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 On October 28, 2017 at 10:51:52 AM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) (
ginsberg@cisco.com ) wrote:

Les:

Hi!

Apologies for the long delay in responding. The transference of the pen
from Stefano resulted in a longer delay than it should have.

Thanks for taking this on!

As a new author: are you aware of any undeclared IPR for this document?

A new version has been published which addresses your comments. Specific
replies inline.

My replies (to what I think still needs work or answers to questions) are
below.

In general, I think that the definition of =E2=80=9CSR Domain=E2=80=9D stil=
l needs work.  I
would also strongly recommend that you include a Deployment/Operations
Section.

The update looks like a lot of changes: more than 400 lines (according to
rfcdiff) =E2=80=94 but I think they are mostly clarifying.  Instead of retu=
rning
the document to the WG, I am going to start an IETF Last Call for this
document =E2=80=94 it will be extended (4 weeks) to account for the upcomin=
g
meeting in Singapore, US Holidays and to give the WG an opportunity to
re-review.

Thanks!

Alvaro.


...

Major:



M1. The Introduction mentions several types of segments, and it says that
the LDP LSP, RSVP-TE LSP, and BGP LSP segments are =E2=80=9Cillustrated in
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls]=E2=80=9D.  But that is only true for=
 the
first two, for which examples are shown.  Where are these segment types
defined?  The definition, and not the examples, is the Major issue here.
This document being the main architecture document should include the
complete description.  BTW, the list is only about the =E2=80=9CMPLS
instantiation=E2=80=9D, are there similar types of segments for IP?



[Les:] The list has been modified =E2=80=93 but some definitions will still=
 be
found in [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls] where it makes sense to do
so. We prefer that so that we do not duplicate definitions.

Ok =E2=80=94 I would have preferred the definitions to show up here, but it=
=E2=80=99s ok,
as long at they are defined somewhere.

I went to look at the most recent version
of I-D.ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls (-11), but there=E2=80=99s no defin=
ition of
those segments.  <sigh> :-(    I=E2=80=99ll take a look at that document an=
d see if
they=E2=80=99re needed.



M2. From Section 2. (Terminology): =E2=80=9CUsing the same SRGB on all node=
s within
the SR domain ease operations and troubleshooting and is expected to be a
deployment guideline.=E2=80=9D  It is =E2=80=9Cexpected to be a deployment =
guideline=E2=80=9D
where/when??  Given that this document is the general architecture, I
figured that maybe draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls contained that
deployment recommendation, but all that document says is: =E2=80=9CAs descr=
ibed in
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-routing], using the same SRGB on all nodes within
the SR domain eases operations and troubleshooting and is expected to be a
deployment guideline.=E2=80=9D  So=E2=80=A6where are the Deployment/Operati=
onal
considerations related to the SRGB?  I note that neither document
(draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing or
draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls) include them.  I would expect some
information to be in this (general) document and other more specific
information (like the considerations about using the same SRGB) to be in
the more specific document (draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls, in this
case).



[Les:] Definition of the SRGB has been enhanced and the definition of an SR
Domain has been introduced and discussed. We hope this clarifies deployment
considerations as regards SRGB/SRLB.

SR Domain was already defined =E2=80=94 the difference seems to be the some=
what
nebulous new text:

   Segment Routing Domain (SR Domain)...If multiple protocol instances are
   deployed, the SR domain most commonly includes all of the protocol
   instances in a single SR domain.  However, some deployments may wish
   to sub-divide the network into multiple SR domains, each of which
   includes one or more protocol instances.  It is expected that all
   nodes in an SR Domain are managed by the same administrative entity.

=E2=80=A6which makes the definition depend on itself: "SR domain most commo=
nly
includes all of the protocol instances in a single SR domain=E2=80=9D (the =
domain
includes all the instances in the domain)=E2=80=A6

Note that one of the point above was the lack of Deployment/Operational
Considerations in this document =E2=80=94 the added text above opens the do=
or even
more for such considerations: when would someone decide to sub-divide the
network into multiple domains?  What might the considerations be?

As for the SRGB definition, you did take out the part about =E2=80=9Cusing =
the same
SRGB=E2=80=A6is expected to be a deployment guideline=E2=80=9D and changed =
it to it being
=E2=80=9Cstrongly recommended=E2=80=9D.  I still have the same question as =
before: what are
the Deployment/Operational considerations related to the SRGB?  You did
keep the text about how it =E2=80=9Ceases operations and troubleshooting=E2=
=80=9D, but
didn=E2=80=99t provide guidance related on when/why.

BTW, 3.1.2 says that "Where possible, it is recommended that a consistent
SRGB be configured on all nodes in an SR Domain.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 I=E2=80=
=99m assuming
=E2=80=9Cconsistent=E2=80=9D is the same as =E2=80=9Cthe same=E2=80=9D...

In short, the changes didn=E2=80=99t really help me.  I think that this doc=
ument
(which introduces a new technology) should have an Operational
Considerations section; take a look at rfc5706.


...

M3. From Section 2. (Terminology): =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6a global segment is re=
presented by a
globally-unique index.=E2=80=9D



M3.1.  I couldn=E2=80=99t find anywhere a discussion about the use of the i=
ndex.
When it is discussed in 3.1.2, it seems to be an understood concept: =E2=80=
=9CA
Prefix-SID is allocated in the form of an index in the SRGB=E2=80=A6=E2=80=
=9D  Even if
straightforward, I think the concept of the index should be explained
(maybe with an example) and not assumed.  I again went to look at
draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls, but that document just points back
to this one: =E2=80=9CThe notion of indexed global segment, defined in
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-routing]=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D



[Les:] Definition of SID has been made more explicit and how an index is
used to obtain the Segment in the SR MPLS case has been explicitly defined
in Section 3.1.2.

Thanks for that=E2=80=A6one question, I didn=E2=80=99t understand what "X i=
s the 0 based
index=E2=80=9D means in the algorithm.


...

M7. Section 3.4. (IGP-Adjacency Segment, Adj-SID) also tries to explain
functionality starting from the extensions.



[Les:] Here as well we have removed references to IGP specifics and
discussed the functionality on its own.



M7.1. =E2=80=9CThe encodings of the Adj-SID include the a set of flags amon=
g which
there is the B-flag.  When set, the Adj-SID refers to an adjacency that is
eligible for protection (e.g.: using IPFRR or MPLS-FRR).=E2=80=9D  If the A=
djacency
Segment is one that is locally significant to the node advertising it, what
is the purpose of signaling that it is eligible for protection?  Wouldn=E2=
=80=99t
that be a local decision as well?  Maybe an example of how the architecture
is expected to work would help.

I still have the same question: what is the purpose/value to signal whether
an Adj-SID is eligible for protection?  Isn=E2=80=99t that a local decision=
 anyway?


...

M8. Section 3.5. (Binding Segment).  A binding segment is not described
anywhere in this document =E2=80=93 please do so!  Section 3.5.1. (Mapping =
Server)
mentions a =E2=80=9CRemote-Binding SID S advertised by the mapping server=
=E2=80=9D, and
says that more =E2=80=9Cdetails are described in the SR/LDP interworking pr=
ocedures
([I-D.ietf-spring-segment-routing-ldp-interop]=E2=80=9D, but that draft doe=
sn=E2=80=99t
mention a Binding Segment.  Section 5. (IGP Mirroring Context Segment) says
that =E2=80=9Cthe binding segment [is] defined in SR IGP protocol extension=
s (
[I-D.ietf-isis-segment-routing-extensions],
[I-D.ietf-ospf-segment-routing-extensions] and
[I-D.ietf-ospf-ospfv3-segment-routing-extensions])=E2=80=9D; however, those
documents don=E2=80=99t mention a Binding Segment, they just (except for th=
e OSPFv2
draft) define TLVs.  Note that I-D.ietf-ospf-segment-routing-extensions
points back to this document when referring to the definition of a Binding
SID, completing a circular reference.



[Les:] Section on Binding Segment has been rewritten and the  Mirror
Context discussion is a sub-section of that section.

It seems to me that the description is not as clear as it could be.  The
initial sentence sounds general enough so that any/all SR Policy is
bound/related to a BSID.  Suggestion: start the description with the
motivation.


...

M10. Section 3.6. (Inter-Area Considerations)



M10.1. This section shows an example of the behavior: maintain the SID
across area boundaries.  But it doesn=E2=80=99t actually say how the archit=
ecture
is expected to work.  IOW, in the example the SID is maintained, but should
that always happen (MUST, SHOULD)? Or is it just an example (MAY)?



[Les:] With the introduction of the =E2=80=9CSR Domain=E2=80=9D definition =
we believe this
point is now clarified.

Please see my comments above about the SR Domain definition.  I need you to
walk me through how that definition (which just says that there may be one
or more domains) clarifies the inter-area behavior in the example.


...

Minor:

 ...

P1.4. Speaking of use cases, I-D.ietf-spring-oam-usecase doesn=E2=80=99t ac=
tually
include use cases that will affect the architecture.  It includes use case
of how to use monitoring system defined in it.  Same comment for the
mention in Section 9.

The document is still referenced in Section 9 as a use case document.


...

Nits:

...

N9.
s/([I-D.ietf-spring-segment-routing-ldp-interop]/[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-r=
outing-ldp-interop]




[Les:] I do not see what you are correcting here. ???

There=E2=80=99s an extra =E2=80=9C(=E2=80=9C.


...

N11. It would be nice if the examples used IPv6 instead of IPv4.

[Les:] Hmmm=E2=80=A6the Inter-area example does use IPv6, but the anycast e=
xample
uses IPv4. Is this now forbidden?

No, just trying to play nice with others =E2=80=94 just a nit.

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    <body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
        <div>
            <div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0=
px">
                <div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px"><span sty=
le=3D"font-family:Helvetica">On October 28, 2017 at 10:51:52 AM, Les Ginsbe=
rg (ginsberg) (</span><a href=3D"mailto:ginsberg@cisco.com" style=3D"font-f=
amily:Helvetica">ginsberg@cisco.com</a><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica=
">
                         ) wrote:</span></div></div><div>
                <p class=3D"airmail_on">
                    <font face=3D"Helvetica">Les:</font>
                </p>
                <p class=3D"airmail_on">
                    <font face=3D"Helvetica">Hi!</font>
                </p>
                <div>
                    <div>
                        <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=
=3D"font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-in=
dent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
                            <div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#=
0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
                                <div>
                                    <div class=3D"WordSection1">
                                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                            <span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,=
125)">
                                                <font face=3D"Helvetica">Ap=
ologies for the long delay in responding. The transference of the pen from =
Stefano resulted in a longer delay than it should have.</font>
                                            </span>
                                        </p>
                                    </div>
                                </div>
                            </div>
                        </blockquote>
                    </div>
                    <p>
                        <font face=3D"Helvetica">Thanks for taking this on!=
 =C2=A0</font>
                    </p>
                    <p>
                        <font face=3D"Helvetica">As a new author: are you a=
ware of any undeclared IPR for this document?</font>
                    </p>
                    <div>
                        <div>
                            <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" st=
yle=3D"font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text=
-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
                                <div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=
=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
                                    <div class=3D"WordSection1">
                                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                            <span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,=
125)">
                                                <font face=3D"Helvetica">A =
new version has been published which addresses your comments. Specific repl=
ies inline.</font>
                                            </span>
                                        </p>
                                    </div>
                                </div>
                            </blockquote>
                        </div>
                        <p>
                            <font face=3D"Helvetica">My replies (to what I =
think still needs work or answers to questions) are below.</font>
                        </p>
                        <p>
                            <font face=3D"Helvetica">In general, I think th=
at the definition of =E2=80=9CSR Domain=E2=80=9D still needs work.=C2=A0 I =
would also strongly recommend that you include a Deployment/Operations Sect=
ion.</font>
                        </p>
                        <p>
                            <font face=3D"Helvetica">The update looks like =
a lot of changes: more than 400 lines (according to rfcdiff) =E2=80=94 but =
I think they are mostly clarifying.=C2=A0 Instead of returning the document=
 to the WG, I am going to start an IETF Last Call for this document=C2=A0=
=E2=80=94 it will be extended (4 weeks) to account for the upcoming meeting=
 in Singapore, US Holidays and to give the WG an opportunity to re-review.<=
/font></p>
                        <p>
                            <font face=3D"Helvetica">Thanks!</font>
                        </p>
                        <p>
                            <font face=3D"Helvetica">Alvaro.</font>
                        </p>
                        <p>
                            <font face=3D"Helvetica">
                                <br>
                            </font>
                        </p>
                        <p>
                            <font face=3D"Helvetica">...</font>
                        </p>
                        <div>
                            <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" st=
yle=3D"font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text=
-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
                                <div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=
=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
                                    <div class=3D"WordSection1">
                                        <div style=3D"border-style:none non=
e none solid;border-left-width:1.5pt;border-left-color:blue;padding:0in 0in=
 0in 4pt">
                                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                <font face=3D"Helvetica">Ma=
jor:</font>
                                            </p>
                                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                <font face=3D"Helvetica">=
=C2=A0</font>
                                            </p>
                                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                <font face=3D"Helvetica">M1=
. The Introduction mentions several types of segments, and it says that the=
 LDP LSP, RSVP-TE LSP, and BGP LSP segments are =E2=80=9Cillustrated in [I-=
D.ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls]=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 But that is only true f=
or the first two, for which examples are shown.=C2=A0 Where are these segme=
nt types defined?=C2=A0 The definition, and not the examples, is the Major =
issue here.=C2=A0 This document being the main architecture document should=
 include the complete description.=C2=A0 BTW, the list is only about the =
=E2=80=9CMPLS instantiation=E2=80=9D, are there similar types of segments f=
or IP?</font>
                                            </p>
                                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                <span style=3D"color:rgb(31=
,73,125)">
                                                    <font face=3D"Helvetica=
">=C2=A0</font>
                                                </span>
                                            </p>
                                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                <span style=3D"color:rgb(31=
,73,125)">
                                                    <font face=3D"Helvetica=
">[Les:] The list has been modified =E2=80=93 but some definitions will sti=
ll be found in [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls] where it makes sense =
to do so. We prefer that so that we do not duplicate definitions.</font>
                                                </span>
                                            </p>
                                        </div>
                                    </div>
                                </div>
                            </blockquote>
                        </div>
                    </div>
                </div>
                <p>
                    <font face=3D"Helvetica">Ok =E2=80=94 I would have pref=
erred the definitions to show up here, but it=E2=80=99s ok, as long at they=
 are defined somewhere.</font>
                </p>
                <p>
                    <font face=3D"Helvetica">I went to look at the most rec=
ent version of=C2=A0I-D.ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls (-11), but there=
=E2=80=99s no definition of those segments. =C2=A0&lt;sigh&gt; :-( =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0I=E2=80=99ll take a look at that document and see if they=E2=80=99re =
needed.</font>
                </p>
                <p>
                    <font face=3D"Helvetica">
                        <br>
                    </font>
                </p>
                <p>
                    <font face=3D"Helvetica">
                        <br>
                    </font>
                </p>
                <div>
                    <div>
                        <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=
=3D"font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-in=
dent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
                            <div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#=
0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
                                <div>
                                    <div class=3D"WordSection1">
                                        <div style=3D"border-style:none non=
e none solid;border-left-width:1.5pt;border-left-color:blue;padding:0in 0in=
 0in 4pt">
                                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                <font face=3D"Helvetica">M2=
. From Section 2. (Terminology): =E2=80=9CUsing the same SRGB on all nodes =
within the SR domain ease operations and troubleshooting and is expected to=
 be a deployment guideline.=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 It is =E2=80=9Cexpected to be a =
deployment guideline=E2=80=9D where/when??=C2=A0 Given that this document i=
s the general architecture, I figured that maybe draft-ietf-spring-segment-=
routing-mpls contained that deployment recommendation, but all that documen=
t says is: =E2=80=9CAs described in [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-routing], usin=
g the same SRGB on all nodes within the SR domain eases operations and trou=
bleshooting and is expected to be a deployment guideline.=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 So=
=E2=80=A6where are the Deployment/Operational considerations related to the=
 SRGB?=C2=A0 I note that neither document (draft-ietf-spring-segment-routin=
g or draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls) include them.=C2=A0 I would ex=
pect some information to be in this (general) document and other more speci=
fic information (like the considerations about using the same SRGB) to be i=
n the more specific document (draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls, in th=
is case).</font>
                                            </p>
                                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                <span>
                                                    <span style=3D"color:rg=
b(31,73,125)">
                                                        <font face=3D"Helve=
tica">=C2=A0</font>
                                                    </span>
                                                </span>
                                            </p>
                                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                <span style=3D"color:rgb(31=
,73,125)">
                                                    <font face=3D"Helvetica=
">[Les:] Definition of the SRGB has been enhanced and the definition of an =
SR Domain has been introduced and discussed. We hope this clarifies deploym=
ent considerations as regards SRGB/SRLB.</font>
                                                </span>
                                            </p>
                                        </div>
                                    </div>
                                </div>
                            </div>
                        </blockquote>
                    </div>
                    <p>
                        <font face=3D"Helvetica">SR Domain was already defi=
ned =E2=80=94 the difference seems to be the somewhat nebulous new text:</f=
ont>
                    </p>
                    <pre class=3D"newpage">   <font face=3D"Courier">Segmen=
t Routing Domain (SR Domain)...If multiple protocol instances are
   deployed, the SR domain most commonly includes all of the protocol
   instances in a single SR domain.  However, some deployments may wish
   to sub-divide the network into multiple SR domains, each of which
   includes one or more protocol instances.  It is expected that all
   nodes in an SR Domain are managed by the same administrative entity. </f=
ont></pre><font face=3D"Courier"> </font>
                        =20
                        <font face=3D"Helvetica">
</font>
                        =20
                    =20

                    <p>
                        <font face=3D"Helvetica">=E2=80=A6which makes the d=
efinition depend on itself: &quot;SR domain most commonly includes all of t=
he protocol instances in a single SR domain=E2=80=9D (the domain includes a=
ll the instances in the domain)=E2=80=A6</font>
                    </p>
                    <p>
                        <font face=3D"Helvetica">Note that one of the point=
 above was the lack of Deployment/Operational Considerations in this docume=
nt =E2=80=94 the added text above opens the door even more for such conside=
rations: when would someone decide to sub-divide the network into multiple =
domains?=C2=A0 What might the considerations be?</font>
                    </p>
                    <p>
                        <font face=3D"Helvetica">As for the SRGB definition=
, you did take out the part about =E2=80=9Cusing the same SRGB=E2=80=A6is e=
xpected to be a deployment guideline=E2=80=9D and changed it to it being =
=E2=80=9Cstrongly recommended=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 I still have the same questio=
n as before: what are the Deployment/Operational considerations related to =
the SRGB?=C2=A0 You did keep the text about how it =E2=80=9Ceases operation=
s and troubleshooting=E2=80=9D, but didn=E2=80=99t provide guidance related=
 on when/why. =C2=A0</font>
                    </p>
                    <p>
                        <font face=3D"Helvetica">BTW, 3.1.2 says that &quot=
;Where possible, it is recommended that a consistent SRGB be configured on =
all nodes in an SR Domain.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 I=E2=80=99m assuming =E2=80=
=9Cconsistent=E2=80=9D is the same as =E2=80=9Cthe same=E2=80=9D...</font>
                    </p>
                    <p>
                        <font face=3D"Helvetica">In short, the changes didn=
=E2=80=99t really help me.=C2=A0 I think that this document (which introduc=
es a new technology) should have an Operational Considerations section; tak=
e a look at rfc5706.</font>
                    </p>
                    <p>
                        <font face=3D"Helvetica">
                            <br>
                        </font>
                    </p>
                    <p>
                        <font face=3D"Helvetica">...</font>
                    </p>
                    <div>
                        <div>
                            <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" st=
yle=3D"font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text=
-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
                                <div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=
=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
                                    <div>
                                        <div class=3D"WordSection1">
                                            <div style=3D"border-style:none=
 none none solid;border-left-width:1.5pt;border-left-color:blue;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 4pt">
                                                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                    <font face=3D"Helvetica=
">M3. From Section 2. (Terminology): =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6a global segment is =
represented by a globally-unique index.=E2=80=9D=C2=A0</font>
                                                </p>
                                                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                    <font face=3D"Helvetica=
">=C2=A0</font>
                                                </p>
                                                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                    <font face=3D"Helvetica=
">M3.1.=C2=A0 I couldn=E2=80=99t find anywhere a discussion about the use o=
f the index.=C2=A0 When it is discussed in 3.1.2, it seems to be an underst=
ood concept: =E2=80=9CA Prefix-SID is allocated in the form of an index in =
the SRGB=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 Even if straightforward, I think the conce=
pt of the index should be explained (maybe with an example) and not assumed=
.=C2=A0 I again went to look at draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls, but=
 that document just points back to this one: =E2=80=9CThe notion of indexed=
 global segment, defined in [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-routing]=E2=80=A6=E2=
=80=9D</font>
                                                </p>
                                                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                    <span style=3D"color:rg=
b(31,73,125)">
                                                        <font face=3D"Helve=
tica">=C2=A0</font>
                                                    </span>
                                                </p>
                                                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                    <span style=3D"color:rg=
b(31,73,125)">
                                                        <font face=3D"Helve=
tica">[Les:] Definition of SID has been made more explicit and how an index=
 is used to obtain the Segment in the SR MPLS case has been explicitly defi=
ned in Section 3.1.2.</font>
                                                    </span>
                                                </p>
                                            </div>
                                        </div>
                                    </div>
                                </div>
                            </blockquote>
                        </div>
                        <p>
                            <font face=3D"Helvetica">Thanks for that=E2=80=
=A6one question, I didn=E2=80=99t understand what &quot;X is the 0 based in=
dex=E2=80=9D means in the algorithm.</font>
                        </p>
                        <p>
                            <font face=3D"Helvetica">
                                <br>
                            </font>
                        </p>
                        <p>
                            <font face=3D"Helvetica">...</font>
                        </p>
                        <div>
                            <div>
                                <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq=
" style=3D"font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;=
text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
                                    <div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" l=
ink=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
                                        <div>
                                            <div class=3D"WordSection1">
                                                <div style=3D"border-style:=
none none none solid;border-left-width:1.5pt;border-left-color:blue;padding=
:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
                                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                        <font face=3D"Helve=
tica">M7. Section 3.4. (IGP-Adjacency Segment, Adj-SID) also tries to expla=
in functionality starting from the extensions.</font>
                                                    </p>
                                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                        <span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(31,73,125)">
                                                            <font face=3D"H=
elvetica">=C2=A0</font>
                                                        </span>
                                                    </p>
                                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                        <span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(31,73,125)">
                                                            <font face=3D"H=
elvetica">[Les:] Here as well we have removed references to IGP specifics a=
nd discussed the functionality on its own.</font>
                                                        </span>
                                                    </p>
                                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                        <span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(31,73,125)">
                                                            <font face=3D"H=
elvetica">=C2=A0</font>
                                                        </span>
                                                    </p>
                                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                        <font face=3D"Helve=
tica">M7.1. =E2=80=9CThe encodings of the Adj-SID include the a set of flag=
s among which there is the B-flag.=C2=A0 When set, the Adj-SID refers to an=
 adjacency that is eligible for protection (e.g.: using IPFRR or MPLS-FRR).=
=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 If the Adjacency Segment is one that is locally significant=
 to the node advertising it, what is the purpose of signaling that it is el=
igible for protection?=C2=A0 Wouldn=E2=80=99t that be a local decision as w=
ell?=C2=A0 Maybe an example of how the architecture is expected to work wou=
ld help.</font>
                                                    </p>
                                                </div>
                                            </div>
                                        </div>
                                    </div>
                                </blockquote>
                            </div>
                            <p>
                                <font face=3D"Helvetica">I still have the s=
ame question: what is the purpose/value to signal whether an Adj-SID is eli=
gible for protection?=C2=A0 Isn=E2=80=99t that a local decision anyway?</fo=
nt>
                            </p>
                            <p>
                                <font face=3D"Helvetica">
                                    <br>
                                </font>
                            </p>
                            <p>
                                <font face=3D"Helvetica">...</font>
                            </p>
                            <div>
                                <div>
                                    <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clea=
n_bq" style=3D"font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:st=
art;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
">
                                        <div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-U=
S" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
                                            <div>
                                                <div class=3D"WordSection1"=
>
                                                    <div style=3D"border-st=
yle:none none none solid;border-left-width:1.5pt;border-left-color:blue;pad=
ding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
                                                        <p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al">
                                                            <span>
                                                                <font face=
=3D"Helvetica">M8. Section 3.5. (Binding Segment).=C2=A0 A binding segment =
is not described anywhere in this document =E2=80=93 please do so!=C2=A0 Se=
ction 3.5.1. (Mapping Server) mentions a =E2=80=9CRemote-Binding SID S adve=
rtised by the mapping server=E2=80=9D, and says that more =E2=80=9Cdetails =
are described in the SR/LDP interworking procedures ([I-D.ietf-spring-segme=
nt-routing-ldp-interop]=E2=80=9D, but that draft doesn=E2=80=99t mention a =
Binding Segment.=C2=A0 Section 5. (IGP Mirroring Context Segment) says that=
 =E2=80=9Cthe binding segment [is] defined in SR IGP protocol extensions ( =
[I-D.ietf-isis-segment-routing-extensions], [I-D.ietf-ospf-segment-routing-=
extensions] and [I-D.ietf-ospf-ospfv3-segment-routing-extensions])=E2=80=9D=
; however, those documents don=E2=80=99t mention a Binding Segment, they ju=
st (except for the OSPFv2 draft) define TLVs.=C2=A0 Note that I-D.ietf-ospf=
-segment-routing-extensions points back to this document when referring to =
the definition of a Binding SID, completing a circular reference.</font>
                                                            </span>
                                                        </p>
                                                        <p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al">
                                                            <span>
                                                                <span style=
=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">
                                                                    <font f=
ace=3D"Helvetica">=C2=A0</font>
                                                                </span>
                                                            </span>
                                                        </p>
                                                        <p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al">
                                                            <span style=3D"=
color:rgb(31,73,125)">
                                                                <font face=
=3D"Helvetica">[Les:] Section on Binding Segment has been rewritten and the=
=C2=A0 Mirror Context discussion is a sub-section of that section.</font>
                                                            </span>
                                                        </p>
                                                    </div>
                                                </div>
                                            </div>
                                        </div>
                                    </blockquote>
                                </div>
                                <p>
                                    <font face=3D"Helvetica">It seems to me=
 that the description is not as clear as it could be.=C2=A0 The initial sen=
tence sounds general enough so that any/all SR Policy is bound/related to a=
 BSID.=C2=A0 Suggestion: start the description with the motivation.</font>
                                </p>
                                <p>
                                    <font face=3D"Helvetica">
                                        <br>
                                    </font>
                                </p>
                                <p>
                                    <font face=3D"Helvetica">...</font>
                                </p>
                                <div>
                                    <div>
                                        <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"=
clean_bq" style=3D"font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-alig=
n:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing=
:0px">
                                            <div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"=
EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
                                                <div>
                                                    <div class=3D"WordSecti=
on1">
                                                        <div style=3D"borde=
r-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1.5pt;border-left-color:blue=
;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
                                                            <p class=3D"Mso=
Normal">
                                                                <font face=
=3D"Helvetica">M10. Section 3.6. (Inter-Area Considerations)<span class=3D"=
Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>
                                                                </font>
                                                            </p>
                                                            <p class=3D"Mso=
Normal">
                                                                <font face=
=3D"Helvetica">=C2=A0</font>
                                                            </p>
                                                            <p class=3D"Mso=
Normal">
                                                                <font face=
=3D"Helvetica">M10.1. This section shows an example of the behavior: mainta=
in the SID across area boundaries.=C2=A0 But it doesn=E2=80=99t actually sa=
y how the architecture is expected to work.=C2=A0 IOW, in the example the S=
ID is maintained, but should that always happen (MUST, SHOULD)? Or is it ju=
st an example (MAY)?</font>
                                                            </p>
                                                            <p class=3D"Mso=
Normal">
                                                                <span style=
=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">
                                                                    <font f=
ace=3D"Helvetica">=C2=A0</font>
                                                                </span>
                                                            </p>
                                                            <p class=3D"Mso=
Normal">
                                                                <span style=
=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">
                                                                    <font f=
ace=3D"Helvetica">[Les:] With the introduction of the =E2=80=9CSR Domain=E2=
=80=9D definition we believe this point is now clarified.</font>
                                                                </span>
                                                            </p>
                                                        </div>
                                                    </div>
                                                </div>
                                            </div>
                                        </blockquote>
                                    </div>
                                    <p>
                                        <font face=3D"Helvetica">Please see=
 my comments above about the SR Domain definition.=C2=A0 I need you to walk=
 me through how that definition (which just says that there may be one or m=
ore domains) clarifies the inter-area behavior in the example.</font>
                                    </p>
                                    <p>
                                        <font face=3D"Helvetica">
                                            <br>
                                        </font>
                                    </p>
                                    <p>
                                        <font face=3D"Helvetica">...</font>
                                    </p>
                                    <div>
                                        <div>
                                            <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=
=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-=
align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spa=
cing:0px">
                                                <div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=
=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
                                                    <div class=3D"WordSecti=
on1">
                                                        <div style=3D"borde=
r-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1.5pt;border-left-color:blue=
;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
                                                            <p class=3D"Mso=
Normal">
                                                                <font face=
=3D"Helvetica">Minor:</font>
                                                            </p>
                                                            <p class=3D"Mso=
Normal">
                                                                <font face=
=3D"Helvetica">=C2=A0...</font>
                                                            </p>
                                                            <p class=3D"Mso=
Normal">
                                                                <font face=
=3D"Helvetica">P1.4. Speaking of use cases, I-D.ietf-spring-oam-usecase doe=
sn=E2=80=99t actually include use cases that will affect the architecture.=
=C2=A0 It includes use case of how to use monitoring system defined in it.=
=C2=A0 Same comment for the mention in Section 9.</font>
                                                            </p>
                                                        </div>
                                                    </div>
                                                </div>
                                            </blockquote>
                                        </div>
                                        <p>
                                            <font face=3D"Helvetica">The do=
cument is still referenced in Section 9 as a use case document.</font>
                                        </p>
                                        <p>
                                            <font face=3D"Helvetica">
                                                <br>
                                            </font>
                                        </p>
                                        <p>
                                            <font face=3D"Helvetica">...</f=
ont>
                                        </p>
                                        <div>
                                            <div>
                                                <blockquote type=3D"cite" c=
lass=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;t=
ext-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word=
-spacing:0px">
                                                    <div bgcolor=3D"white" =
lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
                                                        <div class=3D"WordS=
ection1">
                                                            <div style=3D"b=
order-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1.5pt;border-left-color:=
blue;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
                                                                <p class=3D=
"MsoNormal">
                                                                    <font f=
ace=3D"Helvetica">Nits:</font>
                                                                </p>
                                                                <p class=3D=
"MsoNormal">
                                                                    <font f=
ace=3D"Helvetica">...=C2=A0</font>
                                                                </p>
                                                                <p class=3D=
"MsoNormal">
                                                                    <font f=
ace=3D"Helvetica">N9. s/([I-D.ietf-spring-segment-routing-ldp-interop]/[I-D=
.ietf-spring-segment-routing-ldp-interop]</font>
                                                                </p>
                                                            </div>
                                                        </div>
                                                    </div>
                                                </blockquote>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                                <div>
                                                    <blockquote type=3D"cit=
e" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px">
                                                        <div bgcolor=3D"whi=
te" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
                                                            <div>
                                                                <div class=
=3D"WordSection1">
                                                                    <div st=
yle=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1.5pt;border-lef=
t-color:blue;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
                                                                        <p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                                           =
 <span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">
                                                                           =
     <font face=3D"Helvetica">
                                                                           =
         <br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
                                                                           =
         =C2=A0</font>
                                                                           =
 </span>
                                                                        </p=
>
                                                                        <p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                                           =
 <span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">
                                                                           =
     <font face=3D"Helvetica">[Les:] I do not see what you are correcting h=
ere. ???</font>
                                                                           =
 </span>
                                                                        </p=
>
                                                                    </div>
                                                                </div>
                                                            </div>
                                                        </div>
                                                    </blockquote>
                                                </div>
                                                <p>
                                                    <font face=3D"Helvetica=
">There=E2=80=99s an extra =E2=80=9C(=E2=80=9C.</font>
                                                </p>
                                                <p>
                                                    <font face=3D"Helvetica=
">
                                                        <br>
                                                    </font>
                                                </p>
                                                <p>
                                                    <font face=3D"Helvetica=
">...</font>
                                                </p>
                                                <div>
                                                    <div>
                                                        <blockquote type=3D=
"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:=
normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:nor=
mal;word-spacing:0px">
                                                            <div bgcolor=3D=
"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
                                                                <div>
                                                                    <div cl=
ass=3D"WordSection1">
                                                                        <di=
v style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1.5pt;border=
-left-color:blue;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
                                                                           =
 <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                                           =
     <font face=3D"Helvetica">N11. It would be nice if the examples used IP=
v6 instead of IPv4.</font>
                                                                           =
 </p>
                                                                           =
 <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                                           =
     <span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">
                                                                           =
         <font face=3D"Helvetica">[Les:] Hmmm=E2=80=A6the Inter-area exampl=
e does use IPv6, but the anycast example uses IPv4. Is this now forbidden?<=
/font>
                                                                           =
     </span>
                                                                           =
 </p>
                                                                        </d=
iv>
                                                                    </div>
                                                                </div>
                                                            </div>
                                                        </blockquote>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <p>
                                                        <font face=3D"Helve=
tica">No, just trying to play nice with others =E2=80=94 just a nit.</font>
                                                    </p>
                                                </div>
                                            </div>
                                        </div>
                                    </div>
                                </div>
                            </div>
                        </div>
                    </div>
                </div>
            </div>
        </div>
    =20
</body></html>

--001a11409322333712055cf13fdc--


From nobody Wed Nov  1 14:17:07 2017
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Subject: [spring] Last Call: <draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13.txt> (Segment Routing Architecture) to Proposed Standard
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The IESG has received a request from the Source Packet Routing in Networking
WG (spring) to consider the following document: - 'Segment Routing
Architecture'
  <draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13.txt> as Proposed Standard

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final
comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2017-11-30. Exceptionally, comments may be
sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of
the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

Abstract


   Segment Routing (SR) leverages the source routing paradigm.  A node
   steers a packet through an ordered list of instructions, called
   segments.  A segment can represent any instruction, topological or
   service-based.  A segment can have a semantic local to an SR node or
   global within an SR domain.  SR allows to enforce a flow through any
   topological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress
   nodes to the SR domain.

   Segment Routing can be directly applied to the MPLS architecture with
   no change on the forwarding plane.  A segment is encoded as an MPLS
   label.  An ordered list of segments is encoded as a stack of labels.
   The segment to process is on the top of the stack.  Upon completion
   of a segment, the related label is popped from the stack.

   Segment Routing can be applied to the IPv6 architecture, with a new
   type of routing header.  A segment is encoded as an IPv6 address.  An
   ordered list of segments is encoded as an ordered list of IPv6
   addresses in the routing header.  The active segment is indicated by
   the Destination Address of the packet.  The next active segment is
   indicated by a pointer in the new routing header.





The file can be obtained via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing/

IESG discussion can be tracked via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing/ballot/

The following IPR Declarations may be related to this I-D:

   https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2457/
   https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2275/
   https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2471/






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> On Nov 1, 2017, at 8:55 PM, Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> On October 28, 2017 at 10:51:52 AM, Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) =
(ginsberg@cisco.com ) wrote:
> Les:
>=20
> Hi!
>=20
>> Apologies for the long delay in responding. The transference of the =
pen from Stefano resulted in a longer delay than it should have.
>>=20
> Thanks for taking this on! =20
>=20
> As a new author: are you aware of any undeclared IPR for this =
document?
>=20
>> A new version has been published which addresses your comments. =
Specific replies inline.
>>=20
> My replies (to what I think still needs work or answers to questions) =
are below.
>=20
> In general, I think that the definition of =E2=80=9CSR Domain=E2=80=9D =
still needs work.  I would also strongly recommend that you include a =
Deployment/Operations Section.


what exactly would you expect to find in such section ? We have the =
Manageability section which illustrates how SR can be managed. An =
operation/deployment section will have to be exhaustive and illustrative =
on the different use-cases that SR addresses and hence can become pretty =
large.=20

To my view, the draft focuses on architecture, not on deployment or =
operation. These are mostly described in the different use-cases drafts.


> The update looks like a lot of changes: more than 400 lines (according =
to rfcdiff) =E2=80=94 but I think they are mostly clarifying. =20


indeed, not a single change in the architecture has been introduced or =
changed.


> Instead of returning the document to the WG, I am going to start an =
IETF Last Call for this document =E2=80=94 it will be extended (4 weeks) =
to account for the upcoming meeting in Singapore, US Holidays and to =
give the WG an opportunity to re-review.


many thanks!

s.


>=20
> Thanks!
>=20
> Alvaro.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ...
>=20
>> Major:
>>=20
>> =20
>> M1. The Introduction mentions several types of segments, and it says =
that the LDP LSP, RSVP-TE LSP, and BGP LSP segments are =E2=80=9Cillustrat=
ed in [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls]=E2=80=9D.  But that is only =
true for the first two, for which examples are shown.  Where are these =
segment types defined?  The definition, and not the examples, is the =
Major issue here.  This document being the main architecture document =
should include the complete description.  BTW, the list is only about =
the =E2=80=9CMPLS instantiation=E2=80=9D, are there similar types of =
segments for IP?
>>=20
>> =20
>> [Les:] The list has been modified =E2=80=93 but some definitions will =
still be found in [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls] where it makes =
sense to do so. We prefer that so that we do not duplicate definitions.
>>=20
> Ok =E2=80=94 I would have preferred the definitions to show up here, =
but it=E2=80=99s ok, as long at they are defined somewhere.
>=20
> I went to look at the most recent version of =
I-D.ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls (-11), but there=E2=80=99s no =
definition of those segments.  <sigh> :-(    I=E2=80=99ll take a look at =
that document and see if they=E2=80=99re needed.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> M2. =46rom Section 2. (Terminology): =E2=80=9CUsing the same SRGB on =
all nodes within the SR domain ease operations and troubleshooting and =
is expected to be a deployment guideline.=E2=80=9D  It is =E2=80=9Cexpecte=
d to be a deployment guideline=E2=80=9D where/when??  Given that this =
document is the general architecture, I figured that maybe =
draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls contained that deployment =
recommendation, but all that document says is: =E2=80=9CAs described in =
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-routing], using the same SRGB on all nodes =
within the SR domain eases operations and troubleshooting and is =
expected to be a deployment guideline.=E2=80=9D  So=E2=80=A6where are =
the Deployment/Operational considerations related to the SRGB?  I note =
that neither document (draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing or =
draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls) include them.  I would expect =
some information to be in this (general) document and other more =
specific information (like the considerations about using the same SRGB) =
to be in the more specific document =
(draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls, in this case).
>>=20
>> =20
>> [Les:] Definition of the SRGB has been enhanced and the definition of =
an SR Domain has been introduced and discussed. We hope this clarifies =
deployment considerations as regards SRGB/SRLB.
>>=20
> SR Domain was already defined =E2=80=94 the difference seems to be the =
somewhat nebulous new text:
>=20
>   =20
> Segment Routing Domain (SR Domain)...If multiple protocol instances =
are
>    deployed, the SR domain most commonly includes all of the protocol
>    instances in a single SR domain.  However, some deployments may =
wish
>    to sub-divide the network into multiple SR domains, each of which
>    includes one or more protocol instances.  It is expected that all
>    nodes in an SR Domain are managed by the same administrative =
entity.=20
>=20
> =E2=80=A6which makes the definition depend on itself: "SR domain most =
commonly includes all of the protocol instances in a single SR domain=E2=80=
=9D (the domain includes all the instances in the domain)=E2=80=A6
>=20
> Note that one of the point above was the lack of =
Deployment/Operational Considerations in this document =E2=80=94 the =
added text above opens the door even more for such considerations: when =
would someone decide to sub-divide the network into multiple domains?  =
What might the considerations be?
>=20
> As for the SRGB definition, you did take out the part about =E2=80=9Cusi=
ng the same SRGB=E2=80=A6is expected to be a deployment guideline=E2=80=9D=
 and changed it to it being =E2=80=9Cstrongly recommended=E2=80=9D.  I =
still have the same question as before: what are the =
Deployment/Operational considerations related to the SRGB?  You did keep =
the text about how it =E2=80=9Ceases operations and troubleshooting=E2=80=9D=
, but didn=E2=80=99t provide guidance related on when/why. =20
>=20
> BTW, 3.1.2 says that "Where possible, it is recommended that a =
consistent SRGB be configured on all nodes in an SR Domain.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=
=94 I=E2=80=99m assuming =E2=80=9Cconsistent=E2=80=9D is the same as =
=E2=80=9Cthe same=E2=80=9D...
>=20
> In short, the changes didn=E2=80=99t really help me.  I think that =
this document (which introduces a new technology) should have an =
Operational Considerations section; take a look at rfc5706.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ...
>=20
>> M3. =46rom Section 2. (Terminology): =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6a global =
segment is represented by a globally-unique index.=E2=80=9D=20
>>=20
>> =20
>> M3.1.  I couldn=E2=80=99t find anywhere a discussion about the use of =
the index.  When it is discussed in 3.1.2, it seems to be an understood =
concept: =E2=80=9CA Prefix-SID is allocated in the form of an index in =
the SRGB=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D  Even if straightforward, I think the concept =
of the index should be explained (maybe with an example) and not =
assumed.  I again went to look at =
draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls, but that document just points =
back to this one: =E2=80=9CThe notion of indexed global segment, defined =
in [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-routing]=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D
>>=20
>> =20
>> [Les:] Definition of SID has been made more explicit and how an index =
is used to obtain the Segment in the SR MPLS case has been explicitly =
defined in Section 3.1.2.
>>=20
> Thanks for that=E2=80=A6one question, I didn=E2=80=99t understand what =
"X is the 0 based index=E2=80=9D means in the algorithm.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ...
>=20
>> M7. Section 3.4. (IGP-Adjacency Segment, Adj-SID) also tries to =
explain functionality starting from the extensions.
>>=20
>> =20
>> [Les:] Here as well we have removed references to IGP specifics and =
discussed the functionality on its own.
>>=20
>> =20
>> M7.1. =E2=80=9CThe encodings of the Adj-SID include the a set of =
flags among which there is the B-flag.  When set, the Adj-SID refers to =
an adjacency that is eligible for protection (e.g.: using IPFRR or =
MPLS-FRR).=E2=80=9D  If the Adjacency Segment is one that is locally =
significant to the node advertising it, what is the purpose of signaling =
that it is eligible for protection?  Wouldn=E2=80=99t that be a local =
decision as well?  Maybe an example of how the architecture is expected =
to work would help.
>>=20
> I still have the same question: what is the purpose/value to signal =
whether an Adj-SID is eligible for protection?  Isn=E2=80=99t that a =
local decision anyway?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ...
>=20
>> M8. Section 3.5. (Binding Segment).  A binding segment is not =
described anywhere in this document =E2=80=93 please do so!  Section =
3.5.1. (Mapping Server) mentions a =E2=80=9CRemote-Binding SID S =
advertised by the mapping server=E2=80=9D, and says that more =E2=80=9Cdet=
ails are described in the SR/LDP interworking procedures =
([I-D.ietf-spring-segment-routing-ldp-interop]=E2=80=9D, but that draft =
doesn=E2=80=99t mention a Binding Segment.  Section 5. (IGP Mirroring =
Context Segment) says that =E2=80=9Cthe binding segment [is] defined in =
SR IGP protocol extensions ( [I-D.ietf-isis-segment-routing-extensions], =
[I-D.ietf-ospf-segment-routing-extensions] and =
[I-D.ietf-ospf-ospfv3-segment-routing-extensions])=E2=80=9D; however, =
those documents don=E2=80=99t mention a Binding Segment, they just =
(except for the OSPFv2 draft) define TLVs.  Note that =
I-D.ietf-ospf-segment-routing-extensions points back to this document =
when referring to the definition of a Binding SID, completing a circular =
reference.
>>=20
>> =20
>> [Les:] Section on Binding Segment has been rewritten and the  Mirror =
Context discussion is a sub-section of that section.
>>=20
> It seems to me that the description is not as clear as it could be.  =
The initial sentence sounds general enough so that any/all SR Policy is =
bound/related to a BSID.  Suggestion: start the description with the =
motivation.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ...
>=20
>> M10. Section 3.6. (Inter-Area Considerations)=20
>>=20
>> =20
>> M10.1. This section shows an example of the behavior: maintain the =
SID across area boundaries.  But it doesn=E2=80=99t actually say how the =
architecture is expected to work.  IOW, in the example the SID is =
maintained, but should that always happen (MUST, SHOULD)? Or is it just =
an example (MAY)?
>>=20
>> =20
>> [Les:] With the introduction of the =E2=80=9CSR Domain=E2=80=9D =
definition we believe this point is now clarified.
>>=20
> Please see my comments above about the SR Domain definition.  I need =
you to walk me through how that definition (which just says that there =
may be one or more domains) clarifies the inter-area behavior in the =
example.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ...
>=20
>> Minor:
>>=20
>>  ...
>>=20
>> P1.4. Speaking of use cases, I-D.ietf-spring-oam-usecase doesn=E2=80=99=
t actually include use cases that will affect the architecture.  It =
includes use case of how to use monitoring system defined in it.  Same =
comment for the mention in Section 9.
>>=20
> The document is still referenced in Section 9 as a use case document.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ...
>=20
>> Nits:
>>=20
>> ...=20
>>=20
>> N9. =
s/([I-D.ietf-spring-segment-routing-ldp-interop]/[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-=
routing-ldp-interop]
>>=20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> [Les:] I do not see what you are correcting here. ???
>>=20
> There=E2=80=99s an extra =E2=80=9C(=E2=80=9C.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ...
>=20
>> N11. It would be nice if the examples used IPv6 instead of IPv4.
>>=20
>> [Les:] Hmmm=E2=80=A6the Inter-area example does use IPv6, but the =
anycast example uses IPv4. Is this now forbidden?
>>=20
> No, just trying to play nice with others =E2=80=94 just a nit.
>=20


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On November 2, 2017 at 7:59:31 AM, stefano previdi (stefano@previdi.net)
wrote:

Stefano:

Hi!

> I would also strongly recommend that you include a Deployment/Operations
Section.


what exactly would you expect to find in such section ? We have the
Manageability section which illustrates how SR can be managed. An
operation/deployment section will have to be exhaustive and illustrative on
the different use-cases that SR addresses and hence can become pretty large=
.


To my view, the draft focuses on architecture, not on deployment or
operation. These are mostly described in the different use-cases drafts.

Expectations: take a look at rfc5706.  There=E2=80=99s a lot in there, incl=
uding
manageability, which this document already has.  To be specific, a couple
of things come to mind:

- considerations about when/why the same SRGB should be used.  The text
says that it is =E2=80=9Cstrongly recommended=E2=80=9D, but it would be nic=
e to explain
further the pros/cons.

- considerations about deciding when/why someone may decide to sub-divide
the network into multiple domains vs keeping just one.  Is it a scalability
issue, or just operational simplicity?


Note that the use case documents justify the need for Segment Routing, they
don=E2=80=99t talk about how to deploy it.  The concepts above (SRGB and SR=
 Domain)
are presented in this document and statements are made about them but no
further explanation is given =E2=80=94 that is why I would strongly recomme=
nd (that
is not a MUST) that you include a Deployment/Operations Considerations
Section.

Thanks!

Alvaro.

--001a114093224bb7d4055d0051a8
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica">On November 2,=
 2017 at 7:59:31 AM, stefano previdi (<a href=3D"mailto:stefano@previdi.net=
">stefano@previdi.net</a>) wrote:</font></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" =
style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font><=
/div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px"><fo=
nt face=3D"Helvetica">Stefano:</font></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" sty=
le=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></di=
v><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px"><font =
face=3D"Helvetica">Hi!</font></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></div> <div>=
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica=
,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weigh=
t:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span><div><font face=3D"Helv=
etica"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spac=
ing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space=
:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;displ=
ay:inline!important">&gt; I would also strongly recommend that you include =
a Deployment/Operations Section.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span></span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-varian=
t-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style=3D"color:rgb(0=
,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!impo=
rtant">what exactly would you expect to find in such section ? We have the =
Manageability section which illustrates how SR can be managed. An operation=
/deployment section will have to be exhaustive and illustrative on the diff=
erent use-cases that SR addresses and hence can become pretty large.<span c=
lass=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0=
,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br sty=
le=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-=
align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spa=
cing:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-s=
pacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-sp=
ace:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;di=
splay:inline!important">To my view, the draft focuses on architecture, not =
on deployment or operation. These are mostly described in the different use=
-cases drafts.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></f=
ont></div></span></blockquote></div><p>Expectations: take a look at rfc5706=
.=C2=A0 There=E2=80=99s a lot in there, including manageability, which this=
 document already has.=C2=A0 To be specific, a couple of things come to min=
d:=C2=A0</p><p>- considerations about when/why the same SRGB should be used=
.=C2=A0 The text says that it is =E2=80=9Cstrongly recommended=E2=80=9D, bu=
t it would be nice to explain further the pros/cons.</p><p>- considerations=
 about deciding when/why someone may decide to sub-divide the network into =
multiple domains vs keeping just one.=C2=A0 Is it a scalability issue, or j=
ust operational simplicity?</p><p><br></p><p>Note that the use case documen=
ts justify the need for Segment Routing, they don=E2=80=99t talk about how =
to deploy it.=C2=A0 The concepts above (SRGB and SR Domain) are presented i=
n this document and statements are made about them but no further explanati=
on is given =E2=80=94 that is why I would strongly recommend (that is not a=
 MUST) that you include a Deployment/Operations Considerations Section.</p>=
<p>Thanks!</p><p>Alvaro.</p></body></html>

--001a114093224bb7d4055d0051a8--


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From: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
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Subject: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100
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Chairs,

I would like to request a 10 min slot to present the below draft.
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-pa=
ths-01


Thanks
Shraddha


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<div>Chairs,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I would like to request a 10 min slot to present the below draft.</div=
>
<div><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acco=
unting-for-sr-paths-01"><font color=3D"#0563C1"><u>https://tools.ietf.org/h=
tml/draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths-01</u></font></a></d=
iv>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Thanks</div>
<div>Shraddha</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
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From: "Gaurav Dawra (gdawra)" <gdawra@cisco.com>
To: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "spring-chairs@ietf.org" <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-central-epe@Ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-central-epe@Ietf.org>, "aretana.ietf@gmail.com" <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>
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 On October 30, 2017 at 2:12:18 PM, Ahmed Bashandy (bashandy) (
bashandy@cisco.com ) wrote:

Ahmed:

Hi!  How are you?

...

The main questions/concerns that I have related to this document is not
just for the authors, but for the Shepherd and the Chairs too.

Q1. Why is this document on the Standards Track? From the Introduction:
=E2=80=9CThis drafts describes how Segment Routing operates on top of the M=
PLS data
plane.=E2=80=9D  Describes, yes.  On the other hand, the Shepherd=E2=80=99s=
 write-up says
that it =E2=80=9Cspecifies the generic functions of the architecture=E2=80=
=9D =E2=80=93 I don=E2=80=99t see
a specification, just a description.  As such, I think this document should
be Informational.

#Ahmed: The new version of the draft specifies many things that are
applicable to instantiation of SR over MPLS

I=E2=80=99ll take your answer as confirming that the old version (-10) wasn=
=E2=80=99t
really specifying anything.

For this new version (-11), can you please be specific on what these =E2=80=
=9Cmany
things=E2=80=9D are?

I see some new Normative Language in the new 2.x sub-sections.  I have some
specific comments on that:

Q1.A. Section 2.2. (SID Representation in the MPLS Forwarding Plane):

   The MCC MUST ensure that any label value corresponding to any SID it
   installs in the forwarding plane follows the following rules:

   o  The label value MUST be unique within the router on which the MCC
      is running. i.e. the label MUST only be used to represent the SID.

   o  The label value MUST NOT be identical to or within the range of
      any reserved label value or range [reserved-MPLS
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls-11#ref-=
reserved-MPLS>],
respectively.

These seem to be new requirements for the MCCs. Given that the
protocol extensions (and LDP) are defined (in Section 2) as MCCs, how
are they supposed to follow these rules, specially the first one? As
far as I can tell, the IGP extensions (for example) can carry
Label/SID information from an advertising node, so I don=E2=80=99t know how=
 a
local MCC (remote to that advertising node, which is locally
"installing forwarding entries in the MPLS data plane=E2=80=9D) can guarant=
ee
what the label is used for (=E2=80=9Conly used to represent the SID=E2=80=
=9D). Maybe
I=E2=80=99m missing something and this is already specified somewhere else=
=E2=80=A6??

The second rule is just what the MPLS Architecture already specifies, no
nothing new, right? BTW, the link in the reserved-MPLS reference doesn=E2=
=80=99t
work =E2=80=94 a better reference might be rfc3032 or rfc7274.


Q1.B. Section 2.3. (Segment Routing Global Block and Local Block):

   The following rules apply to the list of MPLS ranges representing the
   SRGB

   o  The list of label ranges MUST only be used to instantiate global
      SIDs into the MPLS forwarding plane

   o  Every range in the list of ranges specifying the SRGB MUST NOT
      cover or overlap with a reserved label value or range [reserved-
      MPLS], respectively.
     . . .
   Just like SRGB, the SRLB need not be a single
   contiguous range of label, except the SRGB MUST only be used to
   instantiate global SIDs into the MPLS forwarding plane.


The first rule (and the text below them) points to the global nature of the
SR *global* Block. The architecture document already says that "In SR-MPLS,
SRGB is a local property of a node and identifies the set of local labels
reserved for global segments.=E2=80=9D Nothing new specified here.


                                 Q1.C. Section 2.4. (Mapping a SID
Index to an MPLS label) introduces an algorithm to calculate the label
value.  Note that the architecture document now includes an algorithm
(in Section 3.1.2) as well =E2=80=94 the algorithm in this document doesn=
=E2=80=99t
look to be the same, but even if it is, it would be confusing to
specify the same thing in two places.


                 Q1.D. The rest of the sub-sections seem to rehash
forwarding behaviors, which, because of the fact that the MPLS
architecture is not changing, seem to add nothing interesting or
important to this document.

 Having said all that, I still don=E2=80=99t see a clear justification for
this document to be in the Standards Track.

 Q2. Section 2. (MPLS Instantiation of Segment Routing) is the only one
with any real content=E2=80=A6but there are only a couple of things in it t=
hat are
not in the Architecture document: the introduction of the SRLB, and some
words about the index =E2=80=93 both of which should be really explained in=
 the
Architecture document, and not here.  I wonder what the value of publishing
this document really is.  What long-term archival value does it provide?

#Ahmed: The long term plan is to move details of MPLS-specific
specifications to this document and keep the architecture document more
general

The =E2=80=9Clong term plan=E2=80=9D ??  What do you mean?  The architectur=
e document is
already in IETF Last Call =E2=80=94 are you saying that both documents stil=
l
require more changes and are not ready for publication?  I really hope that
is not what you mean.

In any case, you did not answer my question about the value of the document
as is.  No worries, the intent is not to stop publication, but to
understand whether there is something I=E2=80=99m missing and the relations=
hip to
the proposed Status.


Q3. I also have to wonder about the IPR declared for this document.  If
most of the information here is already defined, described or specified in
draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing, should the IPR declaration apply to that
document as well (or maybe instead of this one)?  It is not the IETF=E2=80=
=99s role
(including the WG) to discuss whether a piece of IPR is valid or not =E2=80=
=93 I
just want to make sure the disclosures apply to the right document.

#Ahmed: We will make sure that all IPR is declared

That was not my question!   And declaring IPR at this point in time is
very, very late (rfc6701).


I didn=E2=80=99t find a discussion on the list about any of these points.

I am concerned about all the text that has been added (which in my opinion
doesn=E2=80=99t contribute much to the document), resulting in about a 70% =
increase
the document length!  I will wait for your answer to my points above before
returning the document to the WG for a thorough review.


I have some other specific comments below.

Thanks!

Alvaro.

...

P3. Section 2. (MPLS Instantiation of Segment Routing) says that =E2=80=9Ca
controller-driven network=E2=80=A6MAY use the control plane to discover the
available set of local SIDs=E2=80=9D.  The =E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D implies th=
at there is a choice
(i.e. it is optional) and that other discovery mechanisms exist.  What are
those other choices?  Note that earlier in this section you already wrote
that IGPs are used for flooding the information.  s/MAY/may

#Ahmed: This document gives an example of a use of the SRLB. Listing all
possible uses of the SRLB is certainly not within the scope of this
document.

I=E2=80=99m not sure what your answer has to do with my comment=E2=80=A6but=
 giving examples
is a good reason to *not* use Normative language.

In any case, that piece of text was not changed from:

   In a controller-driven network, some controllers or
   applications MAY use the control plane to discover the available set
   of local SIDs on a particular router.  In such cases, the SRLB is
   advertised in the control plane (e.g., using
   [I-D.ietf-isis-segment-routing-extensions
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls-10#ref-=
I-D.ietf-isis-segment-routing-extensions>]).

 =E2=80=A6to=E2=80=A6

             In a controller-driven network, some controllers or
   applications MAY use the control plane to discover the available set
   of local SIDs on a particular router [I.D. filsfils-spring-segment-
   routing-policy].


The =E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D is still there (which was the main point of the c=
omment
above), and you added a new reference to apparently illustrate the
point that the control plane can be used "to discover the available
set of local SIDs on a particular router=E2=80=9D.  Isn=E2=80=99t that alre=
ady
specified in the architecture document?  Why do we need this new
reference?



...

P5. References.  Please take a look at rfc8174 and update the =E2=80=9CRequ=
irements
Language=E2=80=9D and associated references.

#Ahmed: I agree. I modified the paragraph about requirements language to
conform to rfc8174

You forgot to include the rfc8174 reference.

Nits



N1. I think that the references to *-segment-routing-extensions are
superfluous.  BTW, the fourth paragraph of the Introduction uses a
reference to *-segment-routing-extensions to point at ISIS/OSPF (the
protocols!).

#Ahmed: I agree. Now we have clear references to each IGP extensions
separately

The point was that I think all references to the extensions are superfluous
=E2=80=94 not a request to add them.

--94eb2c1c21bcf4e0f7055d07cb87
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head>
        <style type=3D"text/css">body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px}</style>
        <title></title>
    </head>
    <body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
        <div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px">
            <div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px"><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(39,93,144);font-family:Helvetica">On October 30, 2017 at 2:12=
:18 PM, Ahmed Bashandy (bashandy) (</span><a href=3D"mailto:bashandy@cisco.=
com" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica">bashandy@cisco.com</a><span style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(39,93,144);font-family:Helvetica">
                 ) wrote:</span></div></div>
        <p class=3D"airmail_on">
            <font face=3D"Helvetica">Ahmed:</font>
        </p>
        <p class=3D"airmail_on">
            <font face=3D"Helvetica">Hi!=C2=A0 How are you?</font>
        </p>
        <p class=3D"airmail_on">
            <font face=3D"Helvetica">...</font>
        </p>
        <div>
            <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:norma=
l;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
                <div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlin=
k=3D"#954F72">
                    <div>
                        <div class=3D"WordSection1">
                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">The main questions/conce=
rns that I have related to this document is not just for the authors, but f=
or the Shepherd and the Chairs too.=C2=A0
</p>
                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Q1. Why is this document=
 on the Standards Track? From the Introduction: =E2=80=9CThis drafts descri=
bes how Segment Routing operates on top of the MPLS data plane.=E2=80=9D=C2=
=A0 Describes, yes.=C2=A0 On the other hand, the Shepherd=E2=80=99s write-u=
p says that it =E2=80=9Cspecifies the generic functions of the architecture=
=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 I don=E2=80=99t see a specification, just a description=
.=C2=A0 As such, I think this document should be Informational.
</p>
                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">#Ahmed: The new version =
of the draft specifies many things that are applicable to instantiation of =
SR over MPLS
</p>
                        </div>
                    </div>
                </div>
            </blockquote>
        </div>
        <p>I=E2=80=99ll take your answer as confirming that the old version=
 (-10) wasn=E2=80=99t really specifying anything.
</p>
        <p>For this new version (-11), can you please be specific on what t=
hese =E2=80=9Cmany things=E2=80=9D are?
</p>
        <p>I see some new Normative Language in the new 2.x sub-sections.=
=C2=A0 I have some specific comments on that:
</p>
        <p>Q1.A. Section=C2=A02.2. (SID Representation in the MPLS Forwardi=
ng Plane):
</p>
        <pre class=3D"newpage">   The MCC MUST ensure that any label value =
corresponding to any SID it
   installs in the forwarding plane follows the following rules:

   o  The label value MUST be unique within the router on which the MCC
      is running. i.e. the label MUST only be used to represent the SID.

   o  The label value MUST NOT be identical to or within the range of
      any reserved label value or range [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/=
html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls-11#ref-reserved-MPLS" title=3D"=
&quot;Special-Purpose Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) Label Values&quo=
t;">reserved-MPLS</a>], respectively.


<font face=3D"Helvetica">These seem to be new requirements for the MCCs. Gi=
ven that the protocol extensions (and LDP) are defined (in Section 2) as MC=
Cs, how are they supposed to follow these rules, specially the first one? A=
s far as I can tell, the IGP extensions (for example) can carry Label/SID i=
nformation from an advertising node, so I don=E2=80=99t know how a local MC=
C (remote to that advertising node, which is locally &quot;installing forwa=
rding entries in the MPLS data plane=E2=80=9D) can guarantee what the label=
 is used for (=E2=80=9Conly used to represent the SID=E2=80=9D). Maybe I=E2=
=80=99m missing something and this is already specified somewhere else=E2=
=80=A6??</font><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial"><br></span></pre=
>
        <div>
            <span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial">The second rule is =
just what the MPLS Architecture already specifies, no nothing new, right? B=
TW, the link in the reserved-MPLS reference doesn=E2=80=99t work =E2=80=94 =
a better reference might be rfc3032 or rfc7274.</span>
            <p>
                <br>
            </p>
            <p>Q1.B. Section=C2=A02.3. (Segment Routing Global Block and Lo=
cal Block):
</p>
            <pre class=3D"newpage">   The following rules apply to the list=
 of MPLS ranges representing the
   SRGB

   o  The list of label ranges MUST only be used to instantiate global
      SIDs into the MPLS forwarding plane

   o  Every range in the list of ranges specifying the SRGB MUST NOT
      cover or overlap with a reserved label value or range [reserved-
      MPLS], respectively.
     . . .
   Just like SRGB, the SRLB need not be a single
   contiguous range of label, except the SRGB MUST only be used to
   instantiate global SIDs into the MPLS forwarding plane.

</pre>
            <span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica">The first rule (and the t=
ext below them) points to the global nature of the SR *global* Block. The a=
rchitecture document already says that &quot;In SR-MPLS, SRGB is a local pr=
operty of a node and identifies the set of local labels reserved for global=
 segments.=E2=80=9D Nothing new specified here.</span>
            <pre class=3D"newpage">            <span style=3D"font-family:H=
elvetica">
</span>
                                =20
<span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica">Q1.C. Section </span><font face=3D"He=
lvetica">2.4. (Mapping a SID Index to an MPLS label) introduces an algorith=
m to calculate the label value.  Note that the architecture document now in=
cludes an algorithm (in Section 3.1.2) as well =E2=80=94 the algorithm in t=
his document doesn=E2=80=99t look to be the same, but even if it is, it wou=
ld be confusing to specify the same thing in two places.</font>
                =20
                =20
                =20
<span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial">Q1.D. The rest of the sub-secti=
ons seem to rehash forwarding behaviors, which, because of the fact that th=
e MPLS architecture is not changing, seem to add nothing interesting or imp=
ortant to this document.</span>
                =20

</pre>
            <pre class=3D"newpage"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Ari=
al">Having said all that, I still don=E2=80=99t see a clear justification f=
or this document to be in the Standards Track.</span>
                <span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial">         </span=
>
</pre><pre>
</pre>
            <div>
                <div>
                    <div>
                        <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;te=
xt-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
                            <div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#=
0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
                                <div>
                                    <div class=3D"WordSection1">
                                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                            <span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,=
125);font-family:Helvetica">Q2. Section 2. (MPLS Instantiation of Segment R=
outing) is the only one with any real content=E2=80=A6but there are only a =
couple of things in it that are not in the Architecture document: the intro=
duction of the SRLB, and some words about the index =E2=80=93 both of which=
 should be really explained in the Architecture document, and not here.=C2=
=A0 I wonder what the value of publishing this document really is.=C2=A0 Wh=
at long-term archival value does it provide?</span>
                                        </p>
                                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                            <span>
                                                <font face=3D"Helvetica" co=
lor=3D"#1F497D">#Ahmed: The long term plan is to move details of MPLS-speci=
fic specifications to this document and keep the architecture document more=
 general</font>
                                            </span>
                                        </p>
                                    </div>
                                </div>
                            </div>
                        </blockquote>
                    </div>
                    <p>The =E2=80=9Clong term plan=E2=80=9D ??=C2=A0 What d=
o you mean?=C2=A0 The architecture document is already in IETF Last Call =
=E2=80=94 are you saying that both documents still require more changes and=
 are not ready for publication?=C2=A0 I really hope that is not what you me=
an.=C2=A0
</p>
                    <p>In any case, you did not answer my question about th=
e value of the document as is.=C2=A0 No worries, the intent is not to stop =
publication, but to understand whether there is something I=E2=80=99m missi=
ng and the relationship to the proposed Status.
</p>
                    <p>
                        <br>
                    </p>
                    <div>
                        <div>
                            <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" st=
yle=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-va=
riant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start=
;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
                                <div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=
=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
                                    <div class=3D"WordSection1">
                                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                            <span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,=
125);font-family:Helvetica">Q3. I also have to wonder about the IPR declare=
d for this document.=C2=A0 If most of the information here is already defin=
ed, described or specified in draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing, should the=
 IPR declaration apply to that document as well (or maybe instead of this o=
ne)?=C2=A0 It is not the IETF=E2=80=99s role (including the WG) to discuss =
whether a piece of IPR is valid or not =E2=80=93 I just want to make sure t=
he disclosures apply to the right document.</span>
                                        </p>
                                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                            <span>
                                                <font face=3D"Helvetica" co=
lor=3D"#1F497D">#Ahmed: We will make sure that all IPR is declared</font>
                                            </span>
                                        </p>
                                    </div>
                                </div>
                            </blockquote>
                        </div>
                        <p>That was not my question! =C2=A0 And declaring I=
PR at this point in time is very, very late (rfc6701).
</p>
                        <p>
                            <br>
                        </p>
                        <div>
                            <div>
                                <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq=
" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;fon=
t-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:s=
tart;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0p=
x">
                                    <div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" l=
ink=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
                                        <div class=3D"WordSection1">
                                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                <span style=3D"color:rgb(31=
,73,125);font-family:Helvetica">I didn=E2=80=99t find a discussion on the l=
ist about any of these points.</span>
                                            </p>
                                        </div>
                                    </div>
                                </blockquote>
                            </div>
                            <p>I am concerned about all the text that has b=
een added (which in my opinion doesn=E2=80=99t contribute much to the docum=
ent), resulting in about a 70% increase the document length!=C2=A0 I will w=
ait for your answer to my points above before returning the document to the=
 WG for a thorough review.
</p>
                            <p>
                                <br>
                            </p>
                            <p>I have some other specific comments below.
</p>
                            <p>Thanks!
</p>
                            <p>Alvaro.
</p>
                            <p>...
</p>
                            <div>
                                <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq=
" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;fon=
t-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:s=
tart;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0p=
x">
                                    <div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" l=
ink=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
                                        <div class=3D"WordSection1">
                                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                <span>
                                                    <font face=3D"Helvetica=
" color=3D"#1F497D">P3. Section 2. (MPLS Instantiation of Segment Routing) =
says that =E2=80=9Ca controller-driven network=E2=80=A6MAY use the control =
plane to discover the available set of local SIDs=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 The =E2=
=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D implies that there is a choice (i.e. it is optional) and=
 that other discovery mechanisms exist.=C2=A0 What are those other choices?=
=C2=A0 Note that earlier in this section you already wrote that IGPs are us=
ed for flooding the information.=C2=A0 s/MAY/may</font>
                                                </span>
                                            </p>
                                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                <span>
                                                    <font face=3D"Helvetica=
" color=3D"#1F497D">#Ahmed: This document gives an example of a use of the =
SRLB. Listing all possible uses of the SRLB is certainly not within the sco=
pe of this document.</font>
                                                </span>
                                            </p>
                                        </div>
                                    </div>
                                </blockquote>
                            </div>
                        </div>
                    </div>
                </div>
                <p>I=E2=80=99m not sure what your answer has to do with my =
comment=E2=80=A6but giving examples is a good reason to *not* use Normative=
 language.
</p>
                <p>In any case, that piece of text was not changed from:
</p>
                <pre class=3D"newpage">   In a controller-driven network, s=
ome controllers or
   applications MAY use the control plane to discover the available set
   of local SIDs on a particular router.  In such cases, the SRLB is
   advertised in the control plane (e.g., using
   [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routin=
g-mpls-10#ref-I-D.ietf-isis-segment-routing-extensions">I-D.ietf-isis-segme=
nt-routing-extensions</a>]).

<span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial">                </span>
 <font face=3D"Helvetica">=E2=80=A6to=E2=80=A6</font>
                    =20
</pre><pre class=3D"newpage">             In a controller-driven network, s=
ome controllers or
   applications MAY use the control plane to discover the available set
   of local SIDs on a particular router [I.D. filsfils-spring-segment-
   routing-policy].</pre><pre class=3D"newpage"><span style=3D"font-family:=
Helvetica"><br></span></pre><pre class=3D"newpage"><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Helvetica">The =E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D is still there (which was the main =
point of the comment above), and you added a new reference to apparently il=
lustrate the point that the control plane can be used &quot;to discover the=
 available set of local SIDs on a particular router=E2=80=9D.  Isn=E2=80=99=
t that already specified in the architecture document?  Why do we need this=
 new reference?</span></pre><pre class=3D"newpage">                    =20
                    =20
...
</pre><div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-=
family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:n=
ormal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent=
:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div bgcolor=
=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div><div clas=
s=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,12=
5);font-family:Helvetica">P5. References.=C2=A0 Please take a look at rfc81=
74 and update the =E2=80=9CRequirements Language=E2=80=9D and associated re=
ferences.</span></p>
                                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                            <span>
                                                <font face=3D"Helvetica" co=
lor=3D"#1F497D">#Ahmed: I agree. I modified the paragraph about requirement=
s language to conform to rfc8174</font>
                                            </span>
                                        </p>
                                    </div>
                                </div>
                            </div>
                        </blockquote>
                    </div>
                    <p>You forgot to include the rfc8174 reference.
</p>
                    <div>
                        <div>
                            <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" st=
yle=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-va=
riant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start=
;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
                                <div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=
=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
                                    <div>
                                        <div class=3D"WordSection1">
                                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                <span style=3D"color:rgb(31=
,73,125);font-family:Helvetica">Nits</span><span>
                                                    <font face=3D"Helvetica=
" color=3D"#1F497D">
                                                        </font></span></p>
                                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                <span>
                                                    <font face=3D"Helvetica=
" color=3D"#1F497D">=C2=A0</font>
                                                </span>
                                            </p>
                                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                <span>
                                                    <font face=3D"Helvetica=
" color=3D"#1F497D">N1. I think that the references to *-segment-routing-ex=
tensions are superfluous.=C2=A0 BTW, the fourth paragraph of the Introducti=
on uses a reference to *-segment-routing-extensions to point at ISIS/OSPF (=
the protocols!).</font>
                                                </span>
                                            </p>
                                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
                                                <span>
                                                    <font face=3D"Helvetica=
" color=3D"#1F497D">#Ahmed: I agree. Now we have clear references to each I=
GP extensions separately</font>
                                                </span>
                                            </p>
                                        </div>
                                    </div>
                                </div>
                            </blockquote>
                        </div>
                        <p>The point was that I think all references to the=
 extensions are superfluous =E2=80=94 not a request to add them.</p></div><=
/div></div>
        </div>
    =20
</body></html>

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Shraddha,

Could this traffic accounting format be represented as a YANG module? If =
so, can it be part of an existing SR YANG module or would you define a =
new model?

> On Nov 3, 2017, at 12:14 AM, Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net> =
wrote:
>=20
> Chairs,
> =20
> I would like to request a 10 min slot to present the below draft.
> =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-p=
aths-01 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-=
paths-01>
> =20
> =20
> Thanks
> Shraddha
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring>
Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Shraddha,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Could this traffic accounting format be represented as a YANG =
module? If so, can it be part of an existing SR YANG module or would you =
define a new model?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Nov 3, 2017, at 12:14 AM, =
Shraddha Hegde &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net" =
class=3D"">shraddha@juniper.net</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Calibri"=
 size=3D"2" style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Chairs,</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">I =
would like to request a 10 min slot to present the below =
draft.</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-=
for-sr-paths-01" class=3D""><font color=3D"#0563C1" class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounti=
ng-for-sr-paths-01</u></font></a></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">Thanks</div><div =
class=3D"">Shraddha</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div></span></font><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
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none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
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Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">spring mailing =
list</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><a =
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class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring</a></div></blockqu=
ote></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Mahesh Jethanandani</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a></div>

</div>
<br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
To: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Adrian Farrel <afarrel@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100
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Subject: Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100
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Mahesh,

I have only seen https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-sr-yang=
 for YANG and it does not have
Anything related to traffic statistics counters AFAIK.
Is there any other model that I am not aware of?

Rgds
Shraddha

From: Mahesh Jethanandani [mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, November 3, 2017 8:53 AM
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
Cc: spring@ietf.org; Adrian Farrel <afarrel@juniper.net>
Subject: Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100

Shraddha,

Could this traffic accounting format be represented as a YANG module? If so=
, can it be part of an existing SR YANG module or would you define a new mo=
del?

On Nov 3, 2017, at 12:14 AM, Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net<mailto:sh=
raddha@juniper.net>> wrote:

Chairs,

I would like to request a 10 min slot to present the below draft.
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-pa=
ths-01<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.or=
g_html_draft-2Dhegde-2Dspring-2Dtraffic-2Daccounting-2Dfor-2Dsr-2Dpaths-2D0=
1&d=3DDwMFAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DNyjLsr7JA7=
mvpCJa0YmPdVKcmMXJ31bpbBaNqzCNrng&m=3D-qbSPtOSkJdMwB1l9hkiqa9-N3yK1guGZ2mpi=
IW2xTw&s=3D0T_gwWUhvIuteydQEocfAwWi4FkB-D4Xzz500OjQX5Q&e=3D>


Thanks
Shraddha

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
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Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com<mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com>


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Mahesh,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I have only seen
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-sr-yang">http=
s://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-sr-yang</a> for YANG and it =
does not have<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Anything related to traffic statistic=
s counters AFAIK.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Is there any other model that I am no=
t aware of?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></a></p>
<span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Mahesh Jethanandani [mailto:mj=
ethanandani@gmail.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 3, 2017 8:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Shraddha Hegde &lt;shraddha@juniper.net&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> spring@ietf.org; Adrian Farrel &lt;afarrel@juniper.net&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Shraddha,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Could this traffic accounting format be represented =
as a YANG module? If so, can it be part of an existing SR YANG module or wo=
uld you define a new model?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Nov 3, 2017, at 12:14 AM, Shraddha Hegde &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net">shraddha@juniper.net</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Chairs,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">I would like to request a 10 min slot to present th=
e below draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?=
u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dhegde-2Dspring-2Dtraffic-2Daccoun=
ting-2Dfor-2Dsr-2Dpaths-2D01&amp;d=3DDwMFAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjB=
XeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DNyjLsr7JA7mvpCJa0YmPdVKcmMXJ31bpbBaNqzCNrng&am=
p;m=3D-qbSPtOSkJdMwB1l9hkiqa9-N3yK1guGZ2mpiIW2xTw&amp;s=3D0T_gwWUhvIuteydQE=
ocfAwWi4FkB-D4Xzz500OjQX5Q&amp;e=3D"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0563C1">https://tools.ietf.org/=
html/draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths-01</span></a><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">_______________________________________________<br=
>
spring mailing list<br>
</span><a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">spring@ietf.org</span></a><span=
 style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br=
>
</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__ww=
w.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_spring&amp;d=3DDwMFAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scb=
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ont-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l=
istinfo/spring</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mahesh Jethanandani<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com">mjethanan=
dani@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>, Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
CC: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Adrian Farrel <afarrel@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100
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Subject: Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100
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From: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
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Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 18:11:58 +0530
Cc: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Adrian Farrel <afarrel@juniper.net>
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To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/io7jwb0ppU7jA8-zDMYYX8K8Eg0>
Subject: Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100
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I would suggest that the draft define the augmentation of the SR yang model.=
 Operationally, defining the statistics without defining how they can be ret=
rieved does not make sense.=20

Mahesh Jethanandani=20
mjethanandani@gmail.com

> On Nov 3, 2017, at 5:51 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Shraddha,=20
>=20
> If your SR traffic statistics draft progresses, the ietf-segment-routing m=
odel would need to be augmented. I don=E2=80=99t see having the YANG model a=
ugmentations as a prerequisite.=20
>=20
> Thanks,
> Acee=20
>=20
> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Shraddha Hegde <shradd=
ha@juniper.net>
> Date: Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 11:53 PM
> To: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
> Cc: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Adrian Farrel <afarrel@juniper.ne=
t>
> Subject: Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100
>=20
> Mahesh,
> =20
> I have only seen https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-sr-yan=
g for YANG and it does not have
> Anything related to traffic statistics counters AFAIK.
> Is there any other model that I am not aware of?
> =20
> Rgds
> Shraddha
> =20
> From: Mahesh Jethanandani [mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com]=20
> Sent: Friday, November 3, 2017 8:53 AM
> To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
> Cc: spring@ietf.org; Adrian Farrel <afarrel@juniper.net>
> Subject: Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100
> =20
> Shraddha,
> =20
> Could this traffic accounting format be represented as a YANG module? If s=
o, can it be part of an existing SR YANG module or would you define a new mo=
del?
> =20
> On Nov 3, 2017, at 12:14 AM, Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net> wrote:
> =20
> Chairs,
> =20
> I would like to request a 10 min slot to present the below draft.
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-p=
aths-01
> =20
> =20
> Thanks
> Shraddha
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> =20
> Mahesh Jethanandani
> mjethanandani@gmail.com
> =20

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>I would suggest that the draft define t=
he augmentation of the SR yang model. Operationally, defining the statistics=
 without defining how they can be retrieved does not make sense.&nbsp;<br><b=
r>Mahesh Jethanandani&nbsp;<div><a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com">m=
jethanandani@gmail.com</a></div></div><div><br>On Nov 3, 2017, at 5:51 PM, A=
cee Lindem (acee) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acee@cisco.com">acee@cisco.com</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>

<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8">


<div>Hi Shraddha,&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If your SR traffic statistics draft progresses, the ietf-segment-routin=
g model would need to be augmented. I don=E2=80=99t see having the YANG mode=
l augmentations as a prerequisite.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>Acee&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:bl=
ack; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0=
in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BO=
RDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:s=
pring-bounces@ietf.org">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Shraddh=
a Hegde &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net">shraddha@juniper.net</a>=
&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 1=
1:53 PM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Mahesh Jethanandani &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>"<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.o=
rg">spring@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.=
org</a>&gt;, Adrian Farrel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:afarrel@juniper.net">afarre=
l@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [spring] Slot request f=
or IETF 100<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #=
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ns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http://ww=
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Mahesh,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I have only seen
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-sr-yang">https=
://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-sr-yang</a> for YANG and it do=
es not have<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Anything related to traffic statistics c=
ounters AFAIK.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Is there any other model that I am not a=
ware of?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></a></p>
<span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Mahesh Jethanandani [<a href=3D"m=
ailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com">mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 3, 2017 8:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Shraddha Hegde &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net">shradd=
ha@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>; Adrian Fa=
rrel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:afarrel@juniper.net">afarrel@juniper.net</a>&gt;<=
br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100<o:p></o:p></span></p>=

</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Shraddha,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Could this traffic accounting format be represented a=
s a YANG module? If so, can it be part of an existing SR YANG module or woul=
d you define a new model?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Nov 3, 2017, at 12:14 AM, Shraddha Hegde &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net">shraddha@juniper.net</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif">Chairs,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif">I would like to request a 10 min slot to present the b=
elow draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dhegde-2Dspring-2Dtraffic-2Daccounti=
ng-2Dfor-2Dsr-2Dpaths-2D01&amp;d=3DDwMFAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeM=
K-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DNyjLsr7JA7mvpCJa0YmPdVKcmMXJ31bpbBaNqzCNrng&amp;m=3D=
-qbSPtOSkJdMwB1l9hkiqa9-N3yK1guGZ2mpiIW2xTw&amp;s=3D0T_gwWUhvIuteydQEocfAwWi=
4FkB-D4Xzz500OjQX5Q&amp;e=3D"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0563C1">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draf=
t-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths-01</span></a><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">_______________________________________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
</span><a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">spring@ietf.org</span></a><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www=
.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_spring&amp;d=3DDwMFAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh=
0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DNyjLsr7JA7mvpCJa0YmPdVKcmMXJ31bpbBaNqzCNrng=
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amily:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf=
o/spring</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mahesh Jethanandani<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com">mjethanand=
ani@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>


</div></blockquote></body></html>=

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Reply-To: <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Mahesh Jethanandani'" <mjethanandani@gmail.com>, "'Acee Lindem \(acee\)'" <acee@cisco.com>
Cc: <spring@ietf.org>, "'Adrian Farrel'" <afarrel@juniper.net>, "'Shraddha Hegde'" <shraddha@juniper.net>
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Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 13:19:55 -0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/6kq-o-F8YhL3GiWkt1o0atT4DJk>
Subject: Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100
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Hi all,
=20
This document defines a mechanism that enables the identification of SR =
paths (i.e., end-to-end flows) and so allows counting at a different =
granularity. But it doesn't define specific statistics, nor does it set =
out other uses (such as OAM) for identifying SR paths.
=20
I appreciate the enthusiasm for working on new statistics and the YANG =
model augmentation. I hope we can all pitch in and do that. But I think =
that belongs in a separate document from where the path identifier is =
defined.
=20
Do you all want to sit down in Singapore and talk through the model =
augmentation.
=20
Adrian
=20
=20
From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mahesh =
Jethanandani
Sent: 03 November 2017 12:42
To: Acee Lindem (acee)
Cc: spring@ietf.org; Adrian Farrel; Shraddha Hegde
Subject: Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100
=20
I would suggest that the draft define the augmentation of the SR yang =
model. Operationally, defining the statistics without defining how they =
can be retrieved does not make sense.=20

Mahesh Jethanandani=20
mjethanandani@gmail.com

On Nov 3, 2017, at 5:51 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com> wrote:
Hi Shraddha,=20
=20
If your SR traffic statistics draft progresses, the ietf-segment-routing =
model would need to be augmented. I don=E2=80=99t see having the YANG =
model augmentations as a prerequisite.=20
=20
Thanks,
Acee=20
=20
From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Shraddha Hegde =
<shraddha@juniper.net>
Date: Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 11:53 PM
To: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
Cc: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, Adrian Farrel =
<afarrel@juniper.net>
Subject: Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100
=20
Mahesh,
=20
I have only seen =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-sr-yang for YANG and =
it does not have
Anything related to traffic statistics counters AFAIK.
Is there any other model that I am not aware of?
=20
Rgds
Shraddha
=20

From: Mahesh Jethanandani [mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Friday, November 3, 2017 8:53 AM
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
Cc: spring@ietf.org; Adrian Farrel <afarrel@juniper.net>
Subject: Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100
=20
Shraddha,
=20
Could this traffic accounting format be represented as a YANG module? If =
so, can it be part of an existing SR YANG module or would you define a =
new model?
=20
On Nov 3, 2017, at 12:14 AM, Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net> =
wrote:
=20
Chairs,
=20
I would like to request a 10 min slot to present the below draft.
 =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dhegde-2Dspring-2Dtraffic-2Daccounting-2Dfor-2Dsr-2Dpaths-2D01&=
d=3DDwMFAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DNyjLsr7JA7=
mvpCJa0YmPdVKcmMXJ31bpbBaNqzCNrng&m=3D-qbSPtOSkJdMwB1l9hkiqa9-N3yK1guGZ2m=
piIW2xTw&s=3D0T_gwWUhvIuteydQEocfAwWi4FkB-D4Xzz500OjQX5Q&e=3D> =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-=
paths-01
=20
=20
Thanks
Shraddha
=20
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
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 =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
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WzoCI&r=3DNyjLsr7JA7mvpCJa0YmPdVKcmMXJ31bpbBaNqzCNrng&m=3D-qbSPtOSkJdMwB1=
l9hkiqa9-N3yK1guGZ2mpiIW2xTw&s=3DeF-gCphLyrNGcGxX4dv7nZ17v70Fikym6wj_kqW3=
7IY&e=3D> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
=20
Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com
=20

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-GB link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'tab-interval:36.0pt'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Hi =
all,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>This document defines a =
mechanism that enables the identification of SR paths (i.e., end-to-end =
flows) and so allows counting at a different granularity. But it doesn't =
define specific statistics, nor does it set out other uses (such as OAM) =
for identifying SR paths.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>I appreciate the enthusiasm =
for working on new statistics and the YANG model augmentation. I hope we =
can all pitch in and do that. But I think that belongs in a separate =
document from where the path identifier is =
defined.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Do you all want to sit down in =
Singapore and talk through the model =
augmentation.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Adrian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-f=
ont-family:"Times New =
Roman";mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-f=
ont-family:"Times New Roman";mso-ansi-language:EN-US'> spring =
[mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mahesh =
Jethanandani<br><b>Sent:</b> 03 November 2017 12:42<br><b>To:</b> Acee =
Lindem (acee)<br><b>Cc:</b> spring@ietf.org; Adrian Farrel; Shraddha =
Hegde<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF =
100<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>I would suggest that =
the draft define the augmentation of the SR yang model. Operationally, =
defining the statistics without defining how they can be retrieved does =
not make sense.&nbsp;<br><br>Mahesh =
Jethanandani&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><a =
href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><br>On Nov 3, 2017, =
at 5:51 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:acee@cisco.com">acee@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New =
Roman"'>Hi Shraddha,&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New =
Roman"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New =
Roman"'>If your SR traffic statistics draft progresses, the =
ietf-segment-routing model would need to be augmented. I don=E2=80=99t =
see having the YANG model augmentations as a =
prerequisite.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New =
Roman"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New =
Roman"'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New =
Roman"'>Acee&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New =
Roman"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-fareast-=
font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black'>From: </span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-fareast-=
font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black'>spring &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; =
on behalf of Shraddha Hegde &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net">shraddha@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br><b>D=
ate: </b>Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 11:53 PM<br><b>To: </b>Mahesh =
Jethanandani &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a>&gt;<b=
r><b>Cc: </b>&quot;<a =
href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Adrian Farrel =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:afarrel@juniper.net">afarrel@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br><b>Sub=
ject: </b>Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF =
100<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New =
Roman"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0cm' =
id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Mahesh,</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>I have only seen <a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-sr-yang">https=
://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-sr-yang</a> for YANG and =
it does not have</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Anything related to traffic statistics =
counters AFAIK.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Is there any other model that I am not aware =
of?</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Rgds</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Shraddha</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span></a><span =
style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><span =
style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose'></span><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lan=
guage:EN-US'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lan=
guage:EN-US'> Mahesh Jethanandani [<a =
href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com">mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com</a=
>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 3, 2017 8:53 AM<br><b>To:</b> =
Shraddha Hegde &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net">shraddha@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br><b>C=
c:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>; Adrian =
Farrel &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:afarrel@juniper.net">afarrel@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br><b>Sub=
ject:</b> Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100</span><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Shraddha,<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Could this traffic accounting format =
be represented as a YANG module? If so, can it be part of an existing SR =
YANG module or would you define a new =
model?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><block=
quote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>On Nov 3, 2017, at 12:14 AM, Shraddha =
Hegde &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net">shraddha@juniper.net</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lan=
guage:EN-US'>Chairs,</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lan=
guage:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lan=
guage:EN-US'>I would like to request a 10 min slot to present the below =
draft.</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf=
.org_html_draft-2Dhegde-2Dspring-2Dtraffic-2Daccounting-2Dfor-2Dsr-2Dpath=
s-2D01&amp;d=3DDwMFAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI=
&amp;r=3DNyjLsr7JA7mvpCJa0YmPdVKcmMXJ31bpbBaNqzCNrng&amp;m=3D-qbSPtOSkJdM=
wB1l9hkiqa9-N3yK1guGZ2mpiIW2xTw&amp;s=3D0T_gwWUhvIuteydQEocfAwWi4FkB-D4Xz=
z500OjQX5Q&amp;e=3D"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#0563C=
1'>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-=
sr-paths-01</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lan=
guage:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lan=
guage:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lan=
guage:EN-US'>Thanks</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lan=
guage:EN-US'>Shraddha</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-ansi-lan=
guage:EN-US'>&nbsp;</span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";mso-ansi-la=
nguage:EN-US'>_______________________________________________<br>spring =
mailing list<br></span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><a =
href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>spring@iet=
f.org</span></a></span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";mso-ansi-la=
nguage:EN-US'><br></span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.o=
rg_mailman_listinfo_spring&amp;d=3DDwMFAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjB=
XeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DNyjLsr7JA7mvpCJa0YmPdVKcmMXJ31bpbBaNqzCNrng&=
amp;m=3D-qbSPtOSkJdMwB1l9hkiqa9-N3yK1guGZ2mpiIW2xTw&amp;s=3DeF-gCphLyrNGc=
GxX4dv7nZ17v70Fikym6wj_kqW37IY&amp;e=3D"><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>https://ww=
w.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div>=
</blockquote></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Mahesh =
Jethanandani<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><a =
href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div=
></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div></body></html>
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On October 30, 2017 at 1:53:07 AM, Gaurav Dawra (gdawra) (gdawra@cisco.com)
wrote:

Gaurav:

Hi!  Thanks for taking over this document!

I have some remaining comments below, please take a look.  I=E2=80=99m star=
ting the
IETF Last Call, which will be extended to account for the IETF meeting and
the US Holidays.

Thanks!

Alvaro.


...

M2.3. =E2=80=9CThe solution SHOULD minimize the need for new BGP capabiliti=
es at
the ingress PEs.=E2=80=9D  What is the explicit requirement, that needs the
=E2=80=9CSHOULD=E2=80=9D, from an interoperability point of view?

<Gaurav> At Ingress PE, this requirement covers that there is need for some
minimal configuration or protocol extension for Egress Engineering.

Ok, but (1) the text doesn=E2=80=99t talk about configuration (just capabil=
ities),
and (2) I really think that Normative Language should not be used in this
case because there=E2=80=99s really nothing that can be enforced: =E2=80=9C=
SHOULD=E2=80=9D means
that =E2=80=9Cthere may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to =
ignore a
particular item=E2=80=9D, so there=E2=80=99s nothing that can be done if an=
 extension or
configuration is justified.  Please s/SHOULD/should.


M2.4. =E2=80=9CThe solution MUST accommodate an ingress BGP-EPE policy at a=
n
ingress PE or directly at a source host within the domain.=E2=80=9D  =E2=80=
=9CMUST
accommodate=E2=80=9D??  What are you looking for?  The ability to program a=
t those
points?  The ability to instantiate any policy?

<Gaurav> Solution MUST cover the ability to accommodate instantiation and
programming of the BGP-EPE policy at Ingress.

How about this:

New>

The solution MUST support the definition of an ingress BGP-EPE policy at
either the ingress PE or at the source of the traffic.

(I took =E2=80=9Chost=E2=80=9D out because I assume that a PE in the other =
network is also
a valid place.)

...

P2. The examples in Sections 3.x seem incomplete and inaccurate to me.
Also, the names used don=E2=80=99t match what is specified in
draft-ietf-idr-bgpls-segment-routing-epe.  In general, please be consistent
with the names!  For example:



Section 3.1. (PeerNode SID to D):

=E2=80=9C

   Descriptors:



   o  Node Descriptors (BGP router-ID, ASN): 192.0.2.3, AS1



   o  Peer Descriptors (peer BGP router-ID, peer ASN): 192.0.2.4, AS2



   o  Link Descriptors (IP interface address, neighbor IP address):

      2001:db8:cd::c, 2001:db8:cd::d



   Attributes:



   o  PeerNode SID: 1012

=E2=80=9C



Comments>

- Section 5.1 in draft-ietf-idr-bgpls-segment-routing-epe uses =E2=80=9CLoc=
al Node
Descriptor=E2=80=9D instead of simply =E2=80=9CNode Descriptor=E2=80=9D, an=
d the BGP-LS ID is
missing above.

- s/Peer Descriptors/Remote Node Descriptor

- The Link Descriptor uses the terms =E2=80=9CIPv6 Interface Address=E2=80=
=9D and =E2=80=9CIPv6
Neighbor Address=E2=80=9D=E2=80=A6

- s/Attributes/Link Attribute

 <Gaurav> ACK> Will compare and address in next update.

3.2-3.5 were not updated with the IPv6 names.


...

P4. References:

- Please add a reference for BMP and IPFIX.

- Put the reference to BGP-LS on first mention (and not just way down in
Section 9).

- Replace the reference to RFC3107 with draft-ietf-mpls-rfc3107bis =E2=80=
=93 and it
can be made Informative.

Not all the references were updated, and rfc3107bis is now rfc8277 anyway.

--001a113cf068a8200e055d14fdf8
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" st=
yle=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);mar=
gin:0px;line-height:auto">On October 30, 2017 at 1:53:07 AM, Gaurav Dawra (=
gdawra) (<a href=3D"mailto:gdawra@cisco.com">gdawra@cisco.com</a>) wrote:</=
div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-=
size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div=
 id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13p=
x;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Gaurav:</div><div id=
=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;c=
olor:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloo=
p_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgb=
a(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Hi!=C2=A0 Thanks for taking over =
this document!</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helve=
tica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto=
"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Ari=
al;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">I have=
 some remaining comments below, please take a look.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m start=
ing the IETF Last Call, which will be extended to account for the IETF meet=
ing and the US Holidays.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-fa=
mily:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-h=
eight:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Hel=
vetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:au=
to">Thanks!</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetic=
a,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><=
br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;=
font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Alvaro.</=
div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-=
size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div=
 id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13p=
x;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"b=
loop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:=
rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">...</div><div><blockquote type=
=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span><div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" l=
ink=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Georgia,serif">M2.3. =E2=80=9CThe solu=
tion SHOULD minimize the need for new BGP capabilities at the ingress PEs.=
=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 What is the explicit requirement, that needs the =E2=80=9CS=
HOULD=E2=80=9D, from an interoperability point of view?</span></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Georgi=
a,serif">&lt;Gaurav&gt; At Ingress PE, this requirement covers that there i=
s need for some minimal configuration or protocol extension for Egress Engi=
neering.</span></p></div></div></span></blockquote></div><p>Ok, but (1) the=
 text doesn=E2=80=99t talk about configuration (just capabilities), and (2)=
 I really think that Normative Language should not be used in this case bec=
ause there=E2=80=99s really nothing that can be enforced: =E2=80=9CSHOULD=
=E2=80=9D means that =E2=80=9Cthere may exist valid reasons in particular c=
ircumstances to ignore a particular item=E2=80=9D, so there=E2=80=99s nothi=
ng that can be done if an extension or configuration is justified.=C2=A0 Pl=
ease s/SHOULD/should.</p><p><br></p><div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" cla=
ss=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-st=
yle:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norma=
l;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;w=
ord-spacing:0px"><span><div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C=
1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><sp=
an style=3D"font-family:Georgia,serif">M2.4. =E2=80=9CThe solution MUST acc=
ommodate an ingress BGP-EPE policy at an ingress PE or directly at a source=
 host within the domain.=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CMUST accommodate=E2=80=9D?=
?=C2=A0 What are you looking for?=C2=A0 The ability to program at those poi=
nts?=C2=A0 The ability to instantiate any policy?=C2=A0</span>=C2=A0</p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:G=
eorgia,serif">&lt;Gaurav&gt; Solution MUST cover the ability to accommodate=
 instantiation and programming of the BGP-EPE policy at Ingress.</span></p>=
</div></div></span></blockquote></div><p>How about this:</p><p>New&gt;</p><=
p>The solution MUST support the definition of an ingress BGP-EPE policy at =
either the ingress PE or at the source of the traffic.</p><p>(I took =E2=80=
=9Chost=E2=80=9D out because I assume that a PE in the other network is als=
o a valid place.)</p><div><div><br></div><div>...<br><blockquote type=3D"ci=
te" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;=
font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacin=
g:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:n=
ormal;word-spacing:0px"><span><div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D=
"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al"><span style=3D"font-family:Georgia,serif">P2. The examples in Sections =
3.x seem incomplete and inaccurate to me.=C2=A0 Also, the names used don=E2=
=80=99t match what is specified in draft-ietf-idr-bgpls-segment-routing-epe=
.=C2=A0 In general, please be consistent with the names!=C2=A0 For example:=
</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D=
"font-family:Georgia,serif">=C2=A0</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:Georgia,serif">Section 3.1. (PeerNode SID to D):</span>=
</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Georgia,serif">=E2=80=
=9C</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Georgia,ser=
if">=C2=A0=C2=A0 Descriptors:</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-family:Georgia,serif">=C2=A0</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n style=3D"font-family:Georgia,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Node Descriptors=
 (BGP router-ID, ASN): 192.0.2.3, AS1</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n style=3D"font-family:Georgia,serif">=C2=A0</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><span style=3D"font-family:Georgia,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Peer Desc=
riptors (peer BGP router-ID, peer ASN): 192.0.2.4, AS2</span></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Georgia,serif">=C2=A0</span></p><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Georgia,serif">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 o=C2=A0 Link Descriptors (IP interface address, neighbor IP address):</=
span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Georgia,serif">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2001:db8:cd::c, 2001:db8:cd::d</span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Georgia,serif">=C2=A0</span>=
</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Georgia,serif">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 Attributes:</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-fam=
ily:Georgia,serif">=C2=A0</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:Georgia,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 PeerNode SID: 1012</span></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Georgia,serif">=E2=80=9C=
</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Georgia,serif"=
>=C2=A0</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Georgia=
,serif">Comments&gt;</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:Georgia,serif">- Section 5.1 in draft-ietf-idr-bgpls-segment-routing-=
epe uses =E2=80=9CLocal Node Descriptor=E2=80=9D instead of simply =E2=80=
=9CNode Descriptor=E2=80=9D, and the BGP-LS ID is missing above.</span></p>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Georgia,serif">- s/Peer D=
escriptors/Remote Node Descriptor</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:Georgia,serif">- The Link Descriptor uses the terms =E2=
=80=9CIPv6 Interface Address=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CIPv6 Neighbor Address=E2=
=80=9D=E2=80=A6</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family=
:Georgia,serif">- s/Attributes/Link Attribute</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al"><span style=3D"font-family:Georgia,serif">=C2=A0&lt;Gaurav&gt; ACK&gt; =
Will compare and address in next update.</span></p></div></div></span></blo=
ckquote></div><p>3.2-3.5 were not updated with the IPv6 names.</p><p><br></=
p><p>...</p><div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D=
"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-=
caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span><=
div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><di=
v class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:=
Georgia,serif">P4. References:</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Georgia,serif">- Please add a re=
ference for BMP and IPFIX.</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"=
font-family:Georgia,serif">- Put the reference to BGP-LS on first mention (=
and not just way down in Section 9).</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span=
 style=3D"font-family:Georgia,serif">- Replace the reference to RFC3107 wit=
h draft-ietf-mpls-rfc3107bis =E2=80=93 and it can be made Informative.</spa=
n></p></div></div></span></blockquote></div><p>Not all the references were =
updated, and rfc3107bis is now rfc8277 anyway.</p><br class=3D"Apple-interc=
hange-newline"></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br clas=
s=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div> <div id=3D"bloop_sign_15097150440994=
58048" class=3D"bloop_sign"></div></body></html>

--001a113cf068a8200e055d14fdf8--


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Subject: [spring] Last Call: <draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-central-epe-07.txt> (Segment Routing Centralized BGP Egress Peer Engineering) to Informational RFC
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The IESG has received a request from the Source Packet Routing in Networking
WG (spring) to consider the following document: - 'Segment Routing
Centralized BGP Egress Peer Engineering'
  <draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-central-epe-07.txt> as Informational RFC

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final
comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2017-11-30. Exceptionally, comments may be
sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of
the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

Abstract


   Segment Routing (SR) leverages source routing.  A node steers a
   packet through a controlled set of instructions, called segments, by
   prepending the packet with an SR header.  A segment can represent any
   instruction topological or service-based.  SR allows to enforce a
   flow through any topological path while maintaining per-flow state
   only at the ingress node of the SR domain.

   The Segment Routing architecture can be directly applied to the MPLS
   dataplane with no change on the forwarding plane.  It requires a
   minor extension to the existing link-state routing protocols.

   This document illustrates the application of Segment Routing to solve
   the BGP Egress Peer Engineering (BGP-EPE) requirement.  The SR-based
   BGP-EPE solution allows a centralized (Software Defined Network, SDN)
   controller to program any egress peer policy at ingress border
   routers or at hosts within the domain.





The file can be obtained via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-central-epe/

IESG discussion can be tracked via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-central-epe/ballot/

The following IPR Declarations may be related to this I-D:

   https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2721/
   https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2548/






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References: <BN3PR05MB2706E07694DCE410775C62E0D55C0@BN3PR05MB2706.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <8094D6B0-6704-4A03-A2BB-0E90DF1383F7@gmail.com> <CY1PR05MB2714BE2BFE4C192A26E079C4D55D0@CY1PR05MB2714.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <D621D6BC.D4DC0%acee@cisco.com> <0D73A206-9569-4310-A57C-8766C0EFE5DC@gmail.com> <004401d354a6$713f8950$53be9bf0$@olddog.co.uk>
To: Adrian Farell <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/3A-9zmXPAPRHsKZVsCB7BO7icvs>
Subject: Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100
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Ok. I have to admit the title of the draft threw me off, where it says =
"Traffic Accounting for MPLS Segment Routing Paths=E2=80=9D, while it =
really means =E2=80=9CMechanisms for Traffic Accounting in MPLS Segment =
Routing Paths=E2=80=9D.

Regardless, I agree that the actual statistics could belong in another =
draft from this one, and I would happy to discuss this in Singapore.

Cheers.


> On Nov 3, 2017, at 6:49 PM, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
>=20
> Hi all,
> =20
> This document defines a mechanism that enables the identification of =
SR paths (i.e., end-to-end flows) and so allows counting at a different =
granularity. But it doesn't define specific statistics, nor does it set =
out other uses (such as OAM) for identifying SR paths.
> =20
> I appreciate the enthusiasm for working on new statistics and the YANG =
model augmentation. I hope we can all pitch in and do that. But I think =
that belongs in a separate document from where the path identifier is =
defined.
> =20
> Do you all want to sit down in Singapore and talk through the model =
augmentation.
> =20
> Adrian
> =20
> =20
> From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mahesh =
Jethanandani
> Sent: 03 November 2017 12:42
> To: Acee Lindem (acee)
> Cc: spring@ietf.org; Adrian Farrel; Shraddha Hegde
> Subject: Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100
> =20
> I would suggest that the draft define the augmentation of the SR yang =
model. Operationally, defining the statistics without defining how they =
can be retrieved does not make sense.=20
>=20
> Mahesh Jethanandani=20
> mjethanandani@gmail.com <mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com>
>=20
> On Nov 3, 2017, at 5:51 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com =
<mailto:acee@cisco.com>> wrote:
>=20
>> Hi Shraddha,=20
>> =20
>> If your SR traffic statistics draft progresses, the =
ietf-segment-routing model would need to be augmented. I don=E2=80=99t =
see having the YANG model augmentations as a prerequisite.=20
>> =20
>> Thanks,
>> Acee=20
>> =20
>> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Shraddha Hegde =
<shraddha@juniper.net <mailto:shraddha@juniper.net>>
>> Date: Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 11:53 PM
>> To: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com =
<mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com>>
>> Cc: "spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>" <spring@ietf.org =
<mailto:spring@ietf.org>>, Adrian Farrel <afarrel@juniper.net =
<mailto:afarrel@juniper.net>>
>> Subject: Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100
>> =20
>>> Mahesh,
>>> =20
>>> I have only seen =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-sr-yang =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-sr-yang> for YANG =
and it does not have
>>> Anything related to traffic statistics counters AFAIK.
>>> Is there any other model that I am not aware of?
>>> =20
>>> Rgds
>>> Shraddha
>>> =C2=A0 <>
>>> From: Mahesh Jethanandani [mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com =
<mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com>]=20
>>> Sent: Friday, November 3, 2017 8:53 AM
>>> To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net =
<mailto:shraddha@juniper.net>>
>>> Cc: spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>; Adrian Farrel =
<afarrel@juniper.net <mailto:afarrel@juniper.net>>
>>> Subject: Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100
>>> =20
>>> Shraddha,
>>> =20
>>> Could this traffic accounting format be represented as a YANG =
module? If so, can it be part of an existing SR YANG module or would you =
define a new model?
>>> =20
>>>> On Nov 3, 2017, at 12:14 AM, Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net =
<mailto:shraddha@juniper.net>> wrote:
>>>> =20
>>>> Chairs,
>>>> =20
>>>> I would like to request a 10 min slot to present the below draft.
>>>> =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-p=
aths-01 =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm=
l_draft-2Dhegde-2Dspring-2Dtraffic-2Daccounting-2Dfor-2Dsr-2Dpaths-2D01&d=3D=
DwMFAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DNyjLsr7JA7mvpCJ=
a0YmPdVKcmMXJ31bpbBaNqzCNrng&m=3D-qbSPtOSkJdMwB1l9hkiqa9-N3yK1guGZ2mpiIW2x=
Tw&s=3D0T_gwWUhvIuteydQEocfAwWi4FkB-D4Xzz500OjQX5Q&e=3D>
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Shraddha
>>>> =20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> spring mailing list
>>>> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_spring&d=3DDwMFAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWz=
oCI&r=3DNyjLsr7JA7mvpCJa0YmPdVKcmMXJ31bpbBaNqzCNrng&m=3D-qbSPtOSkJdMwB1l9h=
kiqa9-N3yK1guGZ2mpiIW2xTw&s=3DeF-gCphLyrNGcGxX4dv7nZ17v70Fikym6wj_kqW37IY&=
e=3D>
>>> =20
>>> Mahesh Jethanandani
>>> mjethanandani@gmail.com <mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com>
Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D"">Ok. I have =
to admit the title of the draft threw me off, where it says "<span =
style=3D"font-size: 1em; orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D"">Traffic =
Accounting for MPLS Segment Routing Paths</span><span style=3D"orphans: =
2; widows: 2;" class=3D"">=E2=80=9D</span><span style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 1em;" class=3D"">, =
while it really means&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=9CMechanisms for Traffic =
Accounting in MPLS Segment Routing Paths=E2=80=9D.</span></div><div =
style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D""><span style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"orphans: =
2; widows: 2;" class=3D""><span style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;" =
class=3D"">Regardless, I agree that the actual statistics could belong =
in another draft from this one, and I would happy to&nbsp;discuss this =
in Singapore.</span></div><div style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;" =
class=3D"">Cheers.</span></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 3, 2017, at 6:49 PM, Adrian Farrel &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" class=3D"">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Hi all,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">This document defines a =
mechanism that enables the identification of SR paths (i.e., end-to-end =
flows) and so allows counting at a different granularity. But it doesn't =
define specific statistics, nor does it set out other uses (such as OAM) =
for identifying SR paths.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I appreciate the =
enthusiasm for working on new statistics and the YANG model =
augmentation. I hope we can all pitch in and do that. But I think that =
belongs in a separate document from where the path identifier is =
defined.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Do you all want to sit =
down in Singapore and talk through the model augmentation.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Adrian<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-color: blue; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>spring [<a =
href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Mahesh =
Jethanandani<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>03 November 2017 12:42<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Acee Lindem (acee)<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" class=3D"">spring@ietf.org</a>; Adrian =
Farrel; Shraddha Hegde<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [spring] Slot request =
for IETF 100<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">I =
would suggest that the draft define the augmentation of the SR yang =
model. Operationally, defining the statistics without defining how they =
can be retrieved does not make sense.&nbsp;<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Mahesh Jethanandani&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span class=3D""><br class=3D"">On=
 Nov 3, 2017, at 5:51 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:acee@cisco.com" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">acee@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">Hi =
Shraddha,&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">If your SR traffic =
statistics draft progresses, the ietf-segment-routing model would need =
to be augmented. I don=E2=80=99t see having the YANG model augmentations =
as a prerequisite.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">Thanks,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">Acee&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: =
1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Shraddha Hegde =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">shraddha@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Thursday, November 2, =
2017 at 11:53 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Mahesh Jethanandani =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br=
 class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"<a =
href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">spring@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Adrian Farrel &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:afarrel@juniper.net" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">afarrel@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [spring] Slot =
request for IETF 100<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><blockquote =
id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); =
border-left-width: 4.5pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt; margin-left: 3.75pt; =
margin-right: 0cm;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Mahesh,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I have only seen<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-sr-yang" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-sr-yang</a><=
span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>for YANG and it does =
not have</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Anything related to =
traffic statistics counters AFAIK.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Is there any =
other model that I am not aware of?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Rgds</span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Shraddha</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><a =
name=3D"_MailEndCompose" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></a><span class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></span></div><span =
class=3D""></span><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none =
none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; =
padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mahesh Jethanandani [<a =
href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Friday, November 3, 2017 =
8:53 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Shraddha Hegde &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">shraddha@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">spring@ietf.org</a>; Adrian Farrel &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:afarrel@juniper.net" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">afarrel@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [spring] Slot request =
for IETF 100</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Shraddha,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">Could this traffic accounting format be represented as a YANG =
module? If so, can it be part of an existing SR YANG module or would you =
define a new model?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">On Nov 3, 2017, at 12:14 AM, =
Shraddha Hegde &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">shraddha@juniper.net</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Chairs,</span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I would like to request a =
10 min slot to present the below draft.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_draft-2Dhegde-2Dspring-2Dtraffic-2Daccounting-2Dfor-2Dsr-2Dpaths-=
2D01&amp;d=3DDwMFAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&am=
p;r=3DNyjLsr7JA7mvpCJa0YmPdVKcmMXJ31bpbBaNqzCNrng&amp;m=3D-qbSPtOSkJdMwB1l=
9hkiqa9-N3yK1guGZ2mpiIW2xTw&amp;s=3D0T_gwWUhvIuteydQEocfAwWi4FkB-D4Xzz500O=
jQX5Q&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounti=
ng-for-sr-paths-01</span></a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Thanks</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Shraddha</span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">spring mailing list<br class=3D""></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">spring@ietf.org</span></a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_spring&amp;d=3DDwMFAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXe=
MK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DNyjLsr7JA7mvpCJa0YmPdVKcmMXJ31bpbBaNqzCNrng&amp=
;m=3D-qbSPtOSkJdMwB1l9hkiqa9-N3yK1guGZ2mpiIW2xTw&amp;s=3DeF-gCphLyrNGcGxX4=
dv7nZ17v70Fikym6wj_kqW37IY&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></blockquote></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Mahesh =
Jethanandani<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a></span></div></div></div></div></div=
></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></di=
v><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Mahesh Jethanandani</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a></div>

</div>
<br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: "Roberta Maglione (robmgl)" <robmgl@cisco.com>
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
CC: Adrian Farrel <afarrel@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: Slot request for IETF 100
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Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 17:55:31 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100
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Hello Shraddha,
what's the difference between the SR-Path-Identifier specified in your draf=
t and the Binding Segment defined in the Segment Routing Architecture draft=
?

