From nobody Fri Oct 30 11:43:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9634F3A1111; Fri, 30 Oct 2020 11:42:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_FAIL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bobbriscoe.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tTl149Xl94mq; Fri, 30 Oct 2020 11:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cl3.bcs-hosting.net (cl3.bcs-hosting.net [3.11.37.202]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7AE33A110F; Fri, 30 Oct 2020 11:42:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bobbriscoe.net; s=default; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:Cc: To:Subject:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=6xA+nTzaN5LFDK7VVa52uyDsSq/QSIPJmpsYsFJn8Ic=; b=DYU6GgU0g6/uZbSh4brJqplzoS 2DPYGcdZKcZYC2VfBQhWzg1s2TL0x5HdMirSnx2edYrfTnks/8NAwP+1ylTf3WT59e2IlH5ieNvR+ MDryB8NuhLql/tbU9vdOkQT7JrHkUGmwqn+NLMgItpfIZCCIQc4X/APhj3W2AuP9AUCPsx0DRNdU7 mrjLLSbWDFvTpp+TVPxJ35jHbI/f8qOgj94ij+x50TyiwHI+ycZlUPftTMp8XQoKUBNJrVMa0KEQd P0mRZk8SJLSIcRP3/XwKnOqV4iUsYZwbG8/M13eNoXQA3pYGBVBhb0u5F51aV2fR+LzirjAliBQbT i3NO4mlg==; Received: from 67.153.238.178.in-addr.arpa ([178.238.153.67]:58836 helo=[192.168.1.3]) by cl3.bcs-hosting.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1kYZMR-00Ad0f-LY; Fri, 30 Oct 2020 18:42:51 +0000 From: Bob Briscoe To: tsvwg IETF list Cc: TCP Prague List , iccrg IRTF list , "De Schepper, Koen (Koen)" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2020 18:42:50 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------7047358348D05B4037AB2E1C" Content-Language: en-GB X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cl3.bcs-hosting.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - bobbriscoe.net X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: cl3.bcs-hosting.net: authenticated_id: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Authenticated-Sender: cl3.bcs-hosting.net: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: Subject: [tcpPrague] ecn-l4s-id: Proposed Changed to Normative RTT Bias Text X-BeenThere: tcpprague@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "To coordinate implementation and standardisation of TCP Prague across platforms. TCP Prague will be an evolution of DCTCP designed to live alongside other TCP variants and derivatives." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2020 18:42:59 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7047358348D05B4037AB2E1C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Folks, The co-authors of ECN L4S ID have been reviewing the correctness of the normative 'Prague' requirements.     See https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-10#section-4.3 This is the first of 2 emails, about 2 of the requirements that we think ought to be reworded a little. If you agree with the rationale, but think the new wording still doesn't capture the requirement well, pls suggest sthg better. If you disagree with the rationale, pls discuss. 4.3. Prerequisite Congestion Response ... CURRENT: o A scalable congestion control MUST reduce or eliminate RTT bias over as wide a range of RTTs as possible, or at least over the typical range of RTTs that will interact in the intended deployment scenario (seeAppendix A.1.5 for rationale). PROPOSED: A scalable congestion control MUST eliminate RTT bias as much as possible in the range between the minimum likely RTT and typical RTTs expected in the intended deployment scenario  (see Appendix A.1.5 for rationale). RATIONALE: 1/ "eliminate as much as possible" is stronger than "reduce or eliminate". 2/ This requirement was motivated by 'do no harm to others' relative to existing standard (RFC5681 Reno) congestion control. So there is no need to mandate that an L4S implementer does no harm to themselves, which window-based congestion controls tend to do at higher RTT. Of course, this doesn't preclude implementers reducing or eliminating RTT bias for larger than typical RTTs, but it removes any requirement to do so. Cheers Bob -- ________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ --------------7047358348D05B4037AB2E1C Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Folks,

The co-authors of ECN L4S ID have been reviewing the correctness of the normative 'Prague' requirements.
    See https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-10#section-4.3
This is the first of 2 emails, about 2 of the requirements that we think ought to be reworded a little.

If you agree with the rationale, but think the new wording still doesn't capture the requirement well, pls suggest sthg better.
If you disagree with the rationale, pls discuss.

4.3.  Prerequisite Congestion Response
...
CURRENT:
   o  A scalable congestion control MUST reduce or eliminate RTT bias
      over as wide a range of RTTs as possible, or at least over the
      typical range of RTTs that will interact in the intended
      deployment scenario (see Appendix A.1.5 for rationale).

PROPOSED:
A scalable congestion control MUST eliminate RTT bias as much as possible in the range between the minimum likely RTT and typical RTTs expected
in the intended deployment scenario  (see Appendix A.1.5 for rationale).

RATIONALE:
1/ "eliminate as much as possible" is stronger than "reduce or eliminate".
2/ This requirement was motivated by 'do no harm to others' relative to existing standard (RFC5681 Reno) congestion control. So there is no need to mandate that an L4S implementer does no harm to themselves, which window-based congestion controls tend to do at higher RTT. Of course, this doesn't preclude implementers reducing or eliminating RTT bias for larger than typical RTTs, but it removes any requirement to do so.

