From mcr@sandelman.ca Tue Oct 1 11:29:47 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A848B11E821A; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 11:29:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 57BEcf2yb0vy; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 11:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3::184]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB5CA11E8211; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 11:29:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ED4E20168; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 15:39:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id C99A463B18; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 14:29:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8CF2636C7; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 14:29:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: ietf@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <12321.1380629642@sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Subject: [Tools-discuss] independant submissions that update standards track, and datatracker X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2013 18:29:47 -0000 --=-=-= This morning I had reason to re-read parts of RFC3777, and anything that updated it. I find the datatracker WG interface to really be useful, and so I visited http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/ first. I guess I could have instead gone to: http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3777 but frankly, I'm often bad with numbers, especially when they repeat... (3777? 3737? 3733?) While http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/ lists RFC3777, and in that line, it lists the things that update it, it doesn't actually list the other documents. Thinking this was an error, I asked, and Cindy kindly explained: >http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/ lists the documents that were >published by the NOMCOM Working Group. The NOMCOM Working Group was >open from 2002-2004, and only produced one RFC, which is RFC 3777. > >The RFCs that update 3777 were all produced by individuals (that is, >outside of the NOMCOM Working Group), and so aren't listed individually >on the NOMCOM Working Group documents page. I wonder about this as a policy. Seeing the titles of those documents would have helped me find what I wanted quickly (RFC5680 it was)... While I think that individual submissions that are not the result of consensus do not belong on a WG page. But, if the document was the result of consensus, but did not occur in a WG because the WG had closed, I think that perhaps it should appear there anyway. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQCVAwUBUksUhIqHRg3pndX9AQLoRgP+Nmzc4ZVIhUPKYe8ju3FMmRYmrbpFPZoV xADZUznz1zNvliLQ+8BdFPJda3OloLtM+vOZ1JRvLsj0L7eRx7sHynKnaI3QG9jS otOkNpnwAtVnd6/8sbpsuPYGotCB82C6XISJZO0VGFBTtFnUTZmuDG5Ae2fZP97H HyFhJQdumNM= =uhW+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From adrian@olddog.co.uk Tue Oct 1 11:36:08 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B582611E821E; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 11:36:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.532 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.532 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.067, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hzQSj9yb5LKU; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 11:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp5.iomartmail.com (asmtp5.iomartmail.com [62.128.201.176]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FF8E21E805F; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 11:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asmtp5.iomartmail.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by asmtp5.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r91IZtPR023160; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 19:35:55 +0100 Received: from 950129200 (dsl-sp-81-140-15-32.in-addr.broadbandscope.com [81.140.15.32]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp5.iomartmail.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r91IZsxJ023154 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 1 Oct 2013 19:35:55 +0100 From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Michael Richardson'" References: <12321.1380629642@sandelman.ca> <11884.1380652164@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <11884.1380652164@sandelman.ca> Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 19:35:54 +0100 Message-ID: <001701cebed5$104b87e0$30e297a0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQJAvZSZWOmuV4jo97NkkYR/9subcAJpQiu3AhNrUvMCdkRQs5jElyPA Content-Language: en-gb Cc: ietf@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] independant submissions that update standards track, and datatracker X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: adrian@olddog.co.uk List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2013 18:36:09 -0000 Not to detract from your point, Michael, but http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search/?name=nomcom&rfcs=on&sort= is pretty good. Adrian > -----Original Message----- > From: ietf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Michael Richardson > Sent: 01 October 2013 19:29 > To: ietf@ietf.org; tools-discuss@ietf.org > Subject: independant submissions that update standards track, and datatracker > > > This morning I had reason to re-read parts of RFC3777, and anything > that updated it. I find the datatracker WG interface to really be > useful, and so I visited http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/ > first. I guess I could have instead gone to: > http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3777 > > but frankly, I'm often bad with numbers, especially when they repeat... > (3777? 3737? 3733?) > > While http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/ lists RFC3777, and > in that line, it lists the things that update it, it doesn't actually list > the other documents. Thinking this was an error, I asked, and Cindy kindly > explained: > > >http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/ lists the documents that were > >published by the NOMCOM Working Group. The NOMCOM Working Group was > >open from 2002-2004, and only produced one RFC, which is RFC 3777. > > > >The RFCs that update 3777 were all produced by individuals (that is, > >outside of the NOMCOM Working Group), and so aren't listed individually > >on the NOMCOM Working Group documents page. > > I wonder about this as a policy. > > Seeing the titles of those documents would have helped me find what I wanted > quickly (RFC5680 it was)... > > While I think that individual submissions that are not the result of > consensus do not belong on a WG page. But, if the document was the result of > consensus, but did not occur in a WG because the WG had closed, I think that > perhaps it should appear there anyway. > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Tue Oct 1 12:14:30 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC2A411E8211; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 12:14:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.52 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.52 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.079, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id evPAzbCha6IU; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 12:14:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x229.google.com (mail-pa0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::229]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDB3C11E8229; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 12:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-f41.google.com with SMTP id bj1so7934066pad.0 for ; Tue, 01 Oct 2013 12:14:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=UNhgdZgf4CC03TwBl+aWqWAeRyBX1F5Vf+RkCC6M1w0=; b=oKO/dBpBn9AU/YJQLBxkcDIKHZ9JsvUhKwUqnwOIpyqn2LilylLJK1yEqdqSRlCCqF VM3blF0wtLgfrGuWSUmZ1ZjPAaMc7ZFEMTH/gGYQbh28Ptli9EH1FV5oEjHiWuJFLABS QXBb2EazY2BX3A/apg+tTUktoMqEF9GSH98HxLF9PPGV5BQai3ZKzBqT3hC994t4PbVe UMp78YWipfe7L/ZFbkIDJk3YWxZnIZStHp9UdoEoxNrq7y/5f0qb+JWVCsDhj37cPn/p b1iWSx7Lf7+DC5ILREkqBHT8NLUNqz+oTJ/lg5OwEtQx6HPkb0VuKYwZ62/mQb1SfM7c /AVw== X-Received: by 10.67.14.231 with SMTP id fj7mr35623868pad.115.1380654868440; Tue, 01 Oct 2013 12:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] (180.194.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.194.180]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id pu5sm9986629pac.21.1969.12.31.16.00.00 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 01 Oct 2013 12:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <524B1F12.90103@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2013 08:14:26 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: adrian@olddog.co.uk References: <12321.1380629642@sandelman.ca> <11884.1380652164@sandelman.ca> <001701cebed5$104b87e0$30e297a0$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <001701cebed5$104b87e0$30e297a0$@olddog.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: 'Michael Richardson' , ietf@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] independant submissions that update standards track, and datatracker X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2013 19:14:31 -0000 The place to go is definitely not the page for a closed WG. How can that be expected to track things that happened after the WG closed? Since it's a BCP, you get the lot at http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/bcp10 or http://www.rfc-editor.org/bcp/bcp10.txt. In this particular case, you can also find it at http://www.ietf.org/about/process-docs.html#anchor5 Regards Brian On 02/10/2013 07:35, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Not to detract from your point, Michael, but > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search/?name=nomcom&rfcs=on&sort= is pretty > good. > > Adrian > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ietf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> Michael Richardson >> Sent: 01 October 2013 19:29 >> To: ietf@ietf.org; tools-discuss@ietf.org >> Subject: independant submissions that update standards track, and datatracker >> >> >> This morning I had reason to re-read parts of RFC3777, and anything >> that updated it. I find the datatracker WG interface to really be >> useful, and so I visited http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/ >> first. I guess I could have instead gone to: >> http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3777 >> >> but frankly, I'm often bad with numbers, especially when they repeat... >> (3777? 3737? 3733?) >> >> While http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/ lists RFC3777, and >> in that line, it lists the things that update it, it doesn't actually list >> the other documents. Thinking this was an error, I asked, and Cindy kindly >> explained: >> >>> http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/ lists the documents that were >>> published by the NOMCOM Working Group. The NOMCOM Working Group was >>> open from 2002-2004, and only produced one RFC, which is RFC 3777. >>> >>> The RFCs that update 3777 were all produced by individuals (that is, >>> outside of the NOMCOM Working Group), and so aren't listed individually >>> on the NOMCOM Working Group documents page. >> I wonder about this as a policy. >> >> Seeing the titles of those documents would have helped me find what I wanted >> quickly (RFC5680 it was)... >> >> While I think that individual submissions that are not the result of >> consensus do not belong on a WG page. But, if the document was the result of >> consensus, but did not occur in a WG because the WG had closed, I think that >> perhaps it should appear there anyway. >> >> -- >> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works >> > > > From mcr@sandelman.ca Tue Oct 1 13:06:30 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08FB321E826C; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 13:06:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[none] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AxSr2taHlthB; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 13:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3::184]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5396E21E808C; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 13:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (desk.marajade.sandelman.ca [209.87.252.247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5332020168; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 17:15:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 1210963B18; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 16:05:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD3BF636C7; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 16:05:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Brian E Carpenter In-Reply-To: <524B1F12.90103@gmail.com> References: <12321.1380629642@sandelman.ca> <11884.1380652164@sandelman.ca> <001701cebed5$104b87e0$30e297a0$@olddog.co.uk> <524B1F12.90103@gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Cc: adrian@olddog.co.uk, ietf@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] independant submissions that update standards track, and datatracker X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2013 20:06:30 -0000 Brian E Carpenter wrote: > The place to go is definitely not the page for a closed WG. How can that > be expected to track things that happened after the WG closed? > Since it's a BCP, you get the lot at http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/bcp10 > or http://www.rfc-editor.org/bcp/bcp10.txt. I think that you are right. We need to find ways to talk about BCP10 more frequently, rather than 3777. -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ From mcr@sandelman.ca Tue Oct 1 13:10:05 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B96011E8211; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 13:10:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[none] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lirPw1LSq4LW; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 13:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3::184]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E5BF11E822B; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 13:09:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0301220168; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 17:19:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id EB19463B18; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 16:09:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAB12636C7; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 16:09:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Brian E Carpenter In-Reply-To: <524B1F12.90103@gmail.com> References: <12321.1380629642@sandelman.ca> <11884.1380652164@sandelman.ca> <001701cebed5$104b87e0$30e297a0$@olddog.co.uk> <524B1F12.90103@gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Cc: adrian@olddog.co.uk, ietf@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] independant submissions that update standards track, and datatracker X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2013 20:10:05 -0000 I note that neither: http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/ nor: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search/?name=nomcom&rfcs=on&sort= told me that 3777 was also BCP10 now. (Even if 3777 wasn't BCP10 anymore, I think it would be useful for the datatracker to tell me that it was part of BCP10, because I'll bet that 90% of the time, I really want the latest info) Although: http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3777 did point at BCP10, but just said "BCP10". I think that perhaps on that page, if it said, "BCP10 - IETF Nomination Process", that the link would stand out better. From ynir@checkpoint.com Tue Oct 1 12:56:50 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9233121E805F; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 12:56:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pejRLSZZNJLf; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 12:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.checkpoint.com (smtp.checkpoint.com [194.29.34.68]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56B3F21E80C5; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 12:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from IL-EX10.ad.checkpoint.com ([194.29.34.147]) by smtp.checkpoint.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r91JuX4K019528; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 22:56:33 +0300 X-CheckPoint: {524B28F1-B-1B221DC2-1FFFF} Received: from DAG-EX10.ad.checkpoint.com ([169.254.3.30]) by IL-EX10.ad.checkpoint.com ([169.254.2.92]) with mapi id 14.02.0347.000; Tue, 1 Oct 2013 22:56:33 +0300 From: Yoav Nir To: Michael Richardson Thread-Topic: independant submissions that update standards track, and datatracker Thread-Index: AQHOvtRDzyxGS5cit0y+9EzWDqaODpngEMQA Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 19:56:32 +0000 Message-ID: References: <12321.1380629642@sandelman.ca> <11884.1380652164@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <11884.1380652164@sandelman.ca> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.31.20.231] x-kse-antivirus-interceptor-info: protection disabled Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <2156BF953F713E4C8316641CBEFB38B5@ad.checkpoint.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 01 Oct 2013 14:21:53 -0700 Cc: "" , "" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] independant submissions that update standards track, and datatracker X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2013 19:56:50 -0000 On Oct 1, 2013, at 9:29 PM, Michael Richardson wrot= e: >=20 > This morning I had reason to re-read parts of RFC3777, and anything > that updated it. I find the datatracker WG interface to really be > useful, and so I visited http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/ > first. I guess I could have instead gone to: > http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3777 >=20 > but frankly, I'm often bad with numbers, especially when they repeat... > (3777? 3737? 3733?) >=20 > While http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/ lists RFC3777, and > in that line, it lists the things that update it, it doesn't actually lis= t > the other documents. Thinking this was an error, I asked, and Cindy kind= ly > explained: >=20 >> http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/ lists the documents that were >> published by the NOMCOM Working Group. The NOMCOM Working Group was >> open from 2002-2004, and only produced one RFC, which is RFC 3777. >>=20 >> The RFCs that update 3777 were all produced by individuals (that is, >> outside of the NOMCOM Working Group), and so aren't listed individually >> on the NOMCOM Working Group documents page. >=20 > I wonder about this as a policy. >=20 > Seeing the titles of those documents would have helped me find what I wan= ted > quickly (RFC5680 it was)=85 Like everything else in the IETF, there's a tools version for this as well:= http://tools.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/ You get the same list, but you also get the titles of those RFCs if you mou= se over the links. From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com Wed Oct 2 05:24:44 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 722CE11E8273; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 05:24:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fWuQeqr9sJ23; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 05:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x22e.google.com (mail-pa0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74D8121F99F8; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 05:24:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-f46.google.com with SMTP id fa1so955841pad.19 for ; Wed, 02 Oct 2013 05:24:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=IJNMTW+5Jq5tQVYj14hEscCH7RwPXhYKngY5LqhNn4M=; b=YilsjUbjvatIgtlaOlmsNwK3+Y7Xfvp0xAOc40xt5aKhYt5j4zUgrYC2O4bGZCCdKg 9XvUWHCLHSWBWiwtJyHT7hCvhntuKrddZgNaI1lcP9czaxSOG7Y/vSmo4ldBLW3asxje Nrce+gptK3dO18/LmUWW7aIjLCXSQgix1CGp9enbUiy43G1XQvcVXhBj/i4X9RM/Hqty /PnB+2gmzyQWcGg44DkXO2VyNuS5gz0EmmDS6w9jXFJAcf/qDlQpUNWlDv9hKL7CfRMw safoy7qXZmjqSahGfZa9W1TC5ypJ9V0S+oIUiFLltaksZs6XCSagQkCowE195KEV+bi7 BwFw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.215.38 with SMTP id of6mr2263063pbc.14.1380716313079; Wed, 02 Oct 2013 05:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.69.8.5 with HTTP; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 05:18:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <11884.1380652164@sandelman.ca> References: <12321.1380629642@sandelman.ca> <11884.1380652164@sandelman.ca> Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2013 13:18:32 +0100 Message-ID: From: Abdussalam Baryun To: Michael Richardson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1134663860758104e7c111ea Cc: ietf , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] independant submissions that update standards track, and datatracker X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2013 12:24:44 -0000 --001a1134663860758104e7c111ea Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Michael, I agree that it should appear in related WG's field or area. I see in IETF we have WGs documents list but not areas' documents list, so the individual document may not be found or discovered. I think any document of IETF should be listed in its field area or related charter, but it seems like the culture of IETF focusing on groups work not on the IETF documents. For example, when I first joined MANET WG I thought that RFC3753 is related because it is IETF, but in one discussion one participant did not accept to use that document even though it was related. Fuethermore, some WGs don't comment on related documents to their WG, which I think this should change in future IETF culture (e.g. there was one individual doc that was requested by AD to comment on by the WG but no respond). Therefore, IMHO, the IETF is divided by groups with different point of views/documents and they force their WG Adopted-Work to list documents (not all related to Group-Charters), but it seems that managemnet does not see that there is a division in knowledge or in outputs of the IETF, which a new comer may see it clearly. I recommend to focus/list documents related to Charter, not related to WG adoptions, because all IETF document are examined by IESG. AB On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > This morning I had reason to re-read parts of RFC3777, and anything > that updated it. I find the datatracker WG interface to really be > useful, and so I visited http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/ > first. I guess I could have instead gone to: > http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3777 > > but frankly, I'm often bad with numbers, especially when they repeat... > (3777? 3737? 3733?) > > While http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/ lists RFC3777, and > in that line, it lists the things that update it, it doesn't actually list > the other documents. Thinking this was an error, I asked, and Cindy kindly > explained: > > >http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/ lists the documents that were > >published by the NOMCOM Working Group. The NOMCOM Working Group was > >open from 2002-2004, and only produced one RFC, which is RFC 3777. > > > >The RFCs that update 3777 were all produced by individuals (that is, > >outside of the NOMCOM Working Group), and so aren't listed individually > >on the NOMCOM Working Group documents page. > > I wonder about this as a policy. > > Seeing the titles of those documents would have helped me find what I > wanted > quickly (RFC5680 it was)... > > While I think that individual submissions that are not the result of > consensus do not belong on a WG page. But, if the document was the result > of > consensus, but did not occur in a WG because the WG had closed, I think > that > perhaps it should appear there anyway. > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > > > > _______________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > --001a1134663860758104e7c111ea Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Michael,
=A0
I agree that it s= hould appear in related WG's field or area. I=A0see in IETF we have WGs= documents list but not areas' documents list, so the individual docume= nt may not be found or discovered. I think any document of IETF should be l= isted in its field area or related charter, but it seems like the culture o= f IETF focusing on groups work not on the IETF documents. For example, when= I first joined MANET WG I thought that RFC3753 is related because it is IE= TF, but in one discussion one participant did not accept to use that docume= nt even though it was related. Fuethermore, some WGs don't comment on r= elated documents to their WG, which I think this should change in future IE= TF culture (e.g. there was one individual doc that was requested by AD to c= omment on=A0by the WG but no=A0respond).
=A0
=A0Therefore, IMHO, the IETF is divided by groups with d= ifferent point of views/documents and they force their WG Adopted-Work to l= ist documents (not all related to Group-Charters), but it seems that manage= mnet does not see that there is a division in knowledge or in outputs of th= e IETF, which a new comer may see it clearly. I recommend to focus/list doc= uments related to Charter, not related to WG adoptions, because all IETF do= cument=A0are examined by IESG.
=A0
AB


On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:

This morning I had reason to re-read parts of RFC3777, and anything
that updated it. =A0I find the datatracker WG interface to really be
useful, and so I visited http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/
first. =A0I guess I could have instead gone to:
=A0 =A0http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3777

but frankly, I'm often bad with numbers, especially when they repeat...=
(3777? 3737? 3733?)

