb X-Received: by 10.180.94.226 with SMTP id df2mr8601710wib.1.1400434752424; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:39:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.218.198 with HTTP; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:38:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [74.95.2.168] In-Reply-To: References: <8C8E3AB0-F3B6-4413-BD01-05D117FF598F@iii.ca> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 10:38:32 -0700 Message-ID: To: Justin Uberti Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04447e61f3272d04f9b01f4f Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/LFH2rGzfo_TqaTp58YyuscyBI-U Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , "public-webrtc@w3.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Default candidate pool size X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 17:39:16 -0000 --f46d04447e61f3272d04f9b01f4f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Justin Uberti wrote: > That would be my preference as well. Due to timing, it shouldn't be an > error to pass in a local desc that has *fewer* candidates than the ICE > agent knows about, > However, i would prefer it doesn't have any impact on which candidates are used, since nothing makes you do setLocalDescription() with any ICE candidates. If we need some way to refuse an ice candidate (which I don't think we do) it should be in onicecandidate. -Ekr > but you should never be able to pass in more. > > > On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> >> >> >> On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 10:05 AM, Justin Uberti wrote: >> >>> Sounds good to me. As to the default, I'm fine with leaving it >>> unspecified. >>> >>> Regarding the email from Kiran: >>> - onicecandidate never fires until after setLocalDescription is called, >>> regardless of candidate pooling. Candidate pooling just causes any pooled >>> candidates to be emitted immediately once setLocalDescription is called. >>> - candidates specified in setLocalDescription are ignored. We could make >>> it an error to pass in candidates that the browser hasn't given to you, but >>> that doesn't seem super critical. >>> >> >> This seems like it's coupled to the more general question of how >> we behave when someone passes in stuff in SetLocal that doesn't >> correspond to stuff we allow you to change in the SDP. My general >> preference would be an error in all such cases, but I could be talked >> out of that. >> >> -Ekr >> >> >>> On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> how about just adding the pool size to RTCConfiguration ? >>>> >>>> On May 18, 2014, at 9:26 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>>> >>>> > As far as I know, this has been agreed on, but the W3C spec has >>>> > never been updated to reflect it. >>>> > >>>> > -Ekr >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 11:04 AM, Cullen Jennings >>>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > I think the JS app needs a way to say what it needs in the way of >>>> pool size. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On May 12, 2014, at 12:15 PM, Martin Thomson < >>>> martin.thomson@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > > On 11 May 2014 17:18, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>>> > >> >>>> > >> My personal opinion is that candidate pooling is useful here and we >>>> > >> should probably leave the default in the hands of the browser. I >>>> > >> could live with 0 however. >>>> > > >>>> > > I tend to agree. The selection of a default seems like a good >>>> > > opportunity for browsers to optimize. For instance, a mobile device >>>> > > might choose to defer gathering until it knows that it needs them; >>>> > > whereas a device with a good source of power might prefer the >>>> latency >>>> > > benefits associated with early gathering. No point in us specifying >>>> > > this. >>>> > > >>>> > > _______________________________________________ >>>> > > rtcweb mailing list >>>> > > rtcweb@ietf.org >>>> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> rtcweb mailing list >>>> rtcweb@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>>> >>> >>> >> > --f46d04447e61f3272d04f9b01f4f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Justin Uberti &= lt;juberti@google.c= om> wrote:
That would be my preference= as well. Due to timing, it shouldn't be an error to pass in a local de= sc that has *fewer* candidates than the ICE agent knows about,

However, i would prefer it doesn't hav= e any impact on which
candidates are used, since nothing makes yo= u do setLocalDescription()
with any ICE candidates. If we need so= me way to refuse an ice candidate
(which I don't think we do) it should be in onicecandidate.
<= div>
-Ekr


=C2=A0
but you should never be able to pass in more.


On Sun, May 1= 8, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:



On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 10:05 AM, Justin Uberti <juberti@goo= gle.com> wrote:
Sounds good to me. As to th= e default, I'm fine with leaving it unspecified.

Reg= arding the email from Kiran:
- onicecandidate never fires until after setLocalDescription is called= , regardless of candidate pooling. Candidate pooling just causes any pooled= candidates to be emitted immediately once setLocalDescription is called.
- candidates specified in setLocalDescription are ignored. We could ma= ke it an error to pass in candidates that the browser hasn't given to y= ou, but that doesn't seem super critical.

This seems like it's coupled to the more gene= ral question of how
we behave when someone passes in stuff in Set= Local that doesn't
correspond to stuff we allow you to change= in the SDP. My general
preference would be an error in all such cases, but I could be talked<= /div>
out of that.

-Ekr

On Sun,= May 18, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:=

how about just adding the pool size to RTCConfiguration ?

On May 18, 2014, at 9:26 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

> As far as I know, this has been agreed on, but the W3C spec has
> never been updated to reflect it.
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 11:04 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:
>
> I think the JS app needs a way to say what it needs in the way of pool= size.
>
>
> On May 12, 2014, at 12:15 PM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> w= rote:
>
> > On 11 May 2014 17:18, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> My personal opinion is that candidate pooling is useful here = and we
> >> should probably leave the default in the hands of the browser= . I
> >> could live with 0 however.
> >
> > I tend to agree. =C2=A0The selection of a default seems like a go= od
> > opportunity for browsers to optimize. =C2=A0For instance, a mobil= e device
> > might choose to defer gathering until it knows that it needs them= ;
> > whereas a device with a good source of power might prefer the lat= ency
> > benefits associated with early gathering. =C2=A0No point in us sp= ecifying
> > this.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > rtcweb mailing list
> > rtcweb@ietf.= org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> >
>
>

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb




--f46d04447e61f3272d04f9b01f4f-- From nobody Sun May 18 10:55:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8E011A027D for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:55:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.029 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.029 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6RNBB5ERaUHm for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-x22f.google.com (mail-ve0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22f]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 447151A01B1 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ve0-f175.google.com with SMTP id jw12so5440485veb.34 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:55:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=rpNh1VqoGDuKWnOwdirhSGMNAl8pvCy3Eq5YMMuHclc=; b=oCrxteOxHxoY+3kFB8HKRP4RGE1u1xYetVmmUUnh83Ek/GDlNiCNI++vSVRASij2sQ mMb8Nnbc8iDHjB7q/CbaKoP52FpZcJxM8M50wKto+F0UfwSQFvuMTEf6P6r6kSbNTVhI P6l91bc3DAT8b/vlaMj8bRTkhWQ62JyFIVj6CiBlWRs8QbLy6ufSE7ejZOzt7YpcNVhK nSfyJ4ZCCEJPSnBNQfV9OKwfcZzos9I1x0SrZ8h0l0lRolAQuxfNkI1X0rLNGI+Vl3ZS zz9Xyvo0TfVmUGV5+mfl32Y8RaWxN+1k+6r+f/cm2CVOz2dR1TTUSC9x7TtUmicHXbEn gHXw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=rpNh1VqoGDuKWnOwdirhSGMNAl8pvCy3Eq5YMMuHclc=; b=Lqro9I240nHNSHX8mipm4LDLvurLNaaik6Ee3zytxi4NUt98YDIyboCpv5M7BxM2xz lsL0+aFEW/8FD3qCsLSenISYegqE1OjFfCBxbzS3IziC5A4oZQpyMYs8JjwZWvmj441e 6dU5yRtScSrZ5jYdy4yEowrE9GvI9I/+x89Dy2yJZve+qWvcKFqblAXNeE/eK1DvzTTz pKaLOrWvWnugqlR+d2JnBlDml+DDdyTY9vvJ8uKaOB8hsSSvV1TQAr1YU2nghhgwew9D Z/WoFMUgTuveIHYw9X6tdxZcsxd0SdRxUeybJPn6GcpQYkztC9VrVuEFrBymQ7CY2UYe Cs3A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlJcZB0EqvApuN5OiE3JIWZgWIut1stfX0IGGEycDPzqD0fZtkWUPl4rpGCq7NaRRYiTV9k X-Received: by 10.52.241.98 with SMTP id wh2mr8334363vdc.37.1400435718914; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:55:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.145.105 with HTTP; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:54:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <8C8E3AB0-F3B6-4413-BD01-05D117FF598F@iii.ca> From: Justin Uberti Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 10:54:58 -0700 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1133b7308ea48504f9b059be Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/qyQpYE3f2aZW5nG_sbbuBUHelBA Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , "public-webrtc@w3.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Default candidate pool size X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 17:55:22 -0000 --001a1133b7308ea48504f9b059be Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 It should have absolutely no impact on which candidates are used, given that the ICE agent is cranking away on its own and any preferences expressed here (or even in onicecandidate) will suffer from races. IOW, we should ignore the candidate list supplied completely, unless we want to just ensure that we haven't been given garbage, in which case we can check for that and error out. On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 10:38 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Justin Uberti wrote: > >> That would be my preference as well. Due to timing, it shouldn't be an >> error to pass in a local desc that has *fewer* candidates than the ICE >> agent knows about, >> > > However, i would prefer it doesn't have any impact on which > candidates are used, since nothing makes you do setLocalDescription() > with any ICE candidates. If we need some way to refuse an ice candidate > (which I don't think we do) it should be in onicecandidate. > > -Ekr > > > > >> but you should never be able to pass in more. >> >> >> On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 10:05 AM, Justin Uberti wrote: >>> >>>> Sounds good to me. As to the default, I'm fine with leaving it >>>> unspecified. >>>> >>>> Regarding the email from Kiran: >>>> - onicecandidate never fires until after setLocalDescription is called, >>>> regardless of candidate pooling. Candidate pooling just causes any pooled >>>> candidates to be emitted immediately once setLocalDescription is called. >>>> - candidates specified in setLocalDescription are ignored. We could >>>> make it an error to pass in candidates that the browser hasn't given to >>>> you, but that doesn't seem super critical. >>>> >>> >>> This seems like it's coupled to the more general question of how >>> we behave when someone passes in stuff in SetLocal that doesn't >>> correspond to stuff we allow you to change in the SDP. My general >>> preference would be an error in all such cases, but I could be talked >>> out of that. >>> >>> -Ekr >>> >>> >>>> On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> how about just adding the pool size to RTCConfiguration ? >>>>> >>>>> On May 18, 2014, at 9:26 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > As far as I know, this has been agreed on, but the W3C spec has >>>>> > never been updated to reflect it. >>>>> > >>>>> > -Ekr >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 11:04 AM, Cullen Jennings >>>>> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > I think the JS app needs a way to say what it needs in the way of >>>>> pool size. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On May 12, 2014, at 12:15 PM, Martin Thomson < >>>>> martin.thomson@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > > On 11 May 2014 17:18, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> My personal opinion is that candidate pooling is useful here and >>>>> we >>>>> > >> should probably leave the default in the hands of the browser. I >>>>> > >> could live with 0 however. >>>>> > > >>>>> > > I tend to agree. The selection of a default seems like a good >>>>> > > opportunity for browsers to optimize. For instance, a mobile >>>>> device >>>>> > > might choose to defer gathering until it knows that it needs them; >>>>> > > whereas a device with a good source of power might prefer the >>>>> latency >>>>> > > benefits associated with early gathering. No point in us >>>>> specifying >>>>> > > this. >>>>> > > >>>>> > > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > > rtcweb mailing list >>>>> > > rtcweb@ietf.org >>>>> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>>>> > > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> rtcweb mailing list >>>>> rtcweb@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > --001a1133b7308ea48504f9b059be Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It should have absolutely no impact on which candidates ar= e used, given that the ICE agent is cranking away on its own and any prefer= ences expressed here (or even in onicecandidate) will suffer from races.
IOW, we should ignore the candidate list supplied completely= , unless we want to just ensure that we haven't been given garbage, in = which case we can check for that and error out.


On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 10:38 AM, Eric R= escorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:



On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Justin Uberti <= juberti@google.com> wrote:
That would be my preference= as well. Due to timing, it shouldn't be an error to pass in a local de= sc that has *fewer* candidates than the ICE agent knows about,

However, i would prefer it doesn'= ;t have any impact on which
candidates are used, since nothing ma= kes you do setLocalDescription()
with any ICE candidates. If we n= eed some way to refuse an ice candidate
(which I don't think we do) it should be in onicecandidate.
<= div>
-Ekr

=C2=A0
but you should never be able to pass in more.
<= div>


On Sun, May 1= 8, 2014 at 10:11 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:



On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 10:05 AM, Justin Uberti <juberti@goo= gle.com> wrote:
Sounds good to me. As to th= e default, I'm fine with leaving it unspecified.

Reg= arding the email from Kiran:
- onicecandidate never fires until after setLocalDescription is called= , regardless of candidate pooling. Candidate pooling just causes any pooled= candidates to be emitted immediately once setLocalDescription is called.
- candidates specified in setLocalDescription are ignored. We could ma= ke it an error to pass in candidates that the browser hasn't given to y= ou, but that doesn't seem super critical.

This seems like it's coupled to the more gene= ral question of how
we behave when someone passes in stuff in Set= Local that doesn't
correspond to stuff we allow you to change= in the SDP. My general
preference would be an error in all such cases, but I could be talked<= /div>
out of that.

-Ekr

On Sun,= May 18, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:=

how about just adding the pool size to RTCConfiguration ?

On May 18, 2014, at 9:26 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

> As far as I know, this has been agreed on, but the W3C spec has
> never been updated to reflect it.
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 11:04 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:
>
> I think the JS app needs a way to say what it needs in the way of pool= size.
>
>
> On May 12, 2014, at 12:15 PM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> w= rote:
>
> > On 11 May 2014 17:18, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> My personal opinion is that candidate pooling is useful here = and we
> >> should probably leave the default in the hands of the browser= . I
> >> could live with 0 however.
> >
> > I tend to agree. =C2=A0The selection of a default seems like a go= od
> > opportunity for browsers to optimize. =C2=A0For instance, a mobil= e device
> > might choose to defer gathering until it knows that it needs them= ;
> > whereas a device with a good source of power might prefer the lat= ency
> > benefits associated with early gathering. =C2=A0No point in us sp= ecifying
> > this.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > rtcweb mailing list
> > rtcweb@ietf.= org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> >
>
>

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb





--001a1133b7308ea48504f9b059be-- From nobody Sun May 18 17:12:03 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 263A81A021F for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 17:12:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oEN4qra0mV3f for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 17:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx12.unify.com (mx12.unify.com [62.134.46.10]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 564931A021D for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 17:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MCHP02HTC.global-ad.net (unknown [172.29.42.235]) by mx12.unify.com (Server) with ESMTP id 3B0AC23F0460; Mon, 19 May 2014 02:11:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net ([169.254.1.60]) by MCHP02HTC.global-ad.net ([172.29.42.235]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Mon, 19 May 2014 02:11:57 +0200 From: "Hutton, Andrew" To: Magnus Westerlund , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-14.txt Thread-Index: AQHPcPtboXhTXTBwKU+zGcTDoeUALptFD7ig Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 00:11:55 +0000 Message-ID: <9F33F40F6F2CD847824537F3C4E37DDF17D9A382@MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net> References: <20140516113400.20381.24325.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5375F8A4.7040901@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <5375F8A4.7040901@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.29.42.225] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/gFWNaDZyWhA7k3IRorhuq427VBE Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-14.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 00:12:00 -0000 Looking through the updates and it is looking good I have a couple of minor= comments. In sections 4.5 and 4.6 the text around the use of SDP has been cleaned up = but now both sections state a MUST requirement against signaling if SDP is = used. For example section 4.5 states "If SDP is used for signalling, this = negotiation MUST use the attributes defined in [RFC5761]". Whilst it makes= sense to implement it this way probably the RTP usage document should not = contain "MUST" level requirements on how signaling is implemented. Maybe this is really something for the API considerations as if SDP is used= at the API then we could say this is how it MUST be implemented. =20 Type on section 6 "However, they generally some add overhead" -> "However,t= hey generally add some overhead". Andy > -----Original Message----- > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Magnus > Westerlund > Sent: 16 May 2014 12:38 > To: rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-14.txt >=20 > WG >=20 > This version is intended to take care of the editorial comments we > received during the WG last call as well as any we authors directly > agreed with and have yet to see any disagreement with. >=20 > At the interim next week we will take the opportunity to go through all > the changes to normative requirements as well as discuss the open > issues. I will attempt to summarize these to the mailing list also, > although start of them already are present in the review emails. >=20 > Cheers >=20 > Magnus >=20 > On 2014-05-16 13:34, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > > This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in WEB- > browsers Working Group of the IETF. > > > > Title : Web Real-Time Communication (WebRTC): Media > Transport and Use of RTP > > Authors : Colin Perkins > > Magnus Westerlund > > Joerg Ott > > Filename : draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-14.txt > > Pages : 43 > > Date : 2014-05-16 > > > > Abstract: > > The Web Real-Time Communication (WebRTC) framework provides > support > > for direct interactive rich communication using audio, video, > text, > > collaboration, games, etc. between two peers' web-browsers. This > > memo describes the media transport aspects of the WebRTC > framework. > > It specifies how the Real-time Transport Protocol (RTP) is used in > > the WebRTC context, and gives requirements for which RTP features, > > profiles, and extensions need to be supported. > > > > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage/ > > > > There's also a htmlized version available at: > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-14 > > > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > > http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-14 > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > rtcweb mailing list > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > >=20 >=20 > -- >=20 > Magnus Westerlund >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From nobody Sun May 18 18:12:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 008CE1A023A for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 18:12:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id miWlgdiCUx7g for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 18:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx12.unify.com (mx12.unify.com [62.134.46.10]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4F371A0238 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 18:12:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MCHP01HTC.global-ad.net (unknown [172.29.42.234]) by mx12.unify.com (Server) with ESMTP id 6751323F041D; Mon, 19 May 2014 03:12:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net ([169.254.1.60]) by MCHP01HTC.global-ad.net ([172.29.42.234]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Mon, 19 May 2014 03:12:24 +0200 From: "Hutton, Andrew" To: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" , Karl Stahl Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Interim agenda and network provided TURN server, draft-patil-tram-turn-serv-disc-01.txt Thread-Index: AQHPcp3C+BH6BUpT3UGTUtpI7qVVfZtHFi1w Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 01:12:23 +0000 Message-ID: <9F33F40F6F2CD847824537F3C4E37DDF17D9A6F4@MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net> References: <20140502095509.21732.16127.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <043201cf7296$c9527940$5bf76bc0$@stahl@intertex.se> <043601cf7297$bd6ab970$38402c50$@stahl@intertex.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.29.42.225] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/BPgi6gPSpg5A1te1QaZLKL6Qevo Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Interim agenda and network provided TURN server, draft-patil-tram-turn-serv-disc-01.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 01:12:29 -0000 We have it documented as a requirement in draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-r= equirements which states: F20 The browser must support the use of STUN and TURN servers that are supplied by entities other than the web application (i.e. the network provider). The task of documenting the solution to this has been delegated to TRAM whi= ch has a milestone for this. Probably there should be a RTCWEB draft which references the solution to th= is when there is one and probably the best candidate for this is draft-ietf= -rtcweb-transports so maybe this should be listed as an open issue in -tran= sports-. Regards Andy > -----Original Message----- > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Cullen > Jennings (fluffy) > Sent: 18 May 2014 14:33 > To: Karl Stahl > Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Interim agenda and network provided TURN server, > draft-patil-tram-turn-serv-disc-01.txt >=20 >=20 > On May 18, 2014, at 8:50 AM, Karl Stahl wrote: >=20 > > Is the usage of auto discovered TURN servers by the WebRTC browser > > written into any rtcweb draft or is that to be done? >=20 > I don't think so. There has been some discussion of if a pac file type > approach could be used much like how the HTTP proxy is discovered. > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From nobody Sun May 18 19:13:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23AF81A0259 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 19:13:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HPhqHiF-x958 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 19:13:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x22a.google.com (mail-we0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::22a]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 860E51A0256 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 19:13:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f170.google.com with SMTP id u57so4902090wes.29 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 19:13:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=7aNTkOIL5MNHnj62ZB75/xqRRe2GyFUSAA9rOknmm40=; b=0LWXTiDBJZaPYx+pBLvTT03n44tTZiS14NK3kVO0JJW0YDA8xOdbAyVvbTcgYJ4OFJ lHkmfyk/olYdJmbNJ90ZgPnuMGipGEt3XJBFiTU9hJREkQQqWGOLiWEZa20sQJiSjriT /bLSAEWrB0HMWtL7XhhHyc+y0tg3XH4ZhsjXGPj20IqSlBjEHT5AmOvbKNAdMiOvSxKO KnerEsuEJGwPatU9OJlIG42UESPqMAFLEzMwB8nTPLqgEgkaPm7iCftJUOhdeGidjRhf 07KF7SD/JuSoTjbvJP0lAYQ4SfZ0GAX5N2DBZf4WLc95YEocGmfmTWWoM8zUMBNhVwfk +oXA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.77.165 with SMTP id t5mr10284132wiw.38.1400465602951; Sun, 18 May 2014 19:13:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.235.163 with HTTP; Sun, 18 May 2014 19:13:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <8C8E3AB0-F3B6-4413-BD01-05D117FF598F@iii.ca> Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 19:13:22 -0700 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Justin Uberti Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/aHYFzYbk8-Yph6aLdqWHmgkgblU Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , "public-webrtc@w3.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Default candidate pool size X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 02:13:26 -0000 On 18 May 2014 10:54, Justin Uberti wrote: > IOW, we should ignore the candidate list supplied completely, unless we want > to just ensure that we haven't been given garbage, in which case we can > check for that and error out. I think that's a fine idea; all options. Pick one. From nobody Sun May 18 19:18:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A58E1A0259 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 19:18:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id alnsy-0uglEv for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 19:18:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x22a.google.com (mail-ig0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22a]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DFE121A0227 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 19:18:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-f170.google.com with SMTP id uy17so1860700igb.1 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 19:18:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=wC6PCc9v9CfQtnaJAuzetEzRH5Go567D5PttHxnGWto=; b=HnRHaHuHuEsttUTyi2qa0wEHMUbL1xJ+KMc3/JWuZS/8wqgA6UViY3pYWADB379aBO AIGreJHDS78k0tro4Q1Q7NKxpfSSUV4aOeEdGyDe7Ioz/J2Z83q8s1olVDZsYmRBacpW n2pbOYVBISr8AfcmDRda4EzgjXvyzxM4TKAdxK3ALCSxwKqFHscUC9AHm1I3xcdkiqt3 7KayUp1EBnTQasM2ohkNXX87Zrm6Te6v4l2yai03UnqR2hUPhsemcH37S6WKuhouJ2kI 92d1zlr2bFTIvTDtx6mHMPT+u7JTUfs+CMnPlNaxul38x0vEItRyJ9EOXd2TvPL8x3cI 5KaQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.42.251.78 with SMTP id mr14mr29965158icb.47.1400465881643; Sun, 18 May 2014 19:18:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.200.204 with HTTP; Sun, 18 May 2014 19:18:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 19:18:01 -0700 Message-ID: From: Ted Hardie To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae934128565414d04f9b75f3e Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/k99XgJRHJzPoQlfQuKPZcKIuWrE Subject: [rtcweb] Reminder for Jabber chat room at interim X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 02:18:24 -0000 --14dae934128565414d04f9b75f3e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Just as a reminder, we will use rtcweb@jabber.ietf.org during the interim meeting for coordination and it is a fallback back channel in case of issues with the onsite remote participation. regards, Ted --14dae934128565414d04f9b75f3e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just as a reminder, we will use rtcweb@jabber.ietf.org during the interim meeting for coordinatio= n and it is a fallback back channel in case of issues with the onsite remot= e participation.

regards,

Ted
--14dae934128565414d04f9b75f3e-- From nobody Sun May 18 19:32:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 311771A0227 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 19:32:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c_6riPeSOpmw for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 19:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x22f.google.com (mail-wg0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::22f]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CC211A0266 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 19:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f47.google.com with SMTP id x12so7098888wgg.18 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 19:32:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5Q7o/894roXyv5aamSgZhY0EttbG3h9C2sO73xkHvFM=; b=XmNfLFmI5cYfyxqAy02mVDXCt+2G2QmoDcP+vo0PPNKGAN4d7QiHDkSnTeCqjAU9Rb SJB6NVlOJjDHFN2unj5WiV7SIvAJ4OI4MyFP/X47dmRl5RuYbOhWHSa2M3DjcceulluZ IMhC8VAlyDwEOMrCFb+z8ig2z0/x/0iHDDMgz9kqqPFiT/6+qeogTL+eVJsbyjreEdTd ub5SZ2jLWylSkbhojURhv4k6zI6OsNTfckInHoaYvQyRLbRWcWz2kPZgH3muclrr6+Hx L7YGYlp63m79r4nL71f5nm0aNRdYOSLw2HrP1AUZVhyksEYJ23nhbRMvzStZDRSVk0m5 tTjQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.36.35 with SMTP id n3mr10207004wij.23.1400466733337; Sun, 18 May 2014 19:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.235.163 with HTTP; Sun, 18 May 2014 19:32:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20140502095509.21732.16127.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 19:32:13 -0700 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/bB88mosfgw-itZ0yR2gh6uLkepo Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Interim agenda and network provided TURN server, draft-patil-tram-turn-serv-disc-01.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 02:32:23 -0000 On 18 May 2014 06:33, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote: >> Is the usage of auto discovered TURN servers by the WebRTC browser >> written into any rtcweb draft or is that to be done? > > I don=E2=80=99t think so. There has been some discussion of if a pac file= type approach could be used much like how the HTTP proxy is discovered. Firefox has a pref for a STUN server. That is used if you don't supply any STUN or TURN servers of your own. Users can add their own TURN server here. The idea of autodiscovery is interesting, but it's still early days. From nobody Sun May 18 19:47:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 368AE1A024D for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 19:47:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MzGels4UcykL for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 19:47:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22d.google.com (mail-wi0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22d]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3309D1A0248 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 19:47:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f173.google.com with SMTP id bs8so3384314wib.12 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 19:47:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pDpwL3+cRnbiG72gIILBKiij12vi/rvn1tAs1J+iuWQ=; b=ZbB46LCfkBfMUargpmPm5jXd5642SLiMez0pfcfwmF+kSAJ+OZQYJHmXexhIx4947O ZR8SbYpQwwa7msz/ks6ttsX6NTkAZTEug/TfNg00mJCKeNlZl3065bDN74sdX8wjYr5/ 8AxzQTer4wY+2dGlFgDiMvd1GXZu76UbvU+daUq9oF7mvJuB5Uu5dgl6AjKwVLIgMF7I +7wKNB/Cm0nyaEbJqLORFM/EIibRMERisHKgRrD5nzlYTDveELcfH2gqhJAD58iyJ7Bw GyRh0yJnZdCBMkNjPEn38uBYLpKyYCywCIq0Fg292F5OjiiJu4YGTbL90Z4PjOYhX3ru IzUw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.13.162 with SMTP id i2mr10308053wic.44.1400467674108; Sun, 18 May 2014 19:47:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.235.163 with HTTP; Sun, 18 May 2014 19:47:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 19:47:54 -0700 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Cullen Jennings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/AO4qllsBwfy0qe1QeGQLJgZnGD8 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 02:47:57 -0000 It took me ages to work this out, but the starting time is 08:30 EDT. The only place any times are mentioned is the Doodle signup page. On 8 May 2014 08:32, Cullen Jennings wrote: > > Below is a the current agenda for the upcoming RTCWEB Interim (essentiall= y, we have the morning sessions for the three days May 19, May 20, May 21 2= 014). If you have not filled in your participation in the doodle poll, ple= ase do so at: http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn. That helps us plan space = and food as well as have badges ready. > > Thanks > > Ted, Sean, Cullen > > > Interim Meeting RTCWEB May 2014 > http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn > > Day 1 > > Admin Trivia (15m) - Chairs > > RTP + Media (75m) Magnus Westerlund and Harald Alvestrand > draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-05 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-03 > > JSEP (2.5h) Eric Rescorla > draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06 > > > Day 2 > > Data Channel (4h) Randell Jesup > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-08 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-04 > > > Day 3 > > Security ( 2h ) Eric Rescorla > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09 > > ALPN ( 15m ) Martin Thomson > draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn-00 > > Consent Freshness ( 30m) Martin Thomson > > draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02 > > > Matters arising from webrtc meetings ( remaining time) > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From nobody Sun May 18 20:02:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 592DD1A0266 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 20:02:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.567 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.567 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OORoZWWBCep1 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 20:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gateway12.websitewelcome.com (gateway12.websitewelcome.com [69.93.157.3]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50E111A0265 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 20:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gateway12.websitewelcome.com (Postfix, from userid 5007) id 5DEA51A97E442; Sun, 18 May 2014 22:01:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gator3286.hostgator.com (gator3286.hostgator.com [198.57.247.250]) by gateway12.websitewelcome.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ECDF1A97E2E5 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 22:01:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [96.231.225.192] (port=52832 helo=[192.168.1.4]) by gator3286.hostgator.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WmDpu-00050a-63; Sun, 18 May 2014 22:01:58 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Sean Turner In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 23:01:54 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0C75EB60-C8FD-4910-A483-3E2DF4272C61@ieca.com> References: To: Martin Thomson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - gator3286.hostgator.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - ieca.com X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 96.231.225.192 X-Exim-ID: 1WmDpu-00050a-63 X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([192.168.1.4]) [96.231.225.192]:52832 X-Source-Auth: sean.turner@ieca.com X-Email-Count: 1 X-Source-Cap: ZG9tbWdyNDg7ZG9tbWdyNDg7Z2F0b3IzMjg2Lmhvc3RnYXRvci5jb20= Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/sJF4Zh6BXOMQ_2becNyngFeF4jw Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Agenda for RTCWeb Interim May 19-20, 2014 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 03:02:00 -0000 To confirm that=92s when we=92re on tap to start: 830 EDT. spt On May 18, 2014, at 22:47, Martin Thomson = wrote: > It took me ages to work this out, but the starting time is 08:30 EDT. > The only place any times are mentioned is the Doodle signup page. >=20 > On 8 May 2014 08:32, Cullen Jennings wrote: >>=20 >> Below is a the current agenda for the upcoming RTCWEB Interim = (essentially, we have the morning sessions for the three days May 19, = May 20, May 21 2014). If you have not filled in your participation in = the doodle poll, please do so at: http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn. = That helps us plan space and food as well as have badges ready. >>=20 >> Thanks >>=20 >> Ted, Sean, Cullen >>=20 >>=20 >> Interim Meeting RTCWEB May 2014 >> http://doodle.com/qewq4xvszbc6d4sn >>=20 >> Day 1 >>=20 >> Admin Trivia (15m) - Chairs >>=20 >> RTP + Media (75m) Magnus Westerlund and Harald Alvestrand >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-13 >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-05 >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-03 >>=20 >> JSEP (2.5h) Eric Rescorla >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06 >>=20 >>=20 >> Day 2 >>=20 >> Data Channel (4h) Randell Jesup >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-08 >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-protocol-04 >>=20 >>=20 >> Day 3 >>=20 >> Security ( 2h ) Eric Rescorla >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-06 >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-09 >>=20 >> ALPN ( 15m ) Martin Thomson >> draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn-00 >>=20 >> Consent Freshness ( 30m) Martin Thomson >>=20 >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-02 >>=20 >>=20 >> Matters arising from webrtc meetings ( remaining time) >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From nobody Sun May 18 20:38:09 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1F181A027A for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 20:38:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.028 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.028 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=unavailable Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ymYnTwl6r_7g for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 20:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-x230.google.com (mail-ve0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c01::230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A08C1A0271 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 20:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ve0-f176.google.com with SMTP id jz11so5722399veb.7 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 20:38:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=dkzV6EV0rsj4a1dOWvvFGfUGwl/QFrc8Ge8YQ+Am3UY=; b=kmzAqmEZB79XYFVZleOJyLo4eK2Fd2Ubv3DAH5Yuasyi4Yb1WtxhbSkwNqwCwkDx+W zbQGEYShb6l0V1il5MI8MboeVnlnENj1LLlv1rn5u81QEQiPGMS2yqaLmM8yxEAuEDL3 2JSYVFOyv63TVDzwcNQ1MSK9iceHqSYhBsgZnCoMN1ivkqyYwQo/+LbLEwN6OJ9DBnbs Kcgw2qBoYYrNeN4XgXg68B3gDeFGGiTCoWm66dODIsuRVYjNTJLyUR4zPEMAFCS37jeF a1xtrRkUg75dkckRzkaT5waCTJ+9HczW70RZpXbfpjNDofLP02jRpIfS/QLtuE/bj99i OPyQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=dkzV6EV0rsj4a1dOWvvFGfUGwl/QFrc8Ge8YQ+Am3UY=; b=AG/9KZ4DQKnj7BCNt+K1puVTiTqK3O/5EgAOFm2wVkfAso+R1S61KYxZtfmEoU7uPK Tioqr80k4a6mbK5JNyWRn9ratT3f4RFsjY1MeNrfRGEhPWydqtpXiFtlcA5cDFLPaXR1 0v8OcveRYjQqNzVsG0Cgeji9lFO3Wcb4OB1iqRVKQTXtoQPu05l2hJTJL+iYBrgyRdN2 ugvt93BlmLwSyURzTl4+0KVNWJG/GzRDQvB1zSKYEOjjEiokfGGTYY7Em/WBKOQ9WIHs WoEQO1JYkyCZqwDMDRJFyAnOUZn8DkKa7kpWSOytRrnOApSJ5t71cgKWJN7VM/5EvbCu wtTw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnVlA0qqk28w90e0JpA2YoOwq1TWchT+1fTZL3XHx5vzVIpzk42Mo14FJxMQP5ysoemi0Bx X-Received: by 10.220.163.3 with SMTP id y3mr12031652vcx.7.1400470684864; Sun, 18 May 2014 20:38:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.145.105 with HTTP; Sun, 18 May 2014 20:37:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D2F672A@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> From: Justin Uberti Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 20:37:44 -0700 Message-ID: To: Martin Thomson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1133da66b0b0b004f9b87d20 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/gmxwLLDfDbWqAzw28b4vaG8zAXU Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , mmusic WG Subject: Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] m-line recycling X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 03:38:08 -0000 --001a1133da66b0b0b004f9b87d20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One option could be to only reuse m=3D lines that both sides have stopped using (i.e. port=3D0, as opposed to a=3Dsendonly/recvonly). This provides m= ost of the benefits of recycling without having to deal with the notion of 'compatible'. On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 7:43 AM, Martin Thomson w= rote: > Yes, some words about being compatible and all that entails are required > if we intend to stipulate it being reused. Either that or we can say MAY. > The need for a strong definition diminishes then. > On May 11, 2014 11:54 PM, "Christer Holmberg" < > christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> >> >> I don=E2=80=99t think it should be a MUST =E2=80=93 at least not only ba= sed on the media >> type. Because, there may be other properties than the media type associa= ted >> with the =E2=80=9Cm=3D=E2=80=9D line, why one does not want to use it fo= r the specific MST. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> Christer >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* mmusic [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Eric >> Rescorla >> *Sent:* 12. toukokuuta 2014 7:50 >> *To:* mmusic WG; rtcweb@ietf.org >> *Subject:* [MMUSIC] m-line recycling >> >> >> >> The JSEP spec specifies m-line recycling: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> o If any MediaStreamTracks have been added, and there exist m=3D >> >> sections of the appropriate media type with no associated >> >> MediaStreamTracks (i.e. as described in the preceding paragraph), >> >> those m=3D sections MUST be recycled by adding the new >> >> MediaStreamTrack to the m=3D section. This is done by adding the >> >> necessary "a=3Dmsid", "a=3Dssrc", and "a=3Dssrc-group" lines to th= e >> >> recycled m=3D section, and removing the "a=3Drecvonly" attribute. >> >> Based on the minutes from IETF 89, we were going to take this to mmusic. >> >> http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-89-rtcweb?useMonospaceF= ont=3Dtrue >> >> >> >> >> Thoughts? >> >> -Ekr >> >> >> >> https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/21 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> >> > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > > --001a1133da66b0b0b004f9b87d20 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
One option could be to only reuse m=3D lines that both sid= es have stopped using (i.e. port=3D0, as opposed to a=3Dsendonly/recvonly).= This provides most of the benefits of recycling without having to deal wit= h the notion of 'compatible'.


On Mon, May 1= 2, 2014 at 7:43 AM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>= ; wrote:

Yes, some words about being c= ompatible and all that entails are required if we intend to stipulate it be= ing reused. Either that or we can say MAY. The need for a strong definition= diminishes then.

On May 11, 2014 11:54 PM,= "Christer Holmberg" <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi,<= /p>

=C2=A0

I don=E2=80=99t think it = should be a MUST =E2=80=93 at least not only based on the media type. Becau= se, there may be other properties than the media type associated with the =E2=80=9Cm=3D=E2=80=9D line, why one does not want to use it for the speci= fic MST.

