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From: "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>
To: Brian Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
CC: "gen-art@ietf.org" <gen-art@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases.all@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Genart last call review of draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-08
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Date: Mon, 1 May 2017 19:27:39 +0000
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To: "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>
References: <149360420729.9840.1135726446843394242@ietfa.amsl.com> <52CBC7CD-A790-4470-ADBB-D424E9F219BC@cisco.com>
Cc: "gen-art@ietf.org" <gen-art@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases.all@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 08:02:03 +1200
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Subject: Re: [spring] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-08
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Stefano,

I won't argue further about the general issues, they are really
between you and the ADs. About this:

=2E..
>> Minor issue:
>> ------------
>>
>> The text of section 3 doesn't explain what requirements for SPRING it
>> generates. Really it just describes what any IGP will do anyway.
>=20
>=20
> not really. Igp=E2=80=99s compute Dijkstra-based shortest paths. Igp=E2=
=80=99s do not compute repair paths (whatever flavor: dual, parallel, dis=
joint, etc).

Yes, but that is a comment on DV or SPF algorithms: in principle an IGP c=
ould use other algorithms, should they be invented. Indeed, you refer to =
"Automated computation by the IGP."

>> How does that impact SPRING? If there is no impact, please say so!
>=20
>=20
> spring is about source routing and resiliency makes use of source routi=
ng. Resiliency makes use of source routing through SR.

Right, but you don't state any *requirements* for SPRING that result from=
 this case,
except the very general statement before section 3.1. Maybe that does tra=
nslate
into specific requirements, but I don't see how.

   Brian


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From nobody Tue May  2 07:43:22 2017
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking of the IETF.

        Title           : Resiliency use cases in SPRING networks
        Authors         : Clarence Filsfils
                          Stefano Previdi
                          Bruno Decraene
                          Rob Shakir
	Filename        : draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-09.txt
	Pages           : 11
	Date            : 2017-05-02

Abstract:
   This document identifies and describes the requirements for a set of
   use cases related to network resiliency on Segment Routing (SPRING)
   networks.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-09
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-09

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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking of the IETF.

        Title           : Segment Routing interworking with LDP
        Authors         : Clarence Filsfils
                          Stefano Previdi
                          Ahmed Bashandy
                          Bruno Decraene
                          Stephane Litkowski
	Filename        : draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-ldp-interop-07.txt
	Pages           : 20
	Date            : 2017-05-02

Abstract:
   A Segment Routing (SR) node steers a packet through a controlled set
   of instructions, called segments, by prepending the packet with an SR
   header.  A segment can represent any instruction, topological or
   service-based.  SR allows to enforce a flow through any topological
   path and service chain while maintaining per-flow state only at the
   ingress node to the SR domain.

   The Segment Routing architecture can be directly applied to the MPLS
   data plane with no change in the forwarding plane.  This drafts
   describes how Segment Routing operates in a network where LDP is
   deployed and in the case where SR-capable and non-SR-capable nodes
   coexist.



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Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-09.txt
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this version integrates the latest comments from GENART, OPSDIR and RTGDIR =
reviews.

s.


> On May 2, 2017, at 4:43 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct=
ories.
> This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking of t=
he IETF.
>=20
>        Title           : Resiliency use cases in SPRING networks
>        Authors         : Clarence Filsfils
>                          Stefano Previdi
>                          Bruno Decraene
>                          Rob Shakir
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-09.txt
> 	Pages           : 11
> 	Date            : 2017-05-02
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This document identifies and describes the requirements for a set of
>   use cases related to network resiliency on Segment Routing (SPRING)
>   networks.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases/
>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-09
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-ca=
ses-09
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-case=
s-09
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
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From: "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>
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this version integrates shepherd review comments.

Thanks.
s.


> On May 2, 2017, at 4:48 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct=
ories.
> This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking of t=
he IETF.
>=20
>        Title           : Segment Routing interworking with LDP
>        Authors         : Clarence Filsfils
>                          Stefano Previdi
>                          Ahmed Bashandy
>                          Bruno Decraene
>                          Stephane Litkowski
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-ldp-interop-07.txt
> 	Pages           : 20
> 	Date            : 2017-05-02
>=20
> Abstract:
>   A Segment Routing (SR) node steers a packet through a controlled set
>   of instructions, called segments, by prepending the packet with an SR
>   header.  A segment can represent any instruction, topological or
>   service-based.  SR allows to enforce a flow through any topological
>   path and service chain while maintaining per-flow state only at the
>   ingress node to the SR domain.
>=20
>   The Segment Routing architecture can be directly applied to the MPLS
>   data plane with no change in the forwarding plane.  This drafts
>   describes how Segment Routing operates in a network where LDP is
>   deployed and in the case where SR-capable and non-SR-capable nodes
>   coexist.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-ldp-in=
terop/
>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-ldp-interop=
-07
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-l=
dp-interop-07
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-ldp=
-interop-07
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>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
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From: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
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Reviewer: Stewart Bryant
Review result: Not Ready

I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area
Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
by the IESG for the IETF Chair.  Please treat these comments just
like any other last call comments.

For more information, please see the FAQ at

<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq>.

Document: draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases-??
Reviewer: Stewart Bryant
Review Date: 2017-05-02
IETF LC End Date: 2017-05-04
IESG Telechat date: Not scheduled for a telechat

Summary:

I have a number of concerns about this draft, which I detail below.

A significant part of the justification seems to evolve around the
inability of MPLS to function in
an IPv6 only network. This is something that the MPLS WG should
provide expert input on.

Major issues:
   In addition there are cases where the operators could have made
the
   design choice to disable IPv4, for ease of management and scale
   (return to single-stack) or due to an address constraint, for
example
   because they do not possess enough IPv4 addresses resources to
number
   all the endpoints and other network elements on which they desire
to
   run MPLS.

SB> But as I show below MPLS WG either has fixed this or is very
close
SB> to fixing this, so I don't see how you can justify designing a
SB> major modification to the IPv6 dataplane on the basis of the above

SB> statement.

===============

   In such scenario the support for MPLS operations on an IPv6-only
   network would be required.  However today's IPv6-only networks are
   not fully capable of supporting MPLS.  There is ongoing work in
the
   MPLS Working Group, described in [RFC7439] to identify gaps that
must
   be addressed in order to allow MPLS-related protocols and
   applications to be used with IPv6-only networks.  

SB> That draft was published two years ago. An RFC was published to
SB> address the LDP gap mid 2016. RFC7506 fixed the RAO in April
2015,
SB> MIBs are being replaced by YANG. I am not sure you need GMPLS,
SB> L2VPN or L3VPN in the application you cite.
SB>
SB> I think a more up to date evaluation of the ability of MPLS
SB> to run in an IPv6 network is needed.
SB>
SB> Additionally if you are talking MPLS-SR then the shortfall is 
SB> different still because you rely on the SR extensions to the IGPs
SB> and not the classic MPLS signalling protocols.

============

   2.  There is a strict lack of an MPLS dataplane in a portion of
the
       end to end path

SB> It is not the lack of MPLS in a portion of the network, since you
SB> can tunnel MPLS over IP. The constraint applies when you need
SB> take an MPLS action at node that does not have MPLS forwarding
logic.
SB> I wonder how common this is in practise given that I understand
that 
SB> other work in IPv6 SR is driving towards convincing people that
SB> the number of actual SR actions on a path is tiny.

   4.  There is a need to connect millions of addressable segment
       endpoints, thus high routing scalability is a requirement. 
IPv6
       addresses are inherently summarizable: a very large operator
       could scale by summarizing IPv6 subnets at various internal
       boundaries.  This is very simple and is a basic property of IP
       routing.  MPLS node segments are not summarizable.  To reach
the
       same scale, an operator would need to introduce additional
       complexity, such as mechanisms known with the industry term
       Seamless MPLS [I-D.ietf-mpls-seamless-mpls].

SB> As far as I can see that draft has died, indeed it died in 2014.
SB> Assuming it has not be re-incarnated in another name, this calls
SB> into question the validity of the use case.
SB>
SB> I think to compare apples with apples here, we need to take a
SB> look at specific examples to verify that the scaling concern
arises.
SB> As part of that we need to consider whether the intrinsic
hierarchy
SB> MPLS, and the availability of MPLS context labels addresses the
issue.

SB> As far as I can see that draft has died, indeed it died in 2014.
SB> Assuming it has not be re-incarnated in another name, this calls
SB> into question the validity of the use case.
SB>
SB> I think to compare apples with apples here, we need to take a
SB> look at specific examples to verify that the scaling concern
arises.
SB> As part of that we need to consider whether the intrinsic
hierarchy
SB> MPLS, and the availability of MPLS context labels addresses the
issue.

   In any environment with requirements such as those listed above,
an
   IPv6 data plane 

SB> No, an IPv6 dataplane extended to include source routing
capability
SB> ... You do not get this through an off the shelf IPv6 dataplane
SB> other than perhaps MPLS/IPv6.
SB> ... and we should not belittle the difficulty of doing the
proposed
SB> SRv6 extensions, not all h/w can easily do it, and a lot of h/w
can 
SB> only introduce a tiny number of segments.

   provides a powerful combination of capabilities for a
   network operator to realize benefits in explicit routing,
protection
   and restoration, high routing scalability, traffic engineering,
   service chaining, service differentiation and application
flexibility
   via programmability.

SB> There is a bit of an (unexplained) leap from the introduction of 
SB> IPv6 to the above set of use cases.

============

   The use cases described in the section do not constitute an
   exhaustive list of all the possible scenarios; this section only
   includes some of the most common envisioned deployment models for
   IPv6 Segment Routing.  In addition to the use cases described in
this
   document the spring architecture should be able to be applied to
all
   the use cases described in [RFC7855] for the spring MPLS data
plane,
   when an IPv6 data plane is present.

SB> The second sentence reduces to the need to make MPLS work in
SB> an IPv6 environment.

==========

   The ability to steer traffic to an appropriate egress or utilize a
   specific type of media (e.g., low-power, WIFI, wired, femto-cell,
   bluetooth, MOCA, HomePlug, etc.) within the home itself are
obvious
   cases which may be of interest to an application running within a
   home network.

SB> So the interesting thing here is that to set up a SR you normally
SB> need to know the topology so you can plan the path, but homenet
SB> chose a distance vector protocol, which is a protocol genre that 
SB> normally does not understand the topology.

========

   Information included in the spring header, whether imposed by the
   end-host itself, a customer edge router, or within the access
network
   of the ISP, may be of use at the far ends of the data
communication
   as well.  For example, an application running on an end-host with
   application-support in a data center can utilize the spring header
as
   a channel to include information that affects its treatment within
   the data center itself, allowing for application-level steering
and
   load-balancing without relying upon implicit application
   classification techniques at the data-center edge.  Further, as
more
   and more application traffic is encrypted, the ability to extract
   (and include in the spring header) just enough information to
enable
   the network and data center to load-balance and steer traffic
   appropriately becomes more and more important.

SB> However there is a trust issue with sharing information in this
way
SB> and it was a breach of trust that caused the source routing
feature 
SB> to be removed from IPv6 in the first place.
SB>
SB> For this to be a valid use case I think you need to address the 
SB> trust and security issues to explain why they are no longer
relevant
SB> or make it clear that they need to be addressed.

========

   The need to setup a source-based path, going through some specific
   middle/intermediate points in the network may be related to
different
   requirements:

SB> There needs to be some discussion on the trust model here and
SB> attack vectors associated with this proposal.

==========

   This document presents use cases to be considered by the spring
   architecture and potential IPv6 extensions.  As such, it does not
   introduce any security considerations.  However, there are a
number
   of security concerns with source routing at the IP layer
[RFC5095].
   It is expected that any solution that addresses these use cases to
   also address any security concerns.

SB> It is not clear that the introduction of this technology to these
SB> applications does not introduce a solutions agnostic increase in
SB> security risk.
SB> 

Minor issues:

   The objective of this document is to illustrate some use cases
that
   need to be taken into account by the Source Packet Routing in
   Networking (SPRING) architecture in the context of an IPv6
   environment.

SB> It is unclear whether it is feeding the SR architecture (which is
SB> currently in AD evaluation) or the SRv6 design.
SB>
SB> It seems a bit late to be progressing this if it is a requirement
SB> on the architecture.

================

   Source Packet Routing in Networking (SPRING) architecture
leverages
   the source routing paradigm.  An ingress node steers a packet
through
   a controlled set of instructions, called segments, by prepending
the
   packet with SPRING header.  

SB> That is what I think it should do, but that is not the design
direction
SB> of the current IPv6 proposal. The design of record modifies the 
SB> IPv6 header.

==========

   In today's networks, source routing is typically accomplished by
   encapsulating IP packets in MPLS LSPs that are signaled via
RSVP-TE.

SB> There is an interesting question as to whether RSVP-TE is a
SB> source routing paradygm or simply an explicit routing paradygm.
SB> Source routing is more commonly associated with a route imposed
SB> on a packet rather than the identify of a route being imposed on
SB> a packet.

   3.  There is a need or desire to remove routing state from any
node
       other than the source, such that the source is the only node
that
       knows and will know the path a packet will take, a priori

SB> That is a SR goal, not a goal specific to IPv6

==========

   A spring enabled home provides the ability to steer traffic into a
   specific path from end-hosts in the home, or from a customer edge
   router in the home.  

SB> Where does Babel fit into this? Isn't the purpose of Babel
SB> to do this in a standard IPv6 dataplane?

=========

   Some Data Center operators are transitioning their Data Center
   infrastructure from IPv4 to native IPv6 only, in order to cope
with
   IPv4 address depletion and to achieve larger scale.  In such
   environment, source routing (through Segment Routing IPv6) can be
   used to steer traffic across specific paths through the network. 

SB> I do not see how the first sentence leads to the second.

==========

   In an environment, where each single cache system can be uniquely
   identified by its own IPv6 address, a list containing a sequence
of
   the caches in a hierarchy can be built.  At each node (cache) in
the
   list, the presence of the requested content if checked.  If the
   requested content is found at the cache (cache hits scenario) the
   sequence ends, even if there are more nodes in the list; otherwise
   next element in the list (next node/cache) is examined.

SB> This needs some discussion on the alternative approaches:
SB> for example service function chaining and an ICN overlay.

Nits/editorial comments: 
   Therefore, there are scenarios where it may be possible to run
IPv6
   on top of MPLS, and as such, the MPLS Segment Routing architecture

SB> I think that is a design rather than an architecture.

=============

   This is an another
   example of scenario where a solution relying on IPv6 without
   requiring the use of MPLS could represent a valid option to solve
the
   problem and meet operators' requirements.

SB> "could" is not a particularly strong justification.


From nobody Wed May  3 07:39:42 2017
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From: Carlos Martinez <carlosm3011@gmail.com>
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Subject: [spring] Opsdir last call review of draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases-10
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Reviewer: Carlos Martinez
Review result: Has Issues

I have reviewed this document as part of the Operational
directorate's
ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the
IESG.
These comments were written with the intent of improving the
operational
aspects of the IETF drafts. Comments that are not addressed in last
call
may be included in AD reviews during the IESG review. Document
editors
and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any other last
call
comments.

Review result: Ready with issues

First of all I would like to thank the authors for their hard work
and
the insight they offer in this document. I'm a sort of outsider to
the
source routing scene but I have been following it for some time.

After reading the document I am left with the impression that the
case
for the IPv6 dataplane is being pushed just too hard. I´m not saying
that there is no case but that the document tries just too hard at
it,
making it unnecessarily hard to read.

The document heavily references active drafts that have yet to become
RFCs, making it hard for me to give a full "Ready" status

I'm a bit concerned about the use of the word "obvious" as it is used
in
Section 2.1. What is obvious today may not be in one, two or three
years
from now.

Finally, and this is just an IMHO, the cases are presented from a "33
thousand feet view". I feel this doesn´t help someone just coming on
board the topic and I believe the document would highly benefit from
a
more detailed, more specific and developed use case.

Thanks again!

-Carlos


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From: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
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Hi Authors,


When there are multiple anycast IP addresses assigned to different nodes an=
d one or more nodes
do not advertise a Prefix SID for that anycast address but other nodes adve=
rtise a prefix-sid, there is a possibility
of different implementations behaving differently with respect to programmi=
ng the labelled routes.

 This scenario should be considered as a prefix conflict and the behavior s=
hould be addressed in the draft.
I suggest to update section 3.2.1 with the relevant text to describe the be=
havior.


Rgds
Shraddha


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<font face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;">
<div>Hi Authors,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>When there are multiple anycast IP addresses assigned to different nod=
es and one or more nodes</div>
<div>do not advertise a Prefix SID for that anycast address but other nodes=
 advertise a prefix-sid, there is a possibility</div>
<div>of different implementations behaving differently with respect to prog=
ramming the labelled routes.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div> This scenario should be considered as a prefix conflict and the behav=
ior should be addressed in the draft.</div>
<div>I suggest to update section 3.2.1 with the relevant text to describe t=
he behavior.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Rgds</div>
<div>Shraddha</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</span></font>
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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>, "draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org>
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Shraddha -

There is a misunderstanding on your part. It would be good if you read Sect=
ion 3.3.8.  Guaranteeing Database Consistency again.

In short, it does not matter whether you do or do not advertise a prefix SI=
D for a prefix which you own. What matters is that all routers populate the=
 mapping entry database consistent w Section 3.3.8 and that each router app=
lies the conflict resolution rules in a consistent manner. Then all routers=
 will be using the same prefix/SID pair in forwarding.

   Les


From: Shraddha Hegde [mailto:shraddha@juniper.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 9:58 AM
To: draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org
Cc: spring@ietf.org
Subject: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Hi Authors,


When there are multiple anycast IP addresses assigned to different nodes an=
d one or more nodes
do not advertise a Prefix SID for that anycast address but other nodes adve=
rtise a prefix-sid, there is a possibility
of different implementations behaving differently with respect to programmi=
ng the labelled routes.

This scenario should be considered as a prefix conflict and the behavior sh=
ould be addressed in the draft.
I suggest to update section 3.2.1 with the relevant text to describe the be=
havior.


Rgds
Shraddha


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libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Shraddha &#8211;<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There is a misunderstandi=
ng on your part. It would be good if you read Section 3.3.8.&nbsp; Guarante=
eing Database Consistency again.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In short, it does not mat=
ter whether you do or do not advertise a prefix SID for a prefix which you =
own. What matters is that all routers populate the mapping
 entry database consistent w Section 3.3.8 and that each router applies the=
 conflict resolution rules in a consistent manner. Then all routers will be=
 using the same prefix/SID pair in forwarding.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp; Les<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Shraddha=
 Hegde [mailto:shraddha@juniper.net]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 03, 2017 9:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> spring@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi Authors,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">When there are multiple anycast IP addr=
esses assigned to different nodes and one or more nodes<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">do not advertise a Prefix SID for that =
anycast address but other nodes advertise a prefix-sid, there is a possibil=
ity<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">of different implementations behaving d=
ifferently with respect to programming the labelled routes.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">This scenario should be considered as a=
 prefix conflict and the behavior should be addressed in the draft.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I suggest to update section 3.2.1 with =
the relevant text to describe the behavior.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution
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Subject: Re: [spring] Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution
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Les,

>From what you describe in section 3.3.8, all the SIDs attached to prefixes =
are fed into the database.
The example I am talking about,

1.prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node A with no SID
2.Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node B with SID 10
3. Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node C with SID 10

The advertisements 2 and 3 are fed into the mapping database and 1 isn't.

The conflict resolution does not detect any conflict with the above adverti=
sements and
For prefix 1.1.1.1 /SID 10 is chosen.
All this is fine but the problem is in programming the forwarding plane.

Lets say for a certain node E in the network node A is the nexthop for 1.1.=
1.1.
How would node E program its forwarding plane?

Node E should recognize the conflict between node A, Node B and C and progr=
am the
SID 10 with a pop and forward instead of looking into the P and E flags of =
the SID 10?

This is good enough detail, that should be explained in the draft instead o=
f leaving it to the
Imagination of implementers.

Rgds
Shraddha




From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) [mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 3, 2017 11:47 PM
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>; draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resol=
ution@ietf.org
Cc: spring@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Shraddha -

There is a misunderstanding on your part. It would be good if you read Sect=
ion 3.3.8.  Guaranteeing Database Consistency again.

In short, it does not matter whether you do or do not advertise a prefix SI=
D for a prefix which you own. What matters is that all routers populate the=
 mapping entry database consistent w Section 3.3.8 and that each router app=
lies the conflict resolution rules in a consistent manner. Then all routers=
 will be using the same prefix/SID pair in forwarding.

   Les


From: Shraddha Hegde [mailto:shraddha@juniper.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 9:58 AM
To: draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-spring=
-conflict-resolution@ietf.org>
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Hi Authors,


When there are multiple anycast IP addresses assigned to different nodes an=
d one or more nodes
do not advertise a Prefix SID for that anycast address but other nodes adve=
rtise a prefix-sid, there is a possibility
of different implementations behaving differently with respect to programmi=
ng the labelled routes.

This scenario should be considered as a prefix conflict and the behavior sh=
ould be addressed in the draft.
I suggest to update section 3.2.1 with the relevant text to describe the be=
havior.


Rgds
Shraddha


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Les,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">From what you describe in section 3.3=
.8, all the SIDs attached to prefixes are fed into the database.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The example I am talking about,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">1.prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node=
 A with no SID<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">2.Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node=
 B with SID 10<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">3. Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from nod=
e C with SID 10<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The advertisements 2 and 3 are fed in=
to the mapping database and 1 isn&#8217;t.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The conflict resolution does not dete=
ct any conflict with the above advertisements and<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">For prefix 1.1.1.1 /SID 10 is chosen.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">All this is fine but the problem is i=
n programming the forwarding plane.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Lets say for a certain node E in the =
network node A is the nexthop for 1.1.1.1.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">How would node E program its forwardi=
ng plane?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Node E should recognize the conflict =
between node A, Node B and C and program the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">SID 10 with a pop and forward instead=
 of looking into the P and E flags of the SID 10?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">This is good enough detail, that shou=
ld be explained in the draft instead of leaving it to the<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Imagination of implementers.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) [mailt=
o:ginsberg@cisco.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 3, 2017 11:47 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Shraddha Hegde &lt;shraddha@juniper.net&gt;; draft-ietf-spring-c=
onflict-resolution@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> spring@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Shraddha &#8211;<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">There is a misunderstanding on your p=
art. It would be good if you read Section 3.3.8.&nbsp; Guaranteeing Databas=
e Consistency again.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">In short, it does not matter whether =
you do or do not advertise a prefix SID for a prefix which you own. What ma=
tters is that all routers populate the mapping
 entry database consistent w Section 3.3.8 and that each router applies the=
 conflict resolution rules in a consistent manner. Then all routers will be=
 using the same prefix/SID pair in forwarding.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp; Les<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> Shraddha Hegde [<a href=3D"mailt=
o:shraddha@juniper.net">mailto:shraddha@juniper.net</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 03, 2017 9:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org=
">draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Hi Authors,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">When there are multiple anycast IP addresses assign=
ed to different nodes and one or more nodes<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">do not advertise a Prefix SID for that anycast addr=
ess but other nodes advertise a prefix-sid, there is a possibility<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">of different implementations behaving differently w=
ith respect to programming the labelled routes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">This scenario should be considered as a prefix conf=
lict and the behavior should be addressed in the draft.<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">I suggest to update section 3.2.1 with the relevant=
 text to describe the behavior.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>
To: Stephane Litkowski <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
CC: "rtg-ads@ietf.org" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases.all@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: RtgDir review: draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-08
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Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 12:59:06 +0000
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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>, "draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution
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Shraddha -

First, there is no SID conflict here. There is therefore nothing for the co=
nflict resolution draft to discuss.

Let's look at your scenario more detail. To do so let's use the following s=
imple topology:


       --------------A
  /
G-----------------B
  \
     ----------------C

Using your example w addition of P/E flag settings in prefix-sid advertisem=
ent (using IS-IS naming convention).
For simplicity assume all nodes have the default SRGB (16000 - 23999).

1.prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node A with no SID
2.Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node B with SID 10  P flag =3D 0 E flag =
=3D 0
3. Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node C with SID 10 P flag =3D 1  E flag =
=3D 0

Using procedures defined in draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution all nodes=
 in the network will use SID 10 when forwarding traffic to 1.1.1.1. The que=
stion is what should the penultimate next hop router do when forwarding a p=
acket to each of the owning nodes?

When G forwards the packet to B, PHP is indicated, so G will POP.
When G forwards the packet to C, UHP is indicated and E flag is 0, so G wil=
l send the packet with outgoing label 16010.

When G forwards the packet to A, because A has not advertised the prefix-SI=
D (but is SR capable) we do not know whether it wants PHP or not - so we ha=
ve to make an assumption.
Default MPLS behavior is to assume PHP.
If A does not want PHP then it would have to advertise the prefix SID so it=
 could specify desired behavior using P/E flags.

Note that this same situation can occur if the mapping server is used as a =
global provisioning tool. In such a case no prefix-SIDs need be advertised =
in prefix reachability advertisements - all SIDs are advertised by SRMS adv=
ertisements which do not include P/E flags.

Historically,  MPLS implementations have chosen a default behavior (equival=
ent to P and E flags =3D 0). Some implementations provide knobs to override=
 this behavior.

If your concern is that there is not an explicit definition of default PHP/=
Explicit NULL behavior, then I think this needs to be directed at the MPLS =
WG. I do not claim to be an MPLS expert, but I have found these references:

RFC 3036 Section 6

"-  Section 2.16 of the MPLS architecture [RFC3031] requires that
         the initial label distribution protocol negotiation between
         peer LSRs enable each LSR to determine whether its peer is
         capable of popping the label stack.  This version of LDP
         assumes that LSRs support label popping for all link types
         except ATM and Frame Relay.  A future version may specify means
         to make this determination part of the session initiation
         negotiation."

   Les

From: Shraddha Hegde [mailto:shraddha@juniper.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 10:16 PM
To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg); draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org
Cc: spring@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Les,

>From what you describe in section 3.3.8, all the SIDs attached to prefixes =
are fed into the database.
The example I am talking about,

1.prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node A with no SID
2.Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node B with SID 10
3. Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node C with SID 10

The advertisements 2 and 3 are fed into the mapping database and 1 isn't.

The conflict resolution does not detect any conflict with the above adverti=
sements and
For prefix 1.1.1.1 /SID 10 is chosen.
All this is fine but the problem is in programming the forwarding plane.

Lets say for a certain node E in the network node A is the nexthop for 1.1.=
1.1.
How would node E program its forwarding plane?

Node E should recognize the conflict between node A, Node B and C and progr=
am the
SID 10 with a pop and forward instead of looking into the P and E flags of =
the SID 10?

This is good enough detail, that should be explained in the draft instead o=
f leaving it to the
Imagination of implementers.

Rgds
Shraddha




From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) [mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 3, 2017 11:47 PM
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net<mailto:shraddha@juniper.net>>; dra=
ft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-spring-confli=
ct-resolution@ietf.org>
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Shraddha -

There is a misunderstanding on your part. It would be good if you read Sect=
ion 3.3.8.  Guaranteeing Database Consistency again.

In short, it does not matter whether you do or do not advertise a prefix SI=
D for a prefix which you own. What matters is that all routers populate the=
 mapping entry database consistent w Section 3.3.8 and that each router app=
lies the conflict resolution rules in a consistent manner. Then all routers=
 will be using the same prefix/SID pair in forwarding.

   Les


From: Shraddha Hegde [mailto:shraddha@juniper.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 9:58 AM
To: draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-spring=
-conflict-resolution@ietf.org>
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Hi Authors,


When there are multiple anycast IP addresses assigned to different nodes an=
d one or more nodes
do not advertise a Prefix SID for that anycast address but other nodes adve=
rtise a prefix-sid, there is a possibility
of different implementations behaving differently with respect to programmi=
ng the labelled routes.

This scenario should be considered as a prefix conflict and the behavior sh=
ould be addressed in the draft.
I suggest to update section 3.2.1 with the relevant text to describe the be=
havior.


Rgds
Shraddha


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Shraddha &#8211;<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">First, there is no SID co=
nflict here. There is therefore nothing for the conflict resolution draft t=
o discuss.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Let&#8217;s look at your =
scenario more detail. To do so let&#8217;s use the following simple topolog=
y:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; --------------A<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;/<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">G-----------------B<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp; \<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
----------------C<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Using your example w addi=
tion of P/E flag settings in prefix-sid advertisement (using IS-IS naming c=
onvention).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">For simplicity assume all=
 nodes have the default SRGB (16000 &#8211; 23999).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">1.prefix 1.1.1.1 advertis=
ed from node A with no SID<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">2.Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertis=
ed from node B with SID 10&nbsp; P flag =3D 0 E flag =3D 0
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">3. Prefix 1.1.1.1 adverti=
sed from node C with SID 10 P flag =3D 1 &nbsp;E flag =3D 0<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Using procedures defined =
in draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution all nodes in the network will use =
SID 10 when forwarding traffic to 1.1.1.1. The question
 is what should the penultimate next hop router do when forwarding a packet=
 to each of the owning nodes?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">When G forwards the packe=
t to B, PHP is indicated, so G will POP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">When G forwards the packe=
t to C, UHP is indicated and E flag is 0, so G will send the packet with ou=
tgoing label 16010.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">When G forwards the packe=
t to A, because A has not advertised the prefix-SID (but is SR capable) we =
do not know whether it wants PHP or not &#8211; so we have to
 make an assumption.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Default MPLS behavior is =
to assume PHP.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If A does not want PHP th=
en it would have to advertise the prefix SID so it could specify desired be=
havior using P/E flags.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Note that this same situa=
tion can occur if the mapping server is used as a global provisioning tool.=
 In such a case no prefix-SIDs need be advertised in prefix
 reachability advertisements &#8211; all SIDs are advertised by SRMS advert=
isements which do not include P/E flags.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Historically, &nbsp;MPLS =
implementations have chosen a default behavior (equivalent to P and E flags=
 =3D 0). Some implementations provide knobs to override this behavior.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If your concern is that t=
here is not an explicit definition of default PHP/Explicit NULL behavior, t=
hen I think this needs to be directed at the MPLS WG. I
 do not claim to be an MPLS expert, but I have found these references:<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">RFC 3036 Section 6<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&#8220;-&nbsp; Section 2.=
16 of the MPLS architecture [RFC3031] requires that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the initial label distribution protocol negotiation=
 between<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; peer LSRs enable each LSR to determine whether its =
peer is<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; capable of popping the label stack.&nbsp; This vers=
ion of LDP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; assumes that LSRs support label popping for all lin=
k types<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; except ATM and Frame Relay.&nbsp; A future version =
may specify means<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to make this determination part of the session init=
iation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; negotiation.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp; Les<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Shraddha=
 Hegde [mailto:shraddha@juniper.net]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 03, 2017 10:16 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Les Ginsberg (ginsberg); draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@i=
etf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> spring@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Les,<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">From what you describe in=
 section 3.3.8, all the SIDs attached to prefixes are fed into the database=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The example I am talking =
about,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">1.prefix 1.1.1.1 advertis=
ed from node A with no SID<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">2.Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertis=
ed from node B with SID 10<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">3. Prefix 1.1.1.1 adverti=
sed from node C with SID 10<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The advertisements 2 and =
3 are fed into the mapping database and 1 isn&#8217;t.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The conflict resolution d=
oes not detect any conflict with the above advertisements and<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">For prefix 1.1.1.1 /SID 1=
0 is chosen.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">All this is fine but the =
problem is in programming the forwarding plane.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Lets say for a certain no=
de E in the network node A is the nexthop for 1.1.1.1.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">How would node E program =
its forwarding plane?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Node E should recognize t=
he conflict between node A, Node B and C and program the<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">SID 10 with a pop and for=
ward instead of looking into the P and E flags of the SID 10?<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This is good enough detai=
l, that should be explained in the draft instead of leaving it to the<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Imagination of implemente=
rs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-=
size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Les Gi=
nsberg (ginsberg) [<a href=3D"mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com">mailto:ginsberg@ci=
sco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 3, 2017 11:47 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Shraddha Hegde &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net">shrad=
dha@juniper.net</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org">draft-iet=
f-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Shraddha &#8211;<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There is a misunderstandi=
ng on your part. It would be good if you read Section 3.3.8.&nbsp; Guarante=
eing Database Consistency again.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In short, it does not mat=
ter whether you do or do not advertise a prefix SID for a prefix which you =
own. What matters is that all routers populate the mapping
 entry database consistent w Section 3.3.8 and that each router applies the=
 conflict resolution rules in a consistent manner. Then all routers will be=
 using the same prefix/SID pair in forwarding.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp; Les<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Shraddha=
 Hegde [<a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net">mailto:shraddha@juniper.net=
</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 03, 2017 9:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org=
">draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi Authors,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">When there are multiple anycast IP addr=
esses assigned to different nodes and one or more nodes<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">do not advertise a Prefix SID for that =
anycast address but other nodes advertise a prefix-sid, there is a possibil=
ity<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">of different implementations behaving d=
ifferently with respect to programming the labelled routes.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">This scenario should be considered as a=
 prefix conflict and the behavior should be addressed in the draft.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I suggest to update section 3.2.1 with =
the relevant text to describe the behavior.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_f4aa2dd9ce2c4df18f29471c57844f5fXCHALN001ciscocom_--


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From: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution
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Les,

The issues we are discussing here are specific to Segment Routing and SPRIN=
G is the right
WG to address this. The problem here is not about standardizing what is the=
 default
PHP behavior, it is about the scenarios when this default behavior assumpti=
on need to be applied.

The problem doesn't get solved by applying default PHP behavior in all case=
s.
Assume 1.1.1.1 in the example below is a redistributed prefix from another =
ISIS Level. In that
case  the pop and forward will cause the service labels to get exposed at A=
 which
would cause black-holing or misrouting.

These are issues caused by config errors and IMO conflict resolution draft =
is the right place
to describe these cases and the solutions so that all vendors have consiste=
nt behaviours.


Rgds
Shraddha

From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) [mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 12:05 AM
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>; draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resol=
ution@ietf.org
Cc: spring@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Shraddha -

First, there is no SID conflict here. There is therefore nothing for the co=
nflict resolution draft to discuss.

Let's look at your scenario more detail. To do so let's use the following s=
imple topology:


       --------------A
  /
G-----------------B
  \
     ----------------C

Using your example w addition of P/E flag settings in prefix-sid advertisem=
ent (using IS-IS naming convention).
For simplicity assume all nodes have the default SRGB (16000 - 23999).

1.prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node A with no SID
2.Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node B with SID 10  P flag =3D 0 E flag =
=3D 0
3. Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node C with SID 10 P flag =3D 1  E flag =
=3D 0

Using procedures defined in draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution all nodes=
 in the network will use SID 10 when forwarding traffic to 1.1.1.1. The que=
stion is what should the penultimate next hop router do when forwarding a p=
acket to each of the owning nodes?

When G forwards the packet to B, PHP is indicated, so G will POP.
When G forwards the packet to C, UHP is indicated and E flag is 0, so G wil=
l send the packet with outgoing label 16010.

When G forwards the packet to A, because A has not advertised the prefix-SI=
D (but is SR capable) we do not know whether it wants PHP or not - so we ha=
ve to make an assumption.
Default MPLS behavior is to assume PHP.
If A does not want PHP then it would have to advertise the prefix SID so it=
 could specify desired behavior using P/E flags.

Note that this same situation can occur if the mapping server is used as a =
global provisioning tool. In such a case no prefix-SIDs need be advertised =
in prefix reachability advertisements - all SIDs are advertised by SRMS adv=
ertisements which do not include P/E flags.

Historically,  MPLS implementations have chosen a default behavior (equival=
ent to P and E flags =3D 0). Some implementations provide knobs to override=
 this behavior.

If your concern is that there is not an explicit definition of default PHP/=
Explicit NULL behavior, then I think this needs to be directed at the MPLS =
WG. I do not claim to be an MPLS expert, but I have found these references:

RFC 3036 Section 6

"-  Section 2.16 of the MPLS architecture [RFC3031] requires that
         the initial label distribution protocol negotiation between
         peer LSRs enable each LSR to determine whether its peer is
         capable of popping the label stack.  This version of LDP
         assumes that LSRs support label popping for all link types
         except ATM and Frame Relay.  A future version may specify means
         to make this determination part of the session initiation
         negotiation."

   Les

From: Shraddha Hegde [mailto:shraddha@juniper.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 10:16 PM
To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg); draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org=
<mailto:draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org>
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Les,

>From what you describe in section 3.3.8, all the SIDs attached to prefixes =
are fed into the database.
The example I am talking about,

1.prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node A with no SID
2.Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node B with SID 10
3. Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node C with SID 10

The advertisements 2 and 3 are fed into the mapping database and 1 isn't.

The conflict resolution does not detect any conflict with the above adverti=
sements and
For prefix 1.1.1.1 /SID 10 is chosen.
All this is fine but the problem is in programming the forwarding plane.

Lets say for a certain node E in the network node A is the nexthop for 1.1.=
1.1.
How would node E program its forwarding plane?

Node E should recognize the conflict between node A, Node B and C and progr=
am the
SID 10 with a pop and forward instead of looking into the P and E flags of =
the SID 10?

This is good enough detail, that should be explained in the draft instead o=
f leaving it to the
Imagination of implementers.

Rgds
Shraddha




From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) [mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 3, 2017 11:47 PM
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net<mailto:shraddha@juniper.net>>; dra=
ft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-spring-confli=
ct-resolution@ietf.org>
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Shraddha -

There is a misunderstanding on your part. It would be good if you read Sect=
ion 3.3.8.  Guaranteeing Database Consistency again.

In short, it does not matter whether you do or do not advertise a prefix SI=
D for a prefix which you own. What matters is that all routers populate the=
 mapping entry database consistent w Section 3.3.8 and that each router app=
lies the conflict resolution rules in a consistent manner. Then all routers=
 will be using the same prefix/SID pair in forwarding.

   Les


From: Shraddha Hegde [mailto:shraddha@juniper.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 9:58 AM
To: draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-spring=
-conflict-resolution@ietf.org>
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Hi Authors,


When there are multiple anycast IP addresses assigned to different nodes an=
d one or more nodes
do not advertise a Prefix SID for that anycast address but other nodes adve=
rtise a prefix-sid, there is a possibility
of different implementations behaving differently with respect to programmi=
ng the labelled routes.

This scenario should be considered as a prefix conflict and the behavior sh=
ould be addressed in the draft.
I suggest to update section 3.2.1 with the relevant text to describe the be=
havior.


Rgds
Shraddha


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<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Les,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The issues we are discussing here are=
 specific to Segment Routing and SPRING is the right<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">WG to address this. The problem here =
is not about standardizing what is the default<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">PHP behavior, it is about the scenari=
os when this default behavior assumption need to be applied.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The problem doesn&#8217;t get solved =
by applying default PHP behavior in all cases.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Assume 1.1.1.1 in the example below i=
s a redistributed prefix from another ISIS Level. In that<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">case&nbsp; the pop and forward will c=
ause the service labels to get exposed at A which<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">would cause black-holing or misroutin=
g.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">These are issues caused by config err=
ors and IMO conflict resolution draft is the right place<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">to describe these cases and the solut=
ions so that all vendors have consistent behaviours.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) [mailt=
o:ginsberg@cisco.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 5, 2017 12:05 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Shraddha Hegde &lt;shraddha@juniper.net&gt;; draft-ietf-spring-c=
onflict-resolution@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> spring@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Shraddha &#8211;<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">First, there is no SID conflict here.=
 There is therefore nothing for the conflict resolution draft to discuss.<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Let&#8217;s look at your scenario mor=
e detail. To do so let&#8217;s use the following simple topology:<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
--------------A<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;/<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">G-----------------B<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp; \<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ------------=
----C<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Using your example w addition of P/E =
flag settings in prefix-sid advertisement (using IS-IS naming convention).<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">For simplicity assume all nodes have =
the default SRGB (16000 &#8211; 23999).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">1.prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node=
 A with no SID<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">2.Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node=
 B with SID 10&nbsp; P flag =3D 0 E flag =3D 0
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">3. Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from nod=
e C with SID 10 P flag =3D 1 &nbsp;E flag =3D 0<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Using procedures defined in draft-iet=
f-spring-conflict-resolution all nodes in the network will use SID 10 when =
forwarding traffic to 1.1.1.1. The question is
 what should the penultimate next hop router do when forwarding a packet to=
 each of the owning nodes?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">When G forwards the packet to B, PHP =
is indicated, so G will POP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">When G forwards the packet to C, UHP =
is indicated and E flag is 0, so G will send the packet with outgoing label=
 16010.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">When G forwards the packet to A, beca=
use A has not advertised the prefix-SID (but is SR capable) we do not know =
whether it wants PHP or not &#8211; so we have to make
 an assumption.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Default MPLS behavior is to assume PH=
P.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">If A does not want PHP then it would =
have to advertise the prefix SID so it could specify desired behavior using=
 P/E flags.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Note that this same situation can occ=
ur if the mapping server is used as a global provisioning tool. In such a c=
ase no prefix-SIDs need be advertised in prefix
 reachability advertisements &#8211; all SIDs are advertised by SRMS advert=
isements which do not include P/E flags.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Historically, &nbsp;MPLS implementati=
ons have chosen a default behavior (equivalent to P and E flags =3D 0). Som=
e implementations provide knobs to override this behavior.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">If your concern is that there is not =
an explicit definition of default PHP/Explicit NULL behavior, then I think =
this needs to be directed at the MPLS WG. I do
 not claim to be an MPLS expert, but I have found these references:<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">RFC 3036 Section 6<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&#8220;-&nbsp; Section 2.16 of the MP=
LS architecture [RFC3031] requires that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; the initial label distribution protocol negotiation between<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; peer LSRs enable each LSR to determine whether its peer is<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; capable of popping the label stack.&nbsp; This version of LDP<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; assumes that LSRs support label popping for all link types<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; except ATM and Frame Relay.&nbsp; A future version may specify =
means<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; to make this determination part of the session initiation<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; negotiation.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp; Les<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> Shraddha Hegde [</span><a href=
=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">mailto:shraddha@juniper.net</span></a><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 03, 2017 10:16 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Les Ginsberg (ginsberg); </span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spr=
ing-conflict-resolution@ietf.org"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@iet=
f.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&qu=
ot;,sans-serif"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">spring@ietf.org</span>=
</a><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-ser=
if"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Les,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">From what you describe in section 3.3=
.8, all the SIDs attached to prefixes are fed into the database.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The example I am talking about,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">1.prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node=
 A with no SID<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">2.Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node=
 B with SID 10<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">3. Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from nod=
e C with SID 10<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The advertisements 2 and 3 are fed in=
to the mapping database and 1 isn&#8217;t.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The conflict resolution does not dete=
ct any conflict with the above advertisements and<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">For prefix 1.1.1.1 /SID 10 is chosen.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">All this is fine but the problem is i=
n programming the forwarding plane.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Lets say for a certain node E in the =
network node A is the nexthop for 1.1.1.1.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">How would node E program its forwardi=
ng plane?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Node E should recognize the conflict =
between node A, Node B and C and program the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">SID 10 with a pop and forward instead=
 of looking into the P and E flags of the SID 10?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">This is good enough detail, that shou=
ld be explained in the draft instead of leaving it to the<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Imagination of implementers.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) [</spa=
n><a href=3D"mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com</span></=
a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-seri=
f">]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 3, 2017 11:47 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Shraddha Hegde &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net=
"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-seri=
f">shraddha@juniper.net</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&gt;;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">d=
raft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font=
-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">spring@ietf.org</span=
></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-s=
erif"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Shraddha &#8211;<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">There is a misunderstanding on your p=
art. It would be good if you read Section 3.3.8.&nbsp; Guaranteeing Databas=
e Consistency again.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">In short, it does not matter whether =
you do or do not advertise a prefix SID for a prefix which you own. What ma=
tters is that all routers populate the mapping
 entry database consistent w Section 3.3.8 and that each router applies the=
 conflict resolution rules in a consistent manner. Then all routers will be=
 using the same prefix/SID pair in forwarding.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp; Les<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> Shraddha Hegde [</span><a href=
=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">mailto:shraddha@juniper.net</span></a><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 03, 2017 9:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@i=
etf.org"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,san=
s-serif">draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org</span></a><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">spring@ietf.org</span>=
</a><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-ser=
if"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Hi Authors,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">When there are multiple anycast IP addresses assign=
ed to different nodes and one or more nodes<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">do not advertise a Prefix SID for that anycast addr=
ess but other nodes advertise a prefix-sid, there is a possibility<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">of different implementations behaving differently w=
ith respect to programming the labelled routes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">This scenario should be considered as a prefix conf=
lict and the behavior should be addressed in the draft.<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">I suggest to update section 3.2.1 with the relevant=
 text to describe the behavior.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>, "draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution
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Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 07:22:47 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution
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Shraddha -

I say again - there is no conflict and there is no config error.

Let's use another example which does NOT involve anycast.

       --------------A (1.1.1.1)
  /
G-----------------B (1.1.1.2)
  \
     ----------------C(1.1.1.3)

NO SIDS are locally configured on any routers because the operator has chos=
en to use SRMS as a global provisioning tool.
Therefore none of the prefix reachability advertisements include a SID.

SRMS (say advertised by some node "F" ) advertises the following:

1.1.1.1/32 100 range 3
SRMS advertisements do not support P/E flags.

When G forwards the following packets it has to make a decision as to wheth=
er to do PHP, UHP, EXPLICIT_NULL:


1.1.1.1    to A

1.1.1.2    to B

1.1.1.3    to C

But there is no advertisement of P/E for any of the destinations. It must f=
ollow a default behavior.

If you think there is a problem here, please clearly state what it is and w=
hat you think should be done about it.

But whatever you think it might be, this has nothing to do with SID conflic=
t resolution - which is defining a way to resolve advertised Prefix Conflic=
ts/SID Conflicts as defined in Section 3.2 of the draft.

   Les



From: Shraddha Hegde [mailto:shraddha@juniper.net]
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2017 10:02 PM
To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg); draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org
Cc: spring@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Les,

The issues we are discussing here are specific to Segment Routing and SPRIN=
G is the right
WG to address this. The problem here is not about standardizing what is the=
 default
PHP behavior, it is about the scenarios when this default behavior assumpti=
on need to be applied.

The problem doesn't get solved by applying default PHP behavior in all case=
s.
Assume 1.1.1.1 in the example below is a redistributed prefix from another =
ISIS Level. In that
case  the pop and forward will cause the service labels to get exposed at A=
 which
would cause black-holing or misrouting.

These are issues caused by config errors and IMO conflict resolution draft =
is the right place
to describe these cases and the solutions so that all vendors have consiste=
nt behaviours.


Rgds
Shraddha

From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) [mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 12:05 AM
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net<mailto:shraddha@juniper.net>>; dra=
ft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-spring-confli=
ct-resolution@ietf.org>
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Shraddha -

First, there is no SID conflict here. There is therefore nothing for the co=
nflict resolution draft to discuss.

Let's look at your scenario more detail. To do so let's use the following s=
imple topology:


       --------------A
  /
G-----------------B
  \
     ----------------C

Using your example w addition of P/E flag settings in prefix-sid advertisem=
ent (using IS-IS naming convention).
For simplicity assume all nodes have the default SRGB (16000 - 23999).

1.prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node A with no SID
2.Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node B with SID 10  P flag =3D 0 E flag =
=3D 0
3. Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node C with SID 10 P flag =3D 1  E flag =
=3D 0

Using procedures defined in draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution all nodes=
 in the network will use SID 10 when forwarding traffic to 1.1.1.1. The que=
stion is what should the penultimate next hop router do when forwarding a p=
acket to each of the owning nodes?

When G forwards the packet to B, PHP is indicated, so G will POP.
When G forwards the packet to C, UHP is indicated and E flag is 0, so G wil=
l send the packet with outgoing label 16010.

When G forwards the packet to A, because A has not advertised the prefix-SI=
D (but is SR capable) we do not know whether it wants PHP or not - so we ha=
ve to make an assumption.
Default MPLS behavior is to assume PHP.
If A does not want PHP then it would have to advertise the prefix SID so it=
 could specify desired behavior using P/E flags.

Note that this same situation can occur if the mapping server is used as a =
global provisioning tool. In such a case no prefix-SIDs need be advertised =
in prefix reachability advertisements - all SIDs are advertised by SRMS adv=
ertisements which do not include P/E flags.

Historically,  MPLS implementations have chosen a default behavior (equival=
ent to P and E flags =3D 0). Some implementations provide knobs to override=
 this behavior.

If your concern is that there is not an explicit definition of default PHP/=
Explicit NULL behavior, then I think this needs to be directed at the MPLS =
WG. I do not claim to be an MPLS expert, but I have found these references:

RFC 3036 Section 6

"-  Section 2.16 of the MPLS architecture [RFC3031] requires that
         the initial label distribution protocol negotiation between
         peer LSRs enable each LSR to determine whether its peer is
         capable of popping the label stack.  This version of LDP
         assumes that LSRs support label popping for all link types
         except ATM and Frame Relay.  A future version may specify means
         to make this determination part of the session initiation
         negotiation."

   Les

From: Shraddha Hegde [mailto:shraddha@juniper.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 10:16 PM
To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg); draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org=
<mailto:draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org>
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Les,

>From what you describe in section 3.3.8, all the SIDs attached to prefixes =
are fed into the database.
The example I am talking about,

1.prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node A with no SID
2.Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node B with SID 10
3. Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node C with SID 10

The advertisements 2 and 3 are fed into the mapping database and 1 isn't.

The conflict resolution does not detect any conflict with the above adverti=
sements and
For prefix 1.1.1.1 /SID 10 is chosen.
All this is fine but the problem is in programming the forwarding plane.

Lets say for a certain node E in the network node A is the nexthop for 1.1.=
1.1.
How would node E program its forwarding plane?

Node E should recognize the conflict between node A, Node B and C and progr=
am the
SID 10 with a pop and forward instead of looking into the P and E flags of =
the SID 10?

This is good enough detail, that should be explained in the draft instead o=
f leaving it to the
Imagination of implementers.

Rgds
Shraddha




From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) [mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 3, 2017 11:47 PM
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net<mailto:shraddha@juniper.net>>; dra=
ft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-spring-confli=
ct-resolution@ietf.org>
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Shraddha -

There is a misunderstanding on your part. It would be good if you read Sect=
ion 3.3.8.  Guaranteeing Database Consistency again.

In short, it does not matter whether you do or do not advertise a prefix SI=
D for a prefix which you own. What matters is that all routers populate the=
 mapping entry database consistent w Section 3.3.8 and that each router app=
lies the conflict resolution rules in a consistent manner. Then all routers=
 will be using the same prefix/SID pair in forwarding.