While = http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/ lists RFC3777, and
in that line, it lists the things that update it, it doesn't actually l= ist
the other documents. =A0Thinking this was an error, I asked, and Cindy kind= ly
explained:

>ht= tp://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/ lists the documents that were
>published by the NOMCOM Working Group. =A0The NOMCOM Working Group was<= br> >open from 2002-2004, and only produced one RFC, which is RFC 3777.
>
>The RFCs that update 3777 were all produced by individuals (that is, >outside of the NOMCOM Working Group), and so aren't listed individu= ally
>on the NOMCOM Working Group documents page.

I wonder about this as a policy.

Seeing the titles of those documents would have helped me find what I wante= d
quickly (RFC5680 it was)...

While I think that individual submissions that are not the result of
consensus do not belong on a WG page. =A0But, if the document was the resul= t of
consensus, but did not occur in a WG because the WG had closed, I think tha= t
perhaps it should appear there anyway.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@= sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works



_______________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list
Tools-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss


--001a1134663860758104e7c111ea-- From jdrake@juniper.net Wed Oct 2 05:53:16 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6FC711E8104; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 05:53:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jAdWB2d85BuT; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 05:53:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from va3outboundpool.messaging.microsoft.com (va3ehsobe002.messaging.microsoft.com [216.32.180.12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EE1011E80EA; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 05:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail6-va3-R.bigfish.com (10.7.14.252) by VA3EHSOBE010.bigfish.com (10.7.40.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.1.225.22; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 12:52:30 +0000 Received: from mail6-va3 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail6-va3-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CB6B2400B3; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 12:52:30 +0000 (UTC) X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:157.56.240.101; KIP:(null); UIP:(null); IPV:NLI; H:BL2PRD0510HT005.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; RD:none; EFVD:NLI X-SpamScore: -22 X-BigFish: VPS-22(zz98dI9371Ic85fh1432I1418Izz1f42h208ch1ee6h1de0h1fdah2073h1202h1e76h1d1ah1d2ah1fc6hzz1d7338h1de098h1033IL17326ah18c673h1de097h186068h18de19h8275bh8275dhz2fh2a8h839hd24hf0ah1288h12a5h12bdh137ah1441h1504h1537h153bh162dh1631h1758h18e1h1946h19b5h19ceh1ad9h1b0ah1bceh1d07h1d0ch1d2eh1d3fh1de9h1dfeh1dffh1e1dh1fe8h1ff5h20f0h9a9j1155h) Received-SPF: pass (mail6-va3: domain of juniper.net designates 157.56.240.101 as permitted sender) client-ip=157.56.240.101; envelope-from=jdrake@juniper.net; helo=BL2PRD0510HT005.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ; .outlook.com ; X-Forefront-Antispam-Report-Untrusted: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(24454002)(51444003)(199002)(189002)(51704005)(377454003)(77982001)(59766001)(81342001)(66066001)(31966008)(56776001)(54316002)(19300405004)(50986001)(63696002)(15975445006)(76482001)(76796001)(15202345003)(76786001)(76576001)(83322001)(19580405001)(47736001)(49866001)(74706001)(46102001)(56816003)(74876001)(77096001)(4396001)(53806001)(19580395003)(47446002)(47976001)(16236675002)(74662001)(69226001)(19609705001)(74502001)(80976001)(81686001)(74366001)(81542001)(81816001)(74316001)(83072001)(80022001)(65816001)(33646001)(54356001)(51856001)(79102001)(24736002); DIR:OUT; SFP:; SCL:1; SRVR:BY2PR05MB142; H:BY2PR05MB142.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; CLIP:66.129.232.2; FPR:; RD:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; Received: from mail6-va3 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail6-va3 (MessageSwitch) id 1380718348694840_13930; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 12:52:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from VA3EHSMHS014.bigfish.com (unknown [10.7.14.250]) by mail6-va3.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0F1D3E0050; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 12:52:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from BL2PRD0510HT005.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (157.56.240.101) by VA3EHSMHS014.bigfish.com (10.7.99.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.16.227.3; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 12:52:28 +0000 Received: from BY2PR05MB142.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.242.39.144) by BL2PRD0510HT005.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.255.100.40) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.16.359.1; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 12:52:27 +0000 Received: from BY2PR05MB142.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.242.39.144) by BY2PR05MB142.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.242.39.144) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.775.9; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 12:52:25 +0000 Received: from BY2PR05MB142.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.12.177]) by BY2PR05MB142.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([169.254.12.177]) with mapi id 15.00.0775.005; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 12:52:25 +0000 From: John E Drake To: Abdussalam Baryun , Michael Richardson Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] independant submissions that update standards track, and datatracker Thread-Index: AQHOv2psSZZkh56kJ0Wc1Z9sttwWV5nhXSeA Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2013 12:52:25 +0000 Message-ID: <634130acbbfc4f4389e39172cfcc8fad@BY2PR05MB142.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> References: <12321.1380629642@sandelman.ca> <11884.1380652164@sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [66.129.232.2] x-forefront-prvs: 0987ACA2E2 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_634130acbbfc4f4389e39172cfcc8fadBY2PR05MB142namprd05pro_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-FOPE-CONNECTOR: Id%0$Dn%*$RO%0$TLS%0$FQDN%$TlsDn% X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 02 Oct 2013 06:15:05 -0700 Cc: ietf , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] independant submissions that update standards track, and datatracker X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2013 12:53:17 -0000 --_000_634130acbbfc4f4389e39172cfcc8fadBY2PR05MB142namprd05pro_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Irrepressible Yours Irrespectively, John From: ietf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Abd= ussalam Baryun Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 5:19 AM To: Michael Richardson Cc: ietf; tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] independant submissions that update standards = track, and datatracker Hi Michael, I agree that it should appear in related WG's field or area. I see in IETF = we have WGs documents list but not areas' documents list, so the individual= document may not be found or discovered. I think any document of IETF shou= ld be listed in its field area or related charter, but it seems like the cu= lture of IETF focusing on groups work not on the IETF documents. For exampl= e, when I first joined MANET WG I thought that RFC3753 is related because i= t is IETF, but in one discussion one participant did not accept to use that= document even though it was related. Fuethermore, some WGs don't comment o= n related documents to their WG, which I think this should change in future= IETF culture (e.g. there was one individual doc that was requested by AD t= o comment on by the WG but no respond). Therefore, IMHO, the IETF is divided by groups with different point of vie= ws/documents and they force their WG Adopted-Work to list documents (not al= l related to Group-Charters), but it seems that managemnet does not see tha= t there is a division in knowledge or in outputs of the IETF, which a new c= omer may see it clearly. I recommend to focus/list documents related to Cha= rter, not related to WG adoptions, because all IETF document are examined b= y IESG. AB On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Michael Richardson > wrote: This morning I had reason to re-read parts of RFC3777, and anything that updated it. I find the datatracker WG interface to really be useful, and so I visited http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/ first. I guess I could have instead gone to: http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3777 but frankly, I'm often bad with numbers, especially when they repeat... (3777? 3737? 3733?) While http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/ lists RFC3777, and in that line, it lists the things that update it, it doesn't actually list the other documents. Thinking this was an error, I asked, and Cindy kindly explained: >http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/ lists the documents that were >published by the NOMCOM Working Group. The NOMCOM Working Group was >open from 2002-2004, and only produced one RFC, which is RFC 3777. > >The RFCs that update 3777 were all produced by individuals (that is, >outside of the NOMCOM Working Group), and so aren't listed individually >on the NOMCOM Working Group documents page. I wonder about this as a policy. Seeing the titles of those documents would have helped me find what I wante= d quickly (RFC5680 it was)... While I think that individual submissions that are not the result of consensus do not belong on a WG page. But, if the document was the result = of consensus, but did not occur in a WG because the WG had closed, I think tha= t perhaps it should appear there anyway. -- Michael Richardson >,= Sandelman Software Works _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --_000_634130acbbfc4f4389e39172cfcc8fadBY2PR05MB142namprd05pro_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Irrepressible<= /span>

 <= /p>

Yours Irrespectively,

 <= /p>

John

 <= /p>

From: ietf-b= ounces@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Abdussalam Baryun
Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 5:19 AM
To: Michael Richardson
Cc: ietf; tools-discuss@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] independant submissions that update sta= ndards track, and datatracker

 

Hi Michael,

 

I agree that it should appear in related WG's field = or area. I see in IETF we have WGs documents list but not areas' docum= ents list, so the individual document may not be found or discovered. I thi= nk any document of IETF should be listed in its field area or related charter, but it seems like the culture of IET= F focusing on groups work not on the IETF documents. For example, when I fi= rst joined MANET WG I thought that RFC3753 is related because it is IETF, b= ut in one discussion one participant did not accept to use that document even though it was related. Fuethermor= e, some WGs don't comment on related documents to their WG, which I think t= his should change in future IETF culture (e.g. there was one individual doc= that was requested by AD to comment on by the WG but no respond).

 

 Therefore, IMHO, the IETF is divided by groups= with different point of views/documents and they force their WG Adopted-Wo= rk to list documents (not all related to Group-Charters), but it seems that= managemnet does not see that there is a division in knowledge or in outputs of the IETF, which a new comer may s= ee it clearly. I recommend to focus/list documents related to Charter, not = related to WG adoptions, because all IETF document are examined by IES= G.

 

AB

 

On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Michael Richardson &= lt;mcr+i= etf@sandelman.ca> wrote:


This morning I had reason to re-read parts of RFC3777, and anything
that updated it.  I find the datatracker WG interface to really be
useful, and so I visited http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/
first.  I guess I could have instead gone to:
   http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3777

but frankly, I'm often bad with numbers, especially when they repeat...
(3777? 3737? 3733?)

While = http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/ lists RFC3777, and
in that line, it lists the things that update it, it doesn't actually list<= br> the other documents.  Thinking this was an error, I asked, and Cindy k= indly
explained:

>ht= tp://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/ lists the documents that were
>published by the NOMCOM Working Group.  The NOMCOM Working Group w= as
>open from 2002-2004, and only produced one RFC, which is RFC 3777.
>
>The RFCs that update 3777 were all produced by individuals (that is, >outside of the NOMCOM Working Group), and so aren't listed individually=
>on the NOMCOM Working Group documents page.

I wonder about this as a policy.

Seeing the titles of those documents would have helped me find what I wante= d
quickly (RFC5680 it was)...

While I think that individual submissions that are not the result of
consensus do not belong on a WG page.  But, if the document was the re= sult of
consensus, but did not occur in a WG because the WG had closed, I think tha= t
perhaps it should appear there anyway.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+I= ETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works



_______________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list
Tools-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

 

