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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
CC: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org>, "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" <sfc-chairs@ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [sfc] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-24: (with COMMENT) - Encrypted content
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Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2017 14:39:30 +0000
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Subject: Re: [sfc] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-24: (with COMMENT) - Encrypted content
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From nobody Tue Oct  3 08:10:59 2017
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From: Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@gmail.com>
To: "The IESG" <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, sfc-chairs@ietf.org, jmh@joelhalpern.com, sfc@ietf.org
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Subject: [sfc] Suresh Krishnan's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-25: (with COMMENT)
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Suresh Krishnan has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-25: No Objection

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for quickly addressing my DISCUSS and COMMENT points.



From nobody Tue Oct  3 09:34:08 2017
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
CC: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" <sfc-chairs@ietf.org>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-24: (with COMMENT)
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Subject: Re: [sfc] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-24: (with COMMENT)
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From: "Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)" <ietf@kuehlewind.net>
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Cc: "draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" <sfc-chairs@ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
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To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [sfc]  =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-s?= =?utf-8?q?fc-nsh-24=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?=
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Hi Carlos,

thanks for you reply. Please see inline.

> Am 27.09.2017 um 21:13 schrieb Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) =
<cpignata@cisco.com>:
>=20
> Thank you, Mirja, for these questions and details.
>=20
> Please find follow-ups inline.
>=20
>> On Sep 27, 2017, at 1:02 PM, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind =
<ietf@kuehlewind.net> wrote:
>>=20
>> Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for
>> draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-24: Discuss
>>=20
>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut =
this
>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>=20
>>=20
>> Please refer to =
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>=20
>>=20
>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh/
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> DISCUSS:
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>> I have a couple of comments on the design. I know, as always in IESG =
review
>> state, it's probably too late to make any changes to the actual =
header format,
>> therefore most of my comments are actually in the comment section =
below. I
>> still decided to note them so at least people can consider these =
points.
>> However, there are a few things that I need clarification for before
>> publication, which I note in this section:
>>=20
>> 1) Sec 2.2
>> "SF/SFF/SFC Proxy/Classifier implementations that do not support SFC
>> OAM procedures SHOULD discard packets with O bit set, but MAY support
>> a configurable parameter to enable forwarding received SFC OAM
>> packets unmodified to the next element in the chain.  Forwarding OAM
>> packets unmodified by SFC elements that do not support SFC OAM
>> procedures may be acceptable for a subset of OAM functions, but can
>> result in unexpected outcomes for others; thus, it is recommended to
>> analyze the impact of forwarding an OAM packet for all OAM functions
>> prior to enabling this behavior.  The configurable parameter MUST be
>> disabled by default."
>> This part is really unclear to me and I believe needs to be further =
specified.
>> Where should this configurable parameter be? In the Context header? =
Why don't
>> you just use one of the unassigned bit to indicate if an unknown =
(OAM) packet
>> should be forwarded or not?
>=20
> The configurable parameter refers to a configuration state and device =
operational state variable, and not a data plane packet field.
>=20
> In other words, the default is drop. But if the setting `configure sff =
forward oam` then it is forwarded.
>=20
> I will say that this was a strong contentious point in the WG process =
to keep this configuration option (although my personal preference was =
not to have it, the WG was loud on it.)
>=20
>> Moreover, I also disagree with this text. If there
>> is a bit/a way to indicate if a not supported OAM packet should be =
forwarded or
>> not, it should just be defined like this, while any considerations if =
that bit
>> should be set or not depend on the OAM function itself and do not =
need to be
>> discussed here.
>=20
> I think the disagreement comes from believing the config option is a =
data plane bit.

Yes, I misunderstood the intention here. For me the text was/is written =
quite confusingly (which might be the result of the long wg discussion). =
Let me try to make an attempt to rephrase. Feel free to use any of this =
or not:

=E2=80=9EBy default OAM support MUST be disabled. Therefore a SF/SFF/SFC =
Proxy/Classifier, that is not explicitly configured to support OAM, MUST =
discards packets with the O bit set. An implementation MAY provide a =
configurable parameter to enable the forwarding of received SFC OAM =
packets to the next element in the chain. If OAM support is enabled, OAM =
packets MUST be forwarded unmodified. Forwarding OAM packets by SFC =
elements that do not itself support SFC OAM procedures may be acceptable =
for a subset of OAM functions, but can result in unexpected outcomes for =
others; thus, it is recommended to analyze the impact of forwarding an =
OAM packet for all OAM functions prior to enabling this behavior.=E2=80=9C=


One part of my confusion was mixing up the fact that packet should not =
be send unmodified with the configuration to forward or not. Splitting =
that in a separate sentence as proposed above helps for my understanding =
a lot.

>=20
>> Finally, it is not well explained what an OAM packet is at all.
>=20
> If it helps, although it seems redundant, we can add a pointer to RFC =
6291 or RFC 7276.

Yes that would definitely help.

> =20
>=20
>> Is that a 'fake' packet that is generated by the operator to actively =
test the
>> (potentially newly configured) SFP? If so, why does a SF need to know =
if a
>> packet is an OAM packet or not?
>=20
> It is an OAM packet, which can include connectivity verification, =
continuity check, performance management, etc. It could be a synthetic =
packet, or, well, an OAM packet :-)
>=20
>> Usually it's a bad idea to use different kind
>> of traffic for testing compared to what will be used in operations. =
Please
>> provide more explanation here!
>=20
> I am not sure how to address this, since the definition of OAM for SFP =
is outside the scope.=20
>=20
> Data plane protocols use an 'interception marker=E2=80=99 to =
differentiate them from actual traffic, in the context of Active or =
Hybrid OAM (as opposed to Passive OAM).
>=20
Okay.


>>=20
>> 2) section 2.4
>> "An SFC-aware SF MUST receive the data semantics first in order to
>> process the data placed in the mandatory context field.  The data
>> semantics include both the allocation schema and the meaning of the
>> included data.  How an SFC-aware SF gets the data semantics is
>> outside the scope of this specification."
>> This is really confusing to me. I think this is what you need an =
actually data
>> semantics aka type field for in the base header. Or is there an =
actual reason
>> to not put this information directly in the base header where it is =
need but
>> instead assuming some magical way this information may take to reach =
the node?
>=20
> Believe it or not, no magic involved. It=E2=80=99s called =E2=80=9Ccontr=
ol plane=E2=80=9D which is out of scope.
>=20
>> If the assumption is that the SF is configured to know based of the =
SFI what
>> the content of the context header has to be,
>=20
> No, the assumption is not that an SF =E2=80=9Cis configured=E2=80=9D. =
And the assumption is not that the SF knows what the content of the =
context header is.
>=20
> The assumption is that the SF needs to receive the data semantics =
before processing the data plane packet.
>=20
>> you a) need to say that in the
>> draft,
>=20
> The document says what it means and means what it says in this =
regards. If you find the text confusing, we can try to clarify it =
somehow.
>=20
>> and b) that's really error-prone because it's really hard to tell if =
the
>> conext header actually holds the information that you need or just =
random crap
>=20
> Is =E2=80=9Ccrap=E2=80=9D a technical term here?
>=20
>> (of course depending of the expected data type of this information). =
In short,
>> I think you really need a type field somewhere here.
>=20
> Mirja, there=E2=80=99s self-describing data and non-self-descriving =
data. Both have their place and can be used based on what a protocol is =
optimizing. This text described a use of the latter.
>=20
>> In any case, you really
>> need to explain this more! Also, the text further says: "An SF or SFC =
Proxy
>> that does not know the format or semantics of the
>> Context Header for an NSH with MD Type 1 MUST discard any packet with
>> such an NSH=E2=80=A6"
>=20
> I keep reading these couple of sentences and I understand what they =
say. So I am not positive at this point how to help out.
>=20
>> How does the SFC proxy know that it knows the format or not if there =
is no type
>> field or identifier that indicates what the format should be?
>=20
> Same as the first sentence you included in this DISCUSS item #2:=20
>=20
> "An SFC-aware SF MUST receive the data semantics first in order to
> process the data placed in the mandatory context field.=E2=80=9D
>=20
> Since an SFC proxy acts as an SFC-aware SF. That is clear in the =
document.
>=20
> That said, I will add the following to make it unambiguously clear:
>=20
>=20
> "An SFC-aware SF or SF Proxy MUST receive the data semantics first in =
order to
> process the data placed in the mandatory context field.=E2=80=9D
>=20
> And=20
>=20
> OLD:
> included data.  How an SFC-aware SF gets the data semantics is
> outside the scope of this specification.=E2=80=9D
>=20
> NEW:
> included data.  How an SFC-aware SF or SFC Proxy gets the data =
semantics is
> outside the scope of this specification.=E2=80=9C

The problem is, even if I have received some semantics how do I know =
that I have the right semantics?


>=20
>>=20
>> Also, a related question from me: why is the context header present =
in all
>> types of NSH if there is no use for it defined in this document yet? =
Why is
>> there no fixed length NSH without a context header then?
>=20
> This document defines two Context Header Types: fixed size, and =
TLV-based. There is not need, as far as the WG had concluded, for a =
fixed size no metadata MD Type.=20
>=20
> What you describe can be achieved with MD Type 2 Length =3D 2.

In this case I don=E2=80=99t really understand why Type 1 is needed for. =
This is not a blocking point but maybe the draft could explain, what =
kind of optimizations are expected with Type 1/why is it useful..?

>=20
>>=20
>> 3) Section 2.5.1:
>> "If multiple instances of the same metadata are included in an NSH
>> packet, but the definition of that context header does not allow for
>> it, the SFC-aware SF MUST process the first instance and ignore
>> subsequent instances."
>> This seems error prone to me. If the same metadata appears multiple =
where it
>> should not, that seems clearly like an error case for me. Just using =
the first
>> one and proceed normally might not be the right thing to do. In any =
case I
>> think such an occasion should at least be logged.
>=20
> OK, will add optional logging and error counting of the potentially =
error case event.
>=20
>> If the multiple instances are
>> just a copy of each other and carry the same information, it's =
probably okay to
>> use that information and proceed. If the different instances carry =
different
>> information, it maybe a bit dangerous to just use the first one and =
ignore
>> others silently. In this case I would rather recommend to drop the =
packet=E2=80=A6
>>=20
>> 4) In line with the second comment from the tsv-art review (thanks =
Wes!), I
>> don't really understand why this documents says (sec 6) that there =
can be
>> multiple next hops for the same SFP or SFs can be traversed in a =
different
>> order. May understanding (from a quick look at RFC7665) would be =
that, if those
>> things are needed e.g. for load balancing, then one should define =
different
>> SFPs and the Classifier must have the knowledge that two SFP are =
equivalent and
>> select them respectively.
>=20
> Not really. Like you said, for LB.
>=20
>> The reason why I'm really concerned about this is
>> that usually a number of packets below to a flow and all packets =
belonging to
>> the same flow just ideally take the same route. But usually only the =
Classifier
>> has a notion of what a flow is and respectively will assign the SFI =
to the
>> packets belonging to the same flow. If now any SF on the path can =
more or less
>> randomly decided to forward packet belong to the same flow to one or =
another
>> next nodes, I would assume that this is not only a problem for the =
flow, e.g.
>> reordering, but also for SF itself in many cases.
>=20
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7665#section-5.5

That=E2=80=99s fine in theory. In reality, especially e.g. for the web =
server case you need to make sure that all packets belonging to the same =
flow go to the same element. I thought it would actually be easier to =
use different SFPs such that only the Classifier must be flow-aware. If =
that=E2=80=99s not the case other nodes also need to be flow-aware and =
keep flow state. This must be mention in the document!=20

>=20
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> COMMENT:
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>> Further considerations:
>>=20
>> 1) I don't really see why a TTL in the base header is needed. I =
mostly
>> understand why there is the Service Index in service header, also I =
think there
>> should be better mean to validate that you SFP is correct and I =
ideally you
>> should really not need this. However, loop prevention can be provided =
by both
>> mechanism and moreover there is probably also often a TTL in the =
encapsulation
>> protocol and loop prevention should really be a function of that =
forwarding
>> protocol and not the NSH.
>=20
> The WG had a strong voice on the need of this field.
>=20
> (I do not disagree with you)
>=20
> But there are cases where SI is not decremented, nor is the =
encapsulation-level TTL.

Which are these cases?

>=20
>>=20
>> 2) I don't see why you need the type field in the base header. This =
is fully
>> redundant because because all you need is the length field. If the =
length is
>> 0x2 it is what you have defined as type 1 if the length field is =
larger it is
>> type 2.
>=20
> Thanks for the attempt at overloading, but no. Length =3D 6?

What?

>=20
>> I also don't see the need for any other types in future because you
>> also have the version field;
>=20
> NO.
>=20
> We do *not* want to bump up the Version field for the whole protocol =
when potentially adding a new MD Type.

Why? Using a new version does have to be something complicated/heavy. If =
you don=E2=80=99t use it for such cases, when would you use it then?

>=20
>> if you need anything else you should go or
>> probably have to go for a new version. Note that the general probably =
with
>> unnecessary redundancy is that is add complexity. If you keep this =
redundancy
>> you have to separately handle and implement the case(s) where the =
type is 1 but
>> the length is larger than expected. If at all you could probably just =
use one
>> bit to indicate that the length field is present and if not the =
length is 0x2.
>> However, saving bits does not really seem to be a concern for you, so =
that
>> might not actually be an advantage.
>=20
> I did not fully follow the train of branching pros and cons in your =
statement, but like you said earlier, there=E2=80=99s running code on =
this and would not be productive to define a different similar protocol.

Yes, I know. This is why these are only comments.
>=20
>>=20
>> 3) sec 2.5.1
>> "Unassigned bit: One unassigned bit is available for future use.  =
This
>> bit MUST NOT be set, and MUST be ignored on receipt."
>> Is there an actual reason to have an unassigned bit here?
>=20
> I am not sure I understand the question.
>=20
> The header is 32-bit aligned, and there=E2=80=99s less fields defined =
that available bits in a 32-bit word=E2=80=A6=20
>=20
Why do you define this bit instead of just having one more bit for =
length field (where this bit was =E2=80=9Astolen=E2=80=98 from). If =
there is no use case for this bit, I don=E2=80=99t understand why this =
was done...

>> Because I would
>> assume that the type already provided enough flexibility for way to =
extend the
>> metadata format in any way needed.
>>=20
>=20
> ?
>=20
>> 4) Also section 2.5.1:
>> "   Length: Indicates the length of the variable metadata, in bytes.  =
In
>> case the metadata length is not an integer number of 4-byte words,
>> the sender MUST add pad bytes immediately following the last metadata
>> byte to extend the metadata to an integer number of 4-byte words.
>> The receiver MUST round up the length field to the nearest 4-byte
>> word boundary, to locate and process the next field in the packet."
>> Your definition of the length field might be more error-prone than =
needed. It
>> would probably be easier to simply define the length as 4-byte words, =
and the=20
>> type of course defines the content of the metadata field and as such =
can simply
>> define which part of the total metadata field holds certain data of a =
certain
>> type and with part is padding.
>>=20
>=20
> Thank you. See above.
>=20
>> 5) And finally I have to say it is unclear to me why the SFI and SI =
field are
>> described as a separate header. Given they have to be present in all =
SFH,
>=20
> What is =E2=80=9CSFH=E2=80=9D?

meant NSH=E2=80=A6 too make three-letter acronym in my life=E2=80=A6=20

>=20
>> I
>> would consider them as two fields of the base header. But it is after =
all
>> really just an editorial issue. However, all this together with my =
previous
>> comments makes the protocol spec actually much more complicated than =
it needs
>> to be=E2=80=A6
>=20
> Noted.
>=20
>>=20
>> 6) I also have to agree to the last comment of the tsv-art review: I =
think it
>> would have been nicer to not only described the NSH but also define =
mappings to
>> a set of possible encapsulations because I would assume that for each
>> encapsulation there are a couple specific considerations that need to =
be made
>> to make things work successfully. I don't think that all =
encapsulations can be
>> captured by general consideration and I cannot make up my mind to go =
through
>> all cases in my head to figure out if there are things that needs to =
be noted.
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> OK.
>=20
> Thanks again,
>=20
> Carlos.
>=20


From nobody Thu Oct  5 05:45:53 2017
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From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2017 08:45:35 -0400
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To: "Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)" <ietf@kuehlewind.net>
Cc: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>,  "draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>,  "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" <sfc-chairs@ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
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Hi Mirja,

On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 8:29 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) <ietf@kuehlewind.ne=
t
> wrote:

> Hi Carlos,
>
> thanks for you reply. Please see inline.
>
> > Am 27.09.2017 um 21:13 schrieb Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
> cpignata@cisco.com>:
> >
> > Thank you, Mirja, for these questions and details.
> >
> > Please find follow-ups inline.
> >
> >> On Sep 27, 2017, at 1:02 PM, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net=
>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for
> >> draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-24: Discuss
> >>
> >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut thi=
s
> >> introductory paragraph, however.)
> >>
> >>
> >> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.
> html
> >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> >>
> >>
> >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> DISCUSS:
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> I have a couple of comments on the design. I know, as always in IESG
> review
> >> state, it's probably too late to make any changes to the actual header
> format,
> >> therefore most of my comments are actually in the comment section
> below. I
> >> still decided to note them so at least people can consider these point=
s.
> >> However, there are a few things that I need clarification for before
> >> publication, which I note in this section:
> >>
> >> 1) Sec 2.2
> >> "SF/SFF/SFC Proxy/Classifier implementations that do not support SFC
> >> OAM procedures SHOULD discard packets with O bit set, but MAY support
> >> a configurable parameter to enable forwarding received SFC OAM
> >> packets unmodified to the next element in the chain.  Forwarding OAM
> >> packets unmodified by SFC elements that do not support SFC OAM
> >> procedures may be acceptable for a subset of OAM functions, but can
> >> result in unexpected outcomes for others; thus, it is recommended to
> >> analyze the impact of forwarding an OAM packet for all OAM functions
> >> prior to enabling this behavior.  The configurable parameter MUST be
> >> disabled by default."
> >> This part is really unclear to me and I believe needs to be further
> specified.
> >> Where should this configurable parameter be? In the Context header? Wh=
y
> don't
> >> you just use one of the unassigned bit to indicate if an unknown (OAM)
> packet
> >> should be forwarded or not?
> >
> > The configurable parameter refers to a configuration state and device
> operational state variable, and not a data plane packet field.
> >
> > In other words, the default is drop. But if the setting `configure sff
> forward oam` then it is forwarded.
> >
> > I will say that this was a strong contentious point in the WG process t=
o
> keep this configuration option (although my personal preference was not t=
o
> have it, the WG was loud on it.)
> >
> >> Moreover, I also disagree with this text. If there
> >> is a bit/a way to indicate if a not supported OAM packet should be
> forwarded or
> >> not, it should just be defined like this, while any considerations if
> that bit
> >> should be set or not depend on the OAM function itself and do not need
> to be
> >> discussed here.
> >
> > I think the disagreement comes from believing the config option is a
> data plane bit.
>
> Yes, I misunderstood the intention here. For me the text was/is written
> quite confusingly (which might be the result of the long wg discussion).
> Let me try to make an attempt to rephrase. Feel free to use any of this o=
r
> not:
>
> =E2=80=9EBy default OAM support MUST be disabled. Therefore a SF/SFF/SFC
> Proxy/Classifier, that is not explicitly configured to support OAM, MUST
> discards packets with the O bit set. An implementation MAY provide a
> configurable parameter to enable the forwarding of received SFC OAM packe=
ts
> to the next element in the chain. If OAM support is enabled, OAM packets
> MUST be forwarded unmodified. Forwarding OAM packets by SFC elements that
> do not itself support SFC OAM procedures may be acceptable for a subset o=
f
> OAM functions, but can result in unexpected outcomes for others; thus, it
> is recommended to analyze the impact of forwarding an OAM packet for all
> OAM functions prior to enabling this behavior.=E2=80=9C
>
> One part of my confusion was mixing up the fact that packet should not be
> send unmodified with the configuration to forward or not. Splitting that =
in
> a separate sentence as proposed above helps for my understanding a lot.
>
> >
> >> Finally, it is not well explained what an OAM packet is at all.
> >
> > If it helps, although it seems redundant, we can add a pointer to RFC
> 6291 or RFC 7276.
>
> Yes that would definitely help.
>
> >
> >
> >> Is that a 'fake' packet that is generated by the operator to actively
> test the
> >> (potentially newly configured) SFP? If so, why does a SF need to know
> if a
> >> packet is an OAM packet or not?
> >
> > It is an OAM packet, which can include connectivity verification,
> continuity check, performance management, etc. It could be a synthetic
> packet, or, well, an OAM packet :-)
> >
> >> Usually it's a bad idea to use different kind
> >> of traffic for testing compared to what will be used in operations.
> Please
> >> provide more explanation here!
> >
> > I am not sure how to address this, since the definition of OAM for SFP
> is outside the scope.
> >
> > Data plane protocols use an 'interception marker=E2=80=99 to differenti=
ate them
> from actual traffic, in the context of Active or Hybrid OAM (as opposed t=
o
> Passive OAM).
> >
> Okay.
>
>
> >>
> >> 2) section 2.4
> >> "An SFC-aware SF MUST receive the data semantics first in order to
> >> process the data placed in the mandatory context field.  The data
> >> semantics include both the allocation schema and the meaning of the
> >> included data.  How an SFC-aware SF gets the data semantics is
> >> outside the scope of this specification."
> >> This is really confusing to me. I think this is what you need an
> actually data
> >> semantics aka type field for in the base header. Or is there an actual
> reason
> >> to not put this information directly in the base header where it is
> need but
> >> instead assuming some magical way this information may take to reach
> the node?
> >
> > Believe it or not, no magic involved. It=E2=80=99s called =E2=80=9Ccont=
rol plane=E2=80=9D which
> is out of scope.
> >
> >> If the assumption is that the SF is configured to know based of the SF=
I
> what
> >> the content of the context header has to be,
> >
> > No, the assumption is not that an SF =E2=80=9Cis configured=E2=80=9D. A=
nd the assumption
> is not that the SF knows what the content of the context header is.
> >
> > The assumption is that the SF needs to receive the data semantics befor=
e
> processing the data plane packet.
> >
> >> you a) need to say that in the
> >> draft,
> >
> > The document says what it means and means what it says in this regards.
> If you find the text confusing, we can try to clarify it somehow.
> >
> >> and b) that's really error-prone because it's really hard to tell if t=
he
> >> conext header actually holds the information that you need or just
> random crap
> >
> > Is =E2=80=9Ccrap=E2=80=9D a technical term here?
> >
> >> (of course depending of the expected data type of this information). I=
n
> short,
> >> I think you really need a type field somewhere here.
> >
> > Mirja, there=E2=80=99s self-describing data and non-self-descriving dat=
a. Both
> have their place and can be used based on what a protocol is optimizing.
> This text described a use of the latter.
> >
> >> In any case, you really
> >> need to explain this more! Also, the text further says: "An SF or SFC
> Proxy
> >> that does not know the format or semantics of the
> >> Context Header for an NSH with MD Type 1 MUST discard any packet with
> >> such an NSH=E2=80=A6"
> >
> > I keep reading these couple of sentences and I understand what they say=
.
> So I am not positive at this point how to help out.
> >
> >> How does the SFC proxy know that it knows the format or not if there i=
s
> no type
> >> field or identifier that indicates what the format should be?
> >
> > Same as the first sentence you included in this DISCUSS item #2:
> >
> > "An SFC-aware SF MUST receive the data semantics first in order to
> > process the data placed in the mandatory context field.=E2=80=9D
> >
> > Since an SFC proxy acts as an SFC-aware SF. That is clear in the
> document.
> >
> > That said, I will add the following to make it unambiguously clear:
> >
> >
> > "An SFC-aware SF or SF Proxy MUST receive the data semantics first in
> order to
> > process the data placed in the mandatory context field.=E2=80=9D
> >
> > And
> >
> > OLD:
> > included data.  How an SFC-aware SF gets the data semantics is
> > outside the scope of this specification.=E2=80=9D
> >
> > NEW:
> > included data.  How an SFC-aware SF or SFC Proxy gets the data semantic=
s
> is
> > outside the scope of this specification.=E2=80=9C
>
> The problem is, even if I have received some semantics how do I know that
> I have the right semantics?
>

The control-plane would pass the semantic associated with the particular
Service Function Path.


> >
> >>
> >> Also, a related question from me: why is the context header present in
> all
> >> types of NSH if there is no use for it defined in this document yet?
> Why is
> >> there no fixed length NSH without a context header then?
> >
> > This document defines two Context Header Types: fixed size, and
> TLV-based. There is not need, as far as the WG had concluded, for a fixed
> size no metadata MD Type.
> >
> > What you describe can be achieved with MD Type 2 Length =3D 2.
>
> In this case I don=E2=80=99t really understand why Type 1 is needed for. =
This is
> not a blocking point but maybe the draft could explain, what kind of
> optimizations are expected with Type 1/why is it useful..?
>

It is an optimization for some hardware processing. The two types are part
of a compromise discussion that happened a number of years ago.


> >
> >>
> >> 3) Section 2.5.1:
> >> "If multiple instances of the same metadata are included in an NSH
> >> packet, but the definition of that context header does not allow for
> >> it, the SFC-aware SF MUST process the first instance and ignore
> >> subsequent instances."
> >> This seems error prone to me. If the same metadata appears multiple
> where it
> >> should not, that seems clearly like an error case for me. Just using
> the first
> >> one and proceed normally might not be the right thing to do. In any
> case I
> >> think such an occasion should at least be logged.
> >
> > OK, will add optional logging and error counting of the potentially
> error case event.
> >
> >> If the multiple instances are
> >> just a copy of each other and carry the same information, it's probabl=
y
> okay to
> >> use that information and proceed. If the different instances carry
> different
> >> information, it maybe a bit dangerous to just use the first one and
> ignore
> >> others silently. In this case I would rather recommend to drop the
> packet=E2=80=A6
> >>
> >> 4) In line with the second comment from the tsv-art review (thanks
> Wes!), I
> >> don't really understand why this documents says (sec 6) that there can
> be
> >> multiple next hops for the same SFP or SFs can be traversed in a
> different
> >> order. May understanding (from a quick look at RFC7665) would be that,
> if those
> >> things are needed e.g. for load balancing, then one should define
> different
> >> SFPs and the Classifier must have the knowledge that two SFP are
> equivalent and
> >> select them respectively.
> >
> > Not really. Like you said, for LB.
> >
> >> The reason why I'm really concerned about this is
> >> that usually a number of packets below to a flow and all packets
> belonging to
> >> the same flow just ideally take the same route. But usually only the
> Classifier
> >> has a notion of what a flow is and respectively will assign the SFI to
> the
> >> packets belonging to the same flow. If now any SF on the path can more
> or less
> >> randomly decided to forward packet belong to the same flow to one or
> another
> >> next nodes, I would assume that this is not only a problem for the
> flow, e.g.
> >> reordering, but also for SF itself in many cases.
> >
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7665#section-5.5
>
> That=E2=80=99s fine in theory. In reality, especially e.g. for the web se=
rver case
> you need to make sure that all packets belonging to the same flow go to t=
he
> same element. I thought it would actually be easier to use different SFPs
> such that only the Classifier must be flow-aware. If that=E2=80=99s not t=
he case
> other nodes also need to be flow-aware and keep flow state. This must be
> mention in the document!


The architecture is clear that the assignment of flows to particular
Service Functions can happen at a variety of different points.  One of the
motivations for carrying meta-data is to allow a classifier to insert
information identifying a particular flow so that all its packets can be
properly load-balanced to the same Service Function.  If the Classifier
does this, then there is not a need for every load-balancing element to do
reclassification.


>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> COMMENT:
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Further considerations:
> >>
> >> 1) I don't really see why a TTL in the base header is needed. I mostly
> >> understand why there is the Service Index in service header, also I
> think there
> >> should be better mean to validate that you SFP is correct and I ideall=
y
> you
> >> should really not need this. However, loop prevention can be provided
> by both
> >> mechanism and moreover there is probably also often a TTL in the
> encapsulation
> >> protocol and loop prevention should really be a function of that
> forwarding
> >> protocol and not the NSH.
> >
> > The WG had a strong voice on the need of this field.
> >
> > (I do not disagree with you)
> >
> > But there are cases where SI is not decremented, nor is the
> encapsulation-level TTL.
>
> Which are these cases?


The Service Index is always decremented by the Service Function.
Since a Classifier can overwrite with a new SFP and SI, it is possible, in
theory, to get loops
where a packet moves along the new SFP and then gets reclassified back into
the loop.
The Service Index terminates loops within a particular SFP.
The TTL terminates loops within the service overlay plane - regardless of
how many different
SFPs that may involve.

It is a subtle, but critical, technical necessity that was recognized and
added about 10 months ago.


> >
> >>
> >> 2) I don't see why you need the type field in the base header. This is
> fully
> >> redundant because because all you need is the length field. If the
> length is
> >> 0x2 it is what you have defined as type 1 if the length field is large=
r
> it is
> >> type 2.
> >
> > Thanks for the attempt at overloading, but no. Length =3D 6?
>
> What?
>

An MD-type 2 packet might have a length of 6 because of 4 32-byte words of
TLV
meta-data value.  It isn't possible to use the length to disambiguate.

>
> >> I also don't see the need for any other types in future because you
> >> also have the version field;
> >
> > NO.
> >
> > We do *not* want to bump up the Version field for the whole protocol
> when potentially adding a new MD Type.
>
> Why? Using a new version does have to be something complicated/heavy. If
> you don=E2=80=99t use it for such cases, when would you use it then?
>

The flexibility in these fields and having a version number is for
future-proofing. Once an encapsulation is burnt
into silicon, it is extremely hard to go back and add such things in.

