From miguel.a.garcia@ericsson.com Thu Mar 1 13:56:02 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E466621E808A for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 13:56:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.348 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.348 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.251, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vOJ8rZQASQnD for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 13:56:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (mailgw9.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.57]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CE0D21E806A for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 13:56:01 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb39-b7bf2ae0000069a1-ee-4f4ff0704fd2 Received: from esessmw0197.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 9E.B1.27041.070FF4F4; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 22:56:00 +0100 (CET) Received: from [159.107.105.123] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0197.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.88) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.213.0; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 22:56:00 +0100 Message-ID: <4F4FF06F.6040906@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 22:55:59 +0100 From: "Miguel A. Garcia" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Simple WG , Geir Arne Sandbakken Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Subject: [Simple] SIMPLE chat: Internationalization and normalization of nicknames X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 21:56:03 -0000 Dear all: I am trying to address the last known issue of the SIMPLE chat draft. This came through Enrico Marocco's Appsdir review, and the comment was: The document doesn't describe allowed characters in Nicks and any normalization that needs to be applied. So, I got advice from Alexy Melnikov, indicating that we should take a look at the ResourcePrep in: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-xmpp-6122bis/ The idea is to inspire on the ResourcePrep and adapted to Nicknames in SIMPLE chat. However, there is a dependency on the completion of the Precis Framework: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-precis-framework/ This means that SIMPLE chat will need to add a normative dependency to the Precis Framework, and if SIMPLE chat is approved and arrives to the RFC Editor before the Precis Framework, it will stay there until the framework reaches the RFC editor. I guess this is what we should do, but if someone has any other opinion, please let me know it. The internationalization and normalization of nicknames will probably take a bit of my time until we do it. So, I propose to submit my current working copy, that contains all comments from Cullen, Christer, Saul, Suresh, etc. This will be version -14. Comments, please? /Miguel -- Miguel A. Garcia +34-91-339-3608 Ericsson Spain From stpeter@stpeter.im Thu Mar 1 14:00:31 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B0E121E82BA for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:00:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.778 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.778 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.179, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lg44x0s46bez for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:00:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1C6721E8119 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:00:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from squire.local (unknown [64.101.72.114]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4A0604005A; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 15:12:11 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4F4FF178.8030404@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 15:00:24 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Miguel A. Garcia" References: <4F4FF06F.6040906@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <4F4FF06F.6040906@ericsson.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.5 OpenPGP: url=https://stpeter.im/stpeter.asc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Simple WG Subject: Re: [Simple] SIMPLE chat: Internationalization and normalization of nicknames X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 22:00:31 -0000 On 3/1/12 2:55 PM, Miguel A. Garcia wrote: > Comments, please? Hi Miguel, As an author of 6122bis and the PRECIS framework, I stand ready to help on this list if you guys have questions. To be clear, I think you guys don't want to use 6122bis, but you probably do want to define a separate profile of the PRECIS framework. Your other options are to define a stringprep profile (which I do not recommend for various reasons) or to "roll your own" (which has its own hazards). Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ From ben@nostrum.com Thu Mar 1 14:12:27 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A66C21E835D for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:12:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.532 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.532 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.068, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5Fb7KxXkPnm3 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:12:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (nostrum-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:267::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5132021E8352 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:12:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (cpe-76-187-92-156.tx.res.rr.com [76.187.92.156]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q21MCM7w044677 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 1 Mar 2012 16:12:23 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ben Campbell In-Reply-To: <4F4FF06F.6040906@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 16:12:27 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <79EDE431-3574-4BDF-82E0-4C803511A183@nostrum.com> References: <4F4FF06F.6040906@ericsson.com> To: "Miguel A. Garcia" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 76.187.92.156 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) Cc: Simple WG Subject: Re: [Simple] SIMPLE chat: Internationalization and normalization of nicknames X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 22:12:27 -0000 On Mar 1, 2012, at 3:55 PM, Miguel A. Garcia wrote: > Dear all: >=20 > I am trying to address the last known issue of the SIMPLE chat draft. = This came through Enrico Marocco's Appsdir review, and the comment was: >=20 > The document doesn't describe allowed characters in Nicks and any > normalization that needs to be applied. >=20 > So, I got advice from Alexy Melnikov, indicating that we should take a = look at the ResourcePrep in: > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-xmpp-6122bis/ >=20 > The idea is to inspire on the ResourcePrep and adapted to Nicknames in = SIMPLE chat. However, there is a dependency on the completion of the = Precis Framework: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-precis-framework/ >=20 > This means that SIMPLE chat will need to add a normative dependency to = the Precis Framework, and if SIMPLE chat is approved and arrives to the = RFC Editor before the Precis Framework, it will stay there until the = framework reaches the RFC editor. (as individual) I concur with this approach in general, although I think we will find = some differences between the Resource parts in 6122/6122bis and the use = of nicknames in simple-chat. In particular: 1) A resource part identifies something. That makes uniqueness and = comparisons fairly important. OTOH, a nickname is really for human = display purposes. We still need to be able to compare them for = reservations to work. And the human readability part means we should at = least mention character confusion issues. 2) The 6122bis resource parts live inside URIs, while simple-chat = nicknames are just strings. I'm not sure that these differences really change the outcome = much--they're just things to think about. >=20 > I guess this is what we should do, but if someone has any other = opinion, please let me know it. >=20 > The internationalization and normalization of nicknames will probably = take a bit of my time until we do it. So, I propose to submit my current = working copy, that contains all comments from Cullen, Christer, Saul, = Suresh, etc. This will be version -14. (as draft shepherd)=20 Please do so. Hopefully we can get feedback as to whether they are okay = with the changes related to their comments in parallel to working out = the nickname issue. Thanks! Ben.= From miguel.a.garcia@ericsson.com Thu Mar 1 14:13:07 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5C6521E835C for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:13:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.353 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.353 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.246, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RqNFDSdyApWP for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:13:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (mailgw9.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.57]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A17F921E8352 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:13:06 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb39-b7bf2ae0000069a1-e1-4f4ff471cdfa Received: from esessmw0197.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 1F.23.27041.174FF4F4; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 23:13:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from [159.107.105.123] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0197.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.88) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.213.0; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 23:13:05 +0100 Message-ID: <4F4FF470.9040904@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 23:13:04 +0100 From: "Miguel A. Garcia" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Saint-Andre References: <4F4FF06F.6040906@ericsson.com> <4F4FF178.8030404@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <4F4FF178.8030404@stpeter.im> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Cc: Simple WG Subject: Re: [Simple] SIMPLE chat: Internationalization and normalization of nicknames X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 22:13:08 -0000 Thank you Peter, I am also leaning towards defining a profile of the PRECIS framework. I need to study it in detail, and I am sure questions will come, so I will get back to you. Thanks, Miguel On 01/03/2012 23:00, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 3/1/12 2:55 PM, Miguel A. Garcia wrote: > >> Comments, please? > > Hi Miguel, > > As an author of 6122bis and the PRECIS framework, I stand ready to help > on this list if you guys have questions. > > To be clear, I think you guys don't want to use 6122bis, but you > probably do want to define a separate profile of the PRECIS framework. > Your other options are to define a stringprep profile (which I do not > recommend for various reasons) or to "roll your own" (which has its own > hazards). > > Peter > -- Miguel A. Garcia +34-91-339-3608 Ericsson Spain From stpeter@stpeter.im Thu Mar 1 14:19:55 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA4BE21E8371 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:19:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.776 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.776 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.177, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A-1mZHu7SDgK for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:19:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AE8B21F89C3 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:19:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from squire.local (unknown [64.101.72.114]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3F37E4005A; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 15:31:33 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4F4FF606.1080103@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 15:19:50 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Miguel A. Garcia" References: <4F4FF06F.6040906@ericsson.com> <4F4FF178.8030404@stpeter.im> <4F4FF470.9040904@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <4F4FF470.9040904@ericsson.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.5 OpenPGP: url=https://stpeter.im/stpeter.asc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Simple WG Subject: Re: [Simple] SIMPLE chat: Internationalization and normalization of nicknames X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 22:19:56 -0000 On 3/1/12 3:13 PM, Miguel A. Garcia wrote: > Thank you Peter, > > I am also leaning towards defining a profile of the PRECIS framework. I > need to study it in detail, and I am sure questions will come, so I will > get back to you. OK, good. I'd like to make it clear that in XMPP, we would probably define a more strict subset for nicknames than for resourceparts in general. As a reminder, in XMPP your nickname is the last part of the JabberID, which we call a resourcepart: someroom@service/nick Some XMPP implementations try to avoid confusion in chatrooms by prohibiting case variations such as stpeter vs. StPeter (etc.). However, confusion is nearly impossible to prevent, as we discuss in the precis-framework document. Internationalization is inherently difficult, so you'll want to really talk about this in the WG so your assumptions and goals are clear. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ From stpeter@stpeter.im Thu Mar 1 14:26:03 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8646B21E838D for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:26:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.774 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.774 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.175, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TJChSKtHBfLi for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:26:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C5F921E836D for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:26:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from squire.local (unknown [64.101.72.114]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BDB844005A; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 15:37:42 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4F4FF778.8000402@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 15:26:00 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ben Campbell References: <4F4FF06F.6040906@ericsson.com> <79EDE431-3574-4BDF-82E0-4C803511A183@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <79EDE431-3574-4BDF-82E0-4C803511A183@nostrum.