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From: Daniel Migault via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
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Subject: [secdir] Secdir telechat review of draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-13
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Reviewer: Daniel Migault
Review result: Ready

I reviewed this document as part of the Security Directorate's ongoing effort to
review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These comments were
written primarily for the benefit of the Security Area Directors.  Document
authors, document editors, and WG chairs should treat these comments just like
any other IETF Last Call comments.  Please note also that my expertise in BGP is
limited, so feel free to take these comments with a pitch of salt. 

Review Results: Ready

My comments of version 11 have been addressed.

Yours,
Daniel



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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 19:08:12 -0800
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To: Daniel Migault <daniel.migault@ericsson.com>
Cc: secdir@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org, BESS <bess@ietf.org>,  draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover.all@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [secdir] Secdir telechat review of draft-ietf-bess-mvpn-fast-failover-13
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--0000000000005483d705b5728e96
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Hi Daniel,
thank you for the review and your thoughtful comments that helped to
improve the document.

Regards,
Greg

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 7:06 PM Daniel Migault via Datatracker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> Reviewer: Daniel Migault
> Review result: Ready
>
> I reviewed this document as part of the Security Directorate's ongoing
> effort to
> review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These comments were
> written primarily for the benefit of the Security Area Directors.  Document
> authors, document editors, and WG chairs should treat these comments just
> like
> any other IETF Last Call comments.  Please note also that my expertise in
> BGP is
> limited, so feel free to take these comments with a pitch of salt.
>
> Review Results: Ready
>
> My comments of version 11 have been addressed.
>
> Yours,
> Daniel
>
>
>

--0000000000005483d705b5728e96
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Daniel,<div>thank you for the review and your thoughtfu=
l comments that helped to improve the document.</div><div><br></div><div>Re=
gards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D=
"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 7:06 PM Daniel Migault vi=
a Datatracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org">noreply@ietf.org</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Revie=
wer: Daniel Migault<br>
Review result: Ready<br>
<br>
I reviewed this document as part of the Security Directorate&#39;s ongoing =
effort to<br>
review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.=C2=A0 These comments=
 were<br>
written primarily for the benefit of the Security Area Directors.=C2=A0 Doc=
ument<br>
authors, document editors, and WG chairs should treat these comments just l=
ike<br>
any other IETF Last Call comments.=C2=A0 Please note also that my expertise=
 in BGP is<br>
limited, so feel free to take these comments with a pitch of salt. <br>
<br>
Review Results: Ready<br>
<br>
My comments of version 11 have been addressed.<br>
<br>
Yours,<br>
Daniel<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000005483d705b5728e96--


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From: Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 15:49:38 +0000
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To: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
Cc: Yoav Nir <ynir.ietf@gmail.com>, secdir@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org,  IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-quic-invariants.all@ietf.org,  Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
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Subject: Re: [secdir] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-quic-invariants-11
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Hello,

As mentioned previously, review comments raised during the secdir
invariants review were captured as issues on the QUIC WG GitHub repository.
These issues have been assessed by the document editor(s) and shepherd,
please see each individual issue for more-specific discussion. As a
summary, the following resolutions for issues are:

Close with no action
====================
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4305

Kinds regards
Lars and Lucas
QUIC WG Co-chairs

--0000000000007a28cd05b57d317e
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hello,</div><div><br></div><div>As m=
entioned previously, review comments raised during the secdir invariants re=
view were captured as issues on the QUIC WG GitHub repository. These issues=
 have been assessed by the document editor(s) and shepherd, please see each=
 individual issue for more-specific discussion. As a summary, the following=
 resolutions for issues are:<br><br>Close with no action<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br><a href=3D"https://github.=
com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4305">https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/i=
ssues/4305</a><br><br></div><div>Kinds regards</div><div>Lars and Lucas<br>=
</div><div>QUIC WG Co-chairs<br></div></div></div>

--0000000000007a28cd05b57d317e--


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From: Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 15:56:36 +0000
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To: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
Cc: Radia Perlman <radiaperlman@gmail.com>, secdir@ietf.org, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>,  draft-ietf-quic-tls.all@ietf.org, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>,  Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
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Subject: Re: [secdir] Secdir review of draft-ietf-quic-tls-48
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Hello,

As mentioned previously, review comments raised during the secdir tls
review were captured as issues on the QUIC WG GitHub repository. These
issues have been assessed by the document editor(s) and shepherd, please
see each individual issue for more-specific discussion. As a summary, the
following resolutions for issues are:

Close with no action
====================
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4323

Kinds regards
Lars and Lucas
QUIC WG Co-chairs

On Mon, Nov 2, 2020 at 7:42 AM Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> wrote:

> Hi Radia,
>
> thank you for the review. I've opened a GitHub issue for any discussion
> related to this review: https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4323
>
> There is also a milestone at
> https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/milestone/7.
>
> Thanks,
> Lars
>
> > On 2020-11-1, at 4:40, Radia Perlman <radiaperlman@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's
> ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.
> These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area
> directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just
> like any other last call comments.
> >
> > This document specifies the cryptographic exchanges and formats
> associated with the QUIC protocol, which in turn is an ambitious protocol
> that could over time replace TCP. quic-transport, quic-tls, and
> quic-recovery represent a triple of I-Ds that are always used together and
> could be combined into a single spec, though the length of the existing
> specs is already daunting. In many cases, it is impossible to evaluate them
> independently.
> >
> > As an interested outsider, I see these protocols as exceptionally well
> designed and the specs exceptionally well written. I could not find even
> any nits in a very long spec.
> >
> > It is misleading to regard this as a specification of running QUIC over
> TLS. It is related to TLS in the same way that DTLS is related to TLS: it
> imports much of the syntax, but there are many differences and its security
> must be evaluated largely independently. My initial reaction to this spec
> was to wonder why it did not simply run QUIC over DTLS . I believe the
> answer is that careful integration improves the performance and is
> necessary for some of the address agility/transition design.
> >
> > Given its potential importance, this deserves a thorough review by our
> best security people. Fortunately, from the acknowledgements list, it
> appears it has gotten that.
> >
> > There are a few aspects of the design that might raise eyebrows. For
> example:
> >
> > 1) TLS exchanges start out in cleartext until a key can be negotiated.
> QUIC data is always encrypted. The initial packets are encrypted with fixed
> keys whose derivation is specified in the I-D until fresh keys are
> negotiated. This isn't a security problem...it will just surprise people.
> >
> > 2) Applications using TLS can usually be configured to run over TCP in
> contexts where cryptographic protection is not needed. (e.g., use HTTP
> instead of HTTPS). Applications using QUIC cannot. That is likely to mean
> in practice that it will more frequently be the case that applications
> using QUIC will need to connect to servers without certificates signed by a
> CA trusted by the client (because that's the substitute when connecting to
> a server without a certificate). It's not clear what the spec should say
> about that, but perhaps the problem should be acknowledged.
> >
> > Radia
> >
>
>

--000000000000706ad505b57d4a18
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hello,</div><div><br></div><div>As mentioned previous=
ly, review comments raised during the secdir tls review were captured as is=
sues on the QUIC WG GitHub repository. These issues have been assessed by t=
he document editor(s) and shepherd, please see each individual issue for mo=
re-specific discussion. As a summary, the following resolutions for issues =
are:<br><br>Close with no action<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br><a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/i=
ssues/4323">https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4323</a><br><br>Ki=
nds regards<br>Lars and Lucas<br>QUIC WG Co-chairs</div></div><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Nov 2, 2020=
 at 7:42 AM Lars Eggert &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lars@eggert.org">lars@eggert.=
org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1e=
x">Hi Radia,<br>
<br>
thank you for the review. I&#39;ve opened a GitHub issue for any discussion=
 related to this review: <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/i=
ssues/4323" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/quicwg/=
base-drafts/issues/4323</a><br>
<br>
There is also a milestone at <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-draf=
ts/milestone/7" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/qui=
cwg/base-drafts/milestone/7</a>.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Lars<br>
<br>
&gt; On 2020-11-1, at 4:40, Radia Perlman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:radiaperlma=
n@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">radiaperlman@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate&#39;=
s ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.=
=C2=A0 These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the securit=
y area directors.=C2=A0 Document editors and WG chairs should treat these c=
omments just like any other last call comments.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This document specifies the cryptographic exchanges and formats associ=
ated with the QUIC protocol, which in turn is an ambitious protocol that co=
uld over time replace TCP. quic-transport, quic-tls, and quic-recovery repr=
esent a triple of I-Ds that are always used together and could be combined =
into a single spec, though the length of the existing specs is already daun=
ting. In many cases, it is impossible to evaluate them independently.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; As an interested outsider, I see these protocols as exceptionally well=
 designed and the specs exceptionally well written. I could not find even a=
ny nits in a very long spec.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; It is misleading to regard this as a specification of running QUIC ove=
r TLS. It is related to TLS in the same way that DTLS is related to TLS: it=
 imports much of the syntax, but there are many differences and its securit=
y must be evaluated largely independently. My initial reaction to this spec=
 was to wonder why it did not simply run QUIC over DTLS . I believe the ans=
wer is that careful integration improves the performance and is necessary f=
or some of the address agility/transition design.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Given its potential importance, this deserves a thorough review by our=
 best security people. Fortunately, from the acknowledgements list, it appe=
ars it has gotten that.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; There are a few aspects of the design that might raise eyebrows. For e=
xample:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; 1) TLS exchanges start out in cleartext until a key can be negotiated.=
 QUIC data is always encrypted. The initial packets are encrypted with fixe=
d keys whose derivation is specified in the I-D until fresh keys are negoti=
ated. This isn&#39;t a security problem...it will just surprise people.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; 2) Applications using TLS can usually be configured to run over TCP in=
 contexts where cryptographic protection is not needed. (e.g., use HTTP ins=
tead of HTTPS). Applications using QUIC cannot. That is likely to mean in p=
ractice that it will more frequently be the case that applications using QU=
IC will need to connect to servers without certificates signed by a CA trus=
ted by the client (because that&#39;s the substitute when connecting to a s=
erver without a certificate). It&#39;s not clear what the spec should say a=
bout that, but perhaps the problem should be acknowledged.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Radia<br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000706ad505b57d4a18--


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From: Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 15:58:41 +0000
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To: Derrell Piper <ddp@electric-loft.org>
Cc: secdir@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org, draft-ietf-quic-recovery.all@ietf.org, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
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--000000000000ec324605b57d5191
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Hello,

As mentioned previously, review comments raised during the secdir recovery
review were captured as issues on the QUIC WG GitHub repository. These
issues have been assessed by the document editor(s) and shepherd, please
see each individual issue for more-specific discussion. As a summary, the
following resolutions for issues are:

Addressed via Pull Request, changes will appear in the next I-D
=======================================================
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4324
 - https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4340


Kinds regards
Lars and Lucas
QUIC WG Co-chairs

--000000000000ec324605b57d5191
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hello,</div><div><br></div><div>As mentioned previous=
ly, review comments raised during the secdir recovery review were captured =
as issues on the QUIC WG GitHub repository. These issues have been assessed=
 by the document editor(s) and shepherd, please see each individual issue f=
or more-specific discussion. As a summary, the following resolutions for is=
sues are:</div><br>Addressed via Pull Request, changes will appear in the n=
ext I-D<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br><a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-dr=
afts/issues/4324">https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/4324</a><br>=
=C2=A0- <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4340">https:/=
/github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/4340</a><br>=C2=A0<br>=C2=A0<br>Kinds r=
egards<br>Lars and Lucas<br>QUIC WG Co-chairs</div>

--000000000000ec324605b57d5191--


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Subject: [secdir] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-dnsop-server-cookies-04
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Reviewer: Stephen Farrell
Review result: Has Issues

I see two issues here worth checking:

1. I don't recall SipHash being used as a MAC in
any IETF standard before. We normally use HMAC,
even if truncated. Why make this change and was
that checked with e.g. CFRG? (And the URL given
in the reference gets me a 404.)

2. Is it really a good idea to use a 32 bit seconds
since 1970-01-01 in 2020? I'd have thought that e.g.
a timestamp in hours since then or seconds since
some date in 2020 would be better.

Here's a couple of nits too:
- section 1: what's a "strong cookie"?
- "gallimaufry" - cute! but not sure it'll help readers to learn that word.





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To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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Subject: Re: [secdir] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-dnsop-server-cookies-04
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Stephen,

ad 1) the performance is crucial for DNS over UDP and PRF such as SipHash is=
 more efficient than HMACs. No, it wasn=E2=80=99t consulted with CFRG, and I=
 can=E2=80=99t speak for Willem, but I am confident enough to make the decis=
ion. SipHash is widely used for hash tables virtually anywhere now.

ad 2) we need a value that=E2=80=99s synchronized well enough and monotonic.=
 I honestly don=E2=80=99t see any value in using 64-bit value here. Using un=
ixtime has a value in itself, it=E2=80=99s a well-known and there=E2=80=99s a=
 little room for any implementor to make a mistake in an implementation. The=
 interoperability is more important than the actual value of the counter. It=
=E2=80=99s write only counter, nobody is going to interpret it after it has b=
een generated, and it=E2=80=99s wide enough to prevent brute forcing.

Cheers,
Ond=C5=99ej
--
Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD =E2=80=94 ISC (He/Him)

> On 2. 12. 2020, at 18:47, Stephen Farrell via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.or=
g> wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFReviewer: Stephen Farrell
> Review result: Has Issues
>=20
> I see two issues here worth checking:
>=20
> 1. I don't recall SipHash being used as a MAC in
> any IETF standard before. We normally use HMAC,
> even if truncated. Why make this change and was
> that checked with e.g. CFRG? (And the URL given
> in the reference gets me a 404.)
>=20
> 2. Is it really a good idea to use a 32 bit seconds
> since 1970-01-01 in 2020? I'd have thought that e.g.
> a timestamp in hours since then or seconds since
> some date in 2020 would be better.
>=20
> Here's a couple of nits too:
> - section 1: what's a "strong cookie"?
> - "gallimaufry" - cute! but not sure it'll help readers to learn that word=
.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20


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From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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Hiya,

On 02/12/2020 18:25, Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD wrote:
> Stephen,
>=20
> ad 1) the performance is crucial for DNS over UDP and PRF such as
> SipHash is more efficient than HMACs. No, it wasn=E2=80=99t consulted w=
ith
> CFRG, and I can=E2=80=99t speak for Willem, but I am confident enough t=
o make
> the decision. SipHash is widely used for hash tables virtually
> anywhere now.

The text says that you need a MAC though. Personally, I
think it'd be wiser to (double-)check before using novel
crypto even if the only novelty is use in a standards
track RFC.

>=20
> ad 2) we need a value that=E2=80=99s synchronized well enough and monot=
onic.
> I honestly don=E2=80=99t see any value in using 64-bit value here. Usin=
g
> unixtime has a value in itself, it=E2=80=99s a well-known and there=E2=80=
=99s a
> little room for any implementor to make a mistake in an
> implementation. The interoperability is more important than the
> actual value of the counter. It=E2=80=99s write only counter, nobody is=
 going
> to interpret it after it has been generated, and it=E2=80=99s wide enou=
gh to
> prevent brute forcing.

So what happens after 2038? That's really not v. far in the
future any more.

Cheers,
S.

>=20
> Cheers, Ond=C5=99ej -- Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD =E2=80=94 ISC (He/Him)
>=20
>> On 2. 12. 2020, at 18:47, Stephen Farrell via Datatracker
>> <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
>>=20
>> =EF=BB=BFReviewer: Stephen Farrell Review result: Has Issues
>>=20
>> I see two issues here worth checking:
>>=20
>> 1. I don't recall SipHash being used as a MAC in any IETF standard
>> before. We normally use HMAC, even if truncated. Why make this
>> change and was that checked with e.g. CFRG? (And the URL given in
>> the reference gets me a 404.)
>>=20
>> 2. Is it really a good idea to use a 32 bit seconds since
>> 1970-01-01 in 2020? I'd have thought that e.g. a timestamp in hours
>> since then or seconds since some date in 2020 would be better.
>>=20
>> Here's a couple of nits too: - section 1: what's a "strong
>> cookie"? - "gallimaufry" - cute! but not sure it'll help readers to
>> learn that word.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list=20
> DNSOP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>=20

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On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 10:32 AM Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD <ondrej@isc.org> wrot=
e:

> Stephen,
>
> ad 1) the performance is crucial for DNS over UDP and PRF such as SipHash
> is more efficient than HMACs. No, it wasn=E2=80=99t consulted with CFRG, =
and I
> can=E2=80=99t speak for Willem, but I am confident enough to make the dec=
ision.
> SipHash is widely used for hash tables virtually anywhere now.
>

Well hash tables are an application with somewhat different security
properties than MACs, so I don't think this is dispositive.

I concur with Stephen that CFRG should sign off on the use of SipHash here.
With that said, how does SipHash compare to GMAC in terms of performance?

-Ekr


> ad 2) we need a value that=E2=80=99s synchronized well enough and monoton=
ic. I
> honestly don=E2=80=99t see any value in using 64-bit value here. Using un=
ixtime has
> a value in itself, it=E2=80=99s a well-known and there=E2=80=99s a little=
 room for any
> implementor to make a mistake in an implementation. The interoperability =
is
> more important than the actual value of the counter. It=E2=80=99s write o=
nly
> counter, nobody is going to interpret it after it has been generated, and
> it=E2=80=99s wide enough to prevent brute forcing.
>
> Cheers,
> Ond=C5=99ej
> --
> Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD =E2=80=94 ISC (He/Him)
>
> > On 2. 12. 2020, at 18:47, Stephen Farrell via Datatracker <
> noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
> >
> > =EF=BB=BFReviewer: Stephen Farrell
> > Review result: Has Issues
> >
> > I see two issues here worth checking:
> >
> > 1. I don't recall SipHash being used as a MAC in
> > any IETF standard before. We normally use HMAC,
> > even if truncated. Why make this change and was
> > that checked with e.g. CFRG? (And the URL given
> > in the reference gets me a 404.)
> >
> > 2. Is it really a good idea to use a 32 bit seconds
> > since 1970-01-01 in 2020? I'd have thought that e.g.
> > a timestamp in hours since then or seconds since
> > some date in 2020 would be better.
> >
> > Here's a couple of nits too:
> > - section 1: what's a "strong cookie"?
> > - "gallimaufry" - cute! but not sure it'll help readers to learn that
> word.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> secdir mailing list
> secdir@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdir
> wiki: http://tools.ietf.org/area/sec/trac/wiki/SecDirReview
>

--00000000000090507b05b581c1b1
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 10:32 AM Ond=C5=99=
ej Sur=C3=BD &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ondrej@isc.org">ondrej@isc.org</a>&gt; w=
rote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Stephen,<b=
r>
<br>
ad 1) the performance is crucial for DNS over UDP and PRF such as SipHash i=
s more efficient than HMACs. No, it wasn=E2=80=99t consulted with CFRG, and=
 I can=E2=80=99t speak for Willem, but I am confident enough to make the de=
cision. SipHash is widely used for hash tables virtually anywhere now.<br><=
/blockquote><div><br></div><div>Well hash tables are an application with so=
mewhat different security properties than MACs, so I don&#39;t think this i=
s dispositive.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I concur with Stephen that CFRG=
 should sign off on the use of SipHash here. With that said, how does SipHa=
sh compare to GMAC in terms of performance?<br></div><div><br></div><div>-E=
kr</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
ad 2) we need a value that=E2=80=99s synchronized well enough and monotonic=
. I honestly don=E2=80=99t see any value in using 64-bit value here. Using =
unixtime has a value in itself, it=E2=80=99s a well-known and there=E2=80=
=99s a little room for any implementor to make a mistake in an implementati=
on. The interoperability is more important than the actual value of the cou=
nter. It=E2=80=99s write only counter, nobody is going to interpret it afte=
r it has been generated, and it=E2=80=99s wide enough to prevent brute forc=
ing.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Ond=C5=99ej<br>
--<br>
Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD =E2=80=94 ISC (He/Him)<br>
<br>
&gt; On 2. 12. 2020, at 18:47, Stephen Farrell via Datatracker &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt; wro=
te:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; =EF=BB=BFReviewer: Stephen Farrell<br>
&gt; Review result: Has Issues<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I see two issues here worth checking:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; 1. I don&#39;t recall SipHash being used as a MAC in<br>
&gt; any IETF standard before. We normally use HMAC,<br>
&gt; even if truncated. Why make this change and was<br>
&gt; that checked with e.g. CFRG? (And the URL given<br>
&gt; in the reference gets me a 404.)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; 2. Is it really a good idea to use a 32 bit seconds<br>
&gt; since 1970-01-01 in 2020? I&#39;d have thought that e.g.<br>
&gt; a timestamp in hours since then or seconds since<br>
&gt; some date in 2020 would be better.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Here&#39;s a couple of nits too:<br>
&gt; - section 1: what&#39;s a &quot;strong cookie&quot;?<br>
&gt; - &quot;gallimaufry&quot; - cute! but not sure it&#39;ll help readers =
to learn that word.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
secdir mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:secdir@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">secdir@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdir" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdir</a><br>
wiki: <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/area/sec/trac/wiki/SecDirReview" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/area/sec/trac/wiki/=
SecDirReview</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>

--00000000000090507b05b581c1b1--


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Subject: Re: [secdir] [DNSOP] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-dnsop-server-cookies-04
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Op 02-12-2020 om 21:37 schreef Stephen Farrell:

<snip>

>> ad 2) we need a value that’s synchronized well enough and monotonic.
>> I honestly don’t see any value in using 64-bit value here. Using
>> unixtime has a value in itself, it’s a well-known and there’s a
>> little room for any implementer to make a mistake in an
>> implementation. The interoperability is more important than the
>> actual value of the counter. It’s write only counter, nobody is going
>> to interpret it after it has been generated, and it’s wide enough to
>> prevent brute forcing.
> 
> So what happens after 2038? That's really not v. far in the
> future any more.

The draft states that `All comparisons involving these fields MUST
use "Serial number arithmetic", as defined in [RFC1982]'. So it can not
be used to compare differences larger than 68 years, but comparisons of
cookie timestamps are more in the "hours" order of magnitude.

Cheers,
-- Willem

> 
> Cheers,
> S.
> 
>>
>> Cheers, Ondřej -- Ondřej Surý — ISC (He/Him)
>>
>>> On 2. 12. 2020, at 18:47, Stephen Farrell via Datatracker
>>> <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> ﻿Reviewer: Stephen Farrell Review result: Has Issues
>>>
>>> I see two issues here worth checking:
>>>
>>> 1. I don't recall SipHash being used as a MAC in any IETF standard
>>> before. We normally use HMAC, even if truncated. Why make this
>>> change and was that checked with e.g. CFRG? (And the URL given in
>>> the reference gets me a 404.)
>>>
>>> 2. Is it really a good idea to use a 32 bit seconds since
>>> 1970-01-01 in 2020? I'd have thought that e.g. a timestamp in hours
>>> since then or seconds since some date in 2020 would be better.
>>>
>>> Here's a couple of nits too: - section 1: what's a "strong
>>> cookie"? - "gallimaufry" - cute! but not sure it'll help readers to
>>> learn that word.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list
>> DNSOP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
> 


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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/secdir/eSC-7ApMvv0CulyawvA0AILB59w>
Subject: [secdir] FW: [babel] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-babel-information-model-11
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From: "STARK, BARBARA H" <bs7652@att.com>
To: "'secdir@ietf.org'" <secdir@ietf.org>
CC: "'last-call@ietf.org'" <last-call@ietf.org>, "'babel@ietf.org'" <babel@ietf.org>, "'draft-ietf-babel-information-model.all@ietf.org'" <draft-ietf-babel-information-model.all@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [babel] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-babel-information-model-11
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/secdir/90YcyVcS90Ya449tT0Zibc6Fb9o>
Subject: [secdir] FW: [babel] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-babel-information-model-11
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This was the response Valery sent.

-----Original Message-----
From: Valery Smyslov <valery@smyslov.net>=20
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2020 1:40 AM
To: STARK, BARBARA H <bs7652@att.com>
Subject: RE: [babel] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-babel-informatio=
n-model-11

Hi Barbara,

please, see inline.

> Hi Valery,
> I've cut this down to just the points that still need some discussion. Th=
x,
> Barbara
>=20
> > > > Issues.
> > > >
> > > > 1. Section 3.1:
> > > >
> > > >    babel-mac-algorithms:  List of supported MAC computation algorit=
hms.
> > > >       Possible values include "HMAC-SHA256", "BLAKE2s".
> > > >
> > > > BLAKE2s can produce MACs of different sizes from 1 to 32 bytes and =
the
> > > > desired
> > > > size of the MAC is a parameter for it. Where the size of MAC is spe=
cified?
> > For
> > > > HMAC with SHA256 I can at least imagine that full 256 bits output i=
s used
> > as a
> > > > MAC...
> > >
> > > Juliusz said:
> > > > Right.  The intent is that Blake2s is used with 32-octet keys and 1=
6-octet
> > > > hashes (collision-resistance is not a concern for Babel-MAC while
> > > > dictionary attacks are).  Barbara, I think that you should explicit=
ly
> > > > state that Blake2s implies 128-bit hashes.  (You may also consider
> > > > renaming BLAKE2s to BLAKE2s-128.)
> > >
> > > The defined values for babel-mac-algorithms come directly from draft-=
ietf-
> > babel-hmac. The defined value
> > > names should map closely to the names used for the algorithms in in t=
hat
> > draft -- which they currently do.
> > >
> > > If it needs to be explicitly stated somewhere that an implementation =
of
> > draft-ietf-babel-hmac with BLAKE2s
> > > outputs 128-bit MACs, then draft-ietf-babel-hmac (which was already
> > submitted for publication) would be the
> > > correct place to say that. The information model is not the right pla=
ce,
> > unless there's some expectation for the
> > > size to be configurable or reportable. I'm not seeing any request for=
 the
> > MAC size to be configured or reported
> > > via the information model.
> > >
> > > I'm proposing no change to the defined values of babel-mac-algorithms=
 in
> > order to maintain complete
> > > consistency with the names used in draft-ietf-babel-hmac-12.
> >
> > My point was that the intent Juliusz mentioned (that Blake2s is used wi=
th 32-
> > octet keys and 16-octet
> > hashes) must be documented somewhere. If you think it must be in the
> > draft-ietf-babel-hmac,
> > I'm fine with this, but currently I cannot find any such requirement
> > anywhere.
>=20
> I had a chat with Juliusz and Toke. We discussed that we think
> draft-ietf-babel-hmac should mention the MAC size a BLAKE2s
> implementation should create. This draft is currently in
> the RFC Editor's Queue, but the preference would be to include this
> before publication. This has been taken to the babel WG list
> to get consensus there. There is some discussion as to whether it
> should be 128-bit or 256-bit. Juliusz included Valery on the WG thread.

Yes, I received those messages. Thanks.

> With that, I would also change the suggested string here in the info mode=
l
> to "BLAKE2s-<agreed-upon bit length>", just in case someone wanted to
> do BLAKE2s with different length MACs.
> Will this be acceptable?

Absolutely!