--_000_634130acbbfc4f4389e39172cfcc8fadBY2PR05MB142namprd05pro_-- From l.wood@surrey.ac.uk Wed Oct 2 06:26:16 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 537D721E8054; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 06:26:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UvMDbO-s9lZ9; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 06:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.bemta14.messagelabs.com (mail1.bemta14.messagelabs.com [193.109.254.117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4950311E80C5; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 06:24:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [193.109.255.147:50513] by server-13.bemta-14.messagelabs.com id 72/88-01215-67E1C425; Wed, 02 Oct 2013 13:24:06 +0000 X-Env-Sender: l.wood@surrey.ac.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-5.tower-72.messagelabs.com!1380720245!12289070!1 X-Originating-IP: [131.227.200.39] X-StarScan-Received: X-StarScan-Version: 6.9.12; banners=-,-,- X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 10814 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2013 13:24:05 -0000 Received: from exht012p.surrey.ac.uk (HELO EXHT012P.surrey.ac.uk) (131.227.200.39) by server-5.tower-72.messagelabs.com with AES128-SHA encrypted SMTP; 2 Oct 2013 13:24:05 -0000 Received: from EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk ([169.254.1.148]) by EXHT012P.surrey.ac.uk ([131.227.200.39]) with mapi; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 14:24:05 +0100 From: To: , Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2013 14:21:58 +0100 Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] independant submissions that update standards track, and datatracker Thread-Index: Ac6/aoTs7ZbCeLe9SleAqHgn34q1bwAB9pbv Message-ID: <290E20B455C66743BE178C5C84F12408374274D584@EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk> References: <12321.1380629642@sandelman.ca> <11884.1380652164@sandelman.ca>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, en-GB Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, en-GB Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 02 Oct 2013 06:39:20 -0700 Cc: ietf@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] independant submissions that update standards track, and datatracker X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2013 13:26:16 -0000 "because all IETF document are examined by IESG" No they're not. See RFC4844. Lloyd Wood http://sat-net.com/L.Wood/ ________________________________________ From: ietf-bounces@ietf.org [ietf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Abdussalam= Baryun [abdussalambaryun@gmail.com] Sent: 02 October 2013 13:18 To: Michael Richardson Cc: ietf; tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] independant submissions that update standards = track, and datatracker Hi Michael, I agree that it should appear in related WG's field or area. I see in IETF = we have WGs documents list but not areas' documents list, so the individual= document may not be found or discovered. I think any document of IETF shou= ld be listed in its field area or related charter, but it seems like the cu= lture of IETF focusing on groups work not on the IETF documents. For exampl= e, when I first joined MANET WG I thought that RFC3753 is related because i= t is IETF, but in one discussion one participant did not accept to use that= document even though it was related. Fuethermore, some WGs don't comment o= n related documents to their WG, which I think this should change in future= IETF culture (e.g. there was one individual doc that was requested by AD t= o comment on by the WG but no respond). Therefore, IMHO, the IETF is divided by groups with different point of vie= ws/documents and they force their WG Adopted-Work to list documents (not al= l related to Group-Charters), but it seems that managemnet does not see tha= t there is a division in knowledge or in outputs of the IETF, which a new c= omer may see it clearly. I recommend to focus/list documents related to Cha= rter, not related to WG adoptions, because all IETF document are examined b= y IESG. AB On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Michael Richardson > wrote: This morning I had reason to re-read parts of RFC3777, and anything that updated it. I find the datatracker WG interface to really be useful, and so I visited http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/ first. I guess I could have instead gone to: http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3777 but frankly, I'm often bad with numbers, especially when they repeat... (3777? 3737? 3733?) While http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/ lists RFC3777, and in that line, it lists the things that update it, it doesn't actually list the other documents. Thinking this was an error, I asked, and Cindy kindly explained: >http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/nomcom/ lists the documents that were >published by the NOMCOM Working Group. The NOMCOM Working Group was >open from 2002-2004, and only produced one RFC, which is RFC 3777. > >The RFCs that update 3777 were all produced by individuals (that is, >outside of the NOMCOM Working Group), and so aren't listed individually >on the NOMCOM Working Group documents page. I wonder about this as a policy. Seeing the titles of those documents would have helped me find what I wante= d quickly (RFC5680 it was)... While I think that individual submissions that are not the result of consensus do not belong on a WG page. But, if the document was the result = of consensus, but did not occur in a WG because the WG had closed, I think tha= t perhaps it should appear there anyway. -- Michael Richardson >,= Sandelman Software Works _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Wed Oct 2 07:12:18 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3744121F9DC7; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 07:12:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.328 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.328 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.650, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id emlP+s+fcLiV; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 07:12:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x232.google.com (mail-vc0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c03::232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2B3E21F85BB; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 07:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f178.google.com with SMTP id lh4so506482vcb.37 for ; Wed, 02 Oct 2013 07:10:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=JUtePYxQDCTYU9n3RLBTHez73cl65+DYNfCghvileUU=; b=wV0NnEBxcwNgabSpFs00QXUxGwhruwJRMfijo9c6ZijJJgNvLHLoWi5qpHAijSJxGA JIInZVbYmphfg38mJahOp05ygfNbuSzWTTmkxMieWl5k7/MpL6SgJJx/0uxZraeDPSOL yeDAozm3+OKGOpq+iMaouwfGeOxvL3y8W6NgGfsC7hWjRqQjvw/w70XOK+SZTqhJDbcG D2CBecf2I5XGtglQgteTxE1wJsMDB1/e4+4Q17lSAP94ST7U9P3qKezEEjbGKHpyCSL3 H+Y7wYif9b4FP/1OfQMvjH5LLZhKPKLNJDOJB4lDsveHGPlB4CGqLZXVT2MirIdkZRI3 46RA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.221.64.17 with SMTP id xg17mr2214423vcb.5.1380723047958; Wed, 02 Oct 2013 07:10:47 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Received: by 10.58.215.16 with HTTP; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 07:10:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <290E20B455C66743BE178C5C84F12408374274D584@EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk> References: <12321.1380629642@sandelman.ca> <11884.1380652164@sandelman.ca> <290E20B455C66743BE178C5C84F12408374274D584@EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2013 10:10:47 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 6vBOSvFr0TAK3apv4kyREzDy2T8 Message-ID: From: Barry Leiba To: l.wood@surrey.ac.uk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: IETF discussion list , Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] independant submissions that update standards track, and datatracker X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2013 14:12:18 -0000 > "because all IETF document are examined by IESG" > > No they're not. See RFC4844. Lloyd, it *is* true that all documents in the IETF stream are reviewed and approved by the IESG. I would take "IETF documents" to refer to documents in the IETF stream. (In fact, documents in the IRTF and Independent streams are also "examined" by the IESG, but only for conflict review, according to RFC 5742. The only RFCs that the IESG doesn't look at in any formal way are those in the IAB stream.) Barry, Applications AD From sob@sobco.com Wed Oct 2 07:16:07 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39F0E21F8F07; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 07:16:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y0LcNG8dys2d; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 07:15:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sobco.sobco.com (unknown [136.248.127.164]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9903B21F85BB; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 07:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sobco.sobco.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1DE13063E9; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 10:15:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at sobco.com Received: from sobco.sobco.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (sobco.sobco.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V8oqI-17AQmc; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 10:15:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.12.133.208] (wrls-67-134-207-237.wrls.harvard.edu [67.134.207.237]) by sobco.sobco.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C58933063DA; Wed, 2 Oct 2013 10:15:18 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Scott O Bradner In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2013 10:15:19 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <6037477B-9C2A-4F6C-B268-01D52D23B6C2@sobco.com> References: <12321.1380629642@sandelman.ca> <11884.1380652164@sandelman.ca> <290E20B455C66743BE178C5C84F12408374274D584@EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk> To: Barry Leiba X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Cc: IETF discussion list , l.wood@surrey.ac.uk, Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] independant submissions that update standards track, and datatracker X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2013 14:16:07 -0000 1 April RFCs excepted Scott On Oct 2, 2013, at 10:10 AM, Barry Leiba wrote: >> "because all IETF document are examined by IESG" >> >> No they're not. See RFC4844. > > Lloyd, it *is* true that all documents in the IETF stream are reviewed > and approved by the IESG. I would take "IETF documents" to refer to > documents in the IETF stream. > > (In fact, documents in the IRTF and Independent streams are also > "examined" by the IESG, but only for conflict review, according to RFC > 5742. The only RFCs that the IESG doesn't look at in any formal way > are those in the IAB stream.) > > Barry, Applications AD From spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com Thu Oct 3 14:41:22 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54AEB21F856A; Thu, 3 Oct 2013 14:41:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pefpBjUzzTyB; Thu, 3 Oct 2013 14:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yh0-x22f.google.com (mail-yh0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c01::22f]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C42511E80D1; Thu, 3 Oct 2013 14:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yh0-f47.google.com with SMTP id l109so865627yhq.34 for ; Thu, 03 Oct 2013 14:39:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=HoKHPMjSpeW8QGtqJFA7k/t9NYb5HKh0ahUurcQ8n9Y=; b=pDZvSUFIp6DrfZnQbXr044Ics9LDyyn2VnN11lUJlBS8+PeBuos9n52SNZsplrxGkK Vmb2Hl8Rczpk38eRsoZ+YvdBTNQLLbsgooQfmtQArLJ2jLAp23VEx4AJ0+uwvnEhcrtc SecAUZI1esMZdJGKqWvVS4VLih52RbUjPQHkryxfzInqguPkjyI6u2b6nzzxPyesoxkY AlSDewY9X9wHVwtuRWN4DVK3AY9dcQxHhiPKisbo2lhSybNQeU98OSLsfXKGLhpGa1J5 r0P8mqLut4PD8uAYD4EISawZI5/xxu2qrXqNj0ACXH0ec5SxuenUfxwc1zTqbX5ozfva AAOg== X-Received: by 10.236.44.42 with SMTP id m30mr8850299yhb.7.1380836388794; Thu, 03 Oct 2013 14:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.23] (70-2-31-243.pools.spcsdns.net. [70.2.31.243]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id g25sm13993793yhg.6.1969.12.31.16.00.00 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 03 Oct 2013 14:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <524DE3CD.8010303@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2013 16:38:21 -0500 From: Spencer Dawkins User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130801 Thunderbird/17.0.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Scott O Bradner References: <12321.1380629642@sandelman.ca> <11884.1380652164@sandelman.ca> <290E20B455C66743BE178C5C84F12408374274D584@EXMB01CMS.surrey.ac.uk> <6037477B-9C2A-4F6C-B268-01D52D23B6C2@sobco.com> In-Reply-To: <6037477B-9C2A-4F6C-B268-01D52D23B6C2@sobco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Barry Leiba , IETF discussion list , Tools Team Discussion Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] independant submissions that update standards track, and datatracker X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2013 21:41:22 -0000 On 10/2/2013 9:15 AM, Scott O Bradner wrote: > 1 April RFCs excepted Ah. I'm sitting here banging my head on a desk thinking "I knew that" ... thanks, Scott! Spencer From rjsparks@nostrum.com Mon Oct 7 08:13:51 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0602F11E80E4; Mon, 7 Oct 2013 08:13:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7OkTpcSN7YpH; Mon, 7 Oct 2013 08:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shaman.nostrum.com (nostrum-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:267::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DC5611E80ED; Mon, 7 Oct 2013 08:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unnumerable.local (pool-173-57-89-224.dllstx.fios.verizon.net [173.57.89.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by shaman.nostrum.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r97FDZCX054297 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 7 Oct 2013 10:13:35 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) Message-ID: <5252CF9F.1090709@nostrum.com> Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2013 10:13:35 -0500 From: Robert Sparks User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130801 Thunderbird/17.0.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: codesprints@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received-SPF: pass (shaman.nostrum.com: 173.57.89.224 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) Subject: [Tools-discuss] Vancouver codesprint signup X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2013 15:13:51 -0000 If you're going to be joining us at the Vancouver codesprint, please take a moment to sign up now at http://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/wiki/IETF88SprintSignUp. RjS From simon@josefsson.org Thu Oct 10 01:42:05 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99FEF21F8EC3 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 01:42:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CDYVt72LyHx3 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 01:42:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from duva.sjd.se (duva.sjd.se [IPv6:2001:9b0:1:1702::100]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8BEF21F9A40 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 01:42:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from latte.josefsson.org (static-213-115-179-130.sme.bredbandsbolaget.se [213.115.179.130]) (authenticated bits=0) by duva.sjd.se (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id r9A8fwHr027589 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 10:42:00 +0200 X-Hashcash: 1:22:131010:tools-discuss@ietf.org::aK0nNJJc33FOQdsO:W2mY From: Simon Josefsson To: tools-discuss@ietf.org OpenPGP: id=B565716F; url=http://josefsson.org/key.txt Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 10:41:58 +0200 Message-ID: <87zjqh8qll.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.130008 (Ma Gnus v0.8) Emacs/24.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97.8 at duva.sjd.se X-Virus-Status: Clean Subject: [Tools-discuss] missing obsolete tag on http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5102 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 08:42:05 -0000 RFC 5102 has been obsoleted by RFC 7012, yet there is no indication of this on the following page. http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5102 Thanks, /Simon From henrik@levkowetz.com Thu Oct 10 04:33:43 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9F1321E80FB for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 04:33:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fbFrwtVBVUKx for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 04:33:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grenache.tools.ietf.org (grenache.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2a01:3f0:1:2::30]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F2A821F9CB5 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 04:33:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [2a01:3f0:1:0:f587:3d98:1178:34a2] (port=50602 helo=tannat.netnod.se) by grenache.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_CAMELLIA_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VUEUv-0000ry-Ne; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 13:33:42 +0200 Message-ID: <52569095.6070306@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 13:33:41 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130911 Thunderbird/17.0.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Simon Josefsson References: <87zjqh8qll.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> In-Reply-To: <87zjqh8qll.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 2a01:3f0:1:0:f587:3d98:1178:34a2 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: simon@josefsson.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org, henrik-sent@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on grenache.tools.ietf.org) Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] missing obsolete tag on http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5102 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 11:33:44 -0000 Hi Simon, On 2013-10-10 10:41 Simon Josefsson said: > RFC 5102 has been obsoleted by RFC 7012, yet there is no indication of > this on the following page. > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5102 Thanks for the alert. Fixed! Please report problems with tools.ietf.org to webmaster@tools.ietf.org, not on the discussion list. Best regards, Henrik From simon@josefsson.org Thu Oct 10 05:06:24 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFF4121F9360 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 05:06:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KQa0ViD8swQt for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 05:06:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from duva.sjd.se (duva.sjd.se [IPv6:2001:9b0:1:1702::100]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23D3811E8155 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 05:05:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from latte.josefsson.org (static-213-115-179-130.sme.bredbandsbolaget.se [213.115.179.130]) (authenticated bits=0) by duva.sjd.se (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id r9AC5t57000512 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 10 Oct 2013 14:05:56 +0200 Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 14:05:47 +0200 From: Simon Josefsson To: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <20131010140547.7d2dc86b@latte.josefsson.org> In-Reply-To: <52569095.6070306@levkowetz.com> References: <87zjqh8qll.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> <52569095.6070306@levkowetz.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.8.1 (GTK+ 2.24.10; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97.8 at duva.sjd.se X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] missing obsolete tag on http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5102 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 12:06:24 -0000 You wrote: > Hi Simon, > > On 2013-10-10 10:41 Simon Josefsson said: > > RFC 5102 has been obsoleted by RFC 7012, yet there is no indication > > of this on the following page. > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5102 > > Thanks for the alert. Fixed! Please report problems with > tools.ietf.org to webmaster@tools.ietf.org, not on the discussion > list. Thanks! Sorry about that, will try to remember to next time. /Simon From derhoermi@gmx.net Thu Oct 10 05:53:54 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDCB021F9F4F for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 05:53:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.79 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.79 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.151, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oltpZeur5kqS for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 05:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA20321F9FF6 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 05:53:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netb.Speedport_W_700V ([91.35.13.136]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx101) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 0LraSn-1Vvw2s2qPV-013JAc for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 14:53:35 +0200 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann To: Henrik Levkowetz Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 14:53:37 +0200 Message-ID: <3e8d59tmuo4ja249m21858aippc1skcqoi@hive.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> References: <87zjqh8qll.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> <52569095.6070306@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: <52569095.6070306@levkowetz.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:QHoLvHBQXM7vpfW3sO8Qj7HiURfOctyXOEyJ+GK55HioNeDYXyO 3Fz96BWNm6U8Z3fXf6KblRRkBKz3cJxs3AcLPjNaqVzymssdF8Cjjmg+AsyEzxtTx5mpdXU mwhqQt8JCoCjodTcXLkFtGYYHkoROUqJy5TxuMi43NQFyGRjHav82MM6BAjxgXTqIp3igS6 Nk/KkXQCoojbwJx5OVMjA== Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-discuss] Using tools-discuss for problem reports (was: Re: missing obsolete tag on http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5102) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 12:53:54 -0000 * Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >Thanks for the alert. Fixed! Please report problems with tools.ietf.org >to webmaster@tools.ietf.org, not on the discussion list. I generally do not like sending mails into black holes where you can't tell if you got past the anti-spam fences, cannot reference the message later, can't point others to any response, can't search past reports of the same or similar problems and reactions to them, ... I think using this list at current volume is quite fine, but if not, then there ought to be a dedicated publically archived mailing list for them. -- Björn Höhrmann · mailto:bjoern@hoehrmann.de · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de Am Badedeich 7 · Telefon: +49(0)160/4415681 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de 25899 Dagebüll · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.websitedev.de/ From henrik@levkowetz.com Thu Oct 10 06:19:08 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29B3E21F9A3D for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 06:19:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V+E+gVGcH5zX for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 06:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grenache.tools.ietf.org (grenache.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2a01:3f0:1:2::30]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C94521E8114 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 06:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [2a01:3f0:1:0:f587:3d98:1178:34a2] (port=51429 helo=tannat.netnod.se) by grenache.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_CAMELLIA_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VUG8N-0002HR-Hn; Thu, 10 Oct 2013 15:18:31 +0200 Message-ID: <5256A927.6090103@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 15:18:31 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130911 Thunderbird/17.0.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bjoern Hoehrmann References: <87zjqh8qll.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> <52569095.6070306@levkowetz.com> <3e8d59tmuo4ja249m21858aippc1skcqoi@hive.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> In-Reply-To: <3e8d59tmuo4ja249m21858aippc1skcqoi@hive.bjoern.hoehrmann.de> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 2a01:3f0:1:0:f587:3d98:1178:34a2 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: derhoermi@gmx.net, tools-discuss@ietf.org, henrik-sent@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on grenache.tools.ietf.org) Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Using tools-discuss for problem reports X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2013 13:19:08 -0000 Hi Björn, On 2013-10-10 14:53 Bjoern Hoehrmann said: > * Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >> Thanks for the alert. Fixed! Please report problems with tools.ietf.org >> to webmaster@tools.ietf.org, not on the discussion list. > > I generally do not like sending mails into black holes where you can't > tell if you got past the anti-spam fences, cannot reference the message > later, can't point others to any response, can't search past reports of > the same or similar problems and reactions to them, ... I think using > this list at current volume is quite fine, but if not, then there ought > to be a dedicated publically archived mailing list for them. Using webmaster@tools.ietf.org makes the reports end up in the right place; sending to this list *doesn't* -- if I'm travelling or on vacation, they will sit un-handled. Please use the webmaster@tools.ietf.org address. If you absolutely won't try to make life easier for me that way, I have set up an issue tracker here that you can use: http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues Of course, if you want to *discuss* a bug in the tools.ietf.org tools or web pages, this is the right place. But if you just want something fixed, this list is not it. Henrik From lars@netapp.com Fri Oct 11 01:30:57 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D189A21E8165 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2013 01:30:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.257 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.257 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.342, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G8t5QzZUCIsg for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2013 01:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx12.netapp.com (mx12.netapp.com [216.240.18.77]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19DC021E80DF for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2013 01:30:30 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.90,1078,1371106800"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="98977208" Received: from vmwexceht02-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.76.240]) by mx12-out.netapp.com with ESMTP; 11 Oct 2013 01:30:29 -0700 Received: from SACEXCMBX01-PRD.hq.netapp.com ([169.254.2.51]) by vmwexceht02-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.76.240]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Fri, 11 Oct 2013 01:30:29 -0700 From: "Eggert, Lars" To: " Discussion" Thread-Topic: agenda calendar issue Thread-Index: AQHOxlwirnC2gmPISkSgKoYH7K9PEA== Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 08:30:28 +0000 Message-ID: <5B52BB3A-C629-49FA-9228-A2947EC9F7F9@netapp.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.106.53.51] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0DAC9608-8BAF-4601-8BA7-B7D7F040C587"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Tools-discuss] agenda calendar issue X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 08:30:57 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0DAC9608-8BAF-4601-8BA7-B7D7F040C587 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, going to https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/88/agenda.html and = selecting a bunch of sessions for the week view populates it wit a bunch = of sessions that say "Free Slot", but nothing else? Lars --Apple-Mail=_0DAC9608-8BAF-4601-8BA7-B7D7F040C587 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQCVAwUBUle3IdZcnpRveo1xAQJvoAP+KGG71eDGcuYayDxeTVTzghl8p8OuyzGu xSyvudCum/8tReU2AzDvPbOZ7aHsQT4Kiwx69AgGtc+1hthpbZuzzhv6stRxdieo Hxt5PPQFiFWPvpXiVgwaT6+d3cwIA2+E/XdujxsJZArcYXs3tsySuiBjn5s6CEl7 us/pJVlEaUo= =P9B4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_0DAC9608-8BAF-4601-8BA7-B7D7F040C587-- From henrik@levkowetz.com Fri Oct 11 03:34:40 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBEB721E811F for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2013 03:34:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1T0Cge3G2P8P for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2013 03:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grenache.tools.ietf.org (grenache.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2a01:3f0:1:2::30]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7B3021F9D2A for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2013 03:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [2a01:3f0:1:0:7871:3b3a:79c3:90ec] (port=57586 helo=tannat.netnod.se) by grenache.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_CAMELLIA_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VUa3E-0002WD-DR; Fri, 11 Oct 2013 12:34:32 +0200 Message-ID: <5257D430.5030308@levkowetz.com> Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 12:34:24 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130911 Thunderbird/17.0.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Eggert, Lars" References: <5B52BB3A-C629-49FA-9228-A2947EC9F7F9@netapp.com> In-Reply-To: <5B52BB3A-C629-49FA-9228-A2947EC9F7F9@netapp.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="VDDsCpOB8hjqBE5dsQFdrSgvJiuDR1guH" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 2a01:3f0:1:0:7871:3b3a:79c3:90ec X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: lars@netapp.com, tools-discuss@ietf.org, henrik-sent@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on grenache.tools.ietf.org) Cc: " Discussion" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] agenda calendar issue X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 10:34:40 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --VDDsCpOB8hjqBE5dsQFdrSgvJiuDR1guH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Lars, On 2013-10-11 10:30 Eggert, Lars said: > Hi, >=20 > going to https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/88/agenda.html and select= ing a bunch of sessions for the week view populates it wit a bunch of ses= sions that say "Free Slot", but nothing else? Yes, the html agenda view unfortunately has a lot of issues after the lat= est release. The code we received from a contractor was much less tested and= in worse shape than we believed, even after our own testing. We're working = on fixing it, and hope to have a better version in place during the weekend.= Sorry for the problems. Best regards, Henrik --VDDsCpOB8hjqBE5dsQFdrSgvJiuDR1guH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJSV9Q3AAoJEE6bV0uPuxcaV8wP+gJO3gA2SU9CYH4NkpeMZ5BU tOdMhVMu99195hWeZ7kjJ03y0JXuVlsRFOWhj+arfHTUGFk5f6ejqiyRNsxtaT5c XgC/fAihH+f4nowo+EgfloqPKJMKsmbsku34mXVdqBxLxgCRgZTDg9oEHYT4bc1i QRlUzJW/W9LX7kGZhPzLqM7GFLP5zXZep3pNuBK1gJyiiMIP+ohEhBDHTOdlKMx/ EZ2a+G+5s+vo9TThy3eu+HNchWBtHJ31DXQMhU0DpUd4p1DWw/NkwugmU4piftXU 5WlmxXyMZWE7fRKgNBRlk51mlxyVVdh7Kk7UcnXB+pmcN0PL55V+qB/goQetIP48 arFZIRJqh7r76QR44aV29KDQxlD0ORoZFhd7TQXzNztZ1q50yUgEAZR1cbFUbot+ 8SuBqVIa+fGY2j4js6Ism+RR9OFfoRHI1I4tB4dKG1MJXWpLmBZUnF3URHy9S5vR +sE1sQHP3ssQedWSix/kj8xlUuthkh5cE1WMWw6Jzr53/ZPbzZHQTRUm+e7ZLY7T HLcGVD3AlgsINlts/EjUAdW8oC2JoI2z3oRzhtzqI8nAzt3xAOn/+4ZyoXjJj2ms Or0UMw6gLv9/Sohe/9LxEo9HIM+WjfInBLMhF5SDCStIlkwPF7dYf1t8PaXezDOt 4bU6H2LSzUvV8F/dyQON =7AwG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --VDDsCpOB8hjqBE5dsQFdrSgvJiuDR1guH-- From lars@netapp.com Fri Oct 11 04:02:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73E5721E813A for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2013 04:02:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.611, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jP3c3OfqIcr0 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2013 04:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx11.netapp.com (mx11.netapp.com [216.240.18.76]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16F9321E81B2 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2013 04:02:12 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.90,1079,1371106800"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="58724310" Received: from vmwexceht02-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.76.240]) by mx11-out.netapp.com with ESMTP; 11 Oct 2013 04:02:11 -0700 Received: from SACEXCMBX01-PRD.hq.netapp.com ([169.254.2.51]) by vmwexceht02-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.76.240]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Fri, 11 Oct 2013 04:02:11 -0700 From: "Eggert, Lars" To: Henrik Levkowetz Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] agenda calendar issue Thread-Index: AQHOxlwirnC2gmPISkSgKoYH7K9PEJnvw4gAgAAHwgA= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 11:02:11 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5B52BB3A-C629-49FA-9228-A2947EC9F7F9@netapp.com> <5257D430.5030308@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: <5257D430.5030308@levkowetz.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.106.53.51] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A4D0159A-418E-4B22-A3BB-70A7168C873D"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: " Discussion" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] agenda calendar issue X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2013 11:02:19 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A4D0159A-418E-4B22-A3BB-70A7168C873D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Thanks! No urgency, but good to know it's being worked on. On Oct 11, 2013, at 12:34, Henrik Levkowetz = wrote: > Hi Lars, >=20 > On 2013-10-11 10:30 Eggert, Lars said: >> Hi, >>=20 >> going to https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/88/agenda.html and = selecting a bunch of sessions for the week view populates it wit a bunch = of sessions that say "Free Slot", but nothing else? >=20 > Yes, the html agenda view unfortunately has a lot of issues after the = latest > release. The code we received from a contractor was much less tested = and in > worse shape than we believed, even after our own testing. We're = working on > fixing it, and hope to have a better version in place during the = weekend. >=20 > Sorry for the problems. >=20 >=20 > Best regards, >=20 > Henrik >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_A4D0159A-418E-4B22-A3BB-70A7168C873D Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQCVAwUBUlfastZcnpRveo1xAQKXWAQAs6hHeC5hc+tG7SoIXkOcLlZGzbDZAvkG pB5IGNkzm+S1nqCjJ6Bn+jHjVj7v22EKmxqHbOTGafPjhVOmhnpD7BEk6cuNX2PW eio7WlWl/dj9XNGKl9DsuY/zK8m4wazkQ0qxXUg+hbZ6IvCTm62EIRcLFTGqybiY zZOziLz3elU= =mhEG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_A4D0159A-418E-4B22-A3BB-70A7168C873D-- From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Sat Oct 12 08:57:10 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 437F921E8141 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 08:57:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ax+pqJLzjHhq for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 08:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B38521E8180 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 08:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-0-66-41.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id r9CFv6FQ011780 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 08:57:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-0-66-41.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.41] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] From: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <61783D62-1266-422E-9010-15DCB1182F15@vpnc.org> Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 08:57:05 -0700 To: "tools-discuss@ietf.org Discussion" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Subject: [Tools-discuss] Can't assign a new document shepherd X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 15:57:10 -0000 Greetings again. I'm trying to assign a shepherd for a document in my = WG, following the directions at = . = I go to the page for the draft, click on the pencil-like item at right = of " Document shepherd: No shepherd assigned", and type in the person's name = and email address. The tool tries to search for that name-address pair = and doesn't find it, but when I hit Enter or click Submit, it doesn't = take the new name. Not being able to assign someone as shepherd just because they are not = already in some database seems like a bug. Is that correct? Or am I = missing some UI bit that would allow me to assign someone not in the = database? --Paul Hoffman= From barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Sat Oct 12 11:48:04 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC63421E81B8 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 11:48:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.989 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.989 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.012, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OxHQQPDUSJGV for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 11:48:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x22f.google.com (mail-la0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::22f]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB81621E81BB for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 11:48:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-la0-f47.google.com with SMTP id eo20so4447665lab.20 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 11:47:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=zjYBZJBZZrzgEdEDBv9EZ5INMTpsMRKNoWU54+q8nWw=; b=NM4HH02Pod1L4oUea0QGcb1jq4xh6aFPgytt81m9r+CtU2pAzAzNybimbAaorEfbTN XShQkRYeUDehp/7udZSJOGTXeQTo1gPpQBoEv+kEyp4p2+qjteR/lPw4HsyBk1LiG8HM DeNh2SicQts3ajck9EokgA0YMH/1dIxz7zLdQ97+BvI8db5YgqRs3h+ARyxX5zReWx1H ubiuougUQidmS3+mpONb+D2P8sdPAGSaAi1VWV9I5D+Z1mts3/IdXTmaNrlsvLoFNk7B 76bn3wzqo58wS9nzHnhL6f76eIm6NOtfEG7iWIux9tD8mSioVkN7vr4ozymKhz+VdGau ObEw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.3.42 with SMTP id 10mr22594897laz.22.1381603679575; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 11:47:59 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.134.232 with HTTP; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 11:47:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <61783D62-1266-422E-9010-15DCB1182F15@vpnc.org> References: <61783D62-1266-422E-9010-15DCB1182F15@vpnc.org> Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 14:47:59 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: OnAATuHrCtvHUDikM3UrZLsjHBw Message-ID: From: Barry Leiba To: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013d14b28aa2da04e88facca Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org Discussion" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Can't assign a new document shepherd X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 18:48:04 -0000 --089e013d14b28aa2da04e88facca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The shepherd needs a datatracker account. Whether that's good or not, it is, for now, how it is. The search can sometimes be finicky, and I believe there's a tools ticket about it. You need to search on the name, not the email address ("barry leiba" will find me, but "barryleiba" will not), and you have to get the name the way it is in the tracker ("matthew miller" will work, but "matt miller" won't). We really need to be able to search in the email address. But the idea is that the shepherd might need to do things that require logging in to the tracker, so the shepherd needs to be someone with a tracker account. It's easy enough for the prospective shepherd to get an account, and chairs will already have them. Barry On Saturday, October 12, 2013, Paul Hoffman wrote: > Greetings again. I'm trying to assign a shepherd for a document in my WG, > following the directions at < > http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/group/wgchairs/wiki/RequestingPublication>. I > go to the page for the draft, click on the pencil-like item at right of " > Document shepherd: No shepherd assigned", and type in the person's name > and email address. The tool tries to search for that name-address pair and > doesn't find it, but when I hit Enter or click Submit, it doesn't take the > new name. > > Not being able to assign someone as shepherd just because they are not > already in some database seems like a bug. Is that correct? Or am I missing > some UI bit that would allow me to assign someone not in the database? > > --Paul Hoffman > -- > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please reports datatracker.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > Please reports tools.ietf.org bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issuesor > send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > --089e013d14b28aa2da04e88facca Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The shepherd needs a datatracker account. =A0Whether that's good or not= , it is, for now, how it is.