Cheers


Bob

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/
--------------7047358348D05B4037AB2E1C-- From nobody Fri Oct 30 13:14:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A5423A11F4; Fri, 30 Oct 2020 13:14:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zce4MetnSfXE; Fri, 30 Oct 2020 13:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B93E3A11F3; Fri, 30 Oct 2020 13:13:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1604088791; bh=w2G7VIZl3/tpH39ae/7OTfN8WnRQRzBS9hpYqILRflY=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=UFwOOa7a2iJMeKuDh8vvBm2T4r0EaKw5n/MCeNihDxI3UyaldcpluTwvW29svDvqD MfMCCEMbv449c8n+fvtcFLXwrxlTWaVX3UNm/EZ5s0NbjvednrtTHtLrqKcxwAoclY QY4svmDuXZXw9cTq0kHcbrMkhD1nlzR4aS5gmWZM= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [134.76.241.253] ([134.76.241.253]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-gmx-bap50.server.lan [172.19.172.120]) (via HTTP); Fri, 30 Oct 2020 21:13:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Sebastian Moeller To: Bob Briscoe Cc: tsvwg IETF list , iccrg IRTF list , TCP Prague List , "De Schepper, Koen (Koen)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2020 21:13:11 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:6UkuDv4y6rzDpzdtDOZLN8AD0NKPcnCoGKmaFWTZj+vguoy7C4uYnzUfRmzWF5n8P+5D+ fRDsY9zQieEiaYsFN4gpp19Od7cz4zAJ5A1OSYGIZOPyE1C1BmQ5yBuAXH0oqBQ+e5KDPG2BH9yD JAJ4MUTZc91veF0muSbceRGQ8+qudQFB6QkJiRpmWcBmDnOvlQ0fFbsXltIE1FNgVLLi7KjqSSiO lR9Pya/yY5o5cgYcnaNJYdNIevbdof7UGSx22HZ626rxDSm/JO023LND2I48ENPRMKpotaLkf0YB uM= X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:VVFq+zCh9gQ=:e/fyVl553r5bOCkBjXzQP1 jT9ToPDZRaXaibIPdGHbjZbj8GcDoYMMXTFknsRD8olEEGrlrp0dwOG3LdphzjmfYzYPV4I5I mZMHZrFd6UcxEu8iIoTPcuQIY8201YviufI5Wxse7Wsnw/xC6byHkca8pMed+f40l1KSIEV8d 3/4Dh4KjSqig9qJJYJWInAEiprB950sU42QbCajXBLbBF9M+Ks4sZKm4tpKY0ZJNSz8JKES4S kAIi4hxUzZgOiQ6oqwLBvQ9qbu5dxHYEukPKhewGFU6zWkJrUrHq+P2ELMaxuWwntKaI35/Pi HQ0vTr6c5ZNyfLtDd74rgoaH2nRtpExdOOrTXCE6iKGz86kFNNrotqQ5MfoDg0FJxBHlOyq4c ZpGyl8+01n58Ht2jxcCaIz1vg4cLEbbbDrykli2DW0Cex30hxkkaj115eaXH+uixVRu3e6SOV gJOr0WsolO89opZ5UAia7tScaQQIbhf6yPao5M4eIRFeYpZXq9/kTDGO9vgwf/TVKzzhIQclx 8xBY2zSm1jcNrxUBbD6z6a5pm2UIUR3HDEmZHE+Q2M8Czbr9Jer/5DTl53xrtxJFCX2cjGfp0 /DscwUyrnkGn0= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tcpPrague] [tsvwg] ecn-l4s-id: Proposed Changed to Normative RTT Bias Text X-BeenThere: tcpprague@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "To coordinate implementation and standardisation of TCP Prague across platforms. TCP Prague will be an evolution of DCTCP designed to live alongside other TCP variants and derivatives." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2020 20:14:03 -0000 Dear Bob, Koen=2E =C2=A0 more below in-line, prefixed [SM]=2E Gesendet:=C2=A0Freitag, 30=2E Oktober 2020 um 19:42 Uhr Von:=C2=A0"Bob Briscoe" An:=C2=A0"tsvwg IETF list" Cc:=C2=A0"iccrg IRTF list" , "TCP Prague List" , "De Schepper, Koen (Koen)" Betreff:=C2=A0[tsvwg] ecn-l4s-id: Proposed Changed to Normative RTT Bias T= ext Folks, The co-authors of ECN L4S ID have been reviewing the correctness of the no= rmative 'Prague' requirements=2E =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 See https://tools=2Eietf=2Eorg/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ec= n-l4s-id-10#section-4=2E3 This is the first of 2 emails, about 2 of the requirements that we think o= ught to be reworded a little=2E If you agree with the rationale, but think the new wording still doesn't c= apture the requirement well, pls suggest sthg better=2E If you disagree with the rationale, pls discuss=2E =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [SM] This pretty much sounds like both an admi= ssion that the original requirement was so broad that is was never achievab= le, and, leaving a bad taste, an attempt to maker the gross hack of "slowin= g the CC response in TCP Prague" by the same 15ms that DualQ adds to the sh= allow queue to make DualQ less catastrophic at short RTT links=2E IMHO the=C2=A0requirement should be scraped, as there is zero evidence tha= t it is at all possible to achieve (short of relaying on oracle schedulers,= or the AQM knowing the RTT of each individual flow)=2E AND the gross hack = in TCP Prague should be taken out again, and instead of trying to cure the = symptoms, the root cause of the issue, dualQ's misdesign, needs to be fixed= for good=2E The observed inequitable sharing between the two queues is cau= sed by dualQ and needs to be fixed by dual queue=2E As proposed this is lik= e re-arranging the deck chairs on the titanic=2E=C2=A0 More to the point though, once L4S is released into the wild, nobody is go= ing to care much for the text in the requirements section at all, as compli= ant behaviour is not checked by L4S's AQM=2E So assuming that changing this= text will have any other effect, than simply making TCP Prague compliant p= ost-hoc (by tailoring the RFC requirements to the little RTT-independence t= hat was achievable in TCP Prague)=2E=20 In my line of work, something like this would be considered a bad f= aith effort close to cheating, but it seems that here at the IETF we operat= e under a considerably more relaxed set of standards? =C2=A0 Regards =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sebastian =C2=A0 =C2=A0 4=2E3=2E Prerequisite Congestion Response =2E=2E=2E CURRENT: o A scalable congestion control MUST reduce or eliminate RTT bias over as wide a range of RTTs as possible, or at least over the typical range of RTTs that will interact in the intended deployment scenario (see Appendix A=2E1=2E5[https://tools=2Eietf=2Eo= rg/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-10#appendix-A=2E1=2E5] for rationale)= =2E PROPOSED: A scalable congestion control MUST eliminate RTT bias as much as possible = in the range between the minimum likely RTT and typical RTTs expected in the intended deployment scenario=C2=A0 (see Appendix A=2E1=2E5 for rati= onale)=2E RATIONALE: 1/ "eliminate as much as possible" is stronger than "reduce or eliminate"= =2E 2/ This requirement was motivated by 'do no harm to others' relative to ex= isting standard (RFC5681 Reno) congestion control=2E So there is no need to= mandate that an L4S implementer does no harm to themselves, which window-b= ased congestion controls tend to do at higher RTT=2E Of course, this doesn'= t preclude implementers reducing or eliminating RTT bias for larger than ty= pical RTTs, but it removes any requirement to do so=2E Cheers Bob =C2=A0 --=20 ________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe=2Enet/[http://= bobbriscoe=2Enet/] From nobody Sat Oct 31 02:54:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A6413A17B7; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 02:54:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_FAIL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bobbriscoe.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i4_zVBObRtje; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 02:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cl3.bcs-hosting.net (cl3.bcs-hosting.net [3.11.37.202]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72FF63A17B6; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 02:54:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bobbriscoe.net; s=default; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:Cc: To:Subject:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=eYKq+VwUEgnW71/T97TQMHOd2A+89tG4e587FYQWBXI=; b=jP+Pi5IN3eQGD5ErfWA4KXgBzP q/s49toYlkgUW4fxlmN13wjbMPX4EBP4K2INd7b9tElHAC5T4uWwAXdqHi3Tr/rGW97py8eo8sd7u +mRwy3tMHzO9h+bAddUtXUXFshuxGmCOJEYNBFzp62FQaw9Pms/vm8hNnbrkdgoUyM17628PRNXi2 9HuAzfbSEgELTEIQ6s+w03zD8WqLqEjl2xxAuCPkdRqh3oMqAdntg93N9bYz92nSef+FKSrq4vteO ZWzsYlCbH2F2Yt/FSlIObT3F0wZZk4VzTwf0YJjwP40F3ILxDifncakxEsG5vVJgGECeE/xsNcyGK n2Hj7uLQ==; Received: from 67.153.238.178.in-addr.arpa ([178.238.153.67]:60906 helo=[192.168.1.3]) by cl3.bcs-hosting.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1kYnad-00F7Iz-ML; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 09:54:27 +0000 From: Bob Briscoe To: tsvwg IETF list Cc: TCP Prague List , iccrg IRTF list , "De Schepper, Koen (Koen)" Message-ID: <1b71a610-75ea-e1d4-e3ce-f0ae6a4c12f7@bobbriscoe.net> Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2020 09:54:26 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------729C9A47D891A9397EB61EE2" Content-Language: en-GB X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cl3.bcs-hosting.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - bobbriscoe.net X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: cl3.bcs-hosting.net: authenticated_id: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Authenticated-Sender: cl3.bcs-hosting.net: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: Subject: [tcpPrague] ecn-l4s-id: Proposed Changed to Normative Classic ECN detection Text X-BeenThere: tcpprague@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "To coordinate implementation and standardisation of TCP Prague across platforms. TCP Prague will be an evolution of DCTCP designed to live alongside other TCP variants and derivatives." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2020 09:54:33 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------729C9A47D891A9397EB61EE2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Folks, The co-authors of ECN L4S ID have been reviewing the correctness of the normative 'Prague' requirements.     See https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-10#section-4.3 This is the second of 2 emails, about 2 of the requirements that we think ought to be reworded a little. If you agree with the rationale, but think the new wording still doesn't fully capture the requirement, pls suggest sthg better. If you disagree with the rationale, pls discuss. 4.3. Prerequisite Congestion Response ... CURRENT: o A scalable congestion control MUST react to ECN marking from a non-L4S but ECN-capable bottleneck in a way that will coexist with a TCP Reno congestion control [RFC5681 ] (seeAppendix A.1.4 for rationale).  Note that a scalable congestion control is not expected to change to setting ECT(0) while it falls back to coexist with Reno. PROPOSED:    o  A scalable congestion control MUST implement monitoring in order       to detect a likely non-L4S but ECN-capable AQM at the bottleneck.       On detection of a likely ECN-capable bottleneck it SHOULD be       capable (dependent on configuration) of automatically adapting its       congestion response to coexist with TCP Reno congestion controls       [RFC5681] (see Appendix A.1.4 for rationale and a referenced       algorithm).       Note that a scalable congestion control is not expected to change       to setting ECT(0) while it falls back to coexist with Reno. RATIONALE: 1/ The requirement as currently written says what an omniscient sender MUST do. So there's an implied requirement that a sender MUST be omniscient, which is of course impossible. 2/ The requirement needs to be recast to require a sender to aim to be as knowledgeable as possible. Then, what it does as a result needs to take into account the a priori likelihood of there being a non-L4S bottleneck present. 3/ This includes the possibility that the operator of the host knows that the network it serves has not deployed any single queue classic ECN AQM (e.g. in a CDN case they're doing out of band testing, or they've asked the ISP). So we've included the possibility of fall-back being disabled by configuration. 4/ Nonetheless, as has been pointed out on the list, there is still a possibility that there is a Classic ECN AQM somewhere else on the path (to continue the CDN example, perhaps beyond the ISP in a home network). The 'MUST monitor' requirement still stands to ensure the operator doesn't miss these cases. 5/ Then, if the server operators have disabled fall-back for their deployment, they can reconsider their policy or at least do more focused testing if they are frequently detecting a single-queue Classic ECN AQM. Items 3-5 are the "react via management" model that I've talked about on the list, given the unfairness doesn't amount to starvation, and it is possible that the prevalence of the problem is very low. Finally, after the bullet list of requirements in section 4.3, (which are prerequisites for setting the ECT1 codepoint), we propose to add the following requirement, as suggested on the tsvwg list:       To participate in the L4S experiment, a scalable congestion control MUST       be capable of being replaced by a Classic congestion control (by       application and by administrative control). A Classic congestion control       will not tag its packets with the ECT(1) codepoint. Cheers Bob -- ________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoehttp://bobbriscoe.net/ --------------729C9A47D891A9397EB61EE2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Folks,

The co-authors of ECN L4S ID have been reviewing the correctness of the normative 'Prague' requirements.
    See https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-10#section-4.3
This is the second of 2 emails, about 2 of the requirements that we think ought to be reworded a little.

