From nobody Fri May 8 06:48:16 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 766821A1A07 for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 06:48:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.674 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.674 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DEAR_SOMETHING=1.973, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xo9l2WiiKyeM for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 06:48:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA1DF1A1A4C for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 06:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id F13B02092B for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 09:48:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend1 ([10.202.2.160]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 08 May 2015 09:48:09 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h= content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=mesmtp; bh=rG9gL08JNba6a61O PmZbZUvmmWo=; b=t6dOvRLQz4PFMOom2MBl8IqTAkRxYYNC5cay/HbLAigu6SXM agI2CyvNqCxH5mor5Eu+utDKyb46SHNorPj6bV9SqW17sl9YFjeJoJL3+M/evhxh Op21xBXe1Q0roSPAlSskb52Kjpdxz/gdjfx6ODtBLph+vE83tgYMtwg+MyQ= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:message-id :mime-version:references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s= smtpout; bh=rG9gL08JNba6a61OPmZbZUvmmWo=; b=CxFiJqDcQnGyNMMe7HhX JDCDatCxo6fpmcr1fQUFsBR+ewLAY28gSzJEPU1cjzm1h2XLqAu+nIdUvb5Epefy E99nYlDU0BdInRHy3gKpr/UJ+Ux6CrkvrFJaQ09CEnaPf3dO0xQBciuf7Zk5z3XO P7IcFQfMb21J1NLI7nCeLHM= X-Sasl-enc: LKprfTvpwCU32QoPEKmvd9Us7gKOmejCDOoD2BGa+RF9 1431092888 Received: from sjc-alcoop-8817.cisco.com (unknown [128.107.241.190]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id D4FA1C00015 for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 09:48:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Alissa Cooper Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5F20925F-F0D7-417F-9788-3FA4CE192D5B" Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 06:48:06 -0700 References: <0fb6887f5f964458a8f8e4c1d8db7fe2@TUCM03.TUECSP.UNICC.ORG> To: video-codec@ietf.org Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: Subject: [video-codec] LS from ITU-T SG 16 X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 13:48:14 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_5F20925F-F0D7-417F-9788-3FA4CE192D5B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 The IESG has received a liaison statement from ITU-T SG 16 concerning = the netvc chartering effort: = . I=92ve begun drafting a = response and would like your input before I bring this back to the IESG. = Please suggest edits/additions: --- We are writing in response to the liaison statement received from ITU-T = SG 16 requesting clarification about the goals the proposed Internet = Video Codec (NETVC) working group. The NETVC charter uses the word = =93competitive=94 in the sense of =93comparable." That is, the goal of = the working group is to produce a codec whose quality and efficiency are = comparable to the video codecs in widespread use at the time when the = NETVC work is finalized. As the liaison statement notes, there are many concurrent ongoing = efforts to develop video codecs, and the NETVC work would merely be one = additional such effort. We do not view the proposed NETVC work as = harmful for interoperability, but rather as helpful, considering the = fact that at present the licensing environment creates barriers to full = interoperability in many cases.=20 --- Thanks, Alissa Begin forwarded message: > From: "TSB SG16 Secretariat, ITU" > Subject: COM 16-LS 156 - Outgoing LS from ITU-T SG 16 (agreed by = correspondence, 4 May 2015) > Date: May 4, 2015 at 8:11:34 AM PDT > To: "'statements@ietf.org'" , "iesg@ietf.org" = > Cc: "twiegand@ieee.org" , "Naito, Yushi \(TIES\)" = , "jill.boyce@intel.com" = , 'Gary Sullivan' , = "Campos, Simao" >=20 > Dear Sir/Madam, > Kindly find attached the Liaison Statement COM16 - LS 156, with title: = =93LS on call for comments on an IETF WG on Internet Video Codec (netvc) = [to IETF IESG]=94, agreed by the ITU-T SG16 management by correspondence = on 4 May 2015. >=20 > Best regards, >=20 > =20 > Rosa Angeles-Leon De Vivero > Administrative Assistant for ITU-T Study Group 16, IPTV-GSI, JCA-IPTV = & IRG-AVA > International Telecommunication Union > Place des Nations, CH-1211 Geneva, Switzerland > Tel : +41 22 730 5445 > tsbsg16@itu.int > tsbiptv@itu.int =20 > www.itu.int & www.itu150.org >=20 > =20 > =20 --Apple-Mail=_5F20925F-F0D7-417F-9788-3FA4CE192D5B Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_EC6B2085-19DB-4EEB-8C7B-5A7106ECDDAA" --Apple-Mail=_EC6B2085-19DB-4EEB-8C7B-5A7106ECDDAA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 The = IESG has received a liaison statement from ITU-T SG 16 concerning the = netvc chartering effort: <https://datatracker.ie= tf.org/liaison/1399/>. I=92ve begun drafting a response and would = like your input before I bring this back to the IESG. Please suggest = edits/additions:

---

We are = writing in response to the liaison statement received from ITU-T SG 16 = requesting clarification about the goals the proposed Internet Video = Codec (NETVC) working group. The NETVC charter uses the word = =93competitive=94 in the sense of =93comparable." That is, the goal of = the working group is to produce a codec whose quality and efficiency are = comparable to the video codecs in widespread use at the time when the = NETVC work is finalized.

As the liaison statement = notes, there are many concurrent ongoing efforts to develop video = codecs, and the NETVC work would merely be one additional such effort. = We do not view the proposed NETVC work as harmful for interoperability, = but rather as helpful, considering the fact that at present the = licensing environment creates barriers to full interoperability in many = cases. 

---

Thanks,=
Alissa


Begin forwarded = message:

From: = "TSB SG16 = Secretariat, ITU" <tsbsg16@itu.int>
Subject: COM 16-LS 156 - Outgoing LS from = ITU-T SG 16 (agreed by correspondence, 4 May = 2015)
Date: = May 4, 2015 at = 8:11:34 AM PDT

Dear Sir/Madam,
Kindly find attached the Liaison Statement = COM16 - LS 156, with title: =93LS on call for comments on an IETF WG on = Internet Video Codec (netvc) [to IETF IESG]=94, agreed by the ITU-T SG16 = management by correspondence on 4 May 2015.

Best regards,

 
Rosa = Angeles-Leon De Vivero
Administrative Assistant for ITU-T Study Group 16, IPTV-GSI, = JCA-IPTV & IRG-AVA
International = Telecommunication Union
Place = des Nations, CH-1211 Geneva, Switzerland
Tel : +41 22 730 = 5445
tsbsg16@itu.int
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--Apple-Mail=_EC6B2085-19DB-4EEB-8C7B-5A7106ECDDAA-- --Apple-Mail=_5F20925F-F0D7-417F-9788-3FA4CE192D5B-- From nobody Fri May 8 07:10:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E436C1A1B5D for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 07:10:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.8 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WrHIuG_KUiVc for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 07:09:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (aso-006-i443.relay.mailchannels.net [23.91.64.124]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F2A31A040B for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 07:09:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender-Id: wwwh|x-authuser|randell@jesup.org Received: from r2-chicago.webserversystems.com (ip-10-220-9-73.us-west-2.compute.internal [10.220.9.73]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id EDCC1121543 for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 14:09:54 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: wwwh|x-authuser|randell@jesup.org Received: from r2-chicago.webserversystems.com (r2-chicago.webserversystems.com [10.83.15.107]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.4.8); Fri, 08 May 2015 14:09:55 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: wwwh|x-authuser|randell@jesup.org X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: wwwh X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1431094195164:3050973406 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1431094195163 Received: from pool-173-49-141-196.phlapa.fios.verizon.net ([173.49.141.196]:58220 helo=[192.168.1.12]) by r2-chicago.webserversystems.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1YqiyQ-0008WG-4h for video-codec@ietf.org; Fri, 08 May 2015 09:09:54 -0500 Message-ID: <554CC3C0.7060903@jesup.org> Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 10:10:08 -0400 From: Randell Jesup User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: video-codec@ietf.org References: <0fb6887f5f964458a8f8e4c1d8db7fe2@TUCM03.TUECSP.UNICC.ORG> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------050605040005060903060905" X-AuthUser: randell@jesup.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [video-codec] LS from ITU-T SG 16 X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 14:10:01 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050605040005060903060905 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/8/2015 9:48 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote: > The IESG has received a liaison statement from ITU-T SG 16 concerning=20 > the netvc chartering effort:=20 > . I=92ve begun drafting a=20 > response and would like your input before I bring this back to the=20 > IESG. Please suggest edits/additions: > > --- > > We are writing in response to the liaison statement received from=20 > ITU-T SG 16 requesting clarification about the goals the proposed=20 > Internet Video Codec (NETVC) working group. The NETVC charter uses the=20 > word =93competitive=94 in the sense of =93comparable." That is, the goa= l of=20 > the working group is to produce a codec whose quality and efficiency=20 > are comparable to the video codecs in widespread use at the time when=20 > the NETVC work is finalized. I'd wonder if we should reply to their statement about "broad use" being=20 desirable but not different than other standardization efforts; they=20 totally ignore the realities of licensing and a major driver for the=20 effort (perhaps not surprisingly given who they are). (I realize this=20 is also mentioned indirectly in your following paragraph; perhaps we=20 don't need to expand on it.) > > As the liaison statement notes, there are many concurrent ongoing=20 > efforts to develop video codecs, and the NETVC work would merely be=20 > one additional such effort. We do not view the proposed NETVC work as=20 > harmful for interoperability, but rather as helpful, considering the=20 > fact that at present the licensing environment creates barriers to=20 > full interoperability in many cases. > --=20 Randell Jesup -- rjesup a t mozilla d o t com Please please please don't email randell-ietf@jesup.org! Way too much sp= am --------------050605040005060903060905 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 5/8/2015 9:48 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote:
The IESG has received a liaison statement from ITU-T SG 16 concerning the netvc chartering effort: <https://datat= racker.ietf.org/liaison/1399/>. I=92ve begun drafting a response and would like your input before I bring this back to the IESG. Please suggest edits/additions:

---

We are writing in response to the liaison statement received from ITU-T SG 16 requesting clarification about the goals the proposed Internet Video Codec (NETVC) working group. The NETVC charter uses the word =93competitive=94 in the sense of =93comparable." That is, the goal of the working group is to produce a codec whose quality and efficiency are comparable to the video codecs in widespread use at the time when the NETVC work is finalized.

I'd wonder if we should reply to their statement about "broad use" being desirable but not different than other standardization efforts; they totally ignore the realities of licensing and a major driver for the effort (perhaps not surprisingly given who they are).=A0 (I realize this is also mentioned indirectly in your following paragraph; perhaps we don't need to expand on it.)


As the liaison statement notes, there are many concurrent ongoing efforts to develop video codecs, and the NETVC work would merely be one additional such effort. We do not view the proposed NETVC work as harmful for interoperability, but rather as helpful, considering the fact that at present the licensing environment creates barriers to full interoperability in many cases.=A0

--=20
Randell Jesup -- rjesup a t mozilla d o t com
Please please please don't email randell-ietf@jesup.org!  Way too=
 much spam
--------------050605040005060903060905-- From nobody Fri May 8 07:24:49 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30FE11A1DE2 for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 07:24:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, HOST_MISMATCH_COM=0.311, SPF_FAIL=0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ejvzKA93cCUz for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 07:24:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.mozilla.org (mx1.scl3.mozilla.com [63.245.214.155]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 683391A6EDA for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 07:24:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost6.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mx1.mail.scl3.mozilla.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9203C1C84; Fri, 8 May 2015 14:24:45 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mozilla.org Received: from smtp.mozilla.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mx1.mail.scl3.mozilla.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id khEhw7UDUYpm; Fri, 8 May 2015 14:24:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [172.17.0.60] (50-78-100-113-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.78.100.113]) (Authenticated sender: tterriberry@mozilla.com) by mx1.mail.scl3.mozilla.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CE49CC1C74; Fri, 8 May 2015 14:24:34 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <554CC71E.5000507@xiph.org> Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 07:24:30 -0700 From: "Timothy B. Terriberry" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:29.0) Gecko/20100101 SeaMonkey/2.26 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alissa Cooper , video-codec@ietf.org References: <0fb6887f5f964458a8f8e4c1d8db7fe2@TUCM03.TUECSP.UNICC.ORG> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [video-codec] LS from ITU-T SG 16 X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 14:24:48 -0000 Alissa Cooper wrote: > As the liaison statement notes, there are many concurrent ongoing > efforts to develop video codecs, and the NETVC work would merely be one > additional such effort. We do not view the proposed NETVC work as > harmful for interoperability, but rather as helpful, considering the > fact that at present the licensing environment creates barriers to full > interoperability in many cases. I think the important point is that there are *no* existing standardization efforts with the simultaneous goals of best-in-class performance *and* royalty-free licensing (however we choose to phrase that). From nobody Fri May 8 07:47:21 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D5E41A8877 for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 07:47:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hwFmktGnd4XT for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 07:47:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06FA41A8862 for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 07:47:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Orochi.local (rrcs-24-173-40-58.sw.biz.rr.com [24.173.40.58]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.1/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id t48ElF2G088536 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 8 May 2015 09:47:15 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host rrcs-24-173-40-58.sw.biz.rr.com [24.173.40.58] claimed to be Orochi.local Message-ID: <554CCC73.1070707@nostrum.com> Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 09:47:15 -0500 From: Adam Roach User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Timothy B. Terriberry" , Alissa Cooper , video-codec@ietf.org References: <0fb6887f5f964458a8f8e4c1d8db7fe2@TUCM03.TUECSP.UNICC.ORG> <554CC71E.5000507@xiph.org> In-Reply-To: <554CC71E.5000507@xiph.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020001070206000508040705" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [video-codec] LS from ITU-T SG 16 X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 14:47:20 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020001070206000508040705 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 5/8/15 09:24, Timothy B. Terriberry wrote: > Alissa Cooper wrote: >> As the liaison statement notes, there are many concurrent ongoing >> efforts to develop video codecs, and the NETVC work would merely be one >> additional such effort. We do not view the proposed NETVC work as >> harmful for interoperability, but rather as helpful, considering the >> fact that at present the licensing environment creates barriers to full >> interoperability in many cases. > > I think the important point is that there are *no* existing > standardization efforts with the simultaneous goals of best-in-class > performance *and* royalty-free licensing (however we choose to phrase > that). I agree that this is the elephant in the room. The dismissal in the LS of this aspect of the work uses sleight-of-hand to replace "royalty free" with a phrase that means something very different. This either misses the point of the NETVC effort, or feigns ignorance. In either case, I believe a clarification on this specific point is appropriate. Perhaps something like: "One key distinction of the NETVC work as compared to other efforts to create high-quality codecs is a differentiation between 'licensing terms that would enable broad use,' which is a subjective distinction, and 'royalty-free licensing terms,' which is a factual one. Conversely, a distinction from existing efforts to create royalty-free codecs is the explicit goal of achieving quality on par with modern, state-of-the-art codecs." /a --------------020001070206000508040705 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 5/8/15 09:24, Timothy B. Terriberry wrote:
Alissa Cooper wrote:
As the liaison statement notes, there are many concurrent ongoing
efforts to develop video codecs, and the NETVC work would merely be one
additional such effort. We do not view the proposed NETVC work as
harmful for interoperability, but rather as helpful, considering the
fact that at present the licensing environment creates barriers to full
interoperability in many cases.

I think the important point is that there are *no* existing standardization efforts with the simultaneous goals of best-in-class performance *and* royalty-free licensing (however we choose to phrase that).

I agree that this is the elephant in the room. The dismissal in the LS of this aspect of the work uses sleight-of-hand to replace "royalty free" with a phrase that means something very different. This either misses the point of the NETVC effort, or feigns ignorance. In either case, I believe a clarification on this specific point is appropriate.

Perhaps something like: "One key distinction of the NETVC work as compared to other efforts to create high-quality codecs is a differentiation between 'licensing terms that would enable broad use,' which is a subjective distinction, and 'royalty-free licensing terms,' which is a factual one. Conversely, a distinction from existing efforts to create royalty-free codecs is the explicit goal of achieving quality on par with modern, state-of-the-art codecs."

/a
--------------020001070206000508040705-- From nobody Fri May 8 08:50:34 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E78801A90EE for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 08:50:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cq6q7t-SGsXS for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 08:50:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpida-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D16B1AC3B0 for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 08:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.42]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 463918ABF07A9; Fri, 8 May 2015 15:50:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr712wxchhub03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.74]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id t48FoFAX023407 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 8 May 2015 17:50:15 +0200 Received: from FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.7.203]) by FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Fri, 8 May 2015 17:50:15 +0200 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: Adam Roach , "Timothy B. Terriberry" , Alissa Cooper , "video-codec@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [video-codec] LS from ITU-T SG 16 Thread-Index: AQHQiZWv2vqkPE+5l0WMEfFq8u4Qsp1yALEAgAAGXICAAC4ZsA== Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 15:50:14 +0000 Message-ID: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B697112FA@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <0fb6887f5f964458a8f8e4c1d8db7fe2@TUCM03.TUECSP.UNICC.ORG> <554CC71E.5000507@xiph.org> <554CCC73.1070707@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <554CCC73.1070707@nostrum.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.40] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B697112FAFR712WXCHMBA11z_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [video-codec] LS from ITU-T SG 16 X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 15:50:33 -0000 --_000_949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B697112FAFR712WXCHMBA11z_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I fail to see how any of the comments made so far actually help. First, there seems to be a perception amongst responders that somehow the I= TU is there develop royalty costing codecs and nothing could be further fro= m the truth. Both ITU and IETF set up processes to deal with IPR on contrib= utions made to their respective organisations, and they are not that disimi= lar. Indeed the creation of both the 3GPP and 3GPP2 organisations was in so= me respect the failure of ITU to deal with the embedded IPR problem and dev= elop appropriate standards as a result. It is perfectly possible that IETF = could have developed H.264 with all of its embedded IPR under the current I= ETF rules. So trying to draw a line like "royalty free" does not really hel= p. Secondly, IETF does not have to justify to ITU what work it does, in the sa= me way as ITU does not need to justify to IETF what work it does. This is n= ot saying cooperation is bad, but IETF is an SDO in its own right, and it d= oes whatever work its members decide is best for the community it serves. W= hile I would prefer not to have multiple video codecs in the market, ultima= tely the market decides. So any response IETF makes should concentrate on what we want or need from = ITU (and other external bodies), and persuading them to support our needs. = Some of this is already written into the draft charter. I would identify: 1) The IETF needs to gain access to the accumulated level of expertise i= n existing IPR, in order to identify that their solution has avoided as muc= h as possible. Much of that expertise exists outside IETF, and in bodies su= ch as ISO/IEC JTC1/SC29. 2) I believe there needs to be cooperation on methods of assessment. The= crowd sourcing model used by IETF on its audio codec is totally alien to a= nything used by ITU, and I guess similar issues apply in reverse. The marke= t will therefore never be able to compare results to decide which is better= from a performance perspective. regards Keith ________________________________ From: video-codec [mailto:video-codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adam R= oach Sent: 08 May 2015 15:47 To: Timothy B. Terriberry; Alissa Cooper; video-codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [video-codec] LS from ITU-T SG 16 On 5/8/15 09:24, Timothy B. Terriberry wrote: Alissa Cooper wrote: As the liaison statement notes, there are many concurrent ongoing efforts to develop video codecs, and the NETVC work would merely be one additional such effort. We do not view the proposed NETVC work as harmful for interoperability, but rather as helpful, considering the fact that at present the licensing environment creates barriers to full interoperability in many cases. I think the important point is that there are *no* existing standardization= efforts with the simultaneous goals of best-in-class performance *and* roy= alty-free licensing (however we choose to phrase that). I agree that this is the elephant in the room. The dismissal in the LS of t= his aspect of the work uses sleight-of-hand to replace "royalty free" with = a phrase that means something very different. This either misses the point = of the NETVC effort, or feigns ignorance. In either case, I believe a clari= fication on this specific point is appropriate. Perhaps something like: "One key distinction of the NETVC work as compared = to other efforts to create high-quality codecs is a differentiation between= 'licensing terms that would enable broad use,' which is a subjective disti= nction, and 'royalty-free licensing terms,' which is a factual one. Convers= ely, a distinction from existing efforts to create royalty-free codecs is t= he explicit goal of achieving quality on par with modern, state-of-the-art = codecs." /a --_000_949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B697112FAFR712WXCHMBA11z_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I fail to see how any of the comments made so far actually h= elp.
 
First, there seems to be a perception amongst responders tha= t somehow the ITU is there develop royalty costing codecs and nothing could= be further from the truth. Both ITU and IETF set up processes to deal with IPR on contributions made to their resp= ective organisations, and they are not that disimilar. Indeed the creation = of both the 3GPP and 3GPP2 organisations was in some respect the failure of= ITU to deal with the embedded IPR problem and develop appropriate standards as a result. It is perfectly pos= sible that IETF could have developed H.264 with all of its embedded IPR und= er the current IETF rules. So trying to draw a line like "royalty free= " does not really help.
 
Secondly, IETF does not have to justify to ITU what work it = does, in the same way as ITU does not need to justify to IETF what work it = does. This is not saying cooperation is bad, but IETF is an SDO in its own right, and it does whatever work its me= mbers decide is best for the community it serves. While I would prefer not = to have multiple video codecs in the market, ultimately the market decides.=
 
So any response IETF makes should concentrate on what we wan= t or need from ITU (and other external bodies), and persuading them to supp= ort our needs. Some of this is already written into the draft charter. I would identify:
 
1)    The IETF needs to gain access to the ac= cumulated level of expertise in existing IPR, in order to identify that the= ir solution has avoided as much as possible. Much of that expertise exists outside IETF, and in bodies such as ISO/IEC JTC1/SC29.
 