Thanks
Roberta

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Shraddha Hegde
Sent: Thursday, November 2, 2017 5:14 PM
To: spring@ietf.org
Cc: Adrian Farrel <afarrel@juniper.net>
Subject: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100

Chairs,

I would like to request a 10 min slot to present the below draft.
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-pa=
ths-01


Thanks
Shraddha


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hello Shraddha,<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">what&#8217;s the diffe=
rence between the SR-Path-Identifier specified in your draft and the Bindin=
g Segment defined in the Segment Routing Architecture
 draft?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thanks<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Roberta<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [mailto:spring-bounces@=
ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Shraddha Hegde<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 2, 2017 5:14 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> spring@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Adrian Farrel &lt;afarrel@juniper.net&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [spring] Slot request for IETF 100<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Chairs,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">I would like to request a 10 min slot to present th=
e below draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-=
spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths-01"><span style=3D"color:#0563C1">ht=
tps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-path=
s-01</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
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</body>
</html>

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From: Yingzhen Qu <yingzhen.qu@huawei.com>
To: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>, Adrian Farell <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
CC: Adrian Farrel <afarrel@juniper.net>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>,  "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>, Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100
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Hi,

As an author of the SR Yang model, I'd be interested in this discussion in =
Singapore.


Thanks,
Yingzhen
From: Mahesh Jethanandani
To: Adrian Farell<adrian@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>>
Cc: Adrian Farrel<afarrel@juniper.net<mailto:afarrel@juniper.net>>;spring@i=
etf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>;Acee Lindem (acee)<acee@cisco.com<mailto:ac=
ee@cisco.com>>;Shraddha Hegde<shraddha@juniper.net<mailto:shraddha@juniper.=
net>>
Subject: Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100
Time: 2017-11-03 10:03:55

Ok. I have to admit the title of the draft threw me off, where it says "Tra=
ffic Accounting for MPLS Segment Routing Paths=1B$B!I=1B(B, while it really=
 means =1B$B!H=1B(BMechanisms for Traffic Accounting in MPLS Segment Routin=
g Paths=1B$B!I=1B(B.

Regardless, I agree that the actual statistics could belong in another draf=
t from this one, and I would happy to discuss this in Singapore.

Cheers.


On Nov 3, 2017, at 6:49 PM, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adria=
n@olddog.co.uk>> wrote:

Hi all,

This document defines a mechanism that enables the identification of SR pat=
hs (i.e., end-to-end flows) and so allows counting at a different granulari=
ty. But it doesn't define specific statistics, nor does it set out other us=
es (such as OAM) for identifying SR paths.

I appreciate the enthusiasm for working on new statistics and the YANG mode=
l augmentation. I hope we can all pitch in and do that. But I think that be=
longs in a separate document from where the path identifier is defined.

Do you all want to sit down in Singapore and talk through the model augment=
ation.

Adrian


From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mahesh Jethanand=
ani
Sent: 03 November 2017 12:42
To: Acee Lindem (acee)
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>; Adrian Farrel; Shraddha Hegde
Subject: Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100

I would suggest that the draft define the augmentation of the SR yang model=
. Operationally, defining the statistics without defining how they can be r=
etrieved does not make sense.

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com<mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com>

On Nov 3, 2017, at 5:51 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com<mailto:acee@=
cisco.com>> wrote:
Hi Shraddha,

If your SR traffic statistics draft progresses, the ietf-segment-routing mo=
del would need to be augmented. I don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt see having the YANG mode=
l augmentations as a prerequisite.

Thanks,
Acee

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org>> on b=
ehalf of Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net<mailto:shraddha@juniper.net>>
Date: Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 11:53 PM
To: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com<mailto:mjethanandani@gmail=
.com>>
Cc: "spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>" <spring@ietf.org<mailto:sprin=
g@ietf.org>>, Adrian Farrel <afarrel@juniper.net<mailto:afarrel@juniper.net=
>>
Subject: Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100

Mahesh,

I have only seen https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-sr-yang=
 for YANG and it does not have
Anything related to traffic statistics counters AFAIK.
Is there any other model that I am not aware of?

Rgds
Shraddha

From: Mahesh Jethanandani [mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, November 3, 2017 8:53 AM
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net<mailto:shraddha@juniper.net>>
Cc: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>; Adrian Farrel <afarrel@juniper=
.net<mailto:afarrel@juniper.net>>
Subject: Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100

Shraddha,

Could this traffic accounting format be represented as a YANG module? If so=
, can it be part of an existing SR YANG module or would you define a new mo=
del?

On Nov 3, 2017, at 12:14 AM, Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net<mailto:sh=
raddha@juniper.net>> wrote:

Chairs,

I would like to request a 10 min slot to present the below draft.
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-pa=
ths-01<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.or=
g_html_draft-2Dhegde-2Dspring-2Dtraffic-2Daccounting-2Dfor-2Dsr-2Dpaths-2D0=
1&d=3DDwMFAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DNyjLsr7JA7=
mvpCJa0YmPdVKcmMXJ31bpbBaNqzCNrng&m=3D-qbSPtOSkJdMwB1l9hkiqa9-N3yK1guGZ2mpi=
IW2xTw&s=3D0T_gwWUhvIuteydQEocfAwWi4FkB-D4Xzz500OjQX5Q&e=3D>


Thanks
Shraddha

_______________________________________________
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gCphLyrNGcGxX4dv7nZ17v70Fikym6wj_kqW37IY&e=3D>

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com<mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com>

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com<mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com>


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<html>
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<body class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div style=3D""><br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
As an author of the SR Yang model, I'd be interested in this discussion in =
Singapore.
<br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Yingzhen<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B5C=
4DF; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div><b>From: </b>Mahesh Jethanandani</div>
<div><b>To: </b>Adrian Farell&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">adr=
ian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>Cc: </b>Adrian Farrel&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:afarrel@juniper.net">afa=
rrel@juniper.net</a>&gt;;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org=
</a>;Acee Lindem (acee)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acee@cisco.com">acee@cisco.com=
</a>&gt;;Shraddha Hegde&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net">shraddha=
@juniper.net</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100</div>
<div><b>Time: </b>2017-11-03 10:03:55</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"orphans:2; widows:2">Ok. I have to admit the title=
 of the draft threw me off, where it says &quot;<span class=3D"" style=3D"f=
ont-size:1em; orphans:2; widows:2">Traffic Accounting for MPLS Segment Rout=
ing Paths</span><span class=3D"" style=3D"orphans:2; widows:2">=1B$B!I=1B(B=
</span><span class=3D"" style=3D"orphans:2; widows:2"><span class=3D"" styl=
e=3D"font-size:1em">,
 while it really means&nbsp;</span>=1B$B!H=1B(BMechanisms for Traffic Accou=
nting in MPLS Segment Routing Paths=1B$B!I=1B(B.</span></div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"orphans:2; widows:2"><span class=3D"" style=3D"orp=
hans:2; widows:2"><br class=3D"">
</span></div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"orphans:2; widows:2"><span class=3D"" style=3D"orp=
hans:2; widows:2">Regardless, I agree that the actual statistics could belo=
ng in another draft from this one, and I would happy to&nbsp;discuss this i=
n Singapore.</span></div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"orphans:2; widows:2"><span class=3D"" style=3D"orp=
hans:2; widows:2"><br class=3D"">
</span></div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"orphans:2; widows:2"><span class=3D"" style=3D"orp=
hans:2; widows:2">Cheers.</span></div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On Nov 3, 2017, at 6:49 PM, Adrian Farrel &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" class=3D"">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:</di=
v>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica; font-size:12px;=
 font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto=
; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:norma=
l; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; c=
olor:rgb(31,73,125)">Hi all,</span></div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; c=
olor:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span></div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; c=
olor:rgb(31,73,125)">This document defines a mechanism that enables the ide=
ntification of SR paths (i.e., end-to-end flows) and so allows counting at =
a different granularity. But it doesn't
 define specific statistics, nor does it set out other uses (such as OAM) f=
or identifying SR paths.</span></div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; c=
olor:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span></div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; c=
olor:rgb(31,73,125)">I appreciate the enthusiasm for working on new statist=
ics and the YANG model augmentation. I hope we can all pitch in and do that=
. But I think that belongs in a separate
 document from where the path identifier is defined.</span></div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; c=
olor:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span></div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; c=
olor:rgb(31,73,125)">Do you all want to sit down in Singapore and talk thro=
ugh the model augmentation.</span></div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; c=
olor:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span></div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; c=
olor:rgb(31,73,125)">Adrian</span></div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; c=
olor:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span></div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; c=
olor:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span></div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"border-style:none none none solid; border-left-col=
or:blue; border-left-width:1.5pt; padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"border-style:solid none none; border-top-color:rgb=
(181,196,223); border-top-width:1pt; padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:10pt; font=
-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><span class=3D"Appl=
e-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>spring [<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ie=
tf.org" class=3D"">mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span class=3D"Apple-=
converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On
 Behalf Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Mahesh Jet=
hanandani<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>0=
3 November 2017 12:42<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Ace=
e Lindem (acee)<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" class=3D"">spring@ietf.org</a>; Adrian Farr=
el; Shraddha Hegde<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n>Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class=3D"">I would suggest that the draft define the augmentation of =
the SR yang model. Operationally, defining the statistics without defining =
how they can be retrieved does not make sense.&nbsp;<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Mahesh Jethanandani&nbsp;</span></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" class=3D"" styl=
e=3D"color:purple; text-decoration:underline">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a></=
span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size:12pt; font-f=
amily:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class=3D""><br class=3D"">
On Nov 3, 2017, at 5:51 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acee@c=
isco.com" class=3D"" style=3D"color:purple; text-decoration:underline">acee=
@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span></p>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"" type=3D"cite" style=3D"margin-top:5pt; margin-bottom=
:5pt">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class=3D"">Hi Shraddha,&nbsp;</span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class=3D"">If your SR traffic statistics draft progresses, the ietf-s=
egment-routing model would need to be augmented. I don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt see hav=
ing the YANG model augmentations as a prerequisite.&nbsp;</span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class=3D"">Thanks,</span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class=3D"">Acee&nbsp;</span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"border-style:solid none none; border-top-color:rgb=
(181,196,223); border-top-width:1pt; padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<b class=3D""><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif">From:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span=
></b><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" class=3D"" style=
=3D"color:purple; text-decoration:underline">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt=
;
 on behalf of Shraddha Hegde &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net" cl=
ass=3D"" style=3D"color:purple; text-decoration:underline">shraddha@juniper=
.net</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Date:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>T=
hursday, November 2, 2017 at 11:53 PM<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Mah=
esh Jethanandani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" class=3D"" =
style=3D"color:purple; text-decoration:underline">mjethanandani@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>&qu=
ot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" class=3D"" style=3D"color:purple; tex=
t-decoration:underline">spring@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spr=
ing@ietf.org" class=3D"" style=3D"color:purple; text-decoration:underline">=
spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 Adrian Farrel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:afarrel@juniper.net" class=3D"" style=
=3D"color:purple; text-decoration:underline">afarrel@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br=
 class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></=
b>Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100</span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" class=3D"" type=3D"ci=
te" style=3D"border-style:none none none solid; border-left-color:rgb(181,1=
96,223); border-left-width:4.5pt; padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt; margin-left:3.75=
pt; margin-right:0cm">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Mahesh,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" clas=
s=3D""></span></div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=
=3D""></span></div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">I have only seen<span class=3D"Apple-co=
nverted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra=
ft-ietf-spring-sr-yang" class=3D"" style=3D"color:purple; text-decoration:u=
nderline">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-sr-yang</a><sp=
an class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>for
 YANG and it does not have</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""></span></d=
iv>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Anything related to traffic statistics =
counters AFAIK.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""></span></div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Is there any other model that I am not =
aware of?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""></span></div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=
=3D""></span></div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Rgds</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=
=3D""></span></div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Shraddha</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" cla=
ss=3D""></span></div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<a name=3D"_MailEndCompose" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"" styl=
e=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">=
&nbsp;</span></a><span class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""></span></=
span></div>
<span class=3D""></span>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"border-style:solid none none; border-top-color:rgb=
(225,225,225); border-top-width:1pt; padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""=
 style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span class=3D"Ap=
ple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mahesh Jethanandani
 [<a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" class=3D"" style=3D"color:purp=
le; text-decoration:underline">mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com</a>]<span cla=
ss=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>F=
riday, November 3, 2017 8:53 AM<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Shr=
addha Hegde &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net" class=3D"" style=3D=
"color:purple; text-decoration:underline">shraddha@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br c=
lass=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" class=3D"" style=3D"color:purple; text-deco=
ration:underline">spring@ietf.org</a>; Adrian Farrel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
afarrel@juniper.net" class=3D"" style=3D"color:purple; text-decoration:unde=
rline">afarrel@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n>Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=
=3D""></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Shraddha,</span></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Could this traffic accounting format be rep=
resented as a YANG module? If so, can it be part of an existing SR YANG mod=
ule or would you define a new model?</span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div>
<div class=3D"">
<blockquote class=3D"" type=3D"cite" style=3D"margin-top:5pt; margin-bottom=
:5pt">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">On Nov 3, 2017, at 12:14 AM, Shraddha Hegde=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net" class=3D"" style=3D"color:purp=
le; text-decoration:underline">shraddha@juniper.net</a>&gt; wrote:</span></=
div>
</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">Chairs,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">I would like to request a 10 min slot to present the below dr=
aft.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.co=
m/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dhegde-2Dspring-2Dtraffic=
-2Daccounting-2Dfor-2Dsr-2Dpaths-2D01&amp;d=3DDwMFAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6=
Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DNyjLsr7JA7mvpCJa0YmPdVKcmMXJ31bpbBaNq=
zCNrng&amp;m=3D-qbSPtOSkJdMwB1l9hkiqa9-N3yK1guGZ2mpiIW2xTw&amp;s=3D0T_gwWUh=
vIuteydQEocfAwWi4FkB-D4Xzz500OjQX5Q&amp;e=3D" class=3D"" style=3D"color:pur=
ple; text-decoration:underline"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(5,99,193)">https://tools.ietf.org/=
html/draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths-01</span></a></span=
></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
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<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">Thanks</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">Shraddha</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:9pt; font-family:Helveti=
ca,sans-serif">_______________________________________________<br class=3D"=
">
spring mailing list<br class=3D"">
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" c=
lass=3D"" style=3D"color:purple; text-decoration:underline"><span class=3D"=
" style=3D"font-size:9pt; font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">spring@ietf.org=
</span></a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:9pt; f=
ont-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><br class=3D"">
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofp=
oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_spring&amp;d=3D=
DwMFAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DNyjLsr7J=
A7mvpCJa0YmPdVKcmMXJ31bpbBaNqzCNrng&amp;m=3D-qbSPtOSkJdMwB1l9hkiqa9-N3yK1gu=
GZ2mpiIW2xTw&amp;s=3DeF-gCphLyrNGcGxX4dv7nZ17v70Fikym6wj_kqW37IY&amp;e=3D" =
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"" style=3D"font-size:9pt; font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">https://www.ie=
tf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring</span></a></span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Mahesh Jethanandani</span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" =
class=3D"" style=3D"color:purple; text-decoration:underline">mjethanandani@=
gmail.com</a></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Mahesh Jethanandani</div>
<div class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" class=3D"">mjeth=
anandani@gmail.com</a></div>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
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From: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
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Thread-Topic: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100
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From: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
To: "Roberta Maglione (robmgl)" <robmgl@cisco.com>, Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
CC: Adrian Farrel <afarrel@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: Slot request for IETF 100
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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 02:02:57 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100
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Hi Roberta,

IMHO, from path identification point of view, they are similar.  Binding Se=
gment is used to identify a path at the ingress LSR of the path, the Path s=
egment is expected to be used to identify a path at the egress LSR or inter=
mediate LSRs.

In addition, the Binding Segment will be replaced by the specific expanded =
label stack, and they will not be in the label stack at same time. The Path=
 segment proposed in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-traffic=
-accounting-for-sr-paths-01 and https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cheng-spr=
ing-mpls-path-segment-00 will be put together with the segment labels that =
identify the SR path in the label stack, and normally the Path segment labe=
l will be inserted following the last label of the SR path.

Best regards,
Mach

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roberta Maglione=
 (robmgl)
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2017 1:56 AM
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>; spring@ietf.org
Cc: Adrian Farrel <afarrel@juniper.net>
Subject: Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100

Hello Shraddha,
what's the difference between the SR-Path-Identifier specified in your draf=
t and the Binding Segment defined in the Segment Routing Architecture draft=
?

Thanks
Roberta

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Shraddha Hegde
Sent: Thursday, November 2, 2017 5:14 PM
To: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>
Cc: Adrian Farrel <afarrel@juniper.net<mailto:afarrel@juniper.net>>
Subject: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100

Chairs,

I would like to request a 10 min slot to present the below draft.
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-pa=
ths-01


Thanks
Shraddha


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1F497D">Hi Roberta,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1F497D">IMHO,
</span></font><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F=
497D">from path identification point of view, they are similar. &nbsp;Bindi=
ng Segment is used to identify a path at the ingress LSR
 of the path, the Path segment is expected to be used to identify a path at=
 the egress LSR or intermediate LSRs. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1F497D">In addition, the Binding Segment will be replaced by the spe=
cific expanded label stack, and they will not be in
 the label stack at same time. The Path segment proposed in </span></font><=
font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr=
aft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths-01"><font color=3D"#0563c1=
"><span style=3D"color:#0563C1">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spr=
ing-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths-01</span></font></a>
 and <font color=3D"#1f497d"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><a href=3D"https=
://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cheng-spring-mpls-path-segment-00">https://too=
ls.ietf.org/html/draft-cheng-spring-mpls-path-segment-00</a> will be put to=
gether with the segment labels that identify
 the SR path in the label stack, and normally the Path segment label will b=
e inserted following the last label of the SR path.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1F497D">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1F497D">Mach</span></font><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D=
"Calibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;font-weight:bol=
d">From:</span></font></b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring
 [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">On Be=
half Of </span>
</b>Roberta Maglione (robmgl)<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, November 04,=
 2017 1:56 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Shraddha Hegde &lt;shrad=
dha@juniper.net&gt;; spring@ietf.org<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b> Adrian Farrel &lt;afarre=
l@juniper.net&gt;<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [spring] Slot r=
equest for IETF 100<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hello Shraddha,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">what&#8217;s the difference between the SR-Pa=
th-Identifier specified in your draft and the Binding Segment
 defined in the Segment Routing Architecture draft?<o:p></o:p></span></font=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Roberta<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;font-weight:bol=
d">From:</span></font></b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring
 [<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org=
</a>] <b>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Shraddha Hegde<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, November 2, =
2017 5:14 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring=
@ietf.org">
spring@ietf.org</a><br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b> Adrian Farrel &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:afarrel@juniper.net">afarrel@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> [spring] Slot reque=
st for IETF 100<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Chairs,<o:p></o:p=
></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p>=
</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">I would like to r=
equest a 10 min slot to present the below draft.<o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><a href=3D"https:=
//tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths-01=
"><font color=3D"#0563c1"><span style=3D"color:#0563C1">https://tools.ietf.=
org/html/draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths-01</span></font=
></a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p>=
</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p>=
</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Thanks<o:p></o:p>=
</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Shraddha<o:p></o:=
p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p>=
</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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From: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
To: "Roberta Maglione (robmgl)" <robmgl@cisco.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
CC: Adrian Farrel <afarrel@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: Slot request for IETF 100
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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 03:20:07 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/r5tXjMbspLFP-WOiBm36ZT5LqVo>
Subject: Re: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100
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Hi Roberta,

SR-Path-Identifier is a globally unique value identifying paths in the netw=
ork.
SR-Path-Identifier could be local to a node in which case it is associated =
with a source-SID
To uniquely identify paths on a transit node. SR-Path-Identifiers are not u=
sed for
Forwarding traffic and are inserted only for traffic accounting purposes to=
 uniquely
Identify the paths on a transit.

Binding-SIDs are used to steer traffic into the SR-Policies and are removed=
 from the packet
On the head-end of the SR-Path.

Rgds
Shraddha

From: Roberta Maglione (robmgl) [mailto:robmgl@cisco.com]
Sent: Friday, November 3, 2017 11:26 PM
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>; spring@ietf.org
Cc: Adrian Farrel <afarrel@juniper.net>
Subject: RE: Slot request for IETF 100

Hello Shraddha,
what's the difference between the SR-Path-Identifier specified in your draf=
t and the Binding Segment defined in the Segment Routing Architecture draft=
?

Thanks
Roberta

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Shraddha Hegde
Sent: Thursday, November 2, 2017 5:14 PM
To: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>
Cc: Adrian Farrel <afarrel@juniper.net<mailto:afarrel@juniper.net>>
Subject: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100

Chairs,

I would like to request a 10 min slot to present the below draft.
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-pa=
ths-01<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.or=
g_html_draft-2Dhegde-2Dspring-2Dtraffic-2Daccounting-2Dfor-2Dsr-2Dpaths-2D0=
1&d=3DDwMFAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DNyjLsr7JA7=
mvpCJa0YmPdVKcmMXJ31bpbBaNqzCNrng&m=3DmYMW8cP-MBdcSEwEt7xQ1fNqlxsu7vdNJUzWF=
dqDxGg&s=3DYOq5iSKjrzr3IV2CZIEmHyAk7a8sSaCqdjWUOsJxb_s&e=3D>


Thanks
Shraddha


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hi Roberta,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">SR-Path-Identifier is a globally uniq=
ue value identifying paths in the network.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">SR-Path-Identifier could be local to =
a node in which case it is associated with a source-SID<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">To uniquely identify paths on a trans=
it node. SR-Path-Identifiers are not used for<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Forwarding traffic and are inserted o=
nly for traffic accounting purposes to uniquely<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Identify the paths on a transit.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Binding-SIDs are used to steer traffi=
c into the SR-Policies and are removed from the packet<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">On the head-end of the SR-Path.<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></a></p>
<span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Roberta Maglione (robmgl) [mai=
lto:robmgl@cisco.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 3, 2017 11:26 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Shraddha Hegde &lt;shraddha@juniper.net&gt;; spring@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Adrian Farrel &lt;afarrel@juniper.net&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Slot request for IETF 100<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hello Shraddha,<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">what&#8217;s the diffe=
rence between the SR-Path-Identifier specified in your draft and the Bindin=
g Segment defined in the Segment Routing Architecture
 draft?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thanks<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Roberta<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [<a href=3D"mailto:spri=
ng-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Shraddha Hegde<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 2, 2017 5:14 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Adrian Farrel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:afarrel@juniper.net">afarrel=
@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [spring] Slot request for IETF 100<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Chairs,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">I would like to request a 10 min slot to present th=
e below draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url=
?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dhegde-2Dspring-2Dtraffic-2Daccou=
nting-2Dfor-2Dsr-2Dpaths-2D01&amp;d=3DDwMFAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0Uj=
BXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DNyjLsr7JA7mvpCJa0YmPdVKcmMXJ31bpbBaNqzCNrng&a=
mp;m=3DmYMW8cP-MBdcSEwEt7xQ1fNqlxsu7vdNJUzWFdqDxGg&amp;s=3DYOq5iSKjrzr3IV2C=
ZIEmHyAk7a8sSaCqdjWUOsJxb_s&amp;e=3D"><span style=3D"color:#0563C1">https:/=
/tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths-01<=
/span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_BN3PR05MB2706F76D3669FBD815CA98A7D5500BN3PR05MB2706namp_--


From nobody Mon Nov  6 04:58:42 2017
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From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
To: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: SPRING agenda
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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 12:58:37 +0000
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Dear all,

SPRING agenda has been uploaded: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/m=
aterials/agenda-100-spring/

Agenda is full. We received more slot requests that we could allocate for (=
160 minutes requested vs a 90 minutes meeting). Sorry for this.

Authors (that could not have a slot) are encouraged to use the SPRING maili=
ng list to initiate the discussion on their draft.

Speakers,
- please stick to your allocated time slot which includes the time for disc=
ussion (*)
- consider the usual Checklist for presenting at a SPRING meeting https://t=
rac.ietf.org/trac/spring/wiki/Checklist%20for%20presenting%20at%20a%20SPRIN=
G%20meeting
- send your slides to the chairs no later than 24 hours before the SPRING m=
eeting. Earlier is better to allow the WG to review your presentation in ad=
vance.

(*) draft-bryant-mpls-unified-ip-sr and draft-xu-mpls-unified-source-routin=
g-instruction have a dedicated common time slot to discuss both drafts as t=
he idea is similar (using an IP tunnel between two SR-MPLS segment egress n=
odes). This is to allow both speakers to answers to all questions and equal=
ly contribute to the discussion.

In order to start the meeting on time, we would appreciate two early volunt=
eers for Jabber & minutes. Thanks.

See you in Singapore.

Best regards,
--Bruno, Martin


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From nobody Mon Nov  6 16:28:01 2017
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To: "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
References: <150902848277.24072.5918643353810761226.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <AM5PR0701MB283648DBF2C28B47E054E519E0500@AM5PR0701MB2836.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [v6ops] FW: New Version Notification for draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt
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Hi,

> but this field is, according to [RFC6294], not used in practice.

I don't think it's very useful to cite in 2017 a document
published in 2011 based on realities in 2010 or earlier.
Actually I think you can actually delete the whole phrase;
since the proposal tries to respect RFC6437, it is
irrelevant anyway.

The draft cites RFC2460 but that is obsolete; please cite
RFC8200 instead.

> The use of the other 18 bits is not specified in this document	
> because is out of scope here.  But it should follow [RFC6437].

I think is a slight simplification. What you are saying is 
the 18 bits should be a pseudo-random number (following the
guidance given in 6437 for all 20 bits) and the 2 bits will
have local semantics but will be set to 00 (I assume) for
packets that leave the domain, thus retaining 18 bits
of entropy instead of 20. (Which means there will only
be about 256k possible flow label values, instead of a
million, but that is still plenty of scope for load
balancing.)

Regards
   Brian

On 07/11/2017 04:59, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote:
> If any feedback or comments (preferably constructive), then please have the discussion including SPRING WG in cc
> 
> G/
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org] 
> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 16:35
> To: Giuseppe Fioccola <giuseppe.fioccola@telecomitalia.it>; Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) <gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com>; Muley, Praveen (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <praveen.muley@nokia.com>; Mauro Cociglio <mauro.cociglio@telecomitalia.it>
> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt
> 
> 
> A new version of I-D, draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Giuseppe Fioccola and posted to the IETF repository.
> 
> Name:		draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark
> Revision:	01
> Title:		Using the IPv6 Flow Label for Performance Measurement with Alternate Marking Method in Segment Routing
> Document date:	2017-10-26
> Group:		Individual Submission
> Pages:		8
> URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt
> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark/
> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01
> Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01
> Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01
> 
> Abstract:
>    [RFC6294] makes a survey of Proposed Use Cases for the IPv6 Flow
>    Label.  The IPv6 protocol includes a flow label in every packet
>    header, but this field is, according to [RFC6294], not used in
>    practice.  This document describes how the alternate marking method
>    can be used as the passive performance measurement method in a IPv6
>    domain.
> 
> 
>                                                                                   
> 
> 
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
> 
> The IETF Secretariat
> 
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> 


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Hi Shraddha,
Thanks for the clarification.
So basically if I understand correctly SR-Path-Identifier and Binding sid h=
ave several points in common and few differences:
both of them identify an SR-Path, and both can be either global or local.
The differences between the two are that SR-Path-Identifier is not used for=
 the forwarding and the Binding Sid is removed by the head node, so not car=
ried along the path, but still  semantically they seam to both mean the sam=
e thing: an identifier for the SR path

Regards
Roberta

From: Shraddha Hegde [mailto:shraddha@juniper.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 5, 2017 10:20 PM
To: Roberta Maglione (robmgl) <robmgl@cisco.com>; spring@ietf.org
Cc: Adrian Farrel <afarrel@juniper.net>
Subject: RE: Slot request for IETF 100

Hi Roberta,

SR-Path-Identifier is a globally unique value identifying paths in the netw=
ork.
SR-Path-Identifier could be local to a node in which case it is associated =
with a source-SID
To uniquely identify paths on a transit node. SR-Path-Identifiers are not u=
sed for
Forwarding traffic and are inserted only for traffic accounting purposes to=
 uniquely
Identify the paths on a transit.

Binding-SIDs are used to steer traffic into the SR-Policies and are removed=
 from the packet
On the head-end of the SR-Path.

Rgds
Shraddha

From: Roberta Maglione (robmgl) [mailto:robmgl@cisco.com]
Sent: Friday, November 3, 2017 11:26 PM
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net<mailto:shraddha@juniper.net>>; spr=
ing@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>
Cc: Adrian Farrel <afarrel@juniper.net<mailto:afarrel@juniper.net>>
Subject: RE: Slot request for IETF 100

Hello Shraddha,
what's the difference between the SR-Path-Identifier specified in your draf=
t and the Binding Segment defined in the Segment Routing Architecture draft=
?

Thanks
Roberta

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Shraddha Hegde
Sent: Thursday, November 2, 2017 5:14 PM
To: spring@ietf.org<mailto:spring@ietf.org>
Cc: Adrian Farrel <afarrel@juniper.net<mailto:afarrel@juniper.net>>
Subject: [spring] Slot request for IETF 100

Chairs,

I would like to request a 10 min slot to present the below draft.
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-pa=
ths-01<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.or=
g_html_draft-2Dhegde-2Dspring-2Dtraffic-2Daccounting-2Dfor-2Dsr-2Dpaths-2D0=
1&d=3DDwMFAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DNyjLsr7JA7=
mvpCJa0YmPdVKcmMXJ31bpbBaNqzCNrng&m=3DmYMW8cP-MBdcSEwEt7xQ1fNqlxsu7vdNJUzWF=
dqDxGg&s=3DYOq5iSKjrzr3IV2CZIEmHyAk7a8sSaCqdjWUOsJxb_s&e=3D>


Thanks
Shraddha


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hi Shraddha,<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thanks for the clarifi=
cation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">So basically if I unde=
rstand correctly SR-Path-Identifier and Binding sid have several points in =
common and few differences:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">both of them identify =
an SR-Path, and both can be either global or local.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The differences betwee=
n the two are that SR-Path-Identifier is not used for the forwarding and th=
e Binding Sid is removed by the head node, so not
 carried along the path, but still &nbsp;semantically they seam to both mea=
n the same thing: an identifier for the SR path<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Regards<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Roberta
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Shraddha Hegde [mailto:shraddh=
a@juniper.net]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, November 5, 2017 10:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Roberta Maglione (robmgl) &lt;robmgl@cisco.com&gt;; spring@ietf.=
org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Adrian Farrel &lt;afarrel@juniper.net&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Slot request for IETF 100<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hi Roberta,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">SR-Path-Identifier is a globally uniq=
ue value identifying paths in the network.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">SR-Path-Identifier could be local to =
a node in which case it is associated with a source-SID<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">To uniquely identify paths on a trans=
it node. SR-Path-Identifiers are not used for<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Forwarding traffic and are inserted o=
nly for traffic accounting purposes to uniquely<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Identify the paths on a transit.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Binding-SIDs are used to steer traffi=
c into the SR-Policies and are removed from the packet<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">On the head-end of the SR-Path.<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Rgds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></a></p>
<span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Roberta Maglione (robmgl) [<a =
href=3D"mailto:robmgl@cisco.com">mailto:robmgl@cisco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 3, 2017 11:26 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Shraddha Hegde &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shraddha@juniper.net">shrad=
dha@juniper.net</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Adrian Farrel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:afarrel@juniper.net">afarrel=
@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Slot request for IETF 100<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hello Shraddha,<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">what&#8217;s the diffe=
rence between the SR-Path-Identifier specified in your draft and the Bindin=
g Segment defined in the Segment Routing Architecture
 draft?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thanks<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Roberta<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [<a href=3D"mailto:spri=
ng-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Shraddha Hegde<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 2, 2017 5:14 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Adrian Farrel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:afarrel@juniper.net">afarrel=
@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [spring] Slot request for IETF 100<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Chairs,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">I would like to request a 10 min slot to present th=
e below draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url=
?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dhegde-2Dspring-2Dtraffic-2Daccou=
nting-2Dfor-2Dsr-2Dpaths-2D01&amp;d=3DDwMFAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0Uj=
BXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DNyjLsr7JA7mvpCJa0YmPdVKcmMXJ31bpbBaNqzCNrng&a=
mp;m=3DmYMW8cP-MBdcSEwEt7xQ1fNqlxsu7vdNJUzWFdqDxGg&amp;s=3DYOq5iSKjrzr3IV2C=
ZIEmHyAk7a8sSaCqdjWUOsJxb_s&amp;e=3D"><span style=3D"color:#0563C1">https:/=
/tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths-01<=
/span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Shraddha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 16:15:41 +1100
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To: "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [v6ops] FW: New Version Notification for draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt
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On 7 November 2017 at 02:59, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
<gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com> wrote:
> If any feedback or comments (preferably constructive), then please have the discussion including SPRING WG in cc
>

So this draft, similar to the IPv6 EH insertion draft, doesn't answer
the fundamental question of why.

What technical and engineering reasons justify reusing the flow label
field, contrary to its specification? What alternatives were
considered that don't violate the the flow label specification, and
why are their drawbacks so significant that they justify ignoring the
flow label specification? Use of IPv6 fields can be novel, however the
novelty has to fit within the specifications to ensure
interoperability.

"[RFC6436] and [RFC6437] open the door for IPv6 Flow Label to be used
   in controlled environment,"

I'm sure it doesn't. During the original discussions that resulted in
RFC6437, I suggested the idea of Flow Label domains similar to DSCP
domains. It was ignored for valid reasons. This is the discussion
mentioned in the first paragraph of appendix A in RFC6436.

"A model was discussed in an earlier version of this document which
   defined a notion of 'flow label domain' analogous to a differentiated
   services domain [RFC2474].  This model would have encouraged local
   usage of the flow label as an alternative to any form of generic use,
   but it required complex rules for the behavior of domain boundary
   routers, and proved controversial in discussion."


Here's what the flow label specification RFC says,

"Once set to a non-zero value, the Flow Label is expected to be
   delivered unchanged to the destination node(s).  A forwarding node
   MUST either leave a non-zero flow label value unchanged or change it
   only for compelling operational security reasons as described in
   Section 6.1"

I don't think the use in this draft is a "compelling operational
security reason".

A network can have a number of egress points. To be able to restore
flow label values upon egress, either all of the flow label
restoration state for all in-flight packets' flow label values will
have to be kept synchronised at all of the egress points, or kept
synchronised in accordance with where the routing protocol determines
is the current egress point for the packet.

In this latter case, while in flight, the egress point could change,
meaning the packet's egress path changes, and there then occurs a race
between when the packet reaches the exit point and the flow label
restoration state for that packet reaches that egress point so that it
can be restored.

So are packets going to be held/delayed upon ingress such that they
can never reach the egress point before their original flow label
value information reaches that egress point first? If they're not,
then there is no assurance that the original flow label value can be
restored, and the domain isn't closed anymore. The modified packet
leaves the "closed domain" with the modification unrestored.


"The IPv6 protocol includes a flow label in every packet
   header, but this field is, according to [RFC6294], not used in
   practice."

RFC6294 was published in 2011, 6 years ago. Implementations have
changed since then.

The Linux kernel is setting flow label values per RFC6437 per Tom
Herbert's Linux kernel patch in the order of 2 years ago.

Random flow labels look to be also being set by Mac OS X around the
same time (July 2015) -

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ipv6/current/msg22820.html

Windows was the major hold out - the latest Windows 10 Creater Update
is now setting Flow Labels.

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ipv6/current/msg22820.html


It seems people are starting to believe "closed domains" can be used
to justify modifying packets in flight, in any way they'd like to
modify them. In theory and in specifications, the modifications are
guaranteed to be reversed at egress, in practice, contrary to
specifications, implementations and network operations are not
guaranteed and perfect. The reversal may not occur at egress due to
implementation bugs, partial device failures or operator configuration
error or omission. These sorts of in-flight changes are not
conservative, making them contrary to the Robustness Principle.

As shown by RFC1918 address and route leaks, "closed domains" attached
to the Internet aren't guaranteed to be closed. A closed domain
network can only be truly closed off from the Internet if it is
completely isolated with an air gap.


Regards,
Mark.

> G/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]
> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 16:35
> To: Giuseppe Fioccola <giuseppe.fioccola@telecomitalia.it>; Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) <gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com>; Muley, Praveen (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <praveen.muley@nokia.com>; Mauro Cociglio <mauro.cociglio@telecomitalia.it>
> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Giuseppe Fioccola and posted to the IETF repository.
>
> Name:           draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark
> Revision:       01
> Title:          Using the IPv6 Flow Label for Performance Measurement with Alternate Marking Method in Segment Routing
> Document date:  2017-10-26
> Group:          Individual Submission
> Pages:          8
> URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt
> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark/
> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01
> Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01
> Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01
>
> Abstract:
>    [RFC6294] makes a survey of Proposed Use Cases for the IPv6 Flow
>    Label.  The IPv6 protocol includes a flow label in every packet
>    header, but this field is, according to [RFC6294], not used in
>    practice.  This document describes how the alternate marking method
>    can be used as the passive performance measurement method in a IPv6
>    domain.
>
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 19:03:31 +1100
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To: "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [v6ops] FW: New Version Notification for draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt
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Hi Gunter,

On 7 November 2017 at 17:56, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
<gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com> wrote:
> Hi Mark,
>
> The flow label of the original packet is untouched. It is never manipulat=
ed in this proposal. The flow label that is set in this proposal is done at=
 the SRv6 tunnel-head end which imposes the SRv6 encapsulation header. It i=
s this encapsulation header which has the flow label which is used in this =
draft.
> So basically, it is just the SRv6 tunnel outer encap header which is used=
 for alternate packet marking. And this is set only one time by the origina=
l SRv6 tunnel head-end router (which is the source address of the IPv6 SRv6=
 tunnel...). This outer SRv6 header is removed when the packet exits the SR=
v6 domain, and the original flow label appears again untouched. This does n=
ot break any RFC at all because all because the original flow-label of the =
original IPv6 packet is never touched.
>
> So, in this proposal there is no device which is changing flow-labels at =
all. It is only during the imposing of the SRv6 outer header, that the flow=
 label field is set once for Alternate marking purposes inside the outer SR=
v6 tunnel header.
>
> Hope it clarifies?
>

It does, although it seems to be contrary to quite a lot of the
introduction text:


"The flow label is an immutable field recommended to contain a pseudo-
   random value [RFC6437].  However, in most packets it has the default
   value of zero, although some TCP/IP stacks do set it according to
   [RFC6437].

   [RFC6436] and [RFC6437] open the door for IPv6 Flow Label to be used
   in controlled environment,..."

"Based on these considerations, it is allowed to use the flow label
   field in a managed domain, assuming when a packet leaves the domain,
   the original flow label value MUST be restored."

and the later reference to
"[I-D.voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion]" all seems to be setting
up a case to justify modifying the original packet's flow label value
and then restoring it using the original value that has been somehow
sent or signalled to the network egress.

As you've said, when tunnelling, the original packet and its flow
label value is entirely preserved, so there doesn't need to be any of
the above text. Even the text about hosts not setting the FL value
isn't really necessary, as tunnel end-points, as a function at the
IPv6 layer, are hosts that originate packets, so they can set the FL
value to what ever they like because they're originating the (tunnel)
packet.


I think it might be better to avoid using two of the FL bits to encode
the marking method, as that also deviates from RFC6437 (I seem to
remember we also thought about using some bits in the FL to encode
something during that time, and also abandoned it.)

I'm not across the Alternate Marking Method work, so this might be a
dumb question or suggestion. Within a measurement domain, is there
ever going to be a mix of single and double marking, such that it
needs to be encoded per-packet? If a domain can only support one of
them at any one time, then I think that could be encoded in the
configuration of the SRv6 tunnel end points, rather than encoding it
in a couple of the FL bits.

Also, there is now an IPv6 Performance and Diagnostics Destination
Option which may be a IPv6 conventional way of encoding this marking
or measurement information in the outer IPv6 tunnel header (i.e.
[Outer IPv6 HDR][PDM][Inner/Original IPv6 Packet])

"IPv6 Performance and Diagnostic Metrics (PDM) Destination Option"
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8250

Regards,
Mark.


> G/
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Smith [mailto:markzzzsmith@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2017 06:16
> To: Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) <gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.=
com>
> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org; spring@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] FW: New Version Notification for draft-fioccola-spri=
ng-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt
>
> On 7 November 2017 at 02:59, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) <g=
unter.van_de_velde@nokia.com> wrote:
>> If any feedback or comments (preferably constructive), then please
>> have the discussion including SPRING WG in cc
>>
>
> So this draft, similar to the IPv6 EH insertion draft, doesn't answer the=
 fundamental question of why.
>
> What technical and engineering reasons justify reusing the flow label fie=
ld, contrary to its specification? What alternatives were considered that d=
on't violate the the flow label specification, and why are their drawbacks =
so significant that they justify ignoring the flow label specification? Use=
 of IPv6 fields can be novel, however the novelty has to fit within the spe=
cifications to ensure interoperability.
>
> "[RFC6436] and [RFC6437] open the door for IPv6 Flow Label to be used
>    in controlled environment,"
>
> I'm sure it doesn't. During the original discussions that resulted in RFC=
6437, I suggested the idea of Flow Label domains similar to DSCP domains. I=
t was ignored for valid reasons. This is the discussion mentioned in the fi=
rst paragraph of appendix A in RFC6436.
>
> "A model was discussed in an earlier version of this document which
>    defined a notion of 'flow label domain' analogous to a differentiated
>    services domain [RFC2474].  This model would have encouraged local
>    usage of the flow label as an alternative to any form of generic use,
>    but it required complex rules for the behavior of domain boundary
>    routers, and proved controversial in discussion."
>
>
> Here's what the flow label specification RFC says,
>
> "Once set to a non-zero value, the Flow Label is expected to be
>    delivered unchanged to the destination node(s).  A forwarding node
>    MUST either leave a non-zero flow label value unchanged or change it
>    only for compelling operational security reasons as described in
>    Section 6.1"
>
> I don't think the use in this draft is a "compelling operational security=
 reason".
>
> A network can have a number of egress points. To be able to restore flow =
label values upon egress, either all of the flow label restoration state fo=
r all in-flight packets' flow label values will have to be kept synchronise=
d at all of the egress points, or kept synchronised in accordance with wher=
e the routing protocol determines is the current egress point for the packe=
t.
>
> In this latter case, while in flight, the egress point could change, mean=
ing the packet's egress path changes, and there then occurs a race between =
when the packet reaches the exit point and the flow label restoration state=
 for that packet reaches that egress point so that it can be restored.
>
> So are packets going to be held/delayed upon ingress such that they can n=
ever reach the egress point before their original flow label value informat=
ion reaches that egress point first? If they're not, then there is no assur=
ance that the original flow label value can be restored, and the domain isn=
't closed anymore. The modified packet leaves the "closed domain" with the =
modification unrestored.
>
>
> "The IPv6 protocol includes a flow label in every packet
>    header, but this field is, according to [RFC6294], not used in
>    practice."
>
> RFC6294 was published in 2011, 6 years ago. Implementations have changed =
since then.
>
> The Linux kernel is setting flow label values per RFC6437 per Tom Herbert=
's Linux kernel patch in the order of 2 years ago.
>
> Random flow labels look to be also being set by Mac OS X around the same =
time (July 2015) -
>
> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ipv6/current/msg22820.html
>
> Windows was the major hold out - the latest Windows 10 Creater Update is =
now setting Flow Labels.
>
> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ipv6/current/msg22820.html
>
>
> It seems people are starting to believe "closed domains" can be used to j=
ustify modifying packets in flight, in any way they'd like to modify them. =
In theory and in specifications, the modifications are guaranteed to be rev=
ersed at egress, in practice, contrary to specifications, implementations a=
nd network operations are not guaranteed and perfect. The reversal may not =
occur at egress due to implementation bugs, partial device failures or oper=
ator configuration error or omission. These sorts of in-flight changes are =
not conservative, making them contrary to the Robustness Principle.
>
> As shown by RFC1918 address and route leaks, "closed domains" attached to=
 the Internet aren't guaranteed to be closed. A closed domain network can o=
nly be truly closed off from the Internet if it is completely isolated with=
 an air gap.
>
>
> Regards,
> Mark.
>
>> G/
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]
>> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 16:35
>> To: Giuseppe Fioccola <giuseppe.fioccola@telecomitalia.it>; Van De
>> Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) <gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com>;
>> Muley, Praveen (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <praveen.muley@nokia.com>;
>> Mauro Cociglio <mauro.cociglio@telecomitalia.it>
>> Subject: New Version Notification for
>> draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt
>>
>>
>> A new version of I-D, draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt
>> has been successfully submitted by Giuseppe Fioccola and posted to the I=
ETF repository.
>>
>> Name:           draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark
>> Revision:       01
>> Title:          Using the IPv6 Flow Label for Performance Measurement wi=
th Alternate Marking Method in Segment Routing
>> Document date:  2017-10-26
>> Group:          Individual Submission
>> Pages:          8
>> URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-fioccola-spri=
ng-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt
>> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-fioccola-spring-f=
low-label-alt-mark/
>> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-spring-flow-l=
abel-alt-mark-01
>> Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-fioccola-spr=
ing-flow-label-alt-mark-01
>> Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-fioccola-sprin=
g-flow-label-alt-mark-01
>>
>> Abstract:
>>    [RFC6294] makes a survey of Proposed Use Cases for the IPv6 Flow
>>    Label.  The IPv6 protocol includes a flow label in every packet
>>    header, but this field is, according to [RFC6294], not used in
>>    practice.  This document describes how the alternate marking method
>>    can be used as the passive performance measurement method in a IPv6
>>    domain.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submis=
sion until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>>
>> The IETF Secretariat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> v6ops mailing list
>> v6ops@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


From nobody Tue Nov  7 00:23:45 2017
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From: "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com>
To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] FW: New Version Notification for draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/3MCHRIQsCU_zE3DO0HNKnZ_1rwU>
Subject: Re: [spring] [v6ops] FW: New Version Notification for draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt
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From nobody Tue Nov  7 03:59:26 2017
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To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>, "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com>
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From: Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [v6ops] FW: New Version Notification for draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt
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On 11/07/2017 05:03 AM, Mark Smith wrote:
> Hi Gunter,
> 
> On 7 November 2017 at 17:56, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
> <gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com> wrote:
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> The flow label of the original packet is untouched. It is never manipulated in this proposal. The flow label that is set in this proposal is done at the SRv6 tunnel-head end which imposes the SRv6 encapsulation header. It is this encapsulation header which has the flow label which is used in this draft.
>> So basically, it is just the SRv6 tunnel outer encap header which is used for alternate packet marking. And this is set only one time by the original SRv6 tunnel head-end router (which is the source address of the IPv6 SRv6 tunnel...). This outer SRv6 header is removed when the packet exits the SRv6 domain, and the original flow label appears again untouched. This does not break any RFC at all because all because the original flow-label of the original IPv6 packet is never touched.
>>
>> So, in this proposal there is no device which is changing flow-labels at all. It is only during the imposing of the SRv6 outer header, that the flow label field is set once for Alternate marking purposes inside the outer SRv6 tunnel header.
>>
>> Hope it clarifies?
>>
> 
> It does, although it seems to be contrary to quite a lot of the
> introduction text:
> 
> 
> "The flow label is an immutable field recommended to contain a pseudo-
>    random value [RFC6437].  However, in most packets it has the default
>    value of zero, although some TCP/IP stacks do set it according to
>    [RFC6437].
> 
>    [RFC6436] and [RFC6437] open the door for IPv6 Flow Label to be used
>    in controlled environment,..."
> 
> "Based on these considerations, it is allowed to use the flow label
>    field in a managed domain, assuming when a packet leaves the domain,
>    the original flow label value MUST be restored."

Maybe this comes from the time when SR considered header insertion?
Anyway, I agree that the text should be modified in this respect, since,
as Gunter noted, there's no FL being modified, since it's a new
(encapsulating) packet.

FWIW, I also think that references to header insertion should be
eliminated (including pointers to individual submissions that propose
that), since RFC8200 does not allow it.

Thanks,
-- 
Fernando Gont
e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1




From nobody Tue Nov  7 03:59:47 2017
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On 11/07/2017 05:23 AM, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote:
> Mark,
> 
> Yeah... you may be right... we added the intro part to start the draft because mentioning the construction "using Flow-Label" seems to have toxic email storm effect on email lists around v6. Hence the disclaimers on flow-label usage at the start of the text. Maybe it is wrongly placed and gives the wrong impression indeed... it is for sure not the intent... It is our intent to set flow-label on the outer tunnel header, and this is done by the router which is imposing the IPv6 tunnel outer header, but we are not fiddling on the fly with transit flow-labels at all. This seems not to break any IPv6 rules I think.

My take: Make that as explicit as here, and I bet there will be no need
to discuss further 8fingers crossed :-) ).



> However, as you point out the case of SRv6 EH insert, is a different story and requires a bit more thought. It is possible also, but needs to use the SRv6 Opaque value-containers to carry the original Flow-label across the domain to reconstruct the original flow-label value. Nevertheless, RFC8200 seems rather restrictive on EH insertion, and hence we conveniently assumed that chances are low for it to become reality due to IPv6 specification complexities and we disregarded EH inject.

Same here: If EH insertion is not allowed, it shouldn't even be
mentioned. If eventually it is allowed, a new (possibly updating this
one) doc could address the topic.

Thanks!

Cheers,
-- 
Fernando Gont
e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1




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Subject: Re: [spring] [v6ops] FW: New Version Notification for draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt
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Is there an implicit assumption that ALL traffic in a domain will be 
using SRv6 encapulating headers?

If not, then how will devices know whether they can mark the "ecn bits" 
of the flow label" on a particular packet?

If you are assuming complete deployment, how is that practical for 
operational networks?

Yours,
Joel

On 11/7/17 3:23 AM, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote:
> Mark,
> 
> Yeah... you may be right... we added the intro part to start the draft because mentioning the construction "using Flow-Label" seems to have toxic email storm effect on email lists around v6. Hence the disclaimers on flow-label usage at the start of the text. Maybe it is wrongly placed and gives the wrong impression indeed... it is for sure not the intent... It is our intent to set flow-label on the outer tunnel header, and this is done by the router which is imposing the IPv6 tunnel outer header, but we are not fiddling on the fly with transit flow-labels at all. This seems not to break any IPv6 rules I think.
> 
> However, as you point out the case of SRv6 EH insert, is a different story and requires a bit more thought. It is possible also, but needs to use the SRv6 Opaque value-containers to carry the original Flow-label across the domain to reconstruct the original flow-label value. Nevertheless, RFC8200 seems rather restrictive on EH insertion, and hence we conveniently assumed that chances are low for it to become reality due to IPv6 specification complexities and we disregarded EH inject.
> 
> G/
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Smith [mailto:markzzzsmith@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2017 09:04
> To: Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) <gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com>
> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org; spring@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] FW: New Version Notification for draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt
> 
> Hi Gunter,
> 
> On 7 November 2017 at 17:56, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) <gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com> wrote:
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> The flow label of the original packet is untouched. It is never manipulated in this proposal. The flow label that is set in this proposal is done at the SRv6 tunnel-head end which imposes the SRv6 encapsulation header. It is this encapsulation header which has the flow label which is used in this draft.
>> So basically, it is just the SRv6 tunnel outer encap header which is used for alternate packet marking. And this is set only one time by the original SRv6 tunnel head-end router (which is the source address of the IPv6 SRv6 tunnel...). This outer SRv6 header is removed when the packet exits the SRv6 domain, and the original flow label appears again untouched. This does not break any RFC at all because all because the original flow-label of the original IPv6 packet is never touched.
>>
>> So, in this proposal there is no device which is changing flow-labels at all. It is only during the imposing of the SRv6 outer header, that the flow label field is set once for Alternate marking purposes inside the outer SRv6 tunnel header.
>>
>> Hope it clarifies?
>>
> 
> It does, although it seems to be contrary to quite a lot of the introduction text:
> 
> 
> "The flow label is an immutable field recommended to contain a pseudo-
>     random value [RFC6437].  However, in most packets it has the default
>     value of zero, although some TCP/IP stacks do set it according to
>     [RFC6437].
> 
>     [RFC6436] and [RFC6437] open the door for IPv6 Flow Label to be used
>     in controlled environment,..."
> 
> "Based on these considerations, it is allowed to use the flow label
>     field in a managed domain, assuming when a packet leaves the domain,
>     the original flow label value MUST be restored."
> 
> and the later reference to
> "[I-D.voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion]" all seems to be setting up a case to justify modifying the original packet's flow label value and then restoring it using the original value that has been somehow sent or signalled to the network egress.
> 
> As you've said, when tunnelling, the original packet and its flow label value is entirely preserved, so there doesn't need to be any of the above text. Even the text about hosts not setting the FL value isn't really necessary, as tunnel end-points, as a function at the
> IPv6 layer, are hosts that originate packets, so they can set the FL value to what ever they like because they're originating the (tunnel) packet.
> 
> 
> I think it might be better to avoid using two of the FL bits to encode the marking method, as that also deviates from RFC6437 (I seem to remember we also thought about using some bits in the FL to encode something during that time, and also abandoned it.)
> 
> I'm not across the Alternate Marking Method work, so this might be a dumb question or suggestion. Within a measurement domain, is there ever going to be a mix of single and double marking, such that it needs to be encoded per-packet? If a domain can only support one of them at any one time, then I think that could be encoded in the configuration of the SRv6 tunnel end points, rather than encoding it in a couple of the FL bits.
> 
> Also, there is now an IPv6 Performance and Diagnostics Destination Option which may be a IPv6 conventional way of encoding this marking or measurement information in the outer IPv6 tunnel header (i.e.
> [Outer IPv6 HDR][PDM][Inner/Original IPv6 Packet])
> 
> "IPv6 Performance and Diagnostic Metrics (PDM) Destination Option"
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8250
> 
> Regards,
> Mark.
> 
> 
>> G/
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mark Smith [mailto:markzzzsmith@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2017 06:16
>> To: Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
>> <gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com>
>> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org; spring@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] FW: New Version Notification for
>> draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt
>>
>> On 7 November 2017 at 02:59, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) <gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com> wrote:
>>> If any feedback or comments (preferably constructive), then please
>>> have the discussion including SPRING WG in cc
>>>
>>
>> So this draft, similar to the IPv6 EH insertion draft, doesn't answer the fundamental question of why.
>>
>> What technical and engineering reasons justify reusing the flow label field, contrary to its specification? What alternatives were considered that don't violate the the flow label specification, and why are their drawbacks so significant that they justify ignoring the flow label specification? Use of IPv6 fields can be novel, however the novelty has to fit within the specifications to ensure interoperability.
>>
>> "[RFC6436] and [RFC6437] open the door for IPv6 Flow Label to be used
>>     in controlled environment,"
>>
>> I'm sure it doesn't. During the original discussions that resulted in RFC6437, I suggested the idea of Flow Label domains similar to DSCP domains. It was ignored for valid reasons. This is the discussion mentioned in the first paragraph of appendix A in RFC6436.
>>
>> "A model was discussed in an earlier version of this document which
>>     defined a notion of 'flow label domain' analogous to a differentiated
>>     services domain [RFC2474].  This model would have encouraged local
>>     usage of the flow label as an alternative to any form of generic use,
>>     but it required complex rules for the behavior of domain boundary
>>     routers, and proved controversial in discussion."
>>
>>
>> Here's what the flow label specification RFC says,
>>
>> "Once set to a non-zero value, the Flow Label is expected to be
>>     delivered unchanged to the destination node(s).  A forwarding node
>>     MUST either leave a non-zero flow label value unchanged or change it
>>     only for compelling operational security reasons as described in
>>     Section 6.1"
>>
>> I don't think the use in this draft is a "compelling operational security reason".
>>
>> A network can have a number of egress points. To be able to restore flow label values upon egress, either all of the flow label restoration state for all in-flight packets' flow label values will have to be kept synchronised at all of the egress points, or kept synchronised in accordance with where the routing protocol determines is the current egress point for the packet.
>>
>> In this latter case, while in flight, the egress point could change, meaning the packet's egress path changes, and there then occurs a race between when the packet reaches the exit point and the flow label restoration state for that packet reaches that egress point so that it can be restored.
>>
>> So are packets going to be held/delayed upon ingress such that they can never reach the egress point before their original flow label value information reaches that egress point first? If they're not, then there is no assurance that the original flow label value can be restored, and the domain isn't closed anymore. The modified packet leaves the "closed domain" with the modification unrestored.
>>
>>
>> "The IPv6 protocol includes a flow label in every packet
>>     header, but this field is, according to [RFC6294], not used in
>>     practice."
>>
>> RFC6294 was published in 2011, 6 years ago. Implementations have changed since then.
>>
>> The Linux kernel is setting flow label values per RFC6437 per Tom Herbert's Linux kernel patch in the order of 2 years ago.
>>
>> Random flow labels look to be also being set by Mac OS X around the
>> same time (July 2015) -
>>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ipv6/current/msg22820.html
>>
>> Windows was the major hold out - the latest Windows 10 Creater Update is now setting Flow Labels.
>>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ipv6/current/msg22820.html
>>
>>
>> It seems people are starting to believe "closed domains" can be used to justify modifying packets in flight, in any way they'd like to modify them. In theory and in specifications, the modifications are guaranteed to be reversed at egress, in practice, contrary to specifications, implementations and network operations are not guaranteed and perfect. The reversal may not occur at egress due to implementation bugs, partial device failures or operator configuration error or omission. These sorts of in-flight changes are not conservative, making them contrary to the Robustness Principle.
>>
>> As shown by RFC1918 address and route leaks, "closed domains" attached to the Internet aren't guaranteed to be closed. A closed domain network can only be truly closed off from the Internet if it is completely isolated with an air gap.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mark.
>>
>>> G/
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 16:35
>>> To: Giuseppe Fioccola <giuseppe.fioccola@telecomitalia.it>; Van De
>>> Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) <gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com>;
>>> Muley, Praveen (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <praveen.muley@nokia.com>;
>>> Mauro Cociglio <mauro.cociglio@telecomitalia.it>
>>> Subject: New Version Notification for
>>> draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt
>>>
>>>
>>> A new version of I-D,
>>> draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt
>>> has been successfully submitted by Giuseppe Fioccola and posted to the IETF repository.
>>>
>>> Name:           draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark
>>> Revision:       01
>>> Title:          Using the IPv6 Flow Label for Performance Measurement with Alternate Marking Method in Segment Routing
>>> Document date:  2017-10-26
>>> Group:          Individual Submission
>>> Pages:          8
>>> URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt
>>> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark/
>>> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01
>>> Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01
>>> Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01
>>>
>>> Abstract:
>>>     [RFC6294] makes a survey of Proposed Use Cases for the IPv6 Flow
>>>     Label.  The IPv6 protocol includes a flow label in every packet
>>>     header, but this field is, according to [RFC6294], not used in
>>>     practice.  This document describes how the alternate marking method
>>>     can be used as the passive performance measurement method in a IPv6
>>>     domain.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>>>
>>> The IETF Secretariat
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> v6ops mailing list
>>> v6ops@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> 


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To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com>, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
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Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 16:35:02 +0000
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References: <150902848277.24072.5918643353810761226.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <AM5PR0701MB283648DBF2C28B47E054E519E0500@AM5PR0701MB2836.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <CAO42Z2x5JDmq+9_50-TruuQBDY5fb6sH__JSDYPD30jEYAVrVQ@mail.gmail.com> <AM5PR0701MB28361D2099FCC4A3228C0ED8E0510@AM5PR0701MB2836.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <CAO42Z2zVz0m7dyDUrGV+b4N3_hgsH8_djdWm5RsE-GDZx-uUtA@mail.gmail.com> <AM5PR0701MB28364455C57A0DB52A063933E0510@AM5PR0701MB2836.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <38d33b00-04ee-a3be-a0c3-8377c90458cc@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: [spring] R: [v6ops] FW: New Version Notification for draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt
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Hi Joel,
Thanks for your comments. See my answers inline tagged as [GF].

Best Regards,

Giuseppe

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] Per conto di Joel M. Halpern
Inviato: marted=EC 7 novembre 2017 15:23
A: Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp); Mark Smith
Cc: v6ops@ietf.org; spring@ietf.org
Oggetto: Re: [spring] [v6ops] FW: New Version Notification for draft-fioccol=
a-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt

Is there an implicit assumption that ALL traffic in a domain will be using S=
Rv6 encapulating headers?

[GF]: not only, the document considers also IPv6 tunneled packets.

If not, then how will devices know whether they can mark the "ecn bits" 
of the flow label" on a particular packet?

[GF]: The devices can be instructed on how to select the flow to be monitore=
d. A packet flow can be defined by a set of selection rules used to match a=
 subset of the packets. These rules specify a set of headers fields: Identif=
ication Fields (e.g. TCP 5-tuple). Once the flow has been identified, It can=
 be marked and monitored.

If you are assuming complete deployment, how is that practical for operation=
al networks?

[GF]: Agree, the management aspects of the alternate marking applications ha=
ve to be well defined and we are working on it in a new coming companion dra=
ft for alternate marking foundation document.

Yours,
Joel

On 11/7/17 3:23 AM, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote:
> Mark,
> 
> Yeah... you may be right... we added the intro part to start the draft bec=
ause mentioning the construction "using Flow-Label" seems to have toxic emai=
l storm effect on email lists around v6. Hence the disclaimers on flow-label=
 usage at the start of the text. Maybe it is wrongly placed and gives the wr=
ong impression indeed... it is for sure not the intent... It is our intent t=
o set flow-label on the outer tunnel header, and this is done by the router=
 which is imposing the IPv6 tunnel outer header, but we are not fiddling on=
 the fly with transit flow-labels at all. This seems not to break any IPv6 r=
ules I think.
> 
> However, as you point out the case of SRv6 EH insert, is a different story=
 and requires a bit more thought. It is possible also, but needs to use the=
 SRv6 Opaque value-containers to carry the original Flow-label across the do=
main to reconstruct the original flow-label value. Nevertheless, RFC8200 see=
ms rather restrictive on EH insertion, and hence we conveniently assumed tha=
t chances are low for it to become reality due to IPv6 specification complex=
ities and we disregarded EH inject.
> 
> G/
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Smith [mailto:markzzzsmith@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2017 09:04
> To: Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) 
> <gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com>
> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org; spring@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] FW: New Version Notification for 
> draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt
> 
> Hi Gunter,
> 
> On 7 November 2017 at 17:56, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) <gu=
nter.van_de_velde@nokia.com> wrote:
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> The flow label of the original packet is untouched. It is never manipulat=
ed in this proposal. The flow label that is set in this proposal is done at=
 the SRv6 tunnel-head end which imposes the SRv6 encapsulation header. It is=
 this encapsulation header which has the flow label which is used in this dr=
aft.
>> So basically, it is just the SRv6 tunnel outer encap header which is used=
 for alternate packet marking. And this is set only one time by the original=
 SRv6 tunnel head-end router (which is the source address of the IPv6 SRv6 t=
unnel...). This outer SRv6 header is removed when the packet exits the SRv6=
 domain, and the original flow label appears again untouched. This does not=
 break any RFC at all because all because the original flow-label of the ori=
ginal IPv6 packet is never touched.
>>
>> So, in this proposal there is no device which is changing flow-labels at=
 all. It is only during the imposing of the SRv6 outer header, that the flow=
 label field is set once for Alternate marking purposes inside the outer SRv=
6 tunnel header.
>>
>> Hope it clarifies?
>>
> 
> It does, although it seems to be contrary to quite a lot of the introducti=
on text:
> 
> 
> "The flow label is an immutable field recommended to contain a pseudo-
>     random value [RFC6437].  However, in most packets it has the default
>     value of zero, although some TCP/IP stacks do set it according to
>     [RFC6437].
> 
>     [RFC6436] and [RFC6437] open the door for IPv6 Flow Label to be used
>     in controlled environment,..."
> 
> "Based on these considerations, it is allowed to use the flow label
>     field in a managed domain, assuming when a packet leaves the domain,
>     the original flow label value MUST be restored."
> 
> and the later reference to
> "[I-D.voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion]" all seems to be setting up a=
 case to justify modifying the original packet's flow label value and then r=
estoring it using the original value that has been somehow sent or signalled=
 to the network egress.
> 
> As you've said, when tunnelling, the original packet and its flow 
> label value is entirely preserved, so there doesn't need to be any of 
> the above text. Even the text about hosts not setting the FL value 
> isn't really necessary, as tunnel end-points, as a function at the
> IPv6 layer, are hosts that originate packets, so they can set the FL value=
 to what ever they like because they're originating the (tunnel) packet.
> 
> 
> I think it might be better to avoid using two of the FL bits to encode 
> the marking method, as that also deviates from RFC6437 (I seem to 
> remember we also thought about using some bits in the FL to encode 
> something during that time, and also abandoned it.)
> 
> I'm not across the Alternate Marking Method work, so this might be a dumb=
 question or suggestion. Within a measurement domain, is there ever going to=
 be a mix of single and double marking, such that it needs to be encoded per=
-packet? If a domain can only support one of them at any one time, then I th=
ink that could be encoded in the configuration of the SRv6 tunnel end points=
, rather than encoding it in a couple of the FL bits.
> 
> Also, there is now an IPv6 Performance and Diagnostics Destination Option=
 which may be a IPv6 conventional way of encoding this marking or measuremen=
t information in the outer IPv6 tunnel header (i.e.
> [Outer IPv6 HDR][PDM][Inner/Original IPv6 Packet])
> 
> "IPv6 Performance and Diagnostic Metrics (PDM) Destination Option"
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8250
> 
> Regards,
> Mark.
> 
> 
>> G/
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mark Smith [mailto:markzzzsmith@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2017 06:16
>> To: Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) 
>> <gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com>
>> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org; spring@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] FW: New Version Notification for 
>> draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt
>>
>> On 7 November 2017 at 02:59, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) <g=
unter.van_de_velde@nokia.com> wrote:
>>> If any feedback or comments (preferably constructive), then please 
>>> have the discussion including SPRING WG in cc
>>>
>>
>> So this draft, similar to the IPv6 EH insertion draft, doesn't answer the=
 fundamental question of why.
>>
>> What technical and engineering reasons justify reusing the flow label fie=
ld, contrary to its specification? What alternatives were considered that do=
n't violate the the flow label specification, and why are their drawbacks so=
 significant that they justify ignoring the flow label specification? Use of=
 IPv6 fields can be novel, however the novelty has to fit within the specifi=
cations to ensure interoperability.
>>
>> "[RFC6436] and [RFC6437] open the door for IPv6 Flow Label to be used
>>     in controlled environment,"
>>
>> I'm sure it doesn't. During the original discussions that resulted in RFC=
6437, I suggested the idea of Flow Label domains similar to DSCP domains. It=
 was ignored for valid reasons. This is the discussion mentioned in the firs=
t paragraph of appendix A in RFC6436.
>>
>> "A model was discussed in an earlier version of this document which
>>     defined a notion of 'flow label domain' analogous to a differentiated
>>     services domain [RFC2474].  This model would have encouraged local
>>     usage of the flow label as an alternative to any form of generic use,
>>     but it required complex rules for the behavior of domain boundary
>>     routers, and proved controversial in discussion."
>>
>>
>> Here's what the flow label specification RFC says,
>>
>> "Once set to a non-zero value, the Flow Label is expected to be
>>     delivered unchanged to the destination node(s).  A forwarding node
>>     MUST either leave a non-zero flow label value unchanged or change it
>>     only for compelling operational security reasons as described in
>>     Section 6.1"
>>
>> I don't think the use in this draft is a "compelling operational security=
 reason".
>>
>> A network can have a number of egress points. To be able to restore flow=
 label values upon egress, either all of the flow label restoration state fo=
r all in-flight packets' flow label values will have to be kept synchronised=
 at all of the egress points, or kept synchronised in accordance with where=
 the routing protocol determines is the current egress point for the packet.
>>
>> In this latter case, while in flight, the egress point could change, mean=
ing the packet's egress path changes, and there then occurs a race between w=
hen the packet reaches the exit point and the flow label restoration state f=
or that packet reaches that egress point so that it can be restored.
>>
>> So are packets going to be held/delayed upon ingress such that they can n=
ever reach the egress point before their original flow label value informati=
on reaches that egress point first? If they're not, then there is no assuran=
ce that the original flow label value can be restored, and the domain isn't=
 closed anymore. The modified packet leaves the "closed domain" with the mod=
ification unrestored.
>>
>>
>> "The IPv6 protocol includes a flow label in every packet
>>     header, but this field is, according to [RFC6294], not used in
>>     practice."
>>
>> RFC6294 was published in 2011, 6 years ago. Implementations have changed=
 since then.
>>
>> The Linux kernel is setting flow label values per RFC6437 per Tom Herbert=
's Linux kernel patch in the order of 2 years ago.
>>
>> Random flow labels look to be also being set by Mac OS X around the 
>> same time (July 2015) -
>>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ipv6/current/msg22820.html
>>
>> Windows was the major hold out - the latest Windows 10 Creater Update is=
 now setting Flow Labels.
>>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ipv6/current/msg22820.html
>>
>>
>> It seems people are starting to believe "closed domains" can be used to j=
ustify modifying packets in flight, in any way they'd like to modify them. I=
n theory and in specifications, the modifications are guaranteed to be rever=
sed at egress, in practice, contrary to specifications, implementations and=
 network operations are not guaranteed and perfect. The reversal may not occ=
ur at egress due to implementation bugs, partial device failures or operator=
 configuration error or omission. These sorts of in-flight changes are not c=
onservative, making them contrary to the Robustness Principle.
>>
>> As shown by RFC1918 address and route leaks, "closed domains" attached to=
 the Internet aren't guaranteed to be closed. A closed domain network can on=
ly be truly closed off from the Internet if it is completely isolated with a=
n air gap.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mark.
>>
>>> G/
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2017 16:35
>>> To: Giuseppe Fioccola <giuseppe.fioccola@telecomitalia.it>; Van De 
>>> Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) <gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com>; 
>>> Muley, Praveen (Nokia - US/Mountain View) <praveen.muley@nokia.com>; 
>>> Mauro Cociglio <mauro.cociglio@telecomitalia.it>
>>> Subject: New Version Notification for 
>>> draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt
>>>
>>>
>>> A new version of I-D,
>>> draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt
>>> has been successfully submitted by Giuseppe Fioccola and posted to the I=
ETF repository.
>>>
>>> Name:           draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark
>>> Revision:       01
>>> Title:          Using the IPv6 Flow Label for Performance Measurement wi=
th Alternate Marking Method in Segment Routing
>>> Document date:  2017-10-26
>>> Group:          Individual Submission
>>> Pages:          8
>>> URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-fioccola-spri=
ng-flow-label-alt-mark-01.txt
>>> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-fioccola-spring-f=
low-label-alt-mark/
>>> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-spring-flow-l=
abel-alt-mark-01
>>> Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-fioccola-spr=
ing-flow-label-alt-mark-01
>>> Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-fioccola-sprin=
g-flow-label-alt-mark-01
>>>
>>> Abstract:
>>>     [RFC6294] makes a survey of Proposed Use Cases for the IPv6 Flow
>>>     Label.  The IPv6 protocol includes a flow label in every packet
>>>     header, but this field is, according to [RFC6294], not used in
>>>     practice.  This document describes how the alternate marking method
>>>     can be used as the passive performance measurement method in a IPv6
>>>     domain.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submis=
sion until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>>>
>>> The IETF Secretariat
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> v6ops mailing list
>>> v6ops@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> 

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From nobody Fri Nov 10 15:25:56 2017
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From: Brian Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Reviewer: Brian Carpenter
Review result: Ready

Gen-ART telechat review of draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-11

I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area
Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please wait for direction from your
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<http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/area/gen/trac/wiki/GenArtfaq>.

Document:  draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-11.txt
Reviewer: Brian Carpenter
Review Date: 2017-11-11
IETF LC End Date: 2017-05-04
IESG Telechat date: 2017-12-14

Summary: Ready
--------

Comment:
--------

When I reviewed this for Last Call, I had two general concerns:
1) Is it useful to publish use cases now, at the end of
protocol development?
2) The AD review dated 2017-04-20 pointed out that the
document should be historically consistent.

I'm going to assume that since the AD is bringing the draft
to the IESG, he's now happy on these two points.

Minor issue:
------------

I originally commented that Section 3 doesn't actually mention
any specific requirements for Spring. In conversation with
Stefano:

>> Right, but you don't state any *requirements* for SPRING that result from this case,
>> except the very general statement before section 3.1. Maybe that does translate
>> into specific requirements, but I don't see how.

> the generic requirement is the ability to instantiate source routed paths.
> These source routed paths, in the framework of this draft, are for LFAs.

I still think that Section 3 doesn't identify this requirement.
Maybe it's obvious to one skilled in the art, however. So
I'm going to say "Ready".



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From: "Kamran Raza (skraza)" <skraza@cisco.com>
To: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org" <draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 10:08:39 +0800
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To: spring@ietf.org
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Subject: [spring] BFD in Segment Routed networks with MPLS data plane
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Dear SPRING WG,
the draft-mirsky-spring-bfd
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd/> will be
presented today at MPLS WG meeting (Afternoon Session I). We welcome your
participation, comments, questions and suggestions at the mike and on the
mailing list (please address to both SPRING and MPLS WGs).

Regards,
Greg

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear SPRING WG,<div>the=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracke=
r.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd/">draft-mirsky-spring-bfd</a>=C2=A0w=
ill be presented today at MPLS WG meeting (Afternoon Session I). We welcome=
 your participation, comments, questions and suggestions at the mike and on=
 the mailing list (please address to both SPRING and MPLS WGs).</div><div><=
br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div>

--f403045f84389e6a7c055de7ddcd--


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Dear all,

2 friendly reminders:

> - send your slides to the chairs no later than 24 hours before the SPRING=
 meeting. Earlier is
 > better to allow the WG to review your presentation in advance.

> In order to start the meeting on time, we would appreciate two early volu=
nteers for Jabber &
 > minutes.

Thanks
Regards,
--Bruno.

 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of bruno.decraen=
e@orange.com
 > Sent: Monday, November 06, 2017 8:59 PM
 > To: spring@ietf.org
 > Subject: [spring] SPRING agenda
 >=20
 > Dear all,
 >=20
 > SPRING agenda has been uploaded: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/10=
0/materials/agenda-
 > 100-spring/
 >=20
 > Agenda is full. We received more slot requests that we could allocate fo=
r (160 minutes requested
 > vs a 90 minutes meeting). Sorry for this.
 >=20
 > Authors (that could not have a slot) are encouraged to use the SPRING ma=
iling list to initiate the
 > discussion on their draft.
 >=20
 > Speakers,
 > - please stick to your allocated time slot which includes the time for d=
iscussion (*)
 > - consider the usual Checklist for presenting at a SPRING meeting
 > https://trac.ietf.org/trac/spring/wiki/Checklist%20for%20presenting%20at=
%20a%20SPRING%20m
 > eeting
 > - send your slides to the chairs no later than 24 hours before the SPRIN=
G meeting. Earlier is
 > better to allow the WG to review your presentation in advance.
 >=20
 > (*) draft-bryant-mpls-unified-ip-sr and draft-xu-mpls-unified-source-rou=
ting-instruction have a
 > dedicated common time slot to discuss both drafts as the idea is similar=
 (using an IP tunnel
 > between two SR-MPLS segment egress nodes). This is to allow both speaker=
s to answers to all
 > questions and equally contribute to the discussion.
 >=20
 > In order to start the meeting on time, we would appreciate two early vol=
unteers for Jabber &
 > minutes. Thanks.
 >=20
 > See you in Singapore.
 >=20
 > Best regards,
 > --Bruno, Martin
 >=20
 >=20
 > ________________________________________________________________________=
_____
 > ____________________________________________
 >=20
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ecu ce message par
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 > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme =
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 >=20
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information that may be
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en modified, changed or
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 > Thank you.
 >=20
 > _______________________________________________
 > spring mailing list
 > spring@ietf.org
 > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

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From: stefano previdi <stefano@previdi.net>
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Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 10:58:35 +0100
Cc: gen-art@ietf.org, draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases.all@ietf.org, spring@ietf.org
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To: Brian Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] Genart telechat review of draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-11
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Hi Brian,

thanks for the comments. See answers below.


> On Nov 11, 2017, at 12:25 AM, Brian Carpenter =
<brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Reviewer: Brian Carpenter
> Review result: Ready
>=20
> Gen-ART telechat review of draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-11
>=20
> I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area
> Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
> by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please wait for direction from your
> document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft.
>=20
> For more information, please see the FAQ at
> <http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/area/gen/trac/wiki/GenArtfaq>.
>=20
> Document:  draft-ietf-spring-resiliency-use-cases-11.txt
> Reviewer: Brian Carpenter
> Review Date: 2017-11-11
> IETF LC End Date: 2017-05-04
> IESG Telechat date: 2017-12-14
>=20
> Summary: Ready
> --------
>=20
> Comment:
> --------
>=20
> When I reviewed this for Last Call, I had two general concerns:
> 1) Is it useful to publish use cases now, at the end of
> protocol development?


this is an old story and you should probably read the archives of the =
spring mailing list ;-)=20

To give you a summarized version of it, I=E2=80=99d say that yes, it =
makes sense to have the use-case properly documented. Resiliency is one =
of the major network operator use-case in segment routing networks and =
vendors are required to provide solutions for it. Having a document =
which can be pointed to and that describes the typical use case and =
requirements helps the reader in understanding how the component of the =
SR architecture address these requirements.


> 2) The AD review dated 2017-04-20 pointed out that the
> document should be historically consistent.
>=20
> I'm going to assume that since the AD is bringing the draft
> to the IESG, he's now happy on these two points.

>=20
> Minor issue:
> ------------
>=20
> I originally commented that Section 3 doesn't actually mention
> any specific requirements for Spring. In conversation with
> Stefano:
>=20
>>> Right, but you don't state any *requirements* for SPRING that result =
from this case,
>>> except the very general statement before section 3.1. Maybe that =
does translate
>>> into specific requirements, but I don't see how.
>=20
>> the generic requirement is the ability to instantiate source routed =
paths.
>> These source routed paths, in the framework of this draft, are for =
LFAs.
>=20
> I still think that Section 3 doesn't identify this requirement.
> Maybe it's obvious to one skilled in the art, however. So
> I'm going to say "Ready=E2=80=9D.


Thanks.
s.


>=20
>=20


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 00:09:38 +0800
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To: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org,  "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, spring@ietf.org
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Subject: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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--089e082ef6c405ab28055e07bba3
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Hi Shraddha,
thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
questions I'd like to discuss:

   - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
   Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two
   special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
   would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
   - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
   course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the
   particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
   propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to
   trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
   out-band to the predefined Collector.
   - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow.
   In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained as
   long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope,
   you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters.
   I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for
   operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of
   the measurement and trigger release of counters.

Regards,
Greg

--089e082ef6c405ab28055e07bba3
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333p=
x">Shraddha,</span><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333px=
">thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these q=
uestions I&#39;d like to discuss:</span></div><div><ul><li>Have you thought=
 of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path Identifier and SR =
Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special purpose labels, on=
e for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have to lose the bit=
 for C flag.<br></li><li>And how you envision to collect the counters along=
 the path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counte=
rs for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition=
 I&#39;d propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose =
label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timest=
amp out-band to the predefined Collector.<br></li><li>And the last, have yo=
u considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Scalability Considerati=
ons you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintained as long as collection of=
 statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, you may have to turn =
off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I think that finer gr=
anularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again, perha=
ps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement and tri=
gger release of counters.</li></ul><div>Regards,</div></div><div>Greg</div>=
</div>

--089e082ef6c405ab28055e07bba3--


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From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 18:23:44 +0000
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From: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 08:15:30 +0800
Cc: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
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To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/Qx917blaeJdBCdFL8IZ23BbzehI>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Zafar

I don=E2=80=99t think you can assert that fails to comply with the SR arch. T=
here is nothing they are doing that cannot be captured in Netflix/IPFIX and S=
R needs to work with IPFIX.

Stewart



> On 16 Nov 2017, at 2:23 am, Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
> =20
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstrac=
t of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-=
segment-routing-13, which states:
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while ma=
intaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D=

> =20
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure a=
lso affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes controller=
 job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the procedure very comp=
lex and unscalable.
> =20
> Thanks
> =20
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
> =20
> =20
> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <gregimirs=
ky@gmail.com>
> Date: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> To: "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-h=
egde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls=
@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> Subject: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc=
ounting-for-sr-paths
> =20
> Hi Shraddha,
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these qu=
estions I'd like to discuss:
> Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path I=
dentifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special pu=
rpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have t=
o lose the bit for C flag.
> And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course, a C=
ontroller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular flow=
 (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd propose to use in-band=
 mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to sen=
d counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefined Co=
llector.
> And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In S=
calability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained as long=
 as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, you m=
ay have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I thin=
k that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operators=
. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the measur=
ement and trigger release of counters.
> Regards,
> Greg
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div></div><div>Zafar</div><div><br></div><=
div>I don=E2=80=99t think you can assert that fails to comply with the SR ar=
ch. There is nothing they are doing that cannot be captured in Netflix/IPFIX=
 and SR needs to work with IPFIX.</div><div><br></div><div>Stewart</div><div=
><br></div><div><br></div><div><br>On 16 Nov 2017, at 2:23 am, Zafar Ali (za=
li) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><=
br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a=
 snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13"=
>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>, which=
 states:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topo=
logical path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to t=
he SR domain.=E2=80=9D
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress n=
odes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It a=
lso makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the=
 procedure very complex and unscalable.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:=
 </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf o=
f Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail=
.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>"<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-p=
aths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</=
a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths=
@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&g=
t;, "<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, "<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org"=
>spring@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffi=
c-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">=
Shraddha,</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank yo=
u for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions I'=
d like to discuss:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path Ide=
ntifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special purp=
ose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have to=
 lose the bit for C flag.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"ms=
o-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0=
 level1 lfo1">
And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course, a Co=
ntroller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular flow (=
SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd propose to use in-band m=
echanism, perhaps another special
 purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with th=
e timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D=
"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;marg=
in-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Sca=
lability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained as long a=
s collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, you may=
 have to turn off/on the collection
 to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow gr=
anularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may b=
e used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.=
<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>


</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>mpls mailing list</span><br><spa=
n><a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a></span><br><span><a href=
=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls">https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/mpls</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>=

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To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
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<body bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div style=3D"">Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficien=
t from my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority ob=
ject. Hence we would have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2 Xuxiaohu<br>
M=A3=BA<a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E=A3=BA<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8-=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=
=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=BF<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B5C=
4DF; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div><b>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Zafar Ali (zali)</div>
<div><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregi=
mirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-=
accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc=
ounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr=
-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.=
org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a=
>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA </b>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels i=
n draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA </b>2017-11-16 02:24:10</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>, whi=
ch states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A1=B0SR allows to enforce a flow through any topolo=
gical path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to th=
e SR domain.=A1=B1
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I fin=
d the procedure very complex and unscalable.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =A1=AD Zafar </p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black">Fro=
m: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black">spring &lt;spring-bounces=
@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;gregimirsky@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.or=
g&quot; &lt;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org&gt;=
, &quot;mpls@ietf.org&quot; &lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;, &quot;spring@ietf.org&qu=
ot; &lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; color:black=
">Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; color:black">thank =
you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions=
 I'd like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">Have you thought of using=
 not one special purpose label for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Iden=
tifier&#43;Source SID cases but request two special purpose labels, one for=
 each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
 would not have to lose the bit for C flag.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0in">And how you envision to collect the counters along t=
he path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters=
 for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier&#43;Source SID). But in additi=
on I'd propose
 to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigge=
r the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to =
the predefined Collector.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:=
0in">And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. =
In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained as=
 long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node
 scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old co=
unters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be usefu=
l for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the e=
nd of the measurement and trigger
 release of counters.</li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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Cc: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not forwarding state.

But no new labels are needed.

See on ingress you apply sr label stack based on some match of the fields
of actual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the very same
fields of the packets on egress and you have path accounting required for
you.

Besides this method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long
as such SFs do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.

cheers,
r.

On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, "Xuxiaohu" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:

> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Zafar Ali (zali)
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A *Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels =
in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A *2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
>

--94eb2c1b4fe82dc69f055e10592d
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not fo=
rwarding state.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">But no new lab=
els are needed.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">See on i=
ngress you apply sr label stack based on some match of the fields of actual=
 packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the very same fields of the=
 packets on egress and you have path accounting required for you.</div><div=
 dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Besides this method also seamless=
ly works over non sr capable SFs as long as such SFs do not mess with the p=
acket content of those tuples.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D=
"auto">cheers,</div><div dir=3D"auto">r.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &quot;Xuxiaohu&qu=
ot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">




<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div>Concur. Although it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from =
my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. H=
ence we would have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu<br>
M=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692=
</a> <br>
E=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu=
@huawei.com</a><br>
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #b5c=
4df;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;padding:8px">
<div><b>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Zafar Ali (zali)</div>
<div><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths=
@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A </b>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose=
 labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A </b>2017-11-16 02:24:10</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_1173985651965020512WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segm=
ent-<wbr>routing-13</a>, which states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any top=
ological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to=
 the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I fin=
d the procedure very complex and unscalable.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar </p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&g=
t; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;, &=
quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&q=
uot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@i=
etf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">Have you thought of using=
 not one special purpose label for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Iden=
tifier+Source SID cases but request two special purpose labels, one for eac=
h case. Then the SR Path Identifier
 would not have to lose the bit for C flag.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0in">And how you envision to collect the counters along t=
he path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters=
 for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I=
&#39;d propose
 to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigge=
r the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to =
the predefined Collector.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:=
0in">And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. =
In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintaine=
d as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node
 scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old co=
unters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be usefu=
l for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the e=
nd of the measurement and trigger
 release of counters.</li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div></div>

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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 10:31:23 +0800
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To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi Robert,
you proposal is similar to idea of Synonymous Labels
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpls-sfl-framework-00>but I'm
afraid it will not scale for SR-MPLS as it require that the whole SR MPLS
stack must consist of such synonymous labels. And that will create state in
the transient nodes in the data plane, IMHO of course.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:26 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not forwarding state.
>
> But no new labels are needed.
>
> See on ingress you apply sr label stack based on some match of the fields
> of actual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the very same
> fields of the packets on egress and you have path accounting required for
> you.
>
> Besides this method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long
> as such SFs do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.
>
> cheers,
> r.
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, "Xuxiaohu" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
>> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my
>> point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object.
>> Hence we would have to make some compromise.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Xiaohu
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
>> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
>> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
>> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=
=91=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=
=E9=83=A8
>> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>>
>> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Zafar Ali (zali)
>> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com=
>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc
>> ounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-
>> for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.org>
>> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A *Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels=
 in
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A *2017-11-16 02:24:10
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
>> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr
>> aft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>>
>> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
>> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=
=E2=80=9D
>>
>>
>>
>> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedur=
e
>> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
>> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
>> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
>> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
>> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
>> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Shraddha,
>>
>> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
>> questions I'd like to discuss:
>>
>>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request t=
wo
>>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifie=
r
>>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for t=
he
>>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose lab=
el, to
>>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is=
 on
>>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush o=
ff
>>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granulari=
ty
>>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be =
used
>>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Greg
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mpls mailing list
>> mpls@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>>
>>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Robert,<div>you proposal is similar to idea of <a href=
=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpls-sfl-framework-00">Synonymou=
s Labels </a>but I&#39;m afraid it will not scale for SR-MPLS as it require=
 that the whole SR MPLS stack must consist of such synonymous labels. And t=
hat will create state in the transient nodes in the data plane, IMHO of cou=
rse.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:=
26 AM, Robert Raszuk <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.=
net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">The architecture is fine. This is a=
ccounting state not forwarding state.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto">But no new labels are needed.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto">See on ingress you apply sr label stack based on some match=
 of the fields of actual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the=
 very same fields of the packets on egress and you have path accounting req=
uired for you.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Besides t=
his method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long as such SF=
s do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.</div><div dir=3D"aut=
o"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">cheers,</div><div dir=3D"auto">r.</div></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=
=3D"h5">On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:x=
uxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
 type=3D"attribution"></div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><di=
v class=3D"h5">




<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div>Concur. Although it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from =
my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. H=
ence we would have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu<br>
M=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692=
</a> <br>
E=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu=
@huawei.com</a><br>
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #b5c=
4df;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;padding:8px">
<div><b>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Zafar Ali (zali)</div>
<div><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">draft-heg<wbr>de-spring-traffic-accounting-<wbr>for-sr-paths=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">mp<wbr>ls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">spring@<wbr>ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A </b>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose=
 labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A </b>2017-11-16 02:24:10</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-7729177119527706386m_1173985651965020512WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr<wbr>aft-ietf-spring-segm=
ent-routin<wbr>g-13</a>, which states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any top=
ological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to=
 the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I fin=
d the procedure very complex and unscalable.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar </p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&g=
t; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>co=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>counting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&gt;, &=
quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&q=
uot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@i=
etf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">Have you thought of using=
 not one special purpose label for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Iden=
tifier+Source SID cases but request two special purpose labels, one for eac=
h case. Then the SR Path Identifier
 would not have to lose the bit for C flag.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0in">And how you envision to collect the counters along t=
he path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters=
 for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I=
&#39;d propose
 to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigge=
r the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to =
the predefined Collector.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:=
0in">And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. =
In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintaine=
d as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node
 scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old co=
unters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be usefu=
l for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the e=
nd of the measurement and trigger
 release of counters.</li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

<br></div></div><span class=3D"">______________________________<wbr>_______=
__________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/mpls</a><br>
<br></span></blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

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Cc: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Greg,

There is zero labels of any sort in my proposal needed. Just basic netflow.

best
r.

On Nov 16, 2017 10:31, "Greg Mirsky" <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Robert,
> you proposal is similar to idea of Synonymous Labels
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpls-sfl-framework-00>but I'm
> afraid it will not scale for SR-MPLS as it require that the whole SR MPLS
> stack must consist of such synonymous labels. And that will create state =
in
> the transient nodes in the data plane, IMHO of course.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:26 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote=
:
>
>> The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not forwarding state.
>>
>> But no new labels are needed.
>>
>> See on ingress you apply sr label stack based on some match of the field=
s
>> of actual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the very same
>> fields of the packets on egress and you have path accounting required fo=
r
>> you.
>>
>> Besides this method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as lon=
g
>> as such SFs do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.
>>
>> cheers,
>> r.
>>
>> On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, "Xuxiaohu" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my
>>> point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object.
>>> Hence we would have to make some compromise.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Xiaohu
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
>>> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
>>> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
>>> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=
=91=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=
=E9=83=A8
>>> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>>>
>>> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Zafar Ali (zali)
>>> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.co=
m>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc
>>> ounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-f
>>> or-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.org>
>>> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A *Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose label=
s in
>>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A *2017-11-16 02:24:10
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
>>> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr
>>> aft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>>>
>>> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
>>> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=
=E2=80=9D
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the
>>> procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also
>>> makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find th=
e
>>> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
>>> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
>>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
>>> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>>> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
>>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Shraddha,
>>>
>>> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
>>> questions I'd like to discuss:
>>>
>>>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both
>>>    SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but reque=
st two
>>>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifi=
er
>>>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>>>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>>>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for =
the
>>>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>>>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose la=
bel, to
>>>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>>>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>>>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>>>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>>>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that i=
s on
>>>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush =
off
>>>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granular=
ity
>>>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be=
 used
>>>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters=
.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Greg
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mpls mailing list
>>> mpls@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>>>
>>>
>

--001a114b2f284c27ff055e10746e
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">Greg,<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">There =
is zero labels of any sort in my proposal needed. Just basic netflow.</div>=
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">best</div><div dir=3D"auto">r=
.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On N=
ov 16, 2017 10:31, &quot;Greg Mirsky&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsk=
y@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Robert,<div>you proposal =
is similar to idea of <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpl=
s-sfl-framework-00" target=3D"_blank">Synonymous Labels </a>but I&#39;m afr=
aid it will not scale for SR-MPLS as it require that the whole SR MPLS stac=
k must consist of such synonymous labels. And that will create state in the=
 transient nodes in the data plane, IMHO of course.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:26 AM, Robert Raszuk <span d=
ir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">rober=
t@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"auto">The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not forwardi=
ng state.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">But no new labels ar=
e needed.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">See on ingress=
 you apply sr label stack based on some match of the fields of actual packe=
t. So all you need is to do accounting on the very same fields of the packe=
ts on egress and you have path accounting required for you.</div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Besides this method also seamlessly w=
orks over non sr capable SFs as long as such SFs do not mess with the packe=
t content of those tuples.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"aut=
o">cheers,</div><div dir=3D"auto">r.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"m_8296646812037645241h5">=
On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@=
huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D=
"attribution"></div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D=
"m_8296646812037645241h5">




<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div>Concur. Although it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from =
my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. H=
ence we would have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu<br>
M=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692=
</a> <br>
E=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu=
@huawei.com</a><br>
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #b5c=
4df;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;padding:8px">
<div><b>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Zafar Ali (zali)</div>
<div><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">draft-heg<wbr>de-spring-traffic-accounting-f<wbr>or-sr-paths=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">mpl<wbr>s@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf<wbr>.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A </b>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose=
 labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A </b>2017-11-16 02:24:10</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_8296646812037645241m_-7729177119527706386m_1173985651965020=
512WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr<wbr>aft-ietf-spring-segm=
ent-routin<wbr>g-13</a>, which states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any top=
ological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to=
 the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I fin=
d the procedure very complex and unscalable.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar </p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&g=
t; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>co=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>counting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&gt;, &=
quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&q=
uot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@i=
etf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">Have you thought of using=
 not one special purpose label for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Iden=
tifier+Source SID cases but request two special purpose labels, one for eac=
h case. Then the SR Path Identifier
 would not have to lose the bit for C flag.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0in">And how you envision to collect the counters along t=
he path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters=
 for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I=
&#39;d propose
 to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigge=
r the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to =
the predefined Collector.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:=
0in">And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. =
In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintaine=
d as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node
 scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old co=
unters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be usefu=
l for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the e=
nd of the measurement and trigger
 release of counters.</li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

<br></div></div><span>______________________________<wbr>_________________<=
br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/mpls</a><br>
<br></span></blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote></div></div>

--001a114b2f284c27ff055e10746e--


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 10:27:41 +0800
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To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
Cc: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Dear All,
I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even they
will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
discussion of what measurement method to use.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:

> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Zafar Ali (zali)
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A *Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels =
in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A *2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>

--94eb2c1aa9b053d16b055e105dee
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear All,<div>I cannot imagine that operators will agree t=
o deploy network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and t=
roubleshoot the network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the ear=
ly adopters but even they will likely request that the OAM toolbox be suffi=
cient to support their operational needs. I see that this work clearly desc=
ribes the problem and why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal=
 nodes is important for efficient network operation. First let&#39;s discus=
s whether the case and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we c=
an continue to discussion of what measurement method to use.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <sp=
an dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
">




<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div>Concur. Although it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from =
my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. H=
ence we would have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu<br>
M=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692=
</a> <br>
E=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu=
@huawei.com</a><br>
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #b5c=
4df;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;padding:8px">
<div><b>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Zafar Ali (zali)</div>
<div><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths=
@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A </b>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose=
 labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A </b>2017-11-16 02:24:10</div>
<br>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<div class=3D"m_1518408483082348852WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segm=
ent-<wbr>routing-13</a>, which states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any top=
ological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to=
 the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I fin=
d the procedure very complex and unscalable.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar </p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&g=
t; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;, &=
quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&q=
uot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@i=
etf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">Have you thought of using=
 not one special purpose label for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Iden=
tifier+Source SID cases but request two special purpose labels, one for eac=
h case. Then the SR Path Identifier
 would not have to lose the bit for C flag.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0in">And how you envision to collect the counters along t=
he path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters=
 for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I=
&#39;d propose
 to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigge=
r the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to =
the predefined Collector.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:=
0in">And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. =
In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintaine=
d as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node
 scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old co=
unters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be usefu=
l for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the e=
nd of the measurement and trigger
 release of counters.</li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--94eb2c1aa9b053d16b055e105dee--


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 10:36:49 +0800
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To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi Robert,
consider number of ACL filters one has to configure just in case the
particular SR flow comes along. Yes, that works but there are other costs
to pay. The proposed approach has some very attractive, IMHO, qualities.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:34 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> Greg,
>
> There is zero labels of any sort in my proposal needed. Just basic netflo=
w.
>
> best
> r.
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 10:31, "Greg Mirsky" <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Robert,
>> you proposal is similar to idea of Synonymous Labels
>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpls-sfl-framework-00>but I'm
>> afraid it will not scale for SR-MPLS as it require that the whole SR MPL=
S
>> stack must consist of such synonymous labels. And that will create state=
 in
>> the transient nodes in the data plane, IMHO of course.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Greg
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:26 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not forwarding state=
.
>>>
>>> But no new labels are needed.
>>>
>>> See on ingress you apply sr label stack based on some match of the
>>> fields of actual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the ver=
y
>>> same fields of the packets on egress and you have path accounting requi=
red
>>> for you.
>>>
>>> Besides this method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as
>>> long as such SFs do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.
>>>
>>> cheers,
>>> r.
>>>
>>> On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, "Xuxiaohu" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my
>>>> point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object.
>>>> Hence we would have to make some compromise.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Xiaohu
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
>>>> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
>>>> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
>>>> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=
=91=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=
=E9=83=A8
>>>> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>>>>
>>>> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Zafar Ali (zali)
>>>> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.c=
om>;
>>>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-heg
>>>> de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org
>>>> >;spring<spring@ietf.org>
>>>> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A *Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labe=
ls in
>>>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>>> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A *2017-11-16 02:24:10
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
>>>> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr
>>>> aft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>>>>
>>>> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path whil=
e
>>>> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=
=E2=80=9D
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the
>>>> procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also
>>>> makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find t=
he
>>>> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
>>>> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
>>>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
>>>> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>>>> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
>>>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Shraddha,
>>>>
>>>> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have thes=
e
>>>> questions I'd like to discuss:
>>>>
>>>>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both
>>>>    SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but requ=
est two
>>>>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identif=
ier
>>>>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>>>>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>>>>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for=
 the
>>>>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'=
d
>>>>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose l=
abel, to
>>>>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestam=
p
>>>>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>>>>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>>>>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>>>>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that =
is on
>>>>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush=
 off
>>>>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granula=
rity
>>>>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may b=
e used
>>>>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counter=
s.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Greg
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> mpls mailing list
>>>> mpls@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>>>>
>>>>
>>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Robert,<div>consider number of ACL filters one has to c=
onfigure just in case the particular SR flow comes along. Yes, that works b=
ut there are other costs to pay. The proposed approach has some very attrac=
tive, IMHO, qualities.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</di=
v></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, N=
ov 16, 2017 at 10:34 AM, Robert Raszuk <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">Greg,<div dir=3D"=
auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">There is zero labels of any sort in my pr=
oposal needed. Just basic netflow.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div di=
r=3D"auto">best</div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div di=
r=3D"auto">r.</div></font></span></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"=
h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 16, 20=
17 10:31, &quot;Greg Mirsky&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attri=
bution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Robert,<div>you =
proposal is similar to idea of <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft=
-ietf-mpls-sfl-framework-00" target=3D"_blank">Synonymous Labels </a>but I&=
#39;m afraid it will not scale for SR-MPLS as it require that the whole SR =
MPLS stack must consist of such synonymous labels. And that will create sta=
te in the transient nodes in the data plane, IMHO of course.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:26 AM, Robert Raszu=
k <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_bla=
nk">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x"><div dir=3D"auto">The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not=
 forwarding state.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">But no new =
labels are needed.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">See o=
n ingress you apply sr label stack based on some match of the fields of act=
ual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the very same fields of =
the packets on egress and you have path accounting required for you.</div><=
div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Besides this method also seaml=
essly works over non sr capable SFs as long as such SFs do not mess with th=
e packet content of those tuples.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto">cheers,</div><div dir=3D"auto">r.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"m_1992155412616582=
018m_8296646812037645241h5">On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"></div></div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"m_1992155412616582018m_8296646812037645241h5">




<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div>Concur. Although it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from =
my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. H=
ence we would have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu<br>
M=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692=
</a> <br>
E=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu=
@huawei.com</a><br>
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #b5c=
4df;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;padding:8px">
<div><b>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Zafar Ali (zali)</div>
<div><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">draft-heg<wbr>de-spring-traffic-accounting-f<wbr>or-sr-paths=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">mpl<wbr>s@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf<wbr>.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A </b>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose=
 labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A </b>2017-11-16 02:24:10</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_1992155412616582018m_8296646812037645241m_-7729177119527706=
386m_1173985651965020512WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr<wbr>aft-ietf-spring-segm=
ent-routin<wbr>g-13</a>, which states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any top=
ological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to=
 the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I fin=
d the procedure very complex and unscalable.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar </p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&g=
t; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>co=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>counting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&gt;, &=
quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&q=
uot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@i=
etf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">Have you thought of using=
 not one special purpose label for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Iden=
tifier+Source SID cases but request two special purpose labels, one for eac=
h case. Then the SR Path Identifier
 would not have to lose the bit for C flag.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0in">And how you envision to collect the counters along t=
he path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters=
 for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I=
&#39;d propose
 to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigge=
r the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to =
the predefined Collector.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:=
0in">And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. =
In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintaine=
d as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node
 scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old co=
unters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be usefu=
l for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the e=
nd of the measurement and trigger
 release of counters.</li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

<br></div></div><span>______________________________<wbr>_________________<=
br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/mpls</a><br>
<br></span></blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote></div></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a1141e4b4050614055e107eed--


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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi Robert and all,

  SPRING try to get rid of per flow forwarding status. that's the design
principal for whole network.
  and Shraddha just want to add back per flow Traffic statistics as
request, which will only applied to interested flow.

  if you check the label stack for traffic statistics, that might be get
some processing trouble to handle:
{300|200|100} with another label stack such as {400|300|200|100} on the
same nodes.

  so path id do have it's value if customer want to check specific flow, by
not impact all packet process on the transit router.

Best Regards
Shaowen Ma


On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:26 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not forwarding state.
>
> But no new labels are needed.
>
> See on ingress you apply sr label stack based on some match of the fields
> of actual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the very same
> fields of the packets on egress and you have path accounting required for
> you.
>
> Besides this method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long
> as such SFs do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.
>
> cheers,
> r.
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, "Xuxiaohu" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
>> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my
>> point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object.
>> Hence we would have to make some compromise.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Xiaohu
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
>> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
>> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
>> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=
=91=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=
=E9=83=A8
>> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>>
>> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Zafar Ali (zali)
>> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com=
>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc
>> ounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-
>> for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.org>
>> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A *Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels=
 in
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A *2017-11-16 02:24:10
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
>> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr
>> aft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>>
>> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
>> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=
=E2=80=9D
>>
>>
>>
>> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedur=
e
>> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
>> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
>> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
>> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
>> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
>> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Shraddha,
>>
>> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
>> questions I'd like to discuss:
>>
>>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request t=
wo
>>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifie=
r
>>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for t=
he
>>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose lab=
el, to
>>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is=
 on
>>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush o=
ff
>>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granulari=
ty
>>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be =
used
>>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Greg
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mpls mailing list
>> mpls@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>
>

--94eb2c07077a829566055e1094cd
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Hi Robert and all,<br><br></div>=C2=A0 SPRING tr=
y to get rid of per flow forwarding status. that&#39;s the design principal=
 for whole network. <br></div><div>=C2=A0 and Shraddha just want to add bac=
k per flow Traffic statistics as request, which will only applied to intere=
sted flow. <br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 if you check the label stac=
k for traffic statistics, that might be get some processing trouble to hand=
le:</div><div>{300|200|100} with another label stack such as {400|300|200|1=
00} on the same nodes.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 so path id do =
have it&#39;s value if customer want to check specific flow, by not impact =
all packet process on the transit router. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Bes=
t Regards</div><div>Shaowen Ma=C2=A0 <br></div>=C2=A0 <br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:=
26 AM, Robert Raszuk <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.=
net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">The architecture is fine. This is a=
ccounting state not forwarding state.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto">But no new labels are needed.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto">See on ingress you apply sr label stack based on some match=
 of the fields of actual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the=
 very same fields of the packets on egress and you have path accounting req=
uired for you.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Besides t=
his method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long as such SF=
s do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.</div><div dir=3D"aut=
o"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">cheers,</div><div dir=3D"auto">r.</div></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=
=3D"h5">On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:x=
uxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
 type=3D"attribution"></div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><di=
v class=3D"h5">




<div bgcolor=3D"white" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" lang=3D"EN-US">
<div>Concur. Although it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from =
my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. H=
ence we would have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu<br>
M=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692=
</a> <br>
E=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu=
@huawei.com</a><br>
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #b5c=
4df;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;padding:8px">
<div><b>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Zafar Ali (zali)</div>
<div><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">draft-heg<wbr>de-spring-traffic-accounting-<wbr>for-sr-paths=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">mp<wbr>ls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">spring@<wbr>ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A </b>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose=
 labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A </b>2017-11-16 02:24:10</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_7401593907779805725m_1173985651965020512WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr<wbr>aft-ietf-spring-segm=
ent-routin<wbr>g-13</a>, which states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any top=
ological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to=
 the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I fin=
d the procedure very complex and unscalable.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar </p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&g=
t; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>co=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>counting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&gt;, &=
quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&q=
uot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@i=
etf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">Have you thought of using=
 not one special purpose label for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Iden=
tifier+Source SID cases but request two special purpose labels, one for eac=
h case. Then the SR Path Identifier
 would not have to lose the bit for C flag.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0in">And how you envision to collect the counters along t=
he path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters=
 for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I=
&#39;d propose
 to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigge=
r the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to =
the predefined Collector.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:=
0in">And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. =
In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintaine=
d as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node
 scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old co=
unters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be usefu=
l for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the e=
nd of the measurement and trigger
 release of counters.</li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

<br></div></div><span class=3D"">______________________________<wbr>_______=
__________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/mpls</a><br>
<br></span></blockquote></div></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/spring</a><br=
>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

--94eb2c07077a829566055e1094cd--


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This discussion is about a form of iOAM in SR-MPLS . To your point where in
mpls architecture in general there is provisioning for iOAM ?