> > > > 2. Section 3.9:
> > > >
> > > >    babel-cert-test:  An operation that allows a hash of the provide=
d
> > > >       input string to be created using the certificate public key a=
nd
> > > >       the SHA-256 hash algorithm.  Input to this operation is a bin=
ary
> > > >       string.  The output of this operation is the resulting hash, =
as a
> > > >       binary string.
> > > >
> > > > I failed to understand what this operation should do. Literally rea=
ding it is
> > > > intended to produce SHA2-256 hash of public key and some arbitrary
> > string
> > > > (concatenated? in what order?). But then I failed to understand the
> > purpose
> > > > of
> > > > this test. I would have understood if this operation provides signi=
ng of
> > the
> > > > arbitrary string using private key and SHA2-256 as a hash function
> > (similarly
> > > > to babel-mac-key-test), but it in not what is written...
> > >
> > > One of the most common problems in configuring security mechanisms is=
 in
> > the format of the input key (hex,
> > > ASCII, base64, hashing that occurs to create "actual key", etc.). Whe=
n a
> > security mechanism fails to work, it is
> > > important for users or device managers to be able to trouble-shoot th=
is
> > specific point of failure. This test
> > > allows the user/manager to see if what this device thinks the MAC sho=
uld
> > be is the same as what another
> > > device thinks the MAC should be or is the same as the MAC being sent =
on
> > the wire. Many ISPs have built a test
> > > like this into their ISP-supplied CE routers (invoked using the TR-06=
9
> > protocol and TR-181 data model) to test
> > > various stored key values. It has proven useful.
> >
> > I'm still confused. Are we talking about MACs or about certificates for=
 DTLS?
> > I have no problems with text describing test for MAC keys. The text I'm
> > having problem with
> > is about testing certificates for DTLS. The test it describes is not cl=
ear for me:
> > it suggests to perform SHA2-256 hash of an input string "using the cert=
ificate
> > public key".
> > It is unclear for me how you would use the certificate public key to pr=
oduce a
> > hash
> > of some input string. So I believe the test should be clarified.
>=20
> Oops. Sorry. I totally mis-read your comment. Thanks for clarifying.

That's probably my fault, I should have be more clear from the very beginni=
ng.

> I see your point. That's pretty useless, as specified.
> The public and private parts of the key would really make something
> like this pretty complicated to actually use.
> I think I'd like to suggest just deleting babel-cert-test. Certificates a=
ren't
> as finicky as MAC keys.

Another option would be to keep babel-cert-test, but redefine it=20
to perform something useful. E.g. to test whether certificate
is not expired, not revoked and whether it's signature can be verified
using some trusted CA certificate.

But this is probably too complex for implementers and DTLS library checks c=
ertificates in any case,
so it's fine with me if you just delete babel-cert-test.

> > > > 3. Section 5 (Security Considerations):
> > > >
> > > > I think that text about keys (their length and properties) needs so=
me
> > > > expansion. First, there are no any RFC2119 words discouraging using=
 short
> > > > and
> > > > weak keys (there is some text, but without RFC2119 words and with n=
o
> > > > references
> > > > it's just hand waving). Note, that draft-ietf-babel-hmac-12 has som=
e text
> > > > about
> > > > the properties of the keys, so I believe at least it must be refere=
nced
> > here. I
> > > > also suspect that explicitly allowing zero-length and short keys wi=
ll lead to
> > > > situations when some network operators will use them (because they
> > are
> > > > not
> > > > prohibited), thus subverting security properties of MAC...
> > >
> > > Thanks. I'll add a reference to draft-ietf-babel-hmac Security
> > Considerations.
> > >
> > > Zero length and short keys were discussed on the mailing list. The gr=
oup
> > considered it appropriate to
> > > allow configuration of zero-length keys for testing but to advise peo=
ple to
> > follow best
> > > current practices. I find the use of normative language to attempt to
> > control the behavior of
> > > a home network owner (for example) or someone setting up an informal
> > ad hoc mesh
> > > network (for example) to be odd. IMO, the IETF should not seek to con=
trol
> > > the choices of people putting together such relatively small-scale ne=
tworks
> > through
> > > the use of strong normative language in an information model
> > specification. It's
> > > impossible to enforce and such people pretty much never read RFCs.
> > >
> > > If there is a strong desire for some sort of normative language, then=
 I could
> > suggest
> > > OLD
> > >    MAC keys are allowed to be as short as zero-length.  This is usefu=
l
> > >    for testing.  Network operators are advised to follow current best
> > >    practices for key length and generation of keys related to the MAC
> > >    algorithm associated with the key.  Short (and zero-length) keys a=
nd
> > >    keys that make use of only alphanumeric characters are highly
> > >    susceptible to brute force attacks.
> > > NEW
> > >    MAC keys are allowed to be as short as zero-length.  This is usefu=
l
> > >    for testing.  Network operators are RECOMMENDED to follow current
> > best
> > >    practices for key length and generation of keys related to the MAC
> > >    algorithm associated with the key.  Short (and zero-length) keys a=
nd
> > >    keys that make use of only alphanumeric characters are highly
> > >    susceptible to brute force attacks. See the Security Consideration=
s
> > >   section of [ID.draft-ietf-babel-hmac] for additional considerations
> > >   related to MAC keys.
> >
> > I would suggest additionally using "SHOULD NOT" for weak keys.
> > How about the following new text:
> >
> >     MAC keys are allowed to be as short as zero-length.  This is useful
> >     for testing.  Network operators are RECOMMENDED to follow current b=
est
> >     practices for key length and generation of keys related to the MAC
> >     algorithm associated with the key.  Short (and zero-length) keys an=
d
> >     keys that make use of only alphanumeric characters are highly
> >     susceptible to brute force attacks and thus SHOULD NOT be used.
> >     See the Security Considerations section of [ID.draft-ietf-babel-hma=
c]
> >     for additional considerations related to MAC keys.
> >
> > (note that "SHOULD NOT" still allows people to shoot in their feet if t=
hey
> > want to).
>=20
> OK. I'll make that change.

Thank you.

> > > > Nits.
> >
> > > > 4. Section 3.8:
> > > >
> > > >    babel-mac-key-use-sign:  Indicates whether this key value is use=
d to
> > > >       sign sent Babel packets.  Sent packets are signed using this =
key
> > > >       if the value is "true".  If the value is "false", this key is=
 not
> > > >       used to sign sent Babel packets.  An implementation MAY choos=
e to
> > > >       expose this parameter as read-only ("ro").
> > > >
> > > > "Sign" is not a good word when you describe symmetric key operation=
s
> > > > (which
> > > > computing MAC belongs to). Although it is often used informally, I =
think
> > that
> > > > RFC should be more meticulous in selecting words. I'd rather replac=
e it
> > with
> > > > "compute MAC" and rename the entry to babel-mac-key-use-compute
> > or
> > > > babel-mac-key-use-mac (if it is possible). Note, that using "verify=
 MAC" is
> > OK.
> > >
> > > I've been thinking through this. I can't speak to the informal nature=
 of
> > "sign", but I can say that simply
> > > replacing "sign" with "compute" or "mac" wouldn't convey correctly wh=
at
> > this parameter is about. This
> > > parameter is primarily concerned with whether or not a MAC is include=
d in
> > the sent packet. The sending is the
> > > critical piece, and not the computing (it's possible to compute the M=
AC
> > without sending it; a MAC in a sent
> > > packet is assumed to have been computed). I could change the descript=
ion
> > to:
> > >        Indicates whether this key value is used to compute a MAC and =
include
> > that MAC in the
> > >        sent Babel packet.  A MAC for sent packets is computed using t=
his key
> > >        if the value is "true".  If the value is "false", this key is =
not
> > >        used to compute a MAC to include in sent Babel packets.  An
> > implementation MAY choose to
> > >        expose this parameter as read-only ("ro")
> >
> > I'm fine with this.
> >
> > > But I struggle with the proposed parameter renaming. I strongly belie=
ve
> > the name should concisely describe
> > > that the Boolean value indicates whether or not to include a MAC in t=
he
> > sent packet. The term "sign" is one
> > > I've commonly seen to indicate that a MAC is included in the sent pac=
ket.
> > I'm not aware of a different,
> > > similarly short word. "Compute" and "mac" do not convey the sending
> > aspect. And sending is very
> > > asymmetric.
> >
> > How about "use"?
>=20
> Use has two problems in that it's already being used as part of babel-mac=
-key-use-verify,
> and that it really needs a word to go with it to indicate how it's used (=
like the -verify).
> Perhaps "send"? babel-mac-key-use-send ?

Great!

Regards,
Valery.

> > > > 5. Section 3.8:
> > > >
> > > >    babel-mac-key-value:
> > > >        ...
> > > >       This value is of a length suitable for the associated babel-m=
ac-key-
> > > >       algorithm.  If the algorithm is based on the HMAC constructio=
n
> > > >       [RFC2104], the length MUST be between 0 and the block size of=
 the
> > > >       underlying hash inclusive (where "HMAC-SHA256" block size is =
64
> > > >       bytes as described in [RFC4868]).  If the algorithm is "BLAKE=
2s",
> > > >       the length MUST be between 0 and 32 bytes inclusive, as descr=
ibed
> > > >       in [RFC7693].
> > > >
> > > > I wonder of the rationale for imposing the above restrictions on HM=
AC
> > key
> > > > length. HMAC can use keys of any length, but if the key is greater =
than
> > block
> > > > size of underlying hash function, then it's first hashed (small per=
formance
> > > > penalty). So I imagine that the rationale is to avoid this penalty.=
 However,
> > as
> > > > RFC2104 states, key sizes greater than output length of the underly=
ing
> > hash
> > > > function (32 bytes in case of SHA2-256) would not significantly inc=
rease
> > the
> > > > function strength, so it's just a waste of space. See also Issue 3 =
above.
> > >
> > > Juliusz said:
> > > > This was discussed at length on the mailing list.  It's not about
> > > > performance, it's about making it more difficult to use an unsafe
> > > > procedure for generating keys.
> > > >
> > > > Since Babel-MAC is vulnerable to dictionary attacks, the key must e=
ither
> > > > be drawn randomly or generated using a procedure that is hardened
> > against
> > > > such attacks (scrypt, etc.).  Applying the procedure described in R=
FC 2104
> > > > to a user-provided passphrase is not safe, and therefore we try to =
make
> > it
> > > > difficult for a naive user to do so.
> > > >
> > > > I am opposed to putting the RFC 2104 hashing procedure in the
> > information
> > > > model.  Doing so would be a disservice to our users.
> > >
> > > In addition to the rationale Juliusz mentioned, we (babel WG) also no=
ted
> > that implementers
> > > of the babel MAC function were using existing libraries for the HMAC-
> > SHA256 algorithm.
> > > The user interface (UI) that accepted manual key entry was also from =
an
> > existing library. When
> > > the same longer strings were entered into different UIs of the differ=
ent
> > implementations, these
> > > strings were treated differently and resulted in non-interoperability=
. The
> > "actual key" (using
> > > RFC 2104 words) ended up different. Requiring entered keys to be dire=
ctly
> > usable as "actual
> > > keys" solved this problem. BTW, I have considered UIs for direct
> > management and configuration
> > > to effectively be implementations of the information model.
> > >
> > > I recommend no changes to this text.
> >
> > I can live with this if you add "SHOULD NOT" for zero-length keys in th=
e
> > Security Consideration
> > (as I suggested above).
>=20
> Agreed to the "SHOULD NOT". Thx.
>=20
> > > > 8. Section 5 (Security Considerations):
> > > >
> > > >    MAC keys are allowed to be as short as zero-length.  This is use=
ful
> > > >    for testing.
> > > >
> > > > I wonder what's benefit of allowing zero-length keys for testing
> > purposes.
> > > > What
> > > > is intended to be tested in this case? Implementation of MAC? Is it=
 really
> > > > needed outside test lab? Am I missing something?
> > >
> > > As with the -test actions, this allows someone to diagnose whether a
> > problem they are having is with the
> > > formatting
> > > of the input key (hex, padded, ASCII, base64, etc.). This is by far o=
ne of the
> > most common problems when
> > > attempting to
> > > get different implementations to interoperate.
> >
> > OK, but I'd rather still add "SHOULD NOT" for using them as I suggested
> > above.
>=20
> Agreed to the "SHOULD NOT". Thx.


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Hiya,

On 02/12/2020 21:38, Willem Toorop wrote:
> Op 02-12-2020 om 21:37 schreef Stephen Farrell:
>=20
> <snip>
>=20
>>> ad 2) we need a value that=E2=80=99s synchronized well enough and mon=
otonic.
>>> I honestly don=E2=80=99t see any value in using 64-bit value here. Us=
ing
>>> unixtime has a value in itself, it=E2=80=99s a well-known and there=E2=
=80=99s a
>>> little room for any implementer to make a mistake in an
>>> implementation. The interoperability is more important than the
>>> actual value of the counter. It=E2=80=99s write only counter, nobody =
is going
>>> to interpret it after it has been generated, and it=E2=80=99s wide en=
ough to
>>> prevent brute forcing.
>>
>> So what happens after 2038? That's really not v. far in the
>> future any more.
>=20
> The draft states that `All comparisons involving these fields MUST
> use "Serial number arithmetic", as defined in [RFC1982]'. So it can not=

> be used to compare differences larger than 68 years, but comparisons of=

> cookie timestamps are more in the "hours" order of magnitude.

Sorry for being dim, but is clear what value to put
in those 4 octets in say 2039 such that different
implementations will do the right thing? I did glance
at rfc1982, so there may be very far-sighted text
in there that I missed:-) And it may even be fine
for this purpose if different servers differ by a
second or so at that point, but even if so, it may
be a bad plan to leave that unspecified in case
other timestamps use the same code.

Cheers,
S.

>=20
> Cheers,
> -- Willem
>=20
>>
>> Cheers,
>> S.
>>
>>>
>>> Cheers, Ond=C5=99ej -- Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD =E2=80=94 ISC (He/Him)
>>>
>>>> On 2. 12. 2020, at 18:47, Stephen Farrell via Datatracker
>>>> <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> =EF=BB=BFReviewer: Stephen Farrell Review result: Has Issues
>>>>
>>>> I see two issues here worth checking:
>>>>
>>>> 1. I don't recall SipHash being used as a MAC in any IETF standard
>>>> before. We normally use HMAC, even if truncated. Why make this
>>>> change and was that checked with e.g. CFRG? (And the URL given in
>>>> the reference gets me a 404.)
>>>>
>>>> 2. Is it really a good idea to use a 32 bit seconds since
>>>> 1970-01-01 in 2020? I'd have thought that e.g. a timestamp in hours
>>>> since then or seconds since some date in 2020 would be better.
>>>>
>>>> Here's a couple of nits too: - section 1: what's a "strong
>>>> cookie"? - "gallimaufry" - cute! but not sure it'll help readers to
>>>> learn that word.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list
>>> DNSOP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> DNSOP mailing list
>> DNSOP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>=20

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From: Willem Toorop <willem@nlnetlabs.nl>
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Subject: Re: [secdir] [DNSOP] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-dnsop-server-cookies-04
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Op 02-12-2020 om 22:49 schreef Stephen Farrell:
> 
> Hiya,
> 
> On 02/12/2020 21:38, Willem Toorop wrote:
>> Op 02-12-2020 om 21:37 schreef Stephen Farrell:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> ad 2) we need a value that’s synchronized well enough and monotonic.
>>>> I honestly don’t see any value in using 64-bit value here. Using
>>>> unixtime has a value in itself, it’s a well-known and there’s a
>>>> little room for any implementer to make a mistake in an
>>>> implementation. The interoperability is more important than the
>>>> actual value of the counter. It’s write only counter, nobody is going
>>>> to interpret it after it has been generated, and it’s wide enough to
>>>> prevent brute forcing.
>>>
>>> So what happens after 2038? That's really not v. far in the
>>> future any more.
>>
>> The draft states that `All comparisons involving these fields MUST
>> use "Serial number arithmetic", as defined in [RFC1982]'. So it can not
>> be used to compare differences larger than 68 years, but comparisons of
>> cookie timestamps are more in the "hours" order of magnitude.
> 
> Sorry for being dim, but is clear what value to put
> in those 4 octets in say 2039 such that different
> implementations will do the right thing
Well the text does specify an "32-bit unsigned number of seconds elapsed
since 1 January 1970 00:00:00 UTC", so because of the "unsigned" the
wrap to 0 is only in 2106, not 2038.

But even then, in 2106, it should not be a problem to check the age of a
cookie because of the rfc1982 comparison (which takes care of the wrap)
and the fact that Server Cookies will not be older than hours (and not
years).

Cheers,
-- Willem

> I did glance
> at rfc1982, so there may be very far-sighted text
> in there that I missed:-) And it may even be fine
> for this purpose if different servers differ by a
> second or so at that point, but even if so, it may
> be a bad plan to leave that unspecified in case
> other timestamps use the same code.
> 
> Cheers,
> S.
> 
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -- Willem
>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> S.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers, Ondřej -- Ondřej Surý — ISC (He/Him)
>>>>
>>>>> On 2. 12. 2020, at 18:47, Stephen Farrell via Datatracker
>>>>> <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> ﻿Reviewer: Stephen Farrell Review result: Has Issues
>>>>>
>>>>> I see two issues here worth checking:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. I don't recall SipHash being used as a MAC in any IETF standard
>>>>> before. We normally use HMAC, even if truncated. Why make this
>>>>> change and was that checked with e.g. CFRG? (And the URL given in
>>>>> the reference gets me a 404.)
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Is it really a good idea to use a 32 bit seconds since
>>>>> 1970-01-01 in 2020? I'd have thought that e.g. a timestamp in hours
>>>>> since then or seconds since some date in 2020 would be better.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's a couple of nits too: - section 1: what's a "strong
>>>>> cookie"? - "gallimaufry" - cute! but not sure it'll help readers to
>>>>> learn that word.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list
>>>> DNSOP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> DNSOP mailing list
>>> DNSOP@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> DNSOP mailing list
>> DNSOP@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>>


From nobody Wed Dec  2 14:18:57 2020
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Cc: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, last-call@ietf.org, draft-ietf-dnsop-server-cookies.all@ietf.org, dnsop WG <dnsop@ietf.org>, secdir@ietf.org
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SYN cookies in both Linux and FreeBSD uses siphash.

* FreeBSD: https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=3Drevision&revision=3D2532=
10 (since 2013)
* Linux: =
https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/fe62d05b295bde037fa32476767454090=
7c89362#diff-14feef60c3dbcf67539f089de04546c907233cbae09e1b2dd2c2bc6d6eae4=
416 (since 2017)

I believe that the SYN cookies have exactly the same properties as DNS =
cookies.

Ondrej
--
Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD (He/Him)
ondrej@isc.org

> On 2. 12. 2020, at 22:15, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>=20
> Well hash tables are an application with somewhat different security =
properties than MACs, so I don't think this is dispositive.
>=20


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From: Brian Dickson <brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 14:25:29 -0800
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To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Cc: Willem Toorop <willem@nlnetlabs.nl>, =?UTF-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?= <ondrej@isc.org>,  last-call@ietf.org, draft-ietf-dnsop-server-cookies.all@ietf.org,  "dnsop@ietf.org WG" <dnsop@ietf.org>, secdir@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [secdir] [DNSOP] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-dnsop-server-cookies-04
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On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 1:49 PM Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
wrote:

>
> Hiya,
>
> On 02/12/2020 21:38, Willem Toorop wrote:
> > Op 02-12-2020 om 21:37 schreef Stephen Farrell:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >>> ad 2) we need a value that=E2=80=99s synchronized well enough and mon=
otonic.
> >>> I honestly don=E2=80=99t see any value in using 64-bit value here. Us=
ing
> >>> unixtime has a value in itself, it=E2=80=99s a well-known and there=
=E2=80=99s a
> >>> little room for any implementer to make a mistake in an
> >>> implementation. The interoperability is more important than the
> >>> actual value of the counter. It=E2=80=99s write only counter, nobody =
is going
> >>> to interpret it after it has been generated, and it=E2=80=99s wide en=
ough to
> >>> prevent brute forcing.
> >>
> >> So what happens after 2038? That's really not v. far in the
> >> future any more.
> >
> > The draft states that `All comparisons involving these fields MUST
> > use "Serial number arithmetic", as defined in [RFC1982]'. So it can not
> > be used to compare differences larger than 68 years, but comparisons of
> > cookie timestamps are more in the "hours" order of magnitude.
>
> Sorry for being dim, but is clear what value to put
> in those 4 octets in say 2039 such that different
> implementations will do the right thing? I did glance
> at rfc1982, so there may be very far-sighted text
> in there that I missed:-) And it may even be fine
> for this purpose if different servers differ by a
> second or so at that point, but even if so, it may
> be a bad plan to leave that unspecified in case
> other timestamps use the same code.
>

The reference to RFC1982 pretty much implies use of modulo arithmetic.
Maybe it would help to spell it out?
(Basically, calculate seconds since Jan 1 1970 at 0000 UTC, and if the
value is > 2^32, take the remainder mod 2^32.)

The RFC1982 specifies how the differences should be handled, so regardless
of which one is 0 and which one is 1 (or 2^32 - 1), the difference yielded
is a small number (i.e. 1).

This handles any relative time window less than 68 years, at any time in
the future (2038 or 2106 or 2256 or 22209.)

Brian

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 1:49 PM Stephe=
n Farrell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie">stephen.farrell@=
cs.tcd.ie</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><br>
Hiya,<br>
<br>
On 02/12/2020 21:38, Willem Toorop wrote:<br>
&gt; Op 02-12-2020 om 21:37 schreef Stephen Farrell:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; ad 2) we need a value that=E2=80=99s synchronized well enough =
and monotonic.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; I honestly don=E2=80=99t see any value in using 64-bit value h=
ere. Using<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; unixtime has a value in itself, it=E2=80=99s a well-known and =
there=E2=80=99s a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; little room for any implementer to make a mistake in an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; implementation. The interoperability is more important than th=
e<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; actual value of the counter. It=E2=80=99s write only counter, =
nobody is going<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; to interpret it after it has been generated, and it=E2=80=99s =
wide enough to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; prevent brute forcing.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; So what happens after 2038? That&#39;s really not v. far in the<br=
>
&gt;&gt; future any more.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The draft states that `All comparisons involving these fields MUST<br>
&gt; use &quot;Serial number arithmetic&quot;, as defined in [RFC1982]&#39;=
. So it can not<br>
&gt; be used to compare differences larger than 68 years, but comparisons o=
f<br>
&gt; cookie timestamps are more in the &quot;hours&quot; order of magnitude=
.<br>
<br>
Sorry for being dim, but is clear what value to put<br>
in those 4 octets in say 2039 such that different<br>
implementations will do the right thing? I did glance<br>
at rfc1982, so there may be very far-sighted text<br>
in there that I missed:-) And it may even be fine<br>
for this purpose if different servers differ by a<br>
second or so at that point, but even if so, it may<br>
be a bad plan to leave that unspecified in case<br>
other timestamps use the same code.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The=
 reference to RFC1982 pretty much implies use of modulo arithmetic.</div><d=
iv>Maybe it would help to spell it out?<br>(Basically, calculate seconds si=
nce Jan 1 1970 at 0000 UTC, and if the value is &gt; 2^32, take the remaind=
er mod 2^32.)</div><div><br></div><div>The RFC1982 specifies how the differ=
ences should be handled, so regardless of which one is 0 and which one is 1=
 (or 2^32 - 1), the difference yielded is a small number (i.e. 1).</div><di=
v><br></div><div>This handles any relative time window less than 68 years, =
at any time in the future (2038 or 2106 or 2256 or 22209.)</div><div><br></=
div><div>Brian=C2=A0</div></div></div>

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References: <160693121881.9413.5642470305677631145@ietfa.amsl.com> <17AFD6F5-11DA-41BC-8C37-E1893648041D@isc.org> <75c266ba-573a-29e3-621d-aea9b27f195f@cs.tcd.ie> <b23d3f2b-4b4f-f70c-ff53-cbd2c229a887@nlnetlabs.nl> <d263c879-6c85-fbc3-3484-02402b1c52aa@cs.tcd.ie> <9a15fe4b-7850-3558-78d8-7ad7f90fd97d@nlnetlabs.nl>
From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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Subject: Re: [secdir] [Last-Call] [DNSOP] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-dnsop-server-cookies-04
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Hiya,

On 02/12/2020 22:07, Willem Toorop wrote:
>=20
>=20
> Op 02-12-2020 om 22:49 schreef Stephen Farrell:
>>
>> Hiya,
>>
>> On 02/12/2020 21:38, Willem Toorop wrote:
>>> Op 02-12-2020 om 21:37 schreef Stephen Farrell:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>>> ad 2) we need a value that=E2=80=99s synchronized well enough and m=
onotonic.
>>>>> I honestly don=E2=80=99t see any value in using 64-bit value here. =
Using
>>>>> unixtime has a value in itself, it=E2=80=99s a well-known and there=
=E2=80=99s a
>>>>> little room for any implementer to make a mistake in an
>>>>> implementation. The interoperability is more important than the
>>>>> actual value of the counter. It=E2=80=99s write only counter, nobod=
y is going
>>>>> to interpret it after it has been generated, and it=E2=80=99s wide =
enough to
>>>>> prevent brute forcing.
>>>>
>>>> So what happens after 2038? That's really not v. far in the
>>>> future any more.
>>>
>>> The draft states that `All comparisons involving these fields MUST
>>> use "Serial number arithmetic", as defined in [RFC1982]'. So it can n=
ot
>>> be used to compare differences larger than 68 years, but comparisons =
of
>>> cookie timestamps are more in the "hours" order of magnitude.
>>
>> Sorry for being dim, but is clear what value to put
>> in those 4 octets in say 2039 such that different
>> implementations will do the right thing
> Well the text does specify an "32-bit unsigned number of seconds elapse=
d
> since 1 January 1970 00:00:00 UTC", so because of the "unsigned" the
> wrap to 0 is only in 2106, not 2038.

Ah. I missed that "unsigned." (Does that mean implementers
might also?)

> But even then, in 2106, it should not be a problem to check the age of =
a
> cookie because of the rfc1982 comparison (which takes care of the wrap)=

> and the fact that Server Cookies will not be older than hours (and not
> years).

So the buggy case would be where a server re-constructs
the input to the hash after some kind of round-trip of
the octets (to e.g. struct tm or something and then back
to time_t and to network byte order) at which point you could
I think get failures depending on who implemented what
incorrectly. That kind of thing has been seen before (even
if it seems a bit mad;-)

FWIW, I'd say it's worth a few more words to try reduce
the probability of such failures happening, e.g. maybe
just highlighting the "unsigned/2106" point you made
above would be enough. But, if the WG don't want to do
that, that's also fine by me.

Cheers,
S.