2)    I believe there needs to be cooperation= on methods of assessment. The crowd sourcing model used by IETF on its aud= io codec is totally alien to anything used by ITU, and I guess similar issues apply in reverse. The market will therefore never b= e able to compare results to decide which is better from a performance pers= pective.
 
regards
 
Keith

From: video-codec [mailto:video-cod= ec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adam Roach
Sent: 08 May 2015 15:47
To: Timothy B. Terriberry; Alissa Cooper; video-codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [video-codec] LS from ITU-T SG 16

On 5/8/15 09:24, Timothy B. Terriberry wrote= :
Alissa Coo= per wrote:
As the liaison statement notes, there are many co= ncurrent ongoing
efforts to develop video codecs, and the NETVC work would merely be one additional such effort. We do not view the proposed NETVC work as
harmful for interoperability, but rather as helpful, considering the
fact that at present the licensing environment creates barriers to full interoperability in many cases.

I think the important point is that there are *no* existing standardization= efforts with the simultaneous goals of best-in-class performance *and* roy= alty-free licensing (however we choose to phrase that).

I agree that this is the elephant in the room. The dismissal in the LS of t= his aspect of the work uses sleight-of-hand to replace "royalty free&q= uot; with a phrase that means something very different. This either misses = the point of the NETVC effort, or feigns ignorance. In either case, I believe a clarification on this specific point is approp= riate.

Perhaps something like: "One key distinction of the NETVC work as comp= ared to other efforts to create high-quality codecs is a differentiation be= tween 'licensing terms that would enable broad use,' which is a subjective = distinction, and 'royalty-free licensing terms,' which is a factual one. Conversely, a distinction from existing ef= forts to create royalty-free codecs is the explicit goal of achieving quali= ty on par with modern, state-of-the-art codecs."

/a
--_000_949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B697112FAFR712WXCHMBA11z_-- From nobody Fri May 8 12:32:21 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 088E21B2EB2 for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 12:32:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TAU7_p9XrExi for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 12:32:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x233.google.com (mail-wg0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 150571A1ADB for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 12:32:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wgic8 with SMTP id c8so54734741wgi.1 for ; Fri, 08 May 2015 12:32:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=B4Plivu/8MMBqx2jZHhLaz0QsziJLQgyR8ILrtsK8N4=; b=YEnokofFVUoqBjOjeT67LmAlOwigUVTb+EK4L+JqB/VCC2ZxEtxqCPl0cTStk1DxfK rJbg+fA+n9j5imGELZ4m/NYGBHAeuGMlO1dWQnCnAViQvYt021VGPqfHpxcdqS70THlB sP7yk+HvNa1ckmT9AuaRdgTnpmdcJMtw2VwvfmftF44q5jv/UV7LXvYp6c+0Rta8+74V iLpYdJcQ3sCb9uRo20pqbEEncSAHgHtqN3pX+1Jk9MhntVtCoNMjQTaHnZenvd+C9pc+ d03Akazhl0W76iKVUasQ1TcoyYkr39ltmjAgFbQmCG5dYHgG/GO/MQl1FeNoQNnLpgF3 y29g== X-Received: by 10.180.106.70 with SMTP id gs6mr743382wib.36.1431113536850; Fri, 08 May 2015 12:32:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Honesty (AMontsouris-652-1-24-44.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr. [82.123.159.44]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ng5sm192012wic.24.2015.05.08.12.32.16 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 08 May 2015 12:32:16 -0700 (PDT) From: "Euee S. Jang" To: "'Timothy B. Terriberry'" , "'Alissa Cooper'" , References: <0fb6887f5f964458a8f8e4c1d8db7fe2@TUCM03.TUECSP.UNICC.ORG> <554CC71E.5000507@xiph.org> In-Reply-To: <554CC71E.5000507@xiph.org> Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 21:32:18 +0200 Message-ID: <00d701d089c5$b2540dc0$16fc2940$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 15.0 thread-index: AQD75L7LGv+rhvwLhQI5Qf8VAdbiRQEBzvJYAUGeJF6fCaVtkA== Content-Language: ko Archived-At: Subject: Re: [video-codec] LS from ITU-T SG 16 X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 19:32:20 -0000 I would like to mention that ISO/IEC JTC1/SC29/WG11 (MPEG) is currently investigating the development of a Type-1 (royalty-free) standard as an exploration stage. This work is also called as 'Internet Video Coding'. Euee Jang Prof. Euee S. Jang Digital Media Lab, Computer Division, Hanyang University, Seoul, Korea esjang@hanyang.ac.kr 010-2296-1086 02-2220-1086 http://dmlab.hanyang.ac.kr -----Original Message----- From: video-codec [mailto:video-codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Timothy B. Terriberry Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 4:25 PM To: Alissa Cooper; video-codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [video-codec] LS from ITU-T SG 16 Alissa Cooper wrote: > As the liaison statement notes, there are many concurrent ongoing > efforts to develop video codecs, and the NETVC work would merely be > one additional such effort. We do not view the proposed NETVC work as > harmful for interoperability, but rather as helpful, considering the > fact that at present the licensing environment creates barriers to > full interoperability in many cases. I think the important point is that there are *no* existing standardization efforts with the simultaneous goals of best-in-class performance *and* royalty-free licensing (however we choose to phrase that). _______________________________________________ video-codec mailing list video-codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec From nobody Fri May 8 16:22:04 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56FA81A86E9 for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 16:22:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e0rqI7LnyBkL for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 16:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x22f.google.com (mail-lb0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ACD071A8029 for ; Fri, 8 May 2015 16:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbcga7 with SMTP id ga7so62889900lbc.1 for ; Fri, 08 May 2015 16:22:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=OPOuhUZBZeulXa1JUWRZFPyYXAO0dBR+tcA0x+CvyVs=; b=LiUyX/f8BWPkxgMfxfCshwhZb9cQKqslJu29m/GIggCqI1QIDPf2Y/L6xS2GgvqMb5 ebEm4pK48Yn0TIiHpCd7fD/DE5Mev2rrRDNMaqMhvDFtl07j61wIKqzI5w6RnWbw6azH bzMmdcdxHHNSUvfVtVQc3R3Li3T41Q5xogo2mfLgtT8FfRMBLMj8AuX8W7zBFrzlk4nF w/zlTjiLHNLsgCQXIDEVAlHBWsobX50jOz0iUzs0meYmLnggFRZ7wSLF4+H7GiwfDAqZ 1WIBaAExa96Cmdi0SIglSmDpY4VCP0oViEs5gozViByrnbGM+KmCSi3/hwHFky5VxkHQ gOcw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.42.164 with SMTP id p4mr252346lal.3.1431127320151; Fri, 08 May 2015 16:22:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.31.193 with HTTP; Fri, 8 May 2015 16:22:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <00d701d089c5$b2540dc0$16fc2940$@gmail.com> References: <0fb6887f5f964458a8f8e4c1d8db7fe2@TUCM03.TUECSP.UNICC.ORG> <554CC71E.5000507@xiph.org> <00d701d089c5$b2540dc0$16fc2940$@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 16:22:00 -0700 Message-ID: From: Monty Montgomery To: "Euee S. Jang" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "video-codec@ietf.org" , Alissa Cooper , "Timothy B. Terriberry" Subject: Re: [video-codec] LS from ITU-T SG 16 X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 May 2015 23:22:03 -0000 On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 12:32 PM, Euee S. Jang wrote: > I would like to mention that ISO/IEC JTC1/SC29/WG11 (MPEG) is currently > investigating the development of a Type-1 (royalty-free) standard as an > exploration stage. This has effectively 'been in committee' for 20 years. The committee's practical purpose appears to be to mention the existence of the committee any time an outside RF effort starts up. When the ITU or ISO/MPEG finally manage to put out an RF video codec of any form no matter how uncompelling, I'll start paying attention. Not necessarily much, but hey, you have to start somewhere. It's pretty simple: They have to give us a license we can use, delivering on some very old and musty promises, and until then I don't care much about any jimmies that may get rustled. Monty And to be clear, that's absolutely the opinion of me as an individual and not my employer or cow-orkers. From nobody Sat May 9 00:48:16 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AF651A89F1 for ; Sat, 9 May 2015 00:48:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vX8HI3Aw90xv for ; Sat, 9 May 2015 00:48:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22c.google.com (mail-wi0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D722C1A0006 for ; Sat, 9 May 2015 00:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by widdi4 with SMTP id di4so53027817wid.0 for ; Sat, 09 May 2015 00:48:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=mJxYPrgy2G15nrcUvTmP08vW2CIQcnJb8LGIWG2e1Zk=; b=A/GF4WrKfMAVFc388R9nMfqtfXWKp5fSGbJwJePixCl9z4P5BKarSvXnSJAc1Nxvrl Xs+72fKWrY/nmvStr+0m3W+6zjOWdpL0vecVjPkNOmul1uNdfs4IqKZ95i9oklyAVUun OAhbUcchodr6dZINYEMm9yh53wNG14Fz1TZAIqKCmyoGP4HxCMVvIbf1E5lZuRW/XqT4 EB/4iIvHrNVxvulAxBg0zEQmWpe25muF6eYb6vvZwBqgBaSn8agbV6eQx79tZclkSDyQ fhXzXkstA2Mupicf/asBbUD6brdD4qzJkmlnoWRQZWsY1bZnI7fPiGX2wR5QcDFU796h rjfA== X-Received: by 10.180.20.14 with SMTP id j14mr3173231wie.45.1431157692646; Sat, 09 May 2015 00:48:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Honesty (AMontsouris-652-1-24-44.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr. [82.123.159.44]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id b5sm2552504wiw.8.2015.05.09.00.48.11 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 09 May 2015 00:48:11 -0700 (PDT) From: "Euee S. Jang" To: "'Monty Montgomery'" References: <0fb6887f5f964458a8f8e4c1d8db7fe2@TUCM03.TUECSP.UNICC.ORG> <554CC71E.5000507@xiph.org> <00d701d089c5$b2540dc0$16fc2940$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 9 May 2015 09:48:14 +0200 Message-ID: <001801d08a2c$81b94060$852bc120$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 15.0 Thread-Index: AQD75L7LGv+rhvwLhQI5Qf8VAdbiRQEBzvJYAUGeJF4BhNK89AK7RYstnuhwHsA= Content-Language: ko Archived-At: Cc: video-codec@ietf.org, 'Alissa Cooper' , "'Timothy B. Terriberry'" Subject: Re: [video-codec] LS from ITU-T SG 16 X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 May 2015 07:48:15 -0000 In fact, there have been three attempts within MPEG to make an RF = standards: 1) Web Video Coding (basically an AVC baseline profile), 2) = Video Coding for Browsers (VCB)-the same as VC8-, and 3) IVC. For now, = MPEG-1 is a true RF standard so far. :-) The licensing issue has been one of the major driving forces in MPEG. = And this is why it is so hard to make one which is royally free.=20 Still, I wanted to mention that there are people/industry who would like = to make Type-1 (royalty-free) MPEG standards.=20 After all, those who are in MPEG Type-1 are not *they*, but may well be = *we* that should work together. Euee -----Original Message----- From: Monty Montgomery [mailto:xiphmont@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2015 1:22 AM To: Euee S. Jang Cc: Timothy B. Terriberry; Alissa Cooper; video-codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [video-codec] LS from ITU-T SG 16 On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 12:32 PM, Euee S. Jang = wrote: > I would like to mention that ISO/IEC JTC1/SC29/WG11 (MPEG) is=20 > currently investigating the development of a Type-1 (royalty-free)=20 > standard as an exploration stage. This has effectively 'been in committee' for 20 years. The committee's practical purpose appears to be to mention the existence = of the committee any time an outside RF effort starts up. When the ITU or ISO/MPEG finally manage to put out an RF video codec of = any form no matter how uncompelling, I'll start paying attention. Not necessarily much, but hey, you have to start somewhere. It's pretty simple: They have to give us a license we can use, = delivering on some very old and musty promises, and until then I don't = care much about any jimmies that may get rustled. Monty And to be clear, that's absolutely the opinion of me as an individual = and not my employer or cow-orkers. From nobody Sat May 9 04:19:28 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BA041A7004 for ; Sat, 9 May 2015 04:19:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.004 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.004 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DEAR_SOMETHING=1.973, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qP2knrYVQBoW for ; Sat, 9 May 2015 04:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f173.google.com (mail-wi0-f173.google.com [209.85.212.173]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 35A3A1A70FD for ; Sat, 9 May 2015 04:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wief7 with SMTP id f7so53038057wie.0 for ; Sat, 09 May 2015 04:19:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=AThhhvzKQM7zUoIWb4Ve7A7fqW6jq/5xvwKym4zopIU=; b=Hsrcg34s0+2j1oFZ4icXDP5YpEm4dW8ExkCwYg8+NuzCJcvV+PeVbs+N3jwa9CoFwx G6PJ9XPkhf6K5PQc/3mg5zgC4sqrA6oRMNeBsdSuFpDKDYDmZiiNpjxSWN1LwOLjiJc2 l+eegufUznYNLbvnjcQiKd+TeTdldsR3iv2aLj5ux3+xP1EMz7kXrpddzuHBHi0Ppg7a drdjgaCEaMhrxmOz/ThkJ/V42jkDZyop/KPV9vD9q7WghXk67sBoBm6uux5S8wvz5Lvz fhTXfqwzg29nX9gu0L+Y4iN5FekZQp/sG03BWgGQnQwl2+bc9FvysPtY+B4hQYtRrewn I3Wg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlXXA1RGUMuU0+Vj2bjtK8TM2PencPqJLBBv1GM4CuZJ0FMlSRNTU8IFdsgoruhnw0oNQC/ X-Received: by 10.180.212.106 with SMTP id nj10mr4391727wic.53.1431170363909; Sat, 09 May 2015 04:19:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.27.205.87 with HTTP; Sat, 9 May 2015 04:18:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <0fb6887f5f964458a8f8e4c1d8db7fe2@TUCM03.TUECSP.UNICC.ORG> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sat, 9 May 2015 07:18:43 -0400 Message-ID: To: Alissa Cooper Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c32948277bbf0515a451f7 Archived-At: Cc: "video-codec@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [video-codec] LS from ITU-T SG 16 X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 May 2015 11:19:27 -0000 --001a11c32948277bbf0515a451f7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This text sees satisfactory. Note that what's required here is a response, not a debate, so I don't think we need to worry overmuch about making every point possible. -Ekr On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote: > The IESG has received a liaison statement from ITU-T SG 16 concerning the > netvc chartering effort: . > I=E2=80=99ve begun drafting a response and would like your input before I= bring > this back to the IESG. Please suggest edits/additions: > > --- > > We are writing in response to the liaison statement received from ITU-T S= G > 16 requesting clarification about the goals the proposed Internet Video > Codec (NETVC) working group. The NETVC charter uses the word =E2=80=9Ccom= petitive=E2=80=9D > in the sense of =E2=80=9Ccomparable." That is, the goal of the working gr= oup is to > produce a codec whose quality and efficiency are comparable to the video > codecs in widespread use at the time when the NETVC work is finalized. > > As the liaison statement notes, there are many concurrent ongoing efforts > to develop video codecs, and the NETVC work would merely be one additiona= l > such effort. We do not view the proposed NETVC work as harmful for > interoperability, but rather as helpful, considering the fact that at > present the licensing environment creates barriers to full interoperabili= ty > in many cases. > > --- > > Thanks, > Alissa > > > Begin forwarded message: > > *From: *"TSB SG16 Secretariat, ITU" > *Subject: **COM 16-LS 156 - Outgoing LS from ITU-T SG 16 (agreed by > correspondence, 4 May 2015)* > *Date: *May 4, 2015 at 8:11:34 AM PDT > *To: *"'statements@ietf.org'" , "iesg@ietf.org" < > iesg@ietf.org> > *Cc: *"twiegand@ieee.org" , "Naito, Yushi \(TIES\)" < > yushi.naito@ties.itu.int>, "jill.boyce@intel.com" , > 'Gary Sullivan' , "Campos, Simao" < > simao.campos@itu.int> > > Dear Sir/Madam, > Kindly find attached the Liaison Statement COM16 - LS 156, with title: = =E2=80=9CLS > on call for comments on an IETF WG on Internet Video Codec (netvc) [to IE= TF > IESG]=E2=80=9D, agreed by the ITU-T SG16 management by correspondence on = 4 May 2015. > > Best regards, > > *Rosa Angeles-Leon De Vivero* > *Administrative Assistant for ITU-T Study Group 16, IPTV-GSI, JCA-IPTV & > IRG-AVA* > International Telecommunication Union > *Place des Nations, CH-1211 Geneva, Switzerland* > Tel : +41 22 730 5445 > tsbsg16@itu.int > tsbiptv@itu.int > www.itu.int & www.itu150.org > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > video-codec mailing list > video-codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec > > --001a11c32948277bbf0515a451f7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This text sees satisfactory. Note that what's required= here is a response, not a debate,
so I don't think we need to worr= y overmuch about making every point possible.

-Ekr=


On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Alissa Cooper &= lt;alissa@cooperw.in= > wrote:
The IESG has received a liaison statement from ITU-T SG 1= 6 concerning the netvc chartering effort: <https://datatracker.ietf.org/li= aison/1399/>. I=E2=80=99ve begun drafting a response and would like = your input before I bring this back to the IESG. Please suggest edits/addit= ions:

---

We are writing in res= ponse to the liaison statement received from ITU-T SG 16 requesting clarifi= cation about the goals the proposed Internet Video Codec (NETVC) working gr= oup. The NETVC charter uses the word =E2=80=9Ccompetitive=E2=80=9D in the s= ense of =E2=80=9Ccomparable." That is, the goal of the working group i= s to produce a codec whose quality and efficiency are comparable to the vid= eo codecs in widespread use at the time when the NETVC work is finalized.
As the liaison statement notes, there are many concurrent= ongoing efforts to develop video codecs, and the NETVC work would merely b= e one additional such effort. We do not view the proposed NETVC work as har= mful for interoperability, but rather as helpful, considering the fact that= at present the licensing environment creates barriers to full interoperabi= lity in many cases.=C2=A0

---

=
Thanks,
Alissa


Begin forwa= rded message:

From: "TSB SG16 Secretariat, ITU&= quot; <tsbsg16@itu.= int>
Subject: COM 16-LS 156 - Outgoing LS from ITU-T SG 16 (a= greed by correspondence, 4 May 2015)
Date: May 4, 2015 at 8:11:34 = AM PDT
Cc: &= quot;twiegand@ieee.o= rg" <twi= egand@ieee.org>, "Naito, Yushi \(TIES\)" <yushi.naito@ties.itu.int>, "jil= l.boyce@intel.com" <jill.boyce@intel.com>, 'Gary Sullivan' <garysull@microsof= t.com>, "Campos, Simao" <simao.campos@itu.int>

Dear Sir/Madam,
Kindly find attached t= he Liaison Statement COM16 - LS 156, with title: =E2=80=9CLS on call for co= mments on an IETF WG on Internet Video Codec (netvc) [to IETF IESG]=E2=80= =9D, agreed by the ITU-T SG16 management by correspondence on 4 May 2015.