And last time I check mpls is still used here and there ;)

Good news is that SRv6 is natively solving this by keeping the SID stacks
intact to the egress.

thx
r.

On Nov 16, 2017 10:36, "Greg Mirsky" <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear All,
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
>> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my
>> point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object.
>> Hence we would have to make some compromise.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Xiaohu
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
>> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
>> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
>> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=
=91=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=
=E9=83=A8
>> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>>
>> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Zafar Ali (zali)
>> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com=
>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc
>> ounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-
>> for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.org>
>> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A *Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels=
 in
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A *2017-11-16 02:24:10
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
>> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr
>> aft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>>
>> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
>> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=
=E2=80=9D
>>
>>
>>
>> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedur=
e
>> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
>> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
>> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
>> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
>> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
>> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Shraddha,
>>
>> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
>> questions I'd like to discuss:
>>
>>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request t=
wo
>>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifie=
r
>>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for t=
he
>>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose lab=
el, to
>>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is=
 on
>>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush o=
ff
>>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granulari=
ty
>>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be =
used
>>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Greg
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
>

--001a114b2f288d3196055e10951a
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">This discussion is about a form of iOAM in SR-MPLS . To y=
our point where in mpls architecture in general there is provisioning for i=
OAM ?<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">And last time I check mp=
ls is still used here and there ;)</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div di=
r=3D"auto">Good news is that SRv6 is natively solving this by keeping the S=
ID stacks intact to the egress.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto">thx</div><div dir=3D"auto">r.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extr=
a"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 16, 2017 10:36, &quot;Greg Mirsky&=
quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"ltr">Dear All,<div>I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deplo=
y network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubles=
hoot the network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adop=
ters but even they will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient t=
o support their operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes t=
he problem and why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes =
is important for efficient network operation. First let&#39;s discuss wheth=
er the case and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can cont=
inue to discussion of what measurement method to use.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxia=
ohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">




<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div>Concur. Although it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from =
my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. H=
ence we would have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu<br>
M=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692=
</a> <br>
E=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu=
@huawei.com</a><br>
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #b5c=
4df;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;padding:8px">
<div><b>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Zafar Ali (zali)</div>
<div><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">draft-heg<wbr>de-spring-traffic-accounting-<wbr>for-sr-paths=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">mp<wbr>ls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">spring@<wbr>ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A </b>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose=
 labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A </b>2017-11-16 02:24:10</div>
<br>
</div><div><div class=3D"m_9004451241199430862h5">
<div>
<div class=3D"m_9004451241199430862m_1518408483082348852WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr<wbr>aft-ietf-spring-segm=
ent-routin<wbr>g-13</a>, which states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any top=
ological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to=
 the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I fin=
d the procedure very complex and unscalable.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar </p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&g=
t; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>co=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>counting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&gt;, &=
quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&q=
uot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@i=
etf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">Have you thought of using=
 not one special purpose label for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Iden=
tifier+Source SID cases but request two special purpose labels, one for eac=
h case. Then the SR Path Identifier
 would not have to lose the bit for C flag.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0in">And how you envision to collect the counters along t=
he path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters=
 for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I=
&#39;d propose
 to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigge=
r the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to =
the predefined Collector.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:=
0in">And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. =
In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintaine=
d as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node
 scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old co=
unters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be usefu=
l for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the e=
nd of the measurement and trigger
 release of counters.</li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div></div>

--001a114b2f288d3196055e10951a--


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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 10:47:13 +0800
From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
CC: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Robert,

=20

HW counters are rather precious resources, but that=E2=80=99s beside the point.

An architecture is not an immutable object, on contrary, a very import prop=
erty of a good architecture is flexibility and agility, ability to adapt whe=
n business need arises. =C2=A0

=20

Keeping semantics aside =E2=80=93 what=E2=80=99s needed, is a metadata (here encoded as=
 a label) that uniquely identifies a path, where FIB lookup would yield an =E2=
=80=9Ccounter hit=E2=80=9D, potentially counter creation if the packet is the first pa=
cket in the flow. Value of the label would be hashed in the counter ID that =
is unique and could be resolved by a management layer into accounting record=
.

=20

Cheers,

Jeff

=20

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Robert Raszuk <robert@r=
aszuk.net>
Date: Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:26
To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
Cc: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mp=
ls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffi=
c-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-path=
s@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

=20

The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not forwarding state.

=20

But no new labels are needed.

=20

See on ingress you apply sr label stack based on some match of the fields o=
f actual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the very same fields=
 of the packets on egress and you have path accounting required for you.

=20

Besides this method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long a=
s such SFs do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.

=20

cheers,

r.

=20

On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, "Xuxiaohu" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:

Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my point =
of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we wo=
uld have to make some compromise.

Best regards,
Xiaohu=20



=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692=20
E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8
Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Zafar Ali (zali)

=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-=
accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.org>

=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-=
traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2017-11-16 02:24:10

=20

Hi,=20

=20

This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract=
 of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-s=
egment-routing-13, which states:

=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while maintaini=
ng per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D=20

=20

In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure a=
lso affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes controller=
 job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the procedure very comp=
lex and unscalable.=20

=20

Thanks

=20

Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar=20

=20

=20

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <gregimirsk=
y@gmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
To: "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-he=
gde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@=
ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acco=
unting-for-sr-paths

=20

Hi Shraddha,=20

thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these que=
stions I'd like to discuss:

=C2=B7  Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Pat=
h Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special=
 purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not ha=
ve to lose the bit for C flag.

=C2=B7  And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course,=
 a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular =
flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd propose to use in-=
band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to=
 send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefine=
d Collector.

=C2=B7  And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. I=
n Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained as l=
ong as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, yo=
u may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I t=
hink that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operat=
ors. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the mea=
surement and trigger release of counters.

Regards,

Greg


_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@=
ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring=20


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--></style></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><di=
v class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Rober=
t,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>=
HW counters are rather precious resources, but that=E2=80=99s beside the point.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>An arch=
itecture is not an immutable object, on contrary, a very import property of =
a good architecture is flexibility and agility, ability to adapt when busine=
ss need arises. =C2=A0<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-size:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fo=
nt-size:14.0pt'>Keeping semantics aside =E2=80=93 what=E2=80=99s needed, is a metadata (=
here encoded as a label) that uniquely identifies a path, where FIB lookup w=
ould yield an =E2=80=9Ccounter hit=E2=80=9D, potentially counter creation if the packet =
is the first packet in the flow. Value of the label would be hashed in the c=
ounter ID that is unique and could be resolved by a management layer into ac=
counting record.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D=
'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Jeff</span><span style=3D'=
font-size:14.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-size:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top=
:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'ma=
rgin-left:.5in'><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>spring &lt;spring-bounces@ietf=
.org&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;robert@raszuk.net&gt;<br><b>Date: </=
b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:26<br><b>To: </b>Xuxiaohu &lt;xuxiaohu@h=
uawei.com&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>Greg Mirsky &lt;gregimirsky@gmail.com&gt;, sprin=
g &lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;, mpls &lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;, &quot;Zafar Ali (zali=
)&quot; &lt;zali@cisco.com&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr=
-paths &lt;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org&gt;<b=
r><b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-=
spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>The architecture is fine. This is acc=
ounting state not forwarding state.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'margin-left:.5in'>But no new labels are needed.<o:p></o:p></p></div><di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>See on ingress you apply sr la=
bel stack based on some match of the fields of actual packet. So all you nee=
d is to do accounting on the very same fields of the packets on egress and y=
ou have path accounting required for you.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>Besides this method also seamlessly works=
 over non sr capable SFs as long as such SFs do not mess with the packet con=
tent of those tuples.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mar=
gin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mar=
gin-left:.5in'>cheers,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'ma=
rgin-left:.5in'>r.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'=
margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin=
-left:.5in'>On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><block=
quote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in=
 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal styl=
e=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:=
.5in'>Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my p=
oint of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence =
we would have to make some compromise.<br><br>Best regards,<br>Xiaohu <br><b=
r><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'margin-lef=
t:.5in;text-align:center'><hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter></div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.=
0pt;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E<=
/span> Xuxiaohu<span style=3D'font-family:"PMingLiU",serif'><br></span>M<span =
style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692=
" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</a> <br>E<span style=3D'font-family:"MS Minc=
ho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xu=
xiaohu@huawei.com</a><br><span style=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=
=E6=A1=88</span>-<span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E7=BD=91</span><span style=
=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98</span><span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",seri=
f'>=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E</span><span style=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91</span><span style=
=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><span style=3D'font-family:"PMin=
gLiU",serif'><br></span>Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Busi=
ness Development Dept<o:p></o:p></p></div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top=
:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in' name=3DAnyOffice-Background-Im=
age><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun'>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Zaf=
ar Ali (zali)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'marg=
in-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt=
'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;draft-h=
egde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-=
spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></=
span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:1=
5.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E4=B8=BB</=
span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun'>=E9=A2=98</span></b>=
<b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span></=
b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5p=
t'>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-=
accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal s=
tyle=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;=
font-family:SimSun'>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> <=
/span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>2017-11-16 02:24:10<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;m=
argin-left:.5in'>Hi, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top=
-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto=
;margin-left:.5in'>This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a sni=
ppet from abstract of SR Architecture document <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.o=
rg/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.=
ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>, which states:<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-=
alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topolo=
gical path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the=
 SR domain.=E2=80=9D <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:a=
uto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margi=
n-left:.5in'>In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the=
 procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also make=
s controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the procedu=
re very complex and unscalable. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso=
-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin=
-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal s=
tyle=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-ma=
rgin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar <o:p></o:p></p></di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:au=
to;margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-marg=
in-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:=
p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0=
in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bot=
tom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'=
>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>spring &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org=
</a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Wednesday, No=
vember 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br><b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-=
spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde=
-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &qu=
ot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&quot; &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quo=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&quot;=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt=
;<br><b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:=
.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-t=
op-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>Hi&nbsp;<span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Shraddha,</span> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin=
-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>thank you for very we=
ll written and thought through draft. I have these questions I'd like to dis=
cuss:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-t=
op-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;=
mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:Symbol'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt =
"Times New Roman"'>&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3DLTR></spa=
n>Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path I=
dentifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special pu=
rpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have =
to lose the bit for C flag.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-marg=
in-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.2=
5in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.=
0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3DLTR><=
/span>And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course=
, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular=
 flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd propose to use in=
-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR t=
o send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefin=
ed Collector.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:aut=
o;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l=
0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-famil=
y:Symbol'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New=
 Roman"'>&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3DLTR></span>And the =
last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Scalability=
 Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained as long as collec=
tion of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, you may have to=
 turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I think that fin=
er granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again, p=
erhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement and =
trigger release of counters.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'ms=
o-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>Regards,<=
o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:=
auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>Greg<o:p></o:p></p></div><=
/div></div></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;marg=
in-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><br>____________________=
___________________________<br>mpls mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:mpls@iet=
f.org">mpls@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/m=
pls" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a><o:p></o:=
p></p></blockquote></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>_=
______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ie=
tf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring <o:p></o:p></p></div></b=
ody></html>

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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 03:47:48 +0100
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Cc: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  spring@ietf.org, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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I am not suggesting checking any label stack.

All info comes from packet behind label stack. Just like it is read on
ingress when/before you apply stack the same can be done on egress where
there is no more stack at all any more.

thx
r.

On Nov 16, 2017 10:43, "ShaoWen Ma" <mashaowen@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Robert and all,

  SPRING try to get rid of per flow forwarding status. that's the design
principal for whole network.
  and Shraddha just want to add back per flow Traffic statistics as
request, which will only applied to interested flow.

  if you check the label stack for traffic statistics, that might be get
some processing trouble to handle:
{300|200|100} with another label stack such as {400|300|200|100} on the
same nodes.

  so path id do have it's value if customer want to check specific flow, by
not impact all packet process on the transit router.

Best Regards
Shaowen Ma


On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:26 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not forwarding state.
>
> But no new labels are needed.
>
> See on ingress you apply sr label stack based on some match of the fields
> of actual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the very same
> fields of the packets on egress and you have path accounting required for
> you.
>
> Besides this method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long
> as such SFs do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.
>
> cheers,
> r.
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, "Xuxiaohu" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
>> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my
>> point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object.
>> Hence we would have to make some compromise.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Xiaohu
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
>> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
>> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
>> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=
=91=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=
=E9=83=A8
>> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>>
>> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Zafar Ali (zali)
>> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com=
>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc
>> ounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-f
>> or-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.org>
>> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A *Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels=
 in
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A *2017-11-16 02:24:10
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
>> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr
>> aft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>>
>> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
>> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=
=E2=80=9D
>>
>>
>>
>> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedur=
e
>> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
>> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
>> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
>> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
>> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
>> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Shraddha,
>>
>> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
>> questions I'd like to discuss:
>>
>>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request t=
wo
>>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifie=
r
>>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for t=
he
>>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose lab=
el, to
>>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is=
 on
>>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush o=
ff
>>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granulari=
ty
>>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be =
used
>>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Greg
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mpls mailing list
>> mpls@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>
>

_______________________________________________
mpls mailing list
mpls@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls

--001a11491d2a56857c055e10a5c6
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<div dir=3D"auto">I am not suggesting checking any label stack.<div dir=3D"=
auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">All info comes from packet behind label s=
tack. Just like it is read on ingress when/before you apply stack the same =
can be done on egress where there is no more stack at all any more.</div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">thx</div><div dir=3D"auto">r.</=
div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov =
16, 2017 10:43, &quot;ShaoWen Ma&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mashaowen@gmai=
l.com">mashaowen@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquo=
te class=3D"quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Hi Robert and all,<br><br></div>=
=C2=A0 SPRING try to get rid of per flow forwarding status. that&#39;s the =
design principal for whole network. <br></div><div>=C2=A0 and Shraddha just=
 want to add back per flow Traffic statistics as request, which will only a=
pplied to interested flow. <br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 if you chec=
k the label stack for traffic statistics, that might be get some processing=
 trouble to handle:</div><div>{300|200|100} with another label stack such a=
s {400|300|200|100} on the same nodes.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=
=A0 so path id do have it&#39;s value if customer want to check specific fl=
ow, by not impact all packet process on the transit router. <br></div><div>=
<br></div><div>Best Regards</div><div>Shaowen Ma=C2=A0 <br></div>=C2=A0 <br=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=
=3D"quoted-text">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:26 AM, Robert Raszuk <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@=
raszuk.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv class=3D"elided-text"><div dir=3D"auto">The architecture is fine. This i=
s accounting state not forwarding state.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div di=
r=3D"auto">But no new labels are needed.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><=
div dir=3D"auto">See on ingress you apply sr label stack based on some matc=
h of the fields of actual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on th=
e very same fields of the packets on egress and you have path accounting re=
quired for you.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Besides =
this method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long as such S=
Fs do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.</div><div dir=3D"au=
to"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">cheers,</div><div dir=3D"auto">r.</div></di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=
=3D"m_-4855945027626226455h5">On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"></div></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"m_-4855945027626226455h5">




<div bgcolor=3D"white" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" lang=3D"EN-US">
<div>Concur. Although it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from =
my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. H=
ence we would have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu<br>
M=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692=
</a> <br>
E=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu=
@huawei.com</a><br>
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #b5c=
4df;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;padding:8px">
<div><b>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Zafar Ali (zali)</div>
<div><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">draft-heg<wbr>de-spring-traffic-accounting-f<wbr>or-sr-paths=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">mpl<wbr>s@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf<wbr>.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A </b>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose=
 labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A </b>2017-11-16 02:24:10</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-4855945027626226455m_7401593907779805725m_1173985651965020=
512WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr<wbr>aft-ietf-spring-segm=
ent-routin<wbr>g-13</a>, which states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any top=
ological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to=
 the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I fin=
d the procedure very complex and unscalable.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar </p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&g=
t; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>co=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>counting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&gt;, &=
quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&q=
uot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@i=
etf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">Have you thought of using=
 not one special purpose label for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Iden=
tifier+Source SID cases but request two special purpose labels, one for eac=
h case. Then the SR Path Identifier
 would not have to lose the bit for C flag.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0in">And how you envision to collect the counters along t=
he path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters=
 for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I=
&#39;d propose
 to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigge=
r the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to =
the predefined Collector.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:=
0in">And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. =
In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintaine=
d as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node
 scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old co=
unters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be usefu=
l for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the e=
nd of the measurement and trigger
 release of counters.</li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

<br></div></div><span>______________________________<wbr>_________________<=
br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/mpls</a><br>
<br></span></blockquote></div></div>
<br></div>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/spring</a><br=
>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>,  mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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As explained it is not needed to get all information required per path.

Yes you may have N:1 mapping of flows to path so what is the problem ?

thx
r.

On Nov 16, 2017 10:47, "Jeff Tantsura" <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

> Robert,
>
>
>
> HW counters are rather precious resources, but that=E2=80=99s beside the =
point.
>
> An architecture is not an immutable object, on contrary, a very import
> property of a good architecture is flexibility and agility, ability to
> adapt when business need arises.
>
>
>
> Keeping semantics aside =E2=80=93 what=E2=80=99s needed, is a metadata (h=
ere encoded as a
> label) that uniquely identifies a path, where FIB lookup would yield an
> =E2=80=9Ccounter hit=E2=80=9D, potentially counter creation if the packet=
 is the first
> packet in the flow. Value of the label would be hashed in the counter ID
> that is unique and could be resolved by a management layer into accountin=
g
> record.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Robert Raszuk <
> robert@raszuk.net>
> *Date: *Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:26
> *To: *Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc: *Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls
> <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>,
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not forwarding state.
>
>
>
> But no new labels are needed.
>
>
>
> See on ingress you apply sr label stack based on some match of the fields
> of actual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the very same
> fields of the packets on egress and you have path accounting required for
> you.
>
>
>
> Besides this method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long
> as such SFs do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.
>
>
>
> cheers,
>
> r.
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, "Xuxiaohu" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98**=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose lab=
els in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
> =C2=B7  Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both =
SR
> Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two
> special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
> would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>
> =C2=B7  And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
> course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the
> particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
> propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, =
to
> trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
> out-band to the predefined Collector.
>
> =C2=B7  And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per f=
low.
> In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained =
as
> long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope=
,
> you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters=
.
> I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for
> operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end o=
f
> the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
> _______________________________________________ spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"auto">As explained it is not needed to get all information requ=
ired per path.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Yes you may hav=
e N:1 mapping of flows to path so what is the problem ?</div><div dir=3D"au=
to"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">thx</div><div dir=3D"auto">r.</div></div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 16, 2017 10:=
47, &quot;Jeff Tantsura&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com=
">jefftant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc sol=
id;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vl=
ink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_-5348562060348780013WordSection1"><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">Robert,<u></u><u></u></span=
></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<=
u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">HW=
 counters are rather precious resources, but that=E2=80=99s beside the poin=
t.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">An architecture is not an immutable object, on contrary, a very imp=
ort property of a good architecture is flexibility and agility, ability to =
adapt when business need arises. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">Keeping semantics =
aside =E2=80=93 what=E2=80=99s needed, is a metadata (here encoded as a lab=
el) that uniquely identifies a path, where FIB lookup would yield an =E2=80=
=9Ccounter hit=E2=80=9D, potentially counter creation if the packet is the =
first packet in the flow. Value of the label would be hashed in the counter=
 ID that is unique and could be resolved by a management layer into account=
ing record.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:14.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black=
">Jeff</span><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></s=
pan></p><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.=
0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b><span=
 style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Robert=
 Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@r=
aszuk.net</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:26<br><=
b>To: </b>Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt=
;, spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;, mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;, draft-hegde-spri=
ng-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;<br><b>=
Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spri=
ng-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><=
/div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">The architectur=
e is fine. This is accounting state not forwarding state.<u></u><u></u></p>=
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u>=
</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">But no new=
 labels are needed.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:.5in"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">See on ingress you apply sr label stack ba=
sed on some match of the fields of actual packet. So all you need is to do =
accounting on the very same fields of the packets on egress and you have pa=
th accounting required for you.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Besides this method also seaml=
essly works over non sr capable SFs as long as such SFs do not mess with th=
e packet content of those tuples.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">cheers,<u></u><u></u></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">r.<u></u><u></u><=
/p></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><u></=
u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">O=
n Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@h=
uawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></=
u></p><blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padd=
ing:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><div><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:=
.5in">Concur. Although it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from=
 my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. =
Hence we would have to make some compromise.<br><br>Best regards,<br>Xiaohu=
 <br><br><br><br><u></u><u></u></p><div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center=
" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-align:center"><hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%=
" align=3D"center"></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS M=
incho&quot;,serif">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span> Xuxiaohu<span style=
=3D"font-family:&quot;PMingLiU&quot;,serif"><br></span>M<span style=3D"font=
-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=3D"tel:+86-139=
10161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</a> <br>E<span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaoh=
u@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:SimSun">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=
=E6=A1=88</span>-<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=
=E7=BD=91</span><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98</span=
><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=
</span><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91</span=
><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8=
</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;PMingLiU&quot;,serif"><br></span>Pr=
oducts &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u><=
/u><u></u></p></div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0p=
t;padding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image"><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=
=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt"><b><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E6=
=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.=
5pt"> </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&=
gt;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths=
@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt">=
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif"=
>=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun"=
>=E9=A2=98</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;M=
S Mincho&quot;,serif">=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5p=
t"> </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special=
 purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<=
u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-l=
eft:.5in;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family=
:SimSun">=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt"> </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5i=
n;line-height:15.0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u>=
</span></p></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in=
">Hi, <u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">T=
his draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract =
of SR Architecture document <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ie=
tf-spring-segment-routing-13" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html=
/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13</a>, which states:<u></u><u=
></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">=E2=80=9CSR allo=
ws to enforce a flow through any topological path while maintaining per-flo=
w state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D <u></u><u></u>=
</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">In addition to creatin=
g states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data p=
lane and makes it unscalable. It also makes controller job much harder and =
error prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex and unscalable. =
<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">=C2=A0<=
u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Tha=
nks<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Rega=
rds =E2=80=A6 Zafar <u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D=
"margin-left:.5in">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"=
margin-left:.5in">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><div style=3D"border:none;border-=
top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" s=
tyle=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">F=
rom: </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ie=
tf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@g=
mail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>W=
ednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br><b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mail=
to:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>or=
g</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for=
-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accou=
nting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:=
spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Su=
bject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<w=
br>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;color:black">Shraddha,</span> <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;c=
olor:black">thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I ha=
ve these questions I&#39;d like to discuss:</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><=
div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><u></u><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>=C2=B7<span style=3D"font:7.=
0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0 </span></span></span><u></u><span d=
ir=3D"LTR"></span>Have you thought of using not one special purpose label f=
or both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but requ=
est two special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identif=
ier would not have to lose the bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>=C2=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times N=
ew Roman&quot;">=C2=A0 </span></span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span=
>And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course, a =
Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular fl=
ow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#39;d propose to use =
in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LS=
R to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the pred=
efined Collector.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-l=
eft:1.0in"><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span=
>=C2=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0 </span=
></span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>And the last, have you consi=
dered ability to flush counters per flow. In Scalability Considerations you=
&#39;ve stated that counters are maintained as long as collection of statis=
tics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, you may have to turn off/on =
the collection to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granulari=
ty, per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the =
flow itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger re=
lease of counters.<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"ma=
rgin-left:.5in">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Greg<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div><=
/div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1=
2.0pt;margin-left:.5in"><br>______________________________<wbr>____________=
_____<br>mpls mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo=
/mpls" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a=
><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D=
"margin-left:.5in">______________________________<wbr>_________________ spr=
ing mailing list <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sprin=
g@ietf.org</a> <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/spring</a> <u></u=
><u></u></p></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>

--94eb2c075610510788055e10af9d--


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From: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
Thread-Index: AQHTXn9kNLDUQsiVCEyD86mxZ4CAiqMVwdmAgACNpp0=
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 02:54:40 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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<div style=3D"">I fully agree with you that OAM tools are important. <br>
<br>
I just felt that the approach as proposed in the draft would enconter the s=
ame terrible issues as those associated with the MPLS-SR entropy label usag=
e due to RLD and MSD hardware limitations.
<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2 Xuxiaohu<br>
M=A3=BA<a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E=A3=BA<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8-=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=
=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=BF<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B5C=
4DF; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div><b>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Greg Mirsky</div>
<div><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Xuxiaohu&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu=
@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA </b>Zafar Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@c=
isco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-=
sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-=
paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spr=
ing&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA </b>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels i=
n draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA </b>2017-11-16 10:27:55</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear All,
<div>I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lack=
s critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network. T=
rue, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even they =
will likely request that the OAM
 toolbox be sufficient to support their operational needs. I see that this =
work clearly describes the problem and why ability to quantify the flow beh=
avior at internal nodes is important for efficient network operation. First=
 let's discuss whether the case
 and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to dis=
cussion of what measurement method to use.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Greg</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <span=
 dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawe=
i.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1=
px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US">
<div>Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my p=
oint of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence=
 we would have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2 Xuxiaohu<br>
M=A3=BA<a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">&#43;86-139101=
61692</a> <br>
E=A3=BA<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@hu=
awei.com</a><br>
=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8-=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=
=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=BF<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #b5c=
4df; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div><b>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Zafar Ali (zali)</div>
<div><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregi=
mirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<wbr>draf=
t-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dr=
aft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>or=
g</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA </b>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels i=
n draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA </b>2017-11-16 02:24:10</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<div class=3D"m_1518408483082348852WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13<=
/a>, which states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A1=B0SR allows to enforce a flow through any topolo=
gical path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to th=
e SR domain.=A1=B1
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I fin=
d the procedure very complex and unscalable.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =A1=AD Zafar </p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black">Fro=
m: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&=
gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; color:black=
">Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; color:black">thank =
you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions=
 I'd like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">Have you thought of using=
 not one special purpose label for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Iden=
tifier&#43;Source SID cases but request two special purpose labels, one for=
 each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
 would not have to lose the bit for C flag.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0in">And how you envision to collect the counters along t=
he path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters=
 for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier&#43;Source SID). But in additi=
on I'd propose
 to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigge=
r the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to =
the predefined Collector.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:=
0in">And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. =
In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained as=
 long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node
 scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old co=
unters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be usefu=
l for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the e=
nd of the measurement and trigger
 release of counters.</li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 11:08:58 +0800
From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <7EAFDDD7-2248-4AAD-BBD0-B463AF5CC253@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Today, if you run RSVP-TE, you=E2=80=99d get (at least on high end platforms) cou=
nters per LSP.

Having the same functionality with SR seems rather logical.

=20

Cheers,

Jeff

=20

From: <rraszuk@gmail.com> on behalf of Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:50
To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, sp=
ring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco=
.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-sprin=
g-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

=20

As explained it is not needed to get all information required per path.

=20

Yes you may have N:1 mapping of flows to path so what is the problem ?

=20

thx

r.

=20

On Nov 16, 2017 10:47, "Jeff Tantsura" <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Robert,

=20

HW counters are rather precious resources, but that=E2=80=99s beside the point.

An architecture is not an immutable object, on contrary, a very import prop=
erty of a good architecture is flexibility and agility, ability to adapt whe=
n business need arises. =20

=20

Keeping semantics aside =E2=80=93 what=E2=80=99s needed, is a metadata (here encoded as=
 a label) that uniquely identifies a path, where FIB lookup would yield an =E2=
=80=9Ccounter hit=E2=80=9D, potentially counter creation if the packet is the first pa=
cket in the flow. Value of the label would be hashed in the counter ID that =
is unique and could be resolved by a management layer into accounting record=
.

=20

Cheers,

Jeff

=20

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Robert Raszuk <robert@r=
aszuk.net>
Date: Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:26
To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
Cc: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mp=
ls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffi=
c-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-path=
s@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

=20

The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not forwarding state.

=20

But no new labels are needed.

=20

See on ingress you apply sr label stack based on some match of the fields o=
f actual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the very same fields=
 of the packets on egress and you have path accounting required for you.

=20

Besides this method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long a=
s such SFs do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.

=20

cheers,

r.

=20

On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, "Xuxiaohu" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:

Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my point =
of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we wo=
uld have to make some compromise.

Best regards,
Xiaohu=20


=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692=20
E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8
Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Zafar Ali (zali)

=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-=
accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.org>

=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-=
traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2017-11-16 02:24:10

=20

Hi,=20

=20

This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract=
 of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-s=
egment-routing-13, which states:

=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while maintaini=
ng per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D=20

=20

In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure a=
lso affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes controller=
 job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the procedure very comp=
lex and unscalable.=20

=20

Thanks

=20

Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar=20

=20

=20

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <gregimirsk=
y@gmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
To: "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-he=
gde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@=
ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acco=
unting-for-sr-paths

=20

Hi Shraddha,=20

thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these que=
stions I'd like to discuss:

=C2=B7  Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Pat=
h Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special=
 purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not ha=
ve to lose the bit for C flag.

=C2=B7  And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course,=
 a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular =
flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd propose to use in-=
band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to=
 send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefine=
d Collector.

=C2=B7  And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. I=
n Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained as l=
ong as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, yo=
u may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I t=
hink that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operat=
ors. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the mea=
surement and trigger release of counters.

Regards,

Greg


_______________________________________________
mpls mailing list
mpls@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls

_______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@=
ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring=20


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--></style></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><di=
v class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Today=
, if you run RSVP-TE, you=E2=80=99d get (at least on high end platforms) counters =
per LSP.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0=
pt'>Having the same functionality with SR seems rather logical.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black=
'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:10.5pt;color:black'>Jeff</span><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'><o:p></o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:=
3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.=
0pt;color:black'>&lt;rraszuk@gmail.com&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;ro=
bert@raszuk.net&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:50<br>=
<b>To: </b>Jeff Tantsura &lt;jefftant.ietf@gmail.com&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>Xuxia=
ohu &lt;xuxiaohu@huawei.com&gt;, Greg Mirsky &lt;gregimirsky@gmail.com&gt;, =
spring &lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;, mpls &lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;, &quot;Zafar Ali =
(zali)&quot; &lt;zali@cisco.com&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-f=
or-sr-paths &lt;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org&=
gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-h=
egde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>As explained it is not needed to=
 get all information required per path.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>Yes you may have N:1 mapping of flows to path so =
what is the problem ?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mar=
gin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mar=
gin-left:.5in'>thx<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin=
-left:.5in'>r.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'marg=
in-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-lef=
t:.5in'>On Nov 16, 2017 10:47, &quot;Jeff Tantsura&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com">jefftant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p><=
/p><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.=
5in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Robert,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-lef=
t:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-l=
eft:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>HW counters are rather precious res=
ources, but that=E2=80=99s beside the point.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5i=
n'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>An architecture is not an immutable object=
, on contrary, a very import property of a good architecture is flexibility =
and agility, ability to adapt when business need arises. &nbsp;</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bott=
om-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Keeping semanti=
cs aside =E2=80=93 what=E2=80=99s needed, is a metadata (here encoded as a label) that u=
niquely identifies a path, where FIB lookup would yield an =E2=80=9Ccounter hit=E2=80=9D=
, potentially counter creation if the packet is the first packet in the flow=
. Value of the label would be hashed in the counter ID that is unique and co=
uld be resolved by a management layer into accounting record.</span><o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-b=
ottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>=
Cheers,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-=
alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size=
:10.5pt;color:black'>Jeff</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso=
-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;bor=
der-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><=
b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:12.0pt;color:black'>spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Robert Ras=
zuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net=
</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:26<br><b>To: </b>=
Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@h=
uawei.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;, spring &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;, mpls &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;=
Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">z=
ali@cisco.com</a>&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in =
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0i=
n'>The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not forwarding state.<=
o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-mar=
gin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;marg=
in-left:1.0in'>But no new labels are needed.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margi=
n-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-=
margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>See on ing=
ress you apply sr label stack based on some match of the fields of actual pa=
cket. So all you need is to do accounting on the very same fields of the pac=
kets on egress and you have path accounting required for you.<o:p></o:p></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bott=
om-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:=
1.0in'>Besides this method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as =
long as such SFs do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.<o:p></=
o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-mar=
gin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;marg=
in-left:1.0in'>cheers,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'ms=
o-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>r.<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;=
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mar=
gin-left:1.0in'>On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt=
;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0=
in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-a=
lt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'>Concur. Although it has some=
 values, it's not cost-efficient from my point of view. Network simplicity s=
hould be the first priority object. Hence we would have to make some comprom=
ise.<br><br>Best regards,<br>Xiaohu <br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div style=3D'm=
argin-left:.5in'><div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'margin-left:.5in;t=
ext-align:center'><hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter></div></div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.=
0in'><span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span> Xuxiaohu<s=
pan style=3D'font-family:"PMingLiU",serif'><br></span>M<span style=3D'font-famil=
y:"MS Mincho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank"=
>+86-13910161692</a> <br>E<span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</s=
pan><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com=
</a><br><span style=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span>-<span =
style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E7=BD=91</span><span style=3D'font-family:Sim=
Sun'>=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98</span><span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E</span><=
span style=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91</span><span style=3D'font-family:"MS=
 Mincho",serif'>=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><span style=3D'font-family:"PMingLiU",serif'><br>=
</span>Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development =
Dept<o:p></o:p></p></div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.=
0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in' name=3DAnyOffice-Background-Image><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-=
left:1.0in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=
SimSun'>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span></b=
><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Zafar Ali (zali)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
:auto;margin-left:1.0in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt=
;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-=
size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Greg Mirsky&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&=
gt;;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dr=
aft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">d=
raft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</=
span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:=
auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun'>=E9=A2=98</span></b><b><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Re: [mpls]=
 [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-mar=
gin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;line-height:15=
.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun'>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span><=
/b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5=
pt'>2017-11-16 02:24:10</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D=
'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;line-h=
eight:15.0pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></d=
iv><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bo=
ttom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>Hi, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbs=
p;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margi=
n-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>This draft breaks the SR architecture. =
I am quoting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document <a href=3D"ht=
tps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>, wh=
ich states:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;=
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow=
 through any topological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the i=
ngress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'm=
so-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-b=
ottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>In addition to creating states at transit =
and egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it uns=
calable. It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summar=
y, I find the procedure very complex and unscalable. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-=
left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-t=
op-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>Thanks<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:a=
uto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-ma=
rgin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>Regards =E2=80=A6 =
Zafar <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto=
;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-=
left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B=
5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-=
top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><b><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;=
color:black'>spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<b=
r><b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br><b>To: </b>&quot;=
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org=
</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-=
paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr=
-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">mpls@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">spring@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose la=
bels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-=
bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-l=
eft:1.0in'>Hi&nbsp;<span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Shraddha,</spa=
n> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso=
-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;col=
or:black'>thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have =
these questions I'd like to discuss:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin=
-left:1.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>=C2=B7</span><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>&nbsp; </span>=
Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path Ide=
ntifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special purp=
ose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have to=
 lose the bit for C flag.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin=
-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>=C2=B7</span><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font=
-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>&nbsp; </span>And how you envision to colle=
ct the counters along the path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for al=
l counters or counters for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SI=
D). But in addition I'd propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another sp=
ecial purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow wi=
th the timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin=
-left:1.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>=C2=B7</span><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>&nbsp; </span>=
And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Sca=
lability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained as long a=
s collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, you may=
 have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I think =
that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operators. =
Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the measurem=
ent and trigger release of counters.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal s=
tyle=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>=
Regards,<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin=
-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>Greg<o:p></o:p><=
/p></div></div></div></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-al=
t:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><br>_________________________=
______________________<br>mpls mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/mpls" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</=
a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-marg=
in-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>______________=
_________________________________ spring mailing list <a href=3D"mailto:spring=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a> <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/spring" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi=
nfo/spring</a> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></b=
ody></html>

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From: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>,  Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>,  Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 03:15:44 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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<div style=3D""><br>
If so, why not directly use RSVP-TE if the per flow state is needed?<br>
<br>
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<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2 Xuxiaohu<br>
M=A3=BA<a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E=A3=BA<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
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Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
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<div><b>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Jeff Tantsura</div>
<div><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Robert Raszuk&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rob=
ert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA </b>Xuxiaohu&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawe=
i.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;;Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimi=
rsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:s=
pring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf=
.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;Zafar
 Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;dra=
ft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-=
hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels i=
n draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA </b>2017-11-16 11:09:13</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">Today, if you run R=
SVP-TE, you=A1=AFd get (at least on high end platforms) counters per LSP.</=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">Having the same fun=
ctionality with SR seems rather logical.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; color:black">Cheers=
,</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; color:black">Jeff</=
span><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.0pt; color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black">&lt;rraszuk@gmail.=
com&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;robert@raszuk.net&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:50<br>
<b>To: </b>Jeff Tantsura &lt;jefftant.ietf@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Xuxiaohu &lt;xuxiaohu@huawei.com&gt;, Greg Mirsky &lt;gregimirsk=
y@gmail.com&gt;, spring &lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;, mpls &lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;=
, &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;zali@cisco.com&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">As explained it is not ne=
eded to get all information required per path.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Yes you may have N:1 mapp=
ing of flows to path so what is the problem ?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">thx</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">r.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">On Nov 16, 2017 10:47, &q=
uot;Jeff Tantsura&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com">jeff=
tant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:=
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">Robert,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">HW counters are rather precious resources, but that=A1=AFs beside t=
he point.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">An architecture is not an immutable object, on contrary, a very imp=
ort property of a good architecture is flexibility and agility, ability to =
adapt when business need arises. &nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">Keeping semantics aside =A8C what=A1=AFs needed, is a metadata (her=
e encoded as a label) that uniquely identifies a path, where FIB lookup wou=
ld yield an =A1=B0counter hit=A1=B1, potentially counter
 creation if the packet is the first packet in the flow. Value of the label=
 would be hashed in the counter ID that is unique and could be resolved by =
a management layer into accounting record.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt; color:black">Cheers,</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt; color:black">Jeff</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt; color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black">spring &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.n=
et" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:26<br>
<b>To: </b>Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;, spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spr=
ing@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;, mpls &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=
=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-f=
or-sr-paths &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for=
-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting=
-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">The architecture is fine=
. This is accounting state not forwarding state.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">But no new labels are ne=
eded.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">See on ingress you apply=
 sr label stack based on some match of the fields of actual packet. So all =
you need is to do accounting on the very same fields of the packets on egre=
ss and you have path accounting required
 for you.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Besides this method also=
 seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long as such SFs do not mess w=
ith the packet content of those tuples.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">cheers,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">r.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &=
quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:=
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0in; m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt; margin-left:1.0in">Co=
ncur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my point of=
 view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we wou=
ld have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin-left:.5in; text-a=
lign:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt; margin-left:1.0in"><s=
pan style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2</s=
pan> Xuxiaohu<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;PMingLiU&quot;,serif"><br>
</span>M<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=A3=BA</spa=
n><a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">&#43;86-13910161692=
</a>
<br>
E<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=A3=BA</span><a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>=
<br>
<span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=
=B8</span>-<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=CD=F8</=
span><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=C2=E7=D5=BD</span><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=C2=D4=D3=EB</span><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:SimSun">=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quo=
t;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=D5=B9=B2=BF</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quo=
t;PMingLiU&quot;,serif"><br>
</span>Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development=
 Dept</p>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border:none; border-top:s=
olid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:SimSun">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=
=BA</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;dr=
aft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">d=
raft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;sp=
ring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=
=D6=F7</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:SimSun">=
=CC=E2</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;MS M=
incho&quot;,serif">=A3=BA</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:SimSun">=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA</spa=
n></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">This draft breaks the SR=
 architecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture docu=
ment
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>, which=
 states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=A1=B0SR allows to enfor=
ce a flow through any topological path while maintaining per-flow state onl=
y at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=A1=B1
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">In addition to creating =
states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data pla=
ne and makes it unscalable. It also makes controller job much harder and er=
ror prune. In summary, I find the procedure
 very complex and unscalable. </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Regards =A1=AD Zafar </p=
>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt; color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black">spring &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accountin=
g-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-=
traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spr=
ing-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Hi&nbsp;<span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt; color:black">Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt; color:black">thank you for very well written and thought through d=
raft. I have these questions I'd like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol">=A1=A4</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt; f=
ont-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;
</span>Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR =
Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier&#43;Source SID cases but request two=
 special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier wou=
ld not have to lose the bit for C flag.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol">=A1=A4</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt; f=
ont-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;
</span>And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of cour=
se, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particu=
lar flow (SR Path Identifier&#43;Source SID). But in addition I'd propose t=
o use in-band mechanism, perhaps another
 special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flo=
w with the timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol">=A1=A4</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt; f=
ont-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;
</span>And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow=
. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained =
as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scop=
e, you may have to turn off/on the
 collection to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity,=
 per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flo=
w itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger relea=
se of counters.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt; margin-left:1.0in"><b=
r>
_______________________________________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">________________________=
_______________________ spring mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a> <a=
 href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring</a> </p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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From: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>,  "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 03:28:41 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: "Shah, Himanshu" <hshah@ciena.com>
To: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 03:35:07 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
To: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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<div style=3D""><br>
The beauty of MPLS-SR is less states are required. To keep it as beautiful =
as possible, it'd better for us to overcome the impulsion of adding more an=
d more complicated functions.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2 Xuxiaohu<br>
M=A3=BA<a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E=A3=BA<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8-=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=
=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=BF<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B5C=
4DF; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div><b>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Mach Chen</div>
<div><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Zafar Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
zali@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gre=
gimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;draft-hegde-spring-traffi=
c-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-a=
ccounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-=
sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@iet=
f.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA </b>Re: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA </b>2017-11-16 11:29:12</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; colo=
r:#1F497D">Hi Zafar,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; colo=
r:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; colo=
r:#1F497D">Given that SR supports SID Binding, states only maintained at in=
gress is not very true.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; colo=
r:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; colo=
r:#1F497D">Best regards,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; colo=
r:#1F497D">Mach</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; colo=
r:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid blue 1.5pt; padding:0cm 0cm 0c=
m 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0c=
m 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&=
quot;sans-serif&quot;"> mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 2:24 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Mirsky; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@=
ietf.org; mpls@ietf.org; spring@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi, </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This draft breaks the SR archit=
ecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>, whi=
ch states:</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=A1=B0SR allows to enforce a fl=
ow through any topological path while maintaining per-flow state only at th=
e ingress nodes to the SR domain.=A1=B1
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">In addition to creating states =
at transit and egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and =
makes it unscalable. It also makes controller job much harder and error pru=
ne. In summary, I find the procedure
 very complex and unscalable. </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards =A1=AD Zafar </span></p=
>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0c=
m 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; c=
olor:black">From:
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black">spr=
ing &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org">spring-bounces@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.co=
m">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@iet=
f.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting=
-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:sp=
ring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.=
org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; color:black">Shraddha,</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US">
</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; colo=
r:black">thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have =
these questions I'd like to discuss:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US">Have you thought of=
 using not one special purpose label for both SR Path Identifier and SR Pat=
h Identifier&#43;Source SID cases but request two special purpose labels, o=
ne for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
 would not have to lose the bit for C flag.</span></li><li class=3D"MsoNorm=
al" style=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US">And how you envision to collect the cou=
nters along the path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counter=
s or counters for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier&#43;Source SID). =
But in addition I'd propose
 to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigge=
r the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to =
the predefined Collector.</span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US">And the last, have you considered ability to flush counte=
rs per flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are =
maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on th=
e
 node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some o=
ld counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be =
useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal =
the end of the measurement and trigger
 release of counters.</span></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards,</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Greg</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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From: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
To: "Shah, Himanshu" <hshah@ciena.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
Thread-Index: AQHTXj70Q7+fGT1teEWvdiTu0xFRa6MWWYsQ//97poCAAIoOIA==
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 03:56:21 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 04:01:52 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">IMHO, OAM is a fundamental function that is for an operator to ru=
nning their SR network.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">I hope we=A1=AFd better not repeat the philosophy debate here. We=
 should focus on the specific use case/requirement/technologies.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Mach<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> Xuxiaohu
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 11:52 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mach Chen; Zafar Ali (zali); Greg Mirsky; draft-hegde-spring-tra=
ffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; mpls; spring<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
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style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5"><br>
The beauty of MPLS-SR is less states are required. To keep it as beautiful =
as possible, it'd better for us to overcome the impulsion of adding more an=
d more complicated functions.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2<span lang=3D"EN-US"=
> Xuxiaohu<br>
M</span>=A3=BA<span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43=
;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E</span>=A3=BA<span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">x=
uxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
</span>=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8<span lang=3D"EN-US">-</sp=
an>=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=BF<span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<o=
:p></o:p></span></span></p>
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0cm 0cm" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=CB=
=CE=CC=E5">Mach Chen<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=CB=
=CE=CC=E5">Zafar Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@cisco=
.com</a>&gt;;Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregim=
irsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@iet=
f.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;=
mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=CB=
=CE=CC=E5">Re: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffi=
c-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=CB=
=CE=CC=E5">2017-11-16 11:29:12<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Hi Zafar,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Given that SR supports SID Binding, states only maintained at ing=
ress is not very true.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Best regards,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Mach</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org">mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 2:24 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Mirsky; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accoun=
ting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D=
"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">
mpls@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This draft breaks the SR archit=
ecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>, whi=
ch states:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=A1=B0SR allows to enforce a fl=
ow through any topological path while maintaining per-flow state only at th=
e ingress nodes to the SR domain.=A1=B1
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">In addition to creating states =
at transit and egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and =
makes it unscalable. It also makes controller job much harder and error pru=
ne. In summary, I find the procedure
 very complex and unscalable. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards =A1=AD Zafar <o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;co=
lor:black">From:
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spri=
ng &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org">spring-bounces@ietf.org</=
a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com=
">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@iet=
f.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting=
-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:sp=
ring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.=
org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">Shraddha,</span><span lang=3D"E=
N-US">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color=
:black">thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have t=
hese questions I'd like to discuss:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span lang=3D"EN-=
US">Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Pat=
h Identifier and SR Path Identifier&#43;Source SID cases but request two sp=
ecial purpose labels, one for each case. Then
 the SR Path Identifier would not have to lose the bit for C flag.<o:p></o:=
p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US">And how you envision to collect the counters along the pa=
th? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for =
the particular flow (SR Path Identifier&#43;Source SID).
 But in addition I'd propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another spec=
ial purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow wit=
h the timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<o:p></o:p></span></li=
><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span lang=3D"EN=
-US">And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. =
In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained as=
 long as collection of statistics is enabled.
 If that is on the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection t=
o flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow gra=
nularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may =
be used to signal the end of the
 measurement and trigger release of counters.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Greg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE2922AE4DDdggeml510mbschi_--


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From: "Chengli (IP Technology Research)" <chengli13@huawei.com>
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>,  Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>,  Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 12:36:37 +0800
From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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ATM would give us event better visibility ;-)

=20

I=E2=80=99m not advocating for a particular solution, nor expressing my liking of=
 anything proposed, just stating that there a business need, especially for =
those, migrating from RSVP-TE to SR.

There=E2=80=99s big difference between per LSP (not per flow) networking state an=
d accounting in a system=E2=80=A6

=20

Perhaps obvious =E2=80=93 the value of an architecture is not in its abstract bea=
uty (which I fully appreciate) but in its usability and value created.

=20

Cheers,

Jeff

From: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
Date: Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 11:21
To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.n=
et>
Cc: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mp=
ls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffi=
c-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-path=
s@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

=20


If so, why not directly use RSVP-TE if the per flow state is needed?


=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692=20
E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8
Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Jeff Tantsura

=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Robert Raszuk<robert@raszuk.net>

=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A Xuxiaohu<xuxiaohu@huawei.com>;Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>;=
spring<spring@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;Zafar Ali (zali)<zali@cisco.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>

=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-=
traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2017-11-16 11:09:13

=20

Today, if you run RSVP-TE, you=E2=80=99d get (at least on high end platforms) cou=
nters per LSP.

Having the same functionality with SR seems rather logical.

=20

Cheers,

Jeff

=20

From: <rraszuk@gmail.com> on behalf of Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:50
To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, sp=
ring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco=
.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-sprin=
g-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

=20

As explained it is not needed to get all information required per path.

=20

Yes you may have N:1 mapping of flows to path so what is the problem ?

=20

thx

r.

=20

On Nov 16, 2017 10:47, "Jeff Tantsura" <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Robert,

=20

HW counters are rather precious resources, but that=E2=80=99s beside the point.

An architecture is not an immutable object, on contrary, a very import prop=
erty of a good architecture is flexibility and agility, ability to adapt whe=
n business need arises. =20

=20

Keeping semantics aside =E2=80=93 what=E2=80=99s needed, is a metadata (here encoded as=
 a label) that uniquely identifies a path, where FIB lookup would yield an =E2=
=80=9Ccounter hit=E2=80=9D, potentially counter creation if the packet is the first pa=
cket in the flow. Value of the label would be hashed in the counter ID that =
is unique and could be resolved by a management layer into accounting record=
.

=20

Cheers,

Jeff

=20

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Robert Raszuk <robert@r=
aszuk.net>
Date: Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:26
To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
Cc: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mp=
ls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffi=
c-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-path=
s@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

=20

The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not forwarding state.

=20

But no new labels are needed.

=20

See on ingress you apply sr label stack based on some match of the fields o=
f actual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the very same fields=
 of the packets on egress and you have path accounting required for you.

=20

Besides this method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long a=
s such SFs do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.

=20

cheers,

r.

=20

On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, "Xuxiaohu" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:

Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my point =
of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we wo=
uld have to make some compromise.

Best regards,
Xiaohu=20

=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692=20
E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8
Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Zafar Ali (zali)

=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-=
accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.org>

=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-=
traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2017-11-16 02:24:10

=20

Hi,=20

=20

This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract=
 of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-s=
egment-routing-13, which states:

=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while maintaini=
ng per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D=20

=20

In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure a=
lso affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes controller=
 job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the procedure very comp=
lex and unscalable.=20

=20

Thanks

=20

Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar=20

=20

=20

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <gregimirsk=
y@gmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
To: "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-he=
gde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@=
ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acco=
unting-for-sr-paths

=20

Hi Shraddha,=20

thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these que=
stions I'd like to discuss:

=C2=B7  Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Pat=
h Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special=
 purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not ha=
ve to lose the bit for C flag.

=C2=B7  And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course,=
 a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular =
flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd propose to use in-=
band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to=
 send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefine=
d Collector.

=C2=B7  And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. I=
n Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained as l=
ong as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, yo=
u may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I t=
hink that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operat=
ors. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the mea=
surement and trigger release of counters.

Regards,

Greg


_______________________________________________
mpls mailing list
mpls@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls

_______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@=
ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring=20


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--></style></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><di=
v class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>ATM w=
ould give us event better visibility ;-)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMso=
Normal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>I=E2=80=99m not advocating for a particular =
solution, nor expressing my liking of anything proposed, just stating that t=
here a business need, especially for those, migrating from RSVP-TE to SR.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>There=E2=80=
=99s big difference between per LSP (not per flow) networking state and accoun=
ting in a system=E2=80=A6<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:14.0pt'>Perhaps obvious =E2=80=93 the value of an architecture is not in =
its abstract beauty (which I fully appreciate) but in its usability and valu=
e created.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14=
.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:=
14.0pt'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:14.0pt'>Jeff<o:p></o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:soli=
d #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-=
left:.5in'><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Xuxiaohu &lt;xuxiaohu@huawei.com&gt=
;<br><b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 11:21<br><b>To: </b>Jeff Ta=
ntsura &lt;jefftant.ietf@gmail.com&gt;, Robert Raszuk &lt;robert@raszuk.net&=
gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>Greg Mirsky &lt;gregimirsky@gmail.com&gt;, spring &lt;spri=
ng@ietf.org&gt;, mpls &lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;, &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &l=
t;zali@cisco.com&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths &lt=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Subje=
ct: </b>RE: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-tra=
ffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;marg=
in-left:.5in'><br>If so, why not directly use RSVP-TE if the per flow state =
is needed?<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=
=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter><=
/div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margi=
n-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif=
'>=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span> Xuxiaohu<span style=3D'font-family:"PMingLiU",serif'><br></=
span>M<span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=3D"tel:+86=
-13910161692">+86-13910161692</a> <br>E<span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",=
serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a=
><br><span style=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span>-<span sty=
le=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E7=BD=91</span><span style=3D'font-family:SimSun=
'>=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98</span><span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E</span><spa=
n style=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91</span><span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mi=
ncho",serif'>=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><span style=3D'font-family:"PMingLiU",serif'><br></s=
pan>Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dep=
t<o:p></o:p></p></div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt=
;padding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in' name=3DAnyOffice-Background-Image><div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun'>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:10.5pt'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Jeff Tantsura<o:p></o:p=
></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-heigh=
t:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E6=94=
=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Robert Raszuk&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net">ro=
bert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal s=
tyle=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;=
font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size=
:10.5pt'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Xuxiaohu&lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;;Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;Zafar Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zal=
i@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-p=
aths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left=
:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS M=
incho",serif'>=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Sim=
Sun'>=E9=A2=98</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",=
serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-he=
gde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun'>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>2017-11-16 11:09=
:13<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;li=
ne-height:15.0pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'fo=
nt-size:14.0pt'>Today, if you run RSVP-TE, you=E2=80=99d get (at least on high end=
 platforms) counters per LSP.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D=
'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Having the same functional=
ity with SR seems rather logical.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:10.5pt;color:black'>Cheers,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Jeff</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:14.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-=
top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D=
'margin-left:1.0in'><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </sp=
an></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>&lt;rraszuk@gmail.com&gt; =
on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;robert@raszuk.net&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Thursda=
y, November 16, 2017 at 10:50<br><b>To: </b>Jeff Tantsura &lt;jefftant.ietf@=
gmail.com&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>Xuxiaohu &lt;xuxiaohu@huawei.com&gt;, Greg Mirsk=
y &lt;gregimirsky@gmail.com&gt;, spring &lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;, mpls &lt;mp=
ls@ietf.org&gt;, &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;zali@cisco.com&gt;, draft-=
hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-=
accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] =
Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths=
</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in=
'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0i=
n'>As explained it is not needed to get all information required per path.<o=
:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></=
o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>Yes you may =
have N:1 mapping of flows to path so what is the problem ?<o:p></o:p></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></=
div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>thx<o:p></o:p></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>r.<o:p></o:p></p></div><=
/div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>On Nov 16, 2017 10:47, &qu=
ot;Jeff Tantsura&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com">jefftant=
.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D'border:none;=
border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;=
margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Robert,</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'=
font-size:14.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'marg=
in-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>HW counters are rather preciou=
s resources, but that=E2=80=99s beside the point.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>An architec=
ture is not an immutable object, on contrary, a very import property of a go=
od architecture is flexibility and agility, ability to adapt when business n=
eed arises. &nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-lef=
t:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Keeping =
semantics aside =E2=80=93 what=E2=80=99s needed, is a metadata (here encoded as a label)=
 that uniquely identifies a path, where FIB lookup would yield an =E2=80=9Ccounter=
 hit=E2=80=9D, potentially counter creation if the packet is the first packet in t=
he flow. Value of the label would be hashed in the counter ID that is unique=
 and could be resolved by a management layer into accounting record.</span><=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font=
-size:14.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mar=
gin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Cheers,</span><o:=
p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'=
font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Jeff</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal s=
tyle=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></=
o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt=
 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'><b><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;=
color:black'>spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br><b>D=
ate: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:26<br><b>To: </b>Xuxiaohu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt=
;<br><b>Cc: </b>Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;, spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;, mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a=
>&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b=
>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spri=
ng-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>The architecture is fine. This is accou=
nting state not forwarding state.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal styl=
e=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal sty=
le=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>But no new labels are needed.<o:p></o:p></p></div><di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>See on ingress you apply sr =
label stack based on some match of the fields of actual packet. So all you n=
eed is to do accounting on the very same fields of the packets on egress and=
 you have path accounting required for you.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>Besides this method also seamlessly w=
orks over non sr capable SFs as long as such SFs do not mess with the packet=
 content of those tuples.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D=
'margin-left:1.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>cheers,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal sty=
le=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>r.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wr=
ote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-ri=
ght:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-=
top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.5in'>Concur.=
 Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my point of view.=
 Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we would have=
 to make some compromise.<br><br>Best regards,<br>Xiaohu <br><br><o:p></o:p>=
</p><div style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><div style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><div class=3DM=
soNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><hr size=3D2 =
width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter></div></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-ma=
rgin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.5in'><s=
pan style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span> Xuxiaohu<span sty=
le=3D'font-family:"PMingLiU",serif'><br></span>M<span style=3D'font-family:"MS M=
incho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13=
910161692</a> <br>E<span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br=
><span style=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span>-<span style=3D'=
font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E7=BD=91</span><span style=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=E7=BB=
=9C=E6=88=98</span><span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E</span><span st=
yle=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91</span><span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho=
",serif'>=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><span style=3D'font-family:"PMingLiU",serif'><br></span>=
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<o:=
p></o:p></p></div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;pad=
ding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in' name=3DAnyOffice-Background-Image><div><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:1=
0.5pt;font-family:SimSun'>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:1=
0.5pt'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Zafar Ali (zali)</span><o:=
p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in;line-heig=
ht:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E6=
=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac=
counting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounti=
ng-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-account=
ing-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun'>=E9=A2=98</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Re: [mpls] [spring=
] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-pat=
hs</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5=
in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun'>=
=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>2017-11-16 02:24:10</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:10.5pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>Hi, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-=
left:1.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in=
'>This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstrac=
t of SR Architecture document <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iet=
f-spring-segment-routing-13" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/dra=
ft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>, which states:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through a=
ny topological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nod=
es to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left=
:1.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>In=
 addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure also=
 affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes controller jo=
b much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex=
 and unscalable. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'=
>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>Than=
ks<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'=
><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0=
pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>=
spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimi=
rsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: </=
b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br><b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mail=
to:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&quot; &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.o=
rg</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@iet=
f.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>Hi&nbsp;<span style=3D'font-si=
ze:10.0pt;color:black'>Shraddha,</span> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>than=
k you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these question=
s I'd like to discuss:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'margin-left:2.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>=C2=B7=
</span><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>&nb=
sp; </span>Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both =
SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two s=
pecial purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would =
not have to lose the bit for C flag.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D=
'margin-left:2.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>=C2=B7</sp=
an><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>&nbsp; =
</span>And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of cours=
e, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particula=
r flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd propose to use i=
n-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR =
to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefi=
ned Collector.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:2.0in'><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>=C2=B7</span><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>&nbsp; </span>And the last, h=
ave you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Scalability Consid=
erations you've stated that counters are maintained as long as collection of=
 statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, you may have to turn o=
ff/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I think that finer gran=
ularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps =
the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger=
 release of counters.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-le=
ft:1.5in'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'=
margin-left:1.5in'>Greg<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0=
pt;margin-left:1.5in'><br>_______________________________________________<br=
>mpls mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ie=
tf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" target=3D"_=
blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockq=
uote></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>______________=
_________________________________ spring mailing list <a href=3D"mailto:spring=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a> <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/spring" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi=
nfo/spring</a> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></body></html>

--B_3593680601_1614002086--




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Reply-To: <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Mach Chen'" <mach.chen@huawei.com>, "'Jeff Tantsura'" <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, "'Robert Raszuk'" <robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: "'draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths'" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  "'spring'" <spring@ietf.org>, "'mpls'" <mpls@ietf.org>, "'Zafar Ali \(zali\)'" <zali@cisco.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 05:35:09 -0000
Message-ID: <12fc01d35e9c$ad540470$07fc0d50$@olddog.co.uk>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/Mx2YGhKMtuVTH3TYsqLS_XprYuM>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Let's unpick a couple of things...
=20
1. This work is not talking about per-flow accounting, it is talking =
about peer SR-path accounting
2. ipfix on its own does not cut it because you still have to put a =
marker in the packets
3. Yes, SR assumes there is no (i.e. zero) state per SR-path in the =
network
But this third point causes a tension: we want to use SR because it is =
good, but we want to do transit node diagnostics because (frankly) they =
are necessary.
To get the full picture of why they are necessary read the draft, or =
consider ECMP.
=20
This discussion will not be unfamiliar to those who tried to debug LDP =
networks.
=20
Adrian
=20

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<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
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lang=3DEN-GB link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple =
style=3D'tab-interval:36.0pt'><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Let's unpick a couple =
of things...<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>1. This work is not =
talking about per-flow accounting, it is talking about peer SR-path =
accounting<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>2. ipfix on its own =
does not cut it because you still have to put a marker in the =
packets<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>3. Yes, SR assumes =
there is no (i.e. zero) state per SR-path in the =
network<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>But this third point =
causes a tension: we want to use SR because it is good, but we want to =
do transit node diagnostics because (frankly) they are =
necessary.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>To get the full =
picture of why they are necessary read the draft, or consider =
ECMP.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>This discussion will =
not be unfamiliar to those who tried to debug LDP =
networks.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'>Adrian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_12FD_01D35E9C.AD55B220--


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From: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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<div style=3D""><br>
s/per flow/per path.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2 Xuxiaohu<br>
M=A3=BA<a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E=A3=BA<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8-=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=
=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=BF<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B5C=
4DF; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div><b>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Xuxiaohu</div>
<div><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Jeff Tantsura&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jef=
ftant.ietf@gmail.com">jefftant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;;Robert Raszuk&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA </b>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr=
-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-pa=
ths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;;Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@=
gmail.com</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.=
org</a>&gt;;Zafar
 Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;mpl=
s&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels i=
n draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA </b>2017-11-16 11:21:46</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D""><br>
If so, why not directly use RSVP-TE if the per flow state is needed?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2 Xuxiaohu<br>
M=A3=BA<a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E=A3=BA<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8-=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=
=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=BF<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B5C=
4DF; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div><b>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Jeff Tantsura</div>
<div><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Robert Raszuk&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rob=
ert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA </b>Xuxiaohu&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawe=
i.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;;Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimi=
rsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:s=
pring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf=
.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;Zafar
 Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;dra=
ft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-=
hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels i=
n draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA </b>2017-11-16 11:09:13</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">Today, if you run R=
SVP-TE, you=A1=AFd get (at least on high end platforms) counters per LSP.</=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">Having the same fun=
ctionality with SR seems rather logical.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; color:black">Cheers=
,</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; color:black">Jeff</=
span><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.0pt; color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black">&lt;rraszuk@gmail.=
com&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;robert@raszuk.net&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:50<br>
<b>To: </b>Jeff Tantsura &lt;jefftant.ietf@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Xuxiaohu &lt;xuxiaohu@huawei.com&gt;, Greg Mirsky &lt;gregimirsk=
y@gmail.com&gt;, spring &lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;, mpls &lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;=
, &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;zali@cisco.com&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">As explained it is not ne=
eded to get all information required per path.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Yes you may have N:1 mapp=
ing of flows to path so what is the problem ?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">thx</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">r.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">On Nov 16, 2017 10:47, &q=
uot;Jeff Tantsura&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com">jeff=
tant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:=
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">Robert,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">HW counters are rather precious resources, but that=A1=AFs beside t=
he point.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">An architecture is not an immutable object, on contrary, a very imp=
ort property of a good architecture is flexibility and agility, ability to =
adapt when business need arises. &nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">Keeping semantics aside =A8C what=A1=AFs needed, is a metadata (her=
e encoded as a label) that uniquely identifies a path, where FIB lookup wou=
ld yield an =A1=B0counter hit=A1=B1, potentially counter
 creation if the packet is the first packet in the flow. Value of the label=
 would be hashed in the counter ID that is unique and could be resolved by =
a management layer into accounting record.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt; color:black">Cheers,</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt; color:black">Jeff</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt; color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black">spring &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.n=
et" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:26<br>
<b>To: </b>Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;, spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spr=
ing@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;, mpls &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=
=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-f=
or-sr-paths &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for=
-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting=
-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">The architecture is fine=
. This is accounting state not forwarding state.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">But no new labels are ne=
eded.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">See on ingress you apply=
 sr label stack based on some match of the fields of actual packet. So all =
you need is to do accounting on the very same fields of the packets on egre=
ss and you have path accounting required
 for you.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Besides this method also=
 seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long as such SFs do not mess w=
ith the packet content of those tuples.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">cheers,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">r.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &=
quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:=
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0in; m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt; margin-left:1.0in">Co=
ncur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my point of=
 view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we wou=
ld have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin-left:.5in; text-a=
lign:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt; margin-left:1.0in"><s=
pan style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2</s=
pan> Xuxiaohu<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;PMingLiU&quot;,serif"><br>
</span>M<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=A3=BA</spa=
n><a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">&#43;86-13910161692=
</a>
<br>
E<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=A3=BA</span><a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>=
<br>
<span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=
=B8</span>-<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=CD=F8</=
span><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=C2=E7=D5=BD</span><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=C2=D4=D3=EB</span><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:SimSun">=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quo=
t;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=D5=B9=B2=BF</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quo=
t;PMingLiU&quot;,serif"><br>
</span>Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development=
 Dept</p>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border:none; border-top:s=
olid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:SimSun">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=
=BA</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;dr=
aft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">d=
raft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;sp=
ring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=
=D6=F7</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:SimSun">=
=CC=E2</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;MS M=
incho&quot;,serif">=A3=BA</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:SimSun">=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA</spa=
n></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">This draft breaks the SR=
 architecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture docu=
ment
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>, which=
 states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=A1=B0SR allows to enfor=
ce a flow through any topological path while maintaining per-flow state onl=
y at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=A1=B1
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">In addition to creating =
states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data pla=
ne and makes it unscalable. It also makes controller job much harder and er=
ror prune. In summary, I find the procedure
 very complex and unscalable. </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Regards =A1=AD Zafar </p=
>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt; color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black">spring &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accountin=
g-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-=
traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spr=
ing-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Hi&nbsp;<span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt; color:black">Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt; color:black">thank you for very well written and thought through d=
raft. I have these questions I'd like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol">=A1=A4</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt; f=
ont-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;
</span>Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR =
Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier&#43;Source SID cases but request two=
 special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier wou=
ld not have to lose the bit for C flag.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol">=A1=A4</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt; f=
ont-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;
</span>And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of cour=
se, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particu=
lar flow (SR Path Identifier&#43;Source SID). But in addition I'd propose t=
o use in-band mechanism, perhaps another
 special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flo=
w with the timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol">=A1=A4</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt; f=
ont-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;
</span>And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow=
. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained =
as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scop=
e, you may have to turn off/on the
 collection to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity,=
 per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flo=
w itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger relea=
se of counters.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt; margin-left:1.0in"><b=
r>
_______________________________________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">________________________=
_______________________ spring mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a> <a=
 href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring</a> </p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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From: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>,  Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
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<div style=3D"">Just an idea occurring in my mind: Maybe it's worthwhile to=
 consider how to address this business demand by using the unified SR appro=
ach (https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-100-mpls-04-=
draft-xu-mpls-unified-source-routing-instruction-ietf100/).
 More specifically, use the source port of the UDP tunnel header to carry t=
he path identity, just like the idea of using the unified SR approach to ad=
dress the load-balancing issue associated with the MPLS-SR.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2 Xuxiaohu<br>
M=A3=BA<a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E=A3=BA<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8-=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=
=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=BF<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B5C=
4DF; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div><b>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Xuxiaohu</div>
<div><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Jeff Tantsura&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jef=
ftant.ietf@gmail.com">jefftant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;;Robert Raszuk&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA </b>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr=
-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-pa=
ths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;=
;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;Zafar
 Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;Gre=
g Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels i=
n draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA </b>2017-11-16 14:25:32</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D""><br>
s/per flow/per path.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2 Xuxiaohu<br>
M=A3=BA<a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E=A3=BA<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8-=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=
=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=BF<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B5C=
4DF; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div><b>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Xuxiaohu</div>
<div><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Jeff Tantsura&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jef=
ftant.ietf@gmail.com">jefftant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;;Robert Raszuk&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA </b>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr=
-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-pa=
ths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;;Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@=
gmail.com</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.=
org</a>&gt;;Zafar
 Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;mpl=
s&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels i=
n draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA </b>2017-11-16 11:21:46</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D""><br>
If so, why not directly use RSVP-TE if the per flow state is needed?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2 Xuxiaohu<br>
M=A3=BA<a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E=A3=BA<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8-=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=
=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=BF<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B5C=
4DF; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div><b>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Jeff Tantsura</div>
<div><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Robert Raszuk&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rob=
ert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA </b>Xuxiaohu&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawe=
i.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;;Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimi=
rsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:s=
pring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf=
.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;Zafar
 Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;dra=
ft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-=
hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels i=
n draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA </b>2017-11-16 11:09:13</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">Today, if you run R=
SVP-TE, you=A1=AFd get (at least on high end platforms) counters per LSP.</=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">Having the same fun=
ctionality with SR seems rather logical.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; color:black">Cheers=
,</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; color:black">Jeff</=
span><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.0pt; color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black">&lt;rraszuk@gmail.=
com&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;robert@raszuk.net&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:50<br>
<b>To: </b>Jeff Tantsura &lt;jefftant.ietf@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Xuxiaohu &lt;xuxiaohu@huawei.com&gt;, Greg Mirsky &lt;gregimirsk=
y@gmail.com&gt;, spring &lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;, mpls &lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;=
, &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;zali@cisco.com&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">As explained it is not ne=
eded to get all information required per path.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Yes you may have N:1 mapp=
ing of flows to path so what is the problem ?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">thx</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">r.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">On Nov 16, 2017 10:47, &q=
uot;Jeff Tantsura&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com">jeff=
tant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:=
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">Robert,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">HW counters are rather precious resources, but that=A1=AFs beside t=
he point.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">An architecture is not an immutable object, on contrary, a very imp=
ort property of a good architecture is flexibility and agility, ability to =
adapt when business need arises. &nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">Keeping semantics aside =A8C what=A1=AFs needed, is a metadata (her=
e encoded as a label) that uniquely identifies a path, where FIB lookup wou=
ld yield an =A1=B0counter hit=A1=B1, potentially counter
 creation if the packet is the first packet in the flow. Value of the label=
 would be hashed in the counter ID that is unique and could be resolved by =
a management layer into accounting record.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt; color:black">Cheers,</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt; color:black">Jeff</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt; color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black">spring &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.n=
et" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:26<br>
<b>To: </b>Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;, spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spr=
ing@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;, mpls &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=
=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-f=
or-sr-paths &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for=
-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting=
-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">The architecture is fine=
. This is accounting state not forwarding state.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">But no new labels are ne=
eded.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">See on ingress you apply=
 sr label stack based on some match of the fields of actual packet. So all =
you need is to do accounting on the very same fields of the packets on egre=
ss and you have path accounting required
 for you.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Besides this method also=
 seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long as such SFs do not mess w=
ith the packet content of those tuples.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">cheers,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">r.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &=
quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:=
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0in; m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt; margin-left:1.0in">Co=
ncur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my point of=
 view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we wou=
ld have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin-left:.5in; text-a=
lign:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt; margin-left:1.0in"><s=
pan style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2</s=
pan> Xuxiaohu<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;PMingLiU&quot;,serif"><br>
</span>M<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=A3=BA</spa=
n><a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">&#43;86-13910161692=
</a>
<br>
E<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=A3=BA</span><a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>=
<br>
<span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=
=B8</span>-<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=CD=F8</=
span><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=C2=E7=D5=BD</span><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=C2=D4=D3=EB</span><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:SimSun">=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quo=
t;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=D5=B9=B2=BF</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quo=
t;PMingLiU&quot;,serif"><br>
</span>Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development=
 Dept</p>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border:none; border-top:s=
olid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:SimSun">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=
=BA</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;dr=
aft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">d=
raft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;sp=
ring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=
=D6=F7</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:SimSun">=
=CC=E2</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;MS M=
incho&quot;,serif">=A3=BA</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:SimSun">=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA</spa=
n></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">This draft breaks the SR=
 architecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture docu=
ment
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>, which=
 states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=A1=B0SR allows to enfor=
ce a flow through any topological path while maintaining per-flow state onl=
y at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=A1=B1
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">In addition to creating =
states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data pla=
ne and makes it unscalable. It also makes controller job much harder and er=
ror prune. In summary, I find the procedure
 very complex and unscalable. </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Regards =A1=AD Zafar </p=
>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt; color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black">spring &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accountin=
g-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-=
traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spr=
ing-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Hi&nbsp;<span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt; color:black">Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt; color:black">thank you for very well written and thought through d=
raft. I have these questions I'd like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol">=A1=A4</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt; f=
ont-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;
</span>Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR =
Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier&#43;Source SID cases but request two=
 special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier wou=
ld not have to lose the bit for C flag.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol">=A1=A4</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt; f=
ont-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;
</span>And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of cour=
se, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particu=
lar flow (SR Path Identifier&#43;Source SID). But in addition I'd propose t=
o use in-band mechanism, perhaps another
 special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flo=
w with the timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol">=A1=A4</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt; f=
ont-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;
</span>And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow=
. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained =
as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scop=
e, you may have to turn off/on the
 collection to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity,=
 per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flo=
w itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger relea=
se of counters.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt; margin-left:1.0in"><b=
r>
_______________________________________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">________________________=
_______________________ spring mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a> <a=
 href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring</a> </p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
Cc: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Well I still do not think we need anything new on the wire for this but
apparently half folks here do not get it ;)

So for those who need it we can just insert 8 octets of vxlan between label
stack and packet and use vnid as path id.

thx
r.

On Nov 16, 2017 14:46, "Xuxiaohu" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:

> Just an idea occurring in my mind: Maybe it's worthwhile to consider how
> to address this business demand by using the unified SR approach (
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-
> 100-mpls-04-draft-xu-mpls-unified-source-routing-instruction-ietf100/).
> More specifically, use the source port of the UDP tunnel header to carry
> the path identity, just like the idea of using the unified SR approach to
> address the load-balancing issue associated with the MPLS-SR.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Xuxiaohu
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Jeff Tantsura<jefftant.ietf@gmail.=
com>;Robert Raszuk<
> robert@raszuk.net>
> *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A *draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-s=
r-paths<draft-
> hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;Zafar Ali (zali)<zali@cisco.com>;Gre=
g
> Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A *Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels =
in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A *2017-11-16 14:25:32
>
>
> s/per flow/per path.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Xuxiaohu
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Jeff Tantsura<jefftant.ietf@gmail.=
com>;Robert Raszuk<
> robert@raszuk.net>
> *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A *draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-s=
r-paths<draft-
> hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;Greg Mirsky<
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>;spring<spring@ietf.org>;Zafar Ali (zali)<
> zali@cisco.com>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>
> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A *Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels =
in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A *2017-11-16 11:21:46
>
>
> If so, why not directly use RSVP-TE if the per flow state is needed?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Jeff Tantsura
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Robert Raszuk<robert@raszuk.net>
> *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A *Xuxiaohu<xuxiaohu@huawei.com>;Greg Mirsky<g=
regimirsky@gmail.com>;
> spring<spring@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;Zafar Ali (zali)<
> zali@cisco.com>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-
> hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A *Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels =
in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A *2017-11-16 11:09:13
>
> Today, if you run RSVP-TE, you=E2=80=99d get (at least on high end platfo=
rms)
> counters per LSP.
>
> Having the same functionality with SR seems rather logical.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> *From: *<rraszuk@gmail.com> on behalf of Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net=
>
> *Date: *Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:50
> *To: *Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
> *Cc: *Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
,
> spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <
> zali@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> As explained it is not needed to get all information required per path.
>
>
>
> Yes you may have N:1 mapping of flows to path so what is the problem ?
>
>
>
> thx
>
> r.
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 10:47, "Jeff Tantsura" <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Robert,
>
>
>
> HW counters are rather precious resources, but that=E2=80=99s beside the =
point.
>
> An architecture is not an immutable object, on contrary, a very import
> property of a good architecture is flexibility and agility, ability to
> adapt when business need arises.
>
>
>
> Keeping semantics aside =E2=80=93 what=E2=80=99s needed, is a metadata (h=
ere encoded as a
> label) that uniquely identifies a path, where FIB lookup would yield an
> =E2=80=9Ccounter hit=E2=80=9D, potentially counter creation if the packet=
 is the first
> packet in the flow. Value of the label would be hashed in the counter ID
> that is unique and could be resolved by a management layer into accountin=
g
> record.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Robert Raszuk <
> robert@raszuk.net>
> *Date: *Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:26
> *To: *Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc: *Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls
> <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>,
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not forwarding state.
>
>
>
> But no new labels are needed.
>
>
>
> See on ingress you apply sr label stack based on some match of the fields
> of actual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the very same
> fields of the packets on egress and you have path accounting required for
> you.
>
>
>
> Besides this method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long
> as such SFs do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.
>
>
>
> cheers,
>
> r.
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, "Xuxiaohu" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98**=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose lab=
els in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
> =C2=B7  Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both =
SR
> Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two
> special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
> would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>
> =C2=B7  And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
> course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the
> particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
> propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, =
to
> trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
> out-band to the predefined Collector.
>
> =C2=B7  And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per f=
low.
> In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained =
as
> long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope=
,
> you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters=
.
> I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for
> operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end o=
f
> the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
> _______________________________________________ spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">Well I still do not think we need anything new on the wir=
e for this but apparently half folks here do not get it ;)<div dir=3D"auto"=
><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">So for those who need it we can just insert 8 =
octets of vxlan between label stack and packet and use vnid as path id.</di=
v><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">thx</div><div dir=3D"auto">=
r.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On =
Nov 16, 2017 14:46, &quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@hua=
wei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex">




<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>Just an idea occurring in my mind: Maybe it&#39;s worthwhile to consid=
er how to address this business demand by using the unified SR approach (<a=
 href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-100-mpls=
-04-draft-xu-mpls-unified-source-routing-instruction-ietf100/" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>meeting/100/materials/slides-<wbr>1=
00-mpls-04-draft-xu-mpls-<wbr>unified-source-routing-<wbr>instruction-ietf1=
00/</a>).
 More specifically, use the source port of the UDP tunnel header to carry t=
he path identity, just like the idea of using the unified SR approach to ad=
dress the load-balancing issue associated with the MPLS-SR.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu<br>
M=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692=
</a> <br>
E=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu=
@huawei.com</a><br>
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #b5c=
4df;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;padding:8px">
<div><b>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Xuxiaohu</div>
<div><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Jeff Tantsura&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jefftant.ietf@gmail.<=
wbr>com</a>&gt;;Robert Raszuk&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" targe=
t=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A </b>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acc=
ounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accoun=
ting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>mpls=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt=
;;Zafar
 Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cis=
co.com</a>&gt;;Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose=
 labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A </b>2017-11-16 14:25:32</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
s/per flow/per path.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu<br>
M=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692=
</a> <br>
E=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu=
@huawei.com</a><br>
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #b5c=
4df;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;padding:8px">
<div><b>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Xuxiaohu</div>
<div><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Jeff Tantsura&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jefftant.ietf@gmail.<=
wbr>com</a>&gt;;Robert Raszuk&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" targe=
t=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A </b>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acc=
ounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accoun=
ting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;;Greg Mirsky&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;Zafar
 Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cis=
co.com</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">m=
p<wbr>ls@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose=
 labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A </b>2017-11-16 11:21:46</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
If so, why not directly use RSVP-TE if the per flow state is needed?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu<br>
M=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692=
</a> <br>
E=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu=
@huawei.com</a><br>
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #b5c=
4df;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;padding:8px">
<div><b>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Jeff Tantsura</div>
<div><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Robert Raszuk&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</=
div>
<div><b>=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A </b>Xuxiaohu&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxia=
ohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;;<wbr>Greg Mir=
sky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirs=
ky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">m<wbr>pls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;Zafar
 Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cis=
co.com</a>&gt;;draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ie=
tf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-f=
or-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose=
 labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A </b>2017-11-16 11:09:13</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-7956128838195332161WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">Today, if you run R=
SVP-TE, you=E2=80=99d get (at least on high end platforms) counters per LSP=
.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">Having the same fun=
ctionality with SR seems rather logical.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">Cheers,=
</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">Jeff</s=
pan><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:rraszuk@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rraszuk@gmail.com</a>&gt; on behalf=
 of Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank=
">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:50<br>
<b>To: </b>Jeff Tantsura &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">jefftant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregim=
irsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;, spring &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&=
gt;, mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.=
org</a>&gt;, &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.=
com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<=
wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffi=
c-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-tr=
affic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">As explained it is not ne=
eded to get all information required per path.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Yes you may have N:1 mapp=
ing of flows to path so what is the problem ?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">thx</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">r.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">On Nov 16, 2017 10:47, &q=
uot;Jeff Tantsura&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">jefftant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">Robert,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">HW counters are rather precious resources, but that=E2=80=99s besid=
e the point.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">An architecture is not an immutable object, on contrary, a very imp=
ort property of a good architecture is flexibility and agility, ability to =
adapt when business need arises. =C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">Keeping semantics aside =E2=80=93 what=E2=80=99s needed, is a metad=
ata (here encoded as a label) that uniquely identifies a path, where FIB lo=
okup would yield an =E2=80=9Ccounter hit=E2=80=9D, potentially counter
 creation if the packet is the first packet in the flow. Value of the label=
 would be hashed in the counter ID that is unique and could be resolved by =
a management layer into accounting record.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt;color:black">Cheers,</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt;color:black">Jeff</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.n=
et" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:26<br>
<b>To: </b>Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;, spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spr=
ing@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;, mpls &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=
=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>account=
ing-for-sr-paths &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accountin=
g-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>=
accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">The architecture is fine=
. This is accounting state not forwarding state.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">But no new labels are ne=
eded.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">See on ingress you apply=
 sr label stack based on some match of the fields of actual packet. So all =
you need is to do accounting on the very same fields of the packets on egre=
ss and you have path accounting required
 for you.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Besides this method also=
 seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long as such SFs do not mess w=
ith the packet content of those tuples.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">cheers,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">r.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &=
quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in">Con=
cur. Although it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my point=
 of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we =
would have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-al=
ign:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in"><sp=
an style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=
=99=8E</span> Xuxiaohu<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;PMingLiU&quot;,serif=
"><br>
</span>M<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=EF=BC=9A</=
span><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</a>
<br>
E<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=EF=BC=9A</span><a=
 href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com<=
/a><br>
<span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=
=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span>-<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&=
quot;,serif">=E7=BD=91</span><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=E7=BB=9C=
=E6=88=98</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E7=
=95=A5=E4=B8=8E</span><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=
=E5=8F=91</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E5=
=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;PMingLiU&quot;,serif=
"><br>
</span>Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development=
 Dept</p>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border:none;border-top:so=
lid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;line-height:15.0pt"><b><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=
=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;line-height:15.0pt"><b><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E6=
=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.=
5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<w=
br>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.=
<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;line-height:15.0pt"><b><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E4=
=B8=BB</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=E9=
=A2=98</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mi=
ncho&quot;,serif">=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;line-height:15.0pt"><b><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=
=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;line-height:15.0pt"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">This draft breaks the SR=
 architecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture docu=
ment
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13<=
/a>, which states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=E2=80=9CSR allows to en=
force a flow through any topological path while maintaining per-flow state =
only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">In addition to creating =
states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data pla=
ne and makes it unscalable. It also makes controller job much harder and er=
ror prune. In summary, I find the procedure
 very complex and unscalable. </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar =
</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;color:black">Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt;color:black">thank you for very well written and thought through dr=
aft. I have these questions I&#39;d like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0
</span>Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR =
Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two spe=
cial purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would n=
ot have to lose the bit for C flag.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0
</span>And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of cour=
se, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particu=
lar flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#39;d propose t=
o use in-band mechanism, perhaps another
 special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flo=
w with the timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0
</span>And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow=
. In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintai=
ned as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node =
scope, you may have to turn off/on the
 collection to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity,=
 per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flo=
w itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger relea=
se of counters.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in"><br=
>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">________________________=
______<wbr>_________________ spring mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a> <a=
 href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/spring</a> </p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

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Cc: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Adrian

I do not agree with with #2 .. no marker of any sort is needed.

And debugging LDP networks is no different then debugging IP networks so
sure some who are used to ATM/Frame Relay find it very hard to troubleshoot.

Best
r.


On Nov 16, 2017 13:35, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:

Let's unpick a couple of things...



1. This work is not talking about per-flow accounting, it is talking about
peer SR-path accounting

2. ipfix on its own does not cut it because you still have to put a marker
in the packets

3. Yes, SR assumes there is no (i.e. zero) state per SR-path in the network

But this third point causes a tension: we want to use SR because it is
good, but we want to do transit node diagnostics because (frankly) they are
necessary.

To get the full picture of why they are necessary read the draft, or
consider ECMP.



This discussion will not be unfamiliar to those who tried to debug LDP
networks.



Adrian

--94eb2c0756101f4117055e144628
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<div dir=3D"auto"><div>Adrian<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">=
I do not agree with with #2 .. no marker of any sort is needed.</div><div d=
ir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">And debugging LDP networks is no di=
fferent then debugging IP networks so sure some who are used to ATM/Frame R=
elay find it very hard to troubleshoot.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto">Best</div><div dir=3D"auto">r.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 16, 2017 13:35, &quot;Adrian =
Farrel&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk=
</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgc=
olor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"=
m_-1428235729880054663WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"c=
olor:#1f497d">Let&#39;s unpick a couple of things...<u></u><u></u></span></=
p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u>=
</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">1. This wor=
k is not talking about per-flow accounting, it is talking about peer SR-pat=
h accounting<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"=
color:#1f497d">2. ipfix on its own does not cut it because you still have t=
o put a marker in the packets<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">3. Yes, SR assumes there is no (i.e. zero) =
state per SR-path in the network<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">But this third point causes a tension: w=
e want to use SR because it is good, but we want to do transit node diagnos=
tics because (frankly) they are necessary.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">To get the full picture of why=
 they are necessary read the draft, or consider ECMP.<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">This discu=
ssion will not be unfamiliar to those who tried to debug LDP networks.<font=
 color=3D"#888888"><u></u><u></u></font></span></p><font color=3D"#888888">=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Adrian<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u><=
/u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></font></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>=
</div></div>

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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>,  Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Cc: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>,  Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org,  "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Folks,

This thread started and the requirements reported clearly stated that all
what we need is the ability to account per path traffic on egress nodes.

Now out of the sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to measure
per path in transit nodes.

Well you can do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or you can do it
with RSVP-TE.

SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But SR-MPLS never
intended to become connection oriented protocol nor architecture.

So I recommend we take a step back here. Or if you like first go and fix
basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to end path accounting in transit
nodes then come back here to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not the other way
around.

Thx
r.


On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein" <
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:

Greg,

I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that ability=
 to
measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
require OAM function for SR.



I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_te=
xt=3D1>
draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.

The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
implementation report
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-repor=
t-00>
draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in any
case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.



I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.



Regards,

Sasha



Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>

Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>

Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com



*From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
*Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
*To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
*Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
*Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths



Dear All,

I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even they
will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
discussion of what measurement method to use.



Regards,

Greg



On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:

Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my point
of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
would have to make some compromise.

Best regards,
Xiaohu



------------------------------

=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept

*=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)

*=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>;d=
raft-hegde-spring-traffic-
accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.or=
g
>

*=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels =
in
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

*=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10



Hi,



This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract
of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:

=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while mai=
ntaining
per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D



In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
procedure very complex and unscalable.



Thanks



Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar





*From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
gregimirsky@gmail.com>
*Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
*To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.or=
g"
<mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
*Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
accounting-for-sr-paths



Hi Shraddha,

thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
questions I'd like to discuss:

   - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
   Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two
   special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
   would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
   - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
   course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the
   particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
   propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label,=
 to
   trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
   out-band to the predefined Collector.
   - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow.
   In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained=
 as
   long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scop=
e,
   you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counter=
s.
   I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for
   operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end =
of
   the measurement and trigger release of counters.

Regards,

Greg



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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div>Folks,<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">=
This thread started and the requirements reported clearly stated that all w=
hat we need is the ability to account per path traffic on egress nodes.</di=
v><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Now out of the sudden I see=
 requirement popping up to be able to measure per path in transit nodes.</d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Well you can do it today w=
ith SRv6 if your hardware allows or you can do it with RSVP-TE.</div><div d=
ir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and adds a=
bility for limited TE. But SR-MPLS never intended to become connection orie=
nted protocol nor architecture.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto">So I recommend we take a step back here. Or if you like first go =
and fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to end path accounting in tran=
sit nodes then come back here to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not the other=
 way around.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Thx</div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto">r.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote">On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, &quot;Alexander Vainshtein&quot; &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitel=
e.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_8433015125869636717WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Greg,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I concur with your position: let=E2=
=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that ability to measure traffic carried by=
 an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require OAM function
 for SR.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have looked up the
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?=
include_text=3D1" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there=
. <u></u>
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The only time measurements are mentio=
ned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementa=
tion-report-00" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.=C2=
=A0 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevan=
t, IMHO, for this discussion.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have added the authors of the SR OA=
M Use Cases draft to tis thread.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office: <a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6=
302" value=3D"+97239266302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a><u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <=
a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" value=3D"+972549266302" target=3D"_blank"=
>+972-549266302</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:=
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ec=
itele.<wbr>com</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p><div cla=
ss=3D"elided-text">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear All,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy=
 network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troublesh=
oot the network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopt=
ers but even they will likely request
 that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their operational needs. I s=
ee that this work clearly describes the problem and why ability to quantify=
 the flow behavior at internal nodes is important for efficient network ope=
ration. First let&#39;s discuss whether
 the case and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can contin=
ue to discussion of what measurement method to use.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Concur. Although it h=
as some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my point of view. Network =
simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we would have to make=
 some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span> Xuxiaohu<br=
>
M<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=
=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</a>
<br>
E<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=
=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><b=
r>
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E4=
=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span>-<span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=BD=91</span><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=
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Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E5=8F=
=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt=
">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=
=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<w=
br>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.=
<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b><span=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-=
serif">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E6=97=
=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13<=
/a>, which states:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any top=
ological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to=
 the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error
 prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex and unscalable. <u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-=
bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on beha=
lf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path Id=
entifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special pu=
rpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have=
 to lose the bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course, a C=
ontroller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular flo=
w (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#39;d propose to use i=
n-band mechanism, perhaps another special
 purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with t=
he timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<u></u><u></u></li><li cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">
And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Sc=
alability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintained as =
long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, =
you may have to turn off/on the collection
 to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow g=
ranularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself ma=
y be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of count=
ers.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div>
<br clear=3D"both">
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

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From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
Thread-Index: AQHTXoKFTKbHXOOPI0aAZPfc8nVFiqMWo0oAgABcRwA=
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 08:25:09 +0000
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 16:33:10 +0800
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To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Cc: Xiaohu Xu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi Zafar, et.al,
as I'm the one who have started the thread I'd like to clarify and
reiterate my point Performance measurements are required not only e2e but
on a span, i.e. SPME, using MPLS-TO lingo. If we agree on that, then we are
ready to discuss how to support these measurements in SR-MPLS.

Regards, Greg

On Nov 16, 2017 4:25 PM, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
>
>
> I also agree that it=E2=80=99s not a question on requirement but about a =
procedure
> (in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths) that breaks SR
> Architecture, highly unscalable and complicated to implement. We can solv=
e
> this problem without breaking the SR architecture. We plan to write a dra=
ft
> before the next IETF.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 9:54 PM
> *To: *Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Cc: *"Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc=
ounting-for-sr-paths
> <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *RE: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> I fully agree with you that OAM tools are important.
>
> I just felt that the approach as proposed in the draft would enconter the
> same terrible issues as those associated with the MPLS-SR entropy label
> usage due to RLD and MSD hardware limitations.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Xuxiaohu<xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
>
> *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)<zali@cisco.com>;draft-hegd=
e-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98**=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose lab=
els in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 10:27:55
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98**=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose lab=
els in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>

--94eb2c1ce7fa709b10055e157872
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">Hi Zafar, <a href=3D"http://et.al">et.al</a>,=C2=A0<div d=
ir=3D"auto">as I&#39;m the one who have started the thread I&#39;d like to =
clarify and reiterate my point Performance measurements are required not on=
ly e2e but on a span, i.e. SPME, using MPLS-TO lingo. If we agree on that, =
then we are ready to discuss how to support these measurements in SR-MPLS.<=
/div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Regards, Greg=C2=A0</div=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 16,=
 2017 4:25 PM, &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisc=
o.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">







<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_5851228013806798694WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Folks, <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I also agree that it=E2=80=99s not a question on req=
uirement but about a procedure (in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounti=
ng-for-sr-paths) that breaks SR Architecture, highly unscalable and complic=
ated to implement. We can solve this problem without
 breaking the SR architecture. We plan to write a draft before the next IET=
F. <u></u>
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Xuxiaohu &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a=
>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 9:54 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wb=
r>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-=
accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traf=
fic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, spring &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>=
&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">I fully agree with yo=
u that OAM tools are important.
<br>
<br>
I just felt that the approach as proposed in the draft would enconter the s=
ame terrible issues as those associated with the MPLS-SR entropy label usag=
e due to RLD and MSD hardware limitations.
<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span> Xuxia=
ohu<br>
M<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=EF=BC=9A</span><a=
 href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</a>
<br>
E<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=EF=BC=9A</span><a=
 href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com<=
/a><br>
<span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=
=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span>-<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&=
quot;,serif">=E7=BD=91</span><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=E7=BB=9C=
=E6=88=98</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E7=
=95=A5=E4=B8=8E</span><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=
=E5=8F=91</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E5=
=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in =
0in 0in" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span>=
</b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=
=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Xuxiaohu&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:x=
uxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=
=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;draft-<wbr>=
hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draf=
t-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org<=
/a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@iet=
f.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b=
><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=E9=A2=98</span></b><b=
><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=
=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 10:27:55<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear All, <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy=
 network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troublesh=
oot the network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopt=
ers but even they will likely request
 that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their operational needs. I s=
ee that this work clearly describes the problem and why ability to quantify=
 the flow behavior at internal nodes is important for efficient network ope=
ration. First let&#39;s discuss whether
 the case and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can contin=
ue to discussion of what measurement method to use.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Concur. Although it h=
as some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my point of view. Network =
simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we would have to make=
 some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span> Xuxia=
ohu<br>
M<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=EF=BC=9A</span><a=
 href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</a>
<br>
E<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=EF=BC=9A</span><a=
 href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com<=
/a><br>
<span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=
=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span>-<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&=
quot;,serif">=E7=BD=91</span><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=E7=BB=9C=
=E6=88=98</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E7=
=95=A5=E4=B8=8E</span><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=
=E5=8F=91</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E5=
=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in =
0in 0in" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span>=
</b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=
=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<w=
br>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.=
<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b=
><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=E9=A2=98</span></b><b=
><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=
=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13<=
/a>, which states:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any top=
ological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to=
 the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error
 prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex and unscalable. <u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">
Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path Id=
entifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special pu=
rpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have=
 to lose the bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:0in">
And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course, a C=
ontroller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular flo=
w (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#39;d propose to use i=
n-band mechanism, perhaps another special
 purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with t=
he timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<u></u><u></u></li><li cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">
And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Sc=
alability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintained as =
long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, =
you may have to turn off/on the collection
 to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow g=
ranularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself ma=
y be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of count=
ers.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

--94eb2c1ce7fa709b10055e157872--


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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 17:15:07 +0800
Message-ID: <CA+RyBmUE1vZd-T8mrNmrf8FbP_fGhzLvn9kEQQ3A=FUJazJQMg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Cc: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  spring <spring@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>,  "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/Qt1DTsMlV6l02ASGc-euKaM90yQ>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi Sasha,
many thanks.
I'd point to SR OAM Requirements
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-sr-oam-requirement-03>
(regrettably expired):

   REQ#13:  SR OAM MUST have the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet
            Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synthetic
            probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.


I think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document
is useful at least for as long as we're developing OAM toolset. And
the document will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion
that PM may be performed both e2e and over SPME.


Regards,

Greg


On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:

> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abili=
ty to
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
> require OAM function for SR.
>
>
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_=
text=3D1>
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
> implementation report
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-rep=
ort-00>
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in any
> case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
> two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.
>
>
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose label=
s in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
> delete the original
> and all copies thereof.
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Sasha,<div>many thanks.</div><div>I&#39;d point to <a h=
ref=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-sr-oam-requirement-03"=
>SR OAM Requirements</a> (regrettably expired):</div><div><pre class=3D"gma=
il-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;c=
olor:rgb(0,0,0)">   REQ#13:  SR OAM MUST have the ability to measure Packet=
 loss, Packet
            Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synthetic
            probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.</pre><pre class=3D=
"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0=
px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"margin=
-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica=
, sans-serif" style=3D"">I think that our discussion indicates that OAM req=
uirements document is useful at least for as long as we&#39;re developing O=
AM toolset. And the document will benefit from clarification to reflect our=
 discussion that PM may be performed both e2e and over SPME.</font></pre><p=
re class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:=
rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif" style=3D""><br></fo=
nt></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom=
:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif" style=3D=
"">Regards,</font></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0p=
x;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-=
serif" style=3D"">Greg</font></pre></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Va=
inshtein <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecite=
le.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-2858281648368226202WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Greg,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I concur with your position: let=E2=
=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that ability to measure traffic carried by=
 an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require OAM function
 for SR.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have looked up the
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?=
include_text=3D1" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there=
. <u></u>
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The only time measurements are mentio=
ned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementa=
tion-report-00" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.=C2=
=A0 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevan=
t, IMHO, for this discussion.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have added the authors of the SR OA=
M Use Cases draft to tis thread.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office: <a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6=
302" value=3D"+97239266302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a><u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <=
a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" value=3D"+972549266302" target=3D"_blank"=
>+972-549266302</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:=
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ec=
itele.<wbr>com</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><di=
v class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear All,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy=
 network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troublesh=
oot the network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopt=
ers but even they will likely request
 that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their operational needs. I s=
ee that this work clearly describes the problem and why ability to quantify=
 the flow behavior at internal nodes is important for efficient network ope=
ration. First let&#39;s discuss whether
 the case and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can contin=
ue to discussion of what measurement method to use.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Concur. Although it h=
as some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my point of view. Network =
simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we would have to make=
 some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span> Xuxiaohu<br=
>
M<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=
=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</a>
<br>
E<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=
=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><b=
r>
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E4=
=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span>-<span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=BD=91</span><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=
=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E5=8F=
=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt=
">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=
=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<w=
br>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.=
<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b><span=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-=
serif">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E6=97=
=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13<=
/a>, which states:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any top=
ological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to=
 the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error
 prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex and unscalable. <u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-=
bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on beha=
lf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path Id=
entifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special pu=
rpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have=
 to lose the bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course, a C=
ontroller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular flo=
w (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#39;d propose to use i=
n-band mechanism, perhaps another special
 purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with t=
he timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<u></u><u></u></li><li cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">
And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Sc=
alability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintained as =
long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, =
you may have to turn off/on the collection
 to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow g=
ranularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself ma=
y be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of count=
ers.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div>
<br clear=3D"both">
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is <br>
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
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transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original <br>
and all copies thereof.<br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
</div>


</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a11401f6a74f644055e160e8a--


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From: <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
To: <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, <spring@ietf.org>, <zali@cisco.com>, <mpls@ietf.org>, <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/Hr8gaNeEGa9h0M_5qgU0SHP8-ww>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
To: <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
CC: <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, <spring@ietf.org>, <zali@cisco.com>, <mpls@ietf.org>, <mach.chen@huawei.com>,  <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, <robert@raszuk.net>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Cc: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>,  Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>,  "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>,  "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
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Greg,

It is easy to support req 13 counters but those are interface counters
without history to which sr-mpls path it belongs.

SR-MPLS is *NOT* connection oriented and since you are poping domain wide
labels you have no path history in transit nodes.

So if anyone here now attempts to make SR-MPLS to become connection
oriented and carry and inspect per path ID in transit nodes this is
fundamental change.

Perhaps SR-MPLS spec should explicitely clarify in version 12 that this is
not the intended objective of sr-mpls.

thx
r.


On Nov 16, 2017 17:15, "Greg Mirsky" <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Sasha,
many thanks.
I'd point to SR OAM Requirements
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-sr-oam-requirement-03>
(regrettably expired):

   REQ#13:  SR OAM MUST have the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet
            Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synthetic
            probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.


I think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document
is useful at least for as long as we're developing OAM toolset. And
the document will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion
that PM may be performed both e2e and over SPME.


Regards,

Greg


On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:

> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abili=
ty to
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
> require OAM function for SR.
>
>
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_=
text=3D1>
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
> implementation report
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-rep=
ort-00>
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in any
> case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
> two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.
>
>
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc
> ounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-
> for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose label=
s in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr
> aft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
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> and all copies thereof.
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>


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<div dir=3D"auto"><div>Greg,<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I=
t is easy to support req 13 counters but those are interface counters witho=
ut history to which sr-mpls path it belongs.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto">SR-MPLS is *NOT* connection oriented and since you are=
 poping domain wide labels you have no path history in transit nodes.</div>=
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">So if anyone here now attempt=
s to make SR-MPLS to become connection oriented and carry and inspect per p=
ath ID in transit nodes this is fundamental change.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=
<br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Perhaps SR-MPLS spec should explicitely clarify=
 in version 12 that this is not the intended objective of sr-mpls.</div><di=
v dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">thx</div><div dir=3D"auto">r.</d=
iv><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 16,=
 2017 17:15, &quot;Greg Mirsky&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmai=
l.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockq=
uote class=3D"quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Sasha,<div>many thanks.</div><div>I&#=
39;d point to <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-sr-o=
am-requirement-03" target=3D"_blank">SR OAM Requirements</a> (regrettably e=
xpired):</div><div><pre class=3D"m_-8099777619497475399gmail-newpage" style=
=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">=
   REQ#13:  SR OAM MUST have the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet
            Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synthetic
            probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.</pre><pre class=3D=
"m_-8099777619497475399gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-t=
op:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></pre><pre class=3D"m_-80997=
77619497475399gmail-newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;colo=
r:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">I think that our =
discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is useful at least for =
as long as we&#39;re developing OAM toolset. And the document will benefit =
from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be performed both =
e2e and over SPME.</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_-8099777619497475399gmail-ne=
wpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font fa=
ce=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br></font></pre><pre class=3D"m_-80997=
77619497475399gmail-newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;colo=
r:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Regards,</font></=
pre><pre class=3D"m_-8099777619497475399gmail-newpage" style=3D"margin-top:=
0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, san=
s-serif">Greg</font></pre></div></div><div class=3D"elided-text"><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:1=
1 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexande=
r.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<w=
br>com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-8099777619497475399m_-2858281648368226202WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Greg,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I concur with your position: let=E2=
=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that ability to measure traffic carried by=
 an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require OAM function
 for SR.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have looked up the
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?=
include_text=3D1" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there=
. <u></u>
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The only time measurements are mentio=
ned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementa=
tion-report-00" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.=C2=
=A0 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevan=
t, IMHO, for this discussion.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have added the authors of the SR OA=
M Use Cases draft to tis thread.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office: <a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6=
302" value=3D"+97239266302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a><u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <=
a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" value=3D"+972549266302" target=3D"_blank"=
>+972-549266302</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:=
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ec=
itele.c<wbr>om</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>counting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.org</a><wbr>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><di=
v class=3D"m_-8099777619497475399h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear All,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy=
 network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troublesh=
oot the network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopt=
ers but even they will likely request
 that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their operational needs. I s=
ee that this work clearly describes the problem and why ability to quantify=
 the flow behavior at internal nodes is important for efficient network ope=
ration. First let&#39;s discuss whether
 the case and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can contin=
ue to discussion of what measurement method to use.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Concur. Although it h=
as some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my point of view. Network =
simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we would have to make=
 some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span> Xuxiaohu<br=
>
M<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=
=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</a>
<br>
E<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=
=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><b=
r>
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E4=
=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span>-<span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=BD=91</span><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=
=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E5=8F=
=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt=
">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=
=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<w=
br>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">draft-heg<wbr>de-spring-traffic-accounting-<wbr>for-sr-paths@ietf.=
org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mp<w=
br>ls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@<wbr>ietf.org</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b><span=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-=
serif">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E6=97=
=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr<wbr>aft-ietf-spring-segment-routin<wbr>g-13<=
/a>, which states:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any top=
ological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to=
 the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error
 prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex and unscalable. <u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-=
bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on beha=
lf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>co=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>counting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path Id=
entifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special pu=
rpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have=
 to lose the bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course, a C=
ontroller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular flo=
w (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#39;d propose to use i=
n-band mechanism, perhaps another special
 purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with t=
he timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<u></u><u></u></li><li cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">
And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Sc=
alability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintained as =
long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, =
you may have to turn off/on the collection
 to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow g=
ranularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself ma=
y be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of count=
ers.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div>
<br clear=3D"both">
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is <br>
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
ved this <br>
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original <br>
and all copies thereof.<br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
</div>


</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/spring</a><br=
>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

--94eb2c1cb82ce7f5d7055e16773f--


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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>,  Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 09:50:58 +0000
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Subject: [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
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Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/oSWB52JxuMIb4Kts5erSxIeYXAw>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From nobody Thu Nov 16 01:56:40 2017
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From: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
To: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 09:56:27 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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From: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
To: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 10:00:17 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 18:18:54 +0800
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To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Cc: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  spring <spring@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>,  "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi Sasha,
completely agree that the current version of the #13 does not reflect the
use case at hand. Thus my suggestion to edit #13, update the Requirements
document to reflect the use case and keep the SR OAM requirements document
alive, not necessary to publish, for similar occasions.
In regards to SPME, Dave's wording is perfect and I withdraw mine.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 5:46 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:

> Greg,
>
> I do not think that the quoted requirement from the SR OAM Requirements
> draft is relevant for this discussion, because, from my POV, it does not
> refer to *ability to measure* *actual traffic carried in a specific SR-TE
> LSP across a specific link in the transit node*. And this is actually
> what draft-hegde is all about.
>
>
>
> I also do not see how SPME (an ill-begotten MPLS-TP construct) is relevan=
t
> for this discussion.
>
>
>
> As for the added state in transit node: From mu POV ability to recognize
> specific SR-TE Path ID in the label stack of a packet and to update the
> counters allocated to this SR-TE Path is a forwarding plane state.
>
>
>
> My 2c,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Greg Mirsky [mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 11:15 AM
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>=
;
> Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Sasha,
>
> many thanks.
>
> I'd point to SR OAM Requirements
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-sr-oam-requirement-03>
> (regrettably expired):
>
>    REQ#13:  SR OAM MUST have the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet
>
>             Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synthetic
>
>             probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.
>
>
>
> I think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is u=
seful at least for as long as we're developing OAM toolset. And the documen=
t will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be =
performed both e2e and over SPME.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abili=
ty to
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
> require OAM function for SR.
>
>
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_=
text=3D1>
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
> implementation report
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-rep=
ort-00>
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in any
> case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
> two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.
>
>
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose label=
s in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
> delete the original
> and all copies thereof.
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
> delete the original
> and all copies thereof.
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>

--94eb2c074a2095d01c055e16f2e6
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Sasha,<div>completely agree that the current version of=
 the #13 does not reflect the use case at hand. Thus my suggestion to edit =
#13, update the Requirements document to reflect the use case and keep the =
SR OAM requirements document alive, not necessary to publish, for similar o=
ccasions.</div><div>In regards to SPME, Dave&#39;s wording is perfect and I=
 withdraw mine.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 16, =
2017 at 5:46 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein=
@ecitele.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-418559395824718156WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Greg,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I do not think that the quoted requir=
ement from the SR OAM Requirements draft is relevant for this discussion, b=
ecause, from my POV, it does not refer to
<b><i>ability to measure</i></b> <b><i>actual traffic carried in a specific=
 SR-TE LSP across a specific link in the transit node</i></b>. And this is =
actually what draft-hegde is all about.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I also do not see how SPME (an ill-be=
gotten MPLS-TP construct) is relevant for this discussion.<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">As for the added state in transit nod=
e: From mu POV ability to recognize specific SR-TE Path ID in the label sta=
ck of a packet and to update the counters allocated
 to this SR-TE Path is a forwarding plane state.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">My 2c,<u></u><u></u></span></p><span =
class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office: <a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6=
302" value=3D"+97239266302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a><u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <=
a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" value=3D"+972549266302" target=3D"_blank"=
>+972-549266302</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:=
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ec=
itele.<wbr>com</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</span><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Greg Mirsky [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.c=
om</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 11:15 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@=
ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt=
;<span class=3D""><br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Xuxiaohu=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huaw=
ei.com</a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">M=
ichael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-s=
pring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase=
@<wbr>ietf.org</a><br>
</span></span></p><div><div class=3D"h5"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring=
] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-=
sr-paths<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Sasha,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">many thanks.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;d point to <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/h=
tml/draft-ietf-spring-sr-oam-requirement-03" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Requirements</a> (regrettably expired):<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 REQ#13:=C2=A0 SR OAM MUST hav=
e the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synth=
etic<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.<u></u=
><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">I=
 think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is usef=
ul at least for as long as we&#39;re developing OAM toolset. And the docume=
nt will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be=
 performed both e2e and over SPME.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u=
><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">R=
egards,</span><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">G=
reg</span><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtei=
n &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Greg,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I concur with your position: let=E2=
=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that ability to measure traffic carried by=
 an
 SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require OAM function for SR.</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have looked up the
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?=
include_text=3D1" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there=
. </span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The only time measurements are mentio=
ned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementa=
tion-report-00" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.=C2=
=A0 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevan=
t, IMHO, for this discussion.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have added the authors of the SR OA=
M Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">z=
ali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear All,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy=
 network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troublesh=
oot the network. True, some will brave the challenge
 and be the early adopters but even they will likely request that the OAM t=
oolbox be sufficient to support their operational needs. I see that this wo=
rk clearly describes the problem and why ability to quantify the flow behav=
ior at internal nodes is important
 for efficient network operation. First let&#39;s discuss whether the case =
and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to disc=
ussion of what measurement method to use.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Concur. Although it h=
as some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my point of view. Network =
simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we would have to make=
 some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span> Xuxiaohu<br=
>
M<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=
=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</a>
<br>
E<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=
=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><b=
r>
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E4=
=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span>-<span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=BD=91</span><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=
=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quo=
t;,sans-serif">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)</span><u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E6=
=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.=
5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<w=
br>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.=
<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E4=
=B8=BB</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Micro=
soft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quo=
t;,sans-serif">=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span><u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13<=
/a>, which states:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any top=
ological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to=
 the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error
 prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex and unscalable. <u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-=
bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on beha=
lf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path Id=
entifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special pu=
rpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have=
 to lose the bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course, a C=
ontroller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular flo=
w (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#39;d propose to use i=
n-band mechanism, perhaps another special
 purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with t=
he timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<u></u><u></u></li><li cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">
And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Sc=
alability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintained as =
long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, =
you may have to turn off/on the collection
 to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow g=
ranularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself ma=
y be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of count=
ers.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is
<br>
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
ved this
<br>
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original
<br>
and all copies thereof.<br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<br clear=3D"both">
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is <br>
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
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transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
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______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
</div></div></div>


</blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
To: <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
CC: <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, <spring@ietf.org>, <mpls@ietf.org>, <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/_SceWboBeAB83bsVUh1aMU3INfk>
Subject: Re: [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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From: <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: spring <spring@ietf.org>, Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 10:48:46 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 11:52:59 +0100
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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/* resending and I got suppressed due to exceeding # of recipients */

Dave,

Two main fundamental points:

1.

Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths are end to end (ingress to
egress) of a given domain ?

SR does not require end to end paths. In fact this is most beauty of SR
that you can add one label to forward packets to different node in SPF
topology and you make sure that traffic will be natively flowing from there
over disjoined path to native path.

How in those deployment cases all of those discussions here even apply ?

2.

To make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR segments are
tightly coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments are not coupled
to each other and in fact can be chosen dynamically in transit nodes. In
those cases there is no concept of SR PATH at all.

Thx,
R.

On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com=
>
wrote:

> I=E2=80=99d rephrase this to be a bit more solution agnostic=E2=80=A6.
>
>
>
> 1.       Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achieved with pairwise
> measurement points).
>
>
>
> 2.       Are transit measurement points required as well=E2=80=A6..
>
>
>
> BTW transmit measurement points without e2e measurement points strikes me
> as bizarre=E2=80=A6.
>
>
>
> The view from here
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Mach Chen
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM
> *To:* Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>; Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org;
> Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
> *Subject:* [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for
> MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I agree with Sasha and Greg here!
>
>
>
> I think the first thing we need to agree on the requirements, then discus=
s
> the solution will make more sense. I would ask the following questions:
>
>
>
> 1.       Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
> 2.       Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
> 3.       Are both E2E and SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; spring; mpls;
> Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali
> (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Sasha,
>
> many thanks.
>
> I'd point to SR OAM Requirements
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-sr-oam-requirement-03>
> (regrettably expired):
>
>    REQ#13:  SR OAM MUST have the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet
>
>             Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synthetic
>
>             probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.
>
>
>
> I think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is u=
seful at least for as long as we're developing OAM toolset. And the documen=
t will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be =
performed both e2e and over SPME.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abili=
ty to
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
> require OAM function for SR.
>
>
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_=
text=3D1>
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
> implementation report
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-rep=
ort-00>
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in any
> case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
> two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.
>
>
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose label=
s in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
> delete the original
> and all copies thereof.
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><div class=3D"gmail_default">/* resendi=
ng and I got suppressed due to exceeding # of recipients */=C2=A0</div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default">Dave,</div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default">Two mai=
n fundamental points:=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_default">1.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><br></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default">Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths=
 are end to end (ingress to egress) of a given domain ?</div><div class=3D"=
gmail_default"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default">SR does not require e=
nd to end paths. In fact this is most beauty of SR that you can add one lab=
el to forward packets to different node in SPF topology and you make sure t=
hat traffic will be natively flowing from there over disjoined path to nati=
ve path.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_default">How in those deployment cases all of those discussions here ev=
en apply ?</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
default">2.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><div class=3D=
"gmail_default">To make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR se=
gments are tightly coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments are =
not coupled to each other and in fact can be chosen dynamically in transit =
nodes. In those cases there is no concept of SR PATH at all.=C2=A0</div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default">Thx,</div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_default">R.</div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"=
><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David All=
an I <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-84672208534897471WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">I=E2=80=99d rephrase this to be a bit more solution=
 agnostic=E2=80=A6.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-84672208534897471MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.5in=
">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif"><span>1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achi=
eved with pairwise measurement points).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-84672208534897471MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.5in=
">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif"><span>2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Are transit measurement points required as wel=
l=E2=80=A6..<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">BTW transmit measurement points without e2e measure=
ment points strikes me as bizarre=E2=80=A6.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">The view from here<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Dave<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [mailto:<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org<=
/a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mach Chen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Va=
inshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Goro=
khovsky@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-u=
secase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.=
org</a>;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">z=
ali@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement =
for MPLS-SR is needed?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi all,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I agree with Sasha and Greg here!<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I think the first thing we need to ag=
ree on the requirements, then discuss the solution will make more sense. I =
would ask the following
 questions:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-84672208534897471MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25i=
n">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d"><span>1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-S=
R?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-84672208534897471MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25i=
n">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d"><span>2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-=
SR?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-84672208534897471MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25i=
n">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d"><span>3.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Are both E2E and SPME PM needed =
for MPLS-SR?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Best regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Mach<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths; spring;=
 mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Hi Sasha,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>many thanks.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>I&#39;d point to <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf=
.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-sr-oam-requirement-03" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Requirements</a> (regrettably expired):<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 REQ#13:=C2=
=A0 SR OAM MUST have the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet<u></u><u></=
u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Delay or Delay variation using A=
ctive (using synthetic<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 probe) and Passive (using data s=
tream) mode.<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">I=
 think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is usef=
ul at least for as long as we&#39;re developing OAM toolset. And the docume=
nt will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be=
 performed both e2e and over SPME.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u=
><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">R=
egards,</span><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">G=
reg</span><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vai=
nshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_=
blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Greg,</span><span><u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I concur with your position: let=E2=
=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that ability to measure
 traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require OA=
M function for SR.</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><span><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have looked up the
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?=
include_text=3D1" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there=
. </span>
<span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The only time measurements are mentio=
ned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementa=
tion-report-00" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.=C2=
=A0 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevan=
t, IMHO, for this discussion.</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><span><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have added the authors of the SR OA=
M Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><span><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,</span><span><u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha</span><span><u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><span><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><span><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">
 mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mp=
ls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">z=
ali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span><u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Dear All,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>I cannot imagine that operators will agree to =
deploy network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and tro=
ubleshoot the network.
 True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even the=
y will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their o=
perational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and wh=
y ability to quantify the flow behavior
 at internal nodes is important for efficient network operation. First let&=
#39;s discuss whether the case and requirement towards OAM is real and vali=
d. Then we can continue to discussion of what measurement method to use.<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Greg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span>Concur. Althoug=
h it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my point of view. Ne=
twork simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence
 we would have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
>
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</sp=
an><span> Xuxiaohu<br>
M</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=
=EF=BC=9A</span><span><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86=
-13910161692</a>
<br>
E</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=
=EF=BC=9A</span><span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&q=
uot;,sans-serif">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=
=A1=88</span><span>-</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;=
MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=BD=91</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:=
&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=
=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in =
0in 0in" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microso=
ft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></=
b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)</span><span><u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Goth=
ic&quot;">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"Z=
H-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<w=
br>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.=
<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Goth=
ic&quot;">=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10=
.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=
=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</spa=
n><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microso=
ft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><spa=
n lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span><span=
><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">=C2=A0</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Hi,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am qu=
oting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13<=
/a>, which states:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=E2=80=9C</span><span>SR allows=
 to enforce a flow through any topological path while maintaining
 per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.<span lang=3D"ZH=
-CN">=E2=80=9D </span>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>In addition to creating states at transit and =
egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscal=
able. It also makes
 controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the procedu=
re very complex and unscalable.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Regards
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=E2=80=A6</span> Zafar <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-=
bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on beha=
lf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Hi=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt=
;color:black">Shraddha,</span><span>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">
<span>Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR P=
ath Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two spec=
ial purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would
 not have to lose the bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D=
"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">
<span>And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of cours=
e, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particul=
ar flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#39;d propose to
 use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger t=
he LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the=
 predefined Collector.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0in">
<span>And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow.=
 In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintain=
ed as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node s=
cope,
 you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters.=
 I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for o=
perators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of t=
he measurement and trigger release
 of counters.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Greg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><br>
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__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
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______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
CC: spring <spring@ietf.org>, Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
CC: mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/VDwuoP5i4Xein-SUH38ANDp8mPM>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">We are dealing with an SR network in which the data plane is MPLS rath=
er than IP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">Yours Irrespectively,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">John<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] <b>=
On Behalf Of
</b>Xuxiaohu<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 1:47 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jeff Tantsura &lt;jefftant.ietf@gmail.com&gt;; Robert Raszuk &lt=
;robert@raszuk.net&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org&gt;; spring &lt;spring@i=
etf.org&gt;; Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;zali@cisco.com&gt;; mpls &lt;mpls@ietf.or=
g&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun">Just an idea occurring in my mind: Maybe it'=
s worthwhile to consider how to address this business demand by using the u=
nified SR approach (<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/mat=
erials/slides-100-mpls-04-draft-xu-mpls-unified-source-routing-instruction-=
ietf100/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-100-mpl=
s-04-draft-xu-mpls-unified-source-routing-instruction-ietf100/</a>).
 More specifically, use the source port of the UDP tunnel header to carry t=
he path identity, just like the idea of using the unified SR approach to ad=
dress the load-balancing issue associated with the MPLS-SR.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun">
<hr size=3D"3" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" =
style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun">=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2</span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"> Xuxiaohu<br>
M<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=A3=BA</span><a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43=
;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=A3=BA</span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">x=
uxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8</span>-<spa=
n lang=3D"ZH-CN">=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=
=BF</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in =
0in 0in" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">Xuxiaohu<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">Jeff Tantsur=
a&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com">jefftant.ietf@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;;Robert Raszuk&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.ne=
t</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">draft-hegde-=
spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spr=
ing-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac=
counting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@i=
etf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">m=
pls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;Zafar
 Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;Gre=
g Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">Re: [spring]=
 [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for=
-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">2017-11-16 1=
4:25:32<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"><br>
s/per flow/per path.<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun">
<hr size=3D"3" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" =
style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun">=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2</span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"> Xuxiaohu<br>
M<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=A3=BA</span><a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43=
;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=A3=BA</span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">x=
uxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8</span>-<spa=
n lang=3D"ZH-CN">=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=
=BF</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in =
0in 0in" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">Xuxiaohu<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">Jeff Tantsur=
a&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com">jefftant.ietf@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;;Robert Raszuk&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.ne=
t</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">draft-hegde-=
spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spr=
ing-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac=
counting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;Greg
 Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;=
;Zafar Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&g=
t;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">Re: [spring]=
 [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for=
-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">2017-11-16 1=
1:21:46<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"><br>
If so, why not directly use RSVP-TE if the per flow state is needed?<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun">
<hr size=3D"3" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" =
style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun">=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2</span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"> Xuxiaohu<br>
M<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=A3=BA</span><a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43=
;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=A3=BA</span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">x=
uxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8</span>-<spa=
n lang=3D"ZH-CN">=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=
=BF</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in =
0in 0in" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">Jeff Tantsur=
a<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">Robert Raszu=
k&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">Xuxiaohu&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;;Greg Mir=
sky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpl=
s&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;Zafar
 Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;dra=
ft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-=
hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">Re: [spring]=
 [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for=
-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">2017-11-16 1=
1:09:13<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">Today, if you run R=
SVP-TE, you=A1=AFd get (at least on high end platforms) counters per LSP.</=
span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">Having the same fun=
ctionality with SR seems rather logical.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">&nbsp;</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">Cheers,=
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">Jeff</s=
pan><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">&nbsp;</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:rraszuk@gmail.com">rraszuk@gmail.com</a>&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:50<br>
<b>To: </b>Jeff Tantsura &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com">jef=
ftant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@hua=
wei.com</a>&gt;, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">g=
regimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;, spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org"=
>spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;, mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ie=
tf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@ci=
sco.com</a>&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"=
>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">As explained it is not ne=
eded to get all information required per path.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Yes you may have N:1 mapp=
ing of flows to path so what is the problem ?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">thx<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">r.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">On Nov 16, 2017 10:47, &q=
uot;Jeff Tantsura&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com">jeff=
tant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">Robert,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">HW counters are rather precious resources, but that=A1=AFs beside t=
he point.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">An architecture is not an immutable object, on contrary, a very imp=
ort property of a good architecture is flexibility and agility, ability to =
adapt when business need arises. &nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">Keeping semantics aside =A8C what=A1=AFs needed, is a metadata (her=
e encoded as a label) that uniquely identifies a path, where FIB lookup wou=
ld yield an =A1=B0counter hit=A1=B1, potentially counter
 creation if the packet is the first packet in the flow. Value of the label=
 would be hashed in the counter ID that is unique and could be resolved by =
a management layer into accounting record.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt;color:black">Cheers,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt;color:black">Jeff</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.n=
et" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:26<br>
<b>To: </b>Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;, spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spr=
ing@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;, mpls &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=
=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-f=
or-sr-paths &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for=
-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting=
-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">The architecture is fine=
. This is accounting state not forwarding state.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">But no new labels are ne=
eded.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">See on ingress you apply=
 sr label stack based on some match of the fields of actual packet. So all =
you need is to do accounting on the very same fields of the packets on egre=
ss and you have path accounting required
 for you.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Besides this method also=
 seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long as such SFs do not mess w=
ith the packet content of those tuples.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">cheers,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">r.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &=
quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in">
Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my point =
of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we w=
ould have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in">
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=D0=
=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2</span> Xuxiaohu<span style=3D"font-family:PMingLiU"><br>
</span>M<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,ser=
if">=A3=BA</span><a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">&#43=
;86-13910161692</a>
<br>
E<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=A3=
=BA</span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu=
@huawei.com</a><br>
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=
=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8</span>-<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;M=
S Mincho&quot;,serif">=CD=F8</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-famil=
y:SimSun">=C2=E7=D5=BD</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quo=
t;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=C2=D4=D3=EB</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"f=
ont-family:SimSun">=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"f=
ont-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=D5=B9=B2=BF</span><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:PMingLiU"><br>
</span>Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development=
 Dept<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in =
0in 0in" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;line-height:15.0pt"><b><s=
pan lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=B7=A2=BC=
=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt=
">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)</span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;line-height:15.0pt"><b><s=
pan lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&qu=
ot;,serif">=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=
=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;dr=
aft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">d=
raft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;sp=
ring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;line-height:15.0pt"><b><s=
pan lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&qu=
ot;,serif">=D6=F7</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5=
pt;font-family:SimSun">=CC=E2</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=A3=BA</span></b><b=
><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><o:=
p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;line-height:15.0pt"><b><s=
pan lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=CA=B1=BC=
=E4=A3=BA</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;line-height:15.0pt"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Hi, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">This draft breaks the SR=
 architecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture docu=
ment
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsegment-2Drouting-2D13&amp;d=3DDwMFbw&am=
p;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5=
LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DErmkx05sbKf8rezSgTWtbNoRU0NCkfX8LQAVXujS=
OTc&amp;s=3Def3tcju6yWwGb7J7MfjMpJVL5O0J7NJUr8vaEBuI1fk&amp;e=3D" target=3D=
"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>, which=
 states:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=A1=B0SR allows to enfor=
ce a flow through any topological path while maintaining per-flow state onl=
y at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=A1=B1
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">In addition to creating =
states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data pla=
ne and makes it unscalable. It also makes controller job much harder and er=
ror prune. In summary, I find the procedure
 very complex and unscalable. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Regards =A1=AD Zafar <o:=
p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accountin=
g-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-=
traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spr=
ing-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Hi&nbsp;<span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;color:black">Shraddha,</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt;color:black">thank you for very well written and thought through dr=
aft. I have these questions I'd like to discuss:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol">=A1=A4</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;
</span>Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR =
Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier&#43;Source SID cases but request two=
 special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier wou=
ld not have to lose the bit for C flag.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol">=A1=A4</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;
</span>And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of cour=
se, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particu=
lar flow (SR Path Identifier&#43;Source SID). But in addition I'd propose t=
o use in-band mechanism, perhaps another
 special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flo=
w with the timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol">=A1=A4</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;
</span>And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow=
. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained =
as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scop=
e, you may have to turn off/on the
 collection to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity,=
 per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flo=
w itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger relea=
se of counters.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Greg<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in">
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
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</blockquote>
</div>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">________________________=
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 12:53:05 +0100
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To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
Cc: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>, mpls@ietf.org, spring <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Hi John,

If so I stand by my msgs stating that you can accomplish your goal without
putting anything new on the wire.

Best,
r.

On Nov 16, 2017 19:43, "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net> wrote:

> Robert,
>
>
>
> I think you=E2=80=99re right that =E2=80=98SR Path Id=E2=80=99 is the wro=
ng term and that it
> should be =E2=80=98SR Segment List Id=E2=80=99.  We developed this draft =
in response to
> requests from our customers that, as described in our draft, have an
> interface on a node in the interior of an SR network whose utilization is
> above a given threshold.  In this situation, they need to be able to know
> which ingress nodes using which SR segment lists are sending traffic to
> that interface and how much traffic each ingress nodes is sending on each
> of its SR segment lists.
>
>
>
> This will allow the SR segment lists in question to be adjusted in order
> to steer traffic away from that interface in a controlled manner.
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:53 AM
> *To:* David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
> *Cc:* mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; spring <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement
> for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> /* resending and I got suppressed due to exceeding # of recipients */
>
>
>
> Dave,
>
>
>
> Two main fundamental points:
>
>
>
> 1.
>
>
>
> Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths are end to end (ingress to
> egress) of a given domain ?
>
>
>
> SR does not require end to end paths. In fact this is most beauty of SR
> that you can add one label to forward packets to different node in SPF
> topology and you make sure that traffic will be natively flowing from the=
re
> over disjoined path to native path.
>
>
>
> How in those deployment cases all of those discussions here even apply ?
>
>
>
> 2.
>
>
>
> To make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR segments are
> tightly coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments are not coupl=
ed
> to each other and in fact can be chosen dynamically in transit nodes. In
> those cases there is no concept of SR PATH at all.
>
>
>
> Thx,
>
> R.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David Allan I <
> david.i.allan@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> I=E2=80=99d rephrase this to be a bit more solution agnostic=E2=80=A6.
>
>
>
> 1.       Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achieved with pairwise
> measurement points).
>
>
>
> 2.       Are transit measurement points required as well=E2=80=A6..
>
>
>
> BTW transmit measurement points without e2e measurement points strikes me
> as bizarre=E2=80=A6.
>
>
>
> The view from here
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Mach Chen
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM
> *To:* Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>; Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org;
> Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
> *Subject:* [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for
> MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I agree with Sasha and Greg here!
>
>
>
> I think the first thing we need to agree on the requirements, then discus=
s
> the solution will make more sense. I would ask the following questions:
>
>
>
> 1.       Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
> 2.       Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
> 3.       Are both E2E and SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; spring; mpls;
> Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali
> (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Sasha,
>
> many thanks.
>
> I'd point to SR OAM Requirements
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsr-2Doam-2Drequirement-2D03&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYu=
h63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3=
HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3DO9dIUxKQrlw=
TmypTpQrHJI2ctXc1U5kWcUB1yEsqPsA&e=3D>
> (regrettably expired):
>
>    REQ#13:  SR OAM MUST have the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet
>
>             Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synthetic
>
>             probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.
>
>
>
> I think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is u=
seful at least for as long as we're developing OAM toolset. And the documen=
t will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be =
performed both e2e and over SPME.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abili=
ty to
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
> require OAM function for SR.
>
>
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.=
org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Doam-2Dusecase_-3Finclude-5Ftext-3D1&d=3DDwM=
FaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LG=
hEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=
=3DZBzVsWlwT1TW-rc8hRIu2oXOGTGFWyN8oEpwHOiK63Q&e=3D>
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
> implementation report
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dleipnitz-2Dspring-2Dpms-2Dimplementation-2Dreport-2D00&d=3DDwMFa=
Q&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhE=
WH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3D=
QfQBqcrZK7iG73fzIFm7Pt92DgaVOiHkhujytZ0q_zo&e=3D>
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in any
> case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
> two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.
>
>
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose label=
s in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsegment-2Drouting-2D13&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rs=
uhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBS=
MRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3DxKKBtL1_7pyQ6k9h=
akXPemUtJJc9c8wKgw2FgwYttIg&e=3D>,
> which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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>
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<div dir=3D"auto">Hi John,<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">If =
so I stand by my msgs stating that you can accomplish your goal without put=
ting anything new on the wire.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D=
"auto">Best,</div><div dir=3D"auto">r.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra=
"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 16, 2017 19:43, &quot;John E Drake&=
quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net">jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-7505799169563733429WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Robert,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I think you=E2=80=99re right that =E2=
=80=98SR Path Id=E2=80=99 is the wrong term and that it should be =E2=80=98=
SR Segment List Id=E2=80=99.=C2=A0 We developed this draft in response to r=
equests from our
 customers that, as described in our draft, have an interface on a node in =
the interior of an SR network whose utilization is above a given threshold.=
=C2=A0 In this situation, they need to be able to know which ingress nodes =
using which SR segment lists are sending
 traffic to that interface and how much traffic each ingress nodes is sendi=
ng on each of its SR segment lists.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">This will allow the SR segment lists =
in question to be adjusted in order to steer traffic away from that interfa=
ce in a controlled manner. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">John<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" =
target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measuremen=
t for MPLS-SR is needed?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">/* resending and I got suppressed due to exceeding # of recipients */=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Dave,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Two main fundamental points:=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">1.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths are end to end (ingress to =
egress) of a given domain ?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">SR does not require end to end paths. In fact this is most beauty of S=
R that you can add one label to forward packets to different node in SPF to=
pology and you make sure that traffic will be
 natively flowing from there over disjoined path to native path.=C2=A0<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">How in those deployment cases all of those discussions here even apply=
 ?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">2.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">To make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR segments are =
tightly coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments are not coupled=
 to each other and in fact can be chosen dynamically
 in transit nodes. In those cases there is no concept of SR PATH at all.=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Thx,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David Allan I &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.all=
an@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">I=E2=80=99d rephrase this to be a bit more solution=
 agnostic=E2=80=A6.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif">Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achieved with pairwise me=
asurement points).</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif">Are transit measurement points required as well=E2=80=A6..</span><u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">BTW transmit measurement points without e2e measure=
ment points strikes me as bizarre=E2=80=A6.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">The view from here</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Dave</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [mailto:<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org<=
/a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mach Chen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Va=
inshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecit=
ele.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement =
for MPLS-SR is needed?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi all,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I agree with Sasha and Greg here!</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I think the first thing we need to ag=
ree on the requirements, then discuss the solution will make more
 sense. I would ask the following questions:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:.25in"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.=
0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span><u></u><u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:.25in"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.=
0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:.25in"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">3.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.=
0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Are both E2E and SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span><u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Best regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Mach</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths; spring;=
 mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Sasha,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">many thanks.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;d point to
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsr-2Doam-2Drequirement-2D03&amp;d=3DDwMF=
aQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0=
cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIV=
UWOKbHng&amp;s=3DO9dIUxKQrlwTmypTpQrHJI2ctXc1U5kWcUB1yEsqPsA&amp;e=3D" targ=
et=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Requirements</a> (regrettably expired):<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 REQ#13:=C2=A0 SR OAM MUST hav=
e the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synth=
etic</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.</span=
><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">I=
 think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is usef=
ul at least for as long as we&#39;re developing OAM toolset. And the docume=
nt will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be=
 performed both e2e and over SPME.</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">R=
egards,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">G=
reg</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtei=
n &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Greg,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I concur with your position: let=E2=
=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that ability to measure traffic carried by=
 an
 SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require OAM function for SR.</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have looked up the
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatrack=
er.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Doam-2Dusecase_-3Finclude-5Ftext-3D1=
&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=
=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNisw=
cGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DZBzVsWlwT1TW-rc8hRIu2oXOGTGFWyN8oEpwHOiK63Q=
&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there=
. </span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The only time measurements are mentio=
ned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dleipnitz-2Dspring-2Dpms-2Dimplementation-2Dreport-2D00&a=
mp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DC=
RB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOW=
r8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DQfQBqcrZK7iG73fzIFm7Pt92DgaVOiHkhujytZ0q_zo&amp=
;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.=C2=
=A0 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevan=
t, IMHO, for this discussion.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have added the authors of the SR OA=
M Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">z=
ali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear All,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy=
 network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troublesh=
oot the network. True, some will brave the challenge
 and be the early adopters but even they will likely request that the OAM t=
oolbox be sufficient to support their operational needs. I see that this wo=
rk clearly describes the problem and why ability to quantify the flow behav=
ior at internal nodes is important
 for efficient network operation. First let&#39;s discuss whether the case =
and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to disc=
ussion of what measurement method to use.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Concur. Although it h=
as some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my point of view. Network =
simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we would have to make=
 some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <u></u><u></u></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</sp=
an> Xuxiaohu<br>
M<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A=
</span><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</a=
>
<br>
E<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A=
</span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@hu=
awei.com</a><br>
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sa=
ns-serif">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</=
span>-<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=
=BD=91</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft Jhen=
gHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=
=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in =
0in 0in" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microso=
ft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></=
b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)</span><u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Goth=
ic&quot;">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"Z=
H-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<w=
br>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.=
<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Goth=
ic&quot;">=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10=
.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=
=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microso=
ft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><spa=
n lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span><u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsegment-2Drouting-2D13&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&am=
p;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5=
LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKb=
Hng&amp;s=3DxKKBtL1_7pyQ6k9hakXPemUtJJc9c8wKgw2FgwYttIg&amp;e=3D" target=3D=
"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13<=
/a>, which states:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,sans-serif">=E2=80=9C</span>SR allows to enforce a flow through a=
ny topological path while maintaining per-flow
 state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" styl=
e=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=E2=80=9D</span><span lang=
=3D"ZH-CN">
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error
 prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex and unscalable. <u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">
=E2=80=A6</span> Zafar <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-=
bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on beha=
lf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path Id=
entifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special pu=
rpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have=
 to lose the bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course, a C=
ontroller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular flo=
w (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#39;d propose to use i=
n-band mechanism, perhaps another special
 purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with t=
he timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<u></u><u></u></li><li cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">
And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Sc=
alability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintained as =
long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, =
you may have to turn off/on the collection
 to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow g=
ranularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself ma=
y be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of count=
ers.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
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______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
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<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_mpls&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeM=
K-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=
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ilman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>, John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 11:59:01 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/O1TZvthJMOB01WlDIA3lRa3RMPs>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, "Greg Mirsky" <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 11:54:34 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/X4EM4acCXBGd3qTaelIrgKSpCgQ>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
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CC: "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "robert@raszuk.net" <robert@raszuk.net>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "zali@cisco.com" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/sLp5q9McSf0InUk6lq5M46njtMM>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
CC: "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "zali@cisco.com" <zali@cisco.com>, "robert@raszuk.net" <robert@raszuk.net>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "Ext - Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 12:27:57 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/Fq-qMJSBlgk9zghR6Bazw-riQi8>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 12:32:17 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/c4IIW4KGlyboGjEkmzASEgpIW0c>
Subject: Re: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">This I completely agree with, however, given that we have had similar =
counters in LSRs since the advent of MPLS/RSVP-TE I am not sure this is a =
=A1=B0complicated function=A1=B1.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">Yours Irrespectively,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">John<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] <b>=
On Behalf Of
</b>Xuxiaohu<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 15, 2017 10:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mach Chen &lt;mach.chen@huawei.com&gt;; Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;zal=
i@cisco.com&gt;; Greg Mirsky &lt;gregimirsky@gmail.com&gt;; draft-hegde-spr=
ing-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounti=
ng-for-sr-paths@ietf.org&gt;; mpls &lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;; spring
 &lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"><br>
The beauty of MPLS-SR is less states are required. To keep it as beautiful =
as possible, it'd better for us to overcome the impulsion of adding more an=
d more complicated functions.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun">
<hr size=3D"3" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" =
style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun">=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2</span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"> Xuxiaohu<br>
M<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=A3=BA</span><a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43=
;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=A3=BA</span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">x=
uxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8</span>-<spa=
n lang=3D"ZH-CN">=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=
=BF</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in =
0in 0in" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">Mach Chen<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">Zafar Ali (z=
ali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;Greg Mirsk=
y&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dr=
aft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spri=
ng-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@=
ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">Re: [spring]=
 Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-pat=
hs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">2017-11-16 1=
1:29:12<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">Hi Za=
far,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">Given=
 that SR supports SID Binding, states only maintained at ingress is not ver=
y true.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">Best =
regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">Mach<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bou=
nces@ietf.org">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 2:24 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Mirsky; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accoun=
ting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D=
"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">
mpls@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsegment-2Drouting-2D13&amp;d=3DDwMFbw&am=
p;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5=
LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DH0f4eGIEJx8dGGNmVC6odbGYPjUtSzVjG1nidDV8=
1W4&amp;s=3D_uDfZ91-H1J1EfZbUnB1bCKToDMryuq30oQd8aOBquQ&amp;e=3D">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>, which=
 states:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A1=B0SR allows to enforce a flow through any topolo=
gical path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to th=
e SR domain.=A1=B1
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I fin=
d the procedure very complex and unscalable.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =A1=AD Zafar <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on beh=
alf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky=
@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@iet=
f.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting=
-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:sp=
ring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.=
org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I'd like to discuss:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">Have you thought =
of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path Identifier and SR P=
ath Identifier&#43;Source SID cases but request two special purpose labels,=
 one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
 would not have to lose the bit for C flag.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"Mso=
Normal" style=3D"mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">And how you envision to collect t=
he counters along the path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all c=
ounters or counters for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier&#43;Source =
SID). But in addition I'd
 propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, t=
o trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-=
band to the predefined Collector.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" st=
yle=3D"mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">And the last, have you considered ability t=
o flush counters per flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that=
 counters are maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If=
 that is on
 the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off so=
me old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would=
 be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to sig=
nal the end of the measurement and
 trigger release of counters.<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/I4Z8qpbBHc5tV0waM_4yNbzysU4>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: ShaoWen Ma <mashaowen@gmail.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/x017BQHI4YCrPqASwxmnrwGc0oc>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "zali@cisco.com" <zali@cisco.com>, "robert@raszuk.net" <robert@raszuk.net>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "Ext - Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/F8t1fQPuiEREtw0Ry_skZyel8Eg>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: "Ext - Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
CC: "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "robert@raszuk.net" <robert@raszuk.net>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "zali@cisco.com" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
Thread-Index: AQHTXr+FrywOr+bAjEyA1uBshIm8aqMW5mOAgAAK5YCAAALIYA==
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: "Shah, Himanshu" <hshah@ciena.com>, Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 12:28:10 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/pY8ccP3jIEmB0gNko5t6Rx_vNNQ>
Subject: Re: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 14:43:46 +0100
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To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
Cc: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>,  spring <spring@ietf.org>, David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Hi John,

I think I did but let me restate ...

Imagine we have a network like below:


R1 --- R2 --- R3 --- R4
            |
R5 --- R6


R1 and R5 are ingress of SR-MPLS domain and R4 is an egress. You have two
SR-MPLS paths:

P1 - R1-R2-R3-R4
P2 - R5-R6-R2-R3-R4

(I know those are SPTs but this is just for illustration).

So on each ingress we need to map packets to SR paths by some match ... it
can be based on the dst IP, src/dst IP, port # etc ... So we record those
with respect to each path they take.

Now we also record on R4 the same set of tuples.

So now we have all counters needed without asking R4 to report P1 nor P2
(nor need to carry them in the packets) as based on the tuples count which
are used on ingress for mapping we can correlate in offline tool the exact
count of traffic per ingress segment chain.

In fact we can also derive per path stats even from transit nodes with
exact the same type of offline data correlation.

Does anyone see any issue ? Is going offline so bad that we must add labels
and modify all hardware to be able to have comfort of using router's CLI to
get this data on the routers itself ?

Thx,
R.









On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 1:39 PM, John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net> wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
>
> Or even just an extended email.
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> *From:* Alexander Vainshtein [mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:59 AM
> *To:* Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
> *Cc:* mpls@ietf.org; spring <spring@ietf.org>; David Allan I <
> david.i.allan@ericsson.com>; John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
> *Subject:* RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance
> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Robert,
>
> Do you plan to post a draft that explains how this can be achieved withou=
t
> changing anything on the wire?
>
> Without such a draft it is a bit difficult to compare the solutions:-)
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org <spring-bounces@ietf.org>]=
 *On
> Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 1:53 PM
> *To:* John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
> *Cc:* mpls@ietf.org; spring <spring@ietf.org>; David Allan I <
> david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance
> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Hi John,
>
>
>
> If so I stand by my msgs stating that you can accomplish your goal withou=
t
> putting anything new on the wire.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> r.
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 19:43, "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net> wrote:
>
> Robert,
>
>
>
> I think you=E2=80=99re right that =E2=80=98SR Path Id=E2=80=99 is the wro=
ng term and that it
> should be =E2=80=98SR Segment List Id=E2=80=99.  We developed this draft =
in response to
> requests from our customers that, as described in our draft, have an
> interface on a node in the interior of an SR network whose utilization is
> above a given threshold.  In this situation, they need to be able to know
> which ingress nodes using which SR segment lists are sending traffic to
> that interface and how much traffic each ingress nodes is sending on each
> of its SR segment lists.
>
>
>
> This will allow the SR segment lists in question to be adjusted in order
> to steer traffic away from that interface in a controlled manner.
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:53 AM
> *To:* David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
> *Cc:* mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; spring <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement
> for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> /* resending and I got suppressed due to exceeding # of recipients */
>
>
>
> Dave,
>
>
>
> Two main fundamental points:
>
>
>
> 1.
>
>
>
> Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths are end to end (ingress to
> egress) of a given domain ?
>
>
>
> SR does not require end to end paths. In fact this is most beauty of SR
> that you can add one label to forward packets to different node in SPF
> topology and you make sure that traffic will be natively flowing from the=
re
> over disjoined path to native path.
>
>
>
> How in those deployment cases all of those discussions here even apply ?
>
>
>
> 2.
>
>
>
> To make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR segments are
> tightly coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments are not coupl=
ed
> to each other and in fact can be chosen dynamically in transit nodes. In
> those cases there is no concept of SR PATH at all.
>
>
>
> Thx,
>
> R.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David Allan I <
> david.i.allan@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> I=E2=80=99d rephrase this to be a bit more solution agnostic=E2=80=A6.
>
>
>
> 1.       Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achieved with pairwise
> measurement points).
>
>
>
> 2.       Are transit measurement points required as well=E2=80=A6..
>
>
>
> BTW transmit measurement points without e2e measurement points strikes me
> as bizarre=E2=80=A6.
>
>
>
> The view from here
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Mach Chen
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM
> *To:* Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>; Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org;
> Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
> *Subject:* [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for
> MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I agree with Sasha and Greg here!
>
>
>
> I think the first thing we need to agree on the requirements, then discus=
s
> the solution will make more sense. I would ask the following questions:
>
>
>
> 1.       Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
> 2.       Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
> 3.       Are both E2E and SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; spring; mpls;
> Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali
> (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Sasha,
>
> many thanks.
>
> I'd point to SR OAM Requirements
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsr-2Doam-2Drequirement-2D03&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYu=
h63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3=
HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3DO9dIUxKQrlw=
TmypTpQrHJI2ctXc1U5kWcUB1yEsqPsA&e=3D>
> (regrettably expired):
>
>    REQ#13:  SR OAM MUST have the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet
>
>             Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synthetic
>
>             probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.
>
>
>
> I think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is u=
seful at least for as long as we're developing OAM toolset. And the documen=
t will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be =
performed both e2e and over SPME.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abili=
ty to
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
> require OAM function for SR.
>
>
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.=
org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Doam-2Dusecase_-3Finclude-5Ftext-3D1&d=3DDwM=
FaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LG=
hEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=
=3DZBzVsWlwT1TW-rc8hRIu2oXOGTGFWyN8oEpwHOiK63Q&e=3D>
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
> implementation report
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dleipnitz-2Dspring-2Dpms-2Dimplementation-2Dreport-2D00&d=3DDwMFa=
Q&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhE=
WH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3D=
QfQBqcrZK7iG73fzIFm7Pt92DgaVOiHkhujytZ0q_zo&e=3D>
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in any
> case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
> two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.
>
>
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose label=
s in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsegment-2Drouting-2D13&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rs=
uhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBS=
MRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3DxKKBtL1_7pyQ6k9h=
akXPemUtJJc9c8wKgw2FgwYttIg&e=3D>,
> which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
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>
>
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>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
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man_listinfo_mpls&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoC=
I&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswc=
GOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3D08NHkgGh3s2IUy6RcA-PJ9m6Un8j-FQd_zZABnvAz9Q&e=3D=
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
> delete the original
> and all copies thereof.
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>

--001a11491d2a39ff8d055e19cf79
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi John,</div><div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-=
serif;font-size:small">I think I did but let me restate ...</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,=
helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Imagine we have a network like below:=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fo=
nt-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small">R1 --- R2 --- R3 --- R4</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-=
family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">R5 --- R6</div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-si=
ze:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial=
,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_defaul=
t" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">R1 and =
R5 are ingress of SR-MPLS domain and R4 is an egress. You have two SR-MPLS =
paths:=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,h=
elvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
 style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">P1 - R1-R=
2-R3-R4</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvet=
ica,sans-serif;font-size:small">P2 - R5-R6-R2-R3-R4</div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"=
><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetic=
a,sans-serif;font-size:small">(I know those are SPTs but this is just for i=
llustration).=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:=
arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_d=
efault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">So=
 on each ingress we need to map packets to SR paths by some match ... it ca=
n be based on the dst IP, src/dst IP, port # etc ... So we record those wit=
h respect to each path they take.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif=
;font-size:small">Now we also record on R4 the same set of tuples.=C2=A0</d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-=
family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">So now we have all count=
ers needed without asking R4 to report P1 nor P2 (nor need to carry them in=
 the packets) as based on the tuples count which are used on ingress for ma=
pping we can correlate in offline tool the exact count of traffic per ingre=
ss segment chain.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gma=
il_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
">In fact we can also derive per path stats even from transit nodes with ex=
act the same type of offline data correlation.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gma=
il_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helveti=
ca,sans-serif;font-size:small">Does anyone see any issue ? Is going offline=
 so bad that we must add labels and modify all hardware to be able to have =
comfort of using router&#39;s CLI to get this data on the routers itself ?<=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans=
-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Thx,</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small">R.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gma=
il_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helveti=
ca,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small"><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 1:39 PM, John E Drake <span dir=3D"ltr=
">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrake@junipe=
r.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_671809827882275110WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Or even just an extended email.<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">John<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Alexander Vainshtein [mailto:<=
a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexan=
der.Vainshtein@<wbr>ecitele.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D=
"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sprin=
g@ietf.org</a>&gt;; David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@erics=
son.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;; John E Drake=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrake@juniper=
.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance m=
easurement for MPLS-SR is needed?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Robert,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Do you plan to post a draft that expl=
ains how this can be achieved without changing anything on the wire?<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Without such a draft it is a bit diff=
icult to compare the solutions:-)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office: <a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6=
302" value=3D"+97239266302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a><u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <=
a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" value=3D"+972549266302" target=3D"_blank"=
>+972-549266302</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [<a href=3D"mailto:spri=
ng-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org<=
/a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 1:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D=
"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sprin=
g@ietf.org</a>&gt;; David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@erics=
son.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance m=
easurement for MPLS-SR is needed?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi John,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If so I stand by my msgs stating that you can accomp=
lish your goal without putting anything new on the wire.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">r.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Nov 16, 2017 19:43, &quot;John E Drake&quot; &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Robert,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I think you=E2=80=99re right that =E2=
=80=98SR Path Id=E2=80=99 is the wrong term and that it should be =E2=80=98=
SR Segment List Id=E2=80=99.=C2=A0
 We developed this draft in response to requests from our customers that, a=
s described in our draft, have an interface on a node in the interior of an=
 SR network whose utilization is above a given threshold.=C2=A0 In this sit=
uation, they need to be able to know
 which ingress nodes using which SR segment lists are sending traffic to th=
at interface and how much traffic each ingress nodes is sending on each of =
its SR segment lists.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">This will allow the SR segment lists =
in question to be adjusted in order to steer traffic away from
 that interface in a controlled manner. =C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">John</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" =
target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measuremen=
t for MPLS-SR is needed?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">/* resending and I got suppressed due to exceeding # of recipients */=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Dave,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Two main fundamental points:=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">1.=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths are end to end (ingress to =
egress) of a given domain ?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">SR does not require end to end paths. In fact this is most beauty of S=
R that you can add one label to forward packets to different node
 in SPF topology and you make sure that traffic will be natively flowing fr=
om there over disjoined path to native path.=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">How in those deployment cases all of those discussions here even apply=
 ?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">2.=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">To make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR segments are =
tightly coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments are
 not coupled to each other and in fact can be chosen dynamically in transit=
 nodes. In those cases there is no concept of SR PATH at all.=C2=A0</span><=
u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Thx,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David Allan I &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.all=
an@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">I=E2=80=99d rephrase this to be a bit more solution=
 agnostic=E2=80=A6.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"=
>1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif">Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achieved with pairwise me=
asurement points).</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"=
>2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif">Are transit measurement points required as well=E2=80=A6..</span><u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">BTW transmit measurement points without e2e measure=
ment points strikes me as bizarre=E2=80=A6.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">The view from here</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Dave</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [mailto:<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org<=
/a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mach Chen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Va=
inshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecit=
ele.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement =
for MPLS-SR is needed?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi all,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I agree with Sasha and Greg here!</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I think the first thing we need to ag=
ree on the requirements, then discuss the solution will make more
 sense. I would ask the following questions:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span><u></u><u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"m_671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"m_671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">3.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Are both E2E and SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span><u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Best regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Mach</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths; spring;=
 mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Sasha,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">many thanks.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;d point to
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsr-2Doam-2Drequirement-2D03&amp;d=3DDwMF=
aQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0=
cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIV=
UWOKbHng&amp;s=3DO9dIUxKQrlwTmypTpQrHJI2ctXc1U5kWcUB1yEsqPsA&amp;e=3D" targ=
et=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Requirements</a> (regrettably expired):<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 REQ#13:=C2=A0 SR OAM MUST hav=
e the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synth=
etic</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.</span=
><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">I=
 think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is usef=
ul at least for as long as we&#39;re developing OAM toolset. And the docume=
nt will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be=
 performed both e2e and over SPME.</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">R=
egards,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">G=
reg</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtei=
n &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Greg,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I concur with your position: let=E2=
=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that ability to measure traffic carried by=
 an
 SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require OAM function for SR.</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have looked up the
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatrack=
er.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Doam-2Dusecase_-3Finclude-5Ftext-3D1=
&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=
=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNisw=
cGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DZBzVsWlwT1TW-rc8hRIu2oXOGTGFWyN8oEpwHOiK63Q=
&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there=
. </span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The only time measurements are mentio=
ned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dleipnitz-2Dspring-2Dpms-2Dimplementation-2Dreport-2D00&a=
mp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DC=
RB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOW=
r8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DQfQBqcrZK7iG73fzIFm7Pt92DgaVOiHkhujytZ0q_zo&amp=
;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.=C2=
=A0 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevan=
t, IMHO, for this discussion.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have added the authors of the SR OA=
M Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">z=
ali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear All,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy=
 network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troublesh=
oot the network. True, some will brave the challenge
 and be the early adopters but even they will likely request that the OAM t=
oolbox be sufficient to support their operational needs. I see that this wo=
rk clearly describes the problem and why ability to quantify the flow behav=
ior at internal nodes is important
 for efficient network operation. First let&#39;s discuss whether the case =
and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to disc=
ussion of what measurement method to use.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Concur. Although it h=
as some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my point of view. Network =
simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we would have to make=
 some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <u></u><u></u></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</sp=
an> Xuxiaohu<br>
M<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A=
</span><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</a=
>
<br>
E<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A=
</span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@hu=
awei.com</a><br>
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sa=
ns-serif">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</=
span>-<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=
=BD=91</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft Jhen=
gHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=
=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in =
0in 0in" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microso=
ft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></=
b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)</span><u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Goth=
ic&quot;">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"Z=
H-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<w=
br>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.=
<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Goth=
ic&quot;">=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10=
.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=
=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microso=
ft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><spa=
n lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span><u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsegment-2Drouting-2D13&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&am=
p;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5=
LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKb=
Hng&amp;s=3DxKKBtL1_7pyQ6k9hakXPemUtJJc9c8wKgw2FgwYttIg&amp;e=3D" target=3D=
"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13<=
/a>, which states:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif">=E2=80=9C</span>SR allows to enforce a flow through any topological =
path while maintaining per-flow state only
 at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif">=E2=80=9D</span><span>
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error
 prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex and unscalable. <u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=E2=80=A6</span>=
 Zafar
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-=
bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on beha=
lf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path Id=
entifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special pu=
rpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have=
 to lose the bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course, a C=
ontroller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular flo=
w (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#39;d propose to use i=
n-band mechanism, perhaps another special
 purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with t=
he timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<u></u><u></u></li><li cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">
And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Sc=
alability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintained as =
long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, =
you may have to turn off/on the collection
 to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow g=
ranularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself ma=
y be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of count=
ers.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is
<br>
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
ved this
<br>
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original
<br>
and all copies thereof.<br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_mpls&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeM=
K-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=
=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3D08NHkgGh3s2IUy6RcA-P=
J9m6Un8j-FQd_zZABnvAz9Q&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is
<br>
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
ved this
<br>
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original
<br>
and all copies thereof.<br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<u></u><u></u></p>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a11491d2a39ff8d055e19cf79--


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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 14:53:06 +0100
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To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
Cc: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  spring <spring@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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> Hi,
>
>
>
> We are dealing with an SR network in which the data plane is MPLS rather
> than IP.
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>

=E2=80=8BI think this is very important to stop here for a moment and discu=
ss ...
What is MPLS data plane ?

MPLS data plane can be connection less (constructed with LDP or IGP
extensions of domain wide labels) - that is really an IP based control
plane which controls the forwarding modulo tunnels to specific nodes
(SR-MPLS, GRE, VXLAN etc ....)

MPLS data plane can also be connection oriented (example using RSVP-TE=E2=
=80=8B)
which setup LSP across the network. Does not reserve nor guarantee anything
in the data plane (only if well done in the control plane - which btw some
folks still do not believe after so many years :-).

So here we are now really trying to take connection oriented model and push
it to connecton less paradigm.

Very bizarre ...

=E2=80=8BBest,
Robert.=E2=80=8B

--001a114734aea0770e055e19f0d9
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_5105546781386434497WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Hi,<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">We are dealing with an=
 SR network in which the data plane is MPLS rather than IP.<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">John</span></p></div><=
/div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" st=
yle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">=E2=80=8BI t=
hink this is very important to stop here for a moment and discuss ... What =
is MPLS data plane ?</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family=
:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">M=
PLS data plane can be connection less (constructed with LDP or IGP extensio=
ns of domain wide labels) - that is really an IP based control plane which =
controls the forwarding modulo tunnels to specific nodes (SR-MPLS, GRE, VXL=
AN etc ....)=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:a=
rial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_de=
fault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">MPL=
S data plane can also be connection oriented (example using RSVP-TE=E2=80=
=8B) which setup LSP across the network. Does not reserve nor guarantee any=
thing in the data plane (only if well done in the control plane - which btw=
 some folks still do not believe after so many years :-).=C2=A0</div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font=
-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:ar=
ial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">So here we are now really trying =
to take connection oriented model and push it to connecton less paradigm.=
=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helveti=
ca,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Very bizarre ..=
.=C2=A0</div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">=E2=80=8BBest,</div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-s=
ize:small">Robert.=E2=80=8B</div></div><div><br></div></div></div></div>

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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 22:39:06 +0800
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To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
Cc: "Ext - Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>,  "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "zali@cisco.com" <zali@cisco.com>,  "robert@raszuk.net" <robert@raszuk.net>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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--001a113f22001e4981055e1a9574
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Hi John,
if network doesn't use payload information to handle ECMP then performance
measurement using RFC 8169-style or pure active OAM based on RFC 6374 will
certainly work. But if it is DPI-based hashing for ECMP, then there cannot
be guarantee that packets with GAL/G-ACh follow the same path as regular
packets. Of course, one can use GAL/G-ACh encapsulation as a tunnel, as
normal case and then do any sort of measurements.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 7:59 PM, John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net> wrote:

> Ruediger,
>
>
>
> There is also the possibility of using a GAL w/ a new fixed size GACH
> containing the SR Segment List Id.  This is similar to Robert=E2=80=99s s=
uggestion
> of using a VXLAN header.
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *
> Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:44 AM
> *To:* adrian@olddog.co.uk
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org;
> spring@ietf.org; robert@raszuk.net; mpls@ietf.org; zali@cisco.com
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] redux: Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Adrian,
>
>
>
> to me, there=E2=80=99s no ideal solution. But an analysis may help to fin=
d a
> useful solution. There=E2=80=99s a need to collect traffic statistics als=
o for
> packets which don=E2=80=99t follow the shortest end to end path. There=E2=
=80=99s no simple
> howto, I think.
>
>
>
> For the time being, I=E2=80=99d prefer not to add special labels to the s=
tack.
> What other options are there?
>
> -        Accounting at the router pushing a relevant label stack only.
>
> -        Accounting of an n-label stack.
>
> -        Acoounting of a subset of labels only (e.g. Node-SID Labels and
> Anycast-SID, but not ADJ-SID). The idea is a compromise to limit the numb=
er
> of counters be maintained. Consider accounting of the top 2 labels carryi=
ng
> global routing information.
>
> -        A special label. Shradda proposes to put such a label into the
> stack. The labels present there prior to the addition are maintained. One
> might think about a single top label which identifies and replaces the
> label stack carrying routing information relevant for the path. That woul=
d
> simplify accounting, but it requires suitable IGP functionality.
>
>
>
> None of the options sounds simple. Are there more (and simpler) ones I
> didn=E2=80=99t come upon?
>
>
>
> Regards, Ruediger
>
>
>
> *Von:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org <spring-bounces@ietf.org>] =
*Im
> Auftrag von *Adrian Farrel
> *Gesendet:* Donnerstag, 16. November 2017 06:35
> *An:* 'Mach Chen' <mach.chen@huawei.com>; 'Jeff Tantsura' <
> jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>; 'Robert Raszuk' <robert@raszuk.net>
> *Cc:* 'draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths' <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; 'spring' <
> spring@ietf.org>; 'Zafar Ali (zali)' <zali@cisco.com>; 'mpls' <
> mpls@ietf.org>
> *Betreff:* Re: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Let's unpick a couple of things...
>
>
>
> 1. This work is not talking about per-flow accounting, it is talking abou=
t
> peer SR-path accounting
>
> 2. ipfix on its own does not cut it because you still have to put a marke=
r
> in the packets
>
> 3. Yes, SR assumes there is no (i.e. zero) state per SR-path in the netwo=
rk
>
> But this third point causes a tension: we want to use SR because it is
> good, but we want to do transit node diagnostics because (frankly) they a=
re
> necessary.
>
> To get the full picture of why they are necessary read the draft, or
> consider ECMP.
>
>
>
> This discussion will not be unfamiliar to those who tried to debug LDP
> networks.
>
>
>
> Adrian
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
>

--001a113f22001e4981055e1a9574
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi John,<div>if network doesn&#39;t use payload informatio=
n to handle ECMP then performance measurement using RFC 8169-style or pure =
active OAM based on RFC 6374 will certainly work. But if it is DPI-based ha=
shing for ECMP, then there cannot be guarantee that packets with GAL/G-ACh =
follow the same path as regular packets. Of course, one can use GAL/G-ACh e=
ncapsulation as a tunnel, as normal case and then do any sort of measuremen=
ts.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 a=
t 7:59 PM, John E Drake <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juni=
per.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-6184090405600078515WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Ruediger,<u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">There is also the poss=
ibility of using a GAL w/ a new fixed size GACH containing the SR Segment L=
ist Id.=C2=A0 This is similar to Robert=E2=80=99s suggestion of using a VXL=
AN header. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">John<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b><a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">Ruediger.=
Geib@telekom.de</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@=
olddog.co.uk</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-p=
aths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting=
-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" targe=
t=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"=
_blank">zali@cisco.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-=
hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">Adrian,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">to me, there=E2=80=99s no ideal solution. But an ana=
lysis may help to find a useful solution. There=E2=80=99s a need to collect=
 traffic statistics also for packets which don=E2=80=99t follow the shortes=
t end to end path. There=E2=80=99s no simple howto, I think.<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For the time being, I=E2=80=99d prefer not to add sp=
ecial labels to the stack. What other options are there?<u></u><u></u></p>
</span><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<u></u><span>-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>Accounting at the router pushing a relevant label stac=
k only.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<u></u><span>-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>Accounting of an n-label stack.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<u></u><span>-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>Acoounting of a subset of labels only (e.g. Node-SID L=
abels and Anycast-SID, but not ADJ-SID). The idea is a compromise to limit =
the number of counters be maintained. Consider accounting of the top 2 labe=
ls carrying global routing information.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<u></u><span>-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>A special label. Shradda proposes to put such a label =
into the stack. The labels present there prior to the addition are maintain=
ed. One might think about a single top label which identifies and replaces =
the label stack carrying routing
 information relevant for the path. That would simplify accounting, but it =
requires suitable IGP functionality. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><span class=3D=
"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">None of the options sounds simple. Are there more (a=
nd simpler) ones I didn=E2=80=99t come upon?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards, Ruediger<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>Von:</b> spring [<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>]
<b>Im Auftrag von </b>Adrian Farrel<br>
<b>Gesendet:</b> Donnerstag, 16. November 2017 06:35<br>
<b>An:</b> &#39;<span lang=3D"DE">Mach Chen&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mach=
.chen@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">mach.chen@huawei.com</a>&gt;; &#39;Jeff=
 Tantsura&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">jefftant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; &#39;Robert Raszuk&#39; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<b=
r>
<b>Cc:</b> &#39;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&#39=
; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-=
sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; &#39;spring&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spri=
ng@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 &#39;Zafar Ali (zali)&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D=
"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; &#39;mpls&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-=
hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">Let&#39=
;s unpick a couple of things...<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">1. This=
 work is not talking about per-flow accounting, it is talking about peer SR=
-path accounting<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">2. ipfi=
x on its own does not cut it because you still have to put a marker in the =
packets<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">3. Yes,=
 SR assumes there is no (i.e. zero) state per SR-path in the network<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">But thi=
s third point causes a tension: we want to use SR because it is good, but w=
e want to do transit node diagnostics because (frankly) they are necessary.=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">To get =
the full picture of why they are necessary read the draft, or consider ECMP=
.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">This di=
scussion will not be unfamiliar to those who tried to debug LDP networks.<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">Adrian<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>

<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a113f22001e4981055e1a9574--


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CC: mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "draft-cheng-spring-path-segment@ietf.org" <draft-cheng-spring-path-segment@ietf.org>
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From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From nobody Thu Nov 16 15:33:54 2017
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/QCh0cMT0n-A4LbNzYGcZmY8VpGo>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 01:37:50 +0100
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To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
Cc: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>, mpls@ietf.org,  Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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How the same packet can be received (or generated) by both R1 and R5 from
other domains or sources ?

If network would do that it is likely to get reordered ins't it ? At least
l3+l4 tuple should identify packets without any problem. If this is vpn
packets in transit let's also add vpn label.

Thx
R.

On Nov 17, 2017 00:51, "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net> wrote:

> Robert,
>
>
>
> Upon reflection, the same question can be asked of R4.
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> *From:* John E Drake
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:34 PM
> *To:* Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
> *Cc:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>;
> mpls@ietf.org; spring <spring@ietf.org>; David Allan I <
> david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
> *Subject:* RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance
> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Robert,
>
>
>
> How do R6, R2, and R3 determine w/ which SR segment list a packet is
> associated?  E.g., the tuples in a packet from either R1 or R5 will be th=
e
> same.
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> *From:* rraszuk@gmail.com [mailto:rraszuk@gmail.com <rraszuk@gmail.com>] =
*On
> Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 8:44 AM
> *To:* John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
> *Cc:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>;
> mpls@ietf.org; spring <spring@ietf.org>; David Allan I <
> david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance
> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Hi John,
>
>
>
> I think I did but let me restate ...
>
>
>
> Imagine we have a network like below:
>
>
>
>
>
> R1 --- R2 --- R3 --- R4
>
>             |
>
> R5 --- R6
>
>
>
>
>
> R1 and R5 are ingress of SR-MPLS domain and R4 is an egress. You have two
> SR-MPLS paths:
>
>
>
> P1 - R1-R2-R3-R4
>
> P2 - R5-R6-R2-R3-R4
>
>
>
> (I know those are SPTs but this is just for illustration).
>
>
>
> So on each ingress we need to map packets to SR paths by some match ... i=
t
> can be based on the dst IP, src/dst IP, port # etc ... So we record those
> with respect to each path they take.
>
>
>
> Now we also record on R4 the same set of tuples.
>
>
>
> So now we have all counters needed without asking R4 to report P1 nor P2
> (nor need to carry them in the packets) as based on the tuples count whic=
h
> are used on ingress for mapping we can correlate in offline tool the exac=
t
> count of traffic per ingress segment chain.
>
>
>
> In fact we can also derive per path stats even from transit nodes with
> exact the same type of offline data correlation.
>
>
>
> Does anyone see any issue ? Is going offline so bad that we must add
> labels and modify all hardware to be able to have comfort of using router=
's
> CLI to get this data on the routers itself ?
>
>
>
> Thx,
>
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 1:39 PM, John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Or even just an extended email.
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> *From:* Alexander Vainshtein [mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:59 AM
> *To:* Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
> *Cc:* mpls@ietf.org; spring <spring@ietf.org>; David Allan I <
> david.i.allan@ericsson.com>; John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
> *Subject:* RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance
> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Robert,
>
> Do you plan to post a draft that explains how this can be achieved withou=
t
> changing anything on the wire?
>
> Without such a draft it is a bit difficult to compare the solutions:-)
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org <spring-bounces@ietf.org>]=
 *On
> Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 1:53 PM
> *To:* John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
> *Cc:* mpls@ietf.org; spring <spring@ietf.org>; David Allan I <
> david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance
> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Hi John,
>
>
>
> If so I stand by my msgs stating that you can accomplish your goal withou=
t
> putting anything new on the wire.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> r.
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 19:43, "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net> wrote:
>
> Robert,
>
>
>
> I think you=E2=80=99re right that =E2=80=98SR Path Id=E2=80=99 is the wro=
ng term and that it
> should be =E2=80=98SR Segment List Id=E2=80=99.  We developed this draft =
in response to
> requests from our customers that, as described in our draft, have an
> interface on a node in the interior of an SR network whose utilization is
> above a given threshold.  In this situation, they need to be able to know
> which ingress nodes using which SR segment lists are sending traffic to
> that interface and how much traffic each ingress nodes is sending on each
> of its SR segment lists.
>
>
>
> This will allow the SR segment lists in question to be adjusted in order
> to steer traffic away from that interface in a controlled manner.
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:53 AM
> *To:* David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
> *Cc:* mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; spring <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement
> for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> /* resending and I got suppressed due to exceeding # of recipients */
>
>
>
> Dave,
>
>
>
> Two main fundamental points:
>
>
>
> 1.
>
>
>
> Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths are end to end (ingress to
> egress) of a given domain ?
>
>
>
> SR does not require end to end paths. In fact this is most beauty of SR
> that you can add one label to forward packets to different node in SPF
> topology and you make sure that traffic will be natively flowing from the=
re
> over disjoined path to native path.
>
>
>
> How in those deployment cases all of those discussions here even apply ?
>
>
>
> 2.
>
>
>
> To make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR segments are
> tightly coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments are not coupl=
ed
> to each other and in fact can be chosen dynamically in transit nodes. In
> those cases there is no concept of SR PATH at all.
>
>
>
> Thx,
>
> R.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David Allan I <
> david.i.allan@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> I=E2=80=99d rephrase this to be a bit more solution agnostic=E2=80=A6.
>
>
>
> 1.       Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achieved with pairwise
> measurement points).
>
>
>
> 2.       Are transit measurement points required as well=E2=80=A6..
>
>
>
> BTW transmit measurement points without e2e measurement points strikes me
> as bizarre=E2=80=A6.
>
>
>
> The view from here
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Mach Chen
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM
> *To:* Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>; Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org;
> Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
> *Subject:* [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for
> MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I agree with Sasha and Greg here!
>
>
>
> I think the first thing we need to agree on the requirements, then discus=
s
> the solution will make more sense. I would ask the following questions:
>
>
>
> 1.       Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
> 2.       Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
> 3.       Are both E2E and SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; spring; mpls;
> Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali
> (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Sasha,
>
> many thanks.
>
> I'd point to SR OAM Requirements
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsr-2Doam-2Drequirement-2D03&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYu=
h63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3=
HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3DO9dIUxKQrlw=
TmypTpQrHJI2ctXc1U5kWcUB1yEsqPsA&e=3D>
> (regrettably expired):
>
>    REQ#13:  SR OAM MUST have the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet
>
>             Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synthetic
>
>             probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.
>
>
>
> I think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is u=
seful at least for as long as we're developing OAM toolset. And the documen=
t will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be =
performed both e2e and over SPME.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abili=
ty to
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
> require OAM function for SR.
>
>
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.=
org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Doam-2Dusecase_-3Finclude-5Ftext-3D1&d=3DDwM=
FaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LG=
hEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=
=3DZBzVsWlwT1TW-rc8hRIu2oXOGTGFWyN8oEpwHOiK63Q&e=3D>
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
> implementation report
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dleipnitz-2Dspring-2Dpms-2Dimplementation-2Dreport-2D00&d=3DDwMFa=
Q&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhE=
WH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3D=
QfQBqcrZK7iG73fzIFm7Pt92DgaVOiHkhujytZ0q_zo&e=3D>
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in any
> case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
> two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.
>
>
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose label=
s in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsegment-2Drouting-2D13&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rs=
uhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBS=
MRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3DxKKBtL1_7pyQ6k9h=
akXPemUtJJc9c8wKgw2FgwYttIg&e=3D>,
> which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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>
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> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
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> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
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--94eb2c1b4fe85e5314055e22f2c9
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">How the same packet can be received (or generated) by bot=
h R1 and R5 from other domains or sources ?<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div=
 dir=3D"auto">If network would do that it is likely to get reordered ins&#3=
9;t it ? At least l3+l4 tuple should identify packets without any problem. =
If this is vpn packets in transit let&#39;s also add vpn label.</div><div d=
ir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Thx</div><div dir=3D"auto">R.</div>=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 17, =
2017 00:51, &quot;John E Drake&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.n=
et">jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-3916500457056651104WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Robert,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Upon reflection, the same question ca=
n be asked of R4.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">John<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> John E Drake
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D=
"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@=
ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt=
;; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>; sp=
ring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;; David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance m=
easurement for MPLS-SR is needed?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Robert,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">How do R6, R2, and R3 determine w/ wh=
ich SR segment list a packet is associated?=C2=A0 E.g., the tuples in a pac=
ket from either R1 or R5 will be the same.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">John<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">
<a href=3D"mailto:rraszuk@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rraszuk@gmail.com</a=
> [<a href=3D"mailto:rraszuk@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mailto:rraszuk@gm=
ail.com</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 8:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D=
"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@=
ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt=
;;
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>; sprin=
g &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;; David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance m=
easurement for MPLS-SR is needed?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Hi John,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">I think I did but let me restate ...<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Imagine we have a network like below:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R1 --- R2 --- R3 --- R4<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R5 --- R6<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R1 and R5 are ingress of SR-MPLS domain and R4 is an egress. You have =
two SR-MPLS paths:=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">P1 - R1-R2-R3-R4<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">P2 - R5-R6-R2-R3-R4<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">(I know those are SPTs but this is just for illustration).=C2=A0<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">So on each ingress we need to map packets to SR paths by some match ..=
. it can be based on the dst IP, src/dst IP, port # etc ... So we record th=
ose with respect to each path they take.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Now we also record on R4 the same set of tuples.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">So now we have all counters needed without asking R4 to report P1 nor =
P2 (nor need to carry them in the packets) as based on the tuples count whi=
ch are used on ingress for mapping we can correlate
 in offline tool the exact count of traffic per ingress segment chain.=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">In fact we can also derive per path stats even from transit nodes with=
 exact the same type of offline data correlation.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Does anyone see any issue ? Is going offline so bad that we must add l=
abels and modify all hardware to be able to have comfort of using router&#3=
9;s CLI to get this data on the routers itself ?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Thx,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 1:39 PM, John E Drake &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a=
>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Or even just an extended email.</span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">John</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Alexander Vainshtein [mailto:<=
a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexan=
der.Vainshtein@<wbr>ecitele.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D=
"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sprin=
g@ietf.org</a>&gt;; David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@erics=
son.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;;
 John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">j=
drake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance m=
easurement for MPLS-SR is needed?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Robert,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Do you plan to post a draft that expl=
ains how this can be achieved without changing anything on the
 wire?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Without such a draft it is a bit diff=
icult to compare the solutions:-)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [<a href=3D"mailto:spri=
ng-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org<=
/a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 1:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D=
"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sprin=
g@ietf.org</a>&gt;; David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@erics=
son.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance m=
easurement for MPLS-SR is needed?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi John,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If so I stand by my msgs stating that you can accomp=
lish your goal without putting anything new on the wire.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">r.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Nov 16, 2017 19:43, &quot;John E Drake&quot; &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Robert,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I think you=E2=80=99re right that =E2=
=80=98SR Path Id=E2=80=99 is the wrong term and that it should be =E2=80=98=
SR Segment List Id=E2=80=99.=C2=A0
 We developed this draft in response to requests from our customers that, a=
s described in our draft, have an interface on a node in the interior of an=
 SR network whose utilization is above a given threshold.=C2=A0 In this sit=
uation, they need to be able to know
 which ingress nodes using which SR segment lists are sending traffic to th=
at interface and how much traffic each ingress nodes is sending on each of =
its SR segment lists.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">This will allow the SR segment lists =
in question to be adjusted in order to steer traffic away from
 that interface in a controlled manner. =C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">John</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" =
target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measuremen=
t for MPLS-SR is needed?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">/* resending and I got suppressed due to exceeding # of recipients */=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Dave,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Two main fundamental points:=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">1.=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths are end to end (ingress to =
egress) of a given domain ?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">SR does not require end to end paths. In fact this is most beauty of S=
R that you can add one label to forward packets to different node
 in SPF topology and you make sure that traffic will be natively flowing fr=
om there over disjoined path to native path.=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">How in those deployment cases all of those discussions here even apply=
 ?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">2.=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">To make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR segments are =
tightly coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments are
 not coupled to each other and in fact can be chosen dynamically in transit=
 nodes. In those cases there is no concept of SR PATH at all.=C2=A0</span><=
u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Thx,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David Allan I &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.all=
an@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">I=E2=80=99d rephrase this to be a bit more solution=
 agnostic=E2=80=A6.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-3916500457056651104m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m=
-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"=
>1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif">Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achieved with pairwise me=
asurement points).</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-3916500457056651104m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m=
-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"=
>2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif">Are transit measurement points required as well=E2=80=A6..</span><u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">BTW transmit measurement points without e2e measure=
ment points strikes me as bizarre=E2=80=A6.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">The view from here</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Dave</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [mailto:<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org<=
/a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mach Chen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Va=
inshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecit=
ele.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement =
for MPLS-SR is needed?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi all,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I agree with Sasha and Greg here!</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I think the first thing we need to ag=
ree on the requirements, then discuss the solution will make more
 sense. I would ask the following questions:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-3916500457056651104m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m=
-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span><u></u><u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-3916500457056651104m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m=
-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-3916500457056651104m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m=
-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">3.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Are both E2E and SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span><u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Best regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Mach</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths; spring;=
 mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Sasha,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">many thanks.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;d point to
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsr-2Doam-2Drequirement-2D03&amp;d=3DDwMF=
aQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0=
cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIV=
UWOKbHng&amp;s=3DO9dIUxKQrlwTmypTpQrHJI2ctXc1U5kWcUB1yEsqPsA&amp;e=3D" targ=
et=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Requirements</a> (regrettably expired):<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 REQ#13:=C2=A0 SR OAM MUST hav=
e the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synth=
etic</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.</span=
><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">I=
 think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is usef=
ul at least for as long as we&#39;re developing OAM toolset. And the docume=
nt will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be=
 performed both e2e and over SPME.</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">R=
egards,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">G=
reg</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtei=
n &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Greg,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I concur with your position: let=E2=
=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that ability to measure traffic carried by=
 an
 SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require OAM function for SR.</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have looked up the
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatrack=
er.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Doam-2Dusecase_-3Finclude-5Ftext-3D1=
&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=
=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNisw=
cGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DZBzVsWlwT1TW-rc8hRIu2oXOGTGFWyN8oEpwHOiK63Q=
&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there=
. </span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The only time measurements are mentio=
ned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dleipnitz-2Dspring-2Dpms-2Dimplementation-2Dreport-2D00&a=
mp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DC=
RB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOW=
r8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DQfQBqcrZK7iG73fzIFm7Pt92DgaVOiHkhujytZ0q_zo&amp=
;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.=C2=
=A0 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevan=
t, IMHO, for this discussion.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have added the authors of the SR OA=
M Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">z=
ali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear All,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy=
 network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troublesh=
oot the network. True, some will brave the challenge
 and be the early adopters but even they will likely request that the OAM t=
oolbox be sufficient to support their operational needs. I see that this wo=
rk clearly describes the problem and why ability to quantify the flow behav=
ior at internal nodes is important
 for efficient network operation. First let&#39;s discuss whether the case =
and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to disc=
ussion of what measurement method to use.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Concur. Although it h=
as some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my point of view. Network =
simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we would have to make=
 some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <u></u><u></u></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</sp=
an> Xuxiaohu<br>
M<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A=
</span><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</a=
>
<br>
E<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A=
</span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@hu=
awei.com</a><br>
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sa=
ns-serif">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</=
span>-<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=
=BD=91</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft Jhen=
gHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=
=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in =
0in 0in" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microso=
ft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></=
b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)</span><u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Goth=
ic&quot;">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"Z=
H-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<w=
br>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.=
<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Goth=
ic&quot;">=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10=
.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=
=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microso=
ft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><spa=
n lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span><u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsegment-2Drouting-2D13&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&am=
p;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5=
LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKb=
Hng&amp;s=3DxKKBtL1_7pyQ6k9hakXPemUtJJc9c8wKgw2FgwYttIg&amp;e=3D" target=3D=
"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13<=
/a>, which states:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif">=E2=80=9C</span>SR allows to enforce a flow through any topological =
path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the
 SR domain.<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=E2=
=80=9D</span> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error
 prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex and unscalable. <u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=E2=80=A6</span>=
 Zafar <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-=
bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on beha=
lf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path Id=
entifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special pu=
rpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have=
 to lose the bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course, a C=
ontroller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular flo=
w (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#39;d propose to use i=
n-band mechanism, perhaps another special
 purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with t=
he timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<u></u><u></u></li><li cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">
And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Sc=
alability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintained as =
long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, =
you may have to turn off/on the collection
 to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow g=
ranularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself ma=
y be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of count=
ers.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is
<br>
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
ved this
<br>
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original
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and all copies thereof.<br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_mpls&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeM=
K-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=
=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3D08NHkgGh3s2IUy6RcA-P=
J9m6Un8j-FQd_zZABnvAz9Q&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is
<br>
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
ved this
<br>
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original
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and all copies thereof.<br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

--94eb2c1b4fe85e5314055e22f2c9--


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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
CC: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction:ltr; margin:0; padding:0; font-family=
:sans-serif; font-size:11pt; color:black">
I concur with John.<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction:ltr; margin:0; padding:0; font-family=
:sans-serif; font-size:11pt; color:black">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction:ltr; margin:0; padding:0; font-family=
:sans-serif; font-size:11pt; color:black">
Thump typed by Sasha Vainshtein</div>
<br>
</div>
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" c=
olor=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> John E Drake &lt;jd=
rake@juniper.net&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 17, 2017 1:33:30 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Alexander Vainshtein; mpls@ietf.org; spring; David Allan I<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance =
measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Robert,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">How do R6, R2, and R3 determine w=
/ which SR segment list=20a packet is associated?&nbsp; E.g., the tuples i=
n a packet from either R1 or R5 will be the same.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Yours Irrespectively,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">John</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid blue 1.5pt; padding:0in 0in 0=
in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0=
in 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> rraszuk@gmail.com [mailto=
:rraszuk@gmail.com]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 8:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> John E Drake &lt;jdrake@juniper.net&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com&gt;; =
mpls@ietf.org; spring &lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;; David Allan I &lt;david.i.a=
llan@ericsson.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance =
measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">Hi John,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">I think I did but let me restate ...</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">Imagine we have a network like below:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">R1 --- R2 --- R3 --- R4</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">R5 --- R6</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">R1 and R5 are ingress of SR-MPLS domain and R4 is an egress. You hav=
e two SR-MPLS paths:&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">P1 - R1-R2-R3-R4</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">P2 - R5-R6-R2-R3-R4</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">(I know those are SPTs but this is just for illustration).&nbsp;</sp=
an></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">So on each ingress=20we need to map packets to SR paths by some matc=
h ... it can be based on the dst IP, src/dst IP, port # etc ... So we reco=
rd those with respect to each path they take.&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">Now we also record on R4 the same set of tuples.&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">So now we have all counters needed without asking R4 to report P1 no=
r P2 (nor need to carry them in the packets) as based on the tuples count =
which are used on ingress for mapping we can correlate
 in offline tool the exact count of traffic per ingress segment chain.&nbs=
p;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">In fact we can also derive per path stats even from transit nodes wi=
th exact the same type of offline data correlation.&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">Does anyone see any issue ? Is going offline so bad that we must add=
 labels and modify all hardware to be able to have comfort of using router=
's CLI to get this data on the routers itself ?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">Thx,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">R.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 1:39 PM, John E Drake &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net<=
/a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding=
:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Hi,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Or even just an extend=
ed email.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Yours Irrespectively,<=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">John</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid blue 1.5pt; padding:0in 0in 0=
in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0=
in 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Alexander Vain=
shtein [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D=
"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D=
"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.or=
g</a>; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spr=
ing@ietf.org</a>&gt;; David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@er=
icsson.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;;
 John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">=
jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance =
measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Robert,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Do you plan to post a =
draft that explains how this can be achieved without changing anything on =
the wire?</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Without such a draft i=
t is a bit difficult to compare the solutions:-)</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Regards,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Sasha</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:&#43;972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">&#43;972-39266302<=
/a></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Cell:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href=3D"tel:&#43;972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">&#43;972-54926630=
2</a></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Email:&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alex=
ander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:spring-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 1:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D=
"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.or=
g</a>; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spr=
ing@ietf.org</a>&gt;; David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@er=
icsson.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance =
measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Hi John,</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">If so I stand by my msgs stating that yo=
u can accomplish your goal without putting anything new on the wire.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Best,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">r.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">On Nov 16, 2017 19:43, &quot;John E Drak=
e&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrake=
@juniper.net</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC=201.0pt; paddi=
ng:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0i=
n; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Robert,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">I think you=A1=AFre ri=
ght that =A1=AESR Path Id=A1=AF is the wrong term and that it should be =A1=
=AESR Segment List Id=A1=AF.&nbsp; We developed this draft in response to =
requests
 from our customers that, as described in our draft, have an interface on =
a node in the interior of an SR network whose utilization is above a given=
 threshold.&nbsp; In this situation, they need to be able to know which in=
gress nodes using which SR segment lists
 are sending traffic to that interface and how much traffic each ingress n=
odes is sending on each of its SR segment lists.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">This will allow the SR=
 segment lists in question to be adjusted in order to steer traffic away f=
rom that interface in a controlled manner. &nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Yours Irrespectively,<=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">John</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid blue 1.5pt; padding:0in 0in 0=
in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0=
in 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<=
a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@iet=
f.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpl=
s@ietf.org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measureme=
nt for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">/* resending and I got suppressed due to exceeding # of r=
ecipients */&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">Dave,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">Two main fundamental points:&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">1.&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths are end to end=
 (ingress to egress) of a given domain ?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">SR does not require end to end paths. In fact this is mos=
t beauty of SR that you can add one label to forward packets to different =
node in SPF topology and you make sure that traffic
 will be natively flowing from there over disjoined path to native path.&n=
bsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">How in those deployment cases all of those discussions he=
re even apply ?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">2.&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">To make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR =
segments are tightly coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments a=
re not coupled to each other and in fact can be chosen
 dynamically in transit nodes. In those cases there is no concept of SR PA=
TH at all.&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">Thx,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">R.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David =
Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank=
">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding=
:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0in;=
 margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">I=A1=AFd rephrase this to be a bit mo=
re solution agnostic=A1=AD.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-seri=
f">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif">Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achieved with pairwise=
 measurement points).</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-seri=
f">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif">Are transit measurement points required as well=A1=AD..</span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">BTW transmit measurement points witho=
ut e2e measurement points strikes me as bizarre=A1=AD.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">The view from here</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Dave</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0=
in 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [mailto=
:<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mach Chen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.=
Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sp=
ring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ec=
itele.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement=
 for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Hi all,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">I agree with Sasha and=
 Greg here!</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">I think the first thin=
g we need to agree on the requirements, then discuss the solution will mak=
e more sense. I would ask the following questions:</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-seri=
f; color:#1F497D">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt; color:#1F497D">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif; color:#1F497D">Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span></p>
<p class=3D"m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-seri=
f; color:#1F497D">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt; color:#1F497D">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif; color:#1F497D">Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span></p>
<p class=3D"m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-seri=
f; color:#1F497D">3.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt; color:#1F497D">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif; color:#1F497D">Are both E2E and SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?</spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Best regards,</span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Mach</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid blue 1.5pt; padding:0in 0in 0=
in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0=
in 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font=
-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [<a href=3D=
"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.=
org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; spring; mpl=
s; Michael Gorokhovsky;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-=
spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Hi Sasha,</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">many thanks.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">I'd point to <a href=3D"https://urldefen=
se.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2D=
spring-2Dsr-2Doam-2Drequirement-2D03&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6=
Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvB=
SMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DO9dIUx=
KQrlwTmypTpQrHJI2ctXc1U5kWcUB1yEsqPsA&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Requirements</a> (regrettably expired):</p>
</div>
<div>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; REQ#13:&nbsp; SR OAM MUST ha=
ve the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Delay or Delay variation using Active (using syn=
thetic</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.</sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif; color:black"=
>I think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is u=
seful at least for as long as we're developing OAM toolset. And the docume=
nt will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may b=
e performed both e2e and over SPME.</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif; color:black"=
>Regards,</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif; color:black"=
>Greg</span></pre>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexand=
er Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Greg,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">I concur with your pos=
ition: let=A1=AFs first &nbsp;of all agree that ability to measure traffic=
 carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require
 OAM function for SR.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">I have looked up the
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatrac=
ker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Doam-2Dusecase_-3Finclude-5Ftext-3=
D1&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;=
r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNi=
swcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DZBzVsWlwT1TW-rc8hRIu2oXOGTGFWyN8oEpwHOiK=
63Q&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases ther=
e. </span>
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">The only time measurem=
ents are mentioned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ie=
tf.org_html_draft-2Dleipnitz-2Dspring-2Dpms-2Dimplementation-2Dreport-2D00=
&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3D=
CRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcG=
OWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DQfQBqcrZK7iG73fzIFm7Pt92DgaVOiHkhujytZ0q_zo&=
amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.&nbs=
p; Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not releva=
nt, IMHO, for this discussion.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">I have added the autho=
rs of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Regards,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Sasha</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:&#43;972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">&#43;972-39266302<=
/a></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Cell:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href=3D"tel:&#43;972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">&#43;972-54926630=
2</a></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Email:&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alex=
ander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<=
a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@iet=
f.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_=
blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sp=
ring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">=
zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-=
spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Dear All,</p>
<div>
<p=20class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">I cannot imagine that operators will a=
gree to deploy network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performanc=
e and troubleshoot the network. True, some will brave the challenge and be=
 the early adopters but even they will likely
 request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their operational n=
eeds. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and why ability t=
o quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important for efficient =
network operation. First let's discuss
 whether the case and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we c=
an continue to discussion of what measurement method to use.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Regards,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiao=
hu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@h=
uawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding=
:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0in;=
 margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Concur. Although it =
has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my point of view. Network si=
mplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we would have to make =
some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu </p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2</span> Xux=
iaohu<br>
M<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=A3=BA</=
span><a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">&#43;86-1391016=
1692</a>
<br>
E<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=A3=BA</=
span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@hua=
wei.com</a><br>
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,s=
ans-serif">=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8</span>-<span lang=3D=
"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=CD=F8</span><span lan=
g=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif=
">=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=BF</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<=
/p>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border:none; border-top:=
solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN=
" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sa=
ns-serif">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=
=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN=
" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=CA=D5=BC=FE=
=C8=CB=A3=BA</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">=

</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;=
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dr=
aft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpl=
s&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&=
gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN=
" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=D6=F7</sp=
an></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quo=
t;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=CC=E2=A3=BA</span></b><b><span lan=
g=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pu=
rpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN=
" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sa=
ns-serif">=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span></p>=

</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.5pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I=
 am quoting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ie=
tf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsegment-2Drouting-2D13&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&=
amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT=
-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVU=
WOKbHng&amp;s=3DxKKBtL1_7pyQ6k9hakXPemUtJJc9c8wKgw2FgwYttIg&amp;e=3D" targ=
et=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>, whic=
h states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri=
&quot;,sans-serif">=A1=B0</span>SR allows to enforce a flow through any to=
pological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes =
to the SR domain.<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif=
">=A1=B1</span>
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">In addition to creating states at transi=
t and egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it=
 unscalable. It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In =
summary, I find the procedure very complex
 and unscalable. </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Regards <span style=3D"font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">
=A1=AD</span> Zafar </p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0=
in 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><b><span style=3D"color:black">From: </s=
pan></b><span style=3D"color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bo=
unces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behal=
f of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-f=
or-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-account=
ing-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spri=
ng-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde=
-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a=
>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spr=
ing@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traf=
fic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Hi&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;=
 color:black">Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; color:b=
lack">thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have th=
ese questions I'd like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul>
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Have you thought of using not one speci=
al purpose label for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier&#43;So=
urce SID cases but request two special purpose labels, one for each case. =
Then the SR Path Identifier would not have
 to lose the bit for C flag.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">And ho=
w you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course, a Contro=
ller may query LSR for all counters or=20counters for the particular flow =
(SR Path Identifier&#43;Source SID). But in addition I'd propose to use in=
-band
 mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to s=
end counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefine=
d Collector.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">And the last, have you=
 considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Scalability Considerati=
ons you've stated that counters are maintained as long as collection of st=
atistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, you may
 have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I thin=
k that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operato=
rs. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the me=
asurement and trigger release of counters.</li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><br>
__________________________________________________________________________=
_<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains inform=
ation which is
<br>
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</div>
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</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
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rg/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
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__________________________________________________________________________=
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To: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
Cc: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>,  Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>,  Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>,  "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>,  "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Dave,

Two main fundamental points:

1.

Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths are end to end (ingress to
egress) of a given domain ?

SR does not require end to end paths. In fact this is most beauty of SR
that you can add one label to forward packets to different node in SPF
topology and you make sure that traffic will be natively flowing from there
over disjoined path to native path.

How in those deployment cases all of those discussions here even apply ?

2.

To make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR segments are
tightly coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments are not coupled
to each other and in fact can be chosen dynamically in transit nodes. In
those cases there is no concept of SR PATH at all.

Thx,
R.


On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com=
>
wrote:

> I=E2=80=99d rephrase this to be a bit more solution agnostic=E2=80=A6.
>
>
>
> 1.       Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achieved with pairwise
> measurement points).
>
>
>
> 2.       Are transit measurement points required as well=E2=80=A6..
>
>
>
> BTW transmit measurement points without e2e measurement points strikes me
> as bizarre=E2=80=A6.
>
>
>
> The view from here
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Mach Chen
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM
> *To:* Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>; Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org;
> Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
> *Subject:* [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for
> MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I agree with Sasha and Greg here!
>
>
>
> I think the first thing we need to agree on the requirements, then discus=
s
> the solution will make more sense. I would ask the following questions:
>
>
>
> 1.       Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
> 2.       Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
> 3.       Are both E2E and SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; spring; mpls;
> Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali
> (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Sasha,
>
> many thanks.
>
> I'd point to SR OAM Requirements
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-sr-oam-requirement-03>
> (regrettably expired):
>
>    REQ#13:  SR OAM MUST have the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet
>
>             Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synthetic
>
>             probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.
>
>
>
> I think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is u=
seful at least for as long as we're developing OAM toolset. And the documen=
t will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be =
performed both e2e and over SPME.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abili=
ty to
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
> require OAM function for SR.
>
>
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_=
text=3D1>
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
> implementation report
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-rep=
ort-00>
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in any
> case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
> two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.
>
>
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose label=
s in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
> delete the original
> and all copies thereof.
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Dave,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
 style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:small">Two main fundamental points:=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"g=
mail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:sma=
ll"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif;font-size:small">1.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
 style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:small">Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths are end to e=
nd (ingress to egress) of a given domain ?</div><div class=3D"gmail_default=
" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif;font-size:small">SR does not require end to end paths. In fact this is =
most beauty of SR that you can add one label to forward packets to differen=
t node in SPF topology and you make sure that traffic will be natively flow=
ing from there over disjoined path to native path.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D=
"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:s=
mall"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,hel=
vetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">How in those deployment cases all of tho=
se discussions here even apply ?</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-s=
ize:small">2.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:=
arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_d=
efault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">To=
 make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR segments are tightly=
 coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments are not coupled to eac=
h other and in fact can be chosen dynamically in transit nodes. In those ca=
ses there is no concept of SR PATH at all.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_d=
efault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><b=
r></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small">Thx,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"=
font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">R.</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small"><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David Allan I <span dir=3D"ltr">&=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.=
allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_3051534911904765766WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">I=E2=80=99d rephrase this to be a bit more solution=
 agnostic=E2=80=A6.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_3051534911904765766MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.5i=
n">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif"><span>1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achi=
eved with pairwise measurement points).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_3051534911904765766MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.5i=
n">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif"><span>2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Are transit measurement points required as wel=
l=E2=80=A6..<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">BTW transmit measurement points without e2e measure=
ment points strikes me as bizarre=E2=80=A6.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">The view from here<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Dave<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [mailto:<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org<=
/a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mach Chen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Va=
inshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Goro=
khovsky@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-u=
secase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.=
org</a>;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">z=
ali@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement =
for MPLS-SR is needed?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi all,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I agree with Sasha and Greg here!<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I think the first thing we need to ag=
ree on the requirements, then discuss the solution will make more sense. I =
would ask the following
 questions:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_3051534911904765766MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25=
in">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d"><span>1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-S=
R?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_3051534911904765766MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25=
in">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d"><span>2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-=
SR?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_3051534911904765766MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25=
in">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d"><span>3.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Are both E2E and SPME PM needed =
for MPLS-SR?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Best regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Mach<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths; spring;=
 mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Hi Sasha,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>many thanks.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>I&#39;d point to <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf=
.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-sr-oam-requirement-03" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Requirements</a> (regrettably expired):<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 REQ#13:=C2=
=A0 SR OAM MUST have the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet<u></u><u></=
u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Delay or Delay variation using A=
ctive (using synthetic<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 probe) and Passive (using data s=
tream) mode.<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">I=
 think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is usef=
ul at least for as long as we&#39;re developing OAM toolset. And the docume=
nt will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be=
 performed both e2e and over SPME.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u=
><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">R=
egards,</span><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">G=
reg</span><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vai=
nshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_=
blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Greg,</span><span><u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I concur with your position: let=E2=
=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that ability to measure
 traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require OA=
M function for SR.</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><span><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have looked up the
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?=
include_text=3D1" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there=
. </span>
<span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The only time measurements are mentio=
ned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementa=
tion-report-00" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.=C2=
=A0 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevan=
t, IMHO, for this discussion.</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><span><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have added the authors of the SR OA=
M Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><span><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,</span><span><u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha</span><span><u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><span><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><span><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">
 mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mp=
ls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">z=
ali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span><u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Dear All,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>I cannot imagine that operators will agree to =
deploy network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and tro=
ubleshoot the network.
 True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even the=
y will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their o=
perational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and wh=
y ability to quantify the flow behavior
 at internal nodes is important for efficient network operation. First let&=
#39;s discuss whether the case and requirement towards OAM is real and vali=
d. Then we can continue to discussion of what measurement method to use.<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Greg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span>Concur. Althoug=
h it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my point of view. Ne=
twork simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence
 we would have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
>
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</sp=
an><span> Xuxiaohu<br>
M</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=
=EF=BC=9A</span><span><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86=
-13910161692</a>
<br>
E</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=
=EF=BC=9A</span><span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&q=
uot;,sans-serif">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=
=A1=88</span><span>-</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;=
MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=BD=91</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:=
&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=
=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in =
0in 0in" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microso=
ft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></=
b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)</span><span><u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Goth=
ic&quot;">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"Z=
H-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<w=
br>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.=
<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Goth=
ic&quot;">=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10=
.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=
=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</spa=
n><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microso=
ft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><spa=
n lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span><span=
><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">=C2=A0</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Hi,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am qu=
oting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13<=
/a>, which states:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=E2=80=9C</span><span>SR allows=
 to enforce a flow through any topological path while maintaining
 per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.<span lang=3D"ZH=
-CN">=E2=80=9D </span>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>In addition to creating states at transit and =
egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscal=
able. It also makes
 controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the procedu=
re very complex and unscalable.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Regards
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=E2=80=A6</span> Zafar <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-=
bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on beha=
lf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Hi=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt=
;color:black">Shraddha,</span><span>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">
<span>Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR P=
ath Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two spec=
ial purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would
 not have to lose the bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D=
"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">
<span>And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of cours=
e, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particul=
ar flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#39;d propose to
 use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger t=
he LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the=
 predefined Collector.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0in">
<span>And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow.=
 In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintain=
ed as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node s=
cope,
 you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters.=
 I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for o=
perators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of t=
he measurement and trigger release
 of counters.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Greg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is
<br>
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
ved this
<br>
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
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and all copies thereof.<br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

--f403045f16a2699eec055e176083--


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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>, Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, "Alexander Vainshtein" <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
Thread-Index: AQHTXsB2OKe08a4/AEeSgx6LvofQhqMWxNWAgAAi3XA=
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 12:05:01 +0000
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From nobody Thu Nov 16 18:06:47 2017
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From: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
To: "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, "Robert Raszuk" <robert@raszuk.net>, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "Michael Gorokhovsky" <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 14:46:53 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 10:10:20 +0800
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To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Cc: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>,  "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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--94eb2c1cdc00260265055e243d93
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Dear All,
we may have lead ourselves into the woods with Readable Label Depth (RLD)
limit. AFAIK, NPUs read number of bytes of the header into the fast memory
for processing. I believe that the number of bytes is 128. If that is the
case, then what is the RLD limit? If even existing nodes are capable to *pa=
rse
SR-MPLS stack* to detect special purpose label at the BoS, then there's no
apparent need to insert SR Path Indicator more than once. Or we can use
GAL/G-ACh, as John had pointed.

Regards,
Greg

On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 8:50 AM, Alexander Vainshtein <
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:

> I concur with John.
>
>
> Thump typed by Sasha Vainshtein
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
> *Sent:* Friday, November 17, 2017 1:33:30 AM
> *To:* Robert Raszuk
> *Cc:* Alexander Vainshtein; mpls@ietf.org; spring; David Allan I
>
> *Subject:* RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance
> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
> Robert,
>
>
>
> How do R6, R2, and R3 determine w/ which SR segment list a packet is
> associated?  E.g., the tuples in a packet from either R1 or R5 will be th=
e
> same.
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> *From:* rraszuk@gmail.com [mailto:rraszuk@gmail.com] *On Behalf Of *Rober=
t
> Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 8:44 AM
> *To:* John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
> *Cc:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>;
> mpls@ietf.org; spring <spring@ietf.org>; David Allan I <
> david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance
> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Hi John,
>
>
>
> I think I did but let me restate ...
>
>
>
> Imagine we have a network like below:
>
>
>
>
>
> R1 --- R2 --- R3 --- R4
>
>             |
>
> R5 --- R6
>
>
>
>
>
> R1 and R5 are ingress of SR-MPLS domain and R4 is an egress. You have two
> SR-MPLS paths:
>
>
>
> P1 - R1-R2-R3-R4
>
> P2 - R5-R6-R2-R3-R4
>
>
>
> (I know those are SPTs but this is just for illustration).
>
>
>
> So on each ingress we need to map packets to SR paths by some match ... i=
t
> can be based on the dst IP, src/dst IP, port # etc ... So we record those
> with respect to each path they take.
>
>
>
> Now we also record on R4 the same set of tuples.
>
>
>
> So now we have all counters needed without asking R4 to report P1 nor P2
> (nor need to carry them in the packets) as based on the tuples count whic=
h
> are used on ingress for mapping we can correlate in offline tool the exac=
t
> count of traffic per ingress segment chain.
>
>
>
> In fact we can also derive per path stats even from transit nodes with
> exact the same type of offline data correlation.
>
>
>
> Does anyone see any issue ? Is going offline so bad that we must add
> labels and modify all hardware to be able to have comfort of using router=
's
> CLI to get this data on the routers itself ?
>
>
>
> Thx,
>
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 1:39 PM, John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Or even just an extended email.
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> *From:* Alexander Vainshtein [mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:59 AM
> *To:* Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
> *Cc:* mpls@ietf.org; spring <spring@ietf.org>; David Allan I <
> david.i.allan@ericsson.com>; John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
> *Subject:* RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance
> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Robert,
>
> Do you plan to post a draft that explains how this can be achieved withou=
t
> changing anything on the wire?
>
> Without such a draft it is a bit difficult to compare the solutions:-)
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org <spring-bounces@ietf.org>]=
 *On
> Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 1:53 PM
> *To:* John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
> *Cc:* mpls@ietf.org; spring <spring@ietf.org>; David Allan I <
> david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance
> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Hi John,
>
>
>
> If so I stand by my msgs stating that you can accomplish your goal withou=
t
> putting anything new on the wire.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> r.
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 19:43, "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net> wrote:
>
> Robert,
>
>
>
> I think you=E2=80=99re right that =E2=80=98SR Path Id=E2=80=99 is the wro=
ng term and that it
> should be =E2=80=98SR Segment List Id=E2=80=99.  We developed this draft =
in response to
> requests from our customers that, as described in our draft, have an
> interface on a node in the interior of an SR network whose utilization is
> above a given threshold.  In this situation, they need to be able to know
> which ingress nodes using which SR segment lists are sending traffic to
> that interface and how much traffic each ingress nodes is sending on each
> of its SR segment lists.
>
>
>
> This will allow the SR segment lists in question to be adjusted in order
> to steer traffic away from that interface in a controlled manner.
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:53 AM
> *To:* David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
> *Cc:* mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; spring <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement
> for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> /* resending and I got suppressed due to exceeding # of recipients */
>
>
>
> Dave,
>
>
>
> Two main fundamental points:
>
>
>
> 1.
>
>
>
> Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths are end to end (ingress to
> egress) of a given domain ?
>
>
>
> SR does not require end to end paths. In fact this is most beauty of SR
> that you can add one label to forward packets to different node in SPF
> topology and you make sure that traffic will be natively flowing from the=
re
> over disjoined path to native path.
>
>
>
> How in those deployment cases all of those discussions here even apply ?
>
>
>
> 2.
>
>
>
> To make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR segments are
> tightly coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments are not coupl=
ed
> to each other and in fact can be chosen dynamically in transit nodes. In
> those cases there is no concept of SR PATH at all.
>
>
>
> Thx,
>
> R.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David Allan I <
> david.i.allan@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> I=E2=80=99d rephrase this to be a bit more solution agnostic=E2=80=A6.
>
>
>
> 1.       Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achieved with pairwise
> measurement points).
>
>
>
> 2.       Are transit measurement points required as well=E2=80=A6..
>
>
>
> BTW transmit measurement points without e2e measurement points strikes me
> as bizarre=E2=80=A6.
>
>
>
> The view from here
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Mach Chen
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM
> *To:* Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>; Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org;
> Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
> *Subject:* [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for
> MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I agree with Sasha and Greg here!
>
>
>
> I think the first thing we need to agree on the requirements, then discus=
s
> the solution will make more sense. I would ask the following questions:
>
>
>
> 1.       Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
> 2.       Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
> 3.       Are both E2E and SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; spring; mpls;
> Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali
> (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Sasha,
>
> many thanks.
>
> I'd point to SR OAM Requirements
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsr-2Doam-2Drequirement-2D03&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYu=
h63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3=
HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3DO9dIUxKQrlw=
TmypTpQrHJI2ctXc1U5kWcUB1yEsqPsA&e=3D>
> (regrettably expired):
>
>    REQ#13:  SR OAM MUST have the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet
>
>             Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synthetic
>
>             probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.
>
>
>
> I think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is u=
seful at least for as long as we're developing OAM toolset. And the documen=
t will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be =
performed both e2e and over SPME.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abili=
ty to
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
> require OAM function for SR.
>
>
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.=
org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Doam-2Dusecase_-3Finclude-5Ftext-3D1&d=3DDwM=
FaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LG=
hEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=
=3DZBzVsWlwT1TW-rc8hRIu2oXOGTGFWyN8oEpwHOiK63Q&e=3D>
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
> implementation report
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dleipnitz-2Dspring-2Dpms-2Dimplementation-2Dreport-2D00&d=3DDwMFa=
Q&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhE=
WH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3D=
QfQBqcrZK7iG73fzIFm7Pt92DgaVOiHkhujytZ0q_zo&e=3D>
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in any
> case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
> two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.
>
>
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose label=
s in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsegment-2Drouting-2D13&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rs=
uhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBS=
MRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3DxKKBtL1_7pyQ6k9h=
akXPemUtJJc9c8wKgw2FgwYttIg&e=3D>,
> which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
> delete the original
> and all copies thereof.
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
man_listinfo_mpls&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoC=
I&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswc=
GOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3D08NHkgGh3s2IUy6RcA-PJ9m6Un8j-FQd_zZABnvAz9Q&e=3D=
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
> delete the original
> and all copies thereof.
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
> delete the original
> and all copies thereof.
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
>

--94eb2c1cdc00260265055e243d93
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear All,<div>we may have lead ourselves into the woods wi=
th Readable Label Depth (RLD) limit. AFAIK, NPUs read number of bytes of th=
e header into the fast memory for processing. I believe that the number of =
bytes is 128. If that is the case, then what is the RLD limit? If even exis=
ting nodes are capable to <u>parse SR-MPLS stack</u> to detect special purp=
ose label at the BoS, then there&#39;s no apparent need to insert=C2=A0<spa=
n style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=
=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif" style=3D"">SR Path Indicator more than on=
ce. Or we can use GAL/G-ACh, as John had pointed.</font></span></div><div><=
span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font fac=
e=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif" style=3D""><br></font></span></div><div>=
<span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font fa=
ce=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif" style=3D"">Regards,</font></span></div>=
<div><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);color:rgb(0,0,0)"><fo=
nt face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif" style=3D"">Greg</font></span></div=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, No=
v 17, 2017 at 8:50 AM, Alexander Vainshtein <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Va=
inshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
">






<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:san=
s-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">
I concur with John.<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:san=
s-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:san=
s-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">
Thump typed by Sasha Vainshtein</div>
<br>
</div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id=3D"m_-4615693144740630833divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"C=
alibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b>=
 John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">j=
drake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 17, 2017 1:33:30 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Alexander Vainshtein; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>; spring; David Allan I<div><div class=3D"h5"><br=
>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance m=
easurement for MPLS-SR is needed?</div></div></font>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-4615693144740630833WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Robert,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">How do R6, R2, and R3 determine w/ wh=
ich SR segment list a packet is associated?=C2=A0 E.g., the tuples in a pac=
ket from either R1 or R5 will be the same.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">John</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> <a href=3D"mailto:rraszuk@gmai=
l.com" target=3D"_blank">rraszuk@gmail.com</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rr=
aszuk@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rraszuk@gmail.com</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 8:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D=
"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@=
ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt=
;; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>; sp=
ring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;; David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance m=
easurement for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Hi John,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">I think I did but let me restate ...</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Imagine we have a network like below:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R1 --- R2 --- R3 --- R4</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R5 --- R6</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R1 and R5 are ingress of SR-MPLS domain and R4 is an egress. You have =
two SR-MPLS paths:=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">P1 - R1-R2-R3-R4</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">P2 - R5-R6-R2-R3-R4</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">(I know those are SPTs but this is just for illustration).=C2=A0</span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">So on each ingress we need to map packets to SR paths by some match ..=
. it can be based on the dst IP, src/dst IP, port # etc ... So we record th=
ose with respect to each path they take.=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Now we also record on R4 the same set of tuples.=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">So now we have all counters needed without asking R4 to report P1 nor =
P2 (nor need to carry them in the packets) as based on the tuples count whi=
ch are used on ingress for mapping we can correlate
 in offline tool the exact count of traffic per ingress segment chain.=C2=
=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">In fact we can also derive per path stats even from transit nodes with=
 exact the same type of offline data correlation.=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Does anyone see any issue ? Is going offline so bad that we must add l=
abels and modify all hardware to be able to have comfort of using router&#3=
9;s CLI to get this data on the routers itself ?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Thx,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 1:39 PM, John E Drake &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a=
>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Or even just an extended email.</span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">John</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Alexander Vainshtein [mailto:<=
a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexan=
der.Vainshtein@<wbr>ecitele.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D=
"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sprin=
g@ietf.org</a>&gt;; David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@erics=
son.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;;
 John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">j=
drake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance m=
easurement for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Robert,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Do you plan to post a draft that expl=
ains how this can be achieved without changing anything on the wire?</span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Without such a draft it is a bit diff=
icult to compare the solutions:-)</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [<a href=3D"mailto:spri=
ng-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org<=
/a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 1:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D=
"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sprin=
g@ietf.org</a>&gt;; David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@erics=
son.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance m=
easurement for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi John,</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If so I stand by my msgs stating that you can accomp=
lish your goal without putting anything new on the wire.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">r.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Nov 16, 2017 19:43, &quot;John E Drake&quot; &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net<=
/a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Robert,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I think you=E2=80=99re right that =E2=
=80=98SR Path Id=E2=80=99 is the wrong term and that it should be =E2=80=98=
SR Segment List Id=E2=80=99.=C2=A0 We developed this draft in response to r=
equests
 from our customers that, as described in our draft, have an interface on a=
 node in the interior of an SR network whose utilization is above a given t=
hreshold.=C2=A0 In this situation, they need to be able to know which ingre=
ss nodes using which SR segment lists
 are sending traffic to that interface and how much traffic each ingress no=
des is sending on each of its SR segment lists.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">This will allow the SR segment lists =
in question to be adjusted in order to steer traffic away from that interfa=
ce in a controlled manner. =C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">John</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" =
target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measuremen=
t for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">/* resending and I got suppressed due to exceeding # of recipients */=
=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Dave,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Two main fundamental points:=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">1.=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths are end to end (ingress to =
egress) of a given domain ?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">SR does not require end to end paths. In fact this is most beauty of S=
R that you can add one label to forward packets to different node in SPF to=
pology and you make sure that traffic
 will be natively flowing from there over disjoined path to native path.=C2=
=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">How in those deployment cases all of those discussions here even apply=
 ?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">2.=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">To make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR segments are =
tightly coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments are not coupled=
 to each other and in fact can be chosen
 dynamically in transit nodes. In those cases there is no concept of SR PAT=
H at all.=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Thx,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David Allan I &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.all=
an@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">I=E2=80=99d rephrase this to be a bit more solution=
 agnostic=E2=80=A6.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-4615693144740630833m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m=
-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"=
>1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif">Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achieved with pairwise me=
asurement points).</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-4615693144740630833m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m=
-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"=
>2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif">Are transit measurement points required as well=E2=80=A6..</span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">BTW transmit measurement points without e2e measure=
ment points strikes me as bizarre=E2=80=A6.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">The view from here</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Dave</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [mailto:<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org<=
/a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mach Chen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Va=
inshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecit=
ele.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement =
for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi all,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I agree with Sasha and Greg here!</sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I think the first thing we need to ag=
ree on the requirements, then discuss the solution will make more sense. I =
would ask the following questions:</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-4615693144740630833m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m=
-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-4615693144740630833m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m=
-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-4615693144740630833m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m=
-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">3.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Are both E2E and SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Best regards,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Mach</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths; spring;=
 mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Sasha,</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">many thanks.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;d point to <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proof=
point.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2D=
sr-2Doam-2Drequirement-2D03&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBX=
eMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp=
;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DO9dIUxKQrlwTmypTpQ=
rHJI2ctXc1U5kWcUB1yEsqPsA&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Requirements</a> (regrettably expired):</p>
</div>
<div>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 REQ#13:=C2=A0 SR OAM MUST hav=
e the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synth=
etic</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.</span=
></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">I=
 think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is usef=
ul at least for as long as we&#39;re developing OAM toolset. And the docume=
nt will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be=
 performed both e2e and over SPME.</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">R=
egards,</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">G=
reg</span></pre>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtei=
n &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Greg,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I concur with your position: let=E2=
=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that ability to measure traffic carried by=
 an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require
 OAM function for SR.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have looked up the
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatrack=
er.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Doam-2Dusecase_-3Finclude-5Ftext-3D1=
&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=
=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNisw=
cGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DZBzVsWlwT1TW-rc8hRIu2oXOGTGFWyN8oEpwHOiK63Q=
&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there=
. </span>
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The only time measurements are mentio=
ned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dleipnitz-2Dspring-2Dpms-2Dimplementation-2Dreport-2D00&a=
mp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DC=
RB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOW=
r8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DQfQBqcrZK7iG73fzIFm7Pt92DgaVOiHkhujytZ0q_zo&amp=
;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.=C2=
=A0 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevan=
t, IMHO, for this discussion.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have added the authors of the SR OA=
M Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">z=
ali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear All,</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy=
 network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troublesh=
oot the network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopt=
ers but even they will likely
 request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their operational ne=
eds. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and why ability to =
quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important for efficient net=
work operation. First let&#39;s discuss
 whether the case and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we ca=
n continue to discussion of what measurement method to use.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Concur. Although it h=
as some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my point of view. Network =
simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we would have to make=
 some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu </p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</sp=
an> Xuxiaohu<br>
M<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A=
</span><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</a=
>
<br>
E<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A=
</span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@hu=
awei.com</a><br>
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sa=
ns-serif">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</=
span>-<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=
=BD=91</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft Jhen=
gHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=
=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept</=
p>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border:none;border-top:so=
lid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-=
serif">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-C=
N" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E6=94=B6=E4=
=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<w=
br>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.=
<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E4=B8=BB</sp=
an></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;=
Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span =
lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-=
serif">=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=
=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsegment-2Drouting-2D13&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&am=
p;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5=
LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKb=
Hng&amp;s=3DxKKBtL1_7pyQ6k9hakXPemUtJJc9c8wKgw2FgwYttIg&amp;e=3D" target=3D=
"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13<=
/a>, which states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif">=E2=80=9C</span>SR allows to enforce a flow through any topological =
path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR d=
omain.<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=E2=80=9D<=
/span>
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I fin=
d the procedure very complex
 and unscalable. </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards <span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;,sans-serif">
=E2=80=A6</span> Zafar </p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From: </span></b><spa=
n style=3D"color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirs=
ky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirs=
ky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul>
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">Have you thought of using not one special purpose l=
abel for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases bu=
t request two special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path I=
dentifier would not have
 to lose the bit for C flag.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">And how you envisi=
on to collect the counters along the path? Of course, a Controller may quer=
y LSR for all counters or counters for the particular flow (SR Path Identif=
ier+Source SID). But in addition I&#39;d propose to use in-band
 mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to se=
nd counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefined =
Collector.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">And the last, have you considered ab=
ility to flush counters per flow. In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve =
stated that counters are maintained as long as collection of statistics is =
enabled. If that is on the node scope, you may
 have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I think=
 that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operators=
. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the measu=
rement and trigger release of counters.</li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is
<br>
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
ved this
<br>
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original
<br>
and all copies thereof.<br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_mpls&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeM=
K-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=
=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3D08NHkgGh3s2IUy6RcA-P=
J9m6Un8j-FQd_zZABnvAz9Q&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is
<br>
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
ved this
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transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original
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and all copies thereof.<br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br clear=3D"both">
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is <br>
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
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<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
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<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

--94eb2c1cdc00260265055e243d93--


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From: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
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Thread-Topic: Re: [mpls] [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 10:45:59 +0800
Message-ID: <CA+RyBmUQuCW4db=u6LfstNWu2HjTuiXLcqW0D+KRt_9++LGWRQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
Cc: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>,  Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/Rt7ca9oFkW9cqgGqW9WNHBE3wGI>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Hi MAch,
thank you for the update. Will continue looking for the common solution.