Regards,
Alia

--f403045cf0fac61104055acc19dd
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Mirja,<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote">On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 8:29 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net" target=3D"_blank">ietf@=
kuehlewind.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi C=
arlos,<br>
<br>
thanks for you reply. Please see inline.<br>
<div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
&gt; Am 27.09.2017 um 21:13 schrieb Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com">cpignata@cisco.com</a>&gt;:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thank you, Mirja, for these questions and details.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please find follow-ups inline.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On Sep 27, 2017, at 1:02 PM, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net">ietf@kuehlewind.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for=
<br>
&gt;&gt; draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-24: Discuss<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to =
all<br>
&gt;&gt; email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut=
 this<br>
&gt;&gt; introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/dis=
cuss-criteria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/iesg/<wbr>statement/discuss-criteria.<wbr>html</a><br>
&gt;&gt; for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here=
:<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh/" r=
el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/d=
raft-ietf-sfc-nsh/</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; ------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<=
wbr>----------<br>
&gt;&gt; DISCUSS:<br>
&gt;&gt; ------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<=
wbr>----------<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I have a couple of comments on the design. I know, as always in IE=
SG review<br>
&gt;&gt; state, it&#39;s probably too late to make any changes to the actua=
l header format,<br>
&gt;&gt; therefore most of my comments are actually in the comment section =
below. I<br>
&gt;&gt; still decided to note them so at least people can consider these p=
oints.<br>
&gt;&gt; However, there are a few things that I need clarification for befo=
re<br>
&gt;&gt; publication, which I note in this section:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; 1) Sec 2.2<br>
&gt;&gt; &quot;SF/SFF/SFC Proxy/Classifier implementations that do not supp=
ort SFC<br>
&gt;&gt; OAM procedures SHOULD discard packets with O bit set, but MAY supp=
ort<br>
&gt;&gt; a configurable parameter to enable forwarding received SFC OAM<br>
&gt;&gt; packets unmodified to the next element in the chain.=C2=A0 Forward=
ing OAM<br>
&gt;&gt; packets unmodified by SFC elements that do not support SFC OAM<br>
&gt;&gt; procedures may be acceptable for a subset of OAM functions, but ca=
n<br>
&gt;&gt; result in unexpected outcomes for others; thus, it is recommended =
to<br>
&gt;&gt; analyze the impact of forwarding an OAM packet for all OAM functio=
ns<br>
&gt;&gt; prior to enabling this behavior.=C2=A0 The configurable parameter =
MUST be<br>
&gt;&gt; disabled by default.&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt; This part is really unclear to me and I believe needs to be furthe=
r specified.<br>
&gt;&gt; Where should this configurable parameter be? In the Context header=
? Why don&#39;t<br>
&gt;&gt; you just use one of the unassigned bit to indicate if an unknown (=
OAM) packet<br>
&gt;&gt; should be forwarded or not?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The configurable parameter refers to a configuration state and device =
operational state variable, and not a data plane packet field.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; In other words, the default is drop. But if the setting `configure sff=
 forward oam` then it is forwarded.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I will say that this was a strong contentious point in the WG process =
to keep this configuration option (although my personal preference was not =
to have it, the WG was loud on it.)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Moreover, I also disagree with this text. If there<br>
&gt;&gt; is a bit/a way to indicate if a not supported OAM packet should be=
 forwarded or<br>
&gt;&gt; not, it should just be defined like this, while any considerations=
 if that bit<br>
&gt;&gt; should be set or not depend on the OAM function itself and do not =
need to be<br>
&gt;&gt; discussed here.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I think the disagreement comes from believing the config option is a d=
ata plane bit.<br>
<br>
</div></div>Yes, I misunderstood the intention here. For me the text was/is=
 written quite confusingly (which might be the result of the long wg discus=
sion). Let me try to make an attempt to rephrase. Feel free to use any of t=
his or not:<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9EBy default OAM support MUST be disabled. Therefore a SF/SFF/SFC Pr=
oxy/Classifier, that is not explicitly configured to support OAM, MUST disc=
ards packets with the O bit set. An implementation MAY provide a configurab=
le parameter to enable the forwarding of received SFC OAM packets to the ne=
xt element in the chain. If OAM support is enabled, OAM packets MUST be for=
warded unmodified. Forwarding OAM packets by SFC elements that do not itsel=
f support SFC OAM procedures may be acceptable for a subset of OAM function=
s, but can result in unexpected outcomes for others; thus, it is recommende=
d to analyze the impact of forwarding an OAM packet for all OAM functions p=
rior to enabling this behavior.=E2=80=9C<br>
<br>
One part of my confusion was mixing up the fact that packet should not be s=
end unmodified with the configuration to forward or not. Splitting that in =
a separate sentence as proposed above helps for my understanding a lot.<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Finally, it is not well explained what an OAM packet is at all.<br=
>
&gt;<br>
&gt; If it helps, although it seems redundant, we can add a pointer to RFC =
6291 or RFC 7276.<br>
<br>
</span>Yes that would definitely help.<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Is that a &#39;fake&#39; packet that is generated by the operator =
to actively test the<br>
&gt;&gt; (potentially newly configured) SFP? If so, why does a SF need to k=
now if a<br>
&gt;&gt; packet is an OAM packet or not?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It is an OAM packet, which can include connectivity verification, cont=
inuity check, performance management, etc. It could be a synthetic packet, =
or, well, an OAM packet :-)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Usually it&#39;s a bad idea to use different kind<br>
&gt;&gt; of traffic for testing compared to what will be used in operations=
. Please<br>
&gt;&gt; provide more explanation here!<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I am not sure how to address this, since the definition of OAM for SFP=
 is outside the scope.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Data plane protocols use an &#39;interception marker=E2=80=99 to diffe=
rentiate them from actual traffic, in the context of Active or Hybrid OAM (=
as opposed to Passive OAM).<br>
&gt;<br>
</span>Okay.<br>
<div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; 2) section 2.4<br>
&gt;&gt; &quot;An SFC-aware SF MUST receive the data semantics first in ord=
er to<br>
&gt;&gt; process the data placed in the mandatory context field.=C2=A0 The =
data<br>
&gt;&gt; semantics include both the allocation schema and the meaning of th=
e<br>
&gt;&gt; included data.=C2=A0 How an SFC-aware SF gets the data semantics i=
s<br>
&gt;&gt; outside the scope of this specification.&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt; This is really confusing to me. I think this is what you need an a=
ctually data<br>
&gt;&gt; semantics aka type field for in the base header. Or is there an ac=
tual reason<br>
&gt;&gt; to not put this information directly in the base header where it i=
s need but<br>
&gt;&gt; instead assuming some magical way this information may take to rea=
ch the node?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Believe it or not, no magic involved. It=E2=80=99s called =E2=80=9Ccon=
trol plane=E2=80=9D which is out of scope.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; If the assumption is that the SF is configured to know based of th=
e SFI what<br>
&gt;&gt; the content of the context header has to be,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; No, the assumption is not that an SF =E2=80=9Cis configured=E2=80=9D. =
And the assumption is not that the SF knows what the content of the context=
 header is.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The assumption is that the SF needs to receive the data semantics befo=
re processing the data plane packet.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; you a) need to say that in the<br>
&gt;&gt; draft,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The document says what it means and means what it says in this regards=
. If you find the text confusing, we can try to clarify it somehow.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; and b) that&#39;s really error-prone because it&#39;s really hard =
to tell if the<br>
&gt;&gt; conext header actually holds the information that you need or just=
 random crap<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Is =E2=80=9Ccrap=E2=80=9D a technical term here?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; (of course depending of the expected data type of this information=
). In short,<br>
&gt;&gt; I think you really need a type field somewhere here.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Mirja, there=E2=80=99s self-describing data and non-self-descriving da=
ta. Both have their place and can be used based on what a protocol is optim=
izing. This text described a use of the latter.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; In any case, you really<br>
&gt;&gt; need to explain this more! Also, the text further says: &quot;An S=
F or SFC Proxy<br>
&gt;&gt; that does not know the format or semantics of the<br>
&gt;&gt; Context Header for an NSH with MD Type 1 MUST discard any packet w=
ith<br>
&gt;&gt; such an NSH=E2=80=A6&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I keep reading these couple of sentences and I understand what they sa=
y. So I am not positive at this point how to help out.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; How does the SFC proxy know that it knows the format or not if the=
re is no type<br>
&gt;&gt; field or identifier that indicates what the format should be?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Same as the first sentence you included in this DISCUSS item #2:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &quot;An SFC-aware SF MUST receive the data semantics first in order t=
o<br>
&gt; process the data placed in the mandatory context field.=E2=80=9D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Since an SFC proxy acts as an SFC-aware SF. That is clear in the docum=
ent.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; That said, I will add the following to make it unambiguously clear:<br=
>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &quot;An SFC-aware SF or SF Proxy MUST receive the data semantics firs=
t in order to<br>
&gt; process the data placed in the mandatory context field.=E2=80=9D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; And<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; OLD:<br>
&gt; included data.=C2=A0 How an SFC-aware SF gets the data semantics is<br=
>
&gt; outside the scope of this specification.=E2=80=9D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; NEW:<br>
&gt; included data.=C2=A0 How an SFC-aware SF or SFC Proxy gets the data se=
mantics is<br>
</div></div>&gt; outside the scope of this specification.=E2=80=9C<br>
<br>
The problem is, even if I have received some semantics how do I know that I=
 have the right semantics?<span class=3D""><br></span></blockquote><div><br=
></div><div>The control-plane would pass the semantic associated with the p=
articular Service Function Path.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding=
-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Also, a related question from me: why is the context header presen=
t in all<br>
&gt;&gt; types of NSH if there is no use for it defined in this document ye=
t? Why is<br>
&gt;&gt; there no fixed length NSH without a context header then?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This document defines two Context Header Types: fixed size, and TLV-ba=
sed. There is not need, as far as the WG had concluded, for a fixed size no=
 metadata MD Type.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; What you describe can be achieved with MD Type 2 Length =3D 2.<br>
<br>
</span>In this case I don=E2=80=99t really understand why Type 1 is needed =
for. This is not a blocking point but maybe the draft could explain, what k=
ind of optimizations are expected with Type 1/why is it useful..?<br></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div>It is an optimization for some hardware processi=
ng. The two types are part of a compromise discussion that happened a numbe=
r of years ago.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div class=3D"h5">&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; 3) Section 2.5.1:<br>
&gt;&gt; &quot;If multiple instances of the same metadata are included in a=
n NSH<br>
&gt;&gt; packet, but the definition of that context header does not allow f=
or<br>
&gt;&gt; it, the SFC-aware SF MUST process the first instance and ignore<br=
>
&gt;&gt; subsequent instances.&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt; This seems error prone to me. If the same metadata appears multipl=
e where it<br>
&gt;&gt; should not, that seems clearly like an error case for me. Just usi=
ng the first<br>
&gt;&gt; one and proceed normally might not be the right thing to do. In an=
y case I<br>
&gt;&gt; think such an occasion should at least be logged.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; OK, will add optional logging and error counting of the potentially er=
ror case event.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; If the multiple instances are<br>
&gt;&gt; just a copy of each other and carry the same information, it&#39;s=
 probably okay to<br>
&gt;&gt; use that information and proceed. If the different instances carry=
 different<br>
&gt;&gt; information, it maybe a bit dangerous to just use the first one an=
d ignore<br>
&gt;&gt; others silently. In this case I would rather recommend to drop the=
 packet=E2=80=A6<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; 4) In line with the second comment from the tsv-art review (thanks=
 Wes!), I<br>
&gt;&gt; don&#39;t really understand why this documents says (sec 6) that t=
here can be<br>
&gt;&gt; multiple next hops for the same SFP or SFs can be traversed in a d=
ifferent<br>
&gt;&gt; order. May understanding (from a quick look at RFC7665) would be t=
hat, if those<br>
&gt;&gt; things are needed e.g. for load balancing, then one should define =
different<br>
&gt;&gt; SFPs and the Classifier must have the knowledge that two SFP are e=
quivalent and<br>
&gt;&gt; select them respectively.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Not really. Like you said, for LB.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; The reason why I&#39;m really concerned about this is<br>
&gt;&gt; that usually a number of packets below to a flow and all packets b=
elonging to<br>
&gt;&gt; the same flow just ideally take the same route. But usually only t=
he Classifier<br>
&gt;&gt; has a notion of what a flow is and respectively will assign the SF=
I to the<br>
&gt;&gt; packets belonging to the same flow. If now any SF on the path can =
more or less<br>
&gt;&gt; randomly decided to forward packet belong to the same flow to one =
or another<br>
&gt;&gt; next nodes, I would assume that this is not only a problem for the=
 flow, e.g.<br>
&gt;&gt; reordering, but also for SF itself in many cases.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7665#section-5.5" rel=3D"nor=
eferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>rfc7665#section=
-5.5</a><br>
<br>
</div></div>That=E2=80=99s fine in theory. In reality, especially e.g. for =
the web server case you need to make sure that all packets belonging to the=
 same flow go to the same element. I thought it would actually be easier to=
 use different SFPs such that only the Classifier must be flow-aware. If th=
at=E2=80=99s not the case other nodes also need to be flow-aware and keep f=
low state. This must be mention in the document!</blockquote><div><br></div=
><div>The architecture is clear that the assignment of flows to particular =
Service Functions can happen at a variety of different points.=C2=A0 One of=
 the motivations for carrying meta-data is to allow a classifier to insert =
information identifying a particular flow so that all its packets can be pr=
operly load-balanced to the same Service Function.=C2=A0 If the Classifier =
does this, then there is not a need for every load-balancing element to do =
reclassification.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex"><span class=3D""><br>
&gt;&gt; ------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<=
wbr>----------<br>
&gt;&gt; COMMENT:<br>
&gt;&gt; ------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<=
wbr>----------<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Further considerations:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; 1) I don&#39;t really see why a TTL in the base header is needed. =
I mostly<br>
&gt;&gt; understand why there is the Service Index in service header, also =
I think there<br>
&gt;&gt; should be better mean to validate that you SFP is correct and I id=
eally you<br>
&gt;&gt; should really not need this. However, loop prevention can be provi=
ded by both<br>
&gt;&gt; mechanism and moreover there is probably also often a TTL in the e=
ncapsulation<br>
&gt;&gt; protocol and loop prevention should really be a function of that f=
orwarding<br>
&gt;&gt; protocol and not the NSH.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The WG had a strong voice on the need of this field.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; (I do not disagree with you)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; But there are cases where SI is not decremented, nor is the encapsulat=
ion-level TTL.<br>
<br>
</span>Which are these cases?</blockquote><div><br></div><div>The Service I=
ndex is always decremented by the Service Function.</div><div>Since a Class=
ifier can overwrite with a new SFP and SI, it is possible, in theory, to ge=
t loops</div><div>where a packet moves along the new SFP and then gets recl=
assified back into the loop.</div><div>The Service Index terminates loops w=
ithin a particular SFP.</div><div>The TTL terminates loops within the servi=
ce overlay plane - regardless of how many different</div><div>SFPs that may=
 involve.</div><div><br></div><div>It is a subtle, but critical, technical =
necessity that was recognized and added about 10 months ago.</div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; 2) I don&#39;t see why you need the type field in the base header.=
 This is fully<br>
&gt;&gt; redundant because because all you need is the length field. If the=
 length is<br>
&gt;&gt; 0x2 it is what you have defined as type 1 if the length field is l=
arger it is<br>
&gt;&gt; type 2.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks for the attempt at overloading, but no. Length =3D 6?<br>
<br>
</span>What?<span class=3D""><br></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>An=
 MD-type 2 packet might have a length of 6 because of 4 32-byte words of TL=
V</div><div>meta-data value.=C2=A0 It isn&#39;t possible to use the length =
to disambiguate.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><=
span class=3D"">
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I also don&#39;t see the need for any other types in future becaus=
e you<br>
&gt;&gt; also have the version field;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; NO.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; We do *not* want to bump up the Version field for the whole protocol w=
hen potentially adding a new MD Type.<br>
<br>
</span>Why? Using a new version does have to be something complicated/heavy=
. If you don=E2=80=99t use it for such cases, when would you use it then?<s=
pan class=3D""><br></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The flexibility =
in these fields and having a version number is for future-proofing. Once an=
 encapsulation is burnt</div><div>into silicon, it is extremely hard to go =
back and add such things in.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><=
div>Alia</div><div>=C2=A0</div></div></div></div>

--f403045cf0fac61104055acc19dd--


From nobody Thu Oct  5 07:50:13 2017
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Subject: [sfc] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-26.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Service Function Chaining WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Network Service Header (NSH)
        Authors         : Paul Quinn
                          Uri Elzur
                          Carlos Pignataro
	Filename        : draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-26.txt
	Pages           : 37
	Date            : 2017-10-05

Abstract:
   This document describes a Network Service Header (NSH) imposed on
   packets or frames to realize service function paths.  The NSH also
   provides a mechanism for metadata exchange along the instantiated
   service paths.  The NSH is the SFC encapsulation required to support
   the Service Function Chaining (SFC) architecture (defined in
   RFC7665).


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-26
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-26

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-26


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

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From: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
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Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" <sfc-chairs@ietf.org>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
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To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [sfc] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-24: (with COMMENT)
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Hi, comments inline:

> On Oct 3, 2017, at 11:33 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) =
<cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> [=E2=80=A6]
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> -2.2, MD type 0x0: "Implementations SHOULD silently
>>>> discard packets with MD Type 0x0."
>>>> Why not MUST?
>>>=20
>>> Because we do not want a hammer larger than needed. SHOULD achieves =
our goal without locking the door for good, should valid reasons be =
found.
>>>=20
>>=20
>> Do you envision situations where it might make sense to _not_ drop =
such packets? If so, it would be helpful to mention that in the text.
>>=20
>=20
> I do not. Although I/we do not envision them now, someone might in the =
future (drop loudly, find situations to quarantine them, tunnel them to =
a sink for something not silently drop, etc)

Okay. I think an example or two like that in the text would be helpful. =
I=E2=80=99m not looking for anything constraining. (Keep in mind these =
are all non-blocking comments :-)  )

>=20
>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> -- MD type 0xF: "Implementations not explicitly configured to be =
part of
>>>> an experiment SHOULD silently discard packets with MD Type 0xF."
>>>> Why not MUST?
>>>=20
>>> Ditto.
>>=20
>> Also ditto :-)
>=20
> Idem. :-)

that :-)


>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> -2.2, Next Protocol Values:
>>>> Why are there 2 experimental values? (as opposed to 1, or, well, =
3).
>>>=20
>>> No particular reason. One seems not enough potentially for creative =
experimentation.
>>>=20
>>> My favorite number is 27, but we felt that was too many :-)
>>=20
>> Okay :-)
>>=20
>=20
> Given the field is an octet, we felt 2 was enough but not too many. 1 =
seemed too small of a number. This also coincides with how Experimental =
values are reserved for other octet values. For example, RFC 4727, =
Sections 2.3 and 3.3, and RFC 3692 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3692#section-2.1>
>=20
> Is there a particular reason why you ask?

Only that I usually see either one value or a range of values marked =
=E2=80=9Cexperimental=E2=80=9D, so 2 seemed odd.

>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> -2.3, last paragraph (and several other places):
>>>> This draft seems to take a position that a failed SFP means the =
service level
>>>> flow fails. Are there no use cases where delivery of the service =
flow is
>>>> critical and should happen even if the chain of middleboxes fails?
>>>=20
>>> The issue is that with SI=3D0 there is no next SF to deliver.
>>=20
>> Maybe there=E2=80=99s no next SF, but one assumes the encapsulated =
packet is addressed to an end-system of some sort, which may or may not =
be part of the SFP? Are there never situations where it would make sense =
to give up on the SFP but still route the content to its destination?
>>=20
>=20
> I cannot think of any. Seems like a risk of leakage.

Okay, It might be worth a mention somewhere that this draft assumes that =
a failure of the service path means a failure to deliver the packets to =
the end-system.

[=E2=80=A6]

>=20
>> [=E2=80=A6]
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Editorial:
>>>>=20
>>>> -2.2, "O bit", last paragraph: "The configurable parameter MUST be
>>>> disabled by default."
>>>> Does "disabled" mean "unset"  (or "set to zero=E2=80=9D)?
>>>=20
>>> No. It means disabled.
>>=20
>> I don=E2=80=99t understand how you disable a bit. The bit is still =
there and readable either way, right?
>>=20
>=20
> The bit is still there, readable, and it can still take either of two =
values: 0, and 1, as in Section 2 of RFC 3514 :-)
>=20
> But, the sentence you copied does not have any mention of =E2=80=9Cdisab=
ling a bit=E2=80=9D. It is talking about =E2=80=9Cdisabling a =
configuration parameter=E2=80=9D.
>=20
> The same paragraph, earlier, says =E2=80=9Ca configurable parameter to =
enable forwarding=E2=80=9D. That parameter MUST be disabled by default.

Ah, misread. I thought the =E2=80=9CO-bit=E2=80=9D was the parameter, =
but we are talking about a configurable parameter about how you react to =
the O-bit. I would argue that the behavior indicated by the parameter is =
disabled, rather than the parameter itself, but that=E2=80=99s less =
confusing than =E2=80=9Cdisabling the O-bit=E2=80=9D as I originally =
read things.

>=20
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> -2.2, "unassigned bits": "At reception, all
>>>> elements MUST NOT modify their actions based on these unknown =
bits."
>>>> Isn't that MUST NOT just a restatement of the "MUST ignore" from =
the previous
>>>> sentence? There's no problem with reinforcing a point, but there =
shouldn't be
>>>> multiple instances of the same 2119 requirement. Also, would =
logging a warning
>>>> violate the "MUST NOT modify their actions/MUST ignore" =
requirement?
>>>=20
>>> It is slightly different.
>>=20
>> How is it different?
>=20
> The former says =E2=80=9Cdo not change the bits, ignore them=E2=80=9D. =
The latter says =E2=80=9Cdo not change your actions based on the value =
of those bits, ignore them. The ignore them part is common, but they are =
different because one refers to the packet and the other to the actions.

I interpreted =E2=80=9Cignore=E2=80=9D to mean =E2=80=9Cdon=E2=80=99t =
pay attention to them=E2=80=9D, in addition to =E2=80=9Cpreserved =
unmodified=E2=80=9D meaning =E2=80=9Cdon=E2=80=99t change them."

>=20
>>=20
>> Any comment on whether logging violate the "MUST NOT modify actions" =
requirement??
>>=20
>=20
> Sorry I thought I had commented on that.
>=20
> Logging would not violate that requirement because there is no logging =
that is based on the values of those bits. Basically, logging does not =
change the bits, and an SFP element does not decide to log or not based =
on the value of those bits.

I meant logging a warning that you received a packet with a non-zero =
value.

Thanks!

Ben.


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From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2017 18:58:09 -0400
Message-ID: <CAG4d1reOKjy339g0vuT0=nknJZexemo9qrX9hVMcUo3LCJaDrA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
Cc: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>,  "draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>,  "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" <sfc-chairs@ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [sfc] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-24: (with COMMENT)
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--001a114788665541e3055ae8c655
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Hi Ben,

On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 5:40 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:

> Hi, comments inline:
>
> > On Oct 3, 2017, at 11:33 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
> cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> -2.2, Next Protocol Values:
> >>>> Why are there 2 experimental values? (as opposed to 1, or, well, 3).
> >>>
> >>> No particular reason. One seems not enough potentially for creative
> experimentation.
> >>>
> >>> My favorite number is 27, but we felt that was too many :-)
> >>
> >> Okay :-)
> >>
> >
> > Given the field is an octet, we felt 2 was enough but not too many. 1
> seemed too small of a number. This also coincides with how Experimental
> values are reserved for other octet values. For example, RFC 4727, Sectio=
ns
> 2.3 and 3.3, and RFC 3692 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3692#section-2.=
1
> >
> >
> > Is there a particular reason why you ask?
>
> Only that I usually see either one value or a range of values marked
> =E2=80=9Cexperimental=E2=80=9D, so 2 seemed odd.


Bitter experience (reputedly since I don't have the example) talks of early
implementations that squat on the 1 experimental value - which then becomes
that first feature.
In routing, we encourage allocating a small number - to allow for better
flexibilty.

Regards,
Alia

--001a114788665541e3055ae8c655
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Ben,<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote">On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 5:40 PM, Ben Campbell <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum.com" target=3D"_blank">ben@nostrum.com</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi, comments inline:<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt; On Oct 3, 2017, at 11:33 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com">cpignata@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></span>=
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -2.2, Next Protocol Values:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Why are there 2 experimental values? (as opposed to 1, or,=
 well, 3).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; No particular reason. One seems not enough potentially for cre=
ative experimentation.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; My favorite number is 27, but we felt that was too many :-)<br=
>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Okay :-)<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Given the field is an octet, we felt 2 was enough but not too many. 1 =
seemed too small of a number. This also coincides with how Experimental val=
ues are reserved for other octet values. For example, RFC 4727, Sections 2.=
3 and 3.3, and RFC 3692 &lt;<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3692#=
section-2.1" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/ht=
ml/<wbr>rfc3692#section-2.1</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Is there a particular reason why you ask?<br>
<br>
</span>Only that I usually see either one value or a range of values marked=
 =E2=80=9Cexperimental=E2=80=9D, so 2 seemed odd.</blockquote><div><br></di=
v><div>Bitter experience (reputedly since I don&#39;t have the example) tal=
ks of early implementations that squat on the 1 experimental value - which =
then becomes that first feature.</div><div>In routing, we encourage allocat=
ing a small number - to allow for better flexibilty.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>Regards,</div><div>Alia=C2=A0<br></div></div></div></div>

--001a114788665541e3055ae8c655--


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From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [sfc] Benoit Claise's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-25: (with COMMENT)
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Hi Med,
> Hi Benoit,
>
> Please see inline.
>
> Cheers,
> Med
>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Benoit Claise
>> Envoyé : jeudi 28 septembre 2017 15:56
>> À : The IESG
>> Cc : j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org;
>> jmh@joelhalpern.com; sfc-chairs@ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org
>> Objet : [sfc] Benoit Claise's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-25: (with
>> COMMENT)
>>
>> Benoit Claise has entered the following ballot position for
>> draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-25: No Objection
>>
>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>
>>
>> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>
>>
>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh/
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> COMMENT:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> - Section 2.5.1., you might want to mention that no metadata are specified
>> at
>> this point in time.
> [Med] Aren't these mentions sufficient?
>
>     This specification does not make any assumption about Context Headers
>     that are mandatory-to-implement or those that are mandatory-to-
>     process.
Now that you stress it, maybe.
I was interested to understand whose responsibility it is to specify those.
Some such as:

    This specification does not make any assumption about Context Headers
    that are mandatory-to-implement or those that are mandatory-to-
    process. These considerations are deployment-specific.
    Those optional variable metadata specifications will be specified by xxx
    for ...

And then, is this for a new service, a new application, a new ...?
I don't know the right terminology.
>
> And
>
>     No initial values are assigned at the creation of the registry.
>
>   Indeed, "New IETF Assigned Optional Variable Length
>> Metadata Type Registry is specified in this doc., but empty
>>
>> - Section 2.3
>> OPS question: SPI must be unique per admin domain? Otherwise, you're
>> looking
>> for trouble, right? This would be typically addressed in an "Operational
>> Considerations" section. Where is my "Operational Considerations"
>> section...?
> [Med] Already covered in the SFC architecture (RFC 7665):
>
>     SFFs maintain the requisite SFP forwarding information.  SFP
>     forwarding information is associated with a service path identifier
>     that is used to uniquely identify an SFP.
I surely missed that when I reviewed the normative references before 
reviewing this document ..., as I always do ...
Any issue to repeat it here?

>
>> - Section 2.4
>> Fixed length metadata.
>>
>>     This specification does not make any assumptions about the content of
>>     the 16 byte Context Header that must be present when the MD Type
>>     field is set to 1, and does not describe the structure or meaning of
>>     the included metadata.
>>
>>     An SFC-aware SF MUST receive the data semantics first in order to
>>     process the data placed in the mandatory context field.  The data
>>     semantics include both the allocation schema and the meaning of the
>>     included data.
>>
>> I understand that the order of the metadata in the Fixed Length Context
>> Header
>> is important, right?
> [Med] The notion of order in the opaque 16-byte block does not make in this spec. How that block is structured is really out of scope.
This is a concept that I missed when reading this spec.
I might not be the only one...
>
>   Should it be mentioned?
>
> [Med] I don't think so.
>
>   I understand that the fixed
>> length
>> metadata are specific per service, and that's the reason why there is no
>> IANA
>> for fixed length. Should this be mentioned?
> [Med] The agreement in the WG is to publish documents specifying MD#1 as informational documents. IANA is not involved in this process, because there is no expected action with regards to MD#1 context headers.

Regards, Benoit
>
>> - if you publish a new version, change the order of these two paragraphs:
>>
>>     Unassigned bits: All other flag fields, marked U, are unassigned and
>>     available for future use, see Section 11.2.1.  Unassigned bits MUST
>>     be set to zero upon origination, and MUST be ignored and preserved
>>     unmodified by other NSH supporting elements.  At reception, all
>>     elements MUST NOT modify their actions based on these unknown bits.
>>
>>     Length: The total length, in 4-byte words, of the NSH including the
>>     Base Header, the Service Path Header, the Fixed Length Context Header
>>     or Variable Length Context Header(s).  The length MUST be 0x6 for MD
>>     Type equal to 0x1, and MUST be 0x2 or greater for MD Type equal to
>>     0x2.  The length of the NSH header MUST be an integer multiple of 4
>>     bytes, thus variable length metadata is always padded out to a
>>     multiple of 4 bytes.
>>
>> Lacking some time before the telechat, but not worth deferring (there are
>> enough DISCUSS'). FYI, I arrived at section 5.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sfc mailing list
>> sfc@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc
> .
>


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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com>
CC: Med Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" <sfc-chairs@ietf.org>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [sfc] Benoit Claise's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-25: (with COMMENT)
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--_000_1C78ADB80DA344F5BA4618C8F86527AEciscocom_--


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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org>, "jmh@joelhalpern.com" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" <sfc-chairs@ietf.org>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [sfc] Benoit Claise's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-25: (with COMMENT)
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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 13:58:42 +0000
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Subject: Re: [sfc] Benoit Claise's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-25: (with COMMENT)
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To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: "j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org>, "jmh@joelhalpern.com" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" <sfc-chairs@ietf.org>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
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From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 16:14:39 +0200
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Subject: Re: [sfc] Benoit Claise's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-25: (with COMMENT)
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X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 14:14:46 -0000

Fine with me

Regards, B.
> Hi Benoit,
>
> Please see inline.
>
> Thank you.
> Cheers,
> Med
>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
>> Envoyé : samedi 7 octobre 2017 11:27
>> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; The IESG
>> Cc : j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org;
>> jmh@joelhalpern.com; sfc-chairs@ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org
>> Objet : Re: [sfc] Benoit Claise's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-25:
>> (with COMMENT)
>>
>> Hi Med,
>>> Hi Benoit,
>>>
>>> Please see inline.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Med
>>>
>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>> De : sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Benoit Claise
>>>> Envoyé : jeudi 28 septembre 2017 15:56
>>>> À : The IESG
>>>> Cc : j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org;
>>>> jmh@joelhalpern.com; sfc-chairs@ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org
>>>> Objet : [sfc] Benoit Claise's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-25:
>> (with
>>>> COMMENT)
>>>>
>>>> Benoit Claise has entered the following ballot position for
>>>> draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-25: No Objection
>>>>
>>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>>>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>>>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-
>> criteria.html
>>>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> COMMENT:
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> - Section 2.5.1., you might want to mention that no metadata are
>> specified
>>>> at
>>>> this point in time.
>>> [Med] Aren't these mentions sufficient?
>>>
>>>      This specification does not make any assumption about Context
>> Headers
>>>      that are mandatory-to-implement or those that are mandatory-to-
>>>      process.
>> Now that you stress it, maybe.
>> I was interested to understand whose responsibility it is to specify
>> those.
>> Some such as:
>>
>>      This specification does not make any assumption about Context Headers
>>      that are mandatory-to-implement or those that are mandatory-to-
>>      process. These considerations are deployment-specific.
>>      Those optional variable metadata specifications will be specified by
>> xxx
>>      for ...
>>
> [Med] No surprise out there. Like any protocol extension, future documents will be developed to specify key context information.
>
>> And then, is this for a new service, a new application, a new ...?
> [Med] Future specifications that specify context TLVs will specify under which condition a given TLV can be used and so. These considerations are really out of scope of the NSH spec.
>
>> I don't know the right terminology.
>>> And
>>>
>>>      No initial values are assigned at the creation of the registry.
>>>
>>>    Indeed, "New IETF Assigned Optional Variable Length
>>>> Metadata Type Registry is specified in this doc., but empty
>>>>
>>>> - Section 2.3
>>>> OPS question: SPI must be unique per admin domain? Otherwise, you're
>>>> looking
>>>> for trouble, right? This would be typically addressed in an
>> "Operational
>>>> Considerations" section. Where is my "Operational Considerations"
>>>> section...?
>>> [Med] Already covered in the SFC architecture (RFC 7665):
>>>
>>>      SFFs maintain the requisite SFP forwarding information.  SFP
>>>      forwarding information is associated with a service path identifier
>>>      that is used to uniquely identify an SFP.
>> I surely missed that when I reviewed the normative references before
>> reviewing this document ..., as I always do ...
>> Any issue to repeat it here?
>>
> [Med] I do personally see it as redundant, but if you think this is important to implement the NSH spec, then it should be added.
>
>>>> - Section 2.4
>>>> Fixed length metadata.
>>>>
>>>>      This specification does not make any assumptions about the content
>> of
>>>>      the 16 byte Context Header that must be present when the MD Type
>>>>      field is set to 1, and does not describe the structure or meaning
>> of
>>>>      the included metadata.
>>>>
>>>>      An SFC-aware SF MUST receive the data semantics first in order to
>>>>      process the data placed in the mandatory context field.  The data
>>>>      semantics include both the allocation schema and the meaning of the
>>>>      included data.
>>>>
>>>> I understand that the order of the metadata in the Fixed Length Context
>>>> Header
>>>> is important, right?
>>> [Med] The notion of order in the opaque 16-byte block does not make in
>> this spec. How that block is structured is really out of scope.
>> This is a concept that I missed when reading this spec.
>> I might not be the only one...
> [Med] I hear you. Can you please indicate whether this text is not clear enough?
>
> ===
>     This specification does not make any assumptions about the content of
>     the 16 byte Context Header that must be present when the MD Type
>     field is set to 1, and does not describe the structure or meaning of
>     the included metadata.
> ====
>
>>>    Should it be mentioned?
>>>
>>> [Med] I don't think so.
>>>
>>>    I understand that the fixed
>>>> length
>>>> metadata are specific per service, and that's the reason why there is
>> no
>>>> IANA
>>>> for fixed length. Should this be mentioned?
>>> [Med] The agreement in the WG is to publish documents specifying MD#1 as
>> informational documents. IANA is not involved in this process, because
>> there is no expected action with regards to MD#1 context headers.
>>
>> Regards, Benoit
>>>> - if you publish a new version, change the order of these two
>> paragraphs:
>>>>      Unassigned bits: All other flag fields, marked U, are unassigned
>> and
>>>>      available for future use, see Section 11.2.1.  Unassigned bits MUST
>>>>      be set to zero upon origination, and MUST be ignored and preserved
>>>>      unmodified by other NSH supporting elements.  At reception, all
>>>>      elements MUST NOT modify their actions based on these unknown bits.
>>>>
>>>>      Length: The total length, in 4-byte words, of the NSH including the
>>>>      Base Header, the Service Path Header, the Fixed Length Context
>> Header
>>>>      or Variable Length Context Header(s).  The length MUST be 0x6 for
>> MD
>>>>      Type equal to 0x1, and MUST be 0x2 or greater for MD Type equal to
>>>>      0x2.  The length of the NSH header MUST be an integer multiple of 4
>>>>      bytes, thus variable length metadata is always padded out to a
>>>>      multiple of 4 bytes.
>>>>
>>>> Lacking some time before the telechat, but not worth deferring (there
>> are
>>>> enough DISCUSS'). FYI, I arrived at section 5.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> sfc mailing list
>>>> sfc@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc
>>> .
>>>


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Subject: [sfc] IPR Disclosure Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd's Statement about IPR related to RFC 7665
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Dear Joel M. Halpern, Carlos Pignataro:


An IPR disclosure that pertains to your RFC entitled "Service Function
Chaining (SFC) Architecture" (RFC7665) was submitted to the IETF
Secretariat on  and has been posted on the "IETF Page of Intellectual
Property Rights Disclosures" (https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3080/). The
title of the IPR disclosure is "Huawei Technologies Co.,Ltd's Statement
about IPR related to RFC 7665"


Thank you

IETF Secretariat


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Hi Carlos, hi all,

I will clear my discus now because the remaining point are more on the =
clarification side then warrant a discuss.