>=20
> Cheers,
> -- Willem
>=20
>> I did glance
>> at rfc1982, so there may be very far-sighted text
>> in there that I missed:-) And it may even be fine
>> for this purpose if different servers differ by a
>> second or so at that point, but even if so, it may
>> be a bad plan to leave that unspecified in case
>> other timestamps use the same code.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> S.
>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> -- Willem
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> S.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers, Ond=C5=99ej -- Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD =E2=80=94 ISC (He/Him)=

>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2. 12. 2020, at 18:47, Stephen Farrell via Datatracker
>>>>>> <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> =EF=BB=BFReviewer: Stephen Farrell Review result: Has Issues
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I see two issues here worth checking:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. I don't recall SipHash being used as a MAC in any IETF standard=

>>>>>> before. We normally use HMAC, even if truncated. Why make this
>>>>>> change and was that checked with e.g. CFRG? (And the URL given in
>>>>>> the reference gets me a 404.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. Is it really a good idea to use a 32 bit seconds since
>>>>>> 1970-01-01 in 2020? I'd have thought that e.g. a timestamp in hour=
s
>>>>>> since then or seconds since some date in 2020 would be better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's a couple of nits too: - section 1: what's a "strong
>>>>>> cookie"? - "gallimaufry" - cute! but not sure it'll help readers t=
o
>>>>>> learn that word.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list
>>>>> DNSOP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> DNSOP mailing list
>>>> DNSOP@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> DNSOP mailing list
>>> DNSOP@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>>>
>=20

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Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

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From nobody Thu Dec  3 06:29:22 2020
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Subject: Re: [secdir] [Last-Call] [DNSOP] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-dnsop-server-cookies-04
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Op 02-12-2020 om 23:31 schreef Stephen Farrell:

<snip>

> FWIW, I'd say it's worth a few more words to try reduce
> the probability of such failures happening, e.g. maybe
> just highlighting the "unsigned/2106" point you made
> above would be enough. But, if the WG don't want to do
> that, that's also fine by me.

Sure, NP. I'll include Brian Dicksen's provided clarification in the
text. Also, I approached Jean-Philippe Aumasson and he fixed the url we
used in the draft for SipHash, but recommends to use this one in the future:

https://www.aumasson.jp/siphash/

So I'll change that too.

Cheers,
-- Willem


From nobody Thu Dec  3 09:40:42 2020
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 09:39:52 -0800
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To: Willem Toorop <willem@nlnetlabs.nl>
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--000000000000166dfe05b592db34
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On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 6:29 AM Willem Toorop <willem@nlnetlabs.nl> wrote:

> Op 02-12-2020 om 23:31 schreef Stephen Farrell:
>
> <snip>
>
> > FWIW, I'd say it's worth a few more words to try reduce
> > the probability of such failures happening, e.g. maybe
> > just highlighting the "unsigned/2106" point you made
> > above would be enough. But, if the WG don't want to do
> > that, that's also fine by me.
>
> Sure, NP. I'll include Brian Dicksen's provided clarification in the
> text. Also, I approached Jean-Philippe Aumasson and he fixed the url we
> used in the draft for SipHash, but recommends to use this one in the
> future:
>
> https://www.aumasson.jp/siphash/


It seems like kind of a problem to have a normative algorithm reference to
a random personal Website.

-Ekr


>
> So I'll change that too.
>
> Cheers,
> -- Willem
>
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>

--000000000000166dfe05b592db34
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 6:29 AM Willem=
 Toorop &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:willem@nlnetlabs.nl">willem@nlnetlabs.nl</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Op 02=
-12-2020 om 23:31 schreef Stephen Farrell:<br>
<br>
&lt;snip&gt;<br>
<br>
&gt; FWIW, I&#39;d say it&#39;s worth a few more words to try reduce<br>
&gt; the probability of such failures happening, e.g. maybe<br>
&gt; just highlighting the &quot;unsigned/2106&quot; point you made<br>
&gt; above would be enough. But, if the WG don&#39;t want to do<br>
&gt; that, that&#39;s also fine by me.<br>
<br>
Sure, NP. I&#39;ll include Brian Dicksen&#39;s provided clarification in th=
e<br>
text. Also, I approached Jean-Philippe Aumasson and he fixed the url we<br>
used in the draft for SipHash, but recommends to use this one in the future=
:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.aumasson.jp/siphash/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_=
blank">https://www.aumasson.jp/siphash/</a></blockquote><div><br></div><div=
>It seems like kind of a problem to have a normative algorithm reference to=
 a random personal Website.<br></div><div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div><br=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
So I&#39;ll change that too.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
-- Willem<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
DNSOP mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:DNSOP@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">DNSOP@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>

--000000000000166dfe05b592db34--


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From: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Willem Toorop <willem@nlnetlabs.nl>
CC: "secdir@ietf.org" <secdir@ietf.org>, dnsop WG <dnsop@ietf.org>, "last-call@ietf.org" <last-call@ietf.org>, =?utf-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?= <ondrej@isc.org>, "draft-ietf-dnsop-server-cookies.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dnsop-server-cookies.all@ietf.org>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 10:28:24 -0800
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To: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz=40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Willem Toorop <willem@nlnetlabs.nl>, "secdir@ietf.org" <secdir@ietf.org>,  dnsop WG <dnsop@ietf.org>, "last-call@ietf.org" <last-call@ietf.org>, =?UTF-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?= <ondrej@isc.org>,  "draft-ietf-dnsop-server-cookies.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dnsop-server-cookies.all@ietf.org>,  Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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Subject: Re: [secdir] [Last-Call] [DNSOP] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-dnsop-server-cookies-04
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--000000000000b47a1705b59388eb
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On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 9:52 AM Salz, Rich <rsalz=40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
wrote:

>
> https://www.aumasson.jp/siphash/
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.aumasson.jp/siphash/__;!!GjvTz_vk!H9yuV_JGH8WlsgRRRHM2ZK0GjjLwaWYM9A9bC2Fylujljh-wHdJvPqIppeQ4$>
>
>
>
>    - It seems like kind of a problem to have a normative algorithm
>    reference to a random personal Website.
>
>
>
> That web page has pointers to papers, perhaps they should be used instead.
>
>
That might be better. Basically, something that we can have some confidence
will be stable.

>
>
> Or maybe someone can convince Simon Joseffson to write it up (as he has
> for many others :)
>

That seems great.

-Ekr

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> last-call mailing list
> last-call@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/last-call
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 9:52 AM Salz, =
Rich &lt;rsalz=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40akamai.co=
m@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex">





<div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;" lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-8753708564735179778WordSection1">
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rg=
b(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium=
 medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.aumasson.jp/siphash/__;!!=
GjvTz_vk!H9yuV_JGH8WlsgRRRHM2ZK0GjjLwaWYM9A9bC2Fylujljh-wHdJvPqIppeQ4$" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://www.aumasson.jp/siphash/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"gmail-m_-8753708564735179778MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-=
left:0in">It seems like kind of a problem to have a normative algorithm ref=
erence to a random personal Website.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">That web page has pointers to papers, perhaps they s=
hould be used instead.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"></p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>=
<br></div><div>That might be better. Basically, something that we can have =
some confidence will be stable.<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;" lang=3D"EN-US"><d=
iv class=3D"gmail-m_-8753708564735179778WordSection1"><div><div><div><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Or maybe someone can convince Simon Joseffson to wri=
te it up (as he has for many others :)<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div><=
/div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That seems great.</div><div><br=
></div><div>-Ekr</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddin=
g-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;" lang=3D"EN-US"><div c=
lass=3D"gmail-m_-8753708564735179778WordSection1"><div><div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

-- <br>
last-call mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:last-call@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">last-call@ietf.org<=
/a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/last-call" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/last-call</a><b=
r>
</blockquote></div></div>

--000000000000b47a1705b59388eb--


From nobody Thu Dec  3 11:57:54 2020
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Subject: [secdir] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-core-dev-urn-08
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Reviewer: Brian Weis
Review result: Serious Issues

I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's
ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the
IESG.  These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the
security area directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should
treat these comments just like any other last call comments.

The summary of the review is Ready with nits.

This document generally defines a new URN namespace for hardware
device identifiers, and then further defines the URN body layout
for several types of devices, where devices are identified by a
global identity (e.g., a MAC address, organizational-specific serial
number, etc.).

Long-term identifiers have privacy considerations, and these are
well documented here.

Here are some things that ought to be thought about:

(1) The Security Considerations section seems to focus on concerns
around devices not allowing the device identifiers to be modified,
and gives rather broad advice about a DEV URN implementation
faithfully representing the device. It would be good for this section
to also warn implementors of the risks of a DEV URN being transmitted
without integrity protection. That is, if the device faithfully
represents itself, a man in the middle changing the DEV URN in a
protocol may cause the system using the device to not manage the
device properly, or in some manner inappropriately adjust the privileges
allowed by the device within that system.

(2) Section 1 says about privacy “Note that long-term stable unique
identifiers are problematic for privacy reasons and should be used
with care or avoided as described in [RFC7721].” Given the later
guidance that “The DEV URN type SHOULD only be used for persistent
identifiers”, I think the “or avoided” portion of that sentence is
inappropriate for this document.

(3) Section 5 begins with “The following three examples provide
examples of MAC-based, 1-Wire, and Cryptographic identifiers”. There 
are now more than three examples provided (thanks for that!), and 
it appears that cryptographic identifiers have ben removed in an
earlier draft.



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Subject: Re: [secdir] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-core-dev-urn-08
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Oops: this review is marked =E2=80=9CSerious Issues=E2=80=9D, where (as =
mentioned in the comments)=20
I intended it to be =E2=80=9CReady with nits=E2=80=9D.  Sorry for the =
confusion.

Brian

> On Dec 3, 2020, at 11:57 AM, Brian Weis via Datatracker =
<noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
> Reviewer: Brian Weis
> Review result: Serious Issues
>=20
> I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's
> ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the
> IESG.  These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the
> security area directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should
> treat these comments just like any other last call comments.
>=20
> The summary of the review is Ready with nits.
>=20
> This document generally defines a new URN namespace for hardware
> device identifiers, and then further defines the URN body layout
> for several types of devices, where devices are identified by a
> global identity (e.g., a MAC address, organizational-specific serial
> number, etc.).
>=20
> Long-term identifiers have privacy considerations, and these are
> well documented here.
>=20
> Here are some things that ought to be thought about:
>=20
> (1) The Security Considerations section seems to focus on concerns
> around devices not allowing the device identifiers to be modified,
> and gives rather broad advice about a DEV URN implementation
> faithfully representing the device. It would be good for this section
> to also warn implementors of the risks of a DEV URN being transmitted
> without integrity protection. That is, if the device faithfully
> represents itself, a man in the middle changing the DEV URN in a
> protocol may cause the system using the device to not manage the
> device properly, or in some manner inappropriately adjust the =
privileges
> allowed by the device within that system.
>=20
> (2) Section 1 says about privacy =E2=80=9CNote that long-term stable =
unique
> identifiers are problematic for privacy reasons and should be used
> with care or avoided as described in [RFC7721].=E2=80=9D Given the =
later
> guidance that =E2=80=9CThe DEV URN type SHOULD only be used for =
persistent
> identifiers=E2=80=9D, I think the =E2=80=9Cor avoided=E2=80=9D portion =
of that sentence is
> inappropriate for this document.
>=20
> (3) Section 5 begins with =E2=80=9CThe following three examples =
provide
> examples of MAC-based, 1-Wire, and Cryptographic identifiers=E2=80=9D. =
There=20
> are now more than three examples provided (thanks for that!), and=20
> it appears that cryptographic identifiers have ben removed in an
> earlier draft.
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> secdir mailing list
> secdir@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdir
> wiki: http://tools.ietf.org/area/sec/trac/wiki/SecDirReview


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Review instructions and related resources are at:
http://tools.ietf.org/area/sec/trac/wiki/SecDirReview

For telechat 2020-12-03

Reviewer               LC end     Draft
Daniel Gillmor         2020-09-30 draft-ietf-ccamp-layer0-types-08
Steve Hanna            2020-09-30 draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-yang-27
Christopher Wood      R2019-11-06 draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-23

For telechat 2020-12-17

Reviewer               LC end     Draft
Christian Huitema      2020-12-14 draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirements-04
Mališa Vučinić         2020-12-04 draft-ietf-bmwg-b2b-frame-03
Samuel Weiler          2020-12-02 draft-ietf-extra-sieve-mailboxid-06

Last calls:

Reviewer               LC end     Draft
Donald Eastlake        2020-12-10 draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-14
Shawn Emery            2020-12-08 draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-11
Daniel Franke          2020-09-18 draft-ietf-jmap-mdn-15
Daniel Franke          2020-03-09 draft-ietf-regext-dnrd-objects-mapping-10
Daniel Gillmor         2020-09-30 draft-ietf-ccamp-layer0-types-08
Phillip Hallam-Baker   2020-12-03 draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests-06
Phillip Hallam-Baker   2020-09-30 draft-ietf-lwig-tcp-constrained-node-networks-13
Steve Hanna            2020-09-30 draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-yang-27
Dan Harkins            2020-12-30 draft-carpenter-eligibility-expand-08
Dan Harkins            None       draft-ietf-rtgwg-policy-model-03
Russ Housley           2020-12-15 draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd-09
Christian Huitema      2020-12-14 draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirements-04
Leif Johansson         None       draft-ietf-netconf-crypto-types-18
Leif Johansson         2020-10-02 draft-ietf-lpwan-schc-over-lorawan-13
Kathleen Moriarty      2020-07-20 draft-ietf-ace-oscore-profile-13
Russ Mundy             2020-07-20 draft-ietf-ace-dtls-authorize-14
Sandra Murphy          2020-10-15 draft-ietf-tls-external-psk-importer-06
Tirumaleswar Reddy.K   2020-11-16 draft-ietf-quic-transport-32
Rich Salz             R2020-08-14 draft-ietf-suit-architecture-14
Mališa Vučinić         2020-12-04 draft-ietf-bmwg-b2b-frame-03
Carl Wallace           2020-12-09 draft-ietf-roll-unaware-leaves-23
Samuel Weiler          2020-12-02 draft-ietf-extra-sieve-mailboxid-06
Klaas Wierenga         2020-12-02 draft-ietf-core-echo-request-tag-11
Klaas Wierenga         2020-05-26 draft-ietf-kitten-krb-spake-preauth-09
Christopher Wood       2020-09-23 draft-ietf-6man-rfc4941bis-12
Christopher Wood      R2019-11-06 draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-23
Paul Wouters           2020-09-08 draft-ietf-i2nsf-capability-data-model-13
Liang Xia              2020-11-30 draft-ietf-spring-sr-yang-28

Early review requests:

Reviewer               Due        Draft
Nancy Cam-Winget       2020-12-07 draft-ietf-idr-ext-opt-param-09
Linda Dunbar           2020-12-07 draft-ietf-idr-bgp-optimal-route-reflection-21
Steve Hanna            2020-12-23 draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-integrity-01
Dacheng Zhang          2020-12-07 draft-ietf-idr-eag-distribution-13

Next in the reviewer rotation:

  Charlie Kaufman
  Scott Kelly
  Tero Kivinen
  Watson Ladd
  Chris Lonvick
  Aanchal Malhotra
  David Mandelberg
  Catherine Meadows
  Alexey Melnikov
  Daniel Migault




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Reviewer: Kathleen Moriarty
Review result: Ready

Thank you for your work on this document, it appears ready for publication.



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Reviewer: Christian Huitema
Review result: Ready

This document presents a set of requirements for how "Prefix Delegating Relays" should
handle the relaying of IPv6 Prefix delegation requests between DHCP clients and DHCP servers.

This document is Ready. But please fix one tiny nit.

Prefix Delegating Relays are more complex than simple DHCP relays. Instead of
merely passing information back and forth between DHCP clients and DHCP servers,
they also need to install IPv6 routes so the allocated IPv6 prefix is routed towards
the client to which the prefix is allocated via DHCP. The document explains
issues found during past deployments, and presents a set of requirements to
ensure smooth operation of the service.

As written in the security section, stating these requrements does not add
any new security considerations beyond those mentioned in RFC 8213, which requires
using IPSEC between DHCP relay and DHCP server. This is fine and I believe that
the draft is ready, except for one nit. The draft mentions "Section 22 of [RFC8213]",
but RFC 8213 only has 6 sections. Since that RFC is entirely about "Security of
Messages Exchanged between Servers and Relay Agents", I don't understand why the
draft needs to mention this bogus "Section 22". Are the authors trying to trick
this reviewer?

There is a security issue concerning communication between clients and relays. This
draft is not the place to address it, which is why I think it is ready, but I can't
resist using this review to pass a message to the working group. On link attackers
could spoof requests for prefix delegation, or responses, just like
they can spoof any DHCP message. Spoofing prefix delegation requests might be a way
to attack networks, or to cause support issues between clients and providers.
RFC 8213 "suggests" using secure DHCPv6 between client and server, but the "secure
DHCPv6" draft cited in RFC 8213 is now expired. I understand that solutions like RA
Guard will in practice provide some protection, but the use of these solutions are
not discussed in RFC 8213. The DHCP WG might want to address that.

 



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From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
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Hi Ondřej,

Just because someone else does something, even a "big name", doesn't
necessarily make it a good idea for us to also do it.
We should be able to justify our algorithm choices on cryptographic
principles, not just appeal to authority.

In a similar vein, you said something about the 32-bit timestamp being wide
enough to prevent brute-force attacks.  Could you say a bit more about what
attacks those are that are being prevented?  I'm not really seeing how the
width of the timestamp comes into play for that concern, just from a quick
skim of the document.  (Timestamps tend to not provide much protection
against brute force by themselves, since time is relatively guessable,
especially to seconds precision.)

Thanks,

Ben

On Wed, Dec 02, 2020 at 11:18:29PM +0100, Ondřej Surý wrote:
> SYN cookies in both Linux and FreeBSD uses siphash.
> 
> * FreeBSD: https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=revision&revision=253210 (since 2013)
> * Linux: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/fe62d05b295bde037fa324767674540907c89362#diff-14feef60c3dbcf67539f089de04546c907233cbae09e1b2dd2c2bc6d6eae4416 (since 2017)
> 
> I believe that the SYN cookies have exactly the same properties as DNS cookies.
> 
> Ondrej
> --
> Ondřej Surý (He/Him)
> ondrej@isc.org
> 
> > On 2. 12. 2020, at 22:15, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
> > 
> > Well hash tables are an application with somewhat different security properties than MACs, so I don't think this is dispositive.
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> secdir mailing list
> secdir@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdir
> wiki: http://tools.ietf.org/area/sec/trac/wiki/SecDirReview


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Hi Benjamin,

I did not used appeal to authority as an argument, but I=E2=80=99ve just pro=
vided examples that SipHash has been implemented in the similar scenarios an=
d there hasn=E2=80=99t been reported issue with the choice for years now.

Using fast PRF (pseudorandom function) for the DNS Cookies is a good choice b=
ecause it matches the required properties - it needs to be fast and secure i=
n a sense that attacker can=E2=80=99t compute neither the key nor the output=
 of the function. DNS Cookies are not MACs.

Sorry for the misnomer of the brute force - what I meant was a protection ag=
ainst a replay attack. I=E2=80=99m just currently very tired with day to day=
 job.

Please note that DNS Cookies doesn=E2=80=99t protect the actual DNS message p=
ayload, it merely provide means to establish trust between the client and th=
e server as to distinguish between a legitimate and spoofed traffic, so diff=
erent policies can be used - Response Rate Limiting (RRL) could be turned of=
f for DNS messages with cookies or when under attack it could require fallba=
ck to TCP for DNS queries without the DNS Cookie. The DNS cookies doesn=E2=80=
=99t protect the actual content in any way, neither it does protect the comm=
unication from the on path adversary.

In that regard, the client cookie is just nonce (and it=E2=80=99s just conve=
nient to use same algorithm to generate it, but it could be output from CSPR=
NG as well) and the server cookie is a cryptographic primitive that uses the=
 client nonce, key and timestamp to construct the server cookie. Such server=
 cookie is used by the DNS client to authenticate to the server (it=E2=80=99=
s shared secret, but it requires no per-client state on the server). Just to=
 repeat, the actual payload (DNS message) is not protected by the DNS cookie=
.

If the DNS server could keep a state for every DNS client, a CS random numbe=
r would be as good as the output of the SipHash.

I might not be a cryptographer as my daily job, but I am reasonably confiden=
t that SipHash has matching properties, it hasn=E2=80=99t been broken as of t=
oday. Also all DNS vendors have agreed to make this choice and the RFC here i=
s merely a way how to ensure interoperability between various implementation=
s.

(Typing this on phone, so excuse any irregularities in the text.)
Ondrej
--
Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD =E2=80=94 ISC (He/Him)

> On 4. 12. 2020, at 21:37, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFHi Ond=C5=99ej,
>=20
> Just because someone else does something, even a "big name", doesn't
> necessarily make it a good idea for us to also do it.
> We should be able to justify our algorithm choices on cryptographic
> principles, not just appeal to authority.
>=20
> In a similar vein, you said something about the 32-bit timestamp being wid=
e
> enough to prevent brute-force attacks.  Could you say a bit more about wha=
t
> attacks those are that are being prevented?  I'm not really seeing how the=

> width of the timestamp comes into play for that concern, just from a quick=

> skim of the document.  (Timestamps tend to not provide much protection
> against brute force by themselves, since time is relatively guessable,
> especially to seconds precision.)
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Ben
>=20
>> On Wed, Dec 02, 2020 at 11:18:29PM +0100, Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD wrote:
>> SYN cookies in both Linux and FreeBSD uses siphash.
>>=20
>> * FreeBSD: https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=3Drevision&revision=3D253=
210 (since 2013)
>> * Linux: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/fe62d05b295bde037fa3247=
67674540907c89362#diff-14feef60c3dbcf67539f089de04546c907233cbae09e1b2dd2c2b=
c6d6eae4416 (since 2017)
>>=20
>> I believe that the SYN cookies have exactly the same properties as DNS co=
okies.
>>=20
>> Ondrej
>> --
>> Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD (He/Him)
>> ondrej@isc.org
>>=20
>>>> On 2. 12. 2020, at 22:15, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Well hash tables are an application with somewhat different security pro=
perties than MACs, so I don't think this is dispositive.
>>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> secdir mailing list
>> secdir@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdir
>> wiki: http://tools.ietf.org/area/sec/trac/wiki/SecDirReview


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From: Brian Dickson <brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2020 13:31:09 -0800
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To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
Cc: =?UTF-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?= <ondrej@isc.org>, last-call@ietf.org,  draft-ietf-dnsop-server-cookies.all@ietf.org, dnsop WG <dnsop@ietf.org>,  secdir@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [secdir] [DNSOP] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-dnsop-server-cookies-04
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On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 12:39 PM Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:

> Hi Ond=C5=99ej,
>
> In a similar vein, you said something about the 32-bit timestamp being wi=
de
> enough to prevent brute-force attacks.  Could you say a bit more about wh=
at
> attacks those are that are being prevented?  I'm not really seeing how th=
e
> width of the timestamp comes into play for that concern, just from a quic=
k
> skim of the document.  (Timestamps tend to not provide much protection
> against brute force by themselves, since time is relatively guessable,
> especially to seconds precision.)
>

I think the timestamp being used as input to the hash provides a particular
protection to brute forcing.
Since the output (hash) is a function of the input, this means that any
attempt to brute force some other element which is an input to the hash,
will be constrained by an element over which the attacker has no control.

The timestamp is a monotonically increasing (modulo 32) value, which
changes every second.
This places a time window for a brute force attack, to be of a 1 second
duration.
Alternatively, it can be considered as increasing the entropy, meaning the
brute force attempt would need to include all potential values of the
timestamp over the cookie lifetime.
I believe the 30 minutes or 1 hour lifetime adds enough entropy to
significantly increase the work required for a brute force attack.

I don't think the absolute size of the timestamp value (in bits) plays any
part here.

Brian Dickson

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 12:39 PM Benja=
min Kaduk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kaduk@mit.edu">kaduk@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Ond=C5=99ej,=
<br><br>
In a similar vein, you said something about the 32-bit timestamp being wide=
<br>
enough to prevent brute-force attacks.=C2=A0 Could you say a bit more about=
 what<br>
attacks those are that are being prevented?=C2=A0 I&#39;m not really seeing=
 how the<br>
width of the timestamp comes into play for that concern, just from a quick<=
br>
skim of the document.=C2=A0 (Timestamps tend to not provide much protection=
<br>
against brute force by themselves, since time is relatively guessable,<br>
especially to seconds precision.)<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I thi=
nk the timestamp being used as input to the hash provides a particular prot=
ection to brute forcing.</div><div>Since the output (hash) is a function of=
 the input, this means that any attempt to brute force some other element w=
hich is an input to the hash, will be constrained by an element over which =
the attacker has no control.</div><div><br></div><div>The timestamp is a mo=
notonically increasing (modulo 32) value, which changes every second.</div>=
<div>This places a time window for a brute force attack, to be of a 1 secon=
d duration.</div><div>Alternatively, it can be considered as increasing the=
 entropy, meaning the brute force attempt would need to include all potenti=
al values of the timestamp over the cookie lifetime.</div><div>I believe th=
e 30 minutes or 1 hour lifetime adds enough entropy to significantly increa=
se the work required for a brute force attack.</div><div><br></div><div>I d=
on&#39;t think the absolute size of the timestamp value (in bits) plays any=
 part here.</div><div><br></div><div>Brian Dickson</div></div></div>

--0000000000008c3ca105b5aa32df--


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To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, =?utf-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?= <ondrej@isc.org>
CC: "last-call@ietf.org" <last-call@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-dnsop-server-cookies.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dnsop-server-cookies.all@ietf.org>, dnsop WG <dnsop@ietf.org>, "secdir@ietf.org" <secdir@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [secdir] [DNSOP] [Last-Call] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-dnsop-server-cookies-04
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From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
To: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz=40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,
 Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, =?UTF-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?=
 <ondrej@isc.org>
Cc: "last-call@ietf.org" <last-call@ietf.org>,
 "draft-ietf-dnsop-server-cookies.all@ietf.org"
 <draft-ietf-dnsop-server-cookies.all@ietf.org>, dnsop WG <dnsop@ietf.org>,
 "secdir@ietf.org" <secdir@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <d827684d-3d60-6f30-cfdb-e598025b32e3@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [DNSOP] [Last-Call] [secdir] Secdir last call review of
 draft-ietf-dnsop-server-cookies-04
References: <160693121881.9413.5642470305677631145@ietfa.amsl.com>
 <17AFD6F5-11DA-41BC-8C37-E1893648041D@isc.org>
 <CABcZeBPRn3aTBsApawvk_Ecyzdbi+SX9=b74y0_uhYx_Y8p-5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <51A61472-45D7-4133-80BC-1F470B5CBD84@isc.org>
 <20201204203635.GS64351@kduck.mit.edu>
 <320692C5-9C47-4CE6-8D6C-A62C2B50728F@akamai.com>
In-Reply-To: <320692C5-9C47-4CE6-8D6C-A62C2B50728F@akamai.com>

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Hiya,

On 05/12/2020 14:58, Salz, Rich wrote:
> There is a fair amount of academic study around SipHash, and while
> everyone can make mistakes, its creators have a pretty good
> reputation. I don't think we can say SipHash is unknown in the
> industry.
>=20
> The TLSWG made it a practice to ask CFRG to "approve" all crypto it
> used (except perhapd HKDF, but that's a side note). The DNSOP has no
> such practice.

FWIW, I think asking CFRG for comment (not approval) whenever
a new algorithm is introduced onto the standards-track is a
good idea, regardless of the WG from which the draft came.
Such checks don't mean anyone thinks badly of any algorithm,
the argument is it's better to ask a question in the place
where the expertise lies, just in case.