The search can sometimes be= finicky, and I believe there's a tools ticket about it. =A0You need to= search on the name, not the email address ("barry leiba" will fi= nd me, but "barryleiba" will not), and you have to get the name t= he way it is in the tracker ("matthew miller" will work, but &quo= t;matt miller" won't). =A0We really need to be able to search in t= he email address.

But the idea is that the shepherd might need to do thin= gs that require logging in to the tracker, so the shepherd needs to be some= one with a tracker account. =A0 It's easy enough for the prospective sh= epherd to get an account, and chairs will already have them.

Barry

On Saturday, October 12, 2013, Paul Hoffma= n wrote:
Greetings again. I'm trying= to assign a shepherd for a document in my WG, following the directions at = <http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/group/wgchairs/wiki/= RequestingPublication>. I go to the page for the draft, click on the= pencil-like item at right of "
Document shepherd: No shepherd assigned", and type in the person's= name and email address. The tool tries to search for that name-address pai= r and doesn't find it, but when I hit Enter or click Submit, it doesn&#= 39;t take the new name.

Not being able to assign someone as shepherd just because they are not alre= ady in some database seems like a bug. Is that correct? Or am I missing som= e UI bit that would allow me to assign someone not in the database?

--Paul Hoffman
--
Tools-discuss mailing list
Tools-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

Please reports da= tatracker.ietf.org bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
Please reports tools.ie= tf.org bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues or
send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
--089e013d14b28aa2da04e88facca-- From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Sat Oct 12 11:54:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA0F321F9A44 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 11:54:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zr6ZhDlUuLhJ for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 11:54:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A660411E80DC for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 11:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-0-66-41.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id r9CIsCsV022153 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 12 Oct 2013 11:54:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-0-66-41.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.41] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 11:54:10 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0342BED7-4AE3-426B-82FD-B45D4585563B@vpnc.org> References: <61783D62-1266-422E-9010-15DCB1182F15@vpnc.org> To: Barry Leiba X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org Discussion" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Can't assign a new document shepherd X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 18:54:20 -0000 On Oct 12, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Barry Leiba = wrote: > The shepherd needs a datatracker account. Whether that's good or not, = it is, for now, how it is. The shepherd does. In this case, I'm going to be the shepherd, and I = have a datatracker account with the address I want. > The search can sometimes be finicky, and I believe there's a tools = ticket about it. You need to search on the name, not the email address = ("barry leiba" will find me, but "barryleiba" will not), and you have to = get the name the way it is in the tracker ("matthew miller" will work, = but "matt miller" won't). We really need to be able to search in the = email address. When I start typing my name, it comes up with my name and a wrong (old) = email address but not the current email address that I use for my = datatracker account. > But the idea is that the shepherd might need to do things that require = logging in to the tracker, so the shepherd needs to be someone with a = tracker account. It's easy enough for the prospective shepherd to get = an account, and chairs will already have them. Yes, we already do. :-) But it won't accept me trying to use it. --Paul Hoffman= From barryleiba@gmail.com Sat Oct 12 12:02:27 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D924921E81C1 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 12:02:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.989 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.989 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.012, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M7DmNQy8IsmL for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 12:02:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qa0-x22e.google.com (mail-qa0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c00::22e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DAEC21E81BD for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 12:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qa0-f46.google.com with SMTP id j15so1561292qaq.19 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 12:02:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=1BZrHo3laXYRFL19dYzAqFdiDDXXMgtGQO261xHEWKE=; b=z2JdMdFToOfELtLKrs20KGahH/ZTcGNOFaBGTCI4fvEG3JJgsyh/oCnLtFyB8VfK1I AahofaZTkZ9cN+IZWQtiM8k0fHYHExJBORMiF/W62E05mCAw+4b9ngVIGdegMxHE3l+Q T6m3VQDuDTRo7Vkyd6OG7AMBnzfT7EKaZKZp/TEtGS6BuJyQXpPI3qVx4ID3yWP5QiPn YV/4sWPt9p3WrHE15hqjakBTb/l5l/FCnZWgqmZV8jn5n+Ay4j/NwjLOdUWd+vgYfglM nBCnG/twrZ2AOAxvx0xZHagbkwQ9qoYofCd+vqQlkFTUZbaq2y9eMT05efgUnCe/wxRj nP/Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.49.127.179 with SMTP id nh19mr26882428qeb.1.1381604544785; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 12:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barryleiba@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.67.130 with HTTP; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 12:02:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <0342BED7-4AE3-426B-82FD-B45D4585563B@vpnc.org> References: <61783D62-1266-422E-9010-15DCB1182F15@vpnc.org> <0342BED7-4AE3-426B-82FD-B45D4585563B@vpnc.org> Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 15:02:24 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: z6OBSG9eKxQSLmQtckdEEM_0YRU Message-ID: From: Barry Leiba To: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b62249a1ccdcc04e88fe017 Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org Discussion" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Can't assign a new document shepherd X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 19:02:28 -0000 --047d7b62249a1ccdcc04e88fe017 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 You can log into the tracker with the account you have, and you can associate another email address with it, using the "Manage Account" link at the top left. Does that work for you? (I don't know whether the new address will show up in a search right away or not). Barry On Saturday, October 12, 2013, Paul Hoffman wrote: > On Oct 12, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Barry Leiba > > wrote: > > > The shepherd needs a datatracker account. Whether that's good or not, > it is, for now, how it is. > > The shepherd does. In this case, I'm going to be the shepherd, and I have > a datatracker account with the address I want. > > > The search can sometimes be finicky, and I believe there's a tools > ticket about it. You need to search on the name, not the email address > ("barry leiba" will find me, but "barryleiba" will not), and you have to > get the name the way it is in the tracker ("matthew miller" will work, but > "matt miller" won't). We really need to be able to search in the email > address. > > When I start typing my name, it comes up with my name and a wrong (old) > email address but not the current email address that I use for my > datatracker account. > > > But the idea is that the shepherd might need to do things that require > logging in to the tracker, so the shepherd needs to be someone with a > tracker account. It's easy enough for the prospective shepherd to get an > account, and chairs will already have them. > > Yes, we already do. :-) But it won't accept me trying to use it. > > --Paul Hoffman --047d7b62249a1ccdcc04e88fe017 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You can log into the tracker with the account you have, and you can associa= te another email address with it, using the "Manage Account" link= at the top left. =A0Does that work for you? =A0(I don't know whether t= he new address will show up in a search right away or not).

Barry

On Saturday, October 12, 2013, Paul Hoffman wr= ote:
On Oct 12, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Barry = Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org> wrote:

> The shepherd needs a datatracker account. =A0Whether that's good o= r not, it is, for now, how it is.

The shepherd does. In this case, I'm going to be the shepherd, and I ha= ve a datatracker account with the address I want.

> The search can sometimes be finicky, and I believe there's a tools= ticket about it. =A0You need to search on the name, not the email address = ("barry leiba" will find me, but "barryleiba" will not)= , and you have to get the name the way it is in the tracker ("matthew = miller" will work, but "matt miller" won't). =A0We reall= y need to be able to search in the email address.

When I start typing my name, it comes up with my name and a wrong (old) ema= il address but not the current email address that I use for my datatracker = account.

> But the idea is that the shepherd might need to do things that require= logging in to the tracker, so the shepherd needs to be someone with a trac= ker account. =A0 It's easy enough for the prospective shepherd to get a= n account, and chairs will already have them.

Yes, we already do. :-) But it won't accept me trying to use it.