However, I would still like to further comment because I have to say =
that I find some comments still not appropriately addressed.=20

[snip]
>=20
>=20
> I am glad that now you understand the intention, and this issue is =
addressed.
>=20
> Thanks for the attempt at rewriting.
>=20
> That paragraph is balancing in quite a delicate equilibrium. It is, as =
you gathered, the result of long arduous WG discussions. Consequently I =
am most hesitant to make any changes to it.
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> =E2=80=9EBy default OAM support MUST be disabled. Therefore a =
SF/SFF/SFC Proxy/Classifier, that is not explicitly configured to =
support OAM, MUST discards packets with the O bit set. An implementation =
MAY provide a configurable parameter to enable the forwarding of =
received SFC OAM packets to the next element in the chain. If OAM =
support is enabled, OAM packets MUST be forwarded unmodified. Forwarding =
OAM packets by SFC elements that do not itself support SFC OAM =
procedures may be acceptable for a subset of OAM functions, but can =
result in unexpected outcomes for others; thus, it is recommended to =
analyze the impact of forwarding an OAM packet for all OAM functions =
prior to enabling this behavior.=E2=80=9C
>>=20
>> One part of my confusion was mixing up the fact that packet should =
not be send unmodified with the configuration to forward or not. =
Splitting that in a separate sentence as proposed above helps for my =
understanding a lot.

I still think the text in the draft is every unclear. I wouldn=E2=80=99t =
want to require you at all to use my proposed wording but I wanted to =
demonstrate with the proposed text what the unclear points are. The =
difference in my text is a) that is clearly says MUST if configured =
respectively (instead of using a very blurry SHOULD here). I guess the =
alternative could actually be to not use any normative language. And b) =
don=E2=80=99t mix up the fact that the data should not be changed with =
the fact that they should forwarded or not. I think that was the part =
where most of the confusing came from for me.=20

I understand that much discussion has happen about this. And I don=E2=80=99=
t propose to change the statements your make here. But marking an =
attempt to improve clarity, especially as this was so confusing that it =
even let to a discuss from my side, can never hurt!

[snip]

>> > "An SFC-aware SF or SF Proxy MUST receive the data semantics first =
in order to
>> > process the data placed in the mandatory context field.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> > And
>> >
>> > OLD:
>> > included data.  How an SFC-aware SF gets the data semantics is
>> > outside the scope of this specification.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> > NEW:
>> > included data.  How an SFC-aware SF or SFC Proxy gets the data =
semantics is
>> > outside the scope of this specification.=E2=80=9C
>>=20
>> The problem is, even if I have received some semantics how do I know =
that I have the right semantics?
>>=20
>> The control-plane would pass the semantic associated with the =
particular Service Function Path.

My question was not at all, how a node would receive the information. =
The question is how does the node know that these information actually =
fits to the ones provided in the packet, and can confirm that these =
information are not not outdated or provided wrongly. My thinking was =
that is would be much more error-save to provide information about the =
semantics in the packet itself. However, this is not the was the =
protocol was designed right now. Maybe it is still worth to provide =
further discussion on what to do if the semantics are not provided or do =
not match the expected data in the packet (e.g. data has different size, =
unexpected values -> these are at least cases that are easy to detect).

[snip]

>>=20
>> That=E2=80=99s fine in theory. In reality, especially e.g. for the =
web server case you need to make sure that all packets belonging to the =
same flow go to the same element. I thought it would actually be easier =
to use different SFPs such that only the Classifier must be flow-aware. =
If that=E2=80=99s not the case other nodes also need to be flow-aware =
and keep flow state. This must be mention in the document!
>>=20
>> The architecture is clear that the assignment of flows to particular =
Service Functions can happen at a variety of different points.  One of =
the motivations for carrying meta-data is to allow a classifier to =
insert information identifying a particular flow so that all its packets =
can be properly load-balanced to the same Service Function.  If the =
Classifier does this, then there is not a need for every load-balancing =
element to do reclassification.=20
>=20
> Again, what Alia said.
>=20
> I trust these are now clear for you now.

It was always clear but this seems just more complicated than needed. I =
still think it would be much cleaner and less error-prone if you just =
assign different paths for these cases; that would also save you a lot =
of the problems with two different TTL fields. However, I guess it much =
to late to change this now unfortunately.



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Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-26: No Objection

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm clearing my discuss now, however, I don't think all of my comments have
been adequately addressed. However, some points could be clarified such that
these open points do not warrant to hold a discuss anymore.

--------------------
Old discuss text:
--------------------
I have a couple of comments on the design. I know, as always in IESG review
state, it's probably too late to make any changes to the actual header format,
therefore most of my comments are actually in the comment section below. I
still decided to note them so at least people can consider these points.
However, there are a few things that I need clarification for before
publication, which I note in this section:

1) Sec 2.2
"SF/SFF/SFC Proxy/Classifier implementations that do not support SFC
   OAM procedures SHOULD discard packets with O bit set, but MAY support
   a configurable parameter to enable forwarding received SFC OAM
   packets unmodified to the next element in the chain.  Forwarding OAM
   packets unmodified by SFC elements that do not support SFC OAM
   procedures may be acceptable for a subset of OAM functions, but can
   result in unexpected outcomes for others; thus, it is recommended to
   analyze the impact of forwarding an OAM packet for all OAM functions
   prior to enabling this behavior.  The configurable parameter MUST be
   disabled by default."
This part is really unclear to me and I believe needs to be further specified.
Where should this configurable parameter be? In the Context header? Why don't
you just use one of the unassigned bit to indicate if an unknown (OAM) packet
should be forwarded or not? Moreover, I also disagree with this text. If there
is a bit/a way to indicate if a not supported OAM packet should be forwarded or
not, it should just be defined like this, while any considerations if that bit
should be set or not depend on the OAM function itself and do not need to be
discussed here. Finally, it is not well explained what an OAM packet is at all.
Is that a 'fake' packet that is generated by the operator to actively test the
(potentially newly configured) SFP? If so, why does a SF need to know if a
packet is an OAM packet or not? Usually it's a bad idea to use different kind
of traffic for testing compared to what will be used in operations. Please
provide more explanation here!

2) section 2.4
"An SFC-aware SF MUST receive the data semantics first in order to
   process the data placed in the mandatory context field.  The data
   semantics include both the allocation schema and the meaning of the
   included data.  How an SFC-aware SF gets the data semantics is
   outside the scope of this specification."
This is really confusing to me. I think this is what you need an actually data
semantics aka type field for in the base header. Or is there an actual reason
to not put this information directly in the base header where it is need but
instead assuming some magical way this information may take to reach the node?
If the assumption is that the SF is configured to know based of the SFI what
the content of the context header has to be, you a) need to say that in the
draft, and b) that's really error-prone because it's really hard to tell if the
conext header actually holds the information that you need or just random crap
(of course depending of the expected data type of this information). In short,
I think you really need a type field somewhere here. In any case, you really
need to explain this more! Also, the text further says: "An SF or SFC Proxy
that does not know the format or semantics of the
   Context Header for an NSH with MD Type 1 MUST discard any packet with
   such an NSH..."
How does the SFC proxy know that it knows the format or not if there is no type
field or identifier that indicates what the format should be?

Also, a related question from me: why is the context header present in all
types of NSH if there is no use for it defined in this document yet? Why is
there no fixed length NSH without a context header then?

3) Section 2.5.1:
"If multiple instances of the same metadata are included in an NSH
   packet, but the definition of that context header does not allow for
   it, the SFC-aware SF MUST process the first instance and ignore
   subsequent instances."
This seems error prone to me. If the same metadata appears multiple where it
should not, that seems clearly like an error case for me. Just using the first
one and proceed normally might not be the right thing to do. In any case I
think such an occasion should at least be logged. If the multiple instances are
just a copy of each other and carry the same information, it's probably okay to
use that information and proceed. If the different instances carry different
information, it maybe a bit dangerous to just use the first one and ignore
others silently. In this case I would rather recommend to drop the packet...

4) In line with the second comment from the tsv-art review (thanks Wes!), I
don't really understand why this documents says (sec 6) that there can be
multiple next hops for the same SFP or SFs can be traversed in a different
order. May understanding (from a quick look at RFC7665) would be that, if those
things are needed e.g. for load balancing, then one should define different
SFPs and the Classifier must have the knowledge that two SFP are equivalent and
select them respectively. The reason why I'm really concerned about this is
that usually a number of packets below to a flow and all packets belonging to
the same flow just ideally take the same route. But usually only the Classifier
has a notion of what a flow is and respectively will assign the SFI to the
packets belonging to the same flow. If now any SF on the path can more or less
randomly decided to forward packet belong to the same flow to one or another
next nodes, I would assume that this is not only a problem for the flow, e.g.
reordering, but also for SF itself in many cases.

------------------------
Old comment text:
------------------------

Further considerations:

1) I don't really see why a TTL in the base header is needed. I mostly
understand why there is the Service Index in service header, also I think there
should be better mean to validate that you SFP is correct and I ideally you
should really not need this. However, loop prevention can be provided by both
mechanism and moreover there is probably also often a TTL in the encapsulation
protocol and loop prevention should really be a function of that forwarding
protocol and not the NSH.

2) I don't see why you need the type field in the base header. This is fully
redundant because because all you need is the length field. If the length is
0x2 it is what you have defined as type 1 if the length field is larger it is
type 2. I also don't see the need for any other types in future because you
also have the version field; if you need anything else you should go or
probably have to go for a new version. Note that the general probably with
unnecessary redundancy is that is add complexity. If you keep this redundancy
you have to separately handle and implement the case(s) where the type is 1 but
the length is larger than expected. If at all you could probably just use one
bit to indicate that the length field is present and if not the length is 0x2.
However, saving bits does not really seem to be a concern for you, so that
might not actually be an advantage.

3) sec 2.5.1
"Unassigned bit: One unassigned bit is available for future use.  This
   bit MUST NOT be set, and MUST be ignored on receipt."
Is there an actual reason to have an unassigned bit here? Because I would
assume that the type already provided enough flexibility for way to extend the
metadata format in any way needed.

4) Also section 2.5.1:
"   Length: Indicates the length of the variable metadata, in bytes.  In
   case the metadata length is not an integer number of 4-byte words,
   the sender MUST add pad bytes immediately following the last metadata
   byte to extend the metadata to an integer number of 4-byte words.
   The receiver MUST round up the length field to the nearest 4-byte
   word boundary, to locate and process the next field in the packet."
Your definition of the length field might be more error-prone than needed. It
would probably be easier to simply define the length as 4-byte words, and the 
type of course defines the content of the metadata field and as such can simply
define which part of the total metadata field holds certain data of a certain
type and with part is padding.

5) And finally I have to say it is unclear to me why the SFI and SI field are
described as a separate header. Given they have to be present in all SFH, I
would consider them as two fields of the base header. But it is after all
really just an editorial issue. However, all this together with my previous
comments makes the protocol spec actually much more complicated than it needs
to be...

6) I also have to agree to the last comment of the tsv-art review: I think it
would have been nicer to not only described the NSH but also define mappings to
a set of possible encapsulations because I would assume that for each
encapsulation there are a couple specific considerations that need to be made
to make things work successfully. I don't think that all encapsulations can be
captured by general consideration and I cannot make up my mind to go through
all cases in my head to figure out if there are things that needs to be noted.



From nobody Mon Oct 16 07:23:17 2017
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Med Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
CC: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org>, "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" <sfc-chairs@ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [sfc] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-24: (with COMMENT) - Encrypted content
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 14:22:51 +0000
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Subject: Re: [sfc] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-24: (with COMMENT) - Encrypted content
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Kathleen Moriarty <Kathleen.Moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" <sfc-chairs@ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-24: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
Thread-Index: AQHTOAYHYSdlQhRLx0q1fm9NlsjUoKLKl8uAgAACZ4CAHG8mAA==
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 16:24:04 +0000
Message-ID: <C748AD71-49BE-46B6-A3A8-41C5FCCA1E79@cisco.com>
References: <150656766105.13740.10127057899137745873.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <C96EE451-C7F2-495B-A60E-EE68252AFFB7@cisco.com> <CAHbuEH6Bmkxi4uuANaKXCSPfmp9mXUpWuPLrqRNWgLHJWTgAzQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [sfc] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-24: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 09:27:17 -0700
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To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
Cc: Kathleen Moriarty <Kathleen.Moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>,  "draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>,  "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" <sfc-chairs@ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [sfc] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-24: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 9:24 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:

> Many thanks for the continued dialogue, Kathleen!!!
>
> Kathleen, Eric,
>
> Just a heads up that we are almost finished with a proposal for the
> Security Considerations that we are targeting to address the concerns. Mo=
re
> soon, and while we look forward to your comments on that proposal, in the
> mean time:
>
> Eric, we have not heard from you on any of the two messages we sent
> addressed to you.
>

Yeah, these got back-burnered because I had understood you were going to
make substantive changes to actually add an integrity feature and I was
intending to review the draft at that time. Is your plan not to do that?

-Ekr


> Kathleen, one comment and one question inline.
>
> > Kathleen Moriarty <Kathleen.Moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > While
> > the expressions EKR includes below are not directly in the draft, this
> > is how we read it,
>
> This statement seems to characterize the review / reviewers, more than th=
e
> document itself.
>
> >   If MPLS is used similarly instead, yes, it
> > will have the same issues, but you also won't have a secure option if
> > this is done with the same security (or lack thereof) as MPLS.
>
> I am not sure I fully understand the source, provenance, and implications
> of this comment. I do not recall MPLS being discussed before in the conte=
xt
> of this document.
>
> RFC 7365 describes the use of both MPLS and IP in Data Center (DC) Networ=
k
> Virtualization. Today, some of these packets flow already in existing DCs=
,
> and service chaining exists in those DCs. Is there some additional
> requirement for DC data planes, or for NVO3, that is not captured elsewhe=
re?
>
> More importantly: a corollary of what you are saying is that, providing a
> security option underneath in the tunneling adds to the overall security
> posture, and that MPLS is different than IP in this context. Does that
> capture your intent?
>
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Kathleen
>
> Best,
>
> =E2=80=94 Carlos P.
>
>

--f4030435b01042448f055bac7dc7
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 9:24 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">cpigna=
ta@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Many t=
hanks for the continued dialogue, Kathleen!!!<br>
<br>
Kathleen, Eric,<br>
<br>
Just a heads up that we are almost finished with a proposal for the Securit=
y Considerations that we are targeting to address the concerns. More soon, =
and while we look forward to your comments on that proposal, in the mean ti=
me:<br>
<br>
Eric, we have not heard from you on any of the two messages we sent address=
ed to you.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yeah, these got back-burnere=
d because I had understood you were going to make substantive changes to ac=
tually add an integrity feature and I was intending to review the draft at =
that time. Is your plan not to do that?</div><div><br></div><div>-Ekr<br></=
div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Kathleen, one comment and one question inline.<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt; Kathleen Moriarty &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Kathleen.Moriarty.ietf@gmail.c=
om">Kathleen.Moriarty.ietf@gmail.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; While<br>
&gt; the expressions EKR includes below are not directly in the draft, this=
<br>
&gt; is how we read it,<br>
<br>
</span>This statement seems to characterize the review / reviewers, more th=
an the document itself.<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0If MPLS is used similarly instead, yes, it<br>
&gt; will have the same issues, but you also won&#39;t have a secure option=
 if<br>
&gt; this is done with the same security (or lack thereof) as MPLS.<br>
<br>
</span>I am not sure I fully understand the source, provenance, and implica=
tions of this comment. I do not recall MPLS being discussed before in the c=
ontext of this document.<br>
<br>
RFC 7365 describes the use of both MPLS and IP in Data Center (DC) Network =
Virtualization. Today, some of these packets flow already in existing DCs, =
and service chaining exists in those DCs. Is there some additional requirem=
ent for DC data planes, or for NVO3, that is not captured elsewhere?<br>
<br>
More importantly: a corollary of what you are saying is that, providing a s=
ecurity option underneath in the tunneling adds to the overall security pos=
ture, and that MPLS is different than IP in this context. Does that capture=
 your intent?<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Best regards,<br>
&gt; Kathleen<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
=E2=80=94 Carlos P.<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--f4030435b01042448f055bac7dc7--


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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
CC: Kathleen Moriarty <Kathleen.Moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, "draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" <sfc-chairs@ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-24: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 17:12:30 +0000
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Subject: Re: [sfc] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-24: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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--_000_B97FF12913D247A08E8BE90033961D17ciscocom_--


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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 10:16:31 -0700
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To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
Cc: Kathleen Moriarty <Kathleen.Moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>,  "draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>,  "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" <sfc-chairs@ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [sfc] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-24: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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--94eb2c0790265e94bc055bad2d28
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:

>
> On Oct 16, 2017, at 12:27 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 9:24 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
> cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>> Many thanks for the continued dialogue, Kathleen!!!
>>
>> Kathleen, Eric,
>>
>> Just a heads up that we are almost finished with a proposal for the
>> Security Considerations that we are targeting to address the concerns. M=
ore
>> soon, and while we look forward to your comments on that proposal, in th=
e
>> mean time:
>>
>> Eric, we have not heard from you on any of the two messages we sent
>> addressed to you.
>>
>
> Yeah, these got back-burnered
>
>
> We understand this DISCUSSion happens through dialogue =E2=80=94 not gues=
sing or
> mandate.
>
> because I had understood you were going to make substantive changes to
> actually add an integrity feature
>
>
> Sorry if we were not clear.
>
> We are indeed working on changes, some potentially substantive =E2=80=94 =
but
> somehow I missed this: can you please point me to the record where there=
=E2=80=99s
> a decision or discussion to =E2=80=9Cadd an integrity feature=E2=80=9D?
>

That was my take-home from the telechat where this was discussed, but maybe
Alia would like to say what her understanding was.

-Ekr


> We are working through a more thorough threat analysis and describing the
> implications and solutions for each of those cases.
>
> and I was intending to review the draft at that time. Is your plan not to
> do that?
>
>
> We would have liked to have responses to our comments or questions,
> discussion via dialogue, to incorporate in the updates and potentially
> substantive set of changes. The plan is (now) provide a textual proposal.
>
> That said, sure: you can review the forthcoming set of changes.
>
> =E2=80=94 Carlos.
>
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>> Kathleen, one comment and one question inline.
>>
>> > Kathleen Moriarty <Kathleen.Moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > While
>> > the expressions EKR includes below are not directly in the draft, this
>> > is how we read it,
>>
>> This statement seems to characterize the review / reviewers, more than
>> the document itself.
>>
>> >   If MPLS is used similarly instead, yes, it
>> > will have the same issues, but you also won't have a secure option if
>> > this is done with the same security (or lack thereof) as MPLS.
>>
>> I am not sure I fully understand the source, provenance, and implication=
s
>> of this comment. I do not recall MPLS being discussed before in the cont=
ext
>> of this document.
>>
>> RFC 7365 describes the use of both MPLS and IP in Data Center (DC)
>> Network Virtualization. Today, some of these packets flow already in
>> existing DCs, and service chaining exists in those DCs. Is there some
>> additional requirement for DC data planes, or for NVO3, that is not
>> captured elsewhere?
>>
>> More importantly: a corollary of what you are saying is that, providing =
a
>> security option underneath in the tunneling adds to the overall security
>> posture, and that MPLS is different than IP in this context. Does that
>> capture your intent?
>>
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> > Kathleen
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> =E2=80=94 Carlos P.
>>
>>
>
>

--94eb2c0790265e94bc055bad2d28
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">cpigna=
ta@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Oct 16, 2017, at 12:27 PM, Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@=
rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"m_-2847914553679195211Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 9:24 AM, Carlos Pignatar=
o (cpignata)
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">cpignata@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Many thanks for the continued dialogue, Kathleen!!!<br>
<br>
Kathleen, Eric,<br>
<br>
Just a heads up that we are almost finished with a proposal for the Securit=
y Considerations that we are targeting to address the concerns. More soon, =
and while we look forward to your comments on that proposal, in the mean ti=
me:<br>
<br>
Eric, we have not heard from you on any of the two messages we sent address=
ed to you.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yeah, these got back-burnered </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span><div>We understand this DISCUSSion happens through dialogue =E2=80=
=94 not guessing or mandate.</div><span class=3D"">
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>because I had understood you were going to make substantive changes to=
 actually add an integrity feature</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span><div>Sorry if we were not clear.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We are indeed working on changes, some potentially substantive =E2=80=
=94 but somehow I missed this: can you please point me to the record where =
there=E2=80=99s a decision or discussion to =E2=80=9Cadd an integrity featu=
re=E2=80=9D?=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That w=
as my take-home from the telechat where this was discussed, but maybe Alia =
would like to say what her understanding was.</div><div><br></div><div>-Ekr=
</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap=
:break-word"><div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We are working through a more thorough threat analysis and describing =
the implications and solutions for each of those cases.=C2=A0</div><span cl=
ass=3D"">
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>and I was intending to review the draft at that time. Is your plan not=
 to do that?</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span><div>We would have liked to have responses to our comments or questi=
ons, discussion via dialogue, to incorporate in the updates and potentially=
 substantive set of changes. The plan is (now) provide a textual proposal.<=
/div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That said, sure: you can review the forthcoming set of changes.</div><=
span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=E2=80=94 Carlos.</div></font></span><span class=3D"">
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-Ekr<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Kathleen, one comment and one question inline.<br>
<span><br>
&gt; Kathleen Moriarty &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Kathleen.Moriarty.ietf@gmail.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">Kathleen.Moriarty.ietf@gmail.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; While<br>
&gt; the expressions EKR includes below are not directly in the draft, this=
<br>
&gt; is how we read it,<br>
<br>
</span>This statement seems to characterize the review / reviewers, more th=
an the document itself.<br>
<span><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0If MPLS is used similarly instead, yes, it<br>
&gt; will have the same issues, but you also won&#39;t have a secure option=
 if<br>
&gt; this is done with the same security (or lack thereof) as MPLS.<br>
<br>
</span>I am not sure I fully understand the source, provenance, and implica=
tions of this comment. I do not recall MPLS being discussed before in the c=
ontext of this document.<br>
<br>
RFC 7365 describes the use of both MPLS and IP in Data Center (DC) Network =
Virtualization. Today, some of these packets flow already in existing DCs, =
and service chaining exists in those DCs. Is there some additional requirem=
ent for DC data planes, or for NVO3,
 that is not captured elsewhere?<br>
<br>
More importantly: a corollary of what you are saying is that, providing a s=
ecurity option underneath in the tunneling adds to the overall security pos=
ture, and that MPLS is different than IP in this context. Does that capture=
 your intent?<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Best regards,<br>
&gt; Kathleen<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
=E2=80=94 Carlos P.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span></div>
<br>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--94eb2c0790265e94bc055bad2d28--


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To: "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Cc: Tal Mizrahi <talmi@marvell.com>, James N Guichard <james.n.guichard@huawei.com>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 11:32:59 -0400
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Subject: [sfc] SFC Meeting work items
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While we continue working on getting NSH published, we do have an 
upcoming IETF meeting where we have a working group session scheduled.
Please let us know if you would like agenda time.
Please copy Tal on your request so he can help us make sure we track 
properly.

Thank you,
Joel


From nobody Thu Oct 19 01:49:24 2017
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)" <akatlas@gmail.com>
CC: "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: NSH DISCUSS Status
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Hi Alia,

Can you please share with us the current status of the document and the lis=
t of pending blocking points?

I went through all public email exchanges, especially the ones related to s=
ecurity, but it is not that easy to understand what are the remaining issue=
s that need fixes.

In particular, is there a concern with assuming the current NSH threat mode=
l?


1.  NSH is secure against attacks induced by nodes that inject (spoofed) NS=
H before entering an SFC-enabled domain. Indeed, SFC ingress nodes MUST dis=
card packets carrying NSH.

2.  NSH is secure against attacks from within the SFC-enabled domain to inj=
ect non-authorized context headers. From a service perspective, the guard i=
s the CP which is responsible for instructing the SFC-aware nodes about the=
 mandatory-to-process and optional-to-process context headers. Furthermore,=
 whatever the origin of a supplied context header, the last SFF of a chain =
(and egress nodes) MUST remove the NSH before forwarding upstream.

3.  NSH is secure against leaking privacy information outside an SFC enable=
d domain. The last SFF of a chain (and egress nodes) MUST remove the NSH be=
fore forwarding upstream.

4.  NSH is secure against indefinite SF/SFF loops by means of SI and TTL fi=
elds.

5.  Control plane specific threats are out of scope, but the document cites=
 I-D.ietf-sfc-control-plane for the expected behavior when instructing SFC =
nodes. BTW, the secdir review of the CP requirements can be retrieved here =
(https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-sfc-control-plane-02-secdir-e=
arly-meadows-2015-12-10/).

6.  NSH does not share privacy data with non-authorized parties. Indeed, da=
ta carried in context headers are derived from the original packet (e.g., s=
ource IP address) or are already known to the operator (e.g., subscriber id=
entifier, policy identifier, service identifier). The context information i=
s shared with nodes that are within the same administrative domain.

7.  Like other communication protocols, attacks from within the network are=
 possible, but those are soften by relying on the procedures put in place b=
y operators for testing and validating nodes/features before actual activat=
ion. NSH does not provide a built-in feature to prevent misbehaving nodes, =
but recommends to rely on the security features provided by the underlying =
transport encapsulation schemes.

Let's now focus on the typical "attacks" that can be issued from within the=
 network:

1.  A misbehaving node redirect the traffic to non-authorized nodes outside=
 a domain: This is not NSH-specific.

2.  A misbehaving SFC-unware node alters the content of a packet: This is n=
ot NSH-specific.

3.  A misbehaving SFC-aware node alters the content of NSH:

            i.     It removes the NSH header from all packets it sees: This=
 will imply that the packets, the misbehaving node intercepts, will be forw=
arded upstream without invoking the required SFs (which may be seen as a fe=
ature, not a bug if one dislikes "middleboxes" :)). More seriously, the OAM=
 NSH feature will allow an operator to detect whether NSH packets are trave=
lling in accordance with SFC instructions of that domain. Running that feat=
ure will help detecting the misbehaving node.

          ii.     It modifies the content of SPI: This will imply that thes=
e packets will be forwarded over a wrong path. Again, running OAM NSH will =
allow the operator to detect whether a packet is travelling in accordance w=
ith SFC instructions. Running that feature regularly will help identifying =
the misbehaving node and whether the SFC configuration of a domain is align=
ed with the expected behavior.

        iii.     It modifies the content of SI/TTL: This will increase the =
authorized maximum SFF/SF hops. Not sure if there is a security problem out=
 there.

          iv.     The misbehaving node is a classifier: The implications wi=
ll be severe from a service standpoint. NSH relies on OAM and control-plane=
 to detect such case.

            v.     The misbehaving node is an SFF: Examples of misbehaviors=
 are: strip NSH, forward to a non-authorized SF, redirect the traffic to a =
non-authorized nodes, etc. Like for the classifier case, NSH relies on OAM =
and control-plane to detect such case.

Are there specific attacks that are not listed above and that need more att=
ention from the WG?

Thank you.

Cheers,
Med

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<body lang=3D"FR" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Hi Alia,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Can you please share with us the current st=
atus of the document and the list of pending blocking points?<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I went through all public email exchanges, =
especially the ones related to security, but it is not that easy to underst=
and what are the remaining issues that need fixes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">In particular, is there a concern with assu=
ming the current NSH threat model?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">1.<s=
pan style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">NSH is secure against attacks induc=
ed by nodes that inject (spoofed) NSH before entering an SFC-enabled domain=
. Indeed, SFC ingress nodes MUST discard packets
 carrying NSH.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">2.<s=
pan style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">NSH is secure against attacks from =
within the SFC-enabled domain to inject non-authorized context headers. Fro=
m a service perspective, the guard is the CP which
 is responsible for instructing the SFC-aware nodes about the mandatory-to-=
process and optional-to-process context headers. Furthermore, whatever the =
origin of a supplied context header, the last SFF of a chain (and egress no=
des) MUST remove the NSH before
 forwarding upstream.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">3.<s=
pan style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">NSH is secure against leaking priva=
cy information outside an SFC enabled domain. The last SFF of a chain (and =
egress nodes) MUST remove the NSH before forwarding
 upstream.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">4.<s=
pan style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">NSH is secure against indefinite SF=
/SFF loops by means of SI and TTL fields.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">5.<s=
pan style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Control plane specific threats are =
out of scope, but the document cites I-D.ietf-sfc-control-plane for the exp=
ected behavior when instructing SFC nodes. BTW,
 the secdir review of the CP requirements can be retrieved here (<a href=3D=
"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-sfc-control-plane-02-secdir-e=
arly-meadows-2015-12-10/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-sfc-=
control-plane-02-secdir-early-meadows-2015-12-10/</a>).
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">6.<s=
pan style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">NSH does not share privacy data wit=
h non-authorized parties. Indeed, data carried in context headers are deriv=
ed from the original packet (e.g., source IP address)
 or are already known to the operator (e.g., subscriber identifier, policy =
identifier, service identifier). The context information is shared with nod=
es that are within the same administrative domain. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">7.<s=
pan style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Like other communication protocols,=
 attacks from within the network are possible, but those are soften by rely=
ing on the procedures put in place by operators
 for testing and validating nodes/features before actual activation. NSH do=
es not provide a built-in feature to prevent misbehaving nodes, but recomme=
nds to rely on the security features provided by the underlying transport e=
ncapsulation schemes.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Let&#8217;s now focus on the typical &#8220=
;attacks&#8221; that can be issued from within the network:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 leve=
l1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">1.<s=
pan style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">A misbehaving node redirect the tra=
ffic to non-authorized nodes outside a domain: This is not NSH-specific.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 leve=
l1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">2.<s=
pan style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">A misbehaving SFC-unware node alter=
s the content of a packet: This is not NSH-specific.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 leve=
l1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">3.<s=
pan style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">A misbehaving SFC-aware node alters=
 the content of NSH:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-72.0=
pt;mso-text-indent-alt:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore"><span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>i.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">It removes the NSH he=
ader from all packets it sees: This will imply that the packets, the misbeh=
aving
 node intercepts, will be forwarded upstream without invoking the required =
SFs (which may be seen as a feature, not a bug if one dislikes &#8220;middl=
eboxes&#8221; :)). More seriously, the OAM NSH feature will allow an operat=
or to detect whether NSH packets are travelling
 in accordance with SFC instructions of that domain. Running that feature w=
ill help detecting the misbehaving node.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-72.0=
pt;mso-text-indent-alt:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore"><span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>ii.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D=
"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">It modifies the cont=
ent of SPI: This will imply that these packets will be forwarded over a wro=
ng
 path. Again, running OAM NSH will allow the operator to detect whether a p=
acket is travelling in accordance with SFC instructions. Running that featu=
re regularly will help identifying the misbehaving node and whether the SFC=
 configuration of a domain is aligned
 with the expected behavior.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-72.0=
pt;mso-text-indent-alt:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore"><span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>iii.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">It modifies the c=
ontent of SI/TTL: This will increase the authorized maximum SFF/SF hops. No=
t sure
 if there is a security problem out there. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-72.0=
pt;mso-text-indent-alt:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore"><span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>iv.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D=
"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">The misbehaving node=
 is a classifier: The implications will be severe from a service standpoint=
. NSH
 relies on OAM and control-plane to detect such case. &nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-72.0=
pt;mso-text-indent-alt:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore"><span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>v.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">The misbehaving node =
is an SFF: Examples of misbehaviors are: strip NSH, forward to a non-author=
ized
 SF, redirect the traffic to a non-authorized nodes, etc. Like for the clas=
sifier case, NSH relies on OAM and control-plane to detect such case. &nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Are there specific attacks that are not lis=
ted above and that need more attention from the WG?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Med<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
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--_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300A056E39OPEXCLILMA3corp_--


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From: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" <paulq@cisco.com>
To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
CC: "Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)" <akatlas@gmail.com>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
Thread-Index: AdNItx9sdKdz8ojQTU2+zkDzM6Au0wAdE8SA
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 17:41:44 +0000
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Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
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From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 14:49:52 -0400
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To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>,  Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
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Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
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Hi Med,

Since you directed this at me, there are efforts to have some discussions
and understand better the particular threats.
Currently, there is no transport with integrity protection that is even a
SHOULD to implement, much less a MUST.  There
is no control-plane defined (beyond the BGP work) that describes detecting
issues.  There is no OAM defined and adopted
by the WG that detects or handles these types of attacks. I see the
structure that you are presuming, but none of these are
available as normative references to NSH today.

I had recommended having a focused interim meeting to make sure that
everyone concerned understood the issues and
worked through the threat analysis and possible solutions together. At this
point, clearly the most that could happen is a
virtual interim.  There are some background discussions going on.

I do not want to assume what mixture will be acceptable to handle the
security concerns expressed by Kathleen and Eric
and supported by a number of other ADs.

I do greatly appreciate your attention and efforts to clarify and try to
move this work forward. I have been expressing concerns
about the security aspects of this work since RFC 7665 went through the
publication process - and strongly encouraging serious
WG focus to prevent precisely what has now happened.