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: mmusic [= mailto:mmusic-= bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rescorla
Sent: 12. toukokuuta 2014 7:50
To: mmusic WG; = rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: [MMUSIC] m-line recycling

=C2=A0

The JSEP spec specifies m-line recycling:=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0
=C2=A0
 o=C2=A0 If any MediaStreamTracks have been added, and there exi=
st m=3D
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 sections of the appropriate media=
 type with no associated
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 MediaStreamTracks (i.e. as descri=
bed in the preceding paragraph),
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 those m=3D sections MUST be recyc=
led by adding the new
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 MediaStreamTrack to the m=3D sect=
ion.=C2=A0 This is done by adding the
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 necessary "a=3Dmsid", &=
quot;a=3Dssrc", and "a=3Dssrc-group" lines to the<=
/u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 recycled m=3D section, and removi=
ng the "a=3Drecvonly" attribute.
Based=C2=A0o=
n the minutes from IETF 89, we were going to take this to mmusic.=

http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf=
-89-rtcweb?useMonospaceFont=3Dtrue




=C2=A0
Thoughts?<=
u>
-Ekr

=C2=A0


_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


_______________________________________________
mmusic mailing list
mmusic@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic


--001a1133da66b0b0b004f9b87d20-- From nobody Sun May 18 20:57:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE8BA1A02B8 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 20:57:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.029 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.029 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qj7ih2YBw2ew for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 20:57:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-x22d.google.com (mail-ve0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22d]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB40D1A0295 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 20:57:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ve0-f173.google.com with SMTP id pa12so5877043veb.32 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 20:57:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=rIKA6oSn9LD+XNEoU0xPGur9Hi7gxBkqR04BBjy8STc=; b=JyPHy5DyWAJHweaHlAYACMnbrUCnHJg7B4krKdz0DtfTRcW5XP8L8ID0z0tD+Bj+bu 308MQsY/Eln/rNOrFRYeWLY4KAbBOG30eySL38B0+Q8efB36hWZDXRz5ISqhCptL/PYN ovwJOxsQAyFel3YljMU+mMwoA0dN+FAX718hkJfGtpd/LSa/v6uKUOO8+1AtNU+/ppx4 KfIBS+YzlKrdiOXFDCLwmzRcC0OaIUt4gxReYCqnM5VrQ62MaKeWsuOsq6UY2xPCKsia rvrg409Nr3dZqNO2lDLhlCieqrUYlaQctBxpEURJw8zi6VdzJojJ2Z+xim7mQIUeZYZT CXTA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=rIKA6oSn9LD+XNEoU0xPGur9Hi7gxBkqR04BBjy8STc=; b=jyitd+c8GOx/y7APYJfC/kvtxtIsYeNf6TbFJlx88WbQv2Xz4w/YK/4Zqjtj8ixlBh GDKuOgKqBYA4XQJGZVCCiIg3wxfLGzN97kfpEOmYQxm0yOrZoIo0Jn087nrkeAhbXiRs FuWxRPPB/5z4kbdIl4TjLtPLAN2tJLnKCqVmDsKa/GNdrXjwsp3NjUoCcN/pdHtOETk2 HshMNcl0zIetKYkbv40KzfR+Vcbnojo1MwgVLMTDnLjDSa2USpy0/PFUhBDCaY1JGPAz vCJ5WaQtX4JcUaP/EZ3+AJHEsDI6Kpf7agBbKzmn5jkjoMh+fOM/fvkZLedN89Ufqzub 4MRg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkDnP/NCGHtOp7R4YWnkcPhO5bcjHH43sb1A1aJBVfaI6MwxfcVz/QVsYVVCL1+bf+74MI5 X-Received: by 10.58.161.101 with SMTP id xr5mr4169907veb.36.1400471835159; Sun, 18 May 2014 20:57:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.145.105 with HTTP; Sun, 18 May 2014 20:56:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D31BEC1@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7F15A160-ED6E-4B77-833F-D83AD6DD7483@iii.ca> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D31BEC1@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> From: Justin Uberti Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 20:56:55 -0700 Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b5d5b0a40ca0e04f9b8c295 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/6oJ7NOKrXxgW8NZkLaxbmwHjnBw Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Unique credentials for non-bundled m-lines X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 03:57:17 -0000 --047d7b5d5b0a40ca0e04f9b8c295 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I think this dated back to when BUNDLE used the same ports from the beginning, and this was needed for demultiplexing or somesuch. As it stands now, the main value here is that a unique ufrag+pwd provides a nice lookup handle to identify an ICE session, which might be useful for stats. On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 2:56 AM, Christer Holmberg < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi, > > >> https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/17 > >> > >> JSEP S 5.2.1 reads: > >> > >> Each m= section, provided it is not being bundled into another m= > >> section, MUST generate a unique set of ICE credentials and gather its > >> own unique set of ICE candidates. Otherwise, it MUST use the same ICE > >> credentials and candidates that were used in the m= section that it is > >> being bundled into. > >> > >> But Section 15.4 of ICE explicitly permits m-lines to share > >> credentials, and of course ICE knows nothing of BUNDLE: > >> > >> The "ice-pwd" and "ice-ufrag" attributes can appear at either the > >> session-level or media-level. When present in both, the value in the > >> media-level takes precedence. Thus, the value at the session-level is > >> effectively a default that applies to all media streams, unless > >> overridden by a media-level value. Whether present at the session or > >> media-level, there MUST be an ice-pwd and ice-ufrag attribute for each > >> media stream. If two media streams have identical ice-ufrag's, they > >> MUST have identical ice-pwd's. > >> > >> Is there a reason for requiring unique credentials? If not I suggest > >> we remove this requirement. > > > > When not doing bundle, is there any problems in the consent security > with shared credential? If > > not, seems like we should remove this. > > I guess that would mean that different BUNDLE groups could share the same > credentials also? > > Regards, > > Christer > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --047d7b5d5b0a40ca0e04f9b8c295 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think this dated back to when BUNDLE used the same ports= from the beginning, and this was needed for demultiplexing or somesuch.=C2= =A0

As it stands now, the main value here is that a uniq= ue ufrag+pwd provides a nice lookup handle to identify an ICE session, whic= h might be useful for stats.





On Sun, May 18, 2014 at= 2:56 AM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:
Hi,

>> https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/17
>>
>> JSEP S 5.2.1 reads:
>>
>> Each m=3D section, provided it is not being bundled into another m= =3D
>> section, MUST generate a unique set of ICE credentials and gather = its
>> own unique set of ICE candidates. Otherwise, it MUST use the same = ICE
>> credentials and candidates that were used in the m=3D section that= it is
>> being bundled into.
>>
>> But Section 15.4 of ICE explicitly permits m-lines to share
>> credentials, and of course ICE knows nothing of BUNDLE:
>>
>> The "ice-pwd" and "ice-ufrag" attributes can a= ppear at either the
>> session-level or media-level. When present in both, the value in t= he
>> media-level takes precedence. Thus, the value at the session-level= is
>> effectively a default that applies to all media streams, unless >> overridden by a media-level value. Whether present at the session = or
>> media-level, there MUST be an ice-pwd and ice-ufrag attribute for = each
>> media stream. If two media streams have identical ice-ufrag's,= they
>> MUST have identical ice-pwd's.
>>
>> Is there a reason for requiring unique credentials? If not I sugge= st
>> we remove this requirement.
>
> When not doing bundle, is there any problems in the consent security w= ith shared credential? If
> not, seems like we should remove this.

I guess that would mean that different BUNDLE groups could share the = same credentials also?

Regards,

Christer

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

--047d7b5d5b0a40ca0e04f9b8c295-- From nobody Sun May 18 21:03:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0E6C1A028F for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 21:02:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.029 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.029 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UxPK56GJDsUX for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 21:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-x231.google.com (mail-ve0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c01::231]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8ABF1A0008 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 21:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ve0-f177.google.com with SMTP id db11so5787475veb.22 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 21:02:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=S8sXx/VXpPv3wWvXKu4eP+fqjaCAOY7CnnR9xFezL0Y=; b=OQtkdxQMs2WyiTZ3HG/Isbq77CYV6f4jkUYA5M8KhAP5Tr2xbO8vedijSCGgT10msu rj9gMajb7CkN0QliZ854pcLO7JJQ9+Yc4nhKMPrV/3IJYktCF4+0zvUlevQH00PfxKA1 UgtlB0/JqSn1a/7hduxTZgRsx0L7FavA9SgFLDBXoNJWu99U2WFCoDYPWYV1tDXpdl+h wqbKGOVNEBaj1Xo6zctW70/ctEKwYTFC8ebSCxGBcZCBT8I1GupDO4eKqltIXX4apmp1 83nYTsyQMIDrS9J9vMpQPmMmfgyc1Xdma8+YVTfjeQm6SeSPcSEmB5au6vWQ6gjPYjbh Vh7w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=S8sXx/VXpPv3wWvXKu4eP+fqjaCAOY7CnnR9xFezL0Y=; b=AQUyE6xEX5Q7opUdfvqsnJpmc+3cCpq8g5e1DdduXMRx8PvCD4BwkV6DIFxCrvLhrJ 5cYwmG/iUM8tci1QN8woPjeQMdXzMognKuWn0Tf281eD40D/5dsoTjYqJexxO0T96GXG qCqo8IlQczuHJjfRnIURMeAD7rrJuQBb/wuI8cXq/veuaI6D1NGrk4g2JQoP9B7B2d9Q KgENhOz0FTYpsO7xA7USWItS4spAF1Ny5JBNghjWLi3p1lnjxh+MpzDjaDUe6z3Bb2jV hh4a03QVkEtZJtbpu1eqyzBydLceQjF55aoLLIDR0g7QslxdrrPq1kfpp0PiJCLgNQy7 Wzjw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQm/NAq/BgHiDVLX5Wa83tToRqkNkmfRaasa8/N18fkmgggM+r6aGU920lHYniO5+XDR2RQ2 X-Received: by 10.220.94.146 with SMTP id z18mr3286942vcm.40.1400472177306; Sun, 18 May 2014 21:02:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.145.105 with HTTP; Sun, 18 May 2014 21:02:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D31D4A5@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D31BED8@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D31D4A5@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> From: Justin Uberti Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 21:02:37 -0700 Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c1e9d0a5814104f9b8d636 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/hYmGqIH-V2snZyHZA2-Ww2MBNi0 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] (no subject) X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 04:02:59 -0000 --001a11c1e9d0a5814104f9b8d636 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think there is a readability benefit to have all the stuff spelled out at media-level. I don't see what we gain by moving things to session level; the byte savings are not significant enough to be worth optimizing for. However, if there is a clear interoperability advantage for one or the other, let's just SHOULD that. On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 7:15 AM, Christer Holmberg < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi, > > > I don't think we need to say anything. Because, if I receive session-leve= l > attributes on the wire, I should not have to move them around in my JS ap= p > before passing the SDP to JSEP. And vice verse. > > > > This section is instructions to the browser author. > > > > Correct. My mistake. > > > > Then, assuming we want to say something, is there a reason why we can=E2= =80=99t > use MUST (whatever MUST of course needs to be decided :)? It will life > easier for JS apps that, for whatever reason, need to process the SDP > generated for the browser. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > Also keep in mind that the session vs media does not only affect SDP > attributes - you have the same issue for the c=3D line. > > Regards, > > Christer > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Cullen Jenning= s > Sent: 17 May 2014 21:28 > To: Eric Rescorla > Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] (no subject) > > as a purely pragmatic issue, some device seem to have SDP bugs that > cause them to ignore some attributes at the session level. I don't really > care what we do on this as mostly I think theses devices should fix their > bugs but when people talk abut SDP interop issues, this is occasionally a= n > issue that comes up. > > So I agree we need to have a SHOULD on saying where things go that could > be at either a session level or a m=3D level. Session level makes more se= nse > from a standards point of view but m=3D level might have slightly better > interoperability. > > I don't care which we choose - perhaps some of the people that considerer= s > themselves and experts on why SDP has interop problems could chime in on > how important this is. > > > > On May 11, 2014, at 11:52 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/19 > > > > JSEP S 5.2.1 reads: > > > > Attributes that are common between all m=3D sections MAY be moved to > > session-level, if explicitly defined to be valid at session-level. > > > > We should probably encourage this. I propose we make this a SHOULD > > rather than a MAY. > > > > -Ekr > > > > _______________________________________________ > > rtcweb mailing list > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > --001a11c1e9d0a5814104f9b8d636 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think there is a readability benefit to have all the stu= ff spelled out at media-level. I don't see what we gain by moving thing= s to session level; the byte savings are not significant enough to be worth= optimizing for.

However, if there is a clear interoperability advantage for = one or the other, let's just SHOULD that.


On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 7:15 AM, Chri= ster Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> = wrote:

Hi,<= /p>


I don't think we need to say anything. Because, if I receive session-le= vel attributes on the wire, I should not have to move them around in my JS = app before passing the SDP to JSEP. And vice verse.

=C2=A0

This section is instructions to the browser author.<= u>

=C2=A0

Correct. My mistake.

=C2=A0

Then, assuming we want to= say something, is there a reason why we can=E2=80=99t use MUST (whatever M= UST of course needs to be decided :)? It will life easier for JS apps that, for whatever reason, need to process the SDP generated for the = browser.

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

-Ekr

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Also keep in mind that the session vs media does not= only affect SDP attributes - you have the same issue for the c=3D line.
Regards,

Christer


-----Original Message-----
From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Cullen Jennings
Sent: 17 May 2014 21:28
To: Eric Rescorla
Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] (no subject)

as a purely pragmatic issue, some device seem to hav= e SDP bugs that cause them to ignore some attributes at the session level. = I don't really care what we do on this as mostly I think theses devices= should fix their bugs but when people talk abut SDP interop issues, this is occasionally an issue that comes up.=

So I agree we need to have a SHOULD on saying where things go that could be= at either a session level or a m=3D level. Session level makes more sense = from a standards point of view but m=3D level might have slightly better in= teroperability.

I don't care which we choose - perhaps some of the people that consider= ers themselves and experts on why SDP has interop problems could chime in o= n how important this is.



On May 11, 2014, at 11:52 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

> https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/19
>
> JSEP S 5.2.1 reads:
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Attributes that are common between all m=3D sections MAY = be moved to
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0session-level, if explicitly defined to be valid at sessi= on-level.
>
> We should probably encourage this. I propose we make this a SHOULD
> rather than a MAY.
>
> -Ekr
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

=C2=A0


_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


--001a11c1e9d0a5814104f9b8d636-- From nobody Sun May 18 21:14:28 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D56C71A0016 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 21:14:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.029 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.029 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n82ZMtNs0zE9 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 21:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x229.google.com (mail-vc0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c03::229]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE9631A0008 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 21:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f169.google.com with SMTP id ij19so9074362vcb.0 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 21:14:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=1TfkVNhin6YWZvcPT5RV4QrSVVN7t8e/25p+LvFA08I=; b=gRHDR9NM60zDIXeLpcErKgqEKaCqAWymfkDmu1spqmcA9tJn/IvD3ZV2NLpJjnxw41 Titu5jEmDYM+m8PhCDAYnFQCZeUqJMhncut88rR2sXahkOR6XANGhf33XaawRAYBxZGx FesOim81F9JqH3bWsCbIG67yqo4ma6jDhuvkRhCE8X0d0GsTMoUwzeFeLEvHrkOZaU9+ 1H9kKCQ0CbGl5mFhNrtOmjWQJLTWNoQc777EpIOk2dH8atFCMW8AyZW8LH0kpVYxJd/G meuZp56ThSwVs8XlWXzpkJWuIKeolvGhYPUnNQhEXQ5212xqm2OCjwvAwvQq4GWO9fVy szWQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=1TfkVNhin6YWZvcPT5RV4QrSVVN7t8e/25p+LvFA08I=; b=Am+Fq4Y65gXgxon0fXGnY4rVAZqurXZfDX5VVKryfYAbaR/1gqWG0A8JOwDsEB2SaD iQWvKITLBlRN1/jWqQqNFJSlsjc+JQdJGT9e4GnUsS5OOOPmAbpAxwkV8Iu8LJys1rVH KcinjCFpXrOqfz/e6kGvt9h8HHrjh5mA1VdJUrPEdoBdv55GDNfMNmRo4rsu7xsqWIKO BNo3CWa0WFypGAnUY80+08CaEUJoIpbeOtM3OVR0iNSi1sqIWxGUM6SvzX5wwZ/siDq9 gO6mV1o6UdedENGM41Nyl3EHB3evF2GU7EOHF2OCcn8mhfR33Coo05t4UlWohHJPkYCT 5shQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkodPgOhiW0xyOV9VS3XS3G/nNkzwtWZEuO9hP8Qb7TV4uRw3kKIG0nuuWwBagzWxEUoYlN X-Received: by 10.52.13.41 with SMTP id e9mr10350912vdc.21.1400472863086; Sun, 18 May 2014 21:14:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.145.105 with HTTP; Sun, 18 May 2014 21:14:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <804DCB7A-9D65-4438-82C7-1A553905984B@iii.ca> From: Justin Uberti Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 21:14:03 -0700 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf302efaf685ba6404f9b8ff03 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/ot-qjUY7BqK3dsZz7UF6MwsmR3s Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 04:14:26 -0000 --20cf302efaf685ba6404f9b8ff03 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Agree with Martin's analysis. Regarding what we should do after a new setLocalDescription, the implementation does need to change the value of iceGatheringState if new gathering is going to occur. As pointed out, since we don't have a callback for iceGatheringState, firing onicecandidate(null) if no gathering needs to happen seems reasonable, if inelegant. But the reason for not having an iceGatheringState callback was because we felt that it was redundant with onicecandidate. That now seems debatable, and I'd rather add that callback than pound onicecandidate until it looks like said callback. On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 5:28 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > >> >> On May 11, 2014, at 6:51 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >> > However, we agreed in London that we would do "always trickle", and >> > that even if there were candidates available at the time when >> CreateOffer >> > (because of candidate pooling) was called, they would not be included >> > in the initial offer. >> >> Hmm - did we agree they would not be there or they might not be there? >> > > My memory is that Justin argued that it would be more consistent to > not have them and I agreed to check to see if that was a big deal > for Firefox. It's not. > > > >> Either way, I think that things will work better if we can provide >> whatever information we have available at the time the call returns. So= my >> preference would be that if they are in the pool, they are returned as >> early as possible. > > > We're talking about having the onicecandidate callbacks called immediatel= y > on setLocal(), so this should't have much latency impact. > > > > > >> I can not really see any good reasons for delaying the return of the >> candidates that are available. Even when you are doing trickily ICE, th= is >> is going to result in less round trips of =E2=80=9Ctrickle=E2=80=9D and = result in closer >> synchronization of the connectivity checks from both sides for the >> candidates that are returned in the first offer. That will help up the >> success rate of trickle ICE. >> > > See above. I don't think this analysis is really correct. > > -Ekr > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > --20cf302efaf685ba6404f9b8ff03 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Agree with Martin's analysis.

Regar= ding what we should do after a new setLocalDescription, the implementation = does need to change the value of iceGatheringState if new gathering is goin= g to occur. As pointed out, since we don't have a callback for iceGathe= ringState, firing onicecandidate(null) if no gathering needs to happen seem= s reasonable, if inelegant.=C2=A0

But the reason for not having an iceGatheringState call= back was because we felt that it was redundant with onicecandidate. That no= w seems debatable, and I'd rather add that callback than pound onicecan= didate until it looks like said callback.


On Sat, May 1= 7, 2014 at 5:28 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:



On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Cullen Jennings <= span dir=3D"ltr"><flu= ffy@iii.ca> wrote:

On May 11, 2014, at 6:51 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

> However, we agreed in London that we would do "always trickle&quo= t;, and
> that even if there were candidates available at the time when CreateOf= fer
> (because of candidate pooling) was called, they would not be included<= br> > in the initial offer.

Hmm - did we agree they would not be there or they might not be there= ?

My memory is that Justin argued= that it would be more consistent to
not have them and I agreed t= o check to see if that was a big deal
for Firefox. It's not.

= =C2=A0
Either way, I think that things will work better if we can provide whatever= information we have available at the time the =C2=A0call returns. So my pr= eference would be that if they are in the pool, they are returned as early = as possible.

We're talking about having the onicecandidate= callbacks called immediately
on setLocal(), so this should't= have much latency impact.
=C2=A0<= br>


=C2=A0
I can not really see any good reasons for delaying the return of the candi= dates that are available. =C2=A0Even when you are doing trickily ICE, this = is going to result in less round trips of =E2=80=9Ctrickle=E2=80=9D and res= ult in closer synchronization of the connectivity checks from both sides fo= r the candidates that are returned in the first offer. That will help up th= e success rate of trickle ICE.

See above. I don't think this an= alysis is really correct.

-Ekr



_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


--20cf302efaf685ba6404f9b8ff03-- From nobody Sun May 18 21:17:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 616351A022D for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 21:17:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.829 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.829 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_18=0.6, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YUL6D4DTXmvU for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 21:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-x233.google.com (mail-ve0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c01::233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D10F31A0008 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 21:17:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ve0-f179.google.com with SMTP id oy12so5897440veb.10 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 21:17:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=IYI9rgbnlNLTjSloyTHOGg/GDqHelkgQZJX1twSzoiU=; b=b7tFNCyHjsmY8b6Mt2/Mx73lTSnZ/QZ6RE8Uhbr6ifFmdEJCURvKvQbk+ILHUuC1q5 wqDjXQeIHw7Os2WzwqcnVyZ99Lplym/i+rZXKpQXvyR18m690CZvvg68AOo0wJSEjUIP Q8dyltT57sJHlwPJEym8Q/EI3/72gtfDUX7uzV6WV8MixRLHGljdswH3H/Cc1KB8zsy6 zNlGdumZMt2X8CHpFK/vlge0Uw/QCUAIfwv90uaNigMsf972J5YVmHV9WEOEKAUTn+A2 OYYCJ1+eue0VwERDZWNscjvI+h1d5sQomXEUcto/AvsUoTTLBzCASLLNuoyNh39oUDbT Z/gA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=IYI9rgbnlNLTjSloyTHOGg/GDqHelkgQZJX1twSzoiU=; b=GvL9ZQ+gShO3I1QLkzUSt+MBYna2O+tC+AEzDnSl4hBlcLv728mq/kpKcqVtwk204a /n1LorWa7faCjAl42lRXJCa+VFGF5pY0cYZ1rVNFOHn2VW0bNNhf6Kc1r62z47TrFiC4 UqHfT6KqKNBWa23+aBohubo8CzB8x2IQSBbMQhtalYYfAM8AlO2rx/7VR+EbZ+Mw99e0 iwJU8N3abqfYw6fDc0uqGOMtnJdfcb5r8TLjcCOB3eyGUZXptaXAB5R6ntBV0Q6WOasD 75pYN68kmlQEC6ktnP6vPBs0rejEQsiUzCFJjjqqMBZ1M/GPU3Htkz3qYiHvSKkKG9XG aOLQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQl0vuQU3HId7TtYROvOEfKXM4l/Q3JrkTBwi9O6L8KgJnKXRkPqXDJQG7UO3DZ5BnTJ+Po6 X-Received: by 10.58.211.229 with SMTP id nf5mr28894876vec.19.1400473067295; Sun, 18 May 2014 21:17:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.145.105 with HTTP; Sun, 18 May 2014 21:17:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <534616DC.7090800@nteczone.com> <534CC016.3020901@nteczone.com> From: Justin Uberti Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 21:17:27 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bdc1824b1b96904f9b90baa Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/TeDpfVpLwsM55aFRJJnozuElgZI Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] JSEP/WebRTC API Datachannel question X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 04:17:49 -0000 --047d7bdc1824b1b96904f9b90baa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Agree it would be good to make it clear that there is only ever one m=data section; the text you suggest is a good start. I don't think we want to add a=recvonly on the data line; it's not clear that that attribute is well-defined for non-RTP media sections. On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 2:08 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote: > > On Apr 15, 2014, at 12:13 AM, Christian Groves < > Christian.Groves@nteczone.com> wrote: > > > I'll take a punt that people were thinking about 2 below when data > channel was added. In order to clarify that I propose to add the following > text to the JSEP draft to clarify this. > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06#section-5.2.1 > > Replace: > > "Lastly, if a data channel has been created, a m= section MUST be > > generated for data. The field MUST be set to "application" and > the field MUST be set to "DTLS/SCTP", as specified in > [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp], Section 3; the "fmt" value MUST be set to the > SCTP port number, as specified in Section 4.1." > > > > With: > > / "Lastly, if createDataChannel has been called a m= section MUST be > generated for data. In the case of multiple createDataChannel calls only > one m= section is generated. The field MUST be set to "application" > and the field MUST be set to "DTLS/SCTP", as specified in > [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp], Section 3; the "fmt" value MUST be set to the > SCTP port number, as specified in Section 4.1."/ > > > > New text in > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06#section-5.2.2: > > (above last paragraph) > > / "If createDataChannel has been called and a m= section has not > previously been generated, a m= section MUST be generated for data. In the > case of multiple createDataChannel calls only one m= section is generated. > The field MUST be set to "application" and the field MUST > be set to "DTLS/SCTP", as specified in [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp], Section > 3; the "fmt" value MUST be set to the SCTP port number, as specified in > Section 4.1.// > > // > > //If all data channels have been closed, the m= section related to the > data channels MUST be marked as recvonly by changing the value of the > [RFC3264] directional attribute to "a=recvonly".//"/ > > > > It would also be good to add some text regarding the relationship > between a createDataChannel and DCEP DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN I'm not sure if the > JSEP draft is the place? > > > > Also the W3C draft could be updated to indicate the interaction of a > createDataChannel with the negotiationneeded event in section 5.2 something > along the lines of: > > /7. For the first creation of a RTCDataChannel object fire a > negotiationneeded event at connection./ > > > > > > Regards, > > Christian > > I probably need to think about this more but I think that sounds like a > pretty reasonable change. One way or another, JSEP needs to be clear about > what needs to happen here. > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --047d7bdc1824b1b96904f9b90baa Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Agree it would be good to make it clear that there is only= ever one m=3Ddata section; the text you suggest is a good start.

<= /div>
I don't think we want to add a=3Drecvonly on the data line; i= t's not clear that that attribute is well-defined for non-RTP media sec= tions.


On Sat,= May 17, 2014 at 2:08 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) <fluffy@cisco.com>= ; wrote:

On Apr 15, 2014, at 12:13 AM, Christian Groves <Christian.Groves@nteczone.com> wrote:

> I'll take a punt that people were thinking about 2 below when data= channel was added. In order to clarify that I propose to add the following= text to the JSEP draft to clarify this.
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-jse= p-06#section-5.2.1
> Replace:
> "Lastly, if a data channel has been created, a m=3D section MUST = be
> =C2=A0 generated for data. The <media> field MUST be set to &quo= t;application" and the <proto> field MUST be set to "DTLS/S= CTP", as specified in [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp], Section 3; the "= ;fmt" value MUST be set to the SCTP port number, as specified in Secti= on 4.1."
>
> With:
> / =C2=A0"Lastly, if createDataChannel has been called a m=3D sect= ion MUST be generated for data. In the case of multiple createDataChannel c= alls only one m=3D section is generated. The <media> field MUST be se= t to "application" and the <proto> field MUST be set to &qu= ot;DTLS/SCTP", as specified in [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp], Section 3; = the "fmt" value MUST be set to the SCTP port number, as specified= in Section 4.1."/
>
> New text in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iet= f-rtcweb-jsep-06#section-5.2.2:
> (above last paragraph)
> / "If createDataChannel has been called and a m=3D section has no= t previously been generated, a m=3D section MUST be generated for data. In = the case of multiple createDataChannel calls only one m=3D section is gener= ated. The <media> field MUST be set to "application" and th= e <proto> field MUST be set to "DTLS/SCTP", as specified in= [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp], Section 3; the "fmt" value MUST be s= et to the SCTP port number, as specified in Section 4.1.//
> //
> //If all data channels have been closed, the m=3D section related to t= he data channels MUST be marked as recvonly by changing the value of the [R= FC3264] directional attribute to "a=3Drecvonly".//"/
>
> It would also be good to add some text regarding the relationship betw= een a createDataChannel and DCEP DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN I'm not sure if the = JSEP draft is the place?
>
> Also the W3C draft could be updated to indicate the interaction of a c= reateDataChannel with the negotiationneeded event in section 5.2 something = along the lines of:
> /7. For the first creation of a RTCDataChannel object fire a negotiati= onneeded event at connection./
>
>
> Regards,
> Christian

I probably need to think about this more but I think that sounds like= a pretty reasonable change. One way or another, JSEP needs to be clear abo= ut what needs to happen here.


_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

--047d7bdc1824b1b96904f9b90baa-- From nobody Sun May 18 21:49:59 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A3831A025C; Sun, 18 May 2014 21:49:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r5Zte6XzMyyf; Sun, 18 May 2014 21:49:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2AD531A024F; Sun, 18 May 2014 21:49:52 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-f790e6d000001067-79-53798d6e041b Received: from ESESSHC015.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 7E.09.04199.E6D89735; Mon, 19 May 2014 06:49:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.28]) by ESESSHC015.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.63]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Mon, 19 May 2014 06:49:50 +0200 From: Christer Holmberg To: Justin Uberti , Martin Thomson Thread-Topic: [MMUSIC] [rtcweb] m-line recycling Thread-Index: AQHPcxO/Dvl2zS/bFU6AGA4jR2LlDZtHVMJw Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 04:49:49 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D321F5B@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D2F672A@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.148] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/eDr2xrT0Vdemhla3_K3aXiwppvI Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , mmusic WG Subject: Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] m-line recycling X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 04:49:56 -0000 --_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D321F5BESESSMB209erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQpIaSwNCg0KPk9uZSBvcHRpb24gY291bGQgYmUgdG8gb25seSByZXVzZSBtPSBsaW5lcyB0aGF0 IGJvdGggc2lkZXMgaGF2ZSBzdG9wcGVkIHVzaW5nIChpLmUuIHBvcnQ9MCwgYXMgPm9wcG9zZWQg dG8gYT1zZW5kb25seS9yZWN2b25seSkuIFRoaXMgcHJvdmlkZXMgbW9zdCBvZiB0aGUgYmVuZWZp dHMgb2YgcmVjeWNsaW5nIHdpdGhvdXQgPmhhdmluZyB0byBkZWFsIHdpdGggdGhlIG5vdGlvbiBv ZiAnY29tcGF0aWJsZScuDQoNCkFyZSB5b3Ugc3VnZ2VzdGluZyBhIE1VU1QgcmV1c2Ugc3VjaCBt 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(using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8252B1A00B6 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 23:35:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool-71-175-4-197.phlapa.fios.verizon.net ([71.175.4.197]:4648 helo=[192.168.1.12]) by r2-chicago.webserversystems.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WmHAa-0003Fa-PC for rtcweb@ietf.org; Mon, 19 May 2014 01:35:33 -0500 Message-ID: <5379A5D3.5090209@jesup.org> Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 02:33:55 -0400 From: Randell Jesup User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <534616DC.7090800@nteczone.com> <534CC016.3020901@nteczone.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------050502010504070901060005" X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - r2-chicago.webserversystems.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jesup.org X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: r2-chicago.webserversystems.com: authenticated_id: randell@jesup.org Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/liMrkIzh3LYTYFITlDG2ncAqL7I Subject: Re: [rtcweb] JSEP/WebRTC API Datachannel question X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 06:35:35 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050502010504070901060005 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/19/2014 12:17 AM, Justin Uberti wrote: > Agree it would be good to make it clear that there is only ever one > m=data section; the text you suggest is a good start. Agree. And agree we should specify the first createDataChannel() can cause a negotiationneeded event. > > I don't think we want to add a=recvonly on the data line; it's not > clear that that attribute is well-defined for non-RTP media sections. Agree > > > On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 2:08 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) > > wrote: > > > On Apr 15, 2014, at 12:13 AM, Christian Groves > > wrote: > > > I'll take a punt that people were thinking about 2 below when > data channel was added. In order to clarify that I propose to add > the following text to the JSEP draft to clarify this. > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06#section-5.2.1 > > Replace: > > "Lastly, if a data channel has been created, a m= section MUST be > > generated for data. The field MUST be set to > "application" and the field MUST be set to "DTLS/SCTP", as > specified in [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp], Section 3; the "fmt" > value MUST be set to the SCTP port number, as specified in Section > 4.1." > > > > With: > > / "Lastly, if createDataChannel has been called a m= section > MUST be generated for data. In the case of multiple > createDataChannel calls only one m= section is generated. The > field MUST be set to "application" and the field > MUST be set to "DTLS/SCTP", as specified in > [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp], Section 3; the "fmt" value MUST be set > to the SCTP port number, as specified in Section 4.1."/ > > > > New text in > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06#section-5.2.2: > > (above last paragraph) > > / "If createDataChannel has been called and a m= section has not > previously been generated, a m= section MUST be generated for > data. In the case of multiple createDataChannel calls only one m= > section is generated. The field MUST be set to > "application" and the field MUST be set to "DTLS/SCTP", as > specified in [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp], Section 3; the "fmt" > value MUST be set to the SCTP port number, as specified in Section > 4.1.// > > // > > //If all data channels have been closed, the m= section related > to the data channels MUST be marked as recvonly by changing the > value of the [RFC3264] directional attribute to "a=recvonly".//"/ > > > > It would also be good to add some text regarding the > relationship between a createDataChannel and DCEP > DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN I'm not sure if the JSEP draft is the place? > > > > Also the W3C draft could be updated to indicate the interaction > of a createDataChannel with the negotiationneeded event in section > 5.2 something along the lines of: > > /7. For the first creation of a RTCDataChannel object fire a > negotiationneeded event at connection./ > > > > > > Regards, > > Christian > > I probably need to think about this more but I think that sounds > like a pretty reasonable change. One way or another, JSEP needs to > be clear about what needs to happen here. > -- Randell Jesup -- rjesup a t mozilla d o t com --------------050502010504070901060005 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 5/19/2014 12:17 AM, Justin Uberti wrote:
Agree it would be good to make it clear that there is only ever one m=data section; the text you suggest is a good start.

Agree.  And agree we should specify the first createDataChannel() can cause a negotiationneeded event.


I don't think we want to add a=recvonly on the data line; it's not clear that that attribute is well-defined for non-RTP media sections.

Agree



On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 2:08 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) <fluffy@cisco.com> wrote:

On Apr 15, 2014, at 12:13 AM, Christian Groves <Christian.Groves@nteczone.com> wrote:

> I'll take a punt that people were thinking about 2 below when data channel was added. In order to clarify that I propose to add the following text to the JSEP draft to clarify this.
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06#section-5.2.1
> Replace:
> "Lastly, if a data channel has been created, a m= section MUST be
>   generated for data. The <media> field MUST be set to "application" and the <proto> field MUST be set to "DTLS/SCTP", as specified in [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp], Section 3; the "fmt" value MUST be set to the SCTP port number, as specified in Section 4.1."
>
> With:
> /  "Lastly, if createDataChannel has been called a m= section MUST be generated for data. In the case of multiple createDataChannel calls only one m= section is generated. The <media> field MUST be set to "application" and the <proto> field MUST be set to "DTLS/SCTP", as specified in [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp], Section 3; the "fmt" value MUST be set to the SCTP port number, as specified in Section 4.1."/
>
> New text in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06#section-5.2.2:
> (above last paragraph)
> / "If createDataChannel has been called and a m= section has not previously been generated, a m= section MUST be generated for data. In the case of multiple createDataChannel calls only one m= section is generated. The <media> field MUST be set to "application" and the <proto> field MUST be set to "DTLS/SCTP", as specified in [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp], Section 3; the "fmt" value MUST be set to the SCTP port number, as specified in Section 4.1.//
> //
> //If all data channels have been closed, the m= section related to the data channels MUST be marked as recvonly by changing the value of the [RFC3264] directional attribute to "a=recvonly".//"/
>
> It would also be good to add some text regarding the relationship between a createDataChannel and DCEP DATA_CHANNEL_OPEN I'm not sure if the JSEP draft is the place?
>
> Also the W3C draft could be updated to indicate the interaction of a createDataChannel with the negotiationneeded event in section 5.2 something along the lines of:
> /7. For the first creation of a RTCDataChannel object fire a negotiationneeded event at connection./
>
>
> Regards,
> Christian

I probably need to think about this more but I think that sounds like a pretty reasonable change. One way or another, JSEP needs to be clear about what needs to happen here.