--Paul Hoffman
--047d7b62249a1ccdcc04e88fe017-- From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Sat Oct 12 12:30:36 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84DE411E8142 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 12:30:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3QBvv-UsMrcp for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 12:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A464621E8085 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 12:30:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-0-66-41.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id r9CJUJ9Y026797 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 12 Oct 2013 12:30:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-0-66-41.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.41] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 12:30:17 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <61783D62-1266-422E-9010-15DCB1182F15@vpnc.org> <0342BED7-4AE3-426B-82FD-B45D4585563B@vpnc.org> To: Barry Leiba X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org Discussion" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Can't assign a new document shepherd X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 19:30:36 -0000 On Oct 12, 2013, at 12:02 PM, Barry Leiba = wrote: > You can log into the tracker with the account you have, and you can = associate another email address with it, using the "Manage Account" link = at the top left. Does that work for you? (I don't know whether the new = address will show up in a search right away or not). It's not the need for a new address; it is trying to get me to be able = to use the current address. So, I managed the account and turned off the = old address, but it still shows up in the list and my new (not really = new; been using it for >5 years) address still doesn't. --Paul Hoffman= From henrik@levkowetz.com Sat Oct 12 13:25:47 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1314B21E81CC for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 13:25:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rw3mq1MvDomR for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 13:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grenache.tools.ietf.org (grenache.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2a01:3f0:1:2::30]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 783FB21E81BB for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 13:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57962 helo=vigonier.tools.ietf.org ident=henrik) by grenache.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_CAMELLIA_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VV5ks-0007p2-Ux; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 22:25:42 +0200 Message-ID: <5259B046.9020204@levkowetz.com> Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 22:25:42 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130911 Thunderbird/17.0.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Hoffman References: <61783D62-1266-422E-9010-15DCB1182F15@vpnc.org> <0342BED7-4AE3-426B-82FD-B45D4585563B@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: paul.hoffman@vpnc.org, barryleiba@computer.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on grenache.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: Barry Leiba , "tools-discuss@ietf.org Discussion" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Can't assign a new document shepherd X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 20:25:47 -0000 Hi Paul, On 2013-10-12 21:30 Paul Hoffman said the following: > On Oct 12, 2013, at 12:02 PM, Barry Leiba > wrote: > >> You can log into the tracker with the account you have, and you can >> associate another email address with it, using the "Manage Account" >> link at the top left. Does that work for you? (I don't know >> whether the new address will show up in a search right away or >> not). > > It's not the need for a new address; it is trying to get me to be > able to use the current address. So, I managed the account and turned > off the old address, but it still shows up in the list and my new > (not really new; been using it for >5 years) address still doesn't. If you submit the form with your name (and the old email address) is it accepted? If so, the bug here is which (of several) email addresses is listed with the name. We can fix that. If not, the issue is more serious, and it would help to get a description of how the failure manifests. (Your login, and the shepherd assignment, is associated with your person record in the database; things should work right no matter which email address is shown with your name in the drop-down list. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to get the drop-down list right, but it does mean that you should be able to complete the shepherd assignment and get the shepherd role even if the drop-down list doesn't list your preferred email.) Best regards, Henrik From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Sat Oct 12 15:14:23 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 359DE21F9BCE for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 15:14:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YZPOaJkkc6Dm for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 15:14:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A327321F9E5E for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 15:14:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-0-66-41.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id r9CMEKld038728 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 12 Oct 2013 15:14:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-0-66-41.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.41] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: <5259B046.9020204@levkowetz.com> Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 15:14:20 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4962135C-DFF7-44DA-B03D-B1825D6AA182@vpnc.org> References: <61783D62-1266-422E-9010-15DCB1182F15@vpnc.org> <0342BED7-4AE3-426B-82FD-B45D4585563B@vpnc.org> <5259B046.9020204@levkowetz.com> To: Henrik Levkowetz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org Discussion" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Can't assign a new document shepherd X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 22:14:23 -0000 On Oct 12, 2013, at 1:25 PM, Henrik Levkowetz = wrote: > Hi Paul, >=20 > On 2013-10-12 21:30 Paul Hoffman said the following: >> On Oct 12, 2013, at 12:02 PM, Barry Leiba >> wrote: >>=20 >>> You can log into the tracker with the account you have, and you can >>> associate another email address with it, using the "Manage Account" >>> link at the top left. Does that work for you? (I don't know >>> whether the new address will show up in a search right away or >>> not). >>=20 >> It's not the need for a new address; it is trying to get me to be >> able to use the current address. So, I managed the account and turned >> off the old address, but it still shows up in the list and my new >> (not really new; been using it for >5 years) address still doesn't. >=20 > If you submit the form with your name (and the old email address) is = it accepted? Yes. > If so, the bug here is which (of several) email addresses is listed = with the > name. We can fix that. Yes, that seems like it. The tool forces you to pick a name/address pair = that you don't want. When you try to type in a new name/address pair, it = simply fails to accept it with no response indicating you did something = wrong. In my case it was worse because it offered me two names for me with = different email addresses; it must think those two are different people. = I'm not. :-) > (Your login, and the shepherd assignment, is associated with your = person record > in the database; things should work right no matter which email = address is shown > with your name in the drop-down list. That doesn't mean that we = shouldn't try > to get the drop-down list right, but it does mean that you should be = able to > complete the shepherd assignment and get the shepherd role even if the = drop-down > list doesn't list your preferred email.) A note to that effect on the page where you get to pick a shepherd (and = saying that the shepherd needs a Datatracker login) would be very = helpful. --Paul Hoffman= From henrik@levkowetz.com Sat Oct 12 15:29:07 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF63821F9A16 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 15:29:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cooA57KdudBX for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 15:29:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grenache.tools.ietf.org (grenache.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2a01:3f0:1:2::30]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB83221F9CA6 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2013 15:29:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40027 helo=vigonier.tools.ietf.org ident=henrik) by grenache.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_CAMELLIA_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VV7gG-00043j-MB; Sun, 13 Oct 2013 00:29:04 +0200 Message-ID: <5259CD30.3020903@levkowetz.com> Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 00:29:04 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130911 Thunderbird/17.0.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Hoffman References: <61783D62-1266-422E-9010-15DCB1182F15@vpnc.org> <0342BED7-4AE3-426B-82FD-B45D4585563B@vpnc.org> <5259B046.9020204@levkowetz.com> <4962135C-DFF7-44DA-B03D-B1825D6AA182@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: <4962135C-DFF7-44DA-B03D-B1825D6AA182@vpnc.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: paul.hoffman@vpnc.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on grenache.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org Discussion" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Can't assign a new document shepherd X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2013 22:29:08 -0000 On 2013-10-13 00:14 Paul Hoffman said the following: > On Oct 12, 2013, at 1:25 PM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > >> Hi Paul, >> >> On 2013-10-12 21:30 Paul Hoffman said the following: >>> On Oct 12, 2013, at 12:02 PM, Barry Leiba >>> wrote: >>> >>>> You can log into the tracker with the account you have, and you can >>>> associate another email address with it, using the "Manage Account" >>>> link at the top left. Does that work for you? (I don't know >>>> whether the new address will show up in a search right away or >>>> not). >>> >>> It's not the need for a new address; it is trying to get me to be >>> able to use the current address. So, I managed the account and turned >>> off the old address, but it still shows up in the list and my new >>> (not really new; been using it for >5 years) address still doesn't. >> >> If you submit the form with your name (and the old email address) is it accepted? > > Yes. Ok, good. >> If so, the bug here is which (of several) email addresses is listed with the >> name. We can fix that. > > Yes, that seems like it. The tool forces you to pick a name/address pair that you don't want. When you try to type in a new name/address pair, it simply fails to accept it with no response indicating you did something wrong. > > In my case it was worse because it offered me two names for me with different email addresses; it must think those two are different people. I'm not. :-) There are two person records in the database, with non-overlapping email addresses: Paul Hoffman: paul.hoffman@cybersecurity.org paul.hoffman@domain-assurance.org paul.hoffman@imc.org Paul E. Hoffman: paul.hoffman@vpnc.org phoffman@imc.org phoffman@proper.com It would probably be a good idea if you were to ask the secretariat to consolidate these, keeping the login associated with the second one. The first one has no login. >> (Your login, and the shepherd assignment, is associated with your person record >> in the database; things should work right no matter which email address is shown >> with your name in the drop-down list. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't try >> to get the drop-down list right, but it does mean that you should be able to >> complete the shepherd assignment and get the shepherd role even if the drop-down >> list doesn't list your preferred email.) > > A note to that effect on the page where you get to pick a shepherd (and saying that the shepherd needs a Datatracker login) would be very helpful. Agreed. I'll try to fix that in the next release. Best regards, Henrik From lars@netapp.com Mon Oct 14 04:44:43 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28E0921F93BA for ; Mon, 14 Oct 2013 04:44:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.554, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eVpv4Lsjj0dW for ; Mon, 14 Oct 2013 04:44:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx12.netapp.com (mx12.netapp.com [216.240.18.77]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5C5521F9BF3 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 2013 04:44:18 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.93,492,1378882800"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="100016156" Received: from vmwexceht04-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.77.34]) by mx12-out.netapp.com with ESMTP; 14 Oct 2013 04:44:18 -0700 Received: from SACEXCMBX01-PRD.hq.netapp.com ([169.254.2.51]) by vmwexceht04-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.77.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Mon, 14 Oct 2013 04:44:17 -0700 From: "Eggert, Lars" To: Henrik Levkowetz Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] agenda calendar issue Thread-Index: AQHOxlwirnC2gmPISkSgKoYH7K9PEJnvw4gAgAAHwgCABMLCAA== Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 11:44:17 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5B52BB3A-C629-49FA-9228-A2947EC9F7F9@netapp.com> <5257D430.5030308@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.106.53.51] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_73AC079F-722C-4CDC-879D-AA6E45F2264E"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: " Discussion" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] agenda calendar issue X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 11:44:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_73AC079F-722C-4CDC-879D-AA6E45F2264E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hi, On Oct 11, 2013, at 13:02, "Eggert, Lars" wrote: > Thanks! No urgency, but good to know it's being worked on. looks like it's fixed? (Except for the "IAOC Overview Session" on Sunday = that cannot be hidden.) But: When trying to subscribe to, e.g., = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/88/agenda.ics?GEN,IRTF,rmcat,nfsv4,mp= tcp,tcpm,tsvarea,appsawg,core,httpbis,intarea,ippm,aqm,tsvwg,rtgarea,rtgwg= ,saag,-edu,-tools in Google Calendar I get an error "Could not fetch the = url because robots.txt prevents us from crawling the url." Lars --Apple-Mail=_73AC079F-722C-4CDC-879D-AA6E45F2264E Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQCVAwUBUlvZENZcnpRveo1xAQIWTAP/fMMATjJC5NYmvIJxkKx4AMCig7MTsk4R v9WSLn1FbyS+95KPkHSexHAEat2jDAl7yZCcXkqIv8u5G9TDA0kJLJZ8Osluzg+q yYvYikTrsBQSWq8Kw7+8OJgnDn6DCWLpyDiN+aAn38/0sfA97IJOpbBNALmT/WDs sr+Bzw9Q2q4= =+r2/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_73AC079F-722C-4CDC-879D-AA6E45F2264E-- From henrik@levkowetz.com Mon Oct 14 05:34:33 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCB1221F9EE9 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 2013 05:34:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qP2+bCs8BFWx for ; Mon, 14 Oct 2013 05:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grenache.tools.ietf.org (grenache.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2a01:3f0:1:2::30]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A9C921E8164 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 2013 05:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44745 helo=vigonier.tools.ietf.org ident=henrik) by grenache.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_CAMELLIA_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VVhLY-0001n5-0l; Mon, 14 Oct 2013 14:34:04 +0200 Message-ID: <525BE4BB.4090602@levkowetz.com> Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 14:34:03 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130911 Thunderbird/17.0.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Eggert, Lars" References: <5B52BB3A-C629-49FA-9228-A2947EC9F7F9@netapp.com> <5257D430.5030308@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: lars@netapp.com, tools-discuss@ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on grenache.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: " Discussion" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] agenda calendar issue X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2013 12:34:34 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Lars, On 2013-10-14 13:44 Eggert, Lars said the following: > Hi, > > On Oct 11, 2013, at 13:02, "Eggert, Lars" wrote: >> Thanks! No urgency, but good to know it's being worked on. > > looks like it's fixed? (Except for the "IAOC Overview Session" on > Sunday that cannot be hidden.) It's partially fixed; I worked out a patch during the weekend and applied it this morning. There are still known issues with the .txt .ics and .csv versions of the agenda, however. > But: When trying to subscribe to, e.g., > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/88/agenda.ics?GEN,IRTF,rmcat,nfsv4,mptcp,tcpm,tsvarea,appsawg,core,httpbis,intarea,ippm,aqm,tsvwg,rtgarea,rtgwg,saag,-edu,-tools > in Google Calendar I get an error "Could not fetch the url because > robots.txt prevents us from crawling the url." Ugh. It's picking up the development robots.txt instead of the production. I've fixed it temporarily by editing the dev version, have to figure out why the wrong one is presented. However, as mentioned above, I don't expect the .ics file to be good yet, but believe I'll have it in shape by tomorrow. Best regards, Henrik -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJSW+S7AAoJEE6bV0uPuxcaZVwP/14J34OnXUNKALhW0ZZ00Jg/ YdMmr02ZXtHOcpPan+wODH2R4dMMTwWLE+qbO3KThSWgqnLVIABe0LFs8jhF7DFP /lOcjcw5ui5WMVFoTH+cCO6tmIurq60SqKJxrKTYOlu/a7+gKYXxxYGkZAJiyjNs 1Pmqh33SRM/3dWXaGWCDVqLX/+p3Xm9Dyk6fbXndpDatMTrbSR3SnYaBkSqgdxWE C+Xg3aQ+QK85FSE/Al6oB1ln6D/+nbDQlDXFLnKEOFXw1LOcqkbaDlTfbDesMWUL /4VqDVx0vaVSEEpBPzR6QoaRmV0VI1MKOGETpNAYauJkGBjIeUhrs1OQcF4hurTB Wx7JOwOM3AUGn5fVKofpl2lL2/fUqraB3y/UG0ERBUw5iY4CwCOhfaRZokj2kUJB e9V5/LrcBW+mnhAMIpN3pRmTZlQ9DWE/secN0NAbowqIQquL21LLqZJzbFht1NOL xaJ2ldAx7XaI57LB6QQgINeSc34o8Vny21XXKJ99lvH8FkOGKbKXEO/W46tTsK2/ hgwxN2mEdh6l4mdSHzwoFDSVJlRQdqjxnGLe5BbpiqBm4UR9B93iATOOBsDXsx1o uSr6B1b5ECeVms0rrlnoCpr2CAzTn2en3n37DGyaVkbNWZXnYBGN2deMq6jSvyRK idTN+1KlfwHPWvOGu4ag =OMwC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From wesley.george@twcable.com Tue Oct 15 10:51:12 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 454FC11E8140 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 10:51:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.213 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.213 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.250, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Iy2iH4TTEg6J for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 10:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdpipgw01.twcable.com (cdpipgw01.twcable.com [165.237.59.22]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 299C311E8188 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 10:51:01 -0700 (PDT) X-SENDER-IP: 10.136.163.10 X-SENDER-REPUTATION: None X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.93,500,1378872000"; d="scan'208";a="149445648" Received: from unknown (HELO PRVPEXHUB01.corp.twcable.com) ([10.136.163.10]) by cdpipgw01.twcable.com with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-MD5; 15 Oct 2013 13:50:37 -0400 Received: from PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.78]) by PRVPEXHUB01.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.10]) with mapi; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 13:50:56 -0400 From: "George, Wes" To: "Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)" , RFC Interest , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 13:50:54 -0400 Thread-Topic: [rfc-i] Direction of the RFC Format Development effort Thread-Index: Ac5HdFgfl/Jmh54tREOiDiCgu7j0iiCUfEOg Message-ID: <2671C6CDFBB59E47B64C10B3E0BD5923043D13C483@PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com> References: <5176C1CB.2040604@rfc-editor.org> <21472D57FC1CF4019DED892A@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <517ACF73.7080407@rfc-editor.org> <51800844.704@rfc-editor.org> <51801112.7090408@isode.com> <0A11A52466D194B8735813A6@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <5182CDA0.2080202@rfc-editor.org> In-Reply-To: <5182CDA0.2080202@rfc-editor.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Direction of the RFC Format Development effort X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 17:51:12 -0000 Last year I asked whether there were alternatives to XMLMind for XML docume= nt editing. I realized I wasn't asking the question correctly when I got ba= ck answers on good tools to manually edit XML (e.g. Emacs, etc). A recent c= hange in laptop leaves me without a good solution, so I ask again, rephrase= d. Is there a FOSS tool (or a commercially-available tool that isn't punitivel= y expensive) to do direct WYSIWYG editing of XML files using IETF's DTD? Prior to their change in licensing structure in September 2012, XMLMind off= ered a robust tool for what they call "near WYSIWYG" and when used with a p= lugin that integrated XML2RFC directly into the tool (xml2rfc-xxe on google= code) and Elywn Davies's XML templates, it was nearly one-stop shopping fo= r I-D production for those who weren't keen on hacking XML directly. Howeve= r, XMLMind no longer offers a free version, and their licensing costs are p= rohibitive (starting at $350USD/250EUR, or $11K for a site license), and my= searches for alternatives haven't netted much in the way of results. As far as I can tell, the current options are to either manually edit XML, = or to use a WYSIWYG editor to generate markdown, or HTML, or NROFF, or to u= se MS Word to generate text, then translate that to XML, then translate tha= t to canonical text and other formats using XML2RFC. I would think that one= of the primary goals of the RFC format transition would be to cut some of = the steps out of document production to reduce complexity and make the proc= ess more accessible for newer participants. It's unclear from the text belo= w if this need for a WYSIWYG XML editing tool with XML2RFC integration is s= omething that the RFC Editor and/or Tools team is already aware of and work= ing to find a solution to or not. I'd love for someone to tell me that I'm needlessly complicating this and t= he solution is right under my nose, but that's not the sense I get from the= existing ID prep tools page... Thanks, Wes George > -----Original Message----- > From: rfc-interest-bounces@rfc-editor.org [mailto:rfc-interest- > bounces@rfc-editor.org] On Behalf Of Heather Flanagan (RFC Series > Editor) > Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 4:34 PM > > The direction we will be exploring is one where the Canonical format - > the format that is authoritative for content of an RFC - is XML using > the xml2rfc DTD. [WEG] [snip] > * Given the difficulty some authors have expressed in using xml2rfc, is > it possible to add new elements to allow for additional Publication > format while still having a commonly usable tool? > Anything below this line has been added by my company's mail server, I have= no control over it. ----------------- This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable propri= etary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyrig= ht belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the u= se of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the= intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissem= ination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents= of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawf= ul. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender imm= ediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail an= d any printout. From cabo@tzi.org Tue Oct 15 11:34:42 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EE3C11E8166 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 11:34:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.162 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.162 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.087, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n7qtQiUMehDx for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 11:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EDE011E8186 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 11:34:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r9FIYJgV001882; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 20:34:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.105] (p54891C1E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.28.30]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C9D01E75; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 20:34:18 +0200 (CEST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <2671C6CDFBB59E47B64C10B3E0BD5923043D13C483@PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 20:34:17 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <5176C1CB.2040604@rfc-editor.org> <21472D57FC1CF4019DED892A@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <517ACF73.7080407@rfc-editor.org> <51800844.704@rfc-editor.org> <51801112.7090408@isode.com> <0A11A52466D194B8735813A6@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <5182CDA0.2080202@rfc-editor.org> <2671C6CDFBB59E47B64C10B3E0BD5923043D13C483@PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com> To: "George, Wes" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Cc: RFC Interest , "Heather Flanagan \(RFC Series Editor\)" , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Direction of the RFC Format Development effort X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 18:34:42 -0000 On Oct 15, 2013, at 19:50, "George, Wes" = wrote: > need for a WYSIWYG XML editing tool Who "needs" that? I sure understand that it's not easy to like editing XML directly. But I'm not sure what "WYSIWYG" means here -- do you mean looking at = paged line printer ASCII (.txt) format or looking at XSLT-formatted = XML/HTML? > needlessly complicating this=20 Yes. There is a clear industry trend towards markdown-based publishing chains = (draftin.com, leanpub.com, ...; simple tools such as IA writer, Byword, = Writedown, Mou; more powerful tool chains such as Scrivener...). The tools we have today for building RFCs from markdown (Miek Gieben's = pandoc solution or kramdown-rfc2629) aren't perfect yet but are doing = their job. Both are using RFC2629 XML as a lingua france to = interoperate with the other tools, so there is no need to destabilize = the entire RFC editor tools set while we improve them. Editing markdown is rather close to "WYSIWYG editing" of an ASCII RFC. Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From nico@cryptonector.com Tue Oct 15 12:39:11 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5761711E8149 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:39:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.109 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.132, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uvpo30y1os7q for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a63.g.dreamhost.com (mailbigip.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.5]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0763611E8166 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:39:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a63.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a63.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 907872F4071 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:39:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=Z8g8lsDAMLoXMyh2ma6q7LS/tBs=; b=t5HHC320eG3 /XXhyD9IY6RT5naklpNQzGZdgntyzaEieuG3ssPXs/egi8SZ1VOb9OGN7vpq6ID6 EcsJSZOY4euwh43UNuFjO/hoQM7AkNQ8rkFSvv6rkMmNWiiMur13sznUv3s/OFGH 1SBOW27tcI/N+n055Do60LHUZ4SWG76M= Received: from mail-wg0-f42.google.com (mail-wg0-f42.google.com [74.125.82.42]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a63.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3A15B2F4065 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:39:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f42.google.com with SMTP id n12so3099560wgh.3 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:39:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=3rKmbKCQOa4YqQNz5ZcykjxzqJdJmSsFoazeJoHVSUU=; b=AdDYHgDjNsttdgdSyadQ3gYKRDceUjo+A6yD0hHB1jb4jXGlwPmKcAzv0VdWIqjW2q ymzLAq5Ak85/wUEQ177yp0uWfEFFiTiQK3HCULgONvHbKnIGJf3b2g8WlMW5B0V8hUCh D5wGRi5LfP3cEGLbPORDn0TDFPiPuBUyN9nWIIAAEUdpRujM1vHiMeAnDNxIW+sYskey E5/B0LRoC+D+T8S4C0p8bWLTyJBZoXIW7COPCf5pm3Gcj+4q6daqJs9SmBQPMdVFJ1Hu zcp3MAVn2JV4JYRm7zdlClyf/G8dT8eTs+QJlwao0u+8etpm+05mj/8Y8cHt/2oywKTy ISAA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.182.82 with SMTP id ec18mr20884815wic.13.1381865943272; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.151.136 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:39:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <5176C1CB.2040604@rfc-editor.org> <21472D57FC1CF4019DED892A@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <517ACF73.7080407@rfc-editor.org> <51800844.704@rfc-editor.org> <51801112.7090408@isode.com> <0A11A52466D194B8735813A6@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <5182CDA0.2080202@rfc-editor.org> <2671C6CDFBB59E47B64C10B3E0BD5923043D13C483@PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 14:39:03 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: RFC Interest , "Heather Flanagan \(RFC Series Editor\)" , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" , "George, Wes" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Direction of the RFC Format Development effort X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 19:39:11 -0000 On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 1:34 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On Oct 15, 2013, at 19:50, "George, Wes" wrot= e: > >> need for a WYSIWYG XML editing tool > > Who "needs" that? I don't, but I got bored of editing XML by hand (even with VIM). So I wrote a tool that allows one to write I-Ds with LyX (a WYSIWYM tool), lyx2rfc (http://lyx2rfc.org/lyx2rfc/lyx2rfc.html). Yaron Scheffer webified it. There's other similar tools, from ones that use markdown to to ones based on nroff (e.g., http://aaa-sec.com/nroffedit/). See the list archives. > I sure understand that it's not easy to like editing XML directly. No, it's not easy to *like* editing XML directly. > But I'm not sure what "WYSIWYG" means here -- do you mean looking at page= d line printer ASCII (.txt) format or looking at XSLT-formatted XML/HTML? Just look at NroffEdit or lyx2rfc screenshots and you'll get an idea of what Wes probably has in mind. >> needlessly complicating this > > Yes. > > There is a clear industry trend towards markdown-based publishing chains = (draftin.com, leanpub.com, ...; simple tools such as IA writer, Byword, Wri= tedown, Mou; more powerful tool chains such as Scrivener...). I don't care that much for markdown. I don't care that much for editing source. I do care for vi keybindings though, and that's a bit of a problem that leaves one with few options but markdown. But that's another story. > The tools we have today for building RFCs from markdown (Miek Gieben's pa= ndoc solution or kramdown-rfc2629) aren't perfect yet but are doing their j= ob. Both are using RFC2629 XML as a lingua france to interoperate with the= other tools, so there is no need to destabilize the entire RFC editor tool= s set while we improve them. > > Editing markdown is rather close to "WYSIWYG editing" of an ASCII RFC. I don't think so. There's a lot of things that are not trivial in markdown. From description lists to artwork to tables, and so on. The simple things, on the other hand, really are simple in markdown. Nico -- From wesley.george@twcable.com Tue Oct 15 12:45:00 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B84611E81E6 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:44:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.741 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.741 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.278, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2felNfl4f1Oq for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdcipgw01.twcable.com (cdcipgw01.twcable.com [165.237.91.110]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3FB521F9AE6 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:44:50 -0700 (PDT) X-SENDER-IP: 10.136.163.15 X-SENDER-REPUTATION: None X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.93,501,1378872000"; d="scan'208";a="51013828" Received: from unknown (HELO PRVPEXHUB06.corp.twcable.com) ([10.136.163.15]) by cdcipgw01.twcable.com with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-MD5; 15 Oct 2013 15:44:41 -0400 Received: from PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.78]) by PRVPEXHUB06.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.15]) with mapi; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 15:44:49 -0400 From: "George, Wes" To: Carsten Bormann Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 15:44:48 -0400 Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Direction of the RFC Format Development effort Thread-Index: Ac7J1WCLvMZy/DxBTNGB5JceNpe8PwAAJkNw Message-ID: <2671C6CDFBB59E47B64C10B3E0BD5923043D65F099@PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com> References: <5176C1CB.2040604@rfc-editor.org> <21472D57FC1CF4019DED892A@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <517ACF73.7080407@rfc-editor.org> <51800844.704@rfc-editor.org> <51801112.7090408@isode.com> <0A11A52466D194B8735813A6@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <5182CDA0.2080202@rfc-editor.org> <2671C6CDFBB59E47B64C10B3E0BD5923043D13C483@PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: RFC Interest , "Heather Flanagan \(RFC Series Editor\)" , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Direction of the RFC Format Development effort X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 19:45:00 -0000 > From: Carsten Bormann [mailto:cabo@tzi.org] > Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 2:34 PM > > > need for a WYSIWYG XML editing tool > > Who "needs" that? [WEG] Well, after having used one for 2+ years (essentially the entire time= I've been writing I-Ds), and knowing how it streamlines the workflow of bu= ilding I-Ds, I do. The fact that an XML2RFC plugin existed for it (maintain= ed by Bill Fenner and Warren Kumari IIRC) tells me that I'm not the only on= e who was using XMLMind. I understand that plenty of people are not going t= o see the need for anything other than a text editor plus some CLI tools to= turn out I-Ds. I'm not one of those folks, and I think user-friendliness s= hould be a goal here. > > But I'm not sure what "WYSIWYG" means here -- do you mean looking at > paged line printer ASCII (.txt) format or looking at XSLT-formatted > XML/HTML? [WEG] I think it's the latter. XMLMind's UI looks somewhat similar to a wor= d processing interface, with buttons to {add, promote, demote} sections, in= sert [un]numbered lists, tables, figures, and a pulldown to handle IPR decl= arations, document type, etc. It has the ability to simply click in a given= section and type, as well as the ability to copy/paste objects (sections, = references, figures, etc) in addition to copy/paste of raw text, plus spell= check and direct validation of the 2629 XML DTD, and both txt and html out= put using XML2RFC. It doesn't replicate the format of a TXT I-D in the edit= ing mode, but it does wrangle the XML tags for all except a few tweaks here= and there. I can supply screenshots if they'd be useful to the discussion. > > There is a clear industry trend towards markdown-based publishing chains.= .. [WEG] Yet Heather's recommendation in no way mentions markdown. So I think = my point stands - there's multiple intermediate steps between the raw text = and something that the RFC editor process can accept (XML), and replicating= the functionality of something like XMLmind would be a useful way to allow= people to interact directly with XML files without the intermediate steps. > > > Editing markdown is rather close to "WYSIWYG editing" of an ASCII RFC. [WEG] Note that I never mentioned editing ASCII RFCs. There is so little fo= rmatting that happens in an ASCII version of an RFC that is user-influenced= that I'd rather not have to worry about the ASCII RFC formatting rules. Ho= wever, as we start talking about the differences between the canonical vers= ion of an I-D and other versions (HTML, etc) that can support more robust f= ormatting, there is going to be a need for a tool to help do things a littl= e more WYSIWYG. While editing Markdown is arguably easier than editing XML, I don't see muc= h point in learning a secondary set of tags and how to use another tool to = convert back and forth between XML and Markdown vs simply editing XML direc= tly if those are my only options. Perhaps if we were to select one or more = FOSS markdown WYSIWYG editors and build a useful plugin to integrate macros= to generate the formatting and references unique to I-Ds and the pandoc or= kramdown translation functions so that what comes out the other side is XM= L (and one can open an XML source doc and the tool can convert to markdown = in order to edit it), that might be a workable alternative. Wes George This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable propri= etary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyrig= ht belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the u= se of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the= intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissem= ination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents= of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawf= ul. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender imm= ediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail an= d any printout. From dcrocker@bbiw.net Tue Oct 15 12:46:44 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1269511E81F8 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:46:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DSf0fG8FNQ87 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:46:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B2DB11E81F0 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:46:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.100.255.252] ([203.167.240.58]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r9FJkV1A026026 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:46:35 -0700 Message-ID: <525D9B85.8010708@bbiw.net> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 08:46:13 +1300 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "George, Wes" References: <5176C1CB.2040604@rfc-editor.org> <21472D57FC1CF4019DED892A@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <517ACF73.7080407@rfc-editor.org> <51800844.704@rfc-editor.org> <51801112.7090408@isode.com> <0A11A52466D194B8735813A6@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <5182CDA0.2080202@rfc-editor.org> <2671C6CDFBB59E47B64C10B3E0BD5923043D13C483@PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.67]); Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Cc: RFC Interest , "Heather Flanagan \(RFC Series Editor\)" , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Direction of the RFC Format Development effort X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 19:46:44 -0000 On 10/16/2013 7:34 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> need for a WYSIWYG XML editing tool > Who "needs" that? It probably won't qualify as good enough, but Oxygen's Author tool has an author mode that does a rough wysywig display, if it's given a css file. At this point, I've lost track of what xml2rfc files are part of xml.resource.org and what files came from Julian Reschke, but in any event the necessary support files are readily available. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From dhc@dcrocker.net Tue Oct 15 12:48:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15BA811E8203 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:48:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7uCALLTkiMz8 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:48:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93BB111E8156 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:48:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.100.255.252] ([203.167.240.58]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r9FJm9Pk026066 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:48:13 -0700 Message-ID: <525D9BE7.6080308@dcrocker.net> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 08:47:51 +1300 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "George, Wes" References: <5176C1CB.2040604@rfc-editor.org> <21472D57FC1CF4019DED892A@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <517ACF73.7080407@rfc-editor.org> <51800844.704@rfc-editor.org> <51801112.7090408@isode.com> <0A11A52466D194B8735813A6@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <5182CDA0.2080202@rfc-editor.org> <2671C6CDFBB59E47B64C10B3E0BD5923043D13C483@PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:48:14 -0700 (PDT) Cc: RFC Interest , "Heather Flanagan \(RFC Series Editor\)" , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Direction of the RFC Format Development effort X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 19:48:19 -0000 On 10/16/2013 7:34 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> need for a WYSIWYG XML editing tool > Who "needs" that? It probably won't qualify as good enough, but Oxygen's Author tool has an author mode that does a rough wysywig display, if it's given a css file. At this point, I've lost track of what xml2rfc files are part of xml.resource.org and what files came from Julian Reschke, but in any event the necessary support files are readily available. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From wesley.george@twcable.com Tue Oct 15 12:56:09 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9840911E814B for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:56:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.713 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.713 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.250, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v5p7ZVPWUrL3 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdcipgw01.twcable.com (cdcipgw01.twcable.com [165.237.91.110]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80B3711E8183 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:56:04 -0700 (PDT) X-SENDER-IP: 10.136.163.15 X-SENDER-REPUTATION: None X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.93,501,1378872000"; d="scan'208";a="51016572" Received: from unknown (HELO PRVPEXHUB06.corp.twcable.com) ([10.136.163.15]) by cdcipgw01.twcable.com with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-MD5; 15 Oct 2013 15:55:55 -0400 Received: from PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.78]) by PRVPEXHUB06.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.15]) with mapi; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 15:56:03 -0400 From: "George, Wes" To: Dave Crocker Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 15:56:02 -0400 Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Direction of the RFC Format Development effort Thread-Index: Ac7J30OJXnEY5rCDTWGxGHISoRttyQAARMXg Message-ID: <2671C6CDFBB59E47B64C10B3E0BD5923043D65F0C7@PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com> References: <5176C1CB.2040604@rfc-editor.org> <21472D57FC1CF4019DED892A@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <517ACF73.7080407@rfc-editor.org> <51800844.704@rfc-editor.org> <51801112.7090408@isode.com> <0A11A52466D194B8735813A6@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <5182CDA0.2080202@rfc-editor.org> <2671C6CDFBB59E47B64C10B3E0BD5923043D13C483@PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com> <525D9B85.8010708@bbiw.net> In-Reply-To: <525D9B85.8010708@bbiw.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: RFC Interest , "Heather Flanagan \(RFC Series Editor\)" , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Direction of the RFC Format Development effort X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 19:56:09 -0000 > From: Dave Crocker [mailto:dcrocker@bbiw.net] > > It probably won't qualify as good enough, but Oxygen's Author tool has > an author mode that does a rough wysywig display, if it's given a css > file. > [WEG] Dunno. I looked at Oxygen, but abandoned it quickly after discovering= that it suffers from the same problem as XMLMind -- sticker shock. Thanks Wes George This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable propri= etary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyrig= ht belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the u= se of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the= intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissem= ination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents= of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawf= ul. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender imm= ediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail an= d any printout. From julian.reschke@gmx.de Tue Oct 15 13:42:29 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75C5811E81EA for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 13:42:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 060SbV842yXp for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 13:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AFB811E8211 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 13:42:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.36] ([93.217.78.78]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Ma2Lr-1VBczD3FD5-00Ljil for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 22:42:20 +0200 Message-ID: <525DA8A8.3010008@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 22:42:16 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Phillip Hallam-Baker , Dave Crocker References: <5176C1CB.2040604@rfc-editor.org> <21472D57FC1CF4019DED892A@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <517ACF73.7080407@rfc-editor.org> <51800844.704@rfc-editor.org> <51801112.7090408@isode.com> <0A11A52466D194B8735813A6@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <5182CDA0.2080202@rfc-editor.org> <2671C6CDFBB59E47B64C10B3E0BD5923043D13C483@PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com> <525D9BE7.6080308@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:WkEh7NorLjvhPDoX7Tcb5MiWEjd6PBMT7JUySO69weBvjK5uFAJ Wo0bTwaV/rchlKwM+fFzlIKnPz5GnLDy6/+Eg7RSOPGRH5Yy+B8Amp5Em2Virp21Vv/daaK UPlLis2KRSorLfQmpBewDIFy1selhzX5K0Ulpy3Jk+O8EXqe3i/eGo9zIZoAS6xVgTKprzL uLFBa+WLDH2ShIsL7Mrdg== Cc: RFC Interest , "Heather Flanagan \(RFC Series Editor\)" , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Direction of the RFC Format Development effort X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 20:42:29 -0000 On 2013-10-15 22:30, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > ... > It would be useful if the xml2rfc tool generated HTML in a way that was > not 'lossy'. If the tool generates