Regards,
Alia


On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 4:49 AM, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:

> Hi Alia,
>
>
>
> Can you please share with us the current status of the document and the
> list of pending blocking points?
>
>
>
> I went through all public email exchanges, especially the ones related to
> security, but it is not that easy to understand what are the remaining
> issues that need fixes.
>
>
>
> In particular, is there a concern with assuming the current NSH threat
> model?
>
>
>
> 1.  NSH is secure against attacks induced by nodes that inject (spoofed)
> NSH before entering an SFC-enabled domain. Indeed, SFC ingress nodes MUST
> discard packets carrying NSH.
>
> 2.  NSH is secure against attacks from within the SFC-enabled domain to
> inject non-authorized context headers. From a service perspective, the
> guard is the CP which is responsible for instructing the SFC-aware nodes
> about the mandatory-to-process and optional-to-process context headers.
> Furthermore, whatever the origin of a supplied context header, the last S=
FF
> of a chain (and egress nodes) MUST remove the NSH before forwarding
> upstream.
>
> 3.  NSH is secure against leaking privacy information outside an SFC
> enabled domain. The last SFF of a chain (and egress nodes) MUST remove th=
e
> NSH before forwarding upstream.
>
> 4.  NSH is secure against indefinite SF/SFF loops by means of SI and TTL
> fields.
>
> 5.  Control plane specific threats are out of scope, but the document
> cites I-D.ietf-sfc-control-plane for the expected behavior when instructi=
ng
> SFC nodes. BTW, the secdir review of the CP requirements can be retrieved
> here (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-sfc-control-
> plane-02-secdir-early-meadows-2015-12-10/).
>
> 6.  NSH does not share privacy data with non-authorized parties. Indeed,
> data carried in context headers are derived from the original packet (e.g=
.,
> source IP address) or are already known to the operator (e.g., subscriber
> identifier, policy identifier, service identifier). The context informati=
on
> is shared with nodes that are within the same administrative domain.
>
> 7.  Like other communication protocols, attacks from within the network
> are possible, but those are soften by relying on the procedures put in
> place by operators for testing and validating nodes/features before actua=
l
> activation. NSH does not provide a built-in feature to prevent misbehavin=
g
> nodes, but recommends to rely on the security features provided by the
> underlying transport encapsulation schemes.
>
>
>
> Let=E2=80=99s now focus on the typical =E2=80=9Cattacks=E2=80=9D that can=
 be issued from within
> the network:
>
> 1.  A misbehaving node redirect the traffic to non-authorized nodes
> outside a domain: This is not NSH-specific.
>
> 2.  A misbehaving SFC-unware node alters the content of a packet: This is
> not NSH-specific.
>
> 3.  A misbehaving SFC-aware node alters the content of NSH:
>
>             i.     It removes the NSH header from all packets it sees:
> This will imply that the packets, the misbehaving node intercepts, will b=
e
> forwarded upstream without invoking the required SFs (which may be seen a=
s
> a feature, not a bug if one dislikes =E2=80=9Cmiddleboxes=E2=80=9D :)). M=
ore seriously, the
> OAM NSH feature will allow an operator to detect whether NSH packets are
> travelling in accordance with SFC instructions of that domain. Running th=
at
> feature will help detecting the misbehaving node.
>
>           ii.     It modifies the content of SPI: This will imply that
> these packets will be forwarded over a wrong path. Again, running OAM NSH
> will allow the operator to detect whether a packet is travelling in
> accordance with SFC instructions. Running that feature regularly will hel=
p
> identifying the misbehaving node and whether the SFC configuration of a
> domain is aligned with the expected behavior.
>
>         iii.     It modifies the content of SI/TTL: This will increase
> the authorized maximum SFF/SF hops. Not sure if there is a security probl=
em
> out there.
>
>           iv.     The misbehaving node is a classifier: The implications
> will be severe from a service standpoint. NSH relies on OAM and
> control-plane to detect such case.
>
>             v.     The misbehaving node is an SFF: Examples of
> misbehaviors are: strip NSH, forward to a non-authorized SF, redirect the
> traffic to a non-authorized nodes, etc. Like for the classifier case, NSH
> relies on OAM and control-plane to detect such case.
>
>
>
> Are there specific attacks that are not listed above and that need more
> attention from the WG?
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Med
>

--001a114699dc598d13055bead257
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Med,<div><br></div><div>Since you directed this at me, =
there are efforts to have some discussions and understand better the partic=
ular threats.</div><div>Currently, there is no transport with integrity pro=
tection that is even a SHOULD to implement, much less a MUST.=C2=A0 There</=
div><div>is no control-plane defined (beyond the BGP work) that describes d=
etecting issues.=C2=A0 There is no OAM defined and adopted</div><div>by the=
 WG that detects or handles these types of attacks. I see the structure tha=
t you are presuming, but none of these are</div><div>available as normative=
 references to NSH today.</div><div><br></div><div>I had recommended having=
 a focused interim meeting to make sure that everyone concerned understood =
the issues and</div><div>worked through the threat analysis and possible so=
lutions together. At this point, clearly the most that could happen is a</d=
iv><div>virtual interim.=C2=A0 There are some background discussions going =
on.</div><div><br></div><div>I do not want to assume what mixture will be a=
cceptable to handle the security concerns expressed by Kathleen and Eric</d=
iv><div>and supported by a number of other ADs.<br><div class=3D"gmail_extr=
a"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">I do greatly appreciate your attent=
ion and efforts to clarify and try to move this work forward. I have been e=
xpressing concerns</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">about the security aspec=
ts of this work since RFC 7665 went through the publication process - and s=
trongly encouraging serious</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">WG focus to pre=
vent precisely what has now happened.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Regards,</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Al=
ia</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 4:49 AM,  <span dir=3D"=
ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">=
mohamed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"FR">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-1369485380969758675WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;">Hi Alia,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Can you please share with us the current stat=
us of the document and the list of pending blocking points?<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I went through all public email exchanges, es=
pecially the ones related to security, but it is not that easy to understan=
d what are the remaining issues that need fixes.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">In particular, is there a concern with assumi=
ng the current NSH threat model?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><sp=
an>1.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:norma=
l;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">NSH is secure against attacks induced by=
 nodes that inject (spoofed) NSH before entering an SFC-enabled domain. Ind=
eed, SFC ingress nodes MUST discard packets
 carrying NSH.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><sp=
an>2.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:norma=
l;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">NSH is secure against attacks from withi=
n the SFC-enabled domain to inject non-authorized context headers. From a s=
ervice perspective, the guard is the CP which
 is responsible for instructing the SFC-aware nodes about the mandatory-to-=
process and optional-to-process context headers. Furthermore, whatever the =
origin of a supplied context header, the last SFF of a chain (and egress no=
des) MUST remove the NSH before
 forwarding upstream.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><sp=
an>3.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:norma=
l;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">NSH is secure against leaking privacy in=
formation outside an SFC enabled domain. The last SFF of a chain (and egres=
s nodes) MUST remove the NSH before forwarding
 upstream.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><sp=
an>4.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:norma=
l;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">NSH is secure against indefinite SF/SFF =
loops by means of SI and TTL fields.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><sp=
an>5.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:norma=
l;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Control plane specific threats are out o=
f scope, but the document cites I-D.ietf-sfc-control-plane for the expected=
 behavior when instructing SFC nodes. BTW,
 the secdir review of the CP requirements can be retrieved here (<a href=3D=
"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-sfc-control-plane-02-secdir-e=
arly-meadows-2015-12-10/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<w=
br>doc/review-ietf-sfc-control-<wbr>plane-02-secdir-early-meadows-<wbr>2015=
-12-10/</a>).
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><sp=
an>6.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:norma=
l;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">NSH does not share privacy data with non=
-authorized parties. Indeed, data carried in context headers are derived fr=
om the original packet (e.g., source IP address)
 or are already known to the operator (e.g., subscriber identifier, policy =
identifier, service identifier). The context information is shared with nod=
es that are within the same administrative domain. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><sp=
an>7.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:norma=
l;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Like other communication protocols, atta=
cks from within the network are possible, but those are soften by relying o=
n the procedures put in place by operators
 for testing and validating nodes/features before actual activation. NSH do=
es not provide a built-in feature to prevent misbehaving nodes, but recomme=
nds to rely on the security features provided by the underlying transport e=
ncapsulation schemes.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Let=E2=80=99s now focus on the typical =E2=80=
=9Cattacks=E2=80=9D that can be issued from within the network:
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><sp=
an>1.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:norma=
l;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">A misbehaving node redirect the traffic =
to non-authorized nodes outside a domain: This is not NSH-specific.<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><sp=
an>2.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:norma=
l;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">A misbehaving SFC-unware node alters the=
 content of a packet: This is not NSH-specific.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><sp=
an>3.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:norma=
l;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">A misbehaving SFC-aware node alters the =
content of NSH:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-l=
eft:72pt">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span><span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;fo=
nt-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>i.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:n=
ormal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quo=
t;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span></span></span><u><=
/u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier N=
ew&quot;">It removes the NSH header from all packets it sees: This will imp=
ly that the packets, the misbehaving
 node intercepts, will be forwarded upstream without invoking the required =
SFs (which may be seen as a feature, not a bug if one dislikes =E2=80=9Cmid=
dleboxes=E2=80=9D :)). More seriously, the OAM NSH feature will allow an op=
erator to detect whether NSH packets are travelling
 in accordance with SFC instructions of that domain. Running that feature w=
ill help detecting the misbehaving node.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-l=
eft:72pt">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span><span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;fo=
nt-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>ii.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:=
normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&qu=
ot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span></span></span><u>=
</u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier =
New&quot;">It modifies the content of SPI: This will imply that these packe=
ts will be forwarded over a wrong
 path. Again, running OAM NSH will allow the operator to detect whether a p=
acket is travelling in accordance with SFC instructions. Running that featu=
re regularly will help identifying the misbehaving node and whether the SFC=
 configuration of a domain is aligned
 with the expected behavior.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-l=
eft:72pt">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span><span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;fo=
nt-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
</span>iii.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight=
:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&q=
uot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span></span></span><u=
></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier=
 New&quot;">It modifies the content of SI/TTL: This will increase the autho=
rized maximum SFF/SF hops. Not sure
 if there is a security problem out there. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-l=
eft:72pt">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span><span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;fo=
nt-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>iv.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:=
normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&qu=
ot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span></span></span><u>=
</u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier =
New&quot;">The misbehaving node is a classifier: The implications will be s=
evere from a service standpoint. NSH
 relies on OAM and control-plane to detect such case. =C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-l=
eft:72pt">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span><span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;fo=
nt-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>v.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:n=
ormal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quo=
t;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span></span></span><u><=
/u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier N=
ew&quot;">The misbehaving node is an SFF: Examples of misbehaviors are: str=
ip NSH, forward to a non-authorized
 SF, redirect the traffic to a non-authorized nodes, etc. Like for the clas=
sifier case, NSH relies on OAM and control-plane to detect such case. =C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Are there specific attacks that are not liste=
d above and that need more attention from the WG?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Thank you.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Med<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

--001a114699dc598d13055bead257--


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From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 14:51:07 -0400
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To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Cc: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>, "sfc-chairs@ietf.org" <sfc-chairs@ietf.org>,  "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>, Kathleen Moriarty <Kathleen.Moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>,  The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org>,  "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [sfc] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-24: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Eric,

The concern in the Discusses from Kathleen & you is around integrity
protection.
There are no encapsulations from the Routing Area that require integrity
protection that I am aware of;
when privacy is required IPsec or MAC sec are used.
I am continuing to encourage discussion on what is the threat model and
what technology are possible.
While I have been primarily engaging with Kathleen, given that you have a
separate Discuss, I would strongly
encourage your responsive participation.

There is certainly not consensus to add integrity protection from the
authors or WG.
The ramifications of doing so are quite severe and understanding of the
actual threat models that would
force that direction

Regards,
Alia


On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 1:16 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
> cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Oct 16, 2017, at 12:27 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 9:24 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
>> cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Many thanks for the continued dialogue, Kathleen!!!
>>>
>>> Kathleen, Eric,
>>>
>>> Just a heads up that we are almost finished with a proposal for the
>>> Security Considerations that we are targeting to address the concerns. =
More
>>> soon, and while we look forward to your comments on that proposal, in t=
he
>>> mean time:
>>>
>>> Eric, we have not heard from you on any of the two messages we sent
>>> addressed to you.
>>>
>>
>> Yeah, these got back-burnered
>>
>>
>> We understand this DISCUSSion happens through dialogue =E2=80=94 not gue=
ssing or
>> mandate.
>>
>> because I had understood you were going to make substantive changes to
>> actually add an integrity feature
>>
>>
>> Sorry if we were not clear.
>>
>> We are indeed working on changes, some potentially substantive =E2=80=94=
 but
>> somehow I missed this: can you please point me to the record where there=
=E2=80=99s
>> a decision or discussion to =E2=80=9Cadd an integrity feature=E2=80=9D?
>>
>
> That was my take-home from the telechat where this was discussed, but
> maybe Alia would like to say what her understanding was.
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>> We are working through a more thorough threat analysis and describing th=
e
>> implications and solutions for each of those cases.
>>
>> and I was intending to review the draft at that time. Is your plan not t=
o
>> do that?
>>
>>
>> We would have liked to have responses to our comments or questions,
>> discussion via dialogue, to incorporate in the updates and potentially
>> substantive set of changes. The plan is (now) provide a textual proposal=
.
>>
>> That said, sure: you can review the forthcoming set of changes.
>>
>> =E2=80=94 Carlos.
>>
>>
>> -Ekr
>>
>>
>>> Kathleen, one comment and one question inline.
>>>
>>> > Kathleen Moriarty <Kathleen.Moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > While
>>> > the expressions EKR includes below are not directly in the draft, thi=
s
>>> > is how we read it,
>>>
>>> This statement seems to characterize the review / reviewers, more than
>>> the document itself.
>>>
>>> >   If MPLS is used similarly instead, yes, it
>>> > will have the same issues, but you also won't have a secure option if
>>> > this is done with the same security (or lack thereof) as MPLS.
>>>
>>> I am not sure I fully understand the source, provenance, and
>>> implications of this comment. I do not recall MPLS being discussed befo=
re
>>> in the context of this document.
>>>
>>> RFC 7365 describes the use of both MPLS and IP in Data Center (DC)
>>> Network Virtualization. Today, some of these packets flow already in
>>> existing DCs, and service chaining exists in those DCs. Is there some
>>> additional requirement for DC data planes, or for NVO3, that is not
>>> captured elsewhere?
>>>
>>> More importantly: a corollary of what you are saying is that, providing
>>> a security option underneath in the tunneling adds to the overall secur=
ity
>>> posture, and that MPLS is different than IP in this context. Does that
>>> capture your intent?
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Best regards,
>>> > Kathleen
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> =E2=80=94 Carlos P.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sfc mailing list
> sfc@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc
>
>

--089e0820f738cc92a8055bead64f
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Eric,<div><br></div><div>The concern in the Discusses from=
 Kathleen &amp; you is around integrity protection.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>T=
here are no encapsulations from the Routing Area that require integrity pro=
tection that I am aware of;</div><div>when privacy is required IPsec or MAC=
 sec are used.</div><div>I am continuing to encourage discussion on what is=
 the threat model and what technology are possible.</div><div>While I have =
been primarily engaging with Kathleen, given that you have a separate Discu=
ss, I would strongly</div><div>encourage your responsive participation.</di=
v><div><br></div><div>There is certainly not consensus to add integrity pro=
tection from the authors or WG.</div><div>The ramifications of doing so are=
 quite severe and understanding of the actual threat models that would=C2=
=A0</div><div>force that direction=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,<=
/div><div>Alia</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 1:16 PM, Eric Rescorla <spa=
n dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtf=
m.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span cla=
ss=3D"">On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <span=
 dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">cp=
ignata@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Oct 16, 2017, at 12:27 PM, Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@=
rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"m_-8192061677859159064m_-2847914553679195211Apple-interchange-=
newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 9:24 AM, Carlos Pignatar=
o (cpignata)
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">cpignata@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Many thanks for the continued dialogue, Kathleen!!!<br>
<br>
Kathleen, Eric,<br>
<br>
Just a heads up that we are almost finished with a proposal for the Securit=
y Considerations that we are targeting to address the concerns. More soon, =
and while we look forward to your comments on that proposal, in the mean ti=
me:<br>
<br>
Eric, we have not heard from you on any of the two messages we sent address=
ed to you.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yeah, these got back-burnered </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span><div>We understand this DISCUSSion happens through dialogue =E2=80=
=94 not guessing or mandate.</div><span>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>because I had understood you were going to make substantive changes to=
 actually add an integrity feature</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span><div>Sorry if we were not clear.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We are indeed working on changes, some potentially substantive =E2=80=
=94 but somehow I missed this: can you please point me to the record where =
there=E2=80=99s a decision or discussion to =E2=80=9Cadd an integrity featu=
re=E2=80=9D?=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div=
>That was my take-home from the telechat where this was discussed, but mayb=
e Alia would like to say what her understanding was.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>-Ekr</div><span class=3D""><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We are working through a more thorough threat analysis and describing =
the implications and solutions for each of those cases.=C2=A0</div><span>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>and I was intending to review the draft at that time. Is your plan not=
 to do that?</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span><div>We would have liked to have responses to our comments or questi=
ons, discussion via dialogue, to incorporate in the updates and potentially=
 substantive set of changes. The plan is (now) provide a textual proposal.<=
/div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That said, sure: you can review the forthcoming set of changes.</div><=
span class=3D"m_-8192061677859159064HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=E2=80=94 Carlos.</div></font></span><span>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-Ekr<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Kathleen, one comment and one question inline.<br>
<span><br>
&gt; Kathleen Moriarty &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Kathleen.Moriarty.ietf@gmail.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">Kathleen.Moriarty.ietf@gmail.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; While<br>
&gt; the expressions EKR includes below are not directly in the draft, this=
<br>
&gt; is how we read it,<br>
<br>
</span>This statement seems to characterize the review / reviewers, more th=
an the document itself.<br>
<span><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0If MPLS is used similarly instead, yes, it<br>
&gt; will have the same issues, but you also won&#39;t have a secure option=
 if<br>
&gt; this is done with the same security (or lack thereof) as MPLS.<br>
<br>
</span>I am not sure I fully understand the source, provenance, and implica=
tions of this comment. I do not recall MPLS being discussed before in the c=
ontext of this document.<br>
<br>
RFC 7365 describes the use of both MPLS and IP in Data Center (DC) Network =
Virtualization. Today, some of these packets flow already in existing DCs, =
and service chaining exists in those DCs. Is there some additional requirem=
ent for DC data planes, or for NVO3,
 that is not captured elsewhere?<br>
<br>
More importantly: a corollary of what you are saying is that, providing a s=
ecurity option underneath in the tunneling adds to the overall security pos=
ture, and that MPLS is different than IP in this context. Does that capture=
 your intent?<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Best regards,<br>
&gt; Kathleen<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
=E2=80=94 Carlos P.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span></div>
<br>
</div>

</blockquote></span></div><br></div></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
sfc mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org">sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/sfc</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" <paulq@cisco.com>
To: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
CC: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "Kathleen Moriarty" <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
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Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 13:31:12 +0000
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--_000_BC3952F395444E03B73C78AFFD870446ciscocom_--


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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 06:45:25 -0700
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To: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" <paulq@cisco.com>
Cc: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>,  "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>,  Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
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On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 6:31 AM, Paul Quinn (paulq) <paulq@cisco.com> wrote=
:

> Hi Alia,
>
>
>
> On Oct 19, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Med,
>
> Since you directed this at me, there are efforts to have some discussions
> and understand better the particular threats.
> Currently, there is no transport with integrity protection that is even a
> SHOULD to implement, much less a MUST.  There
> is no control-plane defined (beyond the BGP work) that describes detectin=
g
> issues.  There is no OAM defined and adopted
> by the WG that detects or handles these types of attacks. I see the
> structure that you are presuming, but none of these are
> available as normative references to NSH today.
>
>
> OAM does not address the security concern around integrity and devices.
> If you and the WG believe OAM is the next =E2=80=9Cto do=E2=80=9D for the=
 WG, that=E2=80=99s fine,
> but it=E2=80=99s orthogonal to the security points raised.
>
>
> I had recommended having a focused interim meeting to make sure that
> everyone concerned understood the issues and
> worked through the threat analysis and possible solutions together.
>
>
> Let=E2=80=99s please not conflate the ongoing security discussion with OA=
M, or
> other topics.  The security reality, as you pointed out in your email to
> Eric, is that we, as a community and industry, accept a level of trust wr=
t
> network devices.
>

I don't actually think that's the point of contention, at least from my
perspective. Rather it's about the level of trust to be placed in the
networking path through which that data flows.

-Ekr



>  The ongoing edits and dialogue with Kathleen and Eric are working throug=
h
> their concerns.  An interim to talk about next SFC steps, post NSH, is a
> different matter.
>
>
>
> At this point, clearly the most that could happen is a
> virtual interim.  There are some background discussions going on.
>
> I do not want to assume what mixture will be acceptable to handle the
> security concerns expressed by Kathleen and Eric
> and supported by a number of other ADs.
>
> I do greatly appreciate your attention and efforts to clarify and try to
> move this work forward. I have been expressing concerns
> about the security aspects of this work since RFC 7665 went through the
> publication process - and strongly encouraging serious
> WG focus to prevent precisely what has now happened.
>
> Regards,
> Alia
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 4:49 AM, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Alia,
>>
>>
>>
>> Can you please share with us the current status of the document and the
>> list of pending blocking points?
>>
>>
>>
>> I went through all public email exchanges, especially the ones related t=
o
>> security, but it is not that easy to understand what are the remaining
>> issues that need fixes.
>>
>>
>>
>> In particular, is there a concern with assuming the current NSH threat
>> model?
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.  NSH is secure against attacks induced by nodes that inject (spoofed)
>> NSH before entering an SFC-enabled domain. Indeed, SFC ingress nodes MUS=
T
>> discard packets carrying NSH.
>>
>> 2.  NSH is secure against attacks from within the SFC-enabled domain to
>> inject non-authorized context headers. From a service perspective, the
>> guard is the CP which is responsible for instructing the SFC-aware nodes
>> about the mandatory-to-process and optional-to-process context headers.
>> Furthermore, whatever the origin of a supplied context header, the last =
SFF
>> of a chain (and egress nodes) MUST remove the NSH before forwarding
>> upstream.
>>
>> 3.  NSH is secure against leaking privacy information outside an SFC
>> enabled domain. The last SFF of a chain (and egress nodes) MUST remove t=
he
>> NSH before forwarding upstream.
>>
>> 4.  NSH is secure against indefinite SF/SFF loops by means of SI and TTL
>> fields.
>>
>> 5.  Control plane specific threats are out of scope, but the document
>> cites I-D.ietf-sfc-control-plane for the expected behavior when instruct=
ing
>> SFC nodes. BTW, the secdir review of the CP requirements can be retrieve=
d
>> here (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-sfc-control-pl
>> ane-02-secdir-early-meadows-2015-12-10/).
>>
>> 6.  NSH does not share privacy data with non-authorized parties. Indeed,
>> data carried in context headers are derived from the original packet (e.=
g.,
>> source IP address) or are already known to the operator (e.g., subscribe=
r
>> identifier, policy identifier, service identifier). The context informat=
ion
>> is shared with nodes that are within the same administrative domain.
>>
>> 7.  Like other communication protocols, attacks from within the network
>> are possible, but those are soften by relying on the procedures put in
>> place by operators for testing and validating nodes/features before actu=
al
>> activation. NSH does not provide a built-in feature to prevent misbehavi=
ng
>> nodes, but recommends to rely on the security features provided by the
>> underlying transport encapsulation schemes.
>>
>>
>>
>> Let=E2=80=99s now focus on the typical =E2=80=9Cattacks=E2=80=9D that ca=
n be issued from within
>> the network:
>>
>> 1.  A misbehaving node redirect the traffic to non-authorized nodes
>> outside a domain: This is not NSH-specific.
>>
>> 2.  A misbehaving SFC-unware node alters the content of a packet: This
>> is not NSH-specific.
>>
>> 3.  A misbehaving SFC-aware node alters the content of NSH:
>>
>>             i.     It removes the NSH header from all packets it sees:
>> This will imply that the packets, the misbehaving node intercepts, will =
be
>> forwarded upstream without invoking the required SFs (which may be seen =
as
>> a feature, not a bug if one dislikes =E2=80=9Cmiddleboxes=E2=80=9D :)). =
More seriously, the
>> OAM NSH feature will allow an operator to detect whether NSH packets are
>> travelling in accordance with SFC instructions of that domain. Running t=
hat
>> feature will help detecting the misbehaving node.
>>
>>           ii.     It modifies the content of SPI: This will imply that
>> these packets will be forwarded over a wrong path. Again, running OAM NS=
H
>> will allow the operator to detect whether a packet is travelling in
>> accordance with SFC instructions. Running that feature regularly will he=
lp
>> identifying the misbehaving node and whether the SFC configuration of a
>> domain is aligned with the expected behavior.
>>
>>         iii.     It modifies the content of SI/TTL: This will increase
>> the authorized maximum SFF/SF hops. Not sure if there is a security prob=
lem
>> out there.
>>
>>           iv.     The misbehaving node is a classifier: The implications
>> will be severe from a service standpoint. NSH relies on OAM and
>> control-plane to detect such case.
>>
>>             v.     The misbehaving node is an SFF: Examples of
>> misbehaviors are: strip NSH, forward to a non-authorized SF, redirect th=
e
>> traffic to a non-authorized nodes, etc. Like for the classifier case, NS=
H
>> relies on OAM and control-plane to detect such case.
>>
>>
>>
>> Are there specific attacks that are not listed above and that need more
>> attention from the WG?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Med
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sfc mailing list
> sfc@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc
>
>
>

--001a114edd48c3e242055bfab100
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 6:31 AM, Paul Quinn (paulq) <span dir=3D"ltr">&=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paulq@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">paulq@cisco.com</a>=
&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-spac=
e">
Hi Alia,
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><span class=3D""><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Oct 19, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Alia Atlas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">akatlas@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"m_7503930141620012431Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Med,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Since you directed this at me, there are efforts to have some discussi=
ons and understand better the particular threats.</div>
<div>Currently, there is no transport with integrity protection that is eve=
n a SHOULD to implement, much less a MUST.=C2=A0 There</div>
<div>is no control-plane defined (beyond the BGP work) that describes detec=
ting issues.=C2=A0 There is no OAM defined and adopted</div>
<div>by the WG that detects or handles these types of attacks. I see the st=
ructure that you are presuming, but none of these are</div>
<div>available as normative references to NSH today.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span><div>OAM does not address the security concern around integrity and =
devices.=C2=A0 If you and the WG believe OAM is the next =E2=80=9Cto do=E2=
=80=9D for the WG, that=E2=80=99s fine, but it=E2=80=99s orthogonal to the =
security points raised.</div><span class=3D"">
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>I had recommended having a focused interim meeting to make sure that e=
veryone concerned understood the issues and</div>
<div>worked through the threat analysis and possible solutions together.</d=
iv>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span><div>Let=E2=80=99s please not conflate the ongoing security discussi=
on with OAM, or other topics.=C2=A0 The security reality, as you pointed ou=
t in your email to Eric, is that we, as a community and industry, accept a =
level of trust wrt network devices. </div></div></div></div></div></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t actually think that&#39;s the point of =
contention, at least from my perspective. Rather it&#39;s about the level o=
f trust to be placed in the networking path through which that data flows.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-=
white-space"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:aft=
er-white-space"><div><div><div>=C2=A0The ongoing edits
 and dialogue with Kathleen and Eric are working through their concerns.=C2=
=A0 An interim to talk about next SFC steps, post NSH, is a different matte=
r. =C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>At this point, clearly the most that could happen is a</div>
<div>virtual interim.=C2=A0 There are some background discussions going on.=
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I do not want to assume what mixture will be acceptable to handle the =
security concerns expressed by Kathleen and Eric</div>
<div>and supported by a number of other ADs.<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">I do greatly appreciate your attention and effor=
ts to clarify and try to move this work forward. I have been expressing con=
cerns</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">about the security aspects of this work since RF=
C 7665 went through the publication process - and strongly encouraging seri=
ous</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">WG focus to prevent precisely what has now happe=
ned.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">Regards,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">Alia</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 4:49 AM, <span dir=3D"lt=
r">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">moham=
ed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"FR">
<div class=3D"m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675WordSection1=
">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;">Hi Alia,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Can you please share with us the current stat=
us of the document and the list of pending blocking points?<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I went through all public email exchanges, es=
pecially the ones related to security, but it is not that easy to understan=
d what are the remaining issues that need
 fixes.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">In particular, is there a concern with assumi=
ng the current NSH threat model?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagra=
ph"><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;"><span>1.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:nor=
mal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal=
;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">NSH is secure against attacks induced by=
 nodes that inject (spoofed) NSH before entering an SFC-enabled domain. Ind=
eed, SFC ingress nodes MUST
 discard packets carrying NSH.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagra=
ph"><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;"><span>2.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:nor=
mal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal=
;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">NSH is secure against attacks from withi=
n the SFC-enabled domain to inject non-authorized context headers. From a s=
ervice perspective, the guard
 is the CP which is responsible for instructing the SFC-aware nodes about t=
he mandatory-to-process and optional-to-process context headers. Furthermor=
e, whatever the origin of a supplied context header, the last SFF of a chai=
n (and egress nodes) MUST remove
 the NSH before forwarding upstream.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagra=
ph"><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;"><span>3.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:nor=
mal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal=
;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">NSH is secure against leaking privacy in=
formation outside an SFC enabled domain. The last SFF of a chain (and egres=
s nodes) MUST remove the NSH
 before forwarding upstream.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagra=
ph"><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;"><span>4.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:nor=
mal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal=
;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">NSH is secure against indefinite SF/SFF =
loops by means of SI and TTL fields.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagra=
ph"><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;"><span>5.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:nor=
mal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal=
;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Control plane specific threats are out o=
f scope, but the document cites I-D.ietf-sfc-control-plane for the expected=
 behavior when instructing SFC
 nodes. BTW, the secdir review of the CP requirements can be retrieved here=
 (<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-sfc-control-plane=
-02-secdir-early-meadows-2015-12-10/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker=
.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/review-ietf-sfc-control-pl<wbr>ane-02-secdir-early-meado=
ws-20<wbr>15-12-10/</a>).
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagra=
ph"><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;"><span>6.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:nor=
mal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal=
;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">NSH does not share privacy data with non=
-authorized parties. Indeed, data carried in context headers are derived fr=
om the original packet (e.g.,
 source IP address) or are already known to the operator (e.g., subscriber =
identifier, policy identifier, service identifier). The context information=
 is shared with nodes that are within the same administrative domain. =C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagra=
ph"><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;"><span>7.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:nor=
mal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal=
;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Like other communication protocols, atta=
cks from within the network are possible, but those are soften by relying o=
n the procedures put in place
 by operators for testing and validating nodes/features before actual activ=
ation. NSH does not provide a built-in feature to prevent misbehaving nodes=
, but recommends to rely on the security features provided by the underlyin=
g transport encapsulation schemes.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Let=E2=80=99s now focus on the typical =E2=80=
=9Cattacks=E2=80=9D that can be issued from within the network:
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagra=
ph"><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;"><span>1.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:nor=
mal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal=
;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">A misbehaving node redirect the traffic =
to non-authorized nodes outside a domain: This is not NSH-specific.<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagra=
ph"><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;"><span>2.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:nor=
mal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal=
;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">A misbehaving SFC-unware node alters the=
 content of a packet: This is not NSH-specific.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagra=
ph"><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;"><span>3.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:nor=
mal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal=
;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">A misbehaving SFC-aware node alters the =
content of NSH:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagra=
ph" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span><span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;fo=
nt-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>i.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:n=
ormal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quo=
t;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">It removes the NSH header from all packe=
ts it sees: This will imply that the packets, the misbehaving node intercep=
ts, will be forwarded upstream
 without invoking the required SFs (which may be seen as a feature, not a b=
ug if one dislikes =E2=80=9Cmiddleboxes=E2=80=9D :)). More seriously, the O=
AM NSH feature will allow an operator to detect whether NSH packets are tra=
velling in accordance with SFC instructions of that
 domain. Running that feature will help detecting the misbehaving node. <u>
</u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagra=
ph" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span><span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;fo=
nt-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>ii.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:=
normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&qu=
ot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">It modifies the content of SPI: This wil=
l imply that these packets will be forwarded over a wrong path. Again, runn=
ing OAM NSH will allow the operator
 to detect whether a packet is travelling in accordance with SFC instructio=
ns. Running that feature regularly will help identifying the misbehaving no=
de and whether the SFC configuration of a domain is aligned with the expect=
ed behavior.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagra=
ph" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span><span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;fo=
nt-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
</span>iii.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight=
:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&q=
uot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">It modifies the content of SI/TTL: This =
will increase the authorized maximum SFF/SF hops. Not sure if there is a se=
curity problem out there.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagra=
ph" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span><span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;fo=
nt-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>iv.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:=
normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&qu=
ot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">The misbehaving node is a classifier: Th=
e implications will be severe from a service standpoint. NSH relies on OAM =
and control-plane to detect
 such case. =C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagra=
ph" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span><span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;fo=
nt-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-=
family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>v.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:n=
ormal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quo=
t;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">The misbehaving node is an SFF: Examples=
 of misbehaviors are: strip NSH, forward to a non-authorized SF, redirect t=
he traffic to a non-authorized
 nodes, etc. Like for the classifier case, NSH relies on OAM and control-pl=
ane to detect such case. =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Are there specific attacks that are not liste=
d above and that need more attention from the WG?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Thank you.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Med<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 06:55:35 -0700
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To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
Cc: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" <paulq@cisco.com>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>,  Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
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It's explained in detail in my DISCUSS:

"1. The assumption that the datacenter is a secure environment is not a

reasonable one. As Kathleen and Adam both observer, datacenter
breaches are common and that is why people are moving towards
encryption inside the data center. I see that this draft has text
claiming that this is only to be deployed in safe environments, but we
know that technologies like this get deployed outside the locations
for which we claim they are to be deployed, and there's nothing here
to stop that. Moreover, the whole trend towards cloud computing pushes
us away from designs in which you can safely talk about single secure
zones."