If you agree with the rationale, but think the new wording still doesn't fully capture the requirement, pls suggest sthg better.
If you disagree with the rationale, pls discuss.

4.3.  Prerequisite Congestion Response
...
CURRENT:

   o  A scalable congestion control MUST react to ECN marking from a
      non-L4S but ECN-capable bottleneck in a way that will coexist with
      a TCP Reno congestion control [RFC5681] (see Appendix A.1.4 for
      rationale).

      Note that a scalable congestion control is not expected to change
      to setting ECT(0) while it falls back to coexist with Reno.
 
PROPOSED:
   o  A scalable congestion control MUST implement monitoring in order
      to detect a likely non-L4S but ECN-capable AQM at the bottleneck.
      On detection of a likely ECN-capable bottleneck it SHOULD be
      capable (dependent on configuration) of automatically adapting its
      congestion response to coexist with TCP Reno congestion controls
      [RFC5681] (see Appendix A.1.4 for rationale and a referenced
      algorithm).

      Note that a scalable congestion control is not expected to change
      to setting ECT(0) while it falls back to coexist with Reno.

RATIONALE:
1/ The requirement as currently written says what an omniscient sender MUST do. So there's an implied requirement that a sender MUST be omniscient, which is of course impossible.
2/ The requirement needs to be recast to require a sender to aim to be as knowledgeable as possible. Then, what it does as a result needs to take into account the a priori likelihood of there being a non-L4S bottleneck present.
3/ This includes the possibility that the operator of the host knows that the network it serves has not deployed any single queue classic ECN AQM (e.g. in a CDN case they're doing out of band testing, or they've asked the ISP). So we've included the possibility of fall-back being disabled by configuration.
4/ Nonetheless, as has been pointed out on the list, there is still a possibility that there is a Classic ECN AQM somewhere else on the path (to continue the CDN example, perhaps beyond the ISP in a home network). The 'MUST monitor' requirement still stands to ensure the operator doesn't miss these cases.
5/ Then, if the server operators have disabled fall-back for their deployment, they can reconsider their policy or at least do more focused testing if they are frequently detecting a single-queue Classic ECN AQM.

Items 3-5 are the "react via management" model that I've talked about on the list, given the unfairness doesn't amount to starvation, and it is possible that the prevalence of the problem is very low.


Finally, after the bullet list of requirements in section 4.3, (which are prerequisites for setting the ECT1 codepoint), we propose to add the following requirement, as suggested on the tsvwg list:

      To participate in the L4S experiment, a scalable congestion control MUST
      be capable of being replaced by a Classic congestion control (by
      application and by administrative control). A Classic congestion control
      will not tag its packets with the ECT(1) codepoint.

Cheers


Bob


-- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/
--------------729C9A47D891A9397EB61EE2-- From nobody Sat Oct 31 03:38:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6E6F3A1916; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 03:38:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.346 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.346 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, SPF_HELO_FAIL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bobbriscoe.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MCJsozAb7iFR; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 03:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cl3.bcs-hosting.net (cl3.bcs-hosting.net [3.11.37.202]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9960F3A1912; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 03:38:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bobbriscoe.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type: In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender :Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help: List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=/ULJhj7w01hYscSHiYlLY2tIRpkPoDyGR4WXyUcl+9M=; b=WOKccYIS3mwWQ5TdTI/fiSvQoF Cf0bWokctz1nvyzzfTfpx8x4ag8nkZHxjhIpkVZ6T/cKFxYtXR5597aa1GAr5Nd7aFpAkB4dI++19 BlBEcaPFtl7ulHetzPqj8fU+SrCH6i78RIWFULymcZgUbMHnzri9uAM6TKaQ+RO4gZKrs6p8ecAGM sFJ0i4Xmyux23xz2V1lcaHqEQKP2gAlDnPhS/X9yleczlZMOJtWs659KL1tJyFG2YSxnLYT7DNZhM P7axMLxQ48dZvM5obrKRwgMaUQBpaLpbpSblAiBmEV5ekrKLHNBRppaUKwj7zT6KdJcasRIZr0nB6 DaIrULCg==; Received: from 67.153.238.178.in-addr.arpa ([178.238.153.67]:60966 helo=[192.168.1.3]) by cl3.bcs-hosting.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1kYoH7-00FwiK-TQ; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 10:38:21 +0000 To: Sebastian Moeller Cc: tsvwg IETF list , iccrg IRTF list , TCP Prague List , "De Schepper, Koen (Koen)" References: From: Bob Briscoe Message-ID: Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2020 10:38:21 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-GB X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cl3.bcs-hosting.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - bobbriscoe.net X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: cl3.bcs-hosting.net: authenticated_id: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Authenticated-Sender: cl3.bcs-hosting.net: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tcpPrague] [tsvwg] ecn-l4s-id: Proposed Changed to Normative RTT Bias Text X-BeenThere: tcpprague@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "To coordinate implementation and standardisation of TCP Prague across platforms. TCP Prague will be an evolution of DCTCP designed to live alongside other TCP variants and derivatives." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2020 10:38:26 -0000 Sebastian, I am not going to respond to emails like yours that presume evil intent. Please readjust your sad view of humanity, then re-read. If you then have nothing to add, pls stay silent. The rate being inversely proportional to RTT is a feature of all window-fair congestion controls, including the Reno standard [RFC5168]. As explained in the rationale linked from the requirement, the only reason Reno (or any windw-based CC) doesn't continue to get faster at low /base/ RTTs is the additional queuing delay it induces. So the more one removes this queuing delay (CoDel and PIE also suffered from this problem), the more the denominator tends to the base RTT. So at the low end of the base RTT range, the inverse proportionality pushes the rate considerably higher. A CC that has no RTT bias would satisfy this requirement. But making that the requirement would have been overly prescriptive. So we're trying to write the wording not to exclude the RTT bias that the Internet already works with today. Particularly because the stability implications of moving away from the current Internet norm need to be treated with care. Bob On 30/10/2020 20:13, Sebastian Moeller wrote: > Dear Bob, Koen. > > more below in-line, prefixed [SM]. > > Gesendet: Freitag, 30. Oktober 2020 um 19:42 Uhr > Von: "Bob Briscoe" > An: "tsvwg IETF list" > Cc: "iccrg IRTF list" , "TCP Prague List" , "De Schepper, Koen (Koen)" > Betreff: [tsvwg] ecn-l4s-id: Proposed Changed to Normative RTT Bias Text > > Folks, > > The co-authors of ECN L4S ID have been reviewing the correctness of the normative 'Prague' requirements. >     See https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-10#section-4.3 > This is the first of 2 emails, about 2 of the requirements that we think ought to be reworded a little. > > If you agree with the rationale, but think the new wording still doesn't capture the requirement well, pls suggest sthg better. > If you disagree with the rationale, pls discuss. > >         [SM] This pretty much sounds like both an admission that the original requirement was so broad that is was never achievable, and, leaving a bad taste, an attempt to maker the gross hack of "slowing the CC response in TCP Prague" by the same 15ms that DualQ adds to the shallow queue to make DualQ less catastrophic at short RTT links. > IMHO the requirement should be scraped, as there is zero evidence that it is at all possible to achieve (short of relaying on oracle schedulers, or the AQM knowing the RTT of each individual flow). AND the gross hack in TCP Prague should be taken out again, and instead of trying to cure the symptoms, the root cause of the issue, dualQ's misdesign, needs to be fixed for good. The observed inequitable sharing between the two queues is caused by dualQ and needs to be fixed by dual queue. As proposed this is like re-arranging the deck chairs on the titanic. > More to the point though, once L4S is released into the wild, nobody is going to care much for the text in the requirements section at all, as compliant behaviour is not checked by L4S's AQM. So assuming that changing this text will have any other effect, than simply making TCP Prague compliant post-hoc (by tailoring the RFC requirements to the little RTT-independence that was achievable in TCP Prague). > In my line of work, something like this would be considered a bad faith effort close to cheating, but it seems that here at the IETF we operate under a considerably more relaxed set of standards? > > Regards >         Sebastian > > > 4.3. Prerequisite Congestion Response > ... > CURRENT: > o A scalable congestion control MUST reduce or eliminate RTT bias > over as wide a range of RTTs as possible, or at least over the > typical range of RTTs that will interact in the intended > deployment scenario (see Appendix A.1.5[https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-10#appendix-A.1.5] for rationale). > PROPOSED: > A scalable congestion control MUST eliminate RTT bias as much as possible in the range between the minimum likely RTT and typical RTTs expected > in the intended deployment scenario  (see Appendix A.1.5 for rationale). > > RATIONALE: > 1/ "eliminate as much as possible" is stronger than "reduce or eliminate". > 2/ This requirement was motivated by 'do no harm to others' relative to existing standard (RFC5681 Reno) congestion control. So there is no need to mandate that an L4S implementer does no harm to themselves, which window-based congestion controls tend to do at higher RTT. Of course, this doesn't preclude implementers reducing or eliminating RTT bias for larger than typical RTTs, but it removes any requirement to do so. > > Cheers > > > Bob > -- ________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ From nobody Sat Oct 31 04:04:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 803593A0E13; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 04:03:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.149 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.149 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, THIS_AD=1.399, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id STLNgdgxC6Lc; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 04:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32AE53A0DB2; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 04:03:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1604142186; bh=4SKN6JTk9IZjNA7GLr8t6ZyitPEZ7E5mJR4u+aSpYAc=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=cBSqbqvvFwIomVG9PMNOkp1MLx1WOemfdh+us3mRKujIg026tM6geAOx7KWIxr0c0 JRQk7jjkK4cu24B8HUQU74KN0oKcQYaSovQspt86fCdMZMoI9X01Uf2PZMBEeChWKt c8HjsXG7+3kGTYkhaSplmxpU1kpFcfNBTnP4D+xc= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [134.76.241.253] ([134.76.241.253]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-gmx-bs36.server.lan [172.19.170.88]) (via HTTP); Sat, 31 Oct 2020 12:03:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Sebastian Moeller To: Bob Briscoe Cc: tsvwg IETF list , iccrg IRTF list , TCP Prague List , "De Schepper, Koen (Koen)" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2020 12:03:06 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: References: X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:eo7+huyq8TnUK1HKzh9y+oHTiGKWVDl15OvOPQyrOiyu1Jyh3FadqyJTbpn+6ceF1Uo05 kARPK8DqwQhr6/jn/uI2jd7IfEIjhlPmf0LshzetUPYlBWpCZINR4CfSt5SCnD9q9kRsfdIlZbvb N2ehtaRVaCTkPg0CSoOyfhkvmA/zSnS94Z9SRjDdUx6DArzmarPQOC5k3Hp+QvdaKRoMTfK7ceX+ x+uLMivKZNpKgX/KqM3AzTfvAELj8k+rMyg5FCSgLrdQgOCsR+RSqhEcYzF6qwlpu1Oa30Ow3JyD Z4= X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:cwLno+mHwSc=:ObDoHEBvOwqMwYL4ya69KI vfMmOJ4jaStP3CNjJzRcYzKKhSRvSGAfgVMZcEzaXhLA5fl+XEwAAwSaVvKK0pXnsK5M/Rjt5 +K+DuvUX4l86GY09JwVO4P4s9TAdcluvCmTHKZxnh1TeXVRUWWoOGq8N0Xpcs60EG7PZrEuxw DQATwwL2WyX8nyGEt8vi81Wo1Xcwz6narKKpwOIGv7J5vDtRj2XUQDYZrF26vDVkPg/CIZdK2 uMP8QSAb7YAGrc1R52HM/KMoSCMzdWsg4NLx/Rb5PfboA8tV3LNsN5Xm/vFn7evV7ijFdTFW5 u2cTTgtWwIeFEQKjLuxbjdiMCadAx/g5zqdJPCjkFxzQfWjC1C5EQPyO5ZtOIJQ9GqVZBs95S jjpCYUK9VEA02GtHfY5g3TDV0wDEPNfShAYoPHNxpFeztv6qAeFwu7qwyWm+dOcYJm2kuk+Bw PNLdheOl1IQoNhcbRKyi328CqYY34djEylhoMopeUdS4fx/cOlc191m/qwvBdCX7QXyxOpOPt eDugrvYqAgiv8zpKHVTJE6bQPStXTJoOwb+OKXEoY/0gKGnGO4mw6OtuAGQkzRtjvhJ8G4fh5 L7vOk+QsC/yvE= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tcpPrague] [tsvwg] ecn-l4s-id: Proposed Changed to Normative RTT Bias Text X-BeenThere: tcpprague@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "To coordinate implementation and standardisation of TCP Prague across platforms. TCP Prague will be an evolution of DCTCP designed to live alongside other TCP variants and derivatives." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2020 11:03:59 -0000
Dear Bob,
 