Regards,
Greg

On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com> wrote:

> Hi Greg,
>
> Not all devices have that capability, I would prefer to a solution that
> will require less extra labels.
> Mach
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Greg Mirsky
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Alexander Vainshtein,
> *=E6=8A=84 =E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A*spring,Robert Raszuk,mpls@ietf.org,
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A*2017-11-17 10:10:41
> *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A*Re: [mpls] [spring] Whether both E2E and SP=
ME performance
> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
> Dear All,
> we may have lead ourselves into the woods with Readable Label Depth (RLD)
> limit. AFAIK, NPUs read number of bytes of the header into the fast memor=
y
> for processing. I believe that the number of bytes is 128. If that is the
> case, then what is the RLD limit? If even existing nodes are capable to *=
parse
> SR-MPLS stack* to detect special purpose label at the BoS, then there's
> no apparent need to insert SR Path Indicator more than once. Or we can
> use GAL/G-ACh, as John had pointed.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 8:50 AM, Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
>> I concur with John.
>>
>>
>> Thump typed by Sasha Vainshtein
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
>> *Sent:* Friday, November 17, 2017 1:33:30 AM
>> *To:* Robert Raszuk
>> *Cc:* Alexander Vainshtein; mpls@ietf.org; spring; David Allan I
>>
>> *Subject:* RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance
>> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>>
>>
>> Robert,
>>
>>
>>
>> How do R6, R2, and R3 determine w/ which SR segment list a packet is
>> associated?  E.g., the tuples in a packet from either R1 or R5 will be t=
he
>> same.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yours Irrespectively,
>>
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* rraszuk@gmail.com [mailto:rraszuk@gmail.com] *On Behalf Of *Robe=
rt
>> Raszuk
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 8:44 AM
>> *To:* John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
>> *Cc:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>;
>> mpls@ietf.org; spring <spring@ietf.org>; David Allan I <
>> david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance
>> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>>
>>
>> I think I did but let me restate ...
>>
>>
>>
>> Imagine we have a network like below:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> R1 --- R2 --- R3 --- R4
>>
>>             |
>>
>> R5 --- R6
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> R1 and R5 are ingress of SR-MPLS domain and R4 is an egress. You have tw=
o
>> SR-MPLS paths:
>>
>>
>>
>> P1 - R1-R2-R3-R4
>>
>> P2 - R5-R6-R2-R3-R4
>>
>>
>>
>> (I know those are SPTs but this is just for illustration).
>>
>>
>>
>> So on each ingress we need to map packets to SR paths by some match ...
>> it can be based on the dst IP, src/dst IP, port # etc ... So we record
>> those with respect to each path they take.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now we also record on R4 the same set of tuples.
>>
>>
>>
>> So now we have all counters needed without asking R4 to report P1 nor P2
>> (nor need to carry them in the packets) as based on the tuples count whi=
ch
>> are used on ingress for mapping we can correlate in offline tool the exa=
ct
>> count of traffic per ingress segment chain.
>>
>>
>>
>> In fact we can also derive per path stats even from transit nodes with
>> exact the same type of offline data correlation.
>>
>>
>>
>> Does anyone see any issue ? Is going offline so bad that we must add
>> labels and modify all hardware to be able to have comfort of using route=
r's
>> CLI to get this data on the routers itself ?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thx,
>>
>> R.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 1:39 PM, John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net> wrote=
:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> Or even just an extended email.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yours Irrespectively,
>>
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Alexander Vainshtein [mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com]
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:59 AM
>> *To:* Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
>> *Cc:* mpls@ietf.org; spring <spring@ietf.org>; David Allan I <
>> david.i.allan@ericsson.com>; John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
>> *Subject:* RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance
>> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>>
>>
>>
>> Robert,
>>
>> Do you plan to post a draft that explains how this can be achieved
>> without changing anything on the wire?
>>
>> Without such a draft it is a bit difficult to compare the solutions:-)
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Sasha
>>
>>
>>
>> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>>
>> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>>
>> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org <spring-bounces@ietf.org>=
]
>> *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 1:53 PM
>> *To:* John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
>> *Cc:* mpls@ietf.org; spring <spring@ietf.org>; David Allan I <
>> david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance
>> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>>
>>
>> If so I stand by my msgs stating that you can accomplish your goal
>> without putting anything new on the wire.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> r.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 16, 2017 19:43, "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net> wrote:
>>
>> Robert,
>>
>>
>>
>> I think you=E2=80=99re right that =E2=80=98SR Path Id=E2=80=99 is the wr=
ong term and that it
>> should be =E2=80=98SR Segment List Id=E2=80=99.  We developed this draft=
 in response to
>> requests from our customers that, as described in our draft, have an
>> interface on a node in the interior of an SR network whose utilization i=
s
>> above a given threshold.  In this situation, they need to be able to kno=
w
>> which ingress nodes using which SR segment lists are sending traffic to
>> that interface and how much traffic each ingress nodes is sending on eac=
h
>> of its SR segment lists.
>>
>>
>>
>> This will allow the SR segment lists in question to be adjusted in order
>> to steer traffic away from that interface in a controlled manner.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yours Irrespectively,
>>
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:53 AM
>> *To:* David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
>> *Cc:* mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; spring <spring@ietf.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement
>> for MPLS-SR is needed?
>>
>>
>>
>> /* resending and I got suppressed due to exceeding # of recipients */
>>
>>
>>
>> Dave,
>>
>>
>>
>> Two main fundamental points:
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.
>>
>>
>>
>> Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths are end to end (ingress to
>> egress) of a given domain ?
>>
>>
>>
>> SR does not require end to end paths. In fact this is most beauty of SR
>> that you can add one label to forward packets to different node in SPF
>> topology and you make sure that traffic will be natively flowing from th=
ere
>> over disjoined path to native path.
>>
>>
>>
>> How in those deployment cases all of those discussions here even apply ?
>>
>>
>>
>> 2.
>>
>>
>>
>> To make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR segments are
>> tightly coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments are not coup=
led
>> to each other and in fact can be chosen dynamically in transit nodes. In
>> those cases there is no concept of SR PATH at all.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thx,
>>
>> R.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David Allan I <
>> david.i.allan@ericsson.com> wrote:
>>
>> I=E2=80=99d rephrase this to be a bit more solution agnostic=E2=80=A6.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.       Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achieved with
>> pairwise measurement points).
>>
>>
>>
>> 2.       Are transit measurement points required as well=E2=80=A6..
>>
>>
>>
>> BTW transmit measurement points without e2e measurement points strikes m=
e
>> as bizarre=E2=80=A6.
>>
>>
>>
>> The view from here
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Mach Chen
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM
>> *To:* Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>; Alexander Vainshtein <
>> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
>> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
>> spring@ietf.org>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
>> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org=
;
>> Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
>> *Subject:* [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement
>> for MPLS-SR is needed?
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree with Sasha and Greg here!
>>
>>
>>
>> I think the first thing we need to agree on the requirements, then
>> discuss the solution will make more sense. I would ask the following
>> questions:
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.       Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>>
>> 2.       Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>>
>> 3.       Are both E2E and SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Mach
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
>> Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM
>> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
>> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; spring; mpls;
>> Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali
>> (zali)
>> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Sasha,
>>
>> many thanks.
>>
>> I'd point to SR OAM Requirements
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_h=
tml_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsr-2Doam-2Drequirement-2D03&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkY=
uh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup=
3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3DO9dIUxKQrl=
wTmypTpQrHJI2ctXc1U5kWcUB1yEsqPsA&e=3D>
>> (regrettably expired):
>>
>>    REQ#13:  SR OAM MUST have the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet
>>
>>             Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synthetic
>>
>>             probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is =
useful at least for as long as we're developing OAM toolset. And the docume=
nt will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be=
 performed both e2e and over SPME.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Greg
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
>> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>>
>> Greg,
>>
>> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abil=
ity to
>> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
>> require OAM function for SR.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf=
.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Doam-2Dusecase_-3Finclude-5Ftext-3D1&d=3DDw=
MFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5L=
GhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=
=3DZBzVsWlwT1TW-rc8hRIu2oXOGTGFWyN8oEpwHOiK63Q&e=3D>
>> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>>
>> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
>> implementation report
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_h=
tml_draft-2Dleipnitz-2Dspring-2Dpms-2Dimplementation-2Dreport-2D00&d=3DDwMF=
aQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGh=
EWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=
=3DQfQBqcrZK7iG73fzIFm7Pt92DgaVOiHkhujytZ0q_zo&e=3D>
>> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in an=
y
>> case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
>> two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Sasha
>>
>>
>>
>> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>>
>> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>>
>> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
>> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
>> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
>> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org=
>
>> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
>> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
>> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even t=
hey
>> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
>> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem an=
d
>> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
>> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case an=
d
>> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
>> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Greg
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>>
>> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my
>> point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object.
>> Hence we would have to make some compromise.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Xiaohu
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
>> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
>> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
>> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=
=91=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=
=E9=83=A8
>> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>>
>> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>>
>> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com=
>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc
>> ounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-
>> for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.org>
>>
>> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labe=
ls in
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
>> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr
>> aft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_h=
tml_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsegment-2Drouting-2D13&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63r=
suhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvB=
SMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3DxKKBtL1_7pyQ6k9=
hakXPemUtJJc9c8wKgw2FgwYttIg&e=3D>,
>> which states:
>>
>> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
>> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=
=E2=80=9D
>>
>>
>>
>> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedur=
e
>> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
>> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
>> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
>> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
>> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
>> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Shraddha,
>>
>> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
>> questions I'd like to discuss:
>>
>>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request t=
wo
>>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifie=
r
>>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for t=
he
>>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose lab=
el, to
>>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is=
 on
>>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush o=
ff
>>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granulari=
ty
>>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be =
used
>>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Greg
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> _______________
>>
>> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
>> information which is
>> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
>> received this
>> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and the=
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>> delete the original
>> and all copies thereof.
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>> _______________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
lman_listinfo_mpls&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzo=
CI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNisw=
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=3D>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> _______________
>>
>> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
>> information which is
>> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
>> received this
>> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and the=
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>> delete the original
>> and all copies thereof.
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> _______________
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> _______________
>>
>> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
>> information which is
>> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
>> received this
>> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and the=
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>> delete the original
>> and all copies thereof.
>> ____________________________________________________________
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>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>>
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>

--94eb2c1a08789fba30055e24bc5b
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi MAch,<div>thank you for the update. Will continue looki=
ng for the common solution.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Gre=
g</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, No=
v 17, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Mach Chen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:m=
ach.chen@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">mach.chen@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div>

<div>Hi Greg,<br>
<br>
Not all devices have that capability, I would prefer to a solution that wil=
l require less extra labels.</div>
<div></div>
<div>Mach</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #b5c=
4df;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;padding:8px">
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A=
</b>Greg Mirsky</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A=
</b>Alexander Vainshtein,</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>=E6=8A=84=E2=80=83=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A=
</b>spring,Robert Raszuk,<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>mpls@ietf.org</a>,</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</b>2017-=
11-17 10:10:41</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>=E4=B8=BB=E2=80=83=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A=
</b>Re: [mpls] [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement f=
or MPLS-SR is needed?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear All,
<div>we may have lead ourselves into the woods with Readable Label Depth (R=
LD) limit. AFAIK, NPUs read number of bytes of the header into the fast mem=
ory for processing. I believe that the number of bytes is 128. If that is t=
he case, then what is the RLD limit?
 If even existing nodes are capable to <u>parse SR-MPLS stack</u> to detect=
 special purpose label at the BoS, then there&#39;s no apparent need to ins=
ert=C2=A0<span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);color:rgb(0,0,0)"=
><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">SR
 Path Indicator more than once. Or we can use GAL/G-ACh, as John had pointe=
d.</font></span></div>
<div><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);color:rgb(0,0,0)"><fo=
nt face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
</font></span></div>
<div><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);color:rgb(0,0,0)"><fo=
nt face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Regards,</font></span></div>
<div><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);color:rgb(0,0,0)"><fo=
nt face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Greg</font></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 8:50 AM, Alexander Vains=
htein <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">A=
lexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:san=
s-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">
I concur with John.<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:san=
s-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:san=
s-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">
Thump typed by Sasha Vainshtein</div>
<br>
</div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id=3D"m_-8256473535066497761m_-4615693144740630833divRplyFwdMsg" dir=
=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#000000" style=3D"font=
-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.=
net" target=3D"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 17, 2017 1:33:30 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Alexander Vainshtein; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>; spring; David Allan I
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-8256473535066497761h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance m=
easurement for MPLS-SR is needed?</div>
</div>
</font>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-8256473535066497761h5">
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-8256473535066497761m_-4615693144740630833WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Robert,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">How do R6, R2, and R3 determine w/ wh=
ich SR segment list a packet is associated?=C2=A0 E.g., the tuples in a pac=
ket from either R1 or R5 will be the same.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">John</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">
<a href=3D"mailto:rraszuk@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rraszuk@gmail.com</a=
> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rraszuk@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rraszuk@gm=
ail.com</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 8:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D=
"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@=
ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt=
;;
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>; sprin=
g &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;; David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance m=
easurement for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Hi John,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">I think I did but let me restate ...</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Imagine we have a network like below:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R1 --- R2 --- R3 --- R4</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R5 --- R6</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R1 and R5 are ingress of SR-MPLS domain and R4 is an egress. You have =
two SR-MPLS paths:=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">P1 - R1-R2-R3-R4</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">P2 - R5-R6-R2-R3-R4</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">(I know those are SPTs but this is just for illustration).=C2=A0</span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">So on each ingress we need to map packets to SR paths by some match ..=
. it can be based on the dst IP, src/dst IP, port # etc ... So we record th=
ose with respect to each path they take.=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Now we also record on R4 the same set of tuples.=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">So now we have all counters needed without asking R4 to report P1 nor =
P2 (nor need to carry them in the packets) as based on the tuples count whi=
ch are used on ingress for mapping we can correlate
 in offline tool the exact count of traffic per ingress segment chain.=C2=
=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">In fact we can also derive per path stats even from transit nodes with=
 exact the same type of offline data correlation.=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Does anyone see any issue ? Is going offline so bad that we must add l=
abels and modify all hardware to be able to have comfort of using router&#3=
9;s CLI to get this data on the routers itself ?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Thx,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 1:39 PM, John E Drake &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a=
>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Or even just an extended email.</span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">John</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Alexander Vainshtein [mailto:<=
a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexan=
der.Vainshtein@e<wbr>citele.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D=
"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sprin=
g@ietf.org</a>&gt;; David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@erics=
son.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;;
 John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">j=
drake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance m=
easurement for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Robert,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Do you plan to post a draft that expl=
ains how this can be achieved without changing anything on the wire?</span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Without such a draft it is a bit diff=
icult to compare the solutions:-)</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.c<wbr>om</a></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [<a href=3D"mailto:spri=
ng-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.or<wbr>g<=
/a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 1:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D=
"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sprin=
g@ietf.org</a>&gt;; David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@erics=
son.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance m=
easurement for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi John,</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If so I stand by my msgs stating that you can accomp=
lish your goal without putting anything new on the wire.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">r.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Nov 16, 2017 19:43, &quot;John E Drake&quot; &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net<=
/a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Robert,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I think you=E2=80=99re right that =E2=
=80=98SR Path Id=E2=80=99 is the wrong term and that it should be =E2=80=98=
SR Segment List Id=E2=80=99.=C2=A0 We developed this draft in response to r=
equests from our
 customers that, as described in our draft, have an interface on a node in =
the interior of an SR network whose utilization is above a given threshold.=
=C2=A0 In this situation, they need to be able to know which ingress nodes =
using which SR segment lists are sending
 traffic to that interface and how much traffic each ingress nodes is sendi=
ng on each of its SR segment lists.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">This will allow the SR segment lists =
in question to be adjusted in order to steer traffic away from that interfa=
ce in a controlled manner. =C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">John</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" =
target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measuremen=
t for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">/* resending and I got suppressed due to exceeding # of recipients */=
=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Dave,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Two main fundamental points:=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">1.=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths are end to end (ingress to =
egress) of a given domain ?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">SR does not require end to end paths. In fact this is most beauty of S=
R that you can add one label to forward packets to different node in SPF to=
pology and you make sure that traffic will be
 natively flowing from there over disjoined path to native path.=C2=A0</spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">How in those deployment cases all of those discussions here even apply=
 ?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">2.=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">To make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR segments are =
tightly coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments are not coupled=
 to each other and in fact can be chosen dynamically
 in transit nodes. In those cases there is no concept of SR PATH at all.=C2=
=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Thx,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David Allan I &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.all=
an@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">I=E2=80=99d rephrase this to be a bit more solution=
 agnostic=E2=80=A6.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-8256473535066497761m_-4615693144740630833m671809827882275110=
m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-l=
eft:.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"=
>1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif">Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achieved with pairwise me=
asurement points).</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-8256473535066497761m_-4615693144740630833m671809827882275110=
m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-l=
eft:.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"=
>2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif">Are transit measurement points required as well=E2=80=A6..</span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">BTW transmit measurement points without e2e measure=
ment points strikes me as bizarre=E2=80=A6.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">The view from here</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Dave</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [mailto:<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.or<wbr>g<=
/a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mach Chen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Va=
inshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>counting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.org</a><wbr>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecit=
ele.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.c<wbr>om</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement =
for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi all,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I agree with Sasha and Greg here!</sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I think the first thing we need to ag=
ree on the requirements, then discuss the solution will make more sense. I =
would ask the following questions:</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-8256473535066497761m_-4615693144740630833m671809827882275110=
m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-l=
eft:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-8256473535066497761m_-4615693144740630833m671809827882275110=
m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-l=
eft:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-8256473535066497761m_-4615693144740630833m671809827882275110=
m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-l=
eft:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">3.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Are both E2E and SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Best regards,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Mach</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths; spring;=
 mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Sasha,</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">many thanks.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;d point to <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proof=
point.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2D=
sr-2Doam-2Drequirement-2D03&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBX=
eMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp=
;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DO9dIUxKQrlwTmypTpQ=
rHJI2ctXc1U5kWcUB1yEsqPsA&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Requirements</a> (regrettably expired):</p>
</div>
<div>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 REQ#13:=C2=A0 SR OAM MUST hav=
e the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synth=
etic</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.</span=
></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">I=
 think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is usef=
ul at least for as long as we&#39;re developing OAM toolset. And the docume=
nt will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be=
 performed both e2e and over SPME.</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">R=
egards,</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">G=
reg</span></pre>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtei=
n &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Greg,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I concur with your position: let=E2=
=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that ability to measure traffic carried by=
 an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require OAM function
 for SR.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have looked up the
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatrack=
er.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Doam-2Dusecase_-3Finclude-5Ftext-3D1=
&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=
=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNisw=
cGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DZBzVsWlwT1TW-rc8hRIu2oXOGTGFWyN8oEpwHOiK63Q=
&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there=
. </span>
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The only time measurements are mentio=
ned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dleipnitz-2Dspring-2Dpms-2Dimplementation-2Dreport-2D00&a=
mp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DC=
RB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOW=
r8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DQfQBqcrZK7iG73fzIFm7Pt92DgaVOiHkhujytZ0q_zo&amp=
;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.=C2=
=A0 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevan=
t, IMHO, for this discussion.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have added the authors of the SR OA=
M Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.c<wbr>om</a></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>counting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.org</a><wbr>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">z=
ali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear All,</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy=
 network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troublesh=
oot the network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopt=
ers but even they will likely request
 that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their operational needs. I s=
ee that this work clearly describes the problem and why ability to quantify=
 the flow behavior at internal nodes is important for efficient network ope=
ration. First let&#39;s discuss whether
 the case and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can contin=
ue to discussion of what measurement method to use.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Concur. Although it h=
as some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my point of view. Network =
simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we would have to make=
 some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu </p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</sp=
an> Xuxiaohu<br>
M<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A=
</span><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</a=
>
<br>
E<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A=
</span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@hu=
awei.com</a><br>
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sa=
ns-serif">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</=
span>-<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=
=BD=91</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft Jhen=
gHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=
=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept</=
p>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border:none;border-top:so=
lid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-=
serif">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-C=
N" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E6=94=B6=E4=
=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<w=
br>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">draft-heg<wbr>de-spring-traffic-accounting-<wbr>for-sr-paths@ietf.=
org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mp<w=
br>ls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@<wbr>ietf.org</a>&gt;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E4=B8=BB</sp=
an></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;=
Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span =
lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-=
serif">=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=
=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsegment-2Drouting-2D13&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&am=
p;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5=
LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKb=
Hng&amp;s=3DxKKBtL1_7pyQ6k9hakXPemUtJJc9c8wKgw2FgwYttIg&amp;e=3D" target=3D=
"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr<wbr>aft-ietf-spring-segment-routin<wbr>g-13<=
/a>, which states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif">=E2=80=9C</span>SR allows to enforce a flow through any topological =
path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR d=
omain.<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=E2=80=9D<=
/span>
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I fin=
d the procedure very complex and unscalable.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards <span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;,sans-serif">=E2=80=A6</span> Zafar
</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From: </span></b><spa=
n style=3D"color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirs=
ky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirs=
ky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>co=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>counting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul>
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">Have you thought of using not one special purpose l=
abel for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases bu=
t request two special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path I=
dentifier would not have to lose the
 bit for C flag.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">And how you envision to collec=
t the counters along the path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for al=
l counters or counters for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source S=
ID). But in addition I&#39;d propose to use in-band mechanism,
 perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters=
 of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<=
/li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">And the last, have you considered ability to fl=
ush counters per flow. In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that=
 counters are maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If=
 that is on the node scope, you may have to
 turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I think that fi=
ner granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again,=
 perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement a=
nd trigger release of counters.</li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
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This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
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______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
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</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--94eb2c1a08789fba30055e24bc5b--


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Subject: [spring] Fwd: Re: [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: 	Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in 
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
Date: 	Fri, 17 Nov 2017 02:45:18 +0000
From: 	Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
To: 	Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, stephane.litkowski@orange.com 
<stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, 
Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: 	mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, Clarence Filsfils 
<cfilsfil@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths 
<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, Michael 
Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, 
draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org 
<draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>




I would like to ask a fundamental question here.

Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for 
MPLS-LDP as well?

If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a 
general MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.

At least some of the methods described here would work for both.

Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are used, 
that only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot which I 
understand to be the original goal.

- Stewart

On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen wrote:
>
> Hi Stephane,
>
> If you want to do transit measurement, you have to pay some cost. The 
> difference is how large the cost is, one, two or multiple labels.
>
> For E2E measurement, it could be much easier. A single label (could be 
> local or global) is inserted immediately follow the last label of the 
> SR path. Since there is only one label, the path label could be put 
> into the stack at the beginning, no matter whether the measurement is 
> enable or not. With this, it will not affect the entropy.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
> *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of 
> *stephane.litkowski@orange.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM
> *To:* Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; Michael 
> Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> Hi,
>
> Yes today we do not have any CLI command on any router to get paths 
> statistics for LDP (I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P 
> LSPs, so a transit node does not have the knowledge of the source. 
> From an operational point of  view, what we do today is that we 
> collect netflow statistics on core routers, we project the label stack 
> onto the routing with an external tool to get the Ingress to Egress 
> LDP traffic including the mapping of the flows on the links.
>
> Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as the LSP is P2P and has 
> states on every node.
>
> Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS dataplane) 
> has limited TE features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE 
> without adding too much complexity).
>
> Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats) worth to be solved ? If 
> yes, where do we accept to put the complexity ? For a stats issue I 
> would rather prefer to move the complexity to an external tool that 
> can do correlations or whatever operations rather than getting it in 
> the forwarding plane…
>
> IMO, that’s a “nice to have” problem to solve getting that we do not 
> have this for LDP and we know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.
>
> However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for sure mandatory to get !
>
> The main drawback I see with the proposed solution is that it mimics 
> what Entropy label does with a solution which is similar and at the 
> same time cannot replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far 
> from being sufficient (this is not the goal I know, but I was looking 
> for potential use case optimizations). So in a network running entropy 
> label and this mechanism, a router will need to find the ELI/EL and 
> hash, then find another special label to build the stats (maybe 
> tomorrow there will be a third one to look at and a fourth one…). That 
> starts to be a big overhead for the forwarding plane.
>
> Brgds,
>
> Stephane
>
> *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky; 
> draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org 
> <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>; 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; Zafar Ali (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> Folks,
>
> This thread started and the requirements reported clearly stated that 
> all what we need is the ability to account per path traffic on egress 
> nodes.
>
> Now out of the sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to 
> measure per path in transit nodes.
>
> Well you can do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or you can 
> do it with RSVP-TE.
>
> SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But SR-MPLS 
> never intended to become connection oriented protocol nor architecture.
>
> So I recommend we take a step back here. Or if you like first go and 
> fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to end path accounting in 
> transit nodes then come back here to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not 
> the other way around.
>
> Thx
>
> r.
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein" 
> <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com 
> <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let’s first  of all agree that ability to 
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is 
> a require OAM function for SR.
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_text=1> 
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired 
> implementation report 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-report-00> 
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in 
> any case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end 
> (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this 
> discussion.
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <tel:+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell: +972-549266302 <tel:+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email: Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com 
> <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
>
> *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org 
> <mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths 
> <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org 
> <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>; 
> spring <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>; Zafar Ali (zali) 
> <zali@cisco.com <mailto:zali@cisco.com>>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org 
> <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that 
> lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the 
> network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters 
> but even they will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient 
> to support their operational needs. I see that this work clearly 
> describes the problem and why ability to quantify the flow behavior at 
> internal nodes is important for efficient network operation. First 
> let's discuss whether the case and requirement towards OAM is real and 
> valid. Then we can continue to discussion of what measurement method 
> to use.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com 
> <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>> wrote:
>
>     Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from
>     my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority
>     object. Hence we would have to make some compromise.
>
>     Best regards,
>     Xiaohu
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     徐小虎Xuxiaohu
>     M：+86-13910161692 <tel:+86-13910161692>
>     E：xuxiaohu@huawei.com <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
>     产品与解决方案-网络战略与业务发展部
>     Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
>     *发件人：***Zafar Ali (zali)
>
>     *收件人：***Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com
>     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org
>     <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>;spring<spring@ietf.org
>     <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>
>
>     *主**题：***Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>     *时间：***2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>     Hi,
>
>     This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
>     abstract of SR Architecture document
>     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13,
>     which states:
>
>     “SR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
>     maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR
>     domain.”
>
>     In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the
>     procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It
>     also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary,
>     I find the procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>     Thanks
>
>     Regards … Zafar
>
>     *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org
>     <mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Greg Mirsky
>     <gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>
>     *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
>     *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>"
>     <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>,
>     "mpls@ietf.org <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>" <mpls@ietf.org
>     <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>, "spring@ietf.org
>     <mailto:spring@ietf.org>" <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>
>     *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>     Hi Shraddha,
>
>     thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have
>     these questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>       * Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for
>         both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID
>         cases but request two special purpose labels, one for each
>         case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have to lose the
>         bit for C flag.
>       * And how you envision to collect the counters along the path?
>         Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or
>         counters for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source
>         SID). But in addition I'd propose to use in-band mechanism,
>         perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to
>         send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to
>         the predefined Collector.
>       * And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters
>         per flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that
>         counters are maintained as long as collection of statistics is
>         enabled. If that is on the node scope, you may have to turn
>         off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I think
>         that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful
>         for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to
>         signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Greg
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________
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    <p>Resenting with fewer names recipients<br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-forward-container">S<br>
      -------- Forwarded Message --------
      <table class="moz-email-headers-table" cellspacing="0"
        cellpadding="0" border="0">
        <tbody>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">Subject:
            </th>
            <td>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
              draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">Date: </th>
            <td>Fri, 17 Nov 2017 02:45:18 +0000</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">From: </th>
            <td>Stewart Bryant <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com">&lt;stewart.bryant@gmail.com&gt;</a></td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">To: </th>
            <td>Mach Chen <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mach.chen@huawei.com">&lt;mach.chen@huawei.com&gt;</a>,
              <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com">&lt;stephane.litkowski@orange.com&gt;</a>, Robert Raszuk
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:robert@raszuk.net">&lt;robert@raszuk.net&gt;</a>, Alexander Vainshtein
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com">&lt;Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com&gt;</a></td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">CC: </th>
            <td>mpls <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org">&lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;</a>, spring
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:spring@ietf.org">&lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;</a>, Clarence Filsfils
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:cfilsfil@cisco.com">&lt;cfilsfil@cisco.com&gt;</a>,
              draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">&lt;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org&gt;</a>,
              Michael Gorokhovsky
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com">&lt;Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com&gt;</a>,
              <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org">&lt;draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org&gt;</a>, Zafar Ali
              (zali) <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:zali@cisco.com">&lt;zali@cisco.com&gt;</a></td>
          </tr>
        </tbody>
      </table>
      <br>
      <br>
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
      <br>
      I would like to ask a fundamental question here.<br>
      <br>
      Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for
      MPLS-LDP as well?<br>
      <br>
      If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a
      general MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.<br>
      <br>
      At least some of the methods described here would work for both.<br>
      <br>
      Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are
      used, that only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot
      which I understand to be the original goal. <br>
      <br>
      - Stewart<br>
      <br>
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type="cite"
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          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Hi Stephane,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">If you want to do transit measurement, you
              have to pay some cost. The difference is how large the
              cost is, one, two or multiple labels.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">For E2E measurement, it could be much easier.
              A single label (could be local or global) is inserted
              immediately follow the last label of the SR path. Since
              there is only one label, the path label could be put into
              the stack at the beginning, no matter whether the
              measurement is enable or not. With this, it will not
              affect the entropy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Mach<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
            1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
            <div>
              <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
                1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                      lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                    lang="EN-US"> mpls [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                      href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                      moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                    <b>On Behalf Of </b><a
                      class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                      href="mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com"
                      moz-do-not-send="true">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a><br>
                    <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM<br>
                    <b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein<br>
                    <b>Cc:</b> mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils;
                    draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths;
                    Michael Gorokhovsky; <a
                      class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                      href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org"
                      moz-do-not-send="true">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org</a>;
                    Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
                    <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose
                    labels in
                    draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              </div>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Yes today we do not have any CLI command on
                any router to get paths statistics for LDP (I mean
                Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P LSPs, so a
                transit node does not have the knowledge of the source.
                From an operational point of  view, what we do today is
                that we collect netflow statistics on core routers, we
                project the label stack onto the routing with an
                external tool to get the Ingress to Egress LDP traffic
                including the mapping of the flows on the links.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as
                the LSP is P2P and has states on every node.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE
                (especially with MPLS dataplane) has limited TE features
                (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE without
                adding too much complexity).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats)
                worth to be solved ? If yes, where do we accept to put
                the complexity ? For a stats issue I would rather prefer
                to move the complexity to an external tool that can do
                correlations or whatever operations rather than getting
                it in the forwarding plane…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">IMO, that’s a “nice to have” problem to
                solve getting that we do not have this for LDP and we
                know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for
                sure mandatory to get ! <o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">The main drawback I see with the proposed
                solution is that it mimics what Entropy label does with
                a solution which is similar and at the same time cannot
                replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far
                from being sufficient (this is not the goal I know, but
                I was looking for potential use case optimizations). So
                in a network running entropy label and this mechanism, a
                router will need to find the ELI/EL and hash, then find
                another special label to build the stats (maybe tomorrow
                there will be a third one to look at and a fourth one…).
                That starts to be a big overhead for the forwarding
                plane. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Brgds,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Stephane<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                lang="EN-US"> mpls [<a
                  href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23<br>
                <b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
                <b>Cc:</b> spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael
                Gorokhovsky; <a
                  href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">
                  draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org</a>;
                draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths;
                Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose
                labels in
                draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Folks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">This thread
                      started and the requirements reported clearly
                      stated that all what we need is the ability to
                      account per path traffic on egress nodes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Now out of the
                      sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to
                      measure per path in transit nodes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Well you can
                      do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or
                      you can do it with RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">SR-MPLS is
                      replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But
                      SR-MPLS never intended to become connection
                      oriented protocol nor architecture.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">So I recommend
                      we take a step back here. Or if you like first go
                      and fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to
                      end path accounting in transit nodes then come
                      back here to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not the
                      other way around.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thx<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">r.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On Nov 16,
                        2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein" &lt;<a
                          href="mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;
                        wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">Greg,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">I concur with your position:
                            let’s first  of all agree that ability to
                            measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a
                            specific transit node is a require OAM
                            function for SR.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">I have looked up the <a
href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_text=1"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"> SR
                              OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not
                            find any relevant use cases there. </span>
                          <span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">The only time measurements are
                            mentioned is a reference to an <a
href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-report-00"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
                              expired implementation report</a> draft
                            discussing delay measurements.  Since delay
                            measurements are in any case based on
                            synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end
                            (one-way or two-way), this reference is not
                            relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.</span><span
                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">I have added the authors of the
                            SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><span
                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">Regards,</span><span
                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">Sasha</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">Office: <a
                              href="tel:+972%203-926-6302"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+972-39266302</a></span><span
                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">Cell:      <a
                              href="tel:+972%2054-926-6302"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+972-549266302</a></span><span
                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">Email:   <a
                              href="mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a></span><span
                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                              lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                            lang="EN-US"> mpls [mailto:<a
                              href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                            <b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
                            <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017
                            4:28 AM<br>
                            <b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a
                              href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
                            <b>Cc:</b>
                            draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
                            &lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
                            spring &lt;<a href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
                            Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a
                              href="mailto:zali@cisco.com"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;
                            mpls &lt;<a href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                            <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special
                            purpose labels in
                            draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                lang="EN-US">Dear All,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                  lang="EN-US">I cannot imagine that
                                  operators will agree to deploy network
                                  that lacks critical OAM tools to
                                  monitor performance and troubleshoot
                                  the network. True, some will brave the
                                  challenge and be the early adopters
                                  but even they will likely request that
                                  the OAM toolbox be sufficient to
                                  support their operational needs. I see
                                  that this work clearly describes the
                                  problem and why ability to quantify
                                  the flow behavior at internal nodes is
                                  important for efficient network
                                  operation. First let's discuss whether
                                  the case and requirement towards OAM
                                  is real and valid. Then we can
                                  continue to discussion of what
                                  measurement method to use.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                  lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                  lang="EN-US">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                  lang="EN-US">Greg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                  lang="EN-US">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at
                                  10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a
                                    href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;
                                  wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                              <blockquote
                                style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                <div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                                        lang="EN-US">Concur. Although it
                                        has some values, it's not
                                        cost-efficient from my point of
                                        view. Network simplicity should
                                        be the first priority object.
                                        Hence we would have to make some
                                        compromise.<br>
                                        <br>
                                        Best regards,<br>
                                        Xiaohu <br>
                                        <br>
                                        <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                    <div class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="text-align:center"
                                      align="center"><span lang="EN-US">
                                        <hr size="2" align="center"
                                          width="100%"> </span></div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                                        style="font-family:&quot;MS
                                        Gothic&quot;">徐小虎</span><span
                                        lang="EN-US"> Xuxiaohu<br>
                                        M</span><span
                                        style="font-family:&quot;MS
                                        Gothic&quot;">：</span><span
                                        lang="EN-US"><a
                                          href="tel:+86-13910161692"
                                          target="_blank"
                                          moz-do-not-send="true">+86-13910161692</a>
                                        <br>
                                        E</span><span
                                        style="font-family:&quot;MS
                                        Gothic&quot;">：</span><span
                                        lang="EN-US"><a
                                          href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                                          target="_blank"
                                          moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
                                      </span><span
                                        style="font-family:&quot;Microsoft
JhengHei&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">产品与解决方案</span><span lang="EN-US">-</span><span
                                        style="font-family:&quot;MS
                                        Gothic&quot;">网</span><span
                                        style="font-family:&quot;Microsoft
JhengHei&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">络战略与业务发展部</span><span
                                        lang="EN-US"><br>
                                        Products &amp; Solutions-Network
                                        Strategy &amp; Business
                                        Development Dept<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div
                                    style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                    #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0cm 0cm
                                    0cm"
                                    name="AnyOffice-Background-Image">
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft
                                            JhengHei&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">发件人：</span></b><b><span
                                            style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span
                                          style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                          lang="EN-US">Zafar Ali (zali)</span><span
                                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">收件人：</span></b><b><span
                                            style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span
                                          style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                          lang="EN-US">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a
href="mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a
                                            href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a
href="mailto:spring@ietf.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><span
                                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">主</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft
                                            JhengHei&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">题：</span></b><b><span
                                            style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span
                                          style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                          lang="EN-US">Re: [mpls]
                                          [spring] Special purpose
                                          labels in
                                          draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft
                                            JhengHei&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">时间：</span></b><b><span
                                            style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span
                                          style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                          lang="EN-US">2017-11-16
                                          02:24:10</span><span
                                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><span
                                        style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                        lang="EN-US"> </span><span
                                        lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US">Hi, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US">This draft
                                              breaks the SR
                                              architecture. I am quoting
                                              a snippet from abstract of
                                              SR Architecture document <a
href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13"
                                                target="_blank"
                                                moz-do-not-send="true">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>,
                                              which states:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US">“SR allows to
                                              enforce a flow through any
                                              topological path while
                                              maintaining per-flow state
                                              only at the ingress nodes
                                              to the SR domain.” <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US">In addition
                                              to creating states at
                                              transit and egress nodes,
                                              the procedure also affects
                                              the data plane and makes
                                              it unscalable. It also
                                              makes controller job much
                                              harder and error prune. In
                                              summary, I find the
                                              procedure very complex and
                                              unscalable. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US">Regards …
                                                Zafar <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          </div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <div
                                            style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                            #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
                                            0cm 0cm 0cm">
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
                                                  style="color:black"
                                                  lang="EN-US">From: </span></b><span
                                                style="color:black"
                                                lang="EN-US">spring &lt;<a
href="mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                                                on behalf of Greg Mirsky
                                                &lt;<a
                                                  href="mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                                <b>Date: </b>Wednesday,
                                                November 15, 2017 at
                                                11:10 AM<br>
                                                <b>To: </b>"<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>"
                                                &lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
                                                "<a
                                                  href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>"
                                                &lt;<a
                                                  href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
                                                "<a
                                                  href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>"
                                                &lt;<a
                                                  href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                                                <b>Subject: </b>[spring]
                                                Special purpose labels
                                                in
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                                                lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US">Hi </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">Shraddha,</span><span
                                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">thank you for very
                                                  well written and
                                                  thought through draft.
                                                  I have these questions
                                                  I'd like to discuss:</span><span
                                                  lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <ul type="disc">
                                                <li class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
                                                  level1 lfo3"> <span
                                                    lang="EN-US">Have
                                                    you thought of using
                                                    not one special
                                                    purpose label for
                                                    both SR Path
                                                    Identifier and SR
                                                    Path
                                                    Identifier+Source
                                                    SID cases but
                                                    request two special
                                                    purpose labels, one
                                                    for each case. Then
                                                    the SR Path
                                                    Identifier would not
                                                    have to lose the bit
                                                    for C flag.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
                                                <li class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
                                                  level1 lfo3"> <span
                                                    lang="EN-US">And how
                                                    you envision to
                                                    collect the counters
                                                    along the path? Of
                                                    course, a Controller
                                                    may query LSR for
                                                    all counters or
                                                    counters for the
                                                    particular flow (SR
                                                    Path
                                                    Identifier+Source
                                                    SID). But in
                                                    addition I'd propose
                                                    to use in-band
                                                    mechanism, perhaps
                                                    another special
                                                    purpose label, to
                                                    trigger the LSR to
                                                    send counters of the
                                                    same flow with the
                                                    timestamp out-band
                                                    to the predefined
                                                    Collector.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
                                                <li class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
                                                  level1 lfo3"> <span
                                                    lang="EN-US">And the
                                                    last, have you
                                                    considered ability
                                                    to flush counters
                                                    per flow. In
                                                    Scalability
                                                    Considerations
                                                    you've stated that
                                                    counters are
                                                    maintained as long
                                                    as collection of
                                                    statistics is
                                                    enabled. If that is
                                                    on the node scope,
                                                    you may have to turn
                                                    off/on the
                                                    collection to flush
                                                    off some old
                                                    counters. I think
                                                    that finer
                                                    granularity, per
                                                    flow granularity
                                                    would be useful for
                                                    operators. Again,
                                                    perhaps the flow
                                                    itself may be used
                                                    to signal the end of
                                                    the measurement and
                                                    trigger release of
                                                    counters.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
                                              </ul>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                    lang="EN-US">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                  lang="EN-US">Greg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </blockquote>
                            </div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
___________________________________________________________________________<br>
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                    <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
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Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 10:58:07 +0800
From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
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Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi,

=20

Some comments after reading the thread:

=20

/*rtgwg-chair hat on

I wonder, who are the mighty =E2=80=9Cwe=E2=80=9D who are better than unworthy =E2=80=9Cthem=E2=
=80=9D? =C2=A0I find the wording rather unfortunate=20

*/

=20

=20

The problem statement =E2=80=93 Uniquely identify at any given node: (SID stack, =
*) or (*, source) or (SID stack, source)

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Data plane =E2=80=93 metadata encoding (label(s), VNID, no=
ne, etc)

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Control plane =E2=80=93 capability adv, context adv, poten=
tially divided over flooding facility (IGP/BGP) and an NBI (BGP-LS/PCEP)

=20

If we agree, there=E2=80=99s a problem to solve, we review every proposal made, p=
ros/cons analysis.

If there=E2=80=99s none =E2=80=93 we move on.

=20

Thoughts?

=20

Cheers,

Jeff =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

From: mpls <mpls-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@ci=
sco.com>
Date: Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 16:25
To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Cc: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-=
traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <m=
pls@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

=20

Hi Folks,=20

=20

I also agree that it=E2=80=99s not a question on requirement but about a procedur=
e (in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths) that breaks SR Arc=
hitecture, highly unscalable and complicated to implement. We can solve this=
 problem without breaking the SR architecture. We plan to write a draft befo=
re the next IETF.=20

=20

Thanks

=20

Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar=20

=20

=20

From: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 9:54 PM
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Cc: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-account=
ing-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.or=
g>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

=20

I fully agree with you that OAM tools are important.=20

I just felt that the approach as proposed in the draft would enconter the s=
ame terrible issues as those associated with the MPLS-SR entropy label usage=
 due to RLD and MSD hardware limitations.=20

Best regards,
Xiaohu=20




=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692=20
E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8
Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Greg Mirsky

=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Xuxiaohu<xuxiaohu@huawei.com>

=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A Zafar Ali (zali)<zali@cisco.com>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accou=
nting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.o=
rg>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.org>

=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-=
traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2017-11-16 10:27:55

=20

Dear All,=20

I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks cri=
tical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network. True, s=
ome will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even they will li=
kely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their operational=
 needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and why ability t=
o quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important for efficient ne=
twork operation. First let's discuss whether the case and requirement toward=
s OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to discussion of what measurem=
ent method to use.

=20

Regards,

Greg

=20

On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:

Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my point =
of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we wo=
uld have to make some compromise.

Best regards,
Xiaohu=20




=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692=20
E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8
Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Zafar Ali (zali)

=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-=
accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.org>

=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-=
traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2017-11-16 02:24:10

=20

Hi,=20

=20

This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract=
 of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-s=
egment-routing-13, which states:

=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while maintaini=
ng per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D=20

=20

In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure a=
lso affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes controller=
 job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the procedure very comp=
lex and unscalable.=20

=20

Thanks

=20

Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar=20

=20

=20

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <gregimirsk=
y@gmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
To: "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-he=
gde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@=
ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acco=
unting-for-sr-paths

=20

Hi Shraddha,=20

thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these que=
stions I'd like to discuss:

=C2=B7  Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Pat=
h Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special=
 purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not ha=
ve to lose the bit for C flag.

=C2=B7  And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course,=
 a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular =
flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd propose to use in-=
band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to=
 send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefine=
d Collector.

=C2=B7  And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. I=
n Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained as l=
ong as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, yo=
u may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I t=
hink that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operat=
ors. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the mea=
surement and trigger release of counters.

Regards,

Greg

=20

_______________________________________________ mpls mailing list mpls@ietf=
.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls=20


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--></style></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><di=
v class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Hi,<o=
:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Some=
 comments after reading the thread:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>/*rtgwg-chair hat on<o:p></o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>I wonder, who are the might=
y =E2=80=9Cwe=E2=80=9D who are better than unworthy =E2=80=9Cthem=E2=80=9D? =C2=A0I find the wording rat=
her unfortunate <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:14.0pt'>*/<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-size:14.0pt'>The problem statement =E2=80=93 Uniquely identify at any given node:=
 (SID stack, *) or (*, source) or (SID stack, source)<o:p></o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Data=
 plane =E2=80=93 metadata encoding (label(s), VNID, none, etc)<o:p></o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 C=
ontrol plane =E2=80=93 capability adv, context adv, potentially divided over flood=
ing facility (IGP/BGP) and an NBI (BGP-LS/PCEP)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>If we agree, there=E2=80=99s a proble=
m to solve, we review every proposal made, pros/cons analysis.<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>If there=E2=80=99s none =
=E2=80=93 we move on.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-=
size:14.0pt'>Thoughts?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
font-size:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Jeff =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<o:p></o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:n=
one;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>=
From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>mpls &lt;mpls-bo=
unces@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;zali@cisco.=
com&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 16:25<br><b>To: </b>X=
uxiaohu &lt;xuxiaohu@huawei.com&gt;, Greg Mirsky &lt;gregimirsky@gmail.com&g=
t;<br><b>Cc: </b>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;draf=
t-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org&gt;, spring &lt;spri=
ng@ietf.org&gt;, mpls &lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [mpls] [s=
pring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-s=
r-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-lef=
t:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5i=
n'>Hi Folks, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbs=
p;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>I also agree th=
at it=E2=80=99s not a question on requirement but about a procedure (in draft-hegd=
e-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths) that breaks SR Architecture, highl=
y unscalable and complicated to implement. We can solve this problem without=
 breaking the SR architecture. We plan to write a draft before the next IETF=
. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:=
p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>Thanks</span><o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font=
-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Time=
s New Roman",serif'>Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DM=
soNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-t=
op:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'=
margin-left:.5in'><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span=
></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Xuxiaohu &lt;xuxiaohu@huawei=
.com&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 9:54 PM<br><b>To: <=
/b>Greg Mirsky &lt;gregimirsky@gmail.com&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>&quot;Zafar Ali (=
zali)&quot; &lt;zali@cisco.com&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths &lt;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org&g=
t;, &quot;mpls@ietf.org&quot; &lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;, spring &lt;spring@ietf.=
org&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>RE: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in dra=
ft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin=
-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'>I fully agree with you that OAM tools are i=
mportant. <br><br>I just felt that the approach as proposed in the draft wou=
ld enconter the same terrible issues as those associated with the MPLS-SR en=
tropy label usage due to RLD and MSD hardware limitations. <br><br>Best rega=
rds,<br>Xiaohu <br><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div class=3DMsoNormal align=
=3Dcenter style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" a=
lign=3Dcenter></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-ri=
ght:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-family:"MS =
Mincho",serif'>=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span> Xuxiaohu<br>M<span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mi=
ncho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692">+86-13910161692</a> <br=
>E<span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxi=
aohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br><span style=3D'font-family:SimSun'=
>=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span>-<span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E7=BD=
=91</span><span style=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98</span><span style=3D'font-fami=
ly:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E</span><span style=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=
=91</span><span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><br>Product=
s &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<o:p></o:p=
></p></div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:6.=
0pt 0in 0in 0in' name=3DAnyOffice-Background-Image><div><p class=3DMsoNormal sty=
le=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;fo=
nt-family:SimSun'>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> =
</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Greg Mirsky</span><o:p></o:p></p><=
/div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b>=
<span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</s=
pan></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size=
:10.5pt'>Xuxiaohu&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.co=
m</a>&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-l=
eft:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"M=
S Mincho",serif'>=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </sp=
an></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Zafar Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:za=
li@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-f=
or-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-=
paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><o:p></o:p=
></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0p=
t'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E4=B8=BB</span=
></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun'>=E9=A2=98</span></b><b><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b=
><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>R=
e: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acco=
unting-for-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font=
-family:SimSun'>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </spa=
n></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>2017-11-16 10:27:55</span><o:p></o:p></=
p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><span=
 style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>Dear All, <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>I cannot imagine that operators will agr=
ee to deploy network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance an=
d troubleshoot the network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the e=
arly adopters but even they will likely request that the OAM toolbox be suff=
icient to support their operational needs. I see that this work clearly desc=
ribes the problem and why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal =
nodes is important for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whet=
her the case and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can cont=
inue to discussion of what measurement method to use.<o:p></o:p></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>Greg<o:p></o:p></p></div></=
div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05=
 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxia=
ohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D'border:none;b=
order-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;m=
argin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMso=
Normal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;m=
argin-left:.5in'>Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficien=
t from my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority obj=
ect. Hence we would have to make some compromise.<br><br>Best regards,<br>Xi=
aohu <br><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter st=
yle=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcente=
r></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;ma=
rgin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",se=
rif'>=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span> Xuxiaohu<br>M<span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",seri=
f'>=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</=
a> <br>E<span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=3D"mailt=
o:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br><span styl=
e=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span>-<span style=3D'font-family=
:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E7=BD=91</span><span style=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98</span>=
<span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E</span><span style=3D'font-f=
amily:SimSun'>=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91</span><span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E5=B1=
=95=E9=83=A8</span><br>Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Deve=
lopment Dept<o:p></o:p></p></div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B=
5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in' name=3DAnyOffice-Background-Image><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun'>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Zafar Ali (z=
ali)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.=
5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Min=
cho",serif'>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span=
></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirs=
ky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;draft-hegde-spri=
ng-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-tra=
ffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-tr=
affic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sp=
ring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b=
><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E4=B8=BB</span></b>=
<b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun'>=E9=A2=98</span></b><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Re: [m=
pls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accountin=
g-for-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mar=
gin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-fami=
ly:SimSun'>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span></b=
><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>2017-11-16 02:24:10</span><o:p></o:p></p></d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;=
margin-left:.5in'>Hi, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-to=
p-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:aut=
o;margin-left:.5in'>This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a sn=
ippet from abstract of SR Architecture document <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.=
org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13" target=3D"_blank">https://tools=
.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>, which states:<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topol=
ogical path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to th=
e SR domain.=E2=80=9D <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:=
auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;marg=
in-left:.5in'>In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, th=
e procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also mak=
es controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the proced=
ure very complex and unscalable. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'ms=
o-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:=
p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margi=
n-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>=
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-m=
argin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar <o:p></o:p></p></d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:a=
uto;margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-mar=
gin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o=
:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bo=
ttom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black=
'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>spring &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Wednesday, N=
ovember 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br><b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde=
-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegd=
e-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &q=
uot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&quot; &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &qu=
ot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&quot=
; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&g=
t;<br><b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-=
traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMso=
Normal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left=
:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-=
top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>Hi&nbsp;<span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Shraddha,</span> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margi=
n-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>thank you for very w=
ell written and thought through draft. I have these questions I'd like to di=
scuss:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-=
top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in=
;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:Symbol'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt=
 "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3DLTR></sp=
an>Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path =
Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special p=
urpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have=
 to lose the bit for C flag.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-mar=
gin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.=
25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:10=
.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7=
.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3DLTR>=
</span>And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of cours=
e, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particula=
r flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd propose to use i=
n-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR =
to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefi=
ned Collector.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:au=
to;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:=
l1 level1 lfo3'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:Symbol'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times Ne=
w Roman"'>&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3DLTR></span>And the=
 last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Scalabilit=
y Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained as long as colle=
ction of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, you may have t=
o turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I think that fi=
ner granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again, =
perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement and=
 trigger release of counters.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'm=
so-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>Regards,=
<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt=
:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>Greg<o:p></o:p></p></div>=
</div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal s=
tyle=3D'margin-left:.5in'>_______________________________________________ mpls=
 mailing list mpls@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls <o:p>=
</o:p></p></div></body></html>

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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Fwd: Re: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Stewart,

Is there any real vendor support and real production deployment of rfc5586 =
?

Is there any data on the max label depth such channel may be hidden under
yet still visible to forwarding hardware ?

Thx
R.

On Nov 17, 2017 03:49, "Stewart Bryant" <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> wrote:

> Resenting with fewer names recipients
> S
> -------- Forwarded Message --------
> Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
> Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 02:45:18 +0000
> From: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> <stewart.bryant@gmail.com=
>
> To: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com> <mach.chen@huawei.com>,
> stephane.litkowski@orange.com <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
> <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
> <robert@raszuk.net>, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.
> com> <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> CC: mpls <mpls@ietf.org> <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
> <spring@ietf.org>, Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>
> <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
> <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
> <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, Michael
> Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>
> <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org
> <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>
> <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, Zafar Ali (zali)
> <zali@cisco.com> <zali@cisco.com>
>
>
> I would like to ask a fundamental question here.
>
> Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for
> MPLS-LDP as well?
>
> If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a general
> MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.
>
> At least some of the methods described here would work for both.
>
> Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are used,
> that only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot which I understa=
nd
> to be the original goal.
>
> - Stewart
>
> On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen wrote:
>
> Hi Stephane,
>
>
>
> If you want to do transit measurement, you have to pay some cost. The
> difference is how large the cost is, one, two or multiple labels.
>
>
>
> For E2E measurement, it could be much easier. A single label (could be
> local or global) is inserted immediately follow the last label of the SR
> path. Since there is only one label, the path label could be put into the
> stack at the beginning, no matter whether the measurement is enable or no=
t.
> With this, it will not affect the entropy.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *stephane.litkowski@orange.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM
> *To:* Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-account=
ing-for-sr-paths;
> Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali
> (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Yes today we do not have any CLI command on any router to get paths
> statistics for LDP (I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P LSP=
s,
> so a transit node does not have the knowledge of the source. From an
> operational point of  view, what we do today is that we collect netflow
> statistics on core routers, we project the label stack onto the routing
> with an external tool to get the Ingress to Egress LDP traffic including
> the mapping of the flows on the links.
>
>
>
> Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as the LSP is P2P and has states
> on every node.
>
>
>
> Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS dataplane) ha=
s
> limited TE features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE without
> adding too much complexity).
>
>
>
> Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats) worth to be solved ? If yes,
> where do we accept to put the complexity ? For a stats issue I would rath=
er
> prefer to move the complexity to an external tool that can do correlation=
s
> or whatever operations rather than getting it in the forwarding plane=E2=
=80=A6
>
> IMO, that=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cnice to have=E2=80=9D problem to solve get=
ting that we do not have
> this for LDP and we know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.
>
> However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for sure mandatory to get !
>
>
>
> The main drawback I see with the proposed solution is that it mimics what
> Entropy label does with a solution which is similar and at the same time
> cannot replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far from being
> sufficient (this is not the goal I know, but I was looking for potential
> use case optimizations). So in a network running entropy label and this
> mechanism, a router will need to find the ELI/EL and hash, then find
> another special label to build the stats (maybe tomorrow there will be a
> third one to look at and a fourth one=E2=80=A6). That starts to be a big =
overhead
> for the forwarding plane.
>
>
>
> Brgds,
>
>
>
> Stephane
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky;
> draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accoun=
ting-for-sr-paths;
> Zafar Ali (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Folks,
>
>
>
> This thread started and the requirements reported clearly stated that all
> what we need is the ability to account per path traffic on egress nodes.
>
>
>
> Now out of the sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to measure
> per path in transit nodes.
>
>
>
> Well you can do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or you can do
> it with RSVP-TE.
>
>
>
> SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But SR-MPLS
> never intended to become connection oriented protocol nor architecture.
>
>
>
> So I recommend we take a step back here. Or if you like first go and fix
> basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to end path accounting in transit
> nodes then come back here to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not the other w=
ay
> around.
>
>
>
> Thx
>
> r.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein" <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abili=
ty to
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
> require OAM function for SR.
>
>
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_=
text=3D1>
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
> implementation report
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-rep=
ort-00>
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in any
> case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
> two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.
>
>
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose label=
s in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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<div dir=3D"auto">Stewart,<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Is =
there any real vendor support and real production deployment of rfc5586 ?</=
div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Is there any data on the =
max label depth such channel may be hidden under yet still visible to forwa=
rding hardware ?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Thx</di=
v><div dir=3D"auto">R.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 17, 2017 03:49, &quot;Stewart Bryant&quot; &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt; wr=
ote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
 =20

   =20
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <p>Resenting with fewer names recipients<br>
    </p>
    <div class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-forward-container">S<br>
      -------- Forwarded Message --------
      <table class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-email-headers-table" cellspa=
cing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0">
        <tbody>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap valign=3D"BASELINE" align=3D"RIGHT">Subject:
            </th>
            <td>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
              draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap valign=3D"BASELINE" align=3D"RIGHT">Date: </th>
            <td>Fri, 17 Nov 2017 02:45:18 +0000</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap valign=3D"BASELINE" align=3D"RIGHT">From: </th>
            <td>Stewart Bryant <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-lin=
k-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;=
stewart.bryant@gmail.com&gt;</a></td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap valign=3D"BASELINE" align=3D"RIGHT">To: </th>
            <td>Mach Chen <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc=
2396E" href=3D"mailto:mach.chen@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;mach.chen=
@huawei.com&gt;</a>,
              <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-abbreviated" hr=
ef=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">stephane.litk=
owski@orange.com</a>
              <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=
=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;stephane.li=
tkowski@orange.<wbr>com&gt;</a>, Robert Raszuk
              <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=
=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">&lt;robert@raszuk.net&gt;</=
a>, Alexander Vainshtein
              <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=
=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;Alexande=
r.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com&gt;</a></td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap valign=3D"BASELINE" align=3D"RIGHT">CC: </th>
            <td>mpls <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E=
" href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">&lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;</a>=
, spring
              <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=
=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">&lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;</a>, =
Clarence Filsfils
              <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=
=3D"mailto:cfilsfil@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;cfilsfil@cisco.com&gt;=
</a>,
              draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths
              <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=
=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">&lt;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@=
ietf.<wbr>org&gt;</a>,
              Michael Gorokhovsky
              <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=
=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;Michael.G=
orokhovsky@ecitele.<wbr>com&gt;</a>,
              <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-abbreviated" hr=
ef=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draf=
t-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>
              <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=
=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">&lt;dr=
aft-ietf-spring-oam-<wbr>usecase@ietf.org&gt;</a>, Zafar Ali
              (zali) <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E=
" href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;zali@cisco.com&gt;</=
a></td>
          </tr>
        </tbody>
      </table>
      <br>
      <br>
     =20
      <br>
      I would like to ask a fundamental question here.<br>
      <br>
      Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for
      MPLS-LDP as well?<br>
      <br>
      If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a
      general MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.<br>
      <br>
      At least some of the methods described here would work for both.<br>
      <br>
      Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are
      used, that only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot
      which I understand to be the original goal. <br>
      <br>
      - Stewart<br>
      <br>
      <div class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-cite-prefix">On 16/11/2017 14:=
46, Mach Chen wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type=3D"cite">
       =20
       =20
       =20
       =20
        <div class=3D"m_8539926704528025668WordSection1">
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US">=
Hi Stephane,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US">=
If you want to do transit measurement, you
              have to pay some cost. The difference is how large the
              cost is, one, two or multiple labels.<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US">=
For E2E measurement, it could be much easier.
              A single label (could be local or global) is inserted
              immediately follow the last label of the SR path. Since
              there is only one label, the path label could be put into
              the stack at the beginning, no matter whether the
              measurement is enable or not. With this, it will not
              affect the entropy.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US">=
Best regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US">=
Mach<u></u><u></u></span></p>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
          <div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
            <div>
              <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padd=
ing:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" lang=3D"EN-US">From:<=
/span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;" lang=3D"EN-US"> mpls [<a class=3D"m_85399267045280256=
68moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                    <b>On Behalf Of </b><a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668mo=
z-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a><br>
                    <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM<br>
                    <b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein<br>
                    <b>Cc:</b> mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils;
                    draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths=
;
                    Michael Gorokhovsky; <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668m=
oz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>;
                    Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
                    <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose
                    labels in
                    draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
              </div>
            </div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
">Hi,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
">Yes today we do not have any CLI command on
                any router to get paths statistics for LDP (I mean
                Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P LSPs, so a
                transit node does not have the knowledge of the source.
                From an operational point of=C2=A0 view, what we do today i=
s
                that we collect netflow statistics on core routers, we
                project the label stack onto the routing with an
                external tool to get the Ingress to Egress LDP traffic
                including the mapping of the flows on the links.<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
">Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as
                the LSP is P2P and has states on every node.<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
">Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE
                (especially with MPLS dataplane) has limited TE features
                (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE without
                adding too much complexity).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
">Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats)
                worth to be solved ? If yes, where do we accept to put
                the complexity ? For a stats issue I would rather prefer
                to move the complexity to an external tool that can do
                correlations or whatever operations rather than getting
                it in the forwarding plane=E2=80=A6<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
">IMO, that=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cnice to have=E2=80=9D problem to
                solve getting that we do not have this for LDP and we
                know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
">However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for
                sure mandatory to get ! <u></u><u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
">The main drawback I see with the proposed
                solution is that it mimics what Entropy label does with
                a solution which is similar and at the same time cannot
                replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far
                from being sufficient (this is not the goal I know, but
                I was looking for potential use case optimizations). So
                in a network running entropy label and this mechanism, a
                router will need to find the ELI/EL and hash, then find
                another special label to build the stats (maybe tomorrow
                there will be a third one to look at and a fourth one=E2=80=
=A6).
                That starts to be a big overhead for the forwarding
                plane. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
">Brgds,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
">Stephane<u></u><u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" lang=3D"EN-US">From:</spa=
n></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;" lang=3D"EN-US"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23<br>
                <b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
                <b>Cc:</b> spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael
                Gorokhovsky; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecas=
e@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
                  draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>;
                draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths;
                Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose
                labels in
                draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
            <div>
              <div>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Folks,<u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This thread
                      started and the requirements reported clearly
                      stated that all what we need is the ability to
                      account per path traffic on egress nodes.<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Now out of th=
e
                      sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to
                      measure per path in transit nodes.<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Well you can
                      do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or
                      you can do it with RSVP-TE.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">SR-MPLS is
                      replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But
                      SR-MPLS never intended to become connection
                      oriented protocol nor architecture.<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">So I recommen=
d
                      we take a step back here. Or if you like first go
                      and fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to
                      end path accounting in transit nodes then come
                      back here to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not the
                      other way around.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thx<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">r.<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
                </div>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u=
></u></span></p>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></span></p>
                  <div>
                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Nov 16,
                        2017 16:12, &quot;Alexander Vainshtein&quot; &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexand=
er.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;
                        wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">Greg,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">I concur with your position:
                            let=E2=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that abi=
lity to
                            measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a
                            specific transit node is a require OAM
                            function for SR.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">I have looked up the <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/=
doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_text=3D1" target=3D"_blank"> SR
                              OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not
                            find any relevant use cases there. </span>
                          <span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">The only time measurements are
                            mentioned is a reference to an <a href=3D"https=
://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-report-00" =
target=3D"_blank">
                              expired implementation report</a> draft
                            discussing delay measurements.=C2=A0 Since dela=
y
                            measurements are in any case based on
                            synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end
                            (one-way or two-way), this reference is not
                            relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.</span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">I have added the authors of the
                            SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">Regards,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">Sasha</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">Office: <a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+=
972-39266302</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-=
926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@eci=
tele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibr=
i&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" lang=3D"EN-US"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                            <b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
                            <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017
                            4:28 AM<br>
                            <b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxia=
ohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
                            <b>Cc:</b>
                            draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-=
sr-paths
                            &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffi=
c-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-tr=
affic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;;
                            spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
                            Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cis=
co.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;
                            mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                            <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special
                            purpose labels in
                            draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-=
sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <div>
                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                          <div>
                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Dea=
r All,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                            <div>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I=
 cannot imagine that
                                  operators will agree to deploy network
                                  that lacks critical OAM tools to
                                  monitor performance and troubleshoot
                                  the network. True, some will brave the
                                  challenge and be the early adopters
                                  but even they will likely request that
                                  the OAM toolbox be sufficient to
                                  support their operational needs. I see
                                  that this work clearly describes the
                                  problem and why ability to quantify
                                  the flow behavior at internal nodes is
                                  important for efficient network
                                  operation. First let&#39;s discuss whethe=
r
                                  the case and requirement towards OAM
                                  is real and valid. Then we can
                                  continue to discussion of what
                                  measurement method to use.<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">R=
egards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">G=
reg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                            <div>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">O=
n Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at
                                  10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;
                                  wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                              <blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:=
solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:=
5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                <div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-=
bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Concur. Although it
                                        has some values, it&#39;s not
                                        cost-efficient from my point of
                                        view. Network simplicity should
                                        be the first priority object.
                                        Hence we would have to make some
                                        compromise.<br>
                                        <br>
                                        Best regards,<br>
                                        Xiaohu <br>
                                        <br>
                                        <u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                    <div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-=
align:center" align=3D"center"><span lang=3D"EN-US">
                                        <hr size=3D"2" align=3D"center" wid=
th=3D"100%"> </span></div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-=
bottom:12.0pt"><span>=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
> Xuxiaohu<br>
                                        M</span><span>=EF=BC=9A</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910=
161692</a>
                                        <br>
                                        E</span><span>=EF=BC=9A</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xu=
xiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
                                      </span><span>=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=
=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">-</span>=
<span>=E7=BD=91</span><span>=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=
=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
                                        Products &amp; Solutions-Network
                                        Strategy &amp; Business
                                        Development Dept<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:soli=
d #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Ima=
ge">
                                    <div>
                                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-=
height:15.0pt"><b><span>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt=
" lang=3D"EN-US">Zafar Ali (zali)</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-=
height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Goth=
ic&quot;">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"=
font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank=
">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accoun=
ting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accountin=
g-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-=
<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-=
height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Goth=
ic&quot;">=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b><span>=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">Re: [mpls]
                                          [spring] Special purpose
                                          labels in
                                          draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>a=
ccounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-=
height:15.0pt"><b><span>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt" lang=3D=
"EN-US">2017-11-16
                                          02:24:10</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-he=
ight:15.0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">Hi, <u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">This draft
                                              breaks the SR
                                              architecture. I am quoting
                                              a snippet from abstract of
                                              SR Architecture document <a h=
ref=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13<=
/a>,
                                              which states:<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
                                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">=E2=80=9CSR allows to
                                              enforce a flow through any
                                              topological path while
                                              maintaining per-flow state
                                              only at the ingress nodes
                                              to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D <u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
                                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">In addition
                                              to creating states at
                                              transit and egress nodes,
                                              the procedure also affects
                                              the data plane and makes
                                              it unscalable. It also
                                              makes controller job much
                                              harder and error prune. In
                                              summary, I find the
                                              procedure very complex and
                                              unscalable. <u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
                                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US">Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US">Regards =E2=80=A6
                                                Zafar <u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
                                          </div>
                                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                          <div style=3D"border:none;border-=
top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
                                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span=
 style=3D"color:black" lang=3D"EN-US">From: </span></b><span style=3D"color=
:black" lang=3D"EN-US">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                                                on behalf of Greg Mirsky
                                                &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregi=
mirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                                <b>Date: </b>Wednesday,
                                                November 15, 2017 at
                                                11:10 AM<br>
                                                <b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D=
"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<w=
br>org</a>&quot;
                                                &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">d=
raft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt=
;,
                                                &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpl=
s@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&quot;
                                                &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
                                                &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spr=
ing@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&quot;
                                                &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sprin=
g@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                                                <b>Subject: </b>[spring]
                                                Special purpose labels
                                                in
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US">Hi=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black" la=
ng=3D"EN-US">Shraddha,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black" lang=3D"EN-US">thank you for very
                                                  well written and
                                                  thought through draft.
                                                  I have these questions
                                                  I&#39;d like to discuss:<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <ul type=3D"disc">
                                                <li class=3D"MsoNormal"> <s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US">Have
                                                    you thought of using
                                                    not one special
                                                    purpose label for
                                                    both SR Path
                                                    Identifier and SR
                                                    Path
                                                    Identifier+Source
                                                    SID cases but
                                                    request two special
                                                    purpose labels, one
                                                    for each case. Then
                                                    the SR Path
                                                    Identifier would not
                                                    have to lose the bit
                                                    for C flag.<u></u><u></=
u></span></li>
                                                <li class=3D"MsoNormal"> <s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US">And how
                                                    you envision to
                                                    collect the counters
                                                    along the path? Of
                                                    course, a Controller
                                                    may query LSR for
                                                    all counters or
                                                    counters for the
                                                    particular flow (SR
                                                    Path
                                                    Identifier+Source
                                                    SID). But in
                                                    addition I&#39;d propos=
e
                                                    to use in-band
                                                    mechanism, perhaps
                                                    another special
                                                    purpose label, to
                                                    trigger the LSR to
                                                    send counters of the
                                                    same flow with the
                                                    timestamp out-band
                                                    to the predefined
                                                    Collector.<u></u><u></u=
></span></li>
                                                <li class=3D"MsoNormal"> <s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US">And the
                                                    last, have you
                                                    considered ability
                                                    to flush counters
                                                    per flow. In
                                                    Scalability
                                                    Considerations
                                                    you&#39;ve stated that
                                                    counters are
                                                    maintained as long
                                                    as collection of
                                                    statistics is
                                                    enabled. If that is
                                                    on the node scope,
                                                    you may have to turn
                                                    off/on the
                                                    collection to flush
                                                    off some old
                                                    counters. I think
                                                    that finer
                                                    granularity, per
                                                    flow granularity
                                                    would be useful for
                                                    operators. Again,
                                                    perhaps the flow
                                                    itself may be used
                                                    to signal the end of
                                                    the measurement and
                                                    trigger release of
                                                    counters.<u></u><u></u>=
</span></li>
                                              </ul>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">Greg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </blockquote>
                            </div>
                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
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__________<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                    </div>
                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><=
span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
                        ______________________________<wbr>________________=
_<br>
                        mpls mailing list<br>
                        <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
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ls" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
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                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></span></p>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
            <pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">______________________________<wbr>__=
____________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_______=
_______________________<wbr>_<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuv=
ent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent=
 donc<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copie=
s sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le s=
ignaler<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Fwd: Re: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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On 17/11/2017 03:00, Robert Raszuk wrote:
> Stewart,
>
> Is there any real vendor support and real production deployment of 
> rfc5586 ?

Yes. It is used in PWs and MPLS-TP.  But it is only looked at by the 
egress PE.

>
> Is there any data on the max label depth such channel may be hidden 
> under yet still visible to forwarding hardware ?

Not that I know, but it was designed to be used only by the receiving PE 
where the number of labels would  normally be 3 or less (normally no 
more than LSP, PW, GAL).

If you are really asking about how far into the packet can we put a path 
marker that is visible to a p-router, then asking how into the packet 
can IPFIX work might be an alternative way to gather the information you 
need.

- Stewart


On 17/11/2017 03:00, Robert Raszuk wrote:
> Stewart,
>
> Is there any real vendor support and real production deployment of 
> rfc5586 ?
>
> Is there any data on the max label depth such channel may be hidden 
> under yet still visible to forwarding hardware ?
>
> Thx
> R.
>
> On Nov 17, 2017 03:49, "Stewart Bryant" <stewart.bryant@gmail.com 
> <mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Resenting with fewer names recipients
>
>     S
>     -------- Forwarded Message --------
>     Subject: 	Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>     Date: 	Fri, 17 Nov 2017 02:45:18 +0000
>     From: 	Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
>     <mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
>     To: 	Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
>     <mailto:mach.chen@huawei.com>, stephane.litkowski@orange.com
>     <mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
>     <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
>     <mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, Robert Raszuk
>     <robert@raszuk.net> <mailto:robert@raszuk.net>, Alexander
>     Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
>     <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
>     CC: 	mpls <mpls@ietf.org> <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>, spring
>     <spring@ietf.org> <mailto:spring@ietf.org>, Clarence Filsfils
>     <cfilsfil@cisco.com> <mailto:cfilsfil@cisco.com>,
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>     <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,
>     Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>
>     <mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>,
>     draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>
>     <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, Zafar Ali (zali)
>     <zali@cisco.com> <mailto:zali@cisco.com>
>
>
>
>
>     I would like to ask a fundamental question here.
>
>     Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for
>     MPLS-LDP as well?
>
>     If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a
>     general MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.
>
>     At least some of the methods described here would work for both.
>
>     Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are
>     used, that only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot
>     which I understand to be the original goal.
>
>     - Stewart
>
>     On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen wrote:
>>
>>     Hi Stephane,
>>
>>     If you want to do transit measurement, you have to pay some cost.
>>     The difference is how large the cost is, one, two or multiple labels.
>>
>>     For E2E measurement, it could be much easier. A single label
>>     (could be local or global) is inserted immediately follow the
>>     last label of the SR path. Since there is only one label, the
>>     path label could be put into the stack at the beginning, no
>>     matter whether the measurement is enable or not. With this, it
>>     will not affect the entropy.
>>
>>     Best regards,
>>
>>     Mach
>>
>>     *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
>>     *stephane.litkowski@orange.com <mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
>>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM
>>     *To:* Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein
>>     *Cc:* mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils;
>>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; Michael
>>     Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org
>>     <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali)
>>     *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>>     Hi,
>>
>>     Yes today we do not have any CLI command on any router to get
>>     paths statistics for LDP (I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is
>>     based on MP2P LSPs, so a transit node does not have the knowledge
>>     of the source. From an operational point of  view, what we do
>>     today is that we collect netflow statistics on core routers, we
>>     project the label stack onto the routing with an external tool to
>>     get the Ingress to Egress LDP traffic including the mapping of
>>     the flows on the links.
>>
>>     Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as the LSP is P2P and
>>     has states on every node.
>>
>>     Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS
>>     dataplane) has limited TE features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP
>>     does in SRTE without adding too much complexity).
>>
>>     Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats) worth to be solved ?
>>     If yes, where do we accept to put the complexity ? For a stats
>>     issue I would rather prefer to move the complexity to an external
>>     tool that can do correlations or whatever operations rather than
>>     getting it in the forwarding plane…
>>
>>     IMO, that’s a “nice to have” problem to solve getting that we do
>>     not have this for LDP and we know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.
>>
>>     However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for sure mandatory to get !
>>
>>     The main drawback I see with the proposed solution is that it
>>     mimics what Entropy label does with a solution which is similar
>>     and at the same time cannot replace entropy label as the provided
>>     entropy is far from being sufficient (this is not the goal I
>>     know, but I was looking for potential use case optimizations). So
>>     in a network running entropy label and this mechanism, a router
>>     will need to find the ELI/EL and hash, then find another special
>>     label to build the stats (maybe tomorrow there will be a third
>>     one to look at and a fourth one…). That starts to be a big
>>     overhead for the forwarding plane.
>>
>>     Brgds,
>>
>>     Stephane
>>
>>     *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Robert
>>     Raszuk
>>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23
>>     *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
>>     *Cc:* spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky;
>>     draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org
>>     <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>;
>>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; Zafar Ali (zali)
>>     *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>>     Folks,
>>
>>     This thread started and the requirements reported clearly stated
>>     that all what we need is the ability to account per path traffic
>>     on egress nodes.
>>
>>     Now out of the sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to
>>     measure per path in transit nodes.
>>
>>     Well you can do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or you
>>     can do it with RSVP-TE.
>>
>>     SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But
>>     SR-MPLS never intended to become connection oriented protocol nor
>>     architecture.
>>
>>     So I recommend we take a step back here. Or if you like first go
>>     and fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to end path
>>     accounting in transit nodes then come back here to ask for the
>>     same in SR-MPLS. Not the other way around.
>>
>>     Thx
>>
>>     r.
>>
>>     On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein"
>>     <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>>     <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     Greg,
>>
>>     I concur with your position: let’s first  of all agree that
>>     ability to measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific
>>     transit node is a require OAM function for SR.
>>
>>     I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
>>     <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_text=1>
>>     draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>>
>>     The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an
>>     expired implementation report
>>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-report-00>
>>     draft discussing delay measurements. Since delay measurements are
>>     in any case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end
>>     (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for
>>     this discussion.
>>
>>     I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>>
>>     Regards,
>>
>>     Sasha
>>
>>     Office: +972-39266302 <tel:+972%203-926-6302>
>>
>>     Cell: +972-549266302 <tel:+972%2054-926-6302>
>>
>>     Email: Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>>     <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
>>
>>     *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org
>>     <mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
>>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
>>     *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>>
>>     *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>     <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>;
>>     spring <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>; Zafar Ali
>>     (zali) <zali@cisco.com <mailto:zali@cisco.com>>; mpls
>>     <mpls@ietf.org <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>
>>     *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>>     Dear All,
>>
>>     I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that
>>     lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot
>>     the network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the early
>>     adopters but even they will likely request that the OAM toolbox
>>     be sufficient to support their operational needs. I see that this
>>     work clearly describes the problem and why ability to quantify
>>     the flow behavior at internal nodes is important for efficient
>>     network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
>>     requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue
>>     to discussion of what measurement method to use.
>>
>>     Regards,
>>
>>     Greg
>>
>>     On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com
>>     <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient
>>         from my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first
>>         priority object. Hence we would have to make some compromise.
>>
>>         Best regards,
>>         Xiaohu
>>
>>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>         徐小虎Xuxiaohu
>>         M：+86-13910161692 <tel:+86-13910161692>
>>         E：xuxiaohu@huawei.com <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
>>         产品与解决方案-网络战略与业务发展部
>>         Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>>
>>         *发件人：***Zafar Ali (zali)
>>
>>         *收件人：***Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>         <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>>         <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org
>>         <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>;spring<spring@ietf.org
>>         <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>
>>
>>         *主**题：***Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>>         draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>>         *时间：***2017-11-16 02:24:10
>>
>>         Hi,
>>
>>         This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet
>>         from abstract of SR Architecture document
>>         https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13
>>         <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13>,
>>         which states:
>>
>>         “SR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path
>>         while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to
>>         the SR domain.”
>>
>>         In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes,
>>         the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it
>>         unscalable. It also makes controller job much harder and
>>         error prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex
>>         and unscalable.
>>
>>         Thanks
>>
>>         Regards … Zafar
>>
>>         *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org
>>         <mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Greg Mirsky
>>         <gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>
>>         *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
>>         *To:
>>         *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>>         <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>"
>>         <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>>         <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>,
>>         "mpls@ietf.org <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>" <mpls@ietf.org
>>         <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>, "spring@ietf.org
>>         <mailto:spring@ietf.org>" <spring@ietf.org
>>         <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>
>>         *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
>>         draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>>         Hi Shraddha,
>>
>>         thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I
>>         have these questions I'd like to discuss:
>>
>>           * Have you thought of using not one special purpose label
>>             for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source
>>             SID cases but request two special purpose labels, one for
>>             each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have to
>>             lose the bit for C flag.
>>           * And how you envision to collect the counters along the
>>             path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all
>>             counters or counters for the particular flow (SR Path
>>             Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd propose to
>>             use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose
>>             label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same
>>             flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.
>>           * And the last, have you considered ability to flush
>>             counters per flow. In Scalability Considerations you've
>>             stated that counters are maintained as long as collection
>>             of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope,
>>             you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off
>>             some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per
>>             flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again,
>>             perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of
>>             the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>>
>>         Regards,
>>
>>         Greg
>>
>>
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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 17/11/2017 03:00, Robert Raszuk
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+b+ERm5xp56juAw+qw2jKgw5h8=ybphoAt=1ASm15rgHRYVMg@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="auto">Stewart,
        <div dir="auto"><br>
        </div>
        <div dir="auto">Is there any real vendor support and real
          production deployment of rfc5586 ?</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Yes. It is used in PWs and MPLS-TP.  But it is only looked at by the
    egress PE.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+b+ERm5xp56juAw+qw2jKgw5h8=ybphoAt=1ASm15rgHRYVMg@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="auto">
        <div dir="auto"><br>
        </div>
        <div dir="auto">Is there any data on the max label depth such
          channel may be hidden under yet still visible to forwarding
          hardware ?</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Not that I know, but it was designed to be used only by the
    receiving PE where the number of labels would  normally be 3 or less
    (normally no more than LSP, PW, GAL).<br>
    <br>
    If you are really asking about how far into the packet can we put a
    path marker that is visible to a p-router, then asking how into the
    packet can IPFIX work might be an alternative way to gather the
    information you need.<br>
    <br>
    - Stewart<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 17/11/2017 03:00, Robert Raszuk
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+b+ERm5xp56juAw+qw2jKgw5h8=ybphoAt=1ASm15rgHRYVMg@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="auto">Stewart,
        <div dir="auto"><br>
        </div>
        <div dir="auto">Is there any real vendor support and real
          production deployment of rfc5586 ?</div>
        <div dir="auto"><br>
        </div>
        <div dir="auto">Is there any data on the max label depth such
          channel may be hidden under yet still visible to forwarding
          hardware ?</div>
        <div dir="auto"><br>
        </div>
        <div dir="auto">Thx</div>
        <div dir="auto">R.</div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Nov 17, 2017 03:49, "Stewart Bryant"
          &lt;<a href="mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com"
            moz-do-not-send="true">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt;
          wrote:<br type="attribution">
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
              <p>Resenting with fewer names recipients<br>
              </p>
              <div class="m_8539926704528025668moz-forward-container">S<br>
                -------- Forwarded Message --------
                <table
                  class="m_8539926704528025668moz-email-headers-table"
                  cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">
                  <tbody>
                    <tr>
                      <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE"
                        align="RIGHT">Subject: </th>
                      <td>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
                        draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</td>
                    </tr>
                    <tr>
                      <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE"
                        align="RIGHT">Date: </th>
                      <td>Fri, 17 Nov 2017 02:45:18 +0000</td>
                    </tr>
                    <tr>
                      <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE"
                        align="RIGHT">From: </th>
                      <td>Stewart Bryant <a
                          class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;stewart.bryant@gmail.com&gt;</a></td>
                    </tr>
                    <tr>
                      <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE"
                        align="RIGHT">To: </th>
                      <td>Mach Chen <a
                          class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:mach.chen@huawei.com"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;mach.chen@huawei.com&gt;</a>,
                        <a
                          class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                          href="mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a>
                        <a
                          class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;stephane.litkowski@orange.<wbr>com&gt;</a>,
                        Robert Raszuk <a
                          class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:robert@raszuk.net"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;robert@raszuk.net&gt;</a>,
                        Alexander Vainshtein <a
                          class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com&gt;</a></td>
                    </tr>
                    <tr>
                      <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE"
                        align="RIGHT">CC: </th>
                      <td>mpls <a
                          class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target="_blank"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;</a>,
                        spring <a
                          class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:spring@ietf.org" target="_blank"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;</a>,
                        Clarence Filsfils <a
                          class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:cfilsfil@cisco.com"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;cfilsfil@cisco.com&gt;</a>,
                        draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths
                        <a
                          class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org&gt;</a>,
                        Michael Gorokhovsky <a
                          class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.<wbr>com&gt;</a>,
                        <a
                          class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target="_blank"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>
                        <a
                          class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target="_blank"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;draft-ietf-spring-oam-<wbr>usecase@ietf.org&gt;</a>,
                        Zafar Ali (zali) <a
                          class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:zali@cisco.com" target="_blank"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;zali@cisco.com&gt;</a></td>
                    </tr>
                  </tbody>
                </table>
                <br>
                <br>
                <br>
                I would like to ask a fundamental question here.<br>
                <br>
                Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we
                need it for MPLS-LDP as well?<br>
                <br>
                If we need it for both, then we need to have this
                discussion in a general MPLS context and not in an
                MPLS-SR specific context.<br>
                <br>
                At least some of the methods described here would work
                for both.<br>
                <br>
                Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal
                paths are used, that only tells us the approximate path,
                not the hotspot which I understand to be the original
                goal. <br>
                <br>
                - Stewart<br>
                <br>
                <div class="m_8539926704528025668moz-cite-prefix">On
                  16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen wrote:<br>
                </div>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div class="m_8539926704528025668WordSection1">
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                        lang="EN-US">Hi Stephane,</span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                        lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                        lang="EN-US">If you want to do transit
                        measurement, you have to pay some cost. The
                        difference is how large the cost is, one, two or
                        multiple labels.</span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                        lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                        lang="EN-US">For E2E measurement, it could be
                        much easier. A single label (could be local or
                        global) is inserted immediately follow the last
                        label of the SR path. Since there is only one
                        label, the path label could be put into the
                        stack at the beginning, no matter whether the
                        measurement is enable or not. With this, it will
                        not affect the entropy.</span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                        lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                        lang="EN-US">Best regards,</span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                        lang="EN-US">Mach</span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                        lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                    <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
                      1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
                      <div>
                        <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df
                          1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                                lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                              lang="EN-US"> mpls [<a
                                class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-freetext"
                                href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                              <b>On Behalf Of </b><a
                                class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com" target="_blank"
                                moz-do-not-send="true">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a><br>
                              <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017
                              6:49 PM<br>
                              <b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; Alexander
                              Vainshtein<br>
                              <b>Cc:</b> mpls; spring; Clarence
                              Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths;
                              Michael Gorokhovsky; <a
                                class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target="_blank"
                                moz-do-not-send="true">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>;
                              Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
                              <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring]
                              Special purpose labels in
                              draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US">Hi,</span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US">Yes today we do not have any CLI
                          command on any router to get paths statistics
                          for LDP (I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is
                          based on MP2P LSPs, so a transit node does not
                          have the knowledge of the source. From an
                          operational point of  view, what we do today
                          is that we collect netflow statistics on core
                          routers, we project the label stack onto the
                          routing with an external tool to get the
                          Ingress to Egress LDP traffic including the
                          mapping of the flows on the links.</span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US">Now for RSVP, we do have such
                          statistics as the LSP is P2P and has states on
                          every node.</span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US">Robert mentioned correctly that
                          SR-TE (especially with MPLS dataplane) has
                          limited TE features (we cannot mimic all what
                          RSVP does in SRTE without adding too much
                          complexity).</span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US">Thus, is it a problem (transit
                          node stats) worth to be solved ? If yes, where
                          do we accept to put the complexity ? For a
                          stats issue I would rather prefer to move the
                          complexity to an external tool that can do
                          correlations or whatever operations rather
                          than getting it in the forwarding plane…</span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US">IMO, that’s a “nice to have”
                          problem to solve getting that we do not have
                          this for LDP and we know the limitations of
                          SR-TE MPLS.</span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US">However, Ingress stats per SRTE
                          LSP are for sure mandatory to get ! </span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US">The main drawback I see with the
                          proposed solution is that it mimics what
                          Entropy label does with a solution which is
                          similar and at the same time cannot replace
                          entropy label as the provided entropy is far
                          from being sufficient (this is not the goal I
                          know, but I was looking for potential use case
                          optimizations). So in a network running
                          entropy label and this mechanism, a router
                          will need to find the ELI/EL and hash, then
                          find another special label to build the stats
                          (maybe tomorrow there will be a third one to
                          look at and a fourth one…). That starts to be
                          a big overhead for the forwarding plane. </span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US">Brgds,</span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US">Stephane</span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                            lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                          lang="EN-US"> mpls [<a
                            href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                          <b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
                          <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23<br>
                          <b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
                          <b>Cc:</b> spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls;
                          Michael Gorokhovsky; <a
                            href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
                            draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>;
                          draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths;
                          Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
                          <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special
                          purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Folks,</span></p>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">This
                                thread started and the requirements
                                reported clearly stated that all what we
                                need is the ability to account per path
                                traffic on egress nodes.</span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Now
                                out of the sudden I see requirement
                                popping up to be able to measure per
                                path in transit nodes.</span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Well
                                you can do it today with SRv6 if your
                                hardware allows or you can do it with
                                RSVP-TE.</span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">SR-MPLS
                                is replacing LDP and adds ability for
                                limited TE. But SR-MPLS never intended
                                to become connection oriented protocol
                                nor architecture.</span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">So I
                                recommend we take a step back here. Or
                                if you like first go and fix basic MPLS
                                LDP LSPs to allow per end to end path
                                accounting in transit nodes then come
                                back here to ask for the same in
                                SR-MPLS. Not the other way around.</span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thx</span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">r.</span></p>
                          </div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On
                                  Nov 16, 2017 16:12, "Alexander
                                  Vainshtein" &lt;<a
                                    href="mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;
                                  wrote:</span></p>
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US">Greg,</span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US">I concur with your
                                      position: let’s first  of all
                                      agree that ability to measure
                                      traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in
                                      a specific transit node is a
                                      require OAM function for SR.</span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US"> </span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US">I have looked up the
                                      <a
href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_text=1"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"> SR OAM
                                        Use Cases</a> draft, and I did
                                      not find any relevant use cases
                                      there. </span> <span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US">The only time
                                      measurements are mentioned is a
                                      reference to an <a
href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-report-00"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"> expired
                                        implementation report</a> draft
                                      discussing delay measurements. 
                                      Since delay measurements are in
                                      any case based on synthetic
                                      traffic, and are always end-to-end
                                      (one-way or two-way), this
                                      reference is not relevant, IMHO,
                                      for this discussion.</span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US"> </span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US">I have added the
                                      authors of the SR OAM Use Cases
                                      draft to tis thread.</span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US"> </span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US">Regards,</span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US">Sasha</span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US"> </span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US">Office: <a
                                        href="tel:+972%203-926-6302"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">+972-39266302</a></span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US">Cell:      <a
                                        href="tel:+972%2054-926-6302"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">+972-549266302</a></span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US">Email:   <a
                                        href="mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US"> </span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                                        lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                                      lang="EN-US"> mpls [mailto:<a
                                        href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                                      <b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
                                      <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November
                                      16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
                                      <b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a
                                        href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                      <b>Cc:</b>
                                      draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths
                                      &lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;;
                                      spring &lt;<a
                                        href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
                                      Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a
                                        href="mailto:zali@cisco.com"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;
                                      mpls &lt;<a
                                        href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                                      <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls]
                                      [spring] Special purpose labels in
                                      draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                        lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                          lang="EN-US">Dear All,</span></p>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                            lang="EN-US">I cannot
                                            imagine that operators will
                                            agree to deploy network that
                                            lacks critical OAM tools to
                                            monitor performance and
                                            troubleshoot the network.
                                            True, some will brave the
                                            challenge and be the early
                                            adopters but even they will
                                            likely request that the OAM
                                            toolbox be sufficient to
                                            support their operational
                                            needs. I see that this work
                                            clearly describes the
                                            problem and why ability to
                                            quantify the flow behavior
                                            at internal nodes is
                                            important for efficient
                                            network operation. First
                                            let's discuss whether the
                                            case and requirement towards
                                            OAM is real and valid. Then
                                            we can continue to
                                            discussion of what
                                            measurement method to use.</span></p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                            lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                            lang="EN-US">Regards,</span></p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                            lang="EN-US">Greg</span></p>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                          lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                            lang="EN-US">On Thu, Nov 16,
                                            2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu
                                            &lt;<a
                                              href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                                              target="_blank"
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;
                                            wrote:</span></p>
                                        <blockquote
                                          style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                          #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm
                                          0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                          <div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                                                  lang="EN-US">Concur.
                                                  Although it has some
                                                  values, it's not
                                                  cost-efficient from my
                                                  point of view. Network
                                                  simplicity should be
                                                  the first priority
                                                  object. Hence we would
                                                  have to make some
                                                  compromise.<br>
                                                  <br>
                                                  Best regards,<br>
                                                  Xiaohu <br>
                                                  <br>
                                                </span></p>
                                              <div class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="text-align:center"
                                                align="center"><span
                                                  lang="EN-US">
                                                  <hr size="2"
                                                    align="center"
                                                    width="100%"> </span></div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span>徐小虎</span><span
                                                  lang="EN-US"> Xuxiaohu<br>
                                                  M</span><span>：</span><span
                                                  lang="EN-US"><a
                                                    href="tel:+86-13910161692"
                                                    target="_blank"
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true">+86-13910161692</a>
                                                  <br>
                                                  E</span><span>：</span><span
                                                  lang="EN-US"><a
                                                    href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                                                    target="_blank"
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
                                                </span><span>产品与解决方案</span><span
                                                  lang="EN-US">-</span><span>网</span><span>络战略与业务发展部</span><span
                                                  lang="EN-US"><br>
                                                  Products &amp;
                                                  Solutions-Network
                                                  Strategy &amp;
                                                  Business Development
                                                  Dept</span></p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div
                                              style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                              #b5c4df
                                              1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0cm
                                              0cm 0cm"
                                              name="AnyOffice-Background-Image">
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="line-height:15.0pt"><b><span>发件人：</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                                    lang="EN-US">Zafar
                                                    Ali (zali)</span><span
                                                    lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">收件人：</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                                    lang="EN-US">Greg
                                                    Mirsky&lt;<a
                                                      href="mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com"
                                                      target="_blank"
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                                      target="_blank"
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a
href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a
href="mailto:spring@ietf.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><span
                                                    lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">主</span></b><b><span>题：</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                                    lang="EN-US">Re:
                                                    [mpls] [spring]
                                                    Special purpose
                                                    labels in
                                                    draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                                                    lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="line-height:15.0pt"><b><span>时间：</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                                    lang="EN-US">2017-11-16
                                                    02:24:10</span><span
                                                    lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                              </div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="line-height:15.0pt"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt" lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                        lang="EN-US">Hi,
                                                      </span></p>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                        lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                        lang="EN-US">This
                                                        draft breaks the
                                                        SR architecture.
                                                        I am quoting a
                                                        snippet from
                                                        abstract of SR
                                                        Architecture
                                                        document <a
                                                          href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13</a>,
                                                        which states:</span></p>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                        lang="EN-US">“SR
                                                        allows to
                                                        enforce a flow
                                                        through any
                                                        topological path
                                                        while
                                                        maintaining
                                                        per-flow state
                                                        only at the
                                                        ingress nodes to
                                                        the SR domain.”
                                                      </span></p>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                        lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                        lang="EN-US">In
                                                        addition to
                                                        creating states
                                                        at transit and
                                                        egress nodes,
                                                        the procedure
                                                        also affects the
                                                        data plane and
                                                        makes it
                                                        unscalable. It
                                                        also makes
                                                        controller job
                                                        much harder and
                                                        error prune. In
                                                        summary, I find
                                                        the procedure
                                                        very complex and
                                                        unscalable. </span></p>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                        lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <p
                                                        class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          lang="EN-US">Thanks</span></p>
                                                      <p
                                                        class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                                                      <p
                                                        class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          lang="EN-US">Regards
                                                          … Zafar </span></p>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                        lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                        lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                                                    <div
                                                      style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                                      #b5c4df
                                                      1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
                                                      0cm 0cm 0cm">
                                                      <p
                                                        class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="color:black" lang="EN-US">From: </span></b><span
                                                          style="color:black"
                                                          lang="EN-US">spring
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                                                          on behalf of
                                                          Greg Mirsky
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Date: </b>Wednesday,
                                                          November 15,
                                                          2017 at 11:10
                                                          AM<br>
                                                          <b>To: </b>"<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>"
                                                          &lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
                                                          "<a
                                                          href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, "<a
                                                          href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Subject: </b>[spring]
                                                          Special
                                                          purpose labels
                                                          in
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                                                          lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <p
                                                        class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <p
                                                        class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          lang="EN-US">Hi </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">Shraddha,</span><span
                                                          lang="EN-US">
                                                        </span></p>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">thank you for very
                                                          well written
                                                          and thought
                                                          through draft.
                                                          I have these
                                                          questions I'd
                                                          like to
                                                          discuss:</span><span
                                                          lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <ul type="disc">
                                                          <li
                                                          class="MsoNormal">
                                                          <span
                                                          lang="EN-US">Have
                                                          you thought of
                                                          using not one
                                                          special
                                                          purpose label
                                                          for both SR
                                                          Path
                                                          Identifier and
                                                          SR Path
                                                          Identifier+Source
                                                          SID cases but
                                                          request two
                                                          special
                                                          purpose
                                                          labels, one
                                                          for each case.
                                                          Then the SR
                                                          Path
                                                          Identifier
                                                          would not have
                                                          to lose the
                                                          bit for C
                                                          flag.</span></li>
                                                          <li
                                                          class="MsoNormal">
                                                          <span
                                                          lang="EN-US">And
                                                          how you
                                                          envision to
                                                          collect the
                                                          counters along
                                                          the path? Of
                                                          course, a
                                                          Controller may
                                                          query LSR for
                                                          all counters
                                                          or counters
                                                          for the
                                                          particular
                                                          flow (SR Path
Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd propose to use in-band
                                                          mechanism,
                                                          perhaps
                                                          another
                                                          special
                                                          purpose label,
                                                          to trigger the
                                                          LSR to send
                                                          counters of
                                                          the same flow
                                                          with the
                                                          timestamp
                                                          out-band to
                                                          the predefined
                                                          Collector.</span></li>
                                                          <li
                                                          class="MsoNormal">
                                                          <span
                                                          lang="EN-US">And
                                                          the last, have
                                                          you considered
                                                          ability to
                                                          flush counters
                                                          per flow. In
                                                          Scalability
                                                          Considerations
                                                          you've stated
                                                          that counters
                                                          are maintained
                                                          as long as
                                                          collection of
                                                          statistics is
                                                          enabled. If
                                                          that is on the
                                                          node scope,
                                                          you may have
                                                          to turn off/on
                                                          the collection
                                                          to flush off
                                                          some old
                                                          counters. I
                                                          think that
                                                          finer
                                                          granularity,
                                                          per flow
                                                          granularity
                                                          would be
                                                          useful for
                                                          operators.
                                                          Again, perhaps
                                                          the flow
                                                          itself may be
                                                          used to signal
                                                          the end of the
                                                          measurement
                                                          and trigger
                                                          release of
                                                          counters.</span></li>
                                                        </ul>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          lang="EN-US">Regards,</span></p>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          lang="EN-US">Greg</span></p>
                                                      </div>
                                                    </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </blockquote>
                                      </div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                          lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
                                    ______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_______________<br>
                                    <br>
                                    This e-mail message is intended for
                                    the recipient only and contains
                                    information which is <br>
                                    CONFIDENTIAL and which may be
                                    proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you
                                    have received this <br>
                                    transmission in error, please inform
                                    us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
                                    delete the original <br>
                                    and all copies thereof.<br>
                                    ______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_______________</span></p>
                              </div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                                  lang="EN-US"><br>
                                  ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
                                  mpls mailing list<br>
                                  <a href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
                                  <a
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                            </div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <pre><span lang="EN-US">______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_</span></pre>
                      <pre><span lang="EN-US"> </span></pre>
                      <pre><span lang="EN-US">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc</span></pre>
                      <pre><span lang="EN-US">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler</span></pre>
                      <pre><span lang="EN-US">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,</span></pre>
                      <pre><span lang="EN-US">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.</span></pre>
                      <pre><span lang="EN-US"> </span></pre>
                      <pre><span lang="EN-US">This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;</span></pre>
                      <pre><span lang="EN-US">they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.</span></pre>
                      <pre><span lang="EN-US">If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.</span></pre>
                      <pre><span lang="EN-US">As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.</span></pre>
                      <pre><span lang="EN-US">Thank you.</span></pre>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <br>
                  <fieldset
                    class="m_8539926704528025668mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
                  <br>
                  <pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
mpls mailing list
<a class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>
<a class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a>
</pre>
                </blockquote>
                <br>
              </div>
            </div>
            <br>
            ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
            mpls mailing list<br>
            <a href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
            <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls"
              rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><br>
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          </blockquote>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
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--------------E51591B1EFE3F13C9EEE8B25--


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From: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>, "Ext - Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
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Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 04:35:36 +0100
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To: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Resending ..


Folks,

LDP LSPs follow pure dst based IGP SPT. So for each ip dst the path packet
takes is well known.

What is there to record at each transit router hop other then what you
already have today from basic netflow counters ?

Thx
R.







On Nov 17, 2017 04:18, "Mach Chen" <mach.chen@huawei.com> wrote:

> Hi Stewart,
>
>
>
> Indeed, the same idea can apply to both MPLS-SR and MPLS-LDP. For now, th=
e
> requirements that I heard are from MPLS-SR.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
>
>
> *From:* Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, November 17, 2017 10:45 AM
> *To:* Mach Chen; stephane.litkowski@orange.com; Robert Raszuk; Alexander
> Vainshtein
> *Cc:* mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-account=
ing-for-sr-paths;
> Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali
> (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
>
> I would like to ask a fundamental question here.
>
> Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for
> MPLS-LDP as well?
>
> If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a general
> MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.
>
> At least some of the methods described here would work for both.
>
> Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are used,
> that only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot which I understa=
nd
> to be the original goal.
>
> - Stewart
>
> On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen wrote:
>
> Hi Stephane,
>
>
>
> If you want to do transit measurement, you have to pay some cost. The
> difference is how large the cost is, one, two or multiple labels.
>
>
>
> For E2E measurement, it could be much easier. A single label (could be
> local or global) is inserted immediately follow the last label of the SR
> path. Since there is only one label, the path label could be put into the
> stack at the beginning, no matter whether the measurement is enable or no=
t.
> With this, it will not affect the entropy.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *stephane.litkowski@orange.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM
> *To:* Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-account=
ing-for-sr-paths;
> Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali
> (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Yes today we do not have any CLI command on any router to get paths
> statistics for LDP (I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P LSP=
s,
> so a transit node does not have the knowledge of the source. From an
> operational point of  view, what we do today is that we collect netflow
> statistics on core routers, we project the label stack onto the routing
> with an external tool to get the Ingress to Egress LDP traffic including
> the mapping of the flows on the links.
>
>
>
> Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as the LSP is P2P and has states
> on every node.
>
>
>
> Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS dataplane) ha=
s
> limited TE features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE without
> adding too much complexity).
>
>
>
> Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats) worth to be solved ? If yes,
> where do we accept to put the complexity ? For a stats issue I would rath=
er
> prefer to move the complexity to an external tool that can do correlation=
s
> or whatever operations rather than getting it in the forwarding plane=E2=
=80=A6
>
> IMO, that=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cnice to have=E2=80=9D problem to solve get=
ting that we do not have
> this for LDP and we know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.
>
> However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for sure mandatory to get !
>
>
>
> The main drawback I see with the proposed solution is that it mimics what
> Entropy label does with a solution which is similar and at the same time
> cannot replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far from being
> sufficient (this is not the goal I know, but I was looking for potential
> use case optimizations). So in a network running entropy label and this
> mechanism, a router will need to find the ELI/EL and hash, then find
> another special label to build the stats (maybe tomorrow there will be a
> third one to look at and a fourth one=E2=80=A6). That starts to be a big =
overhead
> for the forwarding plane.
>
>
>
> Brgds,
>
>
>
> Stephane
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky;
> draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accoun=
ting-for-sr-paths;
> Zafar Ali (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Folks,
>
>
>
> This thread started and the requirements reported clearly stated that all
> what we need is the ability to account per path traffic on egress nodes.
>
>
>
> Now out of the sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to measure
> per path in transit nodes.
>
>
>
> Well you can do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or you can do
> it with RSVP-TE.
>
>
>
> SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But SR-MPLS
> never intended to become connection oriented protocol nor architecture.
>
>
>
> So I recommend we take a step back here. Or if you like first go and fix
> basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to end path accounting in transit
> nodes then come back here to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not the other w=
ay
> around.
>
>
>
> Thx
>
> r.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein" <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abili=
ty to
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
> require OAM function for SR.
>
>
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_=
text=3D1>
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
> implementation report
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-rep=
ort-00>
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in any
> case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
> two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.
>
>
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc
> ounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-
> for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose label=
s in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr
> aft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
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<div dir=3D"auto"><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
" dir=3D"auto">Resending ..=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"au=
to"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br type=3D"attribution"><blockquo=
te class=3D"quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">Folks,<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div di=
r=3D"auto">LDP LSPs follow pure dst based IGP SPT. So for each ip dst the p=
ath packet takes is well known.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto">What is there to record at each transit router hop other then wha=
t you already have today from basic netflow counters ?</div><div dir=3D"aut=
o"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Thx</div><font color=3D"#888888"><div dir=3D=
"auto">R.</div></font></div><div class=3D"elided-text"><div class=3D"gmail_=
extra"></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto=
"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gma=
il_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D=
"elided-text"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On =
Nov 17, 2017 04:18, &quot;Mach Chen&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mach.chen@h=
uawei.com" target=3D"_blank">mach.chen@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D=
"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-1800065505843521187m_-4059884648803605259WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Hi Stewart=
,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Indeed, th=
e same idea can apply to both MPLS-SR and MPLS-LDP. For now, the requiremen=
ts that I heard are from MPLS-SR.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Best regar=
ds,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Mach<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> Stewart Bryant [mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">stewart.b=
ryant@gmail.c<wbr>om</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 17, 2017 10:45 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mach Chen; <a href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a>; Robert Raszuk; Alexander V=
ainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<=
wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths; Michael Gorokhovsky; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf=
-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-oam-useca=
se@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
I would like to ask a fundamental question here.<br>
<br>
Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for MPLS-LDP=
 as well?<br>
<br>
If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a general M=
PLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.<br>
<br>
At least some of the methods described here would work for both.<br>
<br>
Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are used, th=
at only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot which I understand t=
o be the original goal.
<br>
<br>
- Stewart<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen =
wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Hi Stephan=
e,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">If you wan=
t to do transit measurement, you have to pay some cost. The difference is h=
ow large the cost is, one, two or multiple labels.</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">For E2E me=
asurement, it could be much easier. A single label (could be local or globa=
l) is inserted immediately follow the last label of the SR
 path. Since there is only one label, the path label could be put into the =
stack at the beginning, no matter whether the measurement is enable or not.=
 With this, it will not affect the entropy.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Best regar=
ds,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Mach</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com" target=
=3D"_blank">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<=
wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths; Michael Gorokhovsky;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Hi,</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Yes today =
we do not have any CLI command on any router to get paths statistics for LD=
P (I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P LSPs,
 so a transit node does not have the knowledge of the source. From an opera=
tional point of=C2=A0 view, what we do today is that we collect netflow sta=
tistics on core routers, we project the label stack onto the routing with a=
n external tool to get the Ingress to
 Egress LDP traffic including the mapping of the flows on the links.</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Now for RS=
VP, we do have such statistics as the LSP is P2P and has states on every no=
de.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Robert men=
tioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS dataplane) has limited TE=
 features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE without
 adding too much complexity).</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Thus, is i=
t a problem (transit node stats) worth to be solved ? If yes, where do we a=
ccept to put the complexity ? For a stats issue I would rather
 prefer to move the complexity to an external tool that can do correlations=
 or whatever operations rather than getting it in the forwarding plane=E2=
=80=A6</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">IMO, that=
=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cnice to have=E2=80=9D problem to solve getting that w=
e do not have this for LDP and we know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">However, I=
ngress stats per SRTE LSP are for sure mandatory to get !
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">The main d=
rawback I see with the proposed solution is that it mimics what Entropy lab=
el does with a solution which is similar and at the same time
 cannot replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far from being suf=
ficient (this is not the goal I know, but I was looking for potential use c=
ase optimizations). So in a network running entropy label and this mechanis=
m, a router will need to find the
 ELI/EL and hash, then find another special label to build the stats (maybe=
 tomorrow there will be a third one to look at and a fourth one=E2=80=A6). =
That starts to be a big overhead for the forwarding plane.
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Brgds,</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Stephane</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky; <a href=3D=
"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; draft-hegde-spring-traffic=
-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Folks,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This thread started and the req=
uirements reported clearly stated that all what we need is the ability to a=
ccount per path traffic on egress nodes.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Now out of the sudden I see req=
uirement popping up to be able to measure per path in transit nodes.<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Well you can do it today with S=
Rv6 if your hardware allows or you can do it with RSVP-TE.<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and ad=
ds ability for limited TE. But SR-MPLS never intended to become connection =
oriented protocol nor architecture.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">So I recommend we take a step b=
ack here. Or if you like first go and fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per =
end to end path accounting in transit nodes then come back here to ask for =
the same in SR-MPLS. Not the other way
 around.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thx<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">r.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, &quot;Al=
exander Vainshtein&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele=
.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Greg,</spa=
n><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">I concur w=
ith your position: let=E2=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that ability to m=
easure traffic
 carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require OAM functi=
on for SR.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">I have loo=
ked up the
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?=
include_text=3D1" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there=
. </span>
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">The only t=
ime measurements are mentioned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementa=
tion-report-00" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.=C2=
=A0 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevan=
t, IMHO, for this discussion.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">I have add=
ed the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Regards,</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Sasha</spa=
n><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.c<wbr>om</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&=
quot;sans-serif&quot;">
 mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mp=
ls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>counting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.org</a><wbr>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">z=
ali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Dear All,<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I cannot imagine that operators=
 will agree to deploy network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor perf=
ormance and troubleshoot the network. True, some will
 brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even they will likely re=
quest that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their operational needs=
. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and why ability to qua=
ntify the flow behavior at internal
 nodes is important for efficient network operation. First let&#39;s discus=
s whether the case and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we c=
an continue to discussion of what measurement method to use.<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Greg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 A=
M, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xu=
xiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
Concur. Although it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my po=
int of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence =
we would have to make
 some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> Xuxiaohu<br>
M</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-1=
3910161692</a>
<br>
E</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank=
">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=
=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">-</sp=
an><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=BD=91</span><span =
style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=
=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E5=8F=
=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt=
">
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E6=
=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.=
5pt">
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail=
.com</a>&gt;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-heg<wbr>de-spring-traffic-accounting-<wbr>for=
-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">mp<wbr>ls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@<wbr>ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E4=
=B8=BB</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt"=
>
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spri=
ng] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-fo=
r-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E6=97=
=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24=
:10</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This draft breaks the SR archit=
ecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr<wbr>aft-ietf-spring-segment-routin<wbr>g-13<=
/a>, which states:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a=
 flow through any topological path while maintaining per-flow state only at=
 the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">In addition to creating states =
at transit and egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and =
makes it unscalable. It also makes controller job much
 harder and error prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex and =
unscalable.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of G=
reg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">g=
regimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>co=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>counting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Shraddha,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">than=
k you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questio=
ns I&#39;d like to discuss:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Have you thought of using not one special purpose labe=
l for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but r=
equest two special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Iden=
tifier would not have to lose the
 bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">And how you envision to collect the counters along the=
 path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters f=
or the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#=
39;d propose to use in-band mechanism,
 perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters=
 of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<=
u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">And the last, have you considered ability to flush cou=
nters per flow. In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counte=
rs are maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that i=
s on the node scope, you may have to turn
 off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I think that finer g=
ranularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again, perh=
aps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement and tr=
igger release of counters.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Greg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is
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CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
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transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original
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______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" target=3D"_blank">ht=
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</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">______________________________<wbr>______________=
________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>___________________=
___________<wbr>_<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir=
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<u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autor=
isation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<u></=
u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">a l&#39;expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les p=
ieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d&#39;alterati=
on,<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message=
 a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">This message and its attachments may contain conf=
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</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">______________________________<wbr>______________=
___<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">mpls mailing list<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">mpls@ietf.org</a><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/=
mpls" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/mpls</a>=
<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

--94eb2c1b4fe81e00fd055e256e4e--


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To: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Cc: mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
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From: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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I would like to ask a fundamental question here.

Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for 
MPLS-LDP as well?

If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a 
general MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.

At least some of the methods described here would work for both.

Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are used, 
that only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot which I 
understand to be the original goal.

- Stewart

On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen wrote:
>
> Hi Stephane,
>
> If you want to do transit measurement, you have to pay some cost. The 
> difference is how large the cost is, one, two or multiple labels.
>
> For E2E measurement, it could be much easier. A single label (could be 
> local or global) is inserted immediately follow the last label of the 
> SR path. Since there is only one label, the path label could be put 
> into the stack at the beginning, no matter whether the measurement is 
> enable or not. With this, it will not affect the entropy.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
> *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of 
> *stephane.litkowski@orange.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM
> *To:* Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; Michael 
> Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> Hi,
>
> Yes today we do not have any CLI command on any router to get paths 
> statistics for LDP (I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P 
> LSPs, so a transit node does not have the knowledge of the source. 
> From an operational point of  view, what we do today is that we 
> collect netflow statistics on core routers, we project the label stack 
> onto the routing with an external tool to get the Ingress to Egress 
> LDP traffic including the mapping of the flows on the links.
>
> Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as the LSP is P2P and has 
> states on every node.
>
> Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS dataplane) 
> has limited TE features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE 
> without adding too much complexity).
>
> Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats) worth to be solved ? If 
> yes, where do we accept to put the complexity ? For a stats issue I 
> would rather prefer to move the complexity to an external tool that 
> can do correlations or whatever operations rather than getting it in 
> the forwarding plane…
>
> IMO, that’s a “nice to have” problem to solve getting that we do not 
> have this for LDP and we know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.
>
> However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for sure mandatory to get !
>
> The main drawback I see with the proposed solution is that it mimics 
> what Entropy label does with a solution which is similar and at the 
> same time cannot replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far 
> from being sufficient (this is not the goal I know, but I was looking 
> for potential use case optimizations). So in a network running entropy 
> label and this mechanism, a router will need to find the ELI/EL and 
> hash, then find another special label to build the stats (maybe 
> tomorrow there will be a third one to look at and a fourth one…). That 
> starts to be a big overhead for the forwarding plane.
>
> Brgds,
>
> Stephane
>
> *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky; 
> draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org 
> <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>; 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; Zafar Ali (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> Folks,
>
> This thread started and the requirements reported clearly stated that 
> all what we need is the ability to account per path traffic on egress 
> nodes.
>
> Now out of the sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to 
> measure per path in transit nodes.
>
> Well you can do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or you can 
> do it with RSVP-TE.
>
> SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But SR-MPLS 
> never intended to become connection oriented protocol nor architecture.
>
> So I recommend we take a step back here. Or if you like first go and 
> fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to end path accounting in 
> transit nodes then come back here to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not 
> the other way around.
>
> Thx
>
> r.
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein" 
> <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com 
> <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let’s first  of all agree that ability to 
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is 
> a require OAM function for SR.
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_text=1> 
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired 
> implementation report 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-report-00> 
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in 
> any case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end 
> (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this 
> discussion.
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <tel:+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell: +972-549266302 <tel:+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email: Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com 
> <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
>
> *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org 
> <mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths 
> <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org 
> <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>; 
> spring <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>; Zafar Ali (zali) 
> <zali@cisco.com <mailto:zali@cisco.com>>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org 
> <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that 
> lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the 
> network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters 
> but even they will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient 
> to support their operational needs. I see that this work clearly 
> describes the problem and why ability to quantify the flow behavior at 
> internal nodes is important for efficient network operation. First 
> let's discuss whether the case and requirement towards OAM is real and 
> valid. Then we can continue to discussion of what measurement method 
> to use.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com 
> <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>> wrote:
>
>     Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from
>     my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority
>     object. Hence we would have to make some compromise.
>
>     Best regards,
>     Xiaohu
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     徐小虎Xuxiaohu
>     M：+86-13910161692 <tel:+86-13910161692>
>     E：xuxiaohu@huawei.com <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
>     产品与解决方案-网络战略与业务发展部
>     Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
>     *发件人：***Zafar Ali (zali)
>
>     *收件人：***Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com
>     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org
>     <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>;spring<spring@ietf.org
>     <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>
>
>     *主**题：***Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>     *时间：***2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>     Hi,
>
>     This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
>     abstract of SR Architecture document
>     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13,
>     which states:
>
>     “SR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
>     maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR
>     domain.”
>
>     In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the
>     procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It
>     also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary,
>     I find the procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>     Thanks
>
>     Regards … Zafar
>
>     *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org
>     <mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Greg Mirsky
>     <gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>
>     *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
>     *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>"
>     <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>,
>     "mpls@ietf.org <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>" <mpls@ietf.org
>     <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>, "spring@ietf.org
>     <mailto:spring@ietf.org>" <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>
>     *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>     Hi Shraddha,
>
>     thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have
>     these questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>       * Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for
>         both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID
>         cases but request two special purpose labels, one for each
>         case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have to lose the
>         bit for C flag.
>       * And how you envision to collect the counters along the path?
>         Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or
>         counters for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source
>         SID). But in addition I'd propose to use in-band mechanism,
>         perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to
>         send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to
>         the predefined Collector.
>       * And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters
>         per flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that
>         counters are maintained as long as collection of statistics is
>         enabled. If that is on the node scope, you may have to turn
>         off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I think
>         that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful
>         for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to
>         signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Greg
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________
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    <br>
    I would like to ask a fundamental question here.<br>
    <br>
    Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for
    MPLS-LDP as well?<br>
    <br>
    If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a
    general MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.<br>
    <br>
    At least some of the methods described here would work for both.<br>
    <br>
    Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are
    used, that only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot which
    I understand to be the original goal. <br>
    <br>
    - Stewart<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Hi Stephane,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">If you want to do transit measurement, you have
            to pay some cost. The difference is how large the cost is,
            one, two or multiple labels.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">For E2E measurement, it could be much easier. A
            single label (could be local or global) is inserted
            immediately follow the last label of the SR path. Since
            there is only one label, the path label could be put into
            the stack at the beginning, no matter whether the
            measurement is enable or not. With this, it will not affect
            the entropy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Mach<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm
          0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                    lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="EN-US"> mpls [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                  <b>On Behalf Of </b><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a><br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein<br>
                  <b>Cc:</b> mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils;
                  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths;
                  Michael Gorokhovsky;
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali
                  (zali)<br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose
                  labels in
                  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Yes today we do not have any CLI command on
              any router to get paths statistics for LDP (I mean Ingress
              to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P LSPs, so a transit node
              does not have the knowledge of the source. From an
              operational point of  view, what we do today is that we
              collect netflow statistics on core routers, we project the
              label stack onto the routing with an external tool to get
              the Ingress to Egress LDP traffic including the mapping of
              the flows on the links.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as
              the LSP is P2P and has states on every node.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE
              (especially with MPLS dataplane) has limited TE features
              (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE without adding
              too much complexity).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats)
              worth to be solved ? If yes, where do we accept to put the
              complexity ? For a stats issue I would rather prefer to
              move the complexity to an external tool that can do
              correlations or whatever operations rather than getting it
              in the forwarding plane…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">IMO, that’s a “nice to have” problem to solve
              getting that we do not have this for LDP and we know the
              limitations of SR-TE MPLS.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for
              sure mandatory to get !
              <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">The main drawback I see with the proposed
              solution is that it mimics what Entropy label does with a
              solution which is similar and at the same time cannot
              replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far from
              being sufficient (this is not the goal I know, but I was
              looking for potential use case optimizations). So in a
              network running entropy label and this mechanism, a router
              will need to find the ELI/EL and hash, then find another
              special label to build the stats (maybe tomorrow there
              will be a third one to look at and a fourth one…). That
              starts to be a big overhead for the forwarding plane.
              <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Brgds,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Stephane<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
              lang="EN-US"> mpls [<a href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
              <b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
              <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23<br>
              <b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
              <b>Cc:</b> spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael
              Gorokhovsky; <a
                href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org"
                moz-do-not-send="true">
                draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org</a>;
              draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; Zafar
              Ali (zali)<br>
              <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels
              in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Folks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">This thread
                    started and the requirements reported clearly stated
                    that all what we need is the ability to account per
                    path traffic on egress nodes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Now out of the
                    sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to
                    measure per path in transit nodes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Well you can do
                    it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or you
                    can do it with RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">SR-MPLS is
                    replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But
                    SR-MPLS never intended to become connection oriented
                    protocol nor architecture.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">So I recommend
                    we take a step back here. Or if you like first go
                    and fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to end
                    path accounting in transit nodes then come back here
                    to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not the other way
                    around.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thx<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">r.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On Nov 16,
                      2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein" &lt;<a
                        href="mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;
                      wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US">Greg,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US">I concur with your position:
                          let’s first  of all agree that ability to
                          measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a
                          specific transit node is a require OAM
                          function for SR.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US">I have looked up the
                          <a
href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_text=1"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
                            SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not
                          find any relevant use cases there. </span>
                        <span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US">The only time measurements are
                          mentioned is a reference to an
                          <a
href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-report-00"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
                            expired implementation report</a> draft
                          discussing delay measurements.  Since delay
                          measurements are in any case based on
                          synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end
                          (one-way or two-way), this reference is not
                          relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.</span><span
                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US">I have added the authors of the
                          SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><span
                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US">Regards,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US">Sasha</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US">Office:
                          <a href="tel:+972%203-926-6302"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+972-39266302</a></span><span
                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US">Cell:     
                          <a href="tel:+972%2054-926-6302"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+972-549266302</a></span><span
                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US">Email:  
                          <a
                            href="mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a></span><span
                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                            lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                          lang="EN-US"> mpls [mailto:<a
                            href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                          <b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
                          <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28
                          AM<br>
                          <b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a
                            href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
                          <b>Cc:</b>
                          draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
                          &lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
                          spring &lt;<a href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
                          Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a
                            href="mailto:zali@cisco.com" target="_blank"
                            moz-do-not-send="true">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;
                          mpls &lt;<a href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                          <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special
                          purpose labels in
                          draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                            lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                              lang="EN-US">Dear All,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                lang="EN-US">I cannot imagine that
                                operators will agree to deploy network
                                that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor
                                performance and troubleshoot the
                                network. True, some will brave the
                                challenge and be the early adopters but
                                even they will likely request that the
                                OAM toolbox be sufficient to support
                                their operational needs. I see that this
                                work clearly describes the problem and
                                why ability to quantify the flow
                                behavior at internal nodes is important
                                for efficient network operation. First
                                let's discuss whether the case and
                                requirement towards OAM is real and
                                valid. Then we can continue to
                                discussion of what measurement method to
                                use.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                lang="EN-US">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                lang="EN-US">Greg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                lang="EN-US">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at
                                10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a
                                  href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;
                                wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            <blockquote
                              style="border:none;border-left:solid
                              #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                    style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                                      lang="EN-US">Concur. Although it
                                      has some values, it's not
                                      cost-efficient from my point of
                                      view. Network simplicity should be
                                      the first priority object. Hence
                                      we would have to make some
                                      compromise.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Best regards,<br>
                                      Xiaohu <br>
                                      <br>
                                      <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                  <div class="MsoNormal"
                                    style="text-align:center"
                                    align="center"><span lang="EN-US">
                                      <hr size="2" align="center"
                                        width="100%">
                                    </span></div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                    style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                                      style="font-family:&quot;MS
                                      Gothic&quot;">徐小虎</span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"> Xuxiaohu<br>
                                      M</span><span
                                      style="font-family:&quot;MS
                                      Gothic&quot;">：</span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"><a
                                        href="tel:+86-13910161692"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">+86-13910161692</a>
                                      <br>
                                      E</span><span
                                      style="font-family:&quot;MS
                                      Gothic&quot;">：</span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"><a
                                        href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
                                    </span><span
                                      style="font-family:&quot;Microsoft
JhengHei&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">产品与解决方案</span><span lang="EN-US">-</span><span
                                      style="font-family:&quot;MS
                                      Gothic&quot;">网</span><span
                                      style="font-family:&quot;Microsoft
JhengHei&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">络战略与业务发展部</span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"><br>
                                      Products &amp; Solutions-Network
                                      Strategy &amp; Business
                                      Development Dept<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                </div>
                                <div style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                  #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0cm 0cm
                                  0cm" name="AnyOffice-Background-Image">
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft
                                          JhengHei&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">发件人：</span></b><b><span
                                          style="font-size:10.5pt">
                                        </span></b><span
                                        style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                        lang="EN-US">Zafar Ali (zali)</span><span
                                        lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">收件人：</span></b><b><span
                                          style="font-size:10.5pt">
                                        </span></b><span
                                        style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                        lang="EN-US">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a
                                          href="mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com"
                                          target="_blank"
                                          moz-do-not-send="true">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                          target="_blank"
                                          moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a
                                          href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                                          target="_blank"
                                          moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a
                                          href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
                                          target="_blank"
                                          moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><span
                                        lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">主</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft
                                          JhengHei&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">题：</span></b><b><span
                                          style="font-size:10.5pt">
                                        </span></b><span
                                        style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                        lang="EN-US">Re: [mpls] [spring]
                                        Special purpose labels in
                                        draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                                        lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft
                                          JhengHei&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">时间：</span></b><b><span
                                          style="font-size:10.5pt">
                                        </span></b><span
                                        style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                        lang="EN-US">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span><span
                                        lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><span
                                      style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                      lang="EN-US"> </span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                </div>
                                <div>
                                  <div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                            lang="EN-US">Hi,
                                            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                            lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                            lang="EN-US">This draft
                                            breaks the SR architecture.
                                            I am quoting a snippet from
                                            abstract of SR Architecture
                                            document
                                            <a
                                              href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13"
                                              target="_blank"
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>,
                                            which states:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                            lang="EN-US">“SR allows to
                                            enforce a flow through any
                                            topological path while
                                            maintaining per-flow state
                                            only at the ingress nodes to
                                            the SR domain.”
                                            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                            lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                            lang="EN-US">In addition to
                                            creating states at transit
                                            and egress nodes, the
                                            procedure also affects the
                                            data plane and makes it
                                            unscalable. It also makes
                                            controller job much harder
                                            and error prune. In summary,
                                            I find the procedure very
                                            complex and unscalable.
                                            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                            lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US">Regards …
                                              Zafar
                                              <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                        </div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                            lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                            lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                        <div
                                          style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                          #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
                                          0cm 0cm 0cm">
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
                                                style="color:black"
                                                lang="EN-US">From:
                                              </span></b><span
                                              style="color:black"
                                              lang="EN-US">spring &lt;<a
href="mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank"
                                                moz-do-not-send="true">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                                              on behalf of Greg Mirsky
                                              &lt;<a
                                                href="mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com"
                                                target="_blank"
                                                moz-do-not-send="true">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                              <b>Date: </b>Wednesday,
                                              November 15, 2017 at 11:10
                                              AM<br>
                                              <b>To: </b>"<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                                target="_blank"
                                                moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>"
                                              &lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                                target="_blank"
                                                moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
                                              "<a
                                                href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                                                target="_blank"
                                                moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>"
                                              &lt;<a
                                                href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                                                target="_blank"
                                                moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
                                              "<a
                                                href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
                                                target="_blank"
                                                moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>"
                                              &lt;<a
                                                href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
                                                target="_blank"
                                                moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                                              <b>Subject: </b>[spring]
                                              Special purpose labels in
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                                              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US">Hi </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">Shraddha,</span><span
                                              lang="EN-US">
                                              <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">thank you for very
                                                well written and thought
                                                through draft. I have
                                                these questions I'd like
                                                to discuss:</span><span
                                                lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <ul type="disc">
                                              <li class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
                                                level1 lfo3">
                                                <span lang="EN-US">Have
                                                  you thought of using
                                                  not one special
                                                  purpose label for both
                                                  SR Path Identifier and
                                                  SR Path
                                                  Identifier+Source SID
                                                  cases but request two
                                                  special purpose
                                                  labels, one for each
                                                  case. Then the SR Path
                                                  Identifier would not
                                                  have to lose the bit
                                                  for C flag.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
                                              <li class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
                                                level1 lfo3">
                                                <span lang="EN-US">And
                                                  how you envision to
                                                  collect the counters
                                                  along the path? Of
                                                  course, a Controller
                                                  may query LSR for all
                                                  counters or counters
                                                  for the particular
                                                  flow (SR Path
                                                  Identifier+Source
                                                  SID). But in addition
                                                  I'd propose to use
                                                  in-band mechanism,
                                                  perhaps another
                                                  special purpose label,
                                                  to trigger the LSR to
                                                  send counters of the
                                                  same flow with the
                                                  timestamp out-band to
                                                  the predefined
                                                  Collector.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
                                              <li class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
                                                level1 lfo3">
                                                <span lang="EN-US">And
                                                  the last, have you
                                                  considered ability to
                                                  flush counters per
                                                  flow. In Scalability
                                                  Considerations you've
                                                  stated that counters
                                                  are maintained as long
                                                  as collection of
                                                  statistics is enabled.
                                                  If that is on the node
                                                  scope, you may have to
                                                  turn off/on the
                                                  collection to flush
                                                  off some old counters.
                                                  I think that finer
                                                  granularity, per flow
                                                  granularity would be
                                                  useful for operators.
                                                  Again, perhaps the
                                                  flow itself may be
                                                  used to signal the end
                                                  of the measurement and
                                                  trigger release of
                                                  counters.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
                                            </ul>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                  lang="EN-US">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US">Greg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </blockquote>
                          </div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
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                  </div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                      lang="EN-US"><br>
                      _______________________________________________<br>
                      mpls mailing list<br>
                      <a href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
                      <a
                        href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
          <pre><span lang="EN-US">_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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From: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
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Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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To: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
Cc: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, mpls@ietf.org,  Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>,  Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>,  Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>,  "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>,  "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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--94eb2c1b4fe8ce17d4055e254b32
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Folks,

LDP LSPs follow pure dst based IGP SPT. So for each ip dst the path packet
takes is well known.

What is there to record at each transit router hop other then what you
already have today from basic netflow counters ?

Thx
R.

On Nov 17, 2017 04:18, "Mach Chen" <mach.chen@huawei.com> wrote:

> Hi Stewart,
>
>
>
> Indeed, the same idea can apply to both MPLS-SR and MPLS-LDP. For now, th=
e
> requirements that I heard are from MPLS-SR.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
>
>
> *From:* Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, November 17, 2017 10:45 AM
> *To:* Mach Chen; stephane.litkowski@orange.com; Robert Raszuk; Alexander
> Vainshtein
> *Cc:* mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-account=
ing-for-sr-paths;
> Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali
> (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
>
> I would like to ask a fundamental question here.
>
> Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for
> MPLS-LDP as well?
>
> If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a general
> MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.
>
> At least some of the methods described here would work for both.
>
> Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are used,
> that only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot which I understa=
nd
> to be the original goal.
>
> - Stewart
>
> On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen wrote:
>
> Hi Stephane,
>
>
>
> If you want to do transit measurement, you have to pay some cost. The
> difference is how large the cost is, one, two or multiple labels.
>
>
>
> For E2E measurement, it could be much easier. A single label (could be
> local or global) is inserted immediately follow the last label of the SR
> path. Since there is only one label, the path label could be put into the
> stack at the beginning, no matter whether the measurement is enable or no=
t.
> With this, it will not affect the entropy.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *stephane.litkowski@orange.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM
> *To:* Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-account=
ing-for-sr-paths;
> Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali
> (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Yes today we do not have any CLI command on any router to get paths
> statistics for LDP (I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P LSP=
s,
> so a transit node does not have the knowledge of the source. From an
> operational point of  view, what we do today is that we collect netflow
> statistics on core routers, we project the label stack onto the routing
> with an external tool to get the Ingress to Egress LDP traffic including
> the mapping of the flows on the links.
>
>
>
> Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as the LSP is P2P and has states
> on every node.
>
>
>
> Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS dataplane) ha=
s
> limited TE features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE without
> adding too much complexity).
>
>
>
> Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats) worth to be solved ? If yes,
> where do we accept to put the complexity ? For a stats issue I would rath=
er
> prefer to move the complexity to an external tool that can do correlation=
s
> or whatever operations rather than getting it in the forwarding plane=E2=
=80=A6
>
> IMO, that=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cnice to have=E2=80=9D problem to solve get=
ting that we do not have
> this for LDP and we know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.
>
> However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for sure mandatory to get !
>
>
>
> The main drawback I see with the proposed solution is that it mimics what
> Entropy label does with a solution which is similar and at the same time
> cannot replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far from being
> sufficient (this is not the goal I know, but I was looking for potential
> use case optimizations). So in a network running entropy label and this
> mechanism, a router will need to find the ELI/EL and hash, then find
> another special label to build the stats (maybe tomorrow there will be a
> third one to look at and a fourth one=E2=80=A6). That starts to be a big =
overhead
> for the forwarding plane.
>
>
>
> Brgds,
>
>
>
> Stephane
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky;
> draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accoun=
ting-for-sr-paths;
> Zafar Ali (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Folks,
>
>
>
> This thread started and the requirements reported clearly stated that all
> what we need is the ability to account per path traffic on egress nodes.
>
>
>
> Now out of the sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to measure
> per path in transit nodes.
>
>
>
> Well you can do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or you can do
> it with RSVP-TE.
>
>
>
> SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But SR-MPLS
> never intended to become connection oriented protocol nor architecture.
>
>
>
> So I recommend we take a step back here. Or if you like first go and fix
> basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to end path accounting in transit
> nodes then come back here to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not the other w=
ay
> around.
>
>
>
> Thx
>
> r.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein" <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abili=
ty to
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
> require OAM function for SR.
>
>
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_=
text=3D1>
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
> implementation report
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-rep=
ort-00>
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in any
> case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
> two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.
>
>
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose label=
s in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
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> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
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>
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>
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>
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>

--94eb2c1b4fe8ce17d4055e254b32
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">Folks,<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">LDP L=
SPs follow pure dst based IGP SPT. So for each ip dst the path packet takes=
 is well known.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">What is =
there to record at each transit router hop other then what you already have=
 today from basic netflow counters ?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div =
dir=3D"auto">Thx</div><div dir=3D"auto">R.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_e=
xtra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 17, 2017 04:18, &quot;Mach Chen=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mach.chen@huawei.com">mach.chen@huawei.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-4059884648803605259WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Hi Stewart=
,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Indeed, th=
e same idea can apply to both MPLS-SR and MPLS-LDP. For now, the requiremen=
ts that I heard are from MPLS-SR.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Best regar=
ds,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Mach<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> Stewart Bryant [mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">stewart.b=
ryant@gmail.<wbr>com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 17, 2017 10:45 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mach Chen; <a href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a>; Robert Raszuk; Alexander V=
ainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr=
>accounting-for-sr-paths; Michael Gorokhovsky; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf=
-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-oam-useca=
se@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
I would like to ask a fundamental question here.<br>
<br>
Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for MPLS-LDP=
 as well?<br>
<br>
If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a general M=
PLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.<br>
<br>
At least some of the methods described here would work for both.<br>
<br>
Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are used, th=
at only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot which I understand t=
o be the original goal.
<br>
<br>
- Stewart<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen =
wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Hi Stephan=
e,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">If you wan=
t to do transit measurement, you have to pay some cost. The difference is h=
ow large the cost is, one, two or multiple labels.</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">For E2E me=
asurement, it could be much easier. A single label (could be local or globa=
l) is inserted immediately follow the last label of the SR
 path. Since there is only one label, the path label could be put into the =
stack at the beginning, no matter whether the measurement is enable or not.=
 With this, it will not affect the entropy.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Best regar=
ds,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Mach</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com" target=
=3D"_blank">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr=
>accounting-for-sr-paths; Michael Gorokhovsky;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Hi,</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Yes today =
we do not have any CLI command on any router to get paths statistics for LD=
P (I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P LSPs,
 so a transit node does not have the knowledge of the source. From an opera=
tional point of=C2=A0 view, what we do today is that we collect netflow sta=
tistics on core routers, we project the label stack onto the routing with a=
n external tool to get the Ingress to
 Egress LDP traffic including the mapping of the flows on the links.</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Now for RS=
VP, we do have such statistics as the LSP is P2P and has states on every no=
de.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Robert men=
tioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS dataplane) has limited TE=
 features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE without
 adding too much complexity).</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Thus, is i=
t a problem (transit node stats) worth to be solved ? If yes, where do we a=
ccept to put the complexity ? For a stats issue I would rather
 prefer to move the complexity to an external tool that can do correlations=
 or whatever operations rather than getting it in the forwarding plane=E2=
=80=A6</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">IMO, that=
=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cnice to have=E2=80=9D problem to solve getting that w=
e do not have this for LDP and we know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">However, I=
ngress stats per SRTE LSP are for sure mandatory to get !
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">The main d=
rawback I see with the proposed solution is that it mimics what Entropy lab=
el does with a solution which is similar and at the same time
 cannot replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far from being suf=
ficient (this is not the goal I know, but I was looking for potential use c=
ase optimizations). So in a network running entropy label and this mechanis=
m, a router will need to find the
 ELI/EL and hash, then find another special label to build the stats (maybe=
 tomorrow there will be a third one to look at and a fourth one=E2=80=A6). =
That starts to be a big overhead for the forwarding plane.
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Brgds,</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Stephane</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky; <a href=3D=
"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; draft-hegde-spring-traffic=
-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Folks,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This thread started and the req=
uirements reported clearly stated that all what we need is the ability to a=
ccount per path traffic on egress nodes.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Now out of the sudden I see req=
uirement popping up to be able to measure per path in transit nodes.<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Well you can do it today with S=
Rv6 if your hardware allows or you can do it with RSVP-TE.<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and ad=
ds ability for limited TE. But SR-MPLS never intended to become connection =
oriented protocol nor architecture.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">So I recommend we take a step b=
ack here. Or if you like first go and fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per =
end to end path accounting in transit nodes then come back here to ask for =
the same in SR-MPLS. Not the other way
 around.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thx<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">r.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, &quot;Al=
exander Vainshtein&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele=
.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Greg,</spa=
n><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">I concur w=
ith your position: let=E2=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that ability to m=
easure traffic
 carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require OAM functi=
on for SR.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">I have loo=
ked up the
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?=
include_text=3D1" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there=
. </span>
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">The only t=
ime measurements are mentioned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementa=
tion-report-00" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.=C2=
=A0 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevan=
t, IMHO, for this discussion.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">I have add=
ed the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Regards,</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Sasha</spa=
n><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&=
quot;sans-serif&quot;">
 mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mp=
ls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">z=
ali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Dear All,<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I cannot imagine that operators=
 will agree to deploy network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor perf=
ormance and troubleshoot the network. True, some will
 brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even they will likely re=
quest that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their operational needs=
. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and why ability to qua=
ntify the flow behavior at internal
 nodes is important for efficient network operation. First let&#39;s discus=
s whether the case and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we c=
an continue to discussion of what measurement method to use.<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Greg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 A=
M, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xu=
xiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
Concur. Although it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my po=
int of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence =
we would have to make
 some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> Xuxiaohu<br>
M</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-1=
3910161692</a>
<br>
E</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank=
">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=
=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">-</sp=
an><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=BD=91</span><span =
style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=
=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E5=8F=
=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt=
">
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E6=
=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.=
5pt">
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail=
.com</a>&gt;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for=
-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spri=
ng@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E4=
=B8=BB</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt"=
>
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spri=
ng] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E6=97=
=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24=
:10</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This draft breaks the SR archit=
ecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13<=
/a>, which states:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a=
 flow through any topological path while maintaining per-flow state only at=
 the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">In addition to creating states =
at transit and egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and =
makes it unscalable. It also makes controller job much
 harder and error prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex and =
unscalable.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of G=
reg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">g=
regimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Shraddha,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">than=
k you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questio=
ns I&#39;d like to discuss:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Have you thought of using not one special purpose labe=
l for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but r=
equest two special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Iden=
tifier would not have to lose the
 bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">And how you envision to collect the counters along the=
 path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters f=
or the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#=
39;d propose to use in-band mechanism,
 perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters=
 of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<=
u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">And the last, have you considered ability to flush cou=
nters per flow. In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counte=
rs are maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that i=
s on the node scope, you may have to turn
 off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I think that finer g=
ranularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again, perh=
aps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement and tr=
igger release of counters.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Greg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is
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elete the original
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______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">______________________________<wbr>______________=
________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>___________________=
___________<wbr>_<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir=
 des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<u></u>=
<u></u></span></pre>
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isation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<u></=
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<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">a l&#39;expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les p=
ieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d&#39;alterati=
on,<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message=
 a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">This message and its attachments may contain conf=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">______________________________<wbr>______________=
___<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">mpls mailing list<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">mpls@ietf.org</a><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/=
mpls" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a>=
<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

--94eb2c1b4fe8ce17d4055e254b32--


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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, "Alexander Vainshtein" <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "Michael Gorokhovsky" <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
Thread-Index: AQHTXunKIlzI9C0S3kK6jHSVzwLQDaMX3mEAgAATONA=
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 03:55:21 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>, "Ext - Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
CC: "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "zali@cisco.com" <zali@cisco.com>, "robert@raszuk.net" <robert@raszuk.net>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 04:02:16 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/AcI1OHmT8KKLVElhSo-hYcyn15k>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>, "Ext - Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
CC: "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "zali@cisco.com" <zali@cisco.com>, "robert@raszuk.net" <robert@raszuk.net>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: [spring] please reduce TO: and CC: lists to strict minimum
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messages are bouncing.

thanks
-m


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 12:53:52 +0800
Message-ID: <CA+RyBmWZbt=cLjD6X0faVdwar0wqmNVeHt7ZjSPtrQMyvG1BYg@mail.gmail.com>
To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
Cc: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>,  "Ext - Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>,  "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "zali@cisco.com" <zali@cisco.com>,  "robert@raszuk.net" <robert@raszuk.net>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/vOJGyqAhDF0pmH397mKmXkOSuiU>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi John, et. al,
GAL may be placed anywhere in the stack, not only at the BoS. That was
re-affirmed by RFC 6423 that extended applicability of the GAL to PWs. Thus
GAL indicates that the ACH immediately follows the label stack, i.e. what
ever label has S bit set. Resulting from that, I think, we may set GAL
multiple times in SR-MPLS stack to work around the RLD syndrome. Yes, it is
bump-in-a-wire with ACH.

Regards,
Greg

On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 12:02 PM, John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net> wrote:

> Dave,
>
>
>
> I think the EoS bit is set in the GAL.  I.e., there would be a small fixe=
d
> size identifier between the stack and the payload.  As I indicated it=E2=
=80=99s
> just a suggestion.
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> *From:* David Allan I [mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 10:26 PM
> *To:* John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>; Ext - Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de <
> Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>; adrian@olddog.co.uk
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org;
> spring@ietf.org; zali@cisco.com; robert@raszuk.net; mpls@ietf.org
> *Subject:* RE: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Would not the concept of
>
>
>
> <forwarding labels><GAL><id>(EOS set)<payload>
>
>
>
> Get a bit strange?  We are simply swapping one reserved label for another=
=E2=80=A6
>
>
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org <spring-bounces@ietf.org>]=
 *On
> Behalf Of *John E Drake
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 8:00 PM
> *To:* Ext - Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>;
> adrian@olddog.co.uk
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org;
> spring@ietf.org; zali@cisco.com; robert@raszuk.net; mpls@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Ruediger,
>
>
>
> There is also the possibility of using a GAL w/ a new fixed size GACH
> containing the SR Segment List Id.  This is similar to Robert=E2=80=99s s=
uggestion
> of using a VXLAN header.
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:44 AM
> *To:* adrian@olddog.co.uk
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org;
> spring@ietf.org; robert@raszuk.net; mpls@ietf.org; zali@cisco.com
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] redux: Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Adrian,
>
>
>
> to me, there=E2=80=99s no ideal solution. But an analysis may help to fin=
d a
> useful solution. There=E2=80=99s a need to collect traffic statistics als=
o for
> packets which don=E2=80=99t follow the shortest end to end path. There=E2=
=80=99s no simple
> howto, I think.
>
>
>
> For the time being, I=E2=80=99d prefer not to add special labels to the s=
tack.
> What other options are there?
>
> -        Accounting at the router pushing a relevant label stack only.
>
> -        Accounting of an n-label stack.
>
> -        Acoounting of a subset of labels only (e.g. Node-SID Labels and
> Anycast-SID, but not ADJ-SID). The idea is a compromise to limit the numb=
er
> of counters be maintained. Consider accounting of the top 2 labels carryi=
ng
> global routing information.
>
> -        A special label. Shradda proposes to put such a label into the
> stack. The labels present there prior to the addition are maintained. One
> might think about a single top label which identifies and replaces the
> label stack carrying routing information relevant for the path. That woul=
d
> simplify accounting, but it requires suitable IGP functionality.
>
>
>
> None of the options sounds simple. Are there more (and simpler) ones I
> didn=E2=80=99t come upon?
>
>
>
> Regards, Ruediger
>
>
>
> *Von:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org <spring-bounces@ietf.org>] =
*Im
> Auftrag von *Adrian Farrel
> *Gesendet:* Donnerstag, 16. November 2017 06:35
> *An:* 'Mach Chen' <mach.chen@huawei.com>; 'Jeff Tantsura' <
> jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>; 'Robert Raszuk' <robert@raszuk.net>
> *Cc:* 'draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths' <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; 'spring' <
> spring@ietf.org>; 'Zafar Ali (zali)' <zali@cisco.com>; 'mpls' <
> mpls@ietf.org>
> *Betreff:* Re: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Let's unpick a couple of things...
>
>
>
> 1. This work is not talking about per-flow accounting, it is talking abou=
t
> peer SR-path accounting
>
> 2. ipfix on its own does not cut it because you still have to put a marke=
r
> in the packets
>
> 3. Yes, SR assumes there is no (i.e. zero) state per SR-path in the netwo=
rk
>
> But this third point causes a tension: we want to use SR because it is
> good, but we want to do transit node diagnostics because (frankly) they a=
re
> necessary.
>
> To get the full picture of why they are necessary read the draft, or
> consider ECMP.
>
>
>
> This discussion will not be unfamiliar to those who tried to debug LDP
> networks.
>
>
>
> Adrian
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
>

--94eb2c1a656cf51ca4055e2685e5
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi John, et. al,<div>GAL may be placed anywhere in the sta=
ck, not only at the BoS. That was re-affirmed by RFC 6423 that extended app=
licability of the GAL to PWs. Thus GAL indicates that the ACH immediately f=
ollows the label stack, i.e. what ever label has S bit set. Resulting from =
that, I think, we may set GAL multiple times in SR-MPLS stack to work aroun=
d the RLD syndrome. Yes, it is bump-in-a-wire with ACH.</div><div><br></div=
><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 12:02 PM, John E Drake <spa=
n dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">j=
drake@juniper.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-7984411085068244073WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Dave,<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">I think the EoS bit is=
 set in the GAL.=C2=A0 I.e., there would be a small fixed size identifier b=
etween the stack and the payload.=C2=A0 As I indicated it=E2=80=99s just a =
suggestion.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">John<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> David Allan I [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@<wbr>ericsson.=
com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 10:26 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D=
"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt;; Ext - <a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@=
telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de</a> &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de<=
/a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@ol=
ddog.co.uk</a><span class=3D""><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-p=
aths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting=
-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=
=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=
=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
</span><b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in=
 draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Would not the concept of <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;forwarding labels&gt;&lt;GAL&gt;&lt;id&gt;(EOS s=
et)&lt;payload&gt;<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Get a bit strange?=C2=A0 We are simply swapping one =
reserved label for another=E2=80=A6<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dave<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> spring [<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounce=
s@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John E Drake<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 8:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ext - <a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=3D"_bla=
nk">Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@teleko=
m.de" target=3D"_blank">Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddog.co.u=
k</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-p=
aths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>; =
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">za=
li@cisco.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">
robert@raszuk.net</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">m=
pls@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-=
hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Ruediger,<u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">There is also the poss=
ibility of using a GAL w/ a new fixed size GACH containing the SR Segment L=
ist Id.=C2=A0 This is similar to Robert=E2=80=99s suggestion of using a VXL=
AN header. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">John<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
</span><div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0=
in 0in 4.0pt"><span class=3D"">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ie=
tf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=3D"_=
blank">Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@=
olddog.co.uk</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-p=
aths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>; =
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank"=
>robert@raszuk.net</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
mpls@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali=
@cisco.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-=
hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">Adrian,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">to me, there=E2=80=99s no ideal solution. But an ana=
lysis may help to find a useful solution. There=E2=80=99s a need to collect=
 traffic statistics also for packets which don=E2=80=99t follow the shortes=
t end to end path. There=E2=80=99s no simple howto, I think.<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For the time being, I=E2=80=99d prefer not to add sp=
ecial labels to the stack. What other options are there?<u></u><u></u></p>
</span><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<u></u><span>-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>Accounting at the router pushing a relevant label stac=
k only.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<u></u><span>-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>Accounting of an n-label stack.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<u></u><span>-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>Acoounting of a subset of labels only (e.g. Node-SID L=
abels and Anycast-SID, but not ADJ-SID). The idea is a compromise to limit =
the number of counters be maintained. Consider accounting of the top 2 labe=
ls carrying global routing information.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<u></u><span>-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>A special label. Shradda proposes to put such a label =
into the stack. The labels present there prior to the addition are maintain=
ed. One might think about a single top label which identifies and replaces =
the label stack carrying routing
 information relevant for the path. That would simplify accounting, but it =
requires suitable IGP functionality. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><span class=3D=
"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">None of the options sounds simple. Are there more (a=
nd simpler) ones I didn=E2=80=99t come upon?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards, Ruediger<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>Von:</b> spring [<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>]
<b>Im Auftrag von </b>Adrian Farrel<br>
<b>Gesendet:</b> Donnerstag, 16. November 2017 06:35<br>
<b>An:</b> &#39;<span lang=3D"DE">Mach Chen&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mach=
.chen@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">mach.chen@huawei.com</a>&gt;; &#39;Jeff=
 Tantsura&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">jefftant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; &#39;Robert Raszuk&#39; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<b=
r>
<b>Cc:</b> &#39;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&#39=
; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-=
sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; &#39;spring&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spri=
ng@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 &#39;Zafar Ali (zali)&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D=
"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; &#39;mpls&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-=
hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">Let&#39=
;s unpick a couple of things...<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">1. This=
 work is not talking about per-flow accounting, it is talking about peer SR=
-path accounting<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">2. ipfi=
x on its own does not cut it because you still have to put a marker in the =
packets<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">3. Yes,=
 SR assumes there is no (i.e. zero) state per SR-path in the network<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">But thi=
s third point causes a tension: we want to use SR because it is good, but w=
e want to do transit node diagnostics because (frankly) they are necessary.=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">To get =
the full picture of why they are necessary read the draft, or consider ECMP=
.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">This di=
scussion will not be unfamiliar to those who tried to debug LDP networks.<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">Adrian<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

--94eb2c1a656cf51ca4055e2685e5--


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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 12:12:05 +0100
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Stewart,

Cariden Mate based on the topology and netflow computes accurate live
trafic matrix from src to dst and includes transit points for years.

It even estimates load upon failure of a node or a link.

The entire discussion here clearly does not consider or is just not aware
about tools available for a long time for IP and LDP networks capacity
planning.

And when we rolled out RSVP-TE 17 years back Cariden proved that their
accuracy of adjusting the IGP metric to wisely distribute the traffic
across domain is almost as good (95% if I recall correctly) as entire
RSVP-TE machinery.

Ref:

https://www.google.com.sg/url?sa=3Dt&source=3Dweb&rct=3Dj&url=3Dhttp://ripe=
61.ripe.net/presentations/156-ripe61-bcp-planning-and-te.pdf&ved=3D0ahUKEwj=
F59nKtsXXAhUGKY8KHZpPB9gQFggnMAE&usg=3DAOvVaw3QvoSRcs1lFFrj1LEylTft

So before we load set of new requirements on forwarding plane please let's
at least be aware on what is possible today without those new hardware
extensions.

Many thx,
Robert.


On Nov 17, 2017 13:56, "Stewart Bryant" <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> wrote:



On 17 Nov 2017, at 11:26 am, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

Folks,

LDP LSPs follow pure dst based IGP SPT. So for each ip dst the path packet
takes is well known.

Yes but ... it is subjected to ecmp and just as you may wish to tune the sr
stack to avoid a hotspot, so you might wish to tune the EL to get a better
traffic spread.

What is there to record at each transit router hop other then what you
already have today from basic netflow counters ?


The traffic source.

Stewart



Thx
R.

On Nov 17, 2017 04:18, "Mach Chen" <mach.chen@huawei.com> wrote:

> Hi Stewart,
>
>
>
> Indeed, the same idea can apply to both MPLS-SR and MPLS-LDP. For now, th=
e
> requirements that I heard are from MPLS-SR.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
>
>
> *From:* Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, November 17, 2017 10:45 AM
> *To:* Mach Chen; stephane.litkowski@orange.com; Robert Raszuk; Alexander
> Vainshtein
> *Cc:* mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-account=
ing-for-sr-paths;
> Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali
> (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
>
> I would like to ask a fundamental question here.
>
> Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for
> MPLS-LDP as well?
>
> If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a general
> MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.
>
> At least some of the methods described here would work for both.
>
> Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are used,
> that only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot which I understa=
nd
> to be the original goal.
>
> - Stewart
>
> On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen wrote:
>
> Hi Stephane,
>
>
>
> If you want to do transit measurement, you have to pay some cost. The
> difference is how large the cost is, one, two or multiple labels.
>
>
>
> For E2E measurement, it could be much easier. A single label (could be
> local or global) is inserted immediately follow the last label of the SR
> path. Since there is only one label, the path label could be put into the
> stack at the beginning, no matter whether the measurement is enable or no=
t.
> With this, it will not affect the entropy.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *stephane.litkowski@orange.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM
> *To:* Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-account=
ing-for-sr-paths;
> Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali
> (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Yes today we do not have any CLI command on any router to get paths
> statistics for LDP (I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P LSP=
s,
> so a transit node does not have the knowledge of the source. From an
> operational point of  view, what we do today is that we collect netflow
> statistics on core routers, we project the label stack onto the routing
> with an external tool to get the Ingress to Egress LDP traffic including
> the mapping of the flows on the links.
>
>
>
> Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as the LSP is P2P and has states
> on every node.
>
>
>
> Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS dataplane) ha=
s
> limited TE features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE without
> adding too much complexity).
>
>
>
> Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats) worth to be solved ? If yes,
> where do we accept to put the complexity ? For a stats issue I would rath=
er
> prefer to move the complexity to an external tool that can do correlation=
s
> or whatever operations rather than getting it in the forwarding plane=E2=
=80=A6
>
> IMO, that=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cnice to have=E2=80=9D problem to solve get=
ting that we do not have
> this for LDP and we know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.
>
> However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for sure mandatory to get !
>
>
>
> The main drawback I see with the proposed solution is that it mimics what
> Entropy label does with a solution which is similar and at the same time
> cannot replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far from being
> sufficient (this is not the goal I know, but I was looking for potential
> use case optimizations). So in a network running entropy label and this
> mechanism, a router will need to find the ELI/EL and hash, then find
> another special label to build the stats (maybe tomorrow there will be a
> third one to look at and a fourth one=E2=80=A6). That starts to be a big =
overhead
> for the forwarding plane.
>
>
>
> Brgds,
>
>
>
> Stephane
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky;
> draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accoun=
ting-for-sr-paths;
> Zafar Ali (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Folks,
>
>
>
> This thread started and the requirements reported clearly stated that all
> what we need is the ability to account per path traffic on egress nodes.
>
>
>
> Now out of the sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to measure
> per path in transit nodes.
>
>
>
> Well you can do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or you can do
> it with RSVP-TE.
>
>
>
> SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But SR-MPLS
> never intended to become connection oriented protocol nor architecture.
>
>
>
> So I recommend we take a step back here. Or if you like first go and fix
> basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to end path accounting in transit
> nodes then come back here to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not the other w=
ay
> around.
>
>
>
> Thx
>
> r.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein" <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abili=
ty to
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
> require OAM function for SR.
>
>
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_=
text=3D1>
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
> implementation report
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-rep=
ort-00>
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in any
> case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
> two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.
>
>
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc
> ounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-
> for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose label=
s in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr
> aft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
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>
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>
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>

--94eb2c1b4fe89cbadf055e2bcebd
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div>Stewart,<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto=
">Cariden Mate based on the topology and netflow computes accurate live tra=
fic matrix from src to dst and includes transit points for years.</div><div=
 dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">It even estimates load upon failu=
re of a node or a link.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">=
The entire discussion here clearly does not consider or is just not aware a=
bout tools available for a long time for IP and LDP networks capacity plann=
ing.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">And when we rolled =
out RSVP-TE 17 years back Cariden proved that their accuracy of adjusting t=
he IGP metric to wisely distribute the traffic across domain is almost as g=
ood (95% if I recall correctly) as entire RSVP-TE machinery.</div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Ref:=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br=
></div><div dir=3D"auto"><a href=3D"https://www.google.com.sg/url?sa=3Dt&am=
p;source=3Dweb&amp;rct=3Dj&amp;url=3Dhttp://ripe61.ripe.net/presentations/1=
56-ripe61-bcp-planning-and-te.pdf&amp;ved=3D0ahUKEwjF59nKtsXXAhUGKY8KHZpPB9=
gQFggnMAE&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw3QvoSRcs1lFFrj1LEylTft">https://www.google.com.sg=
/url?sa=3Dt&amp;source=3Dweb&amp;rct=3Dj&amp;url=3Dhttp://ripe61.ripe.net/p=
resentations/156-ripe61-bcp-planning-and-te.pdf&amp;ved=3D0ahUKEwjF59nKtsXX=
AhUGKY8KHZpPB9gQFggnMAE&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw3QvoSRcs1lFFrj1LEylTft</a></div><di=
v dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">So before we load set of new req=
uirements on forwarding plane please let&#39;s at least be aware on what is=
 possible today without those new hardware extensions.</div><div dir=3D"aut=
o"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Many thx,</div><div dir=3D"auto">Robert.</di=
v><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 17, =
2017 13:56, &quot;Stewart Bryant&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant=
@gmail.com">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"=
><blockquote class=3D"quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"quoted-text"><div=
></div><div><br></div><div><br>On 17 Nov 2017, at 11:26 am, Robert Raszuk &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net=
</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"aut=
o">Folks,<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">LDP LSPs follow pure=
 dst based IGP SPT. So for each ip dst the path packet takes is well known.=
</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div>Yes b=
ut ... it is subjected to ecmp and just as you may wish to tune the sr stac=
k to avoid a hotspot, so you might wish to tune the EL to get a better traf=
fic spread.</div><div class=3D"quoted-text"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><=
div><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"auto">What is there to record at each tra=
nsit router hop other then what you already have today from basic netflow c=
ounters ?</div></div></div></blockquote><div>=C2=A0</div></div><div>The tra=
ffic source.</div><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div>Stewart</div>=
</font><div class=3D"elided-text"><div><br></div><br><blockquote type=3D"ci=
te"><div><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Th=
x</div><div dir=3D"auto">R.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 17, 2017 04:18, &quot;Mach Chen&quot; &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mach.chen@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">mach.chen@huawei.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-356306197941050220m_-4059884648803605259WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Hi Stewart=
,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Indeed, th=
e same idea can apply to both MPLS-SR and MPLS-LDP. For now, the requiremen=
ts that I heard are from MPLS-SR.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Best regar=
ds,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Mach<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> Stewart Bryant [mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">stewart.b=
ryant@gmail.c<wbr>om</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 17, 2017 10:45 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mach Chen; <a href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a>; Robert Raszuk; Alexander V=
ainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<=
wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths; Michael Gorokhovsky; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf=
-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-oam-useca=
se@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
I would like to ask a fundamental question here.<br>
<br>
Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for MPLS-LDP=
 as well?<br>
<br>
If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a general M=
PLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.<br>
<br>
At least some of the methods described here would work for both.<br>
<br>
Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are used, th=
at only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot which I understand t=
o be the original goal.
<br>
<br>
- Stewart<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen =
wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Hi Stephan=
e,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">If you wan=
t to do transit measurement, you have to pay some cost. The difference is h=
ow large the cost is, one, two or multiple labels.</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">For E2E me=
asurement, it could be much easier. A single label (could be local or globa=
l) is inserted immediately follow the last label of the SR
 path. Since there is only one label, the path label could be put into the =
stack at the beginning, no matter whether the measurement is enable or not.=
 With this, it will not affect the entropy.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Best regar=
ds,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Mach</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com" target=
=3D"_blank">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<=
wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths; Michael Gorokhovsky;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Hi,</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Yes today =
we do not have any CLI command on any router to get paths statistics for LD=
P (I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P LSPs,
 so a transit node does not have the knowledge of the source. From an opera=
tional point of=C2=A0 view, what we do today is that we collect netflow sta=
tistics on core routers, we project the label stack onto the routing with a=
n external tool to get the Ingress to
 Egress LDP traffic including the mapping of the flows on the links.</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Now for RS=
VP, we do have such statistics as the LSP is P2P and has states on every no=
de.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Robert men=
tioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS dataplane) has limited TE=
 features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE without
 adding too much complexity).</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Thus, is i=
t a problem (transit node stats) worth to be solved ? If yes, where do we a=
ccept to put the complexity ? For a stats issue I would rather
 prefer to move the complexity to an external tool that can do correlations=
 or whatever operations rather than getting it in the forwarding plane=E2=
=80=A6</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">IMO, that=
=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cnice to have=E2=80=9D problem to solve getting that w=
e do not have this for LDP and we know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">However, I=
ngress stats per SRTE LSP are for sure mandatory to get !
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">The main d=
rawback I see with the proposed solution is that it mimics what Entropy lab=
el does with a solution which is similar and at the same time
 cannot replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far from being suf=
ficient (this is not the goal I know, but I was looking for potential use c=
ase optimizations). So in a network running entropy label and this mechanis=
m, a router will need to find the
 ELI/EL and hash, then find another special label to build the stats (maybe=
 tomorrow there will be a third one to look at and a fourth one=E2=80=A6). =
That starts to be a big overhead for the forwarding plane.
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Brgds,</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Stephane</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky; <a href=3D=
"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; draft-hegde-spring-traffic=
-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Folks,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This thread started and the req=
uirements reported clearly stated that all what we need is the ability to a=
ccount per path traffic on egress nodes.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Now out of the sudden I see req=
uirement popping up to be able to measure per path in transit nodes.<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Well you can do it today with S=
Rv6 if your hardware allows or you can do it with RSVP-TE.<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and ad=
ds ability for limited TE. But SR-MPLS never intended to become connection =
oriented protocol nor architecture.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">So I recommend we take a step b=
ack here. Or if you like first go and fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per =
end to end path accounting in transit nodes then come back here to ask for =
the same in SR-MPLS. Not the other way
 around.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thx<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">r.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, &quot;Al=
exander Vainshtein&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele=
.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Greg,</spa=
n><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">I concur w=
ith your position: let=E2=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that ability to m=
easure traffic
 carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require OAM functi=
on for SR.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">I have loo=
ked up the
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?=
include_text=3D1" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there=
. </span>
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">The only t=
ime measurements are mentioned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementa=
tion-report-00" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.=C2=
=A0 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevan=
t, IMHO, for this discussion.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">I have add=
ed the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Regards,</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Sasha</spa=
n><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.c<wbr>om</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&=
quot;sans-serif&quot;">
 mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mp=
ls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>counting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.org</a><wbr>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">z=
ali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Dear All,<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I cannot imagine that operators=
 will agree to deploy network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor perf=
ormance and troubleshoot the network. True, some will
 brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even they will likely re=
quest that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their operational needs=
. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and why ability to qua=
ntify the flow behavior at internal
 nodes is important for efficient network operation. First let&#39;s discus=
s whether the case and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we c=
an continue to discussion of what measurement method to use.<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Greg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 A=
M, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xu=
xiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
Concur. Although it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my po=
int of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence =
we would have to make
 some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> Xuxiaohu<br>
M</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-1=
3910161692</a>
<br>
E</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank=
">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=
=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">-</sp=
an><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=BD=91</span><span =
style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=
=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E5=8F=
=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt=
">
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E6=
=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.=
5pt">
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail=
.com</a>&gt;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-heg<wbr>de-spring-traffic-accounting-<wbr>for=
-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">mp<wbr>ls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@<wbr>ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E4=
=B8=BB</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt"=
>
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spri=
ng] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-fo=
r-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E6=97=
=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24=
:10</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This draft breaks the SR archit=
ecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr<wbr>aft-ietf-spring-segment-routin<wbr>g-13<=
/a>, which states:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a=
 flow through any topological path while maintaining per-flow state only at=
 the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">In addition to creating states =
at transit and egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and =
makes it unscalable. It also makes controller job much
 harder and error prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex and =
unscalable.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of G=
reg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">g=
regimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>co=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>counting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Shraddha,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">than=
k you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questio=
ns I&#39;d like to discuss:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Have you thought of using not one special purpose labe=
l for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but r=
equest two special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Iden=
tifier would not have to lose the
 bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">And how you envision to collect the counters along the=
 path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters f=
or the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#=
39;d propose to use in-band mechanism,
 perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters=
 of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<=
u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">And the last, have you considered ability to flush cou=
nters per flow. In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counte=
rs are maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that i=
s on the node scope, you may have to turn
 off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I think that finer g=
ranularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again, perh=
aps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement and tr=
igger release of counters.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Greg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
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This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">______________________________<wbr>______________=
________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>___________________=
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<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir=
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isation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<u></=
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<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">a l&#39;expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les p=
ieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d&#39;alterati=
on,<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message=
 a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">______________________________<wbr>______________=
___<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">mpls mailing list<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">mpls@ietf.org</a><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/=
mpls" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/mpls</a>=
<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

--94eb2c1b4fe89cbadf055e2bcebd--


From nobody Fri Nov 17 07:33:17 2017
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To: mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
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From: Martin Horneffer <maho@nic.dtag.de>
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Subject: [spring] measurement requirements (was Re: [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths)
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Hi,

first thank you Shraddha for bringing the topic of traffic measurement 
to the lists.
And thanks to Stephane for focusing on the - from my point of view - 
most important aspects.

Apparently you can have different requirement for traffic measurement 
and based on those you'll need more or less complex solutions. And then 
you can often place different degree of complexity and different points.

While I don't know everybody's measurement requirements I can name those 
from an operator of a large multi protocol backbone that bears many 
different services on a global scale. Tools for network simulation and 
optimization like those mentioned by Robert - but not limited to that 
particular tool - appear to have the same basic requirement:

  - On a given topology, which can be the whole MPLS cloud, or as well a 
"core" like subtopology, you need an end-to-end traffic matrix in order 
to be able to simulate the exact traffic distribution to that topology 
and for possible changes, be it network remodeling or traffic 
engineering optimizations.

  - At least for our network the design goal was always to keep 
complexity for the forwarding nodes as low as possible. Neccessary 
complexity should better be moved to external tools that do the traffic 
matric calculation and network simulation. Even though we always had a 
strong focus on traffic measurement we never wanted to change the actual 
forwarding just for the sake of measurement.

What this really means is that we don't need to measure every single 
path an every node. Thus the current proposal is quite over-engineered 
for our purpose (and probably overly complex).

If we look at current MPLS-LDP networks, contemporary devices have 
enough means for ende-to-end traffic matrix measurements. Regardless of 
whether they are called "MPLS counters" or "LDP traffic statistics": 
there are per-FEC counters and they are well-suited, when taken from 
alle involved routers, to exactly get the traffic matrix. And there are 
usually counters at head ends of traffic enigneering tunnels of any 
kind, so that you always can verify the effect of related traffic 
engineering measures.

Per-FEC counters do not require additinal state in routers. They merely 
require a counter for every FIB entry they need to have anyways.

Do we need a requirements document to get the same for SR?

Other ideas for getting the traffic matrix are welcome, just please 
don't add more complexity on the forwarding machinery, e.g. don't add 
more labels than really needed.

Best regards, Martin


Am 16.11.17 um 11:48 schrieb stephane.litkowski@orange.com:
>
> Hi,
>
> Yes today we do not have any CLI command on any router to get paths 
> statistics for LDP (I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P 
> LSPs, so a transit node does not have the knowledge of the source. 
> From an operational point of  view, what we do today is that we 
> collect netflow statistics on core routers, we project the label stack 
> onto the routing with an external tool to get the Ingress to Egress 
> LDP traffic including the mapping of the flows on the links.
>
> Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as the LSP is P2P and has 
> states on every node.
>
> Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS dataplane) 
> has limited TE features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE 
> without adding too much complexity).
>
> Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats) worth to be solved ? If 
> yes, where do we accept to put the complexity ? For a stats issue I 
> would rather prefer to move the complexity to an external tool that 
> can do correlations or whatever operations rather than getting it in 
> the forwarding plane…
>
> IMO, that’s a “nice to have” problem to solve getting that we do not 
> have this for LDP and we know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.
>
> However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for sure mandatory to get !
>
> The main drawback I see with the proposed solution is that it mimics 
> what Entropy label does with a solution which is similar and at the 
> same time cannot replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far 
> from being sufficient (this is not the goal I know, but I was looking 
> for potential use case optimizations). So in a network running entropy 
> label and this mechanism, a router will need to find the ELI/EL and 
> hash, then find another special label to build the stats (maybe 
> tomorrow there will be a third one to look at and a fourth one…). That 
> starts to be a big overhead for the forwarding plane.
>
> Brgds,
>
> Stephane
>
> *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky; 
> draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; Zafar Ali (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> Folks,
>
> This thread started and the requirements reported clearly stated that 
> all what we need is the ability to account per path traffic on egress 
> nodes.
>
> Now out of the sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to 
> measure per path in transit nodes.
>
> Well you can do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or you can 
> do it with RSVP-TE.
>
> SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But SR-MPLS 
> never intended to become connection oriented protocol nor architecture.
>
> So I recommend we take a step back here. Or if you like first go and 
> fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to end path accounting in 
> transit nodes then come back here to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not 
> the other way around.
>
> Thx
>
> r.
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein" 
> <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com 
> <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let’s first  of all agree that ability to 
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is 
> a require OAM function for SR.
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_text=1> 
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired 
> implementation report 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-report-00> 
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in 
> any case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end 
> (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this 
> discussion.
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <tel:+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell: +972-549266302 <tel:+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email: Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com 
> <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
>
> *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org 
> <mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths 
> <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org 
> <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>; 
> spring <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>; Zafar Ali (zali) 
> <zali@cisco.com <mailto:zali@cisco.com>>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org 
> <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that 
> lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the 
> network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters 
> but even they will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient 
> to support their operational needs. I see that this work clearly 
> describes the problem and why ability to quantify the flow behavior at 
> internal nodes is important for efficient network operation. First 
> let's discuss whether the case and requirement towards OAM is real and 
> valid. Then we can continue to discussion of what measurement method 
> to use.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com 
> <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>> wrote:
>
>     Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from
>     my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority
>     object. Hence we would have to make some compromise.
>
>     Best regards,
>     Xiaohu
>
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     徐小虎 Xuxiaohu
>     M：+86-13910161692 <tel:+86-13910161692>
>     E：xuxiaohu@huawei.com <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
>     产品与解决方案-网络战略与业务发展部
>     Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
>     *发件人：***Zafar Ali (zali)
>
>     *收件人：***Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com
>     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org
>     <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>;spring<spring@ietf.org
>     <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>
>
>     *主**题：***Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>     *时间：***2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>     Hi,
>
>     This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
>     abstract of SR Architecture document
>     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13,
>     which states:
>
>     “SR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
>     maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR
>     domain.”
>
>     In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the
>     procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It
>     also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary,
>     I find the procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>     Thanks
>
>     Regards … Zafar
>
>     *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org
>     <mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Greg Mirsky
>     <gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>
>     *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
>     *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>"
>     <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>,
>     "mpls@ietf.org <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>" <mpls@ietf.org
>     <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>, "spring@ietf.org
>     <mailto:spring@ietf.org>" <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>
>     *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>     Hi Shraddha,
>
>     thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have
>     these questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>       * Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for
>         both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID
>         cases but request two special purpose labels, one for each
>         case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have to lose the
>         bit for C flag.
>       * And how you envision to collect the counters along the path?
>         Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or
>         counters for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source
>         SID). But in addition I'd propose to use in-band mechanism,
>         perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to
>         send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to
>         the predefined Collector.
>       * And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters
>         per flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that
>         counters are maintained as long as collection of statistics is
>         enabled. If that is on the node scope, you may have to turn
>         off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I think
>         that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful
>         for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to
>         signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Greg
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________
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From nobody Fri Nov 17 07:44:55 2017
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To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
Cc: mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
References: <CA+RyBmUHAkuA3o-LpHhMwCbkh0k+emt9OZ3B8Njj2h=jaasTZw@mail.gmail.com> <3B1EE673-044F-4E47-9C56-6FF360905C58@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE3047CEC9@NKGEML515-MBS.china.huawei.com> <CA+RyBmVC2OjEs-=1WsL13eBmycZtnYnM8ybSdmWhGPByLKNQfA@mail.gmail.com> <AM4PR03MB171328C37B726DE4AFF862D39D2E0@AM4PR03MB1713.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <CA+b+ERkYZpdGS90VBH202yXbDeaEcyHk3UWNW+NUKS-WrkHAOg@mail.gmail.com> <25654_1510829327_5A0D6D0F_25654_230_1_9E32478DFA9976438E7A22F69B08FF921EABF115@OPEXCLILMA4.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE2922B1DEF@dggeml510-mbs.china.huawei.com> <d36c2887-3722-b9ab-76fa-aecca77f0018@gmail.com>
From: Martin Horneffer <maho@nic.dtag.de>
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Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 16:44:38 +0100
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi Stewart,

a quick comment on this, from an operator's point of view: Yes, we do 
need the same measurements for LDP as well as for SR.

The exact kind of counter may be debatable. From what we have now, 
per-FEC counters (per-SID for SR) on every node seem like the best 
practical and existing solution.

Best regards, Martin


Am 17.11.17 um 03:45 schrieb Stewart Bryant:
>
> I would like to ask a fundamental question here.
>
> Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for 
> MPLS-LDP as well?
>
> If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a 
> general MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.
>
> At least some of the methods described here would work for both.
>
> Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are 
> used, that only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot which I 
> understand to be the original goal.
>
> - Stewart
>
> On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen wrote:
>>
>> Hi Stephane,
>>
>> If you want to do transit measurement, you have to pay some cost. The 
>> difference is how large the cost is, one, two or multiple labels.
>>
>> For E2E measurement, it could be much easier. A single label (could 
>> be local or global) is inserted immediately follow the last label of 
>> the SR path. Since there is only one label, the path label could be 
>> put into the stack at the beginning, no matter whether the 
>> measurement is enable or not. With this, it will not affect the entropy.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Mach
>>
>> *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of 
>> *stephane.litkowski@orange.com
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM
>> *To:* Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein
>> *Cc:* mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; 
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; Michael 
>> Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali (zali)
>> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in 
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Yes today we do not have any CLI command on any router to get paths 
>> statistics for LDP (I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P 
>> LSPs, so a transit node does not have the knowledge of the source. 
>> From an operational point of  view, what we do today is that we 
>> collect netflow statistics on core routers, we project the label 
>> stack onto the routing with an external tool to get the Ingress to 
>> Egress LDP traffic including the mapping of the flows on the links.
>>
>> Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as the LSP is P2P and has 
>> states on every node.
>>
>> Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS 
>> dataplane) has limited TE features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP 
>> does in SRTE without adding too much complexity).
>>
>> Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats) worth to be solved ? If 
>> yes, where do we accept to put the complexity ? For a stats issue I 
>> would rather prefer to move the complexity to an external tool that 
>> can do correlations or whatever operations rather than getting it in 
>> the forwarding plane…
>>
>> IMO, that’s a “nice to have” problem to solve getting that we do not 
>> have this for LDP and we know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.
>>
>> However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for sure mandatory to get !
>>
>> The main drawback I see with the proposed solution is that it mimics 
>> what Entropy label does with a solution which is similar and at the 
>> same time cannot replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far 
>> from being sufficient (this is not the goal I know, but I was looking 
>> for potential use case optimizations). So in a network running 
>> entropy label and this mechanism, a router will need to find the 
>> ELI/EL and hash, then find another special label to build the stats 
>> (maybe tomorrow there will be a third one to look at and a fourth 
>> one…). That starts to be a big overhead for the forwarding plane.
>>
>> Brgds,
>>
>> Stephane
>>
>> *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23
>> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
>> *Cc:* spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky; 
>> draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org 
>> <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>; 
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; Zafar Ali (zali)
>> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in 
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>> Folks,
>>
>> This thread started and the requirements reported clearly stated that 
>> all what we need is the ability to account per path traffic on egress 
>> nodes.
>>
>> Now out of the sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to 
>> measure per path in transit nodes.
>>
>> Well you can do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or you can 
>> do it with RSVP-TE.
>>
>> SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But SR-MPLS 
>> never intended to become connection oriented protocol nor architecture.
>>
>> So I recommend we take a step back here. Or if you like first go and 
>> fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to end path accounting in 
>> transit nodes then come back here to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not 
>> the other way around.
>>
>> Thx
>>
>> r.
>>
>> On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein" 
>> <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com 
>> <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Greg,
>>
>> I concur with your position: let’s first  of all agree that ability 
>> to measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node 
>> is a require OAM function for SR.
>>
>> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases 
>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_text=1> 
>> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>>
>> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired 
>> implementation report 
>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-report-00> 
>> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in 
>> any case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end 
>> (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this 
>> discussion.
>>
>> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Sasha
>>
>> Office: +972-39266302 <tel:+972%203-926-6302>
>>
>> Cell: +972-549266302 <tel:+972%2054-926-6302>
>>
>> Email: Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com 
>> <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
>>
>> *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org 
>> <mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
>> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>>
>> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths 
>> <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org 
>> <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>; 
>> spring <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>; Zafar Ali (zali) 
>> <zali@cisco.com <mailto:zali@cisco.com>>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org 
>> <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in 
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that 
>> lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the 
>> network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the early 
>> adopters but even they will likely request that the OAM toolbox be 
>> sufficient to support their operational needs. I see that this work 
>> clearly describes the problem and why ability to quantify the flow 
>> behavior at internal nodes is important for efficient network 
>> operation. First let's discuss whether the case and requirement 
>> towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to discussion of 
>> what measurement method to use.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Greg
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com 
>> <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from
>>     my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority
>>     object. Hence we would have to make some compromise.
>>
>>     Best regards,
>>     Xiaohu
>>
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>     徐小虎Xuxiaohu
>>     M：+86-13910161692 <tel:+86-13910161692>
>>     E：xuxiaohu@huawei.com <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
>>     产品与解决方案-网络战略与业务发展部
>>     Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>>
>>     *发件人：***Zafar Ali (zali)
>>
>>     *收件人：***Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org
>>     <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>;spring<spring@ietf.org
>>     <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>
>>
>>     *主**题：***Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>>     *时间：***2017-11-16 02:24:10
>>
>>     Hi,
>>
>>     This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet
>>     from abstract of SR Architecture document
>>     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13,
>>     which states:
>>
>>     “SR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
>>     maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR
>>     domain.”
>>
>>     In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the
>>     procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It
>>     also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In
>>     summary, I find the procedure very complex and unscalable.
>>
>>     Thanks
>>
>>     Regards … Zafar
>>
>>     *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org
>>     <mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Greg Mirsky
>>     <gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>
>>     *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
>>     *To:
>>     *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>"
>>     <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>,
>>     "mpls@ietf.org <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>" <mpls@ietf.org
>>     <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>, "spring@ietf.org
>>     <mailto:spring@ietf.org>" <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>
>>     *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
>>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>>     Hi Shraddha,
>>
>>     thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have
>>     these questions I'd like to discuss:
>>
>>       * Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for
>>         both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID
>>         cases but request two special purpose labels, one for each
>>         case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have to lose the
>>         bit for C flag.
>>       * And how you envision to collect the counters along the path?
>>         Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or
>>         counters for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source
>>         SID). But in addition I'd propose to use in-band mechanism,
>>         perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to
>>         send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to
>>         the predefined Collector.
>>       * And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters
>>         per flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that
>>         counters are maintained as long as collection of statistics
>>         is enabled. If that is on the node scope, you may have to
>>         turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I
>>         think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be
>>         useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be
>>         used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release
>>         of counters.
>>
>>     Regards,
>>
>>     Greg
>>
>>
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    Hi Stewart,<br>
    <br>
    a quick comment on this, from an operator's point of view: Yes, we
    do need the same measurements for LDP as well as for SR.<br>
    <br>
    The exact kind of counter may be debatable. From what we have now,
    per-FEC counters (per-SID for SR) on every node seem like the best
    practical and existing solution.<br>
    <br>
    Best regards, Martin<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 17.11.17 um 03:45 schrieb Stewart
      Bryant:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:d36c2887-3722-b9ab-76fa-aecca77f0018@gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
      <br>
      I would like to ask a fundamental question here.<br>
      <br>
      Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for
      MPLS-LDP as well?<br>
      <br>
      If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a
      general MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.<br>
      <br>
      At least some of the methods described here would work for both.<br>
      <br>
      Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are
      used, that only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot
      which I understand to be the original goal. <br>
      <br>
      - Stewart<br>
      <br>
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen wrote:<br>
      </div>
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          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Hi Stephane,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">If you want to do transit measurement, you
              have to pay some cost. The difference is how large the
              cost is, one, two or multiple labels.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">For E2E measurement, it could be much easier.
              A single label (could be local or global) is inserted
              immediately follow the last label of the SR path. Since
              there is only one label, the path label could be put into
              the stack at the beginning, no matter whether the
              measurement is enable or not. With this, it will not
              affect the entropy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Mach<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
            1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
            <div>
              <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
                1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                      lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                    lang="EN-US"> mpls [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                      href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                      moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                    <b>On Behalf Of </b><a
                      class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                      href="mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com"
                      moz-do-not-send="true">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a><br>
                    <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM<br>
                    <b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein<br>
                    <b>Cc:</b> mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils;
                    draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths;
                    Michael Gorokhovsky; <a
                      class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                      href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org"
                      moz-do-not-send="true">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org</a>;
                    Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
                    <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose
                    labels in
                    draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              </div>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Yes today we do not have any CLI command on
                any router to get paths statistics for LDP (I mean
                Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P LSPs, so a
                transit node does not have the knowledge of the source.
                From an operational point of  view, what we do today is
                that we collect netflow statistics on core routers, we
                project the label stack onto the routing with an
                external tool to get the Ingress to Egress LDP traffic
                including the mapping of the flows on the links.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as
                the LSP is P2P and has states on every node.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE
                (especially with MPLS dataplane) has limited TE features
                (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE without
                adding too much complexity).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats)
                worth to be solved ? If yes, where do we accept to put
                the complexity ? For a stats issue I would rather prefer
                to move the complexity to an external tool that can do
                correlations or whatever operations rather than getting
                it in the forwarding plane…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">IMO, that’s a “nice to have” problem to
                solve getting that we do not have this for LDP and we
                know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for
                sure mandatory to get ! <o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">The main drawback I see with the proposed
                solution is that it mimics what Entropy label does with
                a solution which is similar and at the same time cannot
                replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far
                from being sufficient (this is not the goal I know, but
                I was looking for potential use case optimizations). So
                in a network running entropy label and this mechanism, a
                router will need to find the ELI/EL and hash, then find
                another special label to build the stats (maybe tomorrow
                there will be a third one to look at and a fourth one…).
                That starts to be a big overhead for the forwarding
                plane. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Brgds,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Stephane<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                lang="EN-US"> mpls [<a
                  href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23<br>
                <b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
                <b>Cc:</b> spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael
                Gorokhovsky; <a
                  href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">
                  draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org</a>;
                draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths;
                Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose
                labels in
                draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Folks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">This thread
                      started and the requirements reported clearly
                      stated that all what we need is the ability to
                      account per path traffic on egress nodes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Now out of the
                      sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to
                      measure per path in transit nodes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Well you can
                      do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or
                      you can do it with RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">SR-MPLS is
                      replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But
                      SR-MPLS never intended to become connection
                      oriented protocol nor architecture.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">So I recommend
                      we take a step back here. Or if you like first go
                      and fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to
                      end path accounting in transit nodes then come
                      back here to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not the
                      other way around.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thx<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">r.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On Nov 16,
                        2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein" &lt;<a
                          href="mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;
                        wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">Greg,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">I concur with your position:
                            let’s first  of all agree that ability to
                            measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a
                            specific transit node is a require OAM
                            function for SR.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">I have looked up the <a
href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_text=1"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"> SR
                              OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not
                            find any relevant use cases there. </span>
                          <span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">The only time measurements are
                            mentioned is a reference to an <a
href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-report-00"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
                              expired implementation report</a> draft
                            discussing delay measurements.  Since delay
                            measurements are in any case based on
                            synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end
                            (one-way or two-way), this reference is not
                            relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.</span><span
                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">I have added the authors of the
                            SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><span
                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">Regards,</span><span
                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">Sasha</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">Office: <a
                              href="tel:+972%203-926-6302"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+972-39266302</a></span><span
                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">Cell:      <a
                              href="tel:+972%2054-926-6302"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+972-549266302</a></span><span
                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">Email:   <a
                              href="mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a></span><span
                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                              lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                            lang="EN-US"> mpls [mailto:<a
                              href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                            <b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
                            <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017
                            4:28 AM<br>
                            <b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a
                              href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
                            <b>Cc:</b>
                            draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
                            &lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
                            spring &lt;<a href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
                            Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a
                              href="mailto:zali@cisco.com"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;
                            mpls &lt;<a href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                            <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special
                            purpose labels in
                            draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                lang="EN-US">Dear All,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                  lang="EN-US">I cannot imagine that
                                  operators will agree to deploy network
                                  that lacks critical OAM tools to
                                  monitor performance and troubleshoot
                                  the network. True, some will brave the
                                  challenge and be the early adopters
                                  but even they will likely request that
                                  the OAM toolbox be sufficient to
                                  support their operational needs. I see
                                  that this work clearly describes the
                                  problem and why ability to quantify
                                  the flow behavior at internal nodes is
                                  important for efficient network
                                  operation. First let's discuss whether
                                  the case and requirement towards OAM
                                  is real and valid. Then we can
                                  continue to discussion of what
                                  measurement method to use.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                  lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                  lang="EN-US">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                  lang="EN-US">Greg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                  lang="EN-US">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at
                                  10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a
                                    href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;
                                  wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                              <blockquote
                                style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                <div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                                        lang="EN-US">Concur. Although it
                                        has some values, it's not
                                        cost-efficient from my point of
                                        view. Network simplicity should
                                        be the first priority object.
                                        Hence we would have to make some
                                        compromise.<br>
                                        <br>
                                        Best regards,<br>
                                        Xiaohu <br>
                                        <br>
                                        <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                    <div class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="text-align:center"
                                      align="center"><span lang="EN-US">
                                        <hr size="2" align="center"
                                          width="100%"> </span></div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                                        style="font-family:&quot;MS
                                        Gothic&quot;">徐小虎</span><span
                                        lang="EN-US"> Xuxiaohu<br>
                                        M</span><span
                                        style="font-family:&quot;MS
                                        Gothic&quot;">：</span><span
                                        lang="EN-US"><a
                                          href="tel:+86-13910161692"
                                          target="_blank"
                                          moz-do-not-send="true">+86-13910161692</a>
                                        <br>
                                        E</span><span
                                        style="font-family:&quot;MS
                                        Gothic&quot;">：</span><span
                                        lang="EN-US"><a
                                          href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                                          target="_blank"
                                          moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
                                      </span><span
                                        style="font-family:&quot;Microsoft
JhengHei&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">产品与解决方案</span><span lang="EN-US">-</span><span
                                        style="font-family:&quot;MS
                                        Gothic&quot;">网</span><span
                                        style="font-family:&quot;Microsoft
JhengHei&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">络战略与业务发展部</span><span
                                        lang="EN-US"><br>
                                        Products &amp; Solutions-Network
                                        Strategy &amp; Business
                                        Development Dept<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div
                                    style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                    #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0cm 0cm
                                    0cm"
                                    name="AnyOffice-Background-Image">
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft
                                            JhengHei&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">发件人：</span></b><b><span
                                            style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span
                                          style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                          lang="EN-US">Zafar Ali (zali)</span><span
                                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">收件人：</span></b><b><span
                                            style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span
                                          style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                          lang="EN-US">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a
href="mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a
                                            href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a
href="mailto:spring@ietf.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><span
                                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">主</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft
                                            JhengHei&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">题：</span></b><b><span
                                            style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span
                                          style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                          lang="EN-US">Re: [mpls]
                                          [spring] Special purpose
                                          labels in
                                          draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft
                                            JhengHei&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">时间：</span></b><b><span
                                            style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span
                                          style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                          lang="EN-US">2017-11-16
                                          02:24:10</span><span
                                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><span
                                        style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                        lang="EN-US"> </span><span
                                        lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US">Hi, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US">This draft
                                              breaks the SR
                                              architecture. I am quoting
                                              a snippet from abstract of
                                              SR Architecture document <a
href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13"
                                                target="_blank"
                                                moz-do-not-send="true">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>,
                                              which states:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US">“SR allows to
                                              enforce a flow through any
                                              topological path while
                                              maintaining per-flow state
                                              only at the ingress nodes
                                              to the SR domain.” <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US">In addition
                                              to creating states at
                                              transit and egress nodes,
                                              the procedure also affects
                                              the data plane and makes
                                              it unscalable. It also
                                              makes controller job much
                                              harder and error prune. In
                                              summary, I find the
                                              procedure very complex and
                                              unscalable. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US">Regards …
                                                Zafar <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          </div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <div
                                            style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                            #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
                                            0cm 0cm 0cm">
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
                                                  style="color:black"
                                                  lang="EN-US">From: </span></b><span
                                                style="color:black"
                                                lang="EN-US">spring &lt;<a
href="mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                                                on behalf of Greg Mirsky
                                                &lt;<a
                                                  href="mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                                <b>Date: </b>Wednesday,
                                                November 15, 2017 at
                                                11:10 AM<br>
                                                <b>To: </b>"<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>"
                                                &lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
                                                "<a
                                                  href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>"
                                                &lt;<a
                                                  href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
                                                "<a
                                                  href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>"
                                                &lt;<a
                                                  href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                                                <b>Subject: </b>[spring]
                                                Special purpose labels
                                                in
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                                                lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US">Hi </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">Shraddha,</span><span
                                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">thank you for very
                                                  well written and
                                                  thought through draft.
                                                  I have these questions
                                                  I'd like to discuss:</span><span
                                                  lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <ul type="disc">
                                                <li class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
                                                  level1 lfo3"> <span
                                                    lang="EN-US">Have
                                                    you thought of using
                                                    not one special
                                                    purpose label for
                                                    both SR Path
                                                    Identifier and SR
                                                    Path
                                                    Identifier+Source
                                                    SID cases but
                                                    request two special
                                                    purpose labels, one
                                                    for each case. Then
                                                    the SR Path
                                                    Identifier would not
                                                    have to lose the bit
                                                    for C flag.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
                                                <li class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
                                                  level1 lfo3"> <span
                                                    lang="EN-US">And how
                                                    you envision to
                                                    collect the counters
                                                    along the path? Of
                                                    course, a Controller
                                                    may query LSR for
                                                    all counters or
                                                    counters for the
                                                    particular flow (SR
                                                    Path
                                                    Identifier+Source
                                                    SID). But in
                                                    addition I'd propose
                                                    to use in-band
                                                    mechanism, perhaps
                                                    another special
                                                    purpose label, to
                                                    trigger the LSR to
                                                    send counters of the
                                                    same flow with the
                                                    timestamp out-band
                                                    to the predefined
                                                    Collector.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
                                                <li class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
                                                  level1 lfo3"> <span
                                                    lang="EN-US">And the
                                                    last, have you
                                                    considered ability
                                                    to flush counters
                                                    per flow. In
                                                    Scalability
                                                    Considerations
                                                    you've stated that
                                                    counters are
                                                    maintained as long
                                                    as collection of
                                                    statistics is
                                                    enabled. If that is
                                                    on the node scope,
                                                    you may have to turn
                                                    off/on the
                                                    collection to flush
                                                    off some old
                                                    counters. I think
                                                    that finer
                                                    granularity, per
                                                    flow granularity
                                                    would be useful for
                                                    operators. Again,
                                                    perhaps the flow
                                                    itself may be used
                                                    to signal the end of
                                                    the measurement and
                                                    trigger release of
                                                    counters.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
                                              </ul>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                    lang="EN-US">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                  lang="EN-US">Greg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </blockquote>
                            </div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
___________________________________________________________________________<br>
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___________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                    </div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                        lang="EN-US"><br>
                        _______________________________________________<br>
                        mpls mailing list<br>
                        <a href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
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                  </div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
            <pre><span lang="EN-US">_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
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            <pre><span lang="EN-US">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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          </div>
        </div>
        <br>
        <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
        <br>
        <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
mpls mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a>
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
mpls mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
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From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: Martin Horneffer <maho@nic.dtag.de>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] measurement requirements (was Re: [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths)
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Subject: Re: [spring] measurement requirements (was Re: [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths)
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/3Ia3QQsYyH6GH7DPRA3Pxe8Lv6E>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Thanks for helping me break my resolution to leave this thread alone :-(

>>> procedure (in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths) =
that breaks SR
>>> Architecture, highly unscalable and complicated to implement.=20
>>
>> [JD]  Do you have any evidence to justify any of your assertions, =
above?=20
>
> Please note that in =
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths:=20
>
> =E2=80=A2    The transit node needs to be able to recognize the =
special label, read
>        the SR Path Identification label and update the counter against =
such
>        =E2=80=9Cstates=E2=80=9D.=20

Possibly worth noting that existing devices are capable of maintaining =
many counters and updating them at line speed.

Several people have noted that ipfix is a process used for accounting in =
networks. That approach may have to find the bottom of stack and then =
match the packet that follows.=20

Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve finding the bottom of stack and =
hashing on the header of the payload.

Some hardware cannot perform either mechanism. This usually results from =
a trade between low cost, high performance, and features. Generally you =
can't have all three.
That hardware can't perform transit accounting with fine granularity =
(although you have promised us a solution within the next four months).

> =E2=80=A2    The draft proposes to push (up to) 3 Labels for each =
segment in the SR
>        Path. That means that label stack is increased up to 3x times! =
This is a=20
>        serious a scaling issue. =20

John asked for evidence and you provided a misunderstanding or =
misreading of our draft.=20
The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels per SR Path (noting as John =
did, that this is our own term).=20
That is not what you say, so perhaps you could retract or provide a =
pointer to the text.

Thus, "increased up to 3x times" applies only with the single case where =
the imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the three label =
option is applied. So, while what you say is true, it is clearly (and =
wilfully?) exaggerating the severity of impact, and it is doubtful that  =
4-label stack is actually a problem.

> =E2=80=A2    The controller needs to keep track of transit node =
capability and
>       push the additional per-path labels, accordingly. I.e., the =
controller
>       also needs to maintain such information for the transit nodes.=20

In most cases, the controller/ingress only needs to care about the =
capabilities of the egress nodes. That is, if the special purpose label =
reaches the top of the stack it has to be able to handle it.

The only time when the transit node issue arises is when there is a =
small RLD. That information may need to be known by the controller to =
enable correct ECMP behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.=20
If there is a desire to enable accounting at transit nodes with a small =
RLD then the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and *that* =
means that the controller has to be sensitive as to where in the network =
the special purpose label will rise to the top of the stack.

It seems to me that:
- Controllers are not particularly resource constrained: adding a flag =
per node
   (or even per link!) would not break any scaling behavior.
- Adding another flag to the IGP alongside the RLD is not significant =
scaling issue.

Cheer,
Adrian


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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 13:56:30 +0800
Cc: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, mpls@ietf.org, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>, "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
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To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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> On 17 Nov 2017, at 11:26 am, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>=20
> Folks,
>=20
> LDP LSPs follow pure dst based IGP SPT. So for each ip dst the path packet=
 takes is well known.
>=20
Yes but ... it is subjected to ecmp and just as you may wish to tune the sr s=
tack to avoid a hotspot, so you might wish to tune the EL to get a better tr=
affic spread.

> What is there to record at each transit router hop other then what you alr=
eady have today from basic netflow counters ?
=20
The traffic source.

Stewart


>=20
> Thx
> R.
>=20
>> On Nov 17, 2017 04:18, "Mach Chen" <mach.chen@huawei.com> wrote:
>> Hi Stewart,
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Indeed, the same idea can apply to both MPLS-SR and MPLS-LDP. For now, th=
e requirements that I heard are from MPLS-SR.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Best regards,
>>=20
>> Mach
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]=20
>> Sent: Friday, November 17, 2017 10:45 AM
>> To: Mach Chen; stephane.litkowski@orange.com; Robert Raszuk; Alexander Va=
inshtein
>> Cc: mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accountin=
g-for-sr-paths; Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org;=
 Zafar Ali (zali)
>> Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring=
-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>>=20
>> I would like to ask a fundamental question here.
>>=20
>> Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for MPLS-L=
DP as well?
>>=20
>> If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a general=
 MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.
>>=20
>> At least some of the methods described here would work for both.
>>=20
>> Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are used, t=
hat only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot which I understand t=
o be the original goal.=20
>>=20
>> - Stewart
>>=20
>> On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen wrote:
>>=20
>> Hi Stephane,
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> If you want to do transit measurement, you have to pay some cost. The dif=
ference is how large the cost is, one, two or multiple labels.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> For E2E measurement, it could be much easier. A single label (could be lo=
cal or global) is inserted immediately follow the last label of the SR path.=
 Since there is only one label, the path label could be put into the stack a=
t the beginning, no matter whether the measurement is enable or not. With th=
is, it will not affect the entropy.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Best regards,
>>=20
>> Mach
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of stephane.litkowski=
@orange.com
>> Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM
>> To: Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein
>> Cc: mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accountin=
g-for-sr-paths; Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org;=
 Zafar Ali (zali)
>> Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring=
-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Hi,
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Yes today we do not have any CLI command on any router to get paths stati=
stics for LDP (I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P LSPs, so a t=
ransit node does not have the knowledge of the source. =46rom an operational=
 point of  view, what we do today is that we collect netflow statistics on c=
ore routers, we project the label stack onto the routing with an external to=
ol to get the Ingress to Egress LDP traffic including the mapping of the flo=
ws on the links.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as the LSP is P2P and has states=
 on every node.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS dataplane) ha=
s limited TE features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE without ad=
ding too much complexity).
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats) worth to be solved ? If yes, w=
here do we accept to put the complexity ? For a stats issue I would rather p=
refer to move the complexity to an external tool that can do correlations or=
 whatever operations rather than getting it in the forwarding plane=E2=80=A6=

>>=20
>> IMO, that=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cnice to have=E2=80=9D problem to solve get=
ting that we do not have this for LDP and we know the limitations of SR-TE M=
PLS.
>>=20
>> However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for sure mandatory to get !
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> The main drawback I see with the proposed solution is that it mimics what=
 Entropy label does with a solution which is similar and at the same time ca=
nnot replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far from being suffici=
ent (this is not the goal I know, but I was looking for potential use case o=
ptimizations). So in a network running entropy label and this mechanism, a r=
outer will need to find the ELI/EL and hash, then find another special label=
 to build the stats (maybe tomorrow there will be a third one to look at and=
 a fourth one=E2=80=A6). That starts to be a big overhead for the forwarding=
 plane.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Brgds,
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Stephane
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
>> Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23
>> To: Alexander Vainshtein
>> Cc: spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spri=
ng-oam-usecase@ietf.org; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths;=
 Zafar Ali (zali)
>> Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring=
-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Folks,
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> This thread started and the requirements reported clearly stated that all=
 what we need is the ability to account per path traffic on egress nodes.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Now out of the sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to measure p=
er path in transit nodes.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Well you can do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or you can do i=
t with RSVP-TE.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But SR-MPLS nev=
er intended to become connection oriented protocol nor architecture.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> So I recommend we take a step back here. Or if you like first go and fix b=
asic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to end path accounting in transit nodes t=
hen come back here to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not the other way around.=

>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Thx
>>=20
>> r.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein" <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecite=
le.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> Greg,
>>=20
>> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abili=
ty to measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a=
 require OAM function for SR.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases draft, and I did not find any relev=
ant use cases there.
>>=20
>> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired imp=
lementation report draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measure=
ments are in any case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (=
one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussi=
on.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Regards,
>>=20
>> Sasha
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Office: +972-39266302
>>=20
>> Cell:      +972-549266302
>>=20
>> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Greg Mirsky
>> Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
>> To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
>> Cc: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-sprin=
g-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <spring@ietf.org>; Zafar=
 Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring=
-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Dear All,
>>=20
>> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks c=
ritical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network. True,=
 some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even they will l=
ikely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their operationa=
l needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and why ability t=
o quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important for efficient ne=
twork operation. First let's discuss whether the case and requirement toward=
s OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to discussion of what measurem=
ent method to use.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Regards,
>>=20
>> Greg
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we w=
ould have to make some compromise.
>>=20
>> Best regards,
>> Xiaohu=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
>> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692=20
>> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
>> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=
=A8
>> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>>=20
>> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Zafar Ali (zali)
>>=20
>> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>;d=
raft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic=
-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.or=
g>
>>=20
>> =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in=
 draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>=20
>> =E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Hi,
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstra=
ct of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring=
-segment-routing-13, which states:
>>=20
>> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while m=
aintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D=

>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure=
 also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes controll=
er job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the procedure very co=
mplex and unscalable.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Thanks
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <gregimir=
sky@gmail.com>
>> Date: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
>> To: "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-=
hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpl=
s@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>> Subject: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac=
counting-for-sr-paths
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Hi Shraddha,
>>=20
>> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these q=
uestions I'd like to discuss:
>>=20
>> Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path I=
dentifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special pu=
rpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have t=
o lose the bit for C flag.
>> And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course, a=
 Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular fl=
ow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd propose to use in-ba=
nd mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to s=
end counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefined C=
ollector.
>> And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In S=
calability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained as long=
 as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, you m=
ay have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I thin=
k that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operators=
. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the measur=
ement and trigger release of counters.
>> Regards,
>>=20
>> Greg
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _________________________________________________________________________=
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>>=20
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mation which is=20
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>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>> =20

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div></div><div><br></div><div><br>On 17 No=
v 2017, at 11:26 am, Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net">=
robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div=
><div dir=3D"auto">Folks,<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">LDP L=
SPs follow pure dst based IGP SPT. So for each ip dst the path packet takes i=
s well known.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div></div></div></blockquote><div=
>Yes but ... it is subjected to ecmp and just as you may wish to tune the sr=
 stack to avoid a hotspot, so you might wish to tune the EL to get a better t=
raffic spread.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"auto"><di=
v dir=3D"auto">What is there to record at each transit router hop other then=
 what you already have today from basic netflow counters ?</div></div></div>=
</blockquote><div>&nbsp;</div><div>The traffic source.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Stewart</div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D=
"auto"><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Thx</div><div dir=3D"au=
to">R.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Nov 17, 2017 04:18, "Mach Chen" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mach.chen@huawei.co=
m">mach.chen@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">





<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-4059884648803605259WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Hi Stewart,<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp=
;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Indeed, the s=
ame idea can apply to both MPLS-SR and MPLS-LDP. For now, the requirements t=
hat I heard are from MPLS-SR.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp=
;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Best regards=
,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Mach<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp=
;<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4=
.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0=
cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</=
span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> Stewart Bryant [mailto:=
<a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">stewart.bryant=
@gmail.<wbr>com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 17, 2017 10:45 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mach Chen; <a href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a>; Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vai=
nshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>=
accounting-for-sr-paths; Michael Gorokhovsky; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-s=
pring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@=
<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-sp=
ring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
br>
I would like to ask a fundamental question here.<br>
<br>
Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for MPLS-LDP a=
s well?<br>
<br>
If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a general MP=
LS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.<br>
<br>
At least some of the methods described here would work for both.<br>
<br>
Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are used, tha=
t only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot which I understand to b=
e the original goal.
<br>
<br>
- Stewart<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen w=
rote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Hi Stephane,=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">If you want t=
o do transit measurement, you have to pay some cost. The difference is how l=
arge the cost is, one, two or multiple labels.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">For E2E meas=
urement, it could be much easier. A single label (could be local or global) i=
s inserted immediately follow the last label of the SR
 path. Since there is only one label, the path label could be put into the s=
tack at the beginning, no matter whether the measurement is enable or not. W=
ith this, it will not affect the entropy.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Best regards=
,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Mach</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4=
.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0=
cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com" target=3D=
"_blank">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>=
accounting-for-sr-paths; Michael Gorokhovsky;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-sp=
ring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Hi,</span><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Yes today we=
 do not have any CLI command on any router to get paths statistics for LDP (=
I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P LSPs,
 so a transit node does not have the knowledge of the source. =46rom an oper=
ational point of&nbsp; view, what we do today is that we collect netflow sta=
tistics on core routers, we project the label stack onto the routing with an=
 external tool to get the Ingress to
 Egress LDP traffic including the mapping of the flows on the links.</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Now for RSVP=
, we do have such statistics as the LSP is P2P and has states on every node.=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Robert menti=
oned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS dataplane) has limited TE fe=
atures (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE without
 adding too much complexity).</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Thus, is it a=
 problem (transit node stats) worth to be solved ? If yes, where do we accep=
t to put the complexity ? For a stats issue I would rather
 prefer to move the complexity to an external tool that can do correlations o=
r whatever operations rather than getting it in the forwarding plane=E2=80=A6=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">IMO, that=E2=
=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cnice to have=E2=80=9D problem to solve getting that we do=
 not have this for LDP and we know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.</span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">However, Ing=
ress stats per SRTE LSP are for sure mandatory to get !
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">The main dra=
wback I see with the proposed solution is that it mimics what Entropy label d=
oes with a solution which is similar and at the same time
 cannot replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far from being suff=
icient (this is not the goal I know, but I was looking for potential use cas=
e optimizations). So in a network running entropy label and this mechanism, a=
 router will need to find the
 ELI/EL and hash, then find another special label to build the stats (maybe t=
omorrow there will be a third one to look at and a fourth one=E2=80=A6). Tha=
t starts to be a big overhead for the forwarding plane.
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Brgds,</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Stephane</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky; <a href=3D"=
mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-=
<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-sp=
ring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Folks,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This thread started and the requ=
irements reported clearly stated that all what we need is the ability to acc=
ount per path traffic on egress nodes.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Now out of the sudden I see requ=
irement popping up to be able to measure per path in transit nodes.<u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Well you can do it today with SR=
v6 if your hardware allows or you can do it with RSVP-TE.<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and add=
s ability for limited TE. But SR-MPLS never intended to become connection or=
iented protocol nor architecture.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">So I recommend we take a step ba=
ck here. Or if you like first go and fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per en=
d to end path accounting in transit nodes then come back here to ask for the=
 same in SR-MPLS. Not the other way
 around.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thx<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">r.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, "Alexande=
r Vainshtein" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=
=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Greg,</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">I concur wit=
h your position: let=E2=80=99s first &nbsp;of all agree that ability to meas=
ure traffic
 carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require OAM functio=
n for SR.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">I have looke=
d up the
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?i=
nclude_text=3D1" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.=
 </span>
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">The only tim=
e measurements are mentioned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementat=
ion-report-00" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.&nbsp;=
 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, and ar=
e always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevant, IM=
HO, for this discussion.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">I have added=
 the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Regards,</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Sasha</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Cell:&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></spa=
n><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Email:&nbsp;=
&nbsp;
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexan=
der.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;">
 mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpl=
s-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf=
.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">za=
li@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-sp=
ring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Dear All,<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I cannot imagine that operators w=
ill agree to deploy network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor perform=
ance and troubleshoot the network. True, some will
 brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even they will likely req=
uest that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their operational needs. I=
 see that this work clearly describes the problem and why ability to quantif=
y the flow behavior at internal
 nodes is important for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whe=
ther the case and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can con=
tinue to discussion of what measurement method to use.<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Greg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM=
, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxi=
aohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm=
 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">C=
oncur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my point of=
 view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we woul=
d have to make
 some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"> Xuxiaohu<br>
M</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-139=
10161692</a>
<br>
E</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">=
xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=
=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">-</span><=
span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=BD=91</span><span style=
=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=
=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0cm 0=
cm 0cm" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E5=8F=91=
=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E6=94=
=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt"=
>
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.c=
om</a>&gt;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-p=
aths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E4=B8=
=BB</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=
=93">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [sprin=
g] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-=
sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E6=97=B6=
=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:=
10</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"E=
N-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This draft breaks the SR archite=
cture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13"=
 target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13</=
a>, which states:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a f=
low through any topological path while maintaining per-flow state only at th=
e ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">In addition to creating states a=
t transit and egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and ma=
kes it unscalable. It also makes controller job much
 harder and error prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex and u=
nscalable.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0=
cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Gre=
g Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">greg=
imirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>"<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-p=
aths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-=
for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-tra=
ffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-=
traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
 "<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>" &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, "<=
a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>" &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt=
;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffi=
c-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Shraddha,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">thank=
 you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions=
 I'd like to discuss:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Have you thought of using not one special purpose label=
 for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but req=
uest two special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identif=
ier would not have to lose the
 bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">And how you envision to collect the counters along the p=
ath? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for t=
he particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd prop=
ose to use in-band mechanism,
 perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters o=
f the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<u><=
/u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">And the last, have you considered ability to flush coun=
ters per flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are=
 maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on th=
e node scope, you may have to turn
 off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I think that finer gr=
anularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhap=
s the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigg=
er release of counters.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Greg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
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</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">______________________________<wbr>_______________=
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To: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Cc: mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
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From: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi Mach

The hotspot avoidance idea woud seem to apply to both SR and reguar LDP 
since you can always manipulate the EL modify the ECMP split. If you had 
SR that would be more direct, but EL change would be applicable to 
legacy networks. Since instrumentation could be via IPFIX prettyy much 
any P-router can support this.