-Ekr




On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 6:51 AM, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:

> Dear Eric,
>
>
>
> Can you please clarify this point: =E2=80=9CRather it's about the level o=
f trust
> to be placed in the networking path through which that data flows.=E2=80=
=9D?
>
>
>
> Sorry if you have already explained it to the editors, but as a WG
> participant I don=E2=80=99t have access to a record of such discussion.
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Med
>
>
>
> *De :* Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
> *Envoy=C3=A9 :* vendredi 20 octobre 2017 15:45
> *=C3=80 :* Paul Quinn (paulq)
> *Cc :* Alia Atlas; BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Kathleen Moriarty;
> sfc@ietf.org
> *Objet :* Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 6:31 AM, Paul Quinn (paulq) <paulq@cisco.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Alia,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 19, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Med,
>
>
>
> Since you directed this at me, there are efforts to have some discussions
> and understand better the particular threats.
>
> Currently, there is no transport with integrity protection that is even a
> SHOULD to implement, much less a MUST.  There
>
> is no control-plane defined (beyond the BGP work) that describes detectin=
g
> issues.  There is no OAM defined and adopted
>
> by the WG that detects or handles these types of attacks. I see the
> structure that you are presuming, but none of these are
>
> available as normative references to NSH today.
>
>
>
>
>
> OAM does not address the security concern around integrity and devices.
> If you and the WG believe OAM is the next =E2=80=9Cto do=E2=80=9D for the=
 WG, that=E2=80=99s fine,
> but it=E2=80=99s orthogonal to the security points raised.
>
>
>
>
>
> I had recommended having a focused interim meeting to make sure that
> everyone concerned understood the issues and
>
> worked through the threat analysis and possible solutions together.
>
>
>
> Let=E2=80=99s please not conflate the ongoing security discussion with OA=
M, or
> other topics.  The security reality, as you pointed out in your email to
> Eric, is that we, as a community and industry, accept a level of trust wr=
t
> network devices.
>
>
>
> I don't actually think that's the point of contention, at least from my
> perspective. Rather it's about the level of trust to be placed in the
> networking path through which that data flows.
>
>
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
>
>
>  The ongoing edits and dialogue with Kathleen and Eric are working throug=
h
> their concerns.  An interim to talk about next SFC steps, post NSH, is a
> different matter.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At this point, clearly the most that could happen is a
>
> virtual interim.  There are some background discussions going on.
>
>
>
> I do not want to assume what mixture will be acceptable to handle the
> security concerns expressed by Kathleen and Eric
>
> and supported by a number of other ADs.
>
>
>
> I do greatly appreciate your attention and efforts to clarify and try to
> move this work forward. I have been expressing concerns
>
> about the security aspects of this work since RFC 7665 went through the
> publication process - and strongly encouraging serious
>
> WG focus to prevent precisely what has now happened.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Alia
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 4:49 AM, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Alia,
>
>
>
> Can you please share with us the current status of the document and the
> list of pending blocking points?
>
>
>
> I went through all public email exchanges, especially the ones related to
> security, but it is not that easy to understand what are the remaining
> issues that need fixes.
>
>
>
> In particular, is there a concern with assuming the current NSH threat
> model?
>
>
>
> 1.  NSH is secure against attacks induced by nodes that inject (spoofed)
> NSH before entering an SFC-enabled domain. Indeed, SFC ingress nodes MUST
> discard packets carrying NSH.
>
> 2.  NSH is secure against attacks from within the SFC-enabled domain to
> inject non-authorized context headers. From a service perspective, the
> guard is the CP which is responsible for instructing the SFC-aware nodes
> about the mandatory-to-process and optional-to-process context headers.
> Furthermore, whatever the origin of a supplied context header, the last S=
FF
> of a chain (and egress nodes) MUST remove the NSH before forwarding
> upstream.
>
> 3.  NSH is secure against leaking privacy information outside an SFC
> enabled domain. The last SFF of a chain (and egress nodes) MUST remove th=
e
> NSH before forwarding upstream.
>
> 4.  NSH is secure against indefinite SF/SFF loops by means of SI and TTL
> fields.
>
> 5.  Control plane specific threats are out of scope, but the document
> cites I-D.ietf-sfc-control-plane for the expected behavior when instructi=
ng
> SFC nodes. BTW, the secdir review of the CP requirements can be retrieved
> here (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-sfc-control-
> plane-02-secdir-early-meadows-2015-12-10/).
>
> 6.  NSH does not share privacy data with non-authorized parties. Indeed,
> data carried in context headers are derived from the original packet (e.g=
.,
> source IP address) or are already known to the operator (e.g., subscriber
> identifier, policy identifier, service identifier). The context informati=
on
> is shared with nodes that are within the same administrative domain.
>
> 7.  Like other communication protocols, attacks from within the network
> are possible, but those are soften by relying on the procedures put in
> place by operators for testing and validating nodes/features before actua=
l
> activation. NSH does not provide a built-in feature to prevent misbehavin=
g
> nodes, but recommends to rely on the security features provided by the
> underlying transport encapsulation schemes.
>
>
>
> Let=E2=80=99s now focus on the typical =E2=80=9Cattacks=E2=80=9D that can=
 be issued from within
> the network:
>
> 1.  A misbehaving node redirect the traffic to non-authorized nodes
> outside a domain: This is not NSH-specific.
>
> 2.  A misbehaving SFC-unware node alters the content of a packet: This is
> not NSH-specific.
>
> 3.  A misbehaving SFC-aware node alters the content of NSH:
>
>             i.     It removes the NSH header from all packets it sees:
> This will imply that the packets, the misbehaving node intercepts, will b=
e
> forwarded upstream without invoking the required SFs (which may be seen a=
s
> a feature, not a bug if one dislikes =E2=80=9Cmiddleboxes=E2=80=9D :)). M=
ore seriously, the
> OAM NSH feature will allow an operator to detect whether NSH packets are
> travelling in accordance with SFC instructions of that domain. Running th=
at
> feature will help detecting the misbehaving node.
>
>           ii.     It modifies the content of SPI: This will imply that
> these packets will be forwarded over a wrong path. Again, running OAM NSH
> will allow the operator to detect whether a packet is travelling in
> accordance with SFC instructions. Running that feature regularly will hel=
p
> identifying the misbehaving node and whether the SFC configuration of a
> domain is aligned with the expected behavior.
>
>         iii.     It modifies the content of SI/TTL: This will increase
> the authorized maximum SFF/SF hops. Not sure if there is a security probl=
em
> out there.
>
>           iv.     The misbehaving node is a classifier: The implications
> will be severe from a service standpoint. NSH relies on OAM and
> control-plane to detect such case.
>
>             v.     The misbehaving node is an SFF: Examples of
> misbehaviors are: strip NSH, forward to a non-authorized SF, redirect the
> traffic to a non-authorized nodes, etc. Like for the classifier case, NSH
> relies on OAM and control-plane to detect such case.
>
>
>
> Are there specific attacks that are not listed above and that need more
> attention from the WG?
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Med
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sfc mailing list
> sfc@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc
>
>
>
>
>

--001a1142e4cc1c3063055bfad6ff
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">It&#39;s explained in detail in my DISCUSS:=C2=A0<div><br>=
</div><div>&quot;1. The assumption that the datacenter is a secure environm=
ent is not a</div><pre class=3D"gmail-ballot gmail-pasted"><font face=3D"ar=
ial, helvetica, sans-serif">reasonable one. As Kathleen and Adam both obser=
ver, datacenter
breaches are common and that is why people are moving towards
encryption inside the data center. I see that this draft has text
claiming that this is only to be deployed in safe environments, but we
know that technologies like this get deployed outside the locations
for which we claim they are to be deployed, and there&#39;s nothing here
to stop that. Moreover, the whole trend towards cloud computing pushes
us away from designs in which you can safely talk about single secure
zones.&quot;
</font></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-ballot gmail-pasted"><font face=3D"arial, =
helvetica, sans-serif"><br></font></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-ballot gmail-pa=
sted"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">-Ekr</font></pre><pre cla=
ss=3D"gmail-ballot gmail-pasted"><br></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-ballot gmail=
-pasted"><br></pre></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 6:51 AM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.boucadair@or=
ange.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"FR" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-7370675272850075378WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Dear Eric,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Can you please clarify this poi=
nt: =E2=80=9CRather it&#39;s about the level of trust to be placed in the n=
etworking path through which that data flows.=E2=80=9D?
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Sorry if you have already expla=
ined it to the editors, but as a WG participant I don=E2=80=99t have access=
 to a record of such discussion.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Thank you.<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Med<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De=C2=A0:</span></b><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Eric=
 Rescorla [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtf=
m.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0:</b> vendredi 20 octobre 2017 15:45<br>
<b>=C3=80=C2=A0:</b> Paul Quinn (paulq)<br>
<b>Cc=C2=A0:</b> Alia Atlas; BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Kathleen Moriarty; =
<a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet=C2=A0:</b> Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 6:31 AM, Paul Quinn (paulq) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paulq@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">paulq@cisco.com</a=
>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Alia, <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Oct 19, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Alia Atlas &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">akatlas@gmail.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Med, <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Since you directed this at me, there are efforts to =
have some discussions and understand better the particular threats.<u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Currently, there is no transport with integrity prot=
ection that is even a SHOULD to implement, much less a MUST.=C2=A0 There<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">is no control-plane defined (beyond the BGP work) th=
at describes detecting issues.=C2=A0 There is no OAM defined and adopted<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">by the WG that detects or handles these types of att=
acks. I see the structure that you are presuming, but none of these are<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">available as normative references to NSH today.<u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OAM does not address the security concern around int=
egrity and devices.=C2=A0 If you and the WG believe OAM is the next =E2=80=
=9Cto do=E2=80=9D for the WG, that=E2=80=99s fine, but it=E2=80=99s orthogo=
nal to the security points raised.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I had recommended having a focused interim meeting t=
o make sure that everyone concerned understood the issues and<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">worked through the threat analysis and possible solu=
tions together.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Let=E2=80=99s please not conflate the ongoing securi=
ty discussion with OAM, or other topics.=C2=A0 The security reality, as you=
 pointed out in your email to Eric, is that we, as a community and industry=
, accept a level of trust wrt network devices.
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don&#39;t actually think that&#39;s the point of c=
ontention, at least from my perspective. Rather it&#39;s about the level of=
 trust to be placed in the networking path through which that data flows.<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Ekr<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0The ongoing edits and dialogue with Kathleen a=
nd Eric are working through their concerns.=C2=A0 An interim to talk about =
next SFC steps, post NSH, is a different matter. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">At this point, clearly the most that could happen is=
 a<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">virtual interim.=C2=A0 There are some background dis=
cussions going on.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I do not want to assume what mixture will be accepta=
ble to handle the security concerns expressed by Kathleen and Eric<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">and supported by a number of other ADs.<u></u><u></u=
></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I do greatly appreciate your attention and efforts t=
o clarify and try to move this work forward. I have been expressing concern=
s<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">about the security aspects of this work since RFC 76=
65 went through the publication process - and strongly encouraging serious<=
u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">WG focus to prevent precisely what has now happened.=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Alia<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 4:49 AM, &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.boucadair@orange=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Hi Alia,
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Can you please share with us the current st=
atus of the document and the list of pending blocking points?</span><u></u>=
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I went through all public email exchanges, =
especially the ones related to security, but it is not that easy
 to understand what are the remaining issues that need fixes.</span><u></u>=
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">In particular, is there a concern with assu=
ming the current NSH threat model?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969=
758675msolistparagraph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">1.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fon=
t-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">NSH is secure against attacks induced by nodes that inject =
(spoofed) NSH before entering an SFC-enabled domain. Indeed, SFC ingress no=
des MUST discard packets carrying NSH.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969=
758675msolistparagraph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fon=
t-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">NSH is secure against attacks from within the SFC-enabled d=
omain to inject non-authorized context headers. From a service perspective,=
 the guard is the CP which is responsible for
 instructing the SFC-aware nodes about the mandatory-to-process and optiona=
l-to-process context headers. Furthermore, whatever the origin of a supplie=
d context header, the last SFF of a chain (and egress nodes) MUST remove th=
e NSH before forwarding upstream.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969=
758675msolistparagraph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">3.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fon=
t-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">NSH is secure against leaking privacy information outside a=
n SFC enabled domain. The last SFF of a chain (and egress nodes) MUST remov=
e the NSH before forwarding upstream.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969=
758675msolistparagraph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">4.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fon=
t-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">NSH is secure against indefinite SF/SFF loops by means of S=
I and TTL fields.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969=
758675msolistparagraph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">5.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fon=
t-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">Control plane specific threats are out of scope, but the do=
cument cites I-D.ietf-sfc-control-plane for the expected behavior when inst=
ructing SFC nodes. BTW, the secdir review of the
 CP requirements can be retrieved here (<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf=
.org/doc/review-ietf-sfc-control-plane-02-secdir-early-meadows-2015-12-10/"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/review-ietf-sfc-co=
ntrol-<wbr>plane-02-secdir-early-meadows-<wbr>2015-12-10/</a>).
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969=
758675msolistparagraph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">6.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fon=
t-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">NSH does not share privacy data with non-authorized parties=
. Indeed, data carried in context headers are derived from the original pac=
ket (e.g., source IP address) or are already known
 to the operator (e.g., subscriber identifier, policy identifier, service i=
dentifier). The context information is shared with nodes that are within th=
e same administrative domain. =C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969=
758675msolistparagraph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">7.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fon=
t-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">Like other communication protocols, attacks from within the=
 network are possible, but those are soften by relying on the procedures pu=
t in place by operators for testing and validating
 nodes/features before actual activation. NSH does not provide a built-in f=
eature to prevent misbehaving nodes, but recommends to rely on the security=
 features provided by the underlying transport encapsulation schemes.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Let=E2=80=99s now focus on the typical =E2=
=80=9Cattacks=E2=80=9D that can be issued from within the network:
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969=
758675msolistparagraph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">1.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fon=
t-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">A misbehaving node redirect the traffic to non-authorized n=
odes outside a domain: This is not NSH-specific.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969=
758675msolistparagraph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fon=
t-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">A misbehaving SFC-unware node alters the content of a packe=
t: This is not NSH-specific.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969=
758675msolistparagraph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">3.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fon=
t-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">A misbehaving SFC-aware node alters the content of NSH:</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969=
758675msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">i.</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">It removes the NSH header from all packets it sees: This wi=
ll imply that the packets, the misbehaving node intercepts, will be forward=
ed upstream without invoking the required SFs
 (which may be seen as a feature, not a bug if one dislikes =E2=80=9Cmiddle=
boxes=E2=80=9D :)). More seriously, the OAM NSH feature will allow an opera=
tor to detect whether NSH packets are travelling in accordance with SFC ins=
tructions of that domain. Running that feature will
 help detecting the misbehaving node. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969=
758675msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">ii.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">It modifies the content of SPI: This will imply that these =
packets will be forwarded over a wrong path. Again, running OAM NSH will al=
low the operator to detect whether a packet is
 travelling in accordance with SFC instructions. Running that feature regul=
arly will help identifying the misbehaving node and whether the SFC configu=
ration of a domain is aligned with the expected behavior.</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969=
758675msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">iii.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fo=
nt-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">It modifies the content of SI/TTL: This will increase the a=
uthorized maximum SFF/SF hops. Not sure if there is a security problem out =
there.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969=
758675msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">iv.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">The misbehaving node is a classifier: The implications will=
 be severe from a service standpoint. NSH relies on OAM and control-plane t=
o detect such case. =C2=A0=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969=
758675msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">v.</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">The misbehaving node is an SFF: Examples of misbehaviors ar=
e: strip NSH, forward to a non-authorized SF, redirect the traffic to a non=
-authorized nodes, etc. Like for the classifier
 case, NSH relies on OAM and control-plane to detect such case. =C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Are there specific attacks that are not lis=
ted above and that need more attention from the WG?</span><u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Thank you.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Cheers,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Med</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">______________________________<wbr>_________________=
<br>
sfc mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/sfc</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a1142e4cc1c3063055bfad6ff--


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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
CC: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" <paulq@cisco.com>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Med Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
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References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300A056E39@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <CAG4d1rc9R47rvLPUhLEQsfKNQHT=u2A0S2sKzao5uL3EdTzy1Q@mail.gmail.com> <BC3952F3-9544-4E03-B73C-78AFFD870446@cisco.com> <CABcZeBNptFJyrrbuHjUeaEk3Tz8aqTQYgb8jftF9UQ45U2kMCg@mail.gmail.com> <4A8DB6C5-28CC-41D6-9163-611A58BEC383@cisco.com>
From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 07:08:03 -0700
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Cc: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" <paulq@cisco.com>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>,  Med Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>,  Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
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On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 7:01 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:

> Eric,
>
> On Oct 20, 2017, at 9:45 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 6:31 AM, Paul Quinn (paulq) <paulq@cisco.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Alia,
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 19, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Med,
>>
>> Since you directed this at me, there are efforts to have some discussion=
s
>> and understand better the particular threats.
>> Currently, there is no transport with integrity protection that is even =
a
>> SHOULD to implement, much less a MUST.  There
>> is no control-plane defined (beyond the BGP work) that describes
>> detecting issues.  There is no OAM defined and adopted
>> by the WG that detects or handles these types of attacks. I see the
>> structure that you are presuming, but none of these are
>> available as normative references to NSH today.
>>
>>
>> OAM does not address the security concern around integrity and devices.
>> If you and the WG believe OAM is the next =E2=80=9Cto do=E2=80=9D for th=
e WG, that=E2=80=99s fine,
>> but it=E2=80=99s orthogonal to the security points raised.
>>
>>
>> I had recommended having a focused interim meeting to make sure that
>> everyone concerned understood the issues and
>> worked through the threat analysis and possible solutions together.
>>
>>
>> Let=E2=80=99s please not conflate the ongoing security discussion with O=
AM, or
>> other topics.  The security reality, as you pointed out in your email to
>> Eric, is that we, as a community and industry, accept a level of trust w=
rt
>> network devices.
>>
>
> I don't actually think that's the point of contention, at least from my
> perspective. Rather it's about the level of trust to be placed in the
> networking path through which that data flows.
>
>
> Understood. How about this?
>
>               X.2.  Transport Encapsulation Security
>
>                         NSH is always encapsulated by an outer transport
>                         encapsulation as detailed in Section 4 of this
>                         specification, and as depicted in Figure 1.  If a=
n
> operator
>                         deems cryptographic integrity protection necessar=
y
> due to
>                         their risk analysis, then an outer transport
> encapsulation
>                         that provides such protection [RFC6071], such
> as IPsec, MUST
>                         be used.
>

I can't speak for Kathleen, but I don't really think this gets the job done=
.

As described in RFC 3552 (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3552#section-3)
our threat model is that the Internet is untrusted. That means we should be
designing protocols that are safe to operate in that environment, which in
this case means that the protocol should either (a) come with a built-in
security mechanism or (b) be run over a secure transport. I don't think
telling operators "you figure it out" reflects best current practice.

-Ekr


>
>
> =E2=80=94 Carlos.
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
>>  The ongoing edits and dialogue with Kathleen and Eric are working
>> through their concerns.  An interim to talk about next SFC steps, post N=
SH,
>> is a different matter.
>>
>>
>>
>> At this point, clearly the most that could happen is a
>> virtual interim.  There are some background discussions going on.
>>
>> I do not want to assume what mixture will be acceptable to handle the
>> security concerns expressed by Kathleen and Eric
>> and supported by a number of other ADs.
>>
>> I do greatly appreciate your attention and efforts to clarify and try to
>> move this work forward. I have been expressing concerns
>> about the security aspects of this work since RFC 7665 went through the
>> publication process - and strongly encouraging serious
>> WG focus to prevent precisely what has now happened.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Alia
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 4:49 AM, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Alia,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Can you please share with us the current status of the document and the
>>> list of pending blocking points?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I went through all public email exchanges, especially the ones related
>>> to security, but it is not that easy to understand what are the remaini=
ng
>>> issues that need fixes.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In particular, is there a concern with assuming the current NSH threat
>>> model?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1.  NSH is secure against attacks induced by nodes that inject
>>> (spoofed) NSH before entering an SFC-enabled domain. Indeed, SFC ingres=
s
>>> nodes MUST discard packets carrying NSH.
>>>
>>> 2.  NSH is secure against attacks from within the SFC-enabled domain to
>>> inject non-authorized context headers. From a service perspective, the
>>> guard is the CP which is responsible for instructing the SFC-aware node=
s
>>> about the mandatory-to-process and optional-to-process context headers.
>>> Furthermore, whatever the origin of a supplied context header, the last=
 SFF
>>> of a chain (and egress nodes) MUST remove the NSH before forwarding
>>> upstream.
>>>
>>> 3.  NSH is secure against leaking privacy information outside an SFC
>>> enabled domain. The last SFF of a chain (and egress nodes) MUST remove =
the
>>> NSH before forwarding upstream.
>>>
>>> 4.  NSH is secure against indefinite SF/SFF loops by means of SI and
>>> TTL fields.
>>>
>>> 5.  Control plane specific threats are out of scope, but the document
>>> cites I-D.ietf-sfc-control-plane for the expected behavior when instruc=
ting
>>> SFC nodes. BTW, the secdir review of the CP requirements can be retriev=
ed
>>> here (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-sfc-control-pl
>>> ane-02-secdir-early-meadows-2015-12-10/).
>>>
>>> 6.  NSH does not share privacy data with non-authorized parties.
>>> Indeed, data carried in context headers are derived from the original
>>> packet (e.g., source IP address) or are already known to the operator
>>> (e.g., subscriber identifier, policy identifier, service identifier). T=
he
>>> context information is shared with nodes that are within the same
>>> administrative domain.
>>>
>>> 7.  Like other communication protocols, attacks from within the network
>>> are possible, but those are soften by relying on the procedures put in
>>> place by operators for testing and validating nodes/features before act=
ual
>>> activation. NSH does not provide a built-in feature to prevent misbehav=
ing
>>> nodes, but recommends to rely on the security features provided by the
>>> underlying transport encapsulation schemes.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Let=E2=80=99s now focus on the typical =E2=80=9Cattacks=E2=80=9D that c=
an be issued from within
>>> the network:
>>>
>>> 1.  A misbehaving node redirect the traffic to non-authorized nodes
>>> outside a domain: This is not NSH-specific.
>>>
>>> 2.  A misbehaving SFC-unware node alters the content of a packet: This
>>> is not NSH-specific.
>>>
>>> 3.  A misbehaving SFC-aware node alters the content of NSH:
>>>
>>>             i.     It removes the NSH header from all packets it sees:
>>> This will imply that the packets, the misbehaving node intercepts, will=
 be
>>> forwarded upstream without invoking the required SFs (which may be seen=
 as
>>> a feature, not a bug if one dislikes =E2=80=9Cmiddleboxes=E2=80=9D :)).=
 More seriously, the
>>> OAM NSH feature will allow an operator to detect whether NSH packets ar=
e
>>> travelling in accordance with SFC instructions of that domain. Running =
that
>>> feature will help detecting the misbehaving node.
>>>
>>>           ii.     It modifies the content of SPI: This will imply that
>>> these packets will be forwarded over a wrong path. Again, running OAM N=
SH
>>> will allow the operator to detect whether a packet is travelling in
>>> accordance with SFC instructions. Running that feature regularly will h=
elp
>>> identifying the misbehaving node and whether the SFC configuration of a
>>> domain is aligned with the expected behavior.
>>>
>>>         iii.     It modifies the content of SI/TTL: This will increase
>>> the authorized maximum SFF/SF hops. Not sure if there is a security pro=
blem
>>> out there.
>>>
>>>           iv.     The misbehaving node is a classifier: The
>>> implications will be severe from a service standpoint. NSH relies on OA=
M
>>> and control-plane to detect such case.
>>>
>>>             v.     The misbehaving node is an SFF: Examples of
>>> misbehaviors are: strip NSH, forward to a non-authorized SF, redirect t=
he
>>> traffic to a non-authorized nodes, etc. Like for the classifier case, N=
SH
>>> relies on OAM and control-plane to detect such case.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Are there specific attacks that are not listed above and that need more
>>> attention from the WG?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Med
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sfc mailing list
>> sfc@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> sfc mailing list
> sfc@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 7:01 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <span dir=3D"l=
tr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">cpignata@ci=
sco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le=
ft:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div>Eric,</div>
<br>
<div><span class=3D"gmail-">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Oct 20, 2017, at 9:45 AM, Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@r=
tfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"gmail-m_-6809793952168446660Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 6:31 AM, Paul Quinn (pau=
lq) <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paulq@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">paulq@cisco.com</a=
>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
Hi Alia,
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><span><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Oct 19, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Alia Atlas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">akatlas@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_7503930141620012431Apple-interch=
ange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Med,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Since you directed this at me, there are efforts to have some discussi=
ons and understand better the particular threats.</div>
<div>Currently, there is no transport with integrity protection that is eve=
n a SHOULD to implement, much less a MUST.=C2=A0 There</div>
<div>is no control-plane defined (beyond the BGP work) that describes detec=
ting issues.=C2=A0 There is no OAM defined and adopted</div>
<div>by the WG that detects or handles these types of attacks. I see the st=
ructure that you are presuming, but none of these are</div>
<div>available as normative references to NSH today.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>OAM does not address the security concern around integrity and devices=
.=C2=A0 If you and the WG believe OAM is the next =E2=80=9Cto do=E2=80=9D f=
or the WG, that=E2=80=99s fine, but it=E2=80=99s orthogonal to the security=
 points raised.</div>
<span>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>I had recommended having a focused interim meeting to make sure that e=
veryone concerned understood the issues and</div>
<div>worked through the threat analysis and possible solutions together.</d=
iv>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>Let=E2=80=99s please not conflate the ongoing security discussion with=
 OAM, or other topics.=C2=A0 The security reality, as you pointed out in yo=
ur email to Eric, is that we, as a community and industry, accept a level o=
f trust wrt network devices.
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I don&#39;t actually think that&#39;s the point of contention, at leas=
t from my perspective. Rather it&#39;s about the level of trust to be place=
d in the networking path through which that data flows.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span><div>Understood. How about this?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 X.2.=C2=A0=C2=A0Trans=
port Encapsulation Security<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0NSH is always encapsulated by an outer transport<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0encapsulation as detailed in Section 4 of this<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0specification, and as depicted in Figure 1.=C2=A0=C2=A0If a=
n operator<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0deems cryptographic integrity protection necessary due to<b=
r>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0their risk analysis, then an outer transport encapsulation<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0that provides such protection [RFC6071], such as=C2=A0IPsec=
, MUST<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0be used.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=
I can&#39;t speak for Kathleen, but I don&#39;t really think this gets the =
job done.</div><div><br></div><div>As described in RFC 3552 (<a href=3D"htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3552#section-3">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc=
3552#section-3</a>) our threat model is that the Internet is untrusted. Tha=
t means we should be designing protocols that are safe to operate in that e=
nvironment, which in this case means that the protocol should either (a) co=
me with a built-in security mechanism or (b) be run over a secure transport=
. I don&#39;t think telling operators &quot;you figure it out&quot; reflect=
s best current practice.</div><div><br></div><div>-Ekr<br></div><div>=C2=A0=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-=
wrap:break-word"><div><div><span class=3D"gmail-HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888=
888"><br>
<br>
</font></span></div><span class=3D"gmail-HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
<div>=E2=80=94 Carlos.</div></font></span><div><div class=3D"gmail-h5">
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>-Ekr</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div>
<div>
<div>=C2=A0The ongoing edits and dialogue with Kathleen and Eric are workin=
g through their concerns.=C2=A0 An interim to talk about next SFC steps, po=
st NSH, is a different matter. =C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-6809793952168446660h5">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>At this point, clearly the most that could happen is a</div>
<div>virtual interim.=C2=A0 There are some background discussions going on.=
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I do not want to assume what mixture will be acceptable to handle the =
security concerns expressed by Kathleen and Eric</div>
<div>and supported by a number of other ADs.<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">I do greatly appreciate your attention and effor=
ts to clarify and try to move this work forward. I have been expressing con=
cerns</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">about the security aspects of this work since RF=
C 7665 went through the publication process - and strongly encouraging seri=
ous</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">WG focus to prevent precisely what has now happe=
ned.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">Regards,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">Alia</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 4:49 AM, <span dir=3D"lt=
r">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">moham=
ed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"FR">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-136=
9485380969758675WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;">Hi Alia,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Can you please share with us the current stat=
us of the document and the list of pending blocking points?<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I went through all public email exchanges, es=
pecially the ones related to security, but it is not that easy to understan=
d what are the remaining issues that need
 fixes.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">In particular, is there a concern with assumi=
ng the current NSH threat model?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-13694=
85380969758675MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span>1.<span style=3D"font-s=
tyle:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-wei=
ght:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family=
:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">NSH is secure against attacks induced by=
 nodes that inject (spoofed) NSH before entering an SFC-enabled domain. Ind=
eed, SFC ingress nodes MUST
 discard packets carrying NSH.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-13694=
85380969758675MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span>2.<span style=3D"font-s=
tyle:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-wei=
ght:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family=
:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">NSH is secure against attacks from withi=
n the SFC-enabled domain to inject non-authorized context headers. From a s=
ervice perspective, the guard
 is the CP which is responsible for instructing the SFC-aware nodes about t=
he mandatory-to-process and optional-to-process context headers. Furthermor=
e, whatever the origin of a supplied context header, the last SFF of a chai=
n (and egress nodes) MUST remove
 the NSH before forwarding upstream.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-13694=
85380969758675MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span>3.<span style=3D"font-s=
tyle:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-wei=
ght:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family=
:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">NSH is secure against leaking privacy in=
formation outside an SFC enabled domain. The last SFF of a chain (and egres=
s nodes) MUST remove the NSH
 before forwarding upstream.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-13694=
85380969758675MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span>4.<span style=3D"font-s=
tyle:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-wei=
ght:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family=
:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">NSH is secure against indefinite SF/SFF =
loops by means of SI and TTL fields.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-13694=
85380969758675MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span>5.<span style=3D"font-s=
tyle:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-wei=
ght:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family=
:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Control plane specific threats are out o=
f scope, but the document cites I-D.ietf-sfc-control-plane for the expected=
 behavior when instructing SFC
 nodes. BTW, the secdir review of the CP requirements can be retrieved here=
 (<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-sfc-control-plane=
-02-secdir-early-meadows-2015-12-10/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker=
.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/review-ietf-sfc-control-pl<wbr>ane-02-secdir-early-meado=
ws-20<wbr>15-12-10/</a>).
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-13694=
85380969758675MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span>6.<span style=3D"font-s=
tyle:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-wei=
ght:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family=
:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">NSH does not share privacy data with non=
-authorized parties. Indeed, data carried in context headers are derived fr=
om the original packet (e.g.,
 source IP address) or are already known to the operator (e.g., subscriber =
identifier, policy identifier, service identifier). The context information=
 is shared with nodes that are within the same administrative domain. =C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-13694=
85380969758675MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span>7.<span style=3D"font-s=
tyle:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-wei=
ght:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family=
:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Like other communication protocols, atta=
cks from within the network are possible, but those are soften by relying o=
n the procedures put in place
 by operators for testing and validating nodes/features before actual activ=
ation. NSH does not provide a built-in feature to prevent misbehaving nodes=
, but recommends to rely on the security features provided by the underlyin=
g transport encapsulation schemes.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Let=E2=80=99s now focus on the typical =E2=80=
=9Cattacks=E2=80=9D that can be issued from within the network:
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-13694=
85380969758675MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span>1.<span style=3D"font-s=
tyle:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-wei=
ght:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family=
:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">A misbehaving node redirect the traffic =
to non-authorized nodes outside a domain: This is not NSH-specific.<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-13694=
85380969758675MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span>2.<span style=3D"font-s=
tyle:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-wei=
ght:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family=
:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">A misbehaving SFC-unware node alters the=
 content of a packet: This is not NSH-specific.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-13694=
85380969758675MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span>3.<span style=3D"font-s=
tyle:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-wei=
ght:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family=
:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">A misbehaving SFC-aware node alters the =
content of NSH:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-13694=
85380969758675MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span><span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures=
:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;fon=
t-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>i.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;fon=
t-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;=
line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">It removes the NSH header from all packe=
ts it sees: This will imply that the packets, the misbehaving node intercep=
ts, will be forwarded upstream
 without invoking the required SFs (which may be seen as a feature, not a b=
ug if one dislikes =E2=80=9Cmiddleboxes=E2=80=9D :)). More seriously, the O=
AM NSH feature will allow an operator to detect whether NSH packets are tra=
velling in accordance with SFC instructions of that
 domain. Running that feature will help detecting the misbehaving node. <u>
</u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-13694=
85380969758675MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span><span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures=
:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;fon=
t-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>ii.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;fo=
nt-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt=
;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">It modifies the content of SPI: This wil=
l imply that these packets will be forwarded over a wrong path. Again, runn=
ing OAM NSH will allow the operator
 to detect whether a packet is travelling in accordance with SFC instructio=
ns. Running that feature regularly will help identifying the misbehaving no=
de and whether the SFC configuration of a domain is aligned with the expect=
ed behavior.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-13694=
85380969758675MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span><span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures=
:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;fon=
t-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>iii.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;f=
ont-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7p=
t;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">It modifies the content of SI/TTL: This =
will increase the authorized maximum SFF/SF hops. Not sure if there is a se=
curity problem out there.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-13694=
85380969758675MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span><span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures=
:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;fon=
t-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>iv.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;fo=
nt-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt=
;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">The misbehaving node is a classifier: Th=
e implications will be severe from a service standpoint. NSH relies on OAM =
and control-plane to detect
 such case. =C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_7503930141620012431gmail-m_-13694=
85380969758675MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72pt">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span><span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures=
:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;fon=
t-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>v.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;fon=
t-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;=
line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">The misbehaving node is an SFF: Examples=
 of misbehaviors are: strip NSH, forward to a non-authorized SF, redirect t=
he traffic to a non-authorized
 nodes, etc. Like for the classifier case, NSH relies on OAM and control-pl=
ane to detect such case. =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Are there specific attacks that are not liste=
d above and that need more attention from the WG?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Thank you.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Med<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
sfc mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/sfc</a><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
sfc mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/sfc</a><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div></div></div>
<br>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--94eb2c14e298b1d168055bfb028a--


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To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
CC: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" <paulq@cisco.com>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
CC: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" <paulq@cisco.com>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Med Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
Thread-Index: AdNItx9sdKdz8ojQTU2+zkDzM6Au0wAdXO4AACcpgAAAAH8cgAAAiuGAAAA/eoAAAFsMAA==
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 14:18:24 +0000
Message-ID: <C614C3FE-AFDC-417E-A8CE-5E47C016DA4D@cisco.com>
References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300A056E39@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <CAG4d1rc9R47rvLPUhLEQsfKNQHT=u2A0S2sKzao5uL3EdTzy1Q@mail.gmail.com> <BC3952F3-9544-4E03-B73C-78AFFD870446@cisco.com> <CABcZeBNptFJyrrbuHjUeaEk3Tz8aqTQYgb8jftF9UQ45U2kMCg@mail.gmail.com> <4A8DB6C5-28CC-41D6-9163-611A58BEC383@cisco.com> <CABcZeBPg_DDALYRFPv6hX2fmFfop0DOD0DJbkGHsJYre2QCKFA@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 07:21:52 -0700
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To: Med Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
Cc: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" <paulq@cisco.com>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>,  Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
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On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 7:12 AM, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:

> Re-,
>
>
>
> Thank you, Eric.
>
>
>
> There is a misunderstanding here. The document does not claim DCs are saf=
e
> and secure environments. What it says is that the NSH specification is
> scoped to be deployed in a single administrative domain with measures to,
> e.g.,:
>
> -    Protect against spoofed data
>
> -    Leaking data outside a domain
>
> -    Detect and prevent indefinite forwarding loop
>
Yes, and my point (and I believe Kathleen's) is that this is not a
realistic operating model given the actual state of the world.