Cheers,
S.

>=20
> If SECDIR or the Ads thinks SipHash isn't good, it would be great to
> hear reasons.  I haven't heard any yet.
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list=20
> DNSOP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>=20

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From: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, =?utf-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?= <ondrej@isc.org>
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Thread-Topic: [DNSOP] [Last-Call] [secdir] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-dnsop-server-cookies-04
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 10:58:38 -0800
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To: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz=40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, =?UTF-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?= <ondrej@isc.org>,  "last-call@ietf.org" <last-call@ietf.org>,  "draft-ietf-dnsop-server-cookies.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dnsop-server-cookies.all@ietf.org>, dnsop WG <dnsop@ietf.org>,  "secdir@ietf.org" <secdir@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [secdir] [DNSOP] [Last-Call] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-dnsop-server-cookies-04
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On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 6:58 AM Salz, Rich <rsalz=40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
wrote:

> There is a fair amount of academic study around SipHash, and while
> everyone can make mistakes, its creators have a pretty good reputation. I
> don't think we can say SipHash is unknown in the industry.
>
> The TLSWG made it a practice to ask CFRG to "approve" all crypto it used
> (except perhapd HKDF, but that's a side note). The DNSOP has no such
> practice.
>

I recognize that this is a bigger issue, but I believe this should be the
practice for the IETF as a whole and I would encourage the SEC ADs to work
to make it so.

-Ekr



> If SECDIR or the Ads thinks SipHash isn't good, it would be great to hear
> reasons.  I haven't heard any yet.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 6:58 AM Salz, =
Rich &lt;rsalz=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40akamai.co=
m@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex">There is a fair amount of academic study around SipHash, an=
d while everyone can make mistakes, its creators have a pretty good reputat=
ion. I don&#39;t think we can say SipHash is unknown in the industry.<br>
<br>
The TLSWG made it a practice to ask CFRG to &quot;approve&quot; all crypto =
it used (except perhapd HKDF, but that&#39;s a side note). The DNSOP has no=
 such practice.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I recognize that this i=
s a bigger issue, but I believe this should be the practice for the IETF as=
 a whole and I would encourage the SEC ADs to work to make it so.<br></div>=
<div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
If SECDIR or the Ads thinks SipHash isn&#39;t good, it would be great to he=
ar reasons.=C2=A0 I haven&#39;t heard any yet.<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
DNSOP mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:DNSOP@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">DNSOP@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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From: Shawn Emery <shawn.emery@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 15:30:44 -0700
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Subject: [secdir] Review of draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-11
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Reviewer: Shawn M. Emery
Review result: Ready with nits

I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's
ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.
These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security
area directors. Document editors and WG chairs should treat these
comments just like any other last call comments.

This standards track draft specifies data fields in the In-situ Operations,
Administration,
and Maintenance (IOAM) scheme.  The data fields contain operational and
telemetry
information in a network domain.  "In-situ" refers to the fact that the
associated data is
actually encapsulated in the data packet itself rather than through a
separate OAM
packet.

The security considerations section does exist and describes multiple
vulnerabilities
to the IOAM.  Attackers can create both false-positives and false-negatives
in regards
to failures or the true state of the domain.  This can eventually lead to
DoS attacks.
Another form of DoS is by crafting an IOAM header to packets thereby
increasing the
resources required or exceeding the packet beyond the network's MTU size.

Verifying the path of the data packets is deferred to
draft-ietf-sfc-proof-of-transit's security
consideration section which has good coverage and ways to mitigate the
various attacks
on the protocol.  Eavesdropping is also possible, which can reveal
operational and telemetry
data of the network domain.

IOAM also utilizes timestamps, in which an attack on the time
synchronization protocol can
affect the timestamp fields in IOAM.  In addition the management
functionality of IOAM could
also be targeted, but suggests authentication and integrity checks to
protect against said attacks.

Various measures against these attacks are not prescribed based on the fact
that this specification
is about the data fields of IOAM.  However, I think it would be beneficial
to provide some guidance
(at least for future specifications) for each of these attacks
that utilize these data fields else why
articulate the security issues at all?

General comments:

None.

Editorial comments:


None.


Shawn.
--

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Reviewer: Shawn M. Emery<br>Review result: Ready with nits=
<br><br>I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate&#=
39;s<br>ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the =
IESG.<br>These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the secur=
ity<br>area directors. Document editors and WG chairs should treat these<br=
>comments just like any other last call comments.<br><br>This standards tra=
ck draft specifies data fields in the In-situ Operations, Administration,<d=
iv>and Maintenance (IOAM) scheme.=C2=A0 The data fields contain operational=
 and telemetry</div><div>information in a network domain.=C2=A0 &quot;In-si=
tu&quot; refers=C2=A0to the fact that the associated data is</div><div>actu=
ally encapsulated in the data packet itself rather than through a separate =
OAM</div><div>packet.</div><div><br>The security considerations section doe=
s exist and describes multiple vulnerabilities</div><div>to the IOAM.=C2=A0=
 Attackers can create both false-positives and false-negatives in regards</=
div><div>to failures or the true state of the domain.=C2=A0 This can eventu=
ally lead to DoS attacks.</div><div>Another form of DoS is by crafting an I=
OAM header to packets thereby increasing the</div><div>resources required o=
r exceeding the packet beyond the network&#39;s MTU size.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Verifying the path of the data packets is deferred to draft-ietf-sf=
c-proof-of-transit&#39;s security</div><div>consideration section which has=
 good coverage and ways to mitigate the various attacks</div><div>on the pr=
otocol.=C2=A0 Eavesdropping is also possible, which can reveal operational =
and telemetry</div><div>data of the network domain.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>IOAM also utilizes timestamps, in which an attack on the time synchroniza=
tion protocol can</div><div>affect the timestamp fields in IOAM.=C2=A0 In a=
ddition the management functionality of IOAM could</div><div>also be target=
ed, but suggests authentication and integrity checks to protect against sai=
d attacks.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Various measures against these attack=
s are not prescribed based on the fact that this specification</div><div>is=
 about the data fields of IOAM.=C2=A0 However, I think it would be benefici=
al to provide some guidance</div><div>(at least for future specifications) =
for each of these attacks that=C2=A0utilize=C2=A0these data fields else=C2=
=A0why</div><div>articulate the security issues at all?</div><div><br><font=
 face=3D"arial, sans-serif">General comments:<br><br>None.</font></div><div=
><font face=3D"arial, sans-serif"><br>Editorial comments:<br></font><pre cl=
ass=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bo=
ttom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"arial, sans-seri=
f"><br></font></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333=
px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><fo=
nt face=3D"arial, sans-serif">None.</font></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage=
" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-befor=
e:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"arial, sans-serif"><br></font></pre>=
<font face=3D"arial, sans-serif">Shawn.<br>--</font><br></div></div>

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From: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 16:35:37 +0530
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To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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Subject: Re: [secdir] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirements-04
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Thanks Christian.  Reference is corrected and will be available in next
version.

Yours,
Naveen.


On Sat, 5 Dec 2020 at 01:34, Christian Huitema via Datatracker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> Reviewer: Christian Huitema
> Review result: Ready
>
> This document presents a set of requirements for how "Prefix Delegating
> Relays" should
> handle the relaying of IPv6 Prefix delegation requests between DHCP
> clients and DHCP servers.
>
> This document is Ready. But please fix one tiny nit.
>
> Prefix Delegating Relays are more complex than simple DHCP relays. Instead
> of
> merely passing information back and forth between DHCP clients and DHCP
> servers,
> they also need to install IPv6 routes so the allocated IPv6 prefix is
> routed towards
> the client to which the prefix is allocated via DHCP. The document explains
> issues found during past deployments, and presents a set of requirements to
> ensure smooth operation of the service.
>
> As written in the security section, stating these requrements does not add
> any new security considerations beyond those mentioned in RFC 8213, which
> requires
> using IPSEC between DHCP relay and DHCP server. This is fine and I believe
> that
> the draft is ready, except for one nit. The draft mentions "Section 22 of
> [RFC8213]",
> but RFC 8213 only has 6 sections. Since that RFC is entirely about
> "Security of
> Messages Exchanged between Servers and Relay Agents", I don't understand
> why the
> draft needs to mention this bogus "Section 22". Are the authors trying to
> trick
> this reviewer?
>
> There is a security issue concerning communication between clients and
> relays. This
> draft is not the place to address it, which is why I think it is ready,
> but I can't
> resist using this review to pass a message to the working group. On link
> attackers
> could spoof requests for prefix delegation, or responses, just like
> they can spoof any DHCP message. Spoofing prefix delegation requests might
> be a way
> to attack networks, or to cause support issues between clients and
> providers.
> RFC 8213 "suggests" using secure DHCPv6 between client and server, but the
> "secure
> DHCPv6" draft cited in RFC 8213 is now expired. I understand that
> solutions like RA
> Guard will in practice provide some protection, but the use of these
> solutions are
> not discussed in RFC 8213. The DHCP WG might want to address that.
>
>
>
>
>

--000000000000e1590405b5ddce23
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks Christian.=C2=A0 Reference is corrected and will be=
 available in next version.<div><br clear=3D"all"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" cla=
ss=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Yours,<br>Naveen.=
</div></div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, 5 Dec 2020 at 01:34, Christian Huitema via Da=
tatracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Reviewer:=
 Christian Huitema<br>
Review result: Ready<br>
<br>
This document presents a set of requirements for how &quot;Prefix Delegatin=
g Relays&quot; should<br>
handle the relaying of IPv6 Prefix delegation requests between DHCP clients=
 and DHCP servers.<br>
<br>
This document is Ready. But please fix one tiny nit.<br>
<br>
Prefix Delegating Relays are more complex than simple DHCP relays. Instead =
of<br>
merely passing information back and forth between DHCP clients and DHCP ser=
vers,<br>
they also need to install IPv6 routes so the allocated IPv6 prefix is route=
d towards<br>
the client to which the prefix is allocated via DHCP. The document explains=
<br>
issues found during past deployments, and presents a set of requirements to=
<br>
ensure smooth operation of the service.<br>
<br>
As written in the security section, stating these requrements does not add<=
br>
any new security considerations beyond those mentioned in RFC 8213, which r=
equires<br>
using IPSEC between DHCP relay and DHCP server. This is fine and I believe =
that<br>
the draft is ready, except for one nit. The draft mentions &quot;Section 22=
 of [RFC8213]&quot;,<br>
but RFC 8213 only has 6 sections. Since that RFC is entirely about &quot;Se=
curity of<br>
Messages Exchanged between Servers and Relay Agents&quot;, I don&#39;t unde=
rstand why the<br>
draft needs to mention this bogus &quot;Section 22&quot;. Are the authors t=
rying to trick<br>
this reviewer?<br>
<br>
There is a security issue concerning communication between clients and rela=
ys. This<br>
draft is not the place to address it, which is why I think it is ready, but=
 I can&#39;t<br>
resist using this review to pass a message to the working group. On link at=
tackers<br>
could spoof requests for prefix delegation, or responses, just like<br>
they can spoof any DHCP message. Spoofing prefix delegation requests might =
be a way<br>
to attack networks, or to cause support issues between clients and provider=
s.<br>
RFC 8213 &quot;suggests&quot; using secure DHCPv6 between client and server=
, but the &quot;secure<br>
DHCPv6&quot; draft cited in RFC 8213 is now expired. I understand that solu=
tions like RA<br>
Guard will in practice provide some protection, but the use of these soluti=
ons are<br>
not discussed in RFC 8213. The DHCP WG might want to address that.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000e1590405b5ddce23--


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From: "Bernie Volz (volz)" <volz@cisco.com>
To: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.com>
CC: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "secdir@ietf.org" <secdir@ietf.org>, "last-call@ietf.org" <last-call@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirements.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirements.all@ietf.org>, "dhcwg@ietf.org" <dhcwg@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirements-04
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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 08:03:22 -0500
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References: <F5FE0A09-351E-4ED5-8880-A7EE943B8EA9@cisco.com>
Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.com>, last-call@ietf.org, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirements.all@ietf.org, dhcwg@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org
In-Reply-To: <F5FE0A09-351E-4ED5-8880-A7EE943B8EA9@cisco.com>
To: "Bernie Volz (volz)" <volz=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/secdir/6Ov0r1_rMdc2-OwBPWCF8mxXAHU>
Subject: Re: [secdir] [Last-Call] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirements-04
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Also, Christian, RA guard only works in a managed environment. In an unmanag=
ed environment it will break things. It would be wise to be careful about wh=
en and where you recommend it or we will wind up with interoperability probl=
ems. This is probably outside of the DHC wg=E2=80=99s bailiwick.=20

> On Dec 7, 2020, at 07:32, Bernie Volz (volz) <volz=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.iet=
f.org> wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF FYI:
>=20
>>> I understand that solutions like RA
>>> Guard will in practice provide some protection, but the use of these sol=
utions are
>>> not discussed in RFC 8213. The DHCP WG might want to address that.
>=20
> RFC8415=E2=80=99s security considerations is rather extensive and includes=
 reference to many techniques to reduce the issues. 8213 was written while 8=
415 was under development.
>=20
> - Bernie
>=20
>>> On Dec 7, 2020, at 6:06 AM, Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.com> w=
rote:
>>>=20
>> =EF=BB=BF
>> Thanks Christian.  Reference is corrected and will be available in next v=
ersion.
>>=20
>> Yours,
>> Naveen.
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Sat, 5 Dec 2020 at 01:34, Christian Huitema via Datatracker <noreply@=
ietf.org> wrote:
>>> Reviewer: Christian Huitema
>>> Review result: Ready
>>>=20
>>> This document presents a set of requirements for how "Prefix Delegating R=
elays" should
>>> handle the relaying of IPv6 Prefix delegation requests between DHCP clie=
nts and DHCP servers.
>>>=20
>>> This document is Ready. But please fix one tiny nit.
>>>=20
>>> Prefix Delegating Relays are more complex than simple DHCP relays. Inste=
ad of
>>> merely passing information back and forth between DHCP clients and DHCP s=
ervers,
>>> they also need to install IPv6 routes so the allocated IPv6 prefix is ro=
uted towards
>>> the client to which the prefix is allocated via DHCP. The document expla=
ins
>>> issues found during past deployments, and presents a set of requirements=
 to
>>> ensure smooth operation of the service.
>>>=20
>>> As written in the security section, stating these requrements does not a=
dd
>>> any new security considerations beyond those mentioned in RFC 8213, whic=
h requires
>>> using IPSEC between DHCP relay and DHCP server. This is fine and I belie=
ve that
>>> the draft is ready, except for one nit. The draft mentions "Section 22 o=
f [RFC8213]",
>>> but RFC 8213 only has 6 sections. Since that RFC is entirely about "Secu=
rity of
>>> Messages Exchanged between Servers and Relay Agents", I don't understand=
 why the
>>> draft needs to mention this bogus "Section 22". Are the authors trying t=
o trick
>>> this reviewer?
>>>=20
>>> There is a security issue concerning communication between clients and r=
elays. This
>>> draft is not the place to address it, which is why I think it is ready, b=
ut I can't
>>> resist using this review to pass a message to the working group. On link=
 attackers
>>> could spoof requests for prefix delegation, or responses, just like
>>> they can spoof any DHCP message. Spoofing prefix delegation requests mig=
ht be a way
>>> to attack networks, or to cause support issues between clients and provi=
ders.
>>> RFC 8213 "suggests" using secure DHCPv6 between client and server, but t=
he "secure
>>> DHCPv6" draft cited in RFC 8213 is now expired. I understand that soluti=
ons like RA
>>> Guard will in practice provide some protection, but the use of these sol=
utions are
>>> not discussed in RFC 8213. The DHCP WG might want to address that.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
> --=20
> last-call mailing list
> last-call@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/last-call

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr">Also, Christian, RA guard o=
nly works in a managed environment. In an unmanaged environment it will brea=
k things. It would be wise to be careful about when and where you recommend i=
t or we will wind up with interoperability problems. This is probably outsid=
e of the DHC wg=E2=80=99s bailiwick.&nbsp;</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockq=
uote type=3D"cite">On Dec 7, 2020, at 07:32, Bernie Volz (volz) &lt;volz=3D4=
0cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org&gt; wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF

<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8">


FYI:
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border=
-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
I understand that solutions like RA<br>
Guard will in practice provide some protection, but the use of these solutio=
ns are<br>
not discussed in RFC 8213. The DHCP WG might want to address that.</blockquo=
te>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>RFC8415=E2=80=99s security considerations is rather extensive and inclu=
des reference to many techniques to reduce the issues. 8213 was written whil=
e 8415 was under development.</div>
<br>
<div dir=3D"ltr">- Bernie</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">On Dec 7, 2020, at 6:06 AM, Naveen Kottapalli &lt;=
naveen.sarma@gmail.com&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF
<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks Christian.&nbsp; Reference is corrected and will be a=
vailable in next version.
<div><br clear=3D"all">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature=
">Yours,<br>
Naveen.</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, 5 Dec 2020 at 01:34, Christian=
 Huitema via Datatracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org">noreply@iet=
f.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Reviewer: Christian Huitema<br>
Review result: Ready<br>
<br>
This document presents a set of requirements for how "Prefix Delegating Rela=
ys" should<br>
handle the relaying of IPv6 Prefix delegation requests between DHCP clients a=
nd DHCP servers.<br>
<br>
This document is Ready. But please fix one tiny nit.<br>
<br>
Prefix Delegating Relays are more complex than simple DHCP relays. Instead o=
f<br>
merely passing information back and forth between DHCP clients and DHCP serv=
ers,<br>
they also need to install IPv6 routes so the allocated IPv6 prefix is routed=
 towards<br>
the client to which the prefix is allocated via DHCP. The document explains<=
br>
issues found during past deployments, and presents a set of requirements to<=
br>
ensure smooth operation of the service.<br>
<br>
As written in the security section, stating these requrements does not add<b=
r>
any new security considerations beyond those mentioned in RFC 8213, which re=
quires<br>
using IPSEC between DHCP relay and DHCP server. This is fine and I believe t=
hat<br>
the draft is ready, except for one nit. The draft mentions "Section 22 of [R=
FC8213]",<br>
but RFC 8213 only has 6 sections. Since that RFC is entirely about "Security=
 of<br>
Messages Exchanged between Servers and Relay Agents", I don't understand why=
 the<br>
draft needs to mention this bogus "Section 22". Are the authors trying to tr=
ick<br>
this reviewer?<br>
<br>
There is a security issue concerning communication between clients and relay=
s. This<br>
draft is not the place to address it, which is why I think it is ready, but I=
 can't<br>
resist using this review to pass a message to the working group. On link att=
ackers<br>
could spoof requests for prefix delegation, or responses, just like<br>
they can spoof any DHCP message. Spoofing prefix delegation requests might b=
e a way<br>
to attack networks, or to cause support issues between clients and providers=
.<br>
RFC 8213 "suggests" using secure DHCPv6 between client and server, but the "=
secure<br>
DHCPv6" draft cited in RFC 8213 is now expired. I understand that solutions l=
ike RA<br>
Guard will in practice provide some protection, but the use of these solutio=
ns are<br>
not discussed in RFC 8213. The DHCP WG might want to address that.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>


<span>-- </span><br><span>last-call mailing list</span><br><span>last-call@i=
etf.org</span><br><span>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/last-call</spa=
n><br></div></blockquote></body></html>=

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To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>, "Bernie Volz (volz)" <volz=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: secdir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirements.all@ietf.org,  last-call@ietf.org, Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.com>, dhcwg@ietf.org
References: <F5FE0A09-351E-4ED5-8880-A7EE943B8EA9@cisco.com> <1B6C9B2E-A750-44C5-A1AC-703482FB1AF4@fugue.com>
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Subject: Re: [secdir] [Last-Call] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirements-04
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On 12/7/2020 5:03 AM, Ted Lemon wrote:
> Also, Christian, RA guard only works in a managed environment. In an 
> unmanaged environment it will break things. It would be wise to be 
> careful about when and where you recommend it or we will wind up with 
> interoperability problems. This is probably outside of the DHC wg’s 
> bailiwick.

But I am being careful -- I am not asking for any change in the draft, 
except for a trivial nit. I am just pointing out that there are attacks 
and that the proposed solution in 8213 did not pan out. It would be nice 
is there was guidance available on how to secure DHCP clients and 
servers "in practice", especially if your attack model includes virus of 
fishing attacks overtaking an authorized client inside the perimeter.

-- Christian Huitema


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Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 17:23:32 -0800
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [secdir] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-dnsop-server-cookies-04
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Hi Ondřej,

Thanks for this detailed writeup; it really helps bring clarity to the
current situation.

In light of the follow-ups from others, it seems that there are actually
two distinct but somewhat entangled issues:

(1) whether SipHash is a strong cryptographic hash function that delivers
its stated properties.

(2) whether the stated properties of SipHash are appropriate for the
scenario we are using it for in this document.

I had initially assumed that Stephen's review was asking about (2), but for
the most part we tend to ask CFRG about things like (1).  So, while I agree
that it's valuable to get input from the CFRG on (1) and am willing to
start the conversation there if needed, I would also like to get Stephen's
(or anyone else's really) input about question (2).  I suspect that we are
okay in that regard, not least because of the other similar usage that you
describe, but request that the analysis of what properties we need from a
hash function for this use case (and that SipHash meets them) be included
in a future version of the draft.

Thanks again,

Ben

On Fri, Dec 04, 2020 at 10:14:29PM +0100, Ondřej Surý wrote:
> Hi Benjamin,
> 
> I did not used appeal to authority as an argument, but I’ve just provided examples that SipHash has been implemented in the similar scenarios and there hasn’t been reported issue with the choice for years now.
> 
> Using fast PRF (pseudorandom function) for the DNS Cookies is a good choice because it matches the required properties - it needs to be fast and secure in a sense that attacker can’t compute neither the key nor the output of the function. DNS Cookies are not MACs.
> 
> Sorry for the misnomer of the brute force - what I meant was a protection against a replay attack. I’m just currently very tired with day to day job.
> 
> Please note that DNS Cookies doesn’t protect the actual DNS message payload, it merely provide means to establish trust between the client and the server as to distinguish between a legitimate and spoofed traffic, so different policies can be used - Response Rate Limiting (RRL) could be turned off for DNS messages with cookies or when under attack it could require fallback to TCP for DNS queries without the DNS Cookie. The DNS cookies doesn’t protect the actual content in any way, neither it does protect the communication from the on path adversary.
> 
> In that regard, the client cookie is just nonce (and it’s just convenient to use same algorithm to generate it, but it could be output from CSPRNG as well) and the server cookie is a cryptographic primitive that uses the client nonce, key and timestamp to construct the server cookie. Such server cookie is used by the DNS client to authenticate to the server (it’s shared secret, but it requires no per-client state on the server). Just to repeat, the actual payload (DNS message) is not protected by the DNS cookie.
> 
> If the DNS server could keep a state for every DNS client, a CS random number would be as good as the output of the SipHash.
> 
> I might not be a cryptographer as my daily job, but I am reasonably confident that SipHash has matching properties, it hasn’t been broken as of today. Also all DNS vendors have agreed to make this choice and the RFC here is merely a way how to ensure interoperability between various implementations.
> 
> (Typing this on phone, so excuse any irregularities in the text.)
> Ondrej
> --
> Ondřej Surý — ISC (He/Him)
> 
> > On 4. 12. 2020, at 21:37, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
> > 
> > ﻿Hi Ondřej,
> > 
> > Just because someone else does something, even a "big name", doesn't
> > necessarily make it a good idea for us to also do it.
> > We should be able to justify our algorithm choices on cryptographic
> > principles, not just appeal to authority.
> > 
> > In a similar vein, you said something about the 32-bit timestamp being wide
> > enough to prevent brute-force attacks.  Could you say a bit more about what
> > attacks those are that are being prevented?  I'm not really seeing how the
> > width of the timestamp comes into play for that concern, just from a quick
> > skim of the document.  (Timestamps tend to not provide much protection
> > against brute force by themselves, since time is relatively guessable,
> > especially to seconds precision.)
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Ben
> > 
> >> On Wed, Dec 02, 2020 at 11:18:29PM +0100, Ondřej Surý wrote:
> >> SYN cookies in both Linux and FreeBSD uses siphash.
> >> 
> >> * FreeBSD: https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=revision&revision=253210 (since 2013)
> >> * Linux: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/fe62d05b295bde037fa324767674540907c89362#diff-14feef60c3dbcf67539f089de04546c907233cbae09e1b2dd2c2bc6d6eae4416 (since 2017)
> >> 
> >> I believe that the SYN cookies have exactly the same properties as DNS cookies.
> >> 
> >> Ondrej
> >> --
> >> Ondřej Surý (He/Him)
> >> ondrej@isc.org
> >> 
> >>>> On 2. 12. 2020, at 22:15, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> Well hash tables are an application with somewhat different security properties than MACs, so I don't think this is dispositive.
> >>> 
> >> 
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> secdir mailing list
> >> secdir@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdir
> >> wiki: http://tools.ietf.org/area/sec/trac/wiki/SecDirReview
> 


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On 12/7/2020 4:31 AM, Bernie Volz (volz) wrote:
> FYI:
>
>>     I understand that solutions like RA
>>     Guard will in practice provide some protection, but the use of
>>     these solutions are
>>     not discussed in RFC 8213. The DHCP WG might want to address that.
>>
>
> RFC8415’s security considerations is rather extensive and includes 
> reference to many techniques to reduce the issues. 8213 was written 
> while 8415 was under development.

In the context of the draft, I am concerned in particular with the 
"resource-exhaustion" DoS attack, through exhaustion of delegatable 
prefixes. The attack is mentioned in the security section of 8415, but I 
have not seen the proposed mitigation.