   Les


From: Shraddha Hegde [mailto:shraddha@juniper.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 9:58 AM
To: draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-spring=
-conflict-resolution@ietf.org>
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Hi Authors,


When there are multiple anycast IP addresses assigned to different nodes an=
d one or more nodes
do not advertise a Prefix SID for that anycast address but other nodes adve=
rtise a prefix-sid, there is a possibility
of different implementations behaving differently with respect to programmi=
ng the labelled routes.

This scenario should be considered as a prefix conflict and the behavior sh=
ould be addressed in the draft.
I suggest to update section 3.2.1 with the relevant text to describe the be=
havior.


Rgds
Shraddha


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Shraddha &#8211;<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I say again &#8211; there=
 is no conflict and there is no config error.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Let&#8217;s use another e=
xample which does NOT involve anycast.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; --------------A (1.1.1.1)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp; /<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">G-----------------B (1.1.=
1.2)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp; \<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
----------------C(1.1.1.3)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">NO SIDS are locally confi=
gured on any routers because the operator has chosen to use SRMS as a globa=
l provisioning tool.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Therefore none of the pre=
fix reachability advertisements include a SID.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">SRMS (say advertised by s=
ome node &#8220;F&#8221; ) advertises the following:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">1.1.1.1/32 100 range 3<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">SRMS advertisements do no=
t support P/E flags.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">When G forwards the follo=
wing packets it has to make a decision as to whether to do PHP, UHP, EXPLIC=
IT_NULL:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.5in;mso-list:l0 level4=
 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-l=
ist:Ignore">1.1.1.1<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">to A<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.5in;mso-list:l0 level4=
 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-l=
ist:Ignore">1.1.1.2<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">to B<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.5in;mso-list:l0 level4=
 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-l=
ist:Ignore">1.1.1.3<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">to C<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But there is no advertise=
ment of P/E for any of the destinations. It must follow a default behavior.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If you think there is a p=
roblem here, please clearly state what it is and what you think should be d=
one about it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But whatever you think it=
 might be, this has nothing to do with SID conflict resolution &#8211; whic=
h is defining a way to resolve advertised Prefix Conflicts/SID
 Conflicts as defined in Section 3.2 of the draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp; Les<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Shraddha=
 Hegde [mailto:shraddha@juniper.net]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 04, 2017 10:02 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Les Ginsberg (ginsberg); draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@i=
etf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> spring@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Les,<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The issues we are discuss=
ing here are specific to Segment Routing and SPRING is the right<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">WG to address this. The p=
roblem here is not about standardizing what is the default<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">PHP behavior, it is about=
 the scenarios when this default behavior assumption need to be applied.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The problem doesn&#8217;t=
 get solved by applying default PHP behavior in all cases.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Assume 1.1.1.1 in the exa=
mple below is a redistributed prefix from another ISIS Level. In that<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">case&nbsp; the pop and fo=
rward will cause the service labels to get exposed at A which<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">would cause black-holing =
or misrouting.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">These are issues caused b=
y config errors and IMO conflict resolution draft is the right place<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">to describe these cases a=
nd the solutions so that all vendors have consistent behaviours.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-=
size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Les Gi=
nsberg (ginsberg) [<a href=3D"mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com">mailto:ginsberg@ci=
sco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 5, 2017 12:05 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Shraddha Hegde &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net">shrad=
dha@juniper.net</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org">draft-iet=
f-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Shraddha &#8211;<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">First, there is no SID co=
nflict here. There is therefore nothing for the conflict resolution draft t=
o discuss.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Let&#8217;s look at your =
scenario more detail. To do so let&#8217;s use the following simple topolog=
y:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; --------------A<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;/<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">G-----------------B<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp; \<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
----------------C<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Using your example w addi=
tion of P/E flag settings in prefix-sid advertisement (using IS-IS naming c=
onvention).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">For simplicity assume all=
 nodes have the default SRGB (16000 &#8211; 23999).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">1.prefix 1.1.1.1 advertis=
ed from node A with no SID<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">2.Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertis=
ed from node B with SID 10&nbsp; P flag =3D 0 E flag =3D 0
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">3. Prefix 1.1.1.1 adverti=
sed from node C with SID 10 P flag =3D 1 &nbsp;E flag =3D 0<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Using procedures defined =
in draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution all nodes in the network will use =
SID 10 when forwarding traffic to 1.1.1.1. The question
 is what should the penultimate next hop router do when forwarding a packet=
 to each of the owning nodes?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">When G forwards the packe=
t to B, PHP is indicated, so G will POP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">When G forwards the packe=
t to C, UHP is indicated and E flag is 0, so G will send the packet with ou=
tgoing label 16010.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">When G forwards the packe=
t to A, because A has not advertised the prefix-SID (but is SR capable) we =
do not know whether it wants PHP or not &#8211; so we have to
 make an assumption.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Default MPLS behavior is =
to assume PHP.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If A does not want PHP th=
en it would have to advertise the prefix SID so it could specify desired be=
havior using P/E flags.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Note that this same situa=
tion can occur if the mapping server is used as a global provisioning tool.=
 In such a case no prefix-SIDs need be advertised in prefix
 reachability advertisements &#8211; all SIDs are advertised by SRMS advert=
isements which do not include P/E flags.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Historically, &nbsp;MPLS =
implementations have chosen a default behavior (equivalent to P and E flags=
 =3D 0). Some implementations provide knobs to override this behavior.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If your concern is that t=
here is not an explicit definition of default PHP/Explicit NULL behavior, t=
hen I think this needs to be directed at the MPLS WG. I
 do not claim to be an MPLS expert, but I have found these references:<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">RFC 3036 Section 6<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&#8220;-&nbsp; Section 2.=
16 of the MPLS architecture [RFC3031] requires that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the initial label distribution protocol negotiation=
 between<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; peer LSRs enable each LSR to determine whether its =
peer is<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; capable of popping the label stack.&nbsp; This vers=
ion of LDP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; assumes that LSRs support label popping for all lin=
k types<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; except ATM and Frame Relay.&nbsp; A future version =
may specify means<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to make this determination part of the session init=
iation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; negotiation.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp; Les<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Shraddha=
 Hegde [</span><a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">mailto:s=
hraddha@juniper.net</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 03, 2017 10:16 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Les Ginsberg (ginsberg); </span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spr=
ing-conflict-resolution@ietf.org"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">draft-ietf-spring-conflict-re=
solution@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">spring@iet=
f.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&qu=
ot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Les,<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">From what you describe in=
 section 3.3.8, all the SIDs attached to prefixes are fed into the database=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The example I am talking =
about,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">1.prefix 1.1.1.1 advertis=
ed from node A with no SID<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">2.Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertis=
ed from node B with SID 10<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">3. Prefix 1.1.1.1 adverti=
sed from node C with SID 10<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The advertisements 2 and =
3 are fed into the mapping database and 1 isn&#8217;t.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The conflict resolution d=
oes not detect any conflict with the above advertisements and<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">For prefix 1.1.1.1 /SID 1=
0 is chosen.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">All this is fine but the =
problem is in programming the forwarding plane.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Lets say for a certain no=
de E in the network node A is the nexthop for 1.1.1.1.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">How would node E program =
its forwarding plane?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Node E should recognize t=
he conflict between node A, Node B and C and program the<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">SID 10 with a pop and for=
ward instead of looking into the P and E flags of the SID 10?<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This is good enough detai=
l, that should be explained in the draft instead of leaving it to the<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Imagination of implemente=
rs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-=
size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Les Gi=
nsberg (ginsberg) [</span><a href=3D"mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com"><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;=
">mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 3, 2017 11:47 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Shraddha Hegde &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net=
"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;san=
s-serif&quot;">shraddha@juniper.net</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&gt;;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org</span></a><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">spring@ie=
tf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&=
quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Shraddha &#8211;<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There is a misunderstandi=
ng on your part. It would be good if you read Section 3.3.8.&nbsp; Guarante=
eing Database Consistency again.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In short, it does not mat=
ter whether you do or do not advertise a prefix SID for a prefix which you =
own. What matters is that all routers populate the mapping
 entry database consistent w Section 3.3.8 and that each router applies the=
 conflict resolution rules in a consistent manner. Then all routers will be=
 using the same prefix/SID pair in forwarding.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp; Les<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Shraddha=
 Hegde [</span><a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">mailto:s=
hraddha@juniper.net</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 03, 2017 9:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@i=
etf.org"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;">draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org</span><=
/a><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;san=
s-serif&quot;"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">spring@iet=
f.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&qu=
ot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi Authors,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">When there are multiple anycast IP addr=
esses assigned to different nodes and one or more nodes<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">do not advertise a Prefix SID for that =
anycast address but other nodes advertise a prefix-sid, there is a possibil=
ity<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">of different implementations behaving d=
ifferently with respect to programming the labelled routes.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">This scenario should be considered as a=
 prefix conflict and the behavior should be addressed in the draft.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I suggest to update section 3.2.1 with =
the relevant text to describe the behavior.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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To: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" <aretana@cisco.com>, "gen-art@ietf.org" <gen-art@ietf.org>
References: <149374426742.21414.16408814015665498739@ietfa.amsl.com> <3E209B45-90CE-4EEB-9D2B-E14EFE28DCE0@cisco.com>
Cc: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases.all@ietf.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>
From: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases-10
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On 04/05/2017 21:20, Alvaro Retana (aretana) wrote:
> On 5/2/17, 12:57 PM, "Stewart Bryant" <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Stewart:
>
> Hi!  How are you?
>
> Thanks for the detailed review!
>
>> A significant part of the justification seems to evolve around the
>> inability of MPLS to function in an IPv6 only network.
> It seems to me that this statement summarizes many of the concerns you listed as Major in the review.  I can see why it seems like the justification is: “because MPLS doesn’t work, then we have to do IPv6.” – but I think that even if a complete solution exists (for an MPLS deployment on an IPv6-only network), some operators would still make the design choice of preferring an IPv6-only deployment.
>
> I think that it would be good for the authors to refocus the justification away from “because X doesn’t work”.  Would that address this part of your concerns?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Alvaro.
>

Hi Alvaro,

That would be a step in the right direction particularly if Carlos' OPS 
comments were also addressed.

Without going back over the detail, I seem to remember I had a question 
as to how the homenet case worked given that SR needs topology info, and 
homenet has chosen a DV protocol.

I also had a concerns about the validity of the scaling justification, 
and I think there are issues of trust that need to be discussed.

Both of those may be addressable simply by providing more detail as 
Carlos suggests.

Alternatively maybe it would be better to have a single use case: 
Operators that wish to deploy SR without an MPLS control plane, although 
as I note, you don't need an MPLS control plane to make MPLS SR work.

- Stewart


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From: "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>
To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" <aretana@cisco.com>
CC: "gen-art@ietf.org" <gen-art@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases.all@ietf.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>
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And to add one observation ..

Stewart makes a point that SR-MPLS can be deployed without mpls control
plane.

Well it sure does not require LDP however IGP or BGP extensions for SR-MPLS
signalling is also an example of mpls control plane ... even if much
simpler than traditional cases it is still required.

Cheers,
R.

On May 5, 2017 12:10 PM, "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>
wrote:

>
> > On May 5, 2017, at 11:52 AM, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Alternatively maybe it would be better to have a single use case:
> Operators that wish to deploy SR without an MPLS control plane,
>
>
> I=E2=80=99d agree with the above. Let=E2=80=99s simplify the document wit=
h, at the end,
> what is the simplest and most evident use case.
>
> s.
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>

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<div dir=3D"auto">And to add one observation ..=C2=A0<div dir=3D"auto"><br>=
</div><div dir=3D"auto">Stewart makes a point that SR-MPLS can be deployed =
without mpls control plane.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">We=
ll it sure does not require LDP however IGP or BGP extensions for SR-MPLS s=
ignalling is also an example of mpls control plane ... even if much simpler=
 than traditional cases it is still required.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></=
div><div dir=3D"auto">Cheers,</div><div dir=3D"auto">R.</div></div></div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On May 5, 2017 12:1=
0 PM, &quot;Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sprevidi=
@cisco.com">sprevidi@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
&gt; On May 5, 2017, at 11:52 AM, Stewart Bryant &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stew=
art.bryant@gmail.com">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Alternatively maybe it would be better to have a single use case: Oper=
ators that wish to deploy SR without an MPLS control plane,<br>
<br>
<br>
I=E2=80=99d agree with the above. Let=E2=80=99s simplify the document with,=
 at the end, what is the simplest and most evident use case.<br>
<br>
s.<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/spring</a><br=
>
</blockquote></div></div>

--94eb2c0c85e47fd130054ec431f1--


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From: "Mark Townsley (townsley)" <townsley@cisco.com>
To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
CC: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" <aretana@cisco.com>, "gen-art@ietf.org" <gen-art@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases.all@ietf.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>
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Les,

The use-case you are describing here is SRMS advertisements and there is no=
 problem in handling SRMS
advertisements. There is a special indication in the protocol messages to i=
ndicate it is an SRMS advertisement
and it is documented in ISIS and OSPF drafts in detail, how to handle the s=
cenario.

You are suggesting to use the same procedures to handle the case of anycast=
-SIDs where prefix advertisements aren't
accompanied by a SID advertisements for some of the prefixes.
This procedure does work for anycast-SIDs and I suggest you to add the text=
 to the
draft to standardize. I believe conflict resolution draft is the best place=
 to add it.
Below is my suggested text for the draft.

"Section 3.2.3 Anycast SIDs
[SR-ARCH] defines anycast SIDs which is used for a number of use-cases.
When there are multiple nodes which advertise same anycast prefix, it is po=
ssible that
one of the nodes does not advertise a SID for the prefix. This discrepancy
is not detected by the conflict resolution procedure as the conflict resolu=
tion database
takes the prefix-SID mappings as input and this particular  case does not h=
ave
prefix-SID mapping.

The forwarding plane follows IP routing and so nodes in the network MAY poi=
nt to a
node which does not advertise a SID. This situation is similar to an SRMS a=
dvertisement
where prefix reachability advertisements from a node does not include a SID=
 advertisement for the prefix.
The route programming for such anycast SIDs should follow the PHP procedure=
s as described in,
[SR-ISIS] and [SR-OSPF] for an SRMS advertisement."


Rgds
Shraddha

From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) [mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 12:53 PM
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>; draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resol=
ution@ietf.org
Cc: spring@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Shraddha -

I say again - there is no conflict and there is no config error.

Let's use another example which does NOT involve anycast.

       --------------A (1.1.1.1)
  /
G-----------------B (1.1.1.2)
  \
     ----------------C(1.1.1.3)

NO SIDS are locally configured on any routers because the operator has chos=
en to use SRMS as a global provisioning tool.
Therefore none of the prefix reachability advertisements include a SID.

SRMS (say advertised by some node "F" ) advertises the following:

1.1.1.1/32 100 range 3
SRMS advertisements do not support P/E flags.

When G forwards the following packets it has to make a decision as to wheth=
er to do PHP, UHP, EXPLICIT_NULL:


1.1.1.1    to A

1.1.1.2    to B

1.1.1.3    to C

But there is no advertisement of P/E for any of the destinations. It must f=
ollow a default behavior.

If you think there is a problem here, please clearly state what it is and w=
hat you think should be done about it.

But whatever you think it might be, this has nothing to do with SID conflic=
t resolution - which is defining a way to resolve advertised Prefix Conflic=
ts/SID Conflicts as defined in Section 3.2 of the draft.

   Les



From: Shraddha Hegde [mailto:shraddha@juniper.net]
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2017 10:02 PM
To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg); draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org=
<mailto:draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org>
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Les,

The issues we are discussing here are specific to Segment Routing and SPRIN=
G is the right
WG to address this. The problem here is not about standardizing what is the=
 default
PHP behavior, it is about the scenarios when this default behavior assumpti=
on need to be applied.

The problem doesn't get solved by applying default PHP behavior in all case=
s.
Assume 1.1.1.1 in the example below is a redistributed prefix from another =
ISIS Level. In that
case  the pop and forward will cause the service labels to get exposed at A=
 which
would cause black-holing or misrouting.

These are issues caused by config errors and IMO conflict resolution draft =
is the right place
to describe these cases and the solutions so that all vendors have consiste=
nt behaviours.


Rgds
Shraddha

From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) [mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 12:05 AM
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net<mailto:shraddha@juniper.net>>; dra=
ft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-spring-confli=
ct-resolution@ietf.org>
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Shraddha -

First, there is no SID conflict here. There is therefore nothing for the co=
nflict resolution draft to discuss.

Let's look at your scenario more detail. To do so let's use the following s=
imple topology:


       --------------A
  /
G-----------------B
  \
     ----------------C

Using your example w addition of P/E flag settings in prefix-sid advertisem=
ent (using IS-IS naming convention).
For simplicity assume all nodes have the default SRGB (16000 - 23999).

1.prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node A with no SID
2.Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node B with SID 10  P flag =3D 0 E flag =
=3D 0
3. Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node C with SID 10 P flag =3D 1  E flag =
=3D 0

Using procedures defined in draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution all nodes=
 in the network will use SID 10 when forwarding traffic to 1.1.1.1. The que=
stion is what should the penultimate next hop router do when forwarding a p=
acket to each of the owning nodes?

When G forwards the packet to B, PHP is indicated, so G will POP.
When G forwards the packet to C, UHP is indicated and E flag is 0, so G wil=
l send the packet with outgoing label 16010.

When G forwards the packet to A, because A has not advertised the prefix-SI=
D (but is SR capable) we do not know whether it wants PHP or not - so we ha=
ve to make an assumption.
Default MPLS behavior is to assume PHP.
If A does not want PHP then it would have to advertise the prefix SID so it=
 could specify desired behavior using P/E flags.

Note that this same situation can occur if the mapping server is used as a =
global provisioning tool. In such a case no prefix-SIDs need be advertised =
in prefix reachability advertisements - all SIDs are advertised by SRMS adv=
ertisements which do not include P/E flags.

Historically,  MPLS implementations have chosen a default behavior (equival=
ent to P and E flags =3D 0). Some implementations provide knobs to override=
 this behavior.

If your concern is that there is not an explicit definition of default PHP/=
Explicit NULL behavior, then I think this needs to be directed at the MPLS =
WG. I do not claim to be an MPLS expert, but I have found these references:

RFC 3036 Section 6

"-  Section 2.16 of the MPLS architecture [RFC3031] requires that
         the initial label distribution protocol negotiation between
         peer LSRs enable each LSR to determine whether its peer is
         capable of popping the label stack.  This version of LDP
         assumes that LSRs support label popping for all link types
         except ATM and Frame Relay.  A future version may specify means
         to make this determination part of the session initiation
         negotiation."

   Les

From: Shraddha Hegde [mailto:shraddha@juniper.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 10:16 PM
To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg); draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org=
<mailto:draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org>
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Les,

>From what you describe in section 3.3.8, all the SIDs attached to prefixes =
are fed into the database.
The example I am talking about,

1.prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node A with no SID
2.Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node B with SID 10
3. Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node C with SID 10

The advertisements 2 and 3 are fed into the mapping database and 1 isn't.

The conflict resolution does not detect any conflict with the above adverti=
sements and
For prefix 1.1.1.1 /SID 10 is chosen.
All this is fine but the problem is in programming the forwarding plane.

Lets say for a certain node E in the network node A is the nexthop for 1.1.=
1.1.
How would node E program its forwarding plane?

Node E should recognize the conflict between node A, Node B and C and progr=
am the
SID 10 with a pop and forward instead of looking into the P and E flags of =
the SID 10?

This is good enough detail, that should be explained in the draft instead o=
f leaving it to the
Imagination of implementers.

Rgds
Shraddha




From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) [mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 3, 2017 11:47 PM
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net<mailto:shraddha@juniper.net>>; dra=
ft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-spring-confli=
ct-resolution@ietf.org>
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Shraddha -

There is a misunderstanding on your part. It would be good if you read Sect=
ion 3.3.8.  Guaranteeing Database Consistency again.

In short, it does not matter whether you do or do not advertise a prefix SI=
D for a prefix which you own. What matters is that all routers populate the=
 mapping entry database consistent w Section 3.3.8 and that each router app=
lies the conflict resolution rules in a consistent manner. Then all routers=
 will be using the same prefix/SID pair in forwarding.

   Les


From: Shraddha Hegde [mailto:shraddha@juniper.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 9:58 AM
To: draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-spring=
-conflict-resolution@ietf.org>
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Hi Authors,


When there are multiple anycast IP addresses assigned to different nodes an=
d one or more nodes
do not advertise a Prefix SID for that anycast address but other nodes adve=
rtise a prefix-sid, there is a possibility
of different implementations behaving differently with respect to programmi=
ng the labelled routes.

This scenario should be considered as a prefix conflict and the behavior sh=
ould be addressed in the draft.
I suggest to update section 3.2.1 with the relevant text to describe the be=
havior.


Rgds
Shraddha


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Les,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The use-case you are describing here =
is SRMS advertisements and there is no problem in handling SRMS<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">advertisements. There is a special in=
dication in the protocol messages to indicate it is an SRMS advertisement<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">and it is documented in ISIS and OSPF=
 drafts in detail, how to handle the scenario.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">You are suggesting to use the same pr=
ocedures to handle the case of anycast-SIDs where prefix advertisements are=
n&#8217;t<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">accompanied by a SID advertisements f=
or some of the prefixes.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">This procedure does work for anycast-=
SIDs and I suggest you to add the text to the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">draft to standardize. I believe confl=
ict resolution draft is the best place to add it.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Below is my suggested text for the dr=
aft.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&#8220;Section 3.2.3 Anycast SIDs<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">[SR-ARCH] defines anycast SIDs which =
is used for a number of use-cases.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">When there are multiple nodes which a=
dvertise same anycast prefix, it is possible that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">one of the nodes does not advertise a=
 SID for the prefix. This discrepancy<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">is not detected by the conflict resol=
ution procedure as the conflict resolution database<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">takes the prefix-SID mappings as inpu=
t and this particular&nbsp; case does not have<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">prefix-SID mapping.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The forwarding plane follows IP routi=
ng and so nodes in the network MAY point to a<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">node which does not advertise a SID. =
This situation is similar to an SRMS advertisement<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">where prefix reachability advertiseme=
nts from a node does not include a SID advertisement for the prefix.<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The route programming for such anycas=
t SIDs should follow the PHP procedures as described in,<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">[SR-ISIS] and [SR-OSPF] for an SRMS a=
dvertisement.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) [mailt=
o:ginsberg@cisco.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 5, 2017 12:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Shraddha Hegde &lt;shraddha@juniper.net&gt;; draft-ietf-spring-c=
onflict-resolution@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> spring@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Shraddha &#8211;<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I say again &#8211; there is no confl=
ict and there is no config error.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Let&#8217;s use another example which=
 does NOT involve anycast.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
--------------A (1.1.1.1)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp; /<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">G-----------------B (1.1.1.2)<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp; \<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ------------=
----C(1.1.1.3)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">NO SIDS are locally configured on any=
 routers because the operator has chosen to use SRMS as a global provisioni=
ng tool.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Therefore none of the prefix reachabi=
lity advertisements include a SID.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">SRMS (say advertised by some node &#8=
220;F&#8221; ) advertises the following:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">1.1.1.1/32 100 range 3<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">SRMS advertisements do not support P/=
E flags.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">When G forwards the following packets=
 it has to make a decision as to whether to do PHP, UHP, EXPLICIT_NULL:<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.5in;mso-list:l0 level4=
 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=
1.1.1.1<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">to A<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.5in;mso-list:l0 level4=
 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=
1.1.1.2<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">to B<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.5in;mso-list:l0 level4=
 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=
1.1.1.3<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">to C<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">But there is no advertisement of P/E =
for any of the destinations. It must follow a default behavior.<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">If you think there is a problem here,=
 please clearly state what it is and what you think should be done about it=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">But whatever you think it might be, t=
his has nothing to do with SID conflict resolution &#8211; which is definin=
g a way to resolve advertised Prefix Conflicts/SID Conflicts
 as defined in Section 3.2 of the draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp; Les<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> Shraddha Hegde [<a href=3D"mailt=
o:shraddha@juniper.net">mailto:shraddha@juniper.net</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 04, 2017 10:02 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Les Ginsberg (ginsberg); <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-con=
flict-resolution@ietf.org">
draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Les,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The issues we are discussing here are=
 specific to Segment Routing and SPRING is the right<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">WG to address this. The problem here =
is not about standardizing what is the default<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">PHP behavior, it is about the scenari=
os when this default behavior assumption need to be applied.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The problem doesn&#8217;t get solved =
by applying default PHP behavior in all cases.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Assume 1.1.1.1 in the example below i=
s a redistributed prefix from another ISIS Level. In that<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">case&nbsp; the pop and forward will c=
ause the service labels to get exposed at A which<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">would cause black-holing or misroutin=
g.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">These are issues caused by config err=
ors and IMO conflict resolution draft is the right place<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">to describe these cases and the solut=
ions so that all vendors have consistent behaviours.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) [<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com">mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 5, 2017 12:05 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Shraddha Hegde &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net">shrad=
dha@juniper.net</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org">draft-iet=
f-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Shraddha &#8211;<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">First, there is no SID conflict here.=
 There is therefore nothing for the conflict resolution draft to discuss.<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Let&#8217;s look at your scenario mor=
e detail. To do so let&#8217;s use the following simple topology:<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
--------------A<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;/<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">G-----------------B<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp; \<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ------------=
----C<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Using your example w addition of P/E =
flag settings in prefix-sid advertisement (using IS-IS naming convention).<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">For simplicity assume all nodes have =
the default SRGB (16000 &#8211; 23999).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">1.prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node=
 A with no SID<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">2.Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node=
 B with SID 10&nbsp; P flag =3D 0 E flag =3D 0
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">3. Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from nod=
e C with SID 10 P flag =3D 1 &nbsp;E flag =3D 0<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Using procedures defined in draft-iet=
f-spring-conflict-resolution all nodes in the network will use SID 10 when =
forwarding traffic to 1.1.1.1. The question is
 what should the penultimate next hop router do when forwarding a packet to=
 each of the owning nodes?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">When G forwards the packet to B, PHP =
is indicated, so G will POP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">When G forwards the packet to C, UHP =
is indicated and E flag is 0, so G will send the packet with outgoing label=
 16010.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">When G forwards the packet to A, beca=
use A has not advertised the prefix-SID (but is SR capable) we do not know =
whether it wants PHP or not &#8211; so we have to make
 an assumption.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Default MPLS behavior is to assume PH=
P.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">If A does not want PHP then it would =
have to advertise the prefix SID so it could specify desired behavior using=
 P/E flags.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Note that this same situation can occ=
ur if the mapping server is used as a global provisioning tool. In such a c=
ase no prefix-SIDs need be advertised in prefix
 reachability advertisements &#8211; all SIDs are advertised by SRMS advert=
isements which do not include P/E flags.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Historically, &nbsp;MPLS implementati=
ons have chosen a default behavior (equivalent to P and E flags =3D 0). Som=
e implementations provide knobs to override this behavior.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">If your concern is that there is not =
an explicit definition of default PHP/Explicit NULL behavior, then I think =
this needs to be directed at the MPLS WG. I do
 not claim to be an MPLS expert, but I have found these references:<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">RFC 3036 Section 6<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&#8220;-&nbsp; Section 2.16 of the MP=
LS architecture [RFC3031] requires that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; the initial label distribution protocol negotiation between<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; peer LSRs enable each LSR to determine whether its peer is<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; capable of popping the label stack.&nbsp; This version of LDP<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; assumes that LSRs support label popping for all link types<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; except ATM and Frame Relay.&nbsp; A future version may specify =
means<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; to make this determination part of the session initiation<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; negotiation.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp; Les<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> Shraddha Hegde [</span><a href=
=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">mailto:shraddha@juniper.net</span></a><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 03, 2017 10:16 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Les Ginsberg (ginsberg); </span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spr=
ing-conflict-resolution@ietf.org"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@iet=
f.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&qu=
ot;,sans-serif"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">spring@ietf.org</span>=
</a><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-ser=
if"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Les,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">From what you describe in section 3.3=
.8, all the SIDs attached to prefixes are fed into the database.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The example I am talking about,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">1.prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node=
 A with no SID<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">2.Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node=
 B with SID 10<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">3. Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from nod=
e C with SID 10<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The advertisements 2 and 3 are fed in=
to the mapping database and 1 isn&#8217;t.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The conflict resolution does not dete=
ct any conflict with the above advertisements and<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">For prefix 1.1.1.1 /SID 10 is chosen.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">All this is fine but the problem is i=
n programming the forwarding plane.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Lets say for a certain node E in the =
network node A is the nexthop for 1.1.1.1.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">How would node E program its forwardi=
ng plane?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Node E should recognize the conflict =
between node A, Node B and C and program the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">SID 10 with a pop and forward instead=
 of looking into the P and E flags of the SID 10?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">This is good enough detail, that shou=
ld be explained in the draft instead of leaving it to the<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Imagination of implementers.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) [</spa=
n><a href=3D"mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com</span></=
a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-seri=
f">]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 3, 2017 11:47 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Shraddha Hegde &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net=
"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-seri=
f">shraddha@juniper.net</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&gt;;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">d=
raft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font=
-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">spring@ietf.org</span=
></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-s=
erif"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Shraddha &#8211;<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">There is a misunderstanding on your p=
art. It would be good if you read Section 3.3.8.&nbsp; Guaranteeing Databas=
e Consistency again.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">In short, it does not matter whether =
you do or do not advertise a prefix SID for a prefix which you own. What ma=
tters is that all routers populate the mapping
 entry database consistent w Section 3.3.8 and that each router applies the=
 conflict resolution rules in a consistent manner. Then all routers will be=
 using the same prefix/SID pair in forwarding.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp; Les<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> Shraddha Hegde [</span><a href=
=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">mailto:shraddha@juniper.net</span></a><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 03, 2017 9:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@i=
etf.org"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,san=
s-serif">draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org</span></a><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">spring@ietf.org</span>=
</a><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-ser=
if"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Hi Authors,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">When there are multiple anycast IP addresses assign=
ed to different nodes and one or more nodes<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">do not advertise a Prefix SID for that anycast addr=
ess but other nodes advertise a prefix-sid, there is a possibility<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">of different implementations behaving differently w=
ith respect to programming the labelled routes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">This scenario should be considered as a prefix conf=
lict and the behavior should be addressed in the draft.<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">I suggest to update section 3.2.1 with the relevant=
 text to describe the behavior.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_BN3PR05MB2706FD3D43B6B4B0CEF4989DD5EE0BN3PR05MB2706namp_--


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To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, stefano previdi <sprevidi@cisco.com>
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From: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
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On 05/05/2017 11:17, Robert Raszuk wrote:
> And to add one observation ..
>
> Stewart makes a point that SR-MPLS can be deployed without mpls 
> control plane.
>
> Well it sure does not require LDP however IGP or BGP extensions for 
> SR-MPLS signalling is also an example of mpls control plane ... even 
> if much simpler than traditional cases it is still required.

Yes, but those are required anyway to support SRv6. You always have to 
provide the mapping between the function, the function identifier and 
the function location.

- Stewart


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Cc: stefano previdi <sprevidi@cisco.com>, IETF Discussion <ietf@ietf.org>,  "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" <aretana@cisco.com>,  "draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases.all@ietf.org>,  "gen-art@ietf.org" <gen-art@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
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--001a114043b0884fbe054f0228a8
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Hi Stewart,

> =E2=80=8B
Yes, but those are required anyway to support SRv6

That is incorrect.

Please watch Les's presentation during last IETF where he clearly and
correctly stated that IGP extensions for SRv6 are optional and not required
(unlike in the case of SR-MPLS where such signalling of global labels is
indeed necessary to build "global labels" based forwarding).

As a matter of fact I knew this will generate confusion in IETF and
recommended to make it very clear in the drafts. Distribution of SID
functions does not need to be carried in routing protocols. And SRv6 SID
locator function is native to IPv6 routing hence no extensions needed. Sure
they can be carried in IGPs or BGP but this is just an option not
necessity.

Best,
Robert.



On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 12:15 PM, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On 05/05/2017 11:17, Robert Raszuk wrote:
>
>> And to add one observation ..
>>
>> Stewart makes a point that SR-MPLS can be deployed without mpls control
>> plane.
>>
>> Well it sure does not require LDP however IGP or BGP extensions for
>> SR-MPLS signalling is also an example of mpls control plane ... even if
>> much simpler than traditional cases it is still required.
>>
>
> =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
> Yes, but those are required anyway to support SRv6. You always have to
> provide the mapping between the function, the function identifier and the
> function location.
>
> - Stewart
>
>

--001a114043b0884fbe054f0228a8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"d=
isplay:inline"><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-f=
amily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt" style=3D"display:inline">Hi Stewart,</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"display:inline"><br></div></div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-si=
ze:small"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"display:inline">&gt; =E2=80=
=8B</div><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif">Yes, but those are re=
quired anyway to support SRv6</span><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><spa=
n style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif">That is incorrect.=C2=A0</span></d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;font-size:small"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></sp=
an></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,=
sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif">Pl=
ease watch Les&#39;s presentation during last IETF where he clearly and cor=
rectly stated that IGP extensions for SRv6 are optional and not required (u=
nlike in the case of SR-MPLS where such signalling of global labels is inde=
ed necessary to build &quot;global labels&quot; based forwarding).=C2=A0</s=
pan></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica=
,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif"><=
br></span></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,hel=
vetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-se=
rif">As a matter of fact I knew this will generate confusion in IETF and re=
commended to make it very clear in the drafts. Distribution of SID function=
s does not need to be carried in routing protocols. And SRv6 SID locator fu=
nction is native to IPv6 routing hence no extensions needed. Sure they can =
be carried in IGPs or BGP but this is just an option not necessity.=C2=A0</=
span></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetic=
a,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif">=
<br></span></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-s=
erif">Best,</span></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:a=
rial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style=3D"font-family:arial=
,sans-serif">Robert.</span></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font=
-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style=3D"font-fam=
ily:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style=3D"=
font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 12:15 PM, Stewart Brya=
nt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"gmail-"><br>
<br>
On 05/05/2017 11:17, Robert Raszuk wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
And to add one observation ..<br>
<br>
Stewart makes a point that SR-MPLS can be deployed without mpls control pla=
ne.<br>
<br>
Well it sure does not require LDP however IGP or BGP extensions for SR-MPLS=
 signalling is also an example of mpls control plane ... even if much simpl=
er than traditional cases it is still required.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small;display:inline">=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B</div>Yes, but those ar=
e required anyway to support SRv6. You always have to provide the mapping b=
etween the function, the function identifier and the function location.<spa=
n class=3D"gmail-HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
- Stewart<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a114043b0884fbe054f0228a8--


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking of the IETF.

        Title           : Resiliency use cases in SPRING networks
        Authors         : Clarence Filsfils
                          Stefano Previdi
                          Bruno Decraene
                          Rob Shakir
	Filename        : draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-10.txt
	Pages           : 11
	Date            : 2017-05-08

Abstract:
   This document identifies and describes the requirements for a set of
   use cases related to network resiliency on Segment Routing (SPRING)
   networks.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-10
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-10

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-10


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>
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Thread-Topic: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-10.txt
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Now, hopefully, this version addresses all comments (one was missing).

s.


> On May 8, 2017, at 7:40 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct=
ories.
> This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking of t=
he IETF.
>=20
>        Title           : Resiliency use cases in SPRING networks
>        Authors         : Clarence Filsfils
>                          Stefano Previdi
>                          Bruno Decraene
>                          Rob Shakir
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-10.txt
> 	Pages           : 11
> 	Date            : 2017-05-08
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This document identifies and describes the requirements for a set of
>   use cases related to network resiliency on Segment Routing (SPRING)
>   networks.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases/
>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-10
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-ca=
ses-10
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-case=
s-10
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring


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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>, "draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution
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Shraddha -

We are still not on the same page.

The text you mention as regards handling SRMS advertisements in the IGP dra=
fts (e.g. Section 2.4.5.2 in https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-isis-segmen=
t-routing-extensions-12.txt ) is discussing how one determines if the adver=
tiser of the prefix is also the owner of the prefix. This is necessary to d=
etermine if a node is or is not the penultimate nexthop.

The question I believe you are raising is - once a node has determined that=
 it IS the penultimate nexthop - how does it determine whether it should do=
 PHP/UHP and/or use EXPLICIT_NULL.

The point I have made below is that in the absence of a prefix_sid advertis=
ement you do not have explicit settings for P/E bits and therefore have to =
rely on a default behavior. This is true whenever you have a SID for a pref=
ix but you do not have a prefix-SID advertisement from the originating node=
. AS we have discussed below this can happen when the SID is advertised sol=
ely in SRMS advertisements or (in the case of anycast) when a SID is advert=
ised by a subset of the nodes supporting the anycast address.

This is NOT the subject of the Conflict Resolution draft - so no text belon=
gs there. And I am not convinced anything needs to be said about this.

   Les



From: Shraddha Hegde [mailto:shraddha@juniper.net]
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2017 1:39 AM
To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg); draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org
Cc: spring@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Les,

The use-case you are describing here is SRMS advertisements and there is no=
 problem in handling SRMS
advertisements. There is a special indication in the protocol messages to i=
ndicate it is an SRMS advertisement
and it is documented in ISIS and OSPF drafts in detail, how to handle the s=
cenario.

You are suggesting to use the same procedures to handle the case of anycast=
-SIDs where prefix advertisements aren't
accompanied by a SID advertisements for some of the prefixes.
This procedure does work for anycast-SIDs and I suggest you to add the text=
 to the
draft to standardize. I believe conflict resolution draft is the best place=
 to add it.
Below is my suggested text for the draft.

"Section 3.2.3 Anycast SIDs
[SR-ARCH] defines anycast SIDs which is used for a number of use-cases.
When there are multiple nodes which advertise same anycast prefix, it is po=
ssible that
one of the nodes does not advertise a SID for the prefix. This discrepancy
is not detected by the conflict resolution procedure as the conflict resolu=
tion database
takes the prefix-SID mappings as input and this particular  case does not h=
ave
prefix-SID mapping.

The forwarding plane follows IP routing and so nodes in the network MAY poi=
nt to a
node which does not advertise a SID. This situation is similar to an SRMS a=
dvertisement
where prefix reachability advertisements from a node does not include a SID=
 advertisement for the prefix.
The route programming for such anycast SIDs should follow the PHP procedure=
s as described in,
[SR-ISIS] and [SR-OSPF] for an SRMS advertisement."


Rgds
Shraddha

From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) [mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 12:53 PM
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net<mailto:shraddha@juniper.net>>; dra=
ft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-spring-confli=
ct-resolution@ietf.org>
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Shraddha -

I say again - there is no conflict and there is no config error.

Let's use another example which does NOT involve anycast.

       --------------A (1.1.1.1)
  /
G-----------------B (1.1.1.2)
  \
     ----------------C(1.1.1.3)

NO SIDS are locally configured on any routers because the operator has chos=
en to use SRMS as a global provisioning tool.
Therefore none of the prefix reachability advertisements include a SID.

SRMS (say advertised by some node "F" ) advertises the following:

1.1.1.1/32 100 range 3
SRMS advertisements do not support P/E flags.

When G forwards the following packets it has to make a decision as to wheth=
er to do PHP, UHP, EXPLICIT_NULL:


1.1.1.1    to A

1.1.1.2    to B

1.1.1.3    to C

But there is no advertisement of P/E for any of the destinations. It must f=
ollow a default behavior.

If you think there is a problem here, please clearly state what it is and w=
hat you think should be done about it.

But whatever you think it might be, this has nothing to do with SID conflic=
t resolution - which is defining a way to resolve advertised Prefix Conflic=
ts/SID Conflicts as defined in Section 3.2 of the draft.

   Les



From: Shraddha Hegde [mailto:shraddha@juniper.net]
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2017 10:02 PM
To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg); draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org=
<mailto:draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org>
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Les,

The issues we are discussing here are specific to Segment Routing and SPRIN=
G is the right
WG to address this. The problem here is not about standardizing what is the=
 default
PHP behavior, it is about the scenarios when this default behavior assumpti=
on need to be applied.

The problem doesn't get solved by applying default PHP behavior in all case=
s.
Assume 1.1.1.1 in the example below is a redistributed prefix from another =
ISIS Level. In that
case  the pop and forward will cause the service labels to get exposed at A=
 which
would cause black-holing or misrouting.

These are issues caused by config errors and IMO conflict resolution draft =
is the right place
to describe these cases and the solutions so that all vendors have consiste=
nt behaviours.


Rgds
Shraddha

From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) [mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com]
Sent: Friday, May 5, 2017 12:05 AM
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net<mailto:shraddha@juniper.net>>; dra=
ft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-spring-confli=
ct-resolution@ietf.org>
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Shraddha -

First, there is no SID conflict here. There is therefore nothing for the co=
nflict resolution draft to discuss.

Let's look at your scenario more detail. To do so let's use the following s=
imple topology:


       --------------A
  /
G-----------------B
  \
     ----------------C

Using your example w addition of P/E flag settings in prefix-sid advertisem=
ent (using IS-IS naming convention).
For simplicity assume all nodes have the default SRGB (16000 - 23999).

1.prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node A with no SID
2.Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node B with SID 10  P flag =3D 0 E flag =
=3D 0
3. Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node C with SID 10 P flag =3D 1  E flag =
=3D 0

Using procedures defined in draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution all nodes=
 in the network will use SID 10 when forwarding traffic to 1.1.1.1. The que=
stion is what should the penultimate next hop router do when forwarding a p=
acket to each of the owning nodes?

When G forwards the packet to B, PHP is indicated, so G will POP.
When G forwards the packet to C, UHP is indicated and E flag is 0, so G wil=
l send the packet with outgoing label 16010.

When G forwards the packet to A, because A has not advertised the prefix-SI=
D (but is SR capable) we do not know whether it wants PHP or not - so we ha=
ve to make an assumption.
Default MPLS behavior is to assume PHP.
If A does not want PHP then it would have to advertise the prefix SID so it=
 could specify desired behavior using P/E flags.

Note that this same situation can occur if the mapping server is used as a =
global provisioning tool. In such a case no prefix-SIDs need be advertised =
in prefix reachability advertisements - all SIDs are advertised by SRMS adv=
ertisements which do not include P/E flags.

Historically,  MPLS implementations have chosen a default behavior (equival=
ent to P and E flags =3D 0). Some implementations provide knobs to override=
 this behavior.

If your concern is that there is not an explicit definition of default PHP/=
Explicit NULL behavior, then I think this needs to be directed at the MPLS =
WG. I do not claim to be an MPLS expert, but I have found these references:

RFC 3036 Section 6

"-  Section 2.16 of the MPLS architecture [RFC3031] requires that
         the initial label distribution protocol negotiation between
         peer LSRs enable each LSR to determine whether its peer is
         capable of popping the label stack.  This version of LDP
         assumes that LSRs support label popping for all link types
         except ATM and Frame Relay.  A future version may specify means
         to make this determination part of the session initiation
         negotiation."

   Les

From: Shraddha Hegde [mailto:shraddha@juniper.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 10:16 PM
To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg); draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org=
<mailto:draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org>
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Les,

>From what you describe in section 3.3.8, all the SIDs attached to prefixes =
are fed into the database.
The example I am talking about,

1.prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node A with no SID
2.Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node B with SID 10
3. Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertised from node C with SID 10

The advertisements 2 and 3 are fed into the mapping database and 1 isn't.

The conflict resolution does not detect any conflict with the above adverti=
sements and
For prefix 1.1.1.1 /SID 10 is chosen.
All this is fine but the problem is in programming the forwarding plane.

Lets say for a certain node E in the network node A is the nexthop for 1.1.=
1.1.
How would node E program its forwarding plane?

Node E should recognize the conflict between node A, Node B and C and progr=
am the
SID 10 with a pop and forward instead of looking into the P and E flags of =
the SID 10?

This is good enough detail, that should be explained in the draft instead o=
f leaving it to the
Imagination of implementers.

Rgds
Shraddha




From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) [mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 3, 2017 11:47 PM
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net<mailto:shraddha@juniper.net>>; dra=
ft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-spring-confli=
ct-resolution@ietf.org>
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Shraddha -

There is a misunderstanding on your part. It would be good if you read Sect=
ion 3.3.8.  Guaranteeing Database Consistency again.

In short, it does not matter whether you do or do not advertise a prefix SI=
D for a prefix which you own. What matters is that all routers populate the=
 mapping entry database consistent w Section 3.3.8 and that each router app=
lies the conflict resolution rules in a consistent manner. Then all routers=
 will be using the same prefix/SID pair in forwarding.

   Les


From: Shraddha Hegde [mailto:shraddha@juniper.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 9:58 AM
To: draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-spring=
-conflict-resolution@ietf.org>
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Hi Authors,


When there are multiple anycast IP addresses assigned to different nodes an=
d one or more nodes
do not advertise a Prefix SID for that anycast address but other nodes adve=
rtise a prefix-sid, there is a possibility
of different implementations behaving differently with respect to programmi=
ng the labelled routes.

This scenario should be considered as a prefix conflict and the behavior sh=
ould be addressed in the draft.
I suggest to update section 3.2.1 with the relevant text to describe the be=
havior.