-- 
Randell Jesup -- rjesup a t mozilla d o t com
--------------050502010504070901060005-- From nobody Mon May 19 00:08:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D6C21A0302 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 00:07:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, MSGID_MULTIPLE_AT=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fPdK0rHijzsh for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 00:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.it-norr.com (smtp.it-norr.com [80.244.64.161]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E91361A02FE for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 00:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([90.229.134.75]) by smtp.it-norr.com (Telecom3 SMTP service) with ASMTP id 201405190907517087; Mon, 19 May 2014 09:07:51 +0200 From: "Karl Stahl" To: "'Martin Thomson'" , "'Cullen Jennings \(fluffy\)'" References: <20140502095509.21732.16127.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 09:07:50 +0200 Message-ID: <04cb01cf7331$0bd8e7f0$238ab7d0$@stahl@intertex.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac9zCoqlBK9Z1LD4Qaaa1xEOhiJ0sAAHxFRQ Content-Language: sv Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/vlveLp0hQFtDwiUmnt3ZWA7BEaU Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Interim agenda and network provided TURN server, draft-patil-tram-turn-serv-disc-01.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 07:07:59 -0000 The need and methods for discovering a network provided (enterprise and = ISP) turn server was discussed in september-october = http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg09128.html=20 and is now being worked out in the tram draft in the subject. We need to get such turn servers used by the webrtc browsers for many = reasons,=20 http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg00132.html=20 E.g. many enterprises cannot use WebRTC at all today due to their = restrictive firewall policies - they need a TURN server with one = LAN-interface, discovered and used by the WebRTC browsers to even begin = using WebRTC. The tram-draft method of having an anycast address for such turn-server = seems quick and easy to implement in the browsers, so we get something = working - but there is no IANA assigned anycast address for that yet... The rtcweb-transports draft may be the place to put such usage in. /Karl -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fr=C3=A5n: Martin Thomson [mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com]=20 Skickat: den 19 maj 2014 04:32 Till: Cullen Jennings (fluffy) Kopia: Karl Stahl; rtcweb@ietf.org =C3=84mne: Re: [rtcweb] Interim agenda and network provided TURN server, = draft-patil-tram-turn-serv-disc-01.txt On 18 May 2014 06:33, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote: >> Is the usage of auto discovered TURN servers by the WebRTC browser=20 >> written into any rtcweb draft or is that to be done? > > I don=E2=80=99t think so. There has been some discussion of if a pac = file type approach could be used much like how the HTTP proxy is = discovered. Firefox has a pref for a STUN server. That is used if you don't supply = any STUN or TURN servers of your own. Users can add their own TURN = server here. The idea of autodiscovery is interesting, but it's still early days. From nobody Mon May 19 01:38:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 512E21A0323; Mon, 19 May 2014 01:38:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aMjKWXv56F62; Mon, 19 May 2014 01:38:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D38121A0162; Mon, 19 May 2014 01:38:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.4.2.p3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140519083842.21555.8626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 01:38:42 -0700 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/x3UUnUgA2tJSzk87NhDaRZaYGsI Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-03.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 08:38:44 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers Working Group of the IETF. Title : STUN Usage for Consent Freshness Authors : Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal Dan Wing Ram Mohan Ravindranath Tirumaleswar Reddy Martin Thomson Filename : draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-03.txt Pages : 9 Date : 2014-05-19 Abstract: To prevent sending excessive traffic to an endpoint, periodic consent needs to be obtained from that remote endpoint. This document describes a consent mechanism using a new STUN usage. This same mechanism can also determine connection loss ("liveness") with a remote peer. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon May 19 02:59:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B9F91A032F for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 02:59:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B3iCsF_STZGj for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 02:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 059A01A0314 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 02:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [130.209.247.112] (port=55311 helo=mangole.dcs.gla.ac.uk) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WmKMC-00046q-Am; Mon, 19 May 2014 10:59:44 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: <9F33F40F6F2CD847824537F3C4E37DDF17D9A382@MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net> Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 10:59:39 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <34C2927B-D426-4115-8B12-C88F301F70BD@csperkins.org> References: <20140516113400.20381.24325.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5375F8A4.7040901@ericsson.com> <9F33F40F6F2CD847824537F3C4E37DDF17D9A382@MCHP04MSX.global-ad.net> To: "Hutton, Andrew" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: -28 X-Mythic-Debug: Threshold = On = Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/j7OUcNl4OuI6x2raIUecHozi_kU Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-14.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 09:59:50 -0000 On 19 May 2014, at 01:11, Hutton, Andrew = wrote: > Looking through the updates and it is looking good I have a couple of = minor comments. >=20 > In sections 4.5 and 4.6 the text around the use of SDP has been = cleaned up but now both sections state a MUST requirement against = signaling if SDP is used. For example section 4.5 states "If SDP is = used for signalling, this negotiation MUST use the attributes defined in = [RFC5761]". Whilst it makes sense to implement it this way probably the = RTP usage document should not contain "MUST" level requirements on how = signaling is implemented. >=20 > Maybe this is really something for the API considerations as if SDP is = used at the API then we could say this is how it MUST be implemented. I don=92t see this as a problem. Many RTP-related specification mandate = particular SDP attributes if SDP signalling is used.=20 > Type on section 6 "However, they generally some add overhead" -> = "However,they generally add some overhead". Fixed, thanks. --=20 Colin Perkins http://csperkins.org/ From nobody Mon May 19 04:05:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 480401A0350 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 04:05:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.149 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.149 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xj-1QeJHE7eo for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 04:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mork.alvestrand.no (mork.alvestrand.no [IPv6:2001:700:1:2::117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1274C1A034F for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 04:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CDC37C36F2 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 13:05:16 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Received: from mork.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mork.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sk5B8fPXL1tg for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 13:05:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.199.4.109] (unknown [12.238.61.12]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A52967C36F9 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 13:05:13 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <5379E568.8010908@alvestrand.no> Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 13:05:12 +0200 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------010505050109040706020802" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/o1i_rOe3vmtLd-Y7DHO-TlSHJ1w Subject: [rtcweb] Slides on the Transport document X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 11:05:22 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010505050109040706020802 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For the slot today on Transport, here's a slide deck. It's a fast read - chairs, please indicate what you want to focus on! Harald -- Surveillance is pervasive. 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MDAwMTE4MTcgMDAwMDAgbiAKMDAwMDAxMDAyMyAwMDAwMCBuIAowMDAwMDEwMDQzIDAwMDAw IG4gCjAwMDAwMzM1NzUgMDAwMDAgbiAKMDAwMDAxMjI5NyAwMDAwMCBuIAowMDAwMDM0MDUz IDAwMDAwIG4gCjAwMDAwMTI3MDYgMDAwMDAgbiAKMDAwMDA2NDk5MyAwMDAwMCBuIAowMDAw MDM0MjU1IDAwMDAwIG4gCjAwMDAwNjU2NzQgMDAwMDAgbiAKMDAwMDAzNDcxNiAwMDAwMCBu IAowMDAwMDY1ODcxIDAwMDAwIG4gCjAwMDAwNjU4OTEgMDAwMDAgbiAKMDAwMDA2NTkxMyAw MDAwMCBuIAowMDAwMDY1OTMzIDAwMDAwIG4gCnRyYWlsZXIKPDwKL1NpemUKNzIKL1Jvb3QK NAowClIKL0luZm8KNQowClIKPj4Kc3RhcnR4cmVmCjY2MDc4CiUlRU9GCg== --------------010505050109040706020802-- From nobody Mon May 19 04:13:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51F531A0348 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 04:13:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qEsVpDVwgbTX for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 04:13:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout-08.mxes.net (mxout-08.mxes.net [216.86.168.183]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C21371A0347 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 04:13:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [107.16.249.21] (unknown [107.16.249.21]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5996E50A73; Mon, 19 May 2014 07:12:56 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Cullen Jennings In-Reply-To: <5379E568.8010908@alvestrand.no> Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 07:16:05 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <19A85C32-DEB0-4206-97A3-F75340C26B02@iii.ca> References: <5379E568.8010908@alvestrand.no> To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/wgXgR0zLMmAgDHWi1G_2sSTp8u8 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Slides on the Transport document X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 11:13:02 -0000 I uploaded slides - folks can find them at=20 = http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/interim/2014/05/19/rtcweb/proceedings.html= On May 19, 2014, at 7:05 AM, Harald Alvestrand = wrote: > It's a fast read - chairs, please indicate what you want to focus on! >=20 The HTTP Connect stuff is currently out of scope for this WG so we can = skip theses parts.=20 Cullen with my chair hat on.=20 From nobody Mon May 19 04:15:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3725E1A0351 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 04:15:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YtH9EDukG3KT for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 04:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mork.alvestrand.no (mork.alvestrand.no [IPv6:2001:700:1:2::117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADDF51A034B for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 04:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 392567C36F8; Mon, 19 May 2014 13:15:21 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Received: from mork.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mork.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2XrkLokZnYfq; Mon, 19 May 2014 13:15:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.199.4.109] (unknown [12.238.61.12]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0C4787C36F6; Mon, 19 May 2014 13:15:19 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <5379E7C6.2060107@alvestrand.no> Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 13:15:18 +0200 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cullen Jennings References: <5379E568.8010908@alvestrand.no> <19A85C32-DEB0-4206-97A3-F75340C26B02@iii.ca> In-Reply-To: <19A85C32-DEB0-4206-97A3-F75340C26B02@iii.ca> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/As_iFncdQdgbyCDsvBL4Jz2S6tw Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Slides on the Transport document X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 11:15:23 -0000 On 05/19/2014 01:16 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote: > I uploaded slides - folks can find them at > > http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/interim/2014/05/19/rtcweb/proceedings.html > > > On May 19, 2014, at 7:05 AM, Harald Alvestrand wrote: > >> It's a fast read - chairs, please indicate what you want to focus on! >> > The HTTP Connect stuff is currently out of scope for this WG so we can skip theses parts. What group's scope is it in? It would be a shame to not be able to reference a mechanism that people use in practice just because we can't figure out the scope. > > Cullen with my chair hat on. > > -- Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. From nobody Mon May 19 04:18:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A731E1A034E for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 04:18:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ImN6GierssdF for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 04:18:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mork.alvestrand.no (mork.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4A331A0348 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 04:18:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 047847C36F8 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 13:18:21 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Received: from mork.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mork.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2MZOCS2P7iRi for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 13:18:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.199.4.109] (unknown [12.238.61.12]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 928747C36F6 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 13:18:18 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <5379E879.6080903@alvestrand.no> Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 13:18:17 +0200 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <804DCB7A-9D65-4438-82C7-1A553905984B@iii.ca> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090109040009080802030107" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/QpjBLbIUY2oNIaDmc-XkLtTdY5Y Subject: Re: [rtcweb] When are ICE candidates added to the SDP X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 11:18:24 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090109040009080802030107 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 05/19/2014 06:14 AM, Justin Uberti wrote: > Agree with Martin's analysis. > > Regarding what we should do after a new setLocalDescription, the > implementation does need to change the value of iceGatheringState if > new gathering is going to occur. As pointed out, since we don't have a > callback for iceGatheringState, firing onicecandidate(null) if no > gathering needs to happen seems reasonable, if inelegant. > > But the reason for not having an iceGatheringState callback was > because we felt that it was redundant with onicecandidate. That now > seems debatable, and I'd rather add that callback than pound > onicecandidate until it looks like said callback. The onicecandidate(NULL) always seemed inelegant to me; it wasn't supplying a candidate, it was indicating something else. I'd be happy with replacing it with an iceGatheringState change callback (if we can ensure that this will do the Right Thing in all cases...) > > > On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 5:28 PM, Eric Rescorla > wrote: > > > > > On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Cullen Jennings > wrote: > > > On May 11, 2014, at 6:51 PM, Eric Rescorla > wrote: > > > However, we agreed in London that we would do "always > trickle", and > > that even if there were candidates available at the time > when CreateOffer > > (because of candidate pooling) was called, they would not be > included > > in the initial offer. > > Hmm - did we agree they would not be there or they might not > be there? > > > My memory is that Justin argued that it would be more consistent to > not have them and I agreed to check to see if that was a big deal > for Firefox. It's not. > > > > Either way, I think that things will work better if we can > provide whatever information we have available at the time the > call returns. So my preference would be that if they are in > the pool, they are returned as early as possible. > > > We're talking about having the onicecandidate callbacks called > immediately > on setLocal(), so this should't have much latency impact. > > > > > > > > I can not really see any good reasons for delaying the return > of the candidates that are available. Even when you are doing > trickily ICE, this is going to result in less round trips of > "trickle" and result in closer synchronization of the > connectivity checks from both sides for the candidates that > are returned in the first offer. That will help up the success > rate of trickle ICE. > > > See above. I don't think this analysis is really correct. > > -Ekr > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb -- Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. --------------090109040009080802030107 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 05/19/2014 06:14 AM, Justin Uberti wrote:
Agree with Martin's analysis.

Regarding what we should do after a new setLocalDescription, the implementation does need to change the value of iceGatheringState if new gathering is going to occur. As pointed out, since we don't have a callback for iceGatheringState, firing onicecandidate(null) if no gathering needs to happen seems reasonable, if inelegant. 

But the reason for not having an iceGatheringState callback was because we felt that it was redundant with onicecandidate. That now seems debatable, and I'd rather add that callback than pound onicecandidate until it looks like said callback.

The onicecandidate(NULL) always seemed inelegant to me; it wasn't supplying a candidate, it was indicating something else.

I'd be happy with replacing it with an iceGatheringState change callback (if we can ensure that this will do the Right Thing in all cases...)



On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 5:28 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:



On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> wrote:

On May 11, 2014, at 6:51 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

> However, we agreed in London that we would do "always trickle", and
> that even if there were candidates available at the time when CreateOffer
> (because of candidate pooling) was called, they would not be included
> in the initial offer.

Hmm - did we agree they would not be there or they might not be there?

My memory is that Justin argued that it would be more consistent to
not have them and I agreed to check to see if that was a big deal
for Firefox. It's not.

 
Either way, I think that things will work better if we can provide whatever information we have available at the time the  call returns. So my preference would be that if they are in the pool, they are returned as early as possible.

We're talking about having the onicecandidate callbacks called immediately
on setLocal(), so this should't have much latency impact.
 


 
I can not really see any good reasons for delaying the return of the candidates that are available.  Even when you are doing trickily ICE, this is going to result in less round trips of “trickle” and result in closer synchronization of the connectivity checks from both sides for the candidates that are returned in the first offer. That will help up the success rate of trickle ICE.

See above. I don't think this analysis is really correct.

-Ekr



_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb




_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb



-- 
Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark.
--------------090109040009080802030107-- From nobody Mon May 19 05:38:09 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C5CE1A0359 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 05:38:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.028 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.028 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WIMJx0tf2QDG for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 05:37:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x22a.google.com (mail-vc0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22a]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 69D451A0362 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 05:37:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f170.google.com with SMTP id lf12so9550425vcb.1 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 05:37:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=JIyWzILa9eSCkAL6ISlYX8mz1AGbcm/MAwkNXfcCIZk=; b=g/yHS5FQx4sU4HNICjFTv9jcfv5DrMi9eYAKmZt5nDaXTAExRf4ypDxAv2Uv1NU3eq 6NpE3U7gTGK2KBGIQC1/lhQFTFFvMFKQALOKD0Mrv3hvDgppyEqjTJGrCuj9hRHVs4U2 /mXNgSJsK4dfsMmSKHeIJvPjvpRsSmx+XkqgG6W2irGqMD6/oDRPeeJBSDMFOhMko29G 2crexrPRoCW10JkmwxuqvwjYPyqVb3vBAWGrOC9xJtW3WsyDKg2fYcvpZ3gLm58Z79Bu 23H8djEQNd8y/2TuJoBAjqZwCt8H1BZlDBc0qhu4ObuC9moklICR3d1+6D6LsipgjQYA /sWA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=JIyWzILa9eSCkAL6ISlYX8mz1AGbcm/MAwkNXfcCIZk=; b=Lk+RNelGu9FnbjE7a2ZIT2C5SSeh8zJA271lnWfUj71gho+MOtJwPJ32nT2RQqqfP/ W7kOKTAg1E/vcujVTlSszeRAHTLIAgjlOfxq9j+1taFrA66UEIhdYQfaHtnIMY3zdGzF /oLCUAYOjxVtFI7wLOfMIsBFk0H8SYzyvwBSEj9RNDLMviMVF5LhaoZd97M7yRbydbJS yKx332AmYEFt/GR9kRbDKUVITkj7EYcfHccFwTAHS75vB5px1dEQjrjyZjqbPNnP33mF c1+KtKyXOv+PtG7qWiauQuBdvb8hJUOXWYJNUMrEK5cFS/cuuL+jF/FW/KVq7+BYlG+u LHgQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkAz/lj91fiYzrs9CEhD1RLZ8YrqDnplC8j1gIREIfU/uUKozd6wsoJu4RqLzD7tg+zZp/t X-Received: by 10.220.59.65 with SMTP id k1mr14455457vch.22.1400503076655; Mon, 19 May 2014 05:37:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.145.105 with HTTP; Mon, 19 May 2014 05:37:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D321F5B@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D2F672A@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B1D321F5B@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> From: Justin Uberti Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 05:37:36 -0700 Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2950264369d04f9c008d4 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/xq-Z_TxJZKIMVjbbb9gvfH_E9G8 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , mmusic WG Subject: Re: [rtcweb] [MMUSIC] m-line recycling X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 12:38:06 -0000 --001a11c2950264369d04f9c008d4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable yes On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 9:49 PM, Christer Holmberg < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > >One option could be to only reuse m=3D lines that both sides have stoppe= d > using (i.e. port=3D0, as >opposed to a=3Dsendonly/recvonly). This provide= s > most of the benefits of recycling without >having to deal with the notion > of 'compatible'. > > > > Are you suggesting a MUST reuse such m=3D line, if available? > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 7:43 AM, Martin Thomson > wrote: > > Yes, some words about being compatible and all that entails are required > if we intend to stipulate it being reused. Either that or we can say MAY. > The need for a strong definition diminishes then. > > On May 11, 2014 11:54 PM, "Christer Holmberg" < > christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I don=E2=80=99t think it should be a MUST =E2=80=93 at least not only bas= ed on the media > type. Because, there may be other properties than the media type associat= ed > with the =E2=80=9Cm=3D=E2=80=9D line, why one does not want to use it for= the specific MST. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > > > > > *From:* mmusic [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Eric > Rescorla > *Sent:* 12. toukokuuta 2014 7:50 > *To:* mmusic WG; rtcweb@ietf.org > *Subject:* [MMUSIC] m-line recycling > > > > The JSEP spec specifies m-line recycling: > > > > > > > > o If any MediaStreamTracks have been added, and there exist m=3D > > sections of the appropriate media type with no associated > > MediaStreamTracks (i.e. as described in the preceding paragraph), > > those m=3D sections MUST be recycled by adding the new > > MediaStreamTrack to the m=3D section. This is done by adding the > > necessary "a=3Dmsid", "a=3Dssrc", and "a=3Dssrc-group" lines to the > > recycled m=3D section, and removing the "a=3Drecvonly" attribute. > > Based on the minutes from IETF 89, we were going to take this to mmusic. > > http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-89-rtcweb?useMonospaceFo= nt=3Dtrue > > > > > > > > > > Thoughts? > > -Ekr > > > > https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/21 > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > > > --001a11c2950264369d04f9c008d4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
yes


On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 9:49 PM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

=C2=A0

Hi,<= /p>

=C2=A0

>One option = could be to only reuse m=3D lines that both sides have stopped using (i.e. = port=3D0, as >opposed to a=3Dsendonly/recvonly).= This provides most of the benefits of recycling without >having to deal with the notion of = 'compatible'.

=C2=A0

Are you suggesting a MUST reuse such m=3D line= , if available?

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0<= /p>

On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 7:43 AM, Martin Thomson <= martin.thomso= n@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, some words about being compatible and all that entails are required= if we intend to stipulate it being reused. Either that or we can say MAY. = The need for a strong definition diminishes then.

On May 11, 2014 11:54 PM, "Christer Holmberg&qu= ot; <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi,=

=C2=A0

I don=E2= =80=99t think it should be a MUST =E2=80=93 at least not only based on the = media type. Because, there may be other properties than the media type associated with the =E2= =80=9Cm=3D=E2=80=9D line, why one does not want to use it for the specific = MST.

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: mmusic [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rescorla
Sent: 12. toukokuuta 2014 7:50
To: mmusic WG; rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: [MMUSIC] m-line recycling

=C2=A0

The JSEP spec specifies m-line recycling:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0
=C2=A0
 o=C2=A0 If any MediaStreamTracks have been added=
, and there exist m=3D

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 sections of the ap=
propriate media type with no associated<=
u>


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 MediaStreamTracks =
(i.e. as described in the preceding paragraph),=





=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 those m=3D section=
s MUST be recycled by adding the new<=
/u>


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 MediaStreamTrack t=
o the m=3D section.=C2=A0 This is done by adding the


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 necessary "a=
=3Dmsid", "a=3Dssrc", and "a=3Dssrc-group" lines t=
o the




=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 recycled m=3D sect=
ion, and removing the "a=3Drecvonly" attribute.




Based=C2=A0on the minutes from IETF 89, we were going to take this to mm=
usic.




http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ie=
tf-89-rtcweb?useMonospaceFont=3Dtrue





=C2=A0


=C2=A0


=C2=A0


=C2=A0


Thoughts?=



-Ekr

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

_____________________= __________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


_______________________________________________
mmusic mailing list
mmusic@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic

=C2=A0


--001a11c2950264369d04f9c008d4-- From nobody Mon May 19 05:47:03 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5E3D1A0365 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 05:47:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o_dCViGFZei3 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 05:46:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p-us1-iereast-outbound.us1.avaya.com (p-us1-iereast-outbound.us1.avaya.com [135.11.29.13]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS 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participation for RTCWEB Interim Thread-Index: AQHPcScMX2a2AIhHyEKe086MiDEuBJtH3efQ Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 12:46:53 +0000 Message-ID: <9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA5C7EB70A@AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.64.58.46] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA5C7EB70AAZFFEXMB04globa_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/AHNauf1rdR4dcLUGDSWl0FpYO20 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Remote participation for RTCWEB Interim X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 12:47:02 -0000 --_000_9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA5C7EB70AAZFFEXMB04globa_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 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--_000_9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA5C7EB70AAZFFEXMB04globa_-- From nobody Mon May 19 05:56:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2DC61A0367 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 05:56:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3St92dSG2yQs for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 05:56:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22c.google.com (mail-wi0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 42E0B1A0336 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 05:56:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f172.google.com with SMTP id hi2so4077263wib.5 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 05:56:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type :thread-index:content-language; bh=vWq7ZPFMowV1FQpWi7DmarmylBX+Go4OZdO5uWQe5do=; b=agbVHxw0Ek/2QEaAlCTXhzrhsgSahP1vUJ6NRsyMqUQ3Sfes17L3sG+LKEM+Xq2Yv4 XJvXLvbmptaYfbyCYUJQYYm/5vhZaezOJKflV71iKBDHSeT3aCc67tacacJZq47mI0xW j1+W4iZTjzbIpuHkAQ7HlS3tZ7dWjN52uVLsFE3ZPt/R0vj/DiQfhHOSJT7RqMGTnHL+ qUkKUtTuCynCZpsWgU0FvfAe/+SBS+psCWxEfJyK8x0p1NE7HVwuTbt0AXxkC+DyYLa9 +qU8sFG66G0FUFHDCvSEHRRcWXgmNGYpZAGL6DterFTG2Jg/esq+01tQs2UyFJpn9ST5 OhJw== X-Received: by 10.180.184.167 with SMTP id ev7mr12831155wic.55.1400504178979; Mon, 19 May 2014 05:56:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from RoniE ([109.67.104.144]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id go1sm14958456wib.7.2014.05.19.05.56.17 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 19 May 2014 05:56:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roni Even" To: "'Ted Hardie'" Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 15:56:13 +0300 Message-ID: <027901cf7361$b8f268f0$2ad73ad0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_027A_01CF737A.DE3FEF10" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: Ac9zYaLH7U4kpnnJQfSeZQkfiosfVQ== Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/ZT8-nb5vb3VeQRuoFgSvcYV90nA Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: [rtcweb] cannot join the hangout X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 12:56:22 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_027A_01CF737A.DE3FEF10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I am unable to join the hangout Need help Roni ------=_NextPart_000_027A_01CF737A.DE3FEF10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

I am unable to = join the hangout

Need = help

Roni

------=_NextPart_000_027A_01CF737A.DE3FEF10-- From nobody Mon May 19 06:22:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF6011A039D for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 06:22:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.029 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.029 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wCdn4OHiyXzg for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 06:22:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x22b.google.com (mail-vc0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22b]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 56C001A03A9 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 06:22:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f171.google.com with SMTP id lc6so9453678vcb.16 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 06:22:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=fPlyndQImUGGVmAbosyEUM7b6QOpGFiy139dHi0kanA=; b=doXogx5NwbTqnqGYrm721CDuMw/6MHZZvSAplG1l1GbejTTnD83y61yWBC0XJGzEr1 FvNhYftYULqCXscpV8cwMUI0O4C3FquC5cBABcd3YUMnM4DRFZoCdj22tOo4WwlXhFx9 hYsXeJV+lARCmHQCbjwtP8CNfwv61n+8HzWf21L7U0KV4e0f9mS2BAVxw25kgj1LOu43 C98zXGe1rSx3J3eJ5WAgL/K0ov43uUUY671oSIfJZCm2fd1GQ2WiUNyDZ3HNMJfuCLty pUAcKzbMScz/8vAcpSX/rN185AyT8YhkpWynQfoG81A2pUjYHOfDW8bf70+Gh9922pOd V0dQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=fPlyndQImUGGVmAbosyEUM7b6QOpGFiy139dHi0kanA=; b=PZhVY9pMioVjGlXw0XcJYSbhGYhHtk1aWSMfNmy977MJkjy+LVSHD0ym53ApLbuyUv RQLhey9+acPcO9/HOJxbdj5Nu9VzJP/G4UoC9GjzosC8ECoGWR3R3luD6+9NQWDZNe1+ 8wt7YORI9OfSyHuOEpaCOz9CHRaRd41tgmLvowkoGa3dJGyXIiUuDw0q+kRHRNv5vyNd tkVa0NkKufaro9eRzbmfYycB3jjzBLMzObOJRdXfJn8RPo+3Ihs/99st+/b7E2NaicA9 WdUDpt+OuwHkcBm23y/1Wc2r6DnOH6mDy6zHazbyzg+T/z0I6ZGmkrvchl39EaLYu4tD F16Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlplDQgM9spTDlFCkm7TuQoH7FaDsv63RcM4tG+WzGHvvYTzP01uRnVKAIz2zHcqunDQjEh X-Received: by 10.58.228.163 with SMTP id sj3mr18723130vec.28.1400505726406; Mon, 19 May 2014 06:22:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.145.105 with HTTP; Mon, 19 May 2014 06:21:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Justin Uberti Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 06:21:45 -0700 Message-ID: To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bd6b332542d4c04f9c0a60f Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/u2i0z1yGUWPrfhw22gXyk31u1Sk Subject: [rtcweb] A proposal for FEC X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 13:22:08 -0000 --047d7bd6b332542d4c04f9c0a60f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 RFC 5109 defines a basic XOR-based scheme that should be useful in certain cases (e.g. high RTT). The concern expressed today about this not working in BUNDLE situations is addressed in RFC 5956, S 4.3, using ssrc-group to allow SSRC multiplexing, and this is endorsed by Unified Plan, S 3.3 . I would like to see ULPFEC/5109 move forward as a baseline FEC mechanism for 1.0. We can look into other options for future versions of WebRTC. --047d7bd6b332542d4c04f9c0a60f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
RFC 5109 defines a basic XOR-based scheme that should be u= seful in certain cases (e.g. high RTT). The concern expressed today about t= his not working in BUNDLE situations is addressed in RFC 5956, S 4.3, using ssrc-group = to allow SSRC multiplexing, and this is endorsed by Unified Plan, S = 3.3.

I would like to see ULPFEC/5109 move forward as a baseline F= EC mechanism for 1.0. We can look into other options for future versions of= WebRTC.
--047d7bd6b332542d4c04f9c0a60f-- From nobody Mon May 19 06:24:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5287E1A005C for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 06:24:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8FRZHm86rBhW for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 06:24:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-5.cisco.com (alln-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.142.92]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97AA81A005A for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 06:24:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2231; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1400505871; x=1401715471; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-id:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=eoexwpuU9Wro7G3tTyq9Aga2dznVJTqo8eBOg7dJl7A=; b=PJCz0c2QJzGgZpM9UNn5rxqBZWqFY4UsQvfsQtqfu2jGun1JuQ8f8o8s NtStxX8vOTuRrzLQxkLeU4e7LInJMWtLhK0SYHE6GMmAnQ61z6V6PYq6Q IBDqmmxN/zlHrM3fSJL29j1U1FzNVQkGSD3BErI+zL/BiM34iU77akADl g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AssIANcEelOtJV2U/2dsb2JhbABZgwZRUQe8SYZsUQGBExZ0giUBAQEEAQEBNzQXBAIBCBEDAQIfECcLHQgCBBMJiDgIBdFqF44dOgaEOgSZWoE9kV2DN4FuIiA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.98,867,1392163200"; d="scan'208";a="45123152" Received: from rcdn-core-12.cisco.com ([173.37.93.148]) by alln-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 19 May 2014 13:24:28 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x02.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x02.cisco.com [173.37.183.76]) by rcdn-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s4JDOSfP028568 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 13:24:28 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x05.cisco.com ([169.254.11.4]) by xhc-rcd-x02.cisco.com ([173.37.183.76]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Mon, 19 May 2014 08:24:28 -0500 From: "Ram Mohan R (rmohanr)" To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHPc2WoIHu7NbKgI0mtkuTt2pCspA== Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 13:24:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20140519083842.21555.8626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20140519083842.21555.8626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [10.65.58.19] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <000FA1B2CD94D945992A5691DF723146@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/N637MhwY2dj2bJn3XQfC1vYCj0U Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-03.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 13:24:33 -0000 The revision has text on 1) Explaining how consent expires and is revoked (sections 4.1 and 4.2). 2) Added an example (non normative) implementation procedure. Comments are welcome -Authors -----Original Message----- From: "internet-drafts@ietf.org" Date: Monday, 19 May 2014 2:08 pm To: "i-d-announce@ietf.org" Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-03.txt > >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >directories. > This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers >Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : STUN Usage for Consent Freshness > Authors : Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal > Dan Wing > Ram Mohan Ravindranath > Tirumaleswar Reddy > Martin Thomson > Filename : draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-03.txt > Pages : 9 > Date : 2014-05-19 > >Abstract: > To prevent sending excessive traffic to an endpoint, periodic consent > needs to be obtained from that remote endpoint. > > This document describes a consent mechanism using a new STUN usage. > This same mechanism can also determine connection loss ("liveness") > with a remote peer. > > >The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness/ > >There's also a htmlized version available at: >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-03 > >A diff from the previous version is available at: >http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshnes= s- >03 > > >Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >submission >until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > >Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > >_______________________________________________ >rtcweb mailing list >rtcweb@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From nobody Mon May 19 06:32:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B3FB1A006E for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 06:32:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PE17lmOPLwue for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 06:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F2A71A007B for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 06:32:31 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-f798c6d000001521-80-537a07ed9bcf Received: from ESESSHC011.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 2D.CA.05409.DE70A735; Mon, 19 May 2014 15:32:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.28]) by ESESSHC011.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.51]) with mapi id 14.03.0174.001; Mon, 19 May 2014 15:32:28 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Stefan_H=E5kansson_LK?= To: Justin Uberti , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] A proposal for FEC Thread-Index: AQHPc2VZWhEt2aWp0EKb2EsU3zY1vg== Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 13:32:28 +0000 Message-ID: <1447FA0C20ED5147A1AA0EF02890A64B1CFFBA55@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.19] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrILMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje5b9qpgg1P/bSy2ThWyWPuvnd2B yWPBplKPJUt+MgUwRXHZpKTmZJalFunbJXBlfHjUw1Jwj63i8bbtTA2MZ1i7GDk5JARMJCa8 OsAGYYtJXLi3HswWEjjKKLF4C18XIxeQvRjI/n+TESTBJhAosXXfArAiEQFviZb3E4DiHBzC AhoSnbftQUwRAU2J7qmuEBV6Ep2Pd4NVswioSpzdt5AZxOYV8JV4sbCZEWJVgMTGzutgNYxA J3w/tYYJxGYWEJe49WQ+E8RpAhJL9pxnhrBFJV4+/gd1vqJE+9MGRoh6PYkbU6ewQdjaEssW vobaJShxcuYTlgmMIrOQjJ2FpGUWkpZZSFoWMLKsYhQtTi1Oyk03MtZLLcpMLi7Oz9PLSy3Z xAiMg4NbfqvuYLz8xvEQowAHoxIP74LUymAh1sSy4srcQ4zSHCxK4ry3d5UGCwmkJ5akZqem FqQWxReV5qQWH2Jk4uCUamBkP7TZ6OHcfWGNu41eGrz79K9n8tIsV9+yh6plqSfm8QUc5ZO7 e+nx/bubdr7lSZvmuXbLRe7yFxsPTTxnFHnJebFxmrnEma6u9Eengrepr+F/a/XGmfee+MoZ EywOr3nxQCR313fb973LFUs3p09PfrGvNvjmK+M79S6rPH6oTi7Y9JmnP/NIgRJLcUaioRZz UXEiACO6b4dkAgAA Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/OcglDwlnlww86gd8hyRV25wRiyY Subject: Re: [rtcweb] A proposal for FEC X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 13:32:36 -0000 On 2014-05-19 15:22, Justin Uberti wrote:=0A= > RFC 5109 defines a basic XOR-based scheme that should be useful in=0A= > certain cases (e.g. high RTT). The concern expressed today about this=0A= > not working in BUNDLE situations is addressed in RFC 5956, S 4.3=0A= > , using ssrc-group to=0A= > allow SSRC multiplexing, and this is endorsed by Unified Plan, S 3.3=0A= > .= =0A= >=0A= > I would like to see ULPFEC/5109 move forward as a baseline FEC mechanism= =0A= > for 1.0. We can look into other options for future versions of WebRTC.=0A= I didn't raise my hand, but after some thinking I agree with Justin. 1.0 = =0A= should be usable for a big variety of operating condition, and for some =0A= of them FEC is useful.=0A= From nobody Mon May 19 06:54:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A77FF1A0366 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 06:54:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z9AuovF7mHD6 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 06:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yk0-f174.google.com (mail-yk0-f174.google.com [209.85.160.174]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B2381A0363 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 06:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yk0-f174.google.com with SMTP id 9so4475260ykp.5 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 06:53:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=5EYHQDz8eAvbnawF1stTV83bqgHwOr/le1JYf4BczXk=; b=VekeRhi7ISBXGTbRRu6EDEMrTYNewLgudN6NW7wPtJr3J5GbqgNPy8uKYhMBs675vT hv2J3KBJvZDp7JQE1n6gnfYHePZ7jH3yXy7QTLIedqPFKNdxu8OW4R9J09239Jer0Nfv w2LNNIwHwObL6WPJjtSPSuuH3jd3gT+9kGxu61/ci81Dxys5ItW7huVJBaiCDyMq7Syi EEKA5E8EM/RLXtgSA42P2XElsB1xbTwA6hnvYIof8Mg/NzCRduUVKoSeCJ4xOhicpZ2t EB1T4Mba1bgVjTvXCpXBm8JOmmh4bsOu0DkbKz1OPL3TTRhWQ+YnFEQhjvuJSxkjrTJH C3CQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmee3QBIZoJXLWqGI6I9QS6eCqKsCS1nJb9VR4AlJnlKJZcSyBu81lA9jjxxFI81/wkhJfN X-Received: by 10.236.183.232 with SMTP id q68mr52606307yhm.100.1400507639653; Mon, 19 May 2014 06:53:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.170.129.84 with HTTP; Mon, 19 May 2014 06:53:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <027901cf7361$b8f268f0$2ad73ad0$@gmail.com> References: <027901cf7361$b8f268f0$2ad73ad0$@gmail.com> From: Thiago Marinello Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 10:53:39 -0300 Message-ID: To: Roni Even Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/5DaWSl81G5FYagUeT-lgMZKeIUU Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] cannot join the hangout X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 13:54:01 -0000 Hi everyone. I am new on this mailing list, but would like to attend the meeting if possible. __ Thiago Marinello +55 19 992 480 860 On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Roni Even wrote: > Hi, > > I am unable to join the hangout > > Need help > > Roni > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > From nobody Mon May 19 06:58:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17B291A0366 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 06:58:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XqbpHB03SJya for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 06:58:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (demumfd001.nsn-inter.net [93.183.12.32]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FA5F1A005C for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 06:58:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net ([10.150.129.55]) by demumfd001.nsn-inter.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id s4JDwJUk029179 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 May 2014 13:58:19 GMT Received: from DEMUHTC003.nsn-intra.net ([10.159.42.34]) by demuprx016.emea.nsn-intra.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id s4JDwIMi028627 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 May 2014 15:58:18 +0200 Received: from DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net ([169.254.5.67]) by DEMUHTC003.nsn-intra.net ([10.159.42.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0181.006; Mon, 19 May 2014 15:58:18 +0200 From: "Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich)" To: "ted.ietf@gmail.com" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: RTCWeb Interim meeting materials Thread-Index: Ac9zamJDUiO9/jxhQg+7yC/q0K8fzQ== Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 13:58:18 +0000 Message-ID: <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82FD24B@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.159.42.114] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82FD24BDEMUMBX005nsnintr_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-purgate-type: clean X-purgate-Ad: Categorized by eleven eXpurgate (R) http://www.eleven.de X-purgate: clean X-purgate: This mail is considered clean (visit http://www.eleven.de for further information) X-purgate-size: 1140 X-purgate-ID: 151667::1400507899-00001326-73CFCC90/0/0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/sZ3owhTZKAM2V6eaECHZClrB1Zk Subject: [rtcweb] RTCWeb Interim meeting materials X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 13:58:24 -0000 --_000_56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82FD24BDEMUMBX005nsnintr_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ted, May I ask you to share the location where to find the meeting materials? Thanks Uwe --_000_56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82FD24BDEMUMBX005nsnintr_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ted,
 
May I ask you to share the location where to find the meeting material= s?
 