headings rather than

tags > with style sheet links it is much easier to recover structure. > ... It does. Or am I missing something? From dhc@dcrocker.net Tue Oct 15 13:52:34 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6777021F9BC1 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 13:52:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3lKyVvxFNK9x for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 13:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BFAF21F9B85 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 13:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.100.255.252] ([203.167.240.58]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r9FKqJJU027802 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 15 Oct 2013 13:52:24 -0700 Message-ID: <525DAAF0.6080604@dcrocker.net> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 09:52:00 +1300 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Reschke References: <5176C1CB.2040604@rfc-editor.org> <21472D57FC1CF4019DED892A@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <517ACF73.7080407@rfc-editor.org> <51800844.704@rfc-editor.org> <51801112.7090408@isode.com> <0A11A52466D194B8735813A6@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <5182CDA0.2080202@rfc-editor.org> <2671C6CDFBB59E47B64C10B3E0BD5923043D13C483@PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com> <525D9BE7.6080308@dcrocker.net> <525DA8A8.3010008@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <525DA8A8.3010008@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.66]); Tue, 15 Oct 2013 13:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Cc: RFC Interest , "Heather Flanagan \(RFC Series Editor\)" , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Direction of the RFC Format Development effort X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 20:52:34 -0000 On 10/16/2013 9:42 AM, Julian Reschke wrote: > On 2013-10-15 22:30, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: >> ... It would be useful if the xml2rfc tool generated HTML in a way >> that was not 'lossy'. If the tool generates