Rgds
Shraddha


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Shraddha &#8211;<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">We are still not on the s=
ame page.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The text you mention as r=
egards handling SRMS advertisements in the IGP drafts (e.g. Section 2.4.5.2=
 in
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-extensio=
ns-12.txt">
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-extensions-12.txt</=
a> ) is discussing how one determines if the advertiser of the prefix is al=
so the owner of the prefix. This is necessary to determine if a node is or =
is not the penultimate nexthop.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The question I believe yo=
u are raising is &#8211; once a node has determined that it IS the penultim=
ate nexthop &#8211; how does it determine whether it should do PHP/UHP
 and/or use EXPLICIT_NULL.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The point I have made bel=
ow is that in the absence of a prefix_sid advertisement you do not have exp=
licit settings for P/E bits and therefore have to rely on
 a default behavior. This is true whenever you have a SID for a prefix but =
you do not have a prefix-SID advertisement from the originating node. AS we=
 have discussed below this can happen when the SID is advertised solely in =
SRMS advertisements or (in the case
 of anycast) when a SID is advertised by a subset of the nodes supporting t=
he anycast address.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This is NOT the subject o=
f the Conflict Resolution draft &#8211; so no text belongs there. And I am =
not convinced anything needs to be said about this.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp; Les<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Shraddha=
 Hegde [mailto:shraddha@juniper.net]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 08, 2017 1:39 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Les Ginsberg (ginsberg); draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@i=
etf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> spring@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Les,<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The use-case you are desc=
ribing here is SRMS advertisements and there is no problem in handling SRMS=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">advertisements. There is =
a special indication in the protocol messages to indicate it is an SRMS adv=
ertisement<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">and it is documented in I=
SIS and OSPF drafts in detail, how to handle the scenario.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">You are suggesting to use=
 the same procedures to handle the case of anycast-SIDs where prefix advert=
isements aren&#8217;t<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">accompanied by a SID adve=
rtisements for some of the prefixes.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This procedure does work =
for anycast-SIDs and I suggest you to add the text to the<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">draft to standardize. I b=
elieve conflict resolution draft is the best place to add it.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Below is my suggested tex=
t for the draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&#8220;Section 3.2.3 Anyc=
ast SIDs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">[SR-ARCH] defines anycast=
 SIDs which is used for a number of use-cases.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">When there are multiple n=
odes which advertise same anycast prefix, it is possible that<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">one of the nodes does not=
 advertise a SID for the prefix. This discrepancy<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">is not detected by the co=
nflict resolution procedure as the conflict resolution database<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">takes the prefix-SID mapp=
ings as input and this particular&nbsp; case does not have<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">prefix-SID mapping.<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The forwarding plane foll=
ows IP routing and so nodes in the network MAY point to a<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">node which does not adver=
tise a SID. This situation is similar to an SRMS advertisement<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">where prefix reachability=
 advertisements from a node does not include a SID advertisement for the pr=
efix.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The route programming for=
 such anycast SIDs should follow the PHP procedures as described in,<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">[SR-ISIS] and [SR-OSPF] f=
or an SRMS advertisement.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-=
size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Les Gi=
nsberg (ginsberg) [<a href=3D"mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com">mailto:ginsberg@ci=
sco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 5, 2017 12:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Shraddha Hegde &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net">shrad=
dha@juniper.net</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org">draft-iet=
f-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Shraddha &#8211;<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I say again &#8211; there=
 is no conflict and there is no config error.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Let&#8217;s use another e=
xample which does NOT involve anycast.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; --------------A (1.1.1.1)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp; /<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">G-----------------B (1.1.=
1.2)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp; \<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
----------------C(1.1.1.3)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">NO SIDS are locally confi=
gured on any routers because the operator has chosen to use SRMS as a globa=
l provisioning tool.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Therefore none of the pre=
fix reachability advertisements include a SID.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">SRMS (say advertised by s=
ome node &#8220;F&#8221; ) advertises the following:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">1.1.1.1/32 100 range 3<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">SRMS advertisements do no=
t support P/E flags.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">When G forwards the follo=
wing packets it has to make a decision as to whether to do PHP, UHP, EXPLIC=
IT_NULL:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.5in"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color=
:#1F497D">1.1.1.1</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">to A<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.5in"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color=
:#1F497D">1.1.1.2</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">to B<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.5in"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color=
:#1F497D">1.1.1.3</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">to C<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But there is no advertise=
ment of P/E for any of the destinations. It must follow a default behavior.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If you think there is a p=
roblem here, please clearly state what it is and what you think should be d=
one about it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But whatever you think it=
 might be, this has nothing to do with SID conflict resolution &#8211; whic=
h is defining a way to resolve advertised Prefix Conflicts/SID
 Conflicts as defined in Section 3.2 of the draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp; Les<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Shraddha=
 Hegde [<a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net">mailto:shraddha@juniper.net=
</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 04, 2017 10:02 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Les Ginsberg (ginsberg); <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-con=
flict-resolution@ietf.org">
draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Les,<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The issues we are discuss=
ing here are specific to Segment Routing and SPRING is the right<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">WG to address this. The p=
roblem here is not about standardizing what is the default<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">PHP behavior, it is about=
 the scenarios when this default behavior assumption need to be applied.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The problem doesn&#8217;t=
 get solved by applying default PHP behavior in all cases.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Assume 1.1.1.1 in the exa=
mple below is a redistributed prefix from another ISIS Level. In that<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">case&nbsp; the pop and fo=
rward will cause the service labels to get exposed at A which<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">would cause black-holing =
or misrouting.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">These are issues caused b=
y config errors and IMO conflict resolution draft is the right place<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">to describe these cases a=
nd the solutions so that all vendors have consistent behaviours.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-=
size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Les Gi=
nsberg (ginsberg) [<a href=3D"mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com">mailto:ginsberg@ci=
sco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 5, 2017 12:05 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Shraddha Hegde &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net">shrad=
dha@juniper.net</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org">draft-iet=
f-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Shraddha &#8211;<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">First, there is no SID co=
nflict here. There is therefore nothing for the conflict resolution draft t=
o discuss.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Let&#8217;s look at your =
scenario more detail. To do so let&#8217;s use the following simple topolog=
y:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; --------------A<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;/<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">G-----------------B<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp; \<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
----------------C<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Using your example w addi=
tion of P/E flag settings in prefix-sid advertisement (using IS-IS naming c=
onvention).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">For simplicity assume all=
 nodes have the default SRGB (16000 &#8211; 23999).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">1.prefix 1.1.1.1 advertis=
ed from node A with no SID<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">2.Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertis=
ed from node B with SID 10&nbsp; P flag =3D 0 E flag =3D 0
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">3. Prefix 1.1.1.1 adverti=
sed from node C with SID 10 P flag =3D 1 &nbsp;E flag =3D 0<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Using procedures defined =
in draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution all nodes in the network will use =
SID 10 when forwarding traffic to 1.1.1.1. The question
 is what should the penultimate next hop router do when forwarding a packet=
 to each of the owning nodes?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">When G forwards the packe=
t to B, PHP is indicated, so G will POP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">When G forwards the packe=
t to C, UHP is indicated and E flag is 0, so G will send the packet with ou=
tgoing label 16010.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">When G forwards the packe=
t to A, because A has not advertised the prefix-SID (but is SR capable) we =
do not know whether it wants PHP or not &#8211; so we have to
 make an assumption.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Default MPLS behavior is =
to assume PHP.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If A does not want PHP th=
en it would have to advertise the prefix SID so it could specify desired be=
havior using P/E flags.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Note that this same situa=
tion can occur if the mapping server is used as a global provisioning tool.=
 In such a case no prefix-SIDs need be advertised in prefix
 reachability advertisements &#8211; all SIDs are advertised by SRMS advert=
isements which do not include P/E flags.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Historically, &nbsp;MPLS =
implementations have chosen a default behavior (equivalent to P and E flags=
 =3D 0). Some implementations provide knobs to override this behavior.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If your concern is that t=
here is not an explicit definition of default PHP/Explicit NULL behavior, t=
hen I think this needs to be directed at the MPLS WG. I
 do not claim to be an MPLS expert, but I have found these references:<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">RFC 3036 Section 6<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&#8220;-&nbsp; Section 2.=
16 of the MPLS architecture [RFC3031] requires that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the initial label distribution protocol negotiation=
 between<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; peer LSRs enable each LSR to determine whether its =
peer is<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; capable of popping the label stack.&nbsp; This vers=
ion of LDP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; assumes that LSRs support label popping for all lin=
k types<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; except ATM and Frame Relay.&nbsp; A future version =
may specify means<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to make this determination part of the session init=
iation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; negotiation.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp; Les<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Shraddha=
 Hegde [</span><a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">mailto:s=
hraddha@juniper.net</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 03, 2017 10:16 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Les Ginsberg (ginsberg); </span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spr=
ing-conflict-resolution@ietf.org"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">draft-ietf-spring-conflict-re=
solution@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">spring@iet=
f.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&qu=
ot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Les,<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">From what you describe in=
 section 3.3.8, all the SIDs attached to prefixes are fed into the database=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The example I am talking =
about,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">1.prefix 1.1.1.1 advertis=
ed from node A with no SID<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">2.Prefix 1.1.1.1 advertis=
ed from node B with SID 10<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">3. Prefix 1.1.1.1 adverti=
sed from node C with SID 10<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The advertisements 2 and =
3 are fed into the mapping database and 1 isn&#8217;t.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The conflict resolution d=
oes not detect any conflict with the above advertisements and<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">For prefix 1.1.1.1 /SID 1=
0 is chosen.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">All this is fine but the =
problem is in programming the forwarding plane.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Lets say for a certain no=
de E in the network node A is the nexthop for 1.1.1.1.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">How would node E program =
its forwarding plane?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Node E should recognize t=
he conflict between node A, Node B and C and program the<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">SID 10 with a pop and for=
ward instead of looking into the P and E flags of the SID 10?<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This is good enough detai=
l, that should be explained in the draft instead of leaving it to the<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Imagination of implemente=
rs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-=
size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Les Gi=
nsberg (ginsberg) [</span><a href=3D"mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com"><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;=
">mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 3, 2017 11:47 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Shraddha Hegde &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net=
"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;san=
s-serif&quot;">shraddha@juniper.net</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&gt;;
</span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org</span></a><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">spring@ie=
tf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&=
quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Shraddha &#8211;<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There is a misunderstandi=
ng on your part. It would be good if you read Section 3.3.8.&nbsp; Guarante=
eing Database Consistency again.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">In short, it does not mat=
ter whether you do or do not advertise a prefix SID for a prefix which you =
own. What matters is that all routers populate the mapping
 entry database consistent w Section 3.3.8 and that each router applies the=
 conflict resolution rules in a consistent manner. Then all routers will be=
 using the same prefix/SID pair in forwarding.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp; Les<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Shraddha=
 Hegde [</span><a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">mailto:s=
hraddha@juniper.net</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 03, 2017 9:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@i=
etf.org"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;">draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org</span><=
/a><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;san=
s-serif&quot;"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">spring@iet=
f.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&qu=
ot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi Authors,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">When there are multiple anycast IP addr=
esses assigned to different nodes and one or more nodes<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">do not advertise a Prefix SID for that =
anycast address but other nodes advertise a prefix-sid, there is a possibil=
ity<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">of different implementations behaving d=
ifferently with respect to programming the labelled routes.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">This scenario should be considered as a=
 prefix conflict and the behavior should be addressed in the draft.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I suggest to update section 3.2.1 with =
the relevant text to describe the behavior.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2017 20:33:08 -0700
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Dear All,
perhaps this new draft may is of interest to you.
Your comments, suggestions are most welcome and greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Greg

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, May 8, 2017 at 8:29 PM
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt
To: Gregory Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>



A new version of I-D, draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:           draft-mirsky-spring-bfd
Revision:       00
Title:          Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD) in Segment Routing
Networks Using MPLS Dataplane
Document date:  2017-05-08
Group:          Individual Submission
Pages:          7
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd
-00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-mirsky-spring-b
fd-00


Abstract:
   Segment Routing architecture leverages the paradigm of source
   routing.  It can be realized in the Multiprotocol Label Switching
   (MPLS) network without any change to the data plane.  A segment is
   encoded as an MPLS label and an ordered list of segments is encoded
   as a stack of labels.  Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD) is
   expected to monitor any kind of paths between systems.  This document
   defines how to use Label Switched Path Ping to bootstrap and control
   path in reverse direction of a BFD session on the Segment Routing
   network over MPLS dataplane.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear All,<div>perhaps this new draft may is of interest to=
 you.</div><div>Your comments, suggestions are most welcome and greatly app=
reciated.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><div><br><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: <=
b class=3D"gmail_sendername"></b> <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:i=
nternet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt;=
</span><br>Date: Mon, May 8, 2017 at 8:29 PM<br>Subject: New Version Notifi=
cation for draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt<br>To: Gregory Mirsky &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;<br><br><br><br>
A new version of I-D, draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt<br>
has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the<br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-mirsky-spring-bfd<br>
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000<br>
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bidirectional Forwarding Detection=
 (BFD) in Segment Routing Networks Using MPLS Dataplane<br>
Document date:=C2=A0 2017-05-08<br>
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission<br>
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 7<br>
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/internet-drafts/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt" rel=3D"noreferrer" targe=
t=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/internet-<wbr>drafts/draft-mirsky-spring-=
bfd<wbr>-00.txt</a><br>
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd/</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://to=
ols.ietf.org/html/d<wbr>raft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">=
https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/html/draft-mirsky-spring-b<wbr>fd-00<=
/a><br>
<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Segment Routing architecture leverages the paradigm of source<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0routing.=C2=A0 It can be realized in the Multiprotocol Label S=
witching<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(MPLS) network without any change to the data plane.=C2=A0 A s=
egment is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0encoded as an MPLS label and an ordered list of segments is en=
coded<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0as a stack of labels.=C2=A0 Bidirectional Forwarding Detection=
 (BFD) is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0expected to monitor any kind of paths between systems.=C2=A0 T=
his document<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0defines how to use Label Switched Path Ping to bootstrap and c=
ontrol<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0path in reverse direction of a BFD session on the Segment Rout=
ing<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0network over MPLS dataplane.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
The IETF Secretariat<br>
<br>
</div><br></div></div>

--001a113ccb38b506f3054f0f0318--


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Hi,

Can you point me to any SRv6 document mandating that such mapping MUST be
done in a routing protocol ?

Thx,
R.


On May 9, 2017 05:16, "Xuxiaohu" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:

Hi Robert,



Except the function indicated by all zeros, it does require mappings
between functions, function indications and locators. Take tenant network
function as an exampleJ



Best regards,

Xiaohu



*=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] *=E4=
=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 *Robert Raszuk
*=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:* 2017=E5=B9=B45=E6=9C=888=E6=97=A5 2=
0:13
*=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* Stewart Bryant
*=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81:* spring@ietf.org; IETF Discussion; gen-art@ietf.org;
draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases.all@ietf.org; stefano previdi; Alvaro
Retana (aretana)
*=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:* Re: [spring] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-sp=
ring-ipv6-use-
cases-10





Hi Stewart,



> =E2=80=8B

Yes, but those are required anyway to support SRv6



That is incorrect.



Please watch Les's presentation during last IETF where he clearly and
correctly stated that IGP extensions for SRv6 are optional and not required
(unlike in the case of SR-MPLS where such signalling of global labels is
indeed necessary to build "global labels" based forwarding).



As a matter of fact I knew this will generate confusion in IETF and
recommended to make it very clear in the drafts. Distribution of SID
functions does not need to be carried in routing protocols. And SRv6 SID
locator function is native to IPv6 routing hence no extensions needed. Sure
they can be carried in IGPs or BGP but this is just an option not
necessity.



Best,

Robert.







On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 12:15 PM, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
wrote:



On 05/05/2017 11:17, Robert Raszuk wrote:

And to add one observation ..

Stewart makes a point that SR-MPLS can be deployed without mpls control
plane.

Well it sure does not require LDP however IGP or BGP extensions for SR-MPLS
signalling is also an example of mpls control plane ... even if much
simpler than traditional cases it is still required.



=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B

Yes, but those are required anyway to support SRv6. You always have to
provide the mapping between the function, the function identifier and the
function location.

- Stewart



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<div dir=3D"auto"><div>Hi,<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Can=
 you point me to any SRv6 document mandating that such mapping MUST be done=
 in a routing protocol ?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
>Thx,</div><div dir=3D"auto">R.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote">On May 9, 2017 05:16, &quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br ty=
pe=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-6070289715234172439WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:16.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Hi Robert,=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:16.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:16.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Except the=
 function indicated by all zeros, it does require mappings between function=
s, function indications and locators. Take tenant network
 function as an example</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:16.0p=
t;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1f497d">J</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size:16.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;=
;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:16.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:16.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Best regar=
ds,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:16.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Xiaohu<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:16.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=
=B6=E4=BA=BA<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt"> spring [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>]
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 </span></b><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Robert Raszuk<br>
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=
=97=B4<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D=
"font-size:10.0pt"> 2017</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=E5=B9=B4<s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US">5</span>=E6=9C=88<span lang=3D"EN-US">8</span>=E6=97=A5<=
span lang=3D"EN-US"> 20:13<br>
</span><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"> Stewart Bryant<br>
</span><b>=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.or=
g</a>; IETF Discussion; <a href=3D"mailto:gen-art@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">gen-art@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases=
.all@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-<wbr>cases.all@=
ietf.org</a>; stefano previdi; Alvaro Retana (aretana)<br>
</span><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"> Re: [spring] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-=
<wbr>cases-10<u></u><u></u></span></span></p>
</div>
</div><div class=3D"elided-text">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi Stewart,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&gt; =E2=80=8B<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Yes, but those are required anyway to suppo=
rt SRv6<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">That is incorrect.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Please watch Les&#39;s presentation during =
last IETF where he clearly and correctly stated that IGP extensions for SRv=
6 are optional and not required (unlike in the case of SR-MPLS
 where such signalling of global labels is indeed necessary to build &quot;=
global labels&quot; based forwarding).=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">As a matter of fact I knew this will genera=
te confusion in IETF and recommended to make it very clear in the drafts. D=
istribution of SID functions does not need to be carried in
 routing protocols. And SRv6 SID locator function is native to IPv6 routing=
 hence no extensions needed. Sure they can be carried in IGPs or BGP but th=
is is just an option not necessity.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Robert.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 12:15 PM=
, Stewart Bryant &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" target=3D"=
_blank">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
<br>
<span class=3D"m_-6070289715234172439gmail-">On 05/05/2017 11:17, Robert Ra=
szuk wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">And to add one observation ..<b=
r>
<br>
Stewart makes a point that SR-MPLS can be deployed without mpls control pla=
ne.<br>
<br>
Well it sure does not require LDP however IGP or BGP extensions for SR-MPLS=
 signalling is also an example of mpls control plane ... even if much simpl=
er than traditional cases it is still required.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
Yes, but those are required anyway to support SRv6. You always have to prov=
ide the mapping between the function, the function identifier and the funct=
ion location.<span style=3D"color:#888888"><br>
<br>
<span class=3D"m_-6070289715234172439gmail-hoenzb">- Stewart</span></span><=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div>
</div>
</div>

<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/spring</a><br=
>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

--94eb2c0c85e49ee560054f0faeb2--


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From: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: stefano previdi <sprevidi@cisco.com>, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" <aretana@cisco.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases.all@ietf.org>, "gen-art@ietf.org" <gen-art@ietf.org>, IETF Discussion <ietf@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 08:02:24 +0200
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To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
Cc: stefano previdi <sprevidi@cisco.com>, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>,  "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" <aretana@cisco.com>,  "draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases.all@ietf.org>,  "gen-art@ietf.org" <gen-art@ietf.org>, IETF Discussion <ietf@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
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Xiaohu,

Mapping can be also well known .. for example from the RFC clearly defining
the functions. That clearly removes the need of *any* control plane to
dynamically carry the values.

Cheers,
R.

On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 7:06 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:

> Nobody said that such mapping must be distributed in a routing protocolJ
> We just said that such mapping is always required no matter we use an MPL=
S
> label as function instruction or using the latter part of an IPv6 address
> as function instruction.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Xiaohu
>
>
>
>
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* rraszuk@gmail.com [mailto:rraszuk@gmail.co=
m] *=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 *Robert Raszuk
> *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:* 2017=E5=B9=B45=E6=9C=889=E6=97=A5=
 12:21
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* Xuxiaohu
> *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81:* stefano previdi; Stewart Bryant; Alvaro Retana (are=
tana);
> draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases.all@ietf.org; gen-art@ietf.org; IETF
> Discussion; spring@ietf.org
> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:* Re: [spring] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Genart last call r=
eview of
> draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases-10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Can you point me to any SRv6 document mandating that such mapping MUST be
> done in a routing protocol ?
>
>
>
> Thx,
>
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
> On May 9, 2017 05:16, "Xuxiaohu" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Robert,
>
>
>
> Except the function indicated by all zeros, it does require mappings
> between functions, function indications and locators. Take tenant network
> function as an exampleJ
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Xiaohu
>
>
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] *=
=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 *Robert Raszuk
> *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:* 2017=E5=B9=B45=E6=9C=888=E6=97=A5=
 20:13
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* Stewart Bryant
> *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81:* spring@ietf.org; IETF Discussion; gen-art@ietf.org;
> draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases.all@ietf.org; stefano previdi; Alvaro
> Retana (aretana)
> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:* Re: [spring] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-=
spring-ipv6-use-
> cases-10
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Stewart,
>
>
>
> > =E2=80=8B
>
> Yes, but those are required anyway to support SRv6
>
>
>
> That is incorrect.
>
>
>
> Please watch Les's presentation during last IETF where he clearly and
> correctly stated that IGP extensions for SRv6 are optional and not requir=
ed
> (unlike in the case of SR-MPLS where such signalling of global labels is
> indeed necessary to build "global labels" based forwarding).
>
>
>
> As a matter of fact I knew this will generate confusion in IETF and
> recommended to make it very clear in the drafts. Distribution of SID
> functions does not need to be carried in routing protocols. And SRv6 SID
> locator function is native to IPv6 routing hence no extensions needed. Su=
re
> they can be carried in IGPs or BGP but this is just an option not
> necessity.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Robert.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 12:15 PM, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com=
>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 05/05/2017 11:17, Robert Raszuk wrote:
>
> And to add one observation ..
>
> Stewart makes a point that SR-MPLS can be deployed without mpls control
> plane.
>
> Well it sure does not require LDP however IGP or BGP extensions for
> SR-MPLS signalling is also an example of mpls control plane ... even if
> much simpler than traditional cases it is still required.
>
>
>
> =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
>
> Yes, but those are required anyway to support SRv6. You always have to
> provide the mapping between the function, the function identifier and the
> function location.
>
> - Stewart
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>
>
>

--001a114043b087ec9c054f1119e3
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Xiaohu,</div><div class=3D"gmail_defaul=
t" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;font-size:small">Mapping can be also well known .. for example from th=
e RFC clearly defining the functions. That clearly removes the need of *any=
* control plane to dynamically carry the values.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"g=
mail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:sma=
ll"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Cheers,<br>R.</div></div><div class=3D"gma=
il_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 7:06 AM, Xu=
xiaohu <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=
=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_7291623561399760046WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:16.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Nobody sai=
d that such mapping must be distributed in a routing protocol</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:16.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1f497d=
">J</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:16.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0
 We just said that such mapping is always required no matter we use an MPLS=
 label as function instruction or using the latter part of an IPv6 address =
as function instruction.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:16.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:16.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Best regar=
ds,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:16.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Xiaohu<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:16.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:16.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=
=B6=E4=BA=BA<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt"> <a href=3D"mailto:rraszuk@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">rraszuk@gmail.com</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rraszuk@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">rraszuk@gmail.com</a>]
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 </span></b><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Robert Raszuk<br>
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=
=97=B4<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D=
"font-size:10.0pt"> 2017</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=E5=B9=B4<s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US">5</span>=E6=9C=88<span lang=3D"EN-US">9</span>=E6=97=A5<=
span lang=3D"EN-US"> 12:21<br>
</span><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"> Xuxiaohu<br>
</span><b>=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"> stefano previdi; Stewart Bryant; Alvaro Retana (aretana); <a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases.all@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-<wbr>cases.all@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:=
gen-art@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">gen-art@ietf.org</a>; IETF Discussion; =
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br=
>
</span><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"> Re: [spring] </span>
=E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D<span lang=3D"EN-US">: Genart last call review of draft-i=
etf-spring-ipv6-use-<wbr>cases-10<u></u><u></u></span></span></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Can you point me to any SRv6 do=
cument mandating that such mapping MUST be done in a routing protocol ?<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thx,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">R.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On May 9, 2017 05:16, &quot;Xux=
iaohu&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xu=
xiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:16.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Hi Robert,=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:16.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:16.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Except the=
 function indicated by all zeros, it does require mappings between function=
s,
 function indications and locators. Take tenant network function as an exam=
ple</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:16.0pt;font-family:Wingdi=
ngs;color:#1f497d">J</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:16.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:16.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Best regar=
ds,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:16.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Xiaohu</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:16.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=
=B6=E4=BA=BA<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt"> spring [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>]
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 </span></b><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Robert Raszuk<br>
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=
=97=B4<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D=
"font-size:10.0pt"> 2017</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=E5=B9=B4<s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US">5</span>=E6=9C=88<span lang=3D"EN-US">8</span>=E6=97=A5<=
span lang=3D"EN-US"> 20:13<br>
</span><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"> Stewart Bryant<br>
</span><b>=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
spring@ietf.org</a>; IETF Discussion; <a href=3D"mailto:gen-art@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">
gen-art@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases.al=
l@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-<wbr>cases.all@ietf.org</a>; stefano previdi; Al=
varo Retana (aretana)<br>
</span><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"> Re: [spring] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-=
<wbr>cases-10</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi Stewart,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&gt; =E2=80=8B</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Yes, but those are required anyway to suppo=
rt SRv6</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">That is incorrect.=C2=A0</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Please watch Les&#39;s presentation during =
last IETF where he clearly and correctly stated that IGP extensions for SRv=
6 are
 optional and not required (unlike in the case of SR-MPLS where such signal=
ling of global labels is indeed necessary to build &quot;global labels&quot=
; based forwarding).=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">As a matter of fact I knew this will genera=
te confusion in IETF and recommended to make it very clear in the drafts.
 Distribution of SID functions does not need to be carried in routing proto=
cols. And SRv6 SID locator function is native to IPv6 routing hence no exte=
nsions needed. Sure they can be carried in IGPs or BGP but this is just an =
option not necessity.=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Best,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Robert.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 12:15 PM=
, Stewart Bryant &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" target=3D"=
_blank">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
<br>
<span class=3D"m_7291623561399760046m-6070289715234172439gmail-">On 05/05/2=
017 11:17, Robert Raszuk wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">And to add one observation ..<b=
r>
<br>
Stewart makes a point that SR-MPLS can be deployed without mpls control pla=
ne.<br>
<br>
Well it sure does not require LDP however IGP or BGP extensions for SR-MPLS=
 signalling is also an example of mpls control plane ... even if much simpl=
er than traditional cases it is still required.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
Yes, but those are required anyway to support SRv6. You always have to prov=
ide the mapping between the function, the function identifier and the funct=
ion location.<span style=3D"color:#888888"><br>
<br>
<span class=3D"m_7291623561399760046m-6070289715234172439gmail-hoenzb">- St=
ewart</span></span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/spring</a><u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a114043b087ec9c054f1119e3--


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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] New Version Notification for draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt
Thread-Index: AQHSyNwkwOl2lp11iEyR0ciJiuUUKQ==
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 15:51:38 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] New Version Notification for draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 09:00:22 -0700
Message-ID: <CA+RyBmXgfmL7+Bx-KxFcm=3tTtsCALmRhrhyX=uqF8kuDFw2nw@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
Cc: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/yGG59vJSOgNw4ObK8P8_FEwctnU>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] New Version Notification for draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt
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Dear Carlos,
I've decided to re-start the discussion and am interested to hear technical
comments to the proposed solution.

Regards,
Greg

On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 8:51 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:

> Dear Greg,
>
> Cursorily scanning through this, it seems that most concerns raised and
> comments made about the SR sections of draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed-0N
> (with N < 5) apply to your new draft.
>
> This is one of those: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/mpls/current/
> msg15860.html =E2=80=94 the list archive shows a few more. The copy/paste=
 did not
> address the comments.
>
> Best,
>
> =E2=80=94 Carlos.
>
> On May 8, 2017, at 11:33 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear All,
> perhaps this new draft may is of interest to you.
> Your comments, suggestions are most welcome and greatly appreciated.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
> Date: Mon, May 8, 2017 at 8:29 PM
> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt
> To: Gregory Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:           draft-mirsky-spring-bfd
> Revision:       00
> Title:          Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD) in Segment
> Routing Networks Using MPLS Dataplane
> Document date:  2017-05-08
> Group:          Individual Submission
> Pages:          7
> URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-
> drafts/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt
> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd/
> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00
> Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/
> doc/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00
>
>
> Abstract:
>    Segment Routing architecture leverages the paradigm of source
>    routing.  It can be realized in the Multiprotocol Label Switching
>    (MPLS) network without any change to the data plane.  A segment is
>    encoded as an MPLS label and an ordered list of segments is encoded
>    as a stack of labels.  Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD) is
>    expected to monitor any kind of paths between systems.  This document
>    defines how to use Label Switched Path Ping to bootstrap and control
>    path in reverse direction of a BFD session on the Segment Routing
>    network over MPLS dataplane.
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
>
>

--001a113d3ccc0918cc054f1974f7
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear Carlos,<div>I&#39;ve decided to re-start the discussi=
on and am interested to hear technical comments to the proposed solution.=
=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 8:=
51 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">cpignata@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wro=
te:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
Dear Greg,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cursorily scanning through this, it seems that most concerns raised an=
d comments made about the SR sections of=C2=A0draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-<wbr>dire=
cted-0N (with N &lt; 5) apply to your new draft.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is one of those:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archiv=
e/web/mpls/current/msg15860.html" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/<w=
br>mail-archive/web/mpls/current/<wbr>msg15860.html</a> =E2=80=94 the list =
archive shows a few more. The copy/paste did not address
 the comments.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=E2=80=94 Carlos.</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>On May 8, 2017, at 11:33 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimi=
rsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div=
>
<br class=3D"m_4187817155334607817Apple-interchange-newline">
</div></div><div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear All,
<div>perhaps this new draft may is of interest to you.</div>
<div>Your comments, suggestions are most welcome and greatly appreciated.</=
div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Greg</div>
<div><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"></b><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">internet-drafts@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;</span><br>
Date: Mon, May 8, 2017 at 8:29 PM<br>
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt<br>
To: Gregory Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_=
blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
A new version of I-D, draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt<br>
has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the<br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-mirsky-spring-bfd<br>
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000<br>
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bidirectional Forwarding Detection=
 (BFD) in Segment Routing Networks Using MPLS Dataplane<br>
Document date:=C2=A0 2017-05-08<br>
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission<br>
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 7<br>
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/internet-drafts/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt" rel=3D"noreferrer" targe=
t=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-<wbr>drafts/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd<wbr>-00.t=
xt</a><br>
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd/</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://to=
ols.ietf.org/html/d<wbr>raft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">=
https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/html/draft-mirsky-spring-b<wbr>fd-00<=
/a><br>
<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Segment Routing architecture leverages the paradigm of source<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0routing.=C2=A0 It can be realized in the Multiprotocol Label S=
witching<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(MPLS) network without any change to the data plane.=C2=A0 A s=
egment is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0encoded as an MPLS label and an ordered list of segments is en=
coded<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0as a stack of labels.=C2=A0 Bidirectional Forwarding Detection=
 (BFD) is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0expected to monitor any kind of paths between systems.=C2=A0 T=
his document<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0defines how to use Label Switched Path Ping to bootstrap and c=
ontrol<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0path in reverse direction of a BFD session on the Segment Rout=
ing<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0network over MPLS dataplane.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">
tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
The IETF Secretariat<br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div></div></div>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a113d3ccc0918cc054f1974f7--


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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] New Version Notification for draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt
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Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 16:07:22 +0000
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 12:43:54 -0700
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To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
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Hi Carlos,
I probably would characterize anything that starts with Why not as a
technical comment but rather as a question.
According to draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls, "In the MPLS dataplane=
,the
SR header is instantiated through a label stack".
At the same time, one of advantages of SR is that "per-flow state only
[maintained] at the ingress node to the SR domain".
Thus, for the case of monitoring unidirectional SR tunnels, I consider that
there's no need to create any additional state on the egress node.
Of course, if there were bidirectional SR tunnels, then control of the
reverse direction of the BFD session would not require use of the Return
Path sub-TLV.
As for LSP-Ping, I just propose that the Segment Routing MPLS Tunnel
sub-TLV MAY be used Reply Path TLV defined in RFC 7110. I viewed the
proposal as invitation to technical discussion.

Regards,
Greg

On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 9:07 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:

> Thank you Greg!
>
> Since https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00 seems quite
> similar to the text removed at https://tools.ietf.org/
> rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed-05.txt, then the complete set
> of outstanding technical comments that triggered the removal of that text
> from draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed-05.txt might peek your interest :-)
>
> One that I recall is: why use label values when every other return-path
> sub-TLV for BFD and for LSP-Ping, including draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed,
> uses TFSs?
>
> Best,
>
> =E2=80=94 Carlos.
>
> On May 9, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Carlos,
> I've decided to re-start the discussion and am interested to hear
> technical comments to the proposed solution.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 8:51 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
> cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear Greg,
>>
>> Cursorily scanning through this, it seems that most concerns raised and
>> comments made about the SR sections of draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed-0N
>> (with N < 5) apply to your new draft.
>>
>> This is one of those: https://www.ietf.org/ma
>> il-archive/web/mpls/current/msg15860.html =E2=80=94 the list archive sho=
ws a few
>> more. The copy/paste did not address the comments.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> =E2=80=94 Carlos.
>>
>> On May 8, 2017, at 11:33 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear All,
>> perhaps this new draft may is of interest to you.
>> Your comments, suggestions are most welcome and greatly appreciated.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Greg
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
>> Date: Mon, May 8, 2017 at 8:29 PM
>> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt
>> To: Gregory Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>
>> A new version of I-D, draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt
>> has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the
>> IETF repository.
>>
>> Name:           draft-mirsky-spring-bfd
>> Revision:       00
>> Title:          Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD) in Segment
>> Routing Networks Using MPLS Dataplane
>> Document date:  2017-05-08
>> Group:          Individual Submission
>> Pages:          7
>> URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-
>> drafts/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt
>> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd=
/
>> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00
>> Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/
>> doc/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00
>>
>>
>> Abstract:
>>    Segment Routing architecture leverages the paradigm of source
>>    routing.  It can be realized in the Multiprotocol Label Switching
>>    (MPLS) network without any change to the data plane.  A segment is
>>    encoded as an MPLS label and an ordered list of segments is encoded
>>    as a stack of labels.  Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD) is
>>    expected to monitor any kind of paths between systems.  This document
>>    defines how to use Label Switched Path Ping to bootstrap and control
>>    path in reverse direction of a BFD session on the Segment Routing
>>    network over MPLS dataplane.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
>> submission
>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>>
>> The IETF Secretariat
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mpls mailing list
>> mpls@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>>
>>
>>
>
>

--001a1134fbb470c137054f1c9329
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Carlos,<div>I probably would characterize anything that=
 starts with Why not as a technical comment but rather as a question.</div>=
<div>According to=C2=A0<font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span st=
yle=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);color:rgb(0,0,0)">d</span><span st=
yle=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);color:rgb(0,0,0)">raft-ietf-spring=
-segment-routing-mpls, &quot;</span><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255=
,253,245);color:rgb(0,0,0)">In the MPLS=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"backgrou=
nd-color:rgb(255,253,245);color:rgb(0,0,0)">dataplane,</span><span style=3D=
"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);color:rgb(0,0,0)">the SR header is insta=
ntiated through a label stack&quot;.</span></font></div><div><font face=3D"=
arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,2=
45);color:rgb(0,0,0)">At the same time, one of advantages of SR is that &qu=
ot;</span><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);color:rgb(0,0,0)=
;font-size:14px">per-flow state only [maintained] at the ingress node to th=
e SR=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);color:rgb=
(0,0,0);font-size:14px">domain&quot;.</span></font></div><div><font face=3D=
"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,=
245);color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14px">Thus, for the case of monitoring unid=
irectional SR tunnels, I consider that there&#39;s no need to create any ad=
ditional state on the egress node.</span></font></div><div><font face=3D"ar=
ial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245=
);color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14px">Of course, if there were bidirectional S=
R tunnels, then control of the reverse direction of the BFD session would n=
ot require use of the Return Path sub-TLV.</span></font></div><div><font fa=
ce=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255=
,253,245);color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14px">As for LSP-Ping, I just propose =
that the Segment Routing MPLS Tunnel sub-TLV MAY be used Reply Path TLV def=
ined in RFC 7110. I viewed the proposal as invitation to technical discussi=
on.</span></font></div><div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><sp=
an style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14=
px"><br></span></font></div><div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif=
"><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);color:rgb(0,0,0);font-si=
ze:14px">Regards,</span></font></div><div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, s=
ans-serif"><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);color:rgb(0,0,0=
);font-size:14px">Greg</span></font></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 9:07 AM, Carlos Pigna=
taro (cpignata) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">cpignata@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid=
;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
Thank you Greg!
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Since <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-0=
0" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00</a> seems quite=
 similar to the text removed at
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-mpls-bfd-direct=
ed-05.txt" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/<wbr>rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-mpls-<wbr>bfd-directe=
d-05.txt</a>, then the complete set of outstanding technical comments that =
triggered the removal of that text from draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed-<wbr>0=
5.txt might peek your interest :-)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>One that I recall is: why use label values when every other return-pat=
h sub-TLV for BFD and for LSP-Ping, including draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed,=
 uses TFSs?=C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=E2=80=94 Carlos.</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div><br>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On May 9, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimi=
rsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div=
>
<br class=3D"m_-4280274170038998902Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear Carlos,
<div>I&#39;ve decided to re-start the discussion and am interested to hear =
technical comments to the proposed solution.=C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Greg</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 8:51 AM, Carlos Pignataro=
 (cpignata)
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">cpignata@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Dear Greg,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cursorily scanning through this, it seems that most concerns raised an=
d comments made about the SR sections of=C2=A0draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directe<w=
br>d-0N (with N &lt; 5) apply to your new draft.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is one of those:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archiv=
e/web/mpls/current/msg15860.html" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
<wbr>il-archive/web/mpls/current/ms<wbr>g15860.html</a> =E2=80=94 the list =
archive shows
 a few more. The copy/paste did not address the comments.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=E2=80=94 Carlos.</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-4280274170038998902h5">
<div>On May 8, 2017, at 11:33 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimi=
rsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div=
>
<br class=3D"m_-4280274170038998902m_4187817155334607817Apple-interchange-n=
ewline">
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-4280274170038998902h5">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear All,
<div>perhaps this new draft may is of interest to you.</div>
<div>Your comments, suggestions are most welcome and greatly appreciated.</=
div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Greg</div>
<div><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"></b><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">internet-drafts@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;</span><br>
Date: Mon, May 8, 2017 at 8:29 PM<br>
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt<br>
To: Gregory Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_=
blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
A new version of I-D, draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt<br>
has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the<br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-mirsky-spring-bfd<br>
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000<br>
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bidirectional Forwarding Detection=
 (BFD) in Segment Routing Networks Using MPLS Dataplane<br>
Document date:=C2=A0 2017-05-08<br>
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission<br>
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 7<br>
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/internet-drafts/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt" rel=3D"noreferrer" targe=
t=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-<wbr>drafts/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd<wbr>-00.t=
xt</a><br>
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd/</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://to=
ols.ietf.org/html/d<wbr>raft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">=
https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/html/draft-mirsky-spring-b<wbr>fd-00<=
/a><br>
<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Segment Routing architecture leverages the paradigm of source<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0routing.=C2=A0 It can be realized in the Multiprotocol Label S=
witching<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(MPLS) network without any change to the data plane.=C2=A0 A s=
egment is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0encoded as an MPLS label and an ordered list of segments is en=
coded<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0as a stack of labels.=C2=A0 Bidirectional Forwarding Detection=
 (BFD) is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0expected to monitor any kind of paths between systems.=C2=A0 T=
his document<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0defines how to use Label Switched Path Ping to bootstrap and c=
ontrol<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0path in reverse direction of a BFD session on the Segment Rout=
ing<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0network over MPLS dataplane.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">
tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
The IETF Secretariat<br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/mpls</a><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a1134fbb470c137054f1c9329--


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On 5/4/2017 2:35 PM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote:

> When G forwards the packet to A, because A has not advertised the 
> prefix-SID (but is SR capable) we do not know whether it wants PHP or 
> not  so we have to make an assumption.
>
> Default MPLS behavior is to assume PHP.
>

I'm not sure why you think there is such a thing as "default MPLS 
behavior" in this regard.  In conventional MPLS, when a node advertises 
the binding of a label to a FEC, PHP will not occur unless the 
advertised label is Implicit NULL.   If you advertise a different label, 
you don't get PHP.

If there were any such thing as a default behavior for MPLS, it wouldn't 
make any sense for PHP to be the default behavior.   You can only 
advertise Implicit NULL if you know that the packet can be properly 
processed after the top label is popped off.  Whether PHP will give the 
right result is application-specific.  So if there were a default 
behavior, it would have to be "don't do PHP".  But of course MPLS has no 
need of such a default behavior, because each node advertises its own 
labels.

Since the segment routing architecture allows cases where you don't know 
whether the next hop wants you to pop the stack or not, segment routing 
needs to have a default, and the only sensible default is "don't do 
PHP".  This should be stated in whatever document discusses the use of 
the MPLS data plane for segment routing.  I don't see that there is any 
issue for the MPLS WG.

> If A does not want PHP then it would have to advertise the prefix SID 
> so it could specify desired behavior using P/E flags.
>

A default of "do PHP" doesn't seem sensible, as it may result in the 
exposure of a label at a node that cannot process it properly.

> Historically,  MPLS implementations have chosen a default behavior 
> (equivalent to P and E flags = 0). Some implementations provide knobs 
> to override this behavior.
>

I wonder if you're thinking about the case where the next hop has 
advertised Implicit NULL for a particular FEC, but the current hop 
actually uses Explicit NULL in order to have a place to put the TC 
field, which would otherwise be lost when PHP is done.  That doesn't 
really seem relevant to the issue that Shraddha raised.
>
> If your concern is that there is not an explicit definition of default 
> PHP/Explicit NULL behavior, then I think this needs to be directed at 
> the MPLS WG.
>

I think this is incorrect, as explained above.

> I do not claim to be an MPLS expert, but I have found these references:
>
> RFC 3036 Section 6
>
> - Section 2.16 of the MPLS architecture [RFC3031] requires that
>
> the initial label distribution protocol negotiation between
>
> peer LSRs enable each LSR to determine whether its peer is
>
> capable of popping the label stack.  This version of LDP
>
> assumes that LSRs support label popping for all link types
>
> except ATM and Frame Relay.  A future version may specify means
>
> to make this determination part of the session initiation
>
> negotiation.
>

Well, you don't have to be an MPLS expert to notice that RFC3036 was 
obsoleted ten years ago ;-)

In any event, the above quote is not relevant.  It simply says that when 
using LDP, an LSR may assume, for most data link types, that an LDP peer 
is capable of popping the top label off the stack.  Thus it is allowable 
to advertise to the peer a binding of Implicit NULL to a FEC.  This is 
an issue for LDP, but there is no way to apply the quoted passage to 
segment routing.

This really needs to be addressed in some SPRING draft or other.


--------------34C0B66DB9C4BB1A632C8D4A
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    On 5/4/2017 2:35 PM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote:<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:f4aa2dd9ce2c4df18f29471c57844f5f@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com"
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">When
        G forwards the packet to A, because A has not advertised the
        prefix-SID (but is SR capable) we do not know whether it wants
        PHP or not  so we have to make an assumption.<o:p></o:p></span>
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Default
            MPLS behavior is to assume PHP.
          </span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    I'm not sure why you think there is such a thing as "default MPLS
    behavior" in this regard. In conventional MPLS, when a node
    advertises the binding of a label to a FEC, PHP will not occur
    unless the advertised label is Implicit NULL. If you advertise a
    different label, you don't get PHP.<br>
    <br>
    If there were any such thing as a default behavior for MPLS, it
    wouldn't make any sense for PHP to be the default behavior. You
    can only advertise Implicit NULL if you know that the packet can be
    properly processed after the top label is popped off. Whether PHP
    will give the right result is application-specific. So if there
    were a default behavior, it would have to be "don't do PHP". But of
    course MPLS has no need of such a default behavior, because each
    node advertises its own labels.<br>
    <br>
    Since the segment routing architecture allows cases where you don't
    know whether the next hop wants you to pop the stack or not, segment
    routing needs to have a default, and the only sensible default is
    "don't do PHP". This should be stated in whatever document
    discusses the use of the MPLS data plane for segment routing. I
    don't see that there is any issue for the MPLS WG.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:f4aa2dd9ce2c4df18f29471c57844f5f@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If
            A does not want PHP then it would have to advertise the
            prefix SID so it could specify desired behavior using P/E
            flags.</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    A default of "do PHP" doesn't seem sensible, as it may result in the
    exposure of a label at a node that cannot process it properly. <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:f4aa2dd9ce2c4df18f29471c57844f5f@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
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        <span
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Historically,
            MPLS implementations have chosen a default behavior
            (equivalent to P and E flags = 0). Some implementations
            provide knobs to override this behavior.</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    I wonder if you're thinking about the case where the next hop has
    advertised Implicit NULL for a particular FEC, but the current hop
    actually uses Explicit NULL in order to have a place to put the TC
    field, which would otherwise be lost when PHP is done. That doesn't
    really seem relevant to the issue that Shraddha raised.<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:f4aa2dd9ce2c4df18f29471c57844f5f@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If
            your concern is that there is not an explicit definition of
            default PHP/Explicit NULL behavior, then I think this needs
            to be directed at the MPLS WG. </span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    I think this is incorrect, as explained above.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:f4aa2dd9ce2c4df18f29471c57844f5f@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I
            do not claim to be an MPLS expert, but I have found these
            references:</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:f4aa2dd9ce2c4df18f29471c57844f5f@XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">RFC
            3036 Section 6<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">-
            Section 2.16 of the MPLS architecture [RFC3031] requires
            that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">
            the initial label distribution protocol negotiation between<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">
            peer LSRs enable each LSR to determine whether its peer is<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">
            capable of popping the label stack. This version of LDP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">
            assumes that LSRs support label popping for all link types<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">
            except ATM and Frame Relay. A future version may specify
            means<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">
            to make this determination part of the session initiation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">
            negotiation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Well, you don't have to be an MPLS expert to notice that RFC3036 was
    obsoleted ten years ago ;-)<br>
    <br>
    In any event, the above quote is not relevant. It simply says that
    when using LDP, an LSR may assume, for most data link types, that an
    LDP peer is capable of popping the top label off the stack. Thus it
    is allowable to advertise to the peer a binding of Implicit NULL to
    a FEC. This is an issue for LDP, but there is no way to apply the
    quoted passage to segment routing.<br>
    <br>
    This really needs to be addressed in some SPRING draft or other.<br>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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Subject: [spring] Questions re Section 3 of draft-filsfils-...-policy-00
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I have a few questions/comments on Section 3 of 
draft-filsfils-spring-segment-routing-policy-00.  Mostly they are about 
text that is subject to different interpretatons, or about situations 
where the draft doesn't make it clear what to do. There are some 
substantive issues that really need clarification and/or further 
discussion.  For convenience, I've reproduced the Section 3 below, and 
have inserted my questions/comments in-line, beginning with "Eric> ".

----------------

3.  SR Policy

    An SR Policy is identified through the following tuple:

    o  The head-end where the policy is instantiated/implemented.
    o  The endpoint (i.e.: the destination of the policy).
    o  The color (an arbitrary numerical value).

    At a given head-end, an SR Policy is fully identified by the <color,
    endpoint> tuple.

    An endpoint can be specified as an IPv4 or IPv6 address.

    An SR Policy contain contains one or more candidate paths.

----------------

Eric> Perhaps: "An SR Policy is associated with one or more candidate paths"

----------------

    An SR Policy instantiates one single path in RIB/FIB: i.e. the
    selected path among the candidate paths.

----------------

Eric> I think it would be clearer to say "For each SR Policy, at most 
one candidate path is selected, and only the selected path is used for 
forwarding traffic that is being steered to that policy." (I'd avoid 
mentioning the FIB at all, since that will just raise questions about 
whether the FIB can have paths that aren't in the RIB.)

----------------

    A candidate path is either dynamic or explicit.

    A dynamic path expresses an optimization objective and a set of
    constraints.  The headend computes a solution to the optimization
    problem as a Segment Identifier (SID) list or a set of SID lists.
    When the headend does not have enough topological information (e.g.
    multi-domain problem), the headend may delegate the computation to a
    PCE.  Whenever the network situation changes, the path is recomputed.

----------------

Eric> Perhaps: "Whenever the solution to the optimization problem may 
have changed, the path is recomputed".

----------------

    An explicit path is a SID list or a set of SID lists.

    A candidate path has a preference.  If not specified, the default
    preference is 100.

    A candidate path is associated with a single Binding SID (BSID).

----------------

Eric> This seems to suggest that the mapping from a "candidate path" to 
a BSID is a one-one mapping.  However, I don't think that's correct.  
Two different SR policies might happen to be associated with identical 
candidate paths.  In that case, wouldn't one still want each policy to 
be associated with a distinct BSID?

Eric> Actually, I'd have thought that what is needed is that there be a 
one-one mapping in the control plane from BSID to SR Policy.  In the 
data plane, a BSID that maps to a given SR Policy maps to the selected 
path for that policy.

Eric> I think the draft needs to be modified to make it clear which 
interpretation (if either) is the correct one.

----------------

    A candidate path is valid if it is usable.  A common path validity
    criterion is the reachability of its constituent SIDs.  The
    validation rules are defined in a later section.

    A Path is selected (i.e. it is the best path of the policy) when it
    is valid and its preference is the best (highest value) among all the
    paths of the SR Policy.

----------------

Eric> Perhaps: "among all the candidate paths of the SR Policy".

----------------

    Whenever a new path is learned or the validity of an existing path
    changes or an existing path is changed, the selection process must be
    re-executed.

    A headend may be informed about a path for a policy <color, endpoint>

----------------

Eric> Perhaps: "about a path" --> "about a candidate path"

----------------

    by various means including: local configuration, NETCONF, PCEP or
    BGP.  The protocol source of the path does not matter to the path
    selection logic.

----------------

Eric> I find the last sentence to be very confusing, as the term "the 
path selection logic" is not clearly defined.

Eric> One can interpret the paragraph to mean the following: "For a 
given Policy, when comparing a candidate path learned via one means to a 
candidate path learned via another means, one path will be regarded as 
preferable to the other.  The determination of which path is the 
preferable one does not depend upon the means by which the path was 
learned."

Eric> That seems reasonable, though it might be good to add: "If two 
candidate paths are learned via different means, the choice between them 
is not to be based upon the 'administrative distance' or 'route 
preference' metrics that are typically used when comparing routes that 
are distributed by different routing protocols.  (If that's actually 
what is meant.)

Eric> But one could also interpret the paragraph to mean that when 
multiple candidate paths for a given Policy are distributed by BGP, that 
the BGP bestpath selection process is not applied. That interpretation 
would not be correct, and would in fact be in conflict with 
draft-previdi-idr-segment-routing-te-policy.  I'd like to see that 
clarified here.

Eric> (Draft-previdi also has some imprecise language about BGP being 
"just a conveyor".  That language should really be removed, as it is 
just a metaphor, and is subject to many different interpretations.)

Eric> When considering the BGP distribution of candidate paths for a 
Policy, there is a gray area that needs to be addressed.  In BGP, the 
policy <headend1, color1, endpoint1> would be represented as a route 
whose NLRI is <RD, color1, endpoint1> and that carries an RT that is an 
import RT of the headend.  It is possible that a given headend will 
import both <RD1, color1, endpoint1> and <RD2, color1, endpoint1>, where 
RD1 != RD2.  This is analogous to a familiar situation from L3VPN, where 
both <RD1, Prefix1> and <RD2, Prefix2> are imported into a given VRF.  
In this situation, L3VPN selects the bestpath by using the BGP Bestpath 
Selection procedure, but ignoring the fact that the RDs are different.

Eric> I have always assumed that the analogous procedure would be 
applied when comparing two BGP-distributed SR Policy "routes" wnose 
NLRIs differ only in their RDs. Some private conversations among vendors 
have indicated that this assumption is shared by others.  However, this 
is not stated clearly in either draft-previdi or draft-filsfils, and I 
have discovered recently that not everyone shares this assumption.  I've 
even heard people refer to the statement in draft-filsfils that "the 
protocol source of the path does not matter to the path selection logic" 
as "proof" that my assumption is incorrect.

Eric> So I'd like to see some text in one draft or the other that makes 
the intention very clear.  (Given such text, we might or might not want 
to argue about it further.)

----------------

    In the vast majority of use-cases known to date, a path is associated
    with a single SID list and each path of a policy has a different
    preference.

----------------

Eric> That's an interesting historical observation, but a protocol spec 
has to make it clear what needs to be done in the case where different 
candidate paths have the same preference.  Is the final selection left 
to the implementation, or is it desirable to have a tie breaking process 
that always makes it deterministic which of a set of candidate paths 
becomes the selected path for a given SR Policy?  The draft should 
specify one or the other of these options.

----------------

    The SID list of an SR Policy is the SID list of its selected path.

----------------

Eric> The above sentence is very confusing, as a path may consist of a 
set of SID lists, but the sentence presupposes that a path consists of a 
single SID list. Perhaps that sentence can just be removed?

----------------

    The BSID of an SR Policy refers to its selected path.

    In all the use-cases known to date, all the paths associated with a
    given policy have the same BSID.  One may thus assume that in
    practice a policy has a stable BSID that is independent of the
    selected path changes and this BSID is an identification of a policy.

----------------

Eric> Observations about the characteristics of "all the use-cases known 
to date" do not determine what one "may assume" about the future.  If 
the intention is that, at any given time, a given BSID maps directly to 
a single SR Policy and indirectly to its selected path, please state 
this explicitly, using normative terminology (e.g., RFC2119 "MUST").

----------------

    However, one should know that a BSID MAY change over the life of an

----------------

Eric> Perhaps "a BSID MAY change" --> "the mapping from a given BSID to 
an SR Policy may change".

----------------

    SR Policy and the true identification of a policy is the tuple
    <headend, endpoint, color>.

    An SR Policy <color, endpoint> is active at a headend as soon as this
    head-end knows about a valid path for this policy.

    An active SR Policy installs a BSID-keyed entry in the forwarding
    plane with the action of steering the packets matching this entry to
    the SID list of the SR Policy.

----------------

Eric> I think "the SID list of the SR Policy" should be replaced with 
"the selected path of the SR Policy".

----------------

    If a set of SID lists is associated with the selected path of the
    policy, then the steering is flow and W-ECMP based according to the
    relative weight of each SID list.

    In summary, the information model is the following:


             SR policy FOO
                 path 200 (selected)
                     BSID1
                     Weight W1, SID list1: SID11...SID1i
                     Weight W2, SID list2: SID21...SID2j
                 path 100 (selected)
                     BSID2
                     Weight W3, SID list3: SID31...SID3i
                     Weight W4, SID list4: SID41...SID4j

----------------

Eric> It is not clear what (if anything) the numbers "200" and "100" are 
meant to represent.

Eric> The above seems to suggest that Policy FOO has two selected 
paths.  That doesn't seem compatible with prior text that says only one 
path is selected from among the candidate paths.

----------------

    In general BSDIn = BSID1 = BSID2 ...

----------------

Eric> I don't see that this observation about what happens "in general" 
is really useful, except perhaps a recommendation to operators.  The 
draft needs to specify exactly what happens if two different BSIDs are 
assigned to the same Policy.

Eric> For concreteness, let's assume that Policy <headend1, color1, 
endpoint1> is distributed by BGP with BSID1, and that the same policy is 
distributed by PCEP with BSID2.  And let's assume that the selected path 
for that Policy is a path that is distributed by BGP.  Now what is 
headend1 supposed to do if it sees a packet whose top label is BSID2?  
Would BSID2 be considered to be an invalid incoming label, or would it 
be considered to denote the <color1, endpoint1> Policy?  If the latter, 
presumably it would denote the selected path for that Policy, even 
though the BSID was distributed by PCEP and the selected path was 
distributed by BGP.