Thanks Uwe
 
 
 
 --_000_56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82FD24BDEMUMBX005nsnintr_-- From nobody Mon May 19 07:08:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 693C91A005C for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 07:08:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hTwGw2OD5LO0 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 07:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x231.google.com (mail-wi0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::231]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D64D51A0015 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 07:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f177.google.com with SMTP id f8so4225827wiw.16 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 07:08:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :content-type:thread-index:content-language; bh=9ABQ1P2SxzXtMQNqhvEAVJvQITbxZOKtnBNCzPpbWys=; b=cvH2LmlRhvTct9noH0w/DXQa/QX9u30SI5UN4UpK28tv6o1MqQcvo/cBxjbLoyUEq2 Pr8m+yPJB1Zg4MwgHQ+L0rdJa1LEdx3G+Jzj9KjSf/GpzfCjeNtrTP3kFaNOGxlUtC8D VbmhZyPqVMbLQEvZYkcZgp8npeK4tQwBE7nMB/ZtlVAblSgprd1Ul2FKVxVCPV7SkJgY e0NE4EaQWa/StvVA+xBRp4kWF1VthGpWlKXtDbUMDjhnJlGOei8BcZQQzot22DJj3D5N YA9G7lMzdrU3h89whMFeoG8xlyazuX7oCKH77MHKRoyQh4Zve/IHsg7esGKpqXJ9ymAm hw8w== X-Received: by 10.180.8.40 with SMTP id o8mr13286073wia.25.1400508516634; Mon, 19 May 2014 07:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from RoniE ([109.67.104.144]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ch16sm14276339wjb.43.2014.05.19.07.08.34 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 19 May 2014 07:08:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roni Even" To: "'Rauschenbach, Uwe \(NSN - DE/Munich\)'" , , References: <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82FD24B@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> In-Reply-To: <56C2F665D49E0341B9DF5938005ACDF82FD24B@DEMUMBX005.nsn-intra.net> Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 17:08:31 +0300 Message-ID: <001801cf736b$d2625bb0$77271310$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01CF7384.F7B02FF0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQKYbqVXXRPTBWIe/Tx/SBTVtScKaZm1+lGA Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/kDwvVqaGLeJ4xO_pHZPYfpb0lCg Subject: Re: [rtcweb] RTCWeb Interim meeting materials X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 14:08:39 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01CF7384.F7B02FF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/interim/2014/05/19/rtcweb/proceedings.html From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich) Sent: 19 May, 2014 4:58 PM To: ted.ietf@gmail.com; rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: [rtcweb] RTCWeb Interim meeting materials Hi Ted, May I ask you to share the location where to find the meeting materials? Thanks Uwe ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01CF7384.F7B02FF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/interim/2014/05/19/rtcweb/proc= eedings.html

 

 

From:= = rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Rauschenbach, Uwe (NSN - DE/Munich)
Sent: 19 May, 2014 = 4:58 PM
To: ted.ietf@gmail.com; = rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: [rtcweb] RTCWeb Interim meeting = materials

 

Hi = Ted,

 =

May I ask = you to share the location where to find the meeting = materials?

 =

Thanks = Uwe

 =

 =

 =

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01CF7384.F7B02FF0-- From nobody Mon May 19 08:34:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6C2C1A01BD for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 08:33:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5D51K59pbdHF for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 08:33:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E26921A01A9 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 08:33:57 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f79ed6d000003d40-e5-537a246360e1 Received: from ESESSHC007.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id D6.C6.15680.3642A735; Mon, 19 May 2014 17:33:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.41) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.174.1; Mon, 19 May 2014 17:33:54 +0200 Message-ID: <537A2461.2020300@ericsson.com> Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 11:33:53 -0400 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Justin Uberti , "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrELMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvjW6ySlWwwfs/VhZbpwpZrP3Xzu7A 5LFgU6nHkiU/mQKYorhsUlJzMstSi/TtErgy1ux9xF7whb/ixv3ZbA2Md3m6GDk5JARMJK4s 62SHsMUkLtxbz9bFyMUhJHCUUWLq8R4mCGc5o8S7/oNsIFW8AtoSKzuXsoLYLAKqElMunAKz 2QQsJG7+aASrERUIltjw8C87RL2gxMmZT1hAbBEBb4mW9xMYuxg5OIQFNCQ6b9uDhIUEAiQ2 dl4Ha+UUCJR4s3ImE0iJhIC4RE9jEEiYWUBPYsrVFkYIW16ieetsZohWbYmGpg7WCYyCs5As m4WkZRaSlgWMzKsYRYtTi4tz042M9VKLMpOLi/Pz9PJSSzYxAgP14JbfujsYV792PMQowMGo xMO7ILUyWIg1say4MvcQozQHi5I4b6NMVbCQQHpiSWp2ampBalF8UWlOavEhRiYOTqkGxjms fap7H0pa3pnzJGa6oMxUlzWCPBfjkwJ9OP8FLnDq5Hn75LvVBfkt1xRmLZkueelqZ6Tahids ixVK5F5fu6jTEyqgWnOV98WhzNR1Z7MWzLx/9Ool670v7Or+9AsLXTk08+XXVUd2f25WibM2 bxSaMvn53CQ75kJHr4C/oexrJnP6H6qpf6vEUpyRaKjFXFScCADW8UlsNQIAAA== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/pE7EmDjwF-MTBoiLmpuCsnohb8o Subject: Re: [rtcweb] A proposal for FEC X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 15:34:00 -0000 On 2014-05-19 09:21, Justin Uberti wrote: > RFC 5109 defines a basic XOR-based scheme that should be useful in > certain cases (e.g. high RTT). The concern expressed today about this > not working in BUNDLE situations is addressed in RFC 5956, S 4.3 > , using ssrc-group to > allow SSRC multiplexing, and this is endorsed by Unified Plan, S 3.3 > . > > I would like to see ULPFEC/5109 move forward as a baseline FEC mechanism > for 1.0. We can look into other options for future versions of WebRTC. > I think adding ULPFEC in WebRTC is reasonable, however despite what RFC 5956 says, we do have a spec issue with the following part of RFC 5109 that will be required to be overridden: Section 7.2: Synchronization Source (SSRC): The SSRC value SHALL be the same as the SSRC value of the media stream it protects. Section 14.1: The SSRC of the FEC stream MUST be set to that of the protected payload stream. So the FEC stream and the payload stream SHOULD be sent through two separate RTP session, and multiplexing them by payload type into one single RTP session SHOULD be avoided. In addition, the FEC and the payload MUST NOT be multiplexed by SSRC into one single RTP session since they always have the same SSRC. >From my perspective this override should be done in a separate document so that also others can use it and not being RTCWEB specific. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Mon May 19 08:40:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D8FF1A01A6 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 08:40:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QhFV_H7N7S1G for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 08:40:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x230.google.com (mail-ie0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1AB421A014D for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 08:40:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f176.google.com with SMTP id rl12so2481102iec.35 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 08:40:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=neZ68xeRAW1HmhEuiOl3w6LvHvL27UZaVTNixjMhUC0=; b=vIY6lDsC8NnE3vOk5NY35Xeua0bXMangFaHFPp1uZ4denjreSTARkpUzDh0XJMcBuZ 8FRGeoD7fA+cOzW6Dd+5GphtHQQnC36P8LxZC/GVUcXip/GuPCIQfs6PR7iuZY0RdtxI muFk36fCU40S3vgzf18zeeZKdVUHqmSd2jD/IHQeFRXfJU5RToILviJrtkeo4hkz+GBP lqd7CaVgdhExzTWP40o06K9KJIY0m9LyjZA9nOHX+ROLZB69hYBwz8BqWYbXp4Ed/qNO gLrKAP6L6G3rik16LsnzMEwQVVHUwZQ7a2LaE9a4NNKFdTOpH3x3zyld2Rz4vCZalNWc UUyw== X-Received: by 10.42.139.136 with SMTP id g8mr2627269icu.96.1400514026621; Mon, 19 May 2014 08:40:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.50.230.38 with HTTP; Mon, 19 May 2014 08:40:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Varun Singh Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 18:40:04 +0300 Message-ID: To: Justin Uberti Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/zwXZC8ugHTGXZozsWHN1nLC2hIE Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] A proposal for FEC X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 15:40:33 -0000 On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Justin Uberti wrote: > RFC 5109 defines a basic XOR-based scheme that should be useful in certain > cases (e.g. high RTT). The concern expressed today about this not working in > BUNDLE situations is addressed in RFC 5956, S 4.3, using ssrc-group to allow > SSRC multiplexing, and this is endorsed by Unified Plan, S 3.3. > > I would like to see ULPFEC/5109 move forward as a baseline FEC mechanism for > 1.0. We can look into other options for future versions of WebRTC. I would like to +1 the use of FEC. There have been a couple of studies done on Google's congestion control algorithm, the results show the use of FEC. See Figure 5 in [1] shows the proportion of FEC and RETX at different latencies, and Table 2 in [2] shows that the use of FEC and RETX can be used as a error-resilience mechanism. Stefan Holmer from Google also published [3] which makes the case of FEC in WebRTC. Further, we have experimented with varying the amount of FEC to perform congestion control with promising results [4]. [1] Experimental Investigation of the Google Congestion Control for Real-Time Flows; L. De Cicco et al., http://c3lab.poliba.it/images/0/07/Webrtc_cc-Fhcmn2013.pdf [2] Performance Analysis of Receive-Side Real-Time Congestion Control for WebRTC; Singh et al., http://www.netlab.tkk.fi/~jo/papers/2013-12-pv-webrtc-cc.pdf [3] Handling Packet Loss in WebRTC, Holmer et al. http://static.googleusercontent.com/media/research.google.com/en//pubs/archive/41611.pdf [4] Congestion Control using FEC for Conversational Multimedia Communication; Nagy et al. http://www.netlab.tkk.fi/~varun/nagy2014mmsys.pdf From nobody Mon May 19 08:56:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75A1B1A0126 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 08:56:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gXP13_d4XBrt for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 08:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oa0-x22a.google.com (mail-oa0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c02::22a]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA1051A0117 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 08:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oa0-f42.google.com with SMTP id j17so6510665oag.29 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 08:55:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=9DiYsgXdtBmLbRP3zfwL3BV7AeImD1aVaDnvYJraMZE=; b=lRaLr8HXa+VncpVdAZ4JULDNKG3ERvuP68idcIl0zXL7w7bHoOFTR3v5MzQdFUzMoN mukbXVsa6eSJvXxovmwmdbMbrPQ8BWveNjuTseDfKdlJ8xm7q4Jsl8ZyT45zuRklvbek QQFNWBWnPQbEFr2xeAF9RqfWuxTmMbJJ/jScZ16pIfBO4x0BmaSypvUzNYIFWLt1jj8s tl6pGaSqsaXZs62Cwpw9PYyKcuOFOdtz65qR5ixLwbC9Y5ijjNjhjYeBp1IyQrFwEvKa 5zyWRmsYbWTPxZa8ll6Qn9diT+mQWjCDUZS9hgDkVj5KCRZeLiPPunH5XvMLDPvWGbzt 51lg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.243.138 with SMTP id wy10mr4011441obc.83.1400514958136; Mon, 19 May 2014 08:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.76.158.199 with HTTP; Mon, 19 May 2014 08:55:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5346AF0E.20500@alum.mit.edu> References: <20140409180350.13315.51677.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <53459BBB.1080505@alum.mit.edu> <5345B3EB.4050108@alum.mit.edu> <5346AF0E.20500@alum.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 08:55:58 -0700 Message-ID: From: Jim Spring To: Paul Kyzivat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2a120951c9c04f9c2cc73 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/lFIf_A3n2Gz5egXXeze7rRcgHa8 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn-00.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 15:56:00 -0000 --001a11c2a120951c9c04f9c2cc73 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 >From the text -- -- The following four labels are defined for use in ALPN: webrtc The DTLS session is used to establish keys for a Secure Real- time Transport Protocol (SRTP) - known as DTLS-SRTP - as described in [RFC5764]. The DTLS record layer is used for WebRTC data channels [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-data-channel]. c-webrtc The DTLS session is used for confidential WebRTC communications, where peers agree to maintain the confidentiality of the communications, as described in Section 3. A more thorough definition of what WebRTC communications entail is included in [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-transports]. -- I see only two labels there. On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 7:47 AM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: > On 4/9/14 5:25 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: > >> On 9 April 2014 13:56, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >> >>> I expect two different protocols to look different on the wire. >>> >>> You seem to be saying that SMTP used to talk to ietf mailing lists is a >>> different protocol from SMTP used to talk to my lawyer, because I expect >>> my >>> lawyer to keep the communications confidential. >>> >> >> They are different on the wire. They use different identifiers. >> >> That's hair splitting, but there's a real difference between the two >> usages. And I think that it's important enough to do this. >> >> Do you perhaps have an alternative, or is it just that this lack of >> solidity is giving you heartburn? Because I can appreciate that. >> > > Heartburn. > > It seems like a hack - tunneling - just looking for *something* that can > be used to convey one more bit of data. > > I don't have another suggestion. I only half understand the problem. But > to the extent that I do, it seems ill-defined. AFAIK it only really has > meaning in the context of a browser. Once you start signaling it, it gets > fuzzier. If you *knew* both ends were controlled by a browser following > these conventions then it would be a bit clearer. But when that ceases to > be true I can make no sense of what it all means. And as best I understand, > the isolation is intended to be per-media-stream, so solutions that are at > a different level seem problematic. > > Thanks, > Paul > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --001a11c2a120951c9c04f9c2cc73 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From the text --

--
=09 =09 =09 
   The follow=
ing four labels are defined for use in ALPN:

   webrtc  Th=
e DTLS session is used to establish keys for a Secure Real-
      time Transport Protocol (SRTP) - known as DTLS-SRTP - as described
      in [RFC5764].  The DTLS record layer is used for WebRTC data
      channels [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-data-channel].

   c-webrtc  =
The DTLS session is used for confidential WebRTC
      communication=
s, where peers agree to maintain the confidentiality
      of the communications, as described in Section 3.

   A more tho=
rough definition of what WebRTC communications entail is
   included in [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-transports].

--
I see=
 only two labels there.


On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 7:47 AM, Paul Kyzivat <= pkyzivat@alum.mi= t.edu> wrote:
On 4/9/14 5:25 PM, Martin Th= omson wrote:
On 9 April 2014 13:56, Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
I expect two different protocols to look different on the wire.

You seem to be saying that SMTP used to talk to ietf mailing lists is a
different protocol from SMTP used to talk to my lawyer, because I expect my=
lawyer to keep the communications confidential.

They are different on the wire. =C2=A0They use different identifiers.

That's hair splitting, but there's a real difference between the tw= o
usages. =C2=A0And I think that it's important enough to do this.

Do you perhaps have an alternative, or is it just that this lack of
solidity is giving you heartburn? =C2=A0Because I can appreciate that.

Heartburn.

It seems like a hack - tunneling - just looking for *something* that can be= used to convey one more bit of data.

I don't have another suggestion. I only half understand the problem. Bu= t to the extent that I do, it seems ill-defined. AFAIK it only really has m= eaning in the context of a browser. Once you start signaling it, it gets fu= zzier. If you *knew* both ends were controlled by a browser following these= conventions then it would be a bit clearer. But when that ceases to be tru= e I can make no sense of what it all means. And as best I understand, the i= solation is intended to be per-media-stream, so solutions that are at a dif= ferent level seem problematic.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Paul

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

--001a11c2a120951c9c04f9c2cc73-- From nobody Mon May 19 08:58:12 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7D8F1A016E for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 08:58:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QQ29gaha3hEa for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 08:58:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yh0-x22f.google.com (mail-yh0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c01::22f]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6977F1A0104 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 08:58:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yh0-f47.google.com with SMTP id z6so6929080yhz.20 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 08:58:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=hl1EDKgJUq/6dpbYtTPYifuUmc9LMa4m08ewPisl2gE=; b=fKSybeJG0NWftyZfO0Ixr0hs2VWiBgQW5V34TdKpb8ueVUYCVDc67KniqCPIp54wMe sawv80DhYPQuQWb3XZsEZYsN8nhQ8TuZp/Gxxk0pIjcqxNriu5gRRQceOD7uQ8NUiAIZ LwkfqiGCfZSWZtLPTZxJWfbR0B+uoMhc9cqtgm7zjq+AzrrIK4y+Flasp663+RxcbT09 jXHIKGYyRJDTuuSLcl0HImeARnGu33CD2IkwJfo7Fd8eOkb4VzyZFFI1NLAXIUtnvmPF o4LUNIvni6/z9pF/0gk0hqkMGQrRqHPTa0hKniIHlJU9ybhMExKzP0U1TTCMEHHKT1nu 2kYg== X-Received: by 10.236.128.180 with SMTP id f40mr53412400yhi.71.1400515088824; Mon, 19 May 2014 08:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.144.131] ([216.239.55.62]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id u21sm25601447yhb.51.2014.05.19.08.58.07 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 19 May 2014 08:58:07 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Bernard Aboba X-Mailer: iPad Mail (11D201) In-Reply-To: <537A2461.2020300@ericsson.com> Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 11:58:06 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <537A2461.2020300@ericsson.com> To: Magnus Westerlund Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/-fn5jZbilpdpE3s2aqeaT961HNw Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] A proposal for FEC X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 15:58:10 -0000 >=20 > On May 19, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >=20 > I think adding ULPFEC in WebRTC is reasonable, however despite what RFC > 5956 says, we do have a spec issue with the following part of RFC 5109 > that will be required to be overridden: >=20 > Section 7.2: >=20 > Synchronization Source (SSRC): The SSRC value SHALL be the same as > the SSRC value of the media stream it protects. >=20 > Section 14.1: >=20 > The SSRC of the FEC stream MUST > be set to that of the protected payload stream. >=20 > So the FEC > stream and the payload stream SHOULD be sent through two separate RTP > session, and multiplexing them by payload type into one single RTP > session SHOULD be avoided. In addition, the FEC and the payload MUST > NOT be multiplexed by SSRC into one single RTP session since they > always have the same SSRC. >=20 >> =46rom my perspective this override should be done in a separate document= > so that also others can use it and not being RTCWEB specific. The following draft accomplishes this, no? http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lennox-payload-ulp-ssrc-mux= From nobody Mon May 19 09:00:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D58AE1A0192 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 09:00:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c0aVXPn6n1uu for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 09:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98C001A0104 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 09:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.66] (76-218-8-156.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net [76.218.8.156]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id s4JFxv7w004350 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 19 May 2014 09:00:02 -0700 Message-ID: <537A2A65.6070606@dcrocker.net> Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 08:59:33 -0700 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: <9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA5C7EB70A@AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com> In-Reply-To: <9904FB1B0159DA42B0B887B7FA8119CA5C7EB70A@AZ-FFEXMB04.global.avaya.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Mon, 19 May 2014 09:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/7VDBfEFLxvNNuYewEcf8Enk9PaI Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Remote participation for RTCWEB Interim X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 16:00:09 -0000 On 5/19/2014 5:46 AM, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote: > Hangouts does not seem to work – I get a This party is over... message > and there is at least one more remote participant in the same situation. I first got that, too. Turns out that I needed to log into google with exactly the email address that the invitation was sent to. Seems to work fine now. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nobody Mon May 19 09:01:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DA471A0104 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 09:01:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7wZumQEKNvLW for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 09:01:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72BB61A0116 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 09:01:32 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-f79746d000006fe2-ba-537a2ada7607 Received: from ESESSHC024.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 46.A9.28642.ADA2A735; Mon, 19 May 2014 18:01:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.92) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.174.1; Mon, 19 May 2014 18:01:29 +0200 Message-ID: <537A2AD7.1090209@ericsson.com> Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 12:01:27 -0400 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bernard Aboba References: <537A2461.2020300@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrBLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje4trapgg/vXdS027PvPbLF1qpDF 2n/t7A7MHjtn3WX3WLCp1GPJkp9MAcxRXDYpqTmZZalF+nYJXBl9l2YyFizgr3g7W7yBcRpP FyMnh4SAicSLzdvZIGwxiQv31gPZXBxCAkcZJfq3vmSEcJYzSqzs/MAMUsUroC2x6McLRhCb RUBVYtneC2BxNgELiZs/GsEmiQoES2x4+Jcdol5Q4uTMJywgtghQb9+3fUwgNrOAt8SnRQ+A ajg4hAU0JDpv20PsWsgo8eLjfrAaTgFbicUfrzOD1EgIiEv0NAZBtOpJTLnawghhy0s0b50N doIQ0PiGpg7WCYxCs5BsnoWkZRaSlgWMzKsYRYtTi4tz042M9FKLMpOLi/Pz9PJSSzYxAoP6 4JbfVjsYDz53PMQowMGoxMO7ILUyWIg1say4MvcQozQHi5I4r49MVbCQQHpiSWp2ampBalF8 UWlOavEhRiYOTqkGRin2nqYKrTb+lrO8DbsSU2pPO15otGuPral69IgviinKvSj3hWzVvzct ig6mU75UW0gEN3gJPPu8cN57n6VmOn6+ii5hhnfirjO1/j11xqnk5QJG95VPf2xs527pXLxB 4faS31X2rh+k4zP8CkxMO1TtPT+33nhVr/r8PF9w3ZWlua/aTz5TYinOSDTUYi4qTgQAMn4R OksCAAA= Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/DQOqv01B5KnfeRLx4-Wj4nYAHyU Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] A proposal for FEC X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 16:01:37 -0000 On 2014-05-19 11:58, Bernard Aboba wrote: >> >> On May 19, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >> >> I think adding ULPFEC in WebRTC is reasonable, however despite what RFC >> 5956 says, we do have a spec issue with the following part of RFC 5109 >> that will be required to be overridden: >> >> Section 7.2: >> >> Synchronization Source (SSRC): The SSRC value SHALL be the same as >> the SSRC value of the media stream it protects. >> >> Section 14.1: >> >> The SSRC of the FEC stream MUST >> be set to that of the protected payload stream. >> >> So the FEC >> stream and the payload stream SHOULD be sent through two separate RTP >> session, and multiplexing them by payload type into one single RTP >> session SHOULD be avoided. In addition, the FEC and the payload MUST >> NOT be multiplexed by SSRC into one single RTP session since they >> always have the same SSRC. >> >>> From my perspective this override should be done in a separate document >> so that also others can use it and not being RTCWEB specific. > > The following draft accomplishes this, no? > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lennox-payload-ulp-ssrc-mux > Yes, but it needs some updates and polishing before ready for publication. Also, it has not been adopted yet in any WG. But, I think adopting it and getting it moved forward in an expedited fashion would be the right way forward. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Mon May 19 09:38:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949E01A0102 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 09:38:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.029 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.029 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O_fQq-INlcNN for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 09:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x232.google.com (mail-vc0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c03::232]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 462201A014D for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 09:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f178.google.com with SMTP id hq16so9760580vcb.23 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 09:38:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=K34yDxdgvlqXkqIe3KDybAebyHR5plZSx1JH49zu2g4=; b=hBAmCUogO989T4DzgE1SDY0pjoflHWXKXfRshKaeTKUqJ9ivFDor8A4OPb5rswLtkb MWsrKpG5KkUv/SgvlY86jjjhhGh00nJTxt7pF+GiUpuK6mg5iXiIzTqnITL5EzKvgMmG lZLtOY/dg1k2ePCG5xfW0Mctbrppa3PsIIgfilD2/AsfebRS81Rd2ggxfEWKjslUwi03 GDSjv9/rKc4YqslsUOf/eOZOhmVEvNPyw7SRTGIknE3yC8dWfJgnr26JsdOZR++FanKV g7iBS2SsbOsI4itRS73v6VMtwXSa8/vP1wHZj/efii/2U0TyXMfXjUlAiadwAfucMv2A pz2Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=K34yDxdgvlqXkqIe3KDybAebyHR5plZSx1JH49zu2g4=; b=PTMz9VUWGSlnfoBIMn3TKonDd2SLz0xfzvlrTEH8CrKi+VxpNkpA60iHBShx5H7Div oJH85CG3ChZXmzfdlDh7RcWEQSsTDN3zcOIzjQEmvnJZTykDtvQz5MWEdG46wvIZT2/g kB5dnowxY/ZrZyjelcAB5reUSYqssvjnnxZJY3N+zbPRkRk5BNZUtuqB+xelEZXTBiVh ViKUBQzUZCqJsqEJfA7syi1uPLeRem3HaTW+XxzP8Y0owrs1zAhK4P8Dda6UUR1YBbKs GPKRDy/SpZVgGQZvEi1q+y9mcfFm89NYbkoWMl5DRiarFC7H3Mml7EbXjUTFQIYHMolM dDfQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQntlShbEf9wxy/sOh6HtOyE0pLm1fp8XRn2urdDnCecCIo/Xu53T9fTU94BCfPALfH88wbh X-Received: by 10.220.250.203 with SMTP id mp11mr15611932vcb.2.1400517492416; Mon, 19 May 2014 09:38:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.145.105 with HTTP; Mon, 19 May 2014 09:37:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <537A2AD7.1090209@ericsson.com> References: <537A2461.2020300@ericsson.com> <537A2AD7.1090209@ericsson.com> From: Justin Uberti Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 09:37:52 -0700 Message-ID: To: Magnus Westerlund Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013d0502a3397b04f9c36379 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/xPoRGlvf-jLRKB4gjAC6wb4dtE4 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] A proposal for FEC X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 16:38:16 -0000 --089e013d0502a3397b04f9c36379 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sounds like a plan. On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Magnus Westerlund < magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote: > On 2014-05-19 11:58, Bernard Aboba wrote: > >> > >> On May 19, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Magnus Westerlund < > magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote: > >> > >> I think adding ULPFEC in WebRTC is reasonable, however despite what RF= C > >> 5956 says, we do have a spec issue with the following part of RFC 5109 > >> that will be required to be overridden: > >> > >> Section 7.2: > >> > >> Synchronization Source (SSRC): The SSRC value SHALL be the same as > >> the SSRC value of the media stream it protects. > >> > >> Section 14.1: > >> > >> The SSRC of the FEC stream MUST > >> be set to that of the protected payload stream. > >> > >> So the FEC > >> stream and the payload stream SHOULD be sent through two separate RT= P > >> session, and multiplexing them by payload type into one single RTP > >> session SHOULD be avoided. In addition, the FEC and the payload MUS= T > >> NOT be multiplexed by SSRC into one single RTP session since they > >> always have the same SSRC. > >> > >>> From my perspective this override should be done in a separate docume= nt > >> so that also others can use it and not being RTCWEB specific. > > > > The following draft accomplishes this, no? > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lennox-payload-ulp-ssrc-mux > > > > Yes, but it needs some updates and polishing before ready for > publication. Also, it has not been adopted yet in any WG. But, I think > adopting it and getting it moved forward in an expedited fashion would > be the right way forward. > > Cheers > > Magnus Westerlund > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > F=C3=A4r=C3=B6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --089e013d0502a3397b04f9c36379 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sounds like a plan.




On Mon, May 19, = 2014 at 9:01 AM, Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsso= n.com> wrote:
On 2= 014-05-19 11:58, Bernard Aboba wrote:
>>
>> On May 19, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> = wrote:
>>
>> I think adding ULPFEC in WebRTC is reasonable, however despite wha= t RFC
>> 5956 says, we do have a spec issue with the following part of RFC = 5109
>> that will be required to be overridden:
>>
>> Section 7.2:
>>
>> =C2=A0 Synchronization Source (SSRC): The SSRC value SHALL be the = same as
>> =C2=A0 the SSRC value of the media stream it protects.
>>
>> Section 14.1:
>>
>> =C2=A0 The SSRC of the FEC stream MUST
>> =C2=A0 be set to that of the protected payload stream.
>>
>> =C2=A0 So the FEC
>> =C2=A0 stream and the payload stream SHOULD be sent through two se= parate RTP
>> =C2=A0 session, and multiplexing them by payload type into one sin= gle RTP
>> =C2=A0 session SHOULD be avoided. =C2=A0In addition, the FEC and t= he payload MUST
>> =C2=A0 NOT be multiplexed by SSRC into one single RTP session sinc= e they
>> =C2=A0 always have the same SSRC.
>>
>>> From my perspective this override should be done in a separate= document
>> so that also others can use it and not being RTCWEB specific.
>
> The following draft accomplishes this, no?
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lennox-payload-ulp-ss= rc-mux
>

Yes, but it needs some updates and polishing before ready for publication. Also, it has not been adopted yet in any WG. But, I think
adopting it and getting it moved forward in an expedited fashion would
be the right way forward.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | Phone= =C2=A0+46 10 7= 148287
F=C3=A4r=C3=B6gatan 6 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 | Mobile +4= 6 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


--089e013d0502a3397b04f9c36379-- From nobody Mon May 19 09:44:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C1E11A0104 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 09:44:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.029 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.029 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EkBz5UBTCbJL for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 09:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x22f.google.com (mail-vc0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22f]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0AE031A0102 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 09:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f175.google.com with SMTP id hu19so9766518vcb.20 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 09:44:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=WQobyk7lQdajg7g+8QiXZ/tjf3L/hBZD83C7QRz+CYQ=; b=KzteDmMpikcPtRIscUCABhWEB2q3ZzpRzgMJE/V2jB6BgE6FwoiAKEMz9IGpVIEIGD 4tbPg8TkZeveTTnAAC8h0Qmuuhqe2tODWQkje0dZwuD9N3MGBmtOpvfnJQjMOxEVtQ0d MOEdGV019W8K47v59S5KDdiSSQypGjX7sJ1FdVGedwGwaFwnQMhSgw6qJAaoHtDP7zgn 5vi1mxUmSuvdxG9wY5hO58eOUV8R0Zz7N7ICa9GjZ9N05Ixeef2v/Xf+JvKT89vSxtzJ IhJXJSa2xpA3OMkDShPBpGutVRP0L+xZTouOt05A5otkxh0YwOHe2WwdC87EyCps0lw+ Ex7Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=WQobyk7lQdajg7g+8QiXZ/tjf3L/hBZD83C7QRz+CYQ=; b=Oh2asZ9do9Oocho0g2nWJ5893Ro2bPDKRJDXD7dtPipEaqmfSsNVva8JupoM1UalcR GioUQQGktNWRcS7R/R1UVbSq4hzN0Dw4DuRDsW7zciOGP6U19+bjDSMS/PqyvZ+wxBd5 FZOsTju/ZVC3Ie8gwUIVEZ23vooB8z7UPRBNUYDH55niI9Q+L53HnNETLgv9StVUHpdF tcr/bNiUh4osLARNY98l5+9OKntqR9rtbDZ7QeDPsERZktrgGe5ZsFV/ocJl3YS8QRri kjWfOKaE3iI6jfUnRCat9yV+eXQWI7PxBpVeV2MMrYkY4SDI8BSeMpV36NS3FgC4vGkI 6U4A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkZdeIlgBEZPj94tJ2eJSvczun2FwrRetgNKtb3p9PbB3ZppQvwCem+QleIfVGhIU67yYpO X-Received: by 10.52.93.132 with SMTP id cu4mr1132926vdb.76.1400517885348; Mon, 19 May 2014 09:44:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.145.105 with HTTP; Mon, 19 May 2014 09:44:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Justin Uberti Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 09:44:25 -0700 Message-ID: To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bd6c4a80ee82e04f9c37b88 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/U7OO9NLOxYPpvcIgMNJrNrPQZCU Subject: [rtcweb] FEC for audio? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 16:44:47 -0000 --047d7bd6c4a80ee82e04f9c37b88 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Should we specify generic FEC for audio as well as video? Opus has built-in FEC, but it only works for the SILK portion of the payload, meaning that in high bitrate situations, it won't do much for you. I don't know if it has benefits over generic FEC. Some application providers have mentioned that FEC helps with audio intelligibility on cellular networks, so I think this is important to support. --047d7bd6c4a80ee82e04f9c37b88 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Should we specify generic FEC for audio as well as video? = Opus has built-in FEC, but it only works for the SILK portion of the payloa= d, meaning that in high bitrate situations, it won't do much for you. I= don't know if it has benefits over generic FEC.

Some application providers have mentioned that FEC helps wit= h audio intelligibility on cellular networks, so I think this is important = to support.
--047d7bd6c4a80ee82e04f9c37b88-- From nobody Mon May 19 10:41:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E2FB1A0193 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 10:41:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C11igcYvoEA1 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 10:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x235.google.com (mail-wi0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4CA01A0140 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 10:41:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f181.google.com with SMTP id n15so4613504wiw.14 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 10:41:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=pxOhCpDayzfAkyKdDcXi2fD7OrIM2HK98quSVIZRKX4=; b=jidHCDyslKdfvPkRO+YDEC0uzQ66Tuvgo2lL0GVuiLp/wNyVmNLgS+UApNWeimzNEi nSTpdGd35ne3acGzJ5EirCQroB8tFRwvWrpwYRl/OR7JCnzmS1Mb2dUL76SdKGMBYGXT yV3jY/I/Q4HQVnxmuOIBnT1DGJQCSS25+NEHeOmW3MNVgtGNpQMJ81fhUQwyV486UhC1 9JZuNLaGqpD1JYfqpBxv4G8yNPSBefYZRYgfmkGZ7qoTn9HVmRmQPnfUFt0DzBybTReO U3tjUNV5caBBUgc7xr9WvFpaN/K+EUinNVnrqh3Q1qTek3Pzb8dxyU9s7qCNiNrXdcUM 1wLA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.195.18.8 with SMTP id gi8mr3735507wjd.75.1400521286493; Mon, 19 May 2014 10:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.235.163 with HTTP; Mon, 19 May 2014 10:41:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20140409180350.13315.51677.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <53459BBB.1080505@alum.mit.edu> <5345B3EB.4050108@alum.mit.edu> <5346AF0E.20500@alum.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 10:41:26 -0700 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Jim Spring Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/BNu6nC-vvsvRtAyB9DZhHmU2Hok Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn-00.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 17:41:29 -0000 On 19 May 2014 08:55, Jim Spring wrote: > I see only two labels there. That's an artifact of it being an -00 draft. That's been fixed in my copy, but I didn't think it worth a new revision. The near-latest copy is here: http://martinthomson.github.io/drafts/draft-thomson-rtcweb-alpn.html From nobody Mon May 19 12:15:17 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A5E01A0104 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 12:15:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.029 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.029 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Va9VVPoiKOyO for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 12:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pb0-x235.google.com (mail-pb0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA1281A0156 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 12:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pb0-f53.google.com with SMTP id md12so6273744pbc.40 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 12:15:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=6PPMtETHU3y7wRfPUo4rmERM/+jpHmpaXSUVksEax+M=; b=eilRqT2inZZv9DfbzdiYIRTiJjJiapwfLeGpmfPnzi368AkLwB8Yn48ecY5/KJhOVm XJ3YkRc9UlTc8+TwXupM2zHbxNbnS0n3rAyuzPfPhhxIpTEbuFtqezIT+FCPiXcTNiZ5 x4LKSEvEXPRYBpsOCAnF03iMvxbFZD/uKuSrTlFU/NdFbM95mcM2wGkcpuQcCV+/rBQF 1OJVEUC4YfU20A4+phOETZzqQf9CD9I/IKPy1BBf20RCdpj59wfwx2eWIbwjV/cMpgwF t9bwPrQI8QN7qVZA0MGbGuKDeKH8suAkSTeT2zxBHgv7Xs7S3qDMxZYcoARrAAf+WskW RClg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=6PPMtETHU3y7wRfPUo4rmERM/+jpHmpaXSUVksEax+M=; b=btu0OLWbcYuNiKnxW6eqCMtASx+FICXsnXxatx3WBLa3gnC+vZzBC3nZI2tAhn4V2L htT4tuZSzX1mgsNNxtsZTrhbUnfHMV0F4JJP7okj0xA4WliSNQHAzf4CJRtgG6pFQwpZ aFMOIGZnVUMj1uheZpw2jH6hdjNwmJauyTqb78dbj0rqcthvmQTze8kBHAJL/CSqUdYw JLL+EORqWuNce6FzEV4P8KJrJRN9QvvcLD/CUWolMe/lEq7E34kbRkdxKj9w2GWOTjeB Uud/3UxpYgct56EYj0Ajqi9iR0yf/GvmGm/2WXAVfz7NeLcsHAjRndVxP5xu5Ol089Sw JIeA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnQERgBp+N9BS5d37pnj7IhfUI32jBM1y9PosLNMyWNt3NHOpoR2hdUiTNK/rJT0XhbGH1Y X-Received: by 10.68.173.65 with SMTP id bi1mr45145546pbc.130.1400526912530; Mon, 19 May 2014 12:15:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.66.163.226 with HTTP; Mon, 19 May 2014 12:14:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Peter Thatcher Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 12:14:32 -0700 Message-ID: To: Justin Uberti Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b3a99d81ec94d04f9c5950a Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/YttSodpuk-SgIrNpoqtsvDhqSqI Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] FEC for audio? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 19:15:14 -0000 --047d7b3a99d81ec94d04f9c5950a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 If we're already designing and implementing FEC for video, it seems like a small step to also support it for audio. I find the use case for high-bitrate audio use compelling. As an app, if I want to spend lots of bits for really high-quality audio, I'd like the option to make sure FEC is still enabled; I'm perhaps willing to spend the bits on it. Is there a good reason not to support FEC for audio, if that's what the application wants? On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Justin Uberti wrote: > Should we specify generic FEC for audio as well as video? Opus has > built-in FEC, but it only works for the SILK portion of the payload, > meaning that in high bitrate situations, it won't do much for you. I don't > know if it has benefits over generic FEC. > > Some application providers have mentioned that FEC helps with audio > intelligibility on cellular networks, so I think this is important to > support. > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > --047d7b3a99d81ec94d04f9c5950a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If we're already designing and implementing FEC for video, = it seems like a small step to also support it for audio. =C2=A0I find the u= se case for high-bitrate audio use compelling. =C2=A0As an app, if I want t= o spend lots of bits for really high-quality audio, I'd like the option= to make sure FEC is still enabled; I'm perhaps willing to spend the bi= ts on it.

<= /div>
= Is there a good reason not to support FEC for audio, if that's what the= application wants?=C2=A0


On Mon,= May 19, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com> wrote:
Should we specify generic F= EC for audio as well as video? Opus has built-in FEC, but it only works for= the SILK portion of the payload, meaning that in high bitrate situations, = it won't do much for you. I don't know if it has benefits over gene= ric FEC.

Some application providers have mentioned that FEC helps wit= h audio intelligibility on cellular networks, so I think this is important = to support.