more below in-line, prefixed [SM2]
 
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 31. Oktober 2020 um 11:38 Uhr
Von: "Bob Briscoe" <research@bobbriscoe.net>
An: "Sebastian Moeller" <moeller0@gmx.de>
Cc: "tsvwg IETF list" <tsvwg@ietf.org>, "iccrg IRTF list" <iccrg@irtf.org>, "TCP Prague List" <tcpPrague@ietf.org>, "De Schepper, Koen (Koen)" <koen.de_schepper@nokia.com>
Betreff: Re: Aw: [tsvwg] ecn-l4s-id: Proposed Changed to Normative RTT Bias Text
Sebastian,

I am not going to respond to emails like yours that presume evil intent.
 
        [SM2] You just did. Make of this what you will, but please stop the posturing and get to the data and the facts.
 

Please readjust your sad view of humanity, then re-read. If you then
have nothing to add, pls stay silent.
 
        [SM2] My view of humanity is well, thank you very much, I do not confuse team L4S  with its shady practices and acumen with humanty in general. So copud we stop these attempts at distracting from the fact that your proposed change is a fudge and a clear attempt at post-hoc making L4S RFC compliant, by adjusting the requirement instead of adjusting the L4S design. In this specific case you have my sympathy as the requirement is really impossible to full fill in a meaningful way. The only real option is to dumb down your CC response dynamis for a fixed RTT, and that is clearly a hack and in no way a solution that offers increased path-RTT independence. I am sorry that you seem to still consider your TCP Prague 15ms hack as acceptable.

The rate being inversely proportional to RTT is a feature of all
window-fair congestion controls, including the Reno standard [RFC5168].
 
        [SM2] It also is a consequence of tighter control loops (smaller RTT) being more nimble ans effective than looser ones (greater RTT). The end points can not solve this issue, period. Not within our given pysical constraints that is. As I was reminded recently, the bottleneck AQM however COULD, as it has most of the relevant information available. But you opted to keep a clearly deficient AQM design and instead attempt the impossible by requiring the endpioints to effectively establish faster than light communication. That is ambitious to phraze is poitively.
 

As explained in the rationale linked from the requirement, the only
reason Reno (or any windw-based CC) doesn't continue to get faster at
low /base/ RTTs is the additional queuing delay it induces.
 
        [SM2] That YOUR AQM introduces, without any data shoewing why 15ms was selected. You can not argue out of the fact that the INCREASED RTT dependence at short RTTs observed in DualQ is of your own making. Pretending that this is just a case of normal RTT dependence is a bit naive, and ignoring cause and effect IMHO. Sorry that this is a bit harsh, but we have gone though this ad nauseam already and I prefer to call a spade a spade.
 

So the more one removes this queuing delay (CoDel and PIE also suffered
from this problem), the more the denominator tends to the base RTT.
So at the low end of the base RTT range, the inverse proportionality
pushes the rate considerably higher.
 
        [SM2] Yes, but nobody forces you to COUPLE your two queues in a way that this difference results in differentisl throughput, doing so is a design mistake in DualQ, as so often an initially cute idea that showed some promise did not survive the contact with harsh reality. So far so normal, what is not normal is trying to save that clear misdesign by spreading work-arounds over different layers and fudging the requirement to make these work-arounds not violate the requirements.

A CC that has no RTT bias would satisfy this requirement.
 
        [SM2] Sure, but that is made of unobtainium or rather FTL communication, not a problem resolvable in the scope of L4S, sorry.
 

But making that the requirement would have been overly prescriptive.
So we're trying to write the wording not to exclude the RTT bias that
the Internet already works with today.
 
        [SM2] How about removing a requirement that SIMPLY can not be solved by the endpooints? TCP Prague tried, and as it is clear failed to do so for anything but the special case of the 15ms artifical delay introduced by DualQ. BTW has anybody tried how TCP Prague and TCP-Cubic no compete on say curvy red (or rather any AQM wirhout that brain dead coupling)?

Particularly because the stability implications of moving away from the
current Internet norm need to be treated with care.

        [SM2] Could you elaborate how that is related to requiring the impossible? All of this would be funny, if you would not actually try to force down this clearly under-tested and probably unfinished experiment onto the existing internet with as little od safety measures as you can get away with. Again this soun´ds harsh as less clear wording in the past has simply been argued away or ignored. 
 