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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 21:40:00 +0200
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To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
Cc: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>,  "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
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Hi Carlos,

Sorry what is "TFS" ?

RFC 7110 does not even use such abbreviation neither do
draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed :) Google also seems to be pretty clueless
about it.

Just curious as you keep using this term in each email :)

Thx,
R.

On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 9:24 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:

> Greg,
>
> In the MPLS data plane, FECs are also instantiated through a label stack.
> But RFC 7110 does not use numeric label values, it uses TFSs. That does n=
ot
> create any additional state. E.g.,: https://www.ietf.org/
> mail-archive/web/mpls/current/msg16091.html
>
> Thanks,
>
> =E2=80=94 Carlos.
>
>
>
> On May 9, 2017, at 3:43 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Carlos,
> I probably would characterize anything that starts with Why not as a
> technical comment but rather as a question.
> According to draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls, "In the MPLS
> dataplane,the SR header is instantiated through a label stack".
> At the same time, one of advantages of SR is that "per-flow state only
> [maintained] at the ingress node to the SR domain".
> Thus, for the case of monitoring unidirectional SR tunnels, I consider
> that there's no need to create any additional state on the egress node.
> Of course, if there were bidirectional SR tunnels, then control of the
> reverse direction of the BFD session would not require use of the Return
> Path sub-TLV.
> As for LSP-Ping, I just propose that the Segment Routing MPLS Tunnel
> sub-TLV MAY be used Reply Path TLV defined in RFC 7110. I viewed the
> proposal as invitation to technical discussion.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 9:07 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
> cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Greg!
>>
>> Since https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00 seems quite
>> similar to the text removed at https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff
>> ?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed-05.txt, then the complete set of
>> outstanding technical comments that triggered the removal of that text f=
rom
>> draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed-05.txt might peek your interest :-)
>>
>> One that I recall is: why use label values when every other return-path
>> sub-TLV for BFD and for LSP-Ping, including draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed=
,
>> uses TFSs?
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> =E2=80=94 Carlos.
>>
>> On May 9, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Carlos,
>> I've decided to re-start the discussion and am interested to hear
>> technical comments to the proposed solution.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Greg
>>
>> On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 8:51 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
>> cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Greg,
>>>
>>> Cursorily scanning through this, it seems that most concerns raised and
>>> comments made about the SR sections of draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed-0N
>>> (with N < 5) apply to your new draft.
>>>
>>> This is one of those: https://www.ietf.org/ma
>>> il-archive/web/mpls/current/msg15860.html =E2=80=94 the list archive sh=
ows a
>>> few more. The copy/paste did not address the comments.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> =E2=80=94 Carlos.
>>>
>>> On May 8, 2017, at 11:33 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear All,
>>> perhaps this new draft may is of interest to you.
>>> Your comments, suggestions are most welcome and greatly appreciated.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Greg
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
>>> Date: Mon, May 8, 2017 at 8:29 PM
>>> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt
>>> To: Gregory Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A new version of I-D, draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt
>>> has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the
>>> IETF repository.
>>>
>>> Name:           draft-mirsky-spring-bfd
>>> Revision:       00
>>> Title:          Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD) in Segment
>>> Routing Networks Using MPLS Dataplane
>>> Document date:  2017-05-08
>>> Group:          Individual Submission
>>> Pages:          7
>>> URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-
>>> drafts/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt
>>> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/
>>> doc/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd/
>>> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00
>>> Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/
>>> doc/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00
>>>
>>>
>>> Abstract:
>>>    Segment Routing architecture leverages the paradigm of source
>>>    routing.  It can be realized in the Multiprotocol Label Switching
>>>    (MPLS) network without any change to the data plane.  A segment is
>>>    encoded as an MPLS label and an ordered list of segments is encoded
>>>    as a stack of labels.  Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD) is
>>>    expected to monitor any kind of paths between systems.  This documen=
t
>>>    defines how to use Label Switched Path Ping to bootstrap and control
>>>    path in reverse direction of a BFD session on the Segment Routing
>>>    network over MPLS dataplane.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
>>> submission
>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>>>
>>> The IETF Secretariat
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mpls mailing list
>>> mpls@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi Carlos,</div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif;font-size:small">Sorry what is &quot;TFS&quot; ?=C2=A0</div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-=
size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:ari=
al,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">RFC 7110 does not even use such ab=
breviation neither do=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:1em;font-family:arial,s=
ans-serif">draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed</span>=C2=A0:) Google also seems to=
 be pretty clueless about it.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small">Just curious as you keep using this term in each email :)=C2=
=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,=
sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Thx,<br>R.</div></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, May 1=
0, 2017 at 9:24 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">cpignata@cisco.com</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
Greg,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In the MPLS data plane, FECs are also instantiated through a label sta=
ck. But RFC 7110 does not use numeric label values, it uses TFSs. That does=
 not create any additional state. E.g.,:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mail-archive/web/mpls/current/msg16091.html" target=3D"_blank">https://w=
ww.ietf.org/<wbr>mail-archive/web/mpls/current/<wbr>msg16091.html</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=E2=80=94 Carlos.</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On May 9, 2017, at 3:43 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimir=
sky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"m_-2388848139708122278Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Carlos,
<div>I probably would characterize anything that starts with Why not as a t=
echnical comment but rather as a question.</div>
<div>According to=C2=A0<font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span st=
yle=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245)">d</span><span style=3D"background=
-color:rgb(255,253,245)">raft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-mpls, &quot;=
</span><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245)">In
 the MPLS=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245)">dat=
aplane,</span><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245)">the SR head=
er is instantiated through a label stack&quot;.</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"background-=
color:rgb(255,253,245)">At the same time, one of advantages of SR is that &=
quot;</span><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);font-size:14px=
">per-flow
 state only [maintained] at the ingress node to the SR=C2=A0</span><span st=
yle=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);font-size:14px">domain&quot;.</spa=
n></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"background-=
color:rgb(255,253,245);font-size:14px">Thus, for the case of monitoring uni=
directional SR tunnels, I consider that there&#39;s no need to create any a=
dditional
 state on the egress node.</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"background-=
color:rgb(255,253,245);font-size:14px">Of course, if there were bidirection=
al SR tunnels, then control of the reverse direction of the BFD session wou=
ld
 not require use of the Return Path sub-TLV.</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"background-=
color:rgb(255,253,245);font-size:14px">As for LSP-Ping, I just propose that=
 the Segment Routing MPLS Tunnel sub-TLV MAY be used Reply Path TLV defined=
 in
 RFC 7110. I viewed the proposal as invitation to technical discussion.</sp=
an></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"background-=
color:rgb(255,253,245);font-size:14px"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"background-=
color:rgb(255,253,245);font-size:14px">Regards,</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"background-=
color:rgb(255,253,245);font-size:14px">Greg</span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 9:07 AM, Carlos Pignataro=
 (cpignata)
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">cpignata@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Thank you Greg!
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Since <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-0=
0" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr<wbr>aft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00</a> seems quite=
 similar to the text removed at
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-mpls-bfd-direct=
ed-05.txt" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff<wbr>?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-mpls-bfd-<wbr>directe=
d-05.txt</a>, then the complete set of outstanding technical comments that =
triggered the removal of that text from draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed-0<wbr>=
5.txt might
 peek your interest :-)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>One that I recall is: why use label values when every other return-pat=
h sub-TLV for BFD and for LSP-Ping, including draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed,=
 uses TFSs?=C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=E2=80=94 Carlos.</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-2388848139708122278h5">
<div><br>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On May 9, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimi=
rsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div=
>
<br class=3D"m_-2388848139708122278m_-4280274170038998902Apple-interchange-=
newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear Carlos,
<div>I&#39;ve decided to re-start the discussion and am interested to hear =
technical comments to the proposed solution.=C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Greg</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 8:51 AM, Carlos Pignataro=
 (cpignata)
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">cpignata@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Dear Greg,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cursorily scanning through this, it seems that most concerns raised an=
d comments made about the SR sections of=C2=A0draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directe<w=
br>d-0N (with N &lt; 5) apply to your new draft.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is one of those:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archiv=
e/web/mpls/current/msg15860.html" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
<wbr>il-archive/web/mpls/current/ms<wbr>g15860.html</a> =E2=80=94 the list =
archive shows
 a few more. The copy/paste did not address the comments.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=E2=80=94 Carlos.</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-2388848139708122278m_-4280274170038998902h5">
<div>On May 8, 2017, at 11:33 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimi=
rsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div=
>
<br class=3D"m_-2388848139708122278m_-4280274170038998902m_4187817155334607=
817Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-2388848139708122278m_-4280274170038998902h5">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear All,
<div>perhaps this new draft may is of interest to you.</div>
<div>Your comments, suggestions are most welcome and greatly appreciated.</=
div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Greg</div>
<div><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"></b><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">internet-drafts@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;</span><br>
Date: Mon, May 8, 2017 at 8:29 PM<br>
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt<br>
To: Gregory Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_=
blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
A new version of I-D, draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt<br>
has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the<br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-mirsky-spring-bfd<br>
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000<br>
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bidirectional Forwarding Detection=
 (BFD) in Segment Routing Networks Using MPLS Dataplane<br>
Document date:=C2=A0 2017-05-08<br>
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission<br>
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 7<br>
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/internet-drafts/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt" rel=3D"noreferrer" targe=
t=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-<wbr>drafts/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd<wbr>-00.t=
xt</a><br>
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd/</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://to=
ols.ietf.org/html/d<wbr>raft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">=
https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/html/draft-mirsky-spring-b<wbr>fd-00<=
/a><br>
<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Segment Routing architecture leverages the paradigm of source<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0routing.=C2=A0 It can be realized in the Multiprotocol Label S=
witching<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(MPLS) network without any change to the data plane.=C2=A0 A s=
egment is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0encoded as an MPLS label and an ordered list of segments is en=
coded<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0as a stack of labels.=C2=A0 Bidirectional Forwarding Detection=
 (BFD) is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0expected to monitor any kind of paths between systems.=C2=A0 T=
his document<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0defines how to use Label Switched Path Ping to bootstrap and c=
ontrol<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0path in reverse direction of a BFD session on the Segment Rout=
ing<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0network over MPLS dataplane.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">
tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
The IETF Secretariat<br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/mpls</a><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

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Never mind .. I guess you made it up from "Target FEC Stack" :)



On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 9:40 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> Hi Carlos,
>
> Sorry what is "TFS" ?
>
> RFC 7110 does not even use such abbreviation neither do
> draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed :) Google also seems to be pretty clueless
> about it.
>
> Just curious as you keep using this term in each email :)
>
> Thx,
> R.
>
> On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 9:24 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
> cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>> Greg,
>>
>> In the MPLS data plane, FECs are also instantiated through a label stack=
.
>> But RFC 7110 does not use numeric label values, it uses TFSs. That does =
not
>> create any additional state. E.g.,: https://www.ietf.org/ma
>> il-archive/web/mpls/current/msg16091.html
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> =E2=80=94 Carlos.
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 9, 2017, at 3:43 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Carlos,
>> I probably would characterize anything that starts with Why not as a
>> technical comment but rather as a question.
>> According to draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls, "In the MPLS
>> dataplane,the SR header is instantiated through a label stack".
>> At the same time, one of advantages of SR is that "per-flow state only
>> [maintained] at the ingress node to the SR domain".
>> Thus, for the case of monitoring unidirectional SR tunnels, I consider
>> that there's no need to create any additional state on the egress node.
>> Of course, if there were bidirectional SR tunnels, then control of the
>> reverse direction of the BFD session would not require use of the Return
>> Path sub-TLV.
>> As for LSP-Ping, I just propose that the Segment Routing MPLS Tunnel
>> sub-TLV MAY be used Reply Path TLV defined in RFC 7110. I viewed the
>> proposal as invitation to technical discussion.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Greg
>>
>> On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 9:07 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
>> cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you Greg!
>>>
>>> Since https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00 seems
>>> quite similar to the text removed at https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff
>>> ?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed-05.txt, then the complete set of
>>> outstanding technical comments that triggered the removal of that text =
from
>>> draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed-05.txt might peek your interest :-)
>>>
>>> One that I recall is: why use label values when every other return-path
>>> sub-TLV for BFD and for LSP-Ping, including draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directe=
d,
>>> uses TFSs?
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> =E2=80=94 Carlos.
>>>
>>> On May 9, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Carlos,
>>> I've decided to re-start the discussion and am interested to hear
>>> technical comments to the proposed solution.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Greg
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 8:51 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
>>> cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Greg,
>>>>
>>>> Cursorily scanning through this, it seems that most concerns raised an=
d
>>>> comments made about the SR sections of draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed-0N
>>>> (with N < 5) apply to your new draft.
>>>>
>>>> This is one of those: https://www.ietf.org/ma
>>>> il-archive/web/mpls/current/msg15860.html =E2=80=94 the list archive s=
hows a
>>>> few more. The copy/paste did not address the comments.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> =E2=80=94 Carlos.
>>>>
>>>> On May 8, 2017, at 11:33 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>>>>
>>>> Dear All,
>>>> perhaps this new draft may is of interest to you.
>>>> Your comments, suggestions are most welcome and greatly appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Greg
>>>>
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
>>>> Date: Mon, May 8, 2017 at 8:29 PM
>>>> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt
>>>> To: Gregory Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A new version of I-D, draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt
>>>> has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the
>>>> IETF repository.
>>>>
>>>> Name:           draft-mirsky-spring-bfd
>>>> Revision:       00
>>>> Title:          Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD) in Segment
>>>> Routing Networks Using MPLS Dataplane
>>>> Document date:  2017-05-08
>>>> Group:          Individual Submission
>>>> Pages:          7
>>>> URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-
>>>> drafts/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt
>>>> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/
>>>> doc/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd/
>>>> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00
>>>> Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/
>>>> doc/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Abstract:
>>>>    Segment Routing architecture leverages the paradigm of source
>>>>    routing.  It can be realized in the Multiprotocol Label Switching
>>>>    (MPLS) network without any change to the data plane.  A segment is
>>>>    encoded as an MPLS label and an ordered list of segments is encoded
>>>>    as a stack of labels.  Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD) is
>>>>    expected to monitor any kind of paths between systems.  This docume=
nt
>>>>    defines how to use Label Switched Path Ping to bootstrap and contro=
l
>>>>    path in reverse direction of a BFD session on the Segment Routing
>>>>    network over MPLS dataplane.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
>>>> submission
>>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>>>>
>>>> The IETF Secretariat
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> mpls mailing list
>>>> mpls@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

--001a114043b0731de7054f30aa83
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Never mind=
 .. I guess you made it up from &quot;<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-=
family:&quot;times new roman&quot;;font-size:medium">Target FEC Stack&quot;=
 :)</span></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,hel=
vetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-fam=
ily:&quot;times new roman&quot;;font-size:medium"><br></span></div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-s=
ize:small"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:&quot;times new roma=
n&quot;;font-size:medium"><br></span></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"=
><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 9:40 PM, Robert Ras=
zuk <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_b=
lank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:ari=
al,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi Carlos,</div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"=
><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetic=
a,sans-serif;font-size:small">Sorry what is &quot;TFS&quot; ?=C2=A0</div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;=
font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-famil=
y:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">RFC 7110 does not even use su=
ch abbreviation neither do=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:1em;font-family:ar=
ial,sans-serif">draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-<wbr>directed</span>=C2=A0:) Google als=
o seems to be pretty clueless about it.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br><=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans=
-serif;font-size:small">Just curious as you keep using this term in each em=
ail :)=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,h=
elvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
 style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Thx,<br>R=
.</div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_ex=
tra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 9:24 PM, Carlos=
 Pignataro (cpignata) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisc=
o.com" target=3D"_blank">cpignata@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
Greg,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In the MPLS data plane, FECs are also instantiated through a label sta=
ck. But RFC 7110 does not use numeric label values, it uses TFSs. That does=
 not create any additional state. E.g.,:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mail-archive/web/mpls/current/msg16091.html" target=3D"_blank">https://w=
ww.ietf.org/ma<wbr>il-archive/web/mpls/current/ms<wbr>g16091.html</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=E2=80=94 Carlos.</div><div><div class=3D"m_5431458121928681302h5">
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On May 9, 2017, at 3:43 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimir=
sky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"m_5431458121928681302m_-2388848139708122278Apple-interchange-n=
ewline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Carlos,
<div>I probably would characterize anything that starts with Why not as a t=
echnical comment but rather as a question.</div>
<div>According to=C2=A0<font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span st=
yle=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245)">d</span><span style=3D"background=
-color:rgb(255,253,245)">raft-ietf-spring-segment-r<wbr>outing-mpls, &quot;=
</span><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245)">In
 the MPLS=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245)">dat=
aplane,</span><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245)">the SR head=
er is instantiated through a label stack&quot;.</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"background-=
color:rgb(255,253,245)">At the same time, one of advantages of SR is that &=
quot;</span><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);font-size:14px=
">per-flow
 state only [maintained] at the ingress node to the SR=C2=A0</span><span st=
yle=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);font-size:14px">domain&quot;.</spa=
n></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"background-=
color:rgb(255,253,245);font-size:14px">Thus, for the case of monitoring uni=
directional SR tunnels, I consider that there&#39;s no need to create any a=
dditional
 state on the egress node.</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"background-=
color:rgb(255,253,245);font-size:14px">Of course, if there were bidirection=
al SR tunnels, then control of the reverse direction of the BFD session wou=
ld
 not require use of the Return Path sub-TLV.</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"background-=
color:rgb(255,253,245);font-size:14px">As for LSP-Ping, I just propose that=
 the Segment Routing MPLS Tunnel sub-TLV MAY be used Reply Path TLV defined=
 in
 RFC 7110. I viewed the proposal as invitation to technical discussion.</sp=
an></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"background-=
color:rgb(255,253,245);font-size:14px"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"background-=
color:rgb(255,253,245);font-size:14px">Regards,</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"background-=
color:rgb(255,253,245);font-size:14px">Greg</span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 9:07 AM, Carlos Pignataro=
 (cpignata)
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">cpignata@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Thank you Greg!
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Since <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-0=
0" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr<wbr>aft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00</a> seems quite=
 similar to the text removed at
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-mpls-bfd-direct=
ed-05.txt" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff<wbr>?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-mpls-bfd-dire<wbr>cte=
d-05.txt</a>, then the complete set of outstanding technical comments that =
triggered the removal of that text from draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed-0<wbr>=
5.txt might
 peek your interest :-)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>One that I recall is: why use label values when every other return-pat=
h sub-TLV for BFD and for LSP-Ping, including draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed,=
 uses TFSs?=C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=E2=80=94 Carlos.</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_5431458121928681302m_-2388848139708122278h5">
<div><br>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On May 9, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimi=
rsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div=
>
<br class=3D"m_5431458121928681302m_-2388848139708122278m_-4280274170038998=
902Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear Carlos,
<div>I&#39;ve decided to re-start the discussion and am interested to hear =
technical comments to the proposed solution.=C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Greg</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 8:51 AM, Carlos Pignataro=
 (cpignata)
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">cpignata@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Dear Greg,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cursorily scanning through this, it seems that most concerns raised an=
d comments made about the SR sections of=C2=A0draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directe<w=
br>d-0N (with N &lt; 5) apply to your new draft.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is one of those:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archiv=
e/web/mpls/current/msg15860.html" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
<wbr>il-archive/web/mpls/current/ms<wbr>g15860.html</a> =E2=80=94 the list =
archive shows
 a few more. The copy/paste did not address the comments.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=E2=80=94 Carlos.</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div class=3D"m_5431458121928681302m_-2388848139708122278m_-428027417003899=
8902h5">
<div>On May 8, 2017, at 11:33 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimi=
rsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div=
>
<br class=3D"m_5431458121928681302m_-2388848139708122278m_-4280274170038998=
902m_4187817155334607817Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_5431458121928681302m_-2388848139708122278m_-428027417003899=
8902h5">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear All,
<div>perhaps this new draft may is of interest to you.</div>
<div>Your comments, suggestions are most welcome and greatly appreciated.</=
div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Greg</div>
<div><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"></b><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">internet-drafts@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;</span><br>
Date: Mon, May 8, 2017 at 8:29 PM<br>
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt<br>
To: Gregory Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_=
blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
A new version of I-D, draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt<br>
has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the<br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-mirsky-spring-bfd<br>
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000<br>
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bidirectional Forwarding Detection=
 (BFD) in Segment Routing Networks Using MPLS Dataplane<br>
Document date:=C2=A0 2017-05-08<br>
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission<br>
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 7<br>
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/internet-drafts/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt" rel=3D"noreferrer" targe=
t=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-<wbr>drafts/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd<wbr>-00.t=
xt</a><br>
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd/</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://to=
ols.ietf.org/html/d<wbr>raft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">=
https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/html/draft-mirsky-spring-b<wbr>fd-00<=
/a><br>
<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Segment Routing architecture leverages the paradigm of source<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0routing.=C2=A0 It can be realized in the Multiprotocol Label S=
witching<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(MPLS) network without any change to the data plane.=C2=A0 A s=
egment is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0encoded as an MPLS label and an ordered list of segments is en=
coded<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0as a stack of labels.=C2=A0 Bidirectional Forwarding Detection=
 (BFD) is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0expected to monitor any kind of paths between systems.=C2=A0 T=
his document<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0defines how to use Label Switched Path Ping to bootstrap and c=
ontrol<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0path in reverse direction of a BFD session on the Segment Rout=
ing<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0network over MPLS dataplane.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">
tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
The IETF Secretariat<br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/mpls</a><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a114043b0731de7054f30aa83--


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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] New Version Notification for draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 14:23:48 -0700
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To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
Cc: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>,  "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] New Version Notification for draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt
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Hi Carlos,
RFC 7110 defined sub-TLVs by extensively re-using TFS sub-TLVs. Even more,
they've referenced explanations of fields to the TFS-defining RFCs. I guess
only Flags field was introduced in RFC 7110 with Primary and Secondary bit
flag fields being defined.

As, I've said in the discussion on BFD directed, this is proposal, it make
sense to me as the head-end has all the information already. I always
welcome technical comments and appreciate well-argumented discussion. What
would be the reason not to use the proposed approach but do it TFS-like
style?

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 1:01 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:

> You are right =E2=80=94 sorry about that! =E2=80=9CTFS=E2=80=9D is not us=
ed in any of those RFCs
> or drafts, although it is used on email discussions about LSP Ping.
>
> Indeed, TFS for =E2=80=9CTarget FEC Stack=E2=80=9D from Section 3.2 of RF=
C 8029.
>
> Thanks,
>
> =E2=80=94 Carlos.
>
> On May 10, 2017, at 3:41 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>
>
> Never mind .. I guess you made it up from "Target FEC Stack" :)
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 9:40 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Carlos,
>>
>> Sorry what is "TFS" ?
>>
>> RFC 7110 does not even use such abbreviation neither do
>> draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed :) Google also seems to be pretty clueless
>> about it.
>>
>> Just curious as you keep using this term in each email :)
>>
>> Thx,
>> R.
>>
>> On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 9:24 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
>> cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Greg,
>>>
>>> In the MPLS data plane, FECs are also instantiated through a label
>>> stack. But RFC 7110 does not use numeric label values, it uses TFSs. Th=
at
>>> does not create any additional state. E.g.,: https://www.ietf.org/ma
>>> il-archive/web/mpls/current/msg16091.html
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> =E2=80=94 Carlos.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 9, 2017, at 3:43 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Carlos,
>>> I probably would characterize anything that starts with Why not as a
>>> technical comment but rather as a question.
>>> According to draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls, "In the MPLS
>>> dataplane,the SR header is instantiated through a label stack".
>>> At the same time, one of advantages of SR is that "per-flow state only
>>> [maintained] at the ingress node to the SR domain".
>>> Thus, for the case of monitoring unidirectional SR tunnels, I consider
>>> that there's no need to create any additional state on the egress node.
>>> Of course, if there were bidirectional SR tunnels, then control of the
>>> reverse direction of the BFD session would not require use of the Retur=
n
>>> Path sub-TLV.
>>> As for LSP-Ping, I just propose that the Segment Routing MPLS Tunnel
>>> sub-TLV MAY be used Reply Path TLV defined in RFC 7110. I viewed the
>>> proposal as invitation to technical discussion.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Greg
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 9:07 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
>>> cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thank you Greg!
>>>>
>>>> Since https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00 seems
>>>> quite similar to the text removed at https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff
>>>> ?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed-05.txt, then the complete set of
>>>> outstanding technical comments that triggered the removal of that text=
 from
>>>> draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed-05.txt might peek your interest :-)
>>>>
>>>> One that I recall is: why use label values when every other return-pat=
h
>>>> sub-TLV for BFD and for LSP-Ping, including draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-direct=
ed,
>>>> uses TFSs?
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> =E2=80=94 Carlos.
>>>>
>>>> On May 9, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Carlos,
>>>> I've decided to re-start the discussion and am interested to hear
>>>> technical comments to the proposed solution.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Greg
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 8:51 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
>>>> cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Greg,
>>>>>
>>>>> Cursorily scanning through this, it seems that most concerns raised
>>>>> and comments made about the SR sections of draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-direct=
ed-0N
>>>>> (with N < 5) apply to your new draft.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is one of those: https://www.ietf.org/ma
>>>>> il-archive/web/mpls/current/msg15860.html =E2=80=94 the list archive =
shows a
>>>>> few more. The copy/paste did not address the comments.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> =E2=80=94 Carlos.
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 8, 2017, at 11:33 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>> perhaps this new draft may is of interest to you.
>>>>> Your comments, suggestions are most welcome and greatly appreciated.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Greg
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
>>>>> Date: Mon, May 8, 2017 at 8:29 PM
>>>>> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt
>>>>> To: Gregory Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A new version of I-D, draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt
>>>>> has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the
>>>>> IETF repository.
>>>>>
>>>>> Name:           draft-mirsky-spring-bfd
>>>>> Revision:       00
>>>>> Title:          Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD) in Segment
>>>>> Routing Networks Using MPLS Dataplane
>>>>> Document date:  2017-05-08
>>>>> Group:          Individual Submission
>>>>> Pages:          7
>>>>> URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-
>>>>> drafts/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt
>>>>> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/
>>>>> doc/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd/
>>>>> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-0=
0
>>>>> Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/
>>>>> doc/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Abstract:
>>>>>    Segment Routing architecture leverages the paradigm of source
>>>>>    routing.  It can be realized in the Multiprotocol Label Switching
>>>>>    (MPLS) network without any change to the data plane.  A segment is
>>>>>    encoded as an MPLS label and an ordered list of segments is encode=
d
>>>>>    as a stack of labels.  Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD) is
>>>>>    expected to monitor any kind of paths between systems.  This
>>>>> document
>>>>>    defines how to use Label Switched Path Ping to bootstrap and contr=
ol
>>>>>    path in reverse direction of a BFD session on the Segment Routing
>>>>>    network over MPLS dataplane.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
>>>>> submission
>>>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>>>>>
>>>>> The IETF Secretariat
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> mpls mailing list
>>>>> mpls@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

--94eb2c04713888651a054f32160f
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Carlos,<div>RFC 7110 defined sub-TLVs by extensively re=
-using TFS sub-TLVs. Even more, they&#39;ve referenced explanations of fiel=
ds to the TFS-defining RFCs. I guess only Flags field was introduced in RFC=
 7110 with Primary and Secondary bit flag fields being defined.</div><div><=
br></div><div>As, I&#39;ve said in the discussion on BFD directed, this is =
proposal, it make sense to me as the head-end has all the information alrea=
dy. I always welcome technical comments and appreciate well-argumented disc=
ussion. What would be the reason not to use the proposed approach but do it=
 TFS-like style?</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, May 10,=
 2017 at 1:01 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">cpignata@cisco.com</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
You are right =E2=80=94 sorry about that! =E2=80=9CTFS=E2=80=9D is not used=
 in any of those RFCs or drafts, although it is used on email discussions a=
bout LSP Ping.
<div><br>
<div>Indeed, TFS for =E2=80=9CTarget FEC Stack=E2=80=9D from Section 3.2 of=
 RFC=C2=A08029.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=E2=80=94 Carlos.</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div><br>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On May 10, 2017, at 3:41 PM, Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rober=
t@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"m_7229061103126530877Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Never mind .. I guess you made it up from &quot;<span style=3D"font-family:=
&#39;times new roman&#39;;font-size:12px">Target FEC Stack&quot; :)</span><=
/div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<span style=3D"font-family:&#39;times new roman&#39;;font-size:12px"><br>
</span></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<span style=3D"font-family:&#39;times new roman&#39;;font-size:12px"><br>
</span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 9:40 PM, Robert Raszuk <=
span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.ne=
t</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Hi Carlos,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Sorry what is &quot;TFS&quot; ?=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
RFC 7110 does not even use such abbreviation neither do=C2=A0<span style=3D=
"font-size:1em;font-family:arial,sans-serif">draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directe<wb=
r>d</span>=C2=A0:) Google also seems to be pretty clueless about it.=C2=A0<=
/div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Just curious as you keep using this term in each email :)=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Thx,<br>
R.</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"m_7229061103126530877HOEnZb">
<div class=3D"m_7229061103126530877h5">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 9:24 PM, Carlos Pignatar=
o (cpignata)
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">cpignata@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Greg,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In the MPLS data plane, FECs are also instantiated through a label sta=
ck. But RFC 7110 does not use numeric label values, it uses TFSs. That does=
 not create any additional state. E.g.,:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mail-archive/web/mpls/current/msg16091.html" target=3D"_blank">https://w=
ww.ietf.org/ma<wbr>il-archive/web/mpls/current/ms<wbr>g16091.html</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=E2=80=94 Carlos.</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_7229061103126530877m_5431458121928681302h5">
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On May 9, 2017, at 3:43 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimir=
sky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"m_7229061103126530877m_5431458121928681302m_-23888481397081222=
78Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Carlos,
<div>I probably would characterize anything that starts with Why not as a t=
echnical comment but rather as a question.</div>
<div>According to=C2=A0<font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span st=
yle=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245)">d</span><span style=3D"background=
-color:rgb(255,253,245)">raft-ietf-spring-segment-r<wbr>outing-mpls, &quot;=
</span><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245)">In
 the MPLS=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245)">dat=
aplane,</span><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245)">the SR head=
er is instantiated through a label stack&quot;.</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"background-=
color:rgb(255,253,245)">At the same time, one of advantages of SR is that &=
quot;</span><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);font-size:14px=
">per-flow
 state only [maintained] at the ingress node to the SR=C2=A0</span><span st=
yle=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);font-size:14px">domain&quot;.</spa=
n></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"background-=
color:rgb(255,253,245);font-size:14px">Thus, for the case of monitoring uni=
directional SR tunnels, I consider that there&#39;s no need to create any a=
dditional state
 on the egress node.</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"background-=
color:rgb(255,253,245);font-size:14px">Of course, if there were bidirection=
al SR tunnels, then control of the reverse direction of the BFD session wou=
ld not require
 use of the Return Path sub-TLV.</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"background-=
color:rgb(255,253,245);font-size:14px">As for LSP-Ping, I just propose that=
 the Segment Routing MPLS Tunnel sub-TLV MAY be used Reply Path TLV defined=
 in RFC 7110.
 I viewed the proposal as invitation to technical discussion.</span></font>=
</div>
<div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"background-=
color:rgb(255,253,245);font-size:14px"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"background-=
color:rgb(255,253,245);font-size:14px">Regards,</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"background-=
color:rgb(255,253,245);font-size:14px">Greg</span></font></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 9:07 AM, Carlos Pignataro=
 (cpignata)
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">cpignata@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Thank you Greg!
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Since <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-0=
0" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr<wbr>aft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00</a> seems quite=
 similar to the text removed at
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-mpls-bfd-direct=
ed-05.txt" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff<wbr>?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-mpls-bfd-dire<wbr>cte=
d-05.txt</a>, then the complete set of outstanding technical comments that =
triggered the removal of that text from draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed-0<wbr>=
5.txt might
 peek your interest :-)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>One that I recall is: why use label values when every other return-pat=
h sub-TLV for BFD and for LSP-Ping, including draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed,=
 uses TFSs?=C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=E2=80=94 Carlos.</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_7229061103126530877m_5431458121928681302m_-2388848139708122=
278h5">
<div><br>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On May 9, 2017, at 12:00 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimi=
rsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div=
>
<br class=3D"m_7229061103126530877m_5431458121928681302m_-23888481397081222=
78m_-4280274170038998902Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear Carlos,
<div>I&#39;ve decided to re-start the discussion and am interested to hear =
technical comments to the proposed solution.=C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Greg</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 8:51 AM, Carlos Pignataro=
 (cpignata)
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">cpignata@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Dear Greg,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cursorily scanning through this, it seems that most concerns raised an=
d comments made about the SR sections of=C2=A0draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directe<w=
br>d-0N (with N &lt; 5) apply to your new draft.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is one of those:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archiv=
e/web/mpls/current/msg15860.html" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
<wbr>il-archive/web/mpls/current/ms<wbr>g15860.html</a> =E2=80=94 the list =
archive shows
 a few more. The copy/paste did not address the comments.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=E2=80=94 Carlos.</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div class=3D"m_7229061103126530877m_5431458121928681302m_-2388848139708122=
278m_-4280274170038998902h5">
<div>On May 8, 2017, at 11:33 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimi=
rsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div=
>
<br class=3D"m_7229061103126530877m_5431458121928681302m_-23888481397081222=
78m_-4280274170038998902m_4187817155334607817Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_7229061103126530877m_5431458121928681302m_-2388848139708122=
278m_-4280274170038998902h5">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear All,
<div>perhaps this new draft may is of interest to you.</div>
<div>Your comments, suggestions are most welcome and greatly appreciated.</=
div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Greg</div>
<div><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"></b><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">internet-drafts@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;</span><br>
Date: Mon, May 8, 2017 at 8:29 PM<br>
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt<br>
To: Gregory Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_=
blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
A new version of I-D, draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt<br>
has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the<br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-mirsky-spring-bfd<br>
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000<br>
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bidirectional Forwarding Detection=
 (BFD) in Segment Routing Networks Using MPLS Dataplane<br>
Document date:=C2=A0 2017-05-08<br>
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission<br>
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 7<br>
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/internet-drafts/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt" rel=3D"noreferrer" targe=
t=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-<wbr>drafts/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd<wbr>-00.t=
xt</a><br>
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd/</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://to=
ols.ietf.org/html/d<wbr>raft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">=
https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/html/draft-mirsky-spring-b<wbr>fd-00<=
/a><br>
<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Segment Routing architecture leverages the paradigm of source<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0routing.=C2=A0 It can be realized in the Multiprotocol Label S=
witching<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(MPLS) network without any change to the data plane.=C2=A0 A s=
egment is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0encoded as an MPLS label and an ordered list of segments is en=
coded<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0as a stack of labels.=C2=A0 Bidirectional Forwarding Detection=
 (BFD) is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0expected to monitor any kind of paths between systems.=C2=A0 T=
his document<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0defines how to use Label Switched Path Ping to bootstrap and c=
ontrol<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0path in reverse direction of a BFD session on the Segment Rout=
ing<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0network over MPLS dataplane.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">
tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
The IETF Secretariat<br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/mpls</a><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--94eb2c04713888651a054f32160f--


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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] New Version Notification for draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt
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Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 21:46:58 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] New Version Notification for draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-00.txt
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From: "Roberta Maglione (robmgl)" <robmgl@cisco.com>
To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, "gen-art@ietf.org" <gen-art@ietf.org>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases.all@ietf.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Genart last call review of draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases-10
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Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 07:26:40 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases-10
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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: "draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>, Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>, Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>,  Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>
Thread-Topic: A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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Subject: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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Hi all,
I have a belated (but hopefully late is still better than never) comment o=
n path protection as defined in Section 2 of the draft<https://datatracker=
.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases/?include_text=3D1>.

This second para in this section says:
   A first protection strategy consists in excluding any local repair
   but instead use end-to-end path protection where each SPRING path is
   protected by a second disjoint SPRING path.  In this case local
   protection MUST NOT be used.
First of all, I do not think that RFC 2119 language should be used in Info=
rmational documents, especially in the documents that describe use cases.

In addition, I specifically disagree with the quoted statement above, beca=
use, from my POV:

*         Local repair and end-to-end path protection can be combined for =
the same path

*         Such a combination may be beneficial for the operators.

One possible way to combine the two is described below:


1.       A pair of SR paths is set up between the given two nodes - later =
referred to as source and destination -  in the network. These paths are "=
SR-disjoint" in the sense that their "explicit routes"  do not have any co=
mmon elements, be they nodes or adjacencies, with exclusion of the final d=
estination

2.       Local repair for these paths is enabled in the network. It is tri=
ggered by locally observed events (link failures etc.), applied by the nod=
es adjacent to the failure and guarantees that, in the case of a link or n=
ode failure that is not specified in the explicit route, traffic along the=
 affected path would be restored within <X> milliseconds

3.       End-to-end liveness monitoring is enabled for the two SR paths, a=
nd detects end-to-end failures of these paths within <Y> milliseconds wher=
e Y >> X. In other words, end-to-end liveness monitoring for these paths w=
ill ignore any failures that local repair can fix, but will detect failure=
s that cannot be locally repaired (e.g., failures of nodes or links that h=
ave been specified in the explicit route of one of the paths

4.       End-to-end liveness monitoring triggers end-to-end path protectio=
n to be applied by the source node in the following way:

a.       If it recognizes both paths as alive, one of them will carry the =
customer traffic, while the other one will be idle. The rules for selectin=
g the active path in this scenario may vary

b.      If end-to-end failure of one of these paths is detected while the =
other one remains alive, traffic will be carried across the live path

c.       If end-to-end failure of both paths is detected (e.g., if the fin=
al destination node fails, or if the network is partitioned), this is reco=
gnized as an unrecoverable failure.

>From my POV the combination of local repair and end-to-end protection for =
SR paths is one of a few possibilities to protect such paths against failu=
res of nodes and/or links that have been specified in their explicit route=
s. (Another option has been described in Node Protection for SR-TE Paths<h=
ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-node-protection-for-sr-te-pa=
ths-00>, but this draft has expired).

Do I miss something substantial?

Regards,
Sasha

Office: +972-39266302
Cell:      +972-549266302
Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com


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<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi all,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have a belated (but hopefully late is still bette=
r than never) comment on path protection as defined in Section 2 of the
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-u=
se-cases/?include_text=3D1">
draft</a>.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This second para in this section says:<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;paddi=
ng:8.0pt 8.0pt 8.0pt 8.0pt;background:#FFFDF5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:7.9pt;background:#FFFDF5;wor=
d-break:break-all;border:none;padding:0cm">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:=
black">&nbsp;&nbsp; A first protection strategy consists in excluding any =
local repair<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:7.9pt;background:#FFFDF5;wor=
d-break:break-all;border:none;padding:0cm">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:=
black">&nbsp;&nbsp; but instead use end-to-end path protection where each =
SPRING path is<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:7.9pt;background:#FFFDF5;wor=
d-break:break-all;border:none;padding:0cm">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:=
black">&nbsp;&nbsp; protected by a second disjoint SPRING path.&nbsp; In t=
his case local<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:7.9pt;background:#FFFDF5;wor=
d-break:break-all;border:none;padding:0cm">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:=
black">&nbsp;&nbsp; protection MUST NOT be used.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">First of all, I do not think that RFC 2119 language=
=20should be used in Informational documents, especially in the documents =
that describe use cases.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition, I specifically disagree with the quote=
d statement above, because, from my POV:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 lev=
el1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span st=
yle=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Local repair and e=
nd-to-end path protection can be combined for the same path<o:p></o:p></p>=

<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 lev=
el1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span st=
yle=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Such a combination=
 may be beneficial for the operators.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">One possible way to combine the two is described be=
low:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 lev=
el1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">1.<span sty=
le=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>A pair of SR paths is set=
 up between the given two nodes &#8211; later referred to as source and de=
stination - &nbsp;in the network. These paths are &#8220;SR-disjoint&#8221=
; in the sense that their &#8220;explicit routes&#8221; &nbsp;do not have =
any
 common elements, be they nodes or adjacencies, with exclusion of the fina=
l destination<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 lev=
el1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">2.<span sty=
le=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Local repair for these pa=
ths is enabled in the network. It is triggered by locally observed events =
(link failures etc.), applied by the nodes adjacent to the failure and gua=
rantees that, in the case of a link or
 node failure that is not specified in the explicit route, traffic along t=
he affected path would be restored within &lt;X&gt; milliseconds<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 lev=
el1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">3.<span sty=
le=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>End-to-end liveness monit=
oring is enabled for the two SR paths, and detects end-to-end failures of =
these paths within &lt;Y&gt; milliseconds where Y &gt;&gt; X. In other wor=
ds, end-to-end liveness monitoring for these paths
 will ignore any failures that local repair can fix, but will detect failu=
res that cannot be locally repaired (e.g., failures of nodes or links that=
 have been specified in the explicit route of one of the paths<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 lev=
el1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">4.<span sty=
le=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>End-to-end liveness monit=
oring triggers end-to-end path protection to be applied by the source node=
 in the following way:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.=
0pt;mso-list:l1 level2 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">a.<span style=3D"font=
:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>If it recognizes both pat=
hs as alive, one of them will carry the customer traffic, while the other =
one will be idle. The rules for selecting the active path in this scenario=
 may vary<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.=
0pt;mso-list:l1 level2 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">b.<span style=3D"font=
:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>If end-to-end failure of =
one of these paths is detected while the other one remains alive, traffic =
will be carried across the live path<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.=
0pt;mso-list:l1 level2 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">c.<span style=3D"font=
:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>If end-to-end failure of =
both paths is detected (e.g., if the final destination node fails, or if t=
he network is partitioned), this is recognized as an unrecoverable failure=
.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">From my POV the combination of local repair and end=
-to-end protection for SR paths is one of a few possibilities to protect s=
uch paths against failures of nodes and/or links that have been specified =
in their explicit routes. (Another option
 has been described in <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-=
spring-node-protection-for-sr-te-paths-00">
<span style=3D"color:#0563C1">Node Protection for SR-TE Paths</span></a>, =
but this draft has expired).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Do I miss something substantial?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sasha<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Office: &#43;972-39266302<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cell:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;972-549266=
302<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Email:&nbsp;&nbsp; Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<br clear=3D"both">
__________________________________________________________________________=
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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>, "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>, "draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [spring] Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/vnj0MP38EeOQZf6aWtnZNCnJ9j4>
Subject: Re: [spring] Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution
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Hi all,
I concur with Eric that the only reasonable default for SR over MPLS (and =
for MPLS in general) should be "No PHP".
Specifically, from my POV, if a SR-capable node with SGB base <B> and Node=
 SID <S> receives a labeled packet with top label <B+S>, this label MUST b=
e terminated regardless of whether the node did or did not advertise PHP.

I wonder whether this has ever been explicitly specified in one of the SR =
documents.

Do I miss something?

Regards,
Sasha

Office: +972-39266302
Cell:      +972-549266302
Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric C Rosen
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 5:27 PM
To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com>; Shraddha Hegde <shraddha=
@juniper.net>; draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org
Cc: spring@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution=


On 5/4/2017 2:35 PM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote:


When G forwards the packet to A, because A has not advertised the=20prefix=
-SID (but is SR capable) we do not know whether it wants PHP or not - so w=
e have to make an assumption.
Default MPLS behavior is to assume PHP.

I'm not sure why you think there is such a thing as "default MPLS behavior=
" in this regard.  In conventional MPLS, when a node advertises the bindin=
g of a label to a FEC, PHP will not occur unless the advertised label is I=
mplicit NULL.   If you advertise a different label, you don't get PHP.

If there were any such thing as a default behavior for MPLS, it wouldn't m=
ake any sense for PHP to be the default behavior.   You can only advertise=
 Implicit NULL if you know that the packet can be properly processed after=
 the top label is popped off.  Whether PHP will give the right result is a=
pplication-specific.  So if there were a default behavior, it would have t=
o be "don't do PHP".  But of course MPLS has no need of such a default beh=
avior, because each node advertises its own labels.

Since the segment routing architecture allows cases where you don't know w=
hether=20the next hop wants you to pop the stack or not, segment routing n=
eeds to have a default, and the only sensible default is "don't do PHP".  =
This should be stated in whatever document discusses the use of the MPLS d=
ata plane for segment routing.  I don't see that there is any issue for th=
e MPLS WG.


If A does not want PHP then it would have to advertise the prefix SID so i=
t could specify desired behavior using P/E flags.

A default of "do PHP" doesn't seem sensible, as it may result in the expos=
ure of a label at a node that cannot process it properly.



Historically,  MPLS implementations have chosen a default behavior (equiva=
lent to P and E flags =3D 0). Some implementations provide knobs to overri=
de this behavior.

I wonder if you're thinking about the case where the next hop has advertis=
ed Implicit NULL for a particular FEC, but the current hop actually uses E=
xplicit NULL in order to have a place to put the TC field, which would oth=
erwise be lost when PHP is done.  That doesn't really seem relevant to the=
 issue that Shraddha raised.


If your concern is that there is not an explicit definition of default PHP=
/Explicit NULL behavior, then I think this needs to be directed at the MPL=
S WG.

I think this is incorrect, as explained above.


I do not claim to be an MPLS expert, but I have found these references:

RFC 3036 Section 6

"-  Section 2.16 of the MPLS architecture [RFC3031] requires that
         the initial label distribution protocol negotiation between
         peer LSRs enable each LSR to determine whether its peer is
         capable of popping the label stack.  This version of LDP
         assumes that LSRs support label popping for all link types
         except ATM and Frame Relay.  A future version may specify means
         to make this determination part of the session initiation
         negotiation."


Well, you don't have to be an MPLS expert to notice that RFC3036 was obsol=
eted ten years ago ;-)

In any event, the above quote is not relevant.  It simply says that when u=
sing LDP, an LSR may assume, for most data link types, that an LDP peer is=
 capable of popping the top label off the stack.  Thus it is allowable to =
advertise to the peer a binding of Implicit NULL to a FEC.  This is an iss=
ue for LDP, but there is no way to apply the quoted passage to segment rou=
ting.

This really needs to be addressed in some SPRING draft or other.

__________________________________________________________________________=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A">Hi all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A">I concur with Eric that the only re=
asonable default for SR over MPLS (and for MPLS in general) should be &#82=
20;No PHP&#8221;.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A">Specifically, from my POV, if a SR-=
capable node with SGB base &lt;B&gt; and Node SID &lt;S&gt; receives a lab=
eled packet with top label &lt;B&#43;S&gt;, this label MUST be terminated
<b><i>regardless of whether the node did or did not advertise PHP</i></b>.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A">I wonder whether this has ever been=
 explicitly specified in one of the SR documents.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A">Do I miss something?<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A">Sasha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A">Office: &#43;972-39266302<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A">Cell:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 &#43;972-549266302<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A">Email:&nbsp;&nbsp; Alexander.Vainsh=
tein@ecitele.com<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm=
 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style=3D=
"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowt=
ext"> spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Eric C Rosen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 10, 2017 5:27 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) &lt;ginsberg@cisco.com&gt;; Shraddha He=
gde &lt;shraddha@juniper.net&gt;; draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ie=
tf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> spring@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-res=
olution<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 5/4/2017 2:35 PM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote:=
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">When G forwards the packet to A, be=
cause A has not advertised the prefix-SID (but is SR capable) we do not kn=
ow whether it wants PHP or not &#8211; so we have to make
 an assumption.</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Default MPLS behavior is to assume =
PHP.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
I'm not sure why you think there is such a thing as &quot;default MPLS beh=
avior&quot; in this regard.&nbsp; In conventional MPLS, when a node advert=
ises the binding of a label to a FEC, PHP will not occur unless the advert=
ised label is Implicit NULL.&nbsp;&nbsp; If you advertise a
 different label, you don't get PHP.<br>
<br>
If there were any such thing as a default behavior for MPLS, it wouldn't m=
ake any sense for PHP to be the default behavior.&nbsp;&nbsp; You can only=
 advertise Implicit NULL if you know that the packet can be properly proce=
ssed after the top label is popped off.&nbsp; Whether
 PHP will give the right result is application-specific.&nbsp; So if there=
 were a default behavior, it would have to be &quot;don't do PHP&quot;.&nb=
sp; But of course MPLS has no need of such a default behavior, because eac=
h node advertises its own labels.<br>
<br>
Since the segment routing architecture allows cases where you don't know w=
hether the next hop wants you to pop the stack or not, segment routing nee=
ds to have a default, and the only sensible default is &quot;don't do PHP&=
quot;.&nbsp; This should be stated in whatever document
 discusses the use of the MPLS data plane for segment routing.&nbsp; I don=
't see that=20there is any issue for the MPLS WG.<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">If A does not want PHP then it woul=
d have to advertise the prefix SID so it could specify desired behavior us=
ing P/E flags.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
A default of &quot;do PHP&quot; doesn't seem sensible, as it may result in=
 the exposure of a label at a node that cannot process it properly.&nbsp;
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Historically, &nbsp;MPLS implementa=
tions have chosen a default behavior (equivalent to P and E flags =3D 0). =
Some implementations provide knobs to override this behavior.</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
I wonder if you're thinking about the case where the next hop has advertis=
ed Implicit NULL for a particular FEC, but the current hop actually uses E=
xplicit NULL in order to have a place to put the TC field, which would oth=
erwise be lost when PHP is done.&nbsp; That
 doesn't really seem relevant to the issue that Shraddha raised.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">If your concern is that there is no=
t an explicit definition of default PHP/Explicit NULL behavior, then I thi=
nk this needs to be directed at the MPLS WG.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
I think this is incorrect, as explained above.<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I do not claim to be an MPLS expert=
, but I have found these references:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">RFC 3036 Section 6</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&#8220;-&nbsp; Section 2.16 of the =
MPLS architecture [RFC3031] requires that</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; the initial label distribution protocol negotiation between<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; peer LSRs enable each LSR to determine whether its peer is</=
span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; capable of popping the label stack.&nbsp; This version of LD=
P</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; assumes that LSRs support label popping for all link types</=
span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; except ATM and Frame Relay.&nbsp; A future version may speci=
fy means</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; to make this determination part of the session initiation</s=
pan><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; negotiation.&#8221;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Well, you don't have to be an MPLS expert to notice that RFC3036 was obsol=
eted ten years ago ;-)<br>
<br>
In any event, the above quote is not relevant.&nbsp; It simply says that w=
hen using LDP, an LSR may assume, for most data link types, that an LDP pe=
er is capable of popping the top label off the stack.&nbsp; Thus it is all=
owable to advertise to the peer a binding of
 Implicit NULL to a FEC.&nbsp; This is an issue for LDP, but there is no w=
ay to apply the quoted passage to segment routing.<br>
<br>
This really needs to be addressed in some SPRING draft or other.<o:p></o:p=
></p>
</div>
<br clear=3D"both">
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Subject: Re: [spring] Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution
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--------------8FBC4EFDDE207DBF17C0EF0F
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On 5/11/2017 7:30 AM, Alexander Vainshtein wrote:
> Specifically, from my POV, if a SR-capable node with SGB base <B> and 
> Node SID <S> receives a labeled packet with top label <B+S>, this 
> label MUST be terminated */regardless of whether the node did or did 
> not advertise PHP/*.