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.5 OpenPGP: url=https://stpeter.im/stpeter.asc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Simple WG Subject: Re: [Simple] SIMPLE chat: Internationalization and normalization of nicknames X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 22:26:03 -0000 On 3/1/12 3:12 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: > > On Mar 1, 2012, at 3:55 PM, Miguel A. Garcia wrote: > >> Dear all: >> >> I am trying to address the last known issue of the SIMPLE chat >> draft. This came through Enrico Marocco's Appsdir review, and the >> comment was: >> >> The document doesn't describe allowed characters in Nicks and any >> normalization that needs to be applied. >> >> So, I got advice from Alexy Melnikov, indicating that we should >> take a look at the ResourcePrep in: >> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-xmpp-6122bis/ >> >> The idea is to inspire on the ResourcePrep and adapted to Nicknames >> in SIMPLE chat. However, there is a dependency on the completion of >> the Precis Framework: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-precis-framework/ >> >> This means that SIMPLE chat will need to add a normative dependency >> to the Precis Framework, and if SIMPLE chat is approved and arrives >> to the RFC Editor before the Precis Framework, it will stay there >> until the framework reaches the RFC editor. > > (as individual) > > I concur with this approach in general, although I think we will find > some differences between the Resource parts in 6122/6122bis and the > use of nicknames in simple-chat. In particular: > > 1) A resource part identifies something. That makes uniqueness and > comparisons fairly important. OTOH, a nickname is really for human > display purposes. We still need to be able to compare them for > reservations to work. And the human readability part means we should > at least mention character confusion issues. In the chatroom context, XMPP resourceparts are mostly used for display purposes but also for some authorization decisions (e.g., we can kick people based on their nickname). As far as I understand it, the uses are really quite similar in XMPP chatrooms and SIMPLE chatrooms. > 2) The 6122bis resource parts live inside URIs, while simple-chat > nicknames are just strings. Well, we don't really use URIs in XMPP. Probably you mean JIDs (JabberIDs). In that case, yes, they are used sometimes for addressing in XMPP chatrooms (e.g., to send a private message to another occupant). > I'm not sure that these differences really change the outcome > much--they're just things to think about. Although I think that XMPP resourceparts *as they are used in chatrooms* are quite similar to SIMPLE nicknames, resourceparts are used in other contexts (e.g., as device/connection identifiers) so the resourceprep replacement that's developed in the XMPP WG won't be quite what you need anyway. However, there probably is value in thinking about nicks in general, because it's possible that we could define the same PRECIS profile for use in both XMPP chatrooms (XEP-0045) and SIMPLE chatrooms. A common approach might be good. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ From ben@nostrum.com Thu Mar 1 14:45:34 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B55E021E8357 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:45:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.537 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.537 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.063, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id akJk8amiv6Df for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:45:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (nostrum-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:267::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D840621E80AF for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:45:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (cpe-76-187-92-156.tx.res.rr.com [76.187.92.156]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q21MjUsi049896 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 1 Mar 2012 16:45:31 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ben Campbell In-Reply-To: <4F4FF778.8000402@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 16:45:35 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <03F68416-1641-4465-9913-9B2740ADBD53@nostrum.com> References: <4F4FF06F.6040906@ericsson.com> <79EDE431-3574-4BDF-82E0-4C803511A183@nostrum.com> <4F4FF778.8000402@stpeter.im> To: Peter Saint-Andre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 76.187.92.156 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) Cc: Simple WG Subject: Re: [Simple] SIMPLE chat: Internationalization and normalization of nicknames X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 22:45:34 -0000 On Mar 1, 2012, at 4:26 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 3/1/12 3:12 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >>=20 >>=20 [...] >> (as individual) >>=20 >> I concur with this approach in general, although I think we will find >> some differences between the Resource parts in 6122/6122bis and the >> use of nicknames in simple-chat. In particular: >>=20 >> 1) A resource part identifies something. That makes uniqueness and >> comparisons fairly important. OTOH, a nickname is really for human >> display purposes. We still need to be able to compare them for >> reservations to work. And the human readability part means we should >> at least mention character confusion issues. >=20 > In the chatroom context, XMPP resourceparts are mostly used for = display > purposes but also for some authorization decisions (e.g., we can kick > people based on their nickname). As far as I understand it, the uses = are > really quite similar in XMPP chatrooms and SIMPLE chatrooms. >=20 My understanding of simple-chat is that the participant that you make = policy decisions about would be identified by a bona-fide URI. For = example, if we kick someone, we would supply the URI. The nickname is a = data attribute associated with the URI, and really is a display name for = most practical purposes. Of course, you might select the nickname in a = GUI in order to get you client to do the right thing. >> 2) The 6122bis resource parts live inside URIs, while simple-chat >> nicknames are just strings. >=20 > Well, we don't really use URIs in XMPP. Probably you mean JIDs > (JabberIDs). In that case, yes, they are used sometimes for addressing > in XMPP chatrooms (e.g., to send a private message to another = occupant). You are right of course :-) I mean JIDs. >=20 >> I'm not sure that these differences really change the outcome >> much--they're just things to think about. >=20 > Although I think that XMPP resourceparts *as they are used in = chatrooms* > are quite similar to SIMPLE nicknames, resourceparts are used in other > contexts (e.g., as device/connection identifiers) so the resourceprep > replacement that's developed in the XMPP WG won't be quite what you = need > anyway. However, there probably is value in thinking about nicks in > general, because it's possible that we could define the same PRECIS > profile for use in both XMPP chatrooms (XEP-0045) and SIMPLE = chatrooms. > A common approach might be good. Agreed. Also, since simple-chat uses the nickname from the XCON common = data model, other clients of that data model may have similar issues. >=20 > Peter >=20 > --=20 > Peter Saint-Andre > https://stpeter.im/ >=20 >=20 From stpeter@stpeter.im Thu Mar 1 14:48:58 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4094221E83CC for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:48:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.769 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.769 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.170, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dj+gApsRZGeU for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:48:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A8CC21E83CB for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:48:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from squire.local (unknown [64.101.72.114]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3E8704009B; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 16:00:38 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4F4FFCD7.1060700@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 15:48:55 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ben Campbell References: <4F4FF06F.6040906@ericsson.com> <79EDE431-3574-4BDF-82E0-4C803511A183@nostrum.com> <4F4FF778.8000402@stpeter.im> <03F68416-1641-4465-9913-9B2740ADBD53@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <03F68416-1641-4465-9913-9B2740ADBD53@nostrum.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.5 OpenPGP: url=https://stpeter.im/stpeter.asc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Simple WG Subject: Re: [Simple] SIMPLE chat: Internationalization and normalization of nicknames X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 22:48:58 -0000 On 3/1/12 3:45 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: > > On Mar 1, 2012, at 4:26 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > >> On 3/1/12 3:12 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >>> >>> > > [...] > >>> (as individual) >>> >>> I concur with this approach in general, although I think we will >>> find some differences between the Resource parts in 6122/6122bis >>> and the use of nicknames in simple-chat. In particular: >>> >>> 1) A resource part identifies something. That makes uniqueness >>> and comparisons fairly important. OTOH, a nickname is really for >>> human display purposes. We still need to be able to compare them >>> for reservations to work. And the human readability part means we >>> should at least mention character confusion issues. >> >> In the chatroom context, XMPP resourceparts are mostly used for >> display purposes but also for some authorization decisions (e.g., >> we can kick people based on their nickname). As far as I understand >> it, the uses are really quite similar in XMPP chatrooms and SIMPLE >> chatrooms. >> > > My understanding of simple-chat is that the participant that you make > policy decisions about would be identified by a bona-fide URI. For > example, if we kick someone, we would supply the URI. The nickname > is a data attribute associated with the URI, and really is a display > name for most practical purposes. Of course, you might select the > nickname in a GUI in order to get you client to do the right thing. OK. It seems that you might also be making some authorization decisions based on the nickname, e.g., if you've reserved a nickname then I can't get that nickname (can I join the chatroom but just not with that nickname?). Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ From saul@ag-projects.com Thu Mar 1 14:54:54 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E232221E802D for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:54:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.621 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.621 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.067, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MM1kWIN3ndV2 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:54:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sipthor.net (node06.dns-hosting.info [85.17.186.6]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72D2921F8422 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:54:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.sipthor.net (Postfix, from userid 5001) id 17F5AB01B1; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 23:54:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from imac.saghul.lan (ip3e830637.speed.planet.nl [62.131.6.55]) by mail.sipthor.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6A133B019C; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 23:54:22 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sa=FAl_Ibarra_Corretg=E9?= In-Reply-To: <4F4FF778.8000402@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 23:54:22 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4F4FF06F.6040906@ericsson.com> <79EDE431-3574-4BDF-82E0-4C803511A183@nostrum.com> <4F4FF778.8000402@stpeter.im> To: Peter Saint-Andre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Cc: Simple WG Subject: Re: [Simple] SIMPLE chat: Internationalization and normalization of nicknames X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 22:54:55 -0000 Hi, >>=20 >> 1) A resource part identifies something. That makes uniqueness and >> comparisons fairly important. OTOH, a nickname is really for human >> display purposes. We still need to be able to compare them for >> reservations to work. And the human readability part means we should >> at least mention character confusion issues. >=20 > In the chatroom context, XMPP resourceparts are mostly used for = display > purposes but also for some authorization decisions (e.g., we can kick > people based on their nickname). As far as I understand it, the uses = are > really quite similar in XMPP chatrooms and SIMPLE chatrooms. >=20 >> 2) The 6122bis resource parts live inside URIs, while simple-chat >> nicknames are just strings. >=20 > Well, we don't really use URIs in XMPP. Probably you mean JIDs > (JabberIDs). In that case, yes, they are used sometimes for addressing > in XMPP chatrooms (e.g., to send a private message to another = occupant). >=20 My understanding is that a full JID is comparable with a SIP GRUU, at = least from the routing perspective. I'm working on a SIP-XMPP gateway at = the moment and this is the translation I'm currently applying :-) Regards, -- Sa=FAl Ibarra Corretg=E9 AG Projects From ben@nostrum.com Thu Mar 1 14:54:55 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61CD821E802D for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:54:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.542 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.542 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.058, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ODZJhrAeP9ie for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:54:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (nostrum-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:267::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F7FC21F89AF for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:54:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (cpe-76-187-92-156.tx.res.rr.com [76.187.92.156]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q21MsYfS051096 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 1 Mar 2012 16:54:35 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ben Campbell In-Reply-To: <4F4FFCD7.1060700@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 16:54:39 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5D79B0DC-24F4-44A2-92F5-F3CB6D1BACC1@nostrum.com> References: <4F4FF06F.6040906@ericsson.com> <79EDE431-3574-4BDF-82E0-4C803511A183@nostrum.com> <4F4FF778.8000402@stpeter.im> <03F68416-1641-4465-9913-9B2740ADBD53@nostrum.com> <4F4FFCD7.1060700@stpeter.im> To: Peter Saint-Andre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 76.187.92.156 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) Cc: Simple WG Subject: Re: [Simple] SIMPLE chat: Internationalization and normalization of nicknames X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 22:54:55 -0000 On Mar 1, 2012, at 4:48 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 3/1/12 3:45 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >>=20 >> On Mar 1, 2012, at 4:26 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>=20 >>> On 3/1/12 3:12 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>=20 >> [...] >>=20 >>>> (as individual) >>>>=20 >>>> I concur with this approach in general, although I think we will >>>> find some differences between the Resource parts in 6122/6122bis >>>> and the use of nicknames in simple-chat. In particular: >>>>=20 >>>> 1) A resource part identifies something. That makes uniqueness >>>> and comparisons fairly important. OTOH, a nickname is really for >>>> human display purposes. We still need to be able to compare them >>>> for reservations to work. And the human readability part means we >>>> should at least mention character confusion issues. >>>=20 >>> In the chatroom context, XMPP resourceparts are mostly used for >>> display purposes but also for some authorization decisions (e.g., >>> we can kick people based on their nickname). As far as I understand >>> it, the uses are really quite similar in XMPP chatrooms and SIMPLE >>> chatrooms. >>>=20 >>=20 >> My understanding of simple-chat is that the participant that you make >> policy decisions about would be identified by a bona-fide URI. For >> example, if we kick someone, we would supply the URI. The nickname >> is a data attribute associated with the URI, and really is a display >> name for most practical purposes. Of course, you might select the >> nickname in a GUI in order to get you client to do the right thing. >=20 > OK. It seems that you might also be making some authorization = decisions > based on the nickname, e.g., if you've reserved a nickname then I = can't > get that nickname (can I join the chatroom but just not with that > nickname?). >=20 Yes, that is true. We do need an equality operator in some sense. (And = yes, assuming no other policy issue was blocking you, you could still = use a different nickname)= From stpeter@stpeter.im Thu Mar 1 14:58:00 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8BA721E81D4 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:58:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.767 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.767 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.168, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mgcNnNKnF14R for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:58:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1A7521E819C for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 14:57:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from squire.local (unknown [64.101.72.114]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 58C044005A; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 16:09:40 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4F4FFEF5.9050602@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 15:57:57 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ben Campbell References: <4F4FF06F.6040906@ericsson.com> <79EDE431-3574-4BDF-82E0-4C803511A183@nostrum.com> <4F4FF778.8000402@stpeter.im> <03F68416-1641-4465-9913-9B2740ADBD53@nostrum.com> <4F4FFCD7.1060700@stpeter.im> <5D79B0DC-24F4-44A2-92F5-F3CB6D1BACC1@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <5D79B0DC-24F4-44A2-92F5-F3CB6D1BACC1@nostrum.