Sebastian

Bob

On 30/10/2020 20:13, Sebastian Moeller wrote:
> Dear Bob, Koen.
>
> more below in-line, prefixed [SM].
>
> Gesendet: Freitag, 30. Oktober 2020 um 19:42 Uhr
> Von: "Bob Briscoe" <research@bobbriscoe.net>
> An: "tsvwg IETF list" <tsvwg@ietf.org>
> Cc: "iccrg IRTF list" <iccrg@irtf.org>, "TCP Prague List" <tcpPrague@ietf.org>, "De Schepper, Koen (Koen)" <koen.de_schepper@nokia.com>
> Betreff: [tsvwg] ecn-l4s-id: Proposed Changed to Normative RTT Bias Text
>
> Folks,
>
> The co-authors of ECN L4S ID have been reviewing the correctness of the normative 'Prague' requirements.
>     See https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-10#section-4.3
> This is the first of 2 emails, about 2 of the requirements that we think ought to be reworded a little.
>
> If you agree with the rationale, but think the new wording still doesn't capture the requirement well, pls suggest sthg better.
> If you disagree with the rationale, pls discuss.
>
>         [SM] This pretty much sounds like both an admission that the original requirement was so broad that is was never achievable, and, leaving a bad taste, an attempt to maker the gross hack of "slowing the CC response in TCP Prague" by the same 15ms that DualQ adds to the shallow queue to make DualQ less catastrophic at short RTT links.
> IMHO the requirement should be scraped, as there is zero evidence that it is at all possible to achieve (short of relaying on oracle schedulers, or the AQM knowing the RTT of each individual flow). AND the gross hack in TCP Prague should be taken out again, and instead of trying to cure the symptoms, the root cause of the issue, dualQ's misdesign, needs to be fixed for good. The observed inequitable sharing between the two queues is caused by dualQ and needs to be fixed by dual queue. As proposed this is like re-arranging the deck chairs on the titanic.
> More to the point though, once L4S is released into the wild, nobody is going to care much for the text in the requirements section at all, as compliant behaviour is not checked by L4S's AQM. So assuming that changing this text will have any other effect, than simply making TCP Prague compliant post-hoc (by tailoring the RFC requirements to the little RTT-independence that was achievable in TCP Prague).
> In my line of work, something like this would be considered a bad faith effort close to cheating, but it seems that here at the IETF we operate under a considerably more relaxed set of standards?
>
> Regards
>         Sebastian
>
>
> 4.3. Prerequisite Congestion Response
> ...
> CURRENT:
> o A scalable congestion control MUST reduce or eliminate RTT bias
> over as wide a range of RTTs as possible, or at least over the
> typical range of RTTs that will interact in the intended
> deployment scenario (see Appendix A.1.5[https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-10#appendix-A.1.5] for rationale).
> PROPOSED:
> A scalable congestion control MUST eliminate RTT bias as much as possible in the range between the minimum likely RTT and typical RTTs expected
> in the intended deployment scenario  (see Appendix A.1.5 for rationale).
>
> RATIONALE:
> 1/ "eliminate as much as possible" is stronger than "reduce or eliminate".
> 2/ This requirement was motivated by 'do no harm to others' relative to existing standard (RFC5681 Reno) congestion control. So there is no need to mandate that an L4S implementer does no harm to themselves, which window-based congestion controls tend to do at higher RTT. Of course, this doesn't preclude implementers reducing or eliminating RTT bias for larger than typical RTTs, but it removes any requirement to do so.
>
> Cheers
>
>
> Bob
>

--
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/
 
From nobody Sat Oct 31 07:55:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7145F3A0C8F; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 07:55:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.548 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.548 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p3pgJkvI0BcV; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 07:55:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 424C53A0C8E; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 07:55:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1604156057; bh=m9LpsCNdzeKYZNriu3Z9ws5G9ip+6uIexvvkHdozotI=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=dpmR2+W/4lqOy6F2Jr+0fYifb9y+F30rhceglNs85eWwhxZquyju1VQnQQkT7jAl/ FiHazVZirZK+HQs/1kwUEq69ZZ66b46MzjP62THfLTNQa1z+5P6MXsIelvj598YKZA Ba7ET/x3rBCQYXg1E4Zmvx1sXpNjaH7xwV9fyVcI= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [134.76.241.253] ([134.76.241.253]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-gmx-bs36.server.lan [172.19.170.88]) (via HTTP); Sat, 31 Oct 2020 15:54:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Sebastian Moeller To: Bob Briscoe Cc: tsvwg IETF list , iccrg IRTF list , TCP Prague List , "De Schepper, Koen (Koen)" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2020 15:54:17 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <1b71a610-75ea-e1d4-e3ce-f0ae6a4c12f7@bobbriscoe.net> References: <1b71a610-75ea-e1d4-e3ce-f0ae6a4c12f7@bobbriscoe.net> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:BiejEYDwIkaRC8AbzJkA7vtY3m71C5RBW/UITmRdlU5x5vuw9mnkkRc0rMz5a635fw6v9 3uAcNJa/gaOCTaoQqV+VgXnQyaddMWObST5RuUkJWPBbzX3oYATRKWNBWqRVXBsiYqpDCU/cfC6Y id7YF0LksKnHmYF8AN6q+tgmOZ0Tun+UdPQ2wwLhotdUoW/SXk1h4uVYK4TD3qUANevrekhmsWcT 5CPLNAR5Tm+vKjzVGYorvq84tKl/zvpp9upuK6dDP1u+qKyXci6qYWr1d2fBkwRbSRtzm66A1B4A GE= X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:oiQVmQRfIFg=:iTdJammkkGD5nl1b2PGu6+ WfGepWY3vrBVuH6l8seMBT4NraPUfMdduMt5HhzFOpnKgT72B6/yvAbB7Z3Dk8MKoZ0H6DJs8 O31r+RpjFoTtsBMJOEZ+3lAJQyNhxAV22/C390keZEIGh0Z3SKohNr/xBh4XMD2bh7l0/CDu0 a4v4lsvdDJn2x79OerZi68yc0vyTpOTaL/hd0f79fiZDYYBJakLsH6mG7rF0oqVeiVF1QCeWS 3IxjiSLEo++02wug8HYGmyT6/cLfnlhMOcv6EPJwspI1Jk04lXHcOL4rzz5k6c02EuWj8zLwI CRACSljjhNB/gHgPaBeVWO4oNPLOpFSUFFbbqc4QAZtwBj4fqCWOL1mmnBxLHFWaYSwIyOkXV 8zDZfZS6LjyiIfLEvax0kzHQa7pRLqhGBzJTl6EVOd/+Si1al+e4xiMnFZgA6S0ZlHvCX1DMS o1qCNsoPbT6CQyC8okc5uXJeiGsiojHeRHHswa5JGXvmpaZIYJN7KVK2m80tXjW7TeCBxdim6 wv8997In5pdmAdoPibbetkNFtChdjw8MrqeS7H+ChXl7ZsLpAGN69gCPzeJTu6C4OQCRbE66y rsDZJPY2cxx/M= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tcpPrague] [tsvwg] ecn-l4s-id: Proposed Changed to Normative Classic ECN detection Text X-BeenThere: tcpprague@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "To coordinate implementation and standardisation of TCP Prague across platforms. TCP Prague will be an evolution of DCTCP designed to live alongside other TCP variants and derivatives." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2020 14:55:07 -0000
Dear Koen,
 
since Bob claims that he intends to correspond with my input, I am ad= dressing this response to you, See my comments in-line prefixed [SM].
 
Tl;dr: I appreciate that team L4S is finally admitting that it over-p= romised and under-delivered, I am less happy about the solution to this is= sue by simply reducing the requirments ot match the unsatisfactory state o= f the L4S implementation. After years of basically adveritizing on these r= equirements, watering those down at the last minute does not qualify as a = good faith effort in my book. It does confirm my negative view on team L4S= ' acumen and confirms my judgement that L4S "offers too little to= o late". Unfortunately I do not kid myself that this obvious fact is = going to stop the current intenet drafts gaining RFC status without any me= anigful changes. 
 
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 31. Oktob= er 2020 um 10:54 Uhr
Von: "Bob Briscoe" <ietf@bobbriscoe.net>
An: "tsvwg IETF list" <tsvwg@ietf.org>
Cc: "iccrg IRTF list" <iccrg@irtf.org>, "= TCP Prague List" <tcpPrague@ietf.org>, "De Schepper, Koen = (Koen)" <koen.de_schepper@nokia.com>
Betreff: [tsvwg] ecn-l4s-id: Proposed Changed to Normative Cla= ssic ECN detection Text
Folks,

The co-authors of ECN L4S ID have been reviewing the correctness of the no= rmative 'Prague' requirements.
 
        [SM] This seems less about corr= ectness and more about whether you managed ot hit those targets with your = implementation. Changing those requirements post-hoc might be justified, b= ut pleas do not frame that as a correctness isssue.
 

    See https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-10#section= -4.3
This is the second of 2 emails, about 2 of the requirements that we think = ought to be reworded a little.

If you agree with the rationale, but think the new wording still doesn'= ;t fully capture the requirement, pls suggest sthg better.
If you disagree with the rationale, pls discuss.
4.3.  Prerequisite Congestion Response
...
CURRENT:

   o  A scalable congestion control MUST react to ECN marking from a
      non-L4S but ECN-capable bottleneck in a way that will coexist with
      a TCP Reno congestion control [=
RFC5681] (see Appendix A.1.4 for
      rationale).

      Note that a scalable congestion control is not expected to chan=
ge
      to setting ECT(0) while it falls back to coexist with Reno.
 