Best regards,

=C2=A0=
= Rosa Angeles-Leon De Vivero
Administrative Assistant for ITU-T Study Group 16, IPTV-GSI, JCA-IP= TV & IRG-AVA
Inter= national Telecommunication Union<= /u>
Place des Nations, CH-1211 Geneva, Switzerland
<= div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times = New Roman',serif;line-height:16px">Tel : +41 22 730 5445
tsbsg16@itu.int

=
=C2=A0
=C2=A0



_______________________________________________=
video-codec mailing list
video-codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec


--001a11c32948277bbf0515a451f7-- From nobody Sat May 9 12:47:06 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4A9B1A1B95 for ; Sat, 9 May 2015 12:47:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RbPdQIJTKjJu for ; Sat, 9 May 2015 12:47:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x235.google.com (mail-lb0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 555141A1B88 for ; Sat, 9 May 2015 12:47:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbbqq2 with SMTP id qq2so72171673lbb.3 for ; Sat, 09 May 2015 12:47:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=+UA2IMwI/VTnV7oKRegb33vjxAxqc5z/NPahP8cEZWE=; b=JqIItLo6SjxobDknV/66/hMCUHlL14dKYWH78XC/5jdwNAr3BVygGoaoT7Ty6lzBEu P5Wx16yxRydmNR57Ym3aPPXWk0QLYd3I5Vu6/ieW/wGYL3Ea4aWp/tiZEdDSD0JRuinR p7wZ8tBzhSKPp74DJ6BrgwF5VsT7Jr9/q38i7QgUC1FH3RXeU/Ot8myhU5OfNSiXqt6K r/19UIeYMxp0psQ9M5Ydl9vR/eMQf6gy/dl0PgOxBMPNx119CuXPwjQscnyWJhGJ5DNe o1hEVEBl4ISl/LEPhI3FfiYS7oNlyq+KCAevubsRSAVd5p9jOx1IMX16oa3xFNbjJs+i 1usQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.42.164 with SMTP id p4mr2324697lal.3.1431200822657; Sat, 09 May 2015 12:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.31.193 with HTTP; Sat, 9 May 2015 12:47:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <001801d08a2c$81b94060$852bc120$@gmail.com> References: <0fb6887f5f964458a8f8e4c1d8db7fe2@TUCM03.TUECSP.UNICC.ORG> <554CC71E.5000507@xiph.org> <00d701d089c5$b2540dc0$16fc2940$@gmail.com> <001801d08a2c$81b94060$852bc120$@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 9 May 2015 12:47:02 -0700 Message-ID: From: Monty Montgomery To: "Euee S. Jang" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "video-codec@ietf.org" , Alissa Cooper , "Timothy B. Terriberry" Subject: Re: [video-codec] LS from ITU-T SG 16 X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 May 2015 19:47:06 -0000 On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 12:48 AM, Euee S. Jang wrote: > The licensing issue has been one of the major driving forces in MPEG. And this is why it is so hard to make one which is royally free. > Still, I wanted to mention that there are people/industry who would like to make Type-1 (royalty-free) MPEG standards. There are! And I absolutely do not want to dismiss them. There has been strong royalty-free sentiment at the MPEG from the outset (I believe starting with Leo Chiariglione himself). *They should come join us.* Despite a strong and consistent RF movement, MPEG continues to turn out increasingly encumbered formats even for efforts which ostensibly intended to deliver a minimum of a royalty-free baseline. That suggests there is a structural problem with MPEG itself (but that's a different discussion). So, I would encourage those people within MPEG who want to see a royalty free standard to come join us at the IETF. IETF has an established history of royalty free work (even if it's relatively new at codecs). The individuals of the IETF have already succeeded at RF many times. More often than not, it's the default assumption (after all, licensing seriously gums up ubiquitous adoption). And again, I would argue that's due to structural and incentive differences. > After all, those who are in MPEG Type-1 are not *they*, but may well be *we* that should work together. Yes! Nor do I think anyone here would suggest that the MPEG does not turn out top notch work. However, I can't use any of it. And for that reason, I've chosen an environment most likely to maximize my personal success. It is not within the structure of the MPEG. I do not think that if my group and I chose to join an MPEG effort, we would overcome the structural biases against RF. Monty From nobody Sun May 10 00:18:14 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 619541A037A for ; Sun, 10 May 2015 00:18:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jwq3vs7KCsbq for ; Sun, 10 May 2015 00:18:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x230.google.com (mail-wi0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A79831A0377 for ; Sun, 10 May 2015 00:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by widdi4 with SMTP id di4so65610830wid.0 for ; Sun, 10 May 2015 00:18:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=23KnVBQR8jHlWDRmd/e8zgT+jGEA5/iMhdRPrDh/nMw=; b=jyNEPyY6ShDwZXB7gJWD72ZCgScK8hfZYlqRX58721/WWOvcORdBmIVdKAxWStl5Dk WFs+QONN3Th5f5dXdDvzvvlyX2C746hA7P0AxMlNJVrbp3Fns05fuTFLqS4AC86E7E9B IA2JwNiAswoOjnXCBY10zm3h1yX8VOSRXIyDsMhyjFgDTfCzxv+ZsC27BHlDZD7xuLww V4pHIY+jdnMYNIMVG8qF0O5pAYpcKWh78rnd5huLDhE7CY+9X8Rjx+Ux47oCPTkRHygS pN4GZroVdPmOfGE2uHOwUZGJORSXEJ+KwhZY+t0jL/nDH3ywDepagIMJ32rbk5PTReGz VvrA== X-Received: by 10.180.97.164 with SMTP id eb4mr9966260wib.3.1431242290482; Sun, 10 May 2015 00:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Honesty (AMontsouris-652-1-24-44.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr. [82.123.159.44]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id i13sm7216173wic.13.2015.05.10.00.18.09 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 10 May 2015 00:18:09 -0700 (PDT) From: "Euee S. Jang" To: "'Monty Montgomery'" References: <0fb6887f5f964458a8f8e4c1d8db7fe2@TUCM03.TUECSP.UNICC.ORG> <554CC71E.5000507@xiph.org> <00d701d089c5$b2540dc0$16fc2940$@gmail.com> <001801d08a2c$81b94060$852bc120$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 09:18:13 +0200 Message-ID: <000801d08af1$7a6fc0c0$6f4f4240$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 15.0 Thread-Index: AQD75L7LGv+rhvwLhQI5Qf8VAdbiRQEBzvJYAUGeJF4BhNK89AK7RYstAmvO9H4CreGuEp7BLlMA Content-Language: ko Archived-At: Cc: video-codec@ietf.org, 'Alissa Cooper' , "'Timothy B. Terriberry'" Subject: Re: [video-codec] LS from ITU-T SG 16 X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 07:18:13 -0000 A very interesting suggestion.=20 Maybe what we can do together with MPEG is to initiate such a = discussion. In fact, the recent video codecs from MPEG such as AVC and = HEVC are all coming from the collaboration with ITU SG 16. If IETF is willing to talk with MPEG on such a matter, it would be also = nice let them know. Euee -----Original Message----- From: Monty Montgomery [mailto:xiphmont@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2015 9:47 PM To: Euee S. Jang Cc: Timothy B. Terriberry; Alissa Cooper; video-codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [video-codec] LS from ITU-T SG 16 On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 12:48 AM, Euee S. Jang = wrote: > The licensing issue has been one of the major driving forces in MPEG. = And this is why it is so hard to make one which is royally free. > Still, I wanted to mention that there are people/industry who would = like to make Type-1 (royalty-free) MPEG standards. There are! And I absolutely do not want to dismiss them. There has been = strong royalty-free sentiment at the MPEG from the outset (I believe = starting with Leo Chiariglione himself). *They should come join us.* Despite a strong and consistent RF movement, MPEG continues to turn out = increasingly encumbered formats even for efforts which ostensibly = intended to deliver a minimum of a royalty-free baseline. That suggests = there is a structural problem with MPEG itself (but that's a different = discussion). So, I would encourage those people within MPEG who want to see a royalty = free standard to come join us at the IETF. IETF has an established = history of royalty free work (even if it's relatively new at codecs). = The individuals of the IETF have already succeeded at RF many times. = More often than not, it's the default assumption (after all, licensing = seriously gums up ubiquitous adoption). And again, I would argue that's = due to structural and incentive differences. > After all, those who are in MPEG Type-1 are not *they*, but may well = be *we* that should work together. Yes! Nor do I think anyone here would suggest that the MPEG does not = turn out top notch work. However, I can't use any of it. And for that = reason, I've chosen an environment most likely to maximize my personal = success. It is not within the structure of the MPEG. I do not think = that if my group and I chose to join an MPEG effort, we would overcome = the structural biases against RF. Monty From nobody Sun May 10 03:08:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A19D21A007A for ; Sun, 10 May 2015 03:08:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.078 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.078 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pvx_EHSuih8p for ; Sun, 10 May 2015 03:08:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f169.google.com (mail-wi0-f169.google.com [209.85.212.169]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD4FE1A0074 for ; Sun, 10 May 2015 03:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wizk4 with SMTP id k4so74240312wiz.1 for ; Sun, 10 May 2015 03:08:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=WJ8h3IwXp6/bMuvP0SCFA3uQDgnJBweM0Cs1nQq7RWY=; b=BjOAOc1eZ2hbOoPVPxbPH7aFuQSn6CBsK2lIb5bU5ERiByPrLElFFPzRvqA8F/BeHg gnDav8ABECTs49CnQ5luKZx4ps5qgbZgUmv97xSCjQiEGD4jZ57Zh7nouzGn/DOFqzl3 Rg4nCGZ+5S0I8TCsrOP8lkpvHLmBfhlBHLfllzVOXnr3CH51QSqUdruuikEPG3D3OL55 AqjQ7AUwdwtFPhJzwrstBsUr0kWcWwtZk6rx/QTzz3PEHYMnXyWZpHpEdnrYgDPLBmjE 7lc6rjJyeOeDqTIKyBZjpZc93WDGoJQAiwO8QXCW9Jlnf4SDc3I+bnX1as3k85hCY7ni 23dg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlILS5hCthqAJOd7BY/UVhJ+smH1wdLyt7Y5CdXoHd4hNwJyLk6+GGaViHrSs0qqfo4lB9e MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.120.68 with SMTP id la4mr10963564wjb.139.1431252488460; Sun, 10 May 2015 03:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.243.106 with HTTP; Sun, 10 May 2015 03:08:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <000801d08af1$7a6fc0c0$6f4f4240$@gmail.com> References: <0fb6887f5f964458a8f8e4c1d8db7fe2@TUCM03.TUECSP.UNICC.ORG> <554CC71E.5000507@xiph.org> <00d701d089c5$b2540dc0$16fc2940$@gmail.com> <001801d08a2c$81b94060$852bc120$@gmail.com> <000801d08af1$7a6fc0c0$6f4f4240$@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 13:08:08 +0300 Message-ID: From: Mohammed Raad To: "video-codec@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0116009828b4b00515b770a3 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [video-codec] LS from ITU-T SG 16 X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 10:08:15 -0000 --089e0116009828b4b00515b770a3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I think that the response drafted by Alissa is sufficient and I agree with Eric; what's required is simply a response and not a debate. I would suggest that people who have invested their time and resources into getting this working group started, focus on getting the technical work done instead of going back to debates about where to do the work. Note that the ITU and ISO/IEC have indeed attempted to develop RF codecs and yes there are ongoing efforts, but its always an uphill struggle within the relevant working groups in those organizations because of the anti-RF crowd there. Perhaps this work will progress more easily through the IETF - but I strongly doubt that will be the case if the technical approach taken by the NETVC working group resembles the technical approaches in AVC and HEVC. BR, On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 10:18 AM, Euee S. Jang wrote: > A very interesting suggestion. > > Maybe what we can do together with MPEG is to initiate such a discussion. > In fact, the recent video codecs from MPEG such as AVC and HEVC are all > coming from the collaboration with ITU SG 16. > > If IETF is willing to talk with MPEG on such a matter, it would be also > nice let them know. > > Euee > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Monty Montgomery [mailto:xiphmont@gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2015 9:47 PM > To: Euee S. Jang > Cc: Timothy B. Terriberry; Alissa Cooper; video-codec@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [video-codec] LS from ITU-T SG 16 > > On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 12:48 AM, Euee S. Jang wrote: > > The licensing issue has been one of the major driving forces in MPEG. > And this is why it is so hard to make one which is royally free. > > Still, I wanted to mention that there are people/industry who would like > to make Type-1 (royalty-free) MPEG standards. > > There are! And I absolutely do not want to dismiss them. There has been > strong royalty-free sentiment at the MPEG from the outset (I believe > starting with Leo Chiariglione himself). > > *They should come join us.* > > Despite a strong and consistent RF movement, MPEG continues to turn out > increasingly encumbered formats even for efforts which ostensibly intended > to deliver a minimum of a royalty-free baseline. That suggests there is a > structural problem with MPEG itself (but that's a different discussion). > > So, I would encourage those people within MPEG who want to see a royalty > free standard to come join us at the IETF. IETF has an established history > of royalty free work (even if it's relatively new at codecs). The > individuals of the IETF have already succeeded at RF many times. More > often than not, it's the default assumption (after all, licensing seriously > gums up ubiquitous adoption). And again, I would argue that's due to > structural and incentive differences. > > > After all, those who are in MPEG Type-1 are not *they*, but may well be > *we* that should work together. > > Yes! Nor do I think anyone here would suggest that the MPEG does not turn > out top notch work. However, I can't use any of it. And for that reason, > I've chosen an environment most likely to maximize my personal success. It > is not within the structure of the MPEG. I do not think that if my group > and I chose to join an MPEG effort, we would overcome the structural biases > against RF. > > Monty > > _______________________________________________ > video-codec mailing list > video-codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec > -- Mohammed Raad, PhD. Partner RAADTECH CONSULTING P.O. Box 113 Warrawong NSW 2502 Australia Phone: +61 414451478 Email: mohammedsraad@raadtech.com --089e0116009828b4b00515b770a3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think that the response drafted by Alissa is sufficient = and I agree with Eric; what's required is simply a response and not a d= ebate.

I would suggest that people who have invested the= ir time and resources into getting this working group started, focus on get= ting the technical work done instead of going back to debates about where t= o do the work.

Note that the ITU and ISO/IEC have = indeed attempted to develop RF codecs and yes there are ongoing efforts, bu= t its always an uphill struggle within the relevant working groups in those= organizations because of the anti-RF crowd there. Perhaps this work will p= rogress more easily through the IETF - but I strongly doubt that will be th= e case if the technical approach taken by the NETVC working group resembles= the technical approaches in AVC and HEVC.

BR,

On Sun, M= ay 10, 2015 at 10:18 AM, Euee S. Jang <profjang@gmail.com> = wrote:
A very interesting suggestion.

Maybe what we can do together with MPEG is to initiate such a discussion. I= n fact, the recent video codecs from MPEG such as AVC and HEVC are all comi= ng from the collaboration with ITU SG 16.

If IETF is willing to talk with MPEG on such a matter, it would be also nic= e let them know.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Euee



-----Original Message-----
From: Monty Montgomery [mailto:xiphmo= nt@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2015 9:47 PM
To: Euee S. Jang
Cc: Timothy B. Terriberry; Alissa Cooper; video-codec@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [video-codec] LS from ITU-T SG 16

On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 12:48= AM, Euee S. Jang <profjang@gmail.= com> wrote:
> The licensing issue has been one of the major driving forces in MPEG. = And this is why it is so hard to make one which is royally free.
> Still, I wanted to mention that there are people/industry who would li= ke to make Type-1 (royalty-free) MPEG standards.

There are! And I absolutely do not want to dismiss them.=C2=A0 There has be= en strong royalty-free sentiment at the MPEG from the outset (I believe sta= rting with Leo Chiariglione himself).

*They should come join us.*

Despite a strong and consistent RF movement, MPEG continues to turn out inc= reasingly encumbered formats even for efforts which ostensibly intended to = deliver a minimum of a royalty-free baseline.=C2=A0 That suggests there is = a structural problem with MPEG itself (but that's a different discussio= n).

So, I would encourage those people within MPEG who want to see a royalty fr= ee standard to come join us at the IETF.=C2=A0 IETF has an established hist= ory of royalty free work (even if it's relatively new at codecs).=C2=A0= The individuals of the IETF have already succeeded at RF many times.=C2=A0= More often than not, it's the default assumption (after all, licensing= seriously gums up ubiquitous adoption). And again, I would argue that'= s due to structural and incentive differences.

> After all, those who are in MPEG Type-1 are not *they*, but may well b= e *we* that should work together.

Yes!=C2=A0 Nor do I think anyone here would suggest that the MPEG does not = turn out top notch work.=C2=A0 However, I can't use any of it.=C2=A0 An= d for that reason, I've chosen an environment most likely to maximize m= y personal success.=C2=A0 It is not within the structure of the MPEG.=C2=A0= I do not think that if my group and I chose to join an MPEG effort, we wou= ld overcome the structural biases against RF.

Monty

_______________________________________________
video-codec mailing list
video-codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec



--
=
Mohammed Raad, PhD.
Partner
RAADTECH C= ONSULTING
P.O. Box 113
Warrawong
NSW 2502 Australia
Phone: +61 = 414451478
Email: mohammedsraad@raadtech.com
--089e0116009828b4b00515b770a3-- From nobody Mon May 11 06:13:58 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95CF41A7026 for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 06:13:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4Q_IGv58GSzX for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 06:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x230.google.com (mail-ig0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 136791A7022 for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 06:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by igbyr2 with SMTP id yr2so69173185igb.0 for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 06:13:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=unQmOD8BfdfEc+tO0/FTfhZ0VhYooxB1aVTe5KydKHk=; b=X1ZESIi5Q/NSUGhMD3s/e3b7W0OGoBdwLpDyTIRkcYkDanVWFYkrUyWmo7urDbArCu 4F069YLQKKMgDFFUoyV+QqUcAAmOuRvYfQV8ZW0wqDaqq1wqWFOkBWRHEqIV1usS5BKN GqendVnjTu5GUq7r2CYY+wpp4kQrOvjCfI+taeseVew2Uu9y7lABS8DCGl3dkfB0w2W7 cq+37B3bjEDpc+7i2z7r7G3SmI3d6rXcYxR/b3E8wQmxdSZ1RRzZx+YHeP4PqpjThR0q ZZ2+6wohRboruMIevJtrEvBWNGJ9d0U5lYFOHbI7qc44vsSFIwdoGgH96zRo5yLSXRRD Axeg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.136.158 with SMTP id s30mr12820177ioi.65.1431350034364; Mon, 11 May 2015 06:13:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.44.136 with HTTP; Mon, 11 May 2015 06:13:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 06:13:54 -0700 Message-ID: From: David Benham To: video-codec@ietf.org, alissa@cooperw.in Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113eb318599e780515ce26cc Archived-At: Subject: Re: [video-codec] LS from ITU-T SG 16 (Alissa Cooper) X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 13:13:56 -0000 --001a113eb318599e780515ce26cc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alissa Your version is fine, but there is one extra subpoint I suggest we add to the first paragraph. It re-uses 'to elaborate' text directly from the charter (subtle RTFM?)... < new first paragraph proposed > We are writing in response to the liaison statement received from ITU-T SG 16 requesting clarification about the goals the proposed Internet Video Codec (NETVC) working group. The NETVC charter uses the word =E2=80=9Ccomp= etitive=E2=80=9D in the sense of being =E2=80=9Ccomparable" and "commercially interesting to implement." That is, the goal of the working group is to produce a video codec that will need to have comparable quality and efficiency as well as have IPR licensing terms make it that commercially interesting to deploy widely at the time when the NETVC work is finalized. > From: Alissa Cooper > > We are writing in response to the liaison statement received from ITU-T S= G > 16 requesting clarification about the goals the proposed Internet Video > Codec (NETVC) working group. The NETVC charter uses the word =E2=80=9Ccom= petitive=E2=80=9D > in the sense of =E2=80=9Ccomparable." That is, the goal of the working gr= oup is to > produce a codec whose quality and efficiency are comparable to the video > codecs in widespread use at the time when the NETVC work is finalized. > > As the liaison statement notes, there are many concurrent ongoing efforts > to develop video codecs, and the NETVC work would merely be one additiona= l > such effort. We do not view the proposed NETVC work as harmful for > interoperability, but rather as helpful, considering the fact that at > present the licensing environment creates barriers to full interoperabili= ty > in many cases. > > --- > > Thanks, > Alissa > > --001a113eb318599e780515ce26cc Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Alissa
Your version is fine, but there is one extra subpoint I s= uggest we add to the first paragraph.=C2=A0 It re-uses 'to elaborate= 9; text directly from the charter (subtle RTFM?)... =C2=A0

< new first paragraph proposed >
We are writing in= response to the liaison statement received from ITU-T SG 16 requesting cla= rification about the goals the proposed Internet Video Codec (NETVC) workin= g group.=C2=A0 The NETVC charter uses the word =E2=80=9Ccompetitive=E2=80= =9D in the sense of being =E2=80=9Ccomparable" and "commercially = interesting to implement." =C2=A0That is, the goal of the working grou= p is to produce a video codec that will need to have comparable quality and= efficiency as well as have IPR licensing terms make it that commercially i= nteresting to deploy widely at the time when the NETVC work is finalized.


=C2=A0
From:= =C2=A0Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw= .in>

We a= re writing in response to the liaison statement received from ITU-T SG 16 r= equesting clarification about the goals the proposed Internet Video Codec (= NETVC) working group. The NETVC charter uses the word =E2=80=9Ccompetitive= =E2=80=9D in the sense of =E2=80=9Ccomparable." That is, the goal of t= he working group is to produce a codec whose quality and efficiency are com= parable to the video codecs in widespread use at the time when the NETVC wo= rk is finalized.