Stewart


On 17/11/2017 03:17, Mach Chen wrote:
>
> Hi Stewart,
>
> Indeed, the same idea can apply to both MPLS-SR and MPLS-LDP. For now, 
> the requirements that I heard are from MPLS-SR.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
> *From:*Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, November 17, 2017 10:45 AM
> *To:* Mach Chen; stephane.litkowski@orange.com; Robert Raszuk; 
> Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; Michael 
> Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
> I would like to ask a fundamental question here.
>
> Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for 
> MPLS-LDP as well?
>
> If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a 
> general MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.
>
> At least some of the methods described here would work for both.
>
> Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are 
> used, that only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot which I 
> understand to be the original goal.
>
> - Stewart
>
> On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen wrote:
>
>     Hi Stephane,
>
>     If you want to do transit measurement, you have to pay some cost.
>     The difference is how large the cost is, one, two or multiple labels.
>
>     For E2E measurement, it could be much easier. A single label
>     (could be local or global) is inserted immediately follow the last
>     label of the SR path. Since there is only one label, the path
>     label could be put into the stack at the beginning, no matter
>     whether the measurement is enable or not. With this, it will not
>     affect the entropy.
>
>     Best regards,
>
>     Mach
>
>     *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
>     *stephane.litkowski@orange.com <mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM
>     *To:* Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein
>     *Cc:* mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils;
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; Michael
>     Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali)
>     *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>     Hi,
>
>     Yes today we do not have any CLI command on any router to get
>     paths statistics for LDP (I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is
>     based on MP2P LSPs, so a transit node does not have the knowledge
>     of the source. From an operational point of  view, what we do
>     today is that we collect netflow statistics on core routers, we
>     project the label stack onto the routing with an external tool to
>     get the Ingress to Egress LDP traffic including the mapping of the
>     flows on the links.
>
>     Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as the LSP is P2P and has
>     states on every node.
>
>     Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS
>     dataplane) has limited TE features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP
>     does in SRTE without adding too much complexity).
>
>     Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats) worth to be solved ? If
>     yes, where do we accept to put the complexity ? For a stats issue
>     I would rather prefer to move the complexity to an external tool
>     that can do correlations or whatever operations rather than
>     getting it in the forwarding plane…
>
>     IMO, that’s a “nice to have” problem to solve getting that we do
>     not have this for LDP and we know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.
>
>     However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for sure mandatory to get !
>
>     The main drawback I see with the proposed solution is that it
>     mimics what Entropy label does with a solution which is similar
>     and at the same time cannot replace entropy label as the provided
>     entropy is far from being sufficient (this is not the goal I know,
>     but I was looking for potential use case optimizations). So in a
>     network running entropy label and this mechanism, a router will
>     need to find the ELI/EL and hash, then find another special label
>     to build the stats (maybe tomorrow there will be a third one to
>     look at and a fourth one…). That starts to be a big overhead for
>     the forwarding plane.
>
>     Brgds,
>
>     Stephane
>
>     *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Robert
>     Raszuk
>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23
>     *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
>     *Cc:* spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky;
>     draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>;
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; Zafar Ali (zali)
>     *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>     Folks,
>
>     This thread started and the requirements reported clearly stated
>     that all what we need is the ability to account per path traffic
>     on egress nodes.
>
>     Now out of the sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to
>     measure per path in transit nodes.
>
>     Well you can do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or you
>     can do it with RSVP-TE.
>
>     SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But
>     SR-MPLS never intended to become connection oriented protocol nor
>     architecture.
>
>     So I recommend we take a step back here. Or if you like first go
>     and fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to end path
>     accounting in transit nodes then come back here to ask for the
>     same in SR-MPLS. Not the other way around.
>
>     Thx
>
>     r.
>
>     On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein"
>     <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>     <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>> wrote:
>
>     Greg,
>
>     I concur with your position: let’s first  of all agree that
>     ability to measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific
>     transit node is a require OAM function for SR.
>
>     I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
>     <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_text=1>
>     draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
>     The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an
>     expired implementation report
>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-report-00>
>     draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are
>     in any case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end
>     (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for
>     this discussion.
>
>     I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Sasha
>
>     Office: +972-39266302 <tel:+972%203-926-6302>
>
>     Cell: +972-549266302 <tel:+972%2054-926-6302>
>
>     Email: Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>     <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
>
>     *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org
>     <mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
>     *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>>
>     *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>     <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>;
>     spring <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>; Zafar Ali
>     (zali) <zali@cisco.com <mailto:zali@cisco.com>>; mpls
>     <mpls@ietf.org <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>
>     *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>     Dear All,
>
>     I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that
>     lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot
>     the network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the early
>     adopters but even they will likely request that the OAM toolbox be
>     sufficient to support their operational needs. I see that this
>     work clearly describes the problem and why ability to quantify the
>     flow behavior at internal nodes is important for efficient network
>     operation. First let's discuss whether the case and requirement
>     towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to discussion
>     of what measurement method to use.
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Greg
>
>     On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com
>     <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>> wrote:
>
>         Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient
>         from my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first
>         priority object. Hence we would have to make some compromise.
>
>         Best regards,
>         Xiaohu
>
>
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>         徐小虎Xuxiaohu
>         M：+86-13910161692 <tel:+86-13910161692>
>         E：xuxiaohu@huawei.com <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
>         产品与解决方案-网络战略与业务发展部
>         Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
>         *发件人：***Zafar Ali (zali)
>
>         *收件人：***Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com
>         <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>         <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org
>         <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>;spring<spring@ietf.org
>         <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>
>
>         *主**题：***Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>         draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>         *时间：***2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>         Hi,
>
>         This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet
>         from abstract of SR Architecture document
>         https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13,
>         which states:
>
>         “SR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path
>         while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to
>         the SR domain.”
>
>         In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes,
>         the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it
>         unscalable. It also makes controller job much harder and error
>         prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex and
>         unscalable.
>
>         Thanks
>
>         Regards … Zafar
>
>         *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org
>         <mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Greg Mirsky
>         <gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>
>         *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
>         *To:
>         *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>         <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>"
>         <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>         <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>,
>         "mpls@ietf.org <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>" <mpls@ietf.org
>         <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>, "spring@ietf.org
>         <mailto:spring@ietf.org>" <spring@ietf.org
>         <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>
>         *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
>         draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>         Hi Shraddha,
>
>         thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I
>         have these questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>           * Have you thought of using not one special purpose label
>             for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source
>             SID cases but request two special purpose labels, one for
>             each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have to
>             lose the bit for C flag.
>           * And how you envision to collect the counters along the
>             path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all
>             counters or counters for the particular flow (SR Path
>             Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd propose to use
>             in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label,
>             to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with
>             the timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.
>           * And the last, have you considered ability to flush
>             counters per flow. In Scalability Considerations you've
>             stated that counters are maintained as long as collection
>             of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope,
>             you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off
>             some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per
>             flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again,
>             perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of
>             the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
>         Regards,
>
>         Greg
>
>
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    <p>Hi Mach</p>
    <p>The hotspot avoidance idea woud seem to apply to both SR and
      reguar LDP since you can always manipulate the EL modify the ECMP
      split. If you had SR that would be more direct, but EL change
      would be applicable to legacy networks. Since instrumentation
      could be via IPFIX prettyy much any P-router can support this.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Stewart<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 17/11/2017 03:17, Mach Chen wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Hi Stewart,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Indeed, the same idea can apply to both MPLS-SR
            and MPLS-LDP. For now, the requirements that I heard are
            from MPLS-SR.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Mach<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm
          0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                    lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="EN-US"> Stewart Bryant
                  [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com">mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>]
                  <br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 17, 2017 10:45 AM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> Mach Chen; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a>;
                  Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein<br>
                  <b>Cc:</b> mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils;
                  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths;
                  Michael Gorokhovsky;
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali
                  (zali)<br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose
                  labels in
                  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
              lang="EN-US"><br>
              I would like to ask a fundamental question here.<br>
              <br>
              Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we
              need it for MPLS-LDP as well?<br>
              <br>
              If we need it for both, then we need to have this
              discussion in a general MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR
              specific context.<br>
              <br>
              At least some of the methods described here would work for
              both.<br>
              <br>
              Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal
              paths are used, that only tells us the approximate path,
              not the hotspot which I understand to be the original
              goal.
              <br>
              <br>
              - Stewart<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On 16/11/2017 14:46,
                Mach Chen wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Hi Stephane,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">If you want to do transit measurement, you
                have to pay some cost. The difference is how large the
                cost is, one, two or multiple labels.</span><span
                lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">For E2E measurement, it could be much
                easier. A single label (could be local or global) is
                inserted immediately follow the last label of the SR
                path. Since there is only one label, the path label
                could be put into the stack at the beginning, no matter
                whether the measurement is enable or not. With this, it
                will not affect the entropy.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Best regards,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Mach</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
              1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
              <div>
                <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
                  1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                        lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                      lang="EN-US"> mpls [<a
                        href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                      <b>On Behalf Of </b><a
                        href="mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a><br>
                      <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM<br>
                      <b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein<br>
                      <b>Cc:</b> mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils;
                      draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths;
                      Michael Gorokhovsky;
                      <a
                        href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org</a>;
                      Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
                      <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special
                      purpose labels in
                      draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                      lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US">Hi,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US">Yes today we do not have any CLI command
                  on any router to get paths statistics for LDP (I mean
                  Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P LSPs, so a
                  transit node does not have the knowledge of the
                  source. From an operational point of  view, what we do
                  today is that we collect netflow statistics on core
                  routers, we project the label stack onto the routing
                  with an external tool to get the Ingress to Egress LDP
                  traffic including the mapping of the flows on the
                  links.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US">Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics
                  as the LSP is P2P and has states on every node.</span><span
                  lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US">Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE
                  (especially with MPLS dataplane) has limited TE
                  features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE
                  without adding too much complexity).</span><span
                  lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US">Thus, is it a problem (transit node
                  stats) worth to be solved ? If yes, where do we accept
                  to put the complexity ? For a stats issue I would
                  rather prefer to move the complexity to an external
                  tool that can do correlations or whatever operations
                  rather than getting it in the forwarding plane…</span><span
                  lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US">IMO, that’s a “nice to have” problem to
                  solve getting that we do not have this for LDP and we
                  know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.</span><span
                  lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US">However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are
                  for sure mandatory to get !
                </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US">The main drawback I see with the proposed
                  solution is that it mimics what Entropy label does
                  with a solution which is similar and at the same time
                  cannot replace entropy label as the provided entropy
                  is far from being sufficient (this is not the goal I
                  know, but I was looking for potential use case
                  optimizations). So in a network running entropy label
                  and this mechanism, a router will need to find the
                  ELI/EL and hash, then find another special label to
                  build the stats (maybe tomorrow there will be a third
                  one to look at and a fourth one…). That starts to be a
                  big overhead for the forwarding plane.
                </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US">Brgds,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US">Stephane</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                    lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="EN-US"> mpls [<a
                    href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                    moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                  <b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23<br>
                  <b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
                  <b>Cc:</b> spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael
                  Gorokhovsky; <a
                    href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org"
                    moz-do-not-send="true">
                    draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org</a>;
                  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths;
                  Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose
                  labels in
                  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                  lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Folks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">This thread
                        started and the requirements reported clearly
                        stated that all what we need is the ability to
                        account per path traffic on egress nodes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Now out of
                        the sudden I see requirement popping up to be
                        able to measure per path in transit nodes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Well you can
                        do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or
                        you can do it with RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">SR-MPLS is
                        replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE.
                        But SR-MPLS never intended to become connection
                        oriented protocol nor architecture.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">So I
                        recommend we take a step back here. Or if you
                        like first go and fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to
                        allow per end to end path accounting in transit
                        nodes then come back here to ask for the same in
                        SR-MPLS. Not the other way around.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thx<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">r.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On Nov 16,
                          2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein" &lt;<a
                            href="mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com"
                            moz-do-not-send="true">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;
                          wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US">Greg,</span><span
                              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US">I concur with your position:
                              let’s first  of all agree that ability to
                              measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in
                              a specific transit node is a require OAM
                              function for SR.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US">I have looked up the
                              <a
href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_text=1"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
                                SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did
                              not find any relevant use cases there. </span>
                            <span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US">The only time measurements
                              are mentioned is a reference to an
                              <a
href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-report-00"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
                                expired implementation report</a> draft
                              discussing delay measurements.  Since
                              delay measurements are in any case based
                              on synthetic traffic, and are always
                              end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this
                              reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this
                              discussion.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US">I have added the authors of
                              the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><span
                              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US">Regards,</span><span
                              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US">Sasha</span><span
                              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US">Office:
                              <a href="tel:+972%203-926-6302"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+972-39266302</a></span><span
                              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US">Cell:     
                              <a href="tel:+972%2054-926-6302"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+972-549266302</a></span><span
                              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US">Email:  
                              <a
                                href="mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a></span><span
                              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                                lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                              lang="EN-US"> mpls [mailto:<a
                                href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                              <b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
                              <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017
                              4:28 AM<br>
                              <b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a
                                href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
                              <b>Cc:</b>
                              draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
                              &lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
                              spring &lt;<a
                                href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
                              Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a
                                href="mailto:zali@cisco.com"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;
                              mpls &lt;<a href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                              <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring]
                              Special purpose labels in
                              draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                  lang="EN-US">Dear All,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                    lang="EN-US">I cannot imagine that
                                    operators will agree to deploy
                                    network that lacks critical OAM
                                    tools to monitor performance and
                                    troubleshoot the network. True, some
                                    will brave the challenge and be the
                                    early adopters but even they will
                                    likely request that the OAM toolbox
                                    be sufficient to support their
                                    operational needs. I see that this
                                    work clearly describes the problem
                                    and why ability to quantify the flow
                                    behavior at internal nodes is
                                    important for efficient network
                                    operation. First let's discuss
                                    whether the case and requirement
                                    towards OAM is real and valid. Then
                                    we can continue to discussion of
                                    what measurement method to use.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                    lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                    lang="EN-US">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                    lang="EN-US">Greg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                  lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                    lang="EN-US">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at
                                    10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a
                                      href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                                      target="_blank"
                                      moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;
                                    wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                <blockquote
                                  style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                  #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                  <div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                                          lang="EN-US">Concur. Although
                                          it has some values, it's not
                                          cost-efficient from my point
                                          of view. Network simplicity
                                          should be the first priority
                                          object. Hence we would have to
                                          make some compromise.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          Best regards,<br>
                                          Xiaohu <br>
                                          <br>
                                          <br>
                                          <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                      <div class="MsoNormal"
                                        style="text-align:center"
                                        align="center"><span
                                          lang="EN-US">
                                          <hr size="2" align="center"
                                            width="100%">
                                        </span></div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                                          style="font-family:&quot;MS
                                          Gothic&quot;">徐小虎</span><span
                                          lang="EN-US"> Xuxiaohu<br>
                                          M</span><span
                                          style="font-family:&quot;MS
                                          Gothic&quot;">：</span><span
                                          lang="EN-US"><a
                                            href="tel:+86-13910161692"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">+86-13910161692</a>
                                          <br>
                                          E</span><span
                                          style="font-family:&quot;MS
                                          Gothic&quot;">：</span><span
                                          lang="EN-US"><a
                                            href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
                                        </span><span
                                          style="font-family:宋体">产品与解决方案</span><span
                                          lang="EN-US">-</span><span
                                          style="font-family:&quot;MS
                                          Gothic&quot;">网</span><span
                                          style="font-family:宋体">络战略与业务发展部</span><span
                                          lang="EN-US"><br>
                                          Products &amp;
                                          Solutions-Network Strategy
                                          &amp; Business Development
                                          Dept<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div
                                      style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                      #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0cm
                                      0cm 0cm"
                                      name="AnyOffice-Background-Image">
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:宋体">发件人：</span></b><b><span
                                              style="font-size:10.5pt">
                                            </span></b><span
                                            style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                            lang="EN-US">Zafar Ali
                                            (zali)</span><span
                                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">收件人：</span></b><b><span
                                              style="font-size:10.5pt">
                                            </span></b><span
                                            style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                            lang="EN-US">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a
href="mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target="_blank"
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                              target="_blank"
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a
href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a
href="mailto:spring@ietf.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><span
                                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">主</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:宋体">题：</span></b><b><span
                                              style="font-size:10.5pt">
                                            </span></b><span
                                            style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                            lang="EN-US">Re: [mpls]
                                            [spring] Special purpose
                                            labels in
                                            draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:宋体">时间：</span></b><b><span
                                              style="font-size:10.5pt">
                                            </span></b><span
                                            style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                            lang="EN-US">2017-11-16
                                            02:24:10</span><span
                                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                      </div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><span
                                          style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                          lang="EN-US"> </span><span
                                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US">Hi,
                                                <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US">This draft
                                                breaks the SR
                                                architecture. I am
                                                quoting a snippet from
                                                abstract of SR
                                                Architecture document
                                                <a
                                                  href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>,
                                                which states:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US">“SR allows
                                                to enforce a flow
                                                through any topological
                                                path while maintaining
                                                per-flow state only at
                                                the ingress nodes to the
                                                SR domain.”
                                                <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US">In addition
                                                to creating states at
                                                transit and egress
                                                nodes, the procedure
                                                also affects the data
                                                plane and makes it
                                                unscalable. It also
                                                makes controller job
                                                much harder and error
                                                prune. In summary, I
                                                find the procedure very
                                                complex and unscalable.
                                                <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                  lang="EN-US">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                  lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                  lang="EN-US">Regards …
                                                  Zafar
                                                  <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            </div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <div
                                              style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                              #B5C4DF
                                              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm
                                              0cm 0cm">
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
                                                    lang="EN-US">From:
                                                  </span></b><span
                                                  lang="EN-US">spring
                                                  &lt;<a
                                                    href="mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org"
                                                    target="_blank"
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                                                  on behalf of Greg
                                                  Mirsky &lt;<a
                                                    href="mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com"
                                                    target="_blank"
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                                  <b>Date: </b>Wednesday,
                                                  November 15, 2017 at
                                                  11:10 AM<br>
                                                  <b>To: </b>"<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                                    target="_blank"
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>"
                                                  &lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                                    target="_blank"
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
                                                  "<a
                                                    href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                                                    target="_blank"
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>"
                                                  &lt;<a
                                                    href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                                                    target="_blank"
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
                                                  "<a
                                                    href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
                                                    target="_blank"
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>"
                                                  &lt;<a
                                                    href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
                                                    target="_blank"
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                                                  <b>Subject: </b>[spring]
                                                  Special purpose labels
                                                  in
                                                  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                  lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                  lang="EN-US">Hi </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt" lang="EN-US">Shraddha,</span><span lang="EN-US">
                                                  <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt" lang="EN-US">thank you for very well written
                                                    and thought through
                                                    draft. I have these
                                                    questions I'd like
                                                    to discuss:</span><span
                                                    lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <ul type="disc">
                                                  <li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
                                                    level1 lfo3">
                                                    <span lang="EN-US">Have
                                                      you thought of
                                                      using not one
                                                      special purpose
                                                      label for both SR
                                                      Path Identifier
                                                      and SR Path
                                                      Identifier+Source
                                                      SID cases but
                                                      request two
                                                      special purpose
                                                      labels, one for
                                                      each case. Then
                                                      the SR Path
                                                      Identifier would
                                                      not have to lose
                                                      the bit for C
                                                      flag.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
                                                  <li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
                                                    level1 lfo3">
                                                    <span lang="EN-US">And
                                                      how you envision
                                                      to collect the
                                                      counters along the
                                                      path? Of course, a
                                                      Controller may
                                                      query LSR for all
                                                      counters or
                                                      counters for the
                                                      particular flow
                                                      (SR Path
                                                      Identifier+Source
                                                      SID). But in
                                                      addition I'd
                                                      propose to use
                                                      in-band mechanism,
                                                      perhaps another
                                                      special purpose
                                                      label, to trigger
                                                      the LSR to send
                                                      counters of the
                                                      same flow with the
                                                      timestamp out-band
                                                      to the predefined
                                                      Collector.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
                                                  <li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
                                                    level1 lfo3">
                                                    <span lang="EN-US">And
                                                      the last, have you
                                                      considered ability
                                                      to flush counters
                                                      per flow. In
                                                      Scalability
                                                      Considerations
                                                      you've stated that
                                                      counters are
                                                      maintained as long
                                                      as collection of
                                                      statistics is
                                                      enabled. If that
                                                      is on the node
                                                      scope, you may
                                                      have to turn
                                                      off/on the
                                                      collection to
                                                      flush off some old
                                                      counters. I think
                                                      that finer
                                                      granularity, per
                                                      flow granularity
                                                      would be useful
                                                      for operators.
                                                      Again, perhaps the
                                                      flow itself may be
                                                      used to signal the
                                                      end of the
                                                      measurement and
                                                      trigger release of
                                                      counters.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
                                                </ul>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                    style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                      lang="EN-US">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                    lang="EN-US">Greg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                              </div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                  lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
___________________________________________________________________________<br>
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                      </div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                          lang="EN-US"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
                          mpls mailing list<br>
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                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
              <pre><span lang="EN-US">_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:宋体"
                lang="EN-US"><br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <pre><span lang="EN-US">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="EN-US">mpls mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="EN-US"><a href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="EN-US"><a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:宋体" lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        </div>
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From nobody Mon Nov 20 15:36:39 2017
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From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
CC: "'spring'" <spring@ietf.org>, "'mpls'" <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 23:36:28 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 23:40:13 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 16:03:53 -0800
Message-ID: <CA+RyBmXJev9x0MRh+XA9RrsBKizJPpCEMVPTEZc6aVVxAYJOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Cc: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ChGnTp23mkdxYh7yvPwTkByVRW4>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi Zafar,
I don't see how managing, using passive OAM, i.e. counting fly-by packets,
at transient SR-MPLS nodes can be equated to breaking "no-forwarding state
at transient LSR" model.I believe that practical is as important as
aesthetic and that network cannot be operated without comprehensive OAM
tool box. Of course, every tool in the box is optional and will not be
deployed unless the need arises. If we agree on that, perhaps we can
discuss new requirement to be added to the SR OAM Requirements document.
And then, then consider how to address such requirement. I believe that two
options were mentioned in the thread:

   - described in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
   special purpose label (actually it may end up be extended special purpos=
e
   label) and up to two labels;
   - use GAL and ACH (perhaps somewhat similar to approach used in RFC
   8169).

Regards,
Greg


On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 3:36 PM, Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Adrian,
>
> Some comments are provided in-line.
>
> Please note that, we all want to let this lingering tread die and
> follow-up on the next steps noted during this email exchange. I will be
> happy to have a webEx call and discuss it further, offline.
>
> Thanks
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
> On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>     >>> procedure (in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths)
> that breaks SR
>     >>> Architecture, highly unscalable and complicated to implement.
>     >>
>     >> [JD]  Do you have any evidence to justify any of your assertions,
> above?
>     >
>     > Please note that in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths:
>     >
>     > =E2=80=A2    The transit node needs to be able to recognize the spe=
cial
> label, read
>     >        the SR Path Identification label and update the counter
> against such
>     >        =E2=80=9Cstates=E2=80=9D.
>
> >    Possibly worth noting that existing devices are capable of
> maintaining many counters and updating them at line speed.
>
> >    Several people have noted that ipfix is a process used for accountin=
g
> in networks. That approach may have to find the bottom of stack and then
> match the packet that follows.
>
> >    Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve finding the bottom of stack
> and hashing on the header of the payload.
>
> >    Some hardware cannot perform either mechanism. This usually results
> from a trade between low cost, high performance, and features. Generally
> you can't have all three.
>
> The question is not about if the hardware is able to perform such
> operations but regarding breaking the very beauty of SR =E2=80=93 no stat=
es at the
> transit/ egress nodes. In the context of label stack size explosion, the
> draft also talks about needs to break an SR Path into sub-paths =E2=80=93=
 thereby
> creating yet additional states in the network for accounting reasons (see
> more detail on this in the following). Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed f=
or
> SDN =E2=80=93 the architecture calls for simplification of the network no=
t adding
> complexity in the network fabric. Please also note that a network may hav=
e
> a large number of SR Path, thereby creating another dimension for scaling
> limitations.
>
> The proposed procedure also does not work for node protection in the
> network. The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to implement procedure
> proposed in the document; I am quoting from the draft.
>
> =E2=80=9CWhen using extensions
>    described in this document for traffic accounting and with node-
>    protection enabled in the network, it is RECOMMENDED to make sure all
>    the nodes in the network support the extension.=E2=80=9D
>
> <snip>
>
>     > =E2=80=A2    The draft proposes to push (up to) 3 Labels for each s=
egment in
> the SR
>     >        Path. That means that label stack is increased up to 3x
> times! This is a
>     >        serious a scaling issue.
>
> >    John asked for evidence and you provided a misunderstanding or
> misreading of our draft.
> >    The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels per SR Path (noting as
> John did, that this is our own term).
> >    That is not what you say, so perhaps you could retract or provide a
> pointer to the text.
>
> >    Thus, "increased up to 3x times" applies only with the single case
> where the imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the three label
> option is applied. So, while  what you say is true, it is clearly (and
> wilfully?) exaggerating the severity of impact, and it is doubtful that
> 4-label stack is actually a problem.
>
> There are many scenarios that will require SR-Path-Stats Labels (up to 3
> labels) to be present multiple times in the label stack. These scenarios
> are not uncommon. The following scenarios as noted in the draft.
>
>   =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes
>    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.  The
>    SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multiple times in the label stack
>    of a packet.=E2=80=9D
>
>  =E2=80=9CIt is possible to partially deploy this feature when not all th=
e
>    nodes in the network support the extensions defined in this document.
>    In such scenarios, the special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top
>    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>    defined in this document.  This may require multiple blocks of SR-
>    Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the packet header.=E2=80=9D
>
> > =E2=80=A2    The controller needs to keep track of transit node capabil=
ity and
>     >       push the additional per-path labels, accordingly. I.e., the
> controller
>     >       also needs to maintain such information for the transit nodes=
.
>
> >    In most cases, the controller/ingress only needs to care about the
> capabilities of the egress nodes. That is, if the special purpose label
> reaches the top of the stack it has to be able to handle it.
>
> >    The only time when the transit node issue arises is when there is a
> small RLD. That information may need to be known by the controller to
> enable correct ECMP behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.
> >    If there is a desire to enable accounting at transit nodes with a
> small RLD then the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and *that*
> means that the controller has to be sensitive as to where in the network
> the special purpose label will rise to the top of the stack.
>
> >    It seems to me that:
> >    - Controllers are not particularly resource constrained: adding a
> flag per node
> >       (or even per link!) would not break any scaling behavior.
> >    - Adding another flag to the IGP alongside the RLD is not significan=
t
> scaling issue.
>
> The comment here was not so much related to scaling but was for adding
> complexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you noted above and in the
> draft, controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the following cases
> every time a path needs to be computed (quoting some of the cases from th=
e
> draft).
>
> =E2=80=9CWhen the head-end node
>    inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the label stack, the place in the
>    stack is decided based on whether the node where the special label
>    gets exposed is capable of popping those labels.=E2=80=9D
>
>
> =E2=80=9CWhile inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the head-end router MU=
ST
>    ensure that the labels are not exposed to the nodes that do not
>    support them. =E2=80=9C
>
> =E2=80=9CBecause it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats labels are remove=
d
>    when they are found at the top of the label stack, the node imposing
>    the label stack (the ingress) must know which nodes are capable of
>    stripping the labels.=E2=80=9D
>
> In RLDC limitation cases, =E2=80=9CTo support traffic
>    accounting in such cases it is necessary to insert the SR-Path-Stats
>    Labels within the Readable Label Stack Depth Capability (RLDC) of the
>    nodes in the SR path.=E2=80=9D
>
> =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes
>    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.=E2=80=
=9D
>
> =E2=80=9CThe special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top
>    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>    defined in this document.=E2=80=9D
>
> =E2=80=9CIf the egress has not indicated that it is capable of removing t=
he
>    SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT be placed at the bottom of
>    the label stack.  In this case the SR-Path-Stats Labels SHOULD be
>    placed at a point in the label stack such that they will be found at
>    the top of stack by the latest node in the SR path that is capable of
>    removing them. =E2=80=9C
>
> =E2=80=9CSR paths may require large label stacks.  Some hardware platform=
s do
>    not support creating such large label stacks (i.e., imposing a large
>    number of labels at once).  To overcome this limitation sub-paths are
>    created within the network, and Binding-SIDs are allocated to these
>    sub-paths.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 which means controller/ ingress software=
 need to also
> create/ install sub-paths.
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Zafar,<div>I don&#39;t see how managing, using passive =
OAM, i.e. counting fly-by packets, at transient SR-MPLS nodes can be equate=
d to breaking &quot;no-forwarding state at transient LSR&quot; model.I beli=
eve that practical is as important as aesthetic and that network cannot be =
operated without comprehensive OAM tool box. Of course, every tool in the b=
ox is optional and will not be deployed unless the need arises. If we agree=
 on that, perhaps we can discuss new requirement to be added to the SR OAM =
Requirements document. And then, then consider how to address such requirem=
ent. I believe that two options were mentioned in the thread:</div><div><ul=
><li>described in=C2=A0draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths s=
pecial purpose label (actually it may end up be extended special purpose la=
bel) and up to two labels;</li><li>use GAL and ACH (perhaps somewhat simila=
r to approach used in RFC 8169).</li></ul><div>Regards,</div></div><div>Gre=
g</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote">On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 3:36 PM, Zafar Ali (zali) <span dir=3D"l=
tr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com<=
/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Adrian,<br>
<br>
Some comments are provided in-line.<br>
<br>
Please note that, we all want to let this lingering tread die and follow-up=
 on the next steps noted during this email exchange. I will be happy to hav=
e a webEx call and discuss it further, offline.<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar<br>
<br>
On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, &quot;Adrian Farrel&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adria=
n@olddog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&lt;snip&gt;<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; procedure (in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>ac=
counting-for-sr-paths) that breaks SR<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; Architecture, highly unscalable and complicated =
to implement.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; [JD]=C2=A0 Do you have any evidence to justify any o=
f your assertions, above?<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Please note that in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The transit node needs to be able=
 to recognize the special label, read<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the SR Path Identification la=
bel and update the counter against such<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cstates=E2=80=9D.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Possibly worth noting that existing devices are capable o=
f maintaining many counters and updating them at line speed.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Several people have noted that ipfix is a process used fo=
r accounting in networks. That approach may have to find the bottom of stac=
k and then match the packet that follows.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve finding the bott=
om of stack and hashing on the header of the payload.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Some hardware cannot perform either mechanism. This usual=
ly results from a trade between low cost, high performance, and features. G=
enerally you can&#39;t have all three.<br>
<br>
</span>The question is not about if the hardware is able to perform such op=
erations but regarding breaking the very beauty of SR =E2=80=93 no states a=
t the transit/ egress nodes. In the context of label stack size explosion, =
the draft also talks about needs to break an SR Path into sub-paths =E2=80=
=93 thereby creating yet additional states in the network for accounting re=
asons (see more detail on this in the following). Furthermore, SR-MPLS is d=
esigned for SDN =E2=80=93 the architecture calls for simplification of the =
network not adding complexity in the network fabric. Please also note that =
a network may have a large number of SR Path, thereby creating another dime=
nsion for scaling limitations.<br>
<br>
The proposed procedure also does not work for node protection in the networ=
k. The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to implement procedure propose=
d in the document; I am quoting from the draft.<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CWhen using extensions<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0described in this document for traffic accounting and with nod=
e-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0protection enabled in the network, it is RECOMMENDED to make s=
ure all<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the nodes in the network support the extension.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
&lt;snip&gt;<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The draft proposes to push (up to=
) 3 Labels for each segment in the SR<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Path. That means that label s=
tack is increased up to 3x times! This is a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 serious a scaling issue.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 John asked for evidence and you provided a misunderstandi=
ng or misreading of our draft.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels per SR Path (n=
oting as John did, that this is our own term).<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 That is not what you say, so perhaps you could retract or=
 provide a pointer to the text.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thus, &quot;increased up to 3x times&quot; applies only w=
ith the single case where the imposed label stack has exactly one label *an=
d* the three label option is applied. So, while=C2=A0 what you say is true,=
 it is clearly (and wilfully?) exaggerating the severity of impact, and it =
is doubtful that=C2=A0 4-label stack is actually a problem.<br>
<br>
</span>There are many scenarios that will require SR-Path-Stats Labels (up =
to 3 labels) to be present multiple times in the label stack. These scenari=
os are not uncommon. The following scenarios as noted in the draft.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the =
nodes<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accountin=
g.=C2=A0 The<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multiple times in the labe=
l stack<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of a packet.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
=C2=A0=E2=80=9CIt is possible to partially deploy this feature when not all=
 the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0nodes in the network support the extensions defined in this do=
cument.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0In such scenarios, the special labels MUST NOT get exposed on =
the top<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensi=
ons<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0defined in this document.=C2=A0 This may require multiple bloc=
ks of SR-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the packet header.=E2=80=
=9D<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The controller needs to keep track of transit n=
ode capability and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0push the additional per-path l=
abels, accordingly. I.e., the controller<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0also needs to maintain such in=
formation for the transit nodes.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In most cases, the controller/ingress only needs to care =
about the capabilities of the egress nodes. That is, if the special purpose=
 label reaches the top of the stack it has to be able to handle it.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The only time when the transit node issue arises is when =
there is a small RLD. That information may need to be known by the controll=
er to enable correct ECMP behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If there is a desire to enable accounting at transit node=
s with a small RLD then the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and=
 *that* means that the controller has to be sensitive as to where in the ne=
twork the special purpose label will rise to the top of the stack.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 It seems to me that:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Controllers are not particularly resource constrained: =
adding a flag per node<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(or even per link!) would not break any scal=
ing behavior.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Adding another flag to the IGP alongside the RLD is not=
 significant scaling issue.<br>
<br>
</span>The comment here was not so much related to scaling but was for addi=
ng complexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you noted above and in th=
e draft, controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the following cases =
every time a path needs to be computed (quoting some of the cases from the =
draft).<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CWhen the head-end node<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the label stack, the place=
 in the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0stack is decided based on whether the node where the special l=
abel<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0gets exposed is capable of popping those labels.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CWhile inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the head-end router MUST=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0ensure that the labels are not exposed to the nodes that do no=
t<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0support them. =E2=80=9C<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CBecause it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats labels are removed<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0when they are found at the top of the label stack, the node im=
posing<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the label stack (the ingress) must know which nodes are capabl=
e of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0stripping the labels.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
In RLDC limitation cases, =E2=80=9CTo support traffic<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0accounting in such cases it is necessary to insert the SR-Path=
-Stats<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Labels within the Readable Label Stack Depth Capability (RLDC)=
 of the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0nodes in the SR path.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the =
nodes<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accountin=
g.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CThe special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensi=
ons<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0defined in this document.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CIf the egress has not indicated that it is capable of removing the=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT be placed at the bott=
om of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the label stack.=C2=A0 In this case the SR-Path-Stats Labels S=
HOULD be<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0placed at a point in the label stack such that they will be fo=
und at<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the top of stack by the latest node in the SR path that is cap=
able of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0removing them. =E2=80=9C<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CSR paths may require large label stacks.=C2=A0 Some hardware platf=
orms do<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0not support creating such large label stacks (i.e., imposing a=
 large<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0number of labels at once).=C2=A0 To overcome this limitation s=
ub-paths are<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0created within the network, and Binding-SIDs are allocated to =
these<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0sub-paths.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 which means controller/ ingress =
software need to also create/ install sub-paths.<br>
<br>
&lt;snip&gt;<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

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From nobody Mon Nov 20 19:07:29 2017
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From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 03:06:50 +0000
Message-ID: <F0C75C66-6CAB-4FAF-B0D1-4F9A3E8CE1AB@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 19:53:20 -0800
Message-ID: <CA+RyBmWw4wuiJAs57+KaSLWTAkH4DVG+3RHPkq9aEVLAfjVGQA@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Cc: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/Fm3rxWw1tuGQuFqwqhCSLcr24uM>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi Zafar,
"overloading existing special label"? AFAIK, MPLS WG created Extended
Special Label exactly for cases like we're discussing.
Of course, alternative proposal for SR-MPLS use case will be most helpful.
As description of GAL-ACH based proposal. Stay tuned.

Regards,
Greg

On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 7:06 PM, Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Greg,
>
>
>
> Overloading existing special label, optimizing stack overheads in
> draft-hegde, etc. will not change the architectural direction of the
> proposal.
>
>
>
> I feel additional discussion on this thread will be non-productive. Marti=
n
> Horneffer, Robert Raszuk, Stephane Litkowski and others have shared from
> their operation experiences; their input cannot be ignored by the vendors=
.
> They and others have outlined some alternatives. We need to follow-up on
> additional documentation (on the alternatives including existing counters=
)
> to help us converge. Please stay tuned.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Monday, November 20, 2017 at 7:03 PM
> *To: *"Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
> *Cc: *"adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "mpls@ietf.org" <
> mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Zafar,
>
> I don't see how managing, using passive OAM, i.e. counting fly-by packets=
,
> at transient SR-MPLS nodes can be equated to breaking "no-forwarding stat=
e
> at transient LSR" model.I believe that practical is as important as
> aesthetic and that network cannot be operated without comprehensive OAM
> tool box. Of course, every tool in the box is optional and will not be
> deployed unless the need arises. If we agree on that, perhaps we can
> discuss new requirement to be added to the SR OAM Requirements document.
> And then, then consider how to address such requirement. I believe that t=
wo
> options were mentioned in the thread:
>
>    - described in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>    special purpose label (actually it may end up be extended special purp=
ose
>    label) and up to two labels;
>    - use GAL and ACH (perhaps somewhat similar to approach used in RFC
>    8169).
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 3:36 PM, Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Adrian,
>
> Some comments are provided in-line.
>
> Please note that, we all want to let this lingering tread die and
> follow-up on the next steps noted during this email exchange. I will be
> happy to have a webEx call and discuss it further, offline.
>
> Thanks
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
> On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>     >>> procedure (in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths)
> that breaks SR
>     >>> Architecture, highly unscalable and complicated to implement.
>     >>
>     >> [JD]  Do you have any evidence to justify any of your assertions,
> above?
>     >
>     > Please note that in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths:
>     >
>     > =E2=80=A2    The transit node needs to be able to recognize the spe=
cial
> label, read
>     >        the SR Path Identification label and update the counter
> against such
>     >        =E2=80=9Cstates=E2=80=9D.
>
> >    Possibly worth noting that existing devices are capable of
> maintaining many counters and updating them at line speed.
>
> >    Several people have noted that ipfix is a process used for accountin=
g
> in networks. That approach may have to find the bottom of stack and then
> match the packet that follows.
>
> >    Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve finding the bottom of stack
> and hashing on the header of the payload.
>
> >    Some hardware cannot perform either mechanism. This usually results
> from a trade between low cost, high performance, and features. Generally
> you can't have all three.
>
> The question is not about if the hardware is able to perform such
> operations but regarding breaking the very beauty of SR =E2=80=93 no stat=
es at the
> transit/ egress nodes. In the context of label stack size explosion, the
> draft also talks about needs to break an SR Path into sub-paths =E2=80=93=
 thereby
> creating yet additional states in the network for accounting reasons (see
> more detail on this in the following). Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed f=
or
> SDN =E2=80=93 the architecture calls for simplification of the network no=
t adding
> complexity in the network fabric. Please also note that a network may hav=
e
> a large number of SR Path, thereby creating another dimension for scaling
> limitations.
>
> The proposed procedure also does not work for node protection in the
> network. The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to implement procedure
> proposed in the document; I am quoting from the draft.
>
> =E2=80=9CWhen using extensions
>    described in this document for traffic accounting and with node-
>    protection enabled in the network, it is RECOMMENDED to make sure all
>    the nodes in the network support the extension.=E2=80=9D
>
> <snip>
>
>     > =E2=80=A2    The draft proposes to push (up to) 3 Labels for each s=
egment in
> the SR
>     >        Path. That means that label stack is increased up to 3x
> times! This is a
>     >        serious a scaling issue.
>
> >    John asked for evidence and you provided a misunderstanding or
> misreading of our draft.
> >    The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels per SR Path (noting as
> John did, that this is our own term).
> >    That is not what you say, so perhaps you could retract or provide a
> pointer to the text.
>
> >    Thus, "increased up to 3x times" applies only with the single case
> where the imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the three label
> option is applied. So, while  what you say is true, it is clearly (and
> wilfully?) exaggerating the severity of impact, and it is doubtful that
> 4-label stack is actually a problem.
>
> There are many scenarios that will require SR-Path-Stats Labels (up to 3
> labels) to be present multiple times in the label stack. These scenarios
> are not uncommon. The following scenarios as noted in the draft.
>
>   =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes
>    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.  The
>    SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multiple times in the label stack
>    of a packet.=E2=80=9D
>
>  =E2=80=9CIt is possible to partially deploy this feature when not all th=
e
>    nodes in the network support the extensions defined in this document.
>    In such scenarios, the special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top
>    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>    defined in this document.  This may require multiple blocks of SR-
>    Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the packet header.=E2=80=9D
>
> > =E2=80=A2    The controller needs to keep track of transit node capabil=
ity and
>     >       push the additional per-path labels, accordingly. I.e., the
> controller
>     >       also needs to maintain such information for the transit nodes=
.
>
> >    In most cases, the controller/ingress only needs to care about the
> capabilities of the egress nodes. That is, if the special purpose label
> reaches the top of the stack it has to be able to handle it.
>
> >    The only time when the transit node issue arises is when there is a
> small RLD. That information may need to be known by the controller to
> enable correct ECMP behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.
> >    If there is a desire to enable accounting at transit nodes with a
> small RLD then the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and *that*
> means that the controller has to be sensitive as to where in the network
> the special purpose label will rise to the top of the stack.
>
> >    It seems to me that:
> >    - Controllers are not particularly resource constrained: adding a
> flag per node
> >       (or even per link!) would not break any scaling behavior.
> >    - Adding another flag to the IGP alongside the RLD is not significan=
t
> scaling issue.
>
> The comment here was not so much related to scaling but was for adding
> complexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you noted above and in the
> draft, controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the following cases
> every time a path needs to be computed (quoting some of the cases from th=
e
> draft).
>
> =E2=80=9CWhen the head-end node
>    inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the label stack, the place in the
>    stack is decided based on whether the node where the special label
>    gets exposed is capable of popping those labels.=E2=80=9D
>
>
> =E2=80=9CWhile inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the head-end router MU=
ST
>    ensure that the labels are not exposed to the nodes that do not
>    support them. =E2=80=9C
>
> =E2=80=9CBecause it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats labels are remove=
d
>    when they are found at the top of the label stack, the node imposing
>    the label stack (the ingress) must know which nodes are capable of
>    stripping the labels.=E2=80=9D
>
> In RLDC limitation cases, =E2=80=9CTo support traffic
>    accounting in such cases it is necessary to insert the SR-Path-Stats
>    Labels within the Readable Label Stack Depth Capability (RLDC) of the
>    nodes in the SR path.=E2=80=9D
>
> =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes
>    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.=E2=80=
=9D
>
> =E2=80=9CThe special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top
>    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>    defined in this document.=E2=80=9D
>
> =E2=80=9CIf the egress has not indicated that it is capable of removing t=
he
>    SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT be placed at the bottom of
>    the label stack.  In this case the SR-Path-Stats Labels SHOULD be
>    placed at a point in the label stack such that they will be found at
>    the top of stack by the latest node in the SR path that is capable of
>    removing them. =E2=80=9C
>
> =E2=80=9CSR paths may require large label stacks.  Some hardware platform=
s do
>    not support creating such large label stacks (i.e., imposing a large
>    number of labels at once).  To overcome this limitation sub-paths are
>    created within the network, and Binding-SIDs are allocated to these
>    sub-paths.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 which means controller/ ingress software=
 need to also
> create/ install sub-paths.
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Zafar,<div>&quot;overloading existing special label&quo=
t;? AFAIK, MPLS WG created Extended Special Label exactly for cases like we=
&#39;re discussing.</div><div>Of course, alternative proposal for SR-MPLS u=
se case will be most helpful. As description of GAL-ACH based proposal. Sta=
y tuned.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at=
 7:06 PM, Zafar Ali (zali) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cis=
co.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex">







<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_8827683343826013304WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Greg, <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Overloading existing special label, optimizing stack=
 overheads in draft-hegde, etc. will not change the architectural direction=
 of the proposal.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I feel additional discussion on this thread will be =
non-productive. Martin Horneffer, Robert Raszuk, Stephane Litkowski and oth=
ers have shared from their operation experiences; their input cannot be ign=
ored by the vendors. They and others
 have outlined some alternatives. We need to follow-up on additional docume=
ntation (on the alternatives including existing counters) to help us conver=
ge. Please stay tuned.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Greg Mirsky &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail=
.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, November 20, 2017 at 7:03 PM<span class=3D""><br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
</span><b>Cc: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_b=
lank">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.=
uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:=
mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, spring &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<sp=
an class=3D""><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Zafar, <u></u><u></u></p><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don&#39;t see how managing, using passive OAM, i.e=
. counting fly-by packets, at transient SR-MPLS nodes can be equated to bre=
aking &quot;no-forwarding state at transient LSR&quot; model.I believe that=
 practical is as important as aesthetic and that
 network cannot be operated without comprehensive OAM tool box. Of course, =
every tool in the box is optional and will not be deployed unless the need =
arises. If we agree on that, perhaps we can discuss new requirement to be a=
dded to the SR OAM Requirements
 document. And then, then consider how to address such requirement. I belie=
ve that two options were mentioned in the thread:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">
described in=C2=A0draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths s=
pecial purpose label (actually it may end up be extended special purpose la=
bel) and up to two labels;<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"margin-left:0in">
use GAL and ACH (perhaps somewhat similar to approach used in RFC 8169).<u>=
</u><u></u></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 3:36 PM, Zafar Ali (zali) &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt=
; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Adrian,<br>
<br>
Some comments are provided in-line.<br>
<br>
Please note that, we all want to let this lingering tread die and follow-up=
 on the next steps noted during this email exchange. I will be happy to hav=
e a webEx call and discuss it further, offline.<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar<br>
<br>
On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, &quot;Adrian Farrel&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adria=
n@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&lt;snip&gt;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; procedure (in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>ac=
counting-for-sr-paths) that breaks SR<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; Architecture, highly unscalable and complicated =
to implement.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; [JD]=C2=A0 Do you have any evidence to justify any o=
f your assertions, above?<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Please note that in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The transit node needs to be able=
 to recognize the special label, read<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the SR Path Identification la=
bel and update the counter against such<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cstates=E2=80=9D.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Possibly worth noting that existing devices are capable o=
f maintaining many counters and updating them at line speed.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Several people have noted that ipfix is a process used fo=
r accounting in networks. That approach may have to find the bottom of stac=
k and then match the packet that follows.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve finding the bott=
om of stack and hashing on the header of the payload.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Some hardware cannot perform either mechanism. This usual=
ly results from a trade between low cost, high performance, and features. G=
enerally you can&#39;t have all three.<br>
<br>
The question is not about if the hardware is able to perform such operation=
s but regarding breaking the very beauty of SR =E2=80=93 no states at the t=
ransit/ egress nodes. In the context of label stack size explosion, the dra=
ft also talks about needs to break an SR
 Path into sub-paths =E2=80=93 thereby creating yet additional states in th=
e network for accounting reasons (see more detail on this in the following)=
. Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed for SDN =E2=80=93 the architecture calls=
 for simplification of the network not adding complexity
 in the network fabric. Please also note that a network may have a large nu=
mber of SR Path, thereby creating another dimension for scaling limitations=
.<br>
<br>
The proposed procedure also does not work for node protection in the networ=
k. The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to implement procedure propose=
d in the document; I am quoting from the draft.<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CWhen using extensions<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0described in this document for traffic accounting and with nod=
e-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0protection enabled in the network, it is RECOMMENDED to make s=
ure all<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the nodes in the network support the extension.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
&lt;snip&gt;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The draft proposes to push (up to=
) 3 Labels for each segment in the SR<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Path. That means that label s=
tack is increased up to 3x times! This is a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 serious a scaling issue.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 John asked for evidence and you provided a misunderstandi=
ng or misreading of our draft.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels per SR Path (n=
oting as John did, that this is our own term).<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 That is not what you say, so perhaps you could retract or=
 provide a pointer to the text.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thus, &quot;increased up to 3x times&quot; applies only w=
ith the single case where the imposed label stack has exactly one label *an=
d* the three label option is applied. So, while=C2=A0 what you say is true,=
 it is clearly (and wilfully?) exaggerating the severity of
 impact, and it is doubtful that=C2=A0 4-label stack is actually a problem.=
<br>
<br>
There are many scenarios that will require SR-Path-Stats Labels (up to 3 la=
bels) to be present multiple times in the label stack. These scenarios are =
not uncommon. The following scenarios as noted in the draft.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the =
nodes<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accountin=
g.=C2=A0 The<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multiple times in the labe=
l stack<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of a packet.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
=C2=A0=E2=80=9CIt is possible to partially deploy this feature when not all=
 the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0nodes in the network support the extensions defined in this do=
cument.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0In such scenarios, the special labels MUST NOT get exposed on =
the top<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensi=
ons<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0defined in this document.=C2=A0 This may require multiple bloc=
ks of SR-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the packet header.=E2=80=
=9D<br>
<br>
&gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The controller needs to keep track of transit n=
ode capability and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0push the additional per-path l=
abels, accordingly. I.e., the controller<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0also needs to maintain such in=
formation for the transit nodes.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In most cases, the controller/ingress only needs to care =
about the capabilities of the egress nodes. That is, if the special purpose=
 label reaches the top of the stack it has to be able to handle it.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The only time when the transit node issue arises is when =
there is a small RLD. That information may need to be known by the controll=
er to enable correct ECMP behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If there is a desire to enable accounting at transit node=
s with a small RLD then the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and=
 *that* means that the controller has to be sensitive as to where in the ne=
twork the special purpose label will rise to
 the top of the stack.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 It seems to me that:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Controllers are not particularly resource constrained: =
adding a flag per node<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(or even per link!) would not break any scal=
ing behavior.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Adding another flag to the IGP alongside the RLD is not=
 significant scaling issue.<br>
<br>
The comment here was not so much related to scaling but was for adding comp=
lexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you noted above and in the draft=
, controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the following cases every t=
ime a path needs to be computed
 (quoting some of the cases from the draft).<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CWhen the head-end node<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the label stack, the place=
 in the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0stack is decided based on whether the node where the special l=
abel<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0gets exposed is capable of popping those labels.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CWhile inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the head-end router MUST=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0ensure that the labels are not exposed to the nodes that do no=
t<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0support them. =E2=80=9C<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CBecause it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats labels are removed<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0when they are found at the top of the label stack, the node im=
posing<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the label stack (the ingress) must know which nodes are capabl=
e of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0stripping the labels.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
In RLDC limitation cases, =E2=80=9CTo support traffic<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0accounting in such cases it is necessary to insert the SR-Path=
-Stats<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Labels within the Readable Label Stack Depth Capability (RLDC)=
 of the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0nodes in the SR path.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the =
nodes<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accountin=
g.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CThe special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensi=
ons<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0defined in this document.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CIf the egress has not indicated that it is capable of removing the=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT be placed at the bott=
om of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the label stack.=C2=A0 In this case the SR-Path-Stats Labels S=
HOULD be<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0placed at a point in the label stack such that they will be fo=
und at<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the top of stack by the latest node in the SR path that is cap=
able of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0removing them. =E2=80=9C<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CSR paths may require large label stacks.=C2=A0 Some hardware platf=
orms do<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0not support creating such large label stacks (i.e., imposing a=
 large<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0number of labels at once).=C2=A0 To overcome this limitation s=
ub-paths are<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0created within the network, and Binding-SIDs are allocated to =
these<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0sub-paths.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 which means controller/ ingress =
software need to also create/ install sub-paths.<br>
<br>
&lt;snip&gt;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--089e082ef6c4e1c90b055e76246d--


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To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi,

I understand that you doubt that this thread will yield anything =
productive, but there are a couple of things you're raising that need to =
be nailed down.

Probably the most important of these is the concern that you express =
that maintaining counters in the network goes against the beauty of the =
SR architecture because it means holding state at transit nodes. This =
seems to be a debate about the perfection of an architecture versus the =
manageability of the network. Don't get me wrong, I love a beautiful =
architecture, but only if the network can be operated successfully.

So, we should start at the top of the document and work our way down. I =
assume that you don't have any issues with Section 1: it seems to say =
what you are saying about the statelessness of SR. Section 2 is probably =
where you start to be unhappy: it sets an objective (to be able to count =
packets per flow) and sets some requirements on any solution.=20

That is, I think you believe that it is not necessary (or not =
desirable?) to count packets in an SR network and assign those counts to =
the SR paths that generated those packet flows. So the challenge for you =
is to say whether the problem described in Figure 1 is:
- not a concern in network management
- can be solved by other means without counting traffic at
   transit nodes (Note Well that other ways of counting
   traffic at transit nodes are still counting traffic at transit
   nodes).

But one other point I want to pick up on is your claim that "the draft =
also talks about needs to break an SR Path into sub-paths". Sub-paths =
that are achieved through an expansion of a Binding SID are just part of =
the landscape and (of course) thy have to be coped with. The draft =
doesn't introduce sub-paths, it just observes that they exist.

Lastly, the conversation on the number of labels as a multiplier seems =
to have gotten out of hand. Why not just agree that you original =
statement of "increased by up to 3x" was an exaggeration?

Cheers,
Adrian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Zafar Ali (zali) [mailto:zali@cisco.com]
> Sent: 20 November 2017 23:36
> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk
> Cc: 'spring'; 'mpls'
> Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in =
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>=20
> Hi Adrian,
>=20
> Some comments are provided in-line.
>=20
> Please note that, we all want to let this lingering tread die and =
follow-up on the
> next steps noted during this email exchange. I will be happy to have a =
webEx call
> and discuss it further, offline.
>=20
> Thanks
>=20
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>=20
> On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
>=20
> <snip>
>=20
>     >>> procedure (in =
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths) that
> breaks SR
>     >>> Architecture, highly unscalable and complicated to implement.
>     >>
>     >> [JD]  Do you have any evidence to justify any of your =
assertions, above?
>     >
>     > Please note that in =
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths:
>     >
>     > =E2=80=A2    The transit node needs to be able to recognize the =
special label, read
>     >        the SR Path Identification label and update the counter =
against such
>     >        =E2=80=9Cstates=E2=80=9D.
>=20
> >    Possibly worth noting that existing devices are capable of =
maintaining many
> counters and updating them at line speed.
>=20
> >    Several people have noted that ipfix is a process used for =
accounting in
> networks. That approach may have to find the bottom of stack and then =
match
> the packet that follows.
>=20
> >    Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve finding the bottom of =
stack and
> hashing on the header of the payload.
>=20
> >    Some hardware cannot perform either mechanism. This usually =
results from a
> trade between low cost, high performance, and features. Generally you =
can't
> have all three.
>=20
> The question is not about if the hardware is able to perform such =
operations but
> regarding breaking the very beauty of SR =E2=80=93 no states at the =
transit/ egress nodes.
> In the context of label stack size explosion, the draft also talks =
about needs to
> break an SR Path into sub-paths =E2=80=93 thereby creating yet =
additional states in the
> network for accounting reasons (see more detail on this in the =
following).
> Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed for SDN =E2=80=93 the architecture =
calls for
> simplification of the network not adding complexity in the network =
fabric. Please
> also note that a network may have a large number of SR Path, thereby =
creating
> another dimension for scaling limitations.
>=20
> The proposed procedure also does not work for node protection in the =
network.
> The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to implement procedure =
proposed in the
> document; I am quoting from the draft.
>=20
> =E2=80=9CWhen using extensions
>    described in this document for traffic accounting and with node-
>    protection enabled in the network, it is RECOMMENDED to make sure =
all
>    the nodes in the network support the extension.=E2=80=9D
>=20
> <snip>
>=20
>     > =E2=80=A2    The draft proposes to push (up to) 3 Labels for =
each segment in the SR
>     >        Path. That means that label stack is increased up to 3x =
times! This is a
>     >        serious a scaling issue.
>=20
> >    John asked for evidence and you provided a misunderstanding or =
misreading
> of our draft.
> >    The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels per SR Path (noting as =
John did,
> that this is our own term).
> >    That is not what you say, so perhaps you could retract or provide =
a pointer to
> the text.
>=20
> >    Thus, "increased up to 3x times" applies only with the single =
case where the
> imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the three label option =
is applied.
> So, while  what you say is true, it is clearly (and wilfully?) =
exaggerating the
> severity of impact, and it is doubtful that  4-label stack is actually =
a problem.
>=20
> There are many scenarios that will require SR-Path-Stats Labels (up to =
3 labels) to
> be present multiple times in the label stack. These scenarios are not =
uncommon.
> The following scenarios as noted in the draft.
x`x>=20
>   =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes
>    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.  =
The
>    SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multiple times in the label =
stack
>    of a packet.=E2=80=9D
>=20
>  =E2=80=9CIt is possible to partially deploy this feature when not all =
the
>    nodes in the network support the extensions defined in this =
document.
>    In such scenarios, the special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the =
top
>    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>    defined in this document.  This may require multiple blocks of SR-
>    Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the packet header.=E2=80=9D
>=20
> > =E2=80=A2    The controller needs to keep track of transit node =
capability and
>     >       push the additional per-path labels, accordingly. I.e., =
the controller
>     >       also needs to maintain such information for the transit =
nodes.
>=20
> >    In most cases, the controller/ingress only needs to care about =
the capabilities
> of the egress nodes. That is, if the special purpose label reaches the =
top of the
> stack it has to be able to handle it.
>=20
> >    The only time when the transit node issue arises is when there is =
a small RLD.
> That information may need to be known by the controller to enable =
correct ECMP
> behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.
> >    If there is a desire to enable accounting at transit nodes with a =
small RLD then
> the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and *that* means that =
the
> controller has to be sensitive as to where in the network the special =
purpose
> label will rise to the top of the stack.
>=20
> >    It seems to me that:
> >    - Controllers are not particularly resource constrained: adding a =
flag per node
> >       (or even per link!) would not break any scaling behavior.
> >    - Adding another flag to the IGP alongside the RLD is not =
significant scaling
> issue.
>=20
> The comment here was not so much related to scaling but was for adding
> complexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you noted above and in =
the draft,
> controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the following cases =
every time a
> path needs to be computed (quoting some of the cases from the draft).
>=20
> =E2=80=9CWhen the head-end node
>    inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the label stack, the place in =
the
>    stack is decided based on whether the node where the special label
>    gets exposed is capable of popping those labels.=E2=80=9D
>=20
>=20
> =E2=80=9CWhile inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the head-end router =
MUST
>    ensure that the labels are not exposed to the nodes that do not
>    support them. =E2=80=9C
>=20
> =E2=80=9CBecause it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats labels are =
removed
>    when they are found at the top of the label stack, the node =
imposing
>    the label stack (the ingress) must know which nodes are capable of
>    stripping the labels.=E2=80=9D
>=20
> In RLDC limitation cases, =E2=80=9CTo support traffic
>    accounting in such cases it is necessary to insert the =
SR-Path-Stats
>    Labels within the Readable Label Stack Depth Capability (RLDC) of =
the
>    nodes in the SR path.=E2=80=9D
>=20
> =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes
>    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for =
accounting.=E2=80=9D
>=20
> =E2=80=9CThe special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top
>    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>    defined in this document.=E2=80=9D
>=20
> =E2=80=9CIf the egress has not indicated that it is capable of =
removing the
>    SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT be placed at the bottom of
>    the label stack.  In this case the SR-Path-Stats Labels SHOULD be
>    placed at a point in the label stack such that they will be found =
at
>    the top of stack by the latest node in the SR path that is capable =
of
>    removing them. =E2=80=9C
>=20
> =E2=80=9CSR paths may require large label stacks.  Some hardware =
platforms do
>    not support creating such large label stacks (i.e., imposing a =
large
>    number of labels at once).  To overcome this limitation sub-paths =
are
>    created within the network, and Binding-SIDs are allocated to these
>    sub-paths.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 which means controller/ ingress =
software need to also create/
> install sub-paths.
>=20
> <snip>
>=20
>=20



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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 19:34:10 +0100
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Cc: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi Adrian,

I am not going to defend beauty of any architecture. I think there is much
bigger fundamental misunderstanding how in practice someone will use
SR-MPLS and I think this is the root cause for this little thread and
different perspectives of its participants.

So SR-MPLS is not RSVP-TE and there is no EROs. The set of SIDs are no more
then hints on how to steer the packets within connection less paradigm
(same as IP tunnel so to say with less encap overhead) via one or more of
IGP segments.

*The less SIDs you add to the packet the better !*

Yes that requires to be smart (or to have smart central controller) to add
only a very few labels/SIDs to accomplish the network traffic distribution
objectives. I clearly see folks thinking of SR-MPLS like a RSVP-TE analogy
with EROs, but this is IMO fundamentally wrong. Only that you can do it (to
build SR-MPLS paths all the way via your domain) does not make it a good
idea. No where in SR architecture I see any pre-asssumption that last IGP
segment will be connected to domain egress node (with the exception of EPE
but this is different app).

In fact as some may recall we are 17 years after RSVP-TE shipping code and
only very few networks ever deployed it for all unicast traffic end to end
for many reasons. Most folks used it for FRR or for hot spot bypass.

Now as far as OAM sure it is great to have it both for IP networks and
MPLS-LDP networks and SR-MPLS networks. Especially iOAM is very useful. But
this is not really related to SR-MPLS architecture.

With that I think the draft makes set of assumptions which are far from how
SR-MPLS should be deployed and this does make it rather problematic. It is
just like draft describing use of BGP for data centers ... now everyone is
using BGP for all data centers or even other types of networks regardless
if this is even applicable or best choice for a given cluster scale they
are building :).

Counters are great, more counters are even better, but I fail to see the
value for yet again counting traffic arriving via specific IGP segments
when we are already counting packets arriving via given IGP topology. My
recommendation would be to solve it for MPLS-LDP in MPLS WG first (which
after all is one example where flooding domain wide labels in IGP replaces)
and then SR-MPLS will inherit the same solution.

Cheers,
Robert.


On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I understand that you doubt that this thread will yield anything
> productive, but there are a couple of things you're raising that need to =
be
> nailed down.
>
> Probably the most important of these is the concern that you express that
> maintaining counters in the network goes against the beauty of the SR
> architecture because it means holding state at transit nodes. This seems =
to
> be a debate about the perfection of an architecture versus the
> manageability of the network. Don't get me wrong, I love a beautiful
> architecture, but only if the network can be operated successfully.
>
> So, we should start at the top of the document and work our way down. I
> assume that you don't have any issues with Section 1: it seems to say wha=
t
> you are saying about the statelessness of SR. Section 2 is probably where
> you start to be unhappy: it sets an objective (to be able to count packet=
s
> per flow) and sets some requirements on any solution.
>
> That is, I think you believe that it is not necessary (or not desirable?)
> to count packets in an SR network and assign those counts to the SR paths
> that generated those packet flows. So the challenge for you is to say
> whether the problem described in Figure 1 is:
> - not a concern in network management
> - can be solved by other means without counting traffic at
>    transit nodes (Note Well that other ways of counting
>    traffic at transit nodes are still counting traffic at transit
>    nodes).
>
> But one other point I want to pick up on is your claim that "the draft
> also talks about needs to break an SR Path into sub-paths". Sub-paths tha=
t
> are achieved through an expansion of a Binding SID are just part of the
> landscape and (of course) thy have to be coped with. The draft doesn't
> introduce sub-paths, it just observes that they exist.
>
> Lastly, the conversation on the number of labels as a multiplier seems to
> have gotten out of hand. Why not just agree that you original statement o=
f
> "increased by up to 3x" was an exaggeration?
>
> Cheers,
> Adrian
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Zafar Ali (zali) [mailto:zali@cisco.com]
> > Sent: 20 November 2017 23:36
> > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk
> > Cc: 'spring'; 'mpls'
> > Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> > accounting-for-sr-paths
> >
> > Hi Adrian,
> >
> > Some comments are provided in-line.
> >
> > Please note that, we all want to let this lingering tread die and
> follow-up on the
> > next steps noted during this email exchange. I will be happy to have a
> webEx call
> > and discuss it further, offline.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
> >
> > On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >     >>> procedure (in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-path=
s)
> that
> > breaks SR
> >     >>> Architecture, highly unscalable and complicated to implement.
> >     >>
> >     >> [JD]  Do you have any evidence to justify any of your assertions=
,
> above?
> >     >
> >     > Please note that in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths:
> >     >
> >     > =E2=80=A2    The transit node needs to be able to recognize the s=
pecial
> label, read
> >     >        the SR Path Identification label and update the counter
> against such
> >     >        =E2=80=9Cstates=E2=80=9D.
> >
> > >    Possibly worth noting that existing devices are capable of
> maintaining many
> > counters and updating them at line speed.
> >
> > >    Several people have noted that ipfix is a process used for
> accounting in
> > networks. That approach may have to find the bottom of stack and then
> match
> > the packet that follows.
> >
> > >    Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve finding the bottom of
> stack and
> > hashing on the header of the payload.
> >
> > >    Some hardware cannot perform either mechanism. This usually result=
s
> from a
> > trade between low cost, high performance, and features. Generally you
> can't
> > have all three.
> >
> > The question is not about if the hardware is able to perform such
> operations but
> > regarding breaking the very beauty of SR =E2=80=93 no states at the tra=
nsit/
> egress nodes.
> > In the context of label stack size explosion, the draft also talks abou=
t
> needs to
> > break an SR Path into sub-paths =E2=80=93 thereby creating yet addition=
al states
> in the
> > network for accounting reasons (see more detail on this in the
> following).
> > Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed for SDN =E2=80=93 the architecture cal=
ls for
> > simplification of the network not adding complexity in the network
> fabric. Please
> > also note that a network may have a large number of SR Path, thereby
> creating
> > another dimension for scaling limitations.
> >
> > The proposed procedure also does not work for node protection in the
> network.
> > The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to implement procedure
> proposed in the
> > document; I am quoting from the draft.
> >
> > =E2=80=9CWhen using extensions
> >    described in this document for traffic accounting and with node-
> >    protection enabled in the network, it is RECOMMENDED to make sure al=
l
> >    the nodes in the network support the extension.=E2=80=9D
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >     > =E2=80=A2    The draft proposes to push (up to) 3 Labels for each=
 segment
> in the SR
> >     >        Path. That means that label stack is increased up to 3x
> times! This is a
> >     >        serious a scaling issue.
> >
> > >    John asked for evidence and you provided a misunderstanding or
> misreading
> > of our draft.
> > >    The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels per SR Path (noting as
> John did,
> > that this is our own term).
> > >    That is not what you say, so perhaps you could retract or provide =
a
> pointer to
> > the text.
> >
> > >    Thus, "increased up to 3x times" applies only with the single case
> where the
> > imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the three label option
> is applied.
> > So, while  what you say is true, it is clearly (and wilfully?)
> exaggerating the
> > severity of impact, and it is doubtful that  4-label stack is actually =
a
> problem.
> >
> > There are many scenarios that will require SR-Path-Stats Labels (up to =
3
> labels) to
> > be present multiple times in the label stack. These scenarios are not
> uncommon.
> > The following scenarios as noted in the draft.
> x`x>
> >   =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
> >    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes
> >    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.  Th=
e
> >    SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multiple times in the label stac=
k
> >    of a packet.=E2=80=9D
> >
> >  =E2=80=9CIt is possible to partially deploy this feature when not all =
the
> >    nodes in the network support the extensions defined in this document=
.
> >    In such scenarios, the special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the to=
p
> >    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
> >    defined in this document.  This may require multiple blocks of SR-
> >    Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the packet header.=E2=80=9D
> >
> > > =E2=80=A2    The controller needs to keep track of transit node capab=
ility and
> >     >       push the additional per-path labels, accordingly. I.e., the
> controller
> >     >       also needs to maintain such information for the transit
> nodes.
> >
> > >    In most cases, the controller/ingress only needs to care about the
> capabilities
> > of the egress nodes. That is, if the special purpose label reaches the
> top of the
> > stack it has to be able to handle it.
> >
> > >    The only time when the transit node issue arises is when there is =
a
> small RLD.
> > That information may need to be known by the controller to enable
> correct ECMP
> > behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.
> > >    If there is a desire to enable accounting at transit nodes with a
> small RLD then
> > the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and *that* means that t=
he
> > controller has to be sensitive as to where in the network the special
> purpose
> > label will rise to the top of the stack.
> >
> > >    It seems to me that:
> > >    - Controllers are not particularly resource constrained: adding a
> flag per node
> > >       (or even per link!) would not break any scaling behavior.
> > >    - Adding another flag to the IGP alongside the RLD is not
> significant scaling
> > issue.
> >
> > The comment here was not so much related to scaling but was for adding
> > complexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you noted above and in
> the draft,
> > controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the following cases every
> time a
> > path needs to be computed (quoting some of the cases from the draft).
> >
> > =E2=80=9CWhen the head-end node
> >    inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the label stack, the place in th=
e
> >    stack is decided based on whether the node where the special label
> >    gets exposed is capable of popping those labels.=E2=80=9D
> >
> >
> > =E2=80=9CWhile inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the head-end router =
MUST
> >    ensure that the labels are not exposed to the nodes that do not
> >    support them. =E2=80=9C
> >
> > =E2=80=9CBecause it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats labels are remo=
ved
> >    when they are found at the top of the label stack, the node imposing
> >    the label stack (the ingress) must know which nodes are capable of
> >    stripping the labels.=E2=80=9D
> >
> > In RLDC limitation cases, =E2=80=9CTo support traffic
> >    accounting in such cases it is necessary to insert the SR-Path-Stats
> >    Labels within the Readable Label Stack Depth Capability (RLDC) of th=
e
> >    nodes in the SR path.=E2=80=9D
> >
> > =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
> >    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes
> >    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.=E2=
=80=9D
> >
> > =E2=80=9CThe special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top
> >    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
> >    defined in this document.=E2=80=9D
> >
> > =E2=80=9CIf the egress has not indicated that it is capable of removing=
 the
> >    SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT be placed at the bottom of
> >    the label stack.  In this case the SR-Path-Stats Labels SHOULD be
> >    placed at a point in the label stack such that they will be found at
> >    the top of stack by the latest node in the SR path that is capable o=
f
> >    removing them. =E2=80=9C
> >
> > =E2=80=9CSR paths may require large label stacks.  Some hardware platfo=
rms do
> >    not support creating such large label stacks (i.e., imposing a large
> >    number of labels at once).  To overcome this limitation sub-paths ar=
e
> >    created within the network, and Binding-SIDs are allocated to these
> >    sub-paths.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 which means controller/ ingress softwa=
re need to also
> create/
> > install sub-paths.
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi Adrian,</div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif;font-size:small">I am not going to defend beauty of any architectur=
e. I think there is much bigger fundamental misunderstanding how in practic=
e someone will use SR-MPLS and I think this is the root cause for this litt=
le thread and different perspectives of its participants.=C2=A0</div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font=
-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:ar=
ial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">So SR-MPLS is not RSVP-TE and the=
re is no EROs. The set of SIDs are no more then hints on how to steer the p=
ackets within connection less paradigm (same as IP tunnel so to say with le=
ss encap overhead) via one or more of IGP segments.=C2=A0</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small"><b><br></b></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family=
:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><b>The less SIDs you add to th=
e packet the better !</b>=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"=
font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-si=
ze:small">Yes that requires to be smart (or to have smart central controlle=
r) to add only a very few labels/SIDs to accomplish the network traffic dis=
tribution objectives. I clearly see folks thinking of SR-MPLS like a RSVP-T=
E analogy with EROs, but this is IMO fundamentally wrong. Only that you can=
 do it (to build SR-MPLS paths all the way via your domain) does not make i=
t a good idea. No where in SR architecture I see any pre-asssumption that l=
ast IGP segment will be connected to domain egress node (with the exception=
 of EPE but this is different app).</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small">In fact as some may recall we are 17 years after RSVP-TE ship=
ping code and only very few networks ever deployed it for all unicast traff=
ic end to end for many reasons. Most folks used it for FRR or for hot spot =
bypass.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,=
helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default=
" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Now as f=
ar as OAM sure it is great to have it both for IP networks and MPLS-LDP net=
works and SR-MPLS networks. Especially iOAM is very useful. But this is not=
 really related to SR-MPLS architecture.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif;font-size:small">With that I think the draft makes set of assumptio=
ns which are far from how SR-MPLS should be deployed and this does make it =
rather problematic. It is just like draft describing use of BGP for data ce=
nters ... now everyone is using BGP for all data centers or even other type=
s of networks regardless if this is even applicable or best choice for a gi=
ven cluster scale they are building :).=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br><=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans=
-serif;font-size:small">Counters are great, more counters are even better, =
but I fail to see the value for yet again counting traffic arriving via spe=
cific IGP segments when we are already counting packets arriving via given =
IGP topology. My recommendation would be to solve it for MPLS-LDP in MPLS W=
G first (which after all is one example where flooding domain wide labels i=
n IGP replaces) and then SR-MPLS will inherit the same solution.</div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:a=
rial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Cheers,</div><div class=3D"gmail=
_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">=
Robert.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvet=
ica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Adrian Farr=
el <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_=
blank">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex">Hi,<br>
<br>
I understand that you doubt that this thread will yield anything productive=
, but there are a couple of things you&#39;re raising that need to be naile=
d down.<br>
<br>
Probably the most important of these is the concern that you express that m=
aintaining counters in the network goes against the beauty of the SR archit=
ecture because it means holding state at transit nodes. This seems to be a =
debate about the perfection of an architecture versus the manageability of =
the network. Don&#39;t get me wrong, I love a beautiful architecture, but o=
nly if the network can be operated successfully.<br>
<br>
So, we should start at the top of the document and work our way down. I ass=
ume that you don&#39;t have any issues with Section 1: it seems to say what=
 you are saying about the statelessness of SR. Section 2 is probably where =
you start to be unhappy: it sets an objective (to be able to count packets =
per flow) and sets some requirements on any solution.<br>
<br>
That is, I think you believe that it is not necessary (or not desirable?) t=
o count packets in an SR network and assign those counts to the SR paths th=
at generated those packet flows. So the challenge for you is to say whether=
 the problem described in Figure 1 is:<br>
- not a concern in network management<br>
- can be solved by other means without counting traffic at<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0transit nodes (Note Well that other ways of counting<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0traffic at transit nodes are still counting traffic at transit=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0nodes).<br>
<br>
But one other point I want to pick up on is your claim that &quot;the draft=
 also talks about needs to break an SR Path into sub-paths&quot;. Sub-paths=
 that are achieved through an expansion of a Binding SID are just part of t=
he landscape and (of course) thy have to be coped with. The draft doesn&#39=
;t introduce sub-paths, it just observes that they exist.<br>
<br>
Lastly, the conversation on the number of labels as a multiplier seems to h=
ave gotten out of hand. Why not just agree that you original statement of &=
quot;increased by up to 3x&quot; was an exaggeration?<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Adrian<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Zafar Ali (zali) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@=
cisco.com</a>]<br>
&gt; Sent: 20 November 2017 23:36<br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a><br>
&gt; Cc: &#39;spring&#39;; &#39;mpls&#39;<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spr=
ing-traffic-<br>
&gt; accounting-for-sr-paths<br>
&gt;<br>
</span><div><div class=3D"h5">&gt; Hi Adrian,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Some comments are provided in-line.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please note that, we all want to let this lingering tread die and foll=
ow-up on the<br>
&gt; next steps noted during this email exchange. I will be happy to have a=
 webEx call<br>
&gt; and discuss it further, offline.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, &quot;Adrian Farrel&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
adrian@olddog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; procedure (in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths) that<br>
&gt; breaks SR<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Architecture, highly unscalable and co=
mplicated to implement.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; [JD]=C2=A0 Do you have any evidence to jus=
tify any of your assertions, above?<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Please note that in draft-hegde-spring-traffic=
-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The transit node needs =
to be able to recognize the special label, read<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the SR Path Identif=
ication label and update the counter against such<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cstates=E2=
=80=9D.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Possibly worth noting that existing devices are capa=
ble of maintaining many<br>
&gt; counters and updating them at line speed.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Several people have noted that ipfix is a process us=
ed for accounting in<br>
&gt; networks. That approach may have to find the bottom of stack and then =
match<br>
&gt; the packet that follows.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve finding the=
 bottom of stack and<br>
&gt; hashing on the header of the payload.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Some hardware cannot perform either mechanism. This =
usually results from a<br>
&gt; trade between low cost, high performance, and features. Generally you =
can&#39;t<br>
&gt; have all three.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The question is not about if the hardware is able to perform such oper=
ations but<br>
&gt; regarding breaking the very beauty of SR =E2=80=93 no states at the tr=
ansit/ egress nodes.<br>
&gt; In the context of label stack size explosion, the draft also talks abo=
ut needs to<br>
&gt; break an SR Path into sub-paths =E2=80=93 thereby creating yet additio=
nal states in the<br>
&gt; network for accounting reasons (see more detail on this in the followi=
ng).<br>
&gt; Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed for SDN =E2=80=93 the architecture ca=
lls for<br>
&gt; simplification of the network not adding complexity in the network fab=
ric. Please<br>
&gt; also note that a network may have a large number of SR Path, thereby c=
reating<br>
&gt; another dimension for scaling limitations.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The proposed procedure also does not work for node protection in the n=
etwork.<br>
&gt; The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to implement procedure propo=
sed in the<br>
&gt; document; I am quoting from the draft.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CWhen using extensions<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 described in this document for traffic accounting and wit=
h node-<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 protection enabled in the network, it is RECOMMENDED to m=
ake sure all<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the nodes in the network support the extension.=E2=80=9D<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The draft proposes to p=
ush (up to) 3 Labels for each segment in the SR<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Path. That means th=
at label stack is increased up to 3x times! This is a<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 serious a scaling i=
ssue.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 John asked for evidence and you provided a misunders=
tanding or misreading<br>
&gt; of our draft.<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels per SR Pa=
th (noting as John did,<br>
&gt; that this is our own term).<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 That is not what you say, so perhaps you could retra=
ct or provide a pointer to<br>
&gt; the text.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thus, &quot;increased up to 3x times&quot; applies o=
nly with the single case where the<br>
&gt; imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the three label option=
 is applied.<br>
&gt; So, while=C2=A0 what you say is true, it is clearly (and wilfully?) ex=
aggerating the<br>
&gt; severity of impact, and it is doubtful that=C2=A0 4-label stack is act=
ually a problem.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; There are many scenarios that will require SR-Path-Stats Labels (up to=
 3 labels) to<br>
&gt; be present multiple times in the label stack. These scenarios are not =
uncommon.<br>
&gt; The following scenarios as noted in the draft.<br>
</div></div>x`x&gt;<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9CThe head-=
end node SHOULD insert the SR-<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that=
 the nodes<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for acco=
unting.=C2=A0 The<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multiple times in the=
 label stack<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of a packet.=E2=80=9D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CIt is possible to partially deploy this feature when no=
t all the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 nodes in the network support the extensions defined in th=
is document.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In such scenarios, the special labels MUST NOT get expose=
d on the top<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the label stack at a node that does not support the ex=
tensions<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 defined in this document.=C2=A0 This may require multiple=
 blocks of SR-<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the packet header.=E2=
=80=9D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The controller needs to keep track of tran=
sit node capability and<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0push the additional =
per-path labels, accordingly. I.e., the controller<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0also needs to mainta=
in such information for the transit nodes.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In most cases, the controller/ingress only needs to =
care about the capabilities<br>
&gt; of the egress nodes. That is, if the special purpose label reaches the=
 top of the<br>
&gt; stack it has to be able to handle it.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The only time when the transit node issue arises is =
when there is a small RLD.<br>
&gt; That information may need to be known by the controller to enable corr=
ect ECMP<br>
&gt; behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If there is a desire to enable accounting at transit=
 nodes with a small RLD then<br>
&gt; the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and *that* means that =
the<br>
&gt; controller has to be sensitive as to where in the network the special =
purpose<br>
&gt; label will rise to the top of the stack.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 It seems to me that:<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Controllers are not particularly resource constrai=
ned: adding a flag per node<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(or even per link!) would not break any=
 scaling behavior.<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Adding another flag to the IGP alongside the RLD i=
s not significant scaling<br>
&gt; issue.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The comment here was not so much related to scaling but was for adding=
<br>
&gt; complexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you noted above and in =
the draft,<br>
&gt; controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the following cases ever=
y time a<br>
&gt; path needs to be computed (quoting some of the cases from the draft).<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CWhen the head-end node<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the label stack, the =
place in the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 stack is decided based on whether the node where the spec=
ial label<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 gets exposed is capable of popping those labels.=E2=80=9D=
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CWhile inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the head-end router=
 MUST<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ensure that the labels are not exposed to the nodes that =
do not<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 support them. =E2=80=9C<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CBecause it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats labels are rem=
oved<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 when they are found at the top of the label stack, the no=
de imposing<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the label stack (the ingress) must know which nodes are c=
apable of<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 stripping the labels.=E2=80=9D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; In RLDC limitation cases, =E2=80=9CTo support traffic<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 accounting in such cases it is necessary to insert the SR=
-Path-Stats<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Labels within the Readable Label Stack Depth Capability (=
RLDC) of the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 nodes in the SR path.=E2=80=9D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that=
 the nodes<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for acco=
unting.=E2=80=9D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CThe special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the label stack at a node that does not support the ex=
tensions<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 defined in this document.=E2=80=9D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CIf the egress has not indicated that it is capable of removin=
g the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT be placed at the=
 bottom of<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the label stack.=C2=A0 In this case the SR-Path-Stats Lab=
els SHOULD be<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 placed at a point in the label stack such that they will =
be found at<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the top of stack by the latest node in the SR path that i=
s capable of<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 removing them. =E2=80=9C<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CSR paths may require large label stacks.=C2=A0 Some hardware =
platforms do<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 not support creating such large label stacks (i.e., impos=
ing a large<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 number of labels at once).=C2=A0 To overcome this limitat=
ion sub-paths are<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 created within the network, and Binding-SIDs are allocate=
d to these<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sub-paths.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 which means controller/ ing=
ress software need to also create/<br>
&gt; install sub-paths.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
</div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/spring</a><br=
>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a113c383c0367a5055e827350--


From nobody Tue Nov 21 12:33:43 2017
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Subject: [spring] I-D Action: draft-filsfils-spring-large-scale-interconnect-07.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Interconnecting Millions Of Endpoints With Segment Routing
        Authors         : Clarence Filsfils
                          Stefano Previdi
                          Gaurav Dawra
                          Dennis Cai
                          Wim Henderickx
                          Dave Cooper
                          Tim Laberge
                          Steven Lin
                          Bruno Decraene
                          Luay Jalil
                          Jeff Tantsura
                          Rob Shakir
	Filename        : draft-filsfils-spring-large-scale-interconnect-07.txt
	Pages           : 11
	Date            : 2017-11-21

Abstract:
   This document describes an application of Segment Routing to scale
   the network to support hundreds of thousands of network nodes, and
   tens of millions of physical underlay endpoints.  This use-case can
   be applied to the interconnection of massive-scale DC's and/or large
   aggregation networks.  Forwarding tables of midpoint and leaf nodes
   only require a few tens of thousands of entries.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-filsfils-spring-large-scale-interconnect/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-large-scale-interconnect-07
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-filsfils-spring-large-scale-interconnect-07

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-filsfils-spring-large-scale-interconnect-07


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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--_000_EF691E26AC7C406892E1966DDF6F4171ciscocom_--


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To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
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From: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Comments inline:


On 20/11/2017 23:36, Zafar Ali (zali) wrote:
> Hi Adrian,
>
> Some comments are provided in-line.
>
> Please note that, we all want to let this lingering tread die and follow-up on the next steps noted during this email exchange. I will be happy to have a webEx call and discuss it further, offline.

No, some of us would  like to resolve the issue since it raises 
interesting architectural issues with SR.

>
> Thanks
>
> Regards … Zafar
>
> On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>      
>      >>> procedure (in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths) that breaks SR
>      >>> Architecture, highly unscalable and complicated to implement.
>      >>
>      >> [JD]  Do you have any evidence to justify any of your assertions, above?
>      >
>      > Please note that in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths:
>      >
>      > •    The transit node needs to be able to recognize the special label, read
>      >        the SR Path Identification label and update the counter against such
>      >        “states”.
>      
>>     Possibly worth noting that existing devices are capable of maintaining many counters and updating them at line speed.
>      
>>     Several people have noted that ipfix is a process used for accounting in networks. That approach may have to find the bottom of stack and then match the packet that follows.
>      
>>     Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve finding the bottom of stack and hashing on the header of the payload.
>      
>>     Some hardware cannot perform either mechanism. This usually results from a trade between low cost, high performance, and features. Generally you can't have all three.
> The question is not about if the hardware is able to perform such operations but regarding breaking the very beauty of SR – no states at the transit/ egress nodes.

Well, it's more about minimum state. Zero state at egress only applies 
for some classes of traffic.

Whilst the intent is for zero state in the transit nodes, this cannot be 
at the expense of not being able to manage the network.

> In the context of label stack size explosion, the draft also talks about needs to break an SR Path into sub-paths – thereby creating yet additional states in the network for accounting reasons (see more detail on this in the following). Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed for SDN – the architecture calls for simplification of the network not adding complexity in the network fabric.

No. SR is not and never has been solely for SDN. On day one there was 
the concept that the ingress could compute the path.


> Please also note that a network may have a large number of SR Path, thereby creating another dimension for scaling limitations.
>
> The proposed procedure also does not work for node protection in the network. The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to implement procedure proposed in the document; I am quoting from the draft.
>
> “When using extensions
>     described in this document for traffic accounting and with node-
>     protection enabled in the network, it is RECOMMENDED to make sure all
>     the nodes in the network support the extension.”

If all nodes support this (as recommended), then all nodes support it so 
it works during re-route. Indeed this is more important during reroute 
since that is when you expect hot spots to form.

The dynamic counter concept is no different to dynamic counters needed 
in IPFIX, so it is a concept that a lot of routers already have.


>
> <snip>
>    
>      > •    The draft proposes to push (up to) 3 Labels for each segment in the SR
>      >        Path. That means that label stack is increased up to 3x times! This is a
>      >        serious a scaling issue.
>      

Maybe there needs to be a change in the text, but what is required is 
three labels per ingress being monitored. This is something where SR 
really introduces confusion for the OAM systems and we need to work this 
through. In "classic" MPLS each label represented a layer in the 
network. SR breaks that model, with sadly little comment on this in the 
architecture. So we do need to think this through a bit, and understand 
whether we need to have a rule stating that there can only be one source 
identifier in the stack - meaning that SI can only be BoS and that if 
you want to record the source when you introduce a new layer you need to 
terminate the old stack and start a new one.

>>     John asked for evidence and you provided a misunderstanding or misreading of our draft.
>>     The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels per SR Path (noting as John did, that this is our own term).
>>     That is not what you say, so perhaps you could retract or provide a pointer to the text.
>      
>>     Thus, "increased up to 3x times" applies only with the single case where the imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the three label option is applied. So, while  what you say is true, it is clearly (and wilfully?) exaggerating the severity of impact, and it is doubtful that  4-label stack is actually a problem.
>   
> There are many scenarios that will require SR-Path-Stats Labels (up to 3 labels) to be present multiple times in the label stack. These scenarios are not uncommon. The following scenarios as noted in the draft.
>     
>    “The head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>     Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes
>     in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.  The
>     SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multiple times in the label stack
>     of a packet.”
>
>   “It is possible to partially deploy this feature when not all the
>     nodes in the network support the extensions defined in this document.
>     In such scenarios, the special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top
>     of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>     defined in this document.  This may require multiple blocks of SR-
>     Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the packet header.”
>
>> •    The controller needs to keep track of transit node capability and
>      >       push the additional per-path labels, accordingly. I.e., the controller
>      >       also needs to maintain such information for the transit nodes.
>      
>>     In most cases, the controller/ingress only needs to care about the capabilities of the egress nodes. That is, if the special purpose label reaches the top of the stack it has to be able to handle it.
>      
>>     The only time when the transit node issue arises is when there is a small RLD. That information may need to be known by the controller to enable correct ECMP behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.
>>     If there is a desire to enable accounting at transit nodes with a small RLD then the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and *that* means that the controller has to be sensitive as to where in the network the special purpose label will rise to the top of the stack.
>      
>>     It seems to me that:
>>     - Controllers are not particularly resource constrained: adding a flag per node
>>        (or even per link!) would not break any scaling behavior.
>>     - Adding another flag to the IGP alongside the RLD is not significant scaling issue.
>    
> The comment here was not so much related to scaling but was for adding complexity to the controller/ ingress node.

As far as I can tell the complexity is exactly the same as the 
complexity needed to insert the EL. Indeed you probably insert the 
labels at the same time,
and I suppose we should consider having a combined EL/SI SPL.

> As you noted above and in the draft, controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the following cases every time a path needs to be computed (quoting some of the cases from the draft).
>     
> “When the head-end node
>     inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the label stack, the place in the
>     stack is decided based on whether the node where the special label
>     gets exposed is capable of popping those labels.”
>
>
> “While inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the head-end router MUST
>     ensure that the labels are not exposed to the nodes that do not
>     support them. “
>
> “Because it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats labels are removed
>     when they are found at the top of the label stack, the node imposing
>     the label stack (the ingress) must know which nodes are capable of
>     stripping the labels.”
>
> In RLDC limitation cases, “To support traffic
>     accounting in such cases it is necessary to insert the SR-Path-Stats
>     Labels within the Readable Label Stack Depth Capability (RLDC) of the
>     nodes in the SR path.”
>
> “The head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>     Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes
>     in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.”
>
> “The special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top
>     of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>     defined in this document.”
>
> “If the egress has not indicated that it is capable of removing the
>     SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT be placed at the bottom of
>     the label stack.  In this case the SR-Path-Stats Labels SHOULD be
>     placed at a point in the label stack such that they will be found at
>     the top of stack by the latest node in the SR path that is capable of
>     removing them. “
>
> “SR paths may require large label stacks.  Some hardware platforms do
>     not support creating such large label stacks (i.e., imposing a large
>     number of labels at once).  To overcome this limitation sub-paths are
>     created within the network, and Binding-SIDs are allocated to these
>     sub-paths.” … which means controller/ ingress software need to also create/ install sub-paths.
>    
> <snip>

These look like exactly the same considerations needed for EL.

Now we need to consider what happens if we have a node that does not 
support
the required depth. In both cases the result is the same - the feature 
is not
supported, but the packet is correctly forwarded. In this case it will mean
that there is an unmonitored part of the network. That is not so bad in 
that
you can at least figure out the region in the network where this happened.
In the case of the same limitation and the EL system the result may well be
a traffic overload as there is little entropy in an SR label stack.

- Stewart


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To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Cc: mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
References: <CA+RyBmUHAkuA3o-LpHhMwCbkh0k+emt9OZ3B8Njj2h=jaasTZw@mail.gmail.com> <3B1EE673-044F-4E47-9C56-6FF360905C58@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE3047CEC9@NKGEML515-MBS.china.huawei.com> <CA+RyBmVC2OjEs-=1WsL13eBmycZtnYnM8ybSdmWhGPByLKNQfA@mail.gmail.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE3047D106@NKGEML515-MBS.china.huawei.com> <EF064624-CF4D-4B88-823E-DAB9957B9336@cisco.com> <MWHPR05MB35512AD68B9CE96E8A5E7255C72E0@MWHPR05MB3551.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <A9BFDECC-84A4-42E6-83CD-D09A2D48BA75@cisco.com> <189901d36076$aa76b4b0$ff641e10$@olddog.co.uk> <0EAD8CC9-8C65-4A78-896B-D96F42230020@cisco.com> <01de01d362f2$14766ef0$3d634cd0$@olddog.co.uk> <CA+b+ERmkHZe9BU-JZLWpOEcwAhPqx72Sw4-NyLgVjhzzfySdCQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: Martin Horneffer <maho@nic.dtag.de>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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+1

In other words, I confirm from an operators point of view that Robert 
got good network desing goals quite right. I also perfectly agree with 
the observations concerning the use of RSVP in the past.

BR, Martin

Am 21.11.17 um 19:34 schrieb Robert Raszuk:
> Hi Adrian,
>
> I am not going to defend beauty of any architecture. I think there is 
> much bigger fundamental misunderstanding how in practice someone will 
> use SR-MPLS and I think this is the root cause for this little thread 
> and different perspectives of its participants.
>
> So SR-MPLS is not RSVP-TE and there is no EROs. The set of SIDs are no 
> more then hints on how to steer the packets within connection less 
> paradigm (same as IP tunnel so to say with less encap overhead) via 
> one or more of IGP segments.
> *
> *
> *The less SIDs you add to the packet the better !*
>
> Yes that requires to be smart (or to have smart central controller) to 
> add only a very few labels/SIDs to accomplish the network traffic 
> distribution objectives. I clearly see folks thinking of SR-MPLS like 
> a RSVP-TE analogy with EROs, but this is IMO fundamentally wrong. Only 
> that you can do it (to build SR-MPLS paths all the way via your 
> domain) does not make it a good idea. No where in SR architecture I 
> see any pre-asssumption that last IGP segment will be connected to 
> domain egress node (with the exception of EPE but this is different app).
>
> In fact as some may recall we are 17 years after RSVP-TE shipping code 
> and only very few networks ever deployed it for all unicast traffic 
> end to end for many reasons. Most folks used it for FRR or for hot 
> spot bypass.
>
> Now as far as OAM sure it is great to have it both for IP networks and 
> MPLS-LDP networks and SR-MPLS networks. Especially iOAM is very 
> useful. But this is not really related to SR-MPLS architecture.
>
> With that I think the draft makes set of assumptions which are far 
> from how SR-MPLS should be deployed and this does make it rather 
> problematic. It is just like draft describing use of BGP for data 
> centers ... now everyone is using BGP for all data centers or even 
> other types of networks regardless if this is even applicable or best 
> choice for a given cluster scale they are building :).
>
> Counters are great, more counters are even better, but I fail to see 
> the value for yet again counting traffic arriving via specific IGP 
> segments when we are already counting packets arriving via given IGP 
> topology. My recommendation would be to solve it for MPLS-LDP in MPLS 
> WG first (which after all is one example where flooding domain wide 
> labels in IGP replaces) and then SR-MPLS will inherit the same solution.
>
> Cheers,
> Robert.
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk 
> <mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>> wrote:
>
>     Hi,
>
>     I understand that you doubt that this thread will yield anything
>     productive, but there are a couple of things you're raising that
>     need to be nailed down.
>
>     Probably the most important of these is the concern that you
>     express that maintaining counters in the network goes against the
>     beauty of the SR architecture because it means holding state at
>     transit nodes. This seems to be a debate about the perfection of
>     an architecture versus the manageability of the network. Don't get
>     me wrong, I love a beautiful architecture, but only if the network
>     can be operated successfully.
>
>     So, we should start at the top of the document and work our way
>     down. I assume that you don't have any issues with Section 1: it
>     seems to say what you are saying about the statelessness of SR.
>     Section 2 is probably where you start to be unhappy: it sets an
>     objective (to be able to count packets per flow) and sets some
>     requirements on any solution.
>
>     That is, I think you believe that it is not necessary (or not
>     desirable?) to count packets in an SR network and assign those
>     counts to the SR paths that generated those packet flows. So the
>     challenge for you is to say whether the problem described in
>     Figure 1 is:
>     - not a concern in network management
>     - can be solved by other means without counting traffic at
>        transit nodes (Note Well that other ways of counting
>        traffic at transit nodes are still counting traffic at transit
>        nodes).
>
>     But one other point I want to pick up on is your claim that "the
>     draft also talks about needs to break an SR Path into sub-paths".
>     Sub-paths that are achieved through an expansion of a Binding SID
>     are just part of the landscape and (of course) thy have to be
>     coped with. The draft doesn't introduce sub-paths, it just
>     observes that they exist.
>
>     Lastly, the conversation on the number of labels as a multiplier
>     seems to have gotten out of hand. Why not just agree that you
>     original statement of "increased by up to 3x" was an exaggeration?
>
>     Cheers,
>     Adrian
>
>     > -----Original Message-----
>     > From: Zafar Ali (zali) [mailto:zali@cisco.com
>     <mailto:zali@cisco.com>]
>     > Sent: 20 November 2017 23:36
>     > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk <mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>
>     > Cc: 'spring'; 'mpls'
>     > Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
>     > accounting-for-sr-paths
>     >
>     > Hi Adrian,
>     >
>     > Some comments are provided in-line.
>     >
>     > Please note that, we all want to let this lingering tread die
>     and follow-up on the
>     > next steps noted during this email exchange. I will be happy to
>     have a webEx call
>     > and discuss it further, offline.
>     >
>     > Thanks
>     >
>     > Regards … Zafar
>     >
>     > On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk
>     <mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>> wrote:
>     >
>     > <snip>
>     >
>     >     >>> procedure (in
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths) that
>     > breaks SR
>     >     >>> Architecture, highly unscalable and complicated to
>     implement.
>     >     >>
>     >     >> [JD]  Do you have any evidence to justify any of your
>     assertions, above?
>     >     >
>     >     > Please note that in
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths:
>     >     >
>     >     > •    The transit node needs to be able to recognize the
>     special label, read
>     >     >        the SR Path Identification label and update the
>     counter against such
>     >     >        “states”.
>     >
>     > >    Possibly worth noting that existing devices are capable of
>     maintaining many
>     > counters and updating them at line speed.
>     >
>     > >    Several people have noted that ipfix is a process used for
>     accounting in
>     > networks. That approach may have to find the bottom of stack and
>     then match
>     > the packet that follows.
>     >
>     > >    Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve finding the bottom
>     of stack and
>     > hashing on the header of the payload.
>     >
>     > >    Some hardware cannot perform either mechanism. This usually
>     results from a
>     > trade between low cost, high performance, and features.
>     Generally you can't
>     > have all three.
>     >
>     > The question is not about if the hardware is able to perform
>     such operations but
>     > regarding breaking the very beauty of SR – no states at the
>     transit/ egress nodes.
>     > In the context of label stack size explosion, the draft also
>     talks about needs to
>     > break an SR Path into sub-paths – thereby creating yet
>     additional states in the
>     > network for accounting reasons (see more detail on this in the
>     following).
>     > Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed for SDN – the architecture
>     calls for
>     > simplification of the network not adding complexity in the
>     network fabric. Please
>     > also note that a network may have a large number of SR Path,
>     thereby creating
>     > another dimension for scaling limitations.
>     >
>     > The proposed procedure also does not work for node protection in
>     the network.
>     > The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to implement procedure
>     proposed in the
>     > document; I am quoting from the draft.
>     >
>     > “When using extensions
>     >    described in this document for traffic accounting and with node-
>     >    protection enabled in the network, it is RECOMMENDED to make
>     sure all
>     >    the nodes in the network support the extension.”
>     >
>     > <snip>
>     >
>     >     > •    The draft proposes to push (up to) 3 Labels for each
>     segment in the SR
>     >     >        Path. That means that label stack is increased up
>     to 3x times! This is a
>     >     >        serious a scaling issue.
>     >
>     > >    John asked for evidence and you provided a misunderstanding
>     or misreading
>     > of our draft.
>     > >    The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels per SR Path
>     (noting as John did,
>     > that this is our own term).
>     > >    That is not what you say, so perhaps you could retract or
>     provide a pointer to
>     > the text.
>     >
>     > >    Thus, "increased up to 3x times" applies only with the
>     single case where the
>     > imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the three label
>     option is applied.
>     > So, while  what you say is true, it is clearly (and wilfully?)
>     exaggerating the
>     > severity of impact, and it is doubtful that 4-label stack is
>     actually a problem.
>     >
>     > There are many scenarios that will require SR-Path-Stats Labels
>     (up to 3 labels) to
>     > be present multiple times in the label stack. These scenarios
>     are not uncommon.
>     > The following scenarios as noted in the draft.
>     x`x>
>     >   “The head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>     >    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the
>     nodes
>     >    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for
>     accounting.  The
>     >    SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multiple times in the
>     label stack
>     >    of a packet.”
>     >
>     >  “It is possible to partially deploy this feature when not all the
>     >    nodes in the network support the extensions defined in this
>     document.
>     >    In such scenarios, the special labels MUST NOT get exposed on
>     the top
>     >    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>     >    defined in this document.  This may require multiple blocks
>     of SR-
>     >    Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the packet header.”
>     >
>     > > •    The controller needs to keep track of transit node
>     capability and
>     >     >       push the additional per-path labels, accordingly.
>     I.e., the controller
>     >     >       also needs to maintain such information for the
>     transit nodes.
>     >
>     > >    In most cases, the controller/ingress only needs to care
>     about the capabilities
>     > of the egress nodes. That is, if the special purpose label
>     reaches the top of the
>     > stack it has to be able to handle it.
>     >
>     > >    The only time when the transit node issue arises is when
>     there is a small RLD.
>     > That information may need to be known by the controller to
>     enable correct ECMP
>     > behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.
>     > >    If there is a desire to enable accounting at transit nodes
>     with a small RLD then
>     > the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and *that* means
>     that the
>     > controller has to be sensitive as to where in the network the
>     special purpose
>     > label will rise to the top of the stack.
>     >
>     > >    It seems to me that:
>     > >    - Controllers are not particularly resource constrained:
>     adding a flag per node
>     > >       (or even per link!) would not break any scaling behavior.
>     > >    - Adding another flag to the IGP alongside the RLD is not
>     significant scaling
>     > issue.
>     >
>     > The comment here was not so much related to scaling but was for
>     adding
>     > complexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you noted above
>     and in the draft,
>     > controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the following
>     cases every time a
>     > path needs to be computed (quoting some of the cases from the
>     draft).
>     >
>     > “When the head-end node
>     >    inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the label stack, the
>     place in the
>     >    stack is decided based on whether the node where the special
>     label
>     >    gets exposed is capable of popping those labels.”
>     >
>     >
>     > “While inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the head-end router MUST
>     >    ensure that the labels are not exposed to the nodes that do not
>     >    support them. “
>     >
>     > “Because it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats labels are removed
>     >    when they are found at the top of the label stack, the node
>     imposing
>     >    the label stack (the ingress) must know which nodes are
>     capable of
>     >    stripping the labels.”
>     >
>     > In RLDC limitation cases, “To support traffic
>     >    accounting in such cases it is necessary to insert the
>     SR-Path-Stats
>     >    Labels within the Readable Label Stack Depth Capability
>     (RLDC) of the
>     >    nodes in the SR path.”
>     >
>     > “The head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>     >    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the
>     nodes
>     >    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.”
>     >
>     > “The special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top
>     >    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>     >    defined in this document.”
>     >
>     > “If the egress has not indicated that it is capable of removing the
>     >    SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT be placed at the
>     bottom of
>     >    the label stack.  In this case the SR-Path-Stats Labels SHOULD be
>     >    placed at a point in the label stack such that they will be
>     found at
>     >    the top of stack by the latest node in the SR path that is
>     capable of
>     >    removing them. “
>     >
>     > “SR paths may require large label stacks.  Some hardware
>     platforms do
>     >    not support creating such large label stacks (i.e., imposing
>     a large
>     >    number of labels at once).  To overcome this limitation
>     sub-paths are
>     >    created within the network, and Binding-SIDs are allocated to
>     these
>     >    sub-paths.” … which means controller/ ingress software need
>     to also create/
>     > install sub-paths.
>     >
>     > <snip>
>     >
>     >
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     spring mailing list
>     spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>     <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring>
>
>
>
>
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    +1<br>
    <br>
    In other words, I confirm from an operators point of view that
    Robert got good network desing goals quite right. I also perfectly
    agree with the observations concerning the use of RSVP in the past.<br>
    <br>
    BR, Martin<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 21.11.17 um 19:34 schrieb Robert
      Raszuk:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+b+ERmkHZe9BU-JZLWpOEcwAhPqx72Sw4-NyLgVjhzzfySdCQ@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi
          Adrian,</div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">I
          am not going to defend beauty of any architecture. I think
          there is much bigger fundamental misunderstanding how in
          practice someone will use SR-MPLS and I think this is the root
          cause for this little thread and different perspectives of its
          participants. </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">So
          SR-MPLS is not RSVP-TE and there is no EROs. The set of SIDs
          are no more then hints on how to steer the packets within
          connection less paradigm (same as IP tunnel so to say with
          less encap overhead) via one or more of IGP segments. </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><b><br>
          </b></div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><b>The
            less SIDs you add to the packet the better !</b> </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Yes
          that requires to be smart (or to have smart central
          controller) to add only a very few labels/SIDs to accomplish
          the network traffic distribution objectives. I clearly see
          folks thinking of SR-MPLS like a RSVP-TE analogy with EROs,
          but this is IMO fundamentally wrong. Only that you can do it
          (to build SR-MPLS paths all the way via your domain) does not
          make it a good idea. No where in SR architecture I see any
          pre-asssumption that last IGP segment will be connected to
          domain egress node (with the exception of EPE but this is
          different app).</div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">In
          fact as some may recall we are 17 years after RSVP-TE shipping
          code and only very few networks ever deployed it for all
          unicast traffic end to end for many reasons. Most folks used
          it for FRR or for hot spot bypass. </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Now
          as far as OAM sure it is great to have it both for IP networks
          and MPLS-LDP networks and SR-MPLS networks. Especially iOAM is
          very useful. But this is not really related to SR-MPLS
          architecture. </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">With
          that I think the draft makes set of assumptions which are far
          from how SR-MPLS should be deployed and this does make it
          rather problematic. It is just like draft describing use of
          BGP for data centers ... now everyone is using BGP for all
          data centers or even other types of networks regardless if
          this is even applicable or best choice for a given cluster
          scale they are building :). </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Counters
          are great, more counters are even better, but I fail to see
          the value for yet again counting traffic arriving via specific
          IGP segments when we are already counting packets arriving via
          given IGP topology. My recommendation would be to solve it for
          MPLS-LDP in MPLS WG first (which after all is one example
          where flooding domain wide labels in IGP replaces) and then
          SR-MPLS will inherit the same solution.</div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Cheers,</div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Robert.</div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Adrian
          Farrel <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a
              href="mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target="_blank"
              moz-do-not-send="true">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br>
            <br>
            I understand that you doubt that this thread will yield
            anything productive, but there are a couple of things you're
            raising that need to be nailed down.<br>
            <br>
            Probably the most important of these is the concern that you
            express that maintaining counters in the network goes
            against the beauty of the SR architecture because it means
            holding state at transit nodes. This seems to be a debate
            about the perfection of an architecture versus the
            manageability of the network. Don't get me wrong, I love a
            beautiful architecture, but only if the network can be
            operated successfully.<br>
            <br>
            So, we should start at the top of the document and work our
            way down. I assume that you don't have any issues with
            Section 1: it seems to say what you are saying about the
            statelessness of SR. Section 2 is probably where you start
            to be unhappy: it sets an objective (to be able to count
            packets per flow) and sets some requirements on any
            solution.<br>
            <br>
            That is, I think you believe that it is not necessary (or
            not desirable?) to count packets in an SR network and assign
            those counts to the SR paths that generated those packet
            flows. So the challenge for you is to say whether the
            problem described in Figure 1 is:<br>
            - not a concern in network management<br>
            - can be solved by other means without counting traffic at<br>
               transit nodes (Note Well that other ways of counting<br>
               traffic at transit nodes are still counting traffic at
            transit<br>
               nodes).<br>
            <br>
            But one other point I want to pick up on is your claim that
            "the draft also talks about needs to break an SR Path into
            sub-paths". Sub-paths that are achieved through an expansion
            of a Binding SID are just part of the landscape and (of
            course) thy have to be coped with. The draft doesn't
            introduce sub-paths, it just observes that they exist.<br>
            <br>
            Lastly, the conversation on the number of labels as a
            multiplier seems to have gotten out of hand. Why not just
            agree that you original statement of "increased by up to 3x"
            was an exaggeration?<br>
            <br>
            Cheers,<br>
            Adrian<br>
            <span class=""><br>
              &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
              &gt; From: Zafar Ali (zali) [mailto:<a
                href="mailto:zali@cisco.com" moz-do-not-send="true">zali@cisco.com</a>]<br>
              &gt; Sent: 20 November 2017 23:36<br>
              &gt; To: <a href="mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk"
                moz-do-not-send="true">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a><br>
              &gt; Cc: 'spring'; 'mpls'<br>
              &gt; Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels
              in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<br>
              &gt; accounting-for-sr-paths<br>
              &gt;<br>
            </span>
            <div>
              <div class="h5">&gt; Hi Adrian,<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; Some comments are provided in-line.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; Please note that, we all want to let this lingering
                tread die and follow-up on the<br>
                &gt; next steps noted during this email exchange. I will
                be happy to have a webEx call<br>
                &gt; and discuss it further, offline.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; Thanks<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; Regards … Zafar<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, "Adrian Farrel" &lt;<a
                  href="mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt;
                wrote:<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;     &gt;&gt;&gt; procedure (in
                draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths)
                that<br>
                &gt; breaks SR<br>
                &gt;     &gt;&gt;&gt; Architecture, highly unscalable
                and complicated to implement.<br>
                &gt;     &gt;&gt;<br>
                &gt;     &gt;&gt; [JD]  Do you have any evidence to
                justify any of your assertions, above?<br>
                &gt;     &gt;<br>
                &gt;     &gt; Please note that in
                draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths:<br>
                &gt;     &gt;<br>
                &gt;     &gt; •    The transit node needs to be able to
                recognize the special label, read<br>
                &gt;     &gt;        the SR Path Identification label
                and update the counter against such<br>
                &gt;     &gt;        “states”.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;    Possibly worth noting that existing devices
                are capable of maintaining many<br>
                &gt; counters and updating them at line speed.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;    Several people have noted that ipfix is a
                process used for accounting in<br>
                &gt; networks. That approach may have to find the bottom
                of stack and then match<br>
                &gt; the packet that follows.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;    Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve
                finding the bottom of stack and<br>
                &gt; hashing on the header of the payload.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;    Some hardware cannot perform either
                mechanism. This usually results from a<br>
                &gt; trade between low cost, high performance, and
                features. Generally you can't<br>
                &gt; have all three.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; The question is not about if the hardware is able
                to perform such operations but<br>
                &gt; regarding breaking the very beauty of SR – no
                states at the transit/ egress nodes.<br>
                &gt; In the context of label stack size explosion, the
                draft also talks about needs to<br>
                &gt; break an SR Path into sub-paths – thereby creating
                yet additional states in the<br>
                &gt; network for accounting reasons (see more detail on
                this in the following).<br>
                &gt; Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed for SDN – the
                architecture calls for<br>
                &gt; simplification of the network not adding complexity
                in the network fabric. Please<br>
                &gt; also note that a network may have a large number of
                SR Path, thereby creating<br>
                &gt; another dimension for scaling limitations.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; The proposed procedure also does not work for node
                protection in the network.<br>
                &gt; The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to
                implement procedure proposed in the<br>
                &gt; document; I am quoting from the draft.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; “When using extensions<br>
                &gt;    described in this document for traffic
                accounting and with node-<br>
                &gt;    protection enabled in the network, it is
                RECOMMENDED to make sure all<br>
                &gt;    the nodes in the network support the extension.”<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;     &gt; •    The draft proposes to push (up to) 3
                Labels for each segment in the SR<br>
                &gt;     &gt;        Path. That means that label stack
                is increased up to 3x times! This is a<br>
                &gt;     &gt;        serious a scaling issue.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;    John asked for evidence and you provided a
                misunderstanding or misreading<br>
                &gt; of our draft.<br>
                &gt; &gt;    The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels
                per SR Path (noting as John did,<br>
                &gt; that this is our own term).<br>
                &gt; &gt;    That is not what you say, so perhaps you
                could retract or provide a pointer to<br>
                &gt; the text.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;    Thus, "increased up to 3x times" applies
                only with the single case where the<br>
                &gt; imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the
                three label option is applied.<br>
                &gt; So, while  what you say is true, it is clearly (and
                wilfully?) exaggerating the<br>
                &gt; severity of impact, and it is doubtful that 
                4-label stack is actually a problem.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; There are many scenarios that will require
                SR-Path-Stats Labels (up to 3 labels) to<br>
                &gt; be present multiple times in the label stack. These
                scenarios are not uncommon.<br>
                &gt; The following scenarios as noted in the draft.<br>
              </div>
            </div>
            x`x&gt;<br>
            <div class="HOEnZb">
              <div class="h5">&gt;   “The head-end node SHOULD insert
                the SR-<br>
                &gt;    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack
                such that the nodes<br>
                &gt;    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier
                for accounting.  The<br>
                &gt;    SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multiple
                times in the label stack<br>
                &gt;    of a packet.”<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;  “It is possible to partially deploy this feature
                when not all the<br>
                &gt;    nodes in the network support the extensions
                defined in this document.<br>
                &gt;    In such scenarios, the special labels MUST NOT
                get exposed on the top<br>
                &gt;    of the label stack at a node that does not
                support the extensions<br>
                &gt;    defined in this document.  This may require
                multiple blocks of SR-<br>
                &gt;    Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the packet
                header.”<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt; •    The controller needs to keep track of
                transit node capability and<br>
                &gt;     &gt;       push the additional per-path labels,
                accordingly. I.e., the controller<br>
                &gt;     &gt;       also needs to maintain such
                information for the transit nodes.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;    In most cases, the controller/ingress only
                needs to care about the capabilities<br>
                &gt; of the egress nodes. That is, if the special
                purpose label reaches the top of the<br>
                &gt; stack it has to be able to handle it.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;    The only time when the transit node issue
                arises is when there is a small RLD.<br>
                &gt; That information may need to be known by the
                controller to enable correct ECMP<br>
                &gt; behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.<br>
                &gt; &gt;    If there is a desire to enable accounting
                at transit nodes with a small RLD then<br>
                &gt; the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and
                *that* means that the<br>
                &gt; controller has to be sensitive as to where in the
                network the special purpose<br>
                &gt; label will rise to the top of the stack.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;    It seems to me that:<br>
                &gt; &gt;    - Controllers are not particularly resource
                constrained: adding a flag per node<br>
                &gt; &gt;       (or even per link!) would not break any
                scaling behavior.<br>
                &gt; &gt;    - Adding another flag to the IGP alongside
                the RLD is not significant scaling<br>
                &gt; issue.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; The comment here was not so much related to scaling
                but was for adding<br>
                &gt; complexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you
                noted above and in the draft,<br>
                &gt; controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the
                following cases every time a<br>
                &gt; path needs to be computed (quoting some of the
                cases from the draft).<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; “When the head-end node<br>
                &gt;    inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the label
                stack, the place in the<br>
                &gt;    stack is decided based on whether the node where
                the special label<br>
                &gt;    gets exposed is capable of popping those
                labels.”<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; “While inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the
                head-end router MUST<br>
                &gt;    ensure that the labels are not exposed to the
                nodes that do not<br>
                &gt;    support them. “<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; “Because it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats
                labels are removed<br>
                &gt;    when they are found at the top of the label
                stack, the node imposing<br>
                &gt;    the label stack (the ingress) must know which
                nodes are capable of<br>
                &gt;    stripping the labels.”<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; In RLDC limitation cases, “To support traffic<br>
                &gt;    accounting in such cases it is necessary to
                insert the SR-Path-Stats<br>
                &gt;    Labels within the Readable Label Stack Depth
                Capability (RLDC) of the<br>
                &gt;    nodes in the SR path.”<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; “The head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-<br>
                &gt;    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack
                such that the nodes<br>
                &gt;    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier
                for accounting.”<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; “The special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top<br>
                &gt;    of the label stack at a node that does not
                support the extensions<br>
                &gt;    defined in this document.”<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; “If the egress has not indicated that it is capable
                of removing the<br>
                &gt;    SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT be
                placed at the bottom of<br>
                &gt;    the label stack.  In this case the SR-Path-Stats
                Labels SHOULD be<br>
                &gt;    placed at a point in the label stack such that
                they will be found at<br>
                &gt;    the top of stack by the latest node in the SR
                path that is capable of<br>
                &gt;    removing them. “<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; “SR paths may require large label stacks.  Some
                hardware platforms do<br>
                &gt;    not support creating such large label stacks
                (i.e., imposing a large<br>
                &gt;    number of labels at once).  To overcome this
                limitation sub-paths are<br>
                &gt;    created within the network, and Binding-SIDs are
                allocated to these<br>
                &gt;    sub-paths.” … which means controller/ ingress
                software need to also create/<br>
                &gt; install sub-paths.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                <br>
                <br>
                ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
              </div>
            </div>
            <div class="HOEnZb">
              <div class="h5">spring mailing list<br>
                <a href="mailto:spring@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
                <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring"
                  rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/spring</a><br>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
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</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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References: <CA+RyBmUHAkuA3o-LpHhMwCbkh0k+emt9OZ3B8Njj2h=jaasTZw@mail.gmail.com> <3B1EE673-044F-4E47-9C56-6FF360905C58@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE3047CEC9@NKGEML515-MBS.china.huawei.com> <CA+RyBmVC2OjEs-=1WsL13eBmycZtnYnM8ybSdmWhGPByLKNQfA@mail.gmail.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE3047D106@NKGEML515-MBS.china.huawei.com> <EF064624-CF4D-4B88-823E-DAB9957B9336@cisco.com> <MWHPR05MB35512AD68B9CE96E8A5E7255C72E0@MWHPR05MB3551.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <A9BFDECC-84A4-42E6-83CD-D09A2D48BA75@cisco.com> <189901d36076$aa76b4b0$ff641e10$@olddog.co.uk> <0EAD8CC9-8C65-4A78-896B-D96F42230020@cisco.com> <01de01d362f2$14766ef0$3d634cd0$@olddog.co.uk> <CA+b+ERmkHZe9BU-JZLWpOEcwAhPqx72Sw4-NyLgVjhzzfySdCQ@mail.gmail.com> <a928b0a7-726c-a885-ba3d-3aedb255ca64@nic.dtag.de>
To: Martin Horneffer <maho@nic.dtag.de>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/bh2McK2dIDEV7YHXgUzs6_I-tQY>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Wrt architecture - don=92t think one has to fit all needs. While some migrat=
e to SR from IP/LDP environment and pretty happy with what they have got tod=
ay, others come from a heavy traffic engineered one, with per LSP/node count=
ers that are mandatory from a network management prospective(and I believe t=
hat initial discussion had been triggered by such need).
There=92s no free lunch, additional requirements wrt counters will inevitabl=
y create more state, however if one doesn=92t need it, it must not be impose=
d.
If one is willing to deal(pay) with complexity - why shouldn=92t the technol=
ogy facilitate it?