PROPOSED:
   o  A scalable congestion control MUST implement monitori= ng in order
      to detect a likely non-L4S but ECN-capable = AQM at the bottleneck.
      On detection of a likely ECN-capable bottle= neck it SHOULD be
      capable (dependent on configuration) of aut= omatically adapting its
      congestion response to coexist with TCP Ren= o congestion controls
      [RFC5681] (see Appendix A.1.4 for rationale= and a referenced
      algorithm).
 
        [SM] This is a significantly watering dow= n, and it seems rather non-logical, IFF an implementation does not want/ne= ed to actually react to the result of a detection then performing that det= ection seems pure busy work. So make both of these MUSTs. Otherwise y= our requirments pretend to care about existing rfc3168 AQMs but in name on= ly. 
 


      Note that a scalable congestion control is = not expected to change
      to setting ECT(0) while it falls back to co= exist with Reno.

RATIONALE:
1/ The requirement as currently written says what an omniscient sender MUS= T do. So there's an implied requirement that a sender MUST be omniscie= nt, which is of course impossible.
2/ The requirement needs to be recast to require a sender to aim to b= e as knowledgeable as possible. Then, what it does as a result needs to ta= ke into account the a priori likelihood of there being a non-L4S bottlenec= k present.
3/ This includes the possibility that the operator of the host knows that = the network it serves has not deployed any single queue classic ECN AQM (e= .g. in a CDN case they're doing out of band testing, or they've as= ked the ISP). So we've included the possibility of fall-back being dis= abled by configuration.
4/ Nonetheless, as has been pointed out on the list, there is still a poss= ibility that there is a Classic ECN AQM somewhere else on the path (to con= tinue the CDN example, perhaps beyond the ISP in a home network). The '= ;MUST monitor' requirement still stands to ensure the operator doesn&#= 39;t miss these cases.
5/ Then, if the server operators have disabled fall-back for their deploym= ent, they can reconsider their policy or at least do more focused testing = if they are frequently detecting a single-queue Classic ECN AQM.
 
        [SM] And we are back to engineering/netwo= rk administration by wishful thinking... Again with a syszem (L4S) that ha= s not yet been proven to actually work over the existing internet with the= sole exception of short RTT/low hop count paths (CDN to end-user fast-lan= es copme to mind).


Items 3-5 are the "react via management" model that I've tal= ked about on the list, given the unfairness doesn't amount to starvati= on, and it is possible that the prevalence of the problem is very low.
 
        [SM] Given that you never offered your ow= n specific defintion of what starvation entails, I fail to see how that cl= aim can b tre in a verifiable fashion?


Finally, after the bullet list of requirements in section 4.3, (which are = prerequisites for setting the ECT1 codepoint), we propose to add the follo= wing requirement, as suggested on the tsvwg list:

      To participate in the L4S experiment, a sca= lable congestion control MUST
      be capable of being replaced by a Classic c= ongestion control (by
      application and by administrative control).= A Classic congestion control
      will not tag its packets with the ECT(1) co= depoint.
 
        [SM] +1; I would appreciate if we could a= dd a sentence like:
 
"In the unlikely case of the L4S experiment being declared a fai= lure, this replacement will need to be permanent, and the ECT(1) responsiv= e elements in AQM nodes also needs to be disabled".
 
I added the unlikely in spite of my own predictions, to account for t= he fact that the drafts are written on the hypothesis that L4S works as ad= vertized.... 
 
Best
        Sebastian
 

Cheers


Bob
 
--
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net=
/
From nobody Sat Oct 31 08:50:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tcpprague@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2EA33A0D01; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 08:50:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.548 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.548 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZzQHMjLLImTj; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 08:50:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 885193A0CF8; Sat, 31 Oct 2020 08:50:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1604159383; bh=oEcl0gNmiuZHCH/gW4SyPaIB1nu+J2Qw3IBqxlFHJIA=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=YRK8F3qVddsoHX2B0Iw/Ivxwby0intyAXW0sxVdivSA0/IynVi7tPG5hyeRL6CgaM nz9QUCG6M6ETTYJ+cSlLUMlG0B40mBm6iiAX+l2OXdr9VbFfH4XEqQMPHPSFjbrcZa MY3Oi/Nww34IWsfOVPQKXX9zqF30BCfBrBOQjJp8= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [134.76.241.253] ([134.76.241.253]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-gmx-bs36.server.lan [172.19.170.88]) (via HTTP); Sat, 31 Oct 2020 16:49:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Sebastian Moeller To: Bob Briscoe Cc: tsvwg IETF list , iccrg IRTF list , TCP Prague List , "De Schepper, Koen (Koen)" Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2020 16:49:43 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: References: X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:vFyqoXSTx7Pr2ufpn6guSVyvPI6Ajf8/V0a1YHjDoIHq5sRSEc7idaYR/sLMA54tHQNpJ PFE9hBaJzQiIvMj5wJ9zVc365SFioe8g5j33FABnFGd1t4AbZAz1O/ZF3zED4lDI1mj2fiH39gA4 4oLp041W2+BzDygEh+l+YYzir2F0jAxgvUVYtXi9QTgvTXWeajmMsKmwiADi3kirZw0dnSYN4CJ8 uWjBI093ofLYdJla1cWZKGaGygVQKidqPqvQWHMLHHX8yVlQYRPz4Bx7mMfeMakrN1lLcwT9vfsz yQ= X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:9ezIyntOlqU=:Nzie/gOS1kgerBtsGnr/qE NmczJD1wPmixszjfNPv5zrIZlZyqQzh5+ra0CipQGmAaxthhnke8JfODqv3C7Wru1SzRRCsVn fv14mlF98o+q6zoLyo8T49C0H8xMgHaAbncedHldzWwlRR9bWPfFIfkZWvaNiOICtAd1EDCUZ laFK1J6hqoRkhCHnVidvbeZh1IJk7pprBAqHwMJaVPEUFAZqh+12VUN7rvY8Evl+WeaMFlzoP i6jAQc429JuxRTTiH8uJ4TNDFH902zra9qrgFWhbLBNo+QjjYvCciI+sLLo4hvJdb4U9qj9MS qkpdvO0RVR+ugcELPhSkAIw9edX7+NMBHZq/EkKm7T1CzJm4S8AtWAbtg7gecBmrPa/fbhsvj VH9WtqFNQ4S5I0h2/OucHDRGWRLPohFoyKcHq8yHyI1LNz9H/h8DMNVq5ZlZW98r6dEePaegP uQ8vp5QavgnhaLY94Nrb1tTRgnYTr0TikR/E8C+urQ7n+Dl9RGfbb8rj469d9+H176QesYL6i 4UX7sbEC3MXjbmh+TBJhkNDx/EvWj+xP/R+cmMtM7zXIg05dcwJpkotRa6EominbRK/j61jCA Q0THzs5mWbVcY= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tcpPrague] [tsvwg] ecn-l4s-id: Proposed Changed to Normative RTT Bias Text X-BeenThere: tcpprague@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "To coordinate implementation and standardisation of TCP Prague across platforms. TCP Prague will be an evolution of DCTCP designed to live alongside other TCP variants and derivatives." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2020 15:50:34 -0000
Dear list,
 
please note that both of these "requirements" hedge against= the fact that RTT independence is almost impossible to achieve from the e= ndpoints (as it is a consequence of buffering at the bottleneck), original= ly bzy stating "as wide a range of RTTs as possible" (which give= n the phisical constraints in reality is equal to the empty set). Replacin= g that non-requirement with a differently worded version ("as much as= possible") does not change anything substantially, except for making= TCP Prague appear less of a failure. 
IMNHO this requirement for an L4S compatible transport, should be rep= laced with a requirement for an L4S compliant AQM (as it is limited queuei= ng at the bottleneck that causes most the issue) MUST at least perform as = well as a dumb FIFO, a mark which DualQ at short RTTs misses badly. But I = guess, a no regressions against the status quo requirement, will probably = not apply to L4S.
 
Best Regards
        Sebastian
 
 
Gesendet: Freitag, 30. Oktob= er 2020 um 19:42 Uhr
Von: "Bob Briscoe" <research@bobbriscoe.net> An: "tsvwg IETF list" <tsvwg@ietf.org>
Cc: "iccrg IRTF list" <iccrg@irtf.org>, "= TCP Prague List" <tcpPrague@ietf.org>, "De Schepper, Koen = (Koen)" <koen.de_schepper@nokia.com>
Betreff: [tsvwg] ecn-l4s-id: Proposed Changed to Normative RTT= Bias Text
Folks,

The co-authors of ECN L4S ID have been reviewing the correctness of the no= rmative 'Prague' requirements.
    See https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-10#section= -4.3
This is the first of 2 emails, about 2 of the requirements that we think o= ught to be reworded a little.

If you agree with the rationale, but think the new wording still doesn'= ;t capture the requirement well, pls suggest sthg better.
If you disagree with the rationale, pls discuss.
  