This seems like it might be too strong a requirement.  If the node is 
expecting PHP, I don't think it is reasonable to expect it to set up its 
data plane forwarding structures to handle both the PHP and the non-PHP 
case.

We might also question the statement that Les made: "[if] there is no 
advertisement of P/E for any of the destinations. It must follow a 
default behavior [when deciding whether to use PHP]".

Proper operation of the system seems to require that everyone knows when 
to do PHP and when not to do it.  If all the progamming of the data 
plane is done by a controller, it has to program the nodes 
consistently.  If the programming of the data plane is done by a control 
plane, and control plane errors or config errors cause inconsistent 
programming of the data plane, it would be nice if there were some way 
of detecting this and perhaps taking some deterministic remedial 
action.  While the scenario under discussion is not, strictly speaking, 
a "SID conflict", it does have a strong resemblance to the SID conflict 
case, in that the control plane is advertising an inconsistency that is 
likely to break things.



--------------8FBC4EFDDE207DBF17C0EF0F
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    On 5/11/2017 7:30 AM, Alexander Vainshtein wrote:<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:AM4PR03MB17132125F7F77D7D0D4B19DD9DED0@AM4PR03MB1713.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com"
      type="cite"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A">Specifically,
        from my POV, if a SR-capable node with SGB base &lt;B&gt; and
        Node SID &lt;S&gt; receives a labeled packet with top label
        &lt;B+S&gt;, this label MUST be terminated
        <b><i>regardless of whether the node did or did not advertise
            PHP</i></b>.</span></blockquote>
    <br>
    This seems like it might be too strong a requirement. If the node
    is expecting PHP, I don't think it is reasonable to expect it to set
    up its data plane forwarding structures to handle both the PHP and
    the non-PHP case. <br>
    <br>
    We might also question the statement that Les made: "[if] <span
      style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">there is no
      advertisement of P/E for any of the destinations. It must follow a
      default behavior [when deciding whether to use PHP]".<br>
    </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><br>
    </span>Proper operation of the system seems to require that everyone
    knows when to do PHP and when not to do it. If all the progamming
    of the data plane is done by a controller, it has to program the
    nodes consistently. If the programming of the data plane is done by
    a control plane, and control plane errors or config errors cause
    inconsistent programming of the data plane, it would be nice if
    there were some way of detecting this and perhaps taking some
    deterministic remedial action. While the scenario under discussion
    is not, strictly speaking, a "SID conflict", it does have a strong
    resemblance to the SID conflict case, in that the control plane is
    advertising an inconsistency that is likely to break things.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------8FBC4EFDDE207DBF17C0EF0F--


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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>, Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>,  "draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org>
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Eric -

First I want to say that this input is exactly what I was hoping to get.
Thanx.

We also had concluded that the issue of default PHP behavior is applicable =
to SR-MPLS precisely because  advertisements are globally scoped.  As it is=
 possible in some circumstances (SRMS advertisement on behalf of an SR capa=
ble node is the most practical example) that explicit indication of the des=
ired PHP behavior is not advertised a default behavior is required.

We are assuming a default behavior of PHP for SR-MPLS. If folks believe thi=
s requires explicit specification I would propose language similar to the f=
ollowing:

"When Segment Routing is instantiated over the MPLS data plane the penultim=
ate node performs the NEXT operation (i.e., MPLS pop) unless a specific ind=
ication to do otherwise is advertised by the ultimate node."

As to why we are choosing PHP rather than UHP as the default, it is our bel=
ief that most of the platforms which support MPLS today have been implement=
ed to take advantage of the optimizations that PHP affords. In some cases i=
t may even be true that UHP is not supported at all. Of course if UHP is re=
quired prefix-SID advertisements provide the means to indicate this.

I hope this resolves the issue.

(NOTE: I will discuss the issue of anycast advertisements w/wo a SID in a s=
eparate email)

   Les

From: Eric C Rosen [mailto:erosen@juniper.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 7:27 AM
To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg); Shraddha Hegde; draft-ietf-spring-conflict-res=
olution@ietf.org
Cc: spring@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

On 5/4/2017 2:35 PM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote:


When G forwards the packet to A, because A has not advertised the prefix-SI=
D (but is SR capable) we do not know whether it wants PHP or not - so we ha=
ve to make an assumption.
Default MPLS behavior is to assume PHP.

I'm not sure why you think there is such a thing as "default MPLS behavior"=
 in this regard.  In conventional MPLS, when a node advertises the binding =
of a label to a FEC, PHP will not occur unless the advertised label is Impl=
icit NULL.   If you advertise a different label, you don't get PHP.

If there were any such thing as a default behavior for MPLS, it wouldn't ma=
ke any sense for PHP to be the default behavior.   You can only advertise I=
mplicit NULL if you know that the packet can be properly processed after th=
e top label is popped off.  Whether PHP will give the right result is appli=
cation-specific.  So if there were a default behavior, it would have to be =
"don't do PHP".  But of course MPLS has no need of such a default behavior,=
 because each node advertises its own labels.

Since the segment routing architecture allows cases where you don't know wh=
ether the next hop wants you to pop the stack or not, segment routing needs=
 to have a default, and the only sensible default is "don't do PHP".  This =
should be stated in whatever document discusses the use of the MPLS data pl=
ane for segment routing.  I don't see that there is any issue for the MPLS =
WG.


If A does not want PHP then it would have to advertise the prefix SID so it=
 could specify desired behavior using P/E flags.

A default of "do PHP" doesn't seem sensible, as it may result in the exposu=
re of a label at a node that cannot process it properly.



Historically,  MPLS implementations have chosen a default behavior (equival=
ent to P and E flags =3D 0). Some implementations provide knobs to override=
 this behavior.

I wonder if you're thinking about the case where the next hop has advertise=
d Implicit NULL for a particular FEC, but the current hop actually uses Exp=
licit NULL in order to have a place to put the TC field, which would otherw=
ise be lost when PHP is done.  That doesn't really seem relevant to the iss=
ue that Shraddha raised.


If your concern is that there is not an explicit definition of default PHP/=
Explicit NULL behavior, then I think this needs to be directed at the MPLS =
WG.

I think this is incorrect, as explained above.


I do not claim to be an MPLS expert, but I have found these references:

RFC 3036 Section 6

"-  Section 2.16 of the MPLS architecture [RFC3031] requires that
         the initial label distribution protocol negotiation between
         peer LSRs enable each LSR to determine whether its peer is
         capable of popping the label stack.  This version of LDP
         assumes that LSRs support label popping for all link types
         except ATM and Frame Relay.  A future version may specify means
         to make this determination part of the session initiation
         negotiation."


Well, you don't have to be an MPLS expert to notice that RFC3036 was obsole=
ted ten years ago ;-)

In any event, the above quote is not relevant.  It simply says that when us=
ing LDP, an LSR may assume, for most data link types, that an LDP peer is c=
apable of popping the top label off the stack.  Thus it is allowable to adv=
ertise to the peer a binding of Implicit NULL to a FEC.  This is an issue f=
or LDP, but there is no way to apply the quoted passage to segment routing.

This really needs to be addressed in some SPRING draft or other.

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Eric -<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">First I want to say that =
this input is exactly what I was hoping to get.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thanx.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">We also had concluded tha=
t the issue of default PHP behavior is applicable to SR-MPLS precisely beca=
use &nbsp;advertisements are globally scoped.&nbsp; As it is possible
 in some circumstances (SRMS advertisement on behalf of an SR capable node =
is the most practical example) that explicit indication of the desired PHP =
behavior is not advertised a default behavior is required.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">We are assuming a default=
 behavior of PHP for SR-MPLS. If folks believe this requires explicit speci=
fication I would propose language similar to the following:<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><i><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F4=
97D">&quot;When Segment Routing is instantiated over the MPLS data plane th=
e penultimate node performs the NEXT operation (i.e., MPLS pop)
 unless a specific indication to do otherwise is advertised by the ultimate=
 node.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">As to why we are choosing=
 PHP rather than UHP as the default, it is our belief that most of the plat=
forms which support MPLS today have been implemented to
 take advantage of the optimizations that PHP affords. In some cases it may=
 even be true that UHP is not supported at all. Of course if UHP is require=
d prefix-SID advertisements provide the means to indicate this.<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I hope this resolves the =
issue.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">(NOTE: I will discuss the=
 issue of anycast advertisements w/wo a SID in a separate email)<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp; Les<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> Eric C Rosen [mailto:erosen@juniper.net]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 10, 2017 7:27 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Les Ginsberg (ginsberg); Shraddha Hegde; draft-ietf-spring-confl=
ict-resolution@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> spring@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-reso=
lution<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 5/4/2017 2:35 PM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote:<=
br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">When G forwards the packe=
t to A, because A has not advertised the prefix-SID (but is SR capable) we =
do not know whether it wants PHP or not &#8211; so we have to
 make an assumption.</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Default MPLS behavior is =
to assume PHP.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
I'm not sure why you think there is such a thing as &quot;default MPLS beha=
vior&quot; in this regard.&nbsp; In conventional MPLS, when a node advertis=
es the binding of a label to a FEC, PHP will not occur unless the advertise=
d label is Implicit NULL.&nbsp;&nbsp; If you advertise a
 different label, you don't get PHP.<br>
<br>
If there were any such thing as a default behavior for MPLS, it wouldn't ma=
ke any sense for PHP to be the default behavior.&nbsp;&nbsp; You can only a=
dvertise Implicit NULL if you know that the packet can be properly processe=
d after the top label is popped off.&nbsp; Whether
 PHP will give the right result is application-specific.&nbsp; So if there =
were a default behavior, it would have to be &quot;don't do PHP&quot;.&nbsp=
; But of course MPLS has no need of such a default behavior, because each n=
ode advertises its own labels.<br>
<br>
Since the segment routing architecture allows cases where you don't know wh=
ether the next hop wants you to pop the stack or not, segment routing needs=
 to have a default, and the only sensible default is &quot;don't do PHP&quo=
t;.&nbsp; This should be stated in whatever document
 discusses the use of the MPLS data plane for segment routing.&nbsp; I don'=
t see that there is any issue for the MPLS WG.<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If A does not want PHP th=
en it would have to advertise the prefix SID so it could specify desired be=
havior using P/E flags.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
A default of &quot;do PHP&quot; doesn't seem sensible, as it may result in =
the exposure of a label at a node that cannot process it properly.&nbsp;
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Historically, &nbsp;MPLS =
implementations have chosen a default behavior (equivalent to P and E flags=
 =3D 0). Some implementations provide knobs to override this behavior.</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
I wonder if you're thinking about the case where the next hop has advertise=
d Implicit NULL for a particular FEC, but the current hop actually uses Exp=
licit NULL in order to have a place to put the TC field, which would otherw=
ise be lost when PHP is done.&nbsp; That
 doesn't really seem relevant to the issue that Shraddha raised.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If your concern is that t=
here is not an explicit definition of default PHP/Explicit NULL behavior, t=
hen I think this needs to be directed at the MPLS WG.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
I think this is incorrect, as explained above.<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">I do not claim to be an M=
PLS expert, but I have found these references:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">RFC 3036 Section 6</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&#8220;-&nbsp; Section 2.=
16 of the MPLS architecture [RFC3031] requires that</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the initial label distribution protocol negotiation=
 between</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; peer LSRs enable each LSR to determine whether its =
peer is</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; capable of popping the label stack.&nbsp; This vers=
ion of LDP</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; assumes that LSRs support label popping for all lin=
k types</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; except ATM and Frame Relay.&nbsp; A future version =
may specify means</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to make this determination part of the session init=
iation</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; negotiation.&#8221;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Well, you don't have to be an MPLS expert to notice that RFC3036 was obsole=
ted ten years ago ;-)<br>
<br>
In any event, the above quote is not relevant.&nbsp; It simply says that wh=
en using LDP, an LSR may assume, for most data link types, that an LDP peer=
 is capable of popping the top label off the stack.&nbsp; Thus it is allowa=
ble to advertise to the peer a binding of
 Implicit NULL to a FEC.&nbsp; This is an issue for LDP, but there is no wa=
y to apply the quoted passage to segment routing.<br>
<br>
This really needs to be addressed in some SPRING draft or other.<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>, "draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: Anycast and SID Conflict Resolution
Thread-Index: AdLLfQvLPPmZZz8IRSuxQBafhaLTFg==
Date: Sat, 13 May 2017 00:28:23 +0000
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Subject: [spring] Anycast and SID Conflict Resolution
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(Changing subject - was "Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resoluti=
on")

Shraddha/Eric -

Although the conflict resolution draft is not yet in its final form, there =
are some basic principles which have not changed across the various version=
s:

1)Who advertised a SID plays no role in conflict resolution
2)All nodes agree on which mapping entries are Active(MAY be used in forwar=
ding) and which are Inactive (MUST NOT be used in forwarding)
3)Whether the Active entry is consistent w local configuration is not relev=
ant

The scenario you describe below:

Node X advertises address A with SID S
Node Y advertises address A with no SID

This is not a conflict.
It may represent a misconfiguration - but this does not matter to conflict =
resolution.

How could this legitimately happen?
The operator may be introducing (or withdrawing) use of an SRMS. Addition o=
r removal of local SID configuration may simply be in transition.

How could this be a misconfiguration?
Address A was not intended to be an anycast address and was incorrectly con=
figured on Node Y.

(Other possibilities exist)

The conflict resolution procedures make no attempt to determine which entri=
es are "right" and which entries are "wrong". A database is built of all ad=
vertised mapping entries, the conflict resolution policy is applied, and a =
set of Active/Inactive entries result. All SR capable nodes MUST use that o=
utput when programming forwarding entries. All that conflict resolution is =
trying to achieve is consistent behavior in the forwarding plane.

   Les


From: Shraddha Hegde [mailto:shraddha@juniper.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 9:58 AM
To: draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org
Cc: spring@ietf.org
Subject: Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution

Hi Authors,


When there are multiple anycast IP addresses assigned to different nodes an=
d one or more nodes
do not advertise a Prefix SID for that anycast address but other nodes adve=
rtise a prefix-sid, there is a possibility
of different implementations behaving differently with respect to programmi=
ng the labelled routes.

This scenario should be considered as a prefix conflict and the behavior sh=
ould be addressed in the draft.
I suggest to update section 3.2.1 with the relevant text to describe the be=
havior.


Rgds
Shraddha


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">(Changing subject &#8211;=
 was &#8220;Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution&#8221;)<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Shraddha/Eric &#8211;<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Although the conflict res=
olution draft is not yet in its final form, there are some basic principles=
 which have not changed across the various versions:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">1)Who advertised a SID pl=
ays no role in conflict resolution<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">2)All nodes agree on whic=
h mapping entries are Active(MAY be used in forwarding) and which are Inact=
ive (MUST NOT be used in forwarding)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">3)Whether the Active entr=
y is consistent w local configuration is not relevant<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The scenario you describe=
 below:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Node X advertises address=
 A with SID S<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Node Y advertises address=
 A with no SID<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This is not a conflict.<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">It may represent a miscon=
figuration &#8211; but this does not matter to conflict resolution.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">How could this legitimate=
ly happen?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The operator may be intro=
ducing (or withdrawing) use of an SRMS. Addition or removal of local SID co=
nfiguration may simply be in transition.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">How could this be a misco=
nfiguration?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Address A was not intende=
d to be an anycast address and was incorrectly configured on Node Y.<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">(Other possibilities exis=
t)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The conflict resolution p=
rocedures make no attempt to determine which entries are &#8220;right&#8221=
; and which entries are &#8220;wrong&#8221;. A database is built of all adv=
ertised
 mapping entries, the conflict resolution policy is applied, and a set of A=
ctive/Inactive entries result. All SR capable nodes MUST use that output wh=
en programming forwarding entries. All that conflict resolution is trying t=
o achieve is consistent behavior
 in the forwarding plane.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp; Les<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Shraddha=
 Hegde [mailto:shraddha@juniper.net]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 03, 2017 9:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> spring@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi Authors,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">When there are multiple anycast IP addr=
esses assigned to different nodes and one or more nodes<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">do not advertise a Prefix SID for that =
anycast address but other nodes advertise a prefix-sid, there is a possibil=
ity<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">of different implementations behaving d=
ifferently with respect to programming the labelled routes.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">This scenario should be considered as a=
 prefix conflict and the behavior should be addressed in the draft.<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">I suggest to update section 3.2.1 with =
the relevant text to describe the behavior.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: "draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>, "Michael Gorokhovsky" <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>, Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>, Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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Date: Mon, 15 May 2017 08:11:50 +0000
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 16:18:44 +0800
Message-ID: <CA+RyBmVhQPczkNPM3e0pV7XYWb_KZwV+5VebYxefVS3T5K3NWg@mail.gmail.com>
To: draft-bardhan-spring-poi-sr-oam@ietf.org
Cc: spring@ietf.org
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/wXu0zJGUmzM9E3tl-UgXizF6jCo>
Subject: [spring] Requirements towards OAM in Segment Routing network
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--001a113d75a6fd2ffc054f9fd1a9
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Dear Authors,
I'd like to bring your attention to the WG document OAM Requirements for
Segment Routing Network
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-sr-oam-requirement-03>. I
think that many requirements listed in your document are common
requirements for OAM in Segment Routing network listed in the above
mentioned document.

Kind regards,
Greg

--001a113d75a6fd2ffc054f9fd1a9
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear Authors,<div>I&#39;d like to bring your attention to =
the WG document=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:1em"><a href=3D"https://tools=
.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-sr-oam-requirement-03">OAM Requirements fo=
r Segment Routing Network</a>. I think that many requirements listed in you=
r document are common requirements for OAM in Segment Routing network liste=
d in the above mentioned document.</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:1em"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:1em">Kind regards,</s=
pan></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:1em">Greg</span></div></div>

--001a113d75a6fd2ffc054f9fd1a9--


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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>
CC: "draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>, "Michael Gorokhovsky" <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>, Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>, Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>
CC: "draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>, "Michael Gorokhovsky" <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>, Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>, Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Cc: Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>,  Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>,  "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>, Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>,  Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>,  "draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org>,  "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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Hi Sasha,

You said:

 "Path protection cannot be applied to shortest traffic paths so they must
rely on local protection"

What makes you think that way ?

Only one specific use case of SR is TE. And could even argue that it is not
the most important one.

Adding protection to shortest traffic paths with TILFA is a very valid use
case for SR.

Another one is use of SR for VPNs. End to end path will still be shortest
from IGP pov yet SR header will be present.

Cheers
R.


On May 16, 2017 4:31 AM, "Alexander Vainshtein" <
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:

> Stefano,
>
> Lots of thanks for a prompt response.
>
>
>
> A couple of short comments if you do not mind:
>
>
>
> *Using 2119 language in a "use cases" document*:
>
> 1.       Going back to the source I see that =E2=80=9CMUST NOT=E2=80=A6 m=
ean that the
> definition is an absolute prohibition of the specification=E2=80=9D
>
> 2.       I agree that the use case document defines which scenarios
> should be addressed, but I do not see how it can impose an absolute
> prohibition on a certain scenario.
>
>
>
> *Little sense link protection has in the case of path protection*:
>
> 1.       This was definitely correct for traditional traffic engineering
> because the =E2=80=9Cshortest traffic paths=E2=80=9D (e.g., LDL PSPs) cou=
ld be easily
> differentiated from the =E2=80=9Cengineered traffic paths=E2=80=9D.
>
> 2.       In addition, traditional local protection (e.g., MPLS FRR using
> RSVP-TE) could deal with link and node failures regardless of whether the
> failed link or node appeared in the ERO of the protected path.
>
> 3.       IMHO and FWIW, with SR  the situation is quite different:
>
> o   The shortest traffic paths not only coexist with engineered traffic
> paths: the latter are in many cases =E2=80=9Ctunneled=E2=80=9D within the=
 former.
>
> o   Path protection cannot be applied to shortest traffic paths so they
> must rely on local protection
>
> o   Local protection in the case of failure of a node or link that
> appears in the ERO of an engineered SR path is highly non-trivial at best=
,
> so path protection for the engineered LSPs looks like a preferred solutio=
n
> to me.
>
> I fully agree with you that the operators deploying SR should provide
> feedback on this point based on actual operational experience.
>
> Meanwhile I doubt that *a priori* declaring some use cases as absolutely
> prohibited is the right thing to do.
>
>
>
> My 2c,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) [mailto:sprevidi@cisco.com]
> Sent: Monday, May 15, 2017 11:12 AM
> To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> Cc: draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org; spring@ietf.org;
> Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>;
> Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>; Rotem Cohen <
> Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
> Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in
> draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 11, 2017, at 12:04 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Hi all,
>
> > I have a belated (but hopefully late is still better than never) commen=
t
> on path protection as defined in Section 2 of the draft.
>
> >
>
> > This second para in this section says:
>
> >    A first protection strategy consists in excluding any local repair
>
> >
>
> >    but instead use end-to-end path protection where each SPRING path
>
> > is
>
> >
>
> >    protected by a second disjoint SPRING path.  In this case local
>
> >
>
> >    protection MUST NOT be used.
>
> >
>
> > First of all, I do not think that RFC 2119 language should be used in
> Informational documents, especially in the documents that describe use
> cases.
>
>
>
>
>
> this document is also a requirements document for the resiliency use-case=
.
> RFC2119 terminology is perfectly usable and even more, it adds clarity on
> what the solution is expected to provide.
>
>
>
>
>
> > In addition, I specifically disagree with the quoted statement above,
> because, from my POV:
>
> > =C2=B7         Local repair and end-to-end path protection can be combi=
ned
> for the same path
>
> > =C2=B7         Such a combination may be beneficial for the operators.
>
>
>
>
>
> are you talking by experience or is it just something that came into your
> mind ? I=E2=80=99d like to hear from operators using a combination of pat=
h and link
> protection.
>
>
>
> This document has been deeply reviewed also by operators and it has been
> always obvious the little sense link protection has in case of path
> protection.
>
>
>
>
>
> > One possible way to combine the two is described below:
>
> >
>
> > 1.       A pair of SR paths is set up between the given two nodes =E2=
=80=93
> later referred to as source and destination -  in the network. These path=
s
> are =E2=80=9CSR-disjoint=E2=80=9D in the sense that their =E2=80=9Cexplic=
it routes=E2=80=9D  do not have
> any common elements, be they nodes or adjacencies, with exclusion of the
> final destination
>
> > 2.       Local repair for these paths is enabled in the network. It is
> triggered by locally observed events (link failures etc.), applied by the
> nodes adjacent to the failure and guarantees that, in the case of a link =
or
> node failure that is not specified in the explicit route, traffic along t=
he
> affected path would be restored within <X> milliseconds
>
> > 3.       End-to-end liveness monitoring is enabled for the two SR paths=
,
> and detects end-to-end failures of these paths within <Y> milliseconds
> where Y >> X. In other words, end-to-end liveness monitoring for these
> paths will ignore any failures that local repair can fix, but will detect
> failures that cannot be locally repaired (e.g., failures of nodes or link=
s
> that have been specified in the explicit route of one of the paths
>
> > 4.       End-to-end liveness monitoring triggers end-to-end path
> protection to be applied by the source node in the following way:
>
> > a.       If it recognizes both paths as alive, one of them will carry
> the customer traffic, while the other one will be idle. The rules for
> selecting the active path in this scenario may vary
>
> > b.      If end-to-end failure of one of these paths is detected while
> the other one remains alive, traffic will be carried across the live path
>
> > c.       If end-to-end failure of both paths is detected (e.g., if the
> final destination node fails, or if the network is partitioned), this is
> recognized as an unrecoverable failure.
>
> >
>
> > From my POV the combination of local repair and end-to-end protection
> for SR paths is one of a few possibilities to protect such paths against
> failures of nodes and/or links that have been specified in their explicit
> routes. (Another option has been described in Node Protection for SR-TE
> Paths, but this draft has expired).
>
> >
>
> > Do I miss something substantial?
>
>
>
>
>
> to my view you created a use-case that doesn=E2=80=99t bring much to the =
picture
> but I=E2=80=99d let operators to comment.
>
>
>
> s.
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
> > Regards,
>
> > Sasha
>
> >
>
> > Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> > Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> > Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ______________________________________________________________________
>
> > _____
>
> >
>
> > This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
>
> > information which is CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI
>
> > Telecom. If you have received this transmission in error, please
>
> > inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then delete the original and all
> copies thereof.
>
> > ______________________________________________________________________
>
> > _____ _______________________________________________
>
> > spring mailing list
>
> > spring@ietf.org
>
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
> delete the original
> and all copies thereof.
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>
>

--001a113efcf6b27bc1054fa04d3a
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<div dir=3D"auto">Hi Sasha,<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Yo=
u said:</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:15.6933px;font-family:&quot;courier new&quot;"><span style=3D"font=
-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:&quot;times ne=
w roman&quot;">=C2=A0&quot;</span></span><span style=3D"font-family:calibri=
,sans-serif;font-size:15.6933px">Path protection cannot be applied to short=
est traffic paths so they must rely on local protection&quot;</span><br></d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:calibri,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:15.6933px"><br></span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:=
calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15.6933px">What makes you think that way ?</sp=
an></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:calibri,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:15.6933px"><br></span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15.6933px">Only one specific use case of=
 SR is TE. And could even argue that it is not the most important one.</spa=
n></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:calibri,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:15.6933px"><br></span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15.6933px">Adding protection to shortest =
traffic paths with TILFA is a very valid use case for SR.</span></div><div =
dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15.693=
3px"><br></span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:calibri,=
sans-serif;font-size:15.6933px">Another one is use of SR for VPNs. End to e=
nd path will still be shortest from IGP pov yet SR header will be present.<=
/span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:calibri,sans-serif=
;font-size:15.6933px"><br></span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15.6933px">Cheers</span></div><div di=
r=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15.6933p=
x">R.</span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:calibri,sans=
-serif;font-size:15.6933px"><br></span></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extr=
a"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On May 16, 2017 4:31 AM, &quot;Alexander =
Vainshtein&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com">Al=
exander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"m_-425828515109578568WordSection1">
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">Stefano,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">Lots of thanks for a prompt =
response.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">A couple of short comments i=
f you do not mind:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText"><b><u>Using 2119 language in=
 a &quot;use cases&quot; document</u></b>:
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"=
>
<u></u><span>1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Going back to the source I se=
e that =E2=80=9CMUST NOT=E2=80=A6 mean that the definition is an absolute p=
rohibition of the specification=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"=
>
<u></u><span>2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>I agree that the use case doc=
ument defines which scenarios should be addressed, but I do not see how it =
can impose an absolute prohibition on a certain scenario.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText"><b><u>Little sense link prot=
ection has in the case of path protection</u></b>:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"=
>
<u></u><span>1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>This was definitely correct f=
or traditional traffic engineering because the =E2=80=9Cshortest traffic pa=
ths=E2=80=9D (e.g., LDL PSPs) could be easily differentiated from the =E2=
=80=9Cengineered traffic paths=E2=80=9D.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"=
>
<u></u><span>2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>In addition, traditional loca=
l protection (e.g., MPLS FRR using RSVP-TE) could deal with link and node f=
ailures regardless of whether the failed link or node appeared in the ERO o=
f the protected path.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"=
>
<u></u><span>3.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>IMHO and FWIW, with SR=C2=A0 =
the situation is quite different:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"=
>
<u></u><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span>o<span sty=
le=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>The shortest traffic p=
aths not only coexist with engineered traffic paths: the latter are in many=
 cases =E2=80=9Ctunneled=E2=80=9D within the former.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"=
>
<u></u><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span>o<span sty=
le=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Path protection cannot=
 be applied to shortest traffic paths so they must rely on local protection=
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"=
>
<u></u><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span>o<span sty=
le=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Local protection in th=
e case of failure of a node or link that appears in the ERO of an engineere=
d SR path is highly non-trivial at best, so path protection for the enginee=
red LSPs looks like a preferred
 solution to me.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt"=
>I fully agree with you that the operators deploying SR should provide feed=
back on this point based on actual operational experience.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt"=
>Meanwhile I doubt that <i>a priori</i> declaring some use cases as absolut=
ely prohibited is the right thing to do.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">My 2c,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">Sasha<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">Office: <a href=3D"tel:+972%=
203-926-6302" value=3D"+97239266302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a><u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" value=3D"+972549266302" target=
=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=
=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Va=
inshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">-----Original Message-----<b=
r>
From: Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:sprevidi@cisco.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">sprevidi@cisco.com</a>] <br>
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2017 11:12 AM<br>
To: Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele=
.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-resliency-<wbr>use-cases@ietf.org</a>; <a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>; Shell =
Nakash &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Sh=
ell.Nakash@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:M=
ichael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecite=
le.<wbr>com</a>&gt;; Sidd Aanand &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.=
com" target=3D"_blank">Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Ron Sdayoor &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Ron.Sdayoor@ecite=
le.com</a>&gt;; Rotem Cohen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com" =
target=3D"_blank">Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com</a>&gt;<br>
Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in dr=
aft-ietf-spring-resiliency-<wbr>use-cases</p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; On May 11, 2017, at 12:=
04 PM, Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecit=
ele.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:=
none">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; Hi all,<u></u><u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; I have a belated (but h=
opefully late is still better than never) comment on path protection as def=
ined in Section 2 of the draft.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt;=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; This second para in thi=
s section says:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A fir=
st protection strategy consists in excluding any local repair<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 but i=
nstead use end-to-end path protection where each SPRING path
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; is<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 prote=
cted by a second disjoint SPRING path.=C2=A0 In this case local<u></u><u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 prote=
ction MUST NOT be used.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; First of all, I do not =
think that RFC 2119 language should be used in Informational documents, esp=
ecially in the documents that describe use cases.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">this document is also a requ=
irements document for the resiliency use-case. RFC2119 terminology is perfe=
ctly usable and even more, it adds clarity on what the solution is expected=
 to provide.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; In addition, I specific=
ally disagree with the quoted statement above, because, from my POV:<u></u>=
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; =C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Local repair and end-to-end path protecti=
on can be combined for the same path<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; =C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Such a combination may be beneficial for =
the operators.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">are you talking by experienc=
e or is it just something that came into your mind ? I=E2=80=99d like to he=
ar from operators using a combination of path and link protection.<u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">This document has been deepl=
y reviewed also by operators and it has been always obvious the little sens=
e link protection has in case of path protection.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; One possible way to com=
bine the two is described below:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt;=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; 1.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A pair of SR paths is set up between the given two nodes =
=E2=80=93 later referred to as source and destination -=C2=A0 in the networ=
k. These paths are =E2=80=9CSR-disjoint=E2=80=9D in the sense that their =
=E2=80=9Cexplicit routes=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 do not have any common elements,
 be they nodes or adjacencies, with exclusion of the final destination<u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; 2.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Local repair for these paths is enabled in the network. It =
is triggered by locally observed events (link failures etc.), applied by th=
e nodes adjacent to the failure and guarantees that, in the case of a link =
or node failure
 that is not specified in the explicit route, traffic along the affected pa=
th would be restored within &lt;X&gt; milliseconds<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; 3.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 End-to-end liveness monitoring is enabled for the two SR pa=
ths, and detects end-to-end failures of these paths within &lt;Y&gt; millis=
econds where Y &gt;&gt; X. In other words, end-to-end liveness monitoring f=
or these paths will ignore
 any failures that local repair can fix, but will detect failures that cann=
ot be locally repaired (e.g., failures of nodes or links that have been spe=
cified in the explicit route of one of the paths<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; 4.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 End-to-end liveness monitoring triggers end-to-end path pro=
tection to be applied by the source node in the following way:<u></u><u></u=
></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If it recognizes both paths as alive, one of them will carr=
y the customer traffic, while the other one will be idle. The rules for sel=
ecting the active path in this scenario may vary<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 If end-to-end failure of one of these paths is detected while the=
 other one remains alive, traffic will be carried across the live path<u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; c.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If end-to-end failure of both paths is detected (e.g., if t=
he final destination node fails, or if the network is partitioned), this is=
 recognized as an unrecoverable failure.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt;=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; From my POV the combina=
tion of local repair and end-to-end protection for SR paths is one of a few=
 possibilities to protect such paths against failures of nodes and/or links=
 that have been specified in their explicit routes. (Another
 option has been described in Node Protection for SR-TE Paths, but this dra=
ft has expired).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt;=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; Do I miss something sub=
stantial?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">to my view you created a use=
-case that doesn=E2=80=99t bring much to the picture but I=E2=80=99d let op=
erators to comment.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">s.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt;=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; Regards,<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; Sasha<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt;=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; Office: <a href=3D"tel:=
+972%203-926-6302" value=3D"+97239266302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</=
a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" value=3D"+972549266302" tar=
get=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a h=
ref=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">Alexander.Vainshtein@=
ecitele.<wbr>com</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt;=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; _______________________=
_______<wbr>______________________________<wbr>__________<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; _____<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; This e-mail message is =
intended for the recipient only and contains
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; information which is CO=
NFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; Telecom. If you have re=
ceived this transmission in error, please
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<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; inform us by e-mail, ph=
one or fax, and then delete the original and all copies thereof.<u></u><u><=
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<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; _______________________=
_______<wbr>______________________________<wbr>__________<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; _____ _________________=
_____________<wbr>_________________<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; spring mailing list<u><=
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<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:sprin=
g@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decorati=
on:none">spring@ietf.org</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText">&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.=
ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" target=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/<wbr>listinfo/spring</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-425828515109578568MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<br clear=3D"both">
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is <br>
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
ved this <br>
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original <br>
and all copies thereof.<br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
</div>


<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
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<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
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<br></blockquote></div></div>

--001a113efcf6b27bc1054fa04d3a--


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From: <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>, "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org>, Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>, Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>, Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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From: Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal <muthu.arul@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 15:04:24 +0530
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To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Cc: "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>,  Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>,  Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>,  "draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org>,  Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>, Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>,  Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/QVxWjg-UxtVrFp0M8D0CGFj1hEo>
Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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Using end-to-end path protection together with local protection can result
in traffic loops. Consider the foll. topology:

B-----C
|    / \
|   /   \
|  /     \
| /       \D----+
A/              Z (CE)
 \         F----+
  \       /
   \     /
    \   /
     \E/

- All links are of equal cost.
- A, D and F are BGP peers.
- Z is a dual-homed CE.

A resolves its BGP next-hop D over the SR-TE tunnel T1.
T1: A->B, B->C, C->D (loosely routed)

Suppose A has enabled end-to-end path protection over tunnel T1 and B has
TI-LFA enabled, and the detection timers are configured as described in
your previous email. If the BC link goes down, B will immediately start
rerouting the traffic via A (in FRR fashion) creating a loop b/w A and B.

A solution would be to make the A-B link ineligible for TI-LFA backup
computation at B. However, managing this network-wide could become
operational expensive. Hence, deploying one of end-to-end path protection
or local protection with sufficiently short detection timers keeps things
simple, IMHO.

Regards,
Muthu

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 1:59 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 16, 2017 11:28 AM
> *To:* 'Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)' <sprevidi@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org; spring@ietf.org;
> Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>;
> Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>; Rotem Cohen <
> Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
> *Subject:* RE: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection
> in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
>
>
>
> Stefano,
>
> Lots of thanks for a prompt response.
>
>
>
> A couple of short comments if you do not mind:
>
>
>
> *Using 2119 language in a "use cases" document*:
>
> 1.       Going back to the source I see that =E2=80=9CMUST NOT=E2=80=A6 m=
ean that the
> definition is an absolute prohibition of the specification=E2=80=9D
>
> 2.       I agree that the use case document defines which scenarios
> should be addressed, but I do not see how it can impose an absolute
> prohibition on a certain scenario.
>
>
>
> *Little sense link protection has in the case of path protection*:
>
> 1.       This was definitely correct for traditional traffic engineering
> because the =E2=80=9Cshortest traffic paths=E2=80=9D (e.g., LDL PSPs) cou=
ld be easily
> differentiated from the =E2=80=9Cengineered traffic paths=E2=80=9D.
>
> 2.       In addition, traditional local protection (e.g., MPLS FRR using
> RSVP-TE) could deal with link and node failures regardless of whether the
> failed link or node appeared in the ERO of the protected path.
>
> 3.       IMHO and FWIW, with SR  the situation is quite different:
>
> o   The shortest traffic paths not only coexist with engineered traffic
> paths: the latter are in many cases =E2=80=9Ctunneled=E2=80=9D within the=
 former.
>
> o   Path protection cannot be applied to shortest traffic paths so they
> must rely on local protection
>
> o   Local protection in the case of failure of a node or link that
> appears in the ERO of an engineered SR path is highly non-trivial at best=
,
> so path protection for the engineered LSPs looks like a preferred solutio=
n
> to me.
>
> I fully agree with you that the operators deploying SR should provide
> feedback on this point based on actual operational experience.
>
> Meanwhile I doubt that *a priori* declaring some use cases as absolutely
> prohibited is the right thing to do.
>
>
>
> My 2c,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) [mailto:sprevidi@cisco.com
> <sprevidi@cisco.com>]
> Sent: Monday, May 15, 2017 11:12 AM
> To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> Cc: draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org; spring@ietf.org;
> Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>;
> Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>; Rotem Cohen <
> Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
> Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in
> draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 11, 2017, at 12:04 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Hi all,
>
> > I have a belated (but hopefully late is still better than never) commen=
t
> on path protection as defined in Section 2 of the draft.
>
> >
>
> > This second para in this section says:
>
> >    A first protection strategy consists in excluding any local repair
>
> >
>
> >    but instead use end-to-end path protection where each SPRING path
>
> > is
>
> >
>
> >    protected by a second disjoint SPRING path.  In this case local
>
> >
>
> >    protection MUST NOT be used.
>
> >
>
> > First of all, I do not think that RFC 2119 language should be used in
> Informational documents, especially in the documents that describe use
> cases.
>
>
>
>
>
> this document is also a requirements document for the resiliency use-case=
.
> RFC2119 terminology is perfectly usable and even more, it adds clarity on
> what the solution is expected to provide.
>
>
>
>
>
> > In addition, I specifically disagree with the quoted statement above,
> because, from my POV:
>
> > =C2=B7         Local repair and end-to-end path protection can be combi=
ned
> for the same path
>
> > =C2=B7         Such a combination may be beneficial for the operators.
>
>
>
>
>
> are you talking by experience or is it just something that came into your
> mind ? I=E2=80=99d like to hear from operators using a combination of pat=
h and link
> protection.
>
>
>
> This document has been deeply reviewed also by operators and it has been
> always obvious the little sense link protection has in case of path
> protection.
>
>
>
>
>
> > One possible way to combine the two is described below:
>
> >
>
> > 1.       A pair of SR paths is set up between the given two nodes =E2=
=80=93
> later referred to as source and destination -  in the network. These path=
s
> are =E2=80=9CSR-disjoint=E2=80=9D in the sense that their =E2=80=9Cexplic=
it routes=E2=80=9D  do not have
> any common elements, be they nodes or adjacencies, with exclusion of the
> final destination
>
> > 2.       Local repair for these paths is enabled in the network. It is
> triggered by locally observed events (link failures etc.), applied by the
> nodes adjacent to the failure and guarantees that, in the case of a link =
or
> node failure that is not specified in the explicit route, traffic along t=
he
> affected path would be restored within <X> milliseconds
>
> > 3.       End-to-end liveness monitoring is enabled for the two SR paths=
,
> and detects end-to-end failures of these paths within <Y> milliseconds
> where Y >> X. In other words, end-to-end liveness monitoring for these
> paths will ignore any failures that local repair can fix, but will detect
> failures that cannot be locally repaired (e.g., failures of nodes or link=
s
> that have been specified in the explicit route of one of the paths
>
> > 4.       End-to-end liveness monitoring triggers end-to-end path
> protection to be applied by the source node in the following way:
>
> > a.       If it recognizes both paths as alive, one of them will carry
> the customer traffic, while the other one will be idle. The rules for
> selecting the active path in this scenario may vary
>
> > b.      If end-to-end failure of one of these paths is detected while
> the other one remains alive, traffic will be carried across the live path
>
> > c.       If end-to-end failure of both paths is detected (e.g., if the
> final destination node fails, or if the network is partitioned), this is
> recognized as an unrecoverable failure.
>
> >
>
> > From my POV the combination of local repair and end-to-end protection
> for SR paths is one of a few possibilities to protect such paths against
> failures of nodes and/or links that have been specified in their explicit
> routes. (Another option has been described in Node Protection for SR-TE
> Paths, but this draft has expired).
>
> >
>
> > Do I miss something substantial?
>
>
>
>
>
> to my view you created a use-case that doesn=E2=80=99t bring much to the =
picture
> but I=E2=80=99d let operators to comment.
>
>
>
> s.
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
> > Regards,
>
> > Sasha
>
> >
>
> > Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> > Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> > Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ______________________________________________________________________
>
> > _____
>
> >
>
> > This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
>
> > information which is CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI
>
> > Telecom. If you have received this transmission in error, please
>
> > inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then delete the original and all
> copies thereof.
>
> > ______________________________________________________________________
>
> > _____ _______________________________________________
>
> > spring mailing list
>
> > spring@ietf.org
>
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
> delete the original
> and all copies thereof.
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>
>

--001a113d3594971f52054fa0e05d
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default"><div class=3D"gmail_default">=
<font face=3D"monospace, monospace">Using end-to-end path protection togeth=
er with local protection can result in traffic loops. Consider the foll. to=
pology:</font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"monospace, m=
onospace"><br></font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"monos=
pace, monospace">B-----C =C2=A0=C2=A0</font></div><div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt"><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">| =C2=A0 =C2=A0/ \</font></div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">| =C2=A0 / =C2=
=A0 \=C2=A0</font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"monospac=
e, monospace">| =C2=A0/ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 \</font></div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault"><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">| / =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 \D----+=
=C2=A0</font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"monospace, mo=
nospace">A/ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Z (CE)</font></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0=
\ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 F----+=C2=A0</font></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
default"><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 \ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
/</font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"monospace, monospa=
ce">=C2=A0 =C2=A0\ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /</font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 \ =C2=A0 /=C2=A0</font><=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0\E/</font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><span style=
=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace"><br></span></div><div class=3D"gmail_d=
efault"><span style=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace">- All links are of =
equal cost.</span><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"mono=
space, monospace">- A, D and F are BGP peers.</font></div><div class=3D"gma=
il_default"><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">- Z is a dual-homed CE.</fo=
nt></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"monospace, monospace"><=
br></font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"monospace, monos=
pace">A resolves its BGP next-hop D over the SR-TE tunnel T1.</font></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">T1: A-&gt;B=
, B-&gt;C, C-&gt;D (loosely routed)</font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default=
"><font face=3D"monospace, monospace"><br></font></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
default"><font face=3D"monospace, monospace"><font>Suppose A has enabled en=
d-to-end path protection over tunnel T1 and B has TI-LFA enabled, and the d=
etection timers are configured as described in your previous email. If the =
BC link goes down, B will immediately start rerouting the traffic via A (in=
 FRR fashion) creating a loop b/w A and B.</font></font></div><div class=3D=
"gmail_default"><font face=3D"monospace, monospace"><font><br></font></font=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"monospace, monospace"><fo=
nt>A solution would be to make the A-B link ineligible for TI-LFA backup co=
mputation at B. However, managing this network-wide could become operationa=
l expensive. Hence, deploying one of end-to-end path protection or local pr=
otection with sufficiently short detection timers keeps things simple, IMHO=
.</font></font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"monospace, =
monospace"><font><br></font></font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font=
 face=3D"monospace, monospace"><font>Regards,</font></font></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"monospace, monospace"><font>Muthu</font></=
font></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 1:59 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alex=
ander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"m_5894449629666138440WordSection1"><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">Regards,<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">Sasha<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">Office: <a href=3D"tel=
:+972%203-926-6302" value=3D"+97239266302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302<=
/a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" value=3D"+972549266302" =
target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a =
href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexande=
r.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
</span><div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Alexander Vainshtein <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 16, 2017 11:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> &#39;Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sprev=
idi@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">sprevidi@cisco.com</a>&gt;<span class=3D""=
><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-resliency-<wbr>use-cases@ietf.org</a>=
; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>;=
 Shell Nakash &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Gorokhovsk=
y@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;; Sidd Aanand &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Sidd.Aanand@e=
citele.com" target=3D"_blank">Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Ron Sdayoor =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Ron.Sdayoo=
r@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Rotem Cohen
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Rotem.Coh=
en@ecitele.com</a>&gt;<br>
</span><b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path pr=
otection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-<wbr>use-cases<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">Stefano,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">Lots of thanks for a prompt =
response.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">A couple of short comments i=
f you do not mind:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText"><b><u>Using 2119 language in=
 a &quot;use cases&quot; document</u></b>:
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"=
>
<u></u><span>1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Going back to the source I se=
e that =E2=80=9CMUST NOT=E2=80=A6 mean that the definition is an absolute p=
rohibition of the specification=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"=
>
<u></u><span>2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>I agree that the use case doc=
ument defines which scenarios should be addressed, but I do not see how it =
can impose an absolute prohibition on a certain scenario.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText"><b><u>Little sense link prot=
ection has in the case of path protection</u></b>:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"=
>
<u></u><span>1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>This was definitely correct f=
or traditional traffic engineering because the =E2=80=9Cshortest traffic pa=
ths=E2=80=9D (e.g., LDL PSPs) could be easily differentiated from the =E2=
=80=9Cengineered traffic paths=E2=80=9D.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"=
>
<u></u><span>2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>In addition, traditional loca=
l protection (e.g., MPLS FRR using RSVP-TE) could deal with link and node f=
ailures regardless of whether the failed link or node appeared in the ERO o=
f the protected path.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"=
>
<u></u><span>3.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>IMHO and FWIW, with SR=C2=A0 =
the situation is quite different:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"=
>
<u></u><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span>o<span sty=
le=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>The shortest traffic p=
aths not only coexist with engineered traffic paths: the latter are in many=
 cases =E2=80=9Ctunneled=E2=80=9D within the former.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"=
>
<u></u><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span>o<span sty=
le=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Path protection cannot=
 be applied to shortest traffic paths so they must rely on local protection=
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt"=
>
<u></u><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><span>o<span sty=
le=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>Local protection in th=
e case of failure of a node or link that appears in the ERO of an engineere=
d SR path is highly non-trivial at best, so path protection for the enginee=
red LSPs looks like a preferred
 solution to me.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt"=
>I fully agree with you that the operators deploying SR should provide feed=
back on this point based on actual operational experience.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt"=
>Meanwhile I doubt that <i>a priori</i> declaring some use cases as absolut=
ely prohibited is the right thing to do.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">My 2c,<u></u><u></u></p>
</span><p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">Sasha<u></u><u></u></=
p><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">Office: <a href=3D"tel:+972%=
203-926-6302" value=3D"+97239266302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a><u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" value=3D"+972549266302" target=
=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=
=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</span><p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">-----Original Message=
-----<span class=3D""><br>
From: Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) [<a href=3D"mailto:sprevidi@cisco.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">mailto:sprevidi@cisco.com</a>]
<br>
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2017 11:12 AM<br>
To: Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele=
.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-resliency-<wbr>use-cases@ietf.org</a>;
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>; S=
hell Nakash &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Gorokhovsky@=
ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;; Sidd Aanand
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Sidd.Aana=
nd@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Ron Sdayoor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ron.Sdayoor@ecite=
le.com" target=3D"_blank">Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Rotem Cohen &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Rotem.Cohen@ec=
itele.com</a>&gt;<br>
Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in dr=
aft-ietf-spring-resiliency-<wbr>use-cases<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; On May 11, 2017, at 12:=
04 PM, Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecit=
ele.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:=
none">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u>=
</u></p><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; Hi all,<u></u><u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; I have a belated (but h=
opefully late is still better than never) comment on path protection as def=
ined in Section 2 of the draft.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt;=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; This second para in thi=
s section says:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A fir=
st protection strategy consists in excluding any local repair<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 but i=
nstead use end-to-end path protection where each SPRING path
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; is<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 prote=
cted by a second disjoint SPRING path.=C2=A0 In this case local<u></u><u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 prote=
ction MUST NOT be used.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; First of all, I do not =
think that RFC 2119 language should be used in Informational documents, esp=
ecially in the documents that describe use cases.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">this document is also a requ=
irements document for the resiliency use-case. RFC2119 terminology is perfe=
ctly usable and even more, it adds clarity on what the solution is expected=
 to provide.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; In addition, I specific=
ally disagree with the quoted statement above, because, from my POV:<u></u>=
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; =C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Local repair and end-to-end path protecti=
on can be combined for the same path<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; =C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Such a combination may be beneficial for =
the operators.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">are you talking by experienc=
e or is it just something that came into your mind ? I=E2=80=99d like to he=
ar from operators using a combination of path and link protection.<u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">This document has been deepl=
y reviewed also by operators and it has been always obvious the little sens=
e link protection has in case of path protection.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; One possible way to com=
bine the two is described below:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt;=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; 1.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A pair of SR paths is set up between the given two nodes =
=E2=80=93 later referred to as source and destination -=C2=A0 in the networ=
k. These paths are =E2=80=9CSR-disjoint=E2=80=9D in the sense that their =
=E2=80=9Cexplicit routes=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 do not have any common elements,
 be they nodes or adjacencies, with exclusion of the final destination<u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; 2.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Local repair for these paths is enabled in the network. It =
is triggered by locally observed events (link failures etc.), applied by th=
e nodes adjacent to the failure and guarantees that, in the case of a link =
or node failure
 that is not specified in the explicit route, traffic along the affected pa=
th would be restored within &lt;X&gt; milliseconds<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; 3.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 End-to-end liveness monitoring is enabled for the two SR pa=
ths, and detects end-to-end failures of these paths within &lt;Y&gt; millis=
econds where Y &gt;&gt; X. In other words, end-to-end liveness monitoring f=
or these paths will ignore
 any failures that local repair can fix, but will detect failures that cann=
ot be locally repaired (e.g., failures of nodes or links that have been spe=
cified in the explicit route of one of the paths<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; 4.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 End-to-end liveness monitoring triggers end-to-end path pro=
tection to be applied by the source node in the following way:<u></u><u></u=
></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If it recognizes both paths as alive, one of them will carr=
y the customer traffic, while the other one will be idle. The rules for sel=
ecting the active path in this scenario may vary<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 If end-to-end failure of one of these paths is detected while the=
 other one remains alive, traffic will be carried across the live path<u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; c.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If end-to-end failure of both paths is detected (e.g., if t=
he final destination node fails, or if the network is partitioned), this is=
 recognized as an unrecoverable failure.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt;=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; From my POV the combina=
tion of local repair and end-to-end protection for SR paths is one of a few=
 possibilities to protect such paths against failures of nodes and/or links=
 that have been specified in their explicit routes. (Another
 option has been described in Node Protection for SR-TE Paths, but this dra=
ft has expired).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt;=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; Do I miss something sub=
stantial?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">to my view you created a use=
-case that doesn=E2=80=99t bring much to the picture but I=E2=80=99d let op=
erators to comment.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">s.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt;=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; Regards,<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; Sasha<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt;=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; Office: <a href=3D"tel:=
+972%203-926-6302" value=3D"+97239266302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</=
a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" value=3D"+972549266302" tar=
get=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a h=
ref=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">Alexander.Vainshtein@=
ecitele.<wbr>com</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt;=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; _______________________=
_______<wbr>______________________________<wbr>__________<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; _____<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; This e-mail message is =
intended for the recipient only and contains
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; information which is CO=
NFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI
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<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; Telecom. If you have re=
ceived this transmission in error, please
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<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; inform us by e-mail, ph=
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<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; _______________________=
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</div></div><p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; _____ _____=
_________________________<wbr>_________________<u></u><u></u></p><span clas=
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<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; spring mailing list<u><=
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<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:sprin=
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<p class=3D"m_5894449629666138440MsoPlainText">&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.=
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<br clear=3D"both">
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</span></div>


<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org>, Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>, Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>, Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 09:44:08 +0000
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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal <muthu.arul@gmail.com>
CC: "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>, "Michael Gorokhovsky" <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org>, Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>, Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>, Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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From: Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal <muthu.arul@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 15:55:14 +0530
Message-ID: <CAKz0y8zHzneU4SUtH8RGp0kjKVc=XfFZ3uO6e8NNFGn0X383LQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Cc: "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>,  Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>,  Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>,  "draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org>,  Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>, Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>,  Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/M3zPxSBBm_IMCdL8s5RJsAnBgIU>
Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 3:27 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:

> Muthu,
>
> Lots of thanks for a prompt response.
>
>
>
> I do not think that the loop you have described would actually appear in
> the scenario you=E2=80=99ve described.
>
>
>
> To the best of my understanding of TI-LFA, B would send the traffic back
> to A *complete with an explicit route that says B**=C3=A0** A**=C3=A0** C=
**=C3=A0**D*,
> and no loop would be formed.
>
>
Not necessarily. B was asked to send the traffic to C and knows that if it
sends the traffic to A, then A will send it to C over the shortest path
(i.e from B's perspective only the labeled next-hop changes).
Unfortunately, A has an explicit route pointing back to B (over the SR-TE
tunnel T1) that B isn't aware of. If B does strict explicit route for
everything, then B can run out of its MSD..