As the liaison statement notes, there a= re many concurrent ongoing efforts to develop video codecs, and the NETVC w= ork would merely be one additional such effort. We do not view the proposed= NETVC work as harmful for interoperability, but rather as helpful, conside= ring the fact that at present the licensing environment creates barriers to= full interoperability in many cases.=C2=A0

---

Thanks,
Alissa

<= /div>
--001a113eb318599e780515ce26cc-- From nobody Mon May 11 08:57:12 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FAB71A1B81 for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 08:57:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.173 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.173 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DEAR_SOMETHING=1.973, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uDr68GVzPHev for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 08:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB9861A1A48 for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 08:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3431520BEE for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 11:57:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend2 ([10.202.2.161]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 11 May 2015 11:57:08 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h= content-type:date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=mesmtp; bh=vzNni 6JeFEZb5653s8QJLIQxuJg=; b=cCquwT7nAQalCkCDFA/8fsuoTfDnxLgJht9bN +P7C/yBr2R/Ekc7b6xyUzITypIDwizEGsGnfkP0vWi28B5/fDq7ZRbs9BSNqN9Bz /R7eg75OgKT622uQzjhRTnWiWqFp8+nx5IAstuWiSz62lBPwfgWSrywvIvGSMdyx M437BM= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc :x-sasl-enc; s=smtpout; bh=vzNni6JeFEZb5653s8QJLIQxuJg=; b=Udsvh y2qt3L0vNq2SfID29LAofI9HFgHD+vp9wZqr00+codIXQqPSa2KvJtBol9pM3+mq SP9OEknIDWfHa47hvFbSKPAppBD4AvISFjOTwKLCUeR5rNptpdM1HiskrxMVQR/t axt8vlOdnF8wXQfI+ibIudXYcp4gpC1x0KD0H4= X-Sasl-enc: mBMKoV3koF4RnwGeGK7l7EyjrcsgivXO1HU8fLOiayf0 1431359827 Received: from sjc-alcoop-8817.cisco.com (unknown [128.107.241.181]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 6B28A680175 for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 11:57:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Alissa Cooper Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4CC431F4-A496-4183-B35C-9953BD5749CE" Message-Id: <9AA8A2C6-538D-47D2-B64E-223204A9AE1C@cooperw.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 08:57:00 -0700 References: <0fb6887f5f964458a8f8e4c1d8db7fe2@TUCM03.TUECSP.UNICC.ORG> To: video-codec@ietf.org In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [video-codec] LS from ITU-T SG 16 X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 15:57:11 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4CC431F4-A496-4183-B35C-9953BD5749CE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Thanks all for your suggestions. I=92ve pulled in a slightly edited = version of the text from Adam, and made the changes suggested by David. = I=92ll share this with the IESG today. As Keith, Euee, and Monty suggest, there may well be need for further = outreach to get folks from other SDOs to come join this effort. We can = think about further liaising if we want (I think there are MPEG folks on = the new-work list where the chartering announcement was made but I=92m = not sure). But for this liaison response I think we should stick to = answering the question that was asked. Thanks, Alissa =97 Updated text: We are writing in response to the liaison statement received from ITU-T = SG 16 requesting clarification about the goals the proposed Internet = Video Codec (NETVC) working group. The NETVC charter uses the word = =93competitive=94 in the sense of being =93comparable" and "commercially = interesting to implement." That is, the goal of the working group is to = produce a video codec that will need to have comparable quality and = efficiency as well as have IPR licensing terms make it that commercially = interesting to deploy widely at the time when the NETVC work is = finalized. As the liaison statement notes, there are many concurrent ongoing = efforts to develop video codecs, and the NETVC work would merely be one = additional such effort. We do not view the proposed NETVC work as = harmful for interoperability, but rather as helpful, considering the = fact that at present the licensing environment creates barriers to full = interoperability in many cases. One key distinction of the NETVC work is = a differentiation between 'licensing terms that would enable broad use,' = which is a subjective distinction, and 'royalty-free licensing terms,' = which is a factual one. The combination of this goal with the goal of = achieving quality on par with modern, state-of-the-art codecs is what = makes NETVC distinctive. On May 8, 2015, at 6:48 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote: > The IESG has received a liaison statement from ITU-T SG 16 concerning = the netvc chartering effort: = . I=92ve begun drafting a = response and would like your input before I bring this back to the IESG. = Please suggest edits/additions: >=20 > --- >=20 > We are writing in response to the liaison statement received from = ITU-T SG 16 requesting clarification about the goals the proposed = Internet Video Codec (NETVC) working group. The NETVC charter uses the = word =93competitive=94 in the sense of =93comparable." That is, the goal = of the working group is to produce a codec whose quality and efficiency = are comparable to the video codecs in widespread use at the time when = the NETVC work is finalized. >=20 > As the liaison statement notes, there are many concurrent ongoing = efforts to develop video codecs, and the NETVC work would merely be one = additional such effort. We do not view the proposed NETVC work as = harmful for interoperability, but rather as helpful, considering the = fact that at present the licensing environment creates barriers to full = interoperability in many cases.=20 >=20 > --- >=20 > Thanks, > Alissa >=20 >=20 > Begin forwarded message: >=20 >> From: "TSB SG16 Secretariat, ITU" >> Subject: COM 16-LS 156 - Outgoing LS from ITU-T SG 16 (agreed by = correspondence, 4 May 2015) >> Date: May 4, 2015 at 8:11:34 AM PDT >> To: "'statements@ietf.org'" , "iesg@ietf.org" = >> Cc: "twiegand@ieee.org" , "Naito, Yushi \(TIES\)" = , "jill.boyce@intel.com" = , 'Gary Sullivan' , = "Campos, Simao" >>=20 >> Dear Sir/Madam, >> Kindly find attached the Liaison Statement COM16 - LS 156, with = title: =93LS on call for comments on an IETF WG on Internet Video Codec = (netvc) [to IETF IESG]=94, agreed by the ITU-T SG16 management by = correspondence on 4 May 2015. >>=20 >> Best regards, >>=20 >> =20 >> Rosa Angeles-Leon De Vivero >> Administrative Assistant for ITU-T Study Group 16, IPTV-GSI, JCA-IPTV = & IRG-AVA >> International Telecommunication Union >> Place des Nations, CH-1211 Geneva, Switzerland >> Tel : +41 22 730 5445 >> tsbsg16@itu.int >> tsbiptv@itu.int =20 >> www.itu.int & www.itu150.org > >> =20 >> =20 > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > video-codec mailing list > video-codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec --Apple-Mail=_4CC431F4-A496-4183-B35C-9953BD5749CE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Thanks all for your suggestions. I=92ve pulled = in a slightly edited version of the text from Adam, and made the changes = suggested by David. I=92ll share this with the IESG = today.

As Keith, Euee, and Monty suggest, there = may well be need for further outreach to get folks from other SDOs to = come join this effort. We can think about further liaising if we want (I = think there are MPEG folks on the new-work list where the chartering = announcement was made but I=92m not sure). But for this liaison response = I think we should stick to answering the question that was = asked.

Thanks,
Alissa

=97

Updated = text:

We are writing in response to the = liaison statement received from ITU-T SG 16 requesting clarification = about the goals the proposed Internet Video Codec (NETVC) working group. = The NETVC charter uses the word =93competitive=94 in the sense of being = =93comparable" and "commercially interesting to implement."  That = is, the goal of the working group is to produce a video codec that will = need to have comparable quality and efficiency as well as have IPR = licensing terms make it that commercially interesting to deploy widely = at the time when the NETVC work is = finalized.

As the liaison statement notes, = there are many concurrent ongoing efforts to develop video codecs, and = the NETVC work would merely be one additional such effort. We do not = view the proposed NETVC work as harmful for interoperability, but rather = as helpful, considering the fact that at present the licensing = environment creates barriers to full interoperability in many cases. One = key distinction of the NETVC work is a differentiation between = 'licensing terms that would enable broad use,' which is a subjective = distinction, and 'royalty-free licensing terms,' which is a factual one. = The combination of this goal with the goal of achieving quality on par = with modern, state-of-the-art codecs is what makes NETVC = distinctive.


On May 8, 2015, at = 6:48 AM, Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> = wrote:

The = IESG has received a liaison statement from ITU-T SG 16 concerning the = netvc chartering effort: <https://datatracker.ie= tf.org/liaison/1399/>. I=92ve begun drafting a response and would = like your input before I bring this back to the IESG. Please suggest = edits/additions:

---

We are = writing in response to the liaison statement received from ITU-T SG 16 = requesting clarification about the goals the proposed Internet Video = Codec (NETVC) working group. The NETVC charter uses the word = =93competitive=94 in the sense of =93comparable." That is, the goal of = the working group is to produce a codec whose quality and efficiency are = comparable to the video codecs in widespread use at the time when the = NETVC work is finalized.

As the liaison statement = notes, there are many concurrent ongoing efforts to develop video = codecs, and the NETVC work would merely be one additional such effort. = We do not view the proposed NETVC work as harmful for interoperability, = but rather as helpful, considering the fact that at present the = licensing environment creates barriers to full interoperability in many = cases. 

---

Thanks,=
Alissa


Begin forwarded = message:

From: "TSB SG16 Secretariat, ITU" <tsbsg16@itu.int>
Subject: = COM 16-LS 156 - = Outgoing LS from ITU-T SG 16 (agreed by correspondence, 4 May = 2015)
Date: May 4, 2015 at 8:11:34 AM = PDT
Cc: = "twiegand@ieee.org" <twiegand@ieee.org>, "Naito, = Yushi \(TIES\)" <yushi.naito@ties.itu.int>,= "jill.boyce@intel.com" = <jill.boyce@intel.com>, = 'Gary Sullivan' <garysull@microsoft.com>, = "Campos, Simao" <simao.campos@itu.int>

Dear Sir/Madam,
Kindly find attached the Liaison Statement = COM16 - LS 156, with title: =93LS on call for comments on an IETF WG on = Internet Video Codec (netvc) [to IETF IESG]=94, agreed by the ITU-T SG16 = management by correspondence on 4 May 2015.

Best regards,

 
Rosa = Angeles-Leon De Vivero
Administrative Assistant for ITU-T Study Group 16, IPTV-GSI, = JCA-IPTV & IRG-AVA
International = Telecommunication Union
Place = des Nations, CH-1211 Geneva, Switzerland
Tel : +41 22 730 = 5445
tsbsg16@itu.int
<= span><image001.jpg>
 
 
<l= s156-16.pdf>

_________________________________= ______________
video-codec mailing list
video-codec@ietf.org
https://w= ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec

= = --Apple-Mail=_4CC431F4-A496-4183-B35C-9953BD5749CE-- From nobody Mon May 11 11:05:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3C2A1ACE86 for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 11:05:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s9jKMqNFh8ZV for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 11:05:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68A641ACE51 for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 11:05:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA2E72097E for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 14:05:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend2 ([10.202.2.161]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 11 May 2015 14:05:52 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h= content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:to :x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=mesmtp; bh=sz8YHLeimruj66OAhAKzDeP7s0M =; b=RrrujJcLYP0jjSufvwAvWGi74YXXT5KtjSEKybA/xNIkY4WokJncpgAAAPh 5xqT9oUVv4FB4l2g88hKASHjMBdyjgk434tGb02PvfSXRu5h2ShYCS26vTkZR+q9 xzni0jwLBF+uZK+DHlApH+4m5TbfrpVSSt/FCl7cw+Bcjlss= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:message-id :mime-version:subject:to:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=smtpout; bh=sz 8YHLeimruj66OAhAKzDeP7s0M=; b=I85roP2B/OIO454NXiown6nXqKthGfYx5W mEOwTSbPVHqGuJWss9tv5Z6arPQznLMA6AddznLTk48hrIk1hmr8HsJ3qzeIOtdt Zo6OJhRcGXzD7CH1YfIc7+LuPUlmi66yMj3EF+ACpozUiyvzJecLzRwe63tNa8FH Uw2FzqRqg= X-Sasl-enc: WHJQRuPbNuECsgW+mpefuUxQOIo2l+G7aK7YkhavHREs 1431367552 Received: from sjc-alcoop-8817.cisco.com (unknown [128.107.241.181]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 530656801B0 for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 14:05:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Alissa Cooper Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9E368FDD-A155-45EC-85EB-402859212C5A" Message-Id: <814F9969-A9D0-4299-AD3C-4629D83804FA@cooperw.in> Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 11:05:42 -0700 To: video-codec@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: Subject: [video-codec] charter-ietf-netvc-00-03 X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 18:05:55 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9E368FDD-A155-45EC-85EB-402859212C5A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 I made a couple of charter changes based on AD comments during internal = review. Updated text is here: = http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/netvc/charter/ Changes made: s/Is competitive/Is competitive (in the sense of having comparable = performance)/ =97 This was mentioned by Stephen and also seems warranted given the LS = we received. Deleted the last sentence in deliverable #5. =97 This was mentioned by Barry and allows flexibility in case the WG = decides to publish test results in a format other than an RFC. =20 I did not make the additional change suggested by Stephen to remove the = word =93verifiable=94 in the paragraph about BCP 79 since that seemed = like an important characteristic for this group. The charter approval is on the May 14 IESG telechat agenda. Alissa --Apple-Mail=_9E368FDD-A155-45EC-85EB-402859212C5A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 I made = a couple of charter changes based on AD comments during internal review. = Updated text is here: http://datatracker.= ietf.org/wg/netvc/charter/

Changes = made:

s/Is competitive/Is competitive (in the = sense of having comparable performance)/
=97 This was = mentioned by Stephen and also seems warranted given the LS we = received.

Deleted the last sentence in = deliverable #5.
=97 This was mentioned by Barry and allows = flexibility in case the WG decides to publish test results in a format = other than an RFC.  

I did not make the = additional change suggested by Stephen to remove the word =93verifiable=94= in the paragraph about BCP 79 since that seemed like an important = characteristic for this group.

The charter = approval is on the May 14 IESG telechat = agenda.

Alissa

= --Apple-Mail=_9E368FDD-A155-45EC-85EB-402859212C5A-- From nobody Mon May 11 11:48:19 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6056B1ACECF for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 11:48:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ms7ka3sOlam4 for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 11:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yk0-x233.google.com (mail-yk0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95FF61ACED0 for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 11:47:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ykep21 with SMTP id p21so40063854yke.3 for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 11:47:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=dLJ6E+ZwBz6JiJM8/0dSZkwSgE+lx/pNxzAtnLpWNkY=; b=SzGDPWDJTe+6X5e5/FxmlJWSQvZnsFEfBdpgml+UrfDbrkbyBPyiFCgNx8UmJWpr1h GAYoTePHqAHHCke41EMaJmTnZFMIepIDT9YCOPj9v+nTjSZ2eAZgl88xq7qLV9MRoISU /6r2DpbLpXFwM2aR2XZzL9jrUCB3uL6l31Ls7hI3jGI+u//jsj+kyW5mIcf0Kknjj++9 AH2l2XF3L4iJD9Yp8LWGDAs23h4pA/4n2PhCJz+Nohc0ri1rNZAZ3m9wIQO2f1kgrzPs rFJ9jRe3M89XSWhl/HbBzbQOTFZdjlHi9ekr4GXC9cvi9eJj0+9r2hanwOJWYKmJGp0a wmwA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.236.28.79 with SMTP id f55mr11453937yha.151.1431370073985; Mon, 11 May 2015 11:47:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.13.247.71 with HTTP; Mon, 11 May 2015 11:47:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <814F9969-A9D0-4299-AD3C-4629D83804FA@cooperw.in> References: <814F9969-A9D0-4299-AD3C-4629D83804FA@cooperw.in> Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 11:47:53 -0700 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Alissa Cooper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: video-codec@ietf.org Subject: Re: [video-codec] charter-ietf-netvc-00-03 X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 18:48:17 -0000 On 11 May 2015 at 11:05, Alissa Cooper wrote: > s/Is competitive/Is competitive (in the sense of having comparable > performance)/ > =E2=80=94 This was mentioned by Stephen and also seems warranted given th= e LS we > received. Why not? Has comparable performance to current video codecs in widespread use. From nobody Mon May 11 11:51:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E3991A87BB for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 11:51:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mBkkpuY3efdu for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 11:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f171.google.com (mail-wi0-f171.google.com [209.85.212.171]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DAAF81A87B0 for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 11:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by widdi4 with SMTP id di4so118065518wid.0 for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 11:51:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=YE9mBV8aHuP2zctXpj6pbdzhzo1VSKxPIuebe44cAFc=; b=RAh14xEp3DlaBYkhygAW8i/oNwcpBMpnK0W771fveHdXNAuv8OTfaK11ke5xQUOQ6Z H5HrNllBNjaHsOE9qjMt0sqEWDLzrYR9z5bg6+y33i9kbhhOnTXAep6u5lmLazOLmu69 U7It86KwscOY9Qqut1mKD+WakG+MGv4Uxq7h44gDcTPoQeAfed+4VRxuyzbSMVccku87 rGq1lJN881OxmYQdudHR1hEBBFAu8iTna+rrAca6puy/P36A8+3y9GZ54oIjLeSA2SXQ tdcs7mxuCJ0f8ZEbKK1Xs9DYYDB2cj8wungXRPCP86orH/iu3+qT8fo9lkXKyrXRdv+y xFFg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkedis+jAtRspvgsVT74EeyDtA7mq2YhmWcj66M3uJ6eXPfPciaSmgKuCbM5yFb04kHe6oq X-Received: by 10.180.218.201 with SMTP id pi9mr23357244wic.53.1431370312579; Mon, 11 May 2015 11:51:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.27.205.87 with HTTP; Mon, 11 May 2015 11:51:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <814F9969-A9D0-4299-AD3C-4629D83804FA@cooperw.in> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 11:51:12 -0700 Message-ID: To: Martin Thomson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1134c59406139f0515d2df61 Archived-At: Cc: "video-codec@ietf.org" , Alissa Cooper Subject: Re: [video-codec] charter-ietf-netvc-00-03 X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 18:51:55 -0000 --001a1134c59406139f0515d2df61 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Or "comparable or better" On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 11:47 AM, Martin Thomson wrote: > On 11 May 2015 at 11:05, Alissa Cooper wrote: > > s/Is competitive/Is competitive (in the sense of having comparable > > performance)/ > > =E2=80=94 This was mentioned by Stephen and also seems warranted given = the LS we > > received. > > Why not? > > Has comparable performance to current video codecs in widespread use. > > _______________________________________________ > video-codec mailing list > video-codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec > --001a1134c59406139f0515d2df61 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Or "comparable or better"


On Mon, May 11, 201= 5 at 11:47 AM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> wrote:
On 11 May 201= 5 at 11:05, Alissa Cooper <alissa@c= ooperw.in> wrote:
> s/Is competitive/Is competitive (in the sense of having comparable
> performance)/
> =E2=80=94 This was mentioned by Stephen and also seems warranted given= the LS we
> received.

Why not?

Has comparable performance to current video codecs in widespread use.

_______________________________________________
video-codec mailing list
video-codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec

--001a1134c59406139f0515d2df61-- From nobody Mon May 11 12:07:52 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DDA81AD060 for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 12:07:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iyhPpHny1kUv for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 12:07:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x233.google.com (mail-lb0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A5A51AD067 for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 12:07:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbbzk7 with SMTP id zk7so101081619lbb.0 for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 12:07:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=orfcy2g1F4eY0vlkHFjA/7n4YnXXvmy77XmDFUD6XaM=; b=PmSQpYo4dqIAqnXC83J2aLJawbp2lnyQp+MklpR9NjDOTcIQF8d5qUcELpcYPBooFS 3702W186yo1s58jh5Moq954jVmca+msbuXnYu/JgW2fsQZWMp9jTMZQSHggxXtv8YAqr R4PKH3zfot2leNEuNdh3RxidpB75wF72R6OkS/2bT3fQdkwTJjM4NH0a+FQ+X+dfJpIP PC/yHmCmLOS/rDOfa3Fj8vVcmQS4Rfj2aJc0lDo4lAclfwB4uMycpVR3DxnhVkN+PrwG GIXRzrkZgWS6BI/AzWPJKSY0DkA5vD3n5g1Ljdyh4uDwwgouzuPQTE97sWDJ2qItSDoC zE5Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.12.68 with SMTP id w4mr9024165lbb.87.1431371267665; Mon, 11 May 2015 12:07:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.31.193 with HTTP; Mon, 11 May 2015 12:07:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <0fb6887f5f964458a8f8e4c1d8db7fe2@TUCM03.TUECSP.UNICC.ORG> <554CC71E.5000507@xiph.org> <00d701d089c5$b2540dc0$16fc2940$@gmail.com> <001801d08a2c$81b94060$852bc120$@gmail.com> <000801d08af1$7a6fc0c0$6f4f4240$@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 12:07:47 -0700 Message-ID: From: Monty Montgomery To: Mohammed Raad Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "video-codec@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [video-codec] LS from ITU-T SG 16 X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 19:07:51 -0000 > I would suggest that people who have invested their time and resources into > getting this working group started, focus on getting the technical work done > instead of going back to debates about where to do the work. +1. I don't think there's any actual debate as to where to do the work. That said, it was good to be reminded that however officially opposed/distraught/confused ISO/MPEG or ITU may be over video codec work happening in the IETF, we nonetheless likely have a substantial number of individual allies in those groups. Monty From nobody Mon May 11 14:45:40 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB9DF1A90AB for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 14:45:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XO616F0H_HoG for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 14:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pd0-x22b.google.com (mail-pd0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF2821A90A8 for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 14:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pdbqd1 with SMTP id qd1so156048656pdb.2 for ; Mon, 11 May 2015 14:45:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=uxxAMkeCEca/7V8Ihi5VAd+ZXrQsyKrVzHNM2QbzaVU=; b=M25KgQlSaOmgwQcBx++S8afbfhnVXxQDAvsfkGnOvHfMZsA2Je1XZnSBOQKfaxaXx4 9PRqm7maea7NIneSqXFdvlD5DV8U1Qvb8oRW7h7Cmy0tz+4Qh5OpLhOw7ZksMSimpNXg vUqs8KxNH5ketw4aT25L0WepYEJ1zX94Zc5bSABMxsizhiWptd0xhKVIadz77T0bjBy1 pvDqm8BKPTDTojfrGt2R9ycoTUpO1IpG2k5nzLZHC5CuEaqCRcardxuCtLDKerRUWgV8 ACjhXizGZiI4POgKZewdm9jit9u4Zb/xIgAWLkVq63vL3GVxXO5g/USqlbFutSordf2J f37g== X-Received: by 10.70.134.35 with SMTP id ph3mr22117655pdb.91.1431380735606; Mon, 11 May 2015 14:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:9:700:146a:10d7:705f:b485:9a56? ([2601:9:700:146a:10d7:705f:b485:9a56]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ff10sm14077901pab.13.2015.05.11.14.45.33 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 11 May 2015 14:45:34 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9D951189-7188-48EA-94EB-BFA462D2FD6E" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2098\)) From: Rob Glidden In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 14:45:32 -0700 Message-Id: References: <0fb6887f5f964458a8f8e4c1d8db7fe2@TUCM03.TUECSP.UNICC.ORG> <554CC71E.5000507@xiph.org> <00d701d089c5$b2540dc0$16fc2940$@gmail.com> <001801d08a2c$81b94060$852bc120$@gmail.com> <000801d08af1$7a6fc0c0$6f4f4240$@gmail.com> To: Monty Montgomery X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2098) Archived-At: Cc: "video-codec@ietf.org" , Mohammed Raad Subject: Re: [video-codec] LS from ITU-T SG 16 X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 21:45:39 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9D951189-7188-48EA-94EB-BFA462D2FD6E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I agree with Mohammed. What is needed is work product, not debate. Specifically, IPR = documentation and reproducible tests, and the inputs to get to these. To facilitate that, a quick search of the public ISO SC29 document = register at http://kikaku.itscj.ipsj.or.jp/sc29/ = shows latest MPEG status in the = February public meeting resolutions at https://www.itscj.ipsj.or.jp/sc29/open/29view/29n14764c.htm = The register also seems to point to the latest relevant January vote by = the governing national bodies of SC29, locked I assume by standard ISO = procedure. Relevant selections copied below for convenience, but easy enough to use = the above links directly. Rob 3.12 Part 31 =E2=80=93 Video coding for browsers 3.12.1 The Video subgroup recommends approval of the following = documents No. Title TBP Available =20 ISO/IEC 14496-31 =E2=80=93 Video coding for browsers =20 =20 15125 Draft Disposition of Comments on ISO/IEC DIS 14496-31 N 15/02/20 15126 Draft Text in Preparation for ISO/IEC 2nd DIS 14496-31 Video Coding for = Browsers Y 15/02/20 3.13 During its 111th meeting, WG11 was informed, through the = 14496-31 DIS ballot results, that some national bodies have requested = actions regarding a Type-3 declaration made against the DIS text and, = through contribution M35857 sourced by a Nokia expert, of a list of = relevant patents. As the list apparently relates to both encoder and = decoder, Nokia is kindly requested to provide information that = specifically applies to ISO/IEC 14496-31, so that appropriate action can = be taken for potential modification of a re-issued DIS. =E2=80=94=E2=80=94 15.6 Internet Video Coding 15.6.1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0The Video subgroup recommends = approval of the following documents <> No. Title TBP Available =20 Explorations =E2=80=93 Internet Video Coding =20 =20 15159 Working Draft 5 of Internet Video Coding (IVC) Y 15/03/06 15160 Internet Video Coding Test Model (ITM) v 12.0 Y 15/03/13 15161 Description of IVC Exploration Experiments N 15/02/20 15162 Collection of information related to IVC technologies N 15/02/27 15.6.2 The Video subgroup notes that significant progress was made = in the performance of ITM, and in terms of rate/PSNR performance, ITM11 = is reported to be closer to AVC High profile, when compared to previous = investigations that were documented in N14240 and N14989. Since new = tools adopted to ITM12 are expected to give even more improvement, it is = planned to perform another comparison of the visual quality of ITM and = AVC HP at the 112th meeting. If it is shown that IVC reaches visual = quality that is not distinguishable from AVC HP, it is anticipated that = a progression into a formal standardization project could be started.=20 =E2=80=94=E2=80=94 Access Level Doc.No. (Replaces) Date Posted Title Source Status Doc Type = File Issue No. Due Date ACT ID Project No. Name Size(KB) 14714 =C2=A0115.2 = 115.2 2015-01-15 Summary of Voting on ISO/IEC DIS 14496-31: = Information technology -- Coding of audio-visual objects -- Part 31: = Video coding for browsers=20 ISO/IEC ITTF Ballot result to be reviewed by WG 11 [Requested action: = WG 11 is requested to prepare a disposition of comments report, a = revised text and a recommendation on further processing of this work = item.] Summary of Voting 29n14714c.htm = 29n147141.doc = 29n14714att.zip = -- 72.2 104.2 1600 > On May 11, 2015, at 12:07 PM, Monty Montgomery = wrote: >=20 >> I would suggest that people who have invested their time and = resources into >> getting this working group started, focus on getting the technical = work done >> instead of going back to debates about where to do the work. >=20 > +1. I don't think there's any actual debate as to where to do the > work. That said, it was good to be reminded that however officially > opposed/distraught/confused ISO/MPEG or ITU may be over video codec > work happening in the IETF, we nonetheless likely have a substantial > number of individual allies in those groups. >=20 > Monty >=20 > _______________________________________________ > video-codec mailing list > video-codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec --Apple-Mail=_9D951189-7188-48EA-94EB-BFA462D2FD6E Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html"; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2AC1CC56-49DF-40C3-B7CA-0369C49B8281" --Apple-Mail=_2AC1CC56-49DF-40C3-B7CA-0369C49B8281 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I agree with Mohammed.