4.3.  Prerequisite Congestion Response
...
CURRENT:
   o  A scalable congestion control MUST reduce or eliminate RTT bias
      over as wide a range of RTTs as possible, or at least over the
      typical range of RTTs that will interact in the intended
      deployment scenario (see Appendix A.1.=
5 for rationale).

PROPOSED:
A scalable congestion control MUST eliminate RTT bias as much as possible = in the range between the minimum likely RTT and typical RTTs expected
in the intended deployment scenario  (see Appendix A.1.5 for rational= e).

RATIONALE:
1/ "eliminate as much as possible" is stronger than "reduce= or eliminate".
2/ This requirement was motivated by 'do no harm to others' relati= ve to existing standard (RFC5681 Reno) congestion control. So there is no = need to mandate that an L4S implementer does no harm to themselves, which = window-based congestion controls tend to do at higher RTT. Of course, this= doesn't preclude implementers reducing or eliminating RTT bias for la= rger than typical RTTs, but it removes any requirement to do so.

Cheers


Bob
  
--
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net=
/
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Sat, 31 Oct 2020 22:33:37 +0000 From: "De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" To: Sebastian Moeller , Bob Briscoe CC: tsvwg IETF list , iccrg IRTF list , TCP Prague List Thread-Topic: [tsvwg] ecn-l4s-id: Proposed Changed to Normative RTT Bias Text Thread-Index: AQHWr511LT0OjGkxwECNKgcYinSqc6myLqPA Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2020 22:33:37 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: nl-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gmx.de; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none; gmx.de; dmarc=none action=none header.from=nokia-bell-labs.com; x-originating-ip: [81.82.56.234] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 14eb1bed-58da-4822-8ae9-08d87ded02b4 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM0PR07MB6387: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: cF3M5tzvxsfiULIne3vbvEE7VCg0VHBjDZS/LeRnHrF7QV1pswfvZ/ae0zVH60HznvTDNpDUZciKqMW9poZTV7W/gHwyDHYJdZdiPbPAoqpK+BKFXLGOuotqke2WzUHWcK/Cq0qvPbMK1Q0wP0ekVAl3sX/ZOKNDZB9VrPMo71DioHguur98l0l5WnlUqiEN14UcQ4CuY/Lo/i7Wke/kKuK2hYWA57TYPEc4/ewC4q+U6MkShPWTSHe79i3Aowj9Aw+y2KepTU1AhNDhiu5sZOU7J4SP3og13ZNZpSXh7txpJBHF+cEHkpcgFls2Osc7DMn0YRqDxxQYOs5ytRpFOqr92cCo8KhyWjGokVm7li4LS4iNie45FNfOszRO5aLwPiM8O818gYU8wglUqXN9Qw== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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boundary="_000_AM0PR07MB61147735BA17F272253CE179B9120AM0PR07MB6114eurp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia-bell-labs.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM0PR07MB6114.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 14eb1bed-58da-4822-8ae9-08d87ded02b4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 31 Oct 2020 22:33:37.7593 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: RtXwM4lW3gXeJ9or/p7HmdrJU6fb78h0y/FIgq+ugR8ZZnbpkhonTx/JGpSKPq0IKg+m8Y04xwjOh5Mkhpsns/dnYupy/xhXaCaYPd72PeZ73pm9jUxQoJVgr+s6g/cy X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM0PR07MB6387 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tcpPrague] [tsvwg] ecn-l4s-id: Proposed Changed to Normative RTT Bias Text X-BeenThere: tcpprague@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "To coordinate implementation and standardisation of TCP Prague across platforms. TCP Prague will be an evolution of DCTCP designed to live alongside other TCP variants and derivatives." 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TCP Prague will be an evolution of DCTCP designed to live alongside other TCP variants and derivatives." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2020 23:42:07 -0000 --_000_AM0PR07MB6114BE26375DFD7B28D75841B9120AM0PR07MB6114eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgU2ViYXN0aWFuLA0KDQo+PiBJIGFwcHJlY2lhdGUgdGhhdCB0ZWFtIEw0UyBpcyBmaW5hbGx5 IGFkbWl0dGluZyB0aGF0IGl0IG92ZXItcHJvbWlzZWQgYW5kIHVuZGVyLWRlbGl2ZXJlZA0KDQpJ IHRoaW5rIHRoZSBwcm9ibGVtIGlzIHRoYXQgeW91IGludGVycHJldCDigJxyZXF1aXJlbWVudHPi gJ0gYXMg4oCccHJvbWlzZXPigJ0uIE1vc3QgcGVvcGxlIHVuZGVyc3RhbmQgdGhlIHBvdGVudGlh bCBvZiBMNFMgYW5kIGFjY2VwdCB0aGF0IHNwZWNpYWwgY2FyZSBuZWVkcyB0byBiZSB0YWtlbiB0 byBwcm90ZWN0IFNpbmdsZSBRIENsYXNzaWMgRU5DIGJvdHRsZW5lY2tzLiBUaGUgZHJhZnQgbmVl ZHMgdG8gcHV0IHRoZSBhdHRlbnRpb24gdG8gKHBvdGVudGlhbCkgcHJvYmxlbXMgdGhhdCBuZWVk IHRvIGJlIHNvbHZlZCBvciBhdm9pZGVkIGJ5IGludGVyZXN0aW5nIHBhcnRpZXMgdGhhdCB3YW50 IHRvIGRldmVsb3AgdGhlaXIgTDRTIFByYWd1ZS1jb21wbGlhbnQgQ0NzLiBTbyBpdCBpcyBpbiB0 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ESMTPA for ; 1 Nov 2020 01:07:59 -0000 To: Bob Briscoe , tsvwg IETF list Cc: iccrg IRTF list , TCP Prague List , "De Schepper, Koen (Koen)" References: <1b71a610-75ea-e1d4-e3ce-f0ae6a4c12f7@bobbriscoe.net> From: Christian Huitema Autocrypt: addr=huitema@huitema.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mDMEXtavGxYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdA1ou9A5MHTP9N3jfsWzlDZ+jPnQkusmc7sfLmWVz1Rmu0 J0NocmlzdGlhbiBIdWl0ZW1hIDxodWl0ZW1hQGh1aXRlbWEubmV0PoiWBBMWCAA+FiEEw3G4 Nwi4QEpAAXUUELAmqKBYtJQFAl7WrxsCGwMFCQlmAYAFCwkIBwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgEC F4AACgkQELAmqKBYtJQbMwD/ebj/qnSbthC/5kD5DxZ/Ip0CGJw5QBz/+fJp3R8iAlsBAMjK r2tmyWyJz0CUkVG24WaR5EAJDvgwDv8h22U6QVkAuDgEXtavGxIKKwYBBAGXVQEFAQEHQJoM 6MUAIqpoqdCIiACiEynZf7nlJg2Eu0pXIhbUGONdAwEIB4h+BBgWCAAmFiEEw3G4Nwi4QEpA AXUUELAmqKBYtJQFAl7WrxsCGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQELAmqKBYtJRm2wD7BzeK5gEXSmBcBf0j BYdSaJcXNzx4yPLbP4GnUMAyl2cBAJzcsR4RkwO4dCRqM9CHpVJCwHtbUDJaa55//E0kp+gH Message-ID: <28247e5f-5df3-1f75-50e6-b4a7e80d5ab0@huitema.net> Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2020 18:07:58 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1b71a610-75ea-e1d4-e3ce-f0ae6a4c12f7@bobbriscoe.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------D11F9CC1B9AE72132C2FC657" Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: 66.113.196.13 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.196.13/32 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.196.13/32@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Mvzo4OR0dZXEDF/gcnlw0QBfAh7lyK8tB8mq1asnDr6pSDasLI4SayDByyq9LIhVUZbR67CQ7/vm /hHDJU4RXkTNWdUk1Ol2OGx3IfrIJKywOmJyM1qr8uRnWBrbSAGD42+pgDSJdnVPeXOEK1m6uDbl kDZNUkuHiojIVh7uAUtF3PTDZxxNKLySeFujEVZ/UZq99/v+OWrp+SY7iSuea8EuNfnjQsRqWXYP fdewBkdPR9o014ICOs9pIWX8OtLJ7vsLUQAHXiJg5GjKIcUuXtbNhTNyx2YOvjKTJ3Ps/x2i3GSv wir0OshyEkOwfCYvxs5/T0oXYyKdvWabEYxQFC5Ano+acIK7aoZBBKN3kq8lTiPCf+PwTb/RKAdw 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Prague across platforms. TCP Prague will be an evolution of DCTCP designed to live alongside other TCP variants and derivatives." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2020 01:08:11 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D11F9CC1B9AE72132C2FC657 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am reading the L4S ECN-AQM proposal with an eye on responding to it in an implementation of QUIC, and I have a couple of questions regarding use of ECN marking with QUIC. The document does not mention QUIC, yet QUIC is already used in a large fraction of Internet traffic. QUIC does specify support for ECN, and QUIC acknowledgements may carry counts of each category of ECN marks received from the peer -- three counters for ECT(0), ECT(1) and CE. In theory, QUIC implementations could take advantage of L4S -- in fact, at least one implementation supports DC-TCP like CC already. Is there interest in specifying L4S for QUIC? My next question regards the interaction of the proposed L4S ECN-AQM with CC algorithms like BBR that attempt to discover the bottleneck packet rate for the connection, and use pacing to send packets at that rate. I observed that BBR is never mentioned in the draft, yet BBR is used in a sizeable part of Internet traffic. Do we have data on how a non-L4S aware implementation of BBR interacts with the proposed L4S AQM? My last question regards potential use of ECT(1) marking. Most current implementations set ECT(0), but setting ECT(1) instead is trivial. This should elicit an L4S compatible response in L4S-AQM, and the BBR implementation might be modified to use the signals as part of the bottleneck bandwidth tracking. But there is a small issue there. With BBR, QUIC packets are supposedly paced at just under the bottleneck rate, except during "probe" periods in which they probe for 1 RTT at a slightly higher rate. The L4S AGM might degenerate in a form of ON-OFF control -- no feedback at all most of the time, then a bunch of CE marks if the probe rate exceeds the bottleneck bandwidth. As anyone experimented with that? -- Christian Huitema On 10/31/2020 2:54 AM, Bob Briscoe wrote: > Folks, > > The co-authors of ECN L4S ID have been reviewing the correctness of > the normative 'Prague' requirements. > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 See > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-10#section-4.3 > This is the second of 2 emails, about 2 of the requirements that we > think ought to be reworded a little. > > If you agree with the rationale, but think the new wording still > doesn't fully capture the requirement, pls suggest sthg better. > If you disagree with the rationale, pls discuss. > > 4.3. Prerequisite Congestion Response > ... > CURRENT: > > o A scalable congestion control MUST react to ECN marking from a > non-L4S but ECN-capable bottleneck in a way that will coexist wit= h > a TCP Reno congestion control [RFC5681 ] (see Appendix A.1.4 for > rationale). > > =C2=A0Note that a scalable congestion control is not expected to c= hange > to setting ECT(0) while it falls back to coexist with Reno. > =C2=A0 > PROPOSED: > =C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 A scalable congestion control MUST implement monit= oring in order > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 to detect a likely non-L4S but ECN-capab= le AQM at the bottleneck. > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 On detection of a likely ECN-capable bot= tleneck it SHOULD be > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 capable (dependent on configuration) of = automatically adapting its > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 congestion response to coexist with TCP = Reno congestion controls > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 [RFC5681] (see Appendix A.1.4 for ration= ale and a referenced > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 algorithm). > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Note that a scalable congestion control = is not expected to change > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 to setting ECT(0) while it falls back to= coexist with Reno. > > RATIONALE: > 1/ The requirement as currently written says what an omniscient sender > MUST do. So there's an implied requirement that a sender MUST be > omniscient, which is of course impossible. > 2/ The requirement needs to be recast to require a sender to aim to be > as knowledgeable as possible. Then, what it does as a result needs to > take into account the a priori likelihood of there being a non-L4S > bottleneck present. > 3/ This includes the possibility that the operator of the host knows > that the network it serves has not deployed any single queue classic > ECN AQM (e.g. in a CDN case they're doing out of band testing, or > they've asked the ISP). So we've included the possibility of fall-back > being disabled by configuration. > 4/ Nonetheless, as has been pointed out on the list, there is still a > possibility that there is a Classic ECN AQM somewhere else on the path > (to continue the CDN example, perhaps beyond the ISP in a home > network). The 'MUST monitor' requirement still stands to ensure the > operator doesn't miss these cases. > 5/ Then, if the server operators have disabled fall-back for their > deployment, they can reconsider their policy or at least do more > focused testing if they are frequently detecting a single-queue > Classic ECN AQM. > > Items 3-5 are the "react via management" model that I've talked about > on the list, given the unfairness doesn't amount to starvation, and it > is possible that the prevalence of the problem is very low. > > > Finally, after the bullet list of requirements in section 4.3, (which > are prerequisites for setting the ECT1 codepoint), we propose to add > the following requirement, as suggested on the tsvwg list: > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 To participate in the L4S experiment, a = scalable congestion > control MUST > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 be capable of being replaced by a Classi= c congestion control (by > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 application and by administrative contro= l). A Classic congestion > control > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 will not tag its packets with the ECT(1)= codepoint. > > Cheers > > > Bob > > > --=20 > ________________________________________________________________ > Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ > > _______________________________________________ > tcpPrague mailing list > tcpPrague@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpprague --------------D11F9CC1B9AE72132C2FC657 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I am reading the L4S ECN-AQM proposal with an eye on responding to it in an implementation of QUIC, and I have a couple of questions regarding use of ECN marking with QUIC.