>
>
A single administrative domain is not necessarily a secure or a safe one.
> That=E2=80=99s evident. Attacks from within an administrative domain are =
possible
> with or without NSH.
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99m reiterating my question: what specific attacks built-in/manda=
tory
> integrity mechanisms will solve for the particular case of NSH? Thank you=
.
>

Tampering with the path packets take through the NFC.

-Ekr


>
> Cheers,
>
> Med
>
>
>
> *De :* Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
> *Envoy=C3=A9 :* vendredi 20 octobre 2017 15:56
> *=C3=80 :* BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
> *Cc :* Paul Quinn (paulq); Alia Atlas; Kathleen Moriarty; sfc@ietf.org
>
> *Objet :* Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
>
>
>
> It's explained in detail in my DISCUSS:
>
>
>
> "1. The assumption that the datacenter is a secure environment is not a
>
> reasonable one. As Kathleen and Adam both observer, datacenter
>
> breaches are common and that is why people are moving towards
>
> encryption inside the data center. I see that this draft has text
>
> claiming that this is only to be deployed in safe environments, but we
>
> know that technologies like this get deployed outside the locations
>
> for which we claim they are to be deployed, and there's nothing here
>
> to stop that. Moreover, the whole trend towards cloud computing pushes
>
> us away from designs in which you can safely talk about single secure
>
> zones."
>
>
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 6:51 AM, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Eric,
>
>
>
> Can you please clarify this point: =E2=80=9CRather it's about the level o=
f trust
> to be placed in the networking path through which that data flows.=E2=80=
=9D?
>
>
>
> Sorry if you have already explained it to the editors, but as a WG
> participant I don=E2=80=99t have access to a record of such discussion.
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Med
>
>
>
> *De :* Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
> *Envoy=C3=A9 :* vendredi 20 octobre 2017 15:45
> *=C3=80 :* Paul Quinn (paulq)
> *Cc :* Alia Atlas; BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Kathleen Moriarty;
> sfc@ietf.org
> *Objet :* Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 6:31 AM, Paul Quinn (paulq) <paulq@cisco.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Alia,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 19, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Med,
>
>
>
> Since you directed this at me, there are efforts to have some discussions
> and understand better the particular threats.
>
> Currently, there is no transport with integrity protection that is even a
> SHOULD to implement, much less a MUST.  There
>
> is no control-plane defined (beyond the BGP work) that describes detectin=
g
> issues.  There is no OAM defined and adopted
>
> by the WG that detects or handles these types of attacks. I see the
> structure that you are presuming, but none of these are
>
> available as normative references to NSH today.
>
>
>
>
>
> OAM does not address the security concern around integrity and devices.
> If you and the WG believe OAM is the next =E2=80=9Cto do=E2=80=9D for the=
 WG, that=E2=80=99s fine,
> but it=E2=80=99s orthogonal to the security points raised.
>
>
>
>
>
> I had recommended having a focused interim meeting to make sure that
> everyone concerned understood the issues and
>
> worked through the threat analysis and possible solutions together.
>
>
>
> Let=E2=80=99s please not conflate the ongoing security discussion with OA=
M, or
> other topics.  The security reality, as you pointed out in your email to
> Eric, is that we, as a community and industry, accept a level of trust wr=
t
> network devices.
>
>
>
> I don't actually think that's the point of contention, at least from my
> perspective. Rather it's about the level of trust to be placed in the
> networking path through which that data flows.
>
>
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
>
>
>  The ongoing edits and dialogue with Kathleen and Eric are working throug=
h
> their concerns.  An interim to talk about next SFC steps, post NSH, is a
> different matter.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At this point, clearly the most that could happen is a
>
> virtual interim.  There are some background discussions going on.
>
>
>
> I do not want to assume what mixture will be acceptable to handle the
> security concerns expressed by Kathleen and Eric
>
> and supported by a number of other ADs.
>
>
>
> I do greatly appreciate your attention and efforts to clarify and try to
> move this work forward. I have been expressing concerns
>
> about the security aspects of this work since RFC 7665 went through the
> publication process - and strongly encouraging serious
>
> WG focus to prevent precisely what has now happened.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Alia
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 4:49 AM, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Alia,
>
>
>
> Can you please share with us the current status of the document and the
> list of pending blocking points?
>
>
>
> I went through all public email exchanges, especially the ones related to
> security, but it is not that easy to understand what are the remaining
> issues that need fixes.
>
>
>
> In particular, is there a concern with assuming the current NSH threat
> model?
>
>
>
> 1.  NSH is secure against attacks induced by nodes that inject (spoofed)
> NSH before entering an SFC-enabled domain. Indeed, SFC ingress nodes MUST
> discard packets carrying NSH.
>
> 2.  NSH is secure against attacks from within the SFC-enabled domain to
> inject non-authorized context headers. From a service perspective, the
> guard is the CP which is responsible for instructing the SFC-aware nodes
> about the mandatory-to-process and optional-to-process context headers.
> Furthermore, whatever the origin of a supplied context header, the last S=
FF
> of a chain (and egress nodes) MUST remove the NSH before forwarding
> upstream.
>
> 3.  NSH is secure against leaking privacy information outside an SFC
> enabled domain. The last SFF of a chain (and egress nodes) MUST remove th=
e
> NSH before forwarding upstream.
>
> 4.  NSH is secure against indefinite SF/SFF loops by means of SI and TTL
> fields.
>
> 5.  Control plane specific threats are out of scope, but the document
> cites I-D.ietf-sfc-control-plane for the expected behavior when instructi=
ng
> SFC nodes. BTW, the secdir review of the CP requirements can be retrieved
> here (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-sfc-control-
> plane-02-secdir-early-meadows-2015-12-10/).
>
> 6.  NSH does not share privacy data with non-authorized parties. Indeed,
> data carried in context headers are derived from the original packet (e.g=
.,
> source IP address) or are already known to the operator (e.g., subscriber
> identifier, policy identifier, service identifier). The context informati=
on
> is shared with nodes that are within the same administrative domain.
>
> 7.  Like other communication protocols, attacks from within the network
> are possible, but those are soften by relying on the procedures put in
> place by operators for testing and validating nodes/features before actua=
l
> activation. NSH does not provide a built-in feature to prevent misbehavin=
g
> nodes, but recommends to rely on the security features provided by the
> underlying transport encapsulation schemes.
>
>
>
> Let=E2=80=99s now focus on the typical =E2=80=9Cattacks=E2=80=9D that can=
 be issued from within
> the network:
>
> 1.  A misbehaving node redirect the traffic to non-authorized nodes
> outside a domain: This is not NSH-specific.
>
> 2.  A misbehaving SFC-unware node alters the content of a packet: This is
> not NSH-specific.
>
> 3.  A misbehaving SFC-aware node alters the content of NSH:
>
>             i.     It removes the NSH header from all packets it sees:
> This will imply that the packets, the misbehaving node intercepts, will b=
e
> forwarded upstream without invoking the required SFs (which may be seen a=
s
> a feature, not a bug if one dislikes =E2=80=9Cmiddleboxes=E2=80=9D :)). M=
ore seriously, the
> OAM NSH feature will allow an operator to detect whether NSH packets are
> travelling in accordance with SFC instructions of that domain. Running th=
at
> feature will help detecting the misbehaving node.
>
>           ii.     It modifies the content of SPI: This will imply that
> these packets will be forwarded over a wrong path. Again, running OAM NSH
> will allow the operator to detect whether a packet is travelling in
> accordance with SFC instructions. Running that feature regularly will hel=
p
> identifying the misbehaving node and whether the SFC configuration of a
> domain is aligned with the expected behavior.
>
>         iii.     It modifies the content of SI/TTL: This will increase
> the authorized maximum SFF/SF hops. Not sure if there is a security probl=
em
> out there.
>
>           iv.     The misbehaving node is a classifier: The implications
> will be severe from a service standpoint. NSH relies on OAM and
> control-plane to detect such case.
>
>             v.     The misbehaving node is an SFF: Examples of
> misbehaviors are: strip NSH, forward to a non-authorized SF, redirect the
> traffic to a non-authorized nodes, etc. Like for the classifier case, NSH
> relies on OAM and control-plane to detect such case.
>
>
>
> Are there specific attacks that are not listed above and that need more
> attention from the WG?
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Med
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sfc mailing list
> sfc@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--f4030435b0101c37e8055bfb3403
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 7:12 AM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.boucadair@orange=
.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"FR" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_1654629315529010769WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Re-,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Thank you, Eric.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">There is a misunderstanding her=
e. The document does not claim DCs are safe and secure environments. What i=
t says is that the NSH specification is scoped to
 be deployed in a single administrative domain with measures to, e.g.,:<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_1654629315529010769MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:bla=
ck"><span>-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Protect against spoofed da=
ta<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_1654629315529010769MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:bla=
ck"><span>-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Leaking data outside a dom=
ain<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_1654629315529010769MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:bla=
ck"><span>-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Detect and prevent indefin=
ite forwarding loop</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div>Yes, and my poi=
nt (and I believe Kathleen&#39;s) is that this is not a realistic operating=
 model given the actual state of the world.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"FR" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div =
class=3D"m_1654629315529010769WordSection1"><p class=3D"m_16546293155290107=
69MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"color:black;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;;font-size:10pt">=C2=A0</span></p></div></div></blockquote><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"FR" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div =
class=3D"m_1654629315529010769WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">A single administrative domain =
is not necessarily a secure or a safe one. That=E2=80=99s evident. Attacks =
from within an administrative domain are possible with or
 without NSH.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">I=E2=80=99m reiterating my ques=
tion: what specific attacks built-in/mandatory integrity mechanisms will so=
lve for the particular case of NSH? Thank you.</span></p></div></div></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div>Tampering with the path packets take through the=
 NFC.</div><div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"FR" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D=
"m_1654629315529010769WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN=
-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:bl=
ack"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Med<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De=C2=A0:</span></b><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Eric=
 Rescorla [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtf=
m.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0:</b> vendredi 20 octobre 2017 15:56<br>
<b>=C3=80=C2=A0:</b> BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN<br>
<b>Cc=C2=A0:</b> Paul Quinn (paulq); Alia Atlas; Kathleen Moriarty; <a href=
=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sfc@ietf.org</a></span></p><div>=
<div class=3D"h5"><br>
<b>Objet=C2=A0:</b> Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status<u></u><u></u></div></div><=
p></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It&#39;s explained in detail in my DISCUSS:=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&quot;1. The assumption that the datacenter is a sec=
ure environment is not a<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">r=
easonable one. As Kathleen and Adam both observer, datacenter<u></u><u></u>=
</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">b=
reaches are common and that is why people are moving towards<u></u><u></u><=
/span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">e=
ncryption inside the data center. I see that this draft has text<u></u><u><=
/u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">c=
laiming that this is only to be deployed in safe environments, but we<u></u=
><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">k=
now that technologies like this get deployed outside the locations<u></u><u=
></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">f=
or which we claim they are to be deployed, and there&#39;s nothing here<u><=
/u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">t=
o stop that. Moreover, the whole trend towards cloud computing pushes<u></u=
><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">u=
s away from designs in which you can safely talk about single secure<u></u>=
<u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">z=
ones.&quot;<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">-=
Ekr</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 6:51 AM, &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.boucadair@orange=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Dear Eric,
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Can you please clarify this poi=
nt: =E2=80=9CRather it&#39;s about the level of trust to be placed in the n=
etworking
 path through which that data flows.=E2=80=9D? </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Sorry if you have already expla=
ined it to the editors, but as a WG participant I don=E2=80=99t have access
 to a record of such discussion. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Thank you.</span><u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Cheers,</span><u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Med</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De=C2=A0:</span></b><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Eric=
 Rescorla [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtf=
m.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0:</b> vendredi 20 octobre 2017 15:45<br>
<b>=C3=80=C2=A0:</b> Paul Quinn (paulq)<br>
<b>Cc=C2=A0:</b> Alia Atlas; BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Kathleen Moriarty; =
<a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet=C2=A0:</b> Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 6:31 AM, Paul Quinn (paulq) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paulq@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">paulq@cisco.com</a=
>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Alia,
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Oct 19, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Alia Atlas &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">akatlas@gmail.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Med,
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Since you directed this at me, there are efforts to =
have some discussions and understand better the particular threats.<u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Currently, there is no transport with integrity prot=
ection that is even a SHOULD to implement, much less a MUST.=C2=A0 There<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">is no control-plane defined (beyond the BGP work) th=
at describes detecting issues.=C2=A0 There is no OAM defined and adopted<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">by the WG that detects or handles these types of att=
acks. I see the structure that you are presuming, but none of these are<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">available as normative references to NSH today.<u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OAM does not address the security concern around int=
egrity and devices.=C2=A0 If you and the WG believe OAM is the next =E2=80=
=9Cto do=E2=80=9D for the WG, that=E2=80=99s fine, but it=E2=80=99s orthogo=
nal to the security
 points raised.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I had recommended having a focused interim meeting t=
o make sure that everyone concerned understood the issues and<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">worked through the threat analysis and possible solu=
tions together.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Let=E2=80=99s please not conflate the ongoing securi=
ty discussion with OAM, or other topics.=C2=A0 The security reality, as you=
 pointed out in your email to Eric, is that we, as a community
 and industry, accept a level of trust wrt network devices. <u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don&#39;t actually think that&#39;s the point of c=
ontention, at least from my perspective. Rather it&#39;s about the level of=
 trust to be placed in the networking path through which that
 data flows.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Ekr<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0The ongoing edits and dialogue with Kathleen a=
nd Eric are working through their concerns.=C2=A0 An interim to talk about =
next SFC steps, post NSH, is a different matter. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">At this point, clearly the most that could happen is=
 a<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">virtual interim.=C2=A0 There are some background dis=
cussions going on.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I do not want to assume what mixture will be accepta=
ble to handle the security concerns expressed by Kathleen and Eric<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">and supported by a number of other ADs.<u></u><u></u=
></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I do greatly appreciate your attention and efforts t=
o clarify and try to move this work forward. I have been expressing concern=
s<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">about the security aspects of this work since RFC 76=
65 went through the publication process - and strongly encouraging serious<=
u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">WG focus to prevent precisely what has now happened.=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Alia<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 4:49 AM, &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.boucadair@orange=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Hi Alia,
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Can you please share with us the current st=
atus of the document and the list of pending blocking points?</span><u></u>=
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I went through all public email exchanges, =
especially the ones related to security, but it is not that easy
 to understand what are the remaining issues that need fixes.</span><u></u>=
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">In particular, is there a concern with assu=
ming the current NSH threat model?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431g=
mail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;">1.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">NSH is secure against attacks induced by nodes that inject =
(spoofed) NSH before entering an SFC-enabled domain. Indeed, SFC ingress no=
des MUST discard packets carrying NSH.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431g=
mail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;">2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">NSH is secure against attacks from within the SFC-enabled d=
omain to inject non-authorized context headers. From a service perspective,=
 the guard is the CP which is responsible for
 instructing the SFC-aware nodes about the mandatory-to-process and optiona=
l-to-process context headers. Furthermore, whatever the origin of a supplie=
d context header, the last SFF of a chain (and egress nodes) MUST remove th=
e NSH before forwarding upstream.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431g=
mail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;">3.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">NSH is secure against leaking privacy information outside a=
n SFC enabled domain. The last SFF of a chain (and egress nodes) MUST remov=
e the NSH before forwarding upstream.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431g=
mail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;">4.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">NSH is secure against indefinite SF/SFF loops by means of S=
I and TTL fields.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431g=
mail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;">5.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">Control plane specific threats are out of scope, but the do=
cument cites I-D.ietf-sfc-control-plane for the expected behavior when inst=
ructing SFC nodes. BTW, the secdir review of the
 CP requirements can be retrieved here (<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf=
.org/doc/review-ietf-sfc-control-plane-02-secdir-early-meadows-2015-12-10/"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/review-ietf-sfc-co=
ntrol-<wbr>plane-02-secdir-early-meadows-<wbr>2015-12-10/</a>).
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431g=
mail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;">6.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">NSH does not share privacy data with non-authorized parties=
. Indeed, data carried in context headers are derived from the original pac=
ket (e.g., source IP address) or are already known
 to the operator (e.g., subscriber identifier, policy identifier, service i=
dentifier). The context information is shared with nodes that are within th=
e same administrative domain. =C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431g=
mail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;">7.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">Like other communication protocols, attacks from within the=
 network are possible, but those are soften by relying on the procedures pu=
t in place by operators for testing and validating
 nodes/features before actual activation. NSH does not provide a built-in f=
eature to prevent misbehaving nodes, but recommends to rely on the security=
 features provided by the underlying transport encapsulation schemes.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Let=E2=80=99s now focus on the typical =E2=
=80=9Cattacks=E2=80=9D that can be issued from within the network:
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431g=
mail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;">1.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">A misbehaving node redirect the traffic to non-authorized n=
odes outside a domain: This is not NSH-specific.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431g=
mail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;">2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">A misbehaving SFC-unware node alters the content of a packe=
t: This is not NSH-specific.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431g=
mail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;">3.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">A misbehaving SFC-aware node alters the content of NSH:</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431g=
mail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">i.</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">It removes the NSH header from all packets it sees: This wi=
ll imply that the packets, the misbehaving node intercepts, will be forward=
ed upstream without invoking the required SFs
 (which may be seen as a feature, not a bug if one dislikes =E2=80=9Cmiddle=
boxes=E2=80=9D :)). More seriously, the OAM NSH feature will allow an opera=
tor to detect whether NSH packets are travelling in accordance with SFC ins=
tructions of that domain. Running that feature will
 help detecting the misbehaving node. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431g=
mail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">ii.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">It modifies the content of SPI: This will imply that these =
packets will be forwarded over a wrong path. Again, running OAM NSH will al=
low the operator to detect whether a packet is
 travelling in accordance with SFC instructions. Running that feature regul=
arly will help identifying the misbehaving node and whether the SFC configu=
ration of a domain is aligned with the expected behavior.</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"m_1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431g=
mail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">iii.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fo=
nt-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">It modifies the content of SI/TTL: This will increase the a=
uthorized maximum SFF/SF hops. Not sure if there is a security problem out =
there.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431g=
mail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">iv.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">The misbehaving node is a classifier: The implications will=
 be severe from a service standpoint. NSH relies on OAM and control-plane t=
o detect such case. =C2=A0=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m7503930141620012431g=
mail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">v.</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">The misbehaving node is an SFF: Examples of misbehaviors ar=
e: strip NSH, forward to a non-authorized SF, redirect the traffic to a non=
-authorized nodes, etc. Like for the classifier
 case, NSH relies on OAM and control-plane to detect such case. =C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Are there specific attacks that are not lis=
ted above and that need more attention from the WG?</span><u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Thank you.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Cheers,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Med</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">______________________________<wbr>_________________=
<br>
sfc mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/sfc</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--f4030435b0101c37e8055bfb3403--


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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 07:26:04 -0700
Message-ID: <CABcZeBPOsV1KZT1c4RMgo=uMQpycYBudpHU5TuCr-9U0p4CJ9Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
Cc: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" <paulq@cisco.com>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>,  Med Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>,  Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sfc/Mz8VSl1SToR8fvCf_4s1dVWh4Jo>
Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
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On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 7:18 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:

>
> On Oct 20, 2017, at 10:08 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 7:01 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
> cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>> Eric,
>>
>> On Oct 20, 2017, at 9:45 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 6:31 AM, Paul Quinn (paulq) <paulq@cisco.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Alia,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 19, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Med,
>>>
>>> Since you directed this at me, there are efforts to have some
>>> discussions and understand better the particular threats.
>>> Currently, there is no transport with integrity protection that is even
>>> a SHOULD to implement, much less a MUST.  There
>>> is no control-plane defined (beyond the BGP work) that describes
>>> detecting issues.  There is no OAM defined and adopted
>>> by the WG that detects or handles these types of attacks. I see the
>>> structure that you are presuming, but none of these are
>>> available as normative references to NSH today.
>>>
>>>
>>> OAM does not address the security concern around integrity and devices.
>>> If you and the WG believe OAM is the next =E2=80=9Cto do=E2=80=9D for t=
he WG, that=E2=80=99s fine,
>>> but it=E2=80=99s orthogonal to the security points raised.
>>>
>>>
>>> I had recommended having a focused interim meeting to make sure that
>>> everyone concerned understood the issues and
>>> worked through the threat analysis and possible solutions together.
>>>
>>>
>>> Let=E2=80=99s please not conflate the ongoing security discussion with =
OAM, or
>>> other topics.  The security reality, as you pointed out in your email t=
o
>>> Eric, is that we, as a community and industry, accept a level of trust =
wrt
>>> network devices.
>>>
>>
>> I don't actually think that's the point of contention, at least from my
>> perspective. Rather it's about the level of trust to be placed in the
>> networking path through which that data flows.
>>
>>
>> Understood. How about this?
>>
>>               X.2.  Transport Encapsulation Security
>>
>>                         NSH is always encapsulated by an outer transport
>>                         encapsulation as detailed in Section 4 of this
>>                         specification, and as depicted in Figure 1.  If
>> an operator
>>                         deems cryptographic integrity protection
>> necessary due to
>>                         their risk analysis, then an outer transport
>> encapsulation
>>                         that provides such protection [RFC6071], such
>> as IPsec, MUST
>>                         be used.
>>
>
> I can't speak for Kathleen, but I don't really think this gets the job
> done.
>
> As described in RFC 3552 (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3552#section-3)
> our threat model is that the Internet is untrusted.
>
>
> Yes. Just to clarify, though, NSH is not an end-to-end protocol. It
> doesn=E2=80=99t =E2=80=9Cstart=E2=80=9D in a host and =E2=80=9Cend=E2=80=
=9D in a host/server. It=E2=80=99s
> a network-centric like Provisioned Virtual Private Networks, Traffic
> Engineering, MPLS.
>

Sure, and in this case it's the network between the nodes that is relevant
here.

That means we should be designing protocols that are safe to operate in
> that environment, which in this case means that the protocol should eithe=
r
> (a) come with a built-in security mechanism or (b) be run over a secure
> transport. I don't think telling operators "you figure it out" reflects
> best current practice.
>
>
> But=E2=80=A6 we are saying =E2=80=9Crun over a secure transport=E2=80=9D.
>

Well, that's not what your proposed text says you should do it "If an
operator deems cryptographic integrity protection necessary due to their
risk analysis". If you want to say "this is only specified to run over a
secure transport" then fine, but that's not what this says.