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


--047d7b3a99d81ec94d04f9c5950a-- From nobody Mon May 19 12:56:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E8B81A03E0 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 12:56:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.929 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.929 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, HOST_MISMATCH_COM=0.311, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E4N_BvEag342 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 12:56:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.mozilla.org (mx1.corp.phx1.mozilla.com [63.245.216.69]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E55EF1A03BC for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 12:55:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.252.26.16] (corp.mtv2.mozilla.com [63.245.221.32]) (Authenticated sender: tterriberry@mozilla.com) by mx1.mail.corp.phx1.mozilla.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4B19EF214D for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 12:55:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <537A6190.4060709@mozilla.com> Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 12:54:56 -0700 From: "Timothy B. Terriberry" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:19.0) Gecko/20100101 SeaMonkey/2.16.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/6nt-GzrITmk50cgxtxhA3MM5H0Q Subject: Re: [rtcweb] FEC for audio? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 19:56:50 -0000 Peter Thatcher wrote: > Is there a good reason not to support FEC for audio, if that's what the > application wants? I can't think of one. I think we should support FEC for audio. > On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Justin Uberti > wrote: > Should we specify generic FEC for audio as well as video? Opus has > built-in FEC, but it only works for the SILK portion of the payload, > meaning that in high bitrate situations, it won't do much for you. I > don't know if it has benefits over generic FEC. The built-in FEC for the SILK layer was meant to cover the case where you wanted FEC with no more than one extra frame of latency, but did not want to double your bitrate. The reason we did not add built-in FEC for the CELT layer was that at the bitrates where CELT operates, we assumed traditional codec-agnostic FEC would be used, and thought it an adequate solution compared to the extra complexity a codec-specific solution would have required. From nobody Mon May 19 13:56:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C33D1A041C for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 13:56:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KmP_a2x9SRyR for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 13:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C30241A040F for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 13:56:37 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-f79226d000004024-68-537a700381a7 Received: from ESESSHC012.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id B2.69.16420.3007A735; Mon, 19 May 2014 22:56:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.174.1; Mon, 19 May 2014 22:56:35 +0200 Message-ID: <537A6A0B.5080903@ericsson.com> Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 16:31:07 -0400 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmpgluLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGfG3Rpe5oCrY4PgmU4u1/9rZHRg9liz5 yRTAGMVlk5Kak1mWWqRvl8CVsXaSW8EProqOf38ZGxgvcnQxcnBICJhI/Fyo3cXICWSKSVy4 t56ti5GLQ0jgKKPEl96ZLBDOckaJDe9PsoM08ApoSzx8mwDSwCKgKjF1WQMjiM0mYCFx80cj G4gtKhAsseHhX3YQm1dAUOLkzCcsILaIgLrE5YcXwOLCAjYSR6d+Zoe4QVyipzEIJMwsoCcx 5WoLI4QtL9G8dTYziC0EtLWhqYN1AiP/LCRTZyFpmYWkZQEj8ypG0eLU4qTcdCNjvdSizOTi 4vw8vbzUkk2MwCA7uOW36g7Gy28cDzEKcDAq8fAucKsKFmJNLCuuzD3EKM3BoiTOKyMDFBJI TyxJzU5NLUgtii8qzUktPsTIxMEp1cDI3X6Dbf36r6eflXSLOr5rFJ49Uc24Xaswf+r90HmL 6wKXmu6dMGHtHR7OrAnfrpwReSslpnki7mep7s2b6uJaYUozj3OlPTolcN3q++sn844aOJqb dnTleuxgmrVEvN4oLNK0/+XO186aSx6u+3H6d6VkkvlRzn8ryvkZo3Tm5CdlrDr6UfacEktx RqKhFnNRcSIAg2SHtRMCAAA= Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/QsQrWQt1mJo1CShVa9Vbx4l9jyE Subject: [rtcweb] draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage: Signalling requirement X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 20:56:39 -0000 Hi, Based on today's discussion regarding signalling requirements and Cullen's motivation for why he like to have signalling mandated to follow I have drafted a text proposal: So this is the text for Section 10: RTP Extensions: The use of any additional RTP header extensions and RTCP packet types, including any necessary parameters, MUST be signalled. This signalling is to ensure that a WebRTC endpoint's behaviour when it comes to usage, especially sending, of any extensions are predictable and consistent. For robustness, and for compatibility with non-WebRTC systems that might be connected to a WebRTC session via a gateway, implementations are REQUIRED to ignore unknown RTCP packets and RTP header extensions (see also Section 4.1). So please consider this and comment if this is acceptable or you see an issue with it. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Mon May 19 14:36:28 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B46671A018D for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 14:36:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.029 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.029 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9RnnJfNYE4pu for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 14:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-x232.google.com (mail-ve0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c01::232]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 503F21A0176 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 14:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ve0-f178.google.com with SMTP id sa20so7327484veb.9 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 14:36:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=kZOm/o6hjOaDzbK6exusy+6pn6E3zMjOnYk9nVoeLiU=; b=MiJDpOJR8fkD0hAJqwP2mhfZy6ytQqBVzlzo0buXFC9DoIJp/xLB69P6He7jUrE0Xl +EYCG4433PyjVwY0leoe0O6Lp1rPx4B0u4UIynoAN9rx13VA7pJKJjinwLNAGQ1RCZAO hWvEI57r7wAopvLNOeSBdpCNo+B/2R3k/0wN/4vuquFwlVRn7T1t0Af69JGq7z/PHP4U RLrJkNfkXTjqFwL1BnjxYPMM8/YKWfYB4KMoazrCL4D0TEAQBN2VNElYmq49m9hcQnhH fN90F869ryJ+su/nMh75ocCUJA7PsmwmBpQZo2uMHe+njt1ef4EFGbdbNnrqahqepEou Oqow== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=kZOm/o6hjOaDzbK6exusy+6pn6E3zMjOnYk9nVoeLiU=; b=Fk4OnfagR5Ux6NAJyIAGy7Ip9IgTpbFO9AmcsiWl10MVG9hwJZyT9HcimK9c98qqLa uqPuQkdgXVGWp/e6zk7M3W9NwMooC2uUWfsvfp4QMR3Me6f85owJszgj89W3HyzNJOH8 HaVEfulwqrbZzpEQ4Y+aH4NC8x+nZ4qOr/Q8Di0eacbnorLAy39RK2khQ+BvVOdAHw4Z 86KEBbAdedISU1LNW/MQWj8hTD4OrNwMghQQAoErT8CHP2T8jNl9GKcpafidp0JaxHiQ A9x1k95mkrNt0oFpKVAEZPs4qvovG6Yan2MRNA3hI+/Xdlvg9YSvp3M+vBrc/O4rvo7A k82Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmzLub89NO4gwUi+ovtCWHWPdn9kWcG9hMejF2zQOst5ln/7LtXmNDPPMr2xLaQfhSaywOu X-Received: by 10.58.195.202 with SMTP id ig10mr21109011vec.33.1400535384445; Mon, 19 May 2014 14:36:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.145.105 with HTTP; Mon, 19 May 2014 14:36:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <537A6190.4060709@mozilla.com> References: <537A6190.4060709@mozilla.com> From: Justin Uberti Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 14:36:04 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Timothy B. Terriberry" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b66fce715fa1404f9c78efa Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/SE1oGNeQFuk7nUV-e7TLYn25Kz4 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] FEC for audio? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 21:36:26 -0000 --047d7b66fce715fa1404f9c78efa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 12:54 PM, Timothy B. Terriberry < tterriberry@mozilla.com> wrote: > Peter Thatcher wrote: > >> Is there a good reason not to support FEC for audio, if that's what the >> application wants? >> > > I can't think of one. I think we should support FEC for audio. > > On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Justin Uberti > > wrote: >> Should we specify generic FEC for audio as well as video? Opus has >> built-in FEC, but it only works for the SILK portion of the payload, >> meaning that in high bitrate situations, it won't do much for you. I >> don't know if it has benefits over generic FEC. >> > > The built-in FEC for the SILK layer was meant to cover the case where you > wanted FEC with no more than one extra frame of latency, but did not want > to double your bitrate. The reason we did not add built-in FEC for the CELT > layer was that at the bitrates where CELT operates, we assumed traditional > codec-agnostic FEC would be used, and thought it an adequate solution > compared to the extra complexity a codec-specific solution would have > required. > > Thanks, that's very helpful. This means that if the app says "do FEC", and the remote side supports opus inband FEC, and the data rate is < XX kbps, we'll use the inband FEC instead of generic FEC. --047d7b66fce715fa1404f9c78efa Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 12:54 PM, Timothy B. Terriberry <t= terriberry@mozilla.com> wrote:
Peter Thatcher wrote:
Is there a good reason not to support FEC for audio, if that's what the=
application wants?

I can't think of one. I think we should support FEC for audio.

On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com
<mailto:juberti@= google.com>> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Should we specify generic FEC for audio as well as video? Opu= s has
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 built-in FEC, but it only works for the SILK portion of the p= ayload,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 meaning that in high bitrate situations, it won't do much= for you. I
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 don't know if it has benefits over generic FEC.

The built-in FEC for the SILK layer was meant to cover the case where you w= anted FEC with no more than one extra frame of latency, but did not want to= double your bitrate. The reason we did not add built-in FEC for the CELT l= ayer was that at the bitrates where CELT operates, we assumed traditional c= odec-agnostic FEC would be used, and thought it an adequate solution compar= ed to the extra complexity a codec-specific solution would have required.


Thanks, = that's very helpful. This means that if the app says "do FEC"= , and the remote side supports opus inband FEC, and the data rate is < X= X kbps, we'll use the inband FEC instead of generic FEC.=C2=A0
--047d7b66fce715fa1404f9c78efa-- From nobody Mon May 19 14:36:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 959601A038B for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 14:36:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.029 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.029 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8YflomIr-bYm for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 14:36:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x22b.google.com (mail-vc0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22b]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 17D0F1A0176 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 14:36:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f171.google.com with SMTP id lc6so10386978vcb.30 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 14:36:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=xjoi6nGmus8HkLzNhOMm+r3Uz2Su+p6VsZMg/vdDcB4=; b=LwSDwWktVSnUUyWWRYUSoAYk2Ngf8LFDjyQYjhSLeRT4XSj183qCsevR/lKhS71keG dG1w47l+fgzhSMapsTPmFJEMbdFv46+/Au6cfNsDxa2dP1Jc++k44AbmfFx67JenL0sD aB3DpnLnYIDq/q0PxMA+27PHX6RsrLWm+npneD+ddhF9NVeHJQknZWhQxtDsZ046tAAO t5lMLzwwrBmXg2aalpnJzRTscIZb+tdEBip0GGVaOj/sIeZIfugb8A2cmShVfMDjVUoc M5L0fcFJZTawgUhnK4S2BPQqieqTMIFUyA6tCjTGnAzd2F9PR3hqJHwKGWVmwdY7mXY0 m/IA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=xjoi6nGmus8HkLzNhOMm+r3Uz2Su+p6VsZMg/vdDcB4=; b=aTphNmhpnGPu+VS9OClQcSBSVd5Y5AKvGEpaFXAOUExcVqo0QVBJ34RWPQJtJ0+kaZ yNmvPwdWCS/l9UXU+3a/60UiNTuUsFCR5uf6jBWzQplE6Zj68Q72dn7UcR4rYTtWEQJr P+h9U8OxEZ7YMlTzXMTiHT+zldSfTxR22KqXIQXBHAwlNUqrCW9zYh+H0NDwcNQanmKm eByOPRPc7eFqF7saEbZa29SsWbNgV4k/zdhheERyZINL7aGfgTZgbXsN3jd1DfDKlmJb opU+NLUHLQTfwoaRy4BIlfXU+X4MNHYRpJ0HONtEsgA6B0LsPivCR8E4F3movDttWEFM pdlw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlKLjelAPiZCpnSbReSJf8a7+x2KlpEFTrBlAQUSbIlE9zZczpG/vhI1xhDrQFfvpVXgik2 X-Received: by 10.52.124.66 with SMTP id mg2mr307013vdb.50.1400535413409; Mon, 19 May 2014 14:36:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.145.105 with HTTP; Mon, 19 May 2014 14:36:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <537A6190.4060709@mozilla.com> From: Justin Uberti Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 14:36:33 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Timothy B. Terriberry" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec5299745cfe05004f9c78f04 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/yQkl-fMrYziIevldqBZ1RCdcz2s Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] FEC for audio? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 21:36:56 -0000 --bcaec5299745cfe05004f9c78f04 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 2:36 PM, Justin Uberti wrote: > > > > On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 12:54 PM, Timothy B. Terriberry < > tterriberry@mozilla.com> wrote: > >> Peter Thatcher wrote: >> >>> Is there a good reason not to support FEC for audio, if that's what the >>> application wants? >>> >> >> I can't think of one. I think we should support FEC for audio. >> >> On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Justin Uberti >> > wrote: >>> Should we specify generic FEC for audio as well as video? Opus has >>> built-in FEC, but it only works for the SILK portion of the payload, >>> meaning that in high bitrate situations, it won't do much for you. I >>> don't know if it has benefits over generic FEC. >>> >> >> The built-in FEC for the SILK layer was meant to cover the case where you >> wanted FEC with no more than one extra frame of latency, but did not want >> to double your bitrate. The reason we did not add built-in FEC for the CELT >> layer was that at the bitrates where CELT operates, we assumed traditional >> codec-agnostic FEC would be used, and thought it an adequate solution >> compared to the extra complexity a codec-specific solution would have >> required. >> >> > Thanks, that's very helpful. This means that if the app says "do FEC", and > the remote side supports opus inband FEC, and the data rate is < XX kbps, > we'll use the inband FEC instead of generic FEC. > Advice on the exact value of XX welcomed. --bcaec5299745cfe05004f9c78f04 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 2:36 PM, Justin Uberti &l= t;juberti@google.co= m> wrote:



On Mon, May 19, 2014= at 12:54 PM, Timothy B. Terriberry <tterriberry@mozilla.com>= wrote:
Peter Thatcher wrote:
Is there a good reason not to support FEC for audio, if that's what the=
application wants?

I can't think of one. I think we should support FEC for audio.

On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com
<mailto:juberti@= google.com>> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Should we specify generic FEC for audio as well as video? Opu= s has
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 built-in FEC, but it only works for the SILK portion of the p= ayload,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 meaning that in high bitrate situations, it won't do much= for you. I
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 don't know if it has benefits over generic FEC.

The built-in FEC for the SILK layer was meant to cover the case where you w= anted FEC with no more than one extra frame of latency, but did not want to= double your bitrate. The reason we did not add built-in FEC for the CELT l= ayer was that at the bitrates where CELT operates, we assumed traditional c= odec-agnostic FEC would be used, and thought it an adequate solution compar= ed to the extra complexity a codec-specific solution would have required.


Thanks, that= 9;s very helpful. This means that if the app says "do FEC", and t= he remote side supports opus inband FEC, and the data rate is < XX kbps,= we'll use the inband FEC instead of generic FEC.=C2=A0

Advice on the exact valu= e of XX welcomed.=C2=A0

--bcaec5299745cfe05004f9c78f04-- From nobody Mon May 19 16:05:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04B7F1A044A for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 16:05:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pp2SqIlrVbmY for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 16:05:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yh0-x233.google.com (mail-yh0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c01::233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8BF5B1A0441 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 16:05:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yh0-f51.google.com with SMTP id f73so7428373yha.38 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 16:05:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=aqq/K5VAbxGS/y1TOkKTJR/x1eEi3l81+V2SlKE24UE=; b=KeLv2/bOsA6tsH+W+MYEVuYa8qsRG0Mq+2H7gCMH5HauZKz/s6RsnllaeE1nc5NMJU lbK25GyJITUABdfDCEzO4aLePt2ZXPhIMEzBENB8NBkpdYczqfWnobVTmwcvh7QEhC1X FCSYqMI6KLyPGtt5JTI1zZElodsjAO70TC+a1BOqbSLkxC+vyqERjqlbJsz8KeXKj6Kk N4j8EACHWWgjWPibTdobOVOLUzzOvJTqFIq7K7+xfSJBCXDgqqqcanjrWfqwvG3o8i/m oYUG+LdfJZR+38U0IUrXyOH+1x20phkMDt8pxEklETFHrxDNPYgd2jR/p+bauNsOFBm7 rqag== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.236.179.69 with SMTP id g45mr56703243yhm.81.1400540714997; Mon, 19 May 2014 16:05:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.170.90.193 with HTTP; Mon, 19 May 2014 16:05:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.170.90.193 with HTTP; Mon, 19 May 2014 16:05:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <537A6190.4060709@mozilla.com> Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 09:05:14 +1000 Message-ID: From: Silvia Pfeiffer To: Justin Uberti Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf303e9ea8cf9e8904f9c8cb3f Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/dMNZV6R5DN8FOGbqzr-28-UCDPE Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] FEC for audio? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 23:05:17 -0000 --20cf303e9ea8cf9e8904f9c8cb3f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Yes please (from a JS dev)! We often have enough bandwidth even on wireless but packet loss and get broken audio. It's almost more important to have this on audio than on video, but I'm keen to get both. Cheers, Silvia. On 20 May 2014 07:36, "Justin Uberti" wrote: > > > > On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 12:54 PM, Timothy B. Terriberry < > tterriberry@mozilla.com> wrote: > >> Peter Thatcher wrote: >> >>> Is there a good reason not to support FEC for audio, if that's what the >>> application wants? >>> >> >> I can't think of one. I think we should support FEC for audio. >> >> On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Justin Uberti >> > wrote: >>> Should we specify generic FEC for audio as well as video? Opus has >>> built-in FEC, but it only works for the SILK portion of the payload, >>> meaning that in high bitrate situations, it won't do much for you. I >>> don't know if it has benefits over generic FEC. >>> >> >> The built-in FEC for the SILK layer was meant to cover the case where you >> wanted FEC with no more than one extra frame of latency, but did not want >> to double your bitrate. The reason we did not add built-in FEC for the CELT >> layer was that at the bitrates where CELT operates, we assumed traditional >> codec-agnostic FEC would be used, and thought it an adequate solution >> compared to the extra complexity a codec-specific solution would have >> required. >> >> > Thanks, that's very helpful. This means that if the app says "do FEC", and > the remote side supports opus inband FEC, and the data rate is < XX kbps, > we'll use the inband FEC instead of generic FEC. > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > --20cf303e9ea8cf9e8904f9c8cb3f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Yes please (from a JS dev)! We often have enough bandwidth e= ven on wireless but packet loss and get broken audio. It's almost more = important to have this on audio than on video, but I'm keen to get both= .

Cheers,
Silvia.

On 20 May 2014 07:36, "Justin Uberti" = <juberti@google.com> wrote:=



On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 12:54 PM, Timothy B. Terriberry <t= terriberry@mozilla.com> wrote:
Peter Thatcher wrote:
Is there a good reason not to support FEC for audio, if that's what the=
application wants?

I can't think of one. I think we should support FEC for audio.

On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com
<mailto:juberti@= google.com>> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Should we specify generic FEC for audio as well as video? Opu= s has
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 built-in FEC, but it only works for the SILK portion of the p= ayload,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 meaning that in high bitrate situations, it won't do much= for you. I
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 don't know if it has benefits over generic FEC.

The built-in FEC for the SILK layer was meant to cover the case where you w= anted FEC with no more than one extra frame of latency, but did not want to= double your bitrate. The reason we did not add built-in FEC for the CELT l= ayer was that at the bitrates where CELT operates, we assumed traditional c= odec-agnostic FEC would be used, and thought it an adequate solution compar= ed to the extra complexity a codec-specific solution would have required.


Thanks, that's ve= ry helpful. This means that if the app says "do FEC", and the rem= ote side supports opus inband FEC, and the data rate is < XX kbps, we= 9;ll use the inband FEC instead of generic FEC.=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

--20cf303e9ea8cf9e8904f9c8cb3f-- From nobody Mon May 19 18:17:09 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AB521A0462 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 18:17:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.929 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.929 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, HOST_MISMATCH_COM=0.311, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5nLiUT7XKBqb for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 18:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.mozilla.org (mx2.corp.phx1.mozilla.com [63.245.216.70]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4B2D1A045E for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 18:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.252.26.16] (corp.mtv2.mozilla.com [63.245.221.32]) (Authenticated sender: tterriberry@mozilla.com) by mx2.mail.corp.phx1.mozilla.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2F77AF25E8 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 18:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <537AACDA.20603@mozilla.com> Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 18:16:10 -0700 From: "Timothy B. Terriberry" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:19.0) Gecko/20100101 SeaMonkey/2.16.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: <537A6190.4060709@mozilla.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/w2WS2EF9l0uNiks0Ez1kjrTHur8 Subject: Re: [rtcweb] FEC for audio? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 01:17:06 -0000 Justin Uberti wrote: > Advice on the exact value of XX welcomed. That is complicated, of course. I think if you're using SILK, you should probably always prefer the in-band FEC (if nothing else, it saves you a minimum of 54 bytes of header overhead over RFC5109), but that's a decision we make on a packet-by-packet basis. However, libopus will use CELT at rates as low as 12 kbps (and always uses CELT for CBR rates below 8 kbps), and will use SILK/Hybrid at rates as high as 76 kbps, depending on the application libopus was configured with, our estimate of whether or not the content contains voice or music, the stereo width (if the signal is stereo), and hysteresis from previous mode decisions. For a simple application, I'd probably enable 5109 for a mono voice stream encoded in VOIP mode at around 48-56 kbps (but I have not done any testing around these numbers). A more complex application could negotiate 5109 always, and then only transmit FEC for the packets that do not contain a SILK layer. If you are using 5109, be careful to pass in the post-FEC recovery packet loss percentage to libopus when encoding, instead of the raw packet loss percentage. Above a certain loss rate (8% if I'm reading the current code correctly), libopus will force SILK usage in order to be able to use the built-in FEC. When protecting CELT, you may also want to experiment with using ULP to protect only the beginning of the CELT payloads. We intentionally organized the packet so the most important information was at the front. The first 64-bits or so are enough to get the pitch filter and basic energy levels correct (though you'll probably want to send a little more to justify all the bitrate you spent on IP+UDP+RTP+FEC headers). As long as you get the energy levels correct, you cannot mess things up _too_ badly, even if the rest of the packet is random garbage. Make sure you pass the decoder a packet with the same size as the original, even if you only recover some of the data, as otherwise even the recovered data will not decode correctly. From nobody Tue May 20 06:08:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 255DD1A035B for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 06:08:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aJtTL-PeCnrv for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 06:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x231.google.com (mail-ie0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::231]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA15B1A0357 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 06:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f177.google.com with SMTP id y20so391559ier.22 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 06:08:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=lZUOJM8B00z/WhiV64TBsOxX91+91pd+Kb3WSBe1myQ=; b=DZkmLj/Iy8aWC9a8xj+hnxFze64G9Da8SVV1cWAWJZGJA4R8HtuLBYNfoRQIhCIYmN sndQnO/aJdIA2yj4xBRATYgzAZigPfF1lRLS6PpLcrusbteRrDvNBsoyMH+UabZ9eruJ gTwxBU/9WAPNAEeYItTwHGEiAZTen4bckYXS9JoFgGXTskhIa5whxADVxG2lZdT0FpwJ nB397Qir7wFNKb/KOPZ7aqFk0bfSegsLorEBFL9Q34Ng7SUm1crLzm7aah9AOM+KCY2F qB0fFiae2L2YRknFBACOptb4CsRDopFHLXTj50zLVVXu+WeOWDuknYukoO0UOqbvZVkv VHPA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.22.37 with SMTP id a5mr4725338igf.30.1400591307941; Tue, 20 May 2014 06:08:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.200.204 with HTTP; Tue, 20 May 2014 06:08:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 09:08:27 -0400 Message-ID: From: Ted Hardie To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b10c99162af4004f9d493fc Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/g5MAGPfJqX10ZUPsGlDmLeBDfY8 Subject: [rtcweb] Discussion tomorrow on NULL ciphers X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 13:08:30 -0000 --047d7b10c99162af4004f9d493fc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Giri raised an issue today for the security documents; it's his impression that the current document permits NULL ciphers for DTLS. Others in the room disagreed that this is the case and further they believe that permitting NULL ciphers is unwise, given our current efforts in the IETF to improve confidentiality. Rather than discuss this today, Giri will make a short presentation tomorrow morning on the use case driving his view and the discussion will follow. This is a change to the set of topics we were going to discuss, so we wanted to let folks know. As usual, any decisions will be taken on the mailing list, not in the meeting, but those wishing to be discuss it should know that it will be discussed in the first slot tomorrow morning (8:30 EDT, May 21, 2014). Ted --047d7b10c99162af4004f9d493fc Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Giri raised an issue today for the security documents; it's his = impression that the current document permits NULL ciphers for DTLS.=C2=A0 O= thers in the room disagreed that this is the case and further they believe = that permitting NULL ciphers is unwise, given our current efforts in the IE= TF to improve confidentiality.=C2=A0 Rather than discuss this today,=C2=A0 = Giri will make a short presentation tomorrow morning on the use case drivin= g his view and the discussion will follow.=C2=A0

This is a change to the set of topics we were going to discuss, so we w= anted to let folks know.

As usual, any decisions will be taken on t= he mailing list, not in the meeting, but those wishing to be discuss it sho= uld know that it will be discussed in the first slot tomorrow morning (8:30= EDT, May 21, 2014).

Ted
--047d7b10c99162af4004f9d493fc-- From nobody Tue May 20 06:26:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49E801A0705 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 06:26:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.029 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.029 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fgtooKtYUAtM for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 06:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-x235.google.com (mail-ve0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c01::235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A374E1A0704 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 06:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ve0-f181.google.com with SMTP id pa12so578888veb.12 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 06:25:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=lT+nbEVIBHhTZyaEoPELxVMgiIZf+DJ+jeSn6Ykn3U4=; b=YBejvxmTnjWGr/3LbaMdA88Joi/bAW77N8Di/TLWsp/O0JkFpV683UUc/4jafEYHAp AZxfaf1QPcb1tA1mIMbHLDc//G7ZaxZOAdUw1X3Dfr/g0VzkfyoXCwc2oe7NMjumCNqV q/ew+dgI6tONbawYwnfDjpyqftzWmKGIuKE+Wrc7E3eiZlYAZaEiigUYMI5toek+l5Lm zV2kfL/JulY5/6NJIgVshMW6MByZK7W0D6Vs4rdG2KOJipnWCU9V/UY5xqmGf5ZDmvjK MbKy9w0+/hlIGGgYt5EJZ3jAn9Eq4+pVzjvkwmBjmi+3mbWd0B2uluDKO+PIl51t3mcW Mz/Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=lT+nbEVIBHhTZyaEoPELxVMgiIZf+DJ+jeSn6Ykn3U4=; b=T/LfZo0CCqPnJyyJ06bYYiK+To/BgSj1W+8OZm7prv0WPwfaCU3k4Dc6tkqG/QwOMN GwnunkI5yQpg5MaZvFPZlLriS4/h6cqZF6BTx26zUdj2Jbcgm2i1V5owMjRIXAjgXhCz k2/xkRLX/gpwY+rZog04LXWH5oUmK0QDsQd0rbjZPs0KUShwqMhXaUw/jf8Gv60nKEVp 6tjmJ3pVa6CQH9JfN9T4O9RtC4rCVQMQQ72ok82osBsQP6F3l6OPgjhz0XQvQ/mBLX0b JWyEhMx/JsSHhMlPMHZ/vi6JwWQ8zFNKaj6c3zySO5/raQAW+JubiFZwxmFE2hP0ktr1 8bYw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlvfoo6L7X2485EaGaH8gQmaYS3mp0POTSD6rSvHV6n0VeaouojwYe5z7r3cgHMUYZA/lfC X-Received: by 10.58.228.163 with SMTP id sj3mr24210971vec.28.1400592356576; Tue, 20 May 2014 06:25:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.145.105 with HTTP; Tue, 20 May 2014 06:25:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <537AACDA.20603@mozilla.com> References: <537A6190.4060709@mozilla.com> <537AACDA.20603@mozilla.com> From: Justin Uberti Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 06:25:33 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Timothy B. Terriberry" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bd6b332e3f23404f9d4d1bd Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/dKjgsVci7PVeHy5V5cp6-pyfb9g Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] FEC for audio? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 13:26:00 -0000 --047d7bd6b332e3f23404f9d4d1bd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I don't think we would send a standalone FEC packet, given the overheads - I would expect we would use RFC 2198 encoding and send 5109 FEC as piggyback on the 'next' audio packet, similar to how I understand the internal FEC works. This would have (5 + 10 + 4) * 8 = 152 bits of overhead per packet, or ~8 Kbps when using 20 ms frames. On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 6:16 PM, Timothy B. Terriberry < tterriberry@mozilla.com> wrote: > Justin Uberti wrote: > >> Advice on the exact value of XX welcomed. >> > > That is complicated, of course. I think if you're using SILK, you should > probably always prefer the in-band FEC (if nothing else, it saves you a > minimum of 54 bytes of header overhead over RFC5109), but that's a decision > we make on a packet-by-packet basis. > > However, libopus will use CELT at rates as low as 12 kbps (and always uses > CELT for CBR rates below 8 kbps), and will use SILK/Hybrid at rates as high > as 76 kbps, depending on the application libopus was configured with, our > estimate of whether or not the content contains voice or music, the stereo > width (if the signal is stereo), and hysteresis from previous mode > decisions. > > For a simple application, I'd probably enable 5109 for a mono voice stream > encoded in VOIP mode at around 48-56 kbps (but I have not done any testing > around these numbers). A more complex application could negotiate 5109 > always, and then only transmit FEC for the packets that do not contain a > SILK layer. > > If you are using 5109, be careful to pass in the post-FEC recovery packet > loss percentage to libopus when encoding, instead of the raw packet loss > percentage. Above a certain loss rate (8% if I'm reading the current code > correctly), libopus will force SILK usage in order to be able to use the > built-in FEC. > > When protecting CELT, you may also want to experiment with using ULP to > protect only the beginning of the CELT payloads. We intentionally organized > the packet so the most important information was at the front. The first > 64-bits or so are enough to get the pitch filter and basic energy levels > correct (though you'll probably want to send a little more to justify all > the bitrate you spent on IP+UDP+RTP+FEC headers). As long as you get the > energy levels correct, you cannot mess things up _too_ badly, even if the > rest of the packet is random garbage. Make sure you pass the decoder a > packet with the same size as the original, even if you only recover some of > the data, as otherwise even the recovered data will not decode correctly. > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --047d7bd6b332e3f23404f9d4d1bd Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't think we would send a standalone FEC packet, g= iven the overheads - I would expect we would use RFC 2198 encoding and send= 5109 FEC as piggyback on the 'next' audio packet, similar to how I= understand the internal FEC works. This would have (5 + 10 + 4) * 8 =3D 15= 2 bits of overhead per packet, or ~8 Kbps when using 20 ms frames.




=


On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 6:16 PM, Timothy B. Terriberry= <tterriberry@mozilla.com> wrote:
Justin Uberti wrote:
Advice on the exact value of XX welcomed.

That is complicated, of course. I think if you're using SILK, you shoul= d probably always prefer the in-band FEC (if nothing else, it saves you a m= inimum of 54 bytes of header overhead over RFC5109), but that's a decis= ion we make on a packet-by-packet basis.

However, libopus will use CELT at rates as low as 12 kbps (and always uses = CELT for CBR rates below 8 kbps), and will use SILK/Hybrid at rates as high= as 76 kbps, depending on the application libopus was configured with, our = estimate of whether or not the content contains voice or music, the stereo = width (if the signal is stereo), and hysteresis from previous mode decision= s.

For a simple application, I'd probably enable 5109 for a mono voice str= eam encoded in VOIP mode at around 48-56 kbps (but I have not done any test= ing around these numbers). A more complex application could negotiate 5109 = always, and then only transmit FEC for the packets that do not contain a SI= LK layer.

If you are using 5109, be careful to pass in the post-FEC recovery packet l= oss percentage to libopus when encoding, instead of the raw packet loss per= centage. Above a certain loss rate (8% if I'm reading the current code = correctly), libopus will force SILK usage in order to be able to use the bu= ilt-in FEC.

When protecting CELT, you may also want to experiment with using ULP to pro= tect only the beginning of the CELT payloads. We intentionally organized th= e packet so the most important information was at the front. The first 64-b= its or so are enough to get the pitch filter and basic energy levels correc= t (though you'll probably want to send a little more to justify all the= bitrate you spent on IP+UDP+RTP+FEC headers). As long as you get the energ= y levels correct, you cannot mess things up _too_ badly, even if the rest o= f the packet is random garbage. Make sure you pass the decoder a packet wit= h the same size as the original, even if you only recover some of the data,= as otherwise even the recovered data will not decode correctly.