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.5 OpenPGP: url=https://stpeter.im/stpeter.asc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Simple WG Subject: Re: [Simple] SIMPLE chat: Internationalization and normalization of nicknames X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 22:58:00 -0000 On 3/1/12 3:54 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: > > On Mar 1, 2012, at 4:48 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > >> On 3/1/12 3:45 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >>> >>> On Mar 1, 2012, at 4:26 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>> >>>> On 3/1/12 3:12 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> [...] >>> >>>>> (as individual) >>>>> >>>>> I concur with this approach in general, although I think we will >>>>> find some differences between the Resource parts in 6122/6122bis >>>>> and the use of nicknames in simple-chat. In particular: >>>>> >>>>> 1) A resource part identifies something. That makes uniqueness >>>>> and comparisons fairly important. OTOH, a nickname is really for >>>>> human display purposes. We still need to be able to compare them >>>>> for reservations to work. And the human readability part means we >>>>> should at least mention character confusion issues. >>>> >>>> In the chatroom context, XMPP resourceparts are mostly used for >>>> display purposes but also for some authorization decisions (e.g., >>>> we can kick people based on their nickname). As far as I understand >>>> it, the uses are really quite similar in XMPP chatrooms and SIMPLE >>>> chatrooms. >>>> >>> >>> My understanding of simple-chat is that the participant that you make >>> policy decisions about would be identified by a bona-fide URI. For >>> example, if we kick someone, we would supply the URI. The nickname >>> is a data attribute associated with the URI, and really is a display >>> name for most practical purposes. Of course, you might select the >>> nickname in a GUI in order to get you client to do the right thing. >> >> OK. It seems that you might also be making some authorization decisions >> based on the nickname, e.g., if you've reserved a nickname then I can't >> get that nickname (can I join the chatroom but just not with that >> nickname?). >> > > Yes, that is true. We do need an equality operator in some sense. (And yes, assuming no other policy issue was blocking you, you could still use a different nickname) If it were just a pretty display thing, life would be easier. So we'll need to get into issues of comparison and equality. This could be fun. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ From internet-drafts@ietf.org Thu Mar 1 23:39:58 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25DDB21F8AB1; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 23:39:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7euiBWopY0ye; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 23:39:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0912221F89F2; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 23:39:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 4.00 Message-ID: <20120302073950.10645.39037.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 23:39:50 -0800 Cc: simple@ietf.org Subject: [Simple] I-D Action: draft-ietf-simple-chat-14.txt X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 07:39:58 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the SIP for Instant Messaging and Presenc= e Leveraging Extensions Working Group of the IETF. Title : Multi-party Chat Using the Message Session Relay Protoco= l (MSRP) Author(s) : Aki Niemi Miguel A. Garcia-Martin Geir A. Sandbakken Filename : draft-ietf-simple-chat-14.txt Pages : 37 Date : 2012-03-01 The Message Session Relay Protocol (MSRP) defines a mechanism for sending instant messages within a peer-to-peer session, negotiated using the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) and the Session Description Protocol (SDP). This document defines the necessary tools for establishing multi-party chat sessions, or chat rooms, using MSRP. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-simple-chat-14.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-simple-chat-14.txt From miguel.a.garcia@ericsson.com Thu Mar 1 23:50:46 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD8B621F87AA for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 23:50:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.362 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.362 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.237, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KqLL47CtNobU for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 23:50:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (mailgw9.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.57]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06C7A21F87A5 for ; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 23:50:45 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb39-b7bf2ae0000069a1-82-4f507bd43503 Received: from esessmw0247.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id F3.6B.27041.4DB705F4; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 08:50:45 +0100 (CET) Received: from [159.107.105.123] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0247.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.94) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.213.0; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 08:50:44 +0100 Message-ID: <4F507BD3.50300@ericsson.com> Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 08:50:43 +0100 From: "Miguel A. Garcia" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "simple@ietf.org" References: <20120302073950.10645.39037.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20120302073950.10645.39037.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Cc: Suresh Krishnan , Cullen Jennings Subject: Re: [Simple] I-D Action: draft-ietf-simple-chat-14.txt X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 07:50:47 -0000 I have just submitted a new version of the SIMPLE chat room draft. This one does not yet consider the internationalization and normalization of nicknames, which is scheduled for version -15. This version -14 addresses comments by Cullen, Suresh, Christer, and Saul. Please guys, verify that your changes are implemented according to your needs, and if you are not totally satisfied, you can still complain and we will fix it in version -15. Diff with the previous version: http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-simple-chat-14 /Miguel On 02/03/2012 8:39, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : Multi-party Chat Using the Message Session Relay Protocol (MSRP) > Author(s) : Aki Niemi > Miguel A. Garcia-Martin > Geir A. Sandbakken > Filename : draft-ietf-simple-chat-14.txt > Pages : 37 > Date : 2012-03-01 > > The Message Session Relay Protocol (MSRP) defines a mechanism for > sending instant messages within a peer-to-peer session, negotiated > using the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) and the Session > Description Protocol (SDP). This document defines the necessary > tools for establishing multi-party chat sessions, or chat rooms, > using MSRP. > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-simple-chat-14.txt > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-simple-chat-14.txt > > _______________________________________________ > Simple mailing list > Simple@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple > -- Miguel A. Garcia +34-91-339-3608 Ericsson Spain From saul@ag-projects.com Fri Mar 2 00:21:56 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5149021F8956 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 00:21:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.628 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.628 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5Dx0u+GRjlbT for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 00:21:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sipthor.net (node06.dns-hosting.info [85.17.186.6]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C322121F8952 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 00:21:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.sipthor.net (Postfix, from userid 5001) id 5F975B004F; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 09:21:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from imac.saghul.lan (ip3e830637.speed.planet.nl [62.131.6.55]) by mail.sipthor.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B7AB9B004F; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 09:21:53 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sa=FAl_Ibarra_Corretg=E9?= In-Reply-To: <4F507BD3.50300@ericsson.com> Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 09:21:53 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20120302073950.10645.39037.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4F507BD3.50300@ericsson.com> To: "Miguel A. Garcia" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Cc: "simple@ietf.org" , Cullen Jennings , Suresh Krishnan Subject: Re: [Simple] I-D Action: draft-ietf-simple-chat-14.txt X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 08:21:56 -0000 Hi, Miguel, I just read it and what I mentioned has been addressed as discussed :-) A couple of minor things, though: In section 4: "All messages in the chat room use the 'Message/CPIM' = wrapper content type [RFC3862]..." and a bit later, in section 5: "The conference focus of a chat room MUST = include support for a=09 Message/CPIM [RFC3862] top-level wrapper for the MSRP messages by = Message/CPIM [RFC3862]" I see that support for CPIM is a MUST for the Focus, but the behavior of = the Focus if an endpoint doesn't support it could be unclear. Should = CPIM be a MUST also for endpoints joining a chat room? IMHO it should. In section 7.1: "The user can select a different nickname and retry another NICKNAME request. nickname is not allocated to this user"." There seems to be an editing mistake after the dot. Regards, -- Sa=FAl Ibarra Corretg=E9 AG Projects From miguel.a.garcia@ericsson.com Fri Mar 2 01:13:14 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2102921F8A22 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 01:13:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.217 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.217 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.082, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F5b8sKGuW66C for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 01:13:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw10.se.ericsson.net (mailgw10.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8446221F8AB8 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 01:13:11 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3d-b7bb7ae0000007b2-6c-4f508f25d8f9 Received: from esessmw0237.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw10.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id E0.77.01970.52F805F4; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:13:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from [159.107.105.123] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0237.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.91) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.213.0; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:13:03 +0100 Message-ID: <4F508F1E.8020902@ericsson.com> Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:13:02 +0100 From: "Miguel A. Garcia" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sa=FAl_Ibarra_Corretg=E9?= References: <20120302073950.10645.39037.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4F507BD3.50300@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Cc: "simple@ietf.org" , Cullen Jennings , Suresh Krishnan Subject: Re: [Simple] I-D Action: draft-ietf-simple-chat-14.txt X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 09:13:14 -0000 Hi Saul, Thanks for your comments. Inline replies. On 02/03/2012 9:21, Saúl Ibarra Corretgé wrote: > Hi, Miguel, > > I just read it and what I mentioned has been addressed as discussed :-) > > A couple of minor things, though: > > In section 4: "All messages in the chat room use the 'Message/CPIM' wrapper content > type [RFC3862]..." > > and a bit later, in section 5: "The conference focus of a chat room MUST include support for a > Message/CPIM [RFC3862] top-level wrapper for the MSRP messages by Message/CPIM [RFC3862]" > > I see that support for CPIM is a MUST for the Focus, but the behavior of the Focus if an endpoint doesn't support it could be unclear. Should CPIM be a MUST also for endpoints joining a chat room? IMHO it should. The spirit of the draft is to support "conference-aware" and "conference-unaware" participants. The latter include: those not understanding the SIP "isfocus" extension, and those not supporting this draft. Conference-unaware participants can join the chat room and send and receive regular messages, but will not be able to send private messages, use anonymous URIs, or use nicknames. These conference-unaware participants will not read this draft, so we cannot put procedures to this type of user agents. We could say something about how the focus and MSRP switch treats conference-unaware participants, but I believe it is "business as usual", e.g., applying the conference framework. So, the draft focuses on User Agents that implement this draft, and as such, mandates the usage of Message/CPIM. See third paragraph in Section 6.1: The SEND request MUST contain a top-level wrapper of type 'Message/ CPIM' according to RFC 3862 [RFC3862]. The actual instant message payload MUST be included as payload of the 'Message/CPIM' wrapper and MAY be of any type negotiated in the SDP 'accept-types' attribute according to the MSRP rules. and later in 6.2: When a chat room participant wishes to send a private instant message to a participant in the chat room, it follows the same procedures for creating a SEND request as for regular messages (Section 6.1). The only difference is that the MSRP endpoint MUST populate a single To header of the Message/CPIM wrapper with the identifier of the intended recipient. So, I believe there is a mandate for conference-aware participants to use Message/CPIM. > > In section 7.1: "The user can select a different nickname and retry > another NICKNAME request. nickname is not allocated to this user"." > > There seems to be an editing mistake after the dot. Oh, yes, thanks for the catch. It will be fixed in version -15. The text after the dot should not be present there. /Miguel > > > Regards, > > -- > Saúl Ibarra Corretgé > AG Projects > > > -- Miguel A. Garcia +34-91-339-3608 Ericsson Spain From saul@ag-projects.com Fri Mar 2 04:35:32 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 712ED21F8B81 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 04:35:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.633 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.633 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.055, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qzeHEGLeZ36j for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 04:35:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sipthor.net (node06.dns-hosting.info [85.17.186.6]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B62FD21F8B2E for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 04:35:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.sipthor.net (Postfix, from userid 5001) id E2019B01B1; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 13:35:30 +0100 (CET) Received: from imac.saghul.lan (ip3e830637.speed.planet.nl [62.131.6.55]) by mail.sipthor.