Regards,
Jeff

> On Nov 22, 2017, at 08:33, Martin Horneffer <maho@nic.dtag.de> wrote:
>=20
> +1
>=20
> In other words, I confirm from an operators point of view that Robert got g=
ood network desing goals quite right. I also perfectly agree with the observ=
ations concerning the use of RSVP in the past.
>=20
> BR, Martin
>=20
>> Am 21.11.17 um 19:34 schrieb Robert Raszuk:
>> Hi Adrian,
>>=20
>> I am not going to defend beauty of any architecture. I think there is muc=
h bigger fundamental misunderstanding how in practice someone will use SR-MP=
LS and I think this is the root cause for this little thread and different p=
erspectives of its participants.=20
>>=20
>> So SR-MPLS is not RSVP-TE and there is no EROs. The set of SIDs are no mo=
re then hints on how to steer the packets within connection less paradigm (s=
ame as IP tunnel so to say with less encap overhead) via one or more of IGP s=
egments.=20
>>=20
>> The less SIDs you add to the packet the better !=20
>>=20
>> Yes that requires to be smart (or to have smart central controller) to ad=
d only a very few labels/SIDs to accomplish the network traffic distribution=
 objectives. I clearly see folks thinking of SR-MPLS like a RSVP-TE analogy w=
ith EROs,           but this is IMO fundamentally wrong. Only that you can d=
o it (to build SR-MPLS paths all the way via your domain) does not make it a=
 good idea. No where in SR architecture I see any pre-asssumption that last I=
GP segment will be connected to domain egress node (with the exception of EP=
E but this is different app).
>>=20
>> In fact as some may recall we are 17 years after RSVP-TE shipping code an=
d only very few networks ever deployed it for all unicast traffic end to end=
 for many reasons. Most folks used it for FRR or for hot spot bypass.=20
>>=20
>> Now as far as OAM sure it is great to have it both for IP networks and MP=
LS-LDP networks and SR-MPLS networks. Especially iOAM is very useful. But th=
is is not really related to SR-MPLS architecture.=20
>>=20
>> With that I think the draft makes set of assumptions which are far from h=
ow SR-MPLS should be deployed and this does make it rather problematic. It i=
s just like draft describing use of BGP for data centers ... now everyone is=
 using BGP for all data centers or even other types of networks regardless i=
f this is even applicable or best choice for a given cluster scale they are b=
uilding :).=20
>>=20
>> Counters are great, more counters are even better, but I fail to see the v=
alue for yet again counting traffic arriving via specific IGP segments when w=
e are already counting packets arriving via given IGP topology. My recommend=
ation would be to solve it for MPLS-LDP in MPLS WG first (which after all is=
 one example where flooding domain wide labels in IGP replaces) and then SR-=
MPLS will inherit the same solution.
>>=20
>> Cheers,
>> Robert.
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wro=
te:
>>> Hi,
>>>=20
>>> I understand that you doubt that this thread will yield anything product=
ive, but there are a couple of things you're raising that need to be nailed d=
own.
>>>=20
>>> Probably the most important of these is the concern that you express tha=
t maintaining counters in the network goes against the beauty of the SR arch=
itecture because it means holding state at transit nodes. This seems to be a=
 debate about the perfection of an architecture versus the manageability of t=
he network. Don't get me wrong, I love a beautiful architecture, but only if=
 the network can be operated successfully.
>>>=20
>>> So, we should start at the top of the document and work our way down. I a=
ssume that you don't have any issues with Section 1: it seems to say what yo=
u are saying about the statelessness of SR. Section 2 is probably where you s=
tart to be unhappy: it sets an objective (to be able to count packets per fl=
ow) and sets some requirements on any solution.
>>>=20
>>> That is, I think you believe that it is not necessary (or not desirable?=
) to count packets in an SR network and assign those counts to the SR paths t=
hat generated those packet flows. So the challenge for you is to say whether=
 the problem described in Figure 1 is:
>>> - not a concern in network management
>>> - can be solved by other means without counting traffic at
>>>    transit nodes (Note Well that other ways of counting
>>>    traffic at transit nodes are still counting traffic at transit
>>>    nodes).
>>>=20
>>> But one other point I want to pick up on is your claim that "the draft a=
lso talks about needs to break an SR Path into sub-paths". Sub-paths that ar=
e achieved through an expansion of a Binding SID are just part of the landsc=
ape and (of course) thy have to be coped with. The draft doesn't introduce s=
ub-paths, it just observes that they exist.
>>>=20
>>> Lastly, the conversation on the number of labels as a multiplier seems t=
o have gotten out of hand. Why not just agree that you original statement of=
 "increased by up to 3x" was an exaggeration?
>>>=20
>>> Cheers,
>>> Adrian
>>>=20
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: Zafar Ali (zali) [mailto:zali@cisco.com]
>>> > Sent: 20 November 2017 23:36
>>> > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk
>>> > Cc: 'spring'; 'mpls'
>>> > Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spr=
ing-traffic-
>>> > accounting-for-sr-paths
>>> >
>>> > Hi Adrian,
>>> >
>>> > Some comments are provided in-line.
>>> >
>>> > Please note that, we all want to let this lingering tread die and foll=
ow-up on the
>>> > next steps noted during this email exchange. I will be happy to have a=
 webEx call
>>> > and discuss it further, offline.
>>> >
>>> > Thanks
>>> >
>>> > Regards =85 Zafar
>>> >
>>> > On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > <snip>
>>> >
>>> >     >>> procedure (in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-pat=
hs) that
>>> > breaks SR
>>> >     >>> Architecture, highly unscalable and complicated to implement.
>>> >     >>
>>> >     >> [JD]  Do you have any evidence to justify any of your assertion=
s, above?
>>> >     >
>>> >     > Please note that in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr=
-paths:
>>> >     >
>>> >     > =95    The transit node needs to be able to recognize the specia=
l label, read
>>> >     >        the SR Path Identification label and update the counter a=
gainst such
>>> >     >        =93states=94.
>>> >
>>> > >    Possibly worth noting that existing devices are capable of mainta=
ining many
>>> > counters and updating them at line speed.
>>> >
>>> > >    Several people have noted that ipfix is a process used for accoun=
ting in
>>> > networks. That approach may have to find the bottom of stack and then m=
atch
>>> > the packet that follows.
>>> >
>>> > >    Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve finding the bottom of st=
ack and
>>> > hashing on the header of the payload.
>>> >
>>> > >    Some hardware cannot perform either mechanism. This usually resul=
ts from a
>>> > trade between low cost, high performance, and features. Generally you c=
an't
>>> > have all three.
>>> >
>>> > The question is not about if the hardware is able to perform such oper=
ations but
>>> > regarding breaking the very beauty of SR =96 no states at the transit/=
 egress nodes.
>>> > In the context of label stack size explosion, the draft also talks abo=
ut needs to
>>> > break an SR Path into sub-paths =96 thereby creating yet additional st=
ates in the
>>> > network for accounting reasons (see more detail on this in the followi=
ng).
>>> > Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed for SDN =96 the architecture calls fo=
r
>>> > simplification of the network not adding complexity in the network fab=
ric. Please
>>> > also note that a network may have a large number of SR Path, thereby c=
reating
>>> > another dimension for scaling limitations.
>>> >
>>> > The proposed procedure also does not work for node protection in the n=
etwork.
>>> > The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to implement procedure propo=
sed in the
>>> > document; I am quoting from the draft.
>>> >
>>> > =93When using extensions
>>> >    described in this document for traffic accounting and with node-
>>> >    protection enabled in the network, it is                 RECOMMENDE=
D to make sure all
>>> >    the nodes in the network support the extension.=94
>>> >
>>> > <snip>
>>> >
>>> >     > =95    The draft proposes to push (up to) 3 Labels for each segm=
ent in the SR
>>> >     >        Path. That means that label stack is increased up to 3x t=
imes! This is a
>>> >     >        serious a scaling issue.
>>> >
>>> > >    John asked for evidence and you provided a misunderstanding or mi=
sreading
>>> > of our draft.
>>> > >    The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels per SR Path (noting as=
 John did,
>>> > that this is our own term).
>>> > >    That is not what you say, so perhaps you could retract or provide=
 a pointer to
>>> > the text.
>>> >
>>> > >    Thus, "increased up to 3x times" applies only with the single cas=
e where the
>>> > imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the three label option=
 is applied.
>>> > So, while  what you say is true, it is clearly (and wilfully?) exagger=
ating the
>>> > severity of impact, and it is doubtful that                  4-label s=
tack is actually a problem.
>>> >
>>> > There are many scenarios that will require SR-Path-Stats Labels (up to=
 3 labels) to
>>> > be present multiple times in the label stack. These scenarios are not u=
ncommon.
>>> > The following scenarios as noted in the draft.
>>> x`x>
>>> >   =93The head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>>> >    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes=

>>> >    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.  T=
he
>>> >    SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multiple times in the label sta=
ck
>>> >    of a packet.=94
>>> >
>>> >  =93It is possible to partially deploy this feature when not all the
>>> >    nodes in the network support the extensions defined in this documen=
t.
>>> >    In such scenarios, the special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the t=
op
>>> >    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>>> >    defined in this document.  This may require multiple blocks of SR-
>>> >    Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the packet header.=94
>>> >
>>> > > =95    The controller needs to keep track of transit node capability=
 and
>>> >     >       push the additional per-path labels, accordingly. I.e., th=
e controller
>>> >     >       also needs to maintain such information for the transit no=
des.
>>> >
>>> > >    In most cases, the controller/ingress only needs to care about th=
e capabilities
>>> > of the egress nodes. That is, if the special purpose label reaches the=
 top of the
>>> > stack it has to be able to handle it.
>>> >
>>> > >    The only time when the transit node issue arises is when there is=
 a small RLD.
>>> > That information may need to be known by the controller to enable corr=
ect ECMP
>>> > behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.
>>> > >    If there is a desire to enable accounting at transit nodes with a=
 small RLD then
>>> > the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and *that* means that t=
he
>>> > controller has to be sensitive as to where in the network the special p=
urpose
>>> > label will rise to the top of the stack.
>>> >
>>> > >    It seems to me that:
>>> > >    - Controllers are not particularly resource constrained: adding a=
 flag per node
>>> > >       (or even per link!) would not break any scaling behavior.
>>> > >    - Adding another flag to the IGP alongside the RLD is not signifi=
cant scaling
>>> > issue.
>>> >
>>> > The comment here was not so much related to scaling but was for adding=

>>> > complexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you noted above and in t=
he draft,
>>> > controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the following cases ever=
y time a
>>> > path needs to be computed (quoting some of the cases from the draft).
>>> >
>>> > =93When the head-end node
>>> >    inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the label stack, the place in t=
he
>>> >    stack is decided based on whether the node where the special label
>>> >    gets exposed is capable of popping those labels.=94
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > =93While inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the head-end router MUST
>>> >    ensure that the labels are not exposed to the nodes that do not
>>> >    support them. =93
>>> >
>>> > =93Because it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats labels are removed
>>> >    when they are found at the top of the label stack, the node imposin=
g
>>> >    the label stack (the ingress) must know which nodes are capable of
>>> >    stripping the labels.=94
>>> >
>>> > In RLDC limitation cases, =93To support traffic
>>> >    accounting in such cases it is necessary to insert the SR-Path-Stat=
s
>>> >    Labels within the Readable Label Stack Depth Capability (RLDC) of t=
he
>>> >    nodes in the SR path.=94
>>> >
>>> > =93The head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>>> >    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes=

>>> >    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.=94=

>>> >
>>> > =93The special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top
>>> >    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>>> >    defined in this document.=94
>>> >
>>> > =93If the egress has not indicated that it is capable of removing the
>>> >    SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT be placed at the bottom of=

>>> >    the label stack.  In this case the SR-Path-Stats Labels SHOULD be
>>> >    placed at a point in the label stack such that they will be found a=
t
>>> >    the top of stack by the latest node in the SR path that is capable o=
f
>>> >    removing them. =93
>>> >
>>> > =93SR paths may require large label stacks.  Some hardware platforms d=
o
>>> >    not support creating such large label stacks (i.e., imposing a larg=
e
>>> >    number of labels at once).  To overcome this limitation sub-paths a=
re
>>> >    created within the network, and Binding-SIDs are allocated to these=

>>> >    sub-paths.=94 =85 which means controller/ ingress software need to a=
lso create/
>>> > install sub-paths.
>>> >
>>> > <snip>
>>> >
>>> >
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> spring mailing list
>>> spring@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
>> spring@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Wrt architecture - don=E2=80=99t think one h=
as to fit all needs. While some migrate to SR from IP/LDP environment and pr=
etty happy with what they have got today, others come from a heavy traffic e=
ngineered one, with per LSP/node counters that are mandatory from a network m=
anagement prospective(and I believe that initial discussion had been trigger=
ed by such need).<div>There=E2=80=99s no free lunch, additional requirements=
 wrt counters will inevitably create more state, however if one doesn=E2=80=99=
t need it, it must not be imposed.</div><div>If one is willing to deal(pay) w=
ith complexity - why shouldn=E2=80=99t the technology facilitate it?</div><d=
iv><br></div><div><br><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Regards,<div>Jeff</div>=
</div><div><br>On Nov 22, 2017, at 08:33, Martin Horneffer &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:maho@nic.dtag.de">maho@nic.dtag.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockqu=
ote type=3D"cite"><div>
 =20
    <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"=
>
 =20
 =20
    +1<br>
    <br>
    In other words, I confirm from an operators point of view that
    Robert got good network desing goals quite right. I also perfectly
    agree with the observations concerning the use of RSVP in the past.<br>
    <br>
    BR, Martin<br>
    <br>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">Am 21.11.17 um 19:34 schrieb Robert
      Raszuk:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:CA+b+ERmkHZe9BU-JZLWpOEcwAhPqx72Sw=
4-NyLgVjhzzfySdCQ@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small">Hi
          Adrian,</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small">I
          am not going to defend beauty of any architecture. I think
          there is much bigger fundamental misunderstanding how in
          practice someone will use SR-MPLS and I think this is the root
          cause for this little thread and different perspectives of its
          participants.&nbsp;</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small">So
          SR-MPLS is not RSVP-TE and there is no EROs. The set of SIDs
          are no more then hints on how to steer the packets within
          connection less paradigm (same as IP tunnel so to say with
          less encap overhead) via one or more of IGP segments.&nbsp;</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small"><b><br>
          </b></div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small"><b>The
            less SIDs you add to the packet the better !</b>&nbsp;</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small">Yes
          that requires to be smart (or to have smart central
          controller) to add only a very few labels/SIDs to accomplish
          the network traffic distribution objectives. I clearly see
          folks thinking of SR-MPLS like a RSVP-TE analogy with EROs,
          but this is IMO fundamentally wrong. Only that you can do it
          (to build SR-MPLS paths all the way via your domain) does not
          make it a good idea. No where in SR architecture I see any
          pre-asssumption that last IGP segment will be connected to
          domain egress node (with the exception of EPE but this is
          different app).</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small">In
          fact as some may recall we are 17 years after RSVP-TE shipping
          code and only very few networks ever deployed it for all
          unicast traffic end to end for many reasons. Most folks used
          it for FRR or for hot spot bypass.&nbsp;</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small">Now
          as far as OAM sure it is great to have it both for IP networks
          and MPLS-LDP networks and SR-MPLS networks. Especially iOAM is
          very useful. But this is not really related to SR-MPLS
          architecture.&nbsp;</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small">With
          that I think the draft makes set of assumptions which are far
          from how SR-MPLS should be deployed and this does make it
          rather problematic. It is just like draft describing use of
          BGP for data centers ... now everyone is using BGP for all
          data centers or even other types of networks regardless if
          this is even applicable or best choice for a given cluster
          scale they are building :).&nbsp;</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small">Counters
          are great, more counters are even better, but I fail to see
          the value for yet again counting traffic arriving via specific
          IGP segments when we are already counting packets arriving via
          given IGP topology. My recommendation would be to solve it for
          MPLS-LDP in MPLS WG first (which after all is one example
          where flooding domain wide labels in IGP replaces) and then
          SR-MPLS will inherit the same solution.</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small">Cheers,</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small">Robert.</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Adrian
          Farrel <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk=
" target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt;</sp=
an>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br>
            <br>
            I understand that you doubt that this thread will yield
            anything productive, but there are a couple of things you're
            raising that need to be nailed down.<br>
            <br>
            Probably the most important of these is the concern that you
            express that maintaining counters in the network goes
            against the beauty of the SR architecture because it means
            holding state at transit nodes. This seems to be a debate
            about the perfection of an architecture versus the
            manageability of the network. Don't get me wrong, I love a
            beautiful architecture, but only if the network can be
            operated successfully.<br>
            <br>
            So, we should start at the top of the document and work our
            way down. I assume that you don't have any issues with
            Section 1: it seems to say what you are saying about the
            statelessness of SR. Section 2 is probably where you start
            to be unhappy: it sets an objective (to be able to count
            packets per flow) and sets some requirements on any
            solution.<br>
            <br>
            That is, I think you believe that it is not necessary (or
            not desirable?) to count packets in an SR network and assign
            those counts to the SR paths that generated those packet
            flows. So the challenge for you is to say whether the
            problem described in Figure 1 is:<br>
            - not a concern in network management<br>
            - can be solved by other means without counting traffic at<br>
            &nbsp; &nbsp;transit nodes (Note Well that other ways of countin=
g<br>
            &nbsp; &nbsp;traffic at transit nodes are still counting traffic=
 at
            transit<br>
            &nbsp; &nbsp;nodes).<br>
            <br>
            But one other point I want to pick up on is your claim that
            "the draft also talks about needs to break an SR Path into
            sub-paths". Sub-paths that are achieved through an expansion
            of a Binding SID are just part of the landscape and (of
            course) thy have to be coped with. The draft doesn't
            introduce sub-paths, it just observes that they exist.<br>
            <br>
            Lastly, the conversation on the number of labels as a
            multiplier seems to have gotten out of hand. Why not just
            agree that you original statement of "increased by up to 3x"
            was an exaggeration?<br>
            <br>
            Cheers,<br>
            Adrian<br>
            <span class=3D""><br>
              &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
              &gt; From: Zafar Ali (zali) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cis=
co.com" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">zali@cisco.com</a>]<br>
              &gt; Sent: 20 November 2017 23:36<br>
              &gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" moz-do-not-sen=
d=3D"true">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a><br>
              &gt; Cc: 'spring'; 'mpls'<br>
              &gt; Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels
              in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<br>
              &gt; accounting-for-sr-paths<br>
              &gt;<br>
            </span>
            <div>
              <div class=3D"h5">&gt; Hi Adrian,<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; Some comments are provided in-line.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; Please note that, we all want to let this lingering
                tread die and follow-up on the<br>
                &gt; next steps noted during this email exchange. I will
                be happy to have a webEx call<br>
                &gt; and discuss it further, offline.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; Thanks<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, "Adrian Farrel" &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&g=
t;
                wrote:<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt; procedure (in
                draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths)
                that<br>
                &gt; breaks SR<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt; Architecture, highly un=
scalable
                and complicated to implement.<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;&gt;<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;&gt; [JD]&nbsp; Do you have any e=
vidence to
                justify any of your assertions, above?<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; Please note that in
                draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths:<br>=

                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; =E2=80=A2&nbsp; &nbsp; The tran=
sit node needs to be able to
                recognize the special label, read<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the S=
R Path Identification label
                and update the counter against such<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=
=9Cstates=E2=80=9D.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Possibly worth noting that existing d=
evices
                are capable of maintaining many<br>
                &gt; counters and updating them at line speed.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Several people have noted that ipfix i=
s a
                process used for accounting in<br>
                &gt; networks. That approach may have to find the bottom
                of stack and then match<br>
                &gt; the packet that follows.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) invo=
lve
                finding the bottom of stack and<br>
                &gt; hashing on the header of the payload.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Some hardware cannot perform either
                mechanism. This usually results from a<br>
                &gt; trade between low cost, high performance, and
                features. Generally you can't<br>
                &gt; have all three.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; The question is not about if the hardware is able
                to perform such operations but<br>
                &gt; regarding breaking the very beauty of SR =E2=80=93 no
                states at the transit/ egress nodes.<br>
                &gt; In the context of label stack size explosion, the
                draft also talks about needs to<br>
                &gt; break an SR Path into sub-paths =E2=80=93 thereby creat=
ing
                yet additional states in the<br>
                &gt; network for accounting reasons (see more detail on
                this in the following).<br>
                &gt; Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed for SDN =E2=80=93 the
                architecture calls for<br>
                &gt; simplification of the network not adding complexity
                in the network fabric. Please<br>
                &gt; also note that a network may have a large number of
                SR Path, thereby creating<br>
                &gt; another dimension for scaling limitations.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; The proposed procedure also does not work for node
                protection in the network.<br>
                &gt; The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to
                implement procedure proposed in the<br>
                &gt; document; I am quoting from the draft.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CWhen using extensions<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; described in this document for traffic
                accounting and with node-<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; protection enabled in the network, it is
                RECOMMENDED to make sure all<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; the nodes in the network support the exten=
sion.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; =E2=80=A2&nbsp; &nbsp; The draf=
t proposes to push (up to) 3
                Labels for each segment in the SR<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Path=
. That means that label stack
                is increased up to 3x times! This is a<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; seri=
ous a scaling issue.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; John asked for evidence and you provi=
ded a
                misunderstanding or misreading<br>
                &gt; of our draft.<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; The document proposes adding 2 or 3 l=
abels
                per SR Path (noting as John did,<br>
                &gt; that this is our own term).<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; That is not what you say, so perhaps y=
ou
                could retract or provide a pointer to<br>
                &gt; the text.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Thus, "increased up to 3x times" appl=
ies
                only with the single case where the<br>
                &gt; imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the
                three label option is applied.<br>
                &gt; So, while&nbsp; what you say is true, it is clearly (an=
d
                wilfully?) exaggerating the<br>
                &gt; severity of impact, and it is doubtful that&nbsp;
                4-label stack is actually a problem.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; There are many scenarios that will require
                SR-Path-Stats Labels (up to 3 labels) to<br>
                &gt; be present multiple times in the label stack. These
                scenarios are not uncommon.<br>
                &gt; The following scenarios as noted in the draft.<br>
              </div>
            </div>
            x`x&gt;<br>
            <div class=3D"HOEnZb">
              <div class=3D"h5">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;=E2=80=9CThe head-end node S=
HOULD insert
                the SR-<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label s=
tack
                such that the nodes<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Iden=
tifier
                for accounting.&nbsp; The<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multip=
le
                times in the label stack<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; of a packet.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; =E2=80=9CIt is possible to partially deploy this f=
eature
                when not all the<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; nodes in the network support the extension=
s
                defined in this document.<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; In such scenarios, the special labels MUST=
 NOT
                get exposed on the top<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; of the label stack at a node that does not=

                support the extensions<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; defined in this document.&nbsp; This may r=
equire
                multiple blocks of SR-<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the pa=
cket
                header.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt; =E2=80=A2&nbsp; &nbsp; The controller needs to kee=
p track of
                transit node capability and<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;push t=
he additional per-path labels,
                accordingly. I.e., the controller<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;also n=
eeds to maintain such
                information for the transit nodes.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; In most cases, the controller/ingress=
 only
                needs to care about the capabilities<br>
                &gt; of the egress nodes. That is, if the special
                purpose label reaches the top of the<br>
                &gt; stack it has to be able to handle it.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; The only time when the transit node i=
ssue
                arises is when there is a small RLD.<br>
                &gt; That information may need to be known by the
                controller to enable correct ECMP<br>
                &gt; behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; If there is a desire to enable accoun=
ting
                at transit nodes with a small RLD then<br>
                &gt; the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and
                *that* means that the<br>
                &gt; controller has to be sensitive as to where in the
                network the special purpose<br>
                &gt; label will rise to the top of the stack.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; It seems to me that:<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; - Controllers are not particularly re=
source
                constrained: adding a flag per node<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(or even per link!) woul=
d not break any
                scaling behavior.<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; - Adding another flag to the IGP alon=
gside
                the RLD is not significant scaling<br>
                &gt; issue.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; The comment here was not so much related to scaling
                but was for adding<br>
                &gt; complexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you
                noted above and in the draft,<br>
                &gt; controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the
                following cases every time a<br>
                &gt; path needs to be computed (quoting some of the
                cases from the draft).<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CWhen the head-end node<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the la=
bel
                stack, the place in the<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; stack is decided based on whether the node=
 where
                the special label<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; gets exposed is capable of popping those
                labels.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CWhile inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the
                head-end router MUST<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; ensure that the labels are not exposed to t=
he
                nodes that do not<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; support them. =E2=80=9C<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CBecause it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats=

                labels are removed<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; when they are found at the top of the labe=
l
                stack, the node imposing<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; the label stack (the ingress) must know wh=
ich
                nodes are capable of<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; stripping the labels.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; In RLDC limitation cases, =E2=80=9CTo support traffic<b=
r>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; accounting in such cases it is necessary t=
o
                insert the SR-Path-Stats<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Labels within the Readable Label Stack Dep=
th
                Capability (RLDC) of the<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; nodes in the SR path.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label s=
tack
                such that the nodes<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Iden=
tifier
                for accounting.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CThe special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the=
 top<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; of the label stack at a node that does not=

                support the extensions<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; defined in this document.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CIf the egress has not indicated that it is cap=
able
                of removing the<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT b=
e
                placed at the bottom of<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; the label stack.&nbsp; In this case the SR=
-Path-Stats
                Labels SHOULD be<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; placed at a point in the label stack such t=
hat
                they will be found at<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; the top of stack by the latest node in the=
 SR
                path that is capable of<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; removing them. =E2=80=9C<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CSR paths may require large label stacks.&nbsp;=
 Some
                hardware platforms do<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; not support creating such large label stac=
ks
                (i.e., imposing a large<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; number of labels at once).&nbsp; To overco=
me this
                limitation sub-paths are<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; created within the network, and Binding-SI=
Ds are
                allocated to these<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; sub-paths.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 which means c=
ontroller/ ingress
                software need to also create/<br>
                &gt; install sub-paths.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                <br>
                <br>
                ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
              </div>
            </div>
            <div class=3D"HOEnZb">
              <div class=3D"h5">spring mailing list<br>
                <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">=
spring@ietf.org</a><br>
                <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/spring</a><br>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class=3D"mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap=3D"">_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring=
@ietf.org</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list=
info/spring">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
 =20

</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>mpls mailing list</span><br><spa=
n><a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a></span><br><span><a href=
=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls">https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/mpls</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div></body></html>=

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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 22:17:30 +0100
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To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Martin Horneffer <maho@nic.dtag.de>, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>,  mpls <mpls@ietf.org>,  spring <spring@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Jeff,

> however if one doesn=E2=80=99t need it, it must not be imposed.

Sorry but ASICs do not work that way ... They are not software with options
which one can enable or not based on their wish of the day.

But if you issue a RFC which complicates things and imposes new hardware
requirements those will result in an avalanche effect on the technology in
question. And I would be very supportive of adding more management and
accounting ability if there would not be already a way to accomplish the
same as described previously in this thread.

Cheers,
Robert.


On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 10:08 PM, Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Wrt architecture - don=E2=80=99t think one has to fit all needs. While so=
me
> migrate to SR from IP/LDP environment and pretty happy with what they hav=
e
> got today, others come from a heavy traffic engineered one, with per
> LSP/node counters that are mandatory from a network management
> prospective(and I believe that initial discussion had been triggered by
> such need).
> There=E2=80=99s no free lunch, additional requirements wrt counters will
> inevitably create more state, however if one doesn=E2=80=99t need it, it =
must not
> be imposed.
> If one is willing to deal(pay) with complexity - why shouldn=E2=80=99t th=
e
> technology facilitate it?
>
>
> Regards,
> Jeff
>
> On Nov 22, 2017, at 08:33, Martin Horneffer <maho@nic.dtag.de> wrote:
>
> +1
>
> In other words, I confirm from an operators point of view that Robert got
> good network desing goals quite right. I also perfectly agree with the
> observations concerning the use of RSVP in the past.
>
> BR, Martin
>
> Am 21.11.17 um 19:34 schrieb Robert Raszuk:
>
> Hi Adrian,
>
> I am not going to defend beauty of any architecture. I think there is muc=
h
> bigger fundamental misunderstanding how in practice someone will use
> SR-MPLS and I think this is the root cause for this little thread and
> different perspectives of its participants.
>
> So SR-MPLS is not RSVP-TE and there is no EROs. The set of SIDs are no
> more then hints on how to steer the packets within connection less paradi=
gm
> (same as IP tunnel so to say with less encap overhead) via one or more of
> IGP segments.
>
> *The less SIDs you add to the packet the better !*
>
> Yes that requires to be smart (or to have smart central controller) to ad=
d
> only a very few labels/SIDs to accomplish the network traffic distributio=
n
> objectives. I clearly see folks thinking of SR-MPLS like a RSVP-TE analog=
y
> with EROs, but this is IMO fundamentally wrong. Only that you can do it (=
to
> build SR-MPLS paths all the way via your domain) does not make it a good
> idea. No where in SR architecture I see any pre-asssumption that last IGP
> segment will be connected to domain egress node (with the exception of EP=
E
> but this is different app).
>
> In fact as some may recall we are 17 years after RSVP-TE shipping code an=
d
> only very few networks ever deployed it for all unicast traffic end to en=
d
> for many reasons. Most folks used it for FRR or for hot spot bypass.
>
> Now as far as OAM sure it is great to have it both for IP networks and
> MPLS-LDP networks and SR-MPLS networks. Especially iOAM is very useful. B=
ut
> this is not really related to SR-MPLS architecture.
>
> With that I think the draft makes set of assumptions which are far from
> how SR-MPLS should be deployed and this does make it rather problematic. =
It
> is just like draft describing use of BGP for data centers ... now everyon=
e
> is using BGP for all data centers or even other types of networks
> regardless if this is even applicable or best choice for a given cluster
> scale they are building :).
>
> Counters are great, more counters are even better, but I fail to see the
> value for yet again counting traffic arriving via specific IGP segments
> when we are already counting packets arriving via given IGP topology. My
> recommendation would be to solve it for MPLS-LDP in MPLS WG first (which
> after all is one example where flooding domain wide labels in IGP replace=
s)
> and then SR-MPLS will inherit the same solution.
>
> Cheers,
> Robert.
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I understand that you doubt that this thread will yield anything
>> productive, but there are a couple of things you're raising that need to=
 be
>> nailed down.
>>
>> Probably the most important of these is the concern that you express tha=
t
>> maintaining counters in the network goes against the beauty of the SR
>> architecture because it means holding state at transit nodes. This seems=
 to
>> be a debate about the perfection of an architecture versus the
>> manageability of the network. Don't get me wrong, I love a beautiful
>> architecture, but only if the network can be operated successfully.
>>
>> So, we should start at the top of the document and work our way down. I
>> assume that you don't have any issues with Section 1: it seems to say wh=
at
>> you are saying about the statelessness of SR. Section 2 is probably wher=
e
>> you start to be unhappy: it sets an objective (to be able to count packe=
ts
>> per flow) and sets some requirements on any solution.
>>
>> That is, I think you believe that it is not necessary (or not desirable?=
)
>> to count packets in an SR network and assign those counts to the SR path=
s
>> that generated those packet flows. So the challenge for you is to say
>> whether the problem described in Figure 1 is:
>> - not a concern in network management
>> - can be solved by other means without counting traffic at
>>    transit nodes (Note Well that other ways of counting
>>    traffic at transit nodes are still counting traffic at transit
>>    nodes).
>>
>> But one other point I want to pick up on is your claim that "the draft
>> also talks about needs to break an SR Path into sub-paths". Sub-paths th=
at
>> are achieved through an expansion of a Binding SID are just part of the
>> landscape and (of course) thy have to be coped with. The draft doesn't
>> introduce sub-paths, it just observes that they exist.
>>
>> Lastly, the conversation on the number of labels as a multiplier seems t=
o
>> have gotten out of hand. Why not just agree that you original statement =
of
>> "increased by up to 3x" was an exaggeration?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Adrian
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Zafar Ali (zali) [mailto:zali@cisco.com]
>> > Sent: 20 November 2017 23:36
>> > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk
>> > Cc: 'spring'; 'mpls'
>> > Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
>> > accounting-for-sr-paths
>> >
>> > Hi Adrian,
>> >
>> > Some comments are provided in-line.
>> >
>> > Please note that, we all want to let this lingering tread die and
>> follow-up on the
>> > next steps noted during this email exchange. I will be happy to have a
>> webEx call
>> > and discuss it further, offline.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> > Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>> >
>> > On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> >     >>> procedure (in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-pat=
hs)
>> that
>> > breaks SR
>> >     >>> Architecture, highly unscalable and complicated to implement.
>> >     >>
>> >     >> [JD]  Do you have any evidence to justify any of your
>> assertions, above?
>> >     >
>> >     > Please note that in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc
>> ounting-for-sr-paths:
>> >     >
>> >     > =E2=80=A2    The transit node needs to be able to recognize the =
special
>> label, read
>> >     >        the SR Path Identification label and update the counter
>> against such
>> >     >        =E2=80=9Cstates=E2=80=9D.
>> >
>> > >    Possibly worth noting that existing devices are capable of
>> maintaining many
>> > counters and updating them at line speed.
>> >
>> > >    Several people have noted that ipfix is a process used for
>> accounting in
>> > networks. That approach may have to find the bottom of stack and then
>> match
>> > the packet that follows.
>> >
>> > >    Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve finding the bottom of
>> stack and
>> > hashing on the header of the payload.
>> >
>> > >    Some hardware cannot perform either mechanism. This usually
>> results from a
>> > trade between low cost, high performance, and features. Generally you
>> can't
>> > have all three.
>> >
>> > The question is not about if the hardware is able to perform such
>> operations but
>> > regarding breaking the very beauty of SR =E2=80=93 no states at the tr=
ansit/
>> egress nodes.
>> > In the context of label stack size explosion, the draft also talks
>> about needs to
>> > break an SR Path into sub-paths =E2=80=93 thereby creating yet additio=
nal
>> states in the
>> > network for accounting reasons (see more detail on this in the
>> following).
>> > Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed for SDN =E2=80=93 the architecture ca=
lls for
>> > simplification of the network not adding complexity in the network
>> fabric. Please
>> > also note that a network may have a large number of SR Path, thereby
>> creating
>> > another dimension for scaling limitations.
>> >
>> > The proposed procedure also does not work for node protection in the
>> network.
>> > The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to implement procedure
>> proposed in the
>> > document; I am quoting from the draft.
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CWhen using extensions
>> >    described in this document for traffic accounting and with node-
>> >    protection enabled in the network, it is RECOMMENDED to make sure a=
ll
>> >    the nodes in the network support the extension.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> >     > =E2=80=A2    The draft proposes to push (up to) 3 Labels for eac=
h segment
>> in the SR
>> >     >        Path. That means that label stack is increased up to 3x
>> times! This is a
>> >     >        serious a scaling issue.
>> >
>> > >    John asked for evidence and you provided a misunderstanding or
>> misreading
>> > of our draft.
>> > >    The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels per SR Path (noting as
>> John did,
>> > that this is our own term).
>> > >    That is not what you say, so perhaps you could retract or provide
>> a pointer to
>> > the text.
>> >
>> > >    Thus, "increased up to 3x times" applies only with the single cas=
e
>> where the
>> > imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the three label option
>> is applied.
>> > So, while  what you say is true, it is clearly (and wilfully?)
>> exaggerating the
>> > severity of impact, and it is doubtful that  4-label stack is actually
>> a problem.
>> >
>> > There are many scenarios that will require SR-Path-Stats Labels (up to
>> 3 labels) to
>> > be present multiple times in the label stack. These scenarios are not
>> uncommon.
>> > The following scenarios as noted in the draft.
>> x`x>
>> >   =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>> >    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes
>> >    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.  T=
he
>> >    SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multiple times in the label sta=
ck
>> >    of a packet.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> >  =E2=80=9CIt is possible to partially deploy this feature when not all=
 the
>> >    nodes in the network support the extensions defined in this documen=
t.
>> >    In such scenarios, the special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the t=
op
>> >    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>> >    defined in this document.  This may require multiple blocks of SR-
>> >    Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the packet header.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> > > =E2=80=A2    The controller needs to keep track of transit node capa=
bility and
>> >     >       push the additional per-path labels, accordingly. I.e., th=
e
>> controller
>> >     >       also needs to maintain such information for the transit
>> nodes.
>> >
>> > >    In most cases, the controller/ingress only needs to care about th=
e
>> capabilities
>> > of the egress nodes. That is, if the special purpose label reaches the
>> top of the
>> > stack it has to be able to handle it.
>> >
>> > >    The only time when the transit node issue arises is when there is
>> a small RLD.
>> > That information may need to be known by the controller to enable
>> correct ECMP
>> > behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.
>> > >    If there is a desire to enable accounting at transit nodes with a
>> small RLD then
>> > the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and *that* means that
>> the
>> > controller has to be sensitive as to where in the network the special
>> purpose
>> > label will rise to the top of the stack.
>> >
>> > >    It seems to me that:
>> > >    - Controllers are not particularly resource constrained: adding a
>> flag per node
>> > >       (or even per link!) would not break any scaling behavior.
>> > >    - Adding another flag to the IGP alongside the RLD is not
>> significant scaling
>> > issue.
>> >
>> > The comment here was not so much related to scaling but was for adding
>> > complexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you noted above and in
>> the draft,
>> > controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the following cases ever=
y
>> time a
>> > path needs to be computed (quoting some of the cases from the draft).
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CWhen the head-end node
>> >    inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the label stack, the place in t=
he
>> >    stack is decided based on whether the node where the special label
>> >    gets exposed is capable of popping those labels.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CWhile inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the head-end router=
 MUST
>> >    ensure that the labels are not exposed to the nodes that do not
>> >    support them. =E2=80=9C
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CBecause it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats labels are rem=
oved
>> >    when they are found at the top of the label stack, the node imposin=
g
>> >    the label stack (the ingress) must know which nodes are capable of
>> >    stripping the labels.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> > In RLDC limitation cases, =E2=80=9CTo support traffic
>> >    accounting in such cases it is necessary to insert the SR-Path-Stat=
s
>> >    Labels within the Readable Label Stack Depth Capability (RLDC) of t=
he
>> >    nodes in the SR path.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>> >    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes
>> >    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.=E2=
=80=9D
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CThe special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top
>> >    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>> >    defined in this document.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CIf the egress has not indicated that it is capable of removin=
g the
>> >    SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT be placed at the bottom of
>> >    the label stack.  In this case the SR-Path-Stats Labels SHOULD be
>> >    placed at a point in the label stack such that they will be found a=
t
>> >    the top of stack by the latest node in the SR path that is capable =
of
>> >    removing them. =E2=80=9C
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CSR paths may require large label stacks.  Some hardware platf=
orms do
>> >    not support creating such large label stacks (i.e., imposing a larg=
e
>> >    number of labels at once).  To overcome this limitation sub-paths a=
re
>> >    created within the network, and Binding-SIDs are allocated to these
>> >    sub-paths.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 which means controller/ ingress softw=
are need to also
>> create/
>> > install sub-paths.
>> >
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
>> spring@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing listspring@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/s=
pring
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Jeff,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
 style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:small"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:1=
2.8px">&gt; however if one doesn=E2=80=99t need it, it must not be imposed.=
</span><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-s=
erif;font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style=3D"=
font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">Sorry but ASICs do not work =
that way ... They are not software with options which one can enable or not=
 based on their wish of the day.=C2=A0</span></div><div class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span=
 style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif=
;font-size:small"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.=
8px">But if you issue a RFC which complicates things and imposes new hardwa=
re requirements those will result in an avalanche effect on the technology =
in question. And I would be very supportive of adding more management and a=
ccounting ability if there would not be already a way to accomplish the sam=
e as described previously in this thread.=C2=A0</span></div><div class=3D"g=
mail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:sma=
ll"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br></spa=
n></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font=
-size:12.8px">Cheers,</span></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">Robert.</span></div><div class=3D"g=
mail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:sma=
ll"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br></spa=
n></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On =
Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 10:08 PM, Jeff Tantsura <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jefftant.ietf@gmail.c=
om</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto=
">Wrt architecture - don=E2=80=99t think one has to fit all needs. While so=
me migrate to SR from IP/LDP environment and pretty happy with what they ha=
ve got today, others come from a heavy traffic engineered one, with per LSP=
/node counters that are mandatory from a network management prospective(and=
 I believe that initial discussion had been triggered by such need).<div>Th=
ere=E2=80=99s no free lunch, additional requirements wrt counters will inev=
itably create more state, however if one doesn=E2=80=99t need it, it must n=
ot be imposed.</div><div>If one is willing to deal(pay) with complexity - w=
hy shouldn=E2=80=99t the technology facilitate it?</div><div><br></div><div=
><br><div id=3D"m_-1706617167193872311AppleMailSignature">Regards,<div>Jeff=
</div></div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br>On Nov 22, 2017, at 08:33, Mart=
in Horneffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:maho@nic.dtag.de" target=3D"_blank">maho=
@nic.dtag.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>
 =20
   =20
 =20
 =20
    +1<br>
    <br>
    In other words, I confirm from an operators point of view that
    Robert got good network desing goals quite right. I also perfectly
    agree with the observations concerning the use of RSVP in the past.<br>
    <br>
    BR, Martin<br>
    <br>
    <div class=3D"m_-1706617167193872311moz-cite-prefix">Am 21.11.17 um 19:=
34 schrieb Robert
      Raszuk:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small">Hi
          Adrian,</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small">I
          am not going to defend beauty of any architecture. I think
          there is much bigger fundamental misunderstanding how in
          practice someone will use SR-MPLS and I think this is the root
          cause for this little thread and different perspectives of its
          participants.=C2=A0</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small">So
          SR-MPLS is not RSVP-TE and there is no EROs. The set of SIDs
          are no more then hints on how to steer the packets within
          connection less paradigm (same as IP tunnel so to say with
          less encap overhead) via one or more of IGP segments.=C2=A0</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small"><b><br>
          </b></div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small"><b>The
            less SIDs you add to the packet the better !</b>=C2=A0</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small">Yes
          that requires to be smart (or to have smart central
          controller) to add only a very few labels/SIDs to accomplish
          the network traffic distribution objectives. I clearly see
          folks thinking of SR-MPLS like a RSVP-TE analogy with EROs,
          but this is IMO fundamentally wrong. Only that you can do it
          (to build SR-MPLS paths all the way via your domain) does not
          make it a good idea. No where in SR architecture I see any
          pre-asssumption that last IGP segment will be connected to
          domain egress node (with the exception of EPE but this is
          different app).</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small">In
          fact as some may recall we are 17 years after RSVP-TE shipping
          code and only very few networks ever deployed it for all
          unicast traffic end to end for many reasons. Most folks used
          it for FRR or for hot spot bypass.=C2=A0</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small">Now
          as far as OAM sure it is great to have it both for IP networks
          and MPLS-LDP networks and SR-MPLS networks. Especially iOAM is
          very useful. But this is not really related to SR-MPLS
          architecture.=C2=A0</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small">With
          that I think the draft makes set of assumptions which are far
          from how SR-MPLS should be deployed and this does make it
          rather problematic. It is just like draft describing use of
          BGP for data centers ... now everyone is using BGP for all
          data centers or even other types of networks regardless if
          this is even applicable or best choice for a given cluster
          scale they are building :).=C2=A0</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small">Counters
          are great, more counters are even better, but I fail to see
          the value for yet again counting traffic arriving via specific
          IGP segments when we are already counting packets arriving via
          given IGP topology. My recommendation would be to solve it for
          MPLS-LDP in MPLS WG first (which after all is one example
          where flooding domain wide labels in IGP replaces) and then
          SR-MPLS will inherit the same solution.</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small">Cheers,</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small">Robert.</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Adrian
          Farrel <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.u=
k" target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br>
            <br>
            I understand that you doubt that this thread will yield
            anything productive, but there are a couple of things you&#39;r=
e
            raising that need to be nailed down.<br>
            <br>
            Probably the most important of these is the concern that you
            express that maintaining counters in the network goes
            against the beauty of the SR architecture because it means
            holding state at transit nodes. This seems to be a debate
            about the perfection of an architecture versus the
            manageability of the network. Don&#39;t get me wrong, I love a
            beautiful architecture, but only if the network can be
            operated successfully.<br>
            <br>
            So, we should start at the top of the document and work our
            way down. I assume that you don&#39;t have any issues with
            Section 1: it seems to say what you are saying about the
            statelessness of SR. Section 2 is probably where you start
            to be unhappy: it sets an objective (to be able to count
            packets per flow) and sets some requirements on any
            solution.<br>
            <br>
            That is, I think you believe that it is not necessary (or
            not desirable?) to count packets in an SR network and assign
            those counts to the SR paths that generated those packet
            flows. So the challenge for you is to say whether the
            problem described in Figure 1 is:<br>
            - not a concern in network management<br>
            - can be solved by other means without counting traffic at<br>
            =C2=A0 =C2=A0transit nodes (Note Well that other ways of counti=
ng<br>
            =C2=A0 =C2=A0traffic at transit nodes are still counting traffi=
c at
            transit<br>
            =C2=A0 =C2=A0nodes).<br>
            <br>
            But one other point I want to pick up on is your claim that
            &quot;the draft also talks about needs to break an SR Path into
            sub-paths&quot;. Sub-paths that are achieved through an expansi=
on
            of a Binding SID are just part of the landscape and (of
            course) thy have to be coped with. The draft doesn&#39;t
            introduce sub-paths, it just observes that they exist.<br>
            <br>
            Lastly, the conversation on the number of labels as a
            multiplier seems to have gotten out of hand. Why not just
            agree that you original statement of &quot;increased by up to 3=
x&quot;
            was an exaggeration?<br>
            <br>
            Cheers,<br>
            Adrian<br>
            <span><br>
              &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
              &gt; From: Zafar Ali (zali) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:zali@ci=
sco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>]<br>
              &gt; Sent: 20 November 2017 23:36<br>
              &gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_bl=
ank">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a><br>
              &gt; Cc: &#39;spring&#39;; &#39;mpls&#39;<br>
              &gt; Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels
              in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<br>
              &gt; accounting-for-sr-paths<br>
              &gt;<br>
            </span>
            <div>
              <div class=3D"m_-1706617167193872311h5">&gt; Hi Adrian,<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; Some comments are provided in-line.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; Please note that, we all want to let this lingering
                tread die and follow-up on the<br>
                &gt; next steps noted during this email exchange. I will
                be happy to have a webEx call<br>
                &gt; and discuss it further, offline.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; Thanks<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, &quot;Adrian Farrel&quot; &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddog.co.uk<=
/a>&gt;
                wrote:<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; procedure (in
                draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths)
                that<br>
                &gt; breaks SR<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Architecture, highly u=
nscalable
                and complicated to implement.<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; [JD]=C2=A0 Do you have any=
 evidence to
                justify any of your assertions, above?<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Please note that in
                draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths:<br=
>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The tra=
nsit node needs to be able to
                recognize the special label, read<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the=
 SR Path Identification label
                and update the counter against such<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=
=80=9Cstates=E2=80=9D.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Possibly worth noting that existing =
devices
                are capable of maintaining many<br>
                &gt; counters and updating them at line speed.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Several people have noted that ipfix=
 is a
                process used for accounting in<br>
                &gt; networks. That approach may have to find the bottom
                of stack and then match<br>
                &gt; the packet that follows.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) inv=
olve
                finding the bottom of stack and<br>
                &gt; hashing on the header of the payload.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Some hardware cannot perform either
                mechanism. This usually results from a<br>
                &gt; trade between low cost, high performance, and
                features. Generally you can&#39;t<br>
                &gt; have all three.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; The question is not about if the hardware is able
                to perform such operations but<br>
                &gt; regarding breaking the very beauty of SR =E2=80=93 no
                states at the transit/ egress nodes.<br>
                &gt; In the context of label stack size explosion, the
                draft also talks about needs to<br>
                &gt; break an SR Path into sub-paths =E2=80=93 thereby crea=
ting
                yet additional states in the<br>
                &gt; network for accounting reasons (see more detail on
                this in the following).<br>
                &gt; Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed for SDN =E2=80=93 the
                architecture calls for<br>
                &gt; simplification of the network not adding complexity
                in the network fabric. Please<br>
                &gt; also note that a network may have a large number of
                SR Path, thereby creating<br>
                &gt; another dimension for scaling limitations.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; The proposed procedure also does not work for node
                protection in the network.<br>
                &gt; The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to
                implement procedure proposed in the<br>
                &gt; document; I am quoting from the draft.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CWhen using extensions<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 described in this document for traffic
                accounting and with node-<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 protection enabled in the network, it is
                RECOMMENDED to make sure all<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the nodes in the network support the exte=
nsion.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The dra=
ft proposes to push (up to) 3
                Labels for each segment in the SR<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pat=
h. That means that label stack
                is increased up to 3x times! This is a<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ser=
ious a scaling issue.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 John asked for evidence and you prov=
ided a
                misunderstanding or misreading<br>
                &gt; of our draft.<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The document proposes adding 2 or 3 =
labels
                per SR Path (noting as John did,<br>
                &gt; that this is our own term).<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 That is not what you say, so perhaps=
 you
                could retract or provide a pointer to<br>
                &gt; the text.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thus, &quot;increased up to 3x times=
&quot; applies
                only with the single case where the<br>
                &gt; imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the
                three label option is applied.<br>
                &gt; So, while=C2=A0 what you say is true, it is clearly (a=
nd
                wilfully?) exaggerating the<br>
                &gt; severity of impact, and it is doubtful that=C2=A0
                4-label stack is actually a problem.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; There are many scenarios that will require
                SR-Path-Stats Labels (up to 3 labels) to<br>
                &gt; be present multiple times in the label stack. These
                scenarios are not uncommon.<br>
                &gt; The following scenarios as noted in the draft.<br>
              </div>
            </div>
            x`x&gt;<br>
            <div class=3D"m_-1706617167193872311HOEnZb">
              <div class=3D"m_-1706617167193872311h5">&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=
=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert
                the SR-<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label=
 stack
                such that the nodes<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Ide=
ntifier
                for accounting.=C2=A0 The<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multi=
ple
                times in the label stack<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of a packet.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CIt is possible to partially deploy this=
 feature
                when not all the<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 nodes in the network support the extensio=
ns
                defined in this document.<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In such scenarios, the special labels MUS=
T NOT
                get exposed on the top<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the label stack at a node that does no=
t
                support the extensions<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 defined in this document.=C2=A0 This may =
require
                multiple blocks of SR-<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the p=
acket
                header.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The controller needs to ke=
ep track of
                transit node capability and<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0push=
 the additional per-path labels,
                accordingly. I.e., the controller<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0also=
 needs to maintain such
                information for the transit nodes.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In most cases, the controller/ingres=
s only
                needs to care about the capabilities<br>
                &gt; of the egress nodes. That is, if the special
                purpose label reaches the top of the<br>
                &gt; stack it has to be able to handle it.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The only time when the transit node =
issue
                arises is when there is a small RLD.<br>
                &gt; That information may need to be known by the
                controller to enable correct ECMP<br>
                &gt; behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If there is a desire to enable accou=
nting
                at transit nodes with a small RLD then<br>
                &gt; the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and
                *that* means that the<br>
                &gt; controller has to be sensitive as to where in the
                network the special purpose<br>
                &gt; label will rise to the top of the stack.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 It seems to me that:<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Controllers are not particularly r=
esource
                constrained: adding a flag per node<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(or even per link!) wou=
ld not break any
                scaling behavior.<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Adding another flag to the IGP alo=
ngside
                the RLD is not significant scaling<br>
                &gt; issue.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; The comment here was not so much related to scaling
                but was for adding<br>
                &gt; complexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you
                noted above and in the draft,<br>
                &gt; controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the
                following cases every time a<br>
                &gt; path needs to be computed (quoting some of the
                cases from the draft).<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CWhen the head-end node<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the l=
abel
                stack, the place in the<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 stack is decided based on whether the nod=
e where
                the special label<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 gets exposed is capable of popping those
                labels.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CWhile inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the
                head-end router MUST<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ensure that the labels are not exposed to=
 the
                nodes that do not<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 support them. =E2=80=9C<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CBecause it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stat=
s
                labels are removed<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 when they are found at the top of the lab=
el
                stack, the node imposing<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the label stack (the ingress) must know w=
hich
                nodes are capable of<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 stripping the labels.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; In RLDC limitation cases, =E2=80=9CTo support traffic<=
br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 accounting in such cases it is necessary =
to
                insert the SR-Path-Stats<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Labels within the Readable Label Stack De=
pth
                Capability (RLDC) of the<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 nodes in the SR path.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label=
 stack
                such that the nodes<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Ide=
ntifier
                for accounting.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CThe special labels MUST NOT get exposed on th=
e top<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the label stack at a node that does no=
t
                support the extensions<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 defined in this document.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CIf the egress has not indicated that it is ca=
pable
                of removing the<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT =
be
                placed at the bottom of<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the label stack.=C2=A0 In this case the S=
R-Path-Stats
                Labels SHOULD be<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 placed at a point in the label stack such=
 that
                they will be found at<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the top of stack by the latest node in th=
e SR
                path that is capable of<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 removing them. =E2=80=9C<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CSR paths may require large label stacks.=C2=
=A0 Some
                hardware platforms do<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 not support creating such large label sta=
cks
                (i.e., imposing a large<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 number of labels at once).=C2=A0 To overc=
ome this
                limitation sub-paths are<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 created within the network, and Binding-S=
IDs are
                allocated to these<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sub-paths.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 which means=
 controller/ ingress
                software need to also create/<br>
                &gt; install sub-paths.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                <br>
                <br>
                ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
              </div>
            </div>
            <div class=3D"m_-1706617167193872311HOEnZb">
              <div class=3D"m_-1706617167193872311h5">spring mailing list<b=
r>
                <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a><br>
                <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" re=
l=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istin=
fo/spring</a><br>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class=3D"m_-1706617167193872311mimeAttachmentHeader"></fiel=
dset>
      <br>
      <pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: "Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>, "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 04:11:52 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 04:24:17 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 14:54:10 -0800
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To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
Cc: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, spring <spring@ietf.org>,  "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi Carlos.
you've stated: "Because it piggy-backs on data without altering the data
plane realization. IPFIX for the rest."
Do you believe that this combination, iOAM and IPFIX, addresses all SR
requirements towards OAM? That there's no need for any other tool in the SR
OAM toolbox?

Regards,
Greg

On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 8:11 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:

> [Sorry for jumping late to this thread! A couple of quick observations.]
>
>
> On Nov 21, 2017, at 1:34 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> . I clearly see folks thinking of SR-MPLS like a RSVP-TE analogy with ERO=
s
>
>
> [and]
>
> On Nov 16, 2017, at 5:48 AM, stephane.litkowski@orange.com wrote:
>
>
> Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS dataplane) ha=
s
> limited TE features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE without
> adding too much complexity).
>
>
> I think this is the key, let=E2=80=99s not ATM-ify the OAM uses for SR (M=
PLS or
> IPv6).
>
> On Nov 21, 2017, at 1:34 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> Especially iOAM is very useful.
>
>
> Yes!
>
> Because it piggy-backs on data without altering the data plane
> realization. IPFIX for the rest.
>
> On Nov 16, 2017, at 3:33 AM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Zafar, et.al,
> as I'm the one who have started the thread I'd like to clarify and
> reiterate my point Performance measurements are required not only e2e but
> on a span, i.e. SPME, using MPLS-TO lingo. If we agree on that, then we a=
re
> ready to discuss how to support these measurements in SR-MPLS.
>
>
> I believe trying to RSVP-TE-ify the path characteristics, or inventing
> SR-MPLS-TP is not a good idea.
>
> Thanks,
>
> =E2=80=94
> Carlos Pignataro, carlos@cisco.com
>
> On Nov 21, 2017, at 1:34 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Adrian,
>
> I am not going to defend beauty of any architecture. I think there is muc=
h
> bigger fundamental misunderstanding how in practice someone will use
> SR-MPLS and I think this is the root cause for this little thread and
> different perspectives of its participants.
>
> So SR-MPLS is not RSVP-TE and there is no EROs. The set of SIDs are no
> more then hints on how to steer the packets within connection less paradi=
gm
> (same as IP tunnel so to say with less encap overhead) via one or more of
> IGP segments.
>
> *The less SIDs you add to the packet the better !*
>
> Yes that requires to be smart (or to have smart central controller) to ad=
d
> only a very few labels/SIDs to accomplish the network traffic distributio=
n
> objectives. I clearly see folks thinking of SR-MPLS like a RSVP-TE analog=
y
> with EROs, but this is IMO fundamentally wrong. Only that you can do it (=
to
> build SR-MPLS paths all the way via your domain) does not make it a good
> idea. No where in SR architecture I see any pre-asssumption that last IGP
> segment will be connected to domain egress node (with the exception of EP=
E
> but this is different app).
>
> In fact as some may recall we are 17 years after RSVP-TE shipping code an=
d
> only very few networks ever deployed it for all unicast traffic end to en=
d
> for many reasons. Most folks used it for FRR or for hot spot bypass.
>
> Now as far as OAM sure it is great to have it both for IP networks and
> MPLS-LDP networks and SR-MPLS networks. Especially iOAM is very useful. B=
ut
> this is not really related to SR-MPLS architecture.
>
> With that I think the draft makes set of assumptions which are far from
> how SR-MPLS should be deployed and this does make it rather problematic. =
It
> is just like draft describing use of BGP for data centers ... now everyon=
e
> is using BGP for all data centers or even other types of networks
> regardless if this is even applicable or best choice for a given cluster
> scale they are building :).
>
> Counters are great, more counters are even better, but I fail to see the
> value for yet again counting traffic arriving via specific IGP segments
> when we are already counting packets arriving via given IGP topology. My
> recommendation would be to solve it for MPLS-LDP in MPLS WG first (which
> after all is one example where flooding domain wide labels in IGP replace=
s)
> and then SR-MPLS will inherit the same solution.
>
> Cheers,
> Robert.
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I understand that you doubt that this thread will yield anything
>> productive, but there are a couple of things you're raising that need to=
 be
>> nailed down.
>>
>> Probably the most important of these is the concern that you express tha=
t
>> maintaining counters in the network goes against the beauty of the SR
>> architecture because it means holding state at transit nodes. This seems=
 to
>> be a debate about the perfection of an architecture versus the
>> manageability of the network. Don't get me wrong, I love a beautiful
>> architecture, but only if the network can be operated successfully.
>>
>> So, we should start at the top of the document and work our way down. I
>> assume that you don't have any issues with Section 1: it seems to say wh=
at
>> you are saying about the statelessness of SR. Section 2 is probably wher=
e
>> you start to be unhappy: it sets an objective (to be able to count packe=
ts
>> per flow) and sets some requirements on any solution.
>>
>> That is, I think you believe that it is not necessary (or not desirable?=
)
>> to count packets in an SR network and assign those counts to the SR path=
s
>> that generated those packet flows. So the challenge for you is to say
>> whether the problem described in Figure 1 is:
>> - not a concern in network management
>> - can be solved by other means without counting traffic at
>>    transit nodes (Note Well that other ways of counting
>>    traffic at transit nodes are still counting traffic at transit
>>    nodes).
>>
>> But one other point I want to pick up on is your claim that "the draft
>> also talks about needs to break an SR Path into sub-paths". Sub-paths th=
at
>> are achieved through an expansion of a Binding SID are just part of the
>> landscape and (of course) thy have to be coped with. The draft doesn't
>> introduce sub-paths, it just observes that they exist.
>>
>> Lastly, the conversation on the number of labels as a multiplier seems t=
o
>> have gotten out of hand. Why not just agree that you original statement =
of
>> "increased by up to 3x" was an exaggeration?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Adrian
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Zafar Ali (zali) [mailto:zali@cisco.com]
>> > Sent: 20 November 2017 23:36
>> > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk
>> > Cc: 'spring'; 'mpls'
>> > Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
>> > accounting-for-sr-paths
>> >
>> > Hi Adrian,
>> >
>> > Some comments are provided in-line.
>> >
>> > Please note that, we all want to let this lingering tread die and
>> follow-up on the
>> > next steps noted during this email exchange. I will be happy to have a
>> webEx call
>> > and discuss it further, offline.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> > Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>> >
>> > On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> >     >>> procedure (in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-pat=
hs)
>> that
>> > breaks SR
>> >     >>> Architecture, highly unscalable and complicated to implement.
>> >     >>
>> >     >> [JD]  Do you have any evidence to justify any of your
>> assertions, above?
>> >     >
>> >     > Please note that in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc
>> ounting-for-sr-paths:
>> >     >
>> >     > =E2=80=A2    The transit node needs to be able to recognize the =
special
>> label, read
>> >     >        the SR Path Identification label and update the counter
>> against such
>> >     >        =E2=80=9Cstates=E2=80=9D.
>> >
>> > >    Possibly worth noting that existing devices are capable of
>> maintaining many
>> > counters and updating them at line speed.
>> >
>> > >    Several people have noted that ipfix is a process used for
>> accounting in
>> > networks. That approach may have to find the bottom of stack and then
>> match
>> > the packet that follows.
>> >
>> > >    Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve finding the bottom of
>> stack and
>> > hashing on the header of the payload.
>> >
>> > >    Some hardware cannot perform either mechanism. This usually
>> results from a
>> > trade between low cost, high performance, and features. Generally you
>> can't
>> > have all three.
>> >
>> > The question is not about if the hardware is able to perform such
>> operations but
>> > regarding breaking the very beauty of SR =E2=80=93 no states at the tr=
ansit/
>> egress nodes.
>> > In the context of label stack size explosion, the draft also talks
>> about needs to
>> > break an SR Path into sub-paths =E2=80=93 thereby creating yet additio=
nal
>> states in the
>> > network for accounting reasons (see more detail on this in the
>> following).
>> > Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed for SDN =E2=80=93 the architecture ca=
lls for
>> > simplification of the network not adding complexity in the network
>> fabric. Please
>> > also note that a network may have a large number of SR Path, thereby
>> creating
>> > another dimension for scaling limitations.
>> >
>> > The proposed procedure also does not work for node protection in the
>> network.
>> > The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to implement procedure
>> proposed in the
>> > document; I am quoting from the draft.
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CWhen using extensions
>> >    described in this document for traffic accounting and with node-
>> >    protection enabled in the network, it is RECOMMENDED to make sure a=
ll
>> >    the nodes in the network support the extension.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> >     > =E2=80=A2    The draft proposes to push (up to) 3 Labels for eac=
h segment
>> in the SR
>> >     >        Path. That means that label stack is increased up to 3x
>> times! This is a
>> >     >        serious a scaling issue.
>> >
>> > >    John asked for evidence and you provided a misunderstanding or
>> misreading
>> > of our draft.
>> > >    The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels per SR Path (noting as
>> John did,
>> > that this is our own term).
>> > >    That is not what you say, so perhaps you could retract or provide
>> a pointer to
>> > the text.
>> >
>> > >    Thus, "increased up to 3x times" applies only with the single cas=
e
>> where the
>> > imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the three label option
>> is applied.
>> > So, while  what you say is true, it is clearly (and wilfully?)
>> exaggerating the
>> > severity of impact, and it is doubtful that  4-label stack is actually
>> a problem.
>> >
>> > There are many scenarios that will require SR-Path-Stats Labels (up to
>> 3 labels) to
>> > be present multiple times in the label stack. These scenarios are not
>> uncommon.
>> > The following scenarios as noted in the draft.
>> x`x>
>> >   =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>> >    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes
>> >    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.  T=
he
>> >    SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multiple times in the label sta=
ck
>> >    of a packet.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> >  =E2=80=9CIt is possible to partially deploy this feature when not all=
 the
>> >    nodes in the network support the extensions defined in this documen=
t.
>> >    In such scenarios, the special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the t=
op
>> >    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>> >    defined in this document.  This may require multiple blocks of SR-
>> >    Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the packet header.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> > > =E2=80=A2    The controller needs to keep track of transit node capa=
bility and
>> >     >       push the additional per-path labels, accordingly. I.e., th=
e
>> controller
>> >     >       also needs to maintain such information for the transit
>> nodes.
>> >
>> > >    In most cases, the controller/ingress only needs to care about th=
e
>> capabilities
>> > of the egress nodes. That is, if the special purpose label reaches the
>> top of the
>> > stack it has to be able to handle it.
>> >
>> > >    The only time when the transit node issue arises is when there is
>> a small RLD.
>> > That information may need to be known by the controller to enable
>> correct ECMP
>> > behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.
>> > >    If there is a desire to enable accounting at transit nodes with a
>> small RLD then
>> > the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and *that* means that
>> the
>> > controller has to be sensitive as to where in the network the special
>> purpose
>> > label will rise to the top of the stack.
>> >
>> > >    It seems to me that:
>> > >    - Controllers are not particularly resource constrained: adding a
>> flag per node
>> > >       (or even per link!) would not break any scaling behavior.
>> > >    - Adding another flag to the IGP alongside the RLD is not
>> significant scaling
>> > issue.
>> >
>> > The comment here was not so much related to scaling but was for adding
>> > complexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you noted above and in
>> the draft,
>> > controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the following cases ever=
y
>> time a
>> > path needs to be computed (quoting some of the cases from the draft).
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CWhen the head-end node
>> >    inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the label stack, the place in t=
he
>> >    stack is decided based on whether the node where the special label
>> >    gets exposed is capable of popping those labels.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CWhile inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the head-end router=
 MUST
>> >    ensure that the labels are not exposed to the nodes that do not
>> >    support them. =E2=80=9C
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CBecause it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats labels are rem=
oved
>> >    when they are found at the top of the label stack, the node imposin=
g
>> >    the label stack (the ingress) must know which nodes are capable of
>> >    stripping the labels.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> > In RLDC limitation cases, =E2=80=9CTo support traffic
>> >    accounting in such cases it is necessary to insert the SR-Path-Stat=
s
>> >    Labels within the Readable Label Stack Depth Capability (RLDC) of t=
he
>> >    nodes in the SR path.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>> >    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes
>> >    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.=E2=
=80=9D
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CThe special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top
>> >    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>> >    defined in this document.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CIf the egress has not indicated that it is capable of removin=
g the
>> >    SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT be placed at the bottom of
>> >    the label stack.  In this case the SR-Path-Stats Labels SHOULD be
>> >    placed at a point in the label stack such that they will be found a=
t
>> >    the top of stack by the latest node in the SR path that is capable =
of
>> >    removing them. =E2=80=9C
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CSR paths may require large label stacks.  Some hardware platf=
orms do
>> >    not support creating such large label stacks (i.e., imposing a larg=
e
>> >    number of labels at once).  To overcome this limitation sub-paths a=
re
>> >    created within the network, and Binding-SIDs are allocated to these
>> >    sub-paths.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 which means controller/ ingress softw=
are need to also
>> create/
>> > install sub-paths.
>> >
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
>> spring@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
>

--94eb2c0ec71ed96359055efec7c0
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Carlos.<div>you&#39;ve stated: &quot;<span style=3D"fon=
t-size:12.8px">Because it piggy-backs on data without altering the data pla=
ne realization. IPFIX for the rest.&quot;</span></div><div><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:12.8px">Do you believe that this combination, iOAM and IPFIX, addr=
esses all SR requirements towards OAM? That there&#39;s no need for any oth=
er tool in the SR OAM toolbox?</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12=
.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Regards,</span=
></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Greg</span></div></div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at =
8:11 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">cpignata@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
[Sorry for jumping late to this thread! A couple of quick observations.]
<span class=3D""><div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">On Nov 21, 2017, at 1:34 PM, Robert Raszuk &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&=
gt; wrote:</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">=C2=A0</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
. I clearly see folks thinking of SR-MPLS like a RSVP-TE analogy with EROs<=
/div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</span><div>[and]</div><span class=3D"">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div class=3D"m_-1795313693025414482WordSection1">
<div>On Nov 16, 2017, at 5:48 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@oran=
ge.com" target=3D"_blank">
stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a> wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"m_-1795313693025414482Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-1795313693025414482WordSection1">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:11pt">=C2=A0</span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:11pt">Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS datapla=
ne) has limited TE features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE wit=
hout adding too
 much complexity).</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-1795313693025414482WordSection1">
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-1795313693025414482WordSection1">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif">
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span><div>I think this is the key, let=E2=80=99s not ATM-ify the OAM uses=
 for SR (MPLS or IPv6).</div><span class=3D"">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">On Nov 21, 2017, at 1:34 PM, Robert Raszuk &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&=
gt; wrote:</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">=C2=A0</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr"></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</span><div><span class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Especially iOAM is very useful.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div></span>
Yes!=C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Because it piggy-backs on data without altering the data plane realiza=
tion. IPFIX for the rest.<span class=3D""><br>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"auto">
<div>On Nov 16, 2017, at 3:33 AM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimi=
rsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div=
>
<br class=3D"m_-1795313693025414482Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Hi Zafar,=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://et.al/" target=3D"_blank=
">et.al</a>,=C2=A0
<div dir=3D"auto">as I&#39;m the one who have started the thread I&#39;d li=
ke to clarify and reiterate my point Performance measurements are required =
not only e2e but on a span, i.e. SPME, using MPLS-TO lingo. If we agree on =
that, then we are ready to discuss
 how to support these measurements in SR-MPLS.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span><div>
<div dir=3D"auto">
<div>
<div dir=3D"auto">
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">I believe trying to RSVP-TE-ify the path characteristics,=
 or inventing SR-MPLS-TP is not a good idea.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Thanks,</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
=E2=80=94<br>
Carlos Pignataro,=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:carlos@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank=
">carlos@cisco.com</a><br>
<br>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Nov 21, 2017, at 1:34 PM, Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rober=
t@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"m_-1795313693025414482Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Hi Adrian,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
I am not going to defend beauty of any architecture. I think there is much =
bigger fundamental misunderstanding how in practice someone will use SR-MPL=
S and I think this is the root cause for this little thread and different p=
erspectives of its participants.=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
So SR-MPLS is not RSVP-TE and there is no EROs. The set of SIDs are no more=
 then hints on how to steer the packets within connection less paradigm (sa=
me as IP tunnel so to say with less encap overhead) via one or more of IGP =
segments.=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<b><br>
</b></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<b>The less SIDs you add to the packet the better !</b>=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Yes that requires to be smart (or to have smart central controller) to add =
only a very few labels/SIDs to accomplish the network traffic distribution =
objectives. I clearly see folks thinking of SR-MPLS like a RSVP-TE analogy =
with EROs, but this is IMO fundamentally
 wrong. Only that you can do it (to build SR-MPLS paths all the way via you=
r domain) does not make it a good idea. No where in SR architecture I see a=
ny pre-asssumption that last IGP segment will be connected to domain egress=
 node (with the exception of EPE
 but this is different app).</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
In fact as some may recall we are 17 years after RSVP-TE shipping code and =
only very few networks ever deployed it for all unicast traffic end to end =
for many reasons. Most folks used it for FRR or for hot spot bypass.=C2=A0<=
/div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Now as far as OAM sure it is great to have it both for IP networks and MPLS=
-LDP networks and SR-MPLS networks. Especially iOAM is very useful. But thi=
s is not really related to SR-MPLS architecture.=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
With that I think the draft makes set of assumptions which are far from how=
 SR-MPLS should be deployed and this does make it rather problematic. It is=
 just like draft describing use of BGP for data centers ... now everyone is=
 using BGP for all data centers
 or even other types of networks regardless if this is even applicable or b=
est choice for a given cluster scale they are building :).=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Counters are great, more counters are even better, but I fail to see the va=
lue for yet again counting traffic arriving via specific IGP segments when =
we are already counting packets arriving via given IGP topology. My recomme=
ndation would be to solve it for
 MPLS-LDP in MPLS WG first (which after all is one example where flooding d=
omain wide labels in IGP replaces) and then SR-MPLS will inherit the same s=
olution.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Cheers,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Robert.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Adrian Farrel <=
span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddog.=
co.uk</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi,<br>
<br>
I understand that you doubt that this thread will yield anything productive=
, but there are a couple of things you&#39;re raising that need to be naile=
d down.<br>
<br>
Probably the most important of these is the concern that you express that m=
aintaining counters in the network goes against the beauty of the SR archit=
ecture because it means holding state at transit nodes. This seems to be a =
debate about the perfection of an
 architecture versus the manageability of the network. Don&#39;t get me wro=
ng, I love a beautiful architecture, but only if the network can be operate=
d successfully.<br>
<br>
So, we should start at the top of the document and work our way down. I ass=
ume that you don&#39;t have any issues with Section 1: it seems to say what=
 you are saying about the statelessness of SR. Section 2 is probably where =
you start to be unhappy: it sets an
 objective (to be able to count packets per flow) and sets some requirement=
s on any solution.<br>
<br>
That is, I think you believe that it is not necessary (or not desirable?) t=
o count packets in an SR network and assign those counts to the SR paths th=
at generated those packet flows. So the challenge for you is to say whether=
 the problem described in Figure
 1 is:<br>
- not a concern in network management<br>
- can be solved by other means without counting traffic at<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0transit nodes (Note Well that other ways of counting<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0traffic at transit nodes are still counting traffic at transit=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0nodes).<br>
<br>
But one other point I want to pick up on is your claim that &quot;the draft=
 also talks about needs to break an SR Path into sub-paths&quot;. Sub-paths=
 that are achieved through an expansion of a Binding SID are just part of t=
he landscape and (of course) thy have to be
 coped with. The draft doesn&#39;t introduce sub-paths, it just observes th=
at they exist.<br>
<br>
Lastly, the conversation on the number of labels as a multiplier seems to h=
ave gotten out of hand. Why not just agree that you original statement of &=
quot;increased by up to 3x&quot; was an exaggeration?<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Adrian<br>
<span><br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Zafar Ali (zali) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>]<br>
&gt; Sent: 20 November 2017 23:36<br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@ol=
ddog.co.uk</a><br>
&gt; Cc: &#39;spring&#39;; &#39;mpls&#39;<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spr=
ing-traffic-<br>
&gt; accounting-for-sr-paths<br>
&gt;<br>
</span>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-1795313693025414482h5">&gt; Hi Adrian,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Some comments are provided in-line.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please note that, we all want to let this lingering tread die and foll=
ow-up on the<br>
&gt; next steps noted during this email exchange. I will be happy to have a=
 webEx call<br>
&gt; and discuss it further, offline.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, &quot;Adrian Farrel&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<b=
r>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; procedure (in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths) that<br>
&gt; breaks SR<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Architecture, highly unscalable and co=
mplicated to implement.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; [JD]=C2=A0 Do you have any evidence to jus=
tify any of your assertions, above?<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Please note that in draft-hegde-spring-traffic=
-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The transit node needs =
to be able to recognize the special label, read<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the SR Path Identif=
ication label and update the counter against such<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cstates=E2=
=80=9D.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Possibly worth noting that existing devices are capa=
ble of maintaining many<br>
&gt; counters and updating them at line speed.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Several people have noted that ipfix is a process us=
ed for accounting in<br>
&gt; networks. That approach may have to find the bottom of stack and then =
match<br>
&gt; the packet that follows.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve finding the=
 bottom of stack and<br>
&gt; hashing on the header of the payload.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Some hardware cannot perform either mechanism. This =
usually results from a<br>
&gt; trade between low cost, high performance, and features. Generally you =
can&#39;t<br>
&gt; have all three.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The question is not about if the hardware is able to perform such oper=
ations but<br>
&gt; regarding breaking the very beauty of SR =E2=80=93 no states at the tr=
ansit/ egress nodes.<br>
&gt; In the context of label stack size explosion, the draft also talks abo=
ut needs to<br>
&gt; break an SR Path into sub-paths =E2=80=93 thereby creating yet additio=
nal states in the<br>
&gt; network for accounting reasons (see more detail on this in the followi=
ng).<br>
&gt; Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed for SDN =E2=80=93 the architecture ca=
lls for<br>
&gt; simplification of the network not adding complexity in the network fab=
ric. Please<br>
&gt; also note that a network may have a large number of SR Path, thereby c=
reating<br>
&gt; another dimension for scaling limitations.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The proposed procedure also does not work for node protection in the n=
etwork.<br>
&gt; The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to implement procedure propo=
sed in the<br>
&gt; document; I am quoting from the draft.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CWhen using extensions<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 described in this document for traffic accounting and wit=
h node-<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 protection enabled in the network, it is RECOMMENDED to m=
ake sure all<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the nodes in the network support the extension.=E2=80=9D<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The draft proposes to p=
ush (up to) 3 Labels for each segment in the SR<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Path. That means th=
at label stack is increased up to 3x times! This is a<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 serious a scaling i=
ssue.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 John asked for evidence and you provided a misunders=
tanding or misreading<br>
&gt; of our draft.<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels per SR Pa=
th (noting as John did,<br>
&gt; that this is our own term).<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 That is not what you say, so perhaps you could retra=
ct or provide a pointer to<br>
&gt; the text.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thus, &quot;increased up to 3x times&quot; applies o=
nly with the single case where the<br>
&gt; imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the three label option=
 is applied.<br>
&gt; So, while=C2=A0 what you say is true, it is clearly (and wilfully?) ex=
aggerating the<br>
&gt; severity of impact, and it is doubtful that=C2=A0 4-label stack is act=
ually a problem.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; There are many scenarios that will require SR-Path-Stats Labels (up to=
 3 labels) to<br>
&gt; be present multiple times in the label stack. These scenarios are not =
uncommon.<br>
&gt; The following scenarios as noted in the draft.<br>
</div>
</div>
x`x&gt;<br>
<div class=3D"m_-1795313693025414482HOEnZb">
<div class=3D"m_-1795313693025414482h5">&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9CThe head-=
end node SHOULD insert the SR-<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that=
 the nodes<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for acco=
unting.=C2=A0 The<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multiple times in the=
 label stack<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of a packet.=E2=80=9D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CIt is possible to partially deploy this feature when no=
t all the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 nodes in the network support the extensions defined in th=
is document.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In such scenarios, the special labels MUST NOT get expose=
d on the top<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the label stack at a node that does not support the ex=
tensions<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 defined in this document.=C2=A0 This may require multiple=
 blocks of SR-<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the packet header.=E2=
=80=9D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The controller needs to keep track of tran=
sit node capability and<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0push the additional =
per-path labels, accordingly. I.e., the controller<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0also needs to mainta=
in such information for the transit nodes.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In most cases, the controller/ingress only needs to =
care about the capabilities<br>
&gt; of the egress nodes. That is, if the special purpose label reaches the=
 top of the<br>
&gt; stack it has to be able to handle it.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The only time when the transit node issue arises is =
when there is a small RLD.<br>
&gt; That information may need to be known by the controller to enable corr=
ect ECMP<br>
&gt; behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If there is a desire to enable accounting at transit=
 nodes with a small RLD then<br>
&gt; the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and *that* means that =
the<br>
&gt; controller has to be sensitive as to where in the network the special =
purpose<br>
&gt; label will rise to the top of the stack.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 It seems to me that:<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Controllers are not particularly resource constrai=
ned: adding a flag per node<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(or even per link!) would not break any=
 scaling behavior.<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Adding another flag to the IGP alongside the RLD i=
s not significant scaling<br>
&gt; issue.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The comment here was not so much related to scaling but was for adding=
<br>
&gt; complexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you noted above and in =
the draft,<br>
&gt; controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the following cases ever=
y time a<br>
&gt; path needs to be computed (quoting some of the cases from the draft).<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CWhen the head-end node<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the label stack, the =
place in the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 stack is decided based on whether the node where the spec=
ial label<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 gets exposed is capable of popping those labels.=E2=80=9D=
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CWhile inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the head-end router=
 MUST<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ensure that the labels are not exposed to the nodes that =
do not<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 support them. =E2=80=9C<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CBecause it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats labels are rem=
oved<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 when they are found at the top of the label stack, the no=
de imposing<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the label stack (the ingress) must know which nodes are c=
apable of<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 stripping the labels.=E2=80=9D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; In RLDC limitation cases, =E2=80=9CTo support traffic<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 accounting in such cases it is necessary to insert the SR=
-Path-Stats<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Labels within the Readable Label Stack Depth Capability (=
RLDC) of the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 nodes in the SR path.=E2=80=9D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that=
 the nodes<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for acco=
unting.=E2=80=9D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CThe special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the label stack at a node that does not support the ex=
tensions<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 defined in this document.=E2=80=9D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CIf the egress has not indicated that it is capable of removin=
g the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT be placed at the=
 bottom of<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the label stack.=C2=A0 In this case the SR-Path-Stats Lab=
els SHOULD be<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 placed at a point in the label stack such that they will =
be found at<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the top of stack by the latest node in the SR path that i=
s capable of<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 removing them. =E2=80=9C<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CSR paths may require large label stacks.=C2=A0 Some hardware =
platforms do<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 not support creating such large label stacks (i.e., impos=
ing a large<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 number of labels at once).=C2=A0 To overcome this limitat=
ion sub-paths are<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 created within the network, and Binding-SIDs are allocate=
d to these<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sub-paths.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 which means controller/ ing=
ress software need to also create/<br>
&gt; install sub-paths.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"m_-1795313693025414482HOEnZb">
<div class=3D"m_-1795313693025414482h5">spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/spring</a><br=
>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/spring</a><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</div>

<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 23:07:05 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>
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To: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
Cc: draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing@ietf.org,  "spring-chairs@ietf.org" <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, spring@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [spring] AD Review of draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-12
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Les:

Hi!

I don=E2=80=99t think I got a reply on the IPR question below.

Thanks!

Alvaro.

On November 1, 2017 at 3:55:00 PM, Alvaro Retana (aretana.ietf@gmail.com)
wrote:

Les:

Hi!

Apologies for the long delay in responding. The transference of the pen
from Stefano resulted in a longer delay than it should have.

Thanks for taking this on!

As a new author: are you aware of any undeclared IPR for this document?

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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" st=
yle=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);mar=
gin:0px;line-height:auto">Les:</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"f=
ont-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;=
line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-hei=
ght:auto">Hi!</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvet=
ica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"=
><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Aria=
l;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">I don=
=E2=80=99t think I got a reply on the IPR question below.</div><div id=3D"b=
loop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:=
rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_cus=
tomfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0=
,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Thanks!</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfo=
nt" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.=
0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" styl=
e=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margi=
n:0px;line-height:auto">Alvaro.</div> <br><p class=3D"airmail_on">On Novemb=
er 1, 2017 at 3:55:00 PM, Alvaro Retana (<a href=3D"mailto:aretana.ietf@gma=
il.com">aretana.ietf@gmail.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" cl=
ass=3D"clean_bq"><span><div><p class=3D"airmail_on"><font face=3D"Helvetica=
">Les:</font></p><p class=3D"airmail_on"><font face=3D"Helvetica">Hi!</font=
></p><div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:&#39;helvetica Neue&#3=
9;,helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font=
-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-=
transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><blockquote class=3D"cl=
ean_bq"><div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#95=
4F72"><div><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)"><font face=3D"Helvetica">Apologies for the long d=
elay in responding. The transference of the pen from Stefano resulted in a =
longer delay than it should have.</font></span></p></div></div></div></bloc=
kquote></div><p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:&#39;helvetica Neue&#=
39;,helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;fon=
t-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text=
-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetic=
a">Thanks for taking this on! =C2=A0</font></p><p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)=
;font-family:&#39;helvetica Neue&#39;,helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:n=
ormal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica">As a new author: are you aware of any =
undeclared IPR for this document?</font></p><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);=
font-family:&#39;helvetica Neue&#39;,helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:no=
rmal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text=
-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-sp=
acing:0px"><div><blockquote class=3D"clean_bq"><div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=
=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><=
br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div></blockquote> <div id=3D=
"bloop_sign_1512079435893261824" class=3D"bloop_sign"></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

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From: "Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
To: Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: "draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing@ietf.org>, "spring-chairs@ietf.org" <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
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To: "Ahmed Bashandy (bashandy)" <bashandy@cisco.com>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>, "spring-chairs@ietf.org" <spring-chairs@ietf.org>,  "draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls@ietf.org>,  Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
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Ahmed:

Hi!

It=E2=80=99s been almost a month, and I haven=E2=80=99t seen a reply from y=
ou.

I will send the document back to the WG by the end of this week.

Thanks!

Alvaro.

On November 2, 2017 at 6:49:10 PM, Alvaro Retana (aretana.ietf@gmail.com)
wrote:

On October 30, 2017 at 2:12:18 PM, Ahmed Bashandy (bashandy) (
bashandy@cisco.com ) wrote:

Ahmed:

Hi!  How are you?

...

The main questions/concerns that I have related to this document is not
just for the authors, but for the Shepherd and the Chairs too.

Q1. Why is this document on the Standards Track? From the Introduction:
=E2=80=9CThis drafts describes how Segment Routing operates on top of the M=
PLS data
plane.=E2=80=9D  Describes, yes.  On the other hand, the Shepherd=E2=80=99s=
 write-up says
that it =E2=80=9Cspecifies the generic functions of the architecture=E2=80=
=9D =E2=80=93 I don=E2=80=99t see
a specification, just a description.  As such, I think this document should
be Informational.

#Ahmed: The new version of the draft specifies many things that are
applicable to instantiation of SR over MPLS

I=E2=80=99ll take your answer as confirming that the old version (-10) wasn=
=E2=80=99t
really specifying anything.

For this new version (-11), can you please be specific on what these =E2=80=
=9Cmany
things=E2=80=9D are?

I see some new Normative Language in the new 2.x sub-sections.  I have some
specific comments on that:

Q1.A. Section 2.2. (SID Representation in the MPLS Forwarding Plane):

The MCC MUST ensure that any label value corresponding to any SID it
   installs in the forwarding plane follows the following rules:

   o  The label value MUST be unique within the router on which the MCC
      is running. i.e. the label MUST only be used to represent the SID.

   o  The label value MUST NOT be identical to or within the range of
      any reserved label value or range [reserved-MPLS
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls-11#ref-=
reserved-MPLS>],
respectively.

These seem to be new requirements for the MCCs. Given that the
protocol extensions (and LDP) are defined (in Section 2) as MCCs, how
are they supposed to follow these rules, specially the first one? As
far as I can tell, the IGP extensions (for example) can carry
Label/SID information from an advertising node, so I don=E2=80=99t know how=
 a
local MCC (remote to that advertising node, which is locally
"installing forwarding entries in the MPLS data plane=E2=80=9D) can guarant=
ee
what the label is used for (=E2=80=9Conly used to represent the SID=E2=80=
=9D). Maybe
I=E2=80=99m missing something and this is already specified somewhere else=
=E2=80=A6??

The second rule is just what the MPLS Architecture already specifies, no
nothing new, right? BTW, the link in the reserved-MPLS reference doesn=E2=
=80=99t
work =E2=80=94 a better reference might be rfc3032 or rfc7274.


Q1.B. Section 2.3. (Segment Routing Global Block and Local Block):

The following rules apply to the list of MPLS ranges representing the
   SRGB

   o  The list of label ranges MUST only be used to instantiate global
      SIDs into the MPLS forwarding plane

   o  Every range in the list of ranges specifying the SRGB MUST NOT
      cover or overlap with a reserved label value or range [reserved-
      MPLS], respectively.
     . . .
   Just like SRGB, the SRLB need not be a single
   contiguous range of label, except the SRGB MUST only be used to
   instantiate global SIDs into the MPLS forwarding plane.


The first rule (and the text below them) points to the global nature of the
SR *global* Block. The architecture document already says that "In SR-MPLS,
SRGB is a local property of a node and identifies the set of local labels
reserved for global segments.=E2=80=9D Nothing new specified here.


                                  Q1.C. Section 2.4. (Mapping a SID
Index to an MPLS label) introduces an algorithm to calculate the label
value.  Note that the architecture document now includes an algorithm
(in Section 3.1.2) as well =E2=80=94 the algorithm in this document doesn=
=E2=80=99t
look to be the same, but even if it is, it would be confusing to
specify the same thing in two places.


                  Q1.D. The rest of the sub-sections seem to rehash
forwarding behaviors, which, because of the fact that the MPLS
architecture is not changing, seem to add nothing interesting or
important to this document.

 Having said all that, I still don=E2=80=99t see a clear justification for
this document to be in the Standards Track.

Q2. Section 2. (MPLS Instantiation of Segment Routing) is the only one with
any real content=E2=80=A6but there are only a couple of things in it that a=
re not
in the Architecture document: the introduction of the SRLB, and some words
about the index =E2=80=93 both of which should be really explained in the
Architecture document, and not here.  I wonder what the value of publishing
this document really is.  What long-term archival value does it provide?

#Ahmed: The long term plan is to move details of MPLS-specific
specifications to this document and keep the architecture document more
general

The =E2=80=9Clong term plan=E2=80=9D ??  What do you mean?  The architectur=
e document is
already in IETF Last Call =E2=80=94 are you saying that both documents stil=
l
require more changes and are not ready for publication?  I really hope that
is not what you mean.

In any case, you did not answer my question about the value of the document
as is.  No worries, the intent is not to stop publication, but to
understand whether there is something I=E2=80=99m missing and the relations=
hip to
the proposed Status.


Q3. I also have to wonder about the IPR declared for this document.  If
most of the information here is already defined, described or specified in
draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing, should the IPR declaration apply to that
document as well (or maybe instead of this one)?  It is not the IETF=E2=80=
=99s role
(including the WG) to discuss whether a piece of IPR is valid or not =E2=80=
=93 I
just want to make sure the disclosures apply to the right document.

#Ahmed: We will make sure that all IPR is declared

That was not my question!   And declaring IPR at this point in time is
very, very late (rfc6701).


I didn=E2=80=99t find a discussion on the list about any of these points.

I am concerned about all the text that has been added (which in my opinion
doesn=E2=80=99t contribute much to the document), resulting in about a 70% =
increase
the document length!  I will wait for your answer to my points above before
returning the document to the WG for a thorough review.


I have some other specific comments below.

Thanks!

Alvaro.

...

P3. Section 2. (MPLS Instantiation of Segment Routing) says that =E2=80=9Ca
controller-driven network=E2=80=A6MAY use the control plane to discover the
available set of local SIDs=E2=80=9D.  The =E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D implies th=
at there is a choice
(i.e. it is optional) and that other discovery mechanisms exist.  What are
those other choices?  Note that earlier in this section you already wrote
that IGPs are used for flooding the information.  s/MAY/may

#Ahmed: This document gives an example of a use of the SRLB. Listing all
possible uses of the SRLB is certainly not within the scope of this
document.

I=E2=80=99m not sure what your answer has to do with my comment=E2=80=A6but=
 giving examples
is a good reason to *not* use Normative language.

In any case, that piece of text was not changed from:

In a controller-driven network, some controllers or
   applications MAY use the control plane to discover the available set
   of local SIDs on a particular router.  In such cases, the SRLB is
   advertised in the control plane (e.g., using
   [I-D.ietf-isis-segment-routing-extensions
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls-10#ref-=
I-D.ietf-isis-segment-routing-extensions>]).

 =E2=80=A6to=E2=80=A6

In a controller-driven network, some controllers or
   applications MAY use the control plane to discover the available set
   of local SIDs on a particular router [I.D. filsfils-spring-segment-
   routing-policy].


The =E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D is still there (which was the main point of the c=
omment
above), and you added a new reference to apparently illustrate the
point that the control plane can be used "to discover the available
set of local SIDs on a particular router=E2=80=9D.  Isn=E2=80=99t that alre=
ady
specified in the architecture document?  Why do we need this new
reference?



...

P5. References.  Please take a look at rfc8174 and update the =E2=80=9CRequ=
irements
Language=E2=80=9D and associated references.

#Ahmed: I agree. I modified the paragraph about requirements language to
conform to rfc8174

You forgot to include the rfc8174 reference.

Nits



N1. I think that the references to *-segment-routing-extensions are
superfluous.  BTW, the fourth paragraph of the Introduction uses a
reference to *-segment-routing-extensions to point at ISIS/OSPF (the
protocols!).

#Ahmed: I agree. Now we have clear references to each IGP extensions
separately

The point was that I think all references to the extensions are superfluous
=E2=80=94 not a request to add them.

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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" st=
yle=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);mar=
gin:0px;line-height:auto">Ahmed:</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D=
"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0p=
x;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-fa=
mily:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-h=
eight:auto">Hi!</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helv=
etica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:aut=
o"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Ar=
ial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">It=E2=
=80=99s been almost a month, and I haven=E2=80=99t seen a reply from you.</=
div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-=
size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div=
 id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13p=
x;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">I will send the docume=
nt back to the WG by the end of this week.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont=
" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)=
;margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin=
:0px;line-height:auto">Thanks!</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"f=
ont-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;=
line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-hei=
ght:auto">Alvaro.</div> <br><p class=3D"airmail_on">On November 2, 2017 at =
6:49:10 PM, Alvaro Retana (<a href=3D"mailto:aretana.ietf@gmail.com">aretan=
a.ietf@gmail.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_b=
q"><span><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div></div><div>




<title></title>



<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px">
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(=
39,93,144);font-family:Helvetica">On October 30,
2017 at 2:12:18 PM, Ahmed Bashandy (bashandy) (</span><a href=3D"mailto:bas=
handy@cisco.com" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica">bashandy@cisco.com</a> <sp=
an style=3D"color:rgb(39,93,144);font-family:Helvetica">)
wrote:</span></div>
</div>
<p class=3D"airmail_on"><font face=3D"Helvetica">Ahmed:</font></p>
<p class=3D"airmail_on"><font face=3D"Helvetica">Hi!=C2=A0 How are
you?</font></p>
<p class=3D"airmail_on"><font face=3D"Helvetica">...</font></p>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica=
,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weigh=
t:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div>
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The main questions/concerns that I have
related to this document is not just for the authors, but for the
Shepherd and the Chairs too.=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Q1. Why is this document on the Standards
Track? From the Introduction: =E2=80=9CThis drafts describes how Segment
Routing operates on top of the MPLS data plane.=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 Describes,
yes.=C2=A0 On the other hand, the Shepherd=E2=80=99s write-up says that it
=E2=80=9Cspecifies the generic functions of the architecture=E2=80=9D =E2=
=80=93 I don=E2=80=99t see
a specification, just a description.=C2=A0 As such, I think this
document should be Informational.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">#Ahmed: The new version of the draft specifies
many things that are applicable to instantiation of SR over
MPLS</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p>I=E2=80=99ll take your answer as confirming that the old version (-10)
wasn=E2=80=99t really specifying anything.</p>
<p>For this new version (-11), can you please be specific on what
these =E2=80=9Cmany things=E2=80=9D are?</p>
<p>I see some new Normative Language in the new 2.x sub-sections.
=C2=A0I have some specific comments on that:</p>
<p>Q1.A. Section=C2=A02.2. (SID Representation in the MPLS
Forwarding Plane):</p>
<pre class=3D"newpage">The MCC MUST ensure that any label value correspondi=
ng to any SID it
   installs in the forwarding plane follows the following rules:

   o  The label value MUST be unique within the router on which the MCC
      is running. i.e. the label MUST only be used to represent the SID.

   o  The label value MUST NOT be identical to or within the range of
      any reserved label value or range [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/=
html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls-11#ref-reserved-MPLS" title=3D"=
&quot;Special-Purpose Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) Label Values&quo=
t;">reserved-MPLS</a>], respectively.


<font face=3D"Helvetica">These seem to be new requirements for the MCCs. Gi=
ven that the protocol extensions (and LDP) are defined (in Section 2) as MC=
Cs, how are they supposed to follow these rules, specially the first one? A=
s far as I can tell, the IGP extensions (for example) can carry Label/SID i=
nformation from an advertising node, so I don=E2=80=99t know how a local MC=
C (remote to that advertising node, which is locally &quot;installing forwa=
rding entries in the MPLS data plane=E2=80=9D) can guarantee what the label=
 is used for (=E2=80=9Conly used to represent the SID=E2=80=9D). Maybe I=E2=
=80=99m missing something and this is already specified somewhere else=E2=
=80=A6??</font><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial"><br></span></pre=
>
<div><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial">The second rule
is just what the MPLS Architecture already specifies, no nothing
new, right? BTW, the link in the reserved-MPLS reference doesn=E2=80=99t
work =E2=80=94 a better reference might be rfc3032 or rfc7274.</span>
<p><br></p>
<p>Q1.B. Section=C2=A02.3. (Segment Routing Global Block and Local
Block):</p>
<pre class=3D"newpage">The following rules apply to the list of MPLS ranges=
 representing the
   SRGB

   o  The list of label ranges MUST only be used to instantiate global
      SIDs into the MPLS forwarding plane

   o  Every range in the list of ranges specifying the SRGB MUST NOT
      cover or overlap with a reserved label value or range [reserved-
      MPLS], respectively.
     . . .
   Just like SRGB, the SRLB need not be a single
   contiguous range of label, except the SRGB MUST only be used to
   instantiate global SIDs into the MPLS forwarding plane.

</pre>
<span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica">The first rule (and the text
below them) points to the global nature of the SR *global* Block.
The architecture document already says that &quot;In SR-MPLS, SRGB is a
local property of a node and identifies the set of local labels
reserved for global segments.=E2=80=9D Nothing new specified here.</span>
<pre class=3D"newpage">            <span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica">
</span>
                                 =20
<span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica">Q1.C. Section </span><font face=3D"He=
lvetica">2.4. (Mapping a SID Index to an MPLS label) introduces an algorith=
m to calculate the label value.  Note that the architecture document now in=
cludes an algorithm (in Section 3.1.2) as well =E2=80=94 the algorithm in t=
his document doesn=E2=80=99t look to be the same, but even if it is, it wou=
ld be confusing to specify the same thing in two places.</font>
                 =20
                 =20
                 =20
<span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial">Q1.D. The rest of the sub-secti=
ons seem to rehash forwarding behaviors, which, because of the fact that th=
e MPLS architecture is not changing, seem to add nothing interesting or imp=
ortant to this document.</span>
                 =20

</pre>
<pre class=3D"newpage"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial">Having s=
aid all that, I still don=E2=80=99t see a clear justification for this docu=
ment to be in the Standards Track.</span>
                <span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial">         </span=
>
</pre>
<pre></pre>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica=
,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weigh=
t:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div>
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Helv=
etica">Q2. Section 2.
(MPLS Instantiation of Segment Routing) is the only one with any
real content=E2=80=A6but there are only a couple of things in it that are
not in the Architecture document: the introduction of the SRLB, and
some words about the index =E2=80=93 both of which should be really
explained in the Architecture document, and not here.=C2=A0 I
wonder what the value of publishing this document really is.=C2=A0
What long-term archival value does it provide?</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><font face=3D"Helvetica" color=3D"#1F497D">#Ah=
med: The long term plan is to move details of
MPLS-specific specifications to this document and keep the
architecture document more general</font></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p>The =E2=80=9Clong term plan=E2=80=9D ??=C2=A0 What do you mean?=C2=A0 Th=
e
architecture document is already in IETF Last Call =E2=80=94 are you saying
that both documents still require more changes and are not ready
for publication?=C2=A0 I really hope that is not what you
mean.=C2=A0</p>
<p>In any case, you did not answer my question about the value of
the document as is.=C2=A0 No worries, the intent is not to stop
publication, but to understand whether there is something I=E2=80=99m
missing and the relationship to the proposed Status.</p>
<p><br></p>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica=
,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weigh=
t:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Helv=
etica">Q3. I also have
to wonder about the IPR declared for this document.=C2=A0 If most
of the information here is already defined, described or specified
in draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing, should the IPR declaration
apply to that document as well (or maybe instead of this
one)?=C2=A0 It is not the IETF=E2=80=99s role (including the WG) to discuss
whether a piece of IPR is valid or not =E2=80=93 I just want to make sure
the disclosures apply to the right document.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><font face=3D"Helvetica" color=3D"#1F497D">#Ah=
med: We will make sure that all IPR is
declared</font></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p>That was not my question! =C2=A0 And declaring IPR at this point
in time is very, very late (rfc6701).</p>
<p><br></p>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica=
,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weigh=
t:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Helv=
etica">I didn=E2=80=99t find a
discussion on the list about any of these points.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p>I am concerned about all the text that has been added (which in
my opinion doesn=E2=80=99t contribute much to the document), resulting in
about a 70% increase the document length!=C2=A0 I will wait for
your answer to my points above before returning the document to the
WG for a thorough review.</p>
<p><br></p>
<p>I have some other specific comments below.</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>Alvaro.</p>
<p>...</p>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica=
,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weigh=
t:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><font face=3D"Helvetica" color=3D"#1F497D">P3.=
 Section 2. (MPLS Instantiation of Segment Routing)
says that =E2=80=9Ca controller-driven network=E2=80=A6MAY use the control =
plane to
discover the available set of local SIDs=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 The =E2=80=9CMAY=
=E2=80=9D implies
that there is a choice (i.e. it is optional) and that other
discovery mechanisms exist.=C2=A0 What are those other
choices?=C2=A0 Note that earlier in this section you already wrote
that IGPs are used for flooding the information.=C2=A0
s/MAY/may</font></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><font face=3D"Helvetica" color=3D"#1F497D">#Ah=
med: This document gives an example of a use of the
SRLB. Listing all possible uses of the SRLB is certainly not within
the scope of this document.</font></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p>I=E2=80=99m not sure what your answer has to do with my comment=E2=80=A6=
but
giving examples is a good reason to *not* use Normative
language.</p>
<p>In any case, that piece of text was not changed from:</p>
<pre class=3D"newpage">In a controller-driven network, some controllers or
   applications MAY use the control plane to discover the available set
   of local SIDs on a particular router.  In such cases, the SRLB is
   advertised in the control plane (e.g., using
   [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routin=
g-mpls-10#ref-I-D.ietf-isis-segment-routing-extensions">I-D.ietf-isis-segme=
nt-routing-extensions</a>]).

<span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial">                </span>
 <font face=3D"Helvetica">=E2=80=A6to=E2=80=A6</font>
                     =20
</pre>
<pre class=3D"newpage">In a controller-driven network, some controllers or
   applications MAY use the control plane to discover the available set
   of local SIDs on a particular router [I.D. filsfils-spring-segment-
   routing-policy].</pre>
<pre class=3D"newpage"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica"><br></span></p=
re>
<pre class=3D"newpage"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica">The =E2=80=9CM=
AY=E2=80=9D is still there (which was the main point of the comment above),=
 and you added a new reference to apparently illustrate the point that the =
control plane can be used &quot;to discover the available set of local SIDs=
 on a particular router=E2=80=9D.  Isn=E2=80=99t that already specified in =
the architecture document?  Why do we need this new reference?</span></pre>
<pre class=3D"newpage">                     =20
                     =20
...
</pre>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica=
,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weigh=
t:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div>
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Helv=
etica">P5.
References.=C2=A0 Please take a look at rfc8174 and update the
=E2=80=9CRequirements Language=E2=80=9D and associated references.</span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><font face=3D"Helvetica" color=3D"#1F497D">#Ah=
med: I agree. I modified the paragraph about
requirements language to conform to rfc8174</font></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p>You forgot to include the rfc8174 reference.</p>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica=
,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weigh=
t:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div>
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Helv=
etica">Nits</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><font face=3D"Helvetica" color=3D"#1F497D">=C2=
=A0</font></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><font face=3D"Helvetica" color=3D"#1F497D">N1.=
 I think that the references to
*-segment-routing-extensions are superfluous.=C2=A0 BTW, the fourth
paragraph of the Introduction uses a reference to
*-segment-routing-extensions to point at ISIS/OSPF (the
protocols!).</font></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><font face=3D"Helvetica" color=3D"#1F497D">#Ah=
med: I agree. Now we have clear references to each IGP
extensions separately</font></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p>The point was that I think all references to the extensions are
superfluous =E2=80=94 not a request to add them.</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>


</div></div></span></blockquote> <div id=3D"bloop_sign_1512080751297408000"=
 class=3D"bloop_sign"></div></body></html>

--001a1141c090f82ef2055f3abf53--


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Subject: [spring] Genart telechat review of draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases-11
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Reviewer: Stewart Bryant
Review result: Not Ready

I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area
Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please wait for direction from your
document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft.

For more information, please see the FAQ at

<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq>.

Document: draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases-11
Reviewer: Stewart Bryant
Review Date: 2017-11-30
IETF LC End Date: 2017-05-04
IESG Telechat date: 2017-12-14

Summary: The document has clearly been improved by the removal of the MPLS
text. It is now quite a short draft. However a number of major issues appear to
remain.

Major issues:

The homenet section calls up an enterprise related draft, but none of the
homenet drafts. As I understand it homenet also supports source-destination
routeing. Is the use case really the home environment? If so there really needs
to be text explaining why the apparently competing solution is needed. If the
use case is the Enterprise environment perhaps the section name should be
changed.

The authors did not address my question from the previous review concerning how
the necessary routing information is provided given that the homenet WG are
using a distance vector routing protocol.

There seems to be an outstanding comment concerning the text

  "Information included in the SPRING header, whether imposed by the
   end-host itself, a customer edge router, or within the access network
   of the ISP, may be of use at the far ends of the data communication
   as well.  For example, an application running on an end-host with
   application-support in a data center can utilize the SPRING header as
   a channel to include information that affects its treatment within
   the data center itself, allowing for application-level steering and
   load-balancing without relying upon implicit application
   classification techniques at the data-center edge.  Further, as more
   and more application traffic is encrypted, the ability to extract
   (and include in the SPRING header) just enough information to enable
   the network and data center to load-balance and steer traffic
   appropriately becomes more and more important."

SB> However there is a trust issue with sharing information in this way
SB> and it was a breach of trust that caused the source routing feature
SB> to be removed from IPv6 in the first place.
SB>
SB> For this to be a valid use case I think you need to address the
SB> trust and security issues to explain why they are no longer relevant
SB> or make it clear that they need to be addressed.

I don't thing the following question was addressed from my previous review:

   The need to setup a source-based path, going through some specific
   middle/intermediate points in the network may be related to different
   requirements:

SB> There needs to be some discussion on the trust model here and
SB> attack vectors associated with this proposal.

This remains from my previous review:

An ingress node steers a packet through
   a controlled set of instructions, called segments, by prepending the
   packet with SPRING header.

SB> That is what I think it should do, but that is not the design direction
SB> of the current IPv6 proposal. The design of record modifies the
SB> IPv6 header.

As I understand the design the it does not prepend (i.e. use an encapsulation
or a tunnel) it modifies the IPv6 header and then inserts a block of data
between the header and the transport header.

I do not recall seeing an answer to this question from the previous review:

   In an environment, where each single cache system can be uniquely
   identified by its own IPv6 address, a list containing a sequence of
   the caches in a hierarchy can be built.  At each node (cache) in the
   list, the presence of the requested content if checked.  If the
   requested content is found at the cache (cache hits scenario) the
   sequence ends, even if there are more nodes in the list; otherwise
   next element in the list (next node/cache) is examined.

SB> This needs some discussion on the alternative approaches:
SB> for example service function chaining and an ICN overlay.

Minor issues: None

Nits/editorial comments: None



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The IESG has received a request from the Source Packet Routing in Networking
WG (spring) to consider the following document: - 'BGP-Prefix Segment in
large-scale data centers'
  <draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-msdc-06.txt> as Informational RFC

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final
comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2017-12-14. Exceptionally, comments may be
sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of
the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

Abstract


   This document describes the motivation and benefits for applying
   segment routing in BGP-based large-scale data-centers.  It describes
   the design to deploy segment routing in those data-centers, for both
   the MPLS and IPv6 dataplanes.





The file can be obtained via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-msdc/

IESG discussion can be tracked via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-msdc/ballot/


No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.