_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

--047d7bd6b332e3f23404f9d4d1bd-- From nobody Tue May 20 06:49:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D3D81A0460 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 06:49:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.929 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.929 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, HOST_MISMATCH_COM=0.311, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mR7Wj_zxjC2m for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 06:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.mozilla.org (mx2.corp.phx1.mozilla.com [63.245.216.70]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D131E1A06EF for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 06:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.17.0.43] (50-78-100-113-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.78.100.113]) (Authenticated sender: tterriberry@mozilla.com) by mx2.mail.corp.phx1.mozilla.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EA277F2AD9 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 06:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <537B5D5E.2020402@mozilla.com> Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 06:49:18 -0700 From: "Timothy B. Terriberry" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:29.0) Gecko/20100101 SeaMonkey/2.26 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: <537A6190.4060709@mozilla.com> <537AACDA.20603@mozilla.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/6G5yPwu_gYoYg9NTGhsFfMP1S4A Subject: Re: [rtcweb] FEC for audio? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 13:49:21 -0000 Justin Uberti wrote: > I don't think we would send a standalone FEC packet, given the overheads > - I would expect we would use RFC 2198 encoding and send 5109 FEC as > piggyback on the 'next' audio packet, similar to how I understand the > internal FEC works. This would have (5 + 10 + 4) * 8 = 152 bits of > overhead per packet, or ~8 Kbps when using 20 ms frames. Yes, that would be much better. From nobody Tue May 20 09:29:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBD451A01A5 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 09:29:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fyD6JQUhxyHU for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 09:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x22b.google.com (mail-ig0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E89BA1A0169 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 09:29:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-f171.google.com with SMTP id c1so5069691igq.16 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 09:29:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=RMHrZfRjTyE09c3zNTiN5evT2OyB7852M5kWEgl3A/4=; b=p7Ry4lg0m7j8IH9qxWlLMpAdcVLobgvs2hmSX4WqjLtrYAFxmYlYW0aXMz+XDrL/j5 i+1PC7OFJ3/xPmWKIEUYaTYxGc9WlxNj+m0a6DzGhqlneyPUSjdo9ztEkkK02eOOGdwt sKehloV3ETY8fQHXyH8R+c/Pg+d5NTOvMbnyLBWkuGf//2muWaHQrxvamAzLE+2eBwPu UR1dfnrozdkJVvopvUzTsWNUvaevh9kf6wHE9ZsNAac8kE7FgQ08UzpshzcCsjW7obRX JH544EaHjluISVfWrvVq4TSNefU0W/+aQ7NUbaHKKUeCpVhA3cWRVCo1W3NuPBjkvf4f OpvA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.2.41 with SMTP id 9mr6563199igr.13.1400603363249; Tue, 20 May 2014 09:29:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.200.204 with HTTP; Tue, 20 May 2014 09:29:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 12:29:23 -0400 Message-ID: From: Ted Hardie To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0112cb2af014d604f9d7617e Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/svmFVx7GTNNjhNRF54SKylvpRbg Subject: [rtcweb] Start time tomorrow (May 21, 2014) still 8:30 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 16:29:24 -0000 --089e0112cb2af014d604f9d7617e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 The chairs currently expect that we will not require the whole time. If we do end early, we will close the IETF portion of the meeting and cede the time to the W3C; their chairs tell us that it is likely that the Media Capture discussion from Monday would continue. regards, Ted --089e0112cb2af014d604f9d7617e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The chairs currently expect that we will not require the whole time.= If we do end early, we will close the IETF portion of the meeting and cede= the time to the W3C; their chairs tell us that it is likely that the Media= Capture discussion from Monday would continue.

regards,

Ted
--089e0112cb2af014d604f9d7617e-- From nobody Tue May 20 09:38:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E8641A01E1 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 09:37:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.131 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.131 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.77, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id juKgqmCavvmY for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 09:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server209.appriver.com (server209d.appriver.com [8.31.233.119]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDDA51A01C2 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 09:37:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Note-AR-ScanTimeLocal: 5/20/2014 12:37:53 PM X-Policy: GLOBAL - vidyo.com X-Policy: GLOBAL - vidyo.com X-Policy: GLOBAL - vidyo.com X-Primary: jonathan@vidyo.com X-Note: This Email was scanned by AppRiver SecureTide X-Virus-Scan: V- X-Note-SnifferID: 0 X-Note: TCH-CT/SI:0-132/SG:2 5/20/2014 12:37:52 PM X-GBUdb-Analysis: 0, 162.209.16.213, Ugly c=0.848246 p=-0.98403 Source White X-Signature-Violations: 0-0-0-4920-c X-Note-419: 15.6005 ms. Fail:0 Chk:1340 of 1340 total X-Note: SCH-CT/SI:0-1340/SG:1 5/20/2014 12:37:33 PM X-Note: Spam Tests Failed: X-Country-Path: ->UNITED STATES-> X-Note-Sending-IP: 162.209.16.213 X-Note-Reverse-DNS: X-Note-Return-Path: jonathan@vidyo.com X-Note: User Rule Hits: X-Note: Global Rule Hits: G327 G328 G329 G330 G334 G335 G445 X-Note: Encrypt Rule Hits: X-Note: Mail Class: VALID X-Note: Headers Injected Received: from [162.209.16.213] (HELO mail.vidyo.com) by server209.appriver.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.2) with ESMTPS id 124848633; Tue, 20 May 2014 12:37:53 -0400 Received: from 492133-EXCH2.vidyo.com ([fe80::50:56ff:fe85:6b62]) by 492132-EXCH1.vidyo.com ([fe80::50:56ff:fe85:4f77%13]) with mapi id 14.03.0146.000; Tue, 20 May 2014 11:37:52 -0500 From: Jonathan Lennox To: Magnus Westerlund Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] A proposal for FEC Thread-Index: AQHPdDvQQirGwC6KtECT8yxU3fxCuZtIWtSAgAAGxACAAADwgIABnICA Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 16:37:52 +0000 Message-ID: <8055E0AC-E091-4A82-B4C2-7C5C30B5B5EE@vidyo.com> References: <537A2461.2020300@ericsson.com> <537A2AD7.1090209@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <537A2AD7.1090209@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [160.79.219.114] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <10A11DA084564F4AA94CAA6566D87B45@vidyo.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/RPXxAo7id94WTwHDQ4-mcqFRzKU Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] A proposal for FEC X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 16:37:56 -0000 On May 19, 2014, at 12:01 PM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > On 2014-05-19 11:58, Bernard Aboba wrote: >>>=20 >>> On May 19, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >>>=20 >>> I think adding ULPFEC in WebRTC is reasonable, however despite what RFC >>> 5956 says, we do have a spec issue with the following part of RFC 5109 >>> that will be required to be overridden: >>>=20 >>> Section 7.2: >>>=20 >>> Synchronization Source (SSRC): The SSRC value SHALL be the same as >>> the SSRC value of the media stream it protects. >>>=20 >>> Section 14.1: >>>=20 >>> The SSRC of the FEC stream MUST >>> be set to that of the protected payload stream. >>>=20 >>> So the FEC >>> stream and the payload stream SHOULD be sent through two separate RTP >>> session, and multiplexing them by payload type into one single RTP >>> session SHOULD be avoided. In addition, the FEC and the payload MUST >>> NOT be multiplexed by SSRC into one single RTP session since they >>> always have the same SSRC. >>>=20 >>>> From my perspective this override should be done in a separate documen= t >>> so that also others can use it and not being RTCWEB specific. >>=20 >> The following draft accomplishes this, no? >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lennox-payload-ulp-ssrc-mux >=20 > Yes, but it needs some updates and polishing before ready for > publication. Also, it has not been adopted yet in any WG. But, I think > adopting it and getting it moved forward in an expedited fashion would > be the right way forward. Absolutely =97 it=92s a -00 draft, and definitely could use improvement (es= pecially now that BUNDLE has matured). If there=92s agreement that this should go forward, I=92m happy to revise t= he draft, and if you have specific suggestions, please send them!= From nobody Tue May 20 10:16:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B77F1A0468 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 10:16:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xu5E7NVvF_6T for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 10:16:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x22c.google.com (mail-wg0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::22c]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B9ED51A026B for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 10:16:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f44.google.com with SMTP id a1so817837wgh.15 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 10:16:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=CzeoEEsc0U49aNcllb0l99+HCyYZrFZE0AvDE1+x7cQ=; b=ukEwQt1KhWFsd3xF9qxFCoN8ltUhZEy9fp76Yum7wQIkQ8tG9suozDqzctcNQ2Dgum uN6p6Rn+8Mp2yXvLunjXMmOQZ5QJvlK4eB978x4lBhYpup1PGAr0CzLgHbmjliEfAyeZ acBhU1MAE6bw3wGDHVDDLrpbsT4cBQm2K8FeLyQZLJlo+qHbeX7ea+qpOBEpdfY015Rx NMj/SSUae8MFuSZQgwBTe2NwLDsucvZo9rV/rJMqw38f9F/0MSvGfwU/vweTxxU60v8W GwPt5j39ZzAAn4ECG+332xXek0TFrKCsQ69AXMkDiZOxS9Eejots3pvjkgOEN+OLQWFJ ttfg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.206.205 with SMTP id lq13mr5380271wic.11.1400606190931; Tue, 20 May 2014 10:16:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.180.13.73 with HTTP; Tue, 20 May 2014 10:16:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <8055E0AC-E091-4A82-B4C2-7C5C30B5B5EE@vidyo.com> References: <537A2461.2020300@ericsson.com> <537A2AD7.1090209@ericsson.com> <8055E0AC-E091-4A82-B4C2-7C5C30B5B5EE@vidyo.com> Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 10:16:30 -0700 Message-ID: From: Suhas Nandakumar To: Jonathan Lennox Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c382d47b16e504f9d80a64 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/4F8utN6bP2OUGi1TcMtAwdW8_6Y Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] A proposal for FEC X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 17:16:36 -0000 --001a11c382d47b16e504f9d80a64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I support updating the above mentioned draft in this regard ./Suhas On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 9:37 AM, Jonathan Lennox wrote= : > > On May 19, 2014, at 12:01 PM, Magnus Westerlund < > magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote: > > > On 2014-05-19 11:58, Bernard Aboba wrote: > >>> > >>> On May 19, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Magnus Westerlund < > magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> I think adding ULPFEC in WebRTC is reasonable, however despite what R= FC > >>> 5956 says, we do have a spec issue with the following part of RFC 510= 9 > >>> that will be required to be overridden: > >>> > >>> Section 7.2: > >>> > >>> Synchronization Source (SSRC): The SSRC value SHALL be the same as > >>> the SSRC value of the media stream it protects. > >>> > >>> Section 14.1: > >>> > >>> The SSRC of the FEC stream MUST > >>> be set to that of the protected payload stream. > >>> > >>> So the FEC > >>> stream and the payload stream SHOULD be sent through two separate RT= P > >>> session, and multiplexing them by payload type into one single RTP > >>> session SHOULD be avoided. In addition, the FEC and the payload MUS= T > >>> NOT be multiplexed by SSRC into one single RTP session since they > >>> always have the same SSRC. > >>> > >>>> From my perspective this override should be done in a separate > document > >>> so that also others can use it and not being RTCWEB specific. > >> > >> The following draft accomplishes this, no? > >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lennox-payload-ulp-ssrc-mux > > > > Yes, but it needs some updates and polishing before ready for > > publication. Also, it has not been adopted yet in any WG. But, I think > > adopting it and getting it moved forward in an expedited fashion would > > be the right way forward. > > Absolutely =E2=80=94 it=E2=80=99s a -00 draft, and definitely could use i= mprovement > (especially now that BUNDLE has matured). > > If there=E2=80=99s agreement that this should go forward, I=E2=80=99m hap= py to revise the > draft, and if you have specific suggestions, please send them! > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --001a11c382d47b16e504f9d80a64 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I support updating the above mentioned draft in this regar= d

./Suhas


=
On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 9:37 AM, Jonathan Lennox= <jonathan@vidyo.com> wrote:

On May 19, 2014, at 12:01 PM, Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:
> On 2014-05-19 11:58, Bernard Aboba wrote:
>>>
>>> On May 19, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com&= gt; wrote:
>>>
>>> I think adding ULPFEC in WebRTC is reasonable, however despite= what RFC
>>> 5956 says, we do have a spec issue with the following part of = RFC 5109
>>> that will be required to be overridden:
>>>
>>> Section 7.2:
>>>
>>> =C2=A0Synchronization Source (SSRC): The SSRC value SHALL be t= he same as
>>> =C2=A0the SSRC value of the media stream it protects.
>>>
>>> Section 14.1:
>>>
>>> =C2=A0The SSRC of the FEC stream MUST
>>> =C2=A0be set to that of the protected payload stream.
>>>
>>> =C2=A0So the FEC
>>> =C2=A0stream and the payload stream SHOULD be sent through two= separate RTP
>>> =C2=A0session, and multiplexing them by payload type into one = single RTP
>>> =C2=A0session SHOULD be avoided. =C2=A0In addition, the FEC an= d the payload MUST
>>> =C2=A0NOT be multiplexed by SSRC into one single RTP session s= ince they
>>> =C2=A0always have the same SSRC.
>>>
>>>> From my perspective this override should be done in a sepa= rate document
>>> so that also others can use it and not being RTCWEB specific.<= br> >>
>> The following draft accomplishes this, no?
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lennox-payload-ul= p-ssrc-mux
>
> Yes, but it needs some updates and polishing before ready for
> publication. Also, it has not been adopted yet in any WG. But, I think=
> adopting it and getting it moved forward in an expedited fashion would=
> be the right way forward.

Absolutely =E2=80=94 it=E2=80=99s a -00 draft, and definitely c= ould use improvement (especially now that BUNDLE has matured).

If there=E2=80=99s agreement that this should go forward, I=E2=80=99m happy= to revise the draft, and if you have specific suggestions, please send the= m!
___________________________________= ____________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

--001a11c382d47b16e504f9d80a64-- From nobody Tue May 20 10:23:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 077971A05D3 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 10:23:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25dhgJ7HbS4C for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 10:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5BEC71A074B for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 10:23:20 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-f79a56d000006536-93-537b8f859fd9 Received: from ESESSHC011.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 41.42.25910.58F8B735; Tue, 20 May 2014 19:23:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.53) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.174.1; Tue, 20 May 2014 19:23:17 +0200 Message-ID: <537B8F83.8040201@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 13:23:15 -0400 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathan Lennox References: <537A2461.2020300@ericsson.com> <537A2AD7.1090209@ericsson.com> <8055E0AC-E091-4A82-B4C2-7C5C30B5B5EE@vidyo.com> In-Reply-To: <8055E0AC-E091-4A82-B4C2-7C5C30B5B5EE@vidyo.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrNLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+JvjW5bf3WwwatbfBYb9v1ntti/+Dyz xdp/7ewOzB47Z91l91iy5CeTR9uzO+wBzFFcNimpOZllqUX6dglcGT27L7AVnOSu+P9yGlMD 4zLOLkZODgkBE4lTO34wQdhiEhfurWfrYuTiEBI4yihx+sEkRghnOaPE+hP/WECqeAW0Jba8 2wPWwSKgKnGtaTs7iM0mYCFx80cjG4gtKhAsseHhX3aIekGJkzOfgPWKCGhIXHz2AayGWSBI 4trSS0BzODiEgeKdt+0hdn1ilFj8egIjSA2ngK3E320H2UBqJATEJXoagyBaDSSOLJrDCmHL SzRvnc0MYgsBndbQ1ME6gVFoFpLNs5C0zELSsoCReRWjaHFqcVJuupGRXmpRZnJxcX6eXl5q ySZGYGgf3PLbYAfjy+eOhxgFOBiVeHgXuFUFC7EmlhVX5h5ilOZgURLnvahRHSwkkJ5Ykpqd mlqQWhRfVJqTWnyIkYmDU6qBMX4tA0/vhAP3N8wru/nL86XEWo7t5v5mMzeuuLTowGSbKQku rgqbuyYsiQwKmHgo3EE+n+PzK/lFCfNEKs9d9Nb+7Bi6se1heXGFQkFi3lTDizYX+CeyZ8vX aqs94Tp9pDPJa2/Q6siZkVzzW1YcElnsycn96MFO7V1HZ4p75SrY6sx+wMD6UImlOCPRUIu5 qDgRAEsiBJROAgAA Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/y2fhEkIenZaIJEH4IAkQMU0ojOA Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] A proposal for FEC X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 17:23:32 -0000 On 2014-05-20 12:37, Jonathan Lennox wrote: > > On May 19, 2014, at 12:01 PM, Magnus Westerlund > wrote: > >> Yes, but it needs some updates and polishing before ready for >> publication. Also, it has not been adopted yet in any WG. But, I >> think adopting it and getting it moved forward in an expedited >> fashion would be the right way forward. > > Absolutely — it’s a -00 draft, and definitely could use improvement > (especially now that BUNDLE has matured). > > If there’s agreement that this should go forward, I’m happy to revise > the draft, and if you have specific suggestions, please send them! > I think you should revise the draft. I will see if I can get any more detailed feedback in. Uncertain due to the few days until my parental leave. But, I think you need to check that you address all the relevant RFC 2119 language places. It looked to me that you missed to address the one in Section 7.2 of RFC 5109. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Tue May 20 11:33:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BDD91A02A6 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 11:33:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iJW1TaZUJpGX for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 11:33:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.86.75]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 940921A0226 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 11:33:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4362; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1400610826; x=1401820426; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-id:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=sFzdNoZei8/lg/ohR17WL9kp86liHJaMsTpKYqYSMQ0=; b=SLdi2C6okyopJydxDcvhuI+yUqH8LIXOGPv0B8vl+VTGqPzZRXUpkzcY F/WRza9oAiWkSDkvWxPp8nNqmrgKyVK2uLBLjnYWvSzzRE8yF+J/dy3ei VIEWYkYBCF54QScOSfw/SBkT0e/T6py+JxDyZRwuHXBfzgskZ2oL4bYXn U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AowIALuee1OtJA2E/2dsb2JhbABZgwZRUQe8X4ZqUQGBHhZ0giUBAQEEAQEBaxcEAgEIEQMBAi8nCx0IAgQBEgmIOAgF028Xjhs6BoQ6BIllkAOBPZFjgziBbgcbIA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.98,875,1392163200"; d="scan'208";a="326527167" Received: from alln-core-10.cisco.com ([173.36.13.132]) by rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 May 2014 18:33:45 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x07.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x07.cisco.com [173.37.183.81]) by alln-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s4KIXjLI018826 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 18:33:45 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x08.cisco.com ([169.254.3.9]) by xhc-rcd-x07.cisco.com ([173.37.183.81]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Tue, 20 May 2014 13:33:45 -0500 From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" To: "Ram Mohan R (rmohanr)" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHPcz3a9HCRm1AkXE2nl2vnxNb9UptIOKaAgAFzLoA= Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 18:33:44 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20140519083842.21555.8626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [10.21.72.7] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <5C35F4519963B747B29E8D9A31A65FAF@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/_HX2HpSed1-H4uldKiBU1oYUQVI Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-03.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 18:33:48 -0000 The updated draft looks good. I have some minor comments and a suggestion for the question/note in section 6. Section 1 reads as follows, "This document describes a new STUN usage with a request and response messages which verifies the remote peer's consent to receive traffic, and can also detect loss of liveness.=B2 Suggested text corrects typos and reflects that the request/response verify liveness. Loss of liveless is detected as by other means, such as the expiration of a timer while waiting to receive a expected message. "This document describes a new STUN usage with exchange of request and response messages to verify the remote peer's consent to receive traffic, and the absence of which for a period of time indicates a loss of liveness.=B2 Several places state "consent to send traffic=B2. I think this is confusing= . The consent is to receive traffic. Consent is provided by the receiver, and this consent is verified by the sender. For example, section 4.1 reads as follows, "Explicit consent to send is indicated by=B2. This should read "Explicit consent to receive is indicated by=B2, or "Explicit permission to send is obtained by=B2. I prefer the former. If you agree, this should be changed in several places. Section 5 s/applications MUST NOT be able to send heartbeats faster than 1 per second/applications MUST NOT send heartbeats at an average rate of more than 1 per second Section 6 s/ICE connectivity check described/ICE connectivity checks described As for the DSCP to use when media on transport addresses use multiple DSCPs, I assume this because the media streams having different priorities. That being the case, using the same DSCP for the STUN messages as that used for the highest priority media stream(s) seems appropriate. Cheers, Charles On 5/19/14, 6:24 AM, "Ram Mohan R (rmohanr)" wrote: >The revision has text on > >1) Explaining how consent expires and is revoked (sections 4.1 and 4.2). >2) Added an example (non normative) implementation procedure. > >Comments are welcome >-Authors > > >-----Original Message----- >From: "internet-drafts@ietf.org" >Date: Monday, 19 May 2014 2:08 pm >To: "i-d-announce@ietf.org" >Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" >Subject: [rtcweb] I-D Action: >draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-03.txt > >> >>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >>directories. >> This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers >>Working Group of the IETF. >> >> Title : STUN Usage for Consent Freshness >> Authors : Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal >> Dan Wing >> Ram Mohan Ravindranath >> Tirumaleswar Reddy >> Martin Thomson >> Filename : draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-03.txt >> Pages : 9 >> Date : 2014-05-19 >> >>Abstract: >> To prevent sending excessive traffic to an endpoint, periodic consent >> needs to be obtained from that remote endpoint. >> >> This document describes a consent mechanism using a new STUN usage. >> This same mechanism can also determine connection loss ("liveness") >> with a remote peer. >> >> >>The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness >>/ >> >>There's also a htmlized version available at: >>http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-03 >> >>A diff from the previous version is available at: >>http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshne= ss >>- >>03 >> >> >>Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >>submission >>until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >> >>Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >>ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>rtcweb mailing list >>rtcweb@ietf.org >>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > >_______________________________________________ >rtcweb mailing list >rtcweb@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From nobody Tue May 20 11:43:59 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76A031A03A3 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 11:43:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FzgfDkWy-GTi for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 11:43:54 -0700 (PDT) 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d="scan'208";a="45577501" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by alln-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 May 2014 18:43:52 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x11.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x11.cisco.com [173.36.12.85]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s4KIhqr5009731 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 18:43:52 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x08.cisco.com ([169.254.3.9]) by xhc-aln-x11.cisco.com ([173.36.12.85]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Tue, 20 May 2014 13:43:51 -0500 From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" To: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" , "Ram Mohan R (rmohanr)" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHPcz3a9HCRm1AkXE2nl2vnxNb9UptIOKaAgAFzLoCAAAMLgA== Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 18:43:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20140519083842.21555.8626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.3.9.131030 x-originating-ip: [10.21.72.7] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="euc-kr" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/_cDfRrmIVJ7gLBd2yQ-o4sM6OZw Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-stun-consent-freshness-03.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 18:43:56 -0000 T24gNS8yMC8xNCwgMTE6MzMgQU0sICJDaGFybGVzIEVja2VsIChlY2tlbGN1KSIgPGVja2VsY3VA Y2lzY28uY29tPiB3cm90ZToNCg0KPlRoZSB1cGRhdGVkIGRyYWZ0IGxvb2tzIGdvb2QuIEkgaGF2 ZSBzb21lIG1pbm9yIGNvbW1lbnRzIGFuZCBhIHN1Z2dlc3Rpb24NCj5mb3IgdGhlIHF1ZXN0aW9u L25vdGUgaW4gc2VjdGlvbiA2Lg0KPg0KPlNlY3Rpb24gMSByZWFkcyBhcyBmb2xsb3dzLA0KPiJU 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Pmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vcnRjd2ViDQo+DQo+X19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj5ydGN3ZWIgbWFpbGlu ZyBsaXN0DQo+cnRjd2ViQGlldGYub3JnDQo+aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9s aXN0aW5mby9ydGN3ZWINCg0K From nobody Tue May 20 15:59:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 573351A01EB for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 15:59:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dWr44lVt3vCj for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 15:59:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from r2-chicago.webserversystems.com (r2-chicago.webserversystems.com [173.236.101.58]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 83FFC1A019E for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 15:59:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool-71-175-4-197.phlapa.fios.verizon.net ([71.175.4.197]:3642 helo=[192.168.1.12]) by r2-chicago.webserversystems.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1Wmt0f-0001mG-Vi; Tue, 20 May 2014 17:59:50 -0500 Message-ID: <537BDE3A.9050208@jesup.org> Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 18:59:06 -0400 From: Randell Jesup User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020209020003050003090906" X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - r2-chicago.webserversystems.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jesup.org X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: r2-chicago.webserversystems.com: authenticated_id: randell@jesup.org Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/9-huONgP_dtJXLTczVgTGmxOaiA Cc: Michael Tuexen , Cullen Jennings Subject: [rtcweb] Text for data-channel priority X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 22:59:54 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020209020003050003090906 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 6.4 Channel Definition Old text: *... Each data channel also has a priority. These priorities MUST NOT be strict priorities. * New text: *... Each data channel also has a priority, which is an unsigned 2 byte value. These priorities MUST be interpreted as weighted-fair-queuing scheduling priorities per the definition in [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata].* Note that the next revision of ndata (-01) will add the weighted-fair-queuing option to section 4.1.2. The W3 working group has the job of mapping JS-level priorities to the values to be used here (such as 1, 2 ,4, 8 or 100, 200, 400, 800). -- Randell Jesup -- rjesup a t mozilla d o t com --------------020209020003050003090906 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

6.4 Channel Definition

Old text:
... Each data channel also has a priority. These priorities MUST NOT be strict priorities.


New text:
... Each data channel also has a priority, which is an unsigned 2 byte value.  These priorities MUST be interpreted as weighted-fair-queuing scheduling priorities per the definition in  [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata].


Note that the next revision of ndata (-01) will add the weighted-fair-queuing option to section 4.1.2.  The W3 working group has the job of mapping JS-level priorities to the values to be used here (such as 1, 2 ,4, 8  or 100, 200, 400, 800).
-- 
Randell Jesup -- rjesup a t mozilla d o t com
--------------020209020003050003090906-- From nobody Tue May 20 23:04:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49D171A027A for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 23:04:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bIw6UQZ6woaU for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 23:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-n.franken.de (drew.ipv6.franken.de [IPv6:2001:638:a02:a001:20e:cff:fe4a:feaa]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3DE941A0425 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 23:04:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.225.7.42] (unknown [194.95.73.101]) (Authenticated sender: macmic) by mail-n.franken.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 024711C104D8D; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:04:04 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Michael Tuexen In-Reply-To: <537BDE3A.9050208@jesup.org> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 08:04:03 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <59F03AF1-DBBF-495E-A9A5-5B0C842A6C1F@fh-muenster.de> References: <537BDE3A.9050208@jesup.org> To: Randell Jesup X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/cVUEJKMfW-Imsj5DcX1u45L53eg Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , Cullen Jennings Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Text for data-channel priority X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 06:04:21 -0000 On 21 May 2014, at 00:59, Randell Jesup wrote: > 6.4 Channel Definition >=20 > Old text: > ... Each data channel also has a priority. These priorities MUST NOT = be strict priorities.=20 >=20 >=20 > New text: > ... Each data channel also has a priority, which is an unsigned 2 byte = value. These priorities MUST be interpreted as weighted-fair-queuing = scheduling priorities per the definition in = [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata]. >=20 >=20 > Note that the next revision of ndata (-01) will add the = weighted-fair-queuing option to section 4.1.2. The W3 working group has = the job of mapping JS-level priorities to the values to be used here = (such as 1, 2 ,4, 8 or 100, 200, 400, 800). Is it the W3C group or the IETF WG? I personally don't care. My initial = suggestion was that it is done the IETF WG... That would require to add a simple table to the = above text. Best regards Michael > --=20 > Randell Jesup -- rjesup a t mozilla d o t com >=20 From nobody Wed May 21 06:51:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF2951A0675 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 06:51:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -115.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-115.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z0tjRozwG5ap for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 06:51:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-4.cisco.com (alln-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.142.91]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C9B621A068F for ; 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Wed, 21 May 2014 13:51:22 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com ([169.254.5.121]) by xhc-aln-x14.cisco.com ([173.36.12.88]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:51:22 -0500 From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: JSEP issues Thread-Index: AQHPdPu/tg+9uaoNfkieYX3YmsuHjQ== Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 13:51:21 +0000 Message-ID: <087443FA-F03D-4633-B451-37A462E5E0EF@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.82.211.1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <113DA39707ACAE48A798CE59B8B8CFBF@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/yFq09Zm5mLass2gJI3m0FDA6bzc Subject: [rtcweb] JSEP issues X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 13:51:26 -0000 Quick way to view the status of issues for JSEP=20 https://waffle.io/rtcweb-wg/jsep From nobody Wed May 21 07:22:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21F411A04B9 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 07:22:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rWcdqPxQZUZC for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 07:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from r2-chicago.webserversystems.com (r2-chicago.webserversystems.com [173.236.101.58]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 703751A06B1 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 07:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool-71-175-4-197.phlapa.fios.verizon.net ([71.175.4.197]:1425 helo=[192.168.1.12]) by r2-chicago.webserversystems.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1Wn7PT-000BBg-RK; Wed, 21 May 2014 09:22:23 -0500 Message-ID: <537CB673.9090503@jesup.org> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 10:21:39 -0400 From: Randell Jesup User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <537BDE3A.9050208@jesup.org> In-Reply-To: <537BDE3A.9050208@jesup.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080702080402000705080104" X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - r2-chicago.webserversystems.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jesup.org X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: r2-chicago.webserversystems.com: authenticated_id: randell@jesup.org Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/cncQjWfrQWo61GL7WbItCeXxVmw Cc: Michael Tuexen Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Text for data-channel priority X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 14:22:45 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080702080402000705080104 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/20/2014 6:59 PM, Randell Jesup wrote: > > > 6.4 Channel Definition > > Old text: > *... Each data channel also has a priority. These priorities MUST NOT > be strict priorities. * > > > New text: > *... Each data channel also has a priority, which is an unsigned 2 > byte value. These priorities MUST be interpreted as > weighted-fair-queuing scheduling priorities per the definition in > [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata].* > > > Note that the next revision of ndata (-01) will add the > weighted-fair-queuing option to section 4.1.2. The W3 working group > has the job of mapping JS-level priorities to the values to be used > here (such as 1, 2 ,4, 8 or 100, 200, 400, 800). Per discussion in the room & jabber, I'll revise the data-channel to include the above (though 32-bit, since the ndata priority range 32-bit), and also rev data-protocol as follows: Old text: *Priority: 2 bytes (**unsigned **integer): ** **The priority of the channel as described in [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-data-channel]. The higher the number, the lower the priority. *New text: *Priority: 2 bytes (**unsigned **integer): ** **The priority of the channel as described in [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-data-channel]. The higher the number, the lower the priority. For use in WebRTC, the values used should be one of 128 ("extra high"), 256 ("high"), 512 ("normal") or 1024 ("below normal").* Note that the size of priority here is for the DCEP Open message, so it doesn't have to be 32-bit even if data-channel allows that range. (And in fact we're using far less than the entire available range currently for webrtc, per the text above.) I'll respin both drafts. -- Randell Jesup -- rjesup a t mozilla d o t com --------------080702080402000705080104 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 5/20/2014 6:59 PM, Randell Jesup wrote:

6.4 Channel Definition

Old text:
... Each data channel also has a priority. These priorities MUST NOT be strict priorities.


New text:
... Each data channel also has a priority, which is an unsigned 2 byte value.  These priorities MUST be interpreted as weighted-fair-queuing scheduling priorities per the definition in  [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata].


Note that the next revision of ndata (-01) will add the weighted-fair-queuing option to section 4.1.2.  The W3 working group has the job of mapping JS-level priorities to the values to be used here (such as 1, 2 ,4, 8  or 100, 200, 400, 800).

Per discussion in the room & jabber, I'll revise the data-channel to include the above (though 32-bit, since the ndata priority range 32-bit), and also rev data-protocol as follows:

Old text:
Priority: 2 bytes (unsigned integer): 
The priority of the channel as described in [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-data-channel]. The higher the number, the lower the priority.

New text:
Priority: 2 bytes (unsigned integer): 
The priority of the channel as described in [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-data-channel]. The higher the number, the lower the priority.  For use in WebRTC, the values used should be one of 128 ("extra high"), 256 ("high"), 512 ("normal") or 1024 ("below normal").

Note that the size of priority here is for the DCEP Open message, so it doesn't have to be 32-bit even if data-channel allows that range.  (And in fact we're using far less than the entire available range currently for webrtc, per the text above.)

I'll respin both drafts.

-- 
Randell Jesup -- rjesup a t mozilla d o t com
--------------080702080402000705080104-- From nobody Wed May 21 07:35:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F9CC1A06C4 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 07:35:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HH8wJrQUYQNk for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 07:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x230.google.com (mail-wg0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB60C1A06C0 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 07:35:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f48.google.com with SMTP id b13so2108940wgh.19 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 07:35:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=ZRQBhUTtX8QwBfaSzJJEzmks3hUbWd4cpQffXOd40i0=; b=BzLmA6idJ6El5aIXccGia8r0UU9sGlmR1pxIQ89PrA9He9cVu7CuVWEC6NRT0Pz3FE XZRXIDUmF4a5ptVIHiRg5wF0Wt146S6oM0qeTd4gtnT7j5jyfySHXGxiUibfsKDGV2aH iddbYoRb5593tbDXJbMOhl6OE2dYnByT5gDJsUjEbL/+xvs0O4hZrJ6oOwjwnsgq4woh EVWyKpYNkFb+cU9r0hf4kfaUSNetqtz1Ovmthl8GfBUiEDNMyvRgF4Z7yc7GZQc00Lji 10tw5miTSICu8Yoc4pqzS3RaG1lvEDSUCmaFp9TYUWxHEg97WMsQv0MfWkPTKuK3GVGa jTwQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.72.136 with SMTP id d8mr10635611wiv.36.1400682900706; Wed, 21 May 2014 07:35:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.202.74 with HTTP; Wed, 21 May 2014 07:35:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <087443FA-F03D-4633-B451-37A462E5E0EF@cisco.com> References: <087443FA-F03D-4633-B451-37A462E5E0EF@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 09:35:00 -0500 Message-ID: From: Mary Barnes To: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043be224bd5c5604f9e9e62c Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/w6sddKHIlEjqmCL4iK6zoKLTZbk Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] JSEP issues X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 14:35:06 -0000 --f46d043be224bd5c5604f9e9e62c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 It would be really handy to have this link in the WG wiki since you're not using the issue tracker provided on the tools page. You might also want to indicate that the video codec stuff on the wiki is now dated. Thanks, Mary. On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 8:51 AM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote: > > Quick way to view the status of issues for JSEP > > https://waffle.io/rtcweb-wg/jsep > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --f46d043be224bd5c5604f9e9e62c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It would be really handy to have this link in the WG wiki = since you're not using the issue tracker provided on the tools page. = =C2=A0You might also want to indicate that the video codec stuff on the wik= i is now dated.=C2=A0

Thanks,
Mary.


On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 8:51 AM, Culle= n Jennings (fluffy) <fluffy@cisco.com> wrote:

Quick way to view the status of issues for JSEP

https://waff= le.io/rtcweb-wg/jsep


_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

--f46d043be224bd5c5604f9e9e62c-- From nobody Wed May 21 08:13:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6BAD1A0691 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:13:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rFs01aAfZkaD for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:13:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-f176.google.com (mail-ve0-f176.google.com [209.85.128.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A604F1A046C for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:13:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ve0-f176.google.com with SMTP id jz11so2681617veb.35 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:13:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=0VvRYPlASrkDH984KdKazR0XjzGiQBRQLAVJr50Aq+4=; b=JQnzQCgJfvWIOYebF2YfC54//dPJMVsZkv55Ob43Xo5KuJi2OXOXCY65RHFeg9QetZ IMPhR69S5Qubx11cScmIQNBn6vn7GYPSQ+HhFwxjUGeQBWDavRwgnNRIlerMFhZAwBRH pj70e+RG0SVLOCk2mRvTrMmtWYZEvoQFLnLZGPOAAzOhQVp/p7XzAVJIWCUqCgPiRTyD Q/A76Qsf5onjfNBmw1mOQ7s2Aa/GzYv+uE/aHbZU3TpOvBDr5ZuoS3iwYUphxger2cPe ZmlKjoZIaB1ek9brCaUMklM2bI/R4/36cRI01VFPcgYdXIokpp2vNpPQcl/oLgRItAAY L1sw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmmhdwKs/aPtnQCiQt7PT4W2rj1JKTQ5qXTYayrkoZc6ZC0fHn6eggrI9zUM9O7/EGkQhKV X-Received: by 10.52.141.74 with SMTP id rm10mr8774363vdb.6.1400685194080; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:13:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.58.243.1 with HTTP; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:12:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [216.239.55.62] In-Reply-To: References: <087443FA-F03D-4633-B451-37A462E5E0EF@cisco.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 08:12:33 -0700 Message-ID: To: Mary Barnes Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec52c5e7b6f816c04f9ea6fc3 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/STK2UTo9wl3WDa_aGHA4Y48VU6k Cc: "Cullen Jennings \(fluffy\)" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] JSEP issues X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 15:13:20 -0000 --bcaec52c5e7b6f816c04f9ea6fc3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 This is just a (much nicer) view on the github issues lists for the individual drafts in question, namely: https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/security-arch/issues You can get to all the relevant stuff from: https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/ I would encourage the chairs to produce a home page for the WG like: http://http2.github.io/ -Ekr On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 7:35 AM, Mary Barnes wrote: > It would be really handy to have this link in the WG wiki since you're not > using the issue tracker provided on the tools page. You might also want to > indicate that the video codec stuff on the wiki is now dated. > > Thanks, > Mary. > > > On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 8:51 AM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) < > fluffy@cisco.com> wrote: > >> >> Quick way to view the status of issues for JSEP >> >> https://waffle.io/rtcweb-wg/jsep >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > --bcaec52c5e7b6f816c04f9ea6fc3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is just a (much nicer) vie= w on the github issues lists for the
indivi= dual drafts in question, namely:

=
https://github.com/rtc= web-wg/jsep/issues
https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/= security-arch/issues

You c= an get to all the relevant stuff from:
https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/
=

I would enc= ourage the chairs to produce a home page for the WG like:
http://http2.github.io= /

-Ekr<= /div>




On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 7:35 AM, Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@g= mail.com> wrote:
It would be really handy to have this link in the WG wiki = since you're not using the issue tracker provided on the tools page. = =C2=A0You might also want to indicate that the video codec stuff on the wik= i is now dated.=C2=A0

Thanks,
Mary.