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1467FB004F; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 13:35:30 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sa=FAl_Ibarra_Corretg=E9?= In-Reply-To: <4F508F1E.8020902@ericsson.com> Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 13:35:29 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5E43C431-9321-4D45-AC84-7712AFD449A3@ag-projects.com> References: <20120302073950.10645.39037.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4F507BD3.50300@ericsson.com> <4F508F1E.8020902@ericsson.com> To: "Miguel A. Garcia" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Cc: "simple@ietf.org" , Cullen Jennings , Suresh Krishnan Subject: Re: [Simple] I-D Action: draft-ietf-simple-chat-14.txt X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 12:35:32 -0000 Hi Miguel, >=20 > The spirit of the draft is to support "conference-aware" and = "conference-unaware" participants. The latter include: those not = understanding the SIP "isfocus" extension, and those not supporting this = draft. >=20 > Conference-unaware participants can join the chat room and send and = receive regular messages, but will not be able to send private messages, = use anonymous URIs, or use nicknames. These conference-unaware = participants will not read this draft, so we cannot put procedures to = this type of user agents. We could say something about how the focus and = MSRP switch treats conference-unaware participants, but I believe it is = "business as usual", e.g., applying the conference framework. >=20 Yes, that makes sense. > So, the draft focuses on User Agents that implement this draft, and as = such, mandates the usage of Message/CPIM. See third paragraph in Section = 6.1: >=20 > The SEND request MUST contain a top-level wrapper of type 'Message/ > CPIM' according to RFC 3862 [RFC3862]. The actual instant message > payload MUST be included as payload of the 'Message/CPIM' wrapper = and > MAY be of any type negotiated in the SDP 'accept-types' attribute > according to the MSRP rules. >=20 > and later in 6.2: >=20 > When a chat room participant wishes to send a private instant = message > to a participant in the chat room, it follows the same procedures = for > creating a SEND request as for regular messages (Section 6.1). The > only difference is that the MSRP endpoint MUST populate a single To > header of the Message/CPIM wrapper with the identifier of the > intended recipient. >=20 > So, I believe there is a mandate for conference-aware participants to = use Message/CPIM. >=20 Apologies, I somehow didn't notice those paragraphs on my quick read. = It's just fine as it is. Regards, -- Sa=FAl Ibarra Corretg=E9 AG Projects From pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu Fri Mar 2 08:39:25 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BF2221F8747 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 08:39:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QDDLWUfDH1iE for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 08:39:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta12.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta12.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.59.227]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A52E521F8749 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 08:39:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta02.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.19]) by qmta12.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id gger1i00C0QuhwU5CgfRo8; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 16:39:25 +0000 Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([24.62.229.5]) by omta02.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id ggfQ1i02l07duvL3NgfRPZ; Fri, 02 Mar 2012 16:39:25 +0000 Message-ID: <4F50F7BB.5030306@alum.mit.edu> Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 11:39:23 -0500 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: simple@ietf.org References: <4F4FF06F.6040906@ericsson.com> <79EDE431-3574-4BDF-82E0-4C803511A183@nostrum.com> <4F4FF778.8000402@stpeter.im> <03F68416-1641-4465-9913-9B2740ADBD53@nostrum.com> <4F4FFCD7.1060700@stpeter.im> <5D79B0DC-24F4-44A2-92F5-F3CB6D1BACC1@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <5D79B0DC-24F4-44A2-92F5-F3CB6D1BACC1@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Simple] SIMPLE chat: Internationalization and normalization of nicknames X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 16:39:25 -0000 On 3/1/12 5:54 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >> OK. It seems that you might also be making some authorization decisions >> based on the nickname, e.g., if you've reserved a nickname then I can't >> get that nickname (can I join the chatroom but just not with that >> nickname?). >> > > Yes, that is true. We do need an equality operator in some sense. (And yes, assuming no other policy issue was blocking you, you could still use a different nickname) And this presumably needs some notion of canonicalization, so that you can't get two nicknames that compare as different but *look* the same. Thanks, Paul From ben@nostrum.com Fri Mar 2 11:08:21 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAE6121E8034 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 11:08:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.528 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.528 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.072, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QarBzfXdvZr5 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 11:08:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (nostrum-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:267::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 161B121E8029 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 11:08:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from dn3-123.estacado.net (vicuna-alt.estacado.net [75.53.54.121]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q22J8HhO043287 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 2 Mar 2012 13:08:18 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ben Campbell In-Reply-To: <4F50F7BB.5030306@alum.mit.edu> Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 13:08:17 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <13674D46-6517-44C3-8172-3580158EE76B@nostrum.com> References: <4F4FF06F.6040906@ericsson.com> <79EDE431-3574-4BDF-82E0-4C803511A183@nostrum.com> <4F4FF778.8000402@stpeter.im> <03F68416-1641-4465-9913-9B2740ADBD53@nostrum.com> <4F4FFCD7.1060700@stpeter.im> <5D79B0DC-24F4-44A2-92F5-F3CB6D1BACC1@nostrum.com> <4F50F7BB.5030306@alum.mit.edu> To: Paul Kyzivat X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 75.53.54.121 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) Cc: simple@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Simple] SIMPLE chat: Internationalization and normalization of nicknames X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 19:08:21 -0000 On Mar 2, 2012, at 10:39 AM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: > On 3/1/12 5:54 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >=20 >>> OK. It seems that you might also be making some authorization = decisions >>> based on the nickname, e.g., if you've reserved a nickname then I = can't >>> get that nickname (can I join the chatroom but just not with that >>> nickname?). >>>=20 >>=20 >> Yes, that is true. We do need an equality operator in some sense. = (And yes, assuming no other policy issue was blocking you, you could = still use a different nickname) >=20 > And this presumably needs some notion of canonicalization, so that you = can't get two nicknames that compare as different but *look* the same. That's going to be a very hard problem to solve. I suspect we will end = up with text that points out that this can happen, but leave it up to = implementors to figure out what to do about it. (Peter: Do you have your Cherokee example handy?) >=20 > Thanks, > Paul > _______________________________________________ > Simple mailing list > Simple@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple From stpeter@stpeter.im Fri Mar 2 13:23:52 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AB9A21E8021 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 13:23:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.788 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.788 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.811, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CpSO60JzvNMW for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 13:23:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 978F321E8019 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 13:23:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from squire.local (unknown [64.101.72.114]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 40E3B40058; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 14:35:31 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4F513A61.30103@stpeter.im> Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 14:23:45 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ben Campbell References: <4F4FF06F.6040906@ericsson.com> <79EDE431-3574-4BDF-82E0-4C803511A183@nostrum.com> <4F4FF778.8000402@stpeter.im> <03F68416-1641-4465-9913-9B2740ADBD53@nostrum.com> <4F4FFCD7.1060700@stpeter.im> <5D79B0DC-24F4-44A2-92F5-F3CB6D1BACC1@nostrum.com> <4F50F7BB.5030306@alum.mit.edu> <13674D46-6517-44C3-8172-3580158EE76B@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <13674D46-6517-44C3-8172-3580158EE76B@nostrum.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.5 OpenPGP: url=https://stpeter.im/stpeter.asc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: simple@ietf.org, Paul Kyzivat Subject: Re: [Simple] SIMPLE chat: Internationalization and normalization of nicknames X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 21:23:52 -0000 On 3/2/12 12:08 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: > > On Mar 2, 2012, at 10:39 AM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: > >> On 3/1/12 5:54 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >> >>>> OK. It seems that you might also be making some authorization >>>> decisions based on the nickname, e.g., if you've reserved a >>>> nickname then I can't get that nickname (can I join the >>>> chatroom but just not with that nickname?). >>>> >>> >>> Yes, that is true. We do need an equality operator in some sense. >>> (And yes, assuming no other policy issue was blocking you, you >>> could still use a different nickname) >> >> And this presumably needs some notion of canonicalization, so that >> you can't get two nicknames that compare as different but *look* >> the same. > > That's going to be a very hard problem to solve. I suspect we will > end up with text that points out that this can happen, but leave it > up to implementors to figure out what to do about it. The problem of so-called confusable characters is impossible to solve. See for instance: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-precis-framework-01#section-10.3 The Unicode Consortium has gone a bit farther: http://unicode.org/reports/tr39/#Confusable_Detection You can nibble around the edges here, but foolproof solutions cannot be had (in large measure because humans are so easily fooled). > (Peter: Do you have your Cherokee example handy?) http://stpeter.im/journal/1420.html That is: ášáŽ¢áŽµá‹áŽ¢á‹á’ != STPETER (and Cherokee Letter Quv = á‹ is not defined by the Unicode standard as confusable with, mapped to, or otherwise equivalent to Latin Uppercase E despite their surface similarity). Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ From pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu Fri Mar 2 18:44:28 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 485B621F845E for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 18:44:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.579 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.579 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yemRLCzqulHf for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 18:44:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta04.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta04.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.62.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C826911E8076 for ; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 18:44:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta10.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.28]) by qmta04.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id gqb11i00J0cZkys54qkR3W; Sat, 03 Mar 2012 02:44:25 +0000 Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([24.62.229.5]) by omta10.