headings rather >> than

tags with style sheet links it is much easier to recover >> structure. ... > > It does. Or am I missing something? From an xml2rfc draft I'm editing, here's the html produced through the oXygen processor: >

href="#rfc.section.1.2">1.2 Working Group Authority and > Consensus

> >

A core premise of IETF working groups is > that the working group has final authority over the content of its > documents, within the constraints of the working group charter. No > individual has special Note that the header is second-level. Doc also contains h1, of course. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From warren@kumari.net Tue Oct 15 23:19:20 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65E6111E80F9 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 23:19:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lc3R4PhF8KOe for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 23:19:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vimes.kumari.net (smtp1.kumari.net [204.194.22.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82AAB11E80FC for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 23:19:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-25-116.ripemtg.ripe.net (dhcp-25-116.ripemtg.ripe.net [193.0.25.116]) by vimes.kumari.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 83EF71B402F2; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 02:19:10 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Warren Kumari In-Reply-To: <2671C6CDFBB59E47B64C10B3E0BD5923043D65F099@PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 09:19:08 +0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3FCB1287-6148-4907-B5A7-9E3AE7AFFB4A@kumari.net> References: <5176C1CB.2040604@rfc-editor.org> <21472D57FC1CF4019DED892A@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <517ACF73.7080407@rfc-editor.org> <51800844.704@rfc-editor.org> <51801112.7090408@isode.com> <0A11A52466D194B8735813A6@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <5182CDA0.2080202@rfc-editor.org> <2671C6CDFBB59E47B64C10B3E0BD5923043D13C483@PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com> <2671C6CDFBB59E47B64C10B3E0BD5923043D65F099@PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com> To: "George, Wes" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Cc: Carsten Bormann , "Heather Flanagan \(RFC Series Editor\)" , RFC Interest , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Direction of the RFC Format Development effort X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 06:19:20 -0000 On Oct 15, 2013, at 10:44 PM, "George, Wes" = wrote: >> From: Carsten Bormann [mailto:cabo@tzi.org] >> Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 2:34 PM >>=20 >>> need for a WYSIWYG XML editing tool >>=20 >> Who "needs" that? > [WEG] Well, after having used one for 2+ years (essentially the entire = time I've been writing I-Ds), and knowing how it streamlines the = workflow of building I-Ds, I do. The fact that an XML2RFC plugin existed = for it (maintained by Bill Fenner and Warren Kumari IIRC) tells me that = I'm not the only one who was using XMLMind. I understand that plenty of = people are not going to see the need for anything other than a text = editor plus some CLI tools to turn out I-Ds. I'm not one of those folks, = and I think user-friendliness should be a goal here. Yeah.=20 It was sad when they removed the free version, but editing XML in Emacs = made me sufficiently unhappy that I ponied up the $$$ and bought a copy = :-( W >>=20 >> But I'm not sure what "WYSIWYG" means here -- do you mean looking at >> paged line printer ASCII (.txt) format or looking at XSLT-formatted >> XML/HTML? > [WEG] I think it's the latter. XMLMind's UI looks somewhat similar to = a word processing interface, with buttons to {add, promote, demote} = sections, insert [un]numbered lists, tables, figures, and a pulldown to = handle IPR declarations, document type, etc. It has the ability to = simply click in a given section and type, as well as the ability to = copy/paste objects (sections, references, figures, etc) in addition to = copy/paste of raw text, plus spell check and direct validation of the = 2629 XML DTD, and both txt and html output using XML2RFC. It doesn't = replicate the format of a TXT I-D in the editing mode, but it does = wrangle the XML tags for all except a few tweaks here and there. > I can supply screenshots if they'd be useful to the discussion. >=20 >>=20 >> There is a clear industry trend towards markdown-based publishing = chains... > [WEG] Yet Heather's recommendation in no way mentions markdown. So I = think my point stands - there's multiple intermediate steps between the = raw text and something that the RFC editor process can accept (XML), and = replicating the functionality of something like XMLmind would be a = useful way to allow people to interact directly with XML files without = the intermediate steps. >>=20 >>=20 >> Editing markdown is rather close to "WYSIWYG editing" of an ASCII = RFC. > [WEG] Note that I never mentioned editing ASCII RFCs. There is so = little formatting that happens in an ASCII version of an RFC that is = user-influenced that I'd rather not have to worry about the ASCII RFC = formatting rules. However, as we start talking about the differences = between the canonical version of an I-D and other versions (HTML, etc) = that can support more robust formatting, there is going to be a need for = a tool to help do things a little more WYSIWYG. > While editing Markdown is arguably easier than editing XML, I don't = see much point in learning a secondary set of tags and how to use = another tool to convert back and forth between XML and Markdown vs = simply editing XML directly if those are my only options. Perhaps if we = were to select one or more FOSS markdown WYSIWYG editors and build a = useful plugin to integrate macros to generate the formatting and = references unique to I-Ds and the pandoc or kramdown translation = functions so that what comes out the other side is XML (and one can open = an XML source doc and the tool can convert to markdown in order to edit = it), that might be a workable alternative. >=20 > Wes George >=20 >=20 > This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable = proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject = to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended = solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. = If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby = notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken = in relation to the contents of and attachments to this E-mail is = strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this = E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently = delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and any printout. > --=20 > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please reports datatracker.ietf.org bugs at = http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > Please reports tools.ietf.org bugs at = http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues or > send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >=20 -- "Working the ICANN process is like being nibbled to death by ducks, it takes forever, it doesn't make sense, and in the end we're still dead = in the water."=20 -- Tom Galvin, VeriSign's vice president for government relations. From rse@rfc-editor.org Wed Oct 16 08:18:32 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B42BE21F9F51 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 08:18:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.250, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k7tTNfKaiIcU for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 08:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.amsl.com (mail.amsl.com [IPv6:2001:1890:126c::1:15]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E677C21F85D1 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 08:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c9a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53718A621B; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 08:17:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from c9a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c9a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7DckV-PyuwYp; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 08:17:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Heathers-MacBook-Pro.local (unknown [98.125.184.223]) by c9a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 04560A61B3; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 08:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <525EAE45.8000409@rfc-editor.org> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 08:18:29 -0700 From: "Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "George, Wes" , RFC Interest , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" References: <5176C1CB.2040604@rfc-editor.org> <21472D57FC1CF4019DED892A@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <517ACF73.7080407@rfc-editor.org> <51800844.704@rfc-editor.org> <51801112.7090408@isode.com> <0A11A52466D194B8735813A6@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <5182CDA0.2080202@rfc-editor.org> <2671C6CDFBB59E47B64C10B3E0BD5923043D13C483@PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com> In-Reply-To: <2671C6CDFBB59E47B64C10B3E0BD5923043D13C483@PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Direction of the RFC Format Development effort X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:18:32 -0000 On 10/15/13 10:50 AM, George, Wes wrote: > As far as I can tell, the current options are to either manually edit XML, or to use a WYSIWYG editor to generate markdown, or HTML, or NROFF, or to use MS Word to generate text, then translate that to XML, then translate that to canonical text and other formats using XML2RFC. I would think that one of the primary goals of the RFC format transition would be to cut some of the steps out of document production to reduce complexity and make the process more accessible for newer participants. It's unclear from the text below if this need for a WYSIWYG XML editing tool with XML2RFC integration is something that the RFC Editor and/or Tools team is already aware of and working to find a solution to or not. As a point of clarification, the RFC Editor will have to accept text I-Ds; not everyone is ready/willing/able to handle XML. Enough people are conversant with XML that I think going with XML as the canonical format makes sense, but I have to be open to accepting text as well. Limiting the number of inputs is good, but no sense making everyone's life more difficult by insisting on one input and one input only. Regarding an nroffedit-like tool for XML, I agree that would be an excellent thing. I don't think one can be created until we have a better idea if/how the XML DTD is going to change, but someone with more programming experience than I should speak to that point. -Heather Flanagan, RSE From nico@cryptonector.com Wed Oct 16 08:38:23 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B561C11E82FB for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 08:38:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.981 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.981 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.004, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JdcTQ7c6a-aO for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 08:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a106.g.dreamhost.com (caiajhbdccac.dreamhost.com [208.97.132.202]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 521FA11E82FA for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 08:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a106.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a106.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D86482005D109 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 08:38:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=1l5TTtBMeQuklogEu8b6 /CysauY=; b=rbgzAzRROxAr4hOKCRawdRlb6O3LVhVXmxLN6A8I7eOc5zGNlY3M XZKirPP5ORxxEEIqaMHtBop5HYPnNE8pt4JK33MMVXC3kqmk9bw/QhcOQdrpITDO 1XJ5TNasSpEI8LnDD4J2tmFxNcOSj/yB9i4n+KJYMlvhOjQQwkBuRY0= Received: from mail-ie0-f178.google.com (mail-ie0-f178.google.com [209.85.223.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a106.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BBAC42005D108 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 08:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f178.google.com with SMTP id to1so2091564ieb.37 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 08:38:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=OA8IhVvyzPDfWAEMf7jEpO7Md5ci31ZfgKwfIoWnl2I=; b=WcmylRDei7MUBBGxLluxT4vA9rl3acCm0RbpFuf4UQoH5W30IoysqsxIIWxXX/EEm2 hdXev6AWDdRNN7rN/9KrkrAtoOvBSnykcp6dEwYmNL+8AvrJ01I1fWgH+euCHPWY7omX sci4oTURfwMZdwSpe1IWgSKEFEOGhZI4zoh6QGooE+tuX0hVIvqQN6OWf0Leoy1ziQ0o 66fDYnRkV61/7wRPQ1Iisj20UEvQWG18wchrHdSTEs7umpmFz4kTRmPfe0w/kKtD6tmF HK/bEQAnhLpwrc/zTkr5Gsk4EkBKxTjJd2YMvzwBJ8f08ticrqw5r9bLjTmOdTQInG9g fHuQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.42.29.129 with SMTP id r1mr2319896icc.44.1381937894049; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 08:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.128.225 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 08:38:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <525EAE45.8000409@rfc-editor.org> References: <5176C1CB.2040604@rfc-editor.org> <21472D57FC1CF4019DED892A@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <517ACF73.7080407@rfc-editor.org> <51800844.704@rfc-editor.org> <51801112.7090408@isode.com> <0A11A52466D194B8735813A6@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <5182CDA0.2080202@rfc-editor.org> <2671C6CDFBB59E47B64C10B3E0BD5923043D13C483@PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com> <525EAE45.8000409@rfc-editor.org> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 10:38:13 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: "Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Cc: RFC Interest , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" , "George, Wes" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Direction of the RFC Format Development effort X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:38:23 -0000 On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 10:18 AM, Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor) wrote: > Regarding an nroffedit-like tool for XML, I agree that would be an > excellent thing. I don't think one can be created until we have a > better idea if/how the XML DTD is going to change, but someone with more > programming experience than I should speak to that point. For my tool (lyx2rfc) it's no problem for it to exist now with unknown future changes to the xml2rfc DTD/Schema: any changes in it will merely require corresponding changes (or composition with new XSLs) to the XSLT that lyx2rfc is using internally. No WYSIWYG/WYSIWYM tool developers should feel held back by the possibility of changes to the xml2rfc DTD/Schema: as long as it's all XML it's all just a matter of applying appropriate XSL transformations. Nico -- From dreibh@iem.uni-due.de Wed Oct 16 08:42:03 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 001D211E82F2 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 08:42:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jgb-Ok+4sgUR for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 08:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout.uni-due.de (mailout.uni-due.de [132.252.185.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F9DD11E8303 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 08:41:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nordmarka.simula.nornet ([158.39.4.2]) (authenticated bits=0) by mailout.uni-due.de (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id r9GFfmKH029153 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 17:41:49 +0200 From: Thomas Dreibholz To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 17:41:42 +0200 Message-ID: <3459428.sUKf1B91am@nordmarka.simula.nornet> User-Agent: KMail/4.11.2 (Linux/3.8.0-31-generic; KDE/4.11.2; x86_64; ; ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart2095979.t4CWXeCbsN"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Virus-Scanned: Clam Anti Virus - http://www.clamav.net X-Spam-Scanned: SpamAssassin: 3.002004 - http://www.spamassassin.org X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 132.252.185.19 Subject: [Tools-discuss] xml2rfc bug: Sorting of referenes does not work properly X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:42:03 -0000 --nextPart2095979.t4CWXeCbsN Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi, while using xml2rfc-2.4.2, I have discovered the following bug: The following options are set: The document uses 11 Normative Reference entries. They should be number= ed 1,=20 2, 3, ... and -- of course -- be in the same order in the bibliography= .=20 However, the order in the bibliography is 1, 10, 11, 2, 3, ... . It see= ms that=20 the sorting uses ASCII characters instead of correctly using the number= s. Removing "" finally leads to the expected resu= lt. But=20 rfc_sortrefs should only have an effect if symrefs=3D"yes" (according t= o=20 http://xml.resource.org/xml2rfcFAQ.html#anchor14). --=20 Best regards / Mit freundlichen Gr=FC=DFen / Med vennlig hilsen =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Thomas Dreibholz Simula Research Laboratory Simula Innovation AS, Network Systems Group Visiting address: Martin Linges vei 17, 1364 Fornebu, Norway Mailing address: P.O.Box 134, 1325 Lysaker, Norway -----------------------------------------------------------------------= E-Mail: dreibh@simula.no Homepage: http://simula.no/people/dreibh =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --nextPart2095979.t4CWXeCbsN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAlJes7YACgkQ32BbsHYPLWWv1gCgyLd0ERULrbtM/a3A+dkPFoEb KYQAoJZ8SCoSIt73OdtyiMvkTbd1qvZs =itLe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart2095979.t4CWXeCbsN-- From julian.reschke@gmx.de Wed Oct 16 08:50:30 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED67D11E82FE for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 08:50:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.17 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.17 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.171, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uf0-ZWpLx9hN for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 08:50:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C742421F8F24 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 08:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([217.91.35.233]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx102) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MMHaL-1VP2Ac3sUP-0080gF for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 17:50:24 +0200 Message-ID: <525EB5BE.1060801@gmx.de> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 17:50:22 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <3459428.sUKf1B91am@nordmarka.simula.nornet> In-Reply-To: <3459428.sUKf1B91am@nordmarka.simula.nornet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:kod3CG3vAY96hXspHD+51EzsxDf96NrwjhbEjCHaDqv+hNWUds/ MuZGuMUlhLY+m4bfwPCcwgl1tskP4yw7/03bLhAfsJ5txYQzoZc0Pucut2T4grlSec6uVlz RRdpw6kNgVajG58jCwTVUFp2jJ/GfUAYZMyfJHAhVeid3VuC0jFe6KWdN7wNfUC6fmOkT9D 1hwYD5NY9pvJOji96kBUA== Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] xml2rfc bug: Sorting of referenes does not work properly X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:50:31 -0000 On 2013-10-16 17:41, Thomas Dreibholz wrote: > Hi, > > while using xml2rfc-2.4.2, I have discovered the following bug: > > The following options are set: > > > > The document uses 11 Normative Reference entries. They should be numbered 1, > 2, 3, ... and -- of course -- be in the same order in the bibliography. > However, the order in the bibliography is 1, 10, 11, 2, 3, ... . It seems that > the sorting uses ASCII characters instead of correctly using the numbers. > > Removing "" finally leads to the expected result. But > rfc_sortrefs should only have an effect if symrefs="yes" (according to > http://xml.resource.org/xml2rfcFAQ.html#anchor14). Are you aware that symrefs=no has been discouraged for a very long time? Best regards, Julian From dreibh@iem.uni-due.de Wed Oct 16 09:25:07 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 544C321F935A for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 09:25:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.949 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N1OxxYONPEpV for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 09:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout.uni-due.de (mailout.uni-due.de [132.252.185.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A07BD21F9CF3 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 09:24:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nordmarka.simula.nornet ([158.39.4.2]) (authenticated bits=0) by mailout.uni-due.de (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id r9GGObLu004277 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 16 Oct 2013 18:24:39 +0200 From: Thomas Dreibholz To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 18:24:33 +0200 Message-ID: <2372574.G4obaptvvy@nordmarka.simula.nornet> User-Agent: KMail/4.11.2 (Linux/3.8.0-31-generic; KDE/4.11.2; x86_64; ; ) In-Reply-To: <525EB5BE.1060801@gmx.de> References: <3459428.sUKf1B91am@nordmarka.simula.nornet> <525EB5BE.1060801@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart2053641.2fNrHMazpS"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Virus-Scanned: Clam Anti Virus - http://www.clamav.net X-Spam-Scanned: SpamAssassin: 3.002004 - http://www.spamassassin.org X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 132.252.185.19 Cc: Julian Reschke Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] xml2rfc bug: Sorting of referenes does not work properly X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 16:25:08 -0000 --nextPart2053641.2fNrHMazpS Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Onsdag 16. oktober 2013 17.50.22 skrev Julian Reschke: > On 2013-10-16 17:41, Thomas Dreibholz wrote: > > Hi, > >=20 > > while using xml2rfc-2.4.2, I have discovered the following bug: > >=20 > > The following options are set: > > > > > >=20 > > The document uses 11 Normative Reference entries. They should be nu= mbered > > 1, 2, 3, ... and -- of course -- be in the same order in the > > bibliography. However, the order in the bibliography is 1, 10, 11, = 2, 3, > > ... . It seems that the sorting uses ASCII characters instead of > > correctly using the numbers. > >=20 > > Removing "" finally leads to the expected = result.=20 > > But rfc_sortrefs should only have an effect if symrefs=3D"yes" (acc= ording > > to http://xml.resource.org/xml2rfcFAQ.html#anchor14). >=20 > Are you aware that symrefs=3Dno has been discouraged for a very long = time? I just wanted to count the number of references in the document. When I= =20 temporarily set symrefs=3Dno for that purpose, I discovered the bug. --=20 Best regards / Mit freundlichen Gr=FC=DFen / Med vennlig hilsen =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Thomas Dreibholz Simula Research Laboratory Simula Innovation AS, Network Systems Group Visiting address: Martin Linges vei 17, 1364 Fornebu, Norway Mailing address: P.O.Box 134, 1325 Lysaker, Norway -----------------------------------------------------------------------= E-Mail: dreibh@simula.no Homepage: http://simula.no/people/dreibh =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --nextPart2053641.2fNrHMazpS Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAlJevcEACgkQ32BbsHYPLWWMDwCgjgEd9XYpKxM131083RLKly0a y8wAnRgSBfmJ5GoK4hj/b5TGtDq1K5qE =QmZq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart2053641.2fNrHMazpS-- From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org Wed Oct 16 09:26:29 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 592EC11E80DE for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 09:26:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zxd9M9RMgp-4 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 09:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD8AA21F9CF3 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 09:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-0-66-41.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id r9GGQI7W060298 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 16 Oct 2013 09:26:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-0-66-41.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.41] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: <3459428.sUKf1B91am@nordmarka.simula.nornet> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 09:26:18 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <14E8BCC2-A0CF-4C8A-83B8-07F60A8C8CC9@vpnc.org> References: <3459428.sUKf1B91am@nordmarka.simula.nornet> To: Thomas Dreibholz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] xml2rfc bug: Sorting of referenes does not work properly X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 16:26:29 -0000 This should go to the xml2rfc@ietf.org mailing list. --Paul Hoffman From hallam@gmail.com Tue Oct 15 13:30:54 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7332821F9D17 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 13:30:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.589 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.589 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.010, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LEwAIRP3I-+E for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 13:30:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x233.google.com (mail-la0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::233]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95D0811E81F3 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 13:30:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-la0-f51.google.com with SMTP id hp15so3248557lab.38 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 13:30:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=cgJdihJ4ZIBiEQ+qk+tNL/bZqn8cd2ammh3r/agXOSc=; b=LFGwzU4XKYXlMpG+emlnvaIWAwhibW68gUkga8IxEY/GeZmF7f5aewjJjJ02E3gNhd ClUwmjfaxsH3kPyo7Fy23FsGJHFX6Wo5yb3OmiMRpMJXsW43BzI2KTBv5IQbCfdf+aaG 3uUq1ZS/3+kZqsore5D3HFsVj6zS0BbXx6q9Z6T4cwKuZWuCNH/xnQO+uxnYO5Z/x9jS lJTL1cB77/foXLnSFl9GQznKOquSjTw1cLV4kxQA7wKA1KrAyUgISw6/60GpsXR4P4Ps 8laDNj1QrZwMKibT24HQdvzeDsbNvEAvIDZehBUOypsLoKTZq8J0+txeTxmi7MxzmFPn onRA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.13.72 with SMTP id f8mr3192271lbc.40.1381869050571; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 13:30:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.148.165 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Oct 2013 13:30:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <525D9BE7.6080308@dcrocker.net> References: <5176C1CB.2040604@rfc-editor.org> <21472D57FC1CF4019DED892A@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <517ACF73.7080407@rfc-editor.org> <51800844.704@rfc-editor.org> <51801112.7090408@isode.com> <0A11A52466D194B8735813A6@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <5182CDA0.2080202@rfc-editor.org> <2671C6CDFBB59E47B64C10B3E0BD5923043D13C483@PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com> <525D9BE7.6080308@dcrocker.net> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 16:30:50 -0400 Message-ID: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker To: Dave Crocker Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3ee6ae2b39404e8cd75c9 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 10:10:04 -0700 Cc: RFC Interest , "Heather Flanagan \(RFC Series Editor\)" , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" , "George, Wes" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Direction of the RFC Format Development effort X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 20:30:54 -0000 --001a11c3ee6ae2b39404e8cd75c9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I don't need pure WISYWIG but I do need an editing format in which I can remember the tags without having to constantly go to the web to read the reference. Which is why I now use HTML. I wrote a tool that converts from either XML2RFC or HTML source and outputs either format or traditional plaintext. The source is up on Sourceforge. I am currently tweaking the tool as I discover features of things like Google Drive which will output HTML but cannot generate DL tags. The reason I would like to be able to use Google Drive is that it then becomes trivial for two authors to work on the same doc at the same time. It would be useful if the xml2rfc tool generated HTML in a way that was not 'lossy'. If the tool generates