On W= ed, May 21, 2014 at 8:51 AM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) <= ;fluffy@cisco.com= > wrote:

Quick way to view the status of issues for JSEP

https://waff= le.io/rtcweb-wg/jsep


_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


--bcaec52c5e7b6f816c04f9ea6fc3-- From nobody Wed May 21 08:52:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AEB51A0691 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:52:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dHWUl7UbuDFU for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:52:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22f.google.com (mail-wi0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0926B1A0135 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f175.google.com with SMTP id f8so7909128wiw.2 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:52:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=RjG64M5rl8CFTa0sg8SR7i34KG7HQHLmJg/2w+yp3pQ=; b=oPrGUgiKO92P546b6isFsA6adnT6kMFusBelrCk60VbptTGrCUANc17VoiDGzPZxX/ HcQjwzmbv3/xI7CPRV3a5sIHCAiHaCH0zNxn4SaLAkDnXLULNnr+XpoWdfnP6lV2Fan+ 4MtQ+vEQDO+CgU/Lfpth2gJ1soQwP81cFJnkR6Dr9L78Ng7egwjKDEAaweV8xR9PAQD5 Sr9dUvjxXtZsf/GUA6XZshGs12vAX6ma2PUuSJCSRlZLLt+A/5mh6iPefoECd4TC1ZSg OWyUO84tC+qCcYSu22FYGTcm6TgNCd24d2cl6pMTSqpTWD3fl0kxMYzPjqvgZyopaEGh n0uQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.9.8 with SMTP id v8mr32656973wja.53.1400687536882; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.235.163 with HTTP; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:52:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <537CB673.9090503@jesup.org> References: <537BDE3A.9050208@jesup.org> <537CB673.9090503@jesup.org> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 08:52:16 -0700 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Randell Jesup Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/XtatrSmOKuw2N2Cndez5TEvYsuw Cc: Michael Tuexen , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Text for data-channel priority X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 15:52:21 -0000 On 21 May 2014 07:21, Randell Jesup wrote: > The priority of the channel as described in [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-data-channel]. > The higher the number, the lower the priority. For use in WebRTC, the > values used should be one of 128 ("extra high"), 256 ("high"), 512 > ("normal") or 1024 ("below normal"). Are these weights back to front? Wouldn't that have high getting half the bits allocated to normal? BTW, I should explain my numbers. For partitioning a logarithmic space, the middle of the range is sqrt(max), which in this case is the 256 value. From nobody Wed May 21 08:53:12 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 987F71A03C9 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:53:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GjpGZxQSsW8N for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-n.franken.de (drew.ipv6.franken.de [IPv6:2001:638:a02:a001:20e:cff:fe4a:feaa]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7AE71A0346 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.225.7.42] (unknown [194.95.73.101]) (Authenticated sender: macmic) by mail-n.franken.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 672651C104988; Wed, 21 May 2014 17:53:05 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Michael Tuexen In-Reply-To: <537CB673.9090503@jesup.org> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 17:53:04 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5272C8E5-2318-40D7-8EBF-103006F8F5E2@fh-muenster.de> References: <537BDE3A.9050208@jesup.org> <537CB673.9090503@jesup.org> To: Randell Jesup X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/czYDMAWWw2p8AX90iRIWoIZGJik Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Text for data-channel priority X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 15:53:09 -0000 On 21 May 2014, at 16:21, Randell Jesup wrote: > On 5/20/2014 6:59 PM, Randell Jesup wrote: >> 6.4 Channel Definition >>=20 >> Old text: >> ... Each data channel also has a priority. These priorities MUST NOT = be strict priorities.=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> New text: >> ... Each data channel also has a priority, which is an unsigned 2 = byte value. These priorities MUST be interpreted as = weighted-fair-queuing scheduling priorities per the definition in = [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata]. >>=20 >>=20 >> Note that the next revision of ndata (-01) will add the = weighted-fair-queuing option to section 4.1.2. The W3 working group has = the job of mapping JS-level priorities to the values to be used here = (such as 1, 2 ,4, 8 or 100, 200, 400, 800). >=20 > Per discussion in the room & jabber, I'll revise the data-channel to = include the above (though 32-bit, since the ndata priority range = 32-bit), and also rev data-protocol as follows: >=20 > Old text: > Priority: 2 bytes (unsigned integer): =20 > The priority of the channel as described in = [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-data-channel]. The higher the number, the lower the = priority. >=20 > New text: > Priority: 2 bytes (unsigned integer): =20 > The priority of the channel as described in = [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-data-channel]. The higher the number, the lower the = priority. For use in WebRTC, the values used should be one of 128 = ("extra high"), 256 ("high"), 512 ("normal") or 1024 ("below normal"). To keep things simple: Can we just use weights? So something like: 128 "below normal" 256 "normal" 512 "high" 1024 "extra high" Best regards Michael >=20 > Note that the size of priority here is for the DCEP Open message, so = it doesn't have to be 32-bit even if data-channel allows that range. = (And in fact we're using far less than the entire available range = currently for webrtc, per the text above.) >=20 > I'll respin both drafts. >=20 > --=20 > Randell Jesup -- rjesup a t mozilla d o t com >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb From nobody Wed May 21 08:56:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61C5B1A0103 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:56:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sIlKd7aeC-El for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-x234.google.com (mail-ve0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c01::234]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2AC731A0665 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ve0-f180.google.com with SMTP id db12so2710643veb.25 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:56:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=uKyFEIJHPZQQoi8wQc/YOGk0tFfAqPsl++iaw/B/3cQ=; b=xgYdrdhxsnbOr1t5fekOrmBticKnRX77vuQuw/IXEWzsvHQ5JSNSMpKhA/yDg56Ns+ /uh1Ppvo6GoFR//eammTrxQ+RzyuA7Fr1cYCXQxj/2q/NEiQdTY8Hfi4hZaBcjf2CV2t 8uh2rXYfwcgE6kAIBujDzozfhcnX2H+5irXGNBw60IQ3LEYkXKIiEjim0maB3KVIvAys Ucuj2UVU32NpTuTVEE978m+oDfdlge/l/4aQkxMoYzpr6syzbKzd0nKh7obM4fey4BRT Vf/RoozNlCjmMU+4xhaPEmR4jivcPeOzko/m174DLrF8DtRbUatULLUc4CnAOaBkNYpj PpHg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.90.105 with SMTP id bv9mr999345vdb.61.1400687796395; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:56:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.58.32.165 with HTTP; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:56:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <087443FA-F03D-4633-B451-37A462E5E0EF@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 10:56:36 -0500 Message-ID: From: Mary Barnes To: Eric Rescorla Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1136b2128ba43e04f9eb0a5b Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/mXoujdkiSfQtF-9mLPF32wz7urU Cc: "Cullen Jennings \(fluffy\)" , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] JSEP issues X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 15:56:41 -0000 --001a1136b2128ba43e04f9eb0a5b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > This is just a (much nicer) view on the github issues lists for the > individual drafts in question, namely: > > https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues > https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/security-arch/issues > > You can get to all the relevant stuff from: > https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/ > > I would encourage the chairs to produce a home page for the WG like: > http://http2.github.io/ > [MB] I like that suggestion. In this case, it would be really good to also add this link to the IETF RTCWEB WG wiki. [/MB] > > > -Ekr > > > > > On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 7:35 AM, Mary Barnes wrote: > >> It would be really handy to have this link in the WG wiki since you're >> not using the issue tracker provided on the tools page. You might also >> want to indicate that the video codec stuff on the wiki is now dated. >> >> Thanks, >> Mary. >> >> >> On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 8:51 AM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) < >> fluffy@cisco.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> Quick way to view the status of issues for JSEP >>> >>> https://waffle.io/rtcweb-wg/jsep >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> rtcweb mailing list >>> rtcweb@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> >> > --001a1136b2128ba43e04f9eb0a5b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Eric Rescorla &= lt;ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
= This is just a (much nicer) view on the github issues lists for the
individual drafts in question, namely:

=
http= s://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues
https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/security-arch/issues

You c= an get to all the relevant stuff from:
https://github.com/= rtcweb-wg/

I would enc= ourage the chairs to produce a home page for the WG like:
http= ://http2.github.io/
[MB] I like that suggestion. In this case, it would= be really good to also add this link to the IETF RTCWEB WG wiki. =C2=A0[/M= B]


-Ekr<= /div>




On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 7:35 AM, Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@g= mail.com> wrote:
It would be really handy to have this link in the WG wiki = since you're not using the issue tracker provided on the tools page. = =C2=A0You might also want to indicate that the video codec stuff on the wik= i is now dated.=C2=A0

Thanks,
Mary.


On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 8:51= AM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) <fluffy@cisco.com> wrote:

Quick way to view the status of issues for JSEP

https://waff= le.io/rtcweb-wg/jsep


_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb


_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb



--001a1136b2128ba43e04f9eb0a5b-- From nobody Wed May 21 08:58:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 544D51A0769 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:57:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UCS2ohCTyNDU for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from r2-chicago.webserversystems.com (r2-chicago.webserversystems.com [173.236.101.58]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 544471A0861 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool-71-175-4-197.phlapa.fios.verizon.net ([71.175.4.197]:1946 helo=[192.168.1.12]) by r2-chicago.webserversystems.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1Wn8to-0007ii-1U for rtcweb@ietf.org; Wed, 21 May 2014 10:57:48 -0500 Message-ID: <537CCCD0.7040807@jesup.org> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 11:57:04 -0400 From: Randell Jesup User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <537BDE3A.9050208@jesup.org> <537CB673.9090503@jesup.org> <5272C8E5-2318-40D7-8EBF-103006F8F5E2@fh-muenster.de> In-Reply-To: <5272C8E5-2318-40D7-8EBF-103006F8F5E2@fh-muenster.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - r2-chicago.webserversystems.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jesup.org X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: r2-chicago.webserversystems.com: authenticated_id: randell@jesup.org Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/-HnUQLouFKjADFeCDLR5FGjisWE Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Text for data-channel priority X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 15:57:57 -0000 On 5/21/2014 11:53 AM, Michael Tuexen wrote: > On 21 May 2014, at 16:21, Randell Jesup wrote: > >> New text: >> Priority: 2 bytes (unsigned integer): >> The priority of the channel as described in [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-data-channel]. The higher the number, the lower the priority. For use in WebRTC, the values used should be one of 128 ("extra high"), 256 ("high"), 512 ("normal") or 1024 ("below normal"). > To keep things simple: Can we just use weights? So something like: > > 128 "below normal" > 256 "normal" > 512 "high" > 1024 "extra high" Good by me. Wasn't obvious given it's not in ndata yet which end was up. -- Randell Jesup -- rjesup a t mozilla d o t com From nobody Wed May 21 09:00:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49E661A0878 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 09:00:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zz46YW9ojR-Z for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 09:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-n.franken.de (drew.ipv6.franken.de [IPv6:2001:638:a02:a001:20e:cff:fe4a:feaa]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 117C41A0723 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 09:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.225.7.42] (unknown [194.95.73.101]) (Authenticated sender: macmic) by mail-n.franken.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0C8A1C104D83; Wed, 21 May 2014 18:00:13 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Michael Tuexen In-Reply-To: <537CCCD0.7040807@jesup.org> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 18:00:13 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3213AF06-EBB5-446E-9BBE-1F6E75B48530@lurchi.franken.de> References: <537BDE3A.9050208@jesup.org> <537CB673.9090503@jesup.org> <5272C8E5-2318-40D7-8EBF-103006F8F5E2@fh-muenster.de> <537CCCD0.7040807@jesup.org> To: Randell Jesup X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/v1Lpd7QzeiwgxJ324Xk4h_I9jH4 Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Text for data-channel priority X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 16:00:20 -0000 On 21 May 2014, at 17:57, Randell Jesup wrote: > On 5/21/2014 11:53 AM, Michael Tuexen wrote: >> On 21 May 2014, at 16:21, Randell Jesup = wrote: >>=20 >>> New text: >>> Priority: 2 bytes (unsigned integer): >>> The priority of the channel as described in = [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-data-channel]. The higher the number, the lower the = priority. For use in WebRTC, the values used should be one of 128 = ("extra high"), 256 ("high"), 512 ("normal") or 1024 ("below normal"). >> To keep things simple: Can we just use weights? So something like: >>=20 >> 128 "below normal" >> 256 "normal" >> 512 "high" >> 1024 "extra high" >=20 > Good by me. Wasn't obvious given it's not in ndata yet which end was = up. Sure... This allows just to provide the weights in the API... Best regards Michael >=20 > --=20 > Randell Jesup -- rjesup a t mozilla d o t com >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >=20 From nobody Thu May 22 11:49:28 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECBDC1A02B0 for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 11:49:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JO4Hjh5ATGo8 for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 11:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-f171.google.com (mail-ie0-f171.google.com [209.85.223.171]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F5771A029D for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 11:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f171.google.com with SMTP id to1so4020945ieb.30 for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 11:49:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ozYWJpK1FrNeEATx+9c+7he8/OYnPdrnLBm96IXS6FM=; b=Zh+eFGywQ5Rdd1CIdgdQc9rs+P3jPEfw93nosUd9HcpULKKq/iWiplfCiKKujIN1uj IIkhUo/3+OsrKvSRZFdvdxtvWlN8NcXV/imz1JyJeL5PnJamTxBKSoezpIKi3koiWCfq UfaEJwbezdRJOixVyxOQMxD2kLaJ1oBBc3Us1CuZ4s+VwwfwFmXhU4FG7CFRuzR8DBEr pVojftpDFPbEcwjJBrLIZRTKNhqYdISt9/avuuBzKrx9zW7kPbvP8onSLXADXUI3SRyD j8RmErZ83CY8iIXA8MTsOiH09udTLEDTP6RVtOHzEiYlmr/7mT70ov8ncThN9Vp0b9d9 vgEA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnR2qQsxEHUyqxUPhz9ekJES/jqtX1f7hU8iLqT1xFLh8nnLCn49ueHoJPdSAsoF62IsdQg X-Received: by 10.51.17.99 with SMTP id gd3mr24599691igd.2.1400784562718; Thu, 22 May 2014 11:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (206-248-171-209.dsl.teksavvy.com. [206.248.171.209]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id w4sm15195476igl.7.2014.05.22.11.49.20 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 22 May 2014 11:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <537E46A9.50605@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 14:49:13 -0400 From: cowwoc User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/8nIBnZQSdmhthhlaedak2-WR7to Subject: [rtcweb] STUN vs TURN questions X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 18:49:26 -0000 Hi, Which mailing list is appropriate for asking high-level questions regarding the STUN, TURN protocols? I read online that STUN is expected to be successful in 90-95% of cases but (unless I misunderstood something) the most popular selling router brands ships with symmetric NAT. I just want to understand why my connections are falling back to TURN for most/all cases. One test I ran recently was connecting Asus RT-N66U with the same kind of router, and one cases where the Asus RT-N66U was connected to another router (whose brand I don't remember). How do I find out the type of NAT supported by a given router? It would be nice if the browser or TURN server was logging the kind of NAT detected. Do they? Thanks, Gili From nobody Thu May 22 12:15:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C40A01A02D5 for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 12:15:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6E4_hyE465Ud for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 12:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D1AAD1A02CF for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 12:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 99-152-145-110.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net (99-152-145-110.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.145.110]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.14.8/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s4MJFIXS056924 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 22 May 2014 14:15:19 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) Message-ID: <537E4CC6.80507@nostrum.com> Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 14:15:18 -0500 From: Adam Roach User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: cowwoc , "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: <537E46A9.50605@bbs.darktech.org> In-Reply-To: <537E46A9.50605@bbs.darktech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/28KRski7rTACokIEkQ6DeWWf9ss Subject: Re: [rtcweb] STUN vs TURN questions X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 19:15:28 -0000 On 5/22/14 13:49, cowwoc wrote: > Which mailing list is appropriate for asking high-level questions > regarding the STUN, TURN protocols? TRAM > (unless I misunderstood something) the most popular selling router > brands ships with symmetric NAT. http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-behave-test-results-04#section-4 /a From nobody Thu May 22 13:51:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DF631A037D for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 13:50:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.8 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UsTTALs7Lclo for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 13:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from r2-chicago.webserversystems.com (r2-chicago.webserversystems.com [173.236.101.58]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 732DD1A037A for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 13:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool-71-175-4-197.phlapa.fios.verizon.net ([71.175.4.197]:1321 helo=[192.168.1.12]) by r2-chicago.webserversystems.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1WnZwq-000FOf-D7 for rtcweb@ietf.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 15:50:44 -0500 Message-ID: <537E62F6.90608@jesup.org> Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 16:49:58 -0400 From: Randell Jesup User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <537E46A9.50605@bbs.darktech.org> <537E4CC6.80507@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <537E4CC6.80507@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - r2-chicago.webserversystems.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jesup.org X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: r2-chicago.webserversystems.com: authenticated_id: randell@jesup.org Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/wVcTXEprCAMHBXiEh9jGJMtMImE Subject: Re: [rtcweb] STUN vs TURN questions X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 20:50:54 -0000 On 5/22/2014 3:15 PM, Adam Roach wrote: > On 5/22/14 13:49, cowwoc wrote: > >> Which mailing list is appropriate for asking high-level questions >> regarding the STUN, TURN protocols? > > TRAM > >> (unless I misunderstood something) the most popular selling router >> brands ships with symmetric NAT. > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-behave-test-results-04#section-4 > I'm afraid that's a weeee bit out of date (document 2008, routers from 2004). I hope someone has done a more recent survey or (hint hint) put up a database site where people can annotate (and a tool to test). This has been done for "how do I port-forward on my router" in the past. It does get tricky since some routers may be full-cone if there isn't a collision, then symmetric if they're forced onto another port, and even far more odd weirdnesses (Cullen can give chapter and verse I believe). That said, so many of them share common underpinnings (especially now) that there's a lot of commonality. Without universal TURN (and generally better than TURN when used) port-forwarding can avoid the delay/etc that results from TURN. This requires ability to restrict the port allocations used for webrtc (and when used locks out other devices in the house, or requires you to configure each for a different port range), and other related problems. Having an advanced config in the browser (not in the JS app/etc) for limiting port allocation ranges probably makes sense. There are other tricks (each with issues), but using many of them requires exposing the traffic details (i.e. what it is) to the router, which might or might not make sense. (Port-triggering, etc). Many of these are based on the router being able to infer that a call/communications-channel is being set up and triggering temporary forwards, and that is antithetical to keeping the signaling/etc secure. That doesn't mean the browser couldn't cooperate with the router to get mappings (pcp - bug 845007, UPnP (oh my), etc). Sigh -- Randell Jesup -- rjesup a t mozilla d o t com From nobody Thu May 22 17:49:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBC171A0275 for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 17:49:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UFtOOAj9waFZ for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 17:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E8BE51A0274 for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 17:49:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2185; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1400806158; x=1402015758; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=zns4eaPJ37Q2jvhrkQbaobdFE/CCUsAp75es1Gqc9n0=; b=JXplUJjL5NabZgNF87/wQYzM6x0mzBTEOFEsk06k9INt5V+rxM1NfWUz eKBYXo/yDJjjqFKHgXQ3x0nV9sNFQpbaiiLfpBnuGRdoGLKSJxtNNDetX jbgyleHUY/RhK4/9KW+9z+xjKGLqzSjX/PeuPc5PTEx1hqyNvxkp45BMh U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AkQFAFGaflOtJV2Z/2dsb2JhbABZgwdSxDRRAYEHFnSCJQEBAQMBOjQLBQsLLRlXBhMJiDAIDdcbF419AQEcMwcKgyGBFQSEXgKFQY9QkyaDWB0wgQo X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.98,890,1392163200"; d="scan'208";a="327189465" Received: from rcdn-core-2.cisco.com ([173.37.93.153]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 May 2014 00:49:18 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-128-0-89.cisco.com (dhcp-10-128-0-89.cisco.com [10.128.0.89]) by rcdn-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s4N0nHiw008566; Fri, 23 May 2014 00:49:17 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Dan Wing In-Reply-To: <537E46A9.50605@bbs.darktech.org> Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 17:49:17 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <291660A3-B53E-4ECF-A7A3-941250CD1953@cisco.com> References: <537E46A9.50605@bbs.darktech.org> To: cowwoc X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/8OFhas-ljwcFuSS0WhAG42-ZHI0 Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] STUN vs TURN questions X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 00:49:22 -0000 On May 22, 2014, at 11:49 AM, cowwoc wrote: > Hi, >=20 > Which mailing list is appropriate for asking high-level questions = regarding the STUN, TURN protocols? >=20 > I read online that STUN is expected to be successful in 90-95% of = cases but (unless I misunderstood something) the most popular selling = router brands ships with symmetric NAT. I just want to understand why my = connections are falling back to TURN for most/all cases. TURN is only necessary when *both* peers are behind an = endpoint-depending mapping NAT, or UDP is filtered (such that TURN or = TURN-TCP is outright necessary). The only published statistic I have = found is https://developers.google.com/talk/libjingle/important_concepts = which says a direct (non-TURN) path can be achieved 92% of the time, but = that statistic is old. > One test I ran recently was connecting Asus RT-N66U with the same kind = of router, and one cases where the Asus RT-N66U was connected to another = router (whose brand I don't remember). How do I find out the type of NAT = supported by a given router? >=20 > It would be nice if the browser or TURN server was logging the kind of = NAT detected. Do they? But it can't be done properly. There isn't a "type", as Randell = mentioned. The type can vary under load and can vary when another = internal host wants to use the same port, can change if the port is = allocated by management system (UPnP IGD or GUI), and other factors. It = just doesn't work well. That is why ICE abandoned trying to profile = "what kind of NAT is present" and just tries everything, because that = gives best chance for success. There was a NAT testing tool that Microsoft released which attempted to = classify the NAT, but didn't take into account all of the nuance with = load, port conflicts, etc. It was announced at = http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/msg02117.html but = the URL cited in that post now returns a 404. Another place to ask is BEHAVE, which is the working group that = standardized STUN and TURN. The working group is closed but its mailing = list is still open. -d From nobody Mon May 26 04:29:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC96D1A00F6 for ; Mon, 26 May 2014 04:29:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aHwXoeNSUUGP for ; Mon, 26 May 2014 04:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-4.cisco.com (alln-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.142.91]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC40E1A00EC for ; Mon, 26 May 2014 04:28:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3010; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1401103737; x=1402313337; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=eWPkcpwJJgDHX+L5JWfQGGL66ndptQYb/TvaJ9ARcfA=; b=V0X+ARsJh+Tb/dMDTo12E38NZE/xgBiVnfzqgj6gnU1XieL3Gu4ILRIJ q0uMJyk70yZHwsuNsoy9NW+Dl6MIg3BJpjM9YiodZf7+bx3i/zbLGOoi5 10DaPf6zZF11VlTeKxl9EA72aytgFdK4z4J7i8dAyIk98W8KEAxuDndyS o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AggFABUlg1OtJA2M/2dsb2JhbABZgwdSWME/UQGBDxZ0giUBAQEDAW4LBQsCAQgYFRkyJQIEAQ0FCRKIHwgN2DYXjgEBARwzAgUKgyGBFQSEXgKFB5AMkyeDOGyBCjk X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.98,912,1392163200"; d="scan'208";a="47280049" Received: from alln-core-7.cisco.com ([173.36.13.140]) by alln-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 May 2014 11:28:56 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x13.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x13.cisco.com [173.37.183.87]) by alln-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s4QBSudj026637 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 May 2014 11:28:56 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x06.cisco.com ([169.254.6.164]) by xhc-rcd-x13.cisco.com ([173.37.183.87]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Mon, 26 May 2014 06:28:56 -0500 From: "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" To: "Dan Wing (dwing)" , cowwoc Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] STUN vs TURN questions Thread-Index: AQHPde6TzaAxYSTTWk6Z2e9Vb9OsV5tNqZqAgAVptYA= Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 11:28:55 +0000 Message-ID: References: <537E46A9.50605@bbs.darktech.org> <291660A3-B53E-4ECF-A7A3-941250CD1953@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <291660A3-B53E-4ECF-A7A3-941250CD1953@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.55.154.69] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <30F21D622E496D41BD331ADA6D309F23@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/QeB_GzaRDR9-sZK7nKSCfn_umQo Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] STUN vs TURN questions X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 11:29:04 -0000 On 23 May 2014, at 02:49, Dan Wing wrote: >=20 > On May 22, 2014, at 11:49 AM, cowwoc wrote: >=20 >> Hi, >>=20 >> Which mailing list is appropriate for asking high-level questions regard= ing the STUN, TURN protocols? >>=20 >> I read online that STUN is expected to be successful in 90-95% of cases = but (unless I misunderstood something) the most popular selling router bran= ds ships with symmetric NAT. I just want to understand why my connections a= re falling back to TURN for most/all cases. >=20 Are you doing ICE? STUN alone is not necessarily sufficient to do get media= flowing through your local NAT and the remote NAT. For that to work you ne= ed ICE that punch holes in the NATs in a synchronised way to maximise the c= hances of success.=20 > TURN is only necessary when *both* peers are behind an endpoint-depending= mapping NAT, or UDP is filtered (such that TURN or TURN-TCP is outright ne= cessary). The only published statistic I have found is https://developers.= google.com/talk/libjingle/important_concepts which says a direct (non-TURN)= path can be achieved 92% of the time, but that statistic is old. >=20 For solutions with lots of enterprise networks I have seen numbers in the l= ower half of 80%. But either way the numbers are to large to ignore. Saying= that 8% of the calls will not work for a solution is probably not going to= cut it.=20 >> One test I ran recently was connecting Asus RT-N66U with the same kind o= f router, and one cases where the Asus RT-N66U was connected to another rou= ter (whose brand I don't remember). How do I find out the type of NAT suppo= rted by a given router? >>=20 >> It would be nice if the browser or TURN server was logging the kind of N= AT detected. Do they? >=20 > But it can't be done properly. There isn't a "type", as Randell mentione= d. The type can vary under load and can vary when another internal host wa= nts to use the same port, can change if the port is allocated by management= system (UPnP IGD or GUI), and other factors. It just doesn't work well. = That is why ICE abandoned trying to profile "what kind of NAT is present" a= nd just tries everything, because that gives best chance for success. >=20 We do have two types of NAT. Good NATs and Bad NATs.. :-) > There was a NAT testing tool that Microsoft released which attempted to c= lassify the NAT, but didn't take into account all of the nuance with load, = port conflicts, etc. It was announced at http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/= web/behave/current/msg02117.html but the URL cited in that post now returns= a 404. >=20 > Another place to ask is BEHAVE, which is the working group that standardi= zed STUN and TURN. The working group is closed but its mailing list is sti= ll open. >=20 And if the problem is ICE you have MMUSIC.. Any historical reasons why the NAT traversal work is spread all over the IE= TF? .-. P=E5l-Erik From nobody Mon May 26 05:36:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ABED1A014E for ; Mon, 26 May 2014 05:36:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9PWzHewbU2v4 for ; Mon, 26 May 2014 05:36:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f170.google.com (mail-wi0-f170.google.com [209.85.212.170]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A9281A014C for ; Mon, 26 May 2014 05:36:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f170.google.com with SMTP id bs8so4251864wib.5 for ; Mon, 26 May 2014 05:36:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=eTe5aqd7NrodFRxwG93EO+qo/XmDs/K5olgIjuSQp14=; b=FkIhPinXnfPoePf+hU5xAby5TEoK8F58QaT8z3097diCh6Nf8tKihqQ+xQnKd4cR9F fKnzhou+Itg7xKO6yzNSGM1LbNg/9H4H3tMbRhrVpBwux0gHkZIk8C4IsXrXK9GXHsU6 Dfx78hYw6JUF5QQVN0IHJfk5mnAxvHhSyDhr+rtf31ttmWkHq1jJmeNUYykyD//ly08l FDsCUbMKxsIE3OYpuJm/2v2PbckRwgsnn8XIYdsFut/342dlr6wgkCjvGoPiTQNmSt6z NOFLkGRTZSKVeMicrzaWdLX1U9qex1Z5XblBT6zxv1u9o64y/rSvMfkPpqS2G2WIFNCN Jcrw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmToiIni6x/A4S272gJUDYrGu7kDYx2YV2yxdBqxPyXKwXkdjUhj9IVyqIFYYmTC7DKyjHh X-Received: by 10.180.210.237 with SMTP id mx13mr27684474wic.49.1401107773529; Mon, 26 May 2014 05:36:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.218.198 with HTTP; Mon, 26 May 2014 05:35:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [74.95.2.168] In-Reply-To: References: <537E46A9.50605@bbs.darktech.org> <291660A3-B53E-4ECF-A7A3-941250CD1953@cisco.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 05:35:32 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2586022408804fa4cd3ba Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/U9lTw1mlkuAvyWC_IDLiHlD10XM Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] STUN vs TURN questions X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 12:36:21 -0000 --001a11c2586022408804fa4cd3ba Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 4:28 AM, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) < palmarti@cisco.com> wrote: > > On 23 May 2014, at 02:49, Dan Wing wrote: > > > > > On May 22, 2014, at 11:49 AM, cowwoc wrote: > > > >> Hi, > >> > >> Which mailing list is appropriate for asking high-level questions > regarding the STUN, TURN protocols? > >> > >> I read online that STUN is expected to be successful in 90-95% of cases > but (unless I misunderstood something) the most popular selling router > brands ships with symmetric NAT. I just want to understand why my > connections are falling back to TURN for most/all cases. > > > Are you doing ICE? STUN alone is not necessarily sufficient to do get > media flowing through your local NAT and the remote NAT. For that to work > you need ICE that punch holes in the NATs in a synchronised way to maximise > the chances of success. > > > TURN is only necessary when *both* peers are behind an > endpoint-depending mapping NAT, or UDP is filtered (such that TURN or > TURN-TCP is outright necessary). The only published statistic I have found > is https://developers.google.com/talk/libjingle/important_concepts which > says a direct (non-TURN) path can be achieved 92% of the time, but that > statistic is old. > > > For solutions with lots of enterprise networks I have seen numbers in the > lower half of 80%. But either way the numbers are to large to ignore. > Saying that 8% of the calls will not work for a solution is probably not > going to cut it. > > >> One test I ran recently was connecting Asus RT-N66U with the same kind > of router, and one cases where the Asus RT-N66U was connected to another > router (whose brand I don't remember). How do I find out the type of NAT > supported by a given router? > >> > >> It would be nice if the browser or TURN server was logging the kind of > NAT detected. Do they? > > > > But it can't be done properly. There isn't a "type", as Randell > mentioned. The type can vary under load and can vary when another internal > host wants to use the same port, can change if the port is allocated by > management system (UPnP IGD or GUI), and other factors. It just doesn't > work well. That is why ICE abandoned trying to profile "what kind of NAT > is present" and just tries everything, because that gives best chance for > success. > > > We do have two types of NAT. Good NATs and Bad NATs.. :-) > > > There was a NAT testing tool that Microsoft released which attempted to > classify the NAT, but didn't take into account all of the nuance with load, > port conflicts, etc. It was announced at > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/msg02117.html but the > URL cited in that post now returns a 404. > > > > Another place to ask is BEHAVE, which is the working group that > standardized STUN and TURN. The working group is closed but its mailing > list is still open. > > > And if the problem is ICE you have MMUSIC.. > > > Any historical reasons why the NAT traversal work is spread all over the > IETF? > That's the way IETF tends to do things. In any case, this discussion is not appropriate for RTCWEBB. -Ekr > > --001a11c2586022408804fa4cd3ba Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 4:28 AM, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) <palmar= ti@cisco.com> wrote:

On 23 May 2014, at 02:49, Dan Wing <d= wing@cisco.com> wrote:

>
> On May 22, 2014, at 11:49 AM, cowwoc <cowwoc@bbs.darktech.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Which mailing list is appropriate for asking high-level questions = regarding the STUN, TURN protocols?
>>
>> I read online that STUN is expected to be successful in 90-95% of = cases but (unless I misunderstood something) the most popular selling route= r brands ships with symmetric NAT. I just want to understand why my connect= ions are falling back to TURN for most/all cases.
>
Are you doing ICE? STUN alone is not necessarily sufficient to do get= media flowing through your local NAT and the remote NAT. For that to work = you need ICE that punch holes in the NATs in a synchronised way to maximise= the chances of success.

> TURN is only necessary when *both* peers are behind an endpoint-depend= ing mapping NAT, or UDP is filtered (such that TURN or TURN-TCP is outright= necessary). =C2=A0The only published statistic I have found is https://developers.google.com/talk/libjingle/important_concepts= which says a direct (non-TURN) path can be achieved 92% of the time, but t= hat statistic is old.
>
For solutions with lots of enterprise networks I have seen numbers in= the lower half of 80%. But either way the numbers are to large to ignore. = Saying that 8% of the calls will not work for a solution is probably not go= ing to cut it.

>> One test I ran recently was connecting Asus RT-N66U with the same = kind of router, and one cases where the Asus RT-N66U was connected to anoth= er router (whose brand I don't remember). How do I find out the type of= NAT supported by a given router?
>>
>> It would be nice if the browser or TURN server was logging the kin= d of NAT detected. Do they?
>
> But it can't be done properly. =C2=A0There isn't a "type&= quot;, as Randell mentioned. =C2=A0The type can vary under load and can var= y when another internal host wants to use the same port, can change if the = port is allocated by management system (UPnP IGD or GUI), and other factors= . =C2=A0It just doesn't work well. =C2=A0That is why ICE abandoned tryi= ng to profile "what kind of NAT is present" and just tries everyt= hing, because that gives best chance for success.
>
We do have two types of NAT. Good NATs and Bad NATs.. :-)

> There was a NAT testing tool that Microsoft released which attempted t= o classify the NAT, but didn't take into account all of the nuance with= load, port conflicts, etc. =C2=A0It was announced at = http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/msg02117.html but t= he URL cited in that post now returns a 404.
>
> Another place to ask is BEHAVE, which is the working group that standa= rdized STUN and TURN. =C2=A0The working group is closed but its mailing lis= t is still open.
>
And if the problem is ICE you have MMUSIC..


Any historical reasons why the NAT traversal work is spread all over the IE= TF?

That's the way IETF tends to do= things. In any case, this discussion is not
appropriate for RTCW= EBB.