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id gqkQ1i00907duvL3WqkQ9W; Sat, 03 Mar 2012 02:44:25 +0000 Message-ID: <4F518587.20209@alum.mit.edu> Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 21:44:23 -0500 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Saint-Andre References: <4F4FF06F.6040906@ericsson.com> <79EDE431-3574-4BDF-82E0-4C803511A183@nostrum.com> <4F4FF778.8000402@stpeter.im> <03F68416-1641-4465-9913-9B2740ADBD53@nostrum.com> <4F4FFCD7.1060700@stpeter.im> <5D79B0DC-24F4-44A2-92F5-F3CB6D1BACC1@nostrum.com> <4F50F7BB.5030306@alum.mit.edu> <13674D46-6517-44C3-8172-3580158EE76B@nostrum.com> <4F513A61.30103@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <4F513A61.30103@stpeter.im> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: simple@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Simple] SIMPLE chat: Internationalization and normalization of nicknames X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2012 02:44:28 -0000 OK, you guys have obviously gone down this path before. I'm happy to have you suggest what is reasonable and what is not. Thanks, Paul On 3/2/12 4:23 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 3/2/12 12:08 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >> >> On Mar 2, 2012, at 10:39 AM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >> >>> On 3/1/12 5:54 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >>> >>>>> OK. It seems that you might also be making some authorization >>>>> decisions based on the nickname, e.g., if you've reserved a >>>>> nickname then I can't get that nickname (can I join the >>>>> chatroom but just not with that nickname?). >>>>> >>>> >>>> Yes, that is true. We do need an equality operator in some sense. >>>> (And yes, assuming no other policy issue was blocking you, you >>>> could still use a different nickname) >>> >>> And this presumably needs some notion of canonicalization, so that >>> you can't get two nicknames that compare as different but *look* >>> the same. >> >> That's going to be a very hard problem to solve. I suspect we will >> end up with text that points out that this can happen, but leave it >> up to implementors to figure out what to do about it. > > The problem of so-called confusable characters is impossible to solve. > See for instance: > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-precis-framework-01#section-10.3 > > The Unicode Consortium has gone a bit farther: > > http://unicode.org/reports/tr39/#Confusable_Detection > > You can nibble around the edges here, but foolproof solutions cannot be > had (in large measure because humans are so easily fooled). > >> (Peter: Do you have your Cherokee example handy?) > > http://stpeter.im/journal/1420.html > > That is: ášáŽ¢áŽµá‹áŽ¢á‹á’ != STPETER (and Cherokee Letter Quv = á‹ is not defined > by the Unicode standard as confusable with, mapped to, or otherwise > equivalent to Latin Uppercase E despite their surface similarity). > > Peter > From stpeter@stpeter.im Mon Mar 5 09:26:18 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1CD821F8802 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 09:26:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.785 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.785 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.186, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3Ksj8v4166Cl for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 09:26:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B2CA21F8816 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 09:26:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from squire.local (unknown [64.101.72.114]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4510840058; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 10:38:11 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4F54F73B.3000203@stpeter.im> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 10:26:19 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Kyzivat References: <4F4FF06F.6040906@ericsson.com> <79EDE431-3574-4BDF-82E0-4C803511A183@nostrum.com> <4F4FF778.8000402@stpeter.im> <03F68416-1641-4465-9913-9B2740ADBD53@nostrum.com> <4F4FFCD7.1060700@stpeter.im> <5D79B0DC-24F4-44A2-92F5-F3CB6D1BACC1@nostrum.com> <4F50F7BB.5030306@alum.mit.edu> <13674D46-6517-44C3-8172-3580158EE76B@nostrum.com> <4F513A61.30103@stpeter.im> <4F518587.20209@alum.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <4F518587.20209@alum.mit.edu> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.5 OpenPGP: url=https://stpeter.im/stpeter.asc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: simple@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Simple] SIMPLE chat: Internationalization and normalization of nicknames X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 17:26:18 -0000 On 3/2/12 7:44 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: > OK, you guys have obviously gone down this path before. > I'm happy to have you suggest what is reasonable and what is not. BTW I am pushing to submit version 00 of a precis-nickname I-D today, which should provide a starting point for discussion. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ From stpeter@stpeter.im Mon Mar 5 14:03:50 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D34E221F8871 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 14:03:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.779 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.779 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.180, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TWshoIecdGcN for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 14:03:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 358D221F8862 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 14:03:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from squire.local (unknown [64.101.72.114]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1D11940058 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 15:15:44 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4F553844.3020207@stpeter.im> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 15:03:48 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Simple WG References: <20120305220012.23949.48147.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20120305220012.23949.48147.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.5 OpenPGP: url=https://stpeter.im/stpeter.asc X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <20120305220012.23949.48147.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Simple] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-saintandre-precis-nickname-00.txt X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 22:03:50 -0000 FYI, as promised. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: I-D Action: draft-saintandre-precis-nickname-00.txt Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 14:00:12 -0800 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Preparation and Comparison of Nicknames Author(s) : Peter Saint-Andre Filename : draft-saintandre-precis-nickname-00.txt Pages : 6 Date : 2012-03-05 This document describes how to prepare and compare Unicode strings representing nicknames, primarily as used within textual chatrooms. This profile is intended to be used by chatroom technologies based on both the Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP) and the Message Session Relay Protocol (MSRP). A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-saintandre-precis-nickname-00.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-saintandre-precis-nickname-00.txt _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt From ben@nostrum.com Mon Mar 5 14:16:20 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5CA821F8882 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 14:16:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.532 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.532 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.068, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u6SivYWvwmlh for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 14:16:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (nostrum-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:267::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D73BC21F8870 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 14:16:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from frankenstein.test.estacado.net (vicuna-alt.estacado.net [75.53.54.121]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q25MGIp8054643 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 5 Mar 2012 16:16:19 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ben Campbell In-Reply-To: <4F553844.3020207@stpeter.im> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 16:16:18 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <866E8F3E-508F-4868-82AD-1636B72B3AA9@nostrum.com> References: <20120305220012.23949.48147.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4F553844.3020207@stpeter.im> To: Peter Saint-Andre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 75.53.54.121 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) Cc: Simple WG Subject: Re: [Simple] I-D Action: draft-saintandre-precis-nickname-00.txt X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 22:16:20 -0000 Excellent! Thanks, Peter! Miguel, Geir Arne, and everyone else following this issue in SIMPLE: = Does this draft meet our needs for simple-chat? Thanks! Ben. On Mar 5, 2012, at 4:03 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > FYI, as promised. >=20 > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: I-D Action: draft-saintandre-precis-nickname-00.txt > Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 14:00:12 -0800 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. >=20 > Title : Preparation and Comparison of Nicknames > Author(s) : Peter Saint-Andre > Filename : draft-saintandre-precis-nickname-00.txt > Pages : 6 > Date : 2012-03-05 >=20 > This document describes how to prepare and compare Unicode strings > representing nicknames, primarily as used within textual chatrooms. > This profile is intended to be used by chatroom technologies based = on > both the Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP) and the > Message Session Relay Protocol (MSRP). >=20 >=20 > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > = http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-saintandre-precis-nickname-00.tx= t >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: > = ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-saintandre-precis-nickname-00.txt= >=20 > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > _______________________________________________ > Simple mailing list > Simple@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple From stpeter@stpeter.im Mon Mar 5 14:18:20 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19E8121F881F for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 14:18:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.777 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.777 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.178, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cYoTf4s9qqh9 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 14:18:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E9D721F87F8 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 14:18:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from squire.local (unknown [64.101.72.114]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 30B1740058; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 15:30:13 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4F553BAA.3000803@stpeter.im> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 15:18:18 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ben Campbell References: <20120305220012.23949.48147.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4F553844.3020207@stpeter.im> <866E8F3E-508F-4868-82AD-1636B72B3AA9@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <866E8F3E-508F-4868-82AD-1636B72B3AA9@nostrum.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.5 OpenPGP: url=https://stpeter.im/stpeter.asc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Simple WG Subject: Re: [Simple] I-D Action: draft-saintandre-precis-nickname-00.txt X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 22:18:20 -0000 On 3/5/12 3:16 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: > Excellent! Thanks, Peter! > > Miguel, Geir Arne, and everyone else following this issue in SIMPLE: Does this draft meet our needs for simple-chat? This is a first pass. IMHO it could be augmented with more details about the avoidance of confusable characters, but that's quite a bit more work and we need to figure out if the benefits are worth the cost. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ From ben@nostrum.com Mon Mar 5 14:21:56 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAB6C21E804C for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 14:21:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.535 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.535 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.065, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 96BDn0BNKEb8 for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 14:21:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (nostrum-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:267::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18E7F21E804A for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 14:21:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from frankenstein.test.estacado.net (vicuna-alt.estacado.net [75.53.54.121]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q25MLrMP055478 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 5 Mar 2012 16:21:54 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ben Campbell In-Reply-To: <4F553BAA.3000803@stpeter.im> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 16:21:53 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <33AC0540-009B-4C6B-B6E9-0089ABFA8262@nostrum.com> References: <20120305220012.23949.48147.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4F553844.3020207@stpeter.im> <866E8F3E-508F-4868-82AD-1636B72B3AA9@nostrum.com> <4F553BAA.3000803@stpeter.im> To: Peter Saint-Andre X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 75.53.54.121 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) Cc: Simple WG Subject: Re: [Simple] I-D Action: draft-saintandre-precis-nickname-00.txt X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 22:21:56 -0000 On Mar 5, 2012, at 4:18 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 3/5/12 3:16 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >> Excellent! Thanks, Peter! >>=20 >> Miguel, Geir Arne, and everyone else following this issue in SIMPLE: = Does this draft meet our needs for simple-chat? >=20 > This is a first pass. Of course--I should adjust my question to say "is this on the right = track to meet our needs for simple-chat?" :-) > IMHO it could be augmented with more details about > the avoidance of confusable characters, but that's quite a bit more = work > and we need to figure out if the benefits are worth the cost. Agreed, and whether that decision is necessarily the same for MSRP as = for XMPP. >=20 > Peter >=20 > --=20 > Peter Saint-Andre > https://stpeter.im/ >=20 >=20 From stpeter@stpeter.im Mon Mar 5 14:25:34 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B765A21F887F for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 14:25:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.774 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.774 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.175, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F+Unl9o8R1ji for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 14:25:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4633A21F887C for ; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 14:25:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from squire.local (unknown [64.101.72.114]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0D65F40058; Mon, 5 Mar 2012 15:37:27 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4F553D5C.4090608@stpeter.im> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 15:25:32 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ben Campbell References: <20120305220012.23949.48147.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4F553844.3020207@stpeter.im> <866E8F3E-508F-4868-82AD-1636B72B3AA9@nostrum.com> <4F553BAA.3000803@stpeter.im> <33AC0540-009B-4C6B-B6E9-0089ABFA8262@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <33AC0540-009B-4C6B-B6E9-0089ABFA8262@nostrum.