What is needed is work product, not debate. =  Specifically, IPR documentation and reproducible tests, and the = inputs to get to these.

To facilitate that, a quick search of the public ISO SC29 = document register at http://kikaku.itscj.ipsj.or.jp/sc29/ shows latest = MPEG status in the February public meeting resolutions at

https://www.itscj.ipsj.or.jp/sc29/open/29view/29n14764c.htm=

The register = also seems to point to the latest relevant January vote by the governing = national bodies of SC29, locked I assume by standard ISO = procedure.

Relevant selections copied below for convenience, but easy = enough to use the above links directly.

Rob

3.12      Part 31 =E2=80=93 Video coding for browsers

3.12.1      The Video subgroup = recommends approval of the following documents

No.

Title

TBP

Available

 

ISO/IEC = 14496-31 =E2=80=93 Video coding = for browsers

 

 

15125

Draft Disposition of Comments = on ISO/IEC DIS 14496-31

N

15/02/20

15126

Draft Text in Preparation for = ISO/IEC 2nd DIS 14496-31 Video Coding for Browsers

Y

15/02/20

3.13      During its 111th meeting, WG11 was informed, = through the 14496-31 DIS ballot results, that some national bodies have = requested actions regarding a Type-3 declaration made against the DIS = text and, through contribution M35857 sourced by a Nokia expert, of a = list of relevant patents. As the list apparently relates to both encoder = and decoder, Nokia is kindly requested to provide information that = specifically applies to ISO/IEC 14496-31, so that appropriate action can = be taken for potential modification of a re-issued DIS.


=E2=80=94=E2=80=94

15.6      Internet = Video Coding

15.6.1      The Video subgroup = recommends approval of the following documents

No.

Title

TBP

Available

 

Explorations = =E2=80=93 Internet Video = Coding

 

 

15159

Working Draft 5 of Internet = Video Coding (IVC)

Y

15/03/06

15160

Internet Video Coding Test = Model (ITM) v 12.0

Y

15/03/13

15161

Description of IVC = Exploration Experiments

N

15/02/20

15162

Collection of information = related to IVC technologies

N

15/02/27

15.6.2      The Video subgroup = notes that significant progress was made in the performance of ITM, and = in terms of rate/PSNR performance, ITM11 is reported to be closer to AVC = High profile, when compared to previous investigations that were = documented in N14240 and N14989. Since new tools adopted to ITM12 are = expected to give even more improvement, it is planned to perform another = comparison of the visual quality of ITM and AVC HP at the 112th meeting. If it is shown that IVC reaches visual = quality that is not distinguishable from AVC HP, it is anticipated that = a progression into a formal standardization project could be = started. 

=E2=80=94=E2=80=94

Access
 Level
Doc.No.
(Replaces)		Date PostedTitleSourceStatusDoc TypeFileIssue = No.
Due Date
ACT ID		Project No.NameSize(KB)
3D"Def"14714


3D"29n14714.zip"&nbs= p;115.2		2015-01-15Summary of Voting on ISO/IEC DIS 14496-31: = Information technology -- Coding of audio-visual objects -- Part 31: = Video coding for browsers 
ISO/IEC ITTFBallot result to be reviewed by WG 11 [Requested = action: WG 11 is requested to prepare a disposition of comments report, = a revised text and a recommendation on further processing of this work = item.]Summary of = Voting29n14714c.htm
29n147141.doc
29n14714att.zip
--
72.2
104.2
1600



On May 11, 2015, at 12:07 PM, Monty Montgomery <xiphmont@gmail.com> = wrote:

I would suggest that = people who have invested their time and resources into
getting this working group started, focus on getting the = technical work done
instead of going back to debates about = where to do the work.

+1. =  I don't think there's any actual debate as to where to do the
work.  That said, it was good to be reminded that = however officially
opposed/distraught/confused ISO/MPEG or = ITU may be over video codec
work happening in the IETF, we = nonetheless likely have a substantial
number of individual = allies in those groups.

Monty

_______________________________________________
video-codec mailing list
video-codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec

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[82.123.159.44]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id yr1sm27439886wjc.37.2015.05.12.05.07.58 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 12 May 2015 05:07:59 -0700 (PDT) From: "Euee S. Jang" To: "'Rob Glidden'" , "'Monty Montgomery'" References: <0fb6887f5f964458a8f8e4c1d8db7fe2@TUCM03.TUECSP.UNICC.ORG> <554CC71E.5000507@xiph.org> <00d701d089c5$b2540dc0$16fc2940$@gmail.com> <001801d08a2c$81b94060$852bc120$@gmail.com> <000801d08af1$7a6fc0c0$6f4f4240$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 14:07:58 +0200 Message-ID: <008e01d08cac$49804130$dc80c390$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_008F_01D08CBD.0D15BB60" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 15.0 thread-index: AQD75L7LGv+rhvwLhQI5Qf8VAdbiRQEBzvJYAUGeJF4BhNK89AK7RYstAmvO9H4CreGuEgG+5eR5AQeGmuMBDlfTygH76hbcnpYefEA= Content-Language: ko Archived-At: Cc: video-codec@ietf.org, 'Mohammed Raad' Subject: Re: [video-codec] LS from ITU-T SG 16 X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 12:08:05 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008F_01D08CBD.0D15BB60 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0090_01D08CBD.0D15E270" ------=_NextPart_001_0090_01D08CBD.0D15E270 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To make a long story short, the RF standard discussion in MPEG is not = dead. As a person from MPEG, I am really glad to see all these = discussions happening in IETF.=20 =20 One way or another, we need to grow this voice and to make it heard = continuously.=20 =20 Euee =20 From: video-codec [mailto:video-codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rob = Glidden Sent: Monday, May 11, 2015 11:46 PM To: Monty Montgomery Cc: video-codec@ietf.org; Mohammed Raad Subject: Re: [video-codec] LS from ITU-T SG 16 =20 I agree with Mohammed. =20 What is needed is work product, not debate. Specifically, IPR = documentation and reproducible tests, and the inputs to get to these. =20 To facilitate that, a quick search of the public ISO SC29 document = register at http://kikaku.itscj.ipsj.or.jp/sc29/ shows latest MPEG = status in the February public meeting resolutions at =20 https://www.itscj.ipsj.or.jp/sc29/open/29view/29n14764c.htm =20 The register also seems to point to the latest relevant January vote by = the governing national bodies of SC29, locked I assume by standard ISO = procedure. =20 Relevant selections copied below for convenience, but easy enough to use = the above links directly. =20 Rob 3.12 Part 31 =E2=80=93 Video coding for browsers 3.12.1 The Video subgroup recommends approval of the following = documents No. Title TBP Available =20 ISO/IEC 14496-31 =E2=80=93 Video coding for browsers =20 =20 15125 Draft Disposition of Comments on ISO/IEC DIS 14496-31 N 15/02/20 15126 Draft Text in Preparation for ISO/IEC 2nd DIS 14496-31 Video Coding for = Browsers Y 15/02/20 3.13 During its 111th meeting, WG11 was informed, through the = 14496-31 DIS ballot results, that some national bodies have requested = actions regarding a Type-3 declaration made against the DIS text and, = through contribution M35857 sourced by a Nokia expert, of a list of = relevant patents. As the list apparently relates to both encoder and = decoder, Nokia is kindly requested to provide information that = specifically applies to ISO/IEC 14496-31, so that appropriate action can = be taken for potential modification of a re-issued DIS. =20 =E2=80=94=E2=80=94 =20 15.6 Internet Video Coding 15.6.1 The Video subgroup recommends approval of the following = documents No. Title TBP Available =20 Explorations =E2=80=93 Internet Video Coding =20 =20 15159 Working Draft 5 of Internet Video Coding (IVC) Y 15/03/06 15160 Internet Video Coding Test Model (ITM) v 12.0 Y 15/03/13 15161 Description of IVC Exploration Experiments N 15/02/20 15162 Collection of information related to IVC technologies N 15/02/27 15.6.2 The Video subgroup notes that significant progress was made = in the performance of ITM, and in terms of rate/PSNR performance, ITM11 = is reported to be closer to AVC High profile, when compared to previous = investigations that were documented in N14240 and N14989. Since new = tools adopted to ITM12 are expected to give even more improvement, it is = planned to perform another comparison of the visual quality of ITM and = AVC HP at the 112th meeting. If it is shown that IVC reaches visual = quality that is not distinguishable from AVC HP, it is anticipated that = a progression into a formal standardization project could be started.=20 =E2=80=94=E2=80=94 =20 Access Level Doc.No. (Replaces) Date Posted Title Source Status Doc Type File Issue No. Due Date ACT ID Project No. Name Size(KB) 14714 115.2 2015-01-15 Summary of Voting on ISO/IEC DIS 14496-31: Information technology -- = Coding of audio-visual objects -- Part 31: Video coding for browsers=20 ISO/IEC ITTF Ballot result to be reviewed by WG 11 [Requested action: WG 11 is = requested to prepare a disposition of comments report, a revised text = and a recommendation on further processing of this work item.] Summary of Voting 29n14714c.htm = =20 29n147141.doc = =20 29n14714att.zip = =20 -- 72.2 104.2 1600 =09 =20 =20 =20 On May 11, 2015, at 12:07 PM, Monty Montgomery > wrote: =20 I would suggest that people who have invested their time and resources = into getting this working group started, focus on getting the technical work = done instead of going back to debates about where to do the work. +1. I don't think there's any actual debate as to where to do the work. That said, it was good to be reminded that however officially opposed/distraught/confused ISO/MPEG or ITU may be over video codec work happening in the IETF, we nonetheless likely have a substantial number of individual allies in those groups. Monty _______________________________________________ video-codec mailing list video-codec@ietf.org =20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec =20 ------=_NextPart_001_0090_01D08CBD.0D15E270 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

To make a long story short, the RF = standard discussion in MPEG is not dead. As a person from MPEG, I am = really glad to see all these discussions happening in IETF. =

 

One way or another, we need to grow = this voice and to make it heard continuously.

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Euee

 

<= div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt = 0cm 0cm 0cm'>

From:<= /b> video-codec = [mailto:video-codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rob = Glidden
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2015 11:46 PM
To: = Monty Montgomery
Cc: video-codec@ietf.org; Mohammed = Raad
Subject: Re: [video-codec] LS from ITU-T SG = 16

 

I agree with Mohammed.

 

What is needed is work product, not = debate.  Specifically, IPR documentation and reproducible tests, = and the inputs to get to these.

 

To facilitate that, a quick search = of the public ISO SC29 document register at http://kikaku.itscj.ipsj.or= .jp/sc29/ shows latest MPEG status in the February public = meeting resolutions at

 

 

The register also seems to point to = the latest relevant January vote by the governing national bodies of = SC29, locked I assume by standard ISO = procedure.

 

Relevant selections copied below = for convenience, but easy enough to use the above links = directly.

 

Rob

3.12      Part 31 =E2=80=93 Video coding for = browsers

3.12.1      The Video subgroup recommends approval of the = following documents

No.

Title

TBP

Available

 

ISO/IEC 14496-31 =E2=80=93 Video coding for = browsers

 

 

15125

Draft Disposition of Comments on ISO/IEC DIS = 14496-31

N

15/02/20

15126

Draft Text in Preparation for ISO/IEC 2nd DIS 14496-31 = Video Coding for Browsers

Y

15/02/20

3.13      During its 111th meeting, WG11 was informed, = through the 14496-31 DIS ballot results, that some national bodies have = requested actions regarding a Type-3 declaration made against the DIS = text and, through contribution M35857 sourced by a Nokia expert, of a = list of relevant patents. As the list apparently relates to both encoder = and decoder, Nokia is kindly requested to provide information that = specifically applies to ISO/IEC 14496-31, so that appropriate action can = be taken for potential modification of a re-issued DIS.

 

=E2=80=94=E2=80=94

 

15.6      Internet Video Coding

15.6.1      The Video subgroup recommends approval of the = following documents

No.

Title

TBP

Available

 

Explorations =E2=80=93 Internet Video = Coding

 

 

15159

Working Draft 5 of Internet Video Coding = (IVC)

Y

15/03/06

15160

Internet Video Coding Test Model (ITM) v = 12.0

Y

15/03/13

15161

Description of IVC Exploration Experiments

N

15/02/20

15162

Collection of information related to IVC = technologies

N

15/02/27

15.6.2      The Video subgroup notes that significant progress = was made in the performance of ITM, and in terms of rate/PSNR = performance, ITM11 is reported to be closer to AVC High profile, when = compared to previous investigations that were documented in N14240 and = N14989. Since new tools adopted to ITM12 are expected to give even more = improvement, it is planned to perform another comparison of the visual = quality of ITM and AVC HP at the 112th meeting. If it is = shown that IVC reaches visual quality that is not distinguishable from = AVC HP, it is anticipated that a progression into a formal = standardization project could be = started. 

=E2=80=94=E2=80=94

 

<= tr><= tr><= td style=3D'border:none;padding:.6pt .6pt .6pt .6pt'>

Access
 Level=
Doc.No.
(Replaces)

Date = Posted

Title

Source<= span lang=3DEN-US = style=3D'font-family:"Times",serif'>

Status<= span lang=3DEN-US = style=3D'font-family:"Times",serif'>

Doc = Type

File

Issue = No.

Due = Date
ACT = ID

Project = No.

Name

Size(KB)

3DDef14714


3D29n14714.zip 115.2

2015-01-15

Summary of Voting on = ISO/IEC DIS 14496-31: Information technology -- Coding of audio-visual = objects -- Part 31: Video coding for browsers 

ISO/IEC = ITTF

Ballot result to be = reviewed by WG 11 [Requested action: WG 11 is requested to prepare a = disposition of comments report, a revised text and a recommendation on = further processing of this work item.]

Summary of = Voting

29n14= 714c.htm
29n14= 7141.doc
29n= 14714att.zip

--
72.2
104.2

1600

 

 

 

On May 11, 2015, at 12:07 PM, Monty = Montgomery <xiphmont@gmail.com> = wrote:

 

I would suggest that people who = have invested their time and resources into
getting this working = group started, focus on getting the technical work done
instead of = going back to debates about where to do the = work.


+1.  I don't think there's any actual debate as to = where to do the
work.  That said, it was good to be reminded = that however officially
opposed/distraught/confused ISO/MPEG or ITU = may be over video codec
work happening in the IETF, we nonetheless = likely have a substantial
number of individual allies in those = groups.

Monty

_____________________________________________= __
video-codec mailing list
video-codec@ietf.org
https://www.ie= tf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec

 