-- Christian Huitema



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<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
  </head>
  <body>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/7/2020 4:31 AM, Bernie Volz
      (volz) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:F5FE0A09-351E-4ED5-8880-A7EE943B8EA9@cisco.com">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      FYI:
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <div dir="ltr">
            <div class="gmail_quote">
              <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px
                0.8ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204);
                padding-left: 1ex;">
                I understand that solutions like RA<br>
                Guard will in practice provide some protection, but the
                use of these solutions are<br>
                not discussed in RFC 8213. The DHCP WG might want to
                address that.</blockquote>
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>RFC8415’s security considerations is rather extensive and
          includes reference to many techniques to reduce the issues.
          8213 was written while 8415 was under development.</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <p>In the context of the draft, I am concerned in particular with
      the "resource-exhaustion" DoS attack, through exhaustion of
      delegatable prefixes. The attack is mentioned in the security
      section of 8415, but I have not seen the proposed mitigation.</p>
    <p>-- Christian Huitema<br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
  </body>
</html>

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From: "Bernie Volz (volz)" <volz@cisco.com>
To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
CC: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.com>, "secdir@ietf.org" <secdir@ietf.org>, "last-call@ietf.org" <last-call@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirements.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirements.all@ietf.org>, "dhcwg@ietf.org" <dhcwg@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Last-Call] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirements-04
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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2020 02:01:32 +0000
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Subject: Re: [secdir] [Last-Call] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirements-04
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Cc: Naveen Kottapalli <naveen.sarma@gmail.com>, secdir@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org, draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirements.all@ietf.org, dhcwg@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [secdir] [Last-Call] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-pd-relay-requirements-04
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I do not think this is a new issue that should be fixed in this document. I h=
ave written that a couple times already. I do think that it would be nice to=
 work on another document describing best practices to secure DHCP services.=


-- Christian Huitema=20

> On Dec 7, 2020, at 6:01 PM, Bernie Volz (volz) <volz@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF There really aren=E2=80=99t any. Clients can generate different c=
lient-id and request prefix after prefix.=20
>=20
> However, as this document points out these relays usually have limits to w=
hat it may track (and likely it would drop those packets from reaching clien=
t).
>=20
> In some deployments, the number of prefixes allowed behind a particular re=
lay is limited (at server or relay). Other mitigations may be shorter leases=
 as then it comes down to how many can be requested during that time.
>=20
> The main question is what does this benefit anyone? It is a DoS but in gen=
eral it has limited impact as prefixes tend to be topological, so it isn=E2=80=
=99t like you could assign all of the prefixes an ISP has =E2=80=94 just wha=
t is allowed on that link.
>=20
> Why do you think this is a new issue that needs to be fixed in this docume=
nt?
>=20
> In my experience we have not seen these kinds of attacks as they aren=E2=80=
=99t very useful. And it has been a dhcp issue since dhcpv4 (addresses were m=
uch more scarce).
>=20
> We tried securing dhcpv6...but it isn=E2=80=99t an easy problem to solve.
>=20
> - Bernie
>=20
>>> On Dec 7, 2020, at 8:06 PM, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> wrot=
e:
>>>=20
>> =EF=BB=BF
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On 12/7/2020 4:31 AM, Bernie Volz (volz) wrote:
>>> FYI:
>>>=20
>>>>> I understand that solutions like RA
>>>>> Guard will in practice provide some protection, but the use of these s=
olutions are
>>>>> not discussed in RFC 8213. The DHCP WG might want to address that.
>>>=20
>>> RFC8415=E2=80=99s security considerations is rather extensive and includ=
es reference to many techniques to reduce the issues. 8213 was written while=
 8415 was under development.
>> In the context of the draft, I am concerned in particular with the "resou=
rce-exhaustion" DoS attack, through exhaustion of delegatable prefixes. The a=
ttack is mentioned in the security section of 8415, but I have not seen the p=
roposed mitigation.
>>=20
>> -- Christian Huitema
>>=20
>>=20

--Apple-Mail-C3F89CC6-C8D2-4AF0-B20A-C20744FB42A4
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">I do not think this is a new issue that sho=
uld be fixed in this document. I have written that a couple times already. I=
 do think that it would be nice to work on another document describing best p=
ractices to secure DHCP services.<br><br><div dir=3D"ltr">-- Christian Huite=
ma&nbsp;</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On Dec 7, 2020,=
 at 6:01 PM, Bernie Volz (volz) &lt;volz@cisco.com&gt; wrote:<br><br></block=
quote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF

<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8">


There really aren=E2=80=99t any. Clients can generate different client-id an=
d request prefix after prefix.&nbsp;
<div><br>
</div>
<div>However, as this document points out these relays usually have limits t=
o what it may track (and likely it would drop those packets from reaching cl=
ient).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In some deployments, the number of prefixes allowed behind a particular=
 relay is limited (at server or relay). Other mitigations may be shorter lea=
ses as then it comes down to how many can be requested during that time.</di=
v>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The main question is what does this benefit anyone? It is a DoS but in g=
eneral it has limited impact as prefixes tend to be topological, so it isn=E2=
=80=99t like you could assign all of the prefixes an ISP has =E2=80=94 just w=
hat is allowed on that link.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Why do you think this is a new issue that needs to be fixed in this doc=
ument?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In my experience we have not seen these kinds of attacks as they aren=E2=
=80=99t very useful. And it has been a dhcp issue since dhcpv4 (addresses we=
re much more scarce).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We tried securing dhcpv6...but it isn=E2=80=99t an easy problem to solv=
e.</div>
<div>
<div><br>
<div dir=3D"ltr">- Bernie</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">On Dec 7, 2020, at 8:06 PM, Christian Huitema &lt;=
huitema@huitema.net&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF
<p><br>
</p>
<div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 12/7/2020 4:31 AM, Bernie Volz (volz) wrot=
e:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:F5FE0A09-351E-4ED5-8880-A7EE943B8EA9@c=
isco.com">
FYI:
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px
                0.8ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204);
                padding-left: 1ex;">
I understand that solutions like RA<br>
Guard will in practice provide some protection, but the use of these solutio=
ns are<br>
not discussed in RFC 8213. The DHCP WG might want to address that.</blockquo=
te>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>RFC8415=E2=80=99s security considerations is rather extensive and inclu=
des reference to many techniques to reduce the issues. 8213 was written whil=
e 8415 was under development.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>In the context of the draft, I am concerned in particular with the "resou=
rce-exhaustion" DoS attack, through exhaustion of delegatable prefixes. The a=
ttack is mentioned in the security section of 8415, but I have not seen the p=
roposed mitigation.</p>
<p>-- Christian Huitema<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>


</div></blockquote></body></html>=

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To: "iesg@ietf.org" <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip.all@ietf.org
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Subject: [secdir] SECDIR review of draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-14
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I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's ongoing
effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  Document
editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any other last
call comments.

The summary of the review is Ready with Issues.

Security:
This is a very high level Informational document about a general method of
traffic engineering using multiple BGP sessions and PCE. The Security
Considerations section is adequate except that I would recommend adding a
reference for BGP security, perhaps to RFC 7454.

Other Issues:
The title of the document doesn't really make it clear what it is about and
does not spell out some acronyms. I suggest the following:

Path Computation Element (PCE) Traffic Engineering (TE) in Native IP
NetworkNetworks


Editorial:
There are a number of editorial/typo issues including the curious lack of
any expansion or definition for the first three acronyms listed in Section
2 on Terminology and what appears to be a line sliced off the bottom of
Figure 3. Also, I think a reference should be given where BGP Flowspec is
mentioned in Section 7.1, presumably to the rfc5575bis draft. See attached
for detailed change suggestions in MS Word with tracked changes and,
alternatively, as a PDF thereof.

Thanks,
Donald
===============================
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 2386 Panoramic Circle, Apopka, FL 32703 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=
=3D"gmail_signature">I have reviewed this document as part of the security =
directorate&#39;s ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being process=
ed by the IESG.=C2=A0 Document editors and WG chairs should treat these com=
ments just like any other last call comments.<br><br>The summary of the rev=
iew is Ready with Issues.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" d=
ata-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Security:</div><div class=3D"gmail_signa=
ture" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">This is a very high level Informat=
ional document about a general method of traffic engineering using multiple=
 BGP sessions and PCE. The Security Considerations section is adequate exce=
pt that I would recommend adding a reference for BGP security, perhaps to R=
FC 7454.</div><div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signat=
ure"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signa=
ture">Other Issues:</div><div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"g=
mail_signature">The title of the document doesn&#39;t really make it clear =
what it is about and does not spell out some acronyms. I suggest the follow=
ing:</div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><=
div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Path Compu=
tation Element (PCE) Traffic Engineering (TE) in Native IP NetworkNetworks<=
/div></blockquote><div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_si=
gnature"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_s=
ignature">Editorial:</div><div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"=
gmail_signature">There are a number of editorial/typo issues including the =
curious lack of any expansion or definition for the first three acronyms li=
sted in Section 2 on Terminology and what appears to be a line sliced off t=
he bottom of Figure 3. Also, I think a reference should be given where BGP =
Flowspec is mentioned in Section 7.1, presumably to the rfc5575bis draft. S=
ee attached for detailed change suggestions in MS Word with tracked changes=
 and, alternatively, as a PDF thereof.</div><div class=3D"gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmai=
l_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Thanks,</div><div dir=3D"lt=
r" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Donald<br>=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>=C2=A0Donald E. Eastlake 3rd =C2=A0 +1-508-333-2270 (=
cell)<br>=C2=A02386 Panoramic Circle, Apopka, FL 32703 USA<br>=C2=A0<a href=
=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">d3e3e3@gmail.com<br></a></di=
v></div>

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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2020 09:32:22 +0100
From: "Carles Gomez Montenegro" <carlesgo@entel.upc.edu>
To: "Catherine Meadows" <catherine.meadows@nrl.navy.mil>
Cc: secdir@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org, draft-ietf-6lo-blemesh.all@ietf.org,  6lo@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [secdir] [6lo] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-6lo-blemesh-08
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Hi Catherine,

Sorry for the late reply.

Thank you very much for your review, which has been very valuable to us.

We understand that no action is needed from our side in the context of
your review.

Should you have any further comments, please do not hesitate to let us know.

Cheers,

Carles (on behalf of the authors)


> Reviewer: Catherine Meadows
> Review result: Ready
>
> I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's
> ongoing
> effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These
> comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area
> directors.
>  Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any
> other
> last call comments. This document specifies mechanisms that are needed to
> enable IPv6 mesh topologies over Bluetooth Low Energy Links established
> using
> the Bluetooth Internet Protocol Support Profile.  It does not specify the
> routing protocol to be used in an IPv6, and it does not specify security
> mechanisms.
>
> In the Security Considerations Section the document directs the reader to
> the
> relevant documents. For most security issues, it points the reader to RFC
> 7668,
> “IPv6 over BLUETOOTH(R) Low Energy.”  For security issues produced by
> the
> routing protocol, the reader is directed to RFC 7416, “ A Security
> Threat
> Analysis for the Routing Protocol for Low-Power and Lossy Networks
> (RPLs)”, and
> it is noted that the issues addressed in that RFC are useful for other low
> energy routing protocols as well.  Finally it is noted that the
> Registration
> Ownership Verifier (ROVR) field can be derived from the Bluetooth address,
> and
> that this field is also subject to impersonation and spoofing.  For this
> the
> document refers the reader the Internet Draft on "Address Protected
> Neighbor
> Discovery for Low-power and Lossy Networks.”
>
> I think that this document does an excellent job of identifying the
> relevant
> security issues to related to its topic, and of directing the reader to
> the
> relevant documents.
>
> I consider this document Ready.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> 6lo mailing list
> 6lo@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6lo
>



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Hiya,

(I wouldn't put that much store on my specific response, but
since you asked...)

On 08/12/2020 01:23, Benjamin Kaduk wrote:
> Hi Ond=C5=99ej,
>=20
> Thanks for this detailed writeup; it really helps bring clarity to the
> current situation.
>=20
> In light of the follow-ups from others, it seems that there are actuall=
y
> two distinct but somewhat entangled issues:
>=20
> (1) whether SipHash is a strong cryptographic hash function that delive=
rs
> its stated properties.

Right. And whether there are any oddities, e.g. ways in which
one ought not use the algorithm. Asking about that is IMO a
good plan because once this gets used somewhere it'll be used
again elsewhere so I'd prefer we know if/when that's ok or
not. (Additionally, I'll admit a slight personal bias against
adding new algorithms where we have existing ones that are
fine - I figure that just costs more and damages interop for
little or no benefit. That could be outweighed though if the
new alg is already implemented and deployed for the purpose
in question and/or if it's widely available in libraries.)

>=20
> (2) whether the stated properties of SipHash are appropriate for the
> scenario we are using it for in this document.

For DNS cookies, I'd say it'd be very unlikely that this is
not ok.

Cheers,
S.


>=20
> I had initially assumed that Stephen's review was asking about (2), but=
 for
> the most part we tend to ask CFRG about things like (1).  So, while I a=
gree
> that it's valuable to get input from the CFRG on (1) and am willing to
> start the conversation there if needed, I would also like to get Stephe=
n's
> (or anyone else's really) input about question (2).  I suspect that we =
are
> okay in that regard, not least because of the other similar usage that =
you
> describe, but request that the analysis of what properties we need from=
 a
> hash function for this use case (and that SipHash meets them) be includ=
ed
> in a future version of the draft.
>=20
> Thanks again,
>=20
> Ben
>=20
> On Fri, Dec 04, 2020 at 10:14:29PM +0100, Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD wrote:
>> Hi Benjamin,
>>
>> I did not used appeal to authority as an argument, but I=E2=80=99ve ju=
st provided examples that SipHash has been implemented in the similar sce=
narios and there hasn=E2=80=99t been reported issue with the choice for y=
ears now.
>>
>> Using fast PRF (pseudorandom function) for the DNS Cookies is a good c=
hoice because it matches the required properties - it needs to be fast an=
d secure in a sense that attacker can=E2=80=99t compute neither the key n=
or the output of the function. DNS Cookies are not MACs.
>>
>> Sorry for the misnomer of the brute force - what I meant was a protect=
ion against a replay attack. I=E2=80=99m just currently very tired with d=
ay to day job.
>>
>> Please note that DNS Cookies doesn=E2=80=99t protect the actual DNS me=
ssage payload, it merely provide means to establish trust between the cli=
ent and the server as to distinguish between a legitimate and spoofed tra=
ffic, so different policies can be used - Response Rate Limiting (RRL) co=
uld be turned off for DNS messages with cookies or when under attack it c=
ould require fallback to TCP for DNS queries without the DNS Cookie. The =
DNS cookies doesn=E2=80=99t protect the actual content in any way, neithe=
r it does protect the communication from the on path adversary.
>>
>> In that regard, the client cookie is just nonce (and it=E2=80=99s just=
 convenient to use same algorithm to generate it, but it could be output =
from CSPRNG as well) and the server cookie is a cryptographic primitive t=
hat uses the client nonce, key and timestamp to construct the server cook=
ie. Such server cookie is used by the DNS client to authenticate to the s=
erver (it=E2=80=99s shared secret, but it requires no per-client state on=
 the server). Just to repeat, the actual payload (DNS message) is not pro=
tected by the DNS cookie.
>>
>> If the DNS server could keep a state for every DNS client, a CS random=
 number would be as good as the output of the SipHash.
>>
>> I might not be a cryptographer as my daily job, but I am reasonably co=
nfident that SipHash has matching properties, it hasn=E2=80=99t been brok=
en as of today. Also all DNS vendors have agreed to make this choice and =
the RFC here is merely a way how to ensure interoperability between vario=
us implementations.
>>
>> (Typing this on phone, so excuse any irregularities in the text.)
>> Ondrej
>> --
>> Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD =E2=80=94 ISC (He/Him)
>>
>>> On 4. 12. 2020, at 21:37, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> =EF=BB=BFHi Ond=C5=99ej,
>>>
>>> Just because someone else does something, even a "big name", doesn't
>>> necessarily make it a good idea for us to also do it.
>>> We should be able to justify our algorithm choices on cryptographic
>>> principles, not just appeal to authority.
>>>
>>> In a similar vein, you said something about the 32-bit timestamp bein=
g wide
>>> enough to prevent brute-force attacks.  Could you say a bit more abou=
t what
>>> attacks those are that are being prevented?  I'm not really seeing ho=
w the
>>> width of the timestamp comes into play for that concern, just from a =
quick
>>> skim of the document.  (Timestamps tend to not provide much protectio=
n
>>> against brute force by themselves, since time is relatively guessable=
,
>>> especially to seconds precision.)
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Ben
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Dec 02, 2020 at 11:18:29PM +0100, Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD wrot=
e:
>>>> SYN cookies in both Linux and FreeBSD uses siphash.
>>>>
>>>> * FreeBSD: https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=3Drevision&revision=3D=
253210 (since 2013)
>>>> * Linux: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/fe62d05b295bde037f=
a324767674540907c89362#diff-14feef60c3dbcf67539f089de04546c907233cbae09e1=
b2dd2c2bc6d6eae4416 (since 2017)
>>>>
>>>> I believe that the SYN cookies have exactly the same properties as D=
NS cookies.
>>>>
>>>> Ondrej
>>>> --
>>>> Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD (He/Him)
>>>> ondrej@isc.org
>>>>
>>>>>> On 2. 12. 2020, at 22:15, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Well hash tables are an application with somewhat different securit=
y properties than MACs, so I don't think this is dispositive.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> secdir mailing list
>>>> secdir@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdir
>>>> wiki: http://tools.ietf.org/area/sec/trac/wiki/SecDirReview
>>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>=20

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-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

--------------6FDA43A02FABDAF43A69738C--

--ExVB2Qoiko5GtaK9yl8HB32ev7zNouOnO--

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Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--yUnDk8M4VytKCSRxIKXkjK9AI5qRap8sP--


From nobody Tue Dec  8 08:20:52 2020
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From: Russ Housley via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
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Reviewer: Russ Housley
Review result: Has Issues

I reviewed this document as part of the Security Directorate's ongoing
effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These
comments were written primarily for the benefit of the Security Area
Directors.  Document authors, document editors, and WG chairs should
treat these comments just like any other IETF Last Call comments.

Document: draft-ietf-bess-evpn-proxy-arp-nd-09
Reviewer: Russ Housley
Review Date: 2020-12-08
IETF LC End Date: 2020-12-15
IESG Telechat date: unknown

Summary: Has Issues


Major Concerns:  I worry about the reference to SEND (RFC 3971).  The
  SEND protocol only supports digital signatures using RSA with SHA-1.
  While this still might be adequate for the time scales associated 
  with ND, the 80-bit security offered by SHA-1 is not considered
  adequate for digital signatures in general.  Is the reference to
  SEND really needed in this document?


Minor Concerns:  None


Nits:  The Gen-ART review by me includes some editorial suggestions.




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Hi, Donald:

=20

Thanks for your careful review.

I have updated the draft according to your suggestions, except one minor =
change for the name of the document.=20

It seems =E2=80=9CPath Computation Element (PCE) based Traffic =
Engineering (TE) in Native IP Network=E2=80=9Dis more better?

=20

I have uploaded the new version on the IETF repository.

Detail responses are inline below.

=20

=20

Best Regards

=20

Aijun Wang

China Telecom

=20

From: d3e3e3@gmail.com <d3e3e3@gmail.com>=20
Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 1:58 PM
To: iesg@ietf.org; draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip.all@ietf.org
Cc: secdir <secdir@ietf.org>; last-call@ietf.org
Subject: SECDIR review of draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-14

=20

I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's =
ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. =
 Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like =
any other last call comments.

The summary of the review is Ready with Issues.

=20

Security:

This is a very high level Informational document about a general method =
of traffic engineering using multiple BGP sessions and PCE. The Security =
Considerations section is adequate except that I would recommend adding =
a reference for BGP security, perhaps to RFC 7454.

[WAJ] Done, thanks.

=20

Other Issues:

The title of the document doesn't really make it clear what it is about =
and does not spell out some acronyms. I suggest the following:

Path Computation Element (PCE) Traffic Engineering (TE) in Native IP =
NetworkNetworks

[WAJ] Just add one word =E2=80=9Cbased=E2=80=9D to become =E2=80=9CPath =
Computation Element (PCE) based Traffic Engineering (TE) in Native IP =
Network=E2=80=9D

=20

Editorial:

There are a number of editorial/typo issues including the curious lack =
of any expansion or definition for the first three acronyms listed in =
Section 2 on Terminology and what appears to be a line sliced off the =
bottom of Figure 3. Also, I think a reference should be given where BGP =
Flowspec is mentioned in Section 7.1, presumably to the rfc5575bis =
draft. See attached for detailed change suggestions in MS Word with =
tracked changes and, alternatively, as a PDF thereof.

[WAJ] Done, thanks.

=20

Thanks,

Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 2386 Panoramic Circle, Apopka, FL 32703 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com <mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com>=20



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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DZH-CN link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E7=AD=89=E7=BA=BF;color:#1F497D'>H=
i, Donald:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E7=AD=89=E7=BA=BF;color:#1F497D'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E7=AD=89=E7=BA=BF;color:#1F497D'>T=
hanks for your careful review.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E7=AD=89=E7=BA=BF;color:#1F497D'>I=
 have updated the draft according to your suggestions, except one minor =
change for the name of the document. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E7=AD=89=E7=BA=BF;color:#1F497D'>I=
t seems </span><span lang=3DEN-US>=E2=80=9CPath Computation Element =
(PCE) <u>based</u> Traffic Engineering (TE) in Native IP =
Network=E2=80=9D</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E7=AD=89=E7=BA=BF;color:#1F497D'>i=
s more better?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E7=AD=89=E7=BA=BF;color:#1F497D'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E7=AD=89=E7=BA=BF;color:#1F497D'>I=
 have uploaded the new version on the IETF =
repository.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E7=AD=89=E7=BA=BF;color:#1F497D'>D=
etail responses are inline below.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E7=AD=89=E7=BA=BF;color:#1F497D'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E7=AD=89=E7=BA=BF;color:#1F497D'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E7=AD=89=E7=BA=BF;color:#1F497D'>B=
est Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E7=AD=89=E7=BA=BF;color:#1F497D'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E7=AD=89=E7=BA=BF;color:#1F497D'>A=
ijun Wang<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E7=AD=89=E7=BA=BF;color:#1F497D'>C=
hina Telecom<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph'><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E7=AD=89=E7=BA=BF;color:#1F497D'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:21.0pt;mso-para-margin-left:1.75gd'><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
d3e3e3@gmail.com &lt;d3e3e3@gmail.com&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, =
December 8, 2020 1:58 PM<br><b>To:</b> iesg@ietf.org; =
draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip.all@ietf.org<br><b>Cc:</b> secdir =
&lt;secdir@ietf.org&gt;; last-call@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> SECDIR =
review of draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-14<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:21.0pt;mso-para-margin-left:1.75gd'><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:21.0pt;mso-para-margin-left:1.75gd'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>I have reviewed this document as part of the security =
directorate's ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being =
processed by the IESG.&nbsp; Document editors and WG chairs should treat =
these comments just like any other last call comments.<br><br>The =
summary of the review is Ready with =
Issues.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:21.0pt;mso-para-margin-left:1.75gd'><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:21.0pt;mso-para-margin-left:1.75gd'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Security:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:21.0pt;mso-para-margin-left:1.75gd'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>This is a very high level Informational document about a =
general method of traffic engineering using multiple BGP sessions and =
PCE. The Security Considerations section is adequate except that I would =
recommend adding a reference for BGP security, perhaps to RFC =
7454.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:21.0pt'><b><i><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E7=AD=89=E7=BA=BF;color:#1F497D'>[=
WAJ] Done, thanks.</span></i></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E7=AD=89=E7=BA=BF;color:#1F497D'><=
o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:21.0pt;mso-para-margin-left:1.75gd'><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:21.0pt;mso-para-margin-left:1.75gd'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Other Issues:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:21.0pt;mso-para-margin-left:1.75gd'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>The title of the document doesn't really make it clear what =
it is about and does not spell out some acronyms. I suggest the =
following:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-left:30.0pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:21.0pt;mso-para-margin-left:1.75gd'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Path Computation Element (PCE) Traffic Engineering (TE) in =
Native IP NetworkNetworks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:21.0pt'><b><i><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E7=AD=89=E7=BA=BF;color:#1F497D'>[=
WAJ] Just add one word =E2=80=9Cbased=E2=80=9D to become =
</span></i></b><span lang=3DEN-US>=E2=80=9CPath Computation Element =
(PCE) <u>based</u> Traffic Engineering (TE) in Native IP =
Network=E2=80=9D</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E7=AD=89=E7=BA=BF;color:#1F497D'><=
o:p></o:p></span></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:21.0pt;mso-para-margin-left:1.75gd'><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:21.0pt;mso-para-margin-left:1.75gd'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Editorial:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:21.0pt;mso-para-margin-left:1.75gd'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>There are a number of editorial/typo issues including the =
curious lack of any expansion or definition for the first three acronyms =
listed in Section 2 on Terminology and what appears to be a line sliced =
off the bottom of Figure 3. Also, I think a reference should be given =
where BGP Flowspec is mentioned in Section 7.1, presumably to the =
rfc5575bis draft. See attached for detailed change suggestions in MS =
Word with tracked changes and, alternatively, as a PDF =
thereof.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:21.0pt'><b><i><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E7=AD=89=E7=BA=BF;color:#1F497D'>[=
WAJ] Done, thanks.</span></i></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E7=AD=89=E7=BA=BF;color:#1F497D'><=
o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:21.0pt;mso-para-margin-left:1.75gd'><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:21.0pt;mso-para-margin-left:1.75gd'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:21.0pt;mso-para-margin-left:1.75gd'><span =
lang=3DEN-US>Donald<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>&nbsp;Donald E. Eastlake =
3rd &nbsp; +1-508-333-2270 (cell)<br>&nbsp;2386 Panoramic Circle, =
Apopka, FL 32703 USA<br>&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:d3e3e3@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">d3e3e3@gmail.com<br></a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></d=
iv></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_0096_01D6CE15.A686B750--


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Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2020 07:42:42 -0500
From: Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
To: <draft-ietf-roll-unaware-leaves.all@ietf.org>, <secdir@ietf.org>, "iesg@ietf.org" <iesg@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: secdir review of  draft-ietf-roll-unaware-leaves
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Subject: [secdir] secdir review of  draft-ietf-roll-unaware-leaves
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I reviewed this document as part of the Security Directorate's ongoing effo=
rt to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These comments=
 were written primarily for the benefit of the Security Area Directors.  Doc=
ument authors, document editors, and WG chairs should treat these comments j=
ust like any other IETF Last Call comments.

This specification updates RFC6550, RFC6775, and RFC8505, to provide routin=
g services to RPL Unaware Leaves that implement 6LoWPAN ND and the extension=
s therein. The changes described in the draft largely consist of defining so=
me previously undefined reserved flags (including corresponding inclusion of=
 ROVR in existing message), redefining some status messages and extending us=
e of an existing message for additional mode of operation. Some questions an=
d comments are below. These could all be categorized minor nits focused on i=
mproving clarity.

General
- The document feels long given the magnitude of changes. There are some ex=
planatory sections that may be better off left as references to the normativ=
e specs. As someone unfamiliar with ROLL, I found reconciling explanatory te=
xt here with source docs difficult in spots.

Section 1
- In the introduction, the reference to RFC6687 in the first sentence of th=
e third paragraph seems misplaced. While the term 'path stretch' appears in =
that document, the concept being referenced doesn't seem to match and may be=
 better served by a reference to section 3.1 of RFC 6550.

Section 4.3.1
- The last sentence in section 4.3.1 probably belongs in (or should be repe=
ated) in Section 8. It seems odd to feature fresh standards language in a se=
ction that is providing background but not in the section enhancing the refe=
renced doc.

Section 5.1, 5.3 and 5.4
- There are a number of "is expected" instances that may benefit from being=
 written as SHOULD/SHOULD NOT or MUST/MUST NOT.

Section 5.2
- Language is unclear on whether decapsulation is required by a RUL. The st=
atement "the RUL, as an IPv6 Host, must be able to decapsulate the tunneled =
packet" is inconsistent with the last statement in the paragraph. Maybe chan=
ge first statement to "If a RUL supports terminating an IP-in-IP tunnel...".
- The statement "the Root terminates" may benefit from a SHOULD. The senten=
ce establishes when a SHOULD would not apply already. [USEofRPLinfo] has a S=
HOULD when making this same point in 4.1. Replacing this entire paragraph wi=
th the fourth paragraph in section 4.1 may be the right thing to do.