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.5 OpenPGP: url=https://stpeter.im/stpeter.asc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Simple WG Subject: Re: [Simple] I-D Action: draft-saintandre-precis-nickname-00.txt X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 22:25:34 -0000 On 3/5/12 3:21 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: > > On Mar 5, 2012, at 4:18 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > >> On 3/5/12 3:16 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >>> Excellent! Thanks, Peter! >>> >>> Miguel, Geir Arne, and everyone else following this issue in SIMPLE: Does this draft meet our needs for simple-chat? >> >> This is a first pass. > > Of course--I should adjust my question to say "is this on the right track to meet our needs for simple-chat?" :-) I think it's on the right track, but I'm biased. :) >> IMHO it could be augmented with more details about >> the avoidance of confusable characters, but that's quite a bit more work >> and we need to figure out if the benefits are worth the cost. > > Agreed, and whether that decision is necessarily the same for MSRP as for XMPP. True. Even if some folks decide to go down the "avoid confusables" path, I think it would be optional -- something that goes above and beyond what is strictly necessary from a PRECIS point of view. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ From miguel.a.garcia@ericsson.com Wed Mar 7 03:00:41 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C35DF21F86E2 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 03:00:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.386 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.386 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.213, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oyx+OlexRQtj for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 03:00:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (mailgw9.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.57]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D051B21F8779 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 03:00:40 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb39-b7bf2ae0000069a1-87-4f573fd7785c Received: from esessmw0197.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by mailgw9.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 9D.43.27041.7DF375F4; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 12:00:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from [159.107.24.251] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0197.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.88) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.213.0; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 12:00:38 +0100 Message-ID: <4F573FD6.6020101@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 12:00:38 +0100 From: "Miguel A. Garcia" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Saint-Andre References: <20120305220012.23949.48147.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4F553844.3020207@stpeter.im> <866E8F3E-508F-4868-82AD-1636B72B3AA9@nostrum.com> <4F553BAA.3000803@stpeter.im> <33AC0540-009B-4C6B-B6E9-0089ABFA8262@nostrum.com> <4F553D5C.4090608@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <4F553D5C.4090608@stpeter.im> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Cc: Simple WG Subject: Re: [Simple] I-D Action: draft-saintandre-precis-nickname-00.txt X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 11:00:41 -0000 Hi guys, I think this draft is a very good start. So, I believe the SIMPLE chat draft should just add one sentence with a normative statement pointing this draft, and we are done. Do we all agree that this is the path forward? /Miguel On 05/03/2012 23:25, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 3/5/12 3:21 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >> >> On Mar 5, 2012, at 4:18 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> >>> On 3/5/12 3:16 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >>>> Excellent! Thanks, Peter! >>>> >>>> Miguel, Geir Arne, and everyone else following this issue in SIMPLE: Does this draft meet our needs for simple-chat? >>> >>> This is a first pass. >> >> Of course--I should adjust my question to say "is this on the right track to meet our needs for simple-chat?" :-) > > I think it's on the right track, but I'm biased. :) > >>> IMHO it could be augmented with more details about >>> the avoidance of confusable characters, but that's quite a bit more work >>> and we need to figure out if the benefits are worth the cost. >> >> Agreed, and whether that decision is necessarily the same for MSRP as for XMPP. > > True. Even if some folks decide to go down the "avoid confusables" path, > I think it would be optional -- something that goes above and beyond > what is strictly necessary from a PRECIS point of view. > > Peter > -- Miguel A. Garcia +34-91-339-3608 Ericsson Spain From geirsand@cisco.com Wed Mar 7 04:51:05 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 400EF21F8665 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 04:51:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.135 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.135 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hiYhdV5dl0Cv for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 04:51:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from ams-iport-2.cisco.com (ams-iport-2.cisco.com [144.254.224.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26E5221F8663 for ; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 04:51:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=geirsand@cisco.com; l=7589; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1331124663; x=1332334263; h=date:subject:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=wEjNFKdXgsKbcPvet/xR7J+9e+A8oXVQlUAhq3+zkrk=; b=OyYNtADIkWR3rrmuw5YK70zezYXH3ev50XJXRnuRpdyDVEQ46GUz28JB DrNypha0/byrYkXYCDqn8JH2rySj8usxXhqX60WRodoycOVMwd9pFhLno iAME2K/Z6d1pEjOl4beHAg2Qf2vP+RjawiJsS/iwUWNXglsFY6V+cNMku w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: An0IAHtYV0+Q/khR/2dsb2JhbABDgkWxWXYCgQeCCgEBAQMBAQEBDwEqMQsFBwYBCBEDAQIBVR8JCAEBBAENBQkZh2EFC5pTAZ8lkG8EiB+NIoskgzOBQIJk X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,545,1325462400"; d="scan'208,217";a="67888712" Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com ([144.254.72.81]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Mar 2012 12:51:01 +0000 Received: from xbh-ams-101.cisco.com (xbh-ams-101.cisco.com [144.254.74.71]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q27Cp1C5014315; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 12:51:01 GMT Received: from xmb-ams-213.cisco.com ([144.254.75.24]) by xbh-ams-101.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 7 Mar 2012 13:51:02 +0100 Received: from 173.38.133.8 ([173.38.133.8]) by XMB-AMS-213.cisco.com ([144.254.75.24]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 12:51:01 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.32.0.111121 Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 13:51:00 +0100 From: Geir Arne Sandbakken To: Ben Campbell , Peter Saint-Andre Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Simple] I-D Action: draft-saintandre-precis-nickname-00.txt Thread-Index: Acz8YPJagqddD3nxl0G4YyTGsntCaw== In-Reply-To: <866E8F3E-508F-4868-82AD-1636B72B3AA9@nostrum.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3413973060_11593944" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Mar 2012 12:51:02.0060 (UTC) FILETIME=[F39526C0:01CCFC60] Cc: Simple WG Subject: Re: [Simple] I-D Action: draft-saintandre-precis-nickname-00.txt X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 12:51:05 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3413973060_11593944 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Ben, Peter, Can=B9t say I=B9m not a cautious about adding normative references this late i= n the process, but the internationalization of nicknames is clearly under specified. Moving towards having a common set of rules for handling nicknames should help implementers, and Peter=B9s draft seems to provide exactly what we want. Thanks, Geir A On 3/5/12 11:16 PM, "Ben Campbell" wrote: > Excellent! Thanks, Peter! >=20 > Miguel, Geir Arne, and everyone else following this issue in SIMPLE: Does= this > draft meet our needs for simple-chat? >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > Ben. >=20 > On Mar 5, 2012, at 4:03 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >=20 >> > FYI, as promised. >> >=20 >> > -------- Original Message -------- >> > Subject: I-D Action: draft-saintandre-precis-nickname-00.txt >> > Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 14:00:12 -0800 >> > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org >> > Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org >> > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >> > directories. >> >=20 >> > Title : Preparation and Comparison of Nicknames >> > Author(s) : Peter Saint-Andre >> > Filename : draft-saintandre-precis-nickname-00.txt >> > Pages : 6 >> > Date : 2012-03-05 >> >=20 >> > This document describes how to prepare and compare Unicode strings >> > representing nicknames, primarily as used within textual chatrooms. >> > This profile is intended to be used by chatroom technologies based o= n >> > both the Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP) and the >> > Message Session Relay Protocol (MSRP). >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >> > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-saintandre-precis-nickname-0= 0.txt >> >=20 >> > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >> >=20 >> > This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: >> > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-saintandre-precis-nickname-00= .txt >> >=20 >> > _______________________________________________ >> > I-D-Announce mailing list >> > I-D-Announce@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce >> > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >> > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Simple mailing list >> > Simple@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Simple mailing list > Simple@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple --B_3413973060_11593944 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [Simple] I-D Action: draft-saintandre-precis-nickname-00.txt</TI= TLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt= '>Ben, Peter,<BR> <BR> Can’t say I’m not a  cautious about adding normative refer= ences this late in the process,  but the internationalization of nickna= mes is clearly under specified.  Moving towards having a common set of = rules for handling nicknames should help implementers,  and Peter’= ;s draft seems to provide exactly what we want.  <BR> <BR> Thanks,<BR> Geir A<BR> <BR> On 3/5/12 11:16 PM, "Ben Campbell" <<a href=3D"ben@nostrum.com">= ben@nostrum.com</a>> wrote:<BR> <BR> </SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Consolas, Courier New,= Courier"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'>Excellent! Thanks, Peter!<BR> <BR> Miguel, Geir Arne, and everyone else following this issue in SIMPLE: Does t= his draft meet our needs for simple-chat?<BR> <BR> Thanks!<BR> <BR> Ben.<BR> <BR> On Mar 5, 2012, at 4:03 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:<BR> <BR> > FYI, as promised.<BR> > <BR> > -------- Original Message --------<BR> > Subject: I-D Action: draft-saintandre-precis-nickname-00.txt<BR> > Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 14:00:12 -0800<BR> > From: <a href=3D"internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><= BR> > Reply-To: <a href=3D"internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org<= /a><BR> > To: <a href=3D"i-d-announce@ietf.org">i-d-announce@ietf.org</a><BR> > <BR> > <BR> > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts<BR> > directories.<BR> > <BR> >  Title          &nbs= p;: Preparation and Comparison of Nicknames<BR> >  Author(s)       : Peter Saint-Andr= e<BR> >  Filename        : draft-saint= andre-precis-nickname-00.txt<BR> >  Pages          &nbs= p;: 6<BR> >  Date           = ; : 2012-03-05<BR> > <BR> >   This document describes how to prepare and compare Unicode= strings<BR> >   representing nicknames, primarily as used within textual c= hatrooms.<BR> >   This profile is intended to be used by chatroom technologi= es based on<BR> >   both the Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP)= and the<BR> >   Message Session Relay Protocol (MSRP).<BR> > <BR> > <BR> > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:<BR> > <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-saintandre-precis-n= ickname-00.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-saintandre-precis-= nickname-00.txt</a><BR> > <BR> > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<BR> > <a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/inter= net-drafts/</a><BR> > <BR> > This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:<BR> > <a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-saintandre-precis-ni= ckname-00.txt">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-saintandre-precis-ni= ckname-00.txt</a><BR> > <BR> > _______________________________________________<BR> > I-D-Announce mailing list<BR> > <a href=3D"I-D-Announce@ietf.org">I-D-Announce@ietf.org</a><BR> > <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce">https://w= ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce</a><BR> > Internet-Draft directories: <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html">= http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html</a><BR> > or <a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt">ftp://ftp.ietf.= org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt</a><BR> > _______________________________________________<BR> > Simple mailing list<BR> > <a href=3D"Simple@ietf.org">Simple@ietf.org</a><BR> > <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple">https://www.iet= f.org/mailman/listinfo/simple</a><BR> <BR> _______________________________________________<BR> Simple mailing list<BR> <a href=3D"Simple@ietf.org">Simple@ietf.org</a><BR> <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple">https://www.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/simple</a><BR> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> </BODY> </HTML> --B_3413973060_11593944-- From simonhamelech@gmail.com Tue Mar 6 12:51:21 2012 Return-Path: <simonhamelech@gmail.com> X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D12CD21E80A3 for <simple@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 6 Mar 2012 12:51:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oUuaRFmQCvA0 for <simple@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 6 Mar 2012 12:51:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qy0-f172.google.com (mail-qy0-f172.google.com [209.85.216.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4526D21E8024 for <simple@ietf.org>; Tue, 6 Mar 2012 12:51:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by qcsq13 with SMTP id q13so3420895qcs.31 for <simple@ietf.org>; Tue, 06 Mar 2012 12:51:16 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of simonhamelech@gmail.com designates 10.229.78.203 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.229.78.203; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of simonhamelech@gmail.com designates 10.229.78.203 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=simonhamelech@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=simonhamelech@gmail.com Received: from mr.google.com ([10.229.78.203]) by 10.229.78.203 with SMTP id m11mr3799133qck.86.1331067076933 (num_hops = 1); Tue, 06 Mar 2012 12:51:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=dansyv7Oox7FnppuTQPd4UlXvAz4nRx3gYAUYbWI48o=; b=pKlTSP8zm6rzVIItOoJ6egGb4TKQ7VknVoSa+9SrBbtHVWoFRcdhh7wp/5/ocFzYWH TLD1e28L+BDtoTNupaL9qOLyt+Cqu4FM86KRjP6/Ib6YRzbMe2gQIXiw97zaMRGu8+WQ IcwqlUPWWleRa7YwRulyqCVVo4gBEJbsWnObp8xiSiGPsTrfCl70gVNejwEtrzzVxfwc 80Cp8bbAM1yhzAKtD8SRzmr+zeXHhD2KpKgsfV43NEX2bhrqvr6/QoPvtINGRp8oAtVs tc5c6J/N7stq0Jb4sbsxEnjCfOUfYEOmXDX+thrLzDnePTBQW2SaNPUWuoGCl+c+hrtJ m0Mg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.78.203 with SMTP id m11mr3246074qck.86.1331067076728; Tue, 06 Mar 2012 12:51:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.48.13 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Mar 2012 12:51:16 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <F344F069C7C5D643A4DC63A15E8ED5A3322103B9@ISRTLVEXMX2.interwise.com> References: <F344F069C7C5D643A4DC63A15E8ED5A33220CA00@ISRTLVEXMX2.interwise.com> <F344F069C7C5D643A4DC63A15E8ED5A3322103B9@ISRTLVEXMX2.interwise.com> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 22:51:16 +0200 Message-ID: <CAKqcNA-zkZSY0oDDHBDo+z=zLPEB5rvHfx-Cdva9gcTg_GQV8g@mail.gmail.com> From: Simon Shaw <simonhamelech@gmail.com> To: simple@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary=00235429e04047d72104ba993454 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 06:32:07 -0800 Subject: [Simple] draft-ietf-simple-chat - DateTime header X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions <simple.