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(Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-netvc/ There are no remarks associated with this position. From nobody Tue May 12 22:38:25 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 576AB1AC3CE; Tue, 12 May 2015 22:38:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m7t_Fklpk4IW; Tue, 12 May 2015 22:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 440991AC3C8; Tue, 12 May 2015 22:38:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Spencer Dawkins" To: "The IESG" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.0.2.p3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20150513053822.28819.92069.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 22:38:22 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: video-codec@ietf.org Subject: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 05:38:23 -0000 Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: Yes When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-netvc/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't know if the cat is too far out of the bag for this to matter, but "1. Is competitive (in the sense of having comparable performance) with current video codecs in widespread use." has already piqued the interest of our dear friends at another SDO. Is it possible to pick a less interesting word than "competitive" here and elsewhere in the charter? From nobody Wed May 13 05:20:59 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E94D11A8829; Wed, 13 May 2015 05:20:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4h6zE931tAiE; Wed, 13 May 2015 05:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.86.75]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A1D11A87E6; Wed, 13 May 2015 05:20:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1350; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1431519656; x=1432729256; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=TGdoJKxr/9l7dWopsJqAtLHWW1/4pRf0yhO+PWk/veY=; b=VBVzPuXCW01aKGGudDEgwpgQAtnfmXg4rG7Zk/HjayBWKEvNLjVbT/4u 0Ec1NUsPVpqAUvz/Mz8Gz9ajIrBMqPa4tJMOBMm1b1bkvK7kidEMvsVuA ZXg/rFf5HtWPeoJYCTzxOAL5HQvJzzadc9i9V9FCktyfVxTEJ5br3qpMB Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0ATBQAZQVNV/40NJK1cgw9UXsZeCoYFAoE5TAEBAQEBAYELhCEBAQQBAQE3NAsQAgEINhAhBgslAgQOBYgXAxINwncNhHwBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQETBIs6gk2BVREBHjMHgxeBFgWGYot0hCeEdIFVgSWDY4p4hnYjYYFZgT1vgQyBOgEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.13,420,1427760000"; d="scan'208";a="419414911" Received: from alln-core-8.cisco.com ([173.36.13.141]) by rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 May 2015 12:20:55 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x03.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x03.cisco.com [173.37.183.77]) by alln-core-8.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t4DCKtj7006995 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 13 May 2015 12:20:55 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([169.254.4.228]) by xhc-rcd-x03.cisco.com ([173.37.183.77]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Wed, 13 May 2015 07:20:55 -0500 From: "Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" To: Spencer Dawkins Thread-Topic: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHQjT8M+kfRi8Fw7kWNyDAardN1Jp151AZv Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 12:20:54 +0000 Message-ID: <62B9FAA5-F616-440A-BFEF-36BA07822889@cisco.com> References: <20150513053822.28819.92069.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20150513053822.28819.92069.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "video-codec@ietf.org" , The IESG Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 12:20:58 -0000 I support removing "competitive" to avoid any misinterpretation. Since we m= ean "comparable", we should just say so directly rather than parentheticall= y. Mo On May 13, 2015, at 1:38 AM, Spencer Dawkins wrote: Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: Yes When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-netvc/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't know if the cat is too far out of the bag for this to matter, but "1. Is competitive (in the sense of having comparable performance) with current video codecs in widespread use." has already piqued the interest of our dear friends at another SDO. Is it possible to pick a less interesting word than "competitive" here and elsewhere in the charter? _______________________________________________ video-codec mailing list video-codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec From nobody Wed May 13 06:29:30 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E172B1ACAD5; Wed, 13 May 2015 06:29:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B0wccCBt_qxK; Wed, 13 May 2015 06:29:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpida-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DCF141ACC72; Wed, 13 May 2015 06:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.42]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 86883EB0FB7AB; Wed, 13 May 2015 13:29:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.112]) by fr712usmtp2.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id t4DDSpcZ032423 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 13 May 2015 15:29:18 +0200 Received: from FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.7.203]) by FR711WXCHHUB02.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.112]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Wed, 13 May 2015 15:29:01 +0200 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: "Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" , Spencer Dawkins Thread-Topic: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHQjT8M+kfRi8Fw7kWNyDAardN1Jp151AZvgAAQ2gA= Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 13:29:00 +0000 Message-ID: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B69714968@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <20150513053822.28819.92069.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <62B9FAA5-F616-440A-BFEF-36BA07822889@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <62B9FAA5-F616-440A-BFEF-36BA07822889@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.38] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "video-codec@ietf.org" , The IESG Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 13:29:27 -0000 I do not believe that we do mean the same. This got a little discussion in the BOF, but I see liitle point in developi= ng a codec where the only selling point is a claimed royalty free, somethin= g that can never be guaranteed.=20 Therefore I certainly would like to see the aim of development to be someth= ing that is in some aspect better, and thus competitive, rather than just t= he same, as in comparable. Maybe we can find another word, but I am unhappy= with comparable. Keith > -----Original Message----- > From: video-codec [mailto:video-codec-bounces@ietf.org] On=20 > Behalf Of Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) > Sent: 13 May 2015 13:21 > To: Spencer Dawkins > Cc: video-codec@ietf.org; The IESG > Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on=20 > charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT) >=20 > I support removing "competitive" to avoid any=20 > misinterpretation. Since we mean "comparable", we should just=20 > say so directly rather than parenthetically. >=20 > Mo >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On May 13, 2015, at 1:38 AM, Spencer Dawkins=20 > wrote: >=20 > Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: Yes >=20 > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and=20 > reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines.=20 > (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) >=20 >=20 >=20 > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-netvc/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > I don't know if the cat is too far out of the bag for this to=20 > matter, but >=20 >=20 > "1. Is competitive (in the sense of having comparable=20 > performance) with current video codecs in widespread use." >=20 > has already piqued the interest of our dear friends at=20 > another SDO. Is it possible to pick a less interesting word=20 > than "competitive" here and elsewhere in the charter? >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > video-codec mailing list > video-codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec >=20 > _______________________________________________ > video-codec mailing list > video-codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec > = From nobody Wed May 13 06:32:43 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 755891ACCF4 for ; Wed, 13 May 2015 06:32:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q2jmfkfX9gcc for ; Wed, 13 May 2015 06:32:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f173.google.com (mail-wi0-f173.google.com [209.85.212.173]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F5181ACCF6 for ; Wed, 13 May 2015 06:32:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by widdi4 with SMTP id di4so198831817wid.0 for ; Wed, 13 May 2015 06:32:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=xdmecsRO863AlsMTi3WZj2DFEJrZm2SxkqgXWyWrUMQ=; b=PqwXrSbIwl53/lhVuG3m2QpmJvtSXlHyS8Z3acqse1dre2tpI7nTP0jSulUNn5R0ch Wxj9tlYHxjrcuYxm5bqYohSSRRH533xojUxdXJy71s0Kg6UChMRqw0J91NZufcsO6e4i TTvqn10VpVEvxeWn6H1iJRFNp5OyosrqHC+ynonzZC5LtBR3kQ9OBQW7MITrhsVXUvBc 1vKGz0JhGGDMG0hnD7mZY7c2JONpvleKkEXypdqczZ5ExVxMbfowL3oXgPHsCCPXSss9 GTPFOz9eK14zjth3dhK1wvkPV0DrUDxtbThLu/u+4dGgmt5VMJloxXE56WBbBLgrEvoV pX8w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlmioeRwJZcUrWEhDZYf23xgzv9PCi7/XTY9TPCKS477K6F857NegIeEyFeAoyPhlmtD88W X-Received: by 10.194.59.79 with SMTP id x15mr39052737wjq.81.1431523958854; Wed, 13 May 2015 06:32:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.27.205.87 with HTTP; Wed, 13 May 2015 06:31:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B69714968@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <20150513053822.28819.92069.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <62B9FAA5-F616-440A-BFEF-36BA07822889@cisco.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B69714968@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 06:31:58 -0700 Message-ID: To: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b8737ae0e2a2e0515f6a5e5 Archived-At: Cc: The IESG , "video-codec@ietf.org" , "Mo Zanaty \(mzanaty\)" Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 13:32:42 -0000 --047d7b8737ae0e2a2e0515f6a5e5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I honestly don't care about this, but how about "having competitive performance" -Ekr On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 6:29 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) < keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote: > I do not believe that we do mean the same. > > This got a little discussion in the BOF, but I see liitle point in > developing a codec where the only selling point is a claimed royalty free, > something that can never be guaranteed. > > Therefore I certainly would like to see the aim of development to be > something that is in some aspect better, and thus competitive, rather than > just the same, as in comparable. Maybe we can find another word, but I am > unhappy with comparable. > > Keith > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: video-codec [mailto:video-codec-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) > > Sent: 13 May 2015 13:21 > > To: Spencer Dawkins > > Cc: video-codec@ietf.org; The IESG > > Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on > > charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT) > > > > I support removing "competitive" to avoid any > > misinterpretation. Since we mean "comparable", we should just > > say so directly rather than parenthetically. > > > > Mo > > > > > > > > > > On May 13, 2015, at 1:38 AM, Spencer Dawkins > > wrote: > > > > Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for > > charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: Yes > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and > > reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. > > (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-netvc/ > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > COMMENT: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > I don't know if the cat is too far out of the bag for this to > > matter, but > > > > > > "1. Is competitive (in the sense of having comparable > > performance) with current video codecs in widespread use." > > > > has already piqued the interest of our dear friends at > > another SDO. Is it possible to pick a less interesting word > > than "competitive" here and elsewhere in the charter? > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > video-codec mailing list > > video-codec@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec > > > > _______________________________________________ > > video-codec mailing list > > video-codec@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec > > > _______________________________________________ > video-codec mailing list > video-codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec > --047d7b8737ae0e2a2e0515f6a5e5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I honestly don't care about this, but how about "= having competitive performance"

-Ekr

=

On We= d, May 13, 2015 at 6:29 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) <keith.drage= @alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
I do not believe that we do mean the same.

This got a little discussion in the BOF, but I see liitle point in developi= ng a codec where the only selling point is a claimed royalty free, somethin= g that can never be guaranteed.

Therefore I certainly would like to see the aim of development to be someth= ing that is in some aspect better, and thus competitive, rather than just t= he same, as in comparable. Maybe we can find another word, but I am unhappy= with comparable.

Keith

> -----Original Message-----
> From: video-codec [mailto:video-codec-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
> Sent: 13 May 2015 13:21
> To: Spencer Dawkins
> Cc: video-codec@ietf.org; = The IESG
> Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on
> charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT)
>
> I support removing "competitive" to avoid any
> misinterpretation. Since we mean "comparable", we should jus= t
> say so directly rather than parenthetically.
>
> Mo
>
>
>
>
> On May 13, 2015, at 1:38 AM, Spencer Dawkins
> <spencerdawkins.ie= tf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for
> charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: Yes
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and
> reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines.
> (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-netvc/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
>
> I don't know if the cat is too far out of the bag for this to
> matter, but
>
>
> "1. Is competitive (in the sense of having comparable
> performance) with current video codecs in widespread use."
>
> has already piqued the interest of our dear friends at
> another SDO. Is it possible to pick a less interesting word
> than "competitive" here and elsewhere in the charter?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> video-codec mailing list
> video-codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec
>
> _______________________________________________
> video-codec mailing list
> video-codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec
>
_______________________________________________
video-codec mailing list
video-codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec

--047d7b8737ae0e2a2e0515f6a5e5-- From nobody Wed May 13 07:30:15 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85F0D1A877E; Wed, 13 May 2015 07:30:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QZvOjwIqWqBq; Wed, 13 May 2015 07:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-2.cisco.com (alln-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.142.89]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CED2A1B2CDE; Wed, 13 May 2015 07:29:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=9745; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1431527399; x=1432736999; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=jnG/AFTxtdoSwC5l/YjoYdk7zV/sXjoDnoWK/OHLCjg=; b=a0gUIwCszi1i+XUnYi61msnjLBFPIbCd3SIFMhyRRq6cSxeVZAt4jJTw xJ7d2y77UfDvOciWifuTy0IiXNTkE211j4M/zjfEK5OWd60IHTxiSFr/o RaolGrRQmt4rtgNY+//5e+A6M9wtz8CeM0ab2fkuUDDm6ZmMWMDbLpFqh E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0BZBABcXlNV/4QNJK1cgkVKVF4GxQEJgU4BCYYFAoE3OBQBAQEBAQEBgQqEIAEBAQQBAQFrCwwEAgEIDgMEAQEBJwchBgsUCQgCBA4FiBcDEg3DIw2EfAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARMEizqCTYFVEQFNBAcGhCcFhmKLdIQnhHSBVYElg2OKeIZ2I2GBWYE9b4EMOYEBAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.13,421,1427760000"; d="scan'208,217";a="149756398" Received: from alln-core-10.cisco.com ([173.36.13.132]) by alln-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 May 2015 14:29:58 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x13.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x13.cisco.com [173.37.183.87]) by alln-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t4DETvwv001618 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 13 May 2015 14:29:57 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([169.254.4.228]) by xhc-rcd-x13.cisco.com ([173.37.183.87]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Wed, 13 May 2015 09:29:57 -0500 From: "Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" To: Eric Rescorla , "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" Thread-Topic: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHQjYlIVT/wuZLEEESWSyec+opcRg== Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 14:29:56 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20150513053822.28819.92069.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <62B9FAA5-F616-440A-BFEF-36BA07822889@cisco.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B69714968@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.9.150325 x-originating-ip: [64.100.32.216] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D178CB4D4D77Bmzanatyciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "video-codec@ietf.org" , The IESG Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 14:30:05 -0000 --_000_D178CB4D4D77Bmzanatyciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Comparable and competitive express the same goal with slightly different co= nnotations. Comparable sounds more neutral / objective. Neither express =93= outperform=94 as Keith suggests. There was indeed BoF discussion around the= desire to =93outperform=94, but no consensus to require this in the charte= r, hence =93competitive=94. I prefer =93Has comparable performance=94, just to avoid any misinterpretat= ion or connotation of =93Is competitive=94. But I don=92t think either lang= uage will really matter all that much. Concerns in other SDOs are unlikely = to be alleviated with any charter language. Mo On 5/13/15, 9:31 AM, Eric Rescorla > wrot= e: I honestly don't care about this, but how about "having competitive perform= ance" -Ekr On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 6:29 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) > wrote: I do not believe that we do mean the same. This got a little discussion in the BOF, but I see liitle point in developi= ng a codec where the only selling point is a claimed royalty free, somethin= g that can never be guaranteed. Therefore I certainly would like to see the aim of development to be someth= ing that is in some aspect better, and thus competitive, rather than just t= he same, as in comparable. Maybe we can find another word, but I am unhappy= with comparable. Keith > -----Original Message----- > From: video-codec [mailto:video-codec-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) > Sent: 13 May 2015 13:21 > To: Spencer Dawkins > Cc: video-codec@ietf.org; The IESG > Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on > charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT) > > I support removing "competitive" to avoid any > misinterpretation. Since we mean "comparable", we should just > say so directly rather than parenthetically. > > Mo > > > > > On May 13, 2015, at 1:38 AM, Spencer Dawkins > > wro= te: > > Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: Yes > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and > reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. > (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-netvc/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I don't know if the cat is too far out of the bag for this to > matter, but > > > "1. Is competitive (in the sense of having comparable > performance) with current video codecs in widespread use." > > has already piqued the interest of our dear friends at > another SDO. Is it possible to pick a less interesting word > than "competitive" here and elsewhere in the charter? > > > _______________________________________________ > video-codec mailing list > video-codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec > > _______________________________________________ > video-codec mailing list > video-codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec > _______________________________________________ video-codec mailing list video-codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec --_000_D178CB4D4D77Bmzanatyciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <4CE2A26A9367E0428352C736F38FD9C8@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Comparable and competitive express the same goal with slightly differe= nt connotations. Comparable sounds more neutral / objective. Neither expres= s =93outperform=94 as Keith suggests. There was indeed BoF discussion aroun= d the desire to =93outperform=94, but no consensus to require this in the charter, hence =93competitive=94.

I prefer =93Has comparable performance=94, just to avoid any misinterp= retation or connotation of =93Is competitive=94. But I don=92t think either= language will really matter all that much. Concerns in other SDOs are unli= kely to be alleviated with any charter language.

Mo

On 5/13/15, 9:31 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

I honestly don't care about this, but how about "havi= ng competitive performance"

-Ekr


On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 6:29 AM, DRAGE, Keith (K= eith) <kei= th.drage@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
I do not believe that we do mean the same.

This got a little discussion in the BOF, but I see liitle point in developi= ng a codec where the only selling point is a claimed royalty free, somethin= g that can never be guaranteed.

Therefore I certainly would like to see the aim of development to be someth= ing that is in some aspect better, and thus competitive, rather than just t= he same, as in comparable. Maybe we can find another word, but I am unhappy= with comparable.

Keith

> -----Original Message-----
> From: video-codec [mailto:video-codec-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
> Sent: 13 May 2015 13:21
> To: Spencer Dawkins
> Cc: video-codec@ietf.org; = The IESG
> Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on
> charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT)
>
> I support removing "competitive" to avoid any
> misinterpretation. Since we mean "comparable", we should jus= t
> say so directly rather than parenthetically.
>
> Mo
>
>
>
>
> On May 13, 2015, at 1:38 AM, Spencer Dawkins
> <spencerdawkins.ie= tf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for
> charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: Yes
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and
> reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines.
> (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-netvc/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
>
> I don't know if the cat is too far out of the bag for this to
> matter, but
>
>
> "1. Is competitive (in the sense of having comparable
> performance) with current video codecs in widespread use."
>
> has already piqued the interest of our dear friends at
> another SDO. Is it possible to pick a less interesting word
> than "competitive" here and elsewhere in the charter?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> video-codec mailing list
> video-codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec
>
> _______________________________________________
> video-codec mailing list
> video-codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec
>
_______________________________________________
video-codec mailing list
video-codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec

 --_000_D178CB4D4D77Bmzanatyciscocom_-- From nobody Wed May 13 08:57:12 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0CD71A8ABF for ; Wed, 13 May 2015 08:57:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RJqg1ZyB--uo for ; Wed, 13 May 2015 08:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f172.google.com (mail-wi0-f172.google.com [209.85.212.172]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2136F1A8A95 for ; Wed, 13 May 2015 08:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wicnf17 with SMTP id nf17so61739315wic.1 for ; Wed, 13 May 2015 08:57:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=lFXR/oDU6V7kU8vyf2g0c8GMHxDEOHogO31Akfn6j2E=; b=L9dEa12RZmnhcZ2qfY1lTjcJiBzMLeQAbVdMt73P8GXRHCZAGCgi6cdHcOhHChQKZ7 9PaqWFS79+7mTb0RStKhkOo4eJTLyjQkUylWe0tEfWOZxtDxPzoZWhNLc8V2S2RoGRHr +rbe4CLYLf2S99SOD5PtUDUbLYtKIor1toq5Uj0uKDHKa4aAYdG5B7RoOKXLyNVwfnOz 81EE3KQZXYEyoFatAx0K7KTZ5T1VgzT0eIDOGWXbSI5kUmvGLvtqnN+pCRzN9cOJIwWI gzBlxuvgg/cePioDL3jQj1JjMSnkEjPC+ad3Pi8gW0K7iArXWL1eTylRODsGbn0sydGO c96w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQn+vPH6C77o7dvjmT8KliAYAwkbZ0xJfi+ABFxb4Wm9utRV1b3GiZ7XpRU+dw5w9seRzkqn X-Received: by 10.194.173.226 with SMTP id bn2mr41688019wjc.148.1431532626855; Wed, 13 May 2015 08:57:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.27.205.87 with HTTP; Wed, 13 May 2015 08:56:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20150513053822.28819.92069.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <62B9FAA5-F616-440A-BFEF-36BA07822889@cisco.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B69714968@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 08:56:26 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013c66a0b5718b0515f8a9fe Archived-At: Cc: "DRAGE, Keith \(Keith\)" , "video-codec@ietf.org" , The IESG Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 15:57:11 -0000 --089e013c66a0b5718b0515f8a9fe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I can live with any of these. Just trying to get to yes. -Ekr On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 7:29 AM, Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) wrote: > Comparable and competitive express the same goal with slightly different > connotations. Comparable sounds more neutral / objective. Neither express > =E2=80=9Coutperform=E2=80=9D as Keith suggests. There was indeed BoF disc= ussion around the > desire to =E2=80=9Coutperform=E2=80=9D, but no consensus to require this = in the charter, > hence =E2=80=9Ccompetitive=E2=80=9D. > > I prefer =E2=80=9CHas comparable performance=E2=80=9D, just to avoid any > misinterpretation or connotation of =E2=80=9CIs competitive=E2=80=9D. But= I don=E2=80=99t think > either language will really matter all that much. Concerns in other SDOs > are unlikely to be alleviated with any charter language. > > Mo > > On 5/13/15, 9:31 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > I honestly don't care about this, but how about "having competitive > performance" > > -Ekr > > > On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 6:29 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) < > keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote: > >> I do not believe that we do mean the same. >> >> This got a little discussion in the BOF, but I see liitle point in >> developing a codec where the only selling point is a claimed royalty fre= e, >> something that can never be guaranteed. >> >> Therefore I certainly would like to see the aim of development to be >> something that is in some aspect better, and thus competitive, rather th= an >> just the same, as in comparable. Maybe we can find another word, but I a= m >> unhappy with comparable. >> >> Keith >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: video-codec [mailto:video-codec-bounces@ietf.org] On >> > Behalf Of Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) >> > Sent: 13 May 2015 13:21 >> > To: Spencer Dawkins >> > Cc: video-codec@ietf.org; The IESG >> > Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on >> > charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT) >> > >> > I support removing "competitive" to avoid any >> > misinterpretation. Since we mean "comparable", we should just >> > say so directly rather than parenthetically. >> > >> > Mo >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On May 13, 2015, at 1:38 AM, Spencer Dawkins >> > wrote: >> > >> > Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for >> > charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: Yes >> > >> > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and >> > reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. >> > (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) >> > >> > >> > >> > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-netvc/ >> > >> > >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > COMMENT: >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > I don't know if the cat is too far out of the bag for this to >> > matter, but >> > >> > >> > "1. Is competitive (in the sense of having comparable >> > performance) with current video codecs in widespread use." >> > >> > has already piqued the interest of our dear friends at >> > another SDO. Is it possible to pick a less interesting word >> > than "competitive" here and elsewhere in the charter? >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > video-codec mailing list >> > video-codec@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > video-codec mailing list >> > video-codec@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> video-codec mailing list >> video-codec@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec >> > > --089e013c66a0b5718b0515f8a9fe Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I can live with any of these. Just trying to get to yes.
-Ekr


On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 7:29 AM, Mo Zanaty = (mzanaty) <mzanaty@cisco.com> wrote:
Comparable and competitive express the same goal with slightly differe= nt connotations. Comparable sounds more neutral / objective. Neither expres= s =E2=80=9Coutperform=E2=80=9D as Keith suggests. There was indeed BoF disc= ussion around the desire to =E2=80=9Coutperform=E2=80=9D, but no consensus to require this in the charter, hence =E2=80=9Ccompetitive=E2=80= =9D.

I prefer =E2=80=9CHas comparable performance=E2=80=9D, just to avoid a= ny misinterpretation or connotation of =E2=80=9CIs competitive=E2=80=9D. Bu= t I don=E2=80=99t think either language will really matter all that much. C= oncerns in other SDOs are unlikely to be alleviated with any charter langua= ge.

Mo

On 5/13/15, 9:31 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

I honestly don't care about this, but how about "= having competitive performance"

-Ekr


On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 6:29 AM, DRAGE, Keith (K= eith) <kei= th.drage@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
I do not believe that we do mean the same.

This got a little discussion in the BOF, but I see liitle point in developi= ng a codec where the only selling point is a claimed royalty free, somethin= g that can never be guaranteed.

Therefore I certainly would like to see the aim of development to be someth= ing that is in some aspect better, and thus competitive, rather than just t= he same, as in comparable. Maybe we can find another word, but I am unhappy= with comparable.