Section 6.1:
- What does "if the =E2=80=99F=E2=80=99 flag is reset" mean? Does it just mean set to 0=
?
- In the ROVRsz definition, why would values above 4 result in size being u=
nknown? Maybe this should say the meaning is unknown for values above 4.=20
- It states "an implementation SHOULD propagate the whole Target Option" wh=
en ROVRsz is greater than 4. In what cases should the whole target option no=
t be propagated?=20
- Should there be a "prefix length field MUST indicate 128 bits when F flag=
 is set" instead of ignoring the length and assuming 128?=20
- Should this section require bits not claimed by this spec to be set to ze=
ro as in 6550? This assumes this spec is only claiming 5 of 8 bits. That may=
 be worth clarifying as well.

Section 7
- What does "A 6LR and a Root that support this specification MUST implemen=
t the Non-Storing DCO" mean? The only definition of "non-storing DCO" appear=
s to be in the previous paragraph, which does not apply to the 6LR.

Section 9
- What does 'reset' mean in second paragraph? It seems to mean "not set".

Section 9.2.1
- This section begins by noting no changes are defined for the described pr=
ocess that is defined by various other specs. The section describes many req=
uirements including some that look to be new, i.e., first paragraph below th=
e bulleted list.



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From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>, "draft-ietf-roll-unaware-leaves.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-roll-unaware-leaves.all@ietf.org>, "secdir@ietf.org" <secdir@ietf.org>, "iesg@ietf.org" <iesg@ietf.org>
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Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 22:30:43 -0500
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To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [secdir] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-tls-exported-authenticator-13
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> On Nov 5, 2020, at 09:59, Yaron Sheffer via Datatracker =
<noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
> Reviewer: Yaron Sheffer
> Review result: Has Nits
>=20
> It's been a long time...
>=20
> My mail here [1] mentions two remaining open issues: a mention of QUIC =
and the
> code point.
>=20
> The first (small) issue seems to have been forgotten.

You are right, how about:

OLD:

 The application layer protocol
 used to send the authenticator request SHOULD use TLS as its
 underlying transport to keep the request confidential

NEW:

 The application layer protocol
 used to send the authenticator request SHOULD use a secure
 channel with equivalent security to TLS, such as
 QUIC [ID.draft-ietf-quic-tls], as its underlying transport
 to keep the request confidential

I will also add an informative to QUIC via a PR.

> I believe the second issue has been addressed by the WG, with the =
introduction
> of a new message type.
>=20
> [1] =
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/secdir/n54wuiSwCx9VqgSrrWvX_9FCoW0/

I believe it does as well.

spt=


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Review instructions and related resources are at:
http://tools.ietf.org/area/sec/trac/wiki/SecDirReview

For telechat 2020-12-17

Reviewer               LC end     Draft
Phillip Hallam-Baker   2020-12-03 draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests-07
Mališa Vučinić         2020-12-04 draft-ietf-bmwg-b2b-frame-03
Samuel Weiler          2020-12-02 draft-ietf-extra-sieve-mailboxid-06

For telechat 2021-01-07

Reviewer               LC end     Draft
Dan Harkins            2020-12-30 draft-carpenter-eligibility-expand-08

Last calls:

Reviewer               LC end     Draft
Daniel Franke          2020-09-18 draft-ietf-jmap-mdn-16
Daniel Franke          2020-03-09 draft-ietf-regext-dnrd-objects-mapping-10
Daniel Gillmor         2020-09-30 draft-ietf-ccamp-layer0-types-08
Phillip Hallam-Baker   2020-09-30 draft-ietf-lwig-tcp-constrained-node-networks-13
Phillip Hallam-Baker   2020-12-03 draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests-07
Steve Hanna            2020-09-30 draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-yang-27
Dan Harkins            None       draft-ietf-rtgwg-policy-model-03
Dan Harkins            2020-12-30 draft-carpenter-eligibility-expand-08
Leif Johansson         None       draft-ietf-netconf-crypto-types-18
Leif Johansson         2020-10-02 draft-ietf-lpwan-schc-over-lorawan-13
Charlie Kaufman        2021-01-04 draft-gont-numeric-ids-sec-considerations-06
Scott Kelly            2020-12-24 draft-ietf-pce-association-policy-15
Tero Kivinen           None       draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-pic-12
Watson Ladd            None       draft-ietf-rift-applicability-03
Russ Mundy             2020-07-20 draft-ietf-ace-dtls-authorize-14
Sandra Murphy          2020-10-15 draft-ietf-tls-external-psk-importer-06
Tirumaleswar Reddy.K   2020-11-16 draft-ietf-quic-transport-32
Rich Salz             R2020-08-14 draft-ietf-suit-architecture-14
Mališa Vučinić         2020-12-04 draft-ietf-bmwg-b2b-frame-03
Samuel Weiler          2020-12-02 draft-ietf-extra-sieve-mailboxid-06
Klaas Wierenga         2020-12-02 draft-ietf-core-echo-request-tag-11
Klaas Wierenga         2020-05-26 draft-ietf-kitten-krb-spake-preauth-09
Christopher Wood      R2019-11-06 draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-24
Christopher Wood       2020-09-23 draft-ietf-6man-rfc4941bis-12
Paul Wouters           2020-09-08 draft-ietf-i2nsf-capability-data-model-13
Liang Xia              2020-11-30 draft-ietf-spring-sr-yang-29

Early review requests:

Reviewer               Due        Draft
Nancy Cam-Winget       2020-12-07 draft-ietf-idr-ext-opt-param-09
Linda Dunbar           2020-12-07 draft-ietf-idr-bgp-optimal-route-reflection-21
Steve Hanna            2020-12-23 draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-integrity-01
Dacheng Zhang          2020-12-07 draft-ietf-idr-eag-distribution-13

Next in the reviewer rotation:

  Chris Lonvick
  Aanchal Malhotra
  David Mandelberg
  Catherine Meadows
  Alexey Melnikov
  Daniel Migault
  Adam Montville
  Kathleen Moriarty
  Russ Mundy
  Sandra Murphy




From nobody Mon Dec 14 10:30:33 2020
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From: Dan Harkins <dharkins@lounge.org>
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Subject: [secdir] secdir review of draft-carpenter-eligibility-expand
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   Greetings,

   I have reviewed draft-carpenter-eligibility-expand as part of the
security directorate's ongoing effort to review all IETF documents
being processed by the IESG.  These comments were written primarily
for the benefit of the security area directors.  Document editors
and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any other last
call comments.

   The draft proposes a temporary change (it calls this an "experiment")
in the process for qualifying volunteers to serve in the NOMCOM. This
is necessary due to the virtualization of IETFs 107-110. It lists
goals and new criteria for qualification as well as a way to revert
back to RFC 8713 when we return to normal in-person IETFs. It makes
sense.

  This draft will have no impact on the security of the Internet if
published. The summary of the review is Ready.

   regards,

   Dan.

-- 
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius


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<html>
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    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
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    <br>
    <pre class="wiki">  Greetings,

  I have reviewed draft-carpenter-eligibility-expand as part of the
security directorate's ongoing effort to review all IETF documents
being processed by the IESG.  These comments were written primarily
for the benefit of the security area directors.  Document editors
and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any other last
call comments.

  The draft proposes a temporary change (it calls this an "experiment")
in the process for qualifying volunteers to serve in the NOMCOM. This
is necessary due to the virtualization of IETFs 107-110. It lists
goals and new criteria for qualification as well as a way to revert
back to RFC 8713 when we return to normal in-person IETFs. It makes
sense.

 This draft will have no impact on the security of the Internet if
published. The summary of the review is Ready. 

  regards,

  Dan.

</pre>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to
escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius</pre>
  </body>
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From nobody Tue Dec 15 03:29:50 2020
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Reviewer: Mališa Vučinić
Review result: Ready

I reviewed this document as part of the Security Directorate's ongoing effort
to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. These comments were
written primarily for the benefit of the Security Area Directors. Document
authors, document editors, and WG chairs should treat these comments just like
any other IETF Last Call comments.

Thank you for this well-written document, it was a pleasure to read and I think
it is ready to proceed. Since the document updates RFC2544 benchmarking
procedure for estimating the buffer time of a Device Under Test (DUT), it does
not raise any security issues. Security Considerations section is quite clear
and it stresses that these tests are performed in a lab environment.

I do have a question regarding the last paragraph of the Security
Considerations on special capabilities of DUTs for benchmarking purposes.
Currently, the sentence reads: "Special capabilities SHOULD NOT exist in the
DUT/SUT specifically for benchmarking purposes." Why is this a SHOULD NOT and
not a MUST NOT? Could you give an example when such special capabilities in a
DUT are appropriate?




From nobody Tue Dec 15 05:45:36 2020
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From: =?UTF-8?B?TWFsacWhYQ==?= =?UTF-8?B?IFZ1xI1pbmnEhw==?= <malisa.vucinic@inria.fr>
To: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" <acm@research.att.com>, "secdir@ietf.org" <secdir@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [bmwg] Secdir telechat review of draft-ietf-bmwg-b2b-frame-03
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/secdir/-VqLe76ISAh_aJ3tRhEz2xHVXE8>
Subject: Re: [secdir] [bmwg] Secdir telechat review of draft-ietf-bmwg-b2b-frame-03
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Hi Al,

Thanks, that is clear. I think that discussing the assumption of honesty am=
ong the parties involved in benchmarking  would be a useful addition to the =
Security Considerations section in the draft.

Mali=C5=A1a

=EF=BB=BFOn 15/12/2020 14:45, "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" <acm@research.att.com> wrot=
e:

    Hi Mali=C5=A1a,=20
    thanks for your review, please see below for one reply to your question=
 (acm].
    Al
   =20
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: bmwg [mailto:bmwg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mali=C5=A1a Vucini=
c via
    > Datatracker
    > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2020 6:30 AM
    > To: secdir@ietf.org
    > Cc: last-call@ietf.org; bmwg@ietf.org; draft-ietf-bmwg-b2b-
    > frame.all@ietf.org
    > Subject: [bmwg] Secdir telechat review of draft-ietf-bmwg-b2b-frame-0=
3
    >=20
    > Reviewer: Mali=C5=A1a Vu=C4=8Dini=C4=87
    > Review result: Ready
    >=20
    > I reviewed this document as part of the Security Directorate's ongoin=
g
    > effort
    > to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. These comme=
nts
    > were
    > written primarily for the benefit of the Security Area Directors. Doc=
ument
    > authors, document editors, and WG chairs should treat these comments =
just
    > like
    > any other IETF Last Call comments.
    >=20
    > Thank you for this well-written document, it was a pleasure to read a=
nd I
    > think
    > it is ready to proceed. Since the document updates RFC2544 benchmarki=
ng
    > procedure for estimating the buffer time of a Device Under Test (DUT)=
, it
    > does
    > not raise any security issues. Security Considerations section is qui=
te
    > clear
    > and it stresses that these tests are performed in a lab environment.
    >=20
    > I do have a question regarding the last paragraph of the Security
    > Considerations on special capabilities of DUTs for benchmarking purpo=
ses.
    > Currently, the sentence reads: "Special capabilities SHOULD NOT exist=
 in
    > the
    > DUT/SUT specifically for benchmarking purposes." Why is this a SHOULD=
 NOT
    > and
    > not a MUST NOT? Could you give an example when such special capabilit=
ies
    > in a
    > DUT are appropriate?
    [acm]=20
    We can only make a strong recommendation in this area. As testers/bench=
markers are often independent from the DUT developers and conduct testing ex=
ternal to the DUT, we assume honesty among other parties but we cannot requi=
re it. If someone constructed a DUT that recognized test conditions and oper=
ated differently to perform better somehow, our tests would measure the inte=
nded "better" performance. It takes a special/additional test effort to prov=
e that a DUT has "designed to the test" (consider Volkswagen and fuel effici=
ency testing [0]).
   =20
    We simply do not have any authority in this matter, but we can let all =
parties know that gaming the test can be discovered and reported (albeit wit=
h more testing that we do not describe).
   =20
    [0] https://www.consumerreports.org/fuel-economy-efficiency/volkswagen-=
used-special-software-to-exaggerate-fuel-economy/
    =20
    >=20
    >=20
    >=20
    > _______________________________________________
    > bmwg mailing list
    > bmwg@ietf.org
    > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bmw=
g__;!
    > !BhdT!1JFeLsENzMU-ew89jxmJKxfp4wj5Zo3AZ6V8iULU3hWAentH1dymqJmDOvw7$
   =20



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From nobody Tue Dec 15 13:56:15 2020
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From: Linda Dunbar via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
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Cc: idr@ietf.org, draft-ietf-idr-bgp-optimal-route-reflection.all@ietf.org
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Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 13:56:11 -0800
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Subject: [secdir] Secdir early review of draft-ietf-idr-bgp-optimal-route-reflection-21
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Reviewer: Linda Dunbar
Review result: Has Nits

I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's ongoing
effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These
comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area directors.
 Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any other
 last call comments.

This document alters how  BGP Route Reflector computes the optimal routes on
behalf of clients. Instead using its own IGP cost to the AS Exit points, the
document describes the steps for RR to compute the optimal route by using 
Clients' position to the AS Exit points. The described method is useful when RR
is centralized.  For deployment with distributed RR closer to the clients, the
described method doesn't have any benefits.

Security Concern:
If RR's information of its clients topology is compromised, then the optimal
paths selected by the RR might not be accurate anymore.

Minor nits:
Page 7: Section 3.2.

"If the routing routing optimization requires ..."
Is it a typo? duplicated word "routing"?

Last sentence: "This needed for use cases ..."
Do you mean "This is needed for use cases ..."

Cheers,
Linda Dunbar



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From: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 21:01:29 -0800
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To: Nat Sakimura <nat@nat.consulting>
Cc: secdir <secdir@ietf.org>, IETF oauth WG <oauth@ietf.org>, last-call@ietf.org, draft-ietf-oauth-jwsreq.all@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [secdir] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-oauth-jwsreq-30
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On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 6:13 AM Nat Sakimura <nat@nat.consulting> wrote:
>
> Hi Watson,
>
> Thanks very much for the review. I thought I have sent my response
> earlier, which I actually did not. It was sitting in my draft box. I
> apologize for it.

My apologies for missing it in my inbox for a number of months.
>
> My responses inline:
>
> On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 9:46 AM Watson Ladd via Datatracker
> <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
> >
> > Reviewer: Watson Ladd
> > Review result: Serious Issues
> >
> > I generated this review of this document as part of the security direct=
orate's
> > ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG=
.  These
> > comments were written with the intent of improving security requirement=
s and
> > considerations in IETF drafts.  Comments not addressed in last call may=
 be
> > included in AD reviews during the IESG review.  Document editors and WG=
 chairs
> > should treat these comments just like any other last call comments.
> >
> > Two minor issues: On page 4, "This offers an additional degree of priva=
cy
> > protection." should be reworded. I don't think it makes sense in contex=
t, where
> > authenticity was discussed.
>
>
> In the course of the edit, explanation about two distinct privacy
> benefits was collated in one sentence and has become very difficult to
> parse.
>
> What it is trying to express as privacy benefits are the following.
>
> 1) The authorization request content is sent to the AS in the
> backchannel so it will not be exposed through the browser to the eyes
> of an active or passive outsider observing what is going on in the
> browser.  In the RFC6749 framework case, the authorization request
> goes through the browser redirect and it could leak to the adversary
> via WPAD/PAC Attack, referrer, browser history, etc. Also, if the
> browser was infected by an adversary controlled malware, the content
> can be sniffed by the adversary. In the case of JAR, it does not
> happen. This is one privacy benefit it is trying to explain.
>
> 2) The location that the authorization request is getting pushed to
> does not have to be the AS. A trusted third party that examines the
> content for the conformance to the collection minimization principle
> may act as the party that accepts the authorization request and issues
> the request_uri. AS can then just evaluate the domain part of
> request_uri to evaluate that the authorization request is conformant
> to this principle. This is another privacy benefit from the point of
> view of the individual user.

I'm fine with any fix to the sentence that makes sense. Don't think we
need to insert the above but I very much appreciate the explanation.

>
>
> > It took me a while to understand what the by reference method is: maybe=
 the
> > intro should say via URL instead of by reference.
>
>
> request_uri can be URL or a handle such as URN. That is why the "by
> reference" word is being used, per the suggestion of the WG.

I'm fine with that, just noting my confusion.

>
> >
> >
> > And now for the thorny issues with this draft. Signatures and encryptio=
n are
> > different. And encrypting a signed blob doesn't mean the signer encrypt=
ed it.
> > Then there are a plethora of methods specified in the draft  to authent=
icate
> > the blob, which will give different results in maliciously constructed
> > examples. The security considerations section should discuss what the e=
ncrypted
> > vs signed choices give in the way of security, and it doesn't. This mak=
es me
> > worry.
>
> We don=E2=80=99t expect the encryption to ensure authenticity, that=E2=80=
=99s what the
> signatures are used for.

This needs to be very clearly spelled out in the text. Lots of people
will not understand this. The wording of section 10.2 is at best
ambivalent, with multiple alternatives presented as acceptable.

>
<chop>
>
> I didn't quite get what is meant by "plethora of methods specified in
> the draft to authenticate the blob ... "
> There is a bit of text about authenticating the source (=3Dclient) but
> not much on the blob itself.
> The discussion around the signature and/or encryption is covered in
> RFC7519 (JWT), the format that the request object assumes.
> This is required reading when implementing this spec, so WG thought it
> is not worth repeating here.
> Attacks etc. on the signature and encryption are covered in RFC7515
> and RFC7516 respectively.

Well, the draft happens to include the following text:
   "The Authorization Server MUST validate the signature of the JSON Web
   Signature [RFC7515] signed Request Object.  The signature MUST be
   validated using the key for that "client_id" and the algorithm
   specified in the "alg" Header Parameter."

Shouldn't the key be associated with a single algorithm? How do we
ensure that the common attack of telling the server to use hmac to
verify the signature doesn't work here?

>
> >
> > Looking at the cited reference for attacks, I see the fix is to include
> > information about which IPD was used by the RP. But the draft before us=
 doesn't
> > mandate that. It's not clear than how the cited attack is prevented by =
the
> > draft. Saying that the communication through the user-agent is subject =
to
>
> The mention of mix-up attack was introduced after the Last call by one
> of the comment. It just added it in the sentence with a reference. I
> am ok to remove it.

That works for me.

>
> Having said that, the heart of mix-up attack is that the combination
> of the client believes that it is communicating with the
> attacker-controlled AS (AAS) while it in-fact is talking to Honest AS
> (HAS), AND HAS unable to find out that the client is thinking that it
> is talking to AAS not him.
>
> OAuth JAR seems to mitigate it in two ways:
>
> a) Use request_uri which is hosted by the AS. Then, if the client is
> thinking that it is talking to the AAS, then it will push it to AAS
> and when the user is redirected to HAS, HAS will find out that the
> request_uri is not created by herself and return an error, making the
> mix-up attack fail.
>
> b) Include `aud` in the request. Then, when the HAS will find that the
> request was minted to AAS and not her. So, it will result in an error,
> making the mix-up attack fail.

If the draft mandates doing this it addresses the attack and the
sentence can stay.

>
> So, I added mix-up attack to the sentence thinking the commenter's
> request to add it is fine, but I am fine with removing it.
>
> > manipulation, and this prevents it, ignores that the attacker in that p=
osition
> > sees a lot more. The user-agent as resource owner modifying the request=
ed
> > resources is a very funny sort of attack: can't they do what they want =
with the
> > resources since they control the access?
>
> If the client is in the browser, yes.
> But in the mainstream case, the client is not in the browser but the
> web-server that the browser is communicating with and the resource
> access happens without being mediated by the browser.

My concern on this point is resolved.

>
> >
> >
> > Key management is ignored. This is a very important issue, especially
>
> A lot of ground is covered by RFC 7515, 7516, 7517, 7518, 7519, 7591,
> and 8414 so this document is not specifically restating them.
>
> >
> > considering the potential problems with the reuse of JWT. I'd like to s=
ee a
>
> Are you talking about the reuse of the request object by an adversary
> trying to act as an honest client?
> Even if it happens, the malicious client does not have the proper
> client credential so it cannot redeem the code it obtained with the
> token. It is no different than RFC6749 code grant. Protocols that
> extend it, such as OpenID Connect, have introduced nonce to prevent
> the reuse and used JAR (it is called request object there) to further
> protect tampering and achieve client authentication even in the front
> channel.
>
> > recommendation that keys be separated by intended uses, rather than lim=
iting
> > particular fields in an ad-hoc manner.
>
> Could you kindly elaborate on the "ad-hoc manner" part so that I can
> understand it more fully?

10.8, Cross-JWT Confusion discusses avoiding signing certain fields,
rather than suggesting good key usage as a solution.

>
> >
> >
> > Then we have section 11. What section 11 introduces is an entire new dr=
amatis
> > personae, the Trust Framework Provider, with no prior discussion of wha=
t it is
> > or a reference to where it is defined and a good number of statements a=
bout how
> > it works that aren't really  clear what they mean from the document to =
me.
>
> Trust Framework Provider first appears in 5.2.1.
> At the time of writing the related text, it was a pretty well-known
> concept. In the United State, it was part of its National Strategy
> (NSTIC) and internationally, it was even taken up at WEF Davos
> meeting. It is quite surprising that such a mainstream concept faded
> into obscurity so quickly. The reason for introducing it was to a)
> justify request_uri as some WG members wanted it to be removed, b)
> justify that requst_uri to be served from a different domain. Now that
> people appreciate it, e.g., it can be seen from PAR, the justification
> for a) probably is no longer required. A full explanation for b) would
> probably be a much longer text but I doubt if it belongs to this
> document. I am fine with removing the reference to Trust framework
> etc. as long as the capability to push the authorization request to a
> place other than the client or the authorization server is not
> removed.

Let's remove the text then, but keep the capability.


>
> >
> > My biggest concern is that these issues are signs that the problem this=
 draft
> > is trying to solve and the mechanisms to solve it haven't been analyzed=
 as
> > thoroughly as they should have been. Without that sort of thorough anal=
ysis
> > it's not certain that the mechanisms actually solve the problem and it'=
s not
> > clear what the recommendations to implementers have to be to preserve t=
hose
> > properties.
>
> OAuth JAR, as the name "The OAuth 2.0 Authorization Framework: JWT
> Secured Authorization Request (JAR)" suggests, is a framework and not
> a house itself. One such example is FAPI [1] which was formally
> verified [2].

"It's possible to use this draft security" I don't think should be
enough anymore. Rather it should be impossible to use insecurely.

>
> [1] https://bitbucket.org/openid/fapi/src/master/Financial_API_WD_002.md
> [2] https://arxiv.org/abs/1901.11520
>
> >
> > Obviously this draft has had a long and tortured history with multiple =
reviews,
> >  and what I'm suggesting needs to happen is a lot of work. But it's ess=
ential
> > in any security protocol to do this analysis and be clear about what is=
, and
> > what is not, protected by the protocol.
>
> OAuth JAR is nothing but just another binding to OAuth 2.0. Where RFC6749
> binds it to form encoding, it provides two additional bindings:
>     1) binding to JWT, and
>     2) binding to the pushed authorization request that is referenced by =
a URI.
> It is this simple. As such, it would also inherit some of the
> shortcomings in RFC6749. However, it is not this document to address
> them. It should be done by other documents so that the result can be
> encoded using the mechanisms provided in this document.

This is not a simple matter. JWT has a long and twisted history with
some pervasive errors in common libraries, and is a fairly large
standard. OAuth 2.0 is also large. Ensuring that the mapping has the
right properties is going to be a mess. If the encoding does not
respect the semantics we have a serious security issue. If
implementors assume the encoding provides properties it does not, we
again have a security issue.

>
> It is quite surprising that this fact is not getting appreciated and
> is taking such a long time to complete.
> Maybe I should delete all the explanation text and leave it with just
> the core text. Explanation and justification text for defining
> additional bindings probably are just distractions now as it is now
> appreciated and used all over the world unlike when the project was
> started.

>
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Watson Ladd
> >
>
> Thanks again for your detailed comments.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> --
> Nat Sakimura
> NAT.Consulting LLC



--
Astra mortemque praestare gradatim


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From nobody Wed Dec 16 04:21:59 2020
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From: =?UTF-8?B?TWFsacWhYQ==?= =?UTF-8?B?IFZ1xI1pbmnEhw==?= <malisa.vucinic@inria.fr>
To: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" <acm@research.att.com>, "secdir@ietf.org" <secdir@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [bmwg] Secdir telechat review of draft-ietf-bmwg-b2b-frame-03
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Subject: Re: [secdir] [bmwg] Secdir telechat review of draft-ietf-bmwg-b2b-frame-03
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Al,

I don't have a strong opinion on using the term "honesty" here. How about t=
his phrasing, just before the last paragraph in Security Considerations:

The DUT developers are commonly independent from the personnel and institut=
ions conducting the benchmarking.
The DUT developers might have incentives to alter the performance of the DU=
T if the test conditions are detected.
Procedures described in this document are not designed to detect such activ=
ity.
Additional testing, outside of the scope of this document, is needed and ha=
s been successfully used in the past to discover such malpractices.