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/simple>, <mailto:simple-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/simple> List-Post: <mailto:simple@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:simple-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple>, <mailto:simple-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 11:10:37 -0000 --00235429e04047d72104ba993454 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00235429e04047d71d04ba993453 --00235429e04047d71d04ba993453 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi,**** **** I was wondering whether the DateTime header that is used in the MSRP Send message could also be used in the MSRP 200 OK response?**** In a multi-party conference (and possibly in point to point) the ordering of messages sent and received should be done by a common clock, that of the MSRP switch, as there is no guarantee that the timestamps generated by the various participants is synchronized.**** I apologize in advance if this is not the correct forum to ask questions or make suggestions.**** **** Regards,**** ** ** *Simon Shaw* *Team Leader, Unified Communications Signaling* *AT&T Unified Communications *Phone: +972.3.976.7714**** Cell: +972.54.560.6912**** Fax: +972.3.976.7712**** Simon.shaw@att.com**** *Get **AT&T Connect for Mobile** **now!* *iPhone<http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/at-t-connect-mobile/id318798264?mt=8>| BB <http://downloads.uc.att.com/BB/Public/Latest/En/KB/att_connect.jad> | iPad<http://itunes.apple.com/il/app/at-t-connect-mobile-application/id459888209?mt=8> ***** [image: Description: Description: cid:image001.png@01C8E00D.2EC2BC90]**** ** ** ** ** --00235429e04047d71d04ba993453 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blu= e" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">I was wondering whether the DateTime header that is = used in the MSRP Send message could also be used in the MSRP 200 OK respons= e?<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">In a multi-party conference (and possibly in point t= o point) the ordering of messages sent and received should be done by a com= mon clock, that of the MSRP switch, as there is no guarantee that the times= tamps generated by the various participants is synchronized.<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">I apologize in advance if this is not the correct fo= rum to ask questions or make suggestions.<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa= n></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Simon Shaw</span></= b><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><br> <b>Team Leader, Unified Communications Signaling<u></u><u></u></b></span></= p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">AT&T Unified Co= mmunications<br> </span></b><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Phone: <a href=3D"tel:%2B972.3.976= .7714" value=3D"+97239767714" target=3D"_blank">+972.3.976.7714</a><u></u><= u></u></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Cell: <a href=3D"tel:%= 2B972.54.560.6912" value=3D"+972545606912" target=3D"_blank">+972.54.560.69= 12</a><u></u><u></u></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Fax: <a href=3D"tel:%2= B972.3.976.7712" value=3D"+97239767712" target=3D"_blank">+972.3.976.7712</= a><u></u><u></u></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><a href=3D"mailto:Simo= n.shaw@att.com" target=3D"_blank">Simon.shaw@att.com</a><u></u><u></u></spa= n></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:#5f497a"= >Get </span> </i></b><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:#e36c0a">AT&T Conne= ct for Mobile</span></i></b><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:#1f= 497d"> </span></i></b><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:#5f497a">now!<u>= </u><u></u></span></i></b></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:#7030a0"><a= href=3D"http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/at-t-connect-mobile/id318798264?mt= =3D8" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#7030a0">iPhone</span></a> | <a href=3D"http://downloads.uc.att.com/BB/Public/Latest/En/KB/att_connect.j= ad" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#7030a0">BB</span></a> | <a href=3D"http://itunes.apple.com/il/app/at-t-connect-mobile-application/i= d459888209?mt=3D8" target=3D"_blank"> <span style=3D"color:#7030a0">iPad</span></a>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0</span></i><span s= tyle=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><img border=3D"0" widt= h=3D"186" height=3D"65" src=3D"cid:image001.png@01CCFBEB.65323FA0" alt=3D"D= escription: Description: cid:image001.png@01C8E00D.2EC2BC90"><u></u><u></u>= </span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa= n></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></spa= n></p> </div> </div> </div><br></div> --00235429e04047d71d04ba993453-- --00235429e04047d72104ba993454 Content-Type: image/png; name="image001.png" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <image001.png@01CCFBEB.65323FA0> X-Attachment-Id: 21880f6bfcf9c1cd_0.1 iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAALoAAABBCAYAAABmW74rAAAAAXNSR0ICQMB9xQAAAAlwSFlzAAAO xAAADsQBlSsOGwAAABl0RVh0U29mdHdhcmUATWljcm9zb2Z0IE9mZmljZX/tNXEAAD7TSURBVHja 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D579A21F87D3 for <simple@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 06:36:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.546 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.546 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.054, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8mvlxRm+AnMh for <simple@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 06:36:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (nostrum-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:267::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 083D421F87BD for <simple@ietf.org>; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 06:36:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (cpe-76-187-92-156.tx.res.rr.com [76.187.92.156]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q27EaV1N039206 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Mar 2012 08:36:32 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <4F573FD6.6020101@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 08:36:34 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <A4704FBA-5813-4230-AE65-8BA38AE7437A@nostrum.com> References: <20120305220012.23949.48147.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4F553844.3020207@stpeter.im> <866E8F3E-508F-4868-82AD-1636B72B3AA9@nostrum.com> <4F553BAA.3000803@stpeter.im> <33AC0540-009B-4C6B-B6E9-0089ABFA8262@nostrum.com> <4F553D5C.4090608@stpeter.im> <4F573FD6.6020101@ericsson.com> To: "Miguel A. Garcia" <Miguel.A.Garcia@ericsson.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 76.187.92.156 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) Cc: Simple WG <simple@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Simple] I-D Action: draft-saintandre-precis-nickname-00.txt X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions <simple.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/simple>, <mailto:simple-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/simple> List-Post: <mailto:simple@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:simple-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple>, <mailto:simple-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 14:36:36 -0000 (as individual) I concur, although I might suggest a non-normative sentence or two = explaining why we think that the simple-chat usage of nicknames fits = that draft, and explicitly punting on confusable characters. That's all = covered in Peter's draft, but it wouldn't hurt to repeat it here. If it = takes more than two sentences, it's probably too much. Thanks! Ben. On Mar 7, 2012, at 5:00 AM, Miguel A. Garcia wrote: > Hi guys, >=20 > I think this draft is a very good start. >=20 > So, I believe the SIMPLE chat draft should just add one sentence with = a normative statement pointing this draft, and we are done. >=20 > Do we all agree that this is the path forward? >=20 > /Miguel >=20 > On 05/03/2012 23:25, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> On 3/5/12 3:21 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >>>=20 >>> On Mar 5, 2012, at 4:18 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>>=20 >>>> On 3/5/12 3:16 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >>>>> Excellent! Thanks, Peter! >>>>>=20 >>>>> Miguel, Geir Arne, and everyone else following this issue in = SIMPLE: Does this draft meet our needs for simple-chat? >>>>=20 >>>> This is a first pass. >>>=20 >>> Of course--I should adjust my question to say "is this on the right = track to meet our needs for simple-chat?" :-) >>=20 >> I think it's on the right track, but I'm biased. :) >>=20 >>>> IMHO it could be augmented with more details about >>>> the avoidance of confusable characters, but that's quite a bit more = work >>>> and we need to figure out if the benefits are worth the cost. >>>=20 >>> Agreed, and whether that decision is necessarily the same for MSRP = as for XMPP. >>=20 >> True. Even if some folks decide to go down the "avoid confusables" = path, >> I think it would be optional -- something that goes above and beyond >> what is strictly necessary from a PRECIS point of view. >>=20 >> Peter >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > Miguel A. Garcia > +34-91-339-3608 > Ericsson Spain From pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu Wed Mar 7 08:46:42 2012 Return-Path: <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu> X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A97DA21F86DB for <simple@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 08:46:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.586 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.586 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.013, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tZbqYYuIPtU8 for <simple@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 08:46:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from qmta12.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net (qmta12.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net [76.96.59.227]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAC4B21F864E for <simple@ietf.org>; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 08:46:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from omta21.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.72]) by qmta12.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id igl71i0041ZXKqc5Cgmihv; Wed, 07 Mar 2012 16:46:42 +0000 Received: from Paul-Kyzivats-MacBook-Pro.local ([24.62.229.5]) by omta21.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id igmi1i00G07duvL3hgmixd; Wed, 07 Mar 2012 16:46:42 +0000 Message-ID: <4F5790F0.7090002@alum.mit.edu> Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 11:46:40 -0500 From: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:9.0) Gecko/20111222 Thunderbird/9.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: simple@ietf.org References: <20120305220012.23949.48147.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4F553844.3020207@stpeter.im> <866E8F3E-508F-4868-82AD-1636B72B3AA9@nostrum.com> <4F553BAA.3000803@stpeter.im> <33AC0540-009B-4C6B-B6E9-0089ABFA8262@nostrum.com> <4F553D5C.4090608@stpeter.im> <4F573FD6.6020101@ericsson.com> <A4704FBA-5813-4230-AE65-8BA38AE7437A@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <A4704FBA-5813-4230-AE65-8BA38AE7437A@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Simple] I-D Action: draft-saintandre-precis-nickname-00.txt X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions <simple.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/simple>, <mailto:simple-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/simple> List-Post: <mailto:simple@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:simple-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple>, <mailto:simple-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 16:46:42 -0000 On 3/7/12 9:36 AM, Ben Campbell wrote: > (as individual) > > I concur, although I might suggest a non-normative sentence or two explaining why we think that the simple-chat usage of nicknames fits that draft, and explicitly punting on confusable characters. That's all covered in Peter's draft, but it wouldn't hurt to repeat it here. If it takes more than two sentences, it's probably too much. I agree. But note that this will be a normative dependency, and so will stall the progression of this draft until that one progresses. Thanks, Paul > Thanks! > > Ben. > > On Mar 7, 2012, at 5:00 AM, Miguel A. Garcia wrote: > >> Hi guys, >> >> I think this draft is a very good start. >> >> So, I believe the SIMPLE chat draft should just add one sentence with a normative statement pointing this draft, and we are done. >> >> Do we all agree that this is the path forward? >> >> /Miguel >> >> On 05/03/2012 23:25, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>> On 3/5/12 3:21 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >>>> >>>> On Mar 5, 2012, at 4:18 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 3/5/12 3:16 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >>>>>> Excellent! Thanks, Peter! >>>>>> >>>>>> Miguel, Geir Arne, and everyone else following this issue in SIMPLE: Does this draft meet our needs for simple-chat? >>>>> >>>>> This is a first pass. >>>> >>>> Of course--I should adjust my question to say "is this on the right track to meet our needs for simple-chat?" :-) >>> >>> I think it's on the right track, but I'm biased. :) >>> >>>>> IMHO it could be augmented with more details about >>>>> the avoidance of confusable characters, but that's quite a bit more work >>>>> and we need to figure out if the benefits are worth the cost. >>>> >>>> Agreed, and whether that decision is necessarily the same for MSRP as for XMPP. >>> >>> True. Even if some folks decide to go down the "avoid confusables" path, >>> I think it would be optional -- something that goes above and beyond >>> what is strictly necessary from a PRECIS point of view. >>> >>> Peter >>> >> >> -- >> Miguel A. Garcia >> +34-91-339-3608 >> Ericsson Spain > > _______________________________________________ > Simple mailing list > Simple@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple > From stpeter@stpeter.im Wed Mar 7 08:51:45 2012 Return-Path: <stpeter@stpeter.im> X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF1DF21F8743 for <simple@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 08:51:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.692 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.692 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.093, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7q3x2+oJrsVV for <simple@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 08:51:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1967D21F8741 for <simple@ietf.org>; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 08:51:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from squire.local (unknown [72.163.0.129]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 839F94005B; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 10:03:44 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4F57921F.6030208@stpeter.im> Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 09:51:43 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu> References: <20120305220012.23949.48147.