Keith

> -----Original Message-----
> From: video-codec [mailto:video-codec-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
> Sent: 13 May 2015 13:21
> To: Spencer Dawkins
> Cc: video-co= dec@ietf.org; The IESG
> Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on
> charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT)
>
> I support removing "competitive" to avoid any
> misinterpretation. Since we mean "comparable", we should jus= t
> say so directly rather than parenthetically.
>
> Mo
>
>
>
>
> On May 13, 2015, at 1:38 AM, Spencer Dawkins
> <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for
> charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: Yes
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and
> reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines.
> (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-netvc/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
>
> I don't know if the cat is too far out of the bag for this to
> matter, but
>
>
> "1. Is competitive (in the sense of having comparable
> performance) with current video codecs in widespread use."
>
> has already piqued the interest of our dear friends at
> another SDO. Is it possible to pick a less interesting word
> than "competitive" here and elsewhere in the charter?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> video-codec mailing list
> video-codec@= ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec
>
> _______________________________________________
> video-codec mailing list
> video-codec@= ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec
>
_______________________________________________
video-codec mailing list
video-codec@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec

--089e013c66a0b5718b0515f8a9fe-- From nobody Wed May 13 10:50:02 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E2181A87C6; Wed, 13 May 2015 10:49:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZIuFPlS7EDAL; Wed, 13 May 2015 10:49:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x235.google.com (mail-lb0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E69A1A1BE3; Wed, 13 May 2015 10:49:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lbcga7 with SMTP id ga7so35278068lbc.1; Wed, 13 May 2015 10:49:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=qrBvCAXGkQgqLAyRgbgNSI3eq2w7BXhzQ5xc259adK4=; b=GZZbt7OQX/q17J8oOI52qQE7aOqDSSypKg9tZvG/LxrUzEEHd5QkrHRemzo+5qTyKB y4efJiSITgDjrlHyDtsffORz1pemrkdMoHiL8kw1Db4qwjZ/TOTE+Dpr19Ftfk30NWa8 iaOs5xC5k9nPfOzTfUy94wjZt18c+PQQ1vlyWDcHZgMo4xNX9ILLw56+Yikqr5btbRZ1 LwOUxHf5foVeI/hBOhHj+w4qqwWgHkSjhrpjbQ73yzIEMhW+7s2SmG+gIXzYXC93xnQw 50oiSxjMsUnrVDrgcWiDJs1lNqZvIb7DSyzmMxvXLt45CsXl6rM87GSKVH6DBuHFeKk5 P+1A== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.203.162 with SMTP id kr2mr70480lac.68.1431539393483; Wed, 13 May 2015 10:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.152.129.3 with HTTP; Wed, 13 May 2015 10:49:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20150513053822.28819.92069.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <62B9FAA5-F616-440A-BFEF-36BA07822889@cisco.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B69714968@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 12:49:53 -0500 Message-ID: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF To: Eric Rescorla Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1134632607dade0515fa3d44 Archived-At: Cc: "DRAGE, Keith \(Keith\)" , "video-codec@ietf.org" , "Mo Zanaty \(mzanaty\)" , The IESG Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 17:49:58 -0000 --001a1134632607dade0515fa3d44 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Eric, On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > I can live with any of these. > As can I. I can live with no change, but another SDO has already sent us a love note about the charter asking why we hate them because we want to compete with them, quoting the word "competitive". Anything that makes liaison relationships settle down seems helpful. > Just trying to get to yes. > Speaking for me, you've got that. I balloted Yes without holding out for the change :-) Spencer > -Ekr > > > On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 7:29 AM, Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) > wrote: > >> Comparable and competitive express the same goal with slightly >> different connotations. Comparable sounds more neutral / objective. Neit= her >> express =E2=80=9Coutperform=E2=80=9D as Keith suggests. There was indeed= BoF discussion >> around the desire to =E2=80=9Coutperform=E2=80=9D, but no consensus to r= equire this in the >> charter, hence =E2=80=9Ccompetitive=E2=80=9D. >> >> I prefer =E2=80=9CHas comparable performance=E2=80=9D, just to avoid an= y >> misinterpretation or connotation of =E2=80=9CIs competitive=E2=80=9D. Bu= t I don=E2=80=99t think >> either language will really matter all that much. Concerns in other SDOs >> are unlikely to be alleviated with any charter language. >> >> Mo >> >> On 5/13/15, 9:31 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >> I honestly don't care about this, but how about "having competitive >> performance" >> >> -Ekr >> >> >> On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 6:29 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) < >> keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote: >> >>> I do not believe that we do mean the same. >>> >>> This got a little discussion in the BOF, but I see liitle point in >>> developing a codec where the only selling point is a claimed royalty fr= ee, >>> something that can never be guaranteed. >>> >>> Therefore I certainly would like to see the aim of development to be >>> something that is in some aspect better, and thus competitive, rather t= han >>> just the same, as in comparable. Maybe we can find another word, but I = am >>> unhappy with comparable. >>> >>> Keith >>> >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: video-codec [mailto:video-codec-bounces@ietf.org] On >>> > Behalf Of Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) >>> > Sent: 13 May 2015 13:21 >>> > To: Spencer Dawkins >>> > Cc: video-codec@ietf.org; The IESG >>> > Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on >>> > charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT) >>> > >>> > I support removing "competitive" to avoid any >>> > misinterpretation. Since we mean "comparable", we should just >>> > say so directly rather than parenthetically. >>> > >>> > Mo >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On May 13, 2015, at 1:38 AM, Spencer Dawkins >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> > Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for >>> > charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: Yes >>> > >>> > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and >>> > reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. >>> > (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >>> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-netvc/ >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------= - >>> > COMMENT: >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------= - >>> > >>> > I don't know if the cat is too far out of the bag for this to >>> > matter, but >>> > >>> > >>> > "1. Is competitive (in the sense of having comparable >>> > performance) with current video codecs in widespread use." >>> > >>> > has already piqued the interest of our dear friends at >>> > another SDO. Is it possible to pick a less interesting word >>> > than "competitive" here and elsewhere in the charter? >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > video-codec mailing list >>> > video-codec@ietf.org >>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > video-codec mailing list >>> > video-codec@ietf.org >>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> video-codec mailing list >>> video-codec@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec >>> >> >> > --001a1134632607dade0515fa3d44 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Eric,

On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com&= gt; wrote:
I can = live with any of these.

As can I. I = can live with no change, but another SDO has already sent us a love note ab= out the charter asking why we hate them because we want to compete with the= m, quoting the word "competitive".=C2=A0

Anything that makes liaison relationships settle down seems helpful.
=
=C2=A0
Just tryin= g to get to yes.

Speaking for me, you= 've got that. I balloted Yes without holding out for the change :-)

Spencer
=C2=A0
-Ekr


On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 7:29 AM, Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) <mzanaty= @cisco.com> wrote:
Comparable and competitive express the same goal with slightly differe= nt connotations. Comparable sounds more neutral / objective. Neither expres= s =E2=80=9Coutperform=E2=80=9D as Keith suggests. There was indeed BoF disc= ussion around the desire to =E2=80=9Coutperform=E2=80=9D, but no consensus to require this in the charter, hence =E2=80=9Ccompetitive=E2=80= =9D.

I prefer =E2=80=9CHas comparable performance=E2=80=9D, just to avoid a= ny misinterpretation or connotation of =E2=80=9CIs competitive=E2=80=9D. Bu= t I don=E2=80=99t think either language will really matter all that much. C= oncerns in other SDOs are unlikely to be alleviated with any charter langua= ge.

Mo

On 5/13/15, 9:31 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

I honestly don't care about this, but how about "= having competitive performance"

-Ekr


On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 6:29 AM, DRAGE, Keith (K= eith) <kei= th.drage@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
I do not believe that we do mean the same.

This got a little discussion in the BOF, but I see liitle point in developi= ng a codec where the only selling point is a claimed royalty free, somethin= g that can never be guaranteed.

Therefore I certainly would like to see the aim of development to be someth= ing that is in some aspect better, and thus competitive, rather than just t= he same, as in comparable. Maybe we can find another word, but I am unhappy= with comparable.

Keith

> -----Original Message-----
> From: video-codec [mailto:video-codec-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
> Sent: 13 May 2015 13:21
> To: Spencer Dawkins
> Cc: video-co= dec@ietf.org; The IESG
> Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on
> charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT)
>
> I support removing "competitive" to avoid any
> misinterpretation. Since we mean "comparable", we should jus= t
> say so directly rather than parenthetically.
>
> Mo
>
>
>
>
> On May 13, 2015, at 1:38 AM, Spencer Dawkins
> <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for
> charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: Yes
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and
> reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines.
> (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-netvc/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
>
> I don't know if the cat is too far out of the bag for this to
> matter, but
>
>
> "1. Is competitive (in the sense of having comparable
> performance) with current video codecs in widespread use."
>
> has already piqued the interest of our dear friends at
> another SDO. Is it possible to pick a less interesting word
> than "competitive" here and elsewhere in the charter?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> video-codec mailing list
> video-codec@= ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec
>
> _______________________________________________
> video-codec mailing list
> video-codec@= ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec
>
_______________________________________________
video-codec mailing list
video-codec@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec


--001a1134632607dade0515fa3d44-- From nobody Wed May 13 14:09:54 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF0FA1A90F3; Wed, 13 May 2015 14:09:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wmAYWeU_U9us; Wed, 13 May 2015 14:09:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpgre-esg-01.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 309101A90DC; Wed, 13 May 2015 14:09:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.239.2.122]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 83058AD6ABB8A; Wed, 13 May 2015 21:09:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr712wxchhub03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.74]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id t4DL9igD018525 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 13 May 2015 23:09:44 +0200 Received: from FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.7.203]) by FR712WXCHHUB03.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Wed, 13 May 2015 23:09:44 +0200 From: "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" To: "Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" , Eric Rescorla Thread-Topic: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHQjT8M+kfRi8Fw7kWNyDAardN1Jp151AZvgAAQ2gD//+F5AIAAEDIAgACPtAA= Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 21:09:42 +0000 Message-ID: <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B697150B3@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> References: <20150513053822.28819.92069.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <62B9FAA5-F616-440A-BFEF-36BA07822889@cisco.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B69714968@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.41] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B697150B3FR712WXCHMBA11z_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "video-codec@ietf.org" , The IESG Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 21:09:49 -0000 --_000_949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B697150B3FR712WXCHMBA11z_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At least one of the definitions of competitive is that it compares well wit= h whatever it is up against. That is at least the meaning I understood from the word, and its use in the= charter. I would like to retain that meaning. I see little point in progressing othe= rwise. If we do not produce something with at least some advantageous performance = then it will just be yet another codec to be supported in transcoding, conf= erencing applications, etc. regards Keith ________________________________ From: video-codec [mailto:video-codec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mo Zan= aty (mzanaty) Sent: 13 May 2015 15:30 To: Eric Rescorla; DRAGE, Keith (Keith) Cc: video-codec@ietf.org; The IESG Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on charter-ietf-netvc-00-03= : (with COMMENT) Comparable and competitive express the same goal with slightly different co= nnotations. Comparable sounds more neutral / objective. Neither express "ou= tperform" as Keith suggests. There was indeed BoF discussion around the des= ire to "outperform", but no consensus to require this in the charter, hence= "competitive". I prefer "Has comparable performance", just to avoid any misinterpretation = or connotation of "Is competitive". But I don't think either language will = really matter all that much. Concerns in other SDOs are unlikely to be alle= viated with any charter language. Mo On 5/13/15, 9:31 AM, Eric Rescorla > wrot= e: I honestly don't care about this, but how about "having competitive perform= ance" -Ekr On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 6:29 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) > wrote: I do not believe that we do mean the same. This got a little discussion in the BOF, but I see liitle point in developi= ng a codec where the only selling point is a claimed royalty free, somethin= g that can never be guaranteed. Therefore I certainly would like to see the aim of development to be someth= ing that is in some aspect better, and thus competitive, rather than just t= he same, as in comparable. Maybe we can find another word, but I am unhappy= with comparable. Keith > -----Original Message----- > From: video-codec [mailto:video-codec-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) > Sent: 13 May 2015 13:21 > To: Spencer Dawkins > Cc: video-codec@ietf.org; The IESG > Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on > charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT) > > I support removing "competitive" to avoid any > misinterpretation. Since we mean "comparable", we should just > say so directly rather than parenthetically. > > Mo > > > > > On May 13, 2015, at 1:38 AM, Spencer Dawkins > > wro= te: > > Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: Yes > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and > reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. > (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-netvc/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I don't know if the cat is too far out of the bag for this to > matter, but > > > "1. Is competitive (in the sense of having comparable > performance) with current video codecs in widespread use." > > has already piqued the interest of our dear friends at > another SDO. Is it possible to pick a less interesting word > than "competitive" here and elsewhere in the charter? > > > _______________________________________________ > video-codec mailing list > video-codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec > > _______________________________________________ > video-codec mailing list > video-codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec > _______________________________________________ video-codec mailing list video-codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec --_000_949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B697150B3FR712WXCHMBA11z_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
At least one of th= e definitions of competitive is that it compares well with whatever it is u= p against.
&nbs= p;
That is at least t= he meaning I understood from the word, and its use in the charter.
&nbs= p;
I would like to re= tain that meaning. I see little point in progressing otherwise.
&nbs= p;
If we do not produ= ce something with at least some advantageous performance then it will = just be yet another codec to be supported in transcoding, conferencing appl= ications, etc.
&nbs= p;
regards
&nbs= p;
Keith

From: video-codec [mailto:video-cod= ec-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
Sent: 13 May 2015 15:30
To: Eric Rescorla; DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
Cc: video-codec@ietf.org; The IESG
Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on charter-ietf-netv= c-00-03: (with COMMENT)

Comparable and competitive express the same goal with slightly differe= nt connotations. Comparable sounds more neutral / objective. Neither expres= s “outperform” as Keith suggests. There was indeed BoF discussi= on around the desire to “outperform”, but no consensus to require this in the charter, hence “competitive”.=

I prefer “Has comparable performance”, just to avoid any m= isinterpretation or connotation of “Is competitive”. But I don&= #8217;t think either language will really matter all that much. Concerns in= other SDOs are unlikely to be alleviated with any charter language.

Mo

On 5/13/15, 9:31 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

I honestly don't care about this, but how about "havi= ng competitive performance"

-Ekr


On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 6:29 AM, DRAGE, Keith (K= eith) <kei= th.drage@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
I do not believe that we do mean the same.

This got a little discussion in the BOF, but I see liitle point in developi= ng a codec where the only selling point is a claimed royalty free, somethin= g that can never be guaranteed.

Therefore I certainly would like to see the aim of development to be someth= ing that is in some aspect better, and thus competitive, rather than just t= he same, as in comparable. Maybe we can find another word, but I am unhappy= with comparable.

Keith

> -----Original Message-----
> From: video-codec [mailto:video-codec-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
> Sent: 13 May 2015 13:21
> To: Spencer Dawkins
> Cc: video-codec@ietf.org; = The IESG
> Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on
> charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT)
>
> I support removing "competitive" to avoid any
> misinterpretation. Since we mean "comparable", we should jus= t
> say so directly rather than parenthetically.
>
> Mo
>
>
>
>
> On May 13, 2015, at 1:38 AM, Spencer Dawkins
> <spencerdawkins.ie= tf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for
> charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: Yes
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and
> reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines.
> (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-netvc/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
>
> I don't know if the cat is too far out of the bag for this to
> matter, but
>
>
> "1. Is competitive (in the sense of having comparable
> performance) with current video codecs in widespread use."
>
> has already piqued the interest of our dear friends at
> another SDO. Is it possible to pick a less interesting word
> than "competitive" here and elsewhere in the charter?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> video-codec mailing list
> video-codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec
>
> _______________________________________________
> video-codec mailing list
> video-codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec
>
_______________________________________________
video-codec mailing list
video-codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec

--_000_949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B697150B3FR712WXCHMBA11z_-- From nobody Wed May 13 14:46:33 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6C291ACEBE for ; Wed, 13 May 2015 14:46:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=unavailable Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LWUxf0o1ZFEF for ; Wed, 13 May 2015 14:46:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 171301ACEB1 for ; Wed, 13 May 2015 14:46:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61B5520909 for ; Wed, 13 May 2015 17:46:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend1 ([10.202.2.160]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 13 May 2015 17:46:28 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h=cc :content-type:date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=mesmtp; bh=II8ZZ iqmO3+QXMpHUObbMtIg6U8=; b=gnXjqyb2uFL+DOT9McfkUDxuT2A7iwifR3zUl HaCUU2JK9XNg1W5UE0z6JsKg3zOczE/7PiEVqU6jxrVW9cP1MM7Z1zZcv0BlAS00 UIglnJEUhrRzKXpWpjO1gGHPtRMA8rBuE17+Tz+MUbcCSYXJvKCGMuYiaPX/1tZ4 H3+qTQ= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc :x-sasl-enc; s=smtpout; bh=II8ZZiqmO3+QXMpHUObbMtIg6U8=; b=RZAMc tGwPzvTRANtQlSfeuRn433m40gH+d6ELmKaMNLZ0uiO+axYbZMQyV3/kgCt2NRzO e9xg5rQHk4HzbfXTZ/Yyk0St4tkb4gmcECSVk8E6A6iFJhbP3zmbx7K21LhomQ9J BMC8x9bKDhZ8aL8nwQg7dnQDd2d4EITYcBQrVw= X-Sasl-enc: MO8G02E55o1hRdSM5cdKSWD6QSWEoXg1sAr9/QEc9ixL 1431553587 Received: from sjc-alcoop-8817.cisco.com (unknown [128.107.241.178]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 66349C00017; Wed, 13 May 2015 17:46:26 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8F5BA795-7E7F-4025-96F3-82B5D710C411" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 14:46:17 -0700 Message-Id: <72EEE984-6A6A-4D46-B5CF-36319DDC2D03@cooperw.in> References: <20150513053822.28819.92069.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <62B9FAA5-F616-440A-BFEF-36BA07822889@cisco.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B69714968@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: Cc: Eric Rescorla , "DRAGE, Keith \(Keith\)" , "video-codec@ietf.org" , "Mo Zanaty \(mzanaty\)" , IESG Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 21:46:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8F5BA795-7E7F-4025-96F3-82B5D710C411 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 I would say we go with =93competitive (in the sense of having comparable = or better performance)=94 I don=92t think choosing different words in this charter is going to = have much effect on liaison relationships one way or the other. Alissa On May 13, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF = wrote: > Hi, Eric, >=20 > On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > I can live with any of these. >=20 > As can I. I can live with no change, but another SDO has already sent = us a love note about the charter asking why we hate them because we want = to compete with them, quoting the word "competitive".=20 >=20 > Anything that makes liaison relationships settle down seems helpful. > =20 > Just trying to get to yes. >=20 > Speaking for me, you've got that. I balloted Yes without holding out = for the change :-) >=20 > Spencer > =20 > -Ekr >=20 >=20 > On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 7:29 AM, Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) = wrote: > Comparable and competitive express the same goal with slightly = different connotations. Comparable sounds more neutral / objective. = Neither express =93outperform=94 as Keith suggests. There was indeed BoF = discussion around the desire to =93outperform=94, but no consensus to = require this in the charter, hence =93competitive=94. >=20 > I prefer =93Has comparable performance=94, just to avoid any = misinterpretation or connotation of =93Is competitive=94. But I don=92t = think either language will really matter all that much. Concerns in = other SDOs are unlikely to be alleviated with any charter language. >=20 > Mo >=20 > On 5/13/15, 9:31 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 > I honestly don't care about this, but how about "having competitive = performance" >=20 > -Ekr >=20 >=20 > On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 6:29 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) = wrote: > I do not believe that we do mean the same. >=20 > This got a little discussion in the BOF, but I see liitle point in = developing a codec where the only selling point is a claimed royalty = free, something that can never be guaranteed. >=20 > Therefore I certainly would like to see the aim of development to be = something that is in some aspect better, and thus competitive, rather = than just the same, as in comparable. Maybe we can find another word, = but I am unhappy with comparable. >=20 > Keith >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: video-codec [mailto:video-codec-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) > > Sent: 13 May 2015 13:21 > > To: Spencer Dawkins > > Cc: video-codec@ietf.org; The IESG > > Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on > > charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT) > > > > I support removing "competitive" to avoid any > > misinterpretation. Since we mean "comparable", we should just > > say so directly rather than parenthetically. > > > > Mo > > > > > > > > > > On May 13, 2015, at 1:38 AM, Spencer Dawkins > > wrote: > > > > Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for > > charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: Yes > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and > > reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. > > (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-netvc/ > > > > > > > > = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > COMMENT: > > = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > I don't know if the cat is too far out of the bag for this to > > matter, but > > > > > > "1. Is competitive (in the sense of having comparable > > performance) with current video codecs in widespread use." > > > > has already piqued the interest of our dear friends at > > another SDO. Is it possible to pick a less interesting word > > than "competitive" here and elsewhere in the charter? > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > video-codec mailing list > > video-codec@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec > > > > _______________________________________________ > > video-codec mailing list > > video-codec@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec > > > _______________________________________________ > video-codec mailing list > video-codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec >=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_8F5BA795-7E7F-4025-96F3-82B5D710C411 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
I = would say we go with =93competitive (in the sense of having comparable = or better performance)=94

I don=92t think = choosing different words in this charter is going to have much effect on = liaison relationships one way or the = other.

Alissa

On May 13, = 2015, at 10:49 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.co= m> wrote:

Hi, Eric,

On Wed, May 13, = 2015 at 10:56 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>= wrote:
I can = live with any of these.

As can I. = I can live with no change, but another SDO has already sent us a love = note about the charter asking why we hate them because we want to = compete with them, quoting the word = "competitive". 

Anything that makes = liaison relationships settle down seems = helpful.
 
Just trying to get to = yes.

Speaking for me, you've got = that. I balloted Yes without holding out for the change = :-)

Spencer
 
-Ekr


On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 7:29 AM, Mo Zanaty = (mzanaty) <mzanaty@cisco.com> wrote:
Comparable and competitive express the same goal with slightly = different connotations. Comparable sounds more neutral / objective. = Neither express =93outperform=94 as Keith suggests. There was indeed BoF = discussion around the desire to =93outperform=94, but no consensus to require this in the charter, hence =93competitive=94.

I prefer =93Has comparable performance=94, just to avoid any = misinterpretation or connotation of =93Is competitive=94. But I don=92t = think either language will really matter all that much. Concerns in = other SDOs are unlikely to be alleviated with any charter = language.

Mo

On 5/13/15, 9:31 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> = wrote:

I honestly don't care about this, but how about "having = competitive performance"

-Ekr


On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 6:29 AM, DRAGE, Keith = (Keith) <keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com> = wrote:
I do not believe that we do mean the same.

This got a little discussion in the BOF, but I see liitle point in = developing a codec where the only selling point is a claimed royalty = free, something that can never be guaranteed.

Therefore I certainly would like to see the aim of development to be = something that is in some aspect better, and thus competitive, rather = than just the same, as in comparable. Maybe we can find another word, = but I am unhappy with comparable.