-Ekr



> -Ekr
>
>
>>
>>
>> =E2=80=94 Carlos.
>>
>> -Ekr
>>
>>
>>
>>>  The ongoing edits and dialogue with Kathleen and Eric are working
>>> through their concerns.  An interim to talk about next SFC steps, post =
NSH,
>>> is a different matter.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At this point, clearly the most that could happen is a
>>> virtual interim.  There are some background discussions going on.
>>>
>>> I do not want to assume what mixture will be acceptable to handle the
>>> security concerns expressed by Kathleen and Eric
>>> and supported by a number of other ADs.
>>>
>>> I do greatly appreciate your attention and efforts to clarify and try t=
o
>>> move this work forward. I have been expressing concerns
>>> about the security aspects of this work since RFC 7665 went through the
>>> publication process - and strongly encouraging serious
>>> WG focus to prevent precisely what has now happened.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Alia
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 4:49 AM, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Alia,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Can you please share with us the current status of the document and th=
e
>>>> list of pending blocking points?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I went through all public email exchanges, especially the ones related
>>>> to security, but it is not that easy to understand what are the remain=
ing
>>>> issues that need fixes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In particular, is there a concern with assuming the current NSH threat
>>>> model?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1.  NSH is secure against attacks induced by nodes that inject
>>>> (spoofed) NSH before entering an SFC-enabled domain. Indeed, SFC ingre=
ss
>>>> nodes MUST discard packets carrying NSH.
>>>>
>>>> 2.  NSH is secure against attacks from within the SFC-enabled domain
>>>> to inject non-authorized context headers. From a service perspective, =
the
>>>> guard is the CP which is responsible for instructing the SFC-aware nod=
es
>>>> about the mandatory-to-process and optional-to-process context headers=
.
>>>> Furthermore, whatever the origin of a supplied context header, the las=
t SFF
>>>> of a chain (and egress nodes) MUST remove the NSH before forwarding
>>>> upstream.
>>>>
>>>> 3.  NSH is secure against leaking privacy information outside an SFC
>>>> enabled domain. The last SFF of a chain (and egress nodes) MUST remove=
 the
>>>> NSH before forwarding upstream.
>>>>
>>>> 4.  NSH is secure against indefinite SF/SFF loops by means of SI and
>>>> TTL fields.
>>>>
>>>> 5.  Control plane specific threats are out of scope, but the document
>>>> cites I-D.ietf-sfc-control-plane for the expected behavior when instru=
cting
>>>> SFC nodes. BTW, the secdir review of the CP requirements can be retrie=
ved
>>>> here (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-sfc-control-pl
>>>> ane-02-secdir-early-meadows-2015-12-10/).
>>>>
>>>> 6.  NSH does not share privacy data with non-authorized parties.
>>>> Indeed, data carried in context headers are derived from the original
>>>> packet (e.g., source IP address) or are already known to the operator
>>>> (e.g., subscriber identifier, policy identifier, service identifier). =
The
>>>> context information is shared with nodes that are within the same
>>>> administrative domain.
>>>>
>>>> 7.  Like other communication protocols, attacks from within the
>>>> network are possible, but those are soften by relying on the procedure=
s put
>>>> in place by operators for testing and validating nodes/features before
>>>> actual activation. NSH does not provide a built-in feature to prevent
>>>> misbehaving nodes, but recommends to rely on the security features pro=
vided
>>>> by the underlying transport encapsulation schemes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Let=E2=80=99s now focus on the typical =E2=80=9Cattacks=E2=80=9D that =
can be issued from within
>>>> the network:
>>>>
>>>> 1.  A misbehaving node redirect the traffic to non-authorized nodes
>>>> outside a domain: This is not NSH-specific.
>>>>
>>>> 2.  A misbehaving SFC-unware node alters the content of a packet: This
>>>> is not NSH-specific.
>>>>
>>>> 3.  A misbehaving SFC-aware node alters the content of NSH:
>>>>
>>>>             i.     It removes the NSH header from all packets it sees:
>>>> This will imply that the packets, the misbehaving node intercepts, wil=
l be
>>>> forwarded upstream without invoking the required SFs (which may be see=
n as
>>>> a feature, not a bug if one dislikes =E2=80=9Cmiddleboxes=E2=80=9D :))=
. More seriously, the
>>>> OAM NSH feature will allow an operator to detect whether NSH packets a=
re
>>>> travelling in accordance with SFC instructions of that domain. Running=
 that
>>>> feature will help detecting the misbehaving node.
>>>>
>>>>           ii.     It modifies the content of SPI: This will imply that
>>>> these packets will be forwarded over a wrong path. Again, running OAM =
NSH
>>>> will allow the operator to detect whether a packet is travelling in
>>>> accordance with SFC instructions. Running that feature regularly will =
help
>>>> identifying the misbehaving node and whether the SFC configuration of =
a
>>>> domain is aligned with the expected behavior.
>>>>
>>>>         iii.     It modifies the content of SI/TTL: This will increase
>>>> the authorized maximum SFF/SF hops. Not sure if there is a security pr=
oblem
>>>> out there.
>>>>
>>>>           iv.     The misbehaving node is a classifier: The
>>>> implications will be severe from a service standpoint. NSH relies on O=
AM
>>>> and control-plane to detect such case.
>>>>
>>>>             v.     The misbehaving node is an SFF: Examples of
>>>> misbehaviors are: strip NSH, forward to a non-authorized SF, redirect =
the
>>>> traffic to a non-authorized nodes, etc. Like for the classifier case, =
NSH
>>>> relies on OAM and control-plane to detect such case.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Are there specific attacks that are not listed above and that need mor=
e
>>>> attention from the WG?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Med
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sfc mailing list
>>> sfc@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sfc mailing list
>> sfc@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc
>>
>>
>>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 7:18 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">cpigna=
ta@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddi=
ng-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<br>
<div><div><div class=3D"gmail-h5">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Oct 20, 2017, at 10:08 AM, Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@=
rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"gmail-m_-3825488089660495911Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 7:01 AM, Carlos Pignatar=
o (cpignata)
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">cpignata@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div>Eric,</div>
<br>
<div><span class=3D"gmail-m_-3825488089660495911gmail-">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Oct 20, 2017, at 9:45 AM, Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@r=
tfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"gmail-m_-3825488089660495911gmail-m_-6809793952168446660Apple-=
interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 6:31 AM, Paul Quinn (pau=
lq) <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paulq@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">paulq@cisco.com</a=
>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Hi Alia,
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><span><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Oct 19, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Alia Atlas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">akatlas@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"gmail-m_-3825488089660495911gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_7503=
930141620012431Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Med,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Since you directed this at me, there are efforts to have some discussi=
ons and understand better the particular threats.</div>
<div>Currently, there is no transport with integrity protection that is eve=
n a SHOULD to implement, much less a MUST.=C2=A0 There</div>
<div>is no control-plane defined (beyond the BGP work) that describes detec=
ting issues.=C2=A0 There is no OAM defined and adopted</div>
<div>by the WG that detects or handles these types of attacks. I see the st=
ructure that you are presuming, but none of these are</div>
<div>available as normative references to NSH today.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>OAM does not address the security concern around integrity and devices=
.=C2=A0 If you and the WG believe OAM is the next =E2=80=9Cto do=E2=80=9D f=
or the WG, that=E2=80=99s fine, but it=E2=80=99s orthogonal to the security=
 points raised.</div>
<span>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>I had recommended having a focused interim meeting to make sure that e=
veryone concerned understood the issues and</div>
<div>worked through the threat analysis and possible solutions together.</d=
iv>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>Let=E2=80=99s please not conflate the ongoing security discussion with=
 OAM, or other topics.=C2=A0 The security reality, as you pointed out in yo=
ur email to Eric, is that we, as a community and industry, accept a level o=
f trust wrt network devices.
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I don&#39;t actually think that&#39;s the point of contention, at leas=
t from my perspective. Rather it&#39;s about the level of trust to be place=
d in the networking path through which that data flows.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>Understood. How about this?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 X.2.=C2=A0=C2=A0Trans=
port Encapsulation Security<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0NSH is always encapsulated by an outer transport<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0encapsulation as detailed in Section 4 of this<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0specification, and as depicted in Figure 1.=C2=A0=C2=A0If a=
n operator<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0deems cryptographic integrity protection necessary due to<b=
r>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0their risk analysis, then an outer transport encapsulation<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0that provides such protection [RFC6071], such as=C2=A0IPsec=
, MUST<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0be used.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I can&#39;t speak for Kathleen, but I don&#39;t really think this gets=
 the job done.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As described in RFC 3552 (<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc35=
52#section-3" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>rfc3552#se=
ction-3</a>) our threat model is that the Internet is untrusted.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</div></div><div>Yes. Just to clarify, though, NSH is not an end-to-end pro=
tocol. It doesn=E2=80=99t =E2=80=9Cstart=E2=80=9D in a host and =E2=80=9Cen=
d=E2=80=9D in a host/server. It=E2=80=99s a=C2=A0network-centric like=C2=A0=
Provisioned Virtual Private Networks, Traffic Engineering, MPLS.</div></div=
></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Sure, and in this case it&#39;s the=
 network between the nodes that is relevant here.</div><div><br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-=
word"><div><span class=3D"gmail-">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>That means we should be designing protocols that are safe to operate i=
n that environment, which in this case means that the protocol should eithe=
r (a) come with a built-in security mechanism or (b) be run over a secure t=
ransport. I don&#39;t think
 telling operators &quot;you figure it out&quot; reflects best current prac=
tice.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span><div>But=E2=80=A6 we are saying =E2=80=9Crun over a secure transport=
=E2=80=9D.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Well, that&#39=
;s not what your proposed text says you should do it &quot;If an operator d=
eems cryptographic integrity protection necessary due to their risk analysi=
s&quot;. If you want to say &quot;this is only specified to run over a secu=
re transport&quot; then fine, but that&#39;s not what this says.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div=
><div class=3D"gmail-h5">
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>-Ekr<br>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div>
<div><span class=3D"gmail-m_-3825488089660495911gmail-HOEnZb"><font color=
=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
</font></span></div>
<span class=3D"gmail-m_-3825488089660495911gmail-HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#88=
8888">
<div>=E2=80=94 Carlos.</div>
</font></span>
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-3825488089660495911gmail-h5"><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>-Ekr</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div>
<div>
<div>=C2=A0The ongoing edits and dialogue with Kathleen and Eric are workin=
g through their concerns.=C2=A0 An interim to talk about next SFC steps, po=
st NSH, is a different matter. =C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-3825488089660495911gmail-m_-6809793952168446660h5">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>At this point, clearly the most that could happen is a</div>
<div>virtual interim.=C2=A0 There are some background discussions going on.=
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I do not want to assume what mixture will be acceptable to handle the =
security concerns expressed by Kathleen and Eric</div>
<div>and supported by a number of other ADs.<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">I do greatly appreciate your attention and effor=
ts to clarify and try to move this work forward. I have been expressing con=
cerns</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">about the security aspects of this work since RF=
C 7665 went through the publication process - and strongly encouraging seri=
ous</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">WG focus to prevent precisely what has now happe=
ned.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">Regards,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">Alia</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 4:49 AM, <span dir=3D"lt=
r">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">moham=
ed.boucadair@orange.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"FR">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-3825488089660495911gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_750=
3930141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;">Hi Alia,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Can you please share with us the current stat=
us of the document and the list of pending blocking points?<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I went through all public email exchanges, es=
pecially the ones related to security, but it is not that easy to understan=
d what are the remaining issues that need
 fixes.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">In particular, is there a concern with assumi=
ng the current NSH threat model?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-3825488089660495911gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_75039=
30141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span>1.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatur=
es:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;f=
ont-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">NSH is secure against attacks induced by=
 nodes that inject (spoofed) NSH before entering an SFC-enabled domain. Ind=
eed, SFC ingress nodes MUST
 discard packets carrying NSH.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-3825488089660495911gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_75039=
30141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span>2.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatur=
es:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;f=
ont-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">NSH is secure against attacks from withi=
n the SFC-enabled domain to inject non-authorized context headers. From a s=
ervice perspective, the guard
 is the CP which is responsible for instructing the SFC-aware nodes about t=
he mandatory-to-process and optional-to-process context headers. Furthermor=
e, whatever the origin of a supplied context header, the last SFF of a chai=
n (and egress nodes) MUST remove
 the NSH before forwarding upstream.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-3825488089660495911gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_75039=
30141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span>3.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatur=
es:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;f=
ont-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">NSH is secure against leaking privacy in=
formation outside an SFC enabled domain. The last SFF of a chain (and egres=
s nodes) MUST remove the NSH
 before forwarding upstream.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-3825488089660495911gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_75039=
30141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span>4.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatur=
es:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;f=
ont-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">NSH is secure against indefinite SF/SFF =
loops by means of SI and TTL fields.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-3825488089660495911gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_75039=
30141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span>5.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatur=
es:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;f=
ont-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Control plane specific threats are out o=
f scope, but the document cites I-D.ietf-sfc-control-plane for the expected=
 behavior when instructing SFC
 nodes. BTW, the secdir review of the CP requirements can be retrieved here=
 (<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-sfc-control-plane=
-02-secdir-early-meadows-2015-12-10/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker=
.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/review-ietf-sfc-control-pl<wbr>ane-02-secdir-early-meado=
ws-20<wbr>15-12-10/</a>).
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-3825488089660495911gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_75039=
30141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span>6.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatur=
es:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;f=
ont-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">NSH does not share privacy data with non=
-authorized parties. Indeed, data carried in context headers are derived fr=
om the original packet (e.g.,
 source IP address) or are already known to the operator (e.g., subscriber =
identifier, policy identifier, service identifier). The context information=
 is shared with nodes that are within the same administrative domain. =C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-3825488089660495911gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_75039=
30141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span>7.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatur=
es:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;f=
ont-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Like other communication protocols, atta=
cks from within the network are possible, but those are soften by relying o=
n the procedures put in place
 by operators for testing and validating nodes/features before actual activ=
ation. NSH does not provide a built-in feature to prevent misbehaving nodes=
, but recommends to rely on the security features provided by the underlyin=
g transport encapsulation schemes.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Let=E2=80=99s now focus on the typical =E2=80=
=9Cattacks=E2=80=9D that can be issued from within the network:
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-3825488089660495911gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_75039=
30141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span>1.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatur=
es:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;f=
ont-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">A misbehaving node redirect the traffic =
to non-authorized nodes outside a domain: This is not NSH-specific.<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-3825488089660495911gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_75039=
30141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span>2.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatur=
es:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;f=
ont-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">A misbehaving SFC-unware node alters the=
 content of a packet: This is not NSH-specific.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-3825488089660495911gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_75039=
30141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span>3.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatur=
es:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;f=
ont-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=
=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">A misbehaving SFC-aware node alters the =
content of NSH:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-3825488089660495911gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_75039=
30141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin=
-left:72pt">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span><span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures=
:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;fon=
t-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>i.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;fon=
t-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;=
line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">It removes the NSH header from all packe=
ts it sees: This will imply that the packets, the misbehaving node intercep=
ts, will be forwarded upstream
 without invoking the required SFs (which may be seen as a feature, not a b=
ug if one dislikes =E2=80=9Cmiddleboxes=E2=80=9D :)). More seriously, the O=
AM NSH feature will allow an operator to detect whether NSH packets are tra=
velling in accordance with SFC instructions of that
 domain. Running that feature will help detecting the misbehaving node. <u>
</u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-3825488089660495911gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_75039=
30141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin=
-left:72pt">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span><span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures=
:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;fon=
t-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>ii.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;fo=
nt-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt=
;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">It modifies the content of SPI: This wil=
l imply that these packets will be forwarded over a wrong path. Again, runn=
ing OAM NSH will allow the operator
 to detect whether a packet is travelling in accordance with SFC instructio=
ns. Running that feature regularly will help identifying the misbehaving no=
de and whether the SFC configuration of a domain is aligned with the expect=
ed behavior.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-3825488089660495911gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_75039=
30141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin=
-left:72pt">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span><span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures=
:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;fon=
t-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>iii.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;f=
ont-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7p=
t;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">It modifies the content of SI/TTL: This =
will increase the authorized maximum SFF/SF hops. Not sure if there is a se=
curity problem out there.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-3825488089660495911gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_75039=
30141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin=
-left:72pt">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span><span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures=
:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;fon=
t-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>iv.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;fo=
nt-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt=
;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">The misbehaving node is a classifier: Th=
e implications will be severe from a service standpoint. NSH relies on OAM =
and control-plane to detect
 such case. =C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-3825488089660495911gmail-m_-6809793952168446660m_75039=
30141620012431gmail-m_-1369485380969758675MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin=
-left:72pt">
<u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;"><span><span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures=
:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;fon=
t-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>v.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;fon=
t-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;=
line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">The misbehaving node is an SFF: Examples=
 of misbehaviors are: strip NSH, forward to a non-authorized SF, redirect t=
he traffic to a non-authorized
 nodes, etc. Like for the classifier case, NSH relies on OAM and control-pl=
ane to detect such case. =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Are there specific attacks that are not liste=
d above and that need more attention from the WG?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Thank you.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Med<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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From: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" <paulq@cisco.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
CC: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Med Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
CC: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" <paulq@cisco.com>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
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Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 14:38:44 +0000
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
CC: Med Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, "Paul Quinn (paulq)" <paulq@cisco.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
Thread-Index: AdNItx9sdKdz8ojQTU2+zkDzM6Au0wAdXO4AACcpgAAAAH8cgAAAiuGAAAA/eoAAAFsMAAAARgkAAACEeYA=
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 14:41:03 +0000
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References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300A056E39@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <CAG4d1rc9R47rvLPUhLEQsfKNQHT=u2A0S2sKzao5uL3EdTzy1Q@mail.gmail.com> <BC3952F3-9544-4E03-B73C-78AFFD870446@cisco.com> <CABcZeBNptFJyrrbuHjUeaEk3Tz8aqTQYgb8jftF9UQ45U2kMCg@mail.gmail.com> <4A8DB6C5-28CC-41D6-9163-611A58BEC383@cisco.com> <CABcZeBPg_DDALYRFPv6hX2fmFfop0DOD0DJbkGHsJYre2QCKFA@mail.gmail.com> <C614C3FE-AFDC-417E-A8CE-5E47C016DA4D@cisco.com> <CABcZeBPOsV1KZT1c4RMgo=uMQpycYBudpHU5TuCr-9U0p4CJ9Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 07:45:31 -0700
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To: Med Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
Cc: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" <paulq@cisco.com>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>,  Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
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On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 7:38 AM, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:

> Re-,
>
>
>
> Please see inline.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Med
>
>
>
> *De :* Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
> *Envoy=C3=A9 :* vendredi 20 octobre 2017 16:22
> *=C3=80 :* BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
> *Cc :* Paul Quinn (paulq); Alia Atlas; Kathleen Moriarty; sfc@ietf.org
> *Objet :* Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 7:12 AM, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:
>
> Re-,
>
>
>
> Thank you, Eric.
>
>
>
> There is a misunderstanding here. The document does not claim DCs are saf=
e
> and secure environments. What it says is that the NSH specification is
> scoped to be deployed in a single administrative domain with measures to,
> e.g.,:
>
> -    Protect against spoofed data
>
> -    Leaking data outside a domain
>
> -    Detect and prevent indefinite forwarding loop
>
> Yes, and my point (and I believe Kathleen's) is that this is not a
> realistic operating model given the actual state of the world.
>
>
>
> A single administrative domain is not necessarily a secure or a safe one.
> That=E2=80=99s evident. Attacks from within an administrative domain are =
possible
> with or without NSH.
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99m reiterating my question: what specific attacks built-in/manda=
tory
> integrity mechanisms will solve for the particular case of NSH? Thank you=
.
>
>
>
> Tampering with the path packets take through the NFC.
>
> [Med] Thank you. I have two comments:
>
> -    Such behavior can also be detected by means of SFC OAM in an SFC
> domain. See my first message.
>
> -    Such misbehaving node will act on ALL the traffic, not only NSH. The
> question is why the NSH stamped traffic must be provided with built-in
> integrity feature while the traffic not elected to be forwarded via a
> service chain will be left subject to tampering attacks? Wouldn=E2=80=99t=
 be
> consistent generalize that feature (if provided) to all traffic that is
> transiting for a given domain?
>

The issue here is attacks on the network function itself (e.g., bypassing
or rerouting traffic). Generally, we look to protect the traffic itself via
other mechanisms, preferably end-to-end.

-Ekr


>
>
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Med
>
>
>
> *De :* Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
> *Envoy=C3=A9 :* vendredi 20 octobre 2017 15:56
> *=C3=80 :* BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
> *Cc :* Paul Quinn (paulq); Alia Atlas; Kathleen Moriarty; sfc@ietf.org
>
>
> *Objet :* Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
>
>
>
> It's explained in detail in my DISCUSS:
>
>
>
> "1. The assumption that the datacenter is a secure environment is not a
>
> reasonable one. As Kathleen and Adam both observer, datacenter
>
> breaches are common and that is why people are moving towards
>
> encryption inside the data center. I see that this draft has text
>
> claiming that this is only to be deployed in safe environments, but we
>
> know that technologies like this get deployed outside the locations
>
> for which we claim they are to be deployed, and there's nothing here
>
> to stop that. Moreover, the whole trend towards cloud computing pushes
>
> us away from designs in which you can safely talk about single secure
>
> zones."
>
>
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 6:51 AM, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Eric,
>
>
>
> Can you please clarify this point: =E2=80=9CRather it's about the level o=
f trust
> to be placed in the networking path through which that data flows.=E2=80=
=9D?
>
>
>
> Sorry if you have already explained it to the editors, but as a WG
> participant I don=E2=80=99t have access to a record of such discussion.
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Med
>
>
>
> *De :* Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
> *Envoy=C3=A9 :* vendredi 20 octobre 2017 15:45
> *=C3=80 :* Paul Quinn (paulq)
> *Cc :* Alia Atlas; BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Kathleen Moriarty;
> sfc@ietf.org
> *Objet :* Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 6:31 AM, Paul Quinn (paulq) <paulq@cisco.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Alia,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 19, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Med,
>
>
>
> Since you directed this at me, there are efforts to have some discussions
> and understand better the particular threats.
>
> Currently, there is no transport with integrity protection that is even a
> SHOULD to implement, much less a MUST.  There
>
> is no control-plane defined (beyond the BGP work) that describes detectin=
g
> issues.  There is no OAM defined and adopted
>
> by the WG that detects or handles these types of attacks. I see the
> structure that you are presuming, but none of these are
>
> available as normative references to NSH today.
>
>
>
>
>
> OAM does not address the security concern around integrity and devices.
> If you and the WG believe OAM is the next =E2=80=9Cto do=E2=80=9D for the=
 WG, that=E2=80=99s fine,
> but it=E2=80=99s orthogonal to the security points raised.
>
>
>
>
>
> I had recommended having a focused interim meeting to make sure that
> everyone concerned understood the issues and
>
> worked through the threat analysis and possible solutions together.
>
>
>
> Let=E2=80=99s please not conflate the ongoing security discussion with OA=
M, or
> other topics.  The security reality, as you pointed out in your email to
> Eric, is that we, as a community and industry, accept a level of trust wr=
t
> network devices.
>
>
>
> I don't actually think that's the point of contention, at least from my
> perspective. Rather it's about the level of trust to be placed in the
> networking path through which that data flows.
>
>
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
>
>
>  The ongoing edits and dialogue with Kathleen and Eric are working throug=
h
> their concerns.  An interim to talk about next SFC steps, post NSH, is a
> different matter.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At this point, clearly the most that could happen is a
>
> virtual interim.  There are some background discussions going on.
>
>
>
> I do not want to assume what mixture will be acceptable to handle the
> security concerns expressed by Kathleen and Eric
>
> and supported by a number of other ADs.
>
>
>
> I do greatly appreciate your attention and efforts to clarify and try to
> move this work forward. I have been expressing concerns
>
> about the security aspects of this work since RFC 7665 went through the
> publication process - and strongly encouraging serious
>
> WG focus to prevent precisely what has now happened.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Alia
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 4:49 AM, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Alia,
>
>
>
> Can you please share with us the current status of the document and the
> list of pending blocking points?
>
>
>
> I went through all public email exchanges, especially the ones related to
> security, but it is not that easy to understand what are the remaining
> issues that need fixes.
>
>
>
> In particular, is there a concern with assuming the current NSH threat
> model?
>
>
>
> 1.  NSH is secure against attacks induced by nodes that inject (spoofed)
> NSH before entering an SFC-enabled domain. Indeed, SFC ingress nodes MUST
> discard packets carrying NSH.
>
> 2.  NSH is secure against attacks from within the SFC-enabled domain to
> inject non-authorized context headers. From a service perspective, the
> guard is the CP which is responsible for instructing the SFC-aware nodes
> about the mandatory-to-process and optional-to-process context headers.
> Furthermore, whatever the origin of a supplied context header, the last S=
FF
> of a chain (and egress nodes) MUST remove the NSH before forwarding
> upstream.
>
> 3.  NSH is secure against leaking privacy information outside an SFC
> enabled domain. The last SFF of a chain (and egress nodes) MUST remove th=
e
> NSH before forwarding upstream.
>
> 4.  NSH is secure against indefinite SF/SFF loops by means of SI and TTL
> fields.
>
> 5.  Control plane specific threats are out of scope, but the document
> cites I-D.ietf-sfc-control-plane for the expected behavior when instructi=
ng
> SFC nodes. BTW, the secdir review of the CP requirements can be retrieved
> here (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-sfc-control-
> plane-02-secdir-early-meadows-2015-12-10/).
>
> 6.  NSH does not share privacy data with non-authorized parties. Indeed,
> data carried in context headers are derived from the original packet (e.g=
.,
> source IP address) or are already known to the operator (e.g., subscriber
> identifier, policy identifier, service identifier). The context informati=
on
> is shared with nodes that are within the same administrative domain.
>
> 7.  Like other communication protocols, attacks from within the network
> are possible, but those are soften by relying on the procedures put in
> place by operators for testing and validating nodes/features before actua=
l
> activation. NSH does not provide a built-in feature to prevent misbehavin=
g
> nodes, but recommends to rely on the security features provided by the
> underlying transport encapsulation schemes.
>
>
>
> Let=E2=80=99s now focus on the typical =E2=80=9Cattacks=E2=80=9D that can=
 be issued from within
> the network:
>
> 1.  A misbehaving node redirect the traffic to non-authorized nodes
> outside a domain: This is not NSH-specific.
>
> 2.  A misbehaving SFC-unware node alters the content of a packet: This is
> not NSH-specific.
>
> 3.  A misbehaving SFC-aware node alters the content of NSH:
>
>             i.     It removes the NSH header from all packets it sees:
> This will imply that the packets, the misbehaving node intercepts, will b=
e
> forwarded upstream without invoking the required SFs (which may be seen a=
s
> a feature, not a bug if one dislikes =E2=80=9Cmiddleboxes=E2=80=9D :)). M=
ore seriously, the
> OAM NSH feature will allow an operator to detect whether NSH packets are
> travelling in accordance with SFC instructions of that domain. Running th=
at
> feature will help detecting the misbehaving node.
>
>           ii.     It modifies the content of SPI: This will imply that
> these packets will be forwarded over a wrong path. Again, running OAM NSH
> will allow the operator to detect whether a packet is travelling in
> accordance with SFC instructions. Running that feature regularly will hel=
p
> identifying the misbehaving node and whether the SFC configuration of a
> domain is aligned with the expected behavior.
>
>         iii.     It modifies the content of SI/TTL: This will increase
> the authorized maximum SFF/SF hops. Not sure if there is a security probl=
em
> out there.
>
>           iv.     The misbehaving node is a classifier: The implications
> will be severe from a service standpoint. NSH relies on OAM and
> control-plane to detect such case.
>
>             v.     The misbehaving node is an SFF: Examples of
> misbehaviors are: strip NSH, forward to a non-authorized SF, redirect the
> traffic to a non-authorized nodes, etc. Like for the classifier case, NSH
> relies on OAM and control-plane to detect such case.
>
>
>
> Are there specific attacks that are not listed above and that need more
> attention from the WG?
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Med
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sfc mailing list
> sfc@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--94eb2c07cd7cbf075a055bfb8836
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 7:38 AM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.boucadair@orange=
.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"FR" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_2140810232675053814WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Re-,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Please see inline.<u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Med<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De=C2=A0:</span></b><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Eric=
 Rescorla [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtf=
m.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0:</b> vendredi 20 octobre 2017 16:22<span class=3D""><b=
r>
<b>=C3=80=C2=A0:</b> BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN<br>
<b>Cc=C2=A0:</b> Paul Quinn (paulq); Alia Atlas; Kathleen Moriarty; <a href=
=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet=C2=A0:</b> Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status<u></u><u></u></span></span=
></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 7:12 AM, &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.boucadair@orange=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><span class=3D"">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Re-,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Thank you, Eric.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">There is a misunderstanding her=
e. The document does not claim DCs are safe and secure environments.
 What it says is that the NSH specification is scoped to be deployed in a s=
ingle administrative domain with measures to, e.g.,:</span><u></u><u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"m_2140810232675053814m1654629315529010769msolistparagraph"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&qu=
ot;;color:black">-</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;colo=
r:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;;color:black">Protect against spoofed data</span><u></u><u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"m_2140810232675053814m1654629315529010769msolistparagraph"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&qu=
ot;;color:black">-</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;colo=
r:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;;color:black">Leaking data outside a domain</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"m_2140810232675053814m1654629315529010769msolistparagraph"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&qu=
ot;;color:black">-</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;colo=
r:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;;color:black">Detect and prevent indefinite forwarding loop</=
span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Yes, and my point (and I believ=
e Kathleen&#39;s) is that this is not a realistic operating model given the=
 actual state of the world.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"m_2140810232675053814m1654629315529010769msolistparagraph"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&qu=
ot;;color:black">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">A single administrative domain =
is not necessarily a secure or a safe one. That=E2=80=99s evident. Attacks
 from within an administrative domain are possible with or without NSH.</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">I=E2=80=99m reiterating my ques=
tion: what specific attacks built-in/mandatory integrity mechanisms will
 solve for the particular case of NSH? Thank you.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</span><div><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Tampering with the path packets take through the NFC=
.<u></u><u></u></p>
</span><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">[Med] Thank you. I have =
two comments:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_2140810232675053814MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:bla=
ck"><span>-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Such behavior can also be =
detected by means of SFC OAM in an SFC domain. See my first message.<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_2140810232675053814MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:bla=
ck"><span>-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Such misbehaving node will=
 act on ALL the traffic, not only NSH. The question is why the NSH stamped =
traffic must be provided with built-in integrity
 feature while the traffic not elected to be forwarded via a service chain =
will be left subject to tampering attacks?=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color=
:black;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;font-size:10pt">Wouldn=E2=80=99t=
 be consistent generalize that feature (if provided) to all traffic that is=
 transiting for a given domain?</span></p></div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The issue here is attacks on the =
network function itself (e.g., bypassing or rerouting traffic). Generally, =
we look to protect the traffic itself via other mechanisms, preferably end-=
to-end.</div><div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"FR" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D=
"m_2140810232675053814WordSection1"><div style=3D"border:none;border-left:s=
olid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt"><div><div><div><div><p class=3D"=
m_2140810232675053814MsoListParagraph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">-Ekr<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Cheers,</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Med</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De=C2=A0:</span></b><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Eric
 Rescorla [mailto:</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=
=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"EN-US">ekr@rtfm.com</span></a></span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">]
<br>
<b>Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0:</b> vendr</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">edi 20 octobre 2017 15:56=
<br>
<b>=C3=80=C2=A0:</b> BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN<br>
<b>Cc=C2=A0:</b> Paul Quinn (paulq); Alia Atlas; Kathleen Moriarty; <a href=
=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
sfc@ietf.org</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Objet=C2=A0:</b> Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It&#39;s explained in detail in my DISCUSS:=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&quot;1. The assumption that the datacenter is a sec=
ure environment is not a<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">r=
easonable one. As Kathleen and Adam both observer, datacenter</span><u></u>=
<u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">b=
reaches are common and that is why people are moving towards</span><u></u><=
u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">e=
ncryption inside the data center. I see that this draft has text</span><u><=
/u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">c=
laiming that this is only to be deployed in safe environments, but we</span=
><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">k=
now that technologies like this get deployed outside the locations</span><u=
></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">f=
or which we claim they are to be deployed, and there&#39;s nothing here</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">t=
o stop that. Moreover, the whole trend towards cloud computing pushes</span=
><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">u=
s away from designs in which you can safely talk about single secure</span>=
<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">z=
ones.&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">-=
Ekr</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 6:51 AM, &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.boucadair@orange=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Dear Eric,
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Can you please clarify this poi=
nt: =E2=80=9CRather it&#39;s about the level of trust to be placed in the n=
etworking
 path through which that data flows.=E2=80=9D? </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Sorry if you have already expla=
ined it to the editors, but as a WG participant I don=E2=80=99t have access
 to a record of such discussion. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Thank you.</span><u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Cheers,</span><u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">Med</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De=C2=A0:</span></b><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Eric=
 Rescorla [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtf=
m.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0:</b> vendredi 20 octobre 2017 15:45<br>
<b>=C3=80=C2=A0:</b> Paul Quinn (paulq)<br>
<b>Cc=C2=A0:</b> Alia Atlas; BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Kathleen Moriarty; =
<a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Objet=C2=A0:</b> Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 6:31 AM, Paul Quinn (paulq) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paulq@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">paulq@cisco.com</a=
>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Alia,
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Oct 19, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Alia Atlas &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">akatlas@gmail.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Med,
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Since you directed this at me, there are efforts to =
have some discussions and understand better the particular threats.<u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Currently, there is no transport with integrity prot=
ection that is even a SHOULD to implement, much less a MUST.=C2=A0 There<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">is no control-plane defined (beyond the BGP work) th=
at describes detecting issues.=C2=A0 There is no OAM defined and adopted<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">by the WG that detects or handles these types of att=
acks. I see the structure that you are presuming, but none of these are<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">available as normative references to NSH today.<u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OAM does not address the security concern around int=
egrity and devices.=C2=A0 If you and the WG believe OAM is the next =E2=80=
=9Cto do=E2=80=9D for the WG, that=E2=80=99s fine, but it=E2=80=99s orthogo=
nal to the security
 points raised.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I had recommended having a focused interim meeting t=
o make sure that everyone concerned understood the issues and<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">worked through the threat analysis and possible solu=
tions together.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Let=E2=80=99s please not conflate the ongoing securi=
ty discussion with OAM, or other topics.=C2=A0 The security reality, as you=
 pointed out in your email to Eric, is that we, as a community
 and industry, accept a level of trust wrt network devices. <u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don&#39;t actually think that&#39;s the point of c=
ontention, at least from my perspective. Rather it&#39;s about the level of=
 trust to be placed in the networking path through which that
 data flows.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Ekr<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0The ongoing edits and dialogue with Kathleen a=
nd Eric are working through their concerns.=C2=A0 An interim to talk about =
next SFC steps, post NSH, is a different matter. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">At this point, clearly the most that could happen is=
 a<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">virtual interim.=C2=A0 There are some background dis=
cussions going on.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I do not want to assume what mixture will be accepta=
ble to handle the security concerns expressed by Kathleen and Eric<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">and supported by a number of other ADs.<u></u><u></u=
></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I do greatly appreciate your attention and efforts t=
o clarify and try to move this work forward. I have been expressing concern=
s<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">about the security aspects of this work since RFC 76=
65 went through the publication process - and strongly encouraging serious<=
u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">WG focus to prevent precisely what has now happened.=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Alia<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 4:49 AM, &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.boucadair@orange=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Hi Alia,
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Can you please share with us the current st=
atus of the document and the list of pending blocking points?</span><u></u>=
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">I went through all public email exchanges, =
especially the ones related to security, but it is not that easy
 to understand what are the remaining issues that need fixes.</span><u></u>=
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">In particular, is there a concern with assu=
ming the current NSH threat model?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_2140810232675053814m1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m=
7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;">1.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">NSH is secure against attacks induced by nodes that inject =
(spoofed) NSH before entering an SFC-enabled domain. Indeed, SFC ingress no=
des MUST discard packets carrying NSH.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_2140810232675053814m1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m=
7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;">2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">NSH is secure against attacks from within the SFC-enabled d=
omain to inject non-authorized context headers. From a service perspective,=
 the guard is the CP which is responsible for
 instructing the SFC-aware nodes about the mandatory-to-process and optiona=
l-to-process context headers. Furthermore, whatever the origin of a supplie=
d context header, the last SFF of a chain (and egress nodes) MUST remove th=
e NSH before forwarding upstream.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_2140810232675053814m1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m=
7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;">3.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">NSH is secure against leaking privacy information outside a=
n SFC enabled domain. The last SFF of a chain (and egress nodes) MUST remov=
e the NSH before forwarding upstream.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_2140810232675053814m1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m=
7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;">4.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">NSH is secure against indefinite SF/SFF loops by means of S=
I and TTL fields.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_2140810232675053814m1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m=
7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;">5.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">Control plane specific threats are out of scope, but the do=
cument cites I-D.ietf-sfc-control-plane for the expected behavior when inst=
ructing SFC nodes. BTW, the secdir review of the
 CP requirements can be retrieved here (<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf=
.org/doc/review-ietf-sfc-control-plane-02-secdir-early-meadows-2015-12-10/"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/review-ietf-sfc-co=
ntrol-<wbr>plane-02-secdir-early-meadows-<wbr>2015-12-10/</a>).
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_2140810232675053814m1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m=
7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;">6.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">NSH does not share privacy data with non-authorized parties=
. Indeed, data carried in context headers are derived from the original pac=
ket (e.g., source IP address) or are already known
 to the operator (e.g., subscriber identifier, policy identifier, service i=
dentifier). The context information is shared with nodes that are within th=
e same administrative domain. =C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_2140810232675053814m1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m=
7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;">7.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">Like other communication protocols, attacks from within the=
 network are possible, but those are soften by relying on the procedures pu=
t in place by operators for testing and validating
 nodes/features before actual activation. NSH does not provide a built-in f=
eature to prevent misbehaving nodes, but recommends to rely on the security=
 features provided by the underlying transport encapsulation schemes.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Let=E2=80=99s now focus on the typical =E2=
=80=9Cattacks=E2=80=9D that can be issued from within the network:
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_2140810232675053814m1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m=
7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;">1.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">A misbehaving node redirect the traffic to non-authorized n=
odes outside a domain: This is not NSH-specific.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_2140810232675053814m1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m=
7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;">2.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">A misbehaving SFC-unware node alters the content of a packe=
t: This is not NSH-specific.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_2140810232675053814m1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m=
7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;">3.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">A misbehaving SFC-aware node alters the content of NSH:</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_2140810232675053814m1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m=
7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph" style=3D"ma=
rgin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">i.</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">It removes the NSH header from all packets it sees: This wi=
ll imply that the packets, the misbehaving node intercepts, will be forward=
ed upstream without invoking the required SFs
 (which may be seen as a feature, not a bug if one dislikes =E2=80=9Cmiddle=
boxes=E2=80=9D :)). More seriously, the OAM NSH feature will allow an opera=
tor to detect whether NSH packets are travelling in accordance with SFC ins=
tructions of that domain. Running that feature will
 help detecting the misbehaving node. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_2140810232675053814m1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m=
7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph" style=3D"ma=
rgin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">ii.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">It modifies the content of SPI: This will imply that these =
packets will be forwarded over a wrong path. Again, running OAM NSH will al=
low the operator to detect whether a packet is
 travelling in accordance with SFC instructions. Running that feature regul=
arly will help identifying the misbehaving node and whether the SFC configu=
ration of a domain is aligned with the expected behavior.</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"m_2140810232675053814m1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m=
7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph" style=3D"ma=
rgin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">iii.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fo=
nt-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">It modifies the content of SI/TTL: This will increase the a=
uthorized maximum SFF/SF hops. Not sure if there is a security problem out =
there.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_2140810232675053814m1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m=
7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph" style=3D"ma=
rgin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">iv.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">The misbehaving node is a classifier: The implications will=
 be severe from a service standpoint. NSH relies on OAM and control-plane t=
o detect such case. =C2=A0=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_2140810232675053814m1654629315529010769m-7370675272850075378m=
7503930141620012431gmail-m-1369485380969758675msolistparagraph" style=3D"ma=
rgin-left:72.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">v.</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">The misbehaving node is an SFF: Examples of misbehaviors ar=
e: strip NSH, forward to a non-authorized SF, redirect the traffic to a non=
-authorized nodes, etc. Like for the classifier
 case, NSH relies on OAM and control-plane to detect such case. =C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Are there specific attacks that are not lis=
ted above and that need more attention from the WG?</span><u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Thank you.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Cheers,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Med</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">______________________________<wbr>_________________=
<br>
sfc mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/sfc</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div></div></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--94eb2c07cd7cbf075a055bfb8836--


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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
CC: Med Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, "Paul Quinn (paulq)" <paulq@cisco.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 07:50:59 -0700
Message-ID: <CABcZeBNj27zTpkBGMoRLGPwFX+JQ91xa7j1-A1PJtTr6e2G39w@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" <paulq@cisco.com>
Cc: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>,  Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>,  Med Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>,  Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
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Well, I see how you can feel that way, but on the other hand, Proposed
Standard is supposed to be for documents which, to quote RFC 2026  "A
Proposed Standard should have no known technical omissions with respect to
the requirements placed upon it." and a number of IETF documents
memorializing a threat model in which NSH is not a safe design. I
appreciate that you feel that that threat model is not applicable here, but
I don't agree, and I think the number of DISCUSSes on this document
suggests I'm not the only one.

In any case, I don't think going back and forth in email is productive
here. I'm happy to do this live in Singapore or on a phone call where the
other people who filed DISCUSSes can also attend.