> =E2=80=8B
>
> Similar =E2=80=9Cloops=E2=80=9D can happen also in MPLS FRR with RSVP-TE =
when the PLR
> sends some traffic back  - but it sends it with the suitable label stack =
of
> the bypass tunnel so that eventually it reaches the MP.
>

=E2=80=8BAre there existing deployments where both e2e path protection and =
local
protection are used together with RSVP-TE?

Regards,
Muthu


>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal [mailto:muthu.arul@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 16, 2017 12:34 PM
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Cc:* Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) <sprevidi@cisco.com>; spring@ietf.org;
> Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-
> use-cases@ietf.org; Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>; Ron Sdayoor <
> Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>; Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection
> in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
>
>
>
> Using end-to-end path protection together with local protection can resul=
t
> in traffic loops. Consider the foll. topology:
>
>
>
> B-----C
>
> |    / \
>
> |   /   \
>
> |  /     \
>
> | /       \D----+
>
> A/              Z (CE)
>
>  \         F----+
>
>   \       /
>
>    \     /
>
>     \   /
>
>      \E/
>
>
>
> - All links are of equal cost.
>
> - A, D and F are BGP peers.
>
> - Z is a dual-homed CE.
>
>
>
> A resolves its BGP next-hop D over the SR-TE tunnel T1.
>
> T1: A->B, B->C, C->D (loosely routed)
>
>
>
> Suppose A has enabled end-to-end path protection over tunnel T1 and B has
> TI-LFA enabled, and the detection timers are configured as described in
> your previous email. If the BC link goes down, B will immediately start
> rerouting the traffic via A (in FRR fashion) creating a loop b/w A and B.
>
>
>
> A solution would be to make the A-B link ineligible for TI-LFA backup
> computation at B. However, managing this network-wide could become
> operational expensive. Hence, deploying one of end-to-end path protection
> or local protection with sufficiently short detection timers keeps things
> simple, IMHO.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Muthu
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 1:59 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 16, 2017 11:28 AM
> *To:* 'Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)' <sprevidi@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org; spring@ietf.org;
> Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>;
> Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>; Rotem Cohen <
> Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
> *Subject:* RE: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection
> in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
>
>
>
> Stefano,
>
> Lots of thanks for a prompt response.
>
>
>
> A couple of short comments if you do not mind:
>
>
>
> *Using 2119 language in a "use cases" document*:
>
> 1.       Going back to the source I see that =E2=80=9CMUST NOT=E2=80=A6 m=
ean that the
> definition is an absolute prohibition of the specification=E2=80=9D
>
> 2.       I agree that the use case document defines which scenarios
> should be addressed, but I do not see how it can impose an absolute
> prohibition on a certain scenario.
>
>
>
> *Little sense link protection has in the case of path protection*:
>
> 1.       This was definitely correct for traditional traffic engineering
> because the =E2=80=9Cshortest traffic paths=E2=80=9D (e.g., LDL PSPs) cou=
ld be easily
> differentiated from the =E2=80=9Cengineered traffic paths=E2=80=9D.
>
> 2.       In addition, traditional local protection (e.g., MPLS FRR using
> RSVP-TE) could deal with link and node failures regardless of whether the
> failed link or node appeared in the ERO of the protected path.
>
> 3.       IMHO and FWIW, with SR  the situation is quite different:
>
> o   The shortest traffic paths not only coexist with engineered traffic
> paths: the latter are in many cases =E2=80=9Ctunneled=E2=80=9D within the=
 former.
>
> o   Path protection cannot be applied to shortest traffic paths so they
> must rely on local protection
>
> o   Local protection in the case of failure of a node or link that
> appears in the ERO of an engineered SR path is highly non-trivial at best=
,
> so path protection for the engineered LSPs looks like a preferred solutio=
n
> to me.
>
> I fully agree with you that the operators deploying SR should provide
> feedback on this point based on actual operational experience.
>
> Meanwhile I doubt that *a priori* declaring some use cases as absolutely
> prohibited is the right thing to do.
>
>
>
> My 2c,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) [mailto:sprevidi@cisco.com
> <sprevidi@cisco.com>]
> Sent: Monday, May 15, 2017 11:12 AM
> To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> Cc: draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org; spring@ietf.org;
> Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>;
> Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>; Rotem Cohen <
> Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
> Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in
> draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 11, 2017, at 12:04 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Hi all,
>
> > I have a belated (but hopefully late is still better than never) commen=
t
> on path protection as defined in Section 2 of the draft.
>
> >
>
> > This second para in this section says:
>
> >    A first protection strategy consists in excluding any local repair
>
> >
>
> >    but instead use end-to-end path protection where each SPRING path
>
> > is
>
> >
>
> >    protected by a second disjoint SPRING path.  In this case local
>
> >
>
> >    protection MUST NOT be used.
>
> >
>
> > First of all, I do not think that RFC 2119 language should be used in
> Informational documents, especially in the documents that describe use
> cases.
>
>
>
>
>
> this document is also a requirements document for the resiliency use-case=
.
> RFC2119 terminology is perfectly usable and even more, it adds clarity on
> what the solution is expected to provide.
>
>
>
>
>
> > In addition, I specifically disagree with the quoted statement above,
> because, from my POV:
>
> > =C2=B7         Local repair and end-to-end path protection can be combi=
ned
> for the same path
>
> > =C2=B7         Such a combination may be beneficial for the operators.
>
>
>
>
>
> are you talking by experience or is it just something that came into your
> mind ? I=E2=80=99d like to hear from operators using a combination of pat=
h and link
> protection.
>
>
>
> This document has been deeply reviewed also by operators and it has been
> always obvious the little sense link protection has in case of path
> protection.
>
>
>
>
>
> > One possible way to combine the two is described below:
>
> >
>
> > 1.       A pair of SR paths is set up between the given two nodes =E2=
=80=93
> later referred to as source and destination -  in the network. These path=
s
> are =E2=80=9CSR-disjoint=E2=80=9D in the sense that their =E2=80=9Cexplic=
it routes=E2=80=9D  do not have
> any common elements, be they nodes or adjacencies, with exclusion of the
> final destination
>
> > 2.       Local repair for these paths is enabled in the network. It is
> triggered by locally observed events (link failures etc.), applied by the
> nodes adjacent to the failure and guarantees that, in the case of a link =
or
> node failure that is not specified in the explicit route, traffic along t=
he
> affected path would be restored within <X> milliseconds
>
> > 3.       End-to-end liveness monitoring is enabled for the two SR paths=
,
> and detects end-to-end failures of these paths within <Y> milliseconds
> where Y >> X. In other words, end-to-end liveness monitoring for these
> paths will ignore any failures that local repair can fix, but will detect
> failures that cannot be locally repaired (e.g., failures of nodes or link=
s
> that have been specified in the explicit route of one of the paths
>
> > 4.       End-to-end liveness monitoring triggers end-to-end path
> protection to be applied by the source node in the following way:
>
> > a.       If it recognizes both paths as alive, one of them will carry
> the customer traffic, while the other one will be idle. The rules for
> selecting the active path in this scenario may vary
>
> > b.      If end-to-end failure of one of these paths is detected while
> the other one remains alive, traffic will be carried across the live path
>
> > c.       If end-to-end failure of both paths is detected (e.g., if the
> final destination node fails, or if the network is partitioned), this is
> recognized as an unrecoverable failure.
>
> >
>
> > From my POV the combination of local repair and end-to-end protection
> for SR paths is one of a few possibilities to protect such paths against
> failures of nodes and/or links that have been specified in their explicit
> routes. (Another option has been described in Node Protection for SR-TE
> Paths, but this draft has expired).
>
> >
>
> > Do I miss something substantial?
>
>
>
>
>
> to my view you created a use-case that doesn=E2=80=99t bring much to the =
picture
> but I=E2=80=99d let operators to comment.
>
>
>
> s.
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
> > Regards,
>
> > Sasha
>
> >
>
> > Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> > Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> > Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ______________________________________________________________________
>
> > _____
>
> >
>
> > This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
>
> > information which is CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI
>
> > Telecom. If you have received this transmission in error, please
>
> > inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then delete the original and all
> copies thereof.
>
> > ______________________________________________________________________
>
> > _____ _______________________________________________
>
> > spring mailing list
>
> > spring@ietf.org
>
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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--001a113d73a0663552054fa196bf
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-s=
erif">On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 3:27 PM, Alexander Vainshtein </span><span di=
r=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alex=
ander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitel=
e.com</a>&gt;</span><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif"> wrote:</s=
pan><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_947722130701357768WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Muthu,<u></u><u></u></span></p><span =
class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Lots of thanks for a prompt response.=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</span><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">I do not think that the loop y=
ou have described would actually appear in the scenario you=E2=80=99ve desc=
ribed.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">To the best of my understanding of TI=
-LFA, B would send the traffic back to A
<b>complete with an explicit route that says B</b></span><b><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#44546a">=C3=A0</span></b><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;c=
olor:#44546a"> A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:W=
ingdings;color:#44546a">=C3=A0</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">
 C</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color=
:#44546a">=C3=A0</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">D</span></b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">,
 and no loop would be formed. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"></p><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-famil=
y:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;display:inline"></div><p></p><=
/div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" st=
yle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Not necessar=
ily. B was asked to send the traffic to C and knows that if it sends the tr=
affic to A, then A will send it to C over the shortest path (i.e from B&#39=
;s perspective only the labeled next-hop changes). Unfortunately, A has an =
explicit route pointing back to B (over the SR-TE tunnel T1) that B isn&#39=
;t aware of. If B does strict explicit route for everything, then B can run=
 out of its MSD..=C2=A0</div></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_=
947722130701357768WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"></p><div class=3D"gm=
ail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:smal=
l;display:inline">=E2=80=8B</div><br><p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Similar =E2=80=9Cloops=E2=80=9D can h=
appen also in MPLS FRR with RSVP-TE when the PLR sends some traffic back=C2=
=A0 - but it sends it with the suitable label stack of the bypass tunnel
 so that eventually it reaches the MP.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,=
helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">=E2=80=8BAre there existing deploymen=
ts where both e2e path protection and local protection are used together wi=
th RSVP-TE?</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Regards,</=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-=
serif;font-size:small">Muthu</div></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=
=3D"m_947722130701357768WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D=
"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a"=
><u></u><u></u></span></p><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Sasha<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Office: <a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6=
302" value=3D"+97239266302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a><u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <=
a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" value=3D"+972549266302" target=3D"_blank"=
>+972-549266302</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:=
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ec=
itele.<wbr>com</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</span><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Muthu Arul Mozhi Peruma=
l [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:muthu.arul@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">muthu.a=
rul@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 16, 2017 12:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@=
ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt=
;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sprevidi@cisco.=
com" target=3D"_blank">sprevidi@cisco.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:spring=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>; Shell Nakash &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Shell.Nakash@ecitele=
.com</a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky=
@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt=
;; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-<wbr>use-cases@ietf.org</a>; Sidd=
 Aanand &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Si=
dd.Aanand@ecitele.com</a>&gt;;
 Ron Sdayoor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Rotem Cohen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Rotem=
.Cohen@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com</a>&gt;</span=
></p><div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protectio=
n in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-<wbr>use-cases<u></u><u></u></div></div><=
p></p><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
Using end-to-end path protection together with local protection can result =
in traffic loops. Consider the foll. topology:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
B-----C =C2=A0=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
| =C2=A0 =C2=A0/ \</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
| =C2=A0 / =C2=A0 \=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
| =C2=A0/ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 \</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
| / =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 \D----+=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
A/ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Z (CE)</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0\ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 F----+=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 \ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0\ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 \ =C2=A0 /=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0\E/</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
- All links are of equal cost.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
- A, D and F are BGP peers.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
- Z is a dual-homed CE.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
A resolves its BGP next-hop D over the SR-TE tunnel T1.</span><u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
T1: A-&gt;B, B-&gt;C, C-&gt;D (loosely routed)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
Suppose A has enabled end-to-end path protection over tunnel T1 and B has T=
I-LFA enabled, and the detection timers are configured as described in your=
 previous email. If the BC link goes down, B will
 immediately start rerouting the traffic via A (in FRR fashion) creating a =
loop b/w A and B.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
A solution would be to make the A-B link ineligible for TI-LFA backup compu=
tation at B. However, managing this network-wide could become operational e=
xpensive. Hence, deploying one of end-to-end path
 protection or local protection with sufficiently short detection timers ke=
eps things simple, IMHO.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
Muthu</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 1:59 PM, Alexander Vainshtei=
n &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-right:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0=
cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">Regards,</span><u></u>=
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">Sasha</span><u></u><u>=
</u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Alexander Vainshtein
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 16, 2017 11:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> &#39;Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sprev=
idi@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">sprevidi@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank">
draft-ietf-spring-resliency-<wbr>use-cases@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:=
spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
spring@ietf.org</a>; Shell Nakash &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Shell.Nakash@ecitel=
e.com" target=3D"_blank">Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhov=
sky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank=
">Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;; Sidd Aanand
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Sidd.Aana=
nd@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Ron Sdayoor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ron.Sdayoor@ecite=
le.com" target=3D"_blank">Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Rotem Cohen &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Rotem.Cohen@ec=
itele.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protectio=
n in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-<wbr>use-cases<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">Stefano,<=
u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">Lots of t=
hanks for a prompt response.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">A couple =
of short comments if you do not mind:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext"><b><u>Usi=
ng 2119 language in a &quot;use cases&quot; document</u></b>:
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext" style=3D"=
margin-left:36.0pt">1.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>Going back to the source I see that =E2=80=9CMUST NOT=E2=80=A6 mean =
that the definition is an absolute prohibition of the specification=E2=80=
=9D<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext" style=3D"=
margin-left:36.0pt">2.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>I agree that the use case document defines which scenarios should be=
 addressed, but I do not see how it can impose an absolute prohibition on a=
 certain scenario.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext"><b><u>Lit=
tle sense link protection has in the case of path protection</u></b>:<u></u=
><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext" style=3D"=
margin-left:36.0pt">1.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>This was definitely correct for traditional traffic engineering beca=
use the =E2=80=9Cshortest traffic paths=E2=80=9D (e.g., LDL PSPs) could be =
easily differentiated from the =E2=80=9Cengineered traffic paths=E2=80=9D.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext" style=3D"=
margin-left:36.0pt">2.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>In addition, traditional local protection (e.g., MPLS FRR using RSVP=
-TE) could deal with link and node failures regardless of whether the faile=
d link or node appeared in the ERO of the protected path.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext" style=3D"=
margin-left:36.0pt">3.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>IMHO and FWIW, with SR=C2=A0 the situation is quite different:<u></u=
><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext" style=3D"=
margin-left:72.0pt"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">o</=
span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>The shortest traffic paths not only coexist with engineered traffic =
paths: the latter are in many cases =E2=80=9Ctunneled=E2=80=9D within the f=
ormer.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext" style=3D"=
margin-left:72.0pt"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">o</=
span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>Path protection cannot be applied to shortest traffic paths so they =
must rely on local protection<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext" style=3D"=
margin-left:72.0pt"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">o</=
span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>Local protection in the case of failure of a node or link that appea=
rs in the ERO of an engineered SR path is highly non-trivial at best, so pa=
th protection for the engineered LSPs looks like a preferred solution to me=
.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext" style=3D"=
margin-left:18.0pt">I fully agree with you that the operators deploying SR =
should provide feedback on this point based on actual operational experienc=
e.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext" style=3D"=
margin-left:18.0pt">Meanwhile I doubt that
<i>a priori</i> declaring some use cases as absolutely prohibited is the ri=
ght thing to do.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">My 2c,<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">Sasha<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">Office: <=
a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">
+972-39266302</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">Cell:=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_b=
lank">
+972-549266302</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">Email:=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">-----Orig=
inal Message-----<br>
From: Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) [<a href=3D"mailto:sprevidi@cisco.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">mailto:sprevidi@cisco.com</a>]
<br>
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2017 11:12 AM<br>
To: Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele=
.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">
draft-ietf-spring-resliency-<wbr>use-cases@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:=
spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
spring@ietf.org</a>; Shell Nakash &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Shell.Nakash@ecitel=
e.com" target=3D"_blank">Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhov=
sky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank=
">Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;; Sidd Aanand
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Sidd.Aana=
nd@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Ron Sdayoor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ron.Sdayoor@ecite=
le.com" target=3D"_blank">Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Rotem Cohen &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Rotem.Cohen@ec=
itele.com</a>&gt;<br>
Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in dr=
aft-ietf-spring-resiliency-<wbr>use-cases<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; On M=
ay 11, 2017, at 12:04 PM, Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexan=
der.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowte=
xt;text-decoration:none">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</span></a>&g=
t;
 wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; <u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; Hi a=
ll,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; I ha=
ve a belated (but hopefully late is still better than never) comment on pat=
h protection as defined in Section 2 of the draft.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=
=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; This=
 second para in this section says:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A first protection strategy consists in excluding any local=
 repair<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; <u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 but instead use end-to-end path protection where each SPRIN=
G path
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; is<u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; <u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 protected by a second disjoint SPRING path.=C2=A0 In this c=
ase local<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; <u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 protection MUST NOT be used.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; <u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; Firs=
t of all, I do not think that RFC 2119 language should be used in Informati=
onal documents, especially in the documents that describe use cases.<u></u>=
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">this docu=
ment is also a requirements document for the resiliency use-case. RFC2119 t=
erminology is perfectly usable and even more, it adds clarity on what the s=
olution is expected to provide.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; In a=
ddition, I specifically disagree with the quoted statement above, because, =
from my POV:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; =C2=
=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Local repair and end-to=
-end path protection can be combined for the same path<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; =C2=
=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Such a combination may =
be beneficial for the operators.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">are you t=
alking by experience or is it just something that came into your mind ? I=
=E2=80=99d like to hear from operators using a combination of path and link=
 protection.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">This docu=
ment has been deeply reviewed also by operators and it has been always obvi=
ous the little sense link protection has in case of path protection.<u></u>=
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; One =
possible way to combine the two is described below:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=
=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; 1.=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A pair of SR paths is set up between t=
he given two nodes =E2=80=93 later referred to as source and destination -=
=C2=A0 in the network. These paths are =E2=80=9CSR-disjoint=E2=80=9D in the=
 sense that their =E2=80=9Cexplicit routes=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 do not
 have any common elements, be they nodes or adjacencies, with exclusion of =
the final destination<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; 2.=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Local repair for these paths is enable=
d in the network. It is triggered by locally observed events (link failures=
 etc.), applied by the nodes adjacent to the failure and guarantees that, i=
n the case of
 a link or node failure that is not specified in the explicit route, traffi=
c along the affected path would be restored within &lt;X&gt; milliseconds<u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; 3.=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 End-to-end liveness monitoring is enab=
led for the two SR paths, and detects end-to-end failures of these paths wi=
thin &lt;Y&gt; milliseconds where Y &gt;&gt; X. In other words, end-to-end =
liveness monitoring for these
 paths will ignore any failures that local repair can fix, but will detect =
failures that cannot be locally repaired (e.g., failures of nodes or links =
that have been specified in the explicit route of one of the paths<u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; 4.=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 End-to-end liveness monitoring trigger=
s end-to-end path protection to be applied by the source node in the follow=
ing way:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; a.=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If it recognizes both paths as alive, =
one of them will carry the customer traffic, while the other one will be id=
le. The rules for selecting the active path in this scenario may vary<u></u=
><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; b.=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If end-to-end failure of one of these paths =
is detected while the other one remains alive, traffic will be carried acro=
ss the live path<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; c.=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If end-to-end failure of both paths is=
 detected (e.g., if the final destination node fails, or if the network is =
partitioned), this is recognized as an unrecoverable failure.<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=
=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; From=
 my POV the combination of local repair and end-to-end protection for SR pa=
ths is one of a few possibilities to protect such paths against failures of=
 nodes and/or links that have been specified in their explicit
 routes. (Another option has been described in Node Protection for SR-TE Pa=
ths, but this draft has expired).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=
=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; Do I=
 miss something substantial?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">to my vie=
w you created a use-case that doesn=E2=80=99t bring much to the picture but=
 I=E2=80=99d let operators to comment.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">s.<u></u>=
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=
=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; Rega=
rds,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; Sash=
a<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=
=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; Offi=
ce: <a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">
+972-39266302</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; Cell=
:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=
=3D"_blank">
+972-549266302</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; Emai=
l:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=
=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">Alexander.Vainshtein@=
ecitele.<wbr>com</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=
=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; <u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; ____=
__________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_________=
_<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; ____=
_<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; <u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; This=
 e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; info=
rmation which is CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; Tele=
com. If you have received this transmission in error, please
<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; ____=
__________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_________=
_<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; ____=
_ ______________________________<wbr>_________________<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; spri=
ng mailing list<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; <a h=
ref=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">spring@ietf.org</span=
></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; <a h=
ref=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" target=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/<wbr>listinfo/spring</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is
<br>
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
ved this
<br>
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original
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and all copies thereof.<br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br=
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<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/spring</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<br clear=3D"both">
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
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<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
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transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
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__________<br>
</div></div></div>


</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal <muthu.arul@gmail.com>
CC: "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>, "Michael Gorokhovsky" <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org>, Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>, Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>, Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal <muthu.arul@gmail.com>
CC: "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>, "Michael Gorokhovsky" <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org>, Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>, Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>, Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>, "draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org>
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From: Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>
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On 5/12/2017 7:55 PM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote:
>
> We are assuming a default behavior of PHP for SR-MPLS. If folks 
> believe this requires explicit specification I would propose language 
> similar to the following:
>
> /"When Segment Routing is instantiated over the MPLS data plane the 
> penultimate node performs the NEXT operation (i.e., MPLS pop) unless a 
> specific indication to do otherwise is advertised by the ultimate node."/
>
>
I think this certainly needs to be stated explicitly, perhaps in the 
document that specfies the use of the MPLS dataplane for SR.

It should also be noted that there are circumstances under which the 
default will not produce the required behavior, so it may not always be 
safe to use the default behavior.  (For example, if a SID represents a 
multicast tree, and the payload is an MPLS packet that begins with an 
upstream-assigned label, PHP just won't produce the proper result 
because the label that was popped provides the context for interpreting 
the upstream-assigned label that has now risen to the top of the stack.)

> As to why we are choosing PHP rather than UHP as the default, it is 
> our belief that most of the platforms which support MPLS today have 
> been implemented to take advantage of the optimizations that PHP 
> affords. In some cases it may even be true that UHP is not supported 
> at all.
>

I believe you are correct about this.

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    On 5/12/2017 7:55 PM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote:<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:712183ebf3394ec597f7285addc068c2@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">We
          are assuming a default behavior of PHP for SR-MPLS. If folks
          believe this requires explicit specification I would propose
          language similar to the following:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">"When
            Segment Routing is instantiated over the MPLS data plane the
            penultimate node performs the NEXT operation (i.e., MPLS
            pop) unless a specific indication to do otherwise is
            advertised by the ultimate node."<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p><br>
          </o:p></span></p>
    </blockquote>
    I think this certainly needs to be stated explicitly, perhaps in the
    document that specfies the use of the MPLS dataplane for SR.<br>
    <br>
    It should also be noted that there are circumstances under which the
    default will not produce the required behavior, so it may not always
    be safe to use the default behavior. (For example, if a SID
    represents a multicast tree, and the payload is an MPLS packet that
    begins with an upstream-assigned label, PHP just won't produce the
    proper result because the label that was popped provides the context
    for interpreting the upstream-assigned label that has now risen to
    the top of the stack.)<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:712183ebf3394ec597f7285addc068c2@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">As
          to why we are choosing PHP rather than UHP as the default, it
          is our belief that most of the platforms which support MPLS
          today have been implemented to take advantage of the
          optimizations that PHP affords. In some cases it may even be
          true that UHP is not supported at all. <br>
        </span></p>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    I believe you are correct about this.<br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------684D0EA840B23F2DC8B9B1B4--


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From: "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>
To: Stephane Litkowski <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>, "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>, "draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/L8K6jnKN3pLJupT8IClxzV8sou8>
Subject: Re: [spring] Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution
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Hi all,
I concur with Eric, and I would like to mention yet another (albeit simila=
r) use case where PHP MUST NOT be used with SR LSPs.

RFC 8104<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8104> describes the PW egress endp=
oint protection mechanism that uses bypass tunnels between the PLR and the=
 "Protector" node.
The top label of the bypass tunnel is used by the Protector node as the "c=
ontext label" for the next (PW) label in the label stack, and hence PHP MU=
ST NOT ever be used with these tunnels.

RFC 8104 claims that it is applicable to any technology that sets up tunne=
l LSPs (it explicitly states that it is applicable to LDP LSPs), so I assu=
me that  it should be able to operate with SR LSPs as well.

My 2c,
Sasha

Office: +972-39266302
Cell:      +972-549266302
Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric C Rosen
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2017 4:44 PM
To: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) <ginsberg@cisco.com>; Shraddha Hegde <shraddha=
@juniper.net>; draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org
Cc: spring@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution=


On 5/12/2017 7:55 PM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote:

We are assuming a default behavior of PHP for SR-MPLS. If folks believe th=
is requires explicit specification I would propose language similar to the=
 following:

"When Segment Routing is instantiated over the MPLS data plane the penulti=
mate node performs the NEXT operation (i.e., MPLS pop) unless a specific i=
ndication to do otherwise is advertised by the ultimate node."


I think this certainly needs to be stated explicitly, perhaps in the docum=
ent that specfies the use of the MPLS dataplane for SR.

It should also be noted that there are circumstances under which the defau=
lt will not produce the required behavior, so it may not always be safe to=
 use the default behavior.  (For example, if a SID represents a multicast =
tree, and the payload is an MPLS packet that begins with an upstream-assig=
ned label, PHP just won't produce the proper=20result because the label th=
at was popped provides the context for interpreting the upstream-assigned =
label that has now risen to the top of the stack.)


As to why we are choosing PHP rather than UHP as the default, it is our be=
lief that most of the platforms which support MPLS today have been impleme=
nted to take advantage of the optimizations that PHP affords. In some case=
s it may even be true that UHP is not supported at all.

I believe you are correct about this.

__________________________________________________________________________=
_

This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains inform=
ation which is=20
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have rece=
ived this=20
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A">Hi all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A">I concur with Eric, and I would lik=
e to mention yet another (albeit similar) use case where PHP MUST NOT be u=
sed with SR LSPs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/h=
tml/rfc8104">RFC 8104</a> describes the PW egress endpoint protection mech=
anism that uses bypass tunnels between the PLR and
 the &#8220;Protector&#8221; node.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A">The top label of the bypass tunnel =
is used by the Protector node as the &#8220;context label&#8221; for the n=
ext (PW) label in the label stack, and hence PHP MUST NOT ever
 be used with these tunnels.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A">RFC 8104 claims that it is applicab=
le to any technology that sets up tunnel LSPs (it explicitly states that i=
t is applicable to LDP LSPs), so I assume that &nbsp;it
 should be able to operate with SR LSPs as well.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A">My 2c,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A">Sasha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A">Office: &#43;972-39266302<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A">Cell:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 &#43;972-549266302<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A">Email:&nbsp;&nbsp; Alexander.Vainsh=
tein@ecitele.com<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm=
 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style=3D=
"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowt=
ext"> spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Eric C Rosen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 16, 2017 4:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) &lt;ginsberg@cisco.com&gt;; Shraddha He=
gde &lt;shraddha@juniper.net&gt;; draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ie=
tf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> spring@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-res=
olution<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 5/12/2017 7:55 PM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) wrote=
:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-=
alt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,=
sans-serif;color:#1F497D">We are assuming a default behavior of PHP for SR=
-MPLS. If folks believe this requires explicit specification
 I would propose language similar to the following:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-=
alt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,=
sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-=
alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-se=
rif;color:#1F497D">&quot;When Segment Routing is instantiated over the MPL=
S data plane the penultimate node performs the NEXT operation (i.e., MPLS =
pop) unless a specific indication to do otherwise is
 advertised by the ultimate node.&quot;</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-=
alt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,=
sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think this certainly needs to be stated explicitl=
y, perhaps in the document that specfies the use of the MPLS dataplane for=
 SR.<br>
<br>
It should also be noted that there are circumstances under which the defau=
lt will not produce the required behavior, so it may not always be safe to=
 use the default behavior.&nbsp; (For example, if a SID represents a multi=
cast tree, and the payload is an MPLS packet
 that begins with an upstream-assigned label, PHP just won't produce the p=
roper result because the label that was popped provides the context for in=
terpreting the upstream-assigned label that has now risen to the top of th=
e stack.)<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-=
alt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,=
sans-serif;color:#1F497D">As to why we are choosing PHP rather than UHP as=
 the default, it is our belief that most of the platforms
 which support MPLS today have been implemented to take advantage of the o=
ptimizations that PHP affords. In some cases it may even be true that UHP =
is not supported at all.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
I believe you are correct about this.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<br clear=3D"both">
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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org>, Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>, Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>, Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>, Stephane Litkowski <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/3u1wPvz1ohzU-DJfuv05hv-34RA>
Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
To: Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>, Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>,  "draft-ietf-spring-mpls-anycast-segments@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-mpls-anycast-segments@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-extensions@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-extensions@ietf.org>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>, "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution
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Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 14:32:27 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution
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 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric C Rosen
 > Sent: Friday, May 12, 2017 3:51 PM
 > To: Alexander Vainshtein; Les Ginsberg (ginsberg); Shraddha Hegde; draft=
-ietf-spring-
 > conflict-resolution@ietf.org
 > Cc: spring@ietf.org
 > Subject: Re: [spring] Mail regarding draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resoluti=
on
 >=20
 > On 5/11/2017 7:30 AM, Alexander Vainshtein wrote:
 >=20
 > Specifically, from my POV, if a SR-capable node with SGB base <B> and No=
de SID <S>
 > receives a labeled packet with top label <B+S>, this label MUST be termi=
nated regardless of
 > whether the node did or did not advertise PHP.
 >=20
 > This seems like it might be too strong a requirement.=A0 If the node is =
expecting PHP, I don't
 > think it is reasonable to expect it to set up its data plane forwarding =
structures to handle
 > both the PHP and the non-PHP case.
 >=20
 > We might also question the statement that Les made: "[if] there is no ad=
vertisement of P/E
 > for any of the destinations. It must follow a default behavior [when dec=
iding whether to use
 > PHP]".
 >=20
 > Proper operation of the system seems to require that everyone knows when=
 to do PHP and
 > when not to do it.=A0 If all the progamming of the data plane is done by=
 a controller, it has to
 > program the nodes consistently.=A0 If the programming of the data plane =
is done by a control
 > plane, and control plane errors or config errors cause inconsistent prog=
ramming of the data
 > plane, it would be nice if there were some way of detecting this and per=
haps taking some
 > deterministic remedial action.=A0 While the scenario under discussion is=
 not, strictly speaking,
 > a "SID conflict", it does have a strong resemblance to the SID conflict =
case, in that the
 > control plane is advertising an inconsistency that is likely to break th=
ings.

Eric,

thank you for your useful feedback.

I see 3 cases:

1) When a node advertise its own SID,

It looks to me that the architecture document is clear about the behavior:

"A Node N
      advertising a Prefix-SID SID-R for its attached prefix R unsets
      the P-Flag (or NP-Flag) in order to instruct its connected
      neighbors to perform the NEXT operation while processing SID-R.
      This behavior is equivalent to Penultimate Hop Popping in MPLS.
      When the flag is unset, the neighbors of N MUST perform the NEXT
      operation while processing SID-R.  When the flag is set, the
      neighbors of N MUST perform the CONTINUE operation while
      processing SID-R."

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-11#section-3.=
1.2


2) For the case where the SID is advertised by a Mapping Server,=20

it looks to me that the normative behavior is defined in https://tools.ietf=
.org/html/draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-extensions-12#section-2.4.5.2

Eric, it would be useful if you could review this text and provides comment=
s.
On my side, I feel that the text could be reworked to normatively specify w=
hen PHP MUST be done (aka SR NEXT) and when UHP (aka SR CONTINUE) MUST be d=
one  (and explicit null MUST NOT be used)

3) For the anycast case raised by Shraddha,

One option may be to handle this case in draft-ietf-spring-mpls-anycast-seg=
ments. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-mpls-anycast-segments-=
01

Especially since it states "Like unicast prefix segments, anycast prefix se=
gments SHOULD be advertised in IGP Link-state advertsements using IGP proto=
col extension for SR specified in  [I-D.ietf-isis-segment-routing-extension=
s],  [I-D.ietf-ospf-segment-routing-extensions]"=20
which seems to exactly brings Shraddha's question. (i.e. what is the behavi=
or if they are not)

Thanks,
--Bruno

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From: Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal <muthu.arul@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 20:42:46 +0530
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To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Cc: "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>,  Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>,  Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>,  "draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org>,  Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>, Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>,  Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/eV8UwPeHQk89rXeY-kfJ46ojOvg>
Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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--001a113d0366ad4f10054fa59aea
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Sasha,

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:

> Muthu,
>
> Again lots of thanks for a prompt response. I still do not think a loop
> would really form because:
>
> =C2=B7         A sends packet to its local next hop for B with the stack =
(B,
> C, D)
>
> =C2=B7         B receives this packet with the stack (C, D), but the link=
 C
> has failed. So B sends to its next hop for it back to A *with stack (C,D)=
*
>
> =C2=B7         A now sends the packet to its next hop for C with the same
> stack.
>
=E2=80=8BRight, it doesn't cause an infinite loop, but does result in packe=
ts being
forwarded from A -> B -> A, over a sub-optimal path, possibly overloading
the A-B link and increasing the load at A, when there are better alternate
paths in the network (including the shortest path from A to D). Moreover,
having enabled e2e path protection at A, the operator might actually want
the traffic to be switched over an alternate disjoint TE path when the
primary TE path is broken -- enabling local protection might act against
that goal, with traffic forwarded over sub-optimal paths.

Regards,
Muthu  =E2=80=8B


>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal [mailto:muthu.arul@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 16, 2017 1:25 PM
>
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Cc:* Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) <sprevidi@cisco.com>; spring@ietf.org;
> Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-
> use-cases@ietf.org; Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>; Ron Sdayoor <
> Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>; Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection
> in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 3:27 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> Muthu,
>
> Lots of thanks for a prompt response.
>
>
>
> I do not think that the loop you have described would actually appear in
> the scenario you=E2=80=99ve described.
>
>
>
> To the best of my understanding of TI-LFA, B would send the traffic back
> to A *complete with an explicit route that says B**=C3=A0** A**=C3=A0** C=
**=C3=A0**D*,
> and no loop would be formed.
>
>
>
> Not necessarily. B was asked to send the traffic to C and knows that if i=
t
> sends the traffic to A, then A will send it to C over the shortest path
> (i.e from B's perspective only the labeled next-hop changes).
> Unfortunately, A has an explicit route pointing back to B (over the SR-TE
> tunnel T1) that B isn't aware of. If B does strict explicit route for
> everything, then B can run out of its MSD..
>
>
>
> =E2=80=8B
>
>
>
> Similar =E2=80=9Cloops=E2=80=9D can happen also in MPLS FRR with RSVP-TE =
when the PLR
> sends some traffic back  - but it sends it with the suitable label stack =
of
> the bypass tunnel so that eventually it reaches the MP.
>
>
>
> =E2=80=8BAre there existing deployments where both e2e path protection an=
d local
> protection are used together with RSVP-TE?
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Muthu
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal [mailto:muthu.arul@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 16, 2017 12:34 PM
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Cc:* Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) <sprevidi@cisco.com>; spring@ietf.org;
> Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-
> use-cases@ietf.org; Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>; Ron Sdayoor <
> Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>; Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection
> in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
>
>
>
> Using end-to-end path protection together with local protection can resul=
t
> in traffic loops. Consider the foll. topology:
>
>
>
> B-----C
>
> |    / \
>
> |   /   \
>
> |  /     \
>
> | /       \D----+
>
> A/              Z (CE)
>
>  \         F----+
>
>   \       /
>
>    \     /
>
>     \   /
>
>      \E/
>
>
>
> - All links are of equal cost.
>
> - A, D and F are BGP peers.
>
> - Z is a dual-homed CE.
>
>
>
> A resolves its BGP next-hop D over the SR-TE tunnel T1.
>
> T1: A->B, B->C, C->D (loosely routed)
>
>
>
> Suppose A has enabled end-to-end path protection over tunnel T1 and B has
> TI-LFA enabled, and the detection timers are configured as described in
> your previous email. If the BC link goes down, B will immediately start
> rerouting the traffic via A (in FRR fashion) creating a loop b/w A and B.
>
>
>
> A solution would be to make the A-B link ineligible for TI-LFA backup
> computation at B. However, managing this network-wide could become
> operational expensive. Hence, deploying one of end-to-end path protection
> or local protection with sufficiently short detection timers keeps things
> simple, IMHO.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Muthu
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 1:59 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 16, 2017 11:28 AM
> *To:* 'Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)' <sprevidi@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org; spring@ietf.org;
> Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>;
> Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>; Rotem Cohen <
> Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
> *Subject:* RE: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection
> in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
>
>
>
> Stefano,
>
> Lots of thanks for a prompt response.
>
>
>
> A couple of short comments if you do not mind:
>
>
>
> *Using 2119 language in a "use cases" document*:
>
> 1.       Going back to the source I see that =E2=80=9CMUST NOT=E2=80=A6 m=
ean that the
> definition is an absolute prohibition of the specification=E2=80=9D
>
> 2.       I agree that the use case document defines which scenarios
> should be addressed, but I do not see how it can impose an absolute
> prohibition on a certain scenario.
>
>
>
> *Little sense link protection has in the case of path protection*:
>
> 1.       This was definitely correct for traditional traffic engineering
> because the =E2=80=9Cshortest traffic paths=E2=80=9D (e.g., LDL PSPs) cou=
ld be easily
> differentiated from the =E2=80=9Cengineered traffic paths=E2=80=9D.
>
> 2.       In addition, traditional local protection (e.g., MPLS FRR using
> RSVP-TE) could deal with link and node failures regardless of whether the
> failed link or node appeared in the ERO of the protected path.
>
> 3.       IMHO and FWIW, with SR  the situation is quite different:
>
> o   The shortest traffic paths not only coexist with engineered traffic
> paths: the latter are in many cases =E2=80=9Ctunneled=E2=80=9D within the=
 former.
>
> o   Path protection cannot be applied to shortest traffic paths so they
> must rely on local protection
>
> o   Local protection in the case of failure of a node or link that
> appears in the ERO of an engineered SR path is highly non-trivial at best=
,
> so path protection for the engineered LSPs looks like a preferred solutio=
n
> to me.
>
> I fully agree with you that the operators deploying SR should provide
> feedback on this point based on actual operational experience.
>
> Meanwhile I doubt that *a priori* declaring some use cases as absolutely
> prohibited is the right thing to do.
>
>
>
> My 2c,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) [mailto:sprevidi@cisco.com
> <sprevidi@cisco.com>]
> Sent: Monday, May 15, 2017 11:12 AM
> To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> Cc: draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org; spring@ietf.org;
> Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>;
> Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>; Rotem Cohen <
> Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
> Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in
> draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 11, 2017, at 12:04 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Hi all,
>
> > I have a belated (but hopefully late is still better than never) commen=
t
> on path protection as defined in Section 2 of the draft.
>
> >
>
> > This second para in this section says:
>
> >    A first protection strategy consists in excluding any local repair
>
> >
>
> >    but instead use end-to-end path protection where each SPRING path
>
> > is
>
> >
>
> >    protected by a second disjoint SPRING path.  In this case local
>
> >
>
> >    protection MUST NOT be used.
>
> >
>
> > First of all, I do not think that RFC 2119 language should be used in
> Informational documents, especially in the documents that describe use
> cases.
>
>
>
>
>
> this document is also a requirements document for the resiliency use-case=
.
> RFC2119 terminology is perfectly usable and even more, it adds clarity on
> what the solution is expected to provide.
>
>
>
>
>
> > In addition, I specifically disagree with the quoted statement above,
> because, from my POV:
>
> > =C2=B7         Local repair and end-to-end path protection can be combi=
ned
> for the same path
>
> > =C2=B7         Such a combination may be beneficial for the operators.
>
>
>
>
>
> are you talking by experience or is it just something that came into your
> mind ? I=E2=80=99d like to hear from operators using a combination of pat=
h and link
> protection.
>
>
>
> This document has been deeply reviewed also by operators and it has been
> always obvious the little sense link protection has in case of path
> protection.
>
>
>
>
>
> > One possible way to combine the two is described below:
>
> >
>
> > 1.       A pair of SR paths is set up between the given two nodes =E2=
=80=93
> later referred to as source and destination -  in the network. These path=
s
> are =E2=80=9CSR-disjoint=E2=80=9D in the sense that their =E2=80=9Cexplic=
it routes=E2=80=9D  do not have
> any common elements, be they nodes or adjacencies, with exclusion of the
> final destination
>
> > 2.       Local repair for these paths is enabled in the network. It is
> triggered by locally observed events (link failures etc.), applied by the
> nodes adjacent to the failure and guarantees that, in the case of a link =
or
> node failure that is not specified in the explicit route, traffic along t=
he
> affected path would be restored within <X> milliseconds
>
> > 3.       End-to-end liveness monitoring is enabled for the two SR paths=
,
> and detects end-to-end failures of these paths within <Y> milliseconds
> where Y >> X. In other words, end-to-end liveness monitoring for these
> paths will ignore any failures that local repair can fix, but will detect
> failures that cannot be locally repaired (e.g., failures of nodes or link=
s
> that have been specified in the explicit route of one of the paths
>
> > 4.       End-to-end liveness monitoring triggers end-to-end path
> protection to be applied by the source node in the following way:
>
> > a.       If it recognizes both paths as alive, one of them will carry
> the customer traffic, while the other one will be idle. The rules for
> selecting the active path in this scenario may vary
>
> > b.      If end-to-end failure of one of these paths is detected while
> the other one remains alive, traffic will be carried across the live path
>
> > c.       If end-to-end failure of both paths is detected (e.g., if the
> final destination node fails, or if the network is partitioned), this is
> recognized as an unrecoverable failure.
>
> >
>
> > From my POV the combination of local repair and end-to-end protection
> for SR paths is one of a few possibilities to protect such paths against
> failures of nodes and/or links that have been specified in their explicit
> routes. (Another option has been described in Node Protection for SR-TE
> Paths, but this draft has expired).
>
> >
>
> > Do I miss something substantial?
>
>
>
>
>
> to my view you created a use-case that doesn=E2=80=99t bring much to the =
picture
> but I=E2=80=99d let operators to comment.
>
>
>
> s.
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
> > Regards,
>
> > Sasha
>
> >
>
> > Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> > Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> > Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ______________________________________________________________________
>
> > _____
>
> >
>
> > This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
>
> > information which is CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI
>
> > Telecom. If you have received this transmission in error, please
>
> > inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then delete the original and all
> copies thereof.
>
> > ______________________________________________________________________
>
> > _____ _______________________________________________
>
> > spring mailing list
>
> > spring@ietf.org
>
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
> delete the original
> and all copies thereof.
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
> delete the original
> and all copies thereof.
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
> delete the original
> and all copies thereof.
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>