headings rather than

tags with style sheet links it is much easier to recover structure. --001a11c3ee6ae2b39404e8cd75c9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I don't need pure WISYWIG but I do need an editing for= mat in which I can remember the tags without having to constantly go to the= web to read the reference.

Which is why I now use HTML.= I wrote a tool that converts from either XML2RFC or HTML source and output= s either format or traditional plaintext. The source is up on Sourceforge.<= /div>


I am currently tweaking the tool as I di= scover features of things like Google Drive which will output HTML but cann= ot generate DL tags. The reason I would like to be able to use Google Drive= is that it then becomes trivial for two authors to work on the same doc at= the same time.

It would be useful if the xml2rfc tool generated HTML i= n a way that was not 'lossy'. If the tool generates <H1> head= ings rather than <p> tags with style sheet links it is much easier to= recover structure.
--001a11c3ee6ae2b39404e8cd75c9-- From dreibh@simula.no Wed Oct 16 05:57:39 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A459211E81CE for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 05:57:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fLq75MeeYbMa for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 05:57:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ea0-f172.google.com (mail-ea0-f172.google.com [209.85.215.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D2ED11E81D6 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 05:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ea0-f172.google.com with SMTP id r16so343476ead.17 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 05:57:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:organization :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=8HYVUFTQ6a6s+fb0fRSf5k5LWLkFBBTYsMsNJ9WlsLg=; b=NEfSSo0mWsdURrJKIu87VjVkWSko2FaWVUaA/OMN0AKVBRmk5hTW98Uc+A2ArUyg62 /Adh+A7KdeQ+eHdT8BCGjP2DtqcXWowuiTeJ3TNOmRl/ldGUpD8CyxVwiyj0EaJod8ZF 4hZSeEvGXXjU1gZaAHgO7IHnaZp5L9TSnfYm9Ir9XeUiRFHYLDhKGekCn6CyRgj6WlaM Bp/OdlpLDt98nQ7nP5WVq2z9mklK3MbBdawJEIuRW0+p+7tDtwfkYaD0BEbVpXha0cgL OFRUh1jSJxinG+5LQcoIMIGrUmeOKMG8WcaehSnLBkfXDCPwOAsUtWg23jOUuGZI/evO t+cA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkJPexiAuIjWXDXB3bbgm4tkhcgALuKvC+YlEMdb8hZP8rnjHokrBLZ4oWjnvD77yDJ775g X-Received: by 10.14.177.199 with SMTP id d47mr4448996eem.14.1381928248483; Wed, 16 Oct 2013 05:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nordmarka.simula.nornet ([2001:700:4100:201::33]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id m54sm179328388eex.2.1969.12.31.16.00.00 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 16 Oct 2013 05:57:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Thomas Dreibholz To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 14:57:22 +0200 Message-ID: <5961324.8diOZ4BKhc@nordmarka.simula.nornet> Organization: Simula Research Laboratory User-Agent: KMail/4.11.2 (Linux/3.8.0-31-generic; KDE/4.11.2; x86_64; ; ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart2584698.GuX4hVC3rk"; micalg="pgp-sha1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 10:10:04 -0700 Subject: [Tools-discuss] xml2rfc bug: Sorting of referenes does not work properly X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 12:57:39 -0000 --nextPart2584698.GuX4hVC3rk Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi, while using xml2rfc-2.4.2, I have discovered the following bug: The following options are set: The document uses 11 Normative Reference entries. They should be number= ed 1,=20 2, 3, ... and -- of course -- be in the same order in the bibliography= .=20 However, the order in the bibliography is 1, 10, 11, 2, 3, ... . It see= ms that=20 the sorting uses ASCII characters instead of correctly using the number= s. Removing "" finally leads to the expected resu= lt. But=20 rfc_sortrefs should only have an effect if symrefs=3D"yes" (according t= o=20 http://xml.resource.org/xml2rfcFAQ.html#anchor14). --=20 Best regards / Mit freundlichen Gr=FC=DFen / Med vennlig hilsen =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Thomas Dreibholz Simula Research Laboratory Simula Innovation AS, Network Systems Group Visiting address: Martin Linges vei 17, 1364 Fornebu, Norway Mailing address: P.O.Box 134, 1325 Lysaker, Norway -----------------------------------------------------------------------= E-Mail: dreibh@simula.no Homepage: http://simula.no/people/dreibh =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --nextPart2584698.GuX4hVC3rk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAlJejTIACgkQ32BbsHYPLWUWvACgs54Vv+o/IZ7p21uYztyUPgQ5 sHoAoLkzMP8ikoOdT3f62w9X0GQrSdgJ =qdNV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart2584698.GuX4hVC3rk-- From stpeter@stpeter.im Fri Oct 18 10:07:15 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3EB021F9DDE for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 10:07:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.351 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.351 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.248, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 39863gR1jcCf for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 10:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BDC311E831E for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 10:06:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sjc-vpn3-1120.cisco.com (unknown [128.107.239.233]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 789044100F; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 11:12:40 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <52616A83.3010006@stpeter.im> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 11:06:11 -0600 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130801 Thunderbird/17.0.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Tools-discuss] non-ASCII characters in list archives X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 17:07:16 -0000 The mailman archives don't show non-ASCII characters correctly. For example, compare the following archives of the same message: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/precis/current/msg00543.html vs. http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2013-October/028099.html Both systems (ietf.org and jabber.org) are running mailman, so presumably there's a configuration difference here. I'm happy to help debug. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ From adam@nostrum.com Fri Oct 18 10:31:10 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7236011E819D for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 10:31:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.411 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.411 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.188, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fuzydOQS58r3 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 10:31:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shaman.nostrum.com (nostrum-pt.tunnel.tserv2.fmt.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f03:267::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57A9D11E8273 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 10:31:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orochi.roach.at (99-152-145-110.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.145.110]) (authenticated bits=0) by shaman.nostrum.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r9IHV8cG081908 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 18 Oct 2013 12:31:08 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) Message-ID: <52617057.7040401@nostrum.com> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 12:31:03 -0500 From: Adam Roach User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Saint-Andre , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <52616A83.3010006@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <52616A83.3010006@stpeter.im> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060707030206040203090505" Received-SPF: pass (shaman.nostrum.com: 99.152.145.110 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] non-ASCII characters in list archives X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 17:31:10 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060707030206040203090505 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/18/13 12:06, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > The mailman archives don't show non-ASCII characters correctly. > > For example, compare the following archives of the same message: > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/precis/current/msg00543.html > > vs. > > http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2013-October/028099.html > > Both systems (ietf.org and jabber.org) are running mailman, so > presumably there's a configuration difference here. I'm happy to help debug. > Interestingly, the jabber.org HTTP server serves this up with a content type of "text/html; charset=iso-8859-1", while the ietf.org site simply says "text/html" There's also been some transformation here, as the raw source from jabber reads: " in my example, a nickname of "ΦΙΛΟΣ ΜΟΙ"" where the ietf version reads " in my example, a nickname of "ÎÎÎÎÎ ÎÎÎ"" Now, If I read things correctly, it looks like Peter's email client sent this message with a content type of "text/plain," but no indication of character encoding. I think it's debatable what a recipient should do under these circumstances. From where I'm sitting, it looks like the IETF and Jabber servers made different arbitrary guesses about which character encoding Peter was trying to use, and the Jabber server got lucky. I'm willing to put large money on the proposition that I could form an equally ambiguous email that would archive "correctly" on the IETF site and be corrupted beyond use on the Jabber site. I'm almost as confident that I could find an email client that does this by default (or, at least, in a commonly used configuration). /a --------------060707030206040203090505 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 10/18/13 12:06, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
The mailman archives don't show non-ASCII characters correctly.

For example, compare the following archives of the same message:

http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/precis/current/msg00543.html

vs.

http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2013-October/028099.html

Both systems (ietf.org and jabber.org) are running mailman, so
presumably there's a configuration difference here. I'm happy to help debug.

Interestingly, the jabber.org HTTP server serves this up with a content type of "text/html; charset=iso-8859-1", while the ietf.org site simply says "text/html"

There's also been some transformation here, as the raw source from jabber reads: " in my example, a nickname of &quot;&#934;&#921;&#923;&#927;&#931; &#924;&#927;&#921;&quot;" where the ietf version reads " in my example, a nickname of &quot;&#xCE;&#xCE;&#xCE;&#xCE;&#xCE; &#xCE;&#xCE;&#xCE;&quot;"

Now, If I read things correctly, it looks like Peter's email client sent this message with a content type of "text/plain," but no indication of character encoding. I think it's debatable what a recipient should do under these circumstances.

From where I'm sitting, it looks like the IETF and Jabber servers made different arbitrary guesses about which character encoding Peter was trying to use, and the Jabber server got lucky. I'm willing to put large money on the proposition that I could form an equally ambiguous email that would archive "correctly" on the IETF site and be corrupted beyond use on the Jabber site. I'm almost as confident that I could find an email client that does this by default (or, at least, in a commonly used configuration).

/a
--------------060707030206040203090505-- From stpeter@stpeter.im Fri Oct 18 11:03:19 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 053AF11E8298 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 11:03:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.359 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.359 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.240, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pB4mEbnP+wBE for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 11:03:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stpeter.im (mailhost.stpeter.im [207.210.219.225]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF22C11E825D for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 11:03:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sjc-vpn3-1120.cisco.com (unknown [128.107.239.234]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by stpeter.im (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 382054100F; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 12:09:41 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <526177E0.5070200@stpeter.im> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 12:03:12 -0600 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130801 Thunderbird/17.0.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adam Roach References: <52616A83.3010006@stpeter.im> <52617057.7040401@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <52617057.7040401@nostrum.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] non-ASCII characters in list archives X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 18:03:19 -0000 On 10/18/13 11:31 AM, Adam Roach wrote: > On 10/18/13 12:06, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> The mailman archives don't show non-ASCII characters correctly. >> >> For example, compare the following archives of the same message: >> >> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/precis/current/msg00543.html >> >> vs. >> >> http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2013-October/028099.html >> >> Both systems (ietf.org and jabber.org) are running mailman, so >> presumably there's a configuration difference here. I'm happy to help debug. >> > > Interestingly, the jabber.org HTTP server serves this up with a content > type of "text/html; charset=iso-8859-1", while the ietf.org site simply > says "text/html" > > There's also been some transformation here, as the raw source from > jabber reads: " in my example, a nickname of > "ΦΙΛΟΣ ΜΟΙ"" where the > ietf version reads " in my example, a nickname of > "ÎÎÎÎÎ ÎÎÎ"" > > Now, If I read things correctly, it looks like Peter's email client sent > this message with a content type of "text/plain," but no indication of > character encoding. I think it's debatable what a recipient should do > under these circumstances. > > From where I'm sitting, it looks like the IETF and Jabber servers made > different arbitrary guesses about which character encoding Peter was > trying to use, and the Jabber server got lucky. I'm willing to put large > money on the proposition that I could form an equally ambiguous email > that would archive "correctly" on the IETF site and be corrupted beyond > use on the Jabber site. I'm almost as confident that I could find an > email client that does this by default (or, at least, in a commonly used > configuration). Most probably. I'll test further. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ From derhoermi@gmx.net Fri Oct 18 11:08:49 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CEC511E82A0 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 11:08:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.36 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.36 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.239, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 49W2z1nDCd3w for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 11:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A59111E8298 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 11:08:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netb.Speedport_W_700V ([91.35.15.142]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 0Ln8gj-1WDyDj2mnF-00hNSK for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2013 20:08:39 +0200 From: Bjoern Hoehrmann To: Adam Roach Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 20:08:42 +0200 Message-ID: References: <52616A83.3010006@stpeter.im> <52617057.7040401@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <52617057.7040401@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:cYChIUqSFsdnQATylw69IyHvaSns+WgXgMOcNh95cpaWwz16UXY 74oGRH4omDL1ZkHQgcI9jVW7mcoi7gmIKrCO74wuTGrMhgtS8eJ0wars7tnGgZp5nXj9k31 iRlJxU7efTljNGYY77V6gQTdNHmhCzW0wC3hGZ+6/iMTy4ZG0tV3WlilnkxxoccPRVX1jZN lt/EUJSUXbSs1qfPjXFuQ== Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] non-ASCII characters in list archives X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 18:08:49 -0000 * Adam Roach wrote: >On 10/18/13 12:06, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> The mailman archives don't show non-ASCII characters correctly. >> >> For example, compare the following archives of the same message: >> >> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/precis/current/msg00543.html >Interestingly, the jabber.org HTTP server serves this up with a content >type of "text/html; charset=iso-8859-1", while the ietf.org site simply >says "text/html" It seems the HTML content also does not declare a character encoding like through a `` element. That is or at least used to be a XSS vulnerability because you could make some browsers interpret the data as UTF-7-encoded data and thereby smuggle in `