-Ekr


On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 7:37 AM, Paul Quinn (paulq) <paulq@cisco.com> wrote=
:

>
>
> On Oct 20, 2017, at 10:26 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 7:18 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
> cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Oct 20, 2017, at 10:08 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 7:01 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
>> cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Eric,
>>>
>>> On Oct 20, 2017, at 9:45 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 6:31 AM, Paul Quinn (paulq) <paulq@cisco.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Alia,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 19, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Med,
>>>>
>>>> Since you directed this at me, there are efforts to have some
>>>> discussions and understand better the particular threats.
>>>> Currently, there is no transport with integrity protection that is eve=
n
>>>> a SHOULD to implement, much less a MUST.  There
>>>> is no control-plane defined (beyond the BGP work) that describes
>>>> detecting issues.  There is no OAM defined and adopted
>>>> by the WG that detects or handles these types of attacks. I see the
>>>> structure that you are presuming, but none of these are
>>>> available as normative references to NSH today.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> OAM does not address the security concern around integrity and
>>>> devices.  If you and the WG believe OAM is the next =E2=80=9Cto do=E2=
=80=9D for the WG,
>>>> that=E2=80=99s fine, but it=E2=80=99s orthogonal to the security point=
s raised.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I had recommended having a focused interim meeting to make sure that
>>>> everyone concerned understood the issues and
>>>> worked through the threat analysis and possible solutions together.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Let=E2=80=99s please not conflate the ongoing security discussion with=
 OAM, or
>>>> other topics.  The security reality, as you pointed out in your email =
to
>>>> Eric, is that we, as a community and industry, accept a level of trust=
 wrt
>>>> network devices.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't actually think that's the point of contention, at least from my
>>> perspective. Rather it's about the level of trust to be placed in the
>>> networking path through which that data flows.
>>>
>>>
>>> Understood. How about this?
>>>
>>>               X.2.  Transport Encapsulation Security
>>>
>>>                         NSH is always encapsulated by an outer transpor=
t
>>>                         encapsulation as detailed in Section 4 of this
>>>                         specification, and as depicted in Figure 1.  If
>>> an operator
>>>                         deems cryptographic integrity protection
>>> necessary due to
>>>                         their risk analysis, then an outer transport
>>> encapsulation
>>>                         that provides such protection [RFC6071], such
>>> as IPsec, MUST
>>>                         be used.
>>>
>>
>> I can't speak for Kathleen, but I don't really think this gets the job
>> done.
>>
>> As described in RFC 3552 (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3552#section-3)
>> our threat model is that the Internet is untrusted.
>>
>>
>> Yes. Just to clarify, though, NSH is not an end-to-end protocol. It
>> doesn=E2=80=99t =E2=80=9Cstart=E2=80=9D in a host and =E2=80=9Cend=E2=80=
=9D in a host/server. It=E2=80=99s
>> a network-centric like Provisioned Virtual Private Networks, Traffic
>> Engineering, MPLS.
>>
>
> Sure, and in this case it's the network between the nodes that is relevan=
t
> here.
>
> That means we should be designing protocols that are safe to operate in
>> that environment, which in this case means that the protocol should eith=
er
>> (a) come with a built-in security mechanism or (b) be run over a secure
>> transport. I don't think telling operators "you figure it out" reflects
>> best current practice.
>>
>>
>> But=E2=80=A6 we are saying =E2=80=9Crun over a secure transport=E2=80=9D=
.
>>
>
> Well, that's not what your proposed text says you should do it "If an
> operator deems cryptographic integrity protection necessary due to their
> risk analysis". If you want to say "this is only specified to run over a
> secure transport" then fine, but that's not what this says.
>
>
> This ignore the reality of running a network: creating largely
> unrealizable security requirements simply results relegating security to
> something ignored.  IMO, we =E2=80=94 the IETF =E2=80=94 are far better o=
ff with a
> pragmatic approach: document the risk and provide possible mitigations.
> From there, if the risks are deemed sufficient, an operator has guidance.
> Frankly, this is the only way network protocols (e.g. MPLS, SPRING, SFC,
> etc.) will be viable.  In fact, the BIER secdir reviewer took exactly thi=
s
> stance:
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-bier-mpls-
> encapsulation-09-secdir-telechat-atkins-2017-10-19/
>
>
> <trimmed>
>
>
>

--94eb2c14e29840a4b4055bfb9c22
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Well, I see how you can feel that way, but on the other ha=
nd, Proposed Standard is supposed to be for documents which, to quote RFC 2=
026=C2=A0 &quot;A Proposed Standard should have no known technical omission=
s with respect to the requirements placed upon it.&quot; and a number of IE=
TF documents memorializing a threat model in which NSH is not a safe design=
. I appreciate that you feel that that threat model is not applicable here,=
 but I don&#39;t agree, and I think the number of DISCUSSes on this documen=
t suggests I&#39;m not the only one.<div><br></div><div>In any case, I don&=
#39;t think going back and forth in email is productive here. I&#39;m happy=
 to do this live in Singapore or on a phone call where the other people who=
 filed DISCUSSes can also attend.</div><div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div><=
br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On=
 Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 7:37 AM, Paul Quinn (paulq) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:paulq@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">paulq@cisco.com</a>&gt;</=
span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div><div =
class=3D"h5">
<br>
<div><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Oct 20, 2017, at 10:26 AM, Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@=
rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"m_3130652686229058989Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 7:18 AM, Carlos Pignatar=
o (cpignata)
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">cpignata@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><br>
<div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_3130652686229058989gmail-h5">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Oct 20, 2017, at 10:08 AM, Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@=
rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"m_3130652686229058989gmail-m_-3825488089660495911Apple-interch=
ange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 7:01 AM, Carlos Pignatar=
o (cpignata)
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">cpignata@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div>Eric,</div>
<br>
<div><span class=3D"m_3130652686229058989gmail-m_-3825488089660495911gmail-=
">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Oct 20, 2017, at 9:45 AM, Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@r=
tfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"m_3130652686229058989gmail-m_-3825488089660495911gmail-m_-6809=
793952168446660Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 6:31 AM, Paul Quinn (pau=
lq) <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:paulq@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">paulq@cisco.com</a=
>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Hi Alia,
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><span><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Oct 19, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Alia Atlas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">akatlas@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"m_3130652686229058989gmail-m_-3825488089660495911gmail-m_-6809=
793952168446660m_7503930141620012431Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Med,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Since you directed this at me, there are efforts to have some discussi=
ons and understand better the particular threats.</div>
<div>Currently, there is no transport with integrity protection that is eve=
n a SHOULD to implement, much less a MUST.=C2=A0 There</div>
<div>is no control-plane defined (beyond the BGP work) that describes detec=
ting issues.=C2=A0 There is no OAM defined and adopted</div>
<div>by the WG that detects or handles these types of attacks. I see the st=
ructure that you are presuming, but none of these are</div>
<div>available as normative references to NSH today.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>OAM does not address the security concern around integrity and devices=
.=C2=A0 If you and the WG believe OAM is the next =E2=80=9Cto do=E2=80=9D f=
or the WG, that=E2=80=99s fine, but it=E2=80=99s orthogonal to the security=
 points raised.</div>
<span>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>I had recommended having a focused interim meeting to make sure that e=
veryone concerned understood the issues and</div>
<div>worked through the threat analysis and possible solutions together.</d=
iv>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>Let=E2=80=99s please not conflate the ongoing security discussion with=
 OAM, or other topics.=C2=A0 The security reality, as you pointed out in yo=
ur email to Eric, is that we, as a community and industry, accept a level o=
f trust wrt network devices.
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I don&#39;t actually think that&#39;s the point of contention, at leas=
t from my perspective. Rather it&#39;s about the level of trust to be place=
d in the networking path through which that data flows.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>Understood. How about this?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 X.2.=C2=A0=C2=A0Trans=
port Encapsulation Security<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0NSH is always encapsulated by an outer transport<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0encapsulation as detailed in Section 4 of this<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0specification, and as depicted in Figure 1.=C2=A0=C2=A0If a=
n operator<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0deems cryptographic integrity protection necessary due to<b=
r>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0their risk analysis, then an outer transport encapsulation<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0that provides such protection [RFC6071], such as=C2=A0IPsec=
, MUST<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0be used.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I can&#39;t speak for Kathleen, but I don&#39;t really think this gets=
 the job done.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As described in RFC 3552 (<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc35=
52#section-3" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/r<wbr>fc3552#se=
ction-3</a>) our threat model is that the Internet is untrusted.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>Yes. Just to clarify, though, NSH is not an end-to-end protocol. It do=
esn=E2=80=99t =E2=80=9Cstart=E2=80=9D in a host and =E2=80=9Cend=E2=80=9D i=
n a host/server. It=E2=80=99s a=C2=A0network-centric like=C2=A0Provisioned =
Virtual Private Networks, Traffic Engineering, MPLS.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sure, and in this case it&#39;s the network between the nodes that is =
relevant here.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div><span class=3D"m_3130652686229058989gmail-">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>That means we should be designing protocols that are safe to operate i=
n that environment, which in this case means that the protocol should eithe=
r (a) come with a built-in security mechanism or (b) be run over a secure t=
ransport. I don&#39;t think
 telling operators &quot;you figure it out&quot; reflects best current prac=
tice.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>But=E2=80=A6 we are saying =E2=80=9Crun over a secure transport=E2=80=
=9D.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Well, that&#39;s not what your proposed text says you should do it &qu=
ot;If an operator deems cryptographic integrity protection necessary due to=
 their risk analysis&quot;. If you want to say &quot;this is only specified=
 to run over a secure transport&quot; then fine,
 but that&#39;s not what this says.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</div></div><div>This ignore the reality of running a network: creating lar=
gely unrealizable security requirements simply results relegating security =
to something ignored.=C2=A0 IMO, we =E2=80=94 the IETF =E2=80=94 are far be=
tter off with a pragmatic approach: document the risk and provide
 possible mitigations.=C2=A0 From there, if the risks are deemed sufficient=
, an operator has guidance.=C2=A0 Frankly, this is the only way network pro=
tocols (e.g. MPLS, SPRING, SFC, etc.) will be viable.=C2=A0 In fact, the BI=
ER secdir reviewer took exactly this stance:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-bier-mpls-enca=
psulation-09-secdir-telechat-atkins-2017-10-19/" target=3D"_blank">https://=
datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/review-ietf-bier-mpls-<wbr>encapsulation-09-s=
ecdir-<wbr>telechat-atkins-2017-10-19/</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&lt;trimmed&gt;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--94eb2c14e29840a4b4055bfb9c22--


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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
CC: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" <paulq@cisco.com>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
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Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 14:54:18 +0000
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Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
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From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 11:02:32 -0400
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To: "<mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
Cc: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "Paul Quinn (paulq)" <paulq@cisco.com>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
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Hi,

I think one of the important points to note is that adding E2E
encryption doesn't make sense here.  You would only have on the wire
protection and not on the boxes that might be compromised.  The NSH is
modified at many points along the path as well, so providing integrity
protection of the NSH is also a hard problem.

In a separate thread, I worked through some suggestions that should
appear in the next revision.  They will be making the security
considerations more clear on options and pit falls.  There is a
possibility to do path assurance (but, I'm told it's hard). Language
will also be added to suggest the use of continuous audits -
essentially that term means regular verification of the security
controls that assure the security posture of devices.

They also agreed to note the typical assumption of a zero trust model
and the reliance in routing on distributed computing and therefore
'trust'.

Let's see how that evolves and we're getting closer.  I'd like to see
routing protocols include more security, but minimally that the
considerations are fully listed with mitigations.

Best regards,
Kathleen

On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 10:54 AM,  <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:
> Re-,
>
>
>
> Please see inline.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Med
>
>
>
> De : Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
> Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 20 octobre 2017 16:46
>
>
> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
> Cc : Paul Quinn (paulq); Alia Atlas; Kathleen Moriarty; sfc@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 7:38 AM, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:
>
> Re-,
>
>
>
> Please see inline.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Med
>
>
>
> De : Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
> Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 20 octobre 2017 16:22
> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
> Cc : Paul Quinn (paulq); Alia Atlas; Kathleen Moriarty; sfc@ietf.org
> Objet : Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 7:12 AM, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:
>
> Re-,
>
>
>
> Thank you, Eric.
>
>
>
> There is a misunderstanding here. The document does not claim DCs are saf=
e
> and secure environments. What it says is that the NSH specification is
> scoped to be deployed in a single administrative domain with measures to,
> e.g.,:
>
> -    Protect against spoofed data
>
> -    Leaking data outside a domain
>
> -    Detect and prevent indefinite forwarding loop
>
> Yes, and my point (and I believe Kathleen's) is that this is not a realis=
tic
> operating model given the actual state of the world.
>
>
>
> A single administrative domain is not necessarily a secure or a safe one.
> That=E2=80=99s evident. Attacks from within an administrative domain are =
possible
> with or without NSH.
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99m reiterating my question: what specific attacks built-in/manda=
tory
> integrity mechanisms will solve for the particular case of NSH? Thank you=
.
>
>
>
> Tampering with the path packets take through the NFC.
>
> [Med] Thank you. I have two comments:
>
> -    Such behavior can also be detected by means of SFC OAM in an SFC
> domain. See my first message.
>
> -    Such misbehaving node will act on ALL the traffic, not only NSH. The
> question is why the NSH stamped traffic must be provided with built-in
> integrity feature while the traffic not elected to be forwarded via a
> service chain will be left subject to tampering attacks? Wouldn=E2=80=99t=
 be
> consistent generalize that feature (if provided) to all traffic that is
> transiting for a given domain?
>
>
>
> The issue here is attacks on the network function itself (e.g., bypassing=
 or
> rerouting traffic).
>
> [Med] Yes, I got that. It corresponds to what I have described earlier:
>
>
>
> 1.  A misbehaving SFC-aware node alters the content of NSH:
>
> =C2=B7         It removes the NSH header from all packets it sees: This w=
ill
> imply that the packets, the misbehaving node intercepts, will be forwarde=
d
> upstream without invoking the required SFs (which may be seen as a featur=
e,
> not a bug if one dislikes =E2=80=9Cmiddleboxes=E2=80=9D :)). More serious=
ly, the OAM NSH
> feature will allow an operator to detect whether NSH packets are travelli=
ng
> in accordance with SFC instructions of that domain. Running that feature
> will help detecting the misbehaving node.
>
> =C2=B7         It modifies the content of SPI: This will imply that these=
 packets
> will be forwarded over a wrong path. Again, running OAM NSH will allow th=
e
> operator to detect whether a packet is travelling in accordance with SFC
> instructions. Running that feature regularly will help identifying the
> misbehaving node and whether the SFC configuration of a domain is aligned
> with the expected behavior.
>
> =C2=B7         It modifies the content of SI/TTL: This will increase the
> authorized maximum SFF/SF hops. Not sure if there is a security problem o=
ut
> there.
>
> =C2=B7         The misbehaving node is a classifier: The implications wil=
l be
> severe from a service standpoint. NSH relies on OAM and control-plane to
> detect such case.
>
> =C2=B7         The misbehaving node is an SFF: Examples of misbehaviors a=
re:
> strip NSH, forward to a non-authorized SF, redirect the traffic to a
> non-authorized nodes, etc. Like for the classifier case, NSH relies on OA=
M
> and control-plane to detect such case.
>
>
>
> Do you think that current security considerations need call out these ite=
ms
> explicitly?
>
>
>
> Generally, we look to protect the traffic itself via other mechanisms,
> preferably end-to-end.
>
> [Med] NSH does not interfere with end-to-end security mechanisms. NSH wil=
l
> supply some data for service-derived forwarding and then strip that data
> before forwarding outside the domain.
>
>
>
>
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Med
>
>
>
> De : Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
> Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 20 octobre 2017 15:56
> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN
> Cc : Paul Quinn (paulq); Alia Atlas; Kathleen Moriarty; sfc@ietf.org
>
>
> Objet : Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
>
>
>
> It's explained in detail in my DISCUSS:
>
>
>
> "1. The assumption that the datacenter is a secure environment is not a
>
> reasonable one. As Kathleen and Adam both observer, datacenter
>
> breaches are common and that is why people are moving towards
>
> encryption inside the data center. I see that this draft has text
>
> claiming that this is only to be deployed in safe environments, but we
>
> know that technologies like this get deployed outside the locations
>
> for which we claim they are to be deployed, and there's nothing here
>
> to stop that. Moreover, the whole trend towards cloud computing pushes
>
> us away from designs in which you can safely talk about single secure
>
> zones."
>
>
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 6:51 AM, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Eric,
>
>
>
> Can you please clarify this point: =E2=80=9CRather it's about the level o=
f trust to
> be placed in the networking path through which that data flows.=E2=80=9D?
>
>
>
> Sorry if you have already explained it to the editors, but as a WG
> participant I don=E2=80=99t have access to a record of such discussion.
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Med
>
>
>
> De : Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
> Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 20 octobre 2017 15:45
> =C3=80 : Paul Quinn (paulq)
> Cc : Alia Atlas; BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Kathleen Moriarty; sfc@ietf.o=
rg
> Objet : Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 6:31 AM, Paul Quinn (paulq) <paulq@cisco.com> wro=
te:
>
> Hi Alia,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 19, 2017, at 2:49 PM, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Med,
>
>
>
> Since you directed this at me, there are efforts to have some discussions
> and understand better the particular threats.
>
> Currently, there is no transport with integrity protection that is even a
> SHOULD to implement, much less a MUST.  There
>
> is no control-plane defined (beyond the BGP work) that describes detectin=
g
> issues.  There is no OAM defined and adopted
>
> by the WG that detects or handles these types of attacks. I see the
> structure that you are presuming, but none of these are
>
> available as normative references to NSH today.
>
>
>
>
>
> OAM does not address the security concern around integrity and devices.  =
If
> you and the WG believe OAM is the next =E2=80=9Cto do=E2=80=9D for the WG=
, that=E2=80=99s fine, but
> it=E2=80=99s orthogonal to the security points raised.
>
>
>
>
>
> I had recommended having a focused interim meeting to make sure that
> everyone concerned understood the issues and
>
> worked through the threat analysis and possible solutions together.
>
>
>
> Let=E2=80=99s please not conflate the ongoing security discussion with OA=
M, or other
> topics.  The security reality, as you pointed out in your email to Eric, =
is
> that we, as a community and industry, accept a level of trust wrt network
> devices.
>
>
>
> I don't actually think that's the point of contention, at least from my
> perspective. Rather it's about the level of trust to be placed in the
> networking path through which that data flows.
>
>
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
>
>
>  The ongoing edits and dialogue with Kathleen and Eric are working throug=
h
> their concerns.  An interim to talk about next SFC steps, post NSH, is a
> different matter.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At this point, clearly the most that could happen is a
>
> virtual interim.  There are some background discussions going on.
>
>
>
> I do not want to assume what mixture will be acceptable to handle the
> security concerns expressed by Kathleen and Eric
>
> and supported by a number of other ADs.
>
>
>
> I do greatly appreciate your attention and efforts to clarify and try to
> move this work forward. I have been expressing concerns
>
> about the security aspects of this work since RFC 7665 went through the
> publication process - and strongly encouraging serious
>
> WG focus to prevent precisely what has now happened.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Alia
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 4:49 AM, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Alia,
>
>
>
> Can you please share with us the current status of the document and the l=
ist
> of pending blocking points?
>
>
>
> I went through all public email exchanges, especially the ones related to
> security, but it is not that easy to understand what are the remaining
> issues that need fixes.
>
>
>
> In particular, is there a concern with assuming the current NSH threat
> model?
>
>
>
> 1.  NSH is secure against attacks induced by nodes that inject (spoofed) =
NSH
> before entering an SFC-enabled domain. Indeed, SFC ingress nodes MUST
> discard packets carrying NSH.
>
> 2.  NSH is secure against attacks from within the SFC-enabled domain to
> inject non-authorized context headers. From a service perspective, the gu=
ard
> is the CP which is responsible for instructing the SFC-aware nodes about =
the
> mandatory-to-process and optional-to-process context headers. Furthermore=
,
> whatever the origin of a supplied context header, the last SFF of a chain
> (and egress nodes) MUST remove the NSH before forwarding upstream.
>
> 3.  NSH is secure against leaking privacy information outside an SFC enab=
led
> domain. The last SFF of a chain (and egress nodes) MUST remove the NSH
> before forwarding upstream.
>
> 4.  NSH is secure against indefinite SF/SFF loops by means of SI and TTL
> fields.
>
> 5.  Control plane specific threats are out of scope, but the document cit=
es
> I-D.ietf-sfc-control-plane for the expected behavior when instructing SFC
> nodes. BTW, the secdir review of the CP requirements can be retrieved her=
e
> (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/review-ietf-sfc-control-plane-02-secdir=
-early-meadows-2015-12-10/).
>
> 6.  NSH does not share privacy data with non-authorized parties. Indeed,
> data carried in context headers are derived from the original packet (e.g=
.,
> source IP address) or are already known to the operator (e.g., subscriber
> identifier, policy identifier, service identifier). The context informati=
on
> is shared with nodes that are within the same administrative domain.
>
> 7.  Like other communication protocols, attacks from within the network a=
re
> possible, but those are soften by relying on the procedures put in place =
by
> operators for testing and validating nodes/features before actual
> activation. NSH does not provide a built-in feature to prevent misbehavin=
g
> nodes, but recommends to rely on the security features provided by the
> underlying transport encapsulation schemes.
>
>
>
> Let=E2=80=99s now focus on the typical =E2=80=9Cattacks=E2=80=9D that can=
 be issued from within the
> network:
>
> 1.  A misbehaving node redirect the traffic to non-authorized nodes outsi=
de
> a domain: This is not NSH-specific.
>
> 2.  A misbehaving SFC-unware node alters the content of a packet: This is
> not NSH-specific.
>
> 3.  A misbehaving SFC-aware node alters the content of NSH:
>
>             i.     It removes the NSH header from all packets it sees: Th=
is
> will imply that the packets, the misbehaving node intercepts, will be
> forwarded upstream without invoking the required SFs (which may be seen a=
s a
> feature, not a bug if one dislikes =E2=80=9Cmiddleboxes=E2=80=9D :)). Mor=
e seriously, the
> OAM NSH feature will allow an operator to detect whether NSH packets are
> travelling in accordance with SFC instructions of that domain. Running th=
at
> feature will help detecting the misbehaving node.
>
>           ii.     It modifies the content of SPI: This will imply that th=
ese
> packets will be forwarded over a wrong path. Again, running OAM NSH will
> allow the operator to detect whether a packet is travelling in accordance
> with SFC instructions. Running that feature regularly will help identifyi=
ng
> the misbehaving node and whether the SFC configuration of a domain is
> aligned with the expected behavior.
>
>         iii.     It modifies the content of SI/TTL: This will increase th=
e
> authorized maximum SFF/SF hops. Not sure if there is a security problem o=
ut
> there.
>
>           iv.     The misbehaving node is a classifier: The implications
> will be severe from a service standpoint. NSH relies on OAM and
> control-plane to detect such case.
>
>             v.     The misbehaving node is an SFF: Examples of misbehavio=
rs
> are: strip NSH, forward to a non-authorized SF, redirect the traffic to a
> non-authorized nodes, etc. Like for the classifier case, NSH relies on OA=
M
> and control-plane to detect such case.
>
>
>
> Are there specific attacks that are not listed above and that need more
> attention from the WG?
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Med
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sfc mailing list
> sfc@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen


From nobody Fri Oct 20 12:49:28 2017
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Subject: [sfc] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-27.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Service Function Chaining WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Network Service Header (NSH)
        Authors         : Paul Quinn
                          Uri Elzur
                          Carlos Pignataro
	Filename        : draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-27.txt
	Pages           : 39
	Date            : 2017-10-20

Abstract:
   This document describes a Network Service Header (NSH) imposed on
   packets or frames to realize service function paths.  The NSH also
   provides a mechanism for metadata exchange along the instantiated
   service paths.  The NSH is the SFC encapsulation required to support
   the Service Function Chaining (SFC) architecture (defined in
   RFC7665).


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-27
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-27

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-27


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Fri Oct 20 13:04:43 2017
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From: Kathleen Moriarty <Kathleen.Moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
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Cc: draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, sfc-chairs@ietf.org, jmh@joelhalpern.com, sfc@ietf.org
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Subject: [sfc] Kathleen Moriarty's Abstain on draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-27: (with COMMENT)
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Kathleen Moriarty has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-sfc-nsh-27: Abstain

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
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Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-nsh/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you very much for the new security considerations section.  The added
text to fully explain the current state as well as the pitfalls of the solution
is quite helpful.  The work put into understanding the issues (both from the
security side as well as from the architecture/solution limitations) and
documenting them was substantial and I hope it helps improve future work.  I do
understand that the WG has hurdles to provide integrity protection, but also
don't see immediate solutions.  I do appreciate the text that acknowledges this
problem and that offers some mitigating options.  While I appreciate the
changes, I'd like to see better options going forward in routing area protocols
and as such, I will abstain since the security property of integrity is not
addressed in this solution.



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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
CC: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" <paulq@cisco.com>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Med Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
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--_000_D16F0D1402ED465A93AAB258573A8AFCciscocom_--


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References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300A056E39@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <CAG4d1rc9R47rvLPUhLEQsfKNQHT=u2A0S2sKzao5uL3EdTzy1Q@mail.gmail.com> <BC3952F3-9544-4E03-B73C-78AFFD870446@cisco.com> <CABcZeBNptFJyrrbuHjUeaEk3Tz8aqTQYgb8jftF9UQ45U2kMCg@mail.gmail.com> <4A8DB6C5-28CC-41D6-9163-611A58BEC383@cisco.com> <CABcZeBPg_DDALYRFPv6hX2fmFfop0DOD0DJbkGHsJYre2QCKFA@mail.gmail.com> <C614C3FE-AFDC-417E-A8CE-5E47C016DA4D@cisco.com> <CABcZeBPOsV1KZT1c4RMgo=uMQpycYBudpHU5TuCr-9U0p4CJ9Q@mail.gmail.com> <B6F0BF70-2669-42DE-A193-3CAA38926DB6@cisco.com> <CABcZeBNj27zTpkBGMoRLGPwFX+JQ91xa7j1-A1PJtTr6e2G39w@mail.gmail.com> <D16F0D14-02ED-465A-93AA-B258573A8AFC@cisco.com>
From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 15:18:48 -0700
Message-ID: <CABcZeBOXC0PE0ELWShEH8YYdtHQQw=GH-bidvdqboBNe_7h2jA@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>, Catherine Groswird <cate@mozilla.com>
Cc: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" <paulq@cisco.com>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>,  Med Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>,  Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sfc/9yxGbRh9rBsPMPFigGMY_YRpbNU>
Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH DISCUSS Status
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--001a113e688ec163b4055c01ddac
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On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 3:12 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:

> Eric,
>
> I am just trying to understand=E2=80=A6
>
> On Oct 20, 2017, at 10:50 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>
> In any case, I don't think going back and forth in email is productive
> here. I'm happy to do this live in Singapore or on a phone call where the
> other people who filed DISCUSSes can also attend.
>
>
> Are you saying that will not respond anymore on this specific thread (lik=
e
> to an email response I sent earlier addressed to you), on forks of this
> thread, or on this topic at all?
>

I'm saying I'm not finding this productive and we should do it live. I've
CCed my EA, Cate, who can help us find a time next week.

-Ekr


> I am not sure why so abruptly you do not respond while holding a DISCUSS.
>
> For me, this back and forth in email (also referred to as =E2=80=9Ccommun=
ication=E2=80=9D
> and =E2=80=9Cdialogue=E2=80=9D), has been immensely productive. I thank y=
ou for it. I
> understand better your position now =E2=80=94 at least better than with t=
he silence
> (also known as absence of back-and-forth-in-email) of before.
>
> So, would it be possible for you to check the new text and see how it
> addresses your DISCUSS? I trust you will find areas in which it can be
> improved.
>
> Additionally, it would be super if you could further make time for a
> phone/video conversation this coming week! Thanks in advance for that
> suggestion!
>
> But really, if you could articulate in writing how the new section fits
> when you try it on for size, it would be of great help.
>
> Best,
>
> =E2=80=94
> Carlos Pignataro, carlos@cisco.com
>
> *=E2=80=9CSometimes I use big words that I do not fully understand, to ma=
ke myself
> sound more photosynthesis."*
>
>

--001a113e688ec163b4055c01ddac
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 3:12 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">cpigna=
ta@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
Eric,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am just trying to understand=E2=80=A6=C2=A0<br>
<div><span class=3D""><br>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Oct 20, 2017, at 10:50 AM, Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@=
rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"m_5794124451386160840Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:star=
t;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
In any case, I don&#39;t think going back and forth in email is productive =
here. I&#39;m happy to do this live in Singapore or on a phone call where t=
he other people who filed DISCUSSes can also attend.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div><br>
</div></span>
Are you saying that will not respond anymore on this specific thread (like =
to an email response I sent earlier addressed to you), on forks of this thr=
ead, or on this topic at all?</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>I&#39;m saying I&#39;m not finding this productive and we should do it=
 live. I&#39;ve CCed my EA, Cate, who can help us find a time next week.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div>
</div>
<div>I am not sure why so abruptly you do not respond while holding a DISCU=
SS.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For me, this back and forth in email (also referred to as =E2=80=9Ccom=
munication=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cdialogue=E2=80=9D), has been immensely pro=
ductive. I thank you for it. I understand better your position now =E2=80=
=94 at least better than with the silence (also known as absence
 of back-and-forth-in-email) of before.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So, would it be possible for you to check the new text and see how it =
addresses your DISCUSS? I trust you will find areas in which it can be impr=
oved.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Additionally, it would be super if you could further make time for a p=
hone/video conversation this coming week! Thanks in advance for that sugges=
tion!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But really, if you could articulate in writing how the new section fit=
s when you try it on for size, it would be of great help.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
=E2=80=94<br>
Carlos Pignataro,=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:carlos@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank=
">carlos@cisco.com</a><br>
<br>
<i>=E2=80=9CSometimes I use big words that I do not fully understand, to ma=
ke myself sound more photosynthesis.&quot;</i></div>
<div><i><br>
</i></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a113e688ec163b4055c01ddac--


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Dear Jim Guichard,

The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled.
Below is the scheduled session information followed by
the original request. 

sfc Session 1 (2:00:00)
    Tuesday, Morning Session I 0930-1200
    Room Name: Padang size: 300
    ---------------------------------------------
    


Request Information:


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Service Function Chaining
Area Name: Routing Area
Session Requester: Jim Guichard

Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):  2 Hours
Number of Attendees: 150
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 First Priority: bess idr i2nsf ippm mpls nvo3 rtgwg spring




People who must be present:
  Joel M. Halpern
  Jim Guichard
  Alia Atlas

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  
---------------------------------------------------------


From nobody Fri Oct 27 10:38:52 2017
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Reply-To: <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <sfc@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 18:38:38 +0100
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Subject: [sfc] New version of draft-farrel-sfc-convent-03.txt
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Hi WG,

You may recall this draft: it introduces the "None" value for the NSH "Next
Protocol" field.

With this revision we have cleaned up the text a little and reduced section 4
("Backward Compatibility") to remove the text/discussion that was moved into
draft-ietf-sfc-nsh.

At this point we need to ask: does the WG think that the idea of "Next Protocol"
= "None" is something we should pursue?

If there is general support for the idea, is this document the right way to go?

And if yes to both questions: would the chairs like to consider adopting this as
a WG draft so we can move it forward with consensus?

We're not asking to present this work in Singapore (although we would be happy
to do so if asked). The draft is very simple and doesn't need a marketing pitch.

Cheers,
Adrian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: 27 October 2017 18:23
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Subject: I-D Action: draft-farrel-sfc-convent-03.txt
> 
> 
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.
> 
> 
>         Title           : Operating the Network Service Header (NSH) with Next
Protocol
> "None"
>         Authors         : Adrian Farrel
>                           John Drake
> 	Filename        : draft-farrel-sfc-convent-03.txt
> 	Pages           : 10
> 	Date            : 2017-10-27
> 
> Abstract:
>    This document describes the use of the Network Service Header (NSH)
>    in a Service Function Chaining (SFC) enabled network with no payload
>    data and carrying only metadata.  This is achieved by defining a new
>    NSH "Next Protocol" type value of "None".
> 
>    This document illustrates some of the functions that may be achieved
>    or enhanced by this mechanism, but it does not provide an exhaustive
>    list of use cases, nor is it intended to be definitive about the
>    functions it describes.  It is expected that other documents will
>    describe specific use cases in more detail and will define the
>    protocol mechanics for each use case.
> 
> 
> 
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-farrel-sfc-convent/
> 
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-farrel-sfc-convent-03
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-farrel-sfc-convent-03
> 
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-farrel-sfc-convent-03
> 
> 
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt


From nobody Mon Oct 30 06:04:48 2017
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Subject: [sfc] New revision draft-farrel-mpls-sfc
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Hi,

We have a new revision of "An MPLS-Based Forwarding Plane for Service Function
Chaining" https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-farrel-mpls-sfc/

We know that there is a range of opinions about this work, so we would be happy
to talk about it in Singapore if there is space on the agenda.

Thanks,
Adrian


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From: Sumandra Majee <S.Majee@F5.com>
To: "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
CC: Med Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, "Paul Quinn (paulq)" <paulq@cisco.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
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References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300A056E39@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <CAG4d1rc9R47rvLPUhLEQsfKNQHT=u2A0S2sKzao5uL3EdTzy1Q@mail.gmail.com> <BC3952F3-9544-4E03-B73C-78AFFD870446@cisco.com> <CABcZeBNptFJyrrbuHjUeaEk3Tz8aqTQYgb8jftF9UQ45U2kMCg@mail.gmail.com> <4A8DB6C5-28CC-41D6-9163-611A58BEC383@cisco.com> <CABcZeBPg_DDALYRFPv6hX2fmFfop0DOD0DJbkGHsJYre2QCKFA@mail.gmail.com> <C614C3FE-AFDC-417E-A8CE-5E47C016DA4D@cisco.com> <CABcZeBPOsV1KZT1c4RMgo=uMQpycYBudpHU5TuCr-9U0p4CJ9Q@mail.gmail.com> <B6F0BF70-2669-42DE-A193-3CAA38926DB6@cisco.com> <CABcZeBNj27zTpkBGMoRLGPwFX+JQ91xa7j1-A1PJtTr6e2G39w@mail.gmail.com> <D16F0D14-02ED-465A-93AA-B258573A8AFC@cisco.com> <CABcZeBOXC0PE0ELWShEH8YYdtHQQw=GH-bidvdqboBNe_7h2jA@mail.gmail.com>
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