-Ekr

--001a11c2586022408804fa4cd3ba-- From nobody Wed May 28 04:22:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DE511A093E; Wed, 28 May 2014 04:21:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2asAyYI_SNAT; Wed, 28 May 2014 04:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61F101A00C0; Wed, 28 May 2014 04:21:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.4.2.p3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140528112153.7351.96214.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 04:21:53 -0700 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/qkB245P94rvHONtLDxWXMd6xIfA Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-15.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 11:21:55 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers Working Group of the IETF. Title : Web Real-Time Communication (WebRTC): Media Transport and Use of RTP Authors : Colin Perkins Magnus Westerlund Joerg Ott Filename : draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-15.txt Pages : 44 Date : 2014-05-28 Abstract: The Web Real-Time Communication (WebRTC) framework provides support for direct interactive rich communication using audio, video, text, collaboration, games, etc. between two peers' web-browsers. This memo describes the media transport aspects of the WebRTC framework. It specifies how the Real-time Transport Protocol (RTP) is used in the WebRTC context, and gives requirements for which RTP features, profiles, and extensions need to be supported. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-15 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-15 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed May 28 04:30:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 464C61A0961 for ; Wed, 28 May 2014 04:30:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0w86URxmdcrh for ; Wed, 28 May 2014 04:30:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6BC8C1A008E for ; Wed, 28 May 2014 04:30:02 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f79ed6d000003d40-e0-5385c8b59141 Received: from ESESSHC009.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 9A.CA.15680.5B8C5835; Wed, 28 May 2014 13:29:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.47) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.174.1; Wed, 28 May 2014 13:29:56 +0200 Message-ID: <5385C8AB.8080606@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 13:29:47 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: References: <20140528112153.7351.96214.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20140528112153.7351.96214.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprJLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje7WE63BBhPbNC3W/mtnd2D0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxqbzH1gLFklUPLmX3cDYItzFyMkhIWAiMWHDMRYIW0ziwr31 bF2MXBxCAkcZJS6dO84O4SxnlDh3dCMjSBWvgLbE8d+tYDaLgKpE1+HZzCA2m4CFxM0fjWwg tqhAsMSGh3/ZIeoFJU7OfAK2QURAVOL142msILawgIvE89v7gGo4gBY4SDTPdgAJcwo4Shzf Np0FJCwhIC7R0xgEEmYW0JOYcrWFEcKWl2jeCrFVCOiahqYO1gmMgrOQLJuFpGUWkpYFjMyr GEWLU4uLc9ONjPVSizKTi4vz8/TyUks2MQLD8uCW37o7GFe/djzEKMDBqMTDu+BSS7AQa2JZ cWXuIUZpDhYlcd5LGtXBQgLpiSWp2ampBalF8UWlOanFhxiZODilGhhTVgm31mfZxIV3XUif XexhHKcwWYRvV3Xzed6knuUWjnObA03i1Az+TxV07dz91E0ypypdp3ZqY9IES95mQ1Xu2Nff /Vl+zd4cteOEx+6HisfjzBb1GM38qTNr5+zcOWazP6+Kcrrklbb0SXvi7tdFGo/fu0jciHgX JJTGLJy5a949HdcbykosxRmJhlrMRcWJAGhNeSksAgAA Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/bYrv6Eq8JcaJKPLUT1IWtHyxJ-g Subject: Re: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-15.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 11:30:04 -0000 WG, This version contains some changes as result of last weeks discussion. Especially you who wasn't there should review this to see that you agree with the changes proposed. The changes are: - Multi-stream optimization are now a MAY support, MUST signal to use. - The T_rr_interval = 4 is now explained in draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-multi-stream, so a reference has been added here. - Signalling of extensions has been clarified to be a MUST - The DoS potential from RTCP configuration that Martin Thomson noticed is now discussed and the general consideration that an WebRTC implementation needs safe guards among this is present. WG needs to consider if it needs more or are sufficient. Cheers Magnus On 2014-05-28 13:21, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : Web Real-Time Communication (WebRTC): Media Transport and Use of RTP > Authors : Colin Perkins > Magnus Westerlund > Joerg Ott > Filename : draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-15.txt > Pages : 44 > Date : 2014-05-28 > > Abstract: > The Web Real-Time Communication (WebRTC) framework provides support > for direct interactive rich communication using audio, video, text, > collaboration, games, etc. between two peers' web-browsers. This > memo describes the media transport aspects of the WebRTC framework. > It specifies how the Real-time Transport Protocol (RTP) is used in > the WebRTC context, and gives requirements for which RTP features, > profiles, and extensions need to be supported. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage/ > > There's also a htmlized version available at: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-15 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-15 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Wed May 28 21:07:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D4731A02FC for ; Wed, 28 May 2014 21:07:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lgqc2_jrlH0M for ; Wed, 28 May 2014 21:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pb0-f52.google.com (mail-pb0-f52.google.com [209.85.160.52]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 171301A02EC for ; Wed, 28 May 2014 21:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pb0-f52.google.com with SMTP id rr13so12376563pbb.11 for ; Wed, 28 May 2014 21:07:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=T7NQh/yuMg+BkciGV8SjRaNVsHWabeQOt2pnWrQVXxU=; b=loRCtkv542dBlbYPygjhNgM1hteFxFN3aPZ54LtG/fKLfv/soLRgu1Q+qZNN/m9G36 4jVycUpjpZh/xLmzzcL43QfFMY4EpVftkYEJEgdB89BWS0xXM+YNZUxvy148DtyL/AGQ y85uIqL9Tsu8zIvuGfx71Um/YaVi1Sc/NpgGWDGByjhw5ufszMFcgV9wTGrUriXT4UEa 476GNCHsR7ofJhuY3IvnITH7bhSHNDBGgFLR+d3jHPfWRDPJCU5qczz5Iy0FZJsGrkPU +3kbcgD5HVORmIXIb8h2RRzm/VXXykVzDy3q5KzywtCQHGOzfpk5B0Yr6W4CGQBTFQlr WNMA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlZxoqVRenzi0efzAp8flAPGl+ulkbbWsyXBWbXkfHvam1RtUvIIXBqwDzQN/7qQsUyiyWB X-Received: by 10.67.4.138 with SMTP id ce10mr5407683pad.12.1401336455244; Wed, 28 May 2014 21:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.12] (c-50-186-74-99.hsd1.ut.comcast.net. [50.186.74.99]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id fu12sm97726637pad.42.2014.05.28.21.07.33 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 28 May 2014 21:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5386B284.6060201@jive.com> Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 22:07:32 -0600 From: tshields User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: justin@uberti.name, fluffy@iii.ca, rtcweb@ietf.org X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/vqiaWCFbBvmKcsGD-mnuWhs-Y_w Subject: [rtcweb] Review of draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 04:07:42 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Below are some comments that I have regarding [draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06]. Overall it is very good, understandable, and concise, but I've provided my thoughts on certain sections that were not entirely clear to me. I guess my one comment addressing the document as a whole would be that the examples used in the draft are helpful in explaining certain aspects and therefore even more examples would be even more helpful. + Section 1.1, Paragraph 3, Last Sentence > "This mechanism effectively removes the browser almost completely > from the core signaling flow; the only interface needed is a way > for the application to pass in the local and remote session > descriptions negotiated by whatever signaling mechanism is used, > and a way to interact with the ICE state machine." I think this can be reworded to be clearer and more powerful, something such as: "JSEP removes the browser almost entirely from the core signaling flow. The Javascript application needs interfaces for only (1) passing in local and remote session descriptions and (2) interacting with the ICE state machine." Perhaps the exact wording I've suggested is not ideal, but something that more clearly shows that JSEP removes the browser from the signaling flow and that the application (and therefore, the application's developer) needs to do only two things for establishing a session. The way it is worded now is unclear at first read and does not adequately persuade me why JSEP is awesome (IMO). + Section 3.4.2, Paragraph 1 > "However, to accelerate cases where the browser knows the number of > media streams to use ahead of time" An example of a situation where the browser might know the number of media streams ahead of time might be useful for context here, if one is easily explained. + Section 3.5.1, Paragraph 2 > "... the application can choose to apply it either as a provisional > answer, leaving open the possibility of using a different answer in > the future, or apply it as a final answer, ending the setup flow." How does the application decide whether to apply as provisional or final? Does JSEP care at all or is this left entirely up to the application to decide? This is expounded on somewhat in the 2 paragraphs that follow, but I still don't feel like these questions are completely answered. + Section 3.6, Paragraph 3 (Open Issue) > "[OPEN ISSUE: EKR proposed an alternative rehydration approach > where the actual internal PeerConnection object in the browser was > kept alive for some time after the web page was killed and > provided some way for a new page to acquire the old PeerConnection > object.]" Having some mechanism for keeping the PeerConnection object in the browser would be awesome and I agree that it should be explored further. However, I also think it should not replace the current rehydration method described as this allows the session state to be saved and restored from a server to the Javascript application running in the browser, correct? + Section 4.1.2, Paragraph 2 > "the generated SDP will contain all desired functionality for the > session (certain parts that are supported but not desired by > default may be omitted)" I think this sentence would be clearer if "certain parts that are" was replaced with "functionality that is". + Section 4.1.2, Paragraph 3 > "For each existing stream, the generation of each SDP line must > follow the process defined for generating an updated offer from the > document that specifies the given SDP line." This sentence was too hard to compute in my opinion, and I'm still not quite sure what "the document" refers to. I think rewording would be beneficial. + Section 4.1.4, Paragraph 5 > "The application could choose to accept the initial answers as > provisional answers, and only apply an answer as final when it > receives one that meets its criteria (e.g. a live user instead of > voicemail)." So is it entirely up to the receiver of an answer to decide if an answer should be treated as provisional or final, or does the offerer get to make a suggestion on this matter? Is there any recommendation or requirement on how long an application should keep a pranswer. My point is that an application may set a pranswer anticipating another answer that never comes. Does JSEP care at all about this situation? + Section 4.1.7, Paragraph 2 & Section 4.1.8, Paragraph 2 > "TODO: Do we need to expose accessors for both the current and > proposed local description?" I don't think I can offer much on this issue except to say that it would be nice if you could offer all the necessary functionality without having to expose these accessors to keep it as simple as possible for application developers. + Section 5.1.2, bullet R-2 > "R-2 ICE, as specified in [RFC5245], MUST be used. Note that the > remote endpoint MAY use a Lite implementation." This shouldn't be MAY because it is not referring to an optional implementation specification of JSEP but rather a possible scenario that JSEP needs to support. It should read as just a warning and possibly specify that JSEP MUST be equipped to interface with an endpoint that is using a Lite ICE implementation. + Section 5.2.1, bullet 3 > " o The third SDP line MUST be a "s=" line, as specified in > [RFC4566], Section 5.3; to match the "o=" line, a single dash > SHOULD be used as the session name, e.g. "s=-"." Is there a reason to ignore the following SHOULD from RFC4566? > "If a session has no meaningful name, the value "s= " SHOULD be > used (i.e., a single space as the session name)." It seems like "-" and " " are both equally meaningless, so why deviate from the standard? (I'm also not sure why we need to match it with the username in the o= line). There may be good reason for both of these, but it is not clear to me from reading the draft so I wanted to bring it up. + Section 5.2.1, Paragraph 3 > "The next step is to generate m= sections for each > MediaStreamTrack..." Consider adding: "...as specified in [RFC4566] Section 5.14..." The draft references specific sections for the other SDP fields and I think it is useful here as well. + Section 5.2.1, Paragraph 6, bullet 1 AND Paragraph 7, bullet 11 > "...as indicated in [I-D.ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice], Section > 5.1...." Section 5.1 of [I-D.ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice] did not really clear this point up for me at all. Is using a 'null' port value the same as setting the connection address to "IP 6 ::" (which is mentioned in Section 5.1)? If we wanted to set two m= sections to null port values, how will we do so while maintaining this uniqueness constraint? + Section 5.2.3, Paragraph 1 > "The createOffer method takes as a parameter a MediaConstraints > object. Special processing is performed when generating a SDP > description if the following constraints are present." I think an example of when this would be useful might be nice for context. + Section 5.2.3.1 AND Section 5.2.3.2, Paragraph 1 > "If the "OfferToReceiveVideo" constraint is specified, with a value > of "N", the offer MUST include N non-rejected m= sections with > media type "video",... " The use of "N" is confusing. Is "N" referencing an integer value or a string with value "N". I think removing the quotes around "N" would make it entirely more understandable. + Section 5.3.1, Paragraph 5 > "For each offered m= section of a given media type, if there is a > local MediaStreamTrack of the specified type which has been added > to the PeerConnection via addStream and not yet associated with a > m= section, and the specific m= section is either sendrecv or > recvonly, the MediaStreamTrack is associated with the m= section > at this time." This sentence is long and hard to parse. I think rewording and/or breaking up would be beneficial. + Section 5.3.1, Paragraph 10 > "Note that regardless of the presence of "a=bundle-only" in the > offer, no m= sections in the answer should have an "a=bundle-only" > line." Should this be a SHOULD NOT or is it more just informational? + Section 6, Paragraph 3 > "The following modifications, if done by the browser to a > description between createOffer/createAnswer and the > setLocalDescription, MUST be honored by the browser:" Does this sentence just mean that a browser will honor its own changes to a session description? Perhaps an example of when this might happen would help make the situation a little clearer. - --Nits: + Section 3.2, Paragraph 4 > "...the exact media parameters are only known only after a offer > and an answer have been exchanged..." Should read "only after an offer". + Section 3.4.2, Paragraph 1 > "...the number of media streams to gather candidates for." "... the number of media streams for which to gather candidates." + Section 3.5, Paragraph 1 > "...the media plane which is relevant." Should say, "... the media plane that is relevant." + Section 4.1.5, Paragraph 2 and 3 > "This API changes the local media state" Maybe I'm alone on this but I prefer the following: "Calling this API changes the local media state." The API doesn't do anything on its own, but is a mechanism for calling some action. > "This API indirectly controls..." (Same issue as above) "The candidate gathering process is indirectly controlled through this API." + Section 5.2.1, Paragraph 4 > "Otherwise, it MUST use the same ICE credentials and candidates > that were used in the m= section that it is being bundled into." "into which it is being bundled." + Section 5.2.1, Paragraph 5 > "as a result, they MUST all have the same [RFC4572]fingerprint > value." Space needed after RFC reference. + Section 5.2.1, Paragraph 7, bullet 6 > "... that references the payload type fo the primary codec ..." "of" + Section 5.2.1, Paragraph 7, bullet 11 > "...as specific in [RFC5245]..." "specified" + Section 5.3.1, Paragraph 7 > "...each m= section in the answer should then generated..." "...should then be generated..." + Section 5.3.1, Paragraph 7, bullet 4 > "... and there a local MediaStreamTrack has been associated ..." "... and there is a local MediaStreamTrack that has been associated ..." + Section 5.3.1, Paragraph 7, bullet 5 > "... Section 3, MUST be be supported." "... Section 3, MUST be supported." + Section 5.3.1, Paragraph 7, bullet 6 > "...the payload type fo the primary..." "... the payload type of the primary..." + Section 5.3.1, Paragraph 7, bullet 11 > "... as specific in [RFC5245] ..." "... as specified in ..." Thanks! - -- Troy Shields Developer of Awesome | Jive Communications, Inc. Jive.com | tshields@jive.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJThrKEAAoJEPpHBvvPaXlQjwEQAJ0gOz+wj6YEp++/GD/fbifB 6tA/jXvcF1HHqLLilfHZof7bnWwjYGTzbCFaT21xnouXEb0x1ZEuL2nVvK5CU801 sOJtOJtEavwkbRQffp8ECE4SMZnEUocRFEro1QtV1Lay5EwV86Kn7gqoJCOf8AVJ UuFLrPktJFX9bbWQEXrjHXDjFUj+zvSj23UKAKEvMoLJKoXvuAKadU+UoZcuNBDo SFoBSCsu91F4tE3InUn3uZlMt+GogeikfnPbmc8qdw+p7XzsztZf1oHa6eC8AZiT 6YHEnNHqG7klc9EO/Gr1lfdwTkbnyybbqRUEpQUNURlmqMOD8+Z3V8t3IWFxkdbU 61QMt8TG0N1AVEuIGGU4JaQfqF0kCVgb9H2+UE7hg3jXbT1lavmWLuOwecB79LTQ 4Iemyygz1DG4GmJ/vhpVy++azMQqjEWeRQbaXg5j5gvkUyjb1iAnNlNcl98ZqPli drcsvWraBldIEpxR3cEA3Cgj+dCbJXuGA6SOy6C6xciwib7ZRAeKL40XPdeaSnbg hDXFwuAMOPycpfzpmUIoTQVtAQt8iM2bNyiuVoPnOSFyx/YEh7FyBZg4C/8LW8ZT WiW08Jujr96l2b+8J4ajzRoHgGa7iPCajO3DLxJxncAEZyvQk8+nGNTTVVBoso1Q XstBoLY6o9nE91hnOqle =rkNA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody Fri May 30 11:53:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 596AF1A016D for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 11:53:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.029 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.029 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QC-d-bhvdU2K for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 11:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x233.google.com (mail-vc0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c03::233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A31D61A0164 for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 11:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f179.google.com with SMTP id im17so2588752vcb.10 for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 11:53:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=bYmrJ+HYnepdiFss5UYSOaNfS7oHOzwMSGiS0WUfhls=; b=oDXVGmxXDDmY9SbwKTQHrliptBGB3R6dAoikhc9XarzYlBNeHDrnADrJ8cKmYWVDkE BVPKRt7SSuscPfGiYLmN2W4llfI3G/9hGT+z3Na7WSNSdAawT6RW1vftQSLvUE7w+vGz ppD57MVSQAO2gkGx/r0yJvqOc/JevLB4XpnQ6pAXfMeOd1byxttnXEyO2I9vPFmNa9c8 vzM/g68oep2GQJTGW9CZZAPAAj5nLHrZX/UNd6wlWBF6+98yyIk62lJbf0IiXgOoRyWl 3q5Avz/Ny0Sc4rrOxOGrk01wKicDy0SNek4wBZhL80KinGHz58APkJnAIpc+R1aEXP1M keOQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=bYmrJ+HYnepdiFss5UYSOaNfS7oHOzwMSGiS0WUfhls=; b=IQRbtdcR44GgMZHhcEkSt5SA5aGt61aWqBp/ni/Ter816+ih5d0lnCl6gBk5vCURUa o5g0o1QiHxEh6Hgqq4RPnmZM3CGYVFrEElflYjHfzvTJHCbViSe9v2Xe5FwbNGUg/uBW 4b8H6MBII2+x2gdj+4oMu5TCzUuu44JGfAs1YW+shvMTbEk1GfPdnE744RbjQV+XJxJ7 cIRgXjuBE6s1zTpj49Usald/sprbE/1TNtn1zgtFRhl/XW9esYGeCKcOwHKSwCirdcGN x51ViOhhUaNXiqRRISVGMuIRDYNPZKBozoJRCjAvRE0FaKWRkoxYezdVBqvDo+7d86Qb a7ow== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQktJyE7hK8OtyXgmn+836Lgy8cBlLVZEYI2LcNxoV6WEiAzfzAvakVEmWWO8kVwfSbRoaFG X-Received: by 10.52.27.209 with SMTP id v17mr12905310vdg.23.1401475999710; Fri, 30 May 2014 11:53:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.15.4 with HTTP; Fri, 30 May 2014 11:52:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5386B284.6060201@jive.com> References: <5386B284.6060201@jive.com> From: Justin Uberti Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 11:52:59 -0700 Message-ID: To: tshields , Eric Rescorla Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf307c9bb61fe51604faa28ffb Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rtcweb/eEgYacjYysbrNMJ3gTGmTj9KA1M Cc: Justin Uberti , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Review of draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 18:53:29 -0000 --20cf307c9bb61fe51604faa28ffb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Thanks for the detailed and thorough review. Most of these suggestions are simple and straightforward and we will adjust the document accordingly. I addressed each comment individually below. Look for a new rev of the document in github next week. On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 9:07 PM, tshields wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA512 > > > Below are some comments that I have regarding > [draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06]. Overall it is very good, understandable, > and concise, but I've provided my thoughts on certain sections that > were not entirely clear to me. > > I guess my one comment addressing the document as a whole would be > that the examples used in the draft are helpful in explaining certain > aspects and therefore even more examples would be even more helpful. > > Which particular examples were most useful - the inline hand-wavy descriptions, the API flows, or the example SDP? > > + Section 1.1, Paragraph 3, Last Sentence > > > "This mechanism effectively removes the browser almost completely > > from the core signaling flow; the only interface needed is a way > > for the application to pass in the local and remote session > > descriptions negotiated by whatever signaling mechanism is used, > > and a way to interact with the ICE state machine." > > I think this can be reworded to be clearer and more powerful, something > such as: > > "JSEP removes the browser almost entirely from the core signaling flow. > The Javascript application needs interfaces for only (1) passing in > local and remote session descriptions and (2) interacting with the ICE > state machine." > > Perhaps the exact wording I've suggested is not ideal, but something > that more clearly shows that JSEP removes the browser from the signaling > flow and that the application (and therefore, the application's > developer) needs to do only two things for establishing a session. The > way it is worded now is unclear at first read and does not adequately > persuade me why JSEP is awesome (IMO). > Agree your wording is more direct. We'll rework this part. > > > + Section 3.4.2, Paragraph 1 > > > "However, to accelerate cases where the browser knows the number of > > media streams to use ahead of time" > > An example of a situation where the browser might know the number of > media streams ahead of time might be useful for context here, if one is > easily explained. > > Sure, that makes sense. The typical case here is for an endpoint that wants to be able to quickly set up a received call. The caller has the ability to just start the call and leave it in the local-offer state instead. > > + Section 3.5.1, Paragraph 2 > > > "... the application can choose to apply it either as a provisional > > answer, leaving open the possibility of using a different answer in > > the future, or apply it as a final answer, ending the setup flow." > > How does the application decide whether to apply as provisional or > final? Does JSEP care at all or is this left entirely up to the > application to decide? This is expounded on somewhat in the 2 paragraphs > that follow, but I still don't feel like these questions are completely > answered. > This is an application decision; in JSEP's opinion, forking should overall be avoided. > > > + Section 3.6, Paragraph 3 (Open Issue) > > > "[OPEN ISSUE: EKR proposed an alternative rehydration approach > > where the actual internal PeerConnection object in the browser was > > kept alive for some time after the web page was killed and > > provided some way for a new page to acquire the old PeerConnection > > object.]" > > Having some mechanism for keeping the PeerConnection object in the > browser would be awesome and I agree that it should be explored further. > However, I also think it should not replace the current rehydration > method described as this allows the session state to be saved and > restored from a server to the Javascript application running in the > browser, correct? > The rehydration stuff has proved hard to get right. In the interest of finishing this document, we have removed this section from JSEP. If there is still sufficient interest in this in the future, we can revisit rehydration in an extension document. > > > + Section 4.1.2, Paragraph 2 > > > "the generated SDP will contain all desired functionality for the > > session (certain parts that are supported but not desired by > > default may be omitted)" > > I think this sentence would be clearer if "certain parts that are" was > replaced with "functionality that is". > Agreed. > > > + Section 4.1.2, Paragraph 3 > > > "For each existing stream, the generation of each SDP line must > > follow the process defined for generating an updated offer from the > > document that specifies the given SDP line." > > This sentence was too hard to compute in my opinion, and I'm still not > quite sure what "the document" refers to. I think rewording would be > beneficial. > Agreed. > > > + Section 4.1.4, Paragraph 5 > > > "The application could choose to accept the initial answers as > > provisional answers, and only apply an answer as final when it > > receives one that meets its criteria (e.g. a live user instead of > > voicemail)." > > So is it entirely up to the receiver of an answer to decide if an answer > should be treated as provisional or final, or does the offerer get to > make a suggestion on this matter? Is there any recommendation or > requirement on how long an application should keep a pranswer. My point > is that an application may set a pranswer anticipating another answer > that never comes. Does JSEP care at all about this situation? > The sender of an answer can mark it as pranswer or answer, as can the receiver. In practice though, I expect this to be done by the receiver, as it deals with multiple SIP replies. In the end this is up to the app, and JSEP is This is really up to the app. The things you mention are all issues the app needs to be aware of. > > > + Section 4.1.7, Paragraph 2 & Section 4.1.8, Paragraph 2 > > > "TODO: Do we need to expose accessors for both the current and > > proposed local description?" > > I don't think I can offer much on this issue except to say that it > would be nice if you could offer all the necessary functionality > without having to expose these accessors to keep it as simple as > possible for application developers. > As accessors, I don't think this is really forcing any additional complexity on the developer. And I think they are needed. See https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/16 > > > + Section 5.1.2, bullet R-2 > > > "R-2 ICE, as specified in [RFC5245], MUST be used. Note that the > > remote endpoint MAY use a Lite implementation." > > This shouldn't be MAY because it is not referring to an optional > implementation specification of JSEP but rather a possible scenario that > JSEP needs to support. It should read as just a warning and possibly > specify that JSEP MUST be equipped to interface with an endpoint that is > using a Lite ICE implementation. > Agree. We'll adjust accordingly. > > > + Section 5.2.1, bullet 3 > > > " o The third SDP line MUST be a "s=" line, as specified in > > [RFC4566], Section 5.3; to match the "o=" line, a single dash > > SHOULD be used as the session name, e.g. "s=-"." > > Is there a reason to ignore the following SHOULD from RFC4566? > > > "If a session has no meaningful name, the value "s= " SHOULD be > > used (i.e., a single space as the session name)." > > It seems like "-" and " " are both equally meaningless, so why deviate > from the standard? (I'm also not sure why we need to match it with the > username in the o= line). There may be good reason for both of these, > but it is not clear to me from reading the draft so I wanted to bring > it up. > > It's entirely arbitrary. Since they are meaningless, I figured using similar meaningless values made this more clear than individual meaningless values. We can add some text to make this clear. > > + Section 5.2.1, Paragraph 3 > > > "The next step is to generate m= sections for each > > MediaStreamTrack..." > > Consider adding: "...as specified in [RFC4566] Section 5.14..." The > draft references specific sections for the other SDP fields and I think > it is useful here as well. > Sounds good. > > > + Section 5.2.1, Paragraph 6, bullet 1 AND Paragraph 7, bullet 11 > > > "...as indicated in [I-D.ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice], Section > > 5.1...." > > Section 5.1 of [I-D.ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice] did not really clear this > point up for me at all. Is using a 'null' port value the same as setting > the connection address to "IP 6 ::" (which is mentioned in Section 5.1)? > If we wanted to set two m= sections to null port values, how will we do > so while maintaining this uniqueness constraint? > This is being tracked in https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/41 > > > + Section 5.2.3, Paragraph 1 > > > "The createOffer method takes as a parameter a MediaConstraints > > object. Special processing is performed when generating a SDP > > description if the following constraints are present." > > I think an example of when this would be useful might be nice for context. > I assume you are asking for when each of the individual constraints parameters would be useful. That sounds helpful. > > > + Section 5.2.3.1 AND Section 5.2.3.2, Paragraph 1 > > > "If the "OfferToReceiveVideo" constraint is specified, with a value > > of "N", the offer MUST include N non-rejected m= sections with > > media type "video",... " > > The use of "N" is confusing. Is "N" referencing an integer value or a > string with value "N". I think removing the quotes around "N" would make > it entirely more understandable. > Agreed. Constraints have been replaced with dictionaries, so we can clearly refer to this as an integer var. > > > + Section 5.3.1, Paragraph 5 > > > "For each offered m= section of a given media type, if there is a > > local MediaStreamTrack of the specified type which has been added > > to the PeerConnection via addStream and not yet associated with a > > m= section, and the specific m= section is either sendrecv or > > recvonly, the MediaStreamTrack is associated with the m= section > > at this time." > > This sentence is long and hard to parse. I think rewording and/or > breaking up would be beneficial. > OK. > > > + Section 5.3.1, Paragraph 10 > > > "Note that regardless of the presence of "a=bundle-only" in the > > offer, no m= sections in the answer should have an "a=bundle-only" > > line." > > Should this be a SHOULD NOT or is it more just informational? > It's really just informational, to avoid any confusion. The actual BUNDLE spec will have the exact guidance on this matter. > > > + Section 6, Paragraph 3 > > > "The following modifications, if done by the browser to a > > description between createOffer/createAnswer and the > > setLocalDescription, MUST be honored by the browser:" > > Does this sentence just mean that a browser will honor its own changes > to a session description? Perhaps an example of when this might happen > would help make the situation a little clearer. > This is being tracked in https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/8 > > > - --Nits: > > + Section 3.2, Paragraph 4 > > > "...the exact media parameters are only known only after a offer > > and an answer have been exchanged..." > > Should read "only after an offer". > yep > > > + Section 3.4.2, Paragraph 1 > > > "...the number of media streams to gather candidates for." > > "... the number of media streams for which to gather candidates." > ok, not a fan of ending a sentence with a preposition, I see. I'll go along with this one. > > > + Section 3.5, Paragraph 1 > > > "...the media plane which is relevant." > > Should say, "... the media plane that is relevant." > yep > > > + Section 4.1.5, Paragraph 2 and 3 > > > "This API changes the local media state" > > Maybe I'm alone on this but I prefer the following: "Calling this API > changes the local media state." The API doesn't do anything on its > own, but is a mechanism for calling some action. > > "This API indirectly controls..." > > (Same issue as above) "The candidate gathering process is indirectly > controlled through this API." > Will think this over. Overall, want to be consistent in how the term 'API' is used. > > > + Section 5.2.1, Paragraph 4 > > > "Otherwise, it MUST use the same ICE credentials and candidates > > that were used in the m= section that it is being bundled into." > > "into which it is being bundled." > ok > > > + Section 5.2.1, Paragraph 5 > > > "as a result, they MUST all have the same [RFC4572]fingerprint > > value." > > Space needed after RFC reference. > yep > > > + Section 5.2.1, Paragraph 7, bullet 6 > > > "... that references the payload type fo the primary codec ..." > > "of" > yep > > > + Section 5.2.1, Paragraph 7, bullet 11 > > > "...as specific in [RFC5245]..." > > "specified" > yep > > > + Section 5.3.1, Paragraph 7 > > > "...each m= section in the answer should then generated..." > > "...should then be generated..." > yep > > > + Section 5.3.1, Paragraph 7, bullet 4 > > > "... and there a local MediaStreamTrack has been associated ..." > > "... and there is a local MediaStreamTrack that has been associated ..." > indeed, not my best work > > > + Section 5.3.1, Paragraph 7, bullet 5 > > > "... Section 3, MUST be be supported." > > "... Section 3, MUST be supported." > yep > > > + Section 5.3.1, Paragraph 7, bullet 6 > > > "...the payload type fo the primary..." > > "... the payload type of the primary..." > yep > > > + Section 5.3.1, Paragraph 7, bullet 11 > > > "... as specific in [RFC5245] ..." > > "... as specified in ..." > yep > > > Thanks! > > - -- > Troy Shields > Developer of Awesome | Jive Communications, Inc. > Jive.com | tshields@jive.com > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) > Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ > > iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJThrKEAAoJEPpHBvvPaXlQjwEQAJ0gOz+wj6YEp++/GD/fbifB > 6tA/jXvcF1HHqLLilfHZof7bnWwjYGTzbCFaT21xnouXEb0x1ZEuL2nVvK5CU801 > sOJtOJtEavwkbRQffp8ECE4SMZnEUocRFEro1QtV1Lay5EwV86Kn7gqoJCOf8AVJ > UuFLrPktJFX9bbWQEXrjHXDjFUj+zvSj23UKAKEvMoLJKoXvuAKadU+UoZcuNBDo > SFoBSCsu91F4tE3InUn3uZlMt+GogeikfnPbmc8qdw+p7XzsztZf1oHa6eC8AZiT > 6YHEnNHqG7klc9EO/Gr1lfdwTkbnyybbqRUEpQUNURlmqMOD8+Z3V8t3IWFxkdbU > 61QMt8TG0N1AVEuIGGU4JaQfqF0kCVgb9H2+UE7hg3jXbT1lavmWLuOwecB79LTQ > 4Iemyygz1DG4GmJ/vhpVy++azMQqjEWeRQbaXg5j5gvkUyjb1iAnNlNcl98ZqPli > drcsvWraBldIEpxR3cEA3Cgj+dCbJXuGA6SOy6C6xciwib7ZRAeKL40XPdeaSnbg > hDXFwuAMOPycpfzpmUIoTQVtAQt8iM2bNyiuVoPnOSFyx/YEh7FyBZg4C/8LW8ZT > WiW08Jujr96l2b+8J4ajzRoHgGa7iPCajO3DLxJxncAEZyvQk8+nGNTTVVBoso1Q > XstBoLY6o9nE91hnOqle > =rkNA > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --20cf307c9bb61fe51604faa28ffb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the detailed and thorough review. Most of these= suggestions are simple and straightforward and we will adjust the document= accordingly. I addressed each comment individually below.

Look for a new rev of the document in github next week.

On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 9:07 PM, = tshields <tshields@jive.com> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512


Below are some comments that I have regarding
[draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-06]. Overall it is very good, understandable,
and concise, but I've provided my thoughts on certain sections that
were not entirely clear to me.

I guess my one comment addressing the document as a whole would be
that the examples used in the draft are helpful in explaining certain
aspects and therefore even more examples would be even more helpful.

Which particular examples were most useful - the inli= ne hand-wavy descriptions, the API flows, or the example SDP?
=C2= =A0

+ Section 1.1, Paragraph 3, Last Sentence

> "This mechanism effectively removes the browser almost completely=
> from the core signaling flow; the only interface needed is a way
> for the application to pass in the local and remote session
> descriptions negotiated by whatever signaling mechanism is used,
> and a way to interact with the ICE state machine."

I think this can be reworded to be clearer and more powerful, something
such as:

"JSEP removes the browser almost entirely from the core signaling flow= .
The Javascript application needs interfaces for only (1) passing in
local and remote session descriptions and (2) interacting with the ICE
state machine."

Perhaps the exact wording I've suggested is not ideal, but something that more clearly shows that JSEP removes the browser from the signaling flow and that the application (and therefore, the application's
developer) needs to do only two things for establishing a session. The
way it is worded now is unclear at first read and does not adequately
persuade me why JSEP is awesome (IMO).

= Agree your wording is more direct. We'll rework this part.=C2=A0
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;pa= dding-left:1ex">

+ Section 3.4.2, Paragraph 1

> "However, to accelerate cases where the browser knows the number = of
> media streams to use ahead of time"

An example of a situation where the browser might know the number of
media streams ahead of time might be useful for context here, if one is
easily explained.


Sure, that makes sense. The typical ca= se here is for an endpoint that wants to be able to quickly set up a receiv= ed call. The caller has the ability to just start the call and leave it in = the local-offer state instead.
=C2=A0

+ Section 3.5.1, Paragraph 2

> "... the application can choose to apply it either as a provision= al
> answer, leaving open the possibility of using a different answer in > the future, or apply it as a final answer, ending the setup flow."= ;

How does the application decide whether to apply as provisional or
final? Does JSEP care at all or is this left entirely up to the
application to decide? This is expounded on somewhat in the 2 paragraphs that follow, but I still don't feel like these questions are completely=
answered.

This is an application decisi= on; in JSEP's opinion, forking should overall be avoided.


+ Section 3.6, Paragraph 3 (Open Issue)

> "[OPEN ISSUE: EKR proposed an alternative rehydration approach > where the actual internal PeerConnection object in the browser was
> kept alive for some time after the web page was killed and
> provided some way for a new page to acquire the old PeerConnection
> object.]"

Having some mechanism for keeping the PeerConnection object in the
browser would be awesome and I agree that it should be explored further. However, I also think it should not replace the current rehydration
method described as this allows the session state to be saved and
restored from a server to the Javascript application running in the
browser, correct?

The rehydration stuff= has proved hard to get right. In the interest of finishing this document, = we have removed this section from JSEP. If there is still sufficient intere= st in this in the future, we can revisit rehydration in an extension docume= nt.


+ Section 4.1.2, Paragraph 2

> "the generated SDP will contain all desired functionality for the=
> session (certain parts that are supported but not desired by
> default may be omitted)"

I think this sentence would be clearer if "certain parts that are"= ; was
replaced with "functionality that is".

<= /div>
Agreed.=C2=A0


+ Section 4.1.2, Paragraph 3

> "For each existing stream, the generation of each SDP line must > follow the process defined for generating an updated offer from the > document that specifies the given SDP line."

This sentence was too hard to compute in my opinion, and I'm still not<= br> quite sure what "the document" refers to. I think rewording would= be
beneficial.

Agreed.=C2=A0


+ Section 4.1.4, Paragraph 5

> "The application could choose to accept the initial answers as > provisional answers, and only apply an answer as final when it
> receives one that meets its criteria (e.g. a live user instead of
> voicemail)."

So is it entirely up to the receiver of an answer to decide if an answer should be treated as provisional or final, or does the offerer get to
make a suggestion on this matter? Is there any recommendation or
requirement on how long an application should keep a pranswer. My point
is that an application may set a pranswer anticipating another answer
that never comes. Does JSEP care at all about this situation?

The sender of an answer can mark it as pranswer or a= nswer, as can the receiver. In practice though, I expect this to be done by= the receiver, as it deals with multiple SIP replies. In the end this is up= to the app, and JSEP is This is really up to the app. The things you menti= on are all issues the app needs to be aware of.=C2=A0


+ Section 4.1.7, Paragraph 2 & Section 4.1.8, Paragraph 2

> "TODO: Do we need to expose accessors for both the current and > proposed local description?"

I don't think I can offer much on this issue except to say that it
would be nice if you could offer all the necessary functionality
without having to expose these accessors to keep it as simple as
possible for application developers.

As= accessors, I don't think this is really forcing any additional complex= ity on the developer. And I think they are needed. See=C2=A0https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/= issues/16


+ Section 5.1.2, bullet R-2

> "R-2 =C2=A0ICE, as specified in [RFC5245], MUST be used. =C2=A0No= te that the
> remote endpoint MAY use a Lite implementation."

This shouldn't be MAY because it is not referring to an optional
implementation specification of JSEP but rather a possible scenario that JSEP needs to support. It should read as just a warning and possibly
specify that JSEP MUST be equipped to interface with an endpoint that is using a Lite ICE implementation.

Agree.= We'll adjust accordingly.=C2=A0


+ Section 5.2.1, bullet 3

> " =C2=A0 o =C2=A0The third SDP line MUST be a "s=3D" li= ne, as specified in
> [RFC4566], Section 5.3; to match the "o=3D" line, a single d= ash
> SHOULD be used as the session name, e.g. "s=3D-"."

Is there a reason to ignore the following SHOULD from RFC4566?

> "If a session has no meaningful name, the value "s=3D "= SHOULD be
> used (i.e., a single space as the session name)."

It seems like "-" and " " are both equally meaningless,= so why deviate
from the standard? (I'm also not sure why we need to match it with the<= br> username in the o=3D line). There may be good reason for both of these,
but it is not clear to me from reading the draft so I wanted to bring
it up.

It's entirely arbitrary. Since they are meaningle= ss, I figured using similar meaningless values made this more clear than in= dividual meaningless values. We can add some text to make this clear.

+ Section 5.2.1, Paragraph 3

> "The next step is to generate m=3D sections for each
> MediaStreamTrack..."

Consider adding: "...as specified in [RFC4566] Section 5.14..." T= he
draft references specific sections for the other SDP fields and I think
it is useful here as well.

Sounds good.= =C2=A0


+ Section 5.2.1, Paragraph 6, bullet 1 AND Paragraph 7, bullet 11

> "...as indicated in [I-D.ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice], Section
> 5.1...."

Section 5.1 of [I-D.ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice] did not really clear this
point up for me at all. Is using a 'null' port value the same as se= tting
the connection address to "IP 6 ::" (which is mentioned in Sectio= n 5.1)?
If we wanted to set two m=3D sections to null port values, how will we do so while maintaining this uniqueness constraint?

<= /div>

+ Section 5.2.3, Paragraph 1

> "The createOffer method takes as a parameter a MediaConstraints > object. =C2=A0Special processing is performed when generating a SDP > description if the following constraints are present."

I think an example of when this would be useful might be nice for context.<= br>

I assume you are asking for when each o= f the individual constraints parameters would be useful. That sounds helpfu= l.


+ Section 5.2.3.1 AND Section 5.2.3.2, Paragraph 1

> "If the "OfferToReceiveVideo" constraint is specified, = with a value
> of "N", the offer MUST include N non-rejected m=3D sections = with
> media type "video",... "

The use of "N" is confusing. Is "N" referencing an inte= ger value or a
string with value "N". I think removing the quotes around "N= " would make
it entirely more understandable.

Agreed= . Constraints have been replaced with dictionaries, so we can clearly refer= to this as an integer var.=C2=A0


+ Section 5.3.1, Paragraph 5

> "For each offered m=3D section of a given media type, if there is= a
> local MediaStreamTrack of the specified type which has been added
> to the PeerConnection via addStream and not yet associated with a
> m=3D section, and the specific m=3D section is either sendrecv or
> recvonly, the MediaStreamTrack is associated with the m=3D section
> at this time."

This sentence is long and hard to parse. I think rewording and/or
breaking up would be beneficial.

OK.=C2= =A0


+ Section 5.3.1, Paragraph 10

> "Note that regardless of the presence of "a=3Dbundle-only&qu= ot; in the
> offer, no m=3D sections in the answer should have an "a=3Dbundle-= only"
> line."

Should this be a SHOULD NOT or is it more just informational?

It's really just informational, to avoid any con= fusion. The actual BUNDLE spec will have the exact guidance on this matter.= =C2=A0


+ Section 6, Paragraph 3

> "The following modifications, if done by the browser to a
> description between createOffer/createAnswer and the
> setLocalDescription, MUST be honored by the browser:"

Does this sentence just mean that a browser will honor its own changes
to a session description? Perhaps an example of when this might happen
would help make the situation a little clearer.

This is being tracked in=C2=A0https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/issues/8


- --Nits:

+ Section 3.2, Paragraph 4

> "...the exact media parameters are only known only after a offer<= br> > and an answer have been exchanged..."

Should read "only after an offer".

yep=C2=A0


+ Section 3.4.2, Paragraph 1

> "...the number of media streams to gather candidates for."
"... the number of media streams for which to gather candidates."=

ok, not a fan of ending a sentence wit= h a preposition, I see. I'll go along with this one.=C2=A0


+ Section 3.5, Paragraph 1

> "...the media plane which is relevant."

Should say, "... the media plane that is relevant."

yep=C2=A0


+ Section 4.1.5, Paragraph 2 and 3

> "This API changes the local media state"

Maybe I'm alone on this but I prefer the following: "Calling this = API
changes the local media state." The API doesn't do anything on its=
own, but is a mechanism for calling some action.=C2=A0

> "This API indirectly controls..."

(Same issue as above) "The candidate gathering process is indirectly controlled through this API."

Will= think this over. Overall, want to be consistent in how the term 'API&#= 39; is used.=C2=A0


+ Section 5.2.1, Paragraph 4

> "Otherwise, it MUST use the same ICE credentials and candidates > that were used in the m=3D section that it is being bundled into."= ;

"into which it is being bundled."

=
ok=C2=A0


+ Section 5.2.1, Paragraph 5

> "as a result, they MUST all have the same [RFC4572]fingerprint > value."

Space needed after RFC reference.

yep= =C2=A0


+ Section 5.2.1, Paragraph 7, bullet 6

> "... that references the payload type fo the primary codec ...&qu= ot;

"of"

yep=C2=A0


+ Section 5.2.1, Paragraph 7, bullet 11

> "...as specific in [RFC5245]..."

"specified"

yep=C2=A0


+ Section 5.3.1, Paragraph 7

> "...each m=3D section in the answer should then generated..."= ;

"...should then be generated..."

<= div>yep=C2=A0


+ Section 5.3.1, Paragraph 7, bullet 4

> "... and there a local MediaStreamTrack has been associated ...&q= uot;

"... and there is a local MediaStreamTrack that has been associated ..= ."

indeed, not my best work
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;pa= dding-left:1ex">

+ Section 5.3.1, Paragraph 7, bullet 5

> "... Section 3, MUST be be supported."

"... Section 3, MUST be supported."

yep=C2=A0


+ Section 5.3.1, Paragraph 7, bullet 6

> "...the payload type fo the primary..."

"... the payload type of the primary..."
yep=C2=A0


+ Section 5.3.1, Paragraph 7, bullet 11

> "... as specific in [RFC5245] ..."

"... as specified in ..."

yep= =C2=A0


Thanks!

- --
Troy Shields
Developer of Awesome | Jive Communications, Inc.
Jive.com | tshields@jive.com


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