--001a113d0366ad4f10054fa59aea
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Sasha,</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander V=
ainshtein <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecit=
ele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_3141499709342222243WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Muthu,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Again lots of thanks for a prompt res=
ponse. I still do not think a loop would really form because:<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#44546a"><span>=C2=B7<span style=3D=
"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">A sends=
 packet to its local next hop for B with the stack (B, C, D)<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#44546a"><span>=C2=B7<span style=3D=
"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">B recei=
ves this packet with the stack (C, D), but the link C has failed. So B send=
s to its next hop for it back to A
<i>with stack (C,D)</i><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243MsoListParagraph"><u></u><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#44546a"><span>=C2=B7<span style=3D=
"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">A now s=
ends the packet to its next hop for C with the same stack.</span></p></div>=
</div></blockquote><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:a=
rial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;display:inline">=E2=80=8BRight, i=
t doesn&#39;t cause an infinite loop, but does result in packets being forw=
arded from A -&gt; B -&gt; A, over a sub-optimal path, possibly overloading=
 the A-B link and increasing the load at A, when there are better alternate=
 paths in the network (including the shortest path from A to D). Moreover, =
having enabled e2e path protection at A, the operator might actually want t=
he traffic to be switched over an alternate disjoint TE path when the prima=
ry TE path is broken -- enabling local protection might act against that go=
al, with traffic forwarded over sub-optimal paths.</div></div><div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-s=
ize:small;display:inline"><br></div></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
 style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;display:in=
line">Regards,</div></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-f=
amily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;display:inline">Muthu =C2=
=A0=E2=80=8B</div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"E=
N-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_3141499709342222243Wor=
dSection1"><p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243MsoListParagraph"><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#4454=
6a"><u></u><u></u></span></p><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Sasha<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Office: <a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6=
302" value=3D"+97239266302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a><u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <=
a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" value=3D"+972549266302" target=3D"_blank"=
>+972-549266302</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:=
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ec=
itele.<wbr>com</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</span><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Muthu Arul Mozhi Peruma=
l [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:muthu.arul@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">muthu.a=
rul@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 16, 2017 1:25 PM</span></p><div><div class=3D"h5"=
><br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@=
ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt=
;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sprevidi@cisco.=
com" target=3D"_blank">sprevidi@cisco.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:spring=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>; Shell Nakash &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Shell.Nakash@ecitele=
.com</a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky=
@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt=
;; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-<wbr>use-cases@ietf.org</a>; Sidd=
 Aanand &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Si=
dd.Aanand@ecitele.com</a>&gt;;
 Ron Sdayoor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Rotem Cohen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Rotem=
.Cohen@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protectio=
n in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-<wbr>use-cases<u></u><u></u></div></div><=
p></p><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 3:27 PM, Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainsht=
ein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-right:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0=
cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Muthu,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Lots of thanks for a prompt response.=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">I do not think that the loop you have=
 described would actually appear in the scenario you=E2=80=99ve described.<=
/span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">To the best of my understanding of TI=
-LFA, B would send the traffic back to A
<b>complete with an explicit route that says B</b></span><b><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#44546a">=C3=A0</span></b><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;c=
olor:#44546a"> A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:W=
ingdings;color:#44546a">=C3=A0</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">
 C</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color=
:#44546a">=C3=A0</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">D</span></b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">,
 and no loop would be formed. =C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Not necessarily. B was asked to send the traffic to C and knows that i=
f it sends the traffic to A, then A will send it to C over the shortest pat=
h (i.e from B&#39;s perspective only the labeled next-hop
 changes). Unfortunately, A has an explicit route pointing back to B (over =
the SR-TE tunnel T1) that B isn&#39;t aware of. If B does strict explicit r=
oute for everything, then B can run out of its MSD..=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-right:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0=
cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=E2=80=8B<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Similar =E2=80=9Cloops=E2=80=9D can h=
appen also in MPLS FRR with RSVP-TE when the PLR sends some traffic back=C2=
=A0 - but
 it sends it with the suitable label stack of the bypass tunnel so that eve=
ntually it reaches the MP.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=E2=80=8BAre there existing deployments where both e2e path protection=
 and local protection are used together with RSVP-TE?<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Muthu<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-right:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0=
cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Sasha</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal [mail=
to:<a href=3D"mailto:muthu.arul@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">muthu.arul@gma=
il.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 16, 2017 12:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@=
ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt=
;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sprevidi@cisco.=
com" target=3D"_blank">sprevidi@cisco.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>; S=
hell Nakash &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Gorokhovsky@=
ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">
draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-<wbr>use-cases@ietf.org</a>; Sidd Aanand &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Sidd.Aanand@eci=
tele.com</a>&gt;; Ron Sdayoor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com=
" target=3D"_blank">Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Rotem
 Cohen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Rot=
em.Cohen@ecitele.com</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protectio=
n in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-<wbr>use-cases<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
Using end-to-end path protection together with local protection can result =
in traffic loops. Consider the foll. topology:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
B-----C =C2=A0=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
| =C2=A0 =C2=A0/ \</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
| =C2=A0 / =C2=A0 \=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
| =C2=A0/ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 \</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
| / =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 \D----+=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
A/ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Z (CE)</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0\ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 F----+=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 \ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0\ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 \ =C2=A0 /=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0\E/</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
- All links are of equal cost.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
- A, D and F are BGP peers.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
- Z is a dual-homed CE.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
A resolves its BGP next-hop D over the SR-TE tunnel T1.</span><u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
T1: A-&gt;B, B-&gt;C, C-&gt;D (loosely routed)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
Suppose A has enabled end-to-end path protection over tunnel T1 and B has T=
I-LFA enabled, and the detection timers are configured as described
 in your previous email. If the BC link goes down, B will immediately start=
 rerouting the traffic via A (in FRR fashion) creating a loop b/w A and B.<=
/span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
A solution would be to make the A-B link ineligible for TI-LFA backup compu=
tation at B. However, managing this network-wide could become
 operational expensive. Hence, deploying one of end-to-end path protection =
or local protection with sufficiently short detection timers keeps things s=
imple, IMHO.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
Muthu</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 1:59 PM, Alexander Vainshtei=
n &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 0cm;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">Regards,</span><u></u>=
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">Sasha</span><u></u><u>=
</u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Alexander Vainshtein
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 16, 2017 11:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> &#39;Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sprev=
idi@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">sprevidi@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank">
draft-ietf-spring-resliency-<wbr>use-cases@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:=
spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
spring@ietf.org</a>; Shell Nakash &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Shell.Nakash@ecitel=
e.com" target=3D"_blank">Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhov=
sky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank=
">Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;; Sidd Aanand
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Sidd.Aana=
nd@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Ron Sdayoor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ron.Sdayoor@ecite=
le.com" target=3D"_blank">Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Rotem Cohen &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Rotem.Cohen@ec=
itele.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protectio=
n in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-<wbr>use-cases<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">Stefano,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">Lots of thanks for a prompt response.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">A couple of short comments if you do not mind:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext"><b><u>Using 2119 language in a &quot;use cases&quot; document</u=
></b>:
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">
1.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </sp=
an>Going back to the source I see that =E2=80=9CMUST NOT=E2=80=A6 mean that=
 the definition is an absolute prohibition of the specification=E2=80=9D<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">
2.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </sp=
an>I agree that the use case document defines which scenarios should be add=
ressed, but I do not see how it can impose an absolute prohibition on a cer=
tain scenario.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext"><b><u>Little sense link protection has in the case of path prote=
ction</u></b>:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">
1.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </sp=
an>This was definitely correct for traditional traffic engineering because =
the =E2=80=9Cshortest traffic paths=E2=80=9D (e.g., LDL PSPs) could be easi=
ly differentiated from the =E2=80=9Cengineered traffic paths=E2=80=9D.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">
2.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </sp=
an>In addition, traditional local protection (e.g., MPLS FRR using RSVP-TE)=
 could deal with link and node failures regardless of whether the failed li=
nk or node appeared in the ERO of the protected path.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">
3.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </sp=
an>IMHO and FWIW, with SR=C2=A0 the situation is quite different:<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">o</span><span style=3D"=
font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>
The shortest traffic paths not only coexist with engineered traffic paths: =
the latter are in many cases =E2=80=9Ctunneled=E2=80=9D within the former.<=
u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">o</span><span style=3D"=
font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>
Path protection cannot be applied to shortest traffic paths so they must re=
ly on local protection<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">o</span><span style=3D"=
font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>
Local protection in the case of failure of a node or link that appears in t=
he ERO of an engineered SR path is highly non-trivial at best, so path prot=
ection for the engineered LSPs looks like a preferred solution to me.<u></u=
><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt">
I fully agree with you that the operators deploying SR should provide feedb=
ack on this point based on actual operational experience.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt">
Meanwhile I doubt that <i>a priori</i> declaring some use cases as absolute=
ly prohibited is the right thing to do.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">My 2c,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">Sasha<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">Office: <a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">
+972-39266302</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926=
-6302" target=3D"_blank">
+972-549266302</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitel=
e.com" target=3D"_blank">
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) [<a href=3D"mailto:sprevidi@cisco.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">mailto:sprevidi@cisco.com</a>]
<br>
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2017 11:12 AM<br>
To: Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele=
.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">
draft-ietf-spring-resliency-<wbr>use-cases@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:=
spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
spring@ietf.org</a>; Shell Nakash &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Shell.Nakash@ecitel=
e.com" target=3D"_blank">Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhov=
sky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank=
">Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;; Sidd Aanand
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Sidd.Aana=
nd@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Ron Sdayoor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ron.Sdayoor@ecite=
le.com" target=3D"_blank">Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Rotem Cohen &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Rotem.Cohen@ec=
itele.com</a>&gt;<br>
Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in dr=
aft-ietf-spring-resiliency-<wbr>use-cases<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; On May 11, 2017, at 12:04 PM, Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank"><span sty=
le=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<=
wbr>com</span></a>&gt;
 wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; Hi all,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; I have a belated (but hopefully late is still better than n=
ever) comment on path protection as defined in Section 2 of the draft.<u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt;=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; This second para in this section says:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A first protection strategy consists in e=
xcluding any local repair<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 but instead use end-to-end path protectio=
n where each SPRING path
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; is<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 protected by a second disjoint SPRING pat=
h.=C2=A0 In this case local<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 protection MUST NOT be used.<u></u><u></u=
></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; First of all, I do not think that RFC 2119 language should =
be used in Informational documents, especially in the documents that descri=
be use cases.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">this document is also a requirements document for the resiliency=
 use-case. RFC2119 terminology is perfectly usable and even more, it adds c=
larity on what the solution is expected to provide.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; In addition, I specifically disagree with the quoted statem=
ent above, because, from my POV:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; =C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Loca=
l repair and end-to-end path protection can be combined for the same path<u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; =C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Such=
 a combination may be beneficial for the operators.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">are you talking by experience or is it just something that came =
into your mind ? I=E2=80=99d like to hear from operators using a combinatio=
n of path and link protection.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">This document has been deeply reviewed also by operators and it =
has been always obvious the little sense link protection has in case of pat=
h protection.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; One possible way to combine the two is described below:<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt;=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; 1.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A pair of SR paths i=
s set up between the given two nodes =E2=80=93 later referred to as source =
and destination -=C2=A0 in the network. These paths are =E2=80=9CSR-disjoin=
t=E2=80=9D in the sense that their =E2=80=9Cexplicit
 routes=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 do not have any common elements, be they nodes or ad=
jacencies, with exclusion of the final destination<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; 2.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Local repair for the=
se paths is enabled in the network. It is triggered by locally observed eve=
nts (link failures etc.), applied by the nodes adjacent to the failure and =
guarantees that,
 in the case of a link or node failure that is not specified in the explici=
t route, traffic along the affected path would be restored within &lt;X&gt;=
 milliseconds<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; 3.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 End-to-end liveness =
monitoring is enabled for the two SR paths, and detects end-to-end failures=
 of these paths within &lt;Y&gt; milliseconds where Y &gt;&gt; X. In other =
words, end-to-end liveness
 monitoring for these paths will ignore any failures that local repair can =
fix, but will detect failures that cannot be locally repaired (e.g., failur=
es of nodes or links that have been specified in the explicit route of one =
of the paths<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; 4.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 End-to-end liveness =
monitoring triggers end-to-end path protection to be applied by the source =
node in the following way:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If it recognizes bot=
h paths as alive, one of them will carry the customer traffic, while the ot=
her one will be idle. The rules for selecting the active path in this scena=
rio may vary<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If end-to-end failure of o=
ne of these paths is detected while the other one remains alive, traffic wi=
ll be carried across the live path<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; c.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If end-to-end failur=
e of both paths is detected (e.g., if the final destination node fails, or =
if the network is partitioned), this is recognized as an unrecoverable fail=
ure.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt;=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; From my POV the combination of local repair and end-to-end =
protection for SR paths is one of a few possibilities to protect such paths=
 against failures of nodes and/or links that have been specified
 in their explicit routes. (Another option has been described in Node Prote=
ction for SR-TE Paths, but this draft has expired).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt;=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; Do I miss something substantial?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">to my view you created a use-case that doesn=E2=80=99t bring muc=
h to the picture but I=E2=80=99d let operators to comment.<u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">s.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt;=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; Sasha<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt;=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; Office: <a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank"=
>
+972-39266302</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"tel:+972%205=
4-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">
+972-549266302</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@e=
citele.com" target=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">Alexander.Vainshtein@=
ecitele.<wbr>com</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt;=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; ______________________________<wbr>________________________=
______<wbr>__________<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; _____<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext">&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class=3D"m_3141499709342222243m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
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From: Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 15:32:28 +0000
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To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>,  "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>
Cc: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>,  Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>,  "draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org>,  Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>, Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>,  Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>,  Stephane Litkowski <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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--94eb2c05e11ed42004054fa5e17f
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>
> As long as "mixed" use cases are not strictly prohibited in the draft (and
> this was at least one possible interpretation of the text), I do not have
> any issues with restricting it to just two "pure" use cases:
> - End-to-end path protection with disabled local protection
> - Local protection (of some kind) without end-to-end path protection.
>

Use cases drafts should never attempt to be exhaustive in terms of what
they try and cover, but provide sufficient motivation for the features that
are/were required in the technology that is developed as a response to
them. In this case, the use case of path protection - especially with
disjointness requirements - provides motivation for wanting to have a SID
in the network that is explicitly not protected by local protection
mechanisms.

In RSVP-TE, we have the ability to set the "local protection requested" bit
described in RFC4090 - which gives the head-end the ability to control the
re-route behaviour of the LSP. This use case presents the operational case
for the B-flag in the IGP extensions.

Operators can, and will continue to, deploy things that (shockingly!) are
not described in IETF use case documents. At this point, if we consider
that this document provides some explanation of the features that are
required in the protocol - let's go ahead and publish it. Due to the
different technical and business requirements of different operators,
almost certainly, someone will deploy some combination of these features,
but I do not feel that we need to describe such unknown cases within this
document.

Kind regards,
r.

--94eb2c05e11ed42004054fa5e17f
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">=
As long as &quot;mixed&quot; use cases are not strictly prohibited in the d=
raft (and this was at least one possible interpretation of the text), I do =
not have any issues with restricting it to just two &quot;pure&quot; use ca=
ses:<br>
- End-to-end path protection with disabled local protection<br>
- Local protection (of some kind) without end-to-end path protection.<br></=
blockquote><div><br></div><div>Use cases drafts should never attempt to be =
exhaustive in terms of what they try and cover, but provide sufficient moti=
vation for the features that are/were required in the technology that is de=
veloped as a response to them. In this case, the use case of path protectio=
n - especially with disjointness requirements - provides motivation for wan=
ting to have a SID in the network that is explicitly not protected by local=
 protection mechanisms.</div><div><br></div><div>In RSVP-TE, we have the ab=
ility to set the &quot;local protection requested&quot; bit described in RF=
C4090 - which gives the head-end the ability to control the re-route behavi=
our of the LSP. This use case presents the operational case for the B-flag =
in the IGP extensions.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Operators can, and wi=
ll continue to, deploy things that (shockingly!) are not described in IETF =
use case documents. At this point, if we consider that this document provid=
es some explanation of the features that are required in the protocol - let=
&#39;s go ahead and publish it. Due to the different technical and business=
 requirements of different operators, almost certainly, someone will deploy=
 some combination of these features, but I do not feel that we need to desc=
ribe such unknown cases within this document.</div><div><br></div><div>Kind=
 regards,</div><div>r.</div></div></div>

--94eb2c05e11ed42004054fa5e17f--


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From: Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal <muthu.arul@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 21:41:18 +0530
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To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Cc: "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>,  Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>,  Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>,  "draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org>,  Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>, Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>,  Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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Sasha,

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 4:29 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:

> Muthu,
>
> An additional clarification:
>
> =C2=B7         If the link BC were OK, B could pop B from the stack and s=
end
> packets to C with just D in the stack
>
> =C2=B7         When the link BC fails, B will leave the stack as (CD) IMH=
O =E2=80=93 *it
> would be  just trying to bypass the failed link BC*.
>
> =C2=B7         If the failure of BC as perceived by B was cause by the fa=
ilure
> of node B, such a failure could not be recovered by local protection. *Th=
is
> is exactly the scenario where local protection for shortest SR path
> comprising an SR-TE path should be augmented by end-to-end path protectio=
n*
> .
>
=E2=80=8BIf node B fails, the e2e path monitoring at  node A would anyway d=
etect
the failure and switch the traffic over an alternate disjoint path...=E2=80=
=8B

>
>
> Regarding combination of local protection with end-to-end protection for
> RSVP-TE =E2=80=93 AFAIK this was never used because it would not provide =
any added
> value.
>
> In SR this is not so because local protection is usually faster (and
> scales better) than end-to-end protection, but, as opposed to RSVP-TE,
> there are failures that local protection cannot fix.
>

=E2=80=8BAgree, there are failures in SR-TE that local protection cannot fi=
x as
desired, so it calls for e2e path protection. However, enabling them
together is not always the best approach since it can introduce other
problems to solve.

Regards,
Muthu


>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 16, 2017 1:42 PM
> *To:* 'Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal' <muthu.arul@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) <sprevidi@cisco.com>; spring@ietf.org;
> Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-u
> se-cases@ietf.org; Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>; Ron Sdayoor <
> Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>; Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
> *Subject:* RE: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection
> in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
>
>
>
> Muthu,
>
> Again lots of thanks for a prompt response. I still do not think a loop
> would really form because:
>
> =C2=B7         A sends packet to its local next hop for B with the stack =
(B,
> C, D)
>
> =C2=B7         B receives this packet with the stack (C, D), but the link=
 C
> has failed. So B sends to its next hop for it back to A *with stack (C,D)=
*
>
> =C2=B7         A now sends the packet to its next hop for C with the same
> stack.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal [mailto:muthu.arul@gmail.com
> <muthu.arul@gmail.com>]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 16, 2017 1:25 PM
>
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Cc:* Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) <sprevidi@cisco.com>; spring@ietf.org;
> Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-u
> se-cases@ietf.org; Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>; Ron Sdayoor <
> Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>; Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection
> in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 3:27 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> Muthu,
>
> Lots of thanks for a prompt response.
>
>
>
> I do not think that the loop you have described would actually appear in
> the scenario you=E2=80=99ve described.
>
>
>
> To the best of my understanding of TI-LFA, B would send the traffic back
> to A *complete with an explicit route that says B**=C3=A0** A**=C3=A0** C=
**=C3=A0**D*,
> and no loop would be formed.
>
>
>
> Not necessarily. B was asked to send the traffic to C and knows that if i=
t
> sends the traffic to A, then A will send it to C over the shortest path
> (i.e from B's perspective only the labeled next-hop changes).
> Unfortunately, A has an explicit route pointing back to B (over the SR-TE
> tunnel T1) that B isn't aware of. If B does strict explicit route for
> everything, then B can run out of its MSD..
>
>
>
> =E2=80=8B
>
>
>
> Similar =E2=80=9Cloops=E2=80=9D can happen also in MPLS FRR with RSVP-TE =
when the PLR
> sends some traffic back  - but it sends it with the suitable label stack =
of
> the bypass tunnel so that eventually it reaches the MP.
>
>
>
> =E2=80=8BAre there existing deployments where both e2e path protection an=
d local
> protection are used together with RSVP-TE?
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Muthu
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal [mailto:muthu.arul@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 16, 2017 12:34 PM
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Cc:* Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) <sprevidi@cisco.com>; spring@ietf.org;
> Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-u
> se-cases@ietf.org; Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>; Ron Sdayoor <
> Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>; Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection
> in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
>
>
>
> Using end-to-end path protection together with local protection can resul=
t
> in traffic loops. Consider the foll. topology:
>
>
>
> B-----C
>
> |    / \
>
> |   /   \
>
> |  /     \
>
> | /       \D----+
>
> A/              Z (CE)
>
>  \         F----+
>
>   \       /
>
>    \     /
>
>     \   /
>
>      \E/
>
>
>
> - All links are of equal cost.
>
> - A, D and F are BGP peers.
>
> - Z is a dual-homed CE.
>
>
>
> A resolves its BGP next-hop D over the SR-TE tunnel T1.
>
> T1: A->B, B->C, C->D (loosely routed)
>
>
>
> Suppose A has enabled end-to-end path protection over tunnel T1 and B has
> TI-LFA enabled, and the detection timers are configured as described in
> your previous email. If the BC link goes down, B will immediately start
> rerouting the traffic via A (in FRR fashion) creating a loop b/w A and B.
>
>
>
> A solution would be to make the A-B link ineligible for TI-LFA backup
> computation at B. However, managing this network-wide could become
> operational expensive. Hence, deploying one of end-to-end path protection
> or local protection with sufficiently short detection timers keeps things
> simple, IMHO.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Muthu
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 1:59 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 16, 2017 11:28 AM
> *To:* 'Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)' <sprevidi@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org; spring@ietf.org;
> Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>;
> Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>; Rotem Cohen <
> Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
> *Subject:* RE: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection
> in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
>
>
>
> Stefano,
>
> Lots of thanks for a prompt response.
>
>
>
> A couple of short comments if you do not mind:
>
>
>
> *Using 2119 language in a "use cases" document*:
>
> 1.       Going back to the source I see that =E2=80=9CMUST NOT=E2=80=A6 m=
ean that the
> definition is an absolute prohibition of the specification=E2=80=9D
>
> 2.       I agree that the use case document defines which scenarios
> should be addressed, but I do not see how it can impose an absolute
> prohibition on a certain scenario.
>
>
>
> *Little sense link protection has in the case of path protection*:
>
> 1.       This was definitely correct for traditional traffic engineering
> because the =E2=80=9Cshortest traffic paths=E2=80=9D (e.g., LDL PSPs) cou=
ld be easily
> differentiated from the =E2=80=9Cengineered traffic paths=E2=80=9D.
>
> 2.       In addition, traditional local protection (e.g., MPLS FRR using
> RSVP-TE) could deal with link and node failures regardless of whether the
> failed link or node appeared in the ERO of the protected path.
>
> 3.       IMHO and FWIW, with SR  the situation is quite different:
>
> o   The shortest traffic paths not only coexist with engineered traffic
> paths: the latter are in many cases =E2=80=9Ctunneled=E2=80=9D within the=
 former.
>
> o   Path protection cannot be applied to shortest traffic paths so they
> must rely on local protection
>
> o   Local protection in the case of failure of a node or link that
> appears in the ERO of an engineered SR path is highly non-trivial at best=
,
> so path protection for the engineered LSPs looks like a preferred solutio=
n
> to me.
>
> I fully agree with you that the operators deploying SR should provide
> feedback on this point based on actual operational experience.
>
> Meanwhile I doubt that *a priori* declaring some use cases as absolutely
> prohibited is the right thing to do.
>
>
>
> My 2c,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) [mailto:sprevidi@cisco.com
> <sprevidi@cisco.com>]
> Sent: Monday, May 15, 2017 11:12 AM
> To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> Cc: draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org; spring@ietf.org;
> Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>;
> Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>; Rotem Cohen <
> Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
> Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in
> draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 11, 2017, at 12:04 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Hi all,
>
> > I have a belated (but hopefully late is still better than never) commen=
t
> on path protection as defined in Section 2 of the draft.
>
> >
>
> > This second para in this section says:
>
> >    A first protection strategy consists in excluding any local repair
>
> >
>
> >    but instead use end-to-end path protection where each SPRING path
>
> > is
>
> >
>
> >    protected by a second disjoint SPRING path.  In this case local
>
> >
>
> >    protection MUST NOT be used.
>
> >
>
> > First of all, I do not think that RFC 2119 language should be used in
> Informational documents, especially in the documents that describe use
> cases.
>
>
>
>
>
> this document is also a requirements document for the resiliency use-case=
.
> RFC2119 terminology is perfectly usable and even more, it adds clarity on
> what the solution is expected to provide.
>
>
>
>
>
> > In addition, I specifically disagree with the quoted statement above,
> because, from my POV:
>
> > =C2=B7         Local repair and end-to-end path protection can be combi=
ned
> for the same path
>
> > =C2=B7         Such a combination may be beneficial for the operators.
>
>
>
>
>
> are you talking by experience or is it just something that came into your
> mind ? I=E2=80=99d like to hear from operators using a combination of pat=
h and link
> protection.
>
>
>
> This document has been deeply reviewed also by operators and it has been
> always obvious the little sense link protection has in case of path
> protection.
>
>
>
>
>
> > One possible way to combine the two is described below:
>
> >
>
> > 1.       A pair of SR paths is set up between the given two nodes =E2=
=80=93
> later referred to as source and destination -  in the network. These path=
s
> are =E2=80=9CSR-disjoint=E2=80=9D in the sense that their =E2=80=9Cexplic=
it routes=E2=80=9D  do not have
> any common elements, be they nodes or adjacencies, with exclusion of the
> final destination
>
> > 2.       Local repair for these paths is enabled in the network. It is
> triggered by locally observed events (link failures etc.), applied by the
> nodes adjacent to the failure and guarantees that, in the case of a link =
or
> node failure that is not specified in the explicit route, traffic along t=
he
> affected path would be restored within <X> milliseconds
>
> > 3.       End-to-end liveness monitoring is enabled for the two SR paths=
,
> and detects end-to-end failures of these paths within <Y> milliseconds
> where Y >> X. In other words, end-to-end liveness monitoring for these
> paths will ignore any failures that local repair can fix, but will detect
> failures that cannot be locally repaired (e.g., failures of nodes or link=
s
> that have been specified in the explicit route of one of the paths
>
> > 4.       End-to-end liveness monitoring triggers end-to-end path
> protection to be applied by the source node in the following way:
>
> > a.       If it recognizes both paths as alive, one of them will carry
> the customer traffic, while the other one will be idle. The rules for
> selecting the active path in this scenario may vary
>
> > b.      If end-to-end failure of one of these paths is detected while
> the other one remains alive, traffic will be carried across the live path
>
> > c.       If end-to-end failure of both paths is detected (e.g., if the
> final destination node fails, or if the network is partitioned), this is
> recognized as an unrecoverable failure.
>
> >
>
> > From my POV the combination of local repair and end-to-end protection
> for SR paths is one of a few possibilities to protect such paths against
> failures of nodes and/or links that have been specified in their explicit
> routes. (Another option has been described in Node Protection for SR-TE
> Paths, but this draft has expired).
>
> >
>
> > Do I miss something substantial?
>
>
>
>
>
> to my view you created a use-case that doesn=E2=80=99t bring much to the =
picture
> but I=E2=80=99d let operators to comment.
>
>
>
> s.
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
> > Regards,
>
> > Sasha
>
> >
>
> > Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> > Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> > Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ______________________________________________________________________
>
> > _____
>
> >
>
> > This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
>
> > information which is CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI
>
> > Telecom. If you have received this transmission in error, please
>
> > inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then delete the original and all
> copies thereof.
>
> > ______________________________________________________________________
>
> > _____ _______________________________________________
>
> > spring mailing list
>
> > spring@ietf.org
>
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
> delete the original
> and all copies thereof.
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
> delete the original
> and all copies thereof.
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
> delete the original
> and all copies thereof.
> ____________________________________________________________
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>

--001a113d5d400bf917054fa66cdb
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Sasha,</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 4:29 PM, Alexander V=
ainshtein <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecit=
ele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;</s=
pan> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Muthu,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">An additional clarification:<u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491MsoListParagraph"><u>=
</u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#44546a"><span=
>=C2=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">If the =
link BC were OK, B could pop B from the stack and send packets to C with ju=
st D in the stack<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491MsoListParagraph"><u>=
</u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#44546a"><span=
>=C2=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">When th=
e link BC fails, B will leave the stack as (CD) IMHO =E2=80=93
<b><i>it would be =C2=A0just trying to bypass the failed link BC</i></b>.<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491MsoListParagraph"><u>=
</u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#44546a"><span=
>=C2=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">If the =
failure of BC as perceived by B was cause by the failure of node B, such a =
failure could not be recovered by local protection.
<b><i>This is exactly the scenario where local protection for shortest SR p=
ath comprising an SR-TE path should be augmented by end-to-end path protect=
ion</i></b>.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><div class=3D"gmail_de=
fault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;disp=
lay:inline">=E2=80=8BIf node B fails, the e2e path monitoring at =C2=A0node=
 A would anyway detect the failure and switch the traffic over an alternate=
 disjoint path...=E2=80=8B</div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div l=
ang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_61784135106766=
55620m_-497793380002912491WordSection1"><p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_=
-497793380002912491MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Regarding combination of local protec=
tion with end-to-end protection for RSVP-TE =E2=80=93 AFAIK this was never =
used because it would not provide any added value.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">In SR this is not so because local pr=
otection is usually faster (and scales better) than end-to-end protection, =
but, as opposed to RSVP-TE, there are failures
 that local protection cannot fix.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div>=
<br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helv=
etica,sans-serif;font-size:small">=E2=80=8BAgree, there are failures in SR-=
TE that local protection cannot fix as desired, so it calls for e2e path pr=
otection. However, enabling them together is not always the best approach s=
ince it can introduce other problems to solve.</div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif;font-size:small">Regards,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Muthu</div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:small"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></=
div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" =
vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491Wo=
rdSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u><u></u></span></p>=
<span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Sasha<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Office: <a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6=
302" value=3D"+97239266302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a><u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <=
a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" value=3D"+972549266302" target=3D"_blank"=
>+972-549266302</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:=
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ec=
itele.c<wbr>om</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</span><div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Alexander Vainshtein
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 16, 2017 1:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> &#39;Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:muthu.a=
rul@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">muthu.arul@gmail.com</a>&gt;<span><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sprevidi@cisco.=
com" target=3D"_blank">sprevidi@cisco.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:spring=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>; Shell Nakash &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Shell.Nakash@ecitele=
.com</a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky=
@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.c<wbr>om</a>&gt=
;; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-u<wbr>se-cases@ietf.org</a>; Sidd=
 Aanand &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Si=
dd.Aanand@ecitele.com</a>&gt;;
 Ron Sdayoor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Rotem Cohen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Rotem=
.Cohen@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com</a>&gt;<br>
</span><span><b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end p=
ath protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-u<wbr>se-cases<u></u><u></u>=
</span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Muthu,<u></u><u></u></span></p><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Again lots of thanks for a prompt res=
ponse. I still do not think a loop would really form because:<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491MsoListParagraph"><u>=
</u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#44546a"><span=
>=C2=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">A sends=
 packet to its local next hop for B with the stack (B, C, D)<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491MsoListParagraph"><u>=
</u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#44546a"><span=
>=C2=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">B recei=
ves this packet with the stack (C, D), but the link C has failed. So B send=
s to its next hop for it back to A
<i>with stack (C,D)</i><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491MsoListParagraph"><u>=
</u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#44546a"><span=
>=C2=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">A now s=
ends the packet to its next hop for C with the same stack.<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</span><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Sasha<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Office: <a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6=
302" value=3D"+97239266302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a><u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <=
a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" value=3D"+972549266302" target=3D"_blank"=
>+972-549266302</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.c<wbr>om</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</span><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Muthu Arul Mozhi Peruma=
l [<a href=3D"mailto:muthu.arul@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mailto:muthu.a=
rul@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 16, 2017 1:25 PM</span></p><div><div class=3D"m_6=
178413510676655620h5"><br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@=
ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt=
;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sprevidi@cisco.=
com" target=3D"_blank">sprevidi@cisco.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>; S=
hell Nakash &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Gorokhovsky@=
ecitele.c<wbr>om</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-u<wbr>se-cases@ietf.org</a>; Sidd =
Aanand &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Sid=
d.Aanand@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Ron Sdayoor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ron.Sdayoor=
@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com</a>&gt;;
 Rotem Cohen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protectio=
n in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-u<wbr>se-cases<u></u><u></u></div></div><=
p></p><div><div class=3D"m_6178413510676655620h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 3:27 PM, Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainsht=
ein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-right:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0=
cm 0cm 0cm 0cm;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-b=
ottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Muthu,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Lots of thanks for a prompt response.=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">I do not think that the loop you have=
 described would actually appear in the scenario you=E2=80=99ve described.<=
/span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">To the best of my understanding of TI=
-LFA, B would send the traffic back to A
<b>complete with an explicit route that says B</b></span><b><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#44546a">=C3=A0</span></b><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;c=
olor:#44546a"> A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:W=
ingdings;color:#44546a">=C3=A0</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">
 C</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color=
:#44546a">=C3=A0</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">D</span></b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">,
 and no loop would be formed. =C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Not necessarily. B was asked to send the traffic to C and knows that i=
f it sends the traffic to A, then A will send it to C over the shortest pat=
h (i.e from B&#39;s perspective only the labeled next-hop
 changes). Unfortunately, A has an explicit route pointing back to B (over =
the SR-TE tunnel T1) that B isn&#39;t aware of. If B does strict explicit r=
oute for everything, then B can run out of its MSD..=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-right:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0=
cm 0cm 0cm 0cm;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-b=
ottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=E2=80=8B<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Similar =E2=80=9Cloops=E2=80=9D can h=
appen also in MPLS FRR with RSVP-TE when the PLR sends some traffic back=C2=
=A0 - but
 it sends it with the suitable label stack of the bypass tunnel so that eve=
ntually it reaches the MP.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=E2=80=8BAre there existing deployments where both e2e path protection=
 and local protection are used together with RSVP-TE?<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Muthu<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-right:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0=
cm 0cm 0cm 0cm;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-b=
ottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Sasha</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.c<wbr>om</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#44546a">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal [mail=
to:<a href=3D"mailto:muthu.arul@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">muthu.arul@gma=
il.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 16, 2017 12:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@=
ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt=
;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sprevidi@cisco.=
com" target=3D"_blank">sprevidi@cisco.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>; S=
hell Nakash &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Gorokhovsky@=
ecitele.c<wbr>om</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">
draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-u<wbr>se-cases@ietf.org</a>; Sidd Aanand &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Sidd.Aanand@eci=
tele.com</a>&gt;; Ron Sdayoor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com=
" target=3D"_blank">Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Rotem
 Cohen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Rot=
em.Cohen@ecitele.com</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protectio=
n in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-u<wbr>se-cases<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
Using end-to-end path protection together with local protection can result =
in traffic loops. Consider the foll. topology:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
B-----C =C2=A0=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
| =C2=A0 =C2=A0/ \</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
| =C2=A0 / =C2=A0 \=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
| =C2=A0/ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 \</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
| / =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 \D----+=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
A/ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Z (CE)</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0\ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 F----+=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 \ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0\ =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 \ =C2=A0 /=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0\E/</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
- All links are of equal cost.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
- A, D and F are BGP peers.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
- Z is a dual-homed CE.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
A resolves its BGP next-hop D over the SR-TE tunnel T1.</span><u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
T1: A-&gt;B, B-&gt;C, C-&gt;D (loosely routed)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
Suppose A has enabled end-to-end path protection over tunnel T1 and B has T=
I-LFA enabled, and the detection timers are configured as described
 in your previous email. If the BC link goes down, B will immediately start=
 rerouting the traffic via A (in FRR fashion) creating a loop b/w A and B.<=
/span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
A solution would be to make the A-B link ineligible for TI-LFA backup compu=
tation at B. However, managing this network-wide could become
 operational expensive. Hence, deploying one of end-to-end path protection =
or local protection with sufficiently short detection timers keeps things s=
imple, IMHO.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
Muthu</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 1:59 PM, Alexander Vainshtei=
n &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 0cm;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">Regards,</span><u></u>=
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">Sasha</span><u></u><u>=
</u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.c<wbr>om</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546a">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Alexander Vainshtein
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 16, 2017 11:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> &#39;Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sprev=
idi@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">sprevidi@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank">
draft-ietf-spring-resliency-us<wbr>e-cases@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:=
spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
spring@ietf.org</a>; Shell Nakash &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Shell.Nakash@ecitel=
e.com" target=3D"_blank">Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhov=
sky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank=
">Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.c<wbr>om</a>&gt;; Sidd Aanand
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Sidd.Aana=
nd@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Ron Sdayoor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ron.Sdayoor@ecite=
le.com" target=3D"_blank">Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Rotem Cohen &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Rotem.Cohen@ec=
itele.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protectio=
n in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-u<wbr>se-cases<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">Stefano,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">Lots of thanks for a prompt response.<u></u=
><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">A couple of short comments if you do not mi=
nd:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext"><b><u>Using 2119 language in a &quot;use ca=
ses&quot; document</u></b>:
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">
1.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </sp=
an>Going back to the source I see that =E2=80=9CMUST NOT=E2=80=A6 mean that=
 the definition is an absolute prohibition of the specification=E2=80=9D<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">
2.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </sp=
an>I agree that the use case document defines which scenarios should be add=
ressed, but I do not see how it can impose an absolute prohibition on a cer=
tain scenario.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext"><b><u>Little sense link protection has in t=
he case of path protection</u></b>:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">
1.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </sp=
an>This was definitely correct for traditional traffic engineering because =
the =E2=80=9Cshortest traffic paths=E2=80=9D (e.g., LDL PSPs) could be easi=
ly differentiated from the =E2=80=9Cengineered traffic paths=E2=80=9D.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">
2.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </sp=
an>In addition, traditional local protection (e.g., MPLS FRR using RSVP-TE)=
 could deal with link and node failures regardless of whether the failed li=
nk or node appeared in the ERO of the protected path.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">
3.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </sp=
an>IMHO and FWIW, with SR=C2=A0 the situation is quite different:<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">o</span><span style=3D"=
font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>
The shortest traffic paths not only coexist with engineered traffic paths: =
the latter are in many cases =E2=80=9Ctunneled=E2=80=9D within the former.<=
u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">o</span><span style=3D"=
font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>
Path protection cannot be applied to shortest traffic paths so they must re=
ly on local protection<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext" style=3D"margin-left:72.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">o</span><span style=3D"=
font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>
Local protection in the case of failure of a node or link that appears in t=
he ERO of an engineered SR path is highly non-trivial at best, so path prot=
ection for the engineered LSPs looks like a preferred solution to me.<u></u=
><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt">
I fully agree with you that the operators deploying SR should provide feedb=
ack on this point based on actual operational experience.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext" style=3D"margin-left:18.0pt">
Meanwhile I doubt that <i>a priori</i> declaring some use cases as absolute=
ly prohibited is the right thing to do.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">My 2c,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">Sasha<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">Office: <a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" t=
arget=3D"_blank">
+972-39266302</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=
=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">
+972-549266302</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:Alexan=
der.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.c<wbr>om</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) [<a href=3D"mailto:sprevidi@cisco.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">mailto:sprevidi@cisco.com</a>]
<br>
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2017 11:12 AM<br>
To: Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele=
.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">
draft-ietf-spring-resliency-us<wbr>e-cases@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:=
spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
spring@ietf.org</a>; Shell Nakash &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Shell.Nakash@ecitel=
e.com" target=3D"_blank">Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhov=
sky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank=
">Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.c<wbr>om</a>&gt;; Sidd Aanand
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Sidd.Aana=
nd@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Ron Sdayoor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ron.Sdayoor@ecite=
le.com" target=3D"_blank">Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Rotem Cohen &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Rotem.Cohen@ec=
itele.com</a>&gt;<br>
Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in dr=
aft-ietf-spring-resiliency-u<wbr>se-cases<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; On May 11, 2017, at 12:04 PM, Alexande=
r Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=
=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">Alexander=
.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</span></a>&gt;
 wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; Hi all,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; I have a belated (but hopefully late i=
s still better than never) comment on path protection as defined in Section=
 2 of the draft.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; This second para in this section says:=
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A first protection s=
trategy consists in excluding any local repair<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 but instead use end-=
to-end path protection where each SPRING path
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; is<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 protected by a secon=
d disjoint SPRING path.=C2=A0 In this case local<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 protection MUST NOT =
be used.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; First of all, I do not think that RFC =
2119 language should be used in Informational documents, especially in the =
documents that describe use cases.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">this document is also a requirements docume=
nt for the resiliency use-case. RFC2119 terminology is perfectly usable and=
 even more, it adds clarity on what the solution is expected to provide.<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; In addition, I specifically disagree w=
ith the quoted statement above, because, from my POV:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; =C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Local repair and end-to-end path protection can be combi=
ned for the same path<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; =C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Such a combination may be beneficial for the operators.<=
u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">are you talking by experience or is it just=
 something that came into your mind ? I=E2=80=99d like to hear from operato=
rs using a combination of path and link protection.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">This document has been deeply reviewed also=
 by operators and it has been always obvious the little sense link protecti=
on has in case of path protection.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; One possible way to combine the two is=
 described below:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; 1.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 A pair of SR paths is set up between the given two nodes =E2=80=93 later r=
eferred to as source and destination -=C2=A0 in the network. These paths ar=
e =E2=80=9CSR-disjoint=E2=80=9D in the sense that their =E2=80=9Cexplicit
 routes=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 do not have any common elements, be they nodes or ad=
jacencies, with exclusion of the final destination<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; 2.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 Local repair for these paths is enabled in the network. It is triggered by=
 locally observed events (link failures etc.), applied by the nodes adjacen=
t to the failure and guarantees that,
 in the case of a link or node failure that is not specified in the explici=
t route, traffic along the affected path would be restored within &lt;X&gt;=
 milliseconds<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; 3.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 End-to-end liveness monitoring is enabled for the two SR paths, and detect=
s end-to-end failures of these paths within &lt;Y&gt; milliseconds where Y =
&gt;&gt; X. In other words, end-to-end liveness
 monitoring for these paths will ignore any failures that local repair can =
fix, but will detect failures that cannot be locally repaired (e.g., failur=
es of nodes or links that have been specified in the explicit route of one =
of the paths<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; 4.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 End-to-end liveness monitoring triggers end-to-end path protection to be a=
pplied by the source node in the following way:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; a.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 If it recognizes both paths as alive, one of them will carry the customer =
traffic, while the other one will be idle. The rules for selecting the acti=
ve path in this scenario may vary<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; b.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If en=
d-to-end failure of one of these paths is detected while the other one rema=
ins alive, traffic will be carried across the live path<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; c.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 If end-to-end failure of both paths is detected (e.g., if the final destin=
ation node fails, or if the network is partitioned), this is recognized as =
an unrecoverable failure.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; From my POV the combination of local r=
epair and end-to-end protection for SR paths is one of a few possibilities =
to protect such paths against failures of nodes and/or links that have been=
 specified
 in their explicit routes. (Another option has been described in Node Prote=
ction for SR-TE Paths, but this draft has expired).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; Do I miss something substantial?<u></u=
><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">to my view you created a use-case that does=
n=E2=80=99t bring much to the picture but I=E2=80=99d let operators to comm=
ent.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">s.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; Sasha<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; Office: <a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-63=
02" target=3D"_blank">
+972-39266302</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a=
 href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">
+972-549266302</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:A=
lexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">Alexander.Vainshtein@=
ecitele.c<wbr>om</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt;=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; ______________________________<wbr>___=
___________________________<wbr>__________<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; _____<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
894449629666138440msoplaintext">&gt; This e-mail message is intended for th=
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<p class=3D"m_6178413510676655620m_-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5=
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______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
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______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
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______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
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</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
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</div></div></div><div><div class=3D"m_6178413510676655620h5">
<br clear=3D"both">
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
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</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a113d5d400bf917054fa66cdb--


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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org>, Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>, Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>, Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>, Stephane Litkowski <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal <muthu.arul@gmail.com>
CC: "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>, "Michael Gorokhovsky" <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org>, Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>, Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>, Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal <muthu.arul@gmail.com>
CC: "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>, "Michael Gorokhovsky" <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org>, Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>, Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>, Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.21.0.170409
Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 09:57:45 -0700
From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <FD404255-6901-4A6B-BB90-62D3A9F45DEB@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
References: <AM4PR03MB1713393C262301279EAF29039DED0@AM4PR03MB1713.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <4CE8B71E-1CB7-43AF-9DA3-D936E030A2CA@cisco.com> <AM4PR03MB1713F46B5662731126099CFE9DE60@AM4PR03MB1713.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <CAKz0y8wPO6VcMJ6Ba_m1A5L2F5bh2rv7761C8vGo51H+xSRfuA@mail.gmail.com> <AM4PR03MB1713AAD69441A6C92D63B5919DE60@AM4PR03MB1713.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <CAKz0y8zHzneU4SUtH8RGp0kjKVc=XfFZ3uO6e8NNFGn0X383LQ@mail.gmail.com> <AM4PR03MB171393C194C01D56F00513E59DE60@AM4PR03MB1713.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <CAKz0y8xnkL10YFr7+V8i5ECe0Zgzr7hELgKnHjDxm5WgOzdPjQ@mail.gmail.com> <AM4PR03MB17134890B40531136D7EE5719DE60@AM4PR03MB1713.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <15C96387-0796-4E0A-9C79-E5B6576D2829@gmail.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/KKp9eMM7YTLlxznN03iWBJ-pzQ4>
Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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resending with reduced number of recipients.

=20

Cheers,

Jeff

=20

Sasha,

=20

Don=E2=80=99t forget =E2=80=93 RSVP-TE FRR has explicit signaling and state associated =
with it, as well as well defined state transitions, SR on contrary doesn=E2=80=99t=
.=20

Changes in topology (link/node down events) are not communicated back to th=
e head-end directly but rather flooded thru a routing protocol (for sake of =
this discussion lets ignore the possibility of running fast failure detectio=
n over SR tunnels).

Trying to derive operation state at PLR based on transitional changes in a =
routing protocol is a rather complicated task.

=20

Cheers,

Jeff

=20

=20

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Alexander Vainshtein <A=
lexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Date: Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 09:23
To: Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal <muthu.arul@gmail.com>
Cc: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele=
.com>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-sp=
ring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@=
ietf.org>, Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>, "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi=
)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>, Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>, Rotem Cohen =
<Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in dr=
aft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases

=20

Muthu,

Again lots of thanks for a prompt response.

=20

We seem to agree on the following points:

=C2=B7         In SR some failures cannot be handled by local protection (actua=
lly, there is an expired draft that defines how this could be done, but it i=
ntroduces serious complexity)

=C2=B7         Combining local protection with end-to-end path protection is po=
ssible. In particular, such a combination speeds up handling of failures tha=
t that can be handled locally while also handling failures that could not be=
 addressed by local protection.

=20

Whether combining both forms of protection carries with it some new problem=
s or not is a different story.

=20

Regards,

Sasha

=20

Office: +972-39266302

Cell:      +972-549266302

Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com

=20

From: Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal [mailto:muthu.arul@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2017 7:11 PM
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Cc: Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) <sprevidi@cisco.com>; spring@ietf.org; Shell=
 Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>; Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky=
@ecitele.com>; draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org; Sidd Aanand =
<Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>; Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>; Rotem Cohe=
n <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in dr=
aft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases

=20

Sasha,

=20

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 4:29 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein=
@ecitele.com> wrote:

Muthu,

An additional clarification:

=C2=B7         If the link BC were OK, B could pop B from the stack and send pa=
ckets to C with just D in the stack

=C2=B7         When the link BC fails, B will leave the stack as (CD) IMHO =E2=80=93 =
it would be  just trying to bypass the failed link BC.

=C2=B7         If the failure of BC as perceived by B was cause by the failure =
of node B, such a failure could not be recovered by local protection. This i=
s exactly the scenario where local protection for shortest SR path comprisin=
g an SR-TE path should be augmented by end-to-end path protection.

=E2=80=8BIf node B fails, the e2e path monitoring at  node A would anyway detect =
the failure and switch the traffic over an alternate disjoint path...=E2=80=8B

=20

Regarding combination of local protection with end-to-end protection for RS=
VP-TE =E2=80=93 AFAIK this was never used because it would not provide any added v=
alue.=20

In SR this is not so because local protection is usually faster (and scales=
 better) than end-to-end protection, but, as opposed to RSVP-TE, there are f=
ailures that local protection cannot fix.

=20

=E2=80=8BAgree, there are failures in SR-TE that local protection cannot fix as d=
esired, so it calls for e2e path protection. However, enabling them together=
 is not always the best approach since it can introduce other problems to so=
lve.

=20

Regards,

Muthu

=20

=20

Regards,

Sasha

=20

Office: +972-39266302

Cell:      +972-549266302

Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com

=20

From: Alexander Vainshtein=20
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2017 1:42 PM
To: 'Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal' <muthu.arul@gmail.com>
Cc: Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) <sprevidi@cisco.com>; spring@ietf.org; Shell=
 Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>; Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky=
@ecitele.com>; draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org; Sidd Aanand =
<Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>; Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>; Rotem Cohe=
n <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
Subject: RE: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in dr=
aft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases

=20

Muthu,

Again lots of thanks for a prompt response. I still do not think a loop wou=
ld really form because:

=C2=B7         A sends packet to its local next hop for B with the stack (B, C,=
 D)

=C2=B7         B receives this packet with the stack (C, D), but the link C has=
 failed. So B sends to its next hop for it back to A with stack (C,D)

=C2=B7         A now sends the packet to its next hop for C with the same stack=
.

=20

Regards,

Sasha

=20

Office: +972-39266302

Cell:      +972-549266302

Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com

=20

From: Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal [mailto:muthu.arul@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2017 1:25 PM


To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Cc: Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) <sprevidi@cisco.com>; spring@ietf.org; Shell=
 Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>; Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky=
@ecitele.com>; draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org; Sidd Aanand =
<Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>; Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>; Rotem Cohe=
n <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in dr=
aft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases

=20

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 3:27 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein=
@ecitele.com> wrote:

Muthu,

Lots of thanks for a prompt response.

=20

I do not think that the loop you have described would actually appear in th=
e scenario you=E2=80=99ve described.

=20

To the best of my understanding of TI-LFA, B would send the traffic back to=
 A complete with an explicit route that says B=C3=A0 A=C3=A0 C=C3=A0D, and no loop would=
 be formed. =20

=20

Not necessarily. B was asked to send the traffic to C and knows that if it =
sends the traffic to A, then A will send it to C over the shortest path (i.e=
 from B's perspective only the labeled next-hop changes). Unfortunately, A h=
as an explicit route pointing back to B (over the SR-TE tunnel T1) that B is=
n't aware of. If B does strict explicit route for everything, then B can run=
 out of its MSD..=20

=20

=E2=80=8B

=20

Similar =E2=80=9Cloops=E2=80=9D can happen also in MPLS FRR with RSVP-TE when the PLR s=
ends some traffic back  - but it sends it with the suitable label stack of t=
he bypass tunnel so that eventually it reaches the MP.

=20

=E2=80=8BAre there existing deployments where both e2e path protection and local =
protection are used together with RSVP-TE?

=20

Regards,

Muthu

=20

=20

Regards,

Sasha

=20

Office: +972-39266302

Cell:      +972-549266302

Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com

=20

From: Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal [mailto:muthu.arul@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2017 12:34 PM
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Cc: Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) <sprevidi@cisco.com>; spring@ietf.org; Shell=
 Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>; Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky=
@ecitele.com>; draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org; Sidd Aanand =
<Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>; Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>; Rotem Cohe=
n <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>


Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in dr=
aft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases

=20

Using end-to-end path protection together with local protection can result =
in traffic loops. Consider the foll. topology:

=20

B-----C  =20

|    / \

|   /   \=20

|  /     \

| /       \D----+=20

A/              Z (CE)

 \         F----+=20

  \       /

   \     /

    \   /=20

     \E/

=20

- All links are of equal cost.

- A, D and F are BGP peers.

- Z is a dual-homed CE.

=20

A resolves its BGP next-hop D over the SR-TE tunnel T1.

T1: A->B, B->C, C->D (loosely routed)

=20

Suppose A has enabled end-to-end path protection over tunnel T1 and B has T=
I-LFA enabled, and the detection timers are configured as described in your =
previous email. If the BC link goes down, B will immediately start rerouting=
 the traffic via A (in FRR fashion) creating a loop b/w A and B.

=20

A solution would be to make the A-B link ineligible for TI-LFA backup compu=
tation at B. However, managing this network-wide could become operational ex=
pensive. Hence, deploying one of end-to-end path protection or local protect=
ion with sufficiently short detection timers keeps things simple, IMHO.

=20

Regards,

Muthu

=20

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 1:59 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein=
@ecitele.com> wrote:

=20

=20

Regards,

Sasha

=20

Office: +972-39266302

Cell:      +972-549266302

Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com

=20

From: Alexander Vainshtein=20
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2017 11:28 AM
To: 'Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)' <sprevidi@cisco.com>
Cc: draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org; spring@ietf.org; Shell =
Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>; Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@=
ecitele.com>; Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>; Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoo=
r@ecitele.com>; Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
Subject: RE: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in dr=
aft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases

=20

Stefano,

Lots of thanks for a prompt response.

=20

A couple of short comments if you do not mind:

=20

Using 2119 language in a "use cases" document:=20

1.       Going back to the source I see that =E2=80=9CMUST NOT=E2=80=A6 mean that the d=
efinition is an absolute prohibition of the specification=E2=80=9D

2.       I agree that the use case document defines which scenarios should =
be addressed, but I do not see how it can impose an absolute prohibition on =
a certain scenario.=20

=20

Little sense link protection has in the case of path protection:

1.       This was definitely correct for traditional traffic engineering be=
cause the =E2=80=9Cshortest traffic paths=E2=80=9D (e.g., LDL PSPs) could be easily diff=
erentiated from the =E2=80=9Cengineered traffic paths=E2=80=9D.=20

2.       In addition, traditional local protection (e.g., MPLS FRR using RS=
VP-TE) could deal with link and node failures regardless of whether the fail=
ed link or node appeared in the ERO of the protected path.

3.       IMHO and FWIW, with SR  the situation is quite different:

o   The shortest traffic paths not only coexist with engineered traffic pat=
hs: the latter are in many cases =E2=80=9Ctunneled=E2=80=9D within the former.

o   Path protection cannot be applied to shortest traffic paths so they mus=
t rely on local protection

o   Local protection in the case of failure of a node or link that appears =
in the ERO of an engineered SR path is highly non-trivial at best, so path p=
rotection for the engineered LSPs looks like a preferred solution to me.

I fully agree with you that the operators deploying SR should provide feedb=
ack on this point based on actual operational experience.=20

Meanwhile I doubt that a priori declaring some use cases as absolutely proh=
ibited is the right thing to do.

=20

My 2c,

Sasha

=20

Office: +972-39266302

Cell:      +972-549266302

Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com

=20

=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) [mailto:sprevidi@cisco.com]=20
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2017 11:12 AM
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Cc: draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org; spring@ietf.org; Shell =
Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>; Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@=
ecitele.com>; Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>; Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoo=
r@ecitele.com>; Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in dr=
aft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases

=20

=20

> On May 11, 2017, at 12:04 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@=
ecitele.com> wrote:

>=20

> Hi all,

> I have a belated (but hopefully late is still better than never) comment =
on path protection as defined in Section 2 of the draft.

> =20

> This second para in this section says:

>    A first protection strategy consists in excluding any local repair

>=20

>    but instead use end-to-end path protection where each SPRING path=20

> is

>=20

>    protected by a second disjoint SPRING path.  In this case local

>=20

>    protection MUST NOT be used.

>=20

> First of all, I do not think that RFC 2119 language should be used in Inf=
ormational documents, especially in the documents that describe use cases.

=20

=20

this document is also a requirements document for the resiliency use-case. =
RFC2119 terminology is perfectly usable and even more, it adds clarity on wh=
at the solution is expected to provide.