Mali=C5=A1a

=EF=BB=BFOn 15/12/2020 20:22, "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" <acm@research.att.com> wrot=
e:

    Hi Mali=C5=A1a,
    please see below...
   =20
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Mali=C5=A1a Vu=C4=8Dini=C4=87 [mailto:malisa.vucinic@inria.fr]
    > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2020 9:21 AM
    > To: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com>; secdir@ietf.org
    > Cc: last-call@ietf.org; bmwg@ietf.org; draft-ietf-bmwg-b2b-
    > frame.all@ietf.org
    > Subject: Re: [bmwg] Secdir telechat review of draft-ietf-bmwg-b2b-fra=
me-03
    >=20
    > Hi Al,
    >=20
    > Thanks, that is clear. I think that discussing the assumption of hone=
sty
    > among the parties involved in benchmarking  would be a useful additio=
n to
    > the Security Considerations section in the draft.
    [acm]=20
   =20
    I don't mind explaining the requirement using the term "honesty", but I=
 can only imagine raised eyebrows and subsequent DISCUSS/comments if we try =
to assert a need for/assumption of honesty anywhere in the memo.
   =20
    Do you have suggested wording?
   =20
    Do others have opinions whether or not this is needed?
   =20
    thanks,
    Al
   =20
    >=20
    > Mali=C5=A1a
    >=20
    > =EF=BB=BFOn 15/12/2020 14:45, "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" <acm@research.att.com=
> wrote:
    >=20
    >     Hi Mali=C5=A1a,
    >     thanks for your review, please see below for one reply to your
    > question (acm].
    >     Al
    >=20
    >     > -----Original Message-----
    >     > From: bmwg [mailto:bmwg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mali=C5=A1a
    > Vucinic via
    >     > Datatracker
    >     > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2020 6:30 AM
    >     > To: secdir@ietf.org
    >     > Cc: last-call@ietf.org; bmwg@ietf.org; draft-ietf-bmwg-b2b-
    >     > frame.all@ietf.org
    >     > Subject: [bmwg] Secdir telechat review of draft-ietf-bmwg-b2b-f=
rame-
    > 03
    >     >
    >     > Reviewer: Mali=C5=A1a Vu=C4=8Dini=C4=87
    >     > Review result: Ready
    >     >
    >     > I reviewed this document as part of the Security Directorate's
    > ongoing
    >     > effort
    >     > to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. These
    > comments
    >     > were
    >     > written primarily for the benefit of the Security Area Director=
s.
    > Document
    >     > authors, document editors, and WG chairs should treat these com=
ments
    > just
    >     > like
    >     > any other IETF Last Call comments.
    >     >
    >     > Thank you for this well-written document, it was a pleasure to =
read
    > and I
    >     > think
    >     > it is ready to proceed. Since the document updates RFC2544
    > benchmarking
    >     > procedure for estimating the buffer time of a Device Under Test
    > (DUT), it
    >     > does
    >     > not raise any security issues. Security Considerations section =
is
    > quite
    >     > clear
    >     > and it stresses that these tests are performed in a lab environ=
ment.
    >     >
    >     > I do have a question regarding the last paragraph of the Securi=
ty
    >     > Considerations on special capabilities of DUTs for benchmarking
    > purposes.
    >     > Currently, the sentence reads: "Special capabilities SHOULD NOT
    > exist in
    >     > the
    >     > DUT/SUT specifically for benchmarking purposes." Why is this a
    > SHOULD NOT
    >     > and
    >     > not a MUST NOT? Could you give an example when such special
    > capabilities
    >     > in a
    >     > DUT are appropriate?
    >     [acm]
    >     We can only make a strong recommendation in this area. As
    > testers/benchmarkers are often independent from the DUT developers an=
d
    > conduct testing external to the DUT, we assume honesty among other pa=
rties
    > but we cannot require it. If someone constructed a DUT that recognize=
d
    > test conditions and operated differently to perform better somehow, o=
ur
    > tests would measure the intended "better" performance. It takes a
    > special/additional test effort to prove that a DUT has "designed to t=
he
    > test" (consider Volkswagen and fuel efficiency testing [0]).
    >=20
    >     We simply do not have any authority in this matter, but we can le=
t all
    > parties know that gaming the test can be discovered and reported (alb=
eit
    > with more testing that we do not describe).
    >=20
    >     [0] https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.consumerreports.org/f=
uel-
    > economy-efficiency/volkswagen-used-special-software-to-exaggerate-fue=
l-
    > economy/__;!!BhdT!0KS_VCF5ZQfIGkVyPLoJXuAxdcoS3-
    > xJTE0LoKZPWuSiHjQZM1u0H9M36YXByCk$
    >=20
    >     >
    >     >
    >     >
    >     > _______________________________________________
    >     > bmwg mailing list
    >     > bmwg@ietf.org
    >     >
    > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bmw=
g__;!
    >     > !BhdT!1JFeLsENzMU-ew89jxmJKxfp4wj5Zo3AZ6V8iULU3hWAentH1dymqJmDO=
vw7$
    >=20
    >=20
   =20
   =20



From nobody Wed Dec 16 06:35:50 2020
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Reviewer: Samuel Weiler
Review result: Has Issues

Thank you for the well-written document!

I'm concerned about the user experience of this extension.

I imagine confusion will arise when the opaque :mailboxid takes precedence over
the human readable mailbox name.   I don't see any feedback mechanism to show
that the mail is going to a mailbox other than the one that is human readable -
feedback that could prompt updating of the script.  As a human trying debug
this, it may not be obvious where mail went - the script says "INBOX.foo" and
the mail simply isn't there.  Is there a way to make this more debuggable?  Or
is there useful advice to provide to the Sieve UI implementer, like "this is
for special cases and should probably be off by default"?

Minor: I'd like section 3 to point at what "require" means:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5228#section-2.10.5




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Subject: Re: [secdir] Secdir early review of draft-ietf-idr-bgp-optimal-route-reflection-21
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From: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" <acm@research.att.com>
To: =?utf-8?B?TWFsacWhYSBWdcSNaW5pxIc=?= <malisa.vucinic@inria.fr>, "secdir@ietf.org" <secdir@ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "last-call@ietf.org" <last-call@ietf.org>, "bmwg@ietf.org" <bmwg@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-bmwg-b2b-frame.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bmwg-b2b-frame.all@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [bmwg] Secdir telechat review of draft-ietf-bmwg-b2b-frame-03
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Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 17:44:04 +0000
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Subject: Re: [secdir] [bmwg] Secdir telechat review of draft-ietf-bmwg-b2b-frame-03
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Subject: Re: [secdir] [bmwg] Secdir telechat review of draft-ietf-bmwg-b2b-frame-03
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Sounds good, thanks!

Mali=C5=A1a

=EF=BB=BFOn 16/12/2020 18:44, "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" <acm@research.att.com> wrot=
e:

    Hi Mali=C5=A1a,
   =20
    Thanks for your proposed wording, it seems sufficiently neutral and wit=
h a few small tweaks, WFM.
   =20
    I see that Roman's COMMENT also supports this additional text.
   =20
    So, consider it part of the next version, and thanks for your help!
    Al
   =20
   =20
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Mali=C5=A1a Vu=C4=8Dini=C4=87 [mailto:malisa.vucinic@inria.fr]
    > Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 7:22 AM
    > To: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com>; secdir@ietf.org
    > Cc: last-call@ietf.org; bmwg@ietf.org; draft-ietf-bmwg-b2b-
    > frame.all@ietf.org
    > Subject: Re: [bmwg] Secdir telechat review of draft-ietf-bmwg-b2b-fra=
me-03
    >=20
    > Al,
    >=20
    > I don't have a strong opinion on using the term "honesty" here. How a=
bout
    > this phrasing, just before the last paragraph in Security Considerati=
ons:
    >=20
    > The DUT developers are commonly independent from the personnel and
    > institutions conducting the benchmarking.
    > The DUT developers might have incentives to alter the performance of =
the
    > DUT if the test conditions are detected.
    > Procedures described in this document are not designed to detect such
    > activity.
    > Additional testing, outside of the scope of this document, is needed =
and
    > has been successfully used in the past to discover such malpractices.
    >=20
    > Mali=C5=A1a
    >=20
    > =EF=BB=BFOn 15/12/2020 20:22, "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" <acm@research.att.com=
> wrote:
    >=20
    >     Hi Mali=C5=A1a,
    >     please see below...
    >=20
    >     > -----Original Message-----
    >     > From: Mali=C5=A1a Vu=C4=8Dini=C4=87 [mailto:malisa.vucinic@inria.fr]
    >     > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2020 9:21 AM
    >     > To: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com>; secdir@ietf.o=
rg
    >     > Cc: last-call@ietf.org; bmwg@ietf.org; draft-ietf-bmwg-b2b-
    >     > frame.all@ietf.org
    >     > Subject: Re: [bmwg] Secdir telechat review of draft-ietf-bmwg-b=
2b-
    > frame-03
    >     >
    >     > Hi Al,
    >     >
    >     > Thanks, that is clear. I think that discussing the assumption o=
f
    > honesty
    >     > among the parties involved in benchmarking  would be a useful
    > addition to
    >     > the Security Considerations section in the draft.
    >     [acm]
    >=20
    >     I don't mind explaining the requirement using the term "honesty",=
 but
    > I can only imagine raised eyebrows and subsequent DISCUSS/comments if=
 we
    > try to assert a need for/assumption of honesty anywhere in the memo.
    >=20
    >     Do you have suggested wording?
    >=20
    >     Do others have opinions whether or not this is needed?
    >=20
    >     thanks,
    >     Al
    >=20
    >     >
    >     > Mali=C5=A1a
    >     >
    >     > =EF=BB=BFOn 15/12/2020 14:45, "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" <acm@research.a=
tt.com>
    > wrote:
    >     >
    >     >     Hi Mali=C5=A1a,
    >     >     thanks for your review, please see below for one reply to y=
our
    >     > question (acm].
    >     >     Al
    >     >
    >     >     > -----Original Message-----
    >     >     > From: bmwg [mailto:bmwg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ma=
li=C5=A1a
    >     > Vucinic via
    >     >     > Datatracker
    >     >     > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2020 6:30 AM
    >     >     > To: secdir@ietf.org
    >     >     > Cc: last-call@ietf.org; bmwg@ietf.org; draft-ietf-bmwg-b2=
b-
    >     >     > frame.all@ietf.org
    >     >     > Subject: [bmwg] Secdir telechat review of draft-ietf-bmwg=
-b2b-
    > frame-
    >     > 03
    >     >     >
    >     >     > Reviewer: Mali=C5=A1a Vu=C4=8Dini=C4=87
    >     >     > Review result: Ready
    >     >     >
    >     >     > I reviewed this document as part of the Security Director=
ate's
    >     > ongoing
    >     >     > effort
    >     >     > to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.
    > These
    >     > comments
    >     >     > were
    >     >     > written primarily for the benefit of the Security Area
    > Directors.
    >     > Document
    >     >     > authors, document editors, and WG chairs should treat the=
se
    > comments
    >     > just
    >     >     > like
    >     >     > any other IETF Last Call comments.
    >     >     >
    >     >     > Thank you for this well-written document, it was a pleasu=
re to
    > read
    >     > and I
    >     >     > think
    >     >     > it is ready to proceed. Since the document updates RFC254=
4
    >     > benchmarking
    >     >     > procedure for estimating the buffer time of a Device Unde=
r
    > Test
    >     > (DUT), it
    >     >     > does
    >     >     > not raise any security issues. Security Considerations se=
ction
    > is
    >     > quite
    >     >     > clear
    >     >     > and it stresses that these tests are performed in a lab
    > environment.
    >     >     >
    >     >     > I do have a question regarding the last paragraph of the
    > Security
    >     >     > Considerations on special capabilities of DUTs for
    > benchmarking
    >     > purposes.
    >     >     > Currently, the sentence reads: "Special capabilities SHOU=
LD
    > NOT
    >     > exist in
    >     >     > the
    >     >     > DUT/SUT specifically for benchmarking purposes." Why is t=
his a
    >     > SHOULD NOT
    >     >     > and
    >     >     > not a MUST NOT? Could you give an example when such speci=
al
    >     > capabilities
    >     >     > in a
    >     >     > DUT are appropriate?
    >     >     [acm]
    >     >     We can only make a strong recommendation in this area. As
    >     > testers/benchmarkers are often independent from the DUT develop=
ers
    > and
    >     > conduct testing external to the DUT, we assume honesty among ot=
her
    > parties
    >     > but we cannot require it. If someone constructed a DUT that
    > recognized
    >     > test conditions and operated differently to perform better some=
how,
    > our
    >     > tests would measure the intended "better" performance. It takes=
 a
    >     > special/additional test effort to prove that a DUT has "designe=
d to
    > the
    >     > test" (consider Volkswagen and fuel efficiency testing [0]).
    >     >
    >     >     We simply do not have any authority in this matter, but we =
can
    > let all
    >     > parties know that gaming the test can be discovered and reporte=
d
    > (albeit
    >     > with more testing that we do not describe).
    >     >
    >     >     [0]
    > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.consumerreports.org/fuel-
    >     > economy-efficiency/volkswagen-used-special-software-to-exaggera=
te-
    > fuel-
    >     > economy/__;!!BhdT!0KS_VCF5ZQfIGkVyPLoJXuAxdcoS3-
    >     > xJTE0LoKZPWuSiHjQZM1u0H9M36YXByCk$
    >     >
    >     >     >
    >     >     >
    >     >     >
    >     >     > _______________________________________________
    >     >     > bmwg mailing list
    >     >     > bmwg@ietf.org
    >     >     >
    >     >
    > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bmw=
g__;!
    >     >     > !BhdT!1JFeLsENzMU-
    > ew89jxmJKxfp4wj5Zo3AZ6V8iULU3hWAentH1dymqJmDOvw7$
    >     >
    >     >
    >=20
    >=20
    >=20
   =20
   =20



From nobody Thu Dec 17 03:25:16 2020
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From: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>
To: Shawn Emery <shawn.emery@gmail.com>, secdir <secdir@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data.all@ietf.org>, "last-call@ietf.org" <last-call@ietf.org>, Shawn Emery <semery@uccs.edu>
Thread-Topic: Review of draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-11
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Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 11:25:04 +0000
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--_000_BYAPR11MB2584875CF7E3A20FEFD0240ADAC40BYAPR11MB2584namp_--


From nobody Thu Dec 17 14:21:59 2020
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Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 14:21:54 -0800
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/secdir/K_dj-zoB7xP3LJQvskeiN5gNCaM>
Subject: [secdir] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-rtgwg-bgp-pic-12
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Reviewer: Tero Kivinen
Review result: Ready

This document describes internal algorithm and structure change for the BGP.
The security considerations sections says as follows:

   The behavior described in this document is internal functionality
   to a router that result in significant improvement to convergence
   time as well as reduction in CPU and memory used by FIB while not
   showing change in basic routing and forwarding functionality. As
   such no additional security risk is introduced by using the
   mechanisms proposed in this document.

I agree on that statement, but of course this proposed method is bit more
complicated than old method, thus there might  be more implementation bugs or
corner cases than before, but perhaps that is obvious and does not need to be
mentioned.



From nobody Thu Dec 17 14:38:18 2020
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Review instructions and related resources are at:
http://tools.ietf.org/area/sec/trac/wiki/SecDirReview

For telechat 2020-12-17

Reviewer               LC end     Draft
Phillip Hallam-Baker   2020-12-03 draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests-07

For telechat 2021-01-07

Reviewer               LC end     Draft
Sandra Murphy          2020-10-15 draft-ietf-tls-external-psk-importer-06
Tirumaleswar Reddy.K   2020-11-16 draft-ietf-quic-transport-33
Yaron Sheffer         R2020-10-27 draft-ietf-detnet-security-13

Last calls:

Reviewer               LC end     Draft
Daniel Franke          2020-09-18 draft-ietf-jmap-mdn-16
Daniel Franke          2020-03-09 draft-ietf-regext-dnrd-objects-mapping-11
Daniel Gillmor         2020-09-30 draft-ietf-ccamp-layer0-types-08
Phillip Hallam-Baker   2020-09-30 draft-ietf-lwig-tcp-constrained-node-networks-13
Phillip Hallam-Baker   2020-12-03 draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests-07
Steve Hanna            2020-09-30 draft-ietf-ccamp-wson-yang-27
Dan Harkins            None       draft-ietf-rtgwg-policy-model-03
Leif Johansson         None       draft-ietf-netconf-crypto-types-18
Leif Johansson         2020-10-02 draft-ietf-lpwan-schc-over-lorawan-13
Charlie Kaufman        2021-01-04 draft-gont-numeric-ids-sec-considerations-06
Charlie Kaufman       R2020-12-29 draft-ietf-cose-x509-08
Scott Kelly            2020-12-24 draft-ietf-pce-association-policy-15
Watson Ladd            None       draft-ietf-rift-applicability-03
Russ Mundy             2020-07-20 draft-ietf-ace-dtls-authorize-14
Sandra Murphy          2020-10-15 draft-ietf-tls-external-psk-importer-06
Tirumaleswar Reddy.K   2020-11-16 draft-ietf-quic-transport-33
Rich Salz             R2020-08-14 draft-ietf-suit-architecture-14
Yaron Sheffer         R2020-10-27 draft-ietf-detnet-security-13
Klaas Wierenga         2020-12-02 draft-ietf-core-echo-request-tag-11
Klaas Wierenga         2020-05-26 draft-ietf-kitten-krb-spake-preauth-09
Christopher Wood      R2021-01-18 draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-24
Christopher Wood       2020-09-23 draft-ietf-6man-rfc4941bis-12
Paul Wouters           2020-09-08 draft-ietf-i2nsf-capability-data-model-13
Liang Xia              2020-11-30 draft-ietf-spring-sr-yang-29

Early review requests:

Reviewer               Due        Draft
Nancy Cam-Winget       2020-12-07 draft-ietf-idr-ext-opt-param-09
Steve Hanna            2020-12-23 draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-integrity-01
Dacheng Zhang          2020-12-07 draft-ietf-idr-eag-distribution-13

Next in the reviewer rotation:

  Chris Lonvick
  Aanchal Malhotra
  David Mandelberg
  Catherine Meadows
  Alexey Melnikov
  Daniel Migault
  Adam Montville
  Kathleen Moriarty
  Russ Mundy
  Sandra Murphy




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Subject: [secdir] Secdir early review of draft-ietf-idr-ext-opt-param-09
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Reviewer: Nancy Cam-Winget
Review result: Ready

I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's
ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the
IESG.  These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the
security area directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should treat
these comments just like any other last call comments.

This document describes the allowance for the extended optional parameters in
BGP to be greater than 255.  As written, the document is straightforward and on
point. I only have an editorial nit and a suggestion.

NIT:
Section 2: 1st sentence of the 7th paragraph "that in the..." Needs to be fixed.
Should it be: "that is in the..."?

Suggestion:
- As new drafts need to include security and privacy considerations, I think it
would be good to just add in the security section (5) that it doesn't change
both underlying security or privacy issues as noted in RFC5272.



From nobody Thu Dec 17 22:36:06 2020
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From: Shawn Emery <shawn.emery@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 23:35:39 -0700
Message-ID: <CAChzXmaf2_CXgA-62uudfzMk8xz60+2Vso7b+xNfXAft+o2xRQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>
Cc: secdir <secdir@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data.all@ietf.org>,  "last-call@ietf.org" <last-call@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [secdir] Review of draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-11
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--00000000000010ce4805b6b752c2
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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Hi Frank,

Thanks for your response.  I've read
draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment-02 and still have concerns that
mitigating against eavesdropping, DoS/DDoS, and time synchronization
attacks, have not been sufficiently covered specifically regarding the data
tuple vector.

Regards,

Shawn.
--

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 4:25 AM Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <
fbrockne@cisco.com> wrote:

>
>
> *Hi Shawn,*
>
>
>
> *Thanks a lot for your review. Please see inline (..FB)*
>
>
>
> *From:* Shawn Emery <shawn.emery@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Sonntag, 6. Dezember 2020 23:31
> *To:* secdir <secdir@ietf.org>
> *Cc:* draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data.all@ietf.org; last-call@ietf.org; Shawn
> Emery <semery@uccs.edu>
> *Subject:* Review of draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-11
>
>
>
> Reviewer: Shawn M. Emery
> Review result: Ready with nits
>
> I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's
> ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.
> These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security
> area directors. Document editors and WG chairs should treat these
> comments just like any other last call comments.
>
> This standards track draft specifies data fields in the In-situ
> Operations, Administration,
>
> and Maintenance (IOAM) scheme.  The data fields contain operational and
> telemetry
>
> information in a network domain.  "In-situ" refers to the fact that the
> associated data is
>
> actually encapsulated in the data packet itself rather than through a
> separate OAM
>
> packet.
>
>
> The security considerations section does exist and describes multiple
> vulnerabilities
>
> to the IOAM.  Attackers can create both false-positives and
> false-negatives in regards
>
> to failures or the true state of the domain.  This can eventually lead to
> DoS attacks.
>
> Another form of DoS is by crafting an IOAM header to packets thereby
> increasing the
>
> resources required or exceeding the packet beyond the network's MTU size.
>
>
>
> Verifying the path of the data packets is deferred to
> draft-ietf-sfc-proof-of-transit's security
>
> consideration section which has good coverage and ways to mitigate the
> various attacks
>
> on the protocol.  Eavesdropping is also possible, which can reveal
> operational and telemetry
>
> data of the network domain.
>
>
>
> IOAM also utilizes timestamps, in which an attack on the time
> synchronization protocol can
>
> affect the timestamp fields in IOAM.  In addition the management
> functionality of IOAM could
>
> also be targeted, but suggests authentication and integrity checks to
> protect against said attacks.
>
>
>
> Various measures against these attacks are not prescribed based on the
> fact that this specification
>
> is about the data fields of IOAM.  However, I think it would be beneficia=
l
> to provide some guidance
>
> (at least for future specifications) for each of these attacks
> that utilize these data fields else why
>
> articulate the security issues at all?
>
> *..FB: =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6some guidance for each of the attacks=E2=80=A6=
=E2=80=9D very much hints at
> deployment considerations for IOAM. For that, we have an =E2=80=9CIOAM De=
ployment=E2=80=9D
> draft:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment-02
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment-02> i=
n
> flight. The current thought model is cover all aspects of IOAM deployment=
,
> including guidance on mitigating security concerns, in this deployment
> draft. Would that be a workable approach for you?*
>
>
>
> *Thanks, Frank*
>
>
> General comments:
>
> None.
>
>
> Editorial comments:
>
>
>
> None.
>
>
>
> Shawn.
> --
>

--00000000000010ce4805b6b752c2
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Frank,<div><br></div><div>Thanks for your response.=C2=
=A0 I&#39;ve read draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment-02=C2=A0and still =
have concerns that mitigating against=C2=A0eavesdropping, DoS/DDoS, and tim=
e synchronization attacks, have not been sufficiently covered specifically =
regarding the data tuple vector.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Shawn.</div><div>--</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 4:25 AM F=
rank Brockners (fbrockne) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com">fbrockn=
e@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-4124594298460205235WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>Hi Shawn,<u></u><u></u></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>Thanks a lot for your review. Please see inlin=
e (..FB)<u></u><u></u></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-l=
eft:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Shawn Emery &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shawn=
.emery@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">shawn.emery@gmail.com</a>&gt; <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sonntag, 6. Dezember 2020 23:31<br>
<b>To:</b> secdir &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:secdir@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
secdir@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data.all@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data.all@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:l=
ast-call@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">last-call@ietf.org</a>; Shawn Emery &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:semery@uccs.edu" target=3D"_blank">semery@uccs.edu</a>&=
gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Review of draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-11<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Reviewer: Shawn M. Emery<br>
Review result: Ready with nits<br>
<br>
I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate&#39;s<br>
ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.<br=
>
These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security<br>
area directors. Document editors and WG chairs should treat these<br>
comments just like any other last call comments.<br>
<br>
This standards track draft specifies data fields in the In-situ Operations,=
 Administration,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">and Maintenance (IOAM) scheme.=C2=A0 The data fields=
 contain operational and telemetry<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">information in a network domain.=C2=A0 &quot;In-situ=
&quot; refers=C2=A0to the fact that the associated data is<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">actually encapsulated in the data packet itself rath=
er than through a separate OAM<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">packet.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
The security considerations section does exist and describes multiple vulne=
rabilities<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">to the IOAM.=C2=A0 Attackers can create both false-p=
ositives and false-negatives in regards<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">to failures or the true state of the domain.=C2=A0 T=
his can eventually lead to DoS attacks.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Another form of DoS is by crafting an IOAM header to=
 packets thereby increasing the<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">resources required or exceeding the packet beyond th=
e network&#39;s MTU size.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Verifying the path of the data packets is deferred t=
o draft-ietf-sfc-proof-of-transit&#39;s security<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">consideration section which has good coverage and wa=
ys to mitigate the various attacks<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">on the protocol.=C2=A0 Eavesdropping is also possibl=
e, which can reveal operational and telemetry<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">data of the network domain.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">IOAM also utilizes timestamps, in which an attack on=
 the time synchronization protocol can<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">affect the timestamp fields in IOAM.=C2=A0 In additi=
on the management functionality of IOAM could<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">also be targeted, but suggests authentication and in=
tegrity checks to protect against said attacks.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Various measures against these attacks are not presc=
ribed based on the fact that this specification<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">is about the data fields of IOAM.=C2=A0 However, I t=
hink it would be beneficial to provide some guidance<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(at least for future specifications) for each of the=
se attacks that=C2=A0utilize=C2=A0these data fields else=C2=A0why<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">articulate the security issues at all?<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>..FB: =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6some guidance for each=
 of the attacks=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D very much hints at deployment considerati=
ons for IOAM. For that, we have an =E2=80=9CIOAM Deployment=E2=80=9D draft:
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployme=
nt-02" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-opsawg=
-ioam-deployment-02</a> in flight. The current thought model is cover all a=
spects of IOAM deployment, including guidance on mitigating
 security concerns, in this deployment draft. Would that be a workable appr=
oach for you?<u></u><u></u></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>Thanks, Frank<u></u><u></u></i></b></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<span style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif">General comments:<br>
<br>
None.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><br>
Editorial comments:<br>
<br>
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-seri=
f;color:black">None.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u><u></u></span=
></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<=
u></u></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Shawn.<=
br>
--</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>

--00000000000010ce4805b6b752c2--


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From: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>
To: Shawn Emery <shawn.emery@gmail.com>
CC: secdir <secdir@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data.all@ietf.org>, "last-call@ietf.org" <last-call@ietf.org>
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--_000_BYAPR11MB258450012E8566A3342E73E2DAC30BYAPR11MB2584namp_--


From nobody Fri Dec 18 05:08:48 2020
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From: Yaron Sheffer via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
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Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 05:08:38 -0800
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/secdir/xnBhl1GitXY3OKZnsmjAcB-jxoI>
Subject: [secdir] Secdir telechat review of draft-ietf-detnet-security-13
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Reviewer: Yaron Sheffer
Review result: Has Issues

The author team informed me, after they submitted -13, that they are still
working to address my previous review. I will be happy to review the document
again when they are done.



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From: Shawn Emery <shawn.emery@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 23:10:35 -0700
Message-ID: <CAChzXmZdn7XQaPGALu2=3OFdf0zzwO2Hf+4ePk2xxF5kR95RNw@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>
Cc: secdir <secdir@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data.all@ietf.org>,  "last-call@ietf.org" <last-call@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [secdir] Review of draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-11
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--0000000000004d5a3b05b6cb16f0
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Hi Frank,

This sounds good to me.  Just let me know when the revision is ready for
review and please update draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data with an informative
reference to the BCP draft.