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4F553844.3020207@stpeter.im> <866E8F3E-508F-4868-82AD-1636B72B3AA9@nostrum.com> <4F553BAA.3000803@stpeter.im> <33AC0540-009B-4C6B-B6E9-0089ABFA8262@nostrum.com> <4F553D5C.4090608@stpeter.im> <4F573FD6.6020101@ericsson.com> <A4704FBA-5813-4230-AE65-8BA38AE7437A@nostrum.com> <4F5790F0.7090002@alum.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <4F5790F0.7090002@alum.mit.edu> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.5 OpenPGP: url=https://stpeter.im/stpeter.asc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: simple@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Simple] I-D Action: draft-saintandre-precis-nickname-00.txt X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions <simple.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/simple>, <mailto:simple-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/simple> List-Post: <mailto:simple@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:simple-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple>, <mailto:simple-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 16:51:46 -0000 On 3/7/12 9:46 AM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: > On 3/7/12 9:36 AM, Ben Campbell wrote: >> (as individual) >> >> I concur, although I might suggest a non-normative sentence or two >> explaining why we think that the simple-chat usage of nicknames fits >> that draft, and explicitly punting on confusable characters. That's >> all covered in Peter's draft, but it wouldn't hurt to repeat it here. >> If it takes more than two sentences, it's probably too much. > > I agree. But note that this will be a normative dependency, and so will > stall the progression of this draft until that one progresses. Yes, that's unfortunate. However, a number of folks want to get the PRECIS work done (e.g., the XMPP WG would like to finish 6122bis), so with enough attention I think it can be completed fairly quickly. It might help for folks here to review the PRECIS specs and provide some "newbie" reviews for sanity... http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-precis-problem-statement-04 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-precis-framework-01 Thanks! Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ From ben@nostrum.com Wed Mar 7 09:03:13 2012 Return-Path: <ben@nostrum.com> X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D8AA21E80A2 for <simple@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 09:03:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.538 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.538 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.062, BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TPmrxnJAPoGj for <simple@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 09:03:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (nostrum-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:267::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B74D21E801B for <simple@ietf.org>; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 09:03:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from frankenstein.test.estacado.net (vicuna-alt.estacado.net [75.53.54.121]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q27H38Ss062264 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Mar 2012 11:03:09 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <4F5790F0.7090002@alum.mit.edu> Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 11:03:11 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <BE83B798-78B8-41AF-AAFD-24A7F6853672@nostrum.com> References: <20120305220012.23949.48147.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4F553844.3020207@stpeter.im> <866E8F3E-508F-4868-82AD-1636B72B3AA9@nostrum.com> <4F553BAA.3000803@stpeter.im> <33AC0540-009B-4C6B-B6E9-0089ABFA8262@nostrum.com> <4F553D5C.4090608@stpeter.im> <4F573FD6.6020101@ericsson.com> <A4704FBA-5813-4230-AE65-8BA38AE7437A@nostrum.com> <4F5790F0.7090002@alum.mit.edu> To: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 75.53.54.121 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) Cc: simple@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Simple] I-D Action: draft-saintandre-precis-nickname-00.txt X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions <simple.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/simple>, <mailto:simple-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/simple> List-Post: <mailto:simple@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:simple-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple>, <mailto:simple-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 17:03:13 -0000 On Mar 7, 2012, at 10:46 AM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: > On 3/7/12 9:36 AM, Ben Campbell wrote: >> (as individual) >>=20 >> I concur, although I might suggest a non-normative sentence or two = explaining why we think that the simple-chat usage of nicknames fits = that draft, and explicitly punting on confusable characters. That's all = covered in Peter's draft, but it wouldn't hurt to repeat it here. If it = takes more than two sentences, it's probably too much. >=20 > I agree. But note that this will be a normative dependency, and so = will stall the progression of this draft until that one progresses. >=20 I think that's true of any path forward at this point. It would probably = take longer to roll our own than to wait for PRECIS. I think that work = is stable enough that we can probably "finish" the chat draft, and have = it sit in the RFC editor queue until the dependencies clear. Thanks! Ben.= From ag@ag-projects.com Wed Mar 7 11:51:52 2012 Return-Path: <ag@ag-projects.com> X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD9E511E808A for <simple@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 11:51:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tsiTt5GGZAwJ for <simple@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 11:51:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sipthor.net (node06.dns-hosting.info [85.17.186.6]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 036E311E8072 for <simple@ietf.org>; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 11:51:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.sipthor.net (Postfix, from userid 5001) id 016E7B01B7; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 20:51:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from imac3.fritz.box (095-097-050-027.static.chello.nl [95.97.50.27]) by mail.sipthor.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3FB8DB019A; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 20:51:49 +0100 (CET) From: Adrian Georgescu <ag@ag-projects.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 20:51:48 +0100 Message-Id: <968B6A99-6ACE-4309-8B7C-308D6642C24B@ag-projects.com> To: Simple WG <simple@ietf.org>, sip-implementors@lists.cs.columbia.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) Subject: [Simple] SIP SIMPLE / XMPP interoperability X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions <simple.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/simple>, <mailto:simple-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/simple> List-Post: <mailto:simple@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:simple-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple>, <mailto:simple-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 19:51:53 -0000 Hello, There is ongoing work in the open source domain for properly bridging = the two protocols together. If you want to get involved or just watch the progress you can follow = the 'SIP beyond VoIP' mailing list http://lists.ag-projects.com/mailman/listinfo/sipbeyondvoip Regards, Adrian= From suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com Wed Mar 7 20:56:00 2012 Return-Path: <suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com> X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B3AB21E803E for <simple@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 20:56:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.234 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.234 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.365, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pBqbDvovF9jZ for <simple@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 20:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from imr3.ericy.com (imr3.ericy.com [198.24.6.13]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C93BC21E8018 for <simple@ietf.org>; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 20:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from eusaamw0711.eamcs.ericsson.se ([147.117.20.178]) by imr3.ericy.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q284trbG008168 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:55:56 -0600 Received: from [164.48.125.14] (147.117.20.214) by smtps-am.internal.ericsson.com (147.117.20.178) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.213.0; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 23:55:52 -0500 Message-ID: <4F583BD2.5060403@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 23:55:46 -0500 From: Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Miguel Garcia A <miguel.a.garcia@ericsson.com> References: <20120302073950.10645.39037.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4F507BD3.50300@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <4F507BD3.50300@ericsson.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 21:25:27 -0800 Cc: "simple@ietf.org" <simple@ietf.org>, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca> Subject: Re: [Simple] I-D Action: draft-ietf-simple-chat-14.txt X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions <simple.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/simple>, <mailto:simple-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/simple> List-Post: <mailto:simple@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:simple-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple>, <mailto:simple-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 04:56:00 -0000 Hi Miguel, Your changes look good to me. Thanks for taking care of this. Cheers Suresh On 03/02/2012 02:50 AM, Miguel Garcia A wrote: > I have just submitted a new version of the SIMPLE chat room draft. This > one does not yet consider the internationalization and normalization of > nicknames, which is scheduled for version -15. > > This version -14 addresses comments by Cullen, Suresh, Christer, and > Saul. Please guys, verify that your changes are implemented according to > your needs, and if you are not totally satisfied, you can still complain > and we will fix it in version -15. > > Diff with the previous version: > > http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-simple-chat-14 > > /Miguel > > On 02/03/2012 8:39, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions Working Group of the IETF. >> >> Title : Multi-party Chat Using the Message Session Relay Protocol (MSRP) >> Author(s) : Aki Niemi >> Miguel A. Garcia-Martin >> Geir A. Sandbakken >> Filename : draft-ietf-simple-chat-14.txt >> Pages : 37 >> Date : 2012-03-01 >> >> The Message Session Relay Protocol (MSRP) defines a mechanism for >> sending instant messages within a peer-to-peer session, negotiated >> using the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) and the Session >> Description Protocol (SDP). This document defines the necessary >> tools for establishing multi-party chat sessions, or chat rooms, >> using MSRP. >> >> >> A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-simple-chat-14.txt >> >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >> >> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-simple-chat-14.txt >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Simple mailing list >> Simple@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple >> > From stpeter@stpeter.im Mon Mar 19 09:54:45 2012 Return-Path: <stpeter@stpeter.im> X-Original-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: simple@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E6F121F887D for <simple@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 19 Mar 2012 09:54:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.695 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.695 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.096, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2OU5X96vDhGJ for <simple@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 19 Mar 2012 09:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFB9B21F87C9 for <simple@ietf.org>; Mon, 19 Mar 2012 09:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-64-101-72-185.cisco.com (unknown [64.101.72.185]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7598D40058 for <simple@ietf.org>; Mon, 19 Mar 2012 11:07:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <4F6764D2.3090409@stpeter.im> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 10:54:42 -0600 From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Simple WG <simple@ietf.org> References: <20120319195126.c4bea7d6.yoshiro.yoneya@jprs.co.jp> In-Reply-To: <20120319195126.c4bea7d6.yoshiro.yoneya@jprs.co.jp> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4 OpenPGP: url=https://stpeter.im/stpeter.asc X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <20120319195126.c4bea7d6.yoshiro.yoneya@jprs.co.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Simple] Fwd: [precis] IETF83 Paris draft agenda X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions <simple.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/simple>, <mailto:simple-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/simple> List-Post: <mailto:simple@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:simple-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple>, <mailto:simple-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 16:54:45 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 FYI, I will talk about the internationalization aspects of nickname handling in the PRECIS session at IETF 83. - -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [precis] IETF83 Paris draft agenda Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 19:51:26 +0900 From: Yoshiro YONEYA <yoshiro.yoneya@jprs.co.jp> To: precis@ietf.org Dear all, Sorry for the delayed notification. Following is draft agenda for IETF 83 Paris. Please sned comments/additions/changes to the chairs. 1. Administrativia 2. Document updates / Discussion 2.1 WG I-Ds (1) Problem-statement https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-precis-problem-statement/ (2) Framework https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-precis-framework/ 2.2 Individual Documents (1) Mapping characters for PRECIS classes https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-yoneya-precis-mappings/ (2) Username and Password Preparation Algorithms https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-melnikov-precis-saslprepbis/ (3) Preparation and Comparison of Nicknames https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-saintandre-precis-nickname/ 3. Next steps Marc & Yoneya, co-chairs - -- Yoshiro YONEYA <yoshiro.yoneya@jprs.co.jp> _______________________________________________ precis mailing list precis@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/precis -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk9nZNIACgkQNL8k5A2w/vwlrwCg5JfocyLyDvFenEQnIi/3jmPt 4r4AoMFfNRKNQwSpiNLkw9w7/Tx7vyHM =ZFQr -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----