=20

=20

> In addition, I specifically disagree with the quoted statement above, bec=
ause, from my POV:

> =C2=B7         Local repair and end-to-end path protection can be combined fo=
r the same path

> =C2=B7         Such a combination may be beneficial for the operators.

=20

=20

are you talking by experience or is it just something that came into your m=
ind ? I=E2=80=99d like to hear from operators using a combination of path and link=
 protection.

=20

This document has been deeply reviewed also by operators and it has been al=
ways obvious the little sense link protection has in case of path protection=
.

=20

=20

> One possible way to combine the two is described below:

> =20

> 1.       A pair of SR paths is set up between the given two nodes =E2=80=93 lat=
er referred to as source and destination -  in the network. These paths are =
=E2=80=9CSR-disjoint=E2=80=9D in the sense that their =E2=80=9Cexplicit routes=E2=80=9D  do not have=
 any common elements, be they nodes or adjacencies, with exclusion of the fi=
nal destination

> 2.       Local repair for these paths is enabled in the network. It is tr=
iggered by locally observed events (link failures etc.), applied by the node=
s adjacent to the failure and guarantees that, in the case of a link or node=
 failure that is not specified in the explicit route, traffic along the affe=
cted path would be restored within <X> milliseconds

> 3.       End-to-end liveness monitoring is enabled for the two SR paths, =
and detects end-to-end failures of these paths within <Y> milliseconds where=
 Y >> X. In other words, end-to-end liveness monitoring for these paths will=
 ignore any failures that local repair can fix, but will detect failures tha=
t cannot be locally repaired (e.g., failures of nodes or links that have bee=
n specified in the explicit route of one of the paths

> 4.       End-to-end liveness monitoring triggers end-to-end path protecti=
on to be applied by the source node in the following way:

> a.       If it recognizes both paths as alive, one of them will carry the=
 customer traffic, while the other one will be idle. The rules for selecting=
 the active path in this scenario may vary

> b.      If end-to-end failure of one of these paths is detected while the=
 other one remains alive, traffic will be carried across the live path

> c.       If end-to-end failure of both paths is detected (e.g., if the fi=
nal destination node fails, or if the network is partitioned), this is recog=
nized as an unrecoverable failure.

> =20

> From my POV the combination of local repair and end-to-end protection for=
 SR paths is one of a few possibilities to protect such paths against failur=
es of nodes and/or links that have been specified in their explicit routes. =
(Another option has been described in Node Protection for SR-TE Paths, but t=
his draft has expired).

> =20

> Do I miss something substantial?

=20

=20

to my view you created a use-case that doesn=E2=80=99t bring much to the picture =
but I=E2=80=99d let operators to comment.

=20

s.

=20

=20

> =20

> Regards,

> Sasha

> =20

> Office: +972-39266302

> Cell:      +972-549266302

> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com

> =20

>=20

> ______________________________________________________________________

> _____

>=20

> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains=20

> information which is CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI=20

> Telecom. If you have received this transmission in error, please=20

> inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then delete the original and all c=
opies thereof.

> ______________________________________________________________________

> _____ _______________________________________________

> spring mailing list

> spring@ietf.org

> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

=20


___________________________________________________________________________

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=20


___________________________________________________________________________

This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is=20
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
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transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original=20
and all copies thereof.
___________________________________________________________________________

=20


___________________________________________________________________________

This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is=20
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
ved this=20
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original=20
and all copies thereof.
___________________________________________________________________________

=20


___________________________________________________________________________

This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is=20
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
ved this=20
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
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--></style></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><di=
v class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri'>resending with reduced number of recipients.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calib=
ri;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri;colo=
r:black'>Jeff<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'marg=
in-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-le=
ft:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri'>Sasha,</span><o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri=
'>Don&#8217;t forget &#8211; RSVP-TE FRR has explicit signaling and state as=
sociated with it, as well as well defined state transitions, SR on contrary =
doesn&#8217;t. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.=
5in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri'>Changes in topology =
(link/node down events) are not communicated back to the head-end directly b=
ut rather flooded thru a routing protocol (for sake of this discussion lets =
ignore the possibility of running fast failure detection over SR tunnels).</=
span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D=
'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri'>Trying to derive operation state at P=
LR based on transitional changes in a routing protocol is a rather complicat=
ed task.</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5i=
n'><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>&nbsp;</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Cheers,</span><o:p></o:p></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;=
font-family:Calibri;color:black'>Jeff</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:C=
alibri'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5=
in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o=
:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><b><span style=3D'fo=
nt-family:Calibri;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-family:Cal=
ibri;color:black'>spring &lt;spring-bounces@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of Alexan=
der Vainshtein &lt;Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Tues=
day, May 16, 2017 at 09:23<br><b>To: </b>Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal &lt;muthu.=
arul@gmail.com&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>&quot;spring@ietf.org&quot; &lt;spring@ietf=
.org&gt;, Shell Nakash &lt;Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com&gt;, Michael Gorokhovsky=
 &lt;Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com&gt;, &quot;draft-ietf-spring-resiliency=
-use-cases@ietf.org&quot; &lt;draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.or=
g&gt;, Sidd Aanand &lt;Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com&gt;, &quot;Stefano Previdi (s=
previdi)&quot; &lt;sprevidi@cisco.com&gt;, Ron Sdayoor &lt;Ron.Sdayoor@ecite=
le.com&gt;, Rotem Cohen &lt;Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>R=
e: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-sp=
ring-resiliency-use-cases</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal=
 style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal sty=
le=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;col=
or:#44546A'>Muthu,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-lef=
t:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>Ag=
ain lots of thanks for a prompt response.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Ca=
libri;color:#44546A'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'm=
argin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#4=
4546A'>We seem to agree on the following points:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol'><span sty=
le=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>In SR some failur=
es cannot be handled by local protection (actually, there is an expired draf=
t that defines how this could be done, but it introduces serious complexity)=
</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-left:1.5in;tex=
t-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'f=
ont-family:Symbol'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "=
Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></=
span></span><![endif]><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;colo=
r:#44546A'>Combining local protection with end-to-end path protection is pos=
sible. In particular, such a combination speeds up handling of failures that=
 that can be handled locally while also handling failures that could not be =
addressed by local protection.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color=
:#44546A'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:=
1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>Whet=
her combining both forms of protection carries with it some new problems or =
not is a different story.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mar=
gin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#445=
46A'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in=
'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>Regards,<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>Sasha</span><o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri;color:#44546A'>Office: +972-39266302</span><o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri;color:#44546A'>Cell:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +972-54926630=
2</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>Email:&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal sty=
le=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;col=
or:#44546A'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-lef=
t:1.0in'><b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri'>From:</span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri'> Muthu Arul Mozhi Peru=
mal [mailto:muthu.arul@gmail.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 16, 2017 7:1=
1 PM<br><b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com=
&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) &lt;sprevidi@cisco.com&gt;; sp=
ring@ietf.org; Shell Nakash &lt;Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com&gt;; Michael Gorokh=
ovsky &lt;Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com&gt;; draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-=
use-cases@ietf.org; Sidd Aanand &lt;Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com&gt;; Ron Sdayoor=
 &lt;Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com&gt;; Rotem Cohen &lt;Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com&gt=
;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path prote=
ction in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases</span><o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-family:Arial'>Sasha,=
</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in=
'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>On =
Tue, May 16, 2017 at 4:29 PM, Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:so=
lid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0=
pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D=
'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span=
 style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>Muthu,</span><o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bot=
tom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Ca=
libri;color:#44546A'>An additional clarification:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491msolistparagraph style=3D'margin-l=
eft:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#44546A'>=C2=
=B7</span><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#44546A'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Ca=
libri;color:#44546A'>If the link BC were OK, B could pop B from the stack an=
d send packets to C with just D in the stack</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm=
6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491msolistparagraph style=3D'margin-left:1=
.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#44546A'>=C2=B7</sp=
an><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#44546A'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri=
;color:#44546A'>When the link BC fails, B will leave the stack as (CD) IMHO =
&#8211; <b><i>it would be &nbsp;just trying to bypass the failed link BC</i>=
</b>.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491=
msolistparagraph style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;fon=
t-family:Symbol;color:#44546A'>=C2=B7</span><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#=
44546A'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span style=3D=
'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>If the failure of BC as=
 perceived by B was cause by the failure of node B, such a failure could not=
 be recovered by local protection. <b><i>This is exactly the scenario where =
local protection for shortest SR path comprising an SR-TE path should be aug=
mented by end-to-end path protection</i></b>.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></d=
iv></blockquote><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span=
 style=3D'font-family:Arial'>=E2=80=8BIf node B fails, the e2e path monitoring at &n=
bsp;node A would anyway detect the failure and switch the traffic over an al=
ternate disjoint path...=E2=80=8B</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><blockquote sty=
le=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;ma=
rgin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;c=
olor:#44546A'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-marg=
in-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>Regarding combination of =
local protection with end-to-end protection for RSVP-TE &#8211; AFAIK this w=
as never used because it would not provide any added value. </span><o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;=
color:#44546A'>In SR this is not so because local protection is usually fast=
er (and scales better) than end-to-end protection, but, as opposed to RSVP-T=
E, there are failures that local protection cannot fix.</span><o:p></o:p></p=
></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>=
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1=
.0in'><span style=3D'font-family:Arial'>=E2=80=8BAgree, there are failures in SR-TE =
that local protection cannot fix as desired, so it calls for e2e path protec=
tion. However, enabling them together is not always the best approach since =
it can introduce other problems to solve.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-family:Arial'>&=
nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:=
1.0in'><span style=3D'font-family:Arial'>Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-family:Ar=
ial'>Muthu</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-=
left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></di=
v></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;paddi=
ng:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;mar=
gin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:aut=
o;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margi=
n-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546=
A'>Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-al=
t:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>Sasha</span><o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin=
-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A=
'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:a=
uto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>Office: <a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-630=
2" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
 style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in=
'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>Cell:&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">=
+972-549266302</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin=
-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>Email:&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=3D=
"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshte=
in@ecitele.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-=
margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o=
:p></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3=
.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-marg=
in-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:Calibri'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Ca=
libri'> Alexander Vainshtein <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 16, 2017 1:42 PM<=
br><b>To:</b> 'Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal' &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:muthu.arul@gmai=
l.com" target=3D"_blank">muthu.arul@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> Stefano Pr=
evidi (sprevidi) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sprevidi@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">spr=
evidi@cisco.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sp=
ring@ietf.org</a>; Shell Nakash &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com=
" target=3D"_blank">Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Gor=
okhovsky@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-u=
se-cases@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ie=
tf.org</a>; Sidd Aanand &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com" target=3D=
"_blank">Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Ron Sdayoor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ro=
n.Sdayoor@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Rote=
m Cohen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Rotem.C=
ohen@ecitele.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] A belated comment o=
n end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases</span=
><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:aut=
o;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin=
-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A=
'>Muthu,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:a=
uto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>Again lots of thanks for a prompt res=
ponse. I still do not think a loop would really form because:</span><o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491msolistparagraph sty=
le=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;colo=
r:#44546A'>=C2=B7</span><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#44546A'>&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>A sends packet to its local next hop for B =
with the stack (B, C, D)</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m=
-497793380002912491msolistparagraph style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#44546A'>=C2=B7</span><span style=3D'font=
-size:7.0pt;color:#44546A'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>B re=
ceives this packet with the stack (C, D), but the link C has failed. So B se=
nds to its next hop for it back to A <i>with stack (C,D)</i></span><o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491msolistparagraph styl=
e=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color=
:#44546A'>=C2=B7</span><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#44546A'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>A now sends the packet to its next hop for C=
 with the same stack.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-mar=
gin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:=
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;co=
lor:#44546A'>Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-mar=
gin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>Sasha</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:a=
uto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;col=
or:#44546A'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin=
-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>Office: <a href=3D"tel:+972%2=
03-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-=
left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'=
>Cell:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=
=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'=
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>Email:&nbsp;&nbsp=
; <a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexande=
r.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'=
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>&nbsp;</span><o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bott=
om-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
Calibri'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri'>=
 Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal [<a href=3D"mailto:muthu.arul@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">mailto:muthu.arul@gmail.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 16, 2017=
 1:25 PM</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-lef=
t:1.0in'><br><b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.V=
ainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&=
gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> Stefano Previdi (sprevidi) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sprevidi@ci=
sco.com" target=3D"_blank">sprevidi@cisco.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>; Shell Nakash &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com</a>&g=
t;; Michael Gorokhovsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:dr=
aft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-sp=
ring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org</a>; Sidd Aanand &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Sidd=
.Aanand@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Ron Sd=
ayoor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Ron.Sdayo=
or@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Rotem Cohen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.=
com" target=3D"_blank">Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-sprin=
g-resiliency-use-cases<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0i=
n'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-a=
lt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-fami=
ly:Arial'>On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 3:27 PM, Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshte=
in@ecitele.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><blockquo=
te style=3D'border:none;border-right:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0=
in;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>=
<div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-botto=
m-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Cali=
bri;color:#44546A'>Muthu,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso=
-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>Lots of thanks for a=
 prompt response.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-=
top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font=
-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto=
;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:=
#44546A'>I do not think that the loop you have described would actually appe=
ar in the scenario you&#8217;ve described.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMso=
Normal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left=
:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>&nb=
sp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;m=
so-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>To the best of my understanding of TI-LFA,=
 B would send the traffic back to A <b>complete with an explicit route that =
says B</b></span><b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;colo=
r:#44546A'>=C3=A0</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri=
;color:#44546A'> A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wi=
ngdings;color:#44546A'>=C3=A0</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri;color:#44546A'> C</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:Wingdings;color:#44546A'>=C3=A0</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>D</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>, and no loop would be formed. &nbs=
p;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal sty=
le=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-=
alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-fam=
ily:Arial'>Not necessarily. B was asked to send the traffic to C and knows t=
hat if it sends the traffic to A, then A will send it to C over the shortest=
 path (i.e from B's perspective only the labeled next-hop changes). Unfortun=
ately, A has an explicit route pointing back to B (over the SR-TE tunnel T1)=
 that B isn't aware of. If B does strict explicit route for everything, then=
 B can run out of its MSD..&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mar=
gin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;bo=
rder-right:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;margin-left:4.8pt;mar=
gin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-l=
eft:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-family:Arial'>=E2=80=8B</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;m=
argin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-=
top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font=
-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>Similar &#8220;loops&#8221; =
can happen also in MPLS FRR with RSVP-TE when the PLR sends some traffic bac=
k&nbsp; - but it sends it with the suitable label stack of the bypass tunnel=
 so that eventually it reaches the MP.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></bl=
ockquote><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-b=
ottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;marg=
in-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-family:Arial'>=E2=80=8BAre there existing deploym=
ents where both e2e path protection and local protection are used together w=
ith RSVP-TE?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-m=
argin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=
=3D'font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0=
in'><span style=3D'font-family:Arial'>Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:aut=
o;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-family:Arial'>Muthu</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-m=
argin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockqu=
ote style=3D'border:none;border-right:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
0in;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'=
><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bott=
om-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri;color:#44546A'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'ms=
o-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>Regards,</span><o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bott=
om-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri;color:#44546A'>Sasha</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso=
-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-=
alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibr=
i;color:#44546A'>Office: <a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+97=
2-39266302</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top=
-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#44546A'>Cell:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; <a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-marg=
in-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri;color:#44546A'>Email:&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vain=
shtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a></sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-marg=
in-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri;color:#44546A'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><=
b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri'>From:</span></b><span s=
tyle=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri'> Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal [mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:muthu.arul@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">muthu.arul@gmail.com=
</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 16, 2017 12:34 PM<br><b>To:</b> Alexande=
r Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_=
blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> Stefano Previd=
i (sprevidi) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sprevidi@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">sprevid=
i@cisco.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>; Shell Nakash &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Gorokho=
vsky@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-c=
ases@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.o=
rg</a>; Sidd Aanand &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Ron Sdayoor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ron.Sd=
ayoor@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Rotem Co=
hen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Rotem.Cohen=
@ecitele.com</a>&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><br>=
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection=
 in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:a=
uto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0i=
n'><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>Using end-to-end path protection =
together with local protection can result in traffic loops. Consider the fol=
l. topology:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-m=
argin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p>=
</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-m=
argin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier N=
ew"'>B-----C &nbsp;&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal=
 style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in=
'><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>| &nbsp; &nbsp;/ \</span><o:p></o:=
p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margi=
n-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'=
>| &nbsp; / &nbsp; \&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0i=
n'><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>| &nbsp;/ &nbsp; &nbsp; \</span><=
o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;m=
so-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-family:"Couri=
er New"'>| / &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; \D----+&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:=
auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>A/ &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Z (CE)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:au=
to;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&nbsp;\ &nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; F----+&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-l=
eft:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&nbsp; \ &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; /</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-=
top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font=
-family:"Courier New"'>&nbsp; &nbsp;\ &nbsp; &nbsp; /</span><o:p></o:p></p><=
/div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-botto=
m-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; \ &nbsp; /&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'=
><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;\E/</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-m=
argin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;ma=
rgin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>- All links are of =
equal cost.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-ma=
rgin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D=
'font-family:"Courier New"'>- A, D and F are BGP peers.</span><o:p></o:p></p=
></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bot=
tom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>- Z =
is a dual-homed CE.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbs=
p;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:aut=
o;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-family:"Co=
urier New"'>A resolves its BGP next-hop D over the SR-TE tunnel T1.</span><o=
:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;ms=
o-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-family:"Courie=
r New"'>T1: A-&gt;B, B-&gt;C, C-&gt;D (loosely routed)</span><o:p></o:p></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bott=
om-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:=
1.0in'><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>Suppose A has enabled end-to-=
end path protection over tunnel T1 and B has TI-LFA enabled, and the detecti=
on timers are configured as described in your previous email. If the BC link=
 goes down, B will immediately start rerouting the traffic via A (in FRR fas=
hion) creating a loop b/w A and B.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-l=
eft:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-mar=
gin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'=
font-family:"Courier New"'>A solution would be to make the A-B link ineligib=
le for TI-LFA backup computation at B. However, managing this network-wide c=
ould become operational expensive. Hence, deploying one of end-to-end path p=
rotection or local protection with sufficiently short detection timers keeps=
 things simple, IMHO.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal sty=
le=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:a=
uto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-family:"=
Courier New"'>Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><=
span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>Muthu</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal styl=
e=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>On =
Tue, May 16, 2017 at 1:59 PM, Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:so=
lid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt=
;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'm=
so-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span s=
tyle=3D'color:#44546A'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'm=
so-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span s=
tyle=3D'color:#44546A'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal sty=
le=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><s=
pan style=3D'color:#44546A'>Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal s=
tyle=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>=
<span style=3D'color:#44546A'>Sasha</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><=
span style=3D'color:#44546A'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><=
span style=3D'color:#44546A'>Office: <a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_=
blank">+972-39266302</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-=
margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span styl=
e=3D'color:#44546A'>Cell:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=3D"tel:+972%2054=
-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-l=
eft:1.0in'><span style=3D'color:#44546A'>Email:&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=3D"mailto:Al=
exander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele=
.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top=
-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'color:#=
44546A'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:=
solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso=
-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><b>From:<=
/b> Alexander Vainshtein <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 16, 2017 11:28 AM<br>=
<b>To:</b> 'Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)' &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sprevidi@cisco.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">sprevidi@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto=
:draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-=
spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>; Shell Nakash &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Shell.Na=
kash@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Michael =
Gorokhovsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Sidd Aanand &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; =
Ron Sdayoor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Ron=
.Sdayoor@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Rotem Cohen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Rotem.Cohen@ec=
itele.com" target=3D"_blank">Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b=
> RE: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf=
-spring-resiliency-use-cases<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m947722=
130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>Stefa=
no,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m94772213=
0701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>Lots of=
 thanks for a prompt response.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-=
497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D=
'margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-4977=
93380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'mar=
gin-left:1.0in'>A couple of short comments if you do not mind:<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m589444=
9629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629=
666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><b><u>Using 2119 language in=
 a &quot;use cases&quot; document</u></b>: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm61784135=
10676655620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msopla=
intext style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>1.<span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Going back to the source I see that &#8220;=
MUST NOT&#8230; mean that the definition is an absolute prohibition of the s=
pecification&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-49779338000=
2912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-lef=
t:1.5in'>2.<span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; </span>I agree that the use case document defines which scenarios should b=
e addressed, but I do not see how it can impose an absolute prohibition on a=
 certain scenario. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-49779338000=
2912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-lef=
t:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912=
491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.=
0in'><b><u>Little sense link protection has in the case of path protection</=
u></b>:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m9477=
22130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>1.<=
span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Thi=
s was definitely correct for traditional traffic engineering because the &#8=
220;shortest traffic paths&#8221; (e.g., LDL PSPs) could be easily different=
iated from the &#8220;engineered traffic paths&#8221;. <o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666=
138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>2.<span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt'=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>In addition, traditional local =
protection (e.g., MPLS FRR using RSVP-TE) could deal with link and node fail=
ures regardless of whether the failed link or node appeared in the ERO of th=
e protected path.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-4977933800029=
12491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:=
1.5in'>3.<span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span>IMHO and FWIW, with SR&nbsp; the situation is quite different:<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768=
m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:2.0in'><span style=3D'font=
-family:"Courier New"'>o</span><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; </=
span>The shortest traffic paths not only coexist with engineered traffic pat=
hs: the latter are in many cases &#8220;tunneled&#8221; within the former.<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m9477221307013=
57768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:2.0in'><span style=3D=
'font-family:"Courier New"'>o</span><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbs=
p; </span>Path protection cannot be applied to shortest traffic paths so the=
y must rely on local protection<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m=
-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=
=3D'margin-left:2.0in'><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>o</span><span s=
tyle=3D'font-size:7.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Local protection in the case of f=
ailure of a node or link that appears in the ERO of an engineered SR path is=
 highly non-trivial at best, so path protection for the engineered LSPs look=
s like a preferred solution to me.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm61784135106766556=
20m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext st=
yle=3D'margin-left:1.25in'>I fully agree with you that the operators deploying=
 SR should provide feedback on this point based on actual operational experi=
ence. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m94772=
2130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.25in'>Mea=
nwhile I doubt that <i>a priori</i> declaring some use cases as absolutely p=
rohibited is the right thing to do.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655=
620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext s=
tyle=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m=
-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=
=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>My 2c,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497=
793380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'ma=
rgin-left:1.0in'>Sasha<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-49779338=
0002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-=
left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002=
912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left=
:1.0in'>Office: <a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-3926630=
2</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m947722=
130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>Cell:=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_bla=
nk">+972-549266302</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-49779338=
0002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-=
left:1.0in'>Email:&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.=
com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a><o:p></o:p></p><p c=
lass=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m58944496296=
66138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m589444962966613=
8440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm61=
78413510676655620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440=
msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>-----Original Message-----<br>From: S=
tefano Previdi (sprevidi) [<a href=3D"mailto:sprevidi@cisco.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">mailto:sprevidi@cisco.com</a>] <br>Sent: Monday, May 15, 2017 11:12 AM<br=
>To: Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;<br>Cc: <a href=3D=
"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draf=
t-ietf-spring-resliency-use-cases@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>; Shell Nakash &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:S=
hell.Nakash@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; M=
ichael Gorokhovsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Sidd Aanand &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com</a=
>&gt;; Ron Sdayoor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com</a>&gt;; Rotem Cohen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Rotem.C=
ohen@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com</a>&gt;<br>Subject=
: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf=
-spring-resiliency-use-cases<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-49=
7793380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'm=
argin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793=
380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margi=
n-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-4977933800=
02912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-le=
ft:1.0in'>&gt; On May 11, 2017, at 12:04 PM, Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D'col=
or:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</span><=
/a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793=
380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margi=
n-left:1.0in'>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-49779338000=
2912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-lef=
t:1.0in'>&gt; Hi all,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380=
002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-l=
eft:1.0in'>&gt; I have a belated (but hopefully late is still better than ne=
ver) comment on path protection as defined in Section 2 of the draft.<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768=
m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&gt;&nbsp; <o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m94772213070135776=
8m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&gt; This second=
 para in this section says:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497=
793380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'ma=
rgin-left:1.0in'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; A first protection strategy consists=
 in excluding any local repair<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-=
497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D=
'margin-left:1.0in'>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-49779=
3380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'marg=
in-left:1.0in'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; but instead use end-to-end path protec=
tion where each SPRING path <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-49=
7793380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'm=
argin-left:1.0in'>&gt; is<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-49779=
3380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'marg=
in-left:1.0in'>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-4977933800=
02912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-le=
ft:1.0in'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; protected by a second disjoint SPRING path.=
&nbsp; In this case local<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-49779=
3380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'marg=
in-left:1.0in'>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-4977933800=
02912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-le=
ft:1.0in'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; protection MUST NOT be used.<o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449=
629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m589444962966=
6138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&gt; First of all, I do not th=
ink that RFC 2119 language should be used in Informational documents, especi=
ally in the documents that describe use cases.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm61784=
13510676655620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440mso=
plaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm617841351=
0676655620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplai=
ntext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676=
655620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintex=
t style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>this document is also a requirements document fo=
r the resiliency use-case. RFC2119 terminology is perfectly usable and even =
more, it adds clarity on what the solution is expected to provide.<o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m58=
94449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m589444=
9629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629=
666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&gt; In addition, I specific=
ally disagree with the quoted statement above, because, from my POV:<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m=
5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&gt; =C2=B7&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Local repair and end-to-end path prote=
ction can be combined for the same path<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm617841351067=
6655620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplainte=
xt style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&gt; =C2=B7&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; Such a combination may be beneficial for the operators.<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5894=
449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m58944496=
29666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m589444962966=
6138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>are you talking by experience =
or is it just something that came into your mind ? I&#8217;d like to hear fr=
om operators using a combination of path and link protection.<o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449=
629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p c=
lass=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m58944496296=
66138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>This document has been deeply=
 reviewed also by operators and it has been always obvious the little sense =
link protection has in case of path protection.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178=
413510676655620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440ms=
oplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm61784135=
10676655620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msopla=
intext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm617841351067=
6655620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplainte=
xt style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&gt; One possible way to combine the two is des=
cribed below:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-49779338000291249=
1m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0i=
n'>&gt;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-4977933800029124=
91m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0=
in'>&gt; 1.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; A pair of SR paths is set up=
 between the given two nodes &#8211; later referred to as source and destina=
tion -&nbsp; in the network. These paths are &#8220;SR-disjoint&#8221; in th=
e sense that their &#8220;explicit routes&#8221;&nbsp; do not have any commo=
n elements, be they nodes or adjacencies, with exclusion of the final destin=
ation<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m947722=
130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&gt; =
2.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Local repair for these paths is enabl=
ed in the network. It is triggered by locally observed events (link failures=
 etc.), applied by the nodes adjacent to the failure and guarantees that, in=
 the case of a link or node failure that is not specified in the explicit ro=
ute, traffic along the affected path would be restored within &lt;X&gt; mill=
iseconds<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m947=
722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&g=
t; 3.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; End-to-end liveness monitoring is =
enabled for the two SR paths, and detects end-to-end failures of these paths=
 within &lt;Y&gt; milliseconds where Y &gt;&gt; X. In other words, end-to-en=
d liveness monitoring for these paths will ignore any failures that local re=
pair can fix, but will detect failures that cannot be locally repaired (e.g.=
, failures of nodes or links that have been specified in the explicit route =
of one of the paths<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-49779338000=
2912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-lef=
t:1.0in'>&gt; 4.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; End-to-end liveness mon=
itoring triggers end-to-end path protection to be applied by the source node=
 in the following way:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-49779338=
0002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-=
left:1.0in'>&gt; a.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If it recognizes bot=
h paths as alive, one of them will carry the customer traffic, while the oth=
er one will be idle. The rules for selecting the active path in this scenari=
o may vary<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m9=
47722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>=
&gt; b.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If end-to-end failure of one of these =
paths is detected while the other one remains alive, traffic will be carried=
 across the live path<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380=
002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-l=
eft:1.0in'>&gt; c.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If end-to-end failure=
 of both paths is detected (e.g., if the final destination node fails, or if=
 the network is partitioned), this is recognized as an unrecoverable failure=
.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m9477221307=
01357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&gt;&nbsp=
; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002912491m947722130=
701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&gt; Fro=
m my POV the combination of local repair and end-to-end protection for SR pa=
ths is one of a few possibilities to protect such paths against failures of =
nodes and/or links that have been specified in their explicit routes. (Anoth=
er option has been described in Node Protection for SR-TE Paths, but this dr=
aft has expired).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-4977933800029=
12491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left:=
1.0in'>&gt;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510676655620m-497793380002=
912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msoplaintext style=3D'margin-left=
:1.0in'>&gt; Do I miss something substantial?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm617841=
3510676655620m-497793380002912491m947722130701357768m5894449629666138440msop=
laintext style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dm6178413510=
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 style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>to my view you created a use-case that doesn&#821=
7;t bring much to the picture but I&#8217;d let operators to comment.<o:p></=
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From: "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: Stephane Litkowski <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Shell Nakash <Shell.Nakash@ecitele.com>, "Michael Gorokhovsky" <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org>, Sidd Aanand <Sidd.Aanand@ecitele.com>, Ron Sdayoor <Ron.Sdayoor@ecitele.com>, Rotem Cohen <Rotem.Cohen@ecitele.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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Subject: Re: [spring] A belated comment on end-to-end path protection in draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: "draft-bardhan-spring-poi-sr-oam@ietf.org" <draft-bardhan-spring-poi-sr-oam@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Requirements towards OAM in Segment Routing network
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Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 15:18:26 +0000
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From: Chao Fu <chao.fu@ericsson.com>
To: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: One question on E-flag of ABR/ASBR in OSPF SR extension
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Subject: [spring] One question on E-flag of ABR/ASBR in OSPF SR extension
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Hi,

Should we clarify how to set E-flag for ABR/ASBR in OSPF SR extension?

In https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ospf-segment-routing-extensions-14.tx=
t, the draft describes how to set NP-flag on ABR and ASBR (Section 5 [Page =
14]):

   The NP-Flag (No-PHP) MUST be set for Prefix-SIDs allocated to inter-
   area prefixes that are originated by the ABR based on intra-area or
   inter-area reachability between areas.  When the inter-area prefix is
   generated based on a prefix which is directly attached to the ABR,
   the NP-Flag SHOULD NOT be set.

   The NP-Flag (No-PHP) MUST be be set for Prefix-SIDs allocated to
   redistributed prefixes, unless the redistributed prefix is directly
   attached to the ASBR, in which case the NP-flag SHOULD NOT be set.

However, the E-flag (Explicit-Null Flag) is not described. Should we clarif=
y it also? I think E-flag SHOULD NOT be set if the prefix is not directly a=
ttached to the ABR or ASBR, and if necessary, it SHOULD be set if the prefi=
x is directly attached to the ABR or ASBR.

Regards,
Chao Fu

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Should we clarify how to set E-flag for ABR/ASBR in =
OSPF SR extension?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-osp=
f-segment-routing-extensions-14.txt">
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ospf-segment-routing-extensions-14.txt</=
a>, the draft describes how to set NP-flag on ABR and ASBR (Section 5 [Page=
 14]):<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; The NP-Flag (No-PHP) MUST be set for Pr=
efix-SIDs allocated to inter-<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; area prefixes that are originated by th=
e ABR based on intra-area or<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; inter-area reachability between areas.&=
nbsp; When the inter-area prefix is<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; generated based on a prefix which is di=
rectly attached to the ABR,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; the NP-Flag SHOULD NOT be set.<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; The NP-Flag (No-PHP) MUST be be set for=
 Prefix-SIDs allocated to<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; redistributed prefixes, unless the redi=
stributed prefix is directly<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; attached to the ASBR, in which case the=
 NP-flag SHOULD NOT be set.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">However, the E-flag (Explicit-Null Flag) is not desc=
ribed. Should we clarify it also? I think E-flag SHOULD NOT be set if the p=
refix is not directly attached to the ABR or ASBR, and if necessary, it SHO=
ULD be set if the prefix is directly
 attached to the ABR or ASBR.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Regards,<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Chao Fu<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
</div>
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From: Chao Fu <chao.fu@ericsson.com>
To: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: one typo in OSPF SR extension
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Subject: [spring] one typo in OSPF SR extension
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Hi,

There is one typo in Section 8.4.2 of  https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-o=
spf-segment-routing-extensions-14.txt,

Section 8.4.2 says:.
   When Segment Routing is used, each router on the broadcast, NBMSA, or
                                                                           =
                                        -----------  Should be NBMA
   hybrid network MAY advertise the Adj-SID for its adjacency to the DR
   using the Adj-SID Sub-TLV as described in Section 7.1.

Regards,
Chao Fu

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There is one <span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:black;background:white">
typo i</span>n Section 8.4.2 of &nbsp;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/dr=
aft-ietf-ospf-segment-routing-extensions-14.txt">https://www.ietf.org/id/dr=
aft-ietf-ospf-segment-routing-extensions-14.txt</a>,
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 8.4.2 says:.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;When Segment Routing is used, each=
 router on the broadcast, NBMSA, or<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -----------&nbsp; Should be NBMA<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; hybrid network MAY advertise the Adj-SI=
D for its adjacency to the DR<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; using the Adj-SID Sub-TLV as described =
in Section 7.1.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Regards,<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Chao Fu<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
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Subject: Re: [spring] One question on E-flag of ABR/ASBR in OSPF SR extension
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Hi Chao,

On 18/05/17 09:44 , Chao Fu wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Should we clarify how to set E-flag for ABR/ASBR in OSPF SR extension?
>
> In
> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ospf-segment-routing-extensions-14.txt,
> the draft describes how to set NP-flag on ABR and ASBR (Section 5 [Page
> 14]):
>
>     The NP-Flag (No-PHP) MUST be set for Prefix-SIDs allocated to inter-
>
>     area prefixes that are originated by the ABR based on intra-area or
>
>     inter-area reachability between areas.  When the inter-area prefix is
>
>     generated based on a prefix which is directly attached to the ABR,
>
>     the NP-Flag SHOULD NOT be set.
>
>     The NP-Flag (No-PHP) MUST be be set for Prefix-SIDs allocated to
>
>     redistributed prefixes, unless the redistributed prefix is directly
>
>     attached to the ASBR, in which case the NP-flag SHOULD NOT be set.
>
> However, the E-flag (Explicit-Null Flag) is not described. Should we
> clarify it also? I think E-flag SHOULD NOT be set if the prefix is not
> directly attached to the ABR or ASBR, and if necessary, it SHOULD be set
> if the prefix is directly attached to the ABR or ASBR.

The existing draft says:

"If the NP-flag is not set then the received E-flag is ignored."

Given that the draft clearly states when the NP-flag is set on ABR/ASBR 
above statement should be sufficient.

thanks,
Peter


>
> Regards,
>
> Chao Fu
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>


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Subject: Re: [spring] one typo in OSPF SR extension
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Hi Chao,

thanks, will fix it.

Peter


On 18/05/17 10:21 , Chao Fu wrote:
> Hi,
>
> There is one typo in Section 8.4.2 of
> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ospf-segment-routing-extensions-14.txt,
>
> Section 8.4.2 says:.
>
>     When Segment Routing is used, each router on the broadcast, NBMSA, or
>
>                                                                                                                     -----------  Should be NBMA
>
>     hybrid network MAY advertise the Adj-SID for its adjacency to the DR
>
>     using the Adj-SID Sub-TLV as described in Section 7.1.
>
> Regards,
>
> Chao Fu
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>


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From: Chao Fu <chao.fu@ericsson.com>
To: Peter Psenak <ppsenak@cisco.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] One question on E-flag of ABR/ASBR in OSPF SR extension
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Subject: Re: [spring] One question on E-flag of ABR/ASBR in OSPF SR extension
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Hi Peter,

It's right if the NP-flag is not set then the received E-flag is ignored. B=
ut, if the NP-flag is SET because the prefix is not directly attached to th=
e ABR, E-flag will not be ignored and the upstream neighbor will replace th=
e Prefix-SID with the Explicit-NULL label 0. I guess actually the packet sh=
ould be forwarded with the original prefix-SID, and no need to pop the 0 la=
bel and look up path again.=20

Regards,
Chao Fu


-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Psenak [mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 16:54
To: Chao Fu <chao.fu@ericsson.com>; spring@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] One question on E-flag of ABR/ASBR in OSPF SR extensi=
on

Hi Chao,

On 18/05/17 09:44 , Chao Fu wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Should we clarify how to set E-flag for ABR/ASBR in OSPF SR extension?
>
> In
> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ospf-segment-routing-extensions-14.
> txt, the draft describes how to set NP-flag on ABR and ASBR (Section 5=20
> [Page
> 14]):
>
>     The NP-Flag (No-PHP) MUST be set for Prefix-SIDs allocated to=20
> inter-
>
>     area prefixes that are originated by the ABR based on intra-area=20
> or
>
>     inter-area reachability between areas.  When the inter-area prefix=20
> is
>
>     generated based on a prefix which is directly attached to the ABR,
>
>     the NP-Flag SHOULD NOT be set.
>
>     The NP-Flag (No-PHP) MUST be be set for Prefix-SIDs allocated to
>
>     redistributed prefixes, unless the redistributed prefix is=20
> directly
>
>     attached to the ASBR, in which case the NP-flag SHOULD NOT be set.
>
> However, the E-flag (Explicit-Null Flag) is not described. Should we=20
> clarify it also? I think E-flag SHOULD NOT be set if the prefix is not=20
> directly attached to the ABR or ASBR, and if necessary, it SHOULD be=20
> set if the prefix is directly attached to the ABR or ASBR.

The existing draft says:

"If the NP-flag is not set then the received E-flag is ignored."

Given that the draft clearly states when the NP-flag is set on ABR/ASBR abo=
ve statement should be sufficient.

thanks,
Peter


>
> Regards,
>
> Chao Fu
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>


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Subject: Re: [spring] One question on E-flag of ABR/ASBR in OSPF SR extension
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Hi Chao,

On 18/05/17 11:15 , Chao Fu wrote:
> Hi Peter,
>
> It's right if the NP-flag is not set then the received E-flag is ignored. But, if the NP-flag is SET because the prefix is not directly attached to the ABR, E-flag will not be ignored

why would an E-bit be set in such case? It's up to the originator of the 
SID to decide when to set the E-bit. If the ABR does not set the E-bit 
no PHP would be done and advertised SID will be preserved.

Are you trying to add the text that would say that ABR MUST NOT set the 
E-bit either? I don't think it's necessary.

thanks,
Peter

> and the upstream neighbor will replace the Prefix-SID with the Explicit-NULL label 0. I guess actually the packet should be forwarded with the original prefix-SID, and no need to pop the 0 label and look up path again.
>
> Regards,
> Chao Fu
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Psenak [mailto:ppsenak@cisco.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 16:54
> To: Chao Fu <chao.fu@ericsson.com>; spring@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [spring] One question on E-flag of ABR/ASBR in OSPF SR extension
>
> Hi Chao,
>
> On 18/05/17 09:44 , Chao Fu wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Should we clarify how to set E-flag for ABR/ASBR in OSPF SR extension?
>>
>> In
>> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ospf-segment-routing-extensions-14.
>> txt, the draft describes how to set NP-flag on ABR and ASBR (Section 5
>> [Page
>> 14]):
>>
>>      The NP-Flag (No-PHP) MUST be set for Prefix-SIDs allocated to
>> inter-
>>
>>      area prefixes that are originated by the ABR based on intra-area
>> or
>>
>>      inter-area reachability between areas.  When the inter-area prefix
>> is
>>
>>      generated based on a prefix which is directly attached to the ABR,
>>
>>      the NP-Flag SHOULD NOT be set.
>>
>>      The NP-Flag (No-PHP) MUST be be set for Prefix-SIDs allocated to
>>
>>      redistributed prefixes, unless the redistributed prefix is
>> directly
>>
>>      attached to the ASBR, in which case the NP-flag SHOULD NOT be set.
>>
>> However, the E-flag (Explicit-Null Flag) is not described. Should we
>> clarify it also? I think E-flag SHOULD NOT be set if the prefix is not
>> directly attached to the ABR or ASBR, and if necessary, it SHOULD be
>> set if the prefix is directly attached to the ABR or ASBR.
>
> The existing draft says:
>
> "If the NP-flag is not set then the received E-flag is ignored."
>
> Given that the draft clearly states when the NP-flag is set on ABR/ASBR above statement should be sufficient.
>
> thanks,
> Peter
>
>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Chao Fu
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
>> spring@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>
>
> .
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/x8f_1aM4WsPlWzuqsPmL53wF_m4>
Subject: Re: [spring] Requirements towards OAM in Segment Routing network
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Speaking as co-chair.

I also believe that the WG should focus on producing meaningful material 
we can submit to IESG with confidence.

In fact we have discussed with the authors of 
draft-ietf-spring-sr-oam-requirement and out of the replies I have 
received, consensus was not to push this document to IESG.

-m

Le 17/05/2017  17:18, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) a crit :
> Hi,
>
> I do not believe SPRING should work
> on draft-ietf-spring-sr-oam-requirement. It makes more sense to focus on
> solutions than these weak and sparse requirements for very diverse set
> of potential protocols (LSP Ping, BFD, S-BFD, SRv6 OAMs, etc).
>
> Thanks,
>
>  Carlos.
>
>> On May 16, 2017, at 4:18 AM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com
>> <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Authors,
>> I'd like to bring your attention to the WG document OAM Requirements
>> for Segment Routing Network
>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-sr-oam-requirement-03>.
>> I think that many requirements listed in your document are common
>> requirements for OAM in Segment Routing network listed in the above
>> mentioned document.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Greg
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
>> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>


From nobody Tue May 23 00:12:47 2017
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Subject: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-11.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking of the IETF.

        Title           : Resiliency use cases in SPRING networks
        Authors         : Clarence Filsfils
                          Stefano Previdi
                          Bruno Decraene
                          Rob Shakir
	Filename        : draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-11.txt
	Pages           : 11
	Date            : 2017-05-23

Abstract:
   This document identifies and describes the requirements for a set of
   use cases related to network resiliency on Segment Routing (SPRING)
   networks.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-11
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-11

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-11


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From: "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>
To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-11.txt
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latest addressed comments.

Thanks.
s.


> On May 23, 2017, at 9:12 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct=
ories.
> This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking of t=
he IETF.
>=20
>        Title           : Resiliency use cases in SPRING networks
>        Authors         : Clarence Filsfils
>                          Stefano Previdi
>                          Bruno Decraene
>                          Rob Shakir
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-11.txt
> 	Pages           : 11
> 	Date            : 2017-05-23
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This document identifies and describes the requirements for a set of
>   use cases related to network resiliency on Segment Routing (SPRING)
>   networks.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases/
>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-11
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-ca=
ses-11
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-case=
s-11
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking of the IETF.

        Title           : Segment Routing MPLS Conflict Resolution
        Authors         : Les Ginsberg
                          Peter Psenak
                          Stefano Previdi
                          Martin Pilka
	Filename        : draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution-04.txt
	Pages           : 20
	Date            : 2017-05-24

Abstract:
   In support of Segment Routing (SR) for an MPLS data plane routing
   protocols advertise a variety of identifiers used to define the
   segments which direct forwarding of packets.  In cases where the
   information advertised by a given protocol instance is either
   internally inconsistent or conflicts with advertisements from another
   protocol instance a means of achieving consistent forwarding behavior
   in the network is required.  This document defines the policies used
   to resolve these occurrences.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution-04
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution-04

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution-04


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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution-04.txt
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Folks -

This version is a significant revision. Changes include:

1) "Ignore-overlap-only" is defined as the standardized policy. Alternate p=
olicies have been moved to a historical appendix.

2)Some extensions to the use of "preference" have been defined to prefer IG=
P/SRMS advertisements over BGP advertisements

We look forward to your comments.

   Les


> -----Original Message-----
> From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-
> drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 2:44 PM
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: spring@ietf.org
> Subject: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution-04.tx=
t
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct=
ories.
> This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking of t=
he
> IETF.
>=20
>         Title           : Segment Routing MPLS Conflict Resolution
>         Authors         : Les Ginsberg
>                           Peter Psenak
>                           Stefano Previdi
>                           Martin Pilka
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution-04.txt
> 	Pages           : 20
> 	Date            : 2017-05-24
>=20
> Abstract:
>    In support of Segment Routing (SR) for an MPLS data plane routing
>    protocols advertise a variety of identifiers used to define the
>    segments which direct forwarding of packets.  In cases where the
>    information advertised by a given protocol instance is either
>    internally inconsistent or conflicts with advertisements from another
>    protocol instance a means of achieving consistent forwarding behavior
>    in the network is required.  This document defines the policies used
>    to resolve these occurrences.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution/
>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution-04
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-conflict-resoluti=
on-04
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-spring-conflict-resolution=
-04
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
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> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking of the IETF.

        Title           : Interconnecting Millions Of Endpoints With Segment Routing
        Authors         : Clarence Filsfils
                          Dennis Cai
                          Stefano Previdi
                          Wim Henderickx
                          Dave Cooper
                          Tim Laberge
                          Steven Lin
                          Bruno Decraene
                          Luay Jalil
                          Jeff Tantsura
                          Rob Shakir
	Filename        : draft-filsfils-spring-large-scale-interconnect-06.txt
	Pages           : 11
	Date            : 2017-05-29

Abstract:
   This document describes an application of Segment Routing to scale
   the network to support hundreds of thousands of network nodes, and
   tens of millions of physical underlay endpoints.  This use-case can
   be applied to the interconnection of massive-scale DC's and/or large
   aggregation networks.  Forwarding tables of midpoint and leaf nodes
   only require a few tens of thousands of entries.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-filsfils-spring-large-scale-interconnect/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-large-scale-interconnect-06
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-filsfils-spring-large-scale-interconnect-06

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https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-filsfils-spring-large-scale-interconnect-06


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From: Stewart Bryant <stewart@g3ysx.org.uk>
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Subject: [spring] Rtgdir early review of draft-bashandy-rtgwg-segment-routing-uloop-00
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Reviewer: Stewart Bryant
Review result: Has Issues


I have been asked to perform an early review of this document on
behalf of the Routing Directorate.

Summary:

A document on this subject is something that the WG should publish,
but I think that there are number of issues that the WG need to
discuss and reach consensus on before deciding whether or not they
should adopt this draft as a starting point for that work.


Major Issues:

Before I get into the substance I am surprised that there are no IPR
disclosures. In an earlier and related work
(draft-francois-segment-routing-ti-lfa-00) there were three IPR
disclosures. 

The work has four basic components, the concept of resolving the
problem of P and Q being non-adjacent, the use of SR to solve the
non-adjacency, the use of the post convergence path following failure
and the applicability of these techniques to an SR network. The first
and second points seem of utility in non-SR networks, and so I am
surprised that they are not called out as such, in the first case
perhaps with consideration to strategically places RSVP tunnels, or
binding segments.

The issue of mapping repair path to the post convergence path to the
something that has always concerned me in this concept. It is true
that traffic that always passes through the PLR will experience the
properties the authors describe, but not all traffic will pass through
the PLR post convergence. The post failure path will be topology
dependent, and may take a different path from the point of ingress.

I am also concerned that the authors do not discuss the need for loop
free convergence, since although traffic going through the repair path
will be loop-free, traffic arriving at the PLR might not be. Consider
for example a topology fragment that looks like a clock with a router
at each minute. Traffic enters at 9 o'clock, leave at 3 o'clock and
goes via 12 o'clock and 12 o'clock fails.  The routers 9..12 will
re-converge at different times and this may give rise to the
micro-looping of traffic trying to get to the PLR. A summary of the
problem and a pointer to the companion draft may be sufficient.

Finally on the basic concept it would be good to state up from whether
the proposal is constrained solely to SR networks, or whether the
authors believe that the concept is of wider applicability. It see no
reason why it would be constrained to only work on SR networks.

There is no discussion of multiple failures, nor as far as I can see
of failures that are worse than anticipated. This is an important
point that needs to be established early. Some methods, (MRT)
intrinsically address multiple failures, others (NV) intrinsically
exclude them. Simple LFA needs a supervisor to quickly abandon all
hope when they occur.

In an SR network the paths used are not the shortest paths, they are a
collection of shortest paths, so there needs to be some discussion on
the interaction between the SR paths and repair paths to consider
whether it is unconditionally safe against forwarding loops. It would
presumably be so if the authors borrowed the concept of repair
addresses rather than normal forwarding addresses from not-via, but I
don't think they have done this.

There should also be some discussion on the original path constraints
that are applicable to the repair. Presumably the ingress node
constrained the traffic to go though failed node F for a reason. If
the repair is unconstrained that reason could be violated, but this is
not discussed in the text.


In the Security section you say:

   The behavior described in this document is internal functionality
   to a router that result in the ability to guarantee an upper bound
   on the time taken to restore traffic flow upon the failure of a
   directly connected link or node. As such no additional security
   risk is introduced by using the mechanisms proposed in this
   document.


SB> I am not sure that the above is correct. There may be a security
reason
SB> why a packet was steered along a path which breaks when you use
this
SB> technique.

In the conclusion you say:

   The
   mechanism is able to calculate the backup path irrespective of the
   topology as long as the topology is sufficiently redundant.


SB> That is certainly true in classic. I am not sure this is
universally 
SB> true under SR which includes the use of non-shortest path and 
SB> binding segments.



Minor issues:

   For each destination in the network, TI-LFA prepares a data-plane
   switch-over to be activated upon detection of the failure of a
   link used to reach the destination.  

SB> To make the scaling clearer to the reader, I think you need
SB> to make it clear that for each protected link, you determine
SB> the repair needed to reach every destination reachable over that
SB> link. You sort of say that, but it's a bit hidden.

   We provide the TI-LFA approach that achieves guaranteed coverage
   against link, node, and local SRLG failure, in any IGP network,
   relying on the flexibility of SR.

SB> Should that be any SINGLE link.... failure?

In the text (and the text that follows)

   To do so, S applies a "NEXT" operation on Adj(S-F) and then two
   consecutive "PUSH" operations: first it pushes a node segment for
F,
   and then it pushes a protection list allowing to reach F while
   bypassing S-F.

You need to reference the SR operations.

Also you are considering Adj segments, and presumably they were there
for a reason, but you do not discuss that.

In 5.3.1 and 5.3.2 you have a list of conditions, but do not make it
clear whether any or all must be true.

Nits

1. Introduction

   Segment Routing aims at supporting services with tight SLA
   guarantees [1]. This document provides a local repair mechanism
   relying on SR-capable of restoring end-to-end connectivity in the
   case of a sudden failure of a network component.

SB> Grammar needs a little work in the last sentence.

In Fig 1, I assume that the blobs are network fragments.

In the conclusion you say:
   This document proposes a mechanism that is able to pre-calculate a
   backup path for every primary path so as to be able to protect
   against the failure of a directly connected link or node. 
SB> you need to add SRLG