Thanks,

Shawn.
--

On Fri, Dec 18, 2020 at 1:33 AM Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <
fbrockne@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Shawn,
>
>
>
> Thanks for reviewing draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment-02 =E2=80=93 =
which is
> still evolving. I agree that it does not cover mitigation considerations
> for all the potential threats/attacks. I=E2=80=99ve just created an issue=
s so that
> we=E2=80=99ll tackle it in the next rev of the doc:
> https://github.com/inband-oam/ietf/issues/204
>
>
>
> Thanks again, Frank
>
>
>
> *From:* Shawn Emery <shawn.emery@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Freitag, 18. Dezember 2020 07:36
> *To:* Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* secdir <secdir@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data.all@ietf.org;
> last-call@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: Review of draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-11
>
>
>
> Hi Frank,
>
>
>
> Thanks for your response.  I've read
> draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment-02 and still have concerns that
> mitigating against eavesdropping, DoS/DDoS, and time synchronization
> attacks, have not been sufficiently covered specifically regarding the da=
ta
> tuple vector.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Shawn.
>
> --
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 4:25 AM Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <
> fbrockne@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> *Hi Shawn,*
>
>
>
> *Thanks a lot for your review. Please see inline (..FB)*
>
>
>
> *From:* Shawn Emery <shawn.emery@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Sonntag, 6. Dezember 2020 23:31
> *To:* secdir <secdir@ietf.org>
> *Cc:* draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data.all@ietf.org; last-call@ietf.org; Shawn
> Emery <semery@uccs.edu>
> *Subject:* Review of draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-11
>
>
>
> Reviewer: Shawn M. Emery
> Review result: Ready with nits
>
> I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's
> ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.
> These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security
> area directors. Document editors and WG chairs should treat these
> comments just like any other last call comments.
>
> This standards track draft specifies data fields in the In-situ
> Operations, Administration,
>
> and Maintenance (IOAM) scheme.  The data fields contain operational and
> telemetry
>
> information in a network domain.  "In-situ" refers to the fact that the
> associated data is
>
> actually encapsulated in the data packet itself rather than through a
> separate OAM
>
> packet.
>
>
> The security considerations section does exist and describes multiple
> vulnerabilities
>
> to the IOAM.  Attackers can create both false-positives and
> false-negatives in regards
>
> to failures or the true state of the domain.  This can eventually lead to
> DoS attacks.
>
> Another form of DoS is by crafting an IOAM header to packets thereby
> increasing the
>
> resources required or exceeding the packet beyond the network's MTU size.
>
>
>
> Verifying the path of the data packets is deferred to
> draft-ietf-sfc-proof-of-transit's security
>
> consideration section which has good coverage and ways to mitigate the
> various attacks
>
> on the protocol.  Eavesdropping is also possible, which can reveal
> operational and telemetry
>
> data of the network domain.
>
>
>
> IOAM also utilizes timestamps, in which an attack on the time
> synchronization protocol can
>
> affect the timestamp fields in IOAM.  In addition the management
> functionality of IOAM could
>
> also be targeted, but suggests authentication and integrity checks to
> protect against said attacks.
>
>
>
> Various measures against these attacks are not prescribed based on the
> fact that this specification
>
> is about the data fields of IOAM.  However, I think it would be beneficia=
l
> to provide some guidance
>
> (at least for future specifications) for each of these attacks
> that utilize these data fields else why
>
> articulate the security issues at all?
>
> *..FB: =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6some guidance for each of the attacks=E2=80=A6=
=E2=80=9D very much hints at
> deployment considerations for IOAM. For that, we have an =E2=80=9CIOAM De=
ployment=E2=80=9D
> draft:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment-02
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment-02> i=
n
> flight. The current thought model is cover all aspects of IOAM deployment=
,
> including guidance on mitigating security concerns, in this deployment
> draft. Would that be a workable approach for you?*
>
>
>
> *Thanks, Frank*
>
>
> General comments:
>
> None.
>
>
> Editorial comments:
>
>
>
> None.
>
>
>
> Shawn.
> --
>
>

--0000000000004d5a3b05b6cb16f0
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Frank,<div><br></div><div>This sounds good to me.=C2=A0=
 Just let me know when the revision is ready for review and please update d=
raft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data with an informative reference to the BCP draft.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><br></div><div>Shawn.</div><div>--=
</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_=
attr">On Fri, Dec 18, 2020 at 1:33 AM Frank Brockners (fbrockne) &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com">fbrockne@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-7466960726163482600WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Shawn,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for reviewing draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-dep=
loyment-02 =E2=80=93 which is still evolving. I agree that it does not cove=
r mitigation considerations for all the potential threats/attacks. I=E2=80=
=99ve just created an issues so that we=E2=80=99ll tackle it
 in the next rev of the doc: <a href=3D"https://github.com/inband-oam/ietf/=
issues/204" target=3D"_blank">
https://github.com/inband-oam/ietf/issues/204</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks again, Frank<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-l=
eft:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Shawn Emery &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shawn=
.emery@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">shawn.emery@gmail.com</a>&gt; <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Freitag, 18. Dezember 2020 07:36<br>
<b>To:</b> Frank Brockners (fbrockne) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fbrockne@cisco.=
com" target=3D"_blank">fbrockne@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> secdir &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:secdir@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
secdir@ietf.org</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data.all@ie=
tf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data.all@ietf.org</a>; <a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:last-call@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">last-call@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Review of draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-11<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Frank,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for your response.=C2=A0 I&#39;ve read draft-=
brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment-02=C2=A0and still have concerns that mitig=
ating against=C2=A0eavesdropping, DoS/DDoS, and time synchronization attack=
s, have not been sufficiently covered specifically regarding
 the data tuple vector.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Shawn.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 4:25 AM Frank Brockners (fbr=
ockne) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">fbrockne=
@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>Hi Shawn,</i></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>=C2=A0</i></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>Thanks a lot for your review. Please see inlin=
e (..FB)</i></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-l=
eft:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Shawn Emery &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shawn=
.emery@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">shawn.emery@gmail.com</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sonntag, 6. Dezember 2020 23:31<br>
<b>To:</b> secdir &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:secdir@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
secdir@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data.all@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">
draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data.all@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:last-call@iet=
f.org" target=3D"_blank">
last-call@ietf.org</a>; Shawn Emery &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:semery@uccs.edu" =
target=3D"_blank">semery@uccs.edu</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Review of draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-11<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Reviewer: Shawn M. Emery<br>
Review result: Ready with nits<br>
<br>
I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate&#39;s<br>
ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.<br=
>
These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security<br>
area directors. Document editors and WG chairs should treat these<br>
comments just like any other last call comments.<br>
<br>
This standards track draft specifies data fields in the In-situ Operations,=
 Administration,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">and Maintenance (IOAM) scheme.=C2=A0 The data fields=
 contain operational and telemetry<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">information in a network domain.=C2=A0 &quot;In-situ=
&quot; refers=C2=A0to the fact that the associated data is<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">actually encapsulated in the data packet itself rath=
er than through a separate OAM<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">packet.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
The security considerations section does exist and describes multiple vulne=
rabilities<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">to the IOAM.=C2=A0 Attackers can create both false-p=
ositives and false-negatives in regards<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">to failures or the true state of the domain.=C2=A0 T=
his can eventually lead to DoS attacks.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Another form of DoS is by crafting an IOAM header to=
 packets thereby increasing the<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">resources required or exceeding the packet beyond th=
e network&#39;s MTU size.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Verifying the path of the data packets is deferred t=
o draft-ietf-sfc-proof-of-transit&#39;s security<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">consideration section which has good coverage and wa=
ys to mitigate the various attacks<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">on the protocol.=C2=A0 Eavesdropping is also possibl=
e, which can reveal operational and telemetry<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">data of the network domain.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">IOAM also utilizes timestamps, in which an attack on=
 the time synchronization protocol can<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">affect the timestamp fields in IOAM.=C2=A0 In additi=
on the management functionality of IOAM could<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">also be targeted, but suggests authentication and in=
tegrity checks to protect against said attacks.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Various measures against these attacks are not presc=
ribed based on the fact that this specification<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">is about the data fields of IOAM.=C2=A0 However, I t=
hink it would be beneficial to provide some guidance<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(at least for future specifications) for each of the=
se attacks that=C2=A0utilize=C2=A0these data fields else=C2=A0why<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">articulate the security=
 issues at all?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>..FB: =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6some guidance for each=
 of the attacks=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D very much hints at deployment considerati=
ons for IOAM. For that, we have an =E2=80=9CIOAM Deployment=E2=80=9D draft:
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployme=
nt-02" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment-02</a> i=
n flight. The current thought model is cover all aspects of IOAM deployment=
, including guidance on mitigating security concerns, in this deployment dr=
aft. Would that be a workable approach
 for you?</i></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>=C2=A0</i></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i>Thanks, Frank</i></b><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<span style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif">General comments:<br>
<br>
None.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><span style=3D"font-fam=
ily:Arial,sans-serif"><br>
Editorial comments:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-seri=
f;color:black">None.</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"break-before:page"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><=
u></u><u></u></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Shawn.<=
br>
--</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>

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From: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>
To: Shawn Emery <shawn.emery@gmail.com>
CC: secdir <secdir@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data.all@ietf.org>, "last-call@ietf.org" <last-call@ietf.org>
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From nobody Tue Dec 22 16:35:46 2020
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From: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 00:35:32 +0000
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Subject: Re: [secdir] [Last-Call] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-trust-anchors-13
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Hi Yoav,

I finally found some time  :sigh:   ;)

Please see below for responses to your comments.

Kent


> On Oct 2, 2020, at 7:20 AM, Kent Watsen <kent@watsen.net> wrote:
>=20
> [-last-call]
>=20
> Hi Yoav,
>=20
> Thank you for your review!  The takeaway for me is that some =
clarifications are needed, but otherwise the draft is fundamentally =
okay.  I will post an update, or perhaps just a GitHub commit, for your =
review, when I get a chance.  That said, my getting a chance will be =
delayed as I have a major engagement I need to focus on now.  This email =
is just to let you know that your review has not been forgotten.
>=20
> Thanks again,
> Kent
>=20
>=20
>> On Sep 25, 2020, at 7:02 PM, Yoav Nir via Datatracker =
<noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
>>=20
>> Reviewer: Yoav Nir
>> Review result: Has Issues
>>=20
>> I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's =
ongoing
>> effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  =
These
>> comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area =
directors.
>> Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like =
any other
>> last call comments.
>>=20
>> The document defines a YANG model for managing a trust anchor store. =
It allows
>> two kinds of trust anchors: certificates and raw public keys. =
However,
>> certificates are not just containers for public keys. Certificates =
include
>> attributes about key usage, path constraints and name constraints, =
all of which
>> constrain the ability to use the public key, and are relevant for =
trust
>> anchors. As far as I can tell the document does not include any =
attributes to
>> equivalently constrain the use of the raw public keys.  If the =
intention is
>> that raw public keys will not be constrained, the document should =
state this
>> explicitly.

Good catch.  You=E2=80=99re right that this document is not constraining =
the raw keys in the truststore.  Looking deeper, I see that the keys are =
unconstrained in both the =E2=80=9Ckeystore=E2=80=9D draft and the =
common =E2=80=9Ccrypto-types=E2=80=9D draft.  It seems like the right =
thing to do is to put a Security Consideration note into each draft.  =
Something like this?

   4.2.  Unconstrained Public Key Usage

      This module enables the configuration of public keys without
      constraints on their usage, e.g., what operations the key is =
allowed
      to be used for (encryption, verification, both).

      This module also enables the configuration of certificates, where
      each certificate may constrain the usage of the public key =
according
      to local policy.

Thoughts?


>> Perhaps this is clear to the people who worked on the document, but =
it's not
>> clear to me.  Are the trust anchors managed with this module supposed =
to be
>> used to establish trust for the NETCONF or RESTCONF connections?  =
Section 1.1
>> seems to suggest that it does, but then how is the bootstrap problem =
solved?
>> How do we establish the NETCONF connection the first time, and if we =
are able
>> to do that, why do we need more certificates?  If the answer is no, =
and the
>> certificates are to be used by other protocols, then perhaps some =
re-wording in
>> section 1.1 would help to show this. Currently, it says: "This =
document
>> presents ... YANG modules that are part of a collection of RFCs ... =
define
>> configuration modules for clients and servers of both the NETCONF and =
RESTCONF
>> protocols."

Answering your question: Yes, the trust anchors may be used to establish =
trust for NETCONF and RESTCONF connections.   The trust anchors may also =
be used by other models (e.g., other TLS-based protocols), created =
outside the effort described in Section 1.1.

For the bootstrap problem, Section 3 (Support for Built-in Trust =
Anchors) shows how a system may be shipped from a Manufacturer=E2=80=99s =
facility with preconfigured trust-anchors.  FWIW, the =E2=80=9Ckeystore=E2=
=80=9D draft separately defines how a system can be shipped from a =
Manufacturer=E2=80=99s facility with preconfigured private keys (e.g., =
using a TPM-protected key).

You suggest rewording the first paragraph in 1.1.  First, I have to =
assume you saw the second paragraph, that says that the modules have =
been defined to be used by other efforts, so my best guess is:

OLD:
This document presents one or more YANG modules [RFC7950] that are part =
of a collection of RFCs that work together to define configuration =
modules for clients and servers of both the NETCONF [RFC6241] and =
RESTCONF [RFC8040] protocols.

NEW:
This document presents one or more YANG modules [RFC7950] that are part =
of a collection of RFCs that work together to, ultimately, enable the =
configuration of the clients and servers of both the NETCONF [RFC6241] =
and RESTCONF [RFC8040] protocols.

Please let me know what you had in mind, if something different.


>> The security considerations section is OK, especially sub-section =
4.2.

Thanks.


>> Sub-section 4.1 has the following:
>>=20
>>  The YANG module defined in this document defines a mechanism called =
a
>>  "truststore" that, by its name, suggests that it will protect its
>>  contents from unauthorized modification.
>>=20
>> Perhaps this is my different perspective, but the name doesn't lead =
me to
>> expect that it protects its contents.  I think that the document =
should either
>> just suggest that some mechanism to prevent unauthorized modification =
should be
>> used, or to present such a mechanism in detail. The current text =
suggests is
>> partially specific by mentioning digital signatures and non-volatile =
storage,
>> but not explaining where the trust for the digital signature comes =
from and
>> what policies govern its us:
>>=20
>>  In order to satisfy the expectations of a "truststore", it is
>>  RECOMMENDED that implementations ensure that the truststore contents
>>  are signed when persisted to non-volatile memory, to prevent
>>  unauthorized modifications from being made undetected.
>>=20
>> It is too vague to be a specification, but still unnecessarily =
constrains the
>> solution space. I think the correct thing to do is to be explicitly =
vague and
>> to just suggest some mechanism for protecting the content.

Agreed.

OLD:
In order to satisfy the expectations of a "truststore", it is =
RECOMMENDED that implementations ensure that the truststore contents are =
signed when persisted to non-volatile memory, to prevent unauthorized =
modifications from being made undetected.

NEW:
In order to satisfy the expectations of a "truststore", it is =
RECOMMENDED that implementations ensure that the truststore contents are =
protected from unauthorized modifications when at rest.

What do you think?


Thanks,
Kent (as editor/author)





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From nobody Thu Dec 24 10:21:38 2020
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Reviewer: Steve Hanna
Review result: Has Issues

I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's ongoing
effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These
comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area directors.
 Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any other
last call comments.

This document describes adds integrity and optional encryption of sensitive
metadata directly to the Network Service Header (NSH) protocol defined in RFC
8300, thus reducing or eliminating several attack vectors against Service
Function Chaining (SFC). The document is well written and seems adequate for
the goals articulated here and elsewhere in the SFC document suite. However, I
have some issues, questions, and nits.

Note that I have not previously worked with SFC. In the last few days, I have
read the documents on this document so I am fairly confident that I understand
the relevant security aspects.

ISSUES and QUESTIONS:
Why include a MUST in section 9.2? Isn't that already covered earlier (in the
last sentence of section 7.5)?

The Timestamp field is supposed to handle replay attacks. However, this permits
unlimited replays within the Delta interval. Is that acceptable?

What is the ? operator in section 7.4 supposed to connote? Subtraction seems
like a better choice.

Is the Timestamp field only set by the first imposer in the SFP or should it be
updated whenever an imposer changes the MAC? This should be documented
somewhere, maybe in section 7.4.

The threat model described in draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-04 includes
compromised nodes. The security considerations section of this document should
describe how and to what extent compromised nodes are handled by the
protections provided by this document and what residual risks remain.

The Security Considerations section should explicitly acknowledge that
authentication is not provided by this method.

What does this statement mean?
        • If HMAC algorithm is used, IV length is set to zero.
Don't all the current algorithms use HMAC?

What is the expected behavior if these Context Headers are missing? The last
paragraph at the bottom of page 18 seems to be ambiguous on this topic, with
the first sentence saying that this "SHOULD be logged locally" while the last
sentence says that this "MUST cause that packet to be discarded". Probably this
is clear to the writer but not to this reader!

NITS:
At the top of page 6, "unecrypted" should be "unencrypted".

In the last line of page 18, "depend" should be "depending".

Just below Figure 9 on page 20, a comma is needed after "doing so".

In the second paragraph of section 7.5, "successfuly" should be spelled
"successfully".

At the end of the first paragraph of section 9, change the sentence from:
        • Also, that section indicates that metadata considerations that
        operators can take into account when using NSH are discussed in
        [RFC8165].
to
        • Also, that section indicates that [RFC8165] discusses metadata
        considerations that operators can take into account when using NSH.

The last sentence of the third paragraph of section 9 recommends that "the next
key identifier" be distributed long before the key is changed. This should say
"the next key identifier and associated keying material".

In the second paragraph of section 9.1, "domain be able" should be "domain
should be able".




From nobody Thu Dec 24 11:52:03 2020
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To: Steve Hanna <steve@hannas.com>, secdir@ietf.org
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From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [secdir] Secdir early review of draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-integrity-01
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Thank you Steve.  I expect the authors will get back to you after the 
holidays (although they have impressed me with the rapidity of their 
responses in the past.)

Yours,
Joel

On 12/24/2020 1:21 PM, Steve Hanna via Datatracker wrote:
> Reviewer: Steve Hanna
> Review result: Has Issues
> 
> I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's ongoing
> effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These
> comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area directors.
>   Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any other
> last call comments.
> 
> This document describes adds integrity and optional encryption of sensitive
> metadata directly to the Network Service Header (NSH) protocol defined in RFC
> 8300, thus reducing or eliminating several attack vectors against Service
> Function Chaining (SFC). The document is well written and seems adequate for
> the goals articulated here and elsewhere in the SFC document suite. However, I
> have some issues, questions, and nits.
> 
> Note that I have not previously worked with SFC. In the last few days, I have
> read the documents on this document so I am fairly confident that I understand
> the relevant security aspects.
> 
> ISSUES and QUESTIONS:
> Why include a MUST in section 9.2? Isn't that already covered earlier (in the
> last sentence of section 7.5)?
> 
> The Timestamp field is supposed to handle replay attacks. However, this permits
> unlimited replays within the Delta interval. Is that acceptable?
> 
> What is the ? operator in section 7.4 supposed to connote? Subtraction seems
> like a better choice.
> 
> Is the Timestamp field only set by the first imposer in the SFP or should it be
> updated whenever an imposer changes the MAC? This should be documented
> somewhere, maybe in section 7.4.
> 
> The threat model described in draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-04 includes
> compromised nodes. The security considerations section of this document should
> describe how and to what extent compromised nodes are handled by the
> protections provided by this document and what residual risks remain.
> 
> The Security Considerations section should explicitly acknowledge that
> authentication is not provided by this method.
> 
> What does this statement mean?
>          • If HMAC algorithm is used, IV length is set to zero.
> Don't all the current algorithms use HMAC?
> 
> What is the expected behavior if these Context Headers are missing? The last
> paragraph at the bottom of page 18 seems to be ambiguous on this topic, with
> the first sentence saying that this "SHOULD be logged locally" while the last
> sentence says that this "MUST cause that packet to be discarded". Probably this
> is clear to the writer but not to this reader!
> 
> NITS:
> At the top of page 6, "unecrypted" should be "unencrypted".
> 
> In the last line of page 18, "depend" should be "depending".
> 
> Just below Figure 9 on page 20, a comma is needed after "doing so".
> 
> In the second paragraph of section 7.5, "successfuly" should be spelled
> "successfully".
> 
> At the end of the first paragraph of section 9, change the sentence from:
>          • Also, that section indicates that metadata considerations that
>          operators can take into account when using NSH are discussed in
>          [RFC8165].
> to
>          • Also, that section indicates that [RFC8165] discusses metadata
>          considerations that operators can take into account when using NSH.
> 
> The last sentence of the third paragraph of section 9 recommends that "the next
> key identifier" be distributed long before the key is changed. This should say
> "the next key identifier and associated keying material".
> 
> In the second paragraph of section 9.1, "domain be able" should be "domain
> should be able".
> 
> 
> 


From nobody Tue Dec 29 17:17:19 2020
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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 17:17:01 -0800
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
Cc: Yoav Nir <ynir.ietf@gmail.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-netconf-trust-anchors.all@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org
Message-ID: <20201230011701.GO89068@kduck.mit.edu>
References: <160107496501.14047.597283542214697710@ietfa.amsl.com> <01000174e90a9186-0a4edb66-4120-44b7-a79f-7b9935f6d48f-000000@email.amazonses.com> <010001768d05bf5b-eb6d3807-2d23-45c8-a905-dfdaf9fe5bb3-000000@email.amazonses.com>
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Subject: Re: [secdir] [Last-Call] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-trust-anchors-13
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Hi Kent,

I'm not Yoav, but...

On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 12:35:32AM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:
> Hi Yoav,
> 
> I finally found some time  :sigh:   ;)
> 
> Please see below for responses to your comments.
> 
> Kent
> 
> 
> > On Oct 2, 2020, at 7:20 AM, Kent Watsen <kent@watsen.net> wrote:
> > 
> > [-last-call]
> > 
> > Hi Yoav,
> > 
> > Thank you for your review!  The takeaway for me is that some clarifications are needed, but otherwise the draft is fundamentally okay.  I will post an update, or perhaps just a GitHub commit, for your review, when I get a chance.  That said, my getting a chance will be delayed as I have a major engagement I need to focus on now.  This email is just to let you know that your review has not been forgotten.
> > 
> > Thanks again,
> > Kent
> > 
> > 
> >> On Sep 25, 2020, at 7:02 PM, Yoav Nir via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
> >> 
> >> Reviewer: Yoav Nir
> >> Review result: Has Issues
> >> 
> >> I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's ongoing
> >> effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These
> >> comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area directors.
> >> Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any other
> >> last call comments.
> >> 
> >> The document defines a YANG model for managing a trust anchor store. It allows
> >> two kinds of trust anchors: certificates and raw public keys. However,
> >> certificates are not just containers for public keys. Certificates include
> >> attributes about key usage, path constraints and name constraints, all of which
> >> constrain the ability to use the public key, and are relevant for trust
> >> anchors. As far as I can tell the document does not include any attributes to
> >> equivalently constrain the use of the raw public keys.  If the intention is
> >> that raw public keys will not be constrained, the document should state this
> >> explicitly.
> 
> Good catch.  You’re right that this document is not constraining the raw keys in the truststore.  Looking deeper, I see that the keys are unconstrained in both the “keystore” draft and the common “crypto-types” draft.  It seems like the right thing to do is to put a Security Consideration note into each draft.  Something like this?
> 
>    4.2.  Unconstrained Public Key Usage
> 
>       This module enables the configuration of public keys without
>       constraints on their usage, e.g., what operations the key is allowed
>       to be used for (encryption, verification, both).
> 
>       This module also enables the configuration of certificates, where
>       each certificate may constrain the usage of the public key according
>       to local policy.
> 
> Thoughts?

This doesn't really fill me with joy.  In short, constraints are going to
have to be applied at *some* level, even if it's not this one, or the
system as a whole is likely to have some very surprising security
properties.  I recognize that coming up with a new language to describe
this sort of constraints is neither fun nor easy (and trying to repurpose
an existing language, such as that used by X.509, is not without issues
either), but I'd hope we could come up with something to say about how to
effectively use constraints on raw public keys.

Thanks,

Ben


From nobody Wed Dec 30 13:03:54 2020
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Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 21:03:48 +0000
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Cc: Yoav Nir <ynir.ietf@gmail.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-netconf-trust-anchors.all@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [secdir] [Last-Call] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-trust-anchors-13
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	charset=utf-8

Hi Ben,

> This doesn't really fill me with joy.  In short, constraints are going =
to
> have to be applied at *some* level, even if it's not this one, or the
> system as a whole is likely to have some very surprising security
> properties.  I recognize that coming up with a new language to =
describe
> this sort of constraints is neither fun nor easy (and trying to =
repurpose
> an existing language, such as that used by X.509, is not without =
issues
> either), but I'd hope we could come up with something to say about how =
to
> effectively use constraints on raw public keys.

You say constraints have to be applied at some level, but is this true =
when TLS uses a raw key?  Likewise for SSH keys (e.g., ~/.ssh/id_rsa)?

I=E2=80=99m extremely hesitant to make this change.  Already this work =
(9 drafts in total) has been in progress for more than 5 years.  Will =
you object during the IETF Last Call if it=E2=80=99s not added?

One thing not mentioned before, is that, while the keys are =
unconstrained in the three base drafts (crypto-types, keystore, and =
truststore), the =E2=80=9Ctis-client-server=E2=80=9D and =
=E2=80=9Cssh-client-server=E2=80=9D drafts refine the base YANG models =
to assert that the raw public key must be a SubjectPublicInfo structure =
or an SSH public key, respectively.  In fairness, this only constrains =
the format of the data, not how the keys are used.   That said, this =
approach works with OpenSSH and OpenSSL keys, apparently indicating that =
specifying the raw key=E2=80=99s use isn=E2=80=99t always necessary...


>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Ben


Kent



--Apple-Mail=_05EA0C49-FECA-4115-A0B3-683577EDF065
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
Ben,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">This doesn't =
really fill me with joy. &nbsp;In short, constraints are going to<br =
class=3D"">have to be applied at *some* level, even if it's not this =
one, or the<br class=3D"">system as a whole is likely to have some very =
surprising security<br class=3D"">properties. &nbsp;I recognize that =
coming up with a new language to describe<br class=3D"">this sort of =
constraints is neither fun nor easy (and trying to repurpose<br =
class=3D"">an existing language, such as that used by X.509, is not =
without issues<br class=3D"">either), but I'd hope we could come up with =
something to say about how to<br class=3D"">effectively use constraints =
on raw public keys.<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>You say constraints have to be applied at some =
level, but is this true when TLS uses a raw key? &nbsp;Likewise for SSH =
keys (e.g.,&nbsp;~/.ssh/id_rsa)?</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I=E2=80=
=99m extremely hesitant to make this change. &nbsp;Already this work (9 =
drafts in total) has been in progress for more than 5 years. &nbsp;Will =
you object during the IETF Last Call if it=E2=80=99s not =
added?</div><div><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, =
0, 0);" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span></div><div><font =
color=3D"#000000" class=3D"">One thing not mentioned before, is that, =
while the keys are unconstrained in the three base drafts (crypto-types, =
keystore, and truststore), the =E2=80=9Ctis-client-server=E2=80=9D and =
=E2=80=9Cssh-client-server=E2=80=9D drafts refine the base YANG models =
to assert that the raw public key must be a SubjectPublicInfo structure =
or an SSH public key, respectively. &nbsp;In fairness, this only =
constrains the format of the data, not how the keys are used. &nbsp; =
That said, this approach works with OpenSSH and OpenSSL keys, apparently =
indicating that specifying the raw key=E2=80=99s use isn=E2=80=99t =
always necessary...</font></div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br class=3D""></div><div style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Thanks,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Ben<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Kent</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_05EA0C49-FECA-4115-A0B3-683577EDF065--


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I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's ongoing=
 effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These co=
mments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area director=
s.  Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like an=
y other last call comments.=0A=0AThe summary of the review is ready.=0A=0AF=
rom the abstract, this document introduces a simple mechanism to associate =
policies to a group of Label Switched Paths (LSPs) via an extension to the =
Path Computation Element (PCE) Communication Protocol (PCEP).=0A=0AThe secu=
rity considerations section references security considerations from RFCs 53=
94, 5440, 8231, 8281, 8408, and 8697. In addition, it recommends securing s=
essions with TLS in accordance with RFCs 8253 and 7525.=0A=0ABecause this p=
rotocol extension utilizes TLVs, there is an explicit call for care in deco=
ding and utilizing these TLVs due to the potential for attack via malformed=
 payloads.=0A=0AI'm not a routing expert, but I think the authors have adeq=
uately covered security considerations for this extension.