The document does not mention QUIC, yet QUIC is already used in a large fraction of Internet traffic. QUIC does specify support for ECN, and QUIC acknowledgements may carry counts of each category of ECN marks received from the peer -- three counters for ECT(0), ECT(1) and CE. In theory, QUIC implementations could take advantage of L4S -- in fact, at least one implementation supports DC-TCP like CC already. Is there interest in specifying L4S for QUIC?

My next question regards the interaction of the proposed L4S ECN-AQM with CC algorithms like BBR that attempt to discover the bottleneck packet rate for the connection, and use pacing to send packets at that rate. I observed that BBR is never mentioned in the draft, yet BBR is used in a sizeable part of Internet traffic. Do we have data on how a non-L4S aware implementation of BBR interacts with the proposed L4S AQM?

My last question regards potential use of ECT(1) marking. Most current implementations set ECT(0), but setting ECT(1) instead is trivial. This should elicit an L4S compatible response in L4S-AQM, and the BBR implementation might be modified to use the signals as part of the bottleneck bandwidth tracking. But there is a small issue there. With BBR, QUIC packets are supposedly paced at just under the bottleneck rate, except during "probe" periods in which they probe for 1 RTT at a slightly higher rate. The L4S AGM might degenerate in a form of ON-OFF control -- no feedback at all most of the time, then a bunch of CE marks if the probe rate exceeds the bottleneck bandwidth. As anyone experimented with that?

-- Christian Huitema


On 10/31/2020 2:54 AM, Bob Briscoe wrote:
Folks,

The co-authors of ECN L4S ID have been reviewing the correctness of the normative 'Prague' requirements.
    See https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-10#section-4.3
This is the second of 2 emails, about 2 of the requirements that we think ought to be reworded a little.

If you agree with the rationale, but think the new wording still doesn't fully capture the requirement, pls suggest sthg better.
If you disagree with the rationale, pls discuss.

4.3.  Prerequisite Congestion Response
...
CURRENT:

   o  A scalable congestion control MUST react to ECN marking from a
      non-L4S but ECN-capable bottleneck in a way that will coexist with
      a TCP Reno congestion control [RFC5681] (see Appendix A.1.4 for
      rationale).

      Note that a scalable congestion control is not expected to change
      to setting ECT(0) while it falls back to coexist with Reno.
 
PROPOSED:
   o  A scalable congestion control MUST implement monitoring in order
      to detect a likely non-L4S but ECN-capable AQM at the bottleneck.
      On detection of a likely ECN-capable bottleneck it SHOULD be
      capable (dependent on configuration) of automatically adapting its
      congestion response to coexist with TCP Reno congestion controls
      [RFC5681] (see Appendix A.1.4 for rationale and a referenced
      algorithm).

      Note that a scalable congestion control is not expected to change
      to setting ECT(0) while it falls back to coexist with Reno.

RATIONALE:
1/ The requirement as currently written says what an omniscient sender MUST do. So there's an implied requirement that a sender MUST be omniscient, which is of course impossible.
2/ The requirement needs to be recast to require a sender to aim to be as knowledgeable as possible. Then, what it does as a result needs to take into account the a priori likelihood of there being a non-L4S bottleneck present.
3/ This includes the possibility that the operator of the host knows that the network it serves has not deployed any single queue classic ECN AQM (e.g. in a CDN case they're doing out of band testing, or they've asked the ISP). So we've included the possibility of fall-back being disabled by configuration.
4/ Nonetheless, as has been pointed out on the list, there is still a possibility that there is a Classic ECN AQM somewhere else on the path (to continue the CDN example, perhaps beyond the ISP in a home network). The 'MUST monitor' requirement still stands to ensure the operator doesn't miss these cases.
5/ Then, if the server operators have disabled fall-back for their deployment, they can reconsider their policy or at least do more focused testing if they are frequently detecting a single-queue Classic ECN AQM.

Items 3-5 are the "react via management" model that I've talked about on the list, given the unfairness doesn't amount to starvation, and it is possible that the prevalence of the problem is very low.


Finally, after the bullet list of requirements in section 4.3, (which are prerequisites for setting the ECT1 codepoint), we propose to add the following requirement, as suggested on the tsvwg list:

      To participate in the L4S experiment, a scalable congestion control MUST
      be capable of being replaced by a Classic congestion control (by
      application and by administrative control). A Classic congestion control
      will not tag its packets with the ECT(1) codepoint.

Cheers


Bob


-- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/

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