Keith

> -----Original Message-----
> From: video-codec [mailto:video-codec-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
> Sent: 13 May 2015 13:21
> To: Spencer Dawkins
> Cc: video-codec@ietf.org; The IESG
> Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on
> charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT)
>
> I support removing "competitive" to avoid any
> misinterpretation. Since we mean "comparable", we should just
> say so directly rather than parenthetically.
>
> Mo
>
>
>
>
> On May 13, 2015, at 1:38 AM, Spencer Dawkins
> <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for
> charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: Yes
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and
> reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines.
> (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found = here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-netvc/
>
>
>
> = ----------------------------------------------------------------------
= > COMMENT:
> = ----------------------------------------------------------------------
= >
> I don't know if the cat is too far out of the bag for this to
> matter, but
>
>
> "1. Is competitive (in the sense of having comparable
> performance) with current video codecs in widespread use."
>
> has already piqued the interest of our dear friends at
> another SDO. Is it possible to pick a less interesting word
> than "competitive" here and elsewhere in the charter?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> video-codec mailing list
> video-codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec >
> _______________________________________________
> video-codec mailing list
> video-codec@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec >
_______________________________________________
video-codec mailing list
video-codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec




= --Apple-Mail=_8F5BA795-7E7F-4025-96F3-82B5D710C411-- From nobody Wed May 13 14:56:31 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C6391B2E9C; Wed, 13 May 2015 14:56:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ldmzCRlECQy5; Wed, 13 May 2015 14:56:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-2.cisco.com (alln-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.142.89]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BFCAB1B2E36; Wed, 13 May 2015 14:56:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=14068; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1431554181; x=1432763781; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=VgOI/T40dY6Hs1A+27puOgnLI9LidmNvwW77T8iq45s=; b=ksAtjpBakU+yT1eXgVItdzsZ52Hb5M+E5UvOFNh+LT88cwS4CUXK4TfB bgYMCr9/6gKkXYsIzZKiCG6wvdPEY0ZMhTbHKFm+ebvzjKXsg90wUPO9C yN0RGg0jTWStObFQuzfy/xrFS9U1cgLijVeQPaOOAH0cE3XVd14Wl60j+ k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0BTBAAcyFNV/5JdJa1cgkVKVF4GxQkJgU4BCYYFAoE+OBQBAQEBAQEBgQqEIAEBAQQBAQFrBAcMBAIBCBEEAQEBJwchBgsUCQgCBAENBYgXAxINxCENhHwBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQETBIs6gk2BVREBTQQHBoQnBYZiiT6CNoQnhHSBVYElg2OKeIZ2I2GBWYE9b4EMOYEBAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.13,422,1427760000"; d="scan'208,217";a="149899704" Received: from rcdn-core-10.cisco.com ([173.37.93.146]) by alln-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 May 2015 21:56:20 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x11.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x11.cisco.com [173.37.183.85]) by rcdn-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t4DLuJtb017847 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 13 May 2015 21:56:19 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([169.254.4.228]) by xhc-rcd-x11.cisco.com ([173.37.183.85]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Wed, 13 May 2015 16:56:19 -0500 From: "Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" To: Alissa Cooper , Spencer Dawkins at IETF Thread-Topic: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHQjZV4menhwZ7pLkOs3KVJz4zMlg== Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 21:56:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20150513053822.28819.92069.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <62B9FAA5-F616-440A-BFEF-36BA07822889@cisco.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B69714968@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <72EEE984-6A6A-4D46-B5CF-36319DDC2D03@cooperw.in> In-Reply-To: <72EEE984-6A6A-4D46-B5CF-36319DDC2D03@cooperw.in> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.9.150325 x-originating-ip: [64.100.32.216] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D1793F554D8E2mzanatyciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Eric Rescorla , "DRAGE, Keith \(Keith\)" , "video-codec@ietf.org" , IESG Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 21:56:23 -0000 --_000_D1793F554D8E2mzanatyciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I can live with this, or even no change. Mo On 5/13/15, 5:46 PM, Alissa Cooper > wrote: I would say we go with =93competitive (in the sense of having comparable or= better performance)=94 I don=92t think choosing different words in this charter is going to have m= uch effect on liaison relationships one way or the other. Alissa On May 13, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF > wrote: Hi, Eric, On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Eric Rescorla > wrote: I can live with any of these. As can I. I can live with no change, but another SDO has already sent us a = love note about the charter asking why we hate them because we want to comp= ete with them, quoting the word "competitive". Anything that makes liaison relationships settle down seems helpful. Just trying to get to yes. Speaking for me, you've got that. I balloted Yes without holding out for th= e change :-) Spencer -Ekr On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 7:29 AM, Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) > wrote: Comparable and competitive express the same goal with slightly different co= nnotations. Comparable sounds more neutral / objective. Neither express =93= outperform=94 as Keith suggests. There was indeed BoF discussion around the= desire to =93outperform=94, but no consensus to require this in the charte= r, hence =93competitive=94. I prefer =93Has comparable performance=94, just to avoid any misinterpretat= ion or connotation of =93Is competitive=94. But I don=92t think either lang= uage will really matter all that much. Concerns in other SDOs are unlikely = to be alleviated with any charter language. Mo On 5/13/15, 9:31 AM, Eric Rescorla > wrot= e: I honestly don't care about this, but how about "having competitive perform= ance" -Ekr On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 6:29 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) > wrote: I do not believe that we do mean the same. This got a little discussion in the BOF, but I see liitle point in developi= ng a codec where the only selling point is a claimed royalty free, somethin= g that can never be guaranteed. Therefore I certainly would like to see the aim of development to be someth= ing that is in some aspect better, and thus competitive, rather than just t= he same, as in comparable. Maybe we can find another word, but I am unhappy= with comparable. Keith > -----Original Message----- > From: video-codec [mailto:video-codec-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) > Sent: 13 May 2015 13:21 > To: Spencer Dawkins > Cc: video-codec@ietf.org; The IESG > Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on > charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT) > > I support removing "competitive" to avoid any > misinterpretation. Since we mean "comparable", we should just > say so directly rather than parenthetically. > > Mo > > > > > On May 13, 2015, at 1:38 AM, Spencer Dawkins > > wro= te: > > Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: Yes > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and > reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. > (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-netvc/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I don't know if the cat is too far out of the bag for this to > matter, but > > > "1. Is competitive (in the sense of having comparable > performance) with current video codecs in widespread use." > > has already piqued the interest of our dear friends at > another SDO. Is it possible to pick a less interesting word > than "competitive" here and elsewhere in the charter? > > > _______________________________________________ > video-codec mailing list > video-codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec > > _______________________________________________ > video-codec mailing list > video-codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec > _______________________________________________ video-codec mailing list video-codec@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec --_000_D1793F554D8E2mzanatyciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I can live with this, or even no change.

Mo

On 5/13/15, 5:46 PM, Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> wrote:

I would say we go with =93competitive (in the sense of having comparab= le or better performance)=94

I don=92t think choosing different words in this charter is going to h= ave much effect on liaison relationships one way or the other.

Alissa

On May 13, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> = wrote:

Hi, Eric,

On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Eric Rescorla = <ekr@rtfm.com><= /span> wrote:
I can live with any of these.

As can I. I can live with no change, but another SDO has already sent = us a love note about the charter asking why we hate them because we want to= compete with them, quoting the word "competitive". 

Anything that makes liaison relationships settle down seems helpful.
 
Just trying to get to yes.

Speaking for me, you've got that. I balloted Yes without holding out f= or the change :-)

Spencer
 
-Ekr


On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 7:29 AM, Mo Zanaty (mzan= aty) <mzanaty@cisco.co= m> wrote:
Comparable and competitive express the same goal with slightly differe= nt connotations. Comparable sounds more neutral / objective. Neither expres= s =93outperform=94 as Keith suggests. There was indeed BoF discussion aroun= d the desire to =93outperform=94, but no consensus to require this in the charter, hence =93competitive=94.

I prefer =93Has comparable performance=94, just to avoid any misinterp= retation or connotation of =93Is competitive=94. But I don=92t think either= language will really matter all that much. Concerns in other SDOs are unli= kely to be alleviated with any charter language.

Mo

On 5/13/15, 9:31 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

I honestly don't care about this, but how about "havi= ng competitive performance"

-Ekr


On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 6:29 AM, DRAGE, Keith (K= eith) <kei= th.drage@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
I do not believe that we do mean the same.

This got a little discussion in the BOF, but I see liitle point in developi= ng a codec where the only selling point is a claimed royalty free, somethin= g that can never be guaranteed.

Therefore I certainly would like to see the aim of development to be someth= ing that is in some aspect better, and thus competitive, rather than just t= he same, as in comparable. Maybe we can find another word, but I am unhappy= with comparable.

Keith

> -----Original Message-----
> From: video-codec [mailto:video-codec-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
> Sent: 13 May 2015 13:21
> To: Spencer Dawkins
> Cc: video-co= dec@ietf.org; The IESG
> Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on
> charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT)
>
> I support removing "competitive" to avoid any
> misinterpretation. Since we mean "comparable", we should jus= t
> say so directly rather than parenthetically.
>
> Mo
>
>
>
>
> On May 13, 2015, at 1:38 AM, Spencer Dawkins
> <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for
> charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: Yes
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and
> reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines.
> (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-netvc/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
>
> I don't know if the cat is too far out of the bag for this to
> matter, but
>
>
> "1. Is competitive (in the sense of having comparable
> performance) with current video codecs in widespread use."
>
> has already piqued the interest of our dear friends at
> another SDO. Is it possible to pick a less interesting word
> than "competitive" here and elsewhere in the charter?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> video-codec mailing list
> video-codec@= ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec
>
> _______________________________________________
> video-codec mailing list
> video-codec@= ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec
>
_______________________________________________
video-codec mailing list
video-codec@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec




 --_000_D1793F554D8E2mzanatyciscocom_-- From nobody Thu May 14 18:36:57 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 477C41A9302 for ; Thu, 14 May 2015 18:36:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fs6fAQJjZi-r for ; Thu, 14 May 2015 18:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x235.google.com (mail-ob0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A78271A8772 for ; Thu, 14 May 2015 18:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obbkp3 with SMTP id kp3so67033289obb.3 for ; Thu, 14 May 2015 18:36:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=Faj1sK6tZJVL+TekhgnFuTYvqa5lpMNeWoH9kYJ4w8k=; b=D+snsDKksjpFQKI8BrxI/dgRC2upZxRIfk4wTtcci3619xccjHLZOFfx2vMQLMVO7i TE9XmXqzjkeVDu1L+T8Bs3lmlOrqxytxH/4jozcFNzzbRTCpDqM/7gO8GNAf1/vKT7AT /XHDnheGaeu/AZ77motfYLrZytkq3gvzCsprlKmT+kzDGFQObevBG186YkxGHpecP1nf Xa5j0ZT4lw6XtitmXtTQi4xOmMuj0P+8648WyVMeDVwwzW4ajzfXoDJFVMpvTVLy/p1J KVu4nUDDpXj7PptwUlUAVCpypoZQVKNZ/vvpLVwCjX+mUhCtL5DMlI6vM1NUz0nlW3qc 3ftA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.145.228 with SMTP id sx4mr6101995oeb.79.1431653811151; Thu, 14 May 2015 18:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.76.100.104 with HTTP; Thu, 14 May 2015 18:36:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 21:36:51 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Jon M. Kelley" To: video-codec@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b5d30dadae8ea051614e0ca Archived-At: Subject: Re: [video-codec] video-codec Digest, Vol 21, Issue 10 X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 01:36:56 -0000 --047d7b5d30dadae8ea051614e0ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "...is to be developed as a putative open source, better than anything available at the time of release..." Jon M. Kelley On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 5:56 PM, wrote: > Send video-codec mailing list submissions to > video-codec@ietf.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > video-codec-request@ietf.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > video-codec-owner@ietf.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of video-codec digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Spencer Dawkins' Yes on charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with > COMMENT) (Alissa Cooper) > 2. Re: Spencer Dawkins' Yes on charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with > COMMENT) (Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)) > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Alissa Cooper > To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF > Cc: Eric Rescorla , "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" < > keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com>, "video-codec@ietf.org" < > video-codec@ietf.org>, "Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" , IESG < > iesg@ietf.org> > Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 14:46:17 -0700 > Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on > charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT) > I would say we go with =E2=80=9Ccompetitive (in the sense of having compa= rable or > better performance)=E2=80=9D > > I don=E2=80=99t think choosing different words in this charter is going t= o have > much effect on liaison relationships one way or the other. > > Alissa > > On May 13, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF < > spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi, Eric, > > On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> I can live with any of these. >> > > As can I. I can live with no change, but another SDO has already sent us = a > love note about the charter asking why we hate them because we want to > compete with them, quoting the word "competitive". > > Anything that makes liaison relationships settle down seems helpful. > > >> Just trying to get to yes. >> > > Speaking for me, you've got that. I balloted Yes without holding out for > the change :-) > > Spencer > > >> -Ekr >> >> >> On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 7:29 AM, Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) >> wrote: >> >>> Comparable and competitive express the same goal with slightly >>> different connotations. Comparable sounds more neutral / objective. Nei= ther >>> express =E2=80=9Coutperform=E2=80=9D as Keith suggests. There was indee= d BoF discussion >>> around the desire to =E2=80=9Coutperform=E2=80=9D, but no consensus to = require this in the >>> charter, hence =E2=80=9Ccompetitive=E2=80=9D. >>> >>> I prefer =E2=80=9CHas comparable performance=E2=80=9D, just to avoid a= ny >>> misinterpretation or connotation of =E2=80=9CIs competitive=E2=80=9D. B= ut I don=E2=80=99t think >>> either language will really matter all that much. Concerns in other SDO= s >>> are unlikely to be alleviated with any charter language. >>> >>> Mo >>> >>> On 5/13/15, 9:31 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>> >>> I honestly don't care about this, but how about "having competitive >>> performance" >>> >>> -Ekr >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 6:29 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) < >>> keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I do not believe that we do mean the same. >>>> >>>> This got a little discussion in the BOF, but I see liitle point in >>>> developing a codec where the only selling point is a claimed royalty f= ree, >>>> something that can never be guaranteed. >>>> >>>> Therefore I certainly would like to see the aim of development to be >>>> something that is in some aspect better, and thus competitive, rather = than >>>> just the same, as in comparable. Maybe we can find another word, but I= am >>>> unhappy with comparable. >>>> >>>> Keith >>>> >>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>> > From: video-codec [mailto:video-codec-bounces@ietf.org] On >>>> > Behalf Of Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) >>>> > Sent: 13 May 2015 13:21 >>>> > To: Spencer Dawkins >>>> > Cc: video-codec@ietf.org; The IESG >>>> > Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on >>>> > charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT) >>>> > >>>> > I support removing "competitive" to avoid any >>>> > misinterpretation. Since we mean "comparable", we should just >>>> > say so directly rather than parenthetically. >>>> > >>>> > Mo >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On May 13, 2015, at 1:38 AM, Spencer Dawkins >>>> > wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for >>>> > charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: Yes >>>> > >>>> > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and >>>> > reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. >>>> > (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >>>> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-netvc/ >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------= -- >>>> > COMMENT: >>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------= -- >>>> > >>>> > I don't know if the cat is too far out of the bag for this to >>>> > matter, but >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > "1. Is competitive (in the sense of having comparable >>>> > performance) with current video codecs in widespread use." >>>> > >>>> > has already piqued the interest of our dear friends at >>>> > another SDO. Is it possible to pick a less interesting word >>>> > than "competitive" here and elsewhere in the charter? >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > video-codec mailing list >>>> > video-codec@ietf.org >>>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > video-codec mailing list >>>> > video-codec@ietf.org >>>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> video-codec mailing list >>>> video-codec@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec >>>> >>> >>> >> > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" > To: Alissa Cooper , Spencer Dawkins at IETF < > spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> > Cc: Eric Rescorla , "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" < > keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com>, "video-codec@ietf.org" < > video-codec@ietf.org>, IESG > Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 21:56:19 +0000 > Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on > charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT) > I can live with this, or even no change. > > Mo > > On 5/13/15, 5:46 PM, Alissa Cooper wrote: > > I would say we go with =E2=80=9Ccompetitive (in the sense of having com= parable > or better performance)=E2=80=9D > > I don=E2=80=99t think choosing different words in this charter is going = to have > much effect on liaison relationships one way or the other. > > Alissa > > On May 13, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF < > spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi, Eric, > > On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> I can live with any of these. >> > > As can I. I can live with no change, but another SDO has already sent us > a love note about the charter asking why we hate them because we want to > compete with them, quoting the word "competitive". > > Anything that makes liaison relationships settle down seems helpful. > > >> Just trying to get to yes. >> > > Speaking for me, you've got that. I balloted Yes without holding out for > the change :-) > > Spencer > > >> -Ekr >> >> >> On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 7:29 AM, Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) >> wrote: >> >>> Comparable and competitive express the same goal with slightly >>> different connotations. Comparable sounds more neutral / objective. Nei= ther >>> express =E2=80=9Coutperform=E2=80=9D as Keith suggests. There was indee= d BoF discussion >>> around the desire to =E2=80=9Coutperform=E2=80=9D, but no consensus to = require this in the >>> charter, hence =E2=80=9Ccompetitive=E2=80=9D. >>> >>> I prefer =E2=80=9CHas comparable performance=E2=80=9D, just to avoid a= ny >>> misinterpretation or connotation of =E2=80=9CIs competitive=E2=80=9D. B= ut I don=E2=80=99t think >>> either language will really matter all that much. Concerns in other SDO= s >>> are unlikely to be alleviated with any charter language. >>> >>> Mo >>> >>> On 5/13/15, 9:31 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>> >>> I honestly don't care about this, but how about "having competitive >>> performance" >>> >>> -Ekr >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 6:29 AM, DRAGE, Keith (Keith) < >>> keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I do not believe that we do mean the same. >>>> >>>> This got a little discussion in the BOF, but I see liitle point in >>>> developing a codec where the only selling point is a claimed royalty f= ree, >>>> something that can never be guaranteed. >>>> >>>> Therefore I certainly would like to see the aim of development to be >>>> something that is in some aspect better, and thus competitive, rather = than >>>> just the same, as in comparable. Maybe we can find another word, but I= am >>>> unhappy with comparable. >>>> >>>> Keith >>>> >>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>> > From: video-codec [mailto:video-codec-bounces@ietf.org] On >>>> > Behalf Of Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) >>>> > Sent: 13 May 2015 13:21 >>>> > To: Spencer Dawkins >>>> > Cc: video-codec@ietf.org; The IESG >>>> > Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on >>>> > charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT) >>>> > >>>> > I support removing "competitive" to avoid any >>>> > misinterpretation. Since we mean "comparable", we should just >>>> > say so directly rather than parenthetically. >>>> > >>>> > Mo >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On May 13, 2015, at 1:38 AM, Spencer Dawkins >>>> > wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for >>>> > charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: Yes >>>> > >>>> > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and >>>> > reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. >>>> > (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >>>> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-netvc/ >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------= -- >>>> > COMMENT: >>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------= -- >>>> > >>>> > I don't know if the cat is too far out of the bag for this to >>>> > matter, but >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > "1. Is competitive (in the sense of having comparable >>>> > performance) with current video codecs in widespread use." >>>> > >>>> > has already piqued the interest of our dear friends at >>>> > another SDO. Is it possible to pick a less interesting word >>>> > than "competitive" here and elsewhere in the charter? >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > video-codec mailing list >>>> > video-codec@ietf.org >>>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > video-codec mailing list >>>> > video-codec@ietf.org >>>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> video-codec mailing list >>>> video-codec@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec >>>> >>> >>> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > video-codec mailing list > video-codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec > > --047d7b5d30dadae8ea051614e0ca Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


"...is to be developed as a putative open source, better tha= n anything available at the time of release..."

Jon M. Kelley
=

On Wed, May 13, 2= 015 at 5:56 PM, <video-codec-request@ietf.org> w= rote:
Send video-codec mailing list submi= ssions to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 video-c= odec@ietf.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 video-codec-request@ietf.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 v= ideo-codec-owner@ietf.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of video-codec digest..."

Today's Topics:

=C2=A0 =C2=A01. Re: Spencer Dawkins' Yes on charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (= with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 COMMENT) (Alissa Cooper)
=C2=A0 =C2=A02. Re: Spencer Dawkins' Yes on charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (= with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 COMMENT) (Mo Zanaty (mzanaty))


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:=C2=A0Alissa Cooper= <alissa@cooperw.in>
To:= =C2=A0Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc:=C2=A0Eric Rescorla <= ;ekr@rtfm.com>, "DRAGE, Keith (= Keith)" <keith.dr= age@alcatel-lucent.com>, "video-codec@ietf.org" <video-codec@ietf.org>, "Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" <mzanaty@cisco.com>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Date:=C2=A0Wed, 13 May 2= 015 14:46:17 -0700
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' = Yes on charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT)
I would say we go with =E2=80=9Ccompetitive (in the sense = of having comparable or better performance)=E2=80=9D

I don=E2=80=99t think choosing different words in this charter is going = to have much effect on liaison relationships one way or the other.

Alissa

On May 13, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Sp= encer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi, Eric,

On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Eric = Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
=
I can live with any of these.

=
As can I. I can live with no change, but another SDO has already= sent us a love note about the charter asking why we hate them because we w= ant to compete with them, quoting the word "competitive".=C2=A0

Anything that makes liaison relationships settle do= wn seems helpful.
=C2=A0
Just trying to get to yes.

Speaking for me, you've got that. I balloted Yes without holding out= for the change :-)

Spencer
=C2=A0
=
-Ekr

On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 7:29 AM, Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) <mzanaty@cisco.= com> wrote:
Comparable and competitive express the same goal with slightly differe= nt connotations. Comparable sounds more neutral / objective. Neither expres= s =E2=80=9Coutperform=E2=80=9D as Keith suggests. There was indeed BoF disc= ussion around the desire to =E2=80=9Coutperform=E2=80=9D, but no consensus to require this in the charter, hence =E2=80=9Ccompetitive=E2=80= =9D.

I prefer =E2=80=9CHas comparable performance=E2=80=9D, just to avoid a= ny misinterpretation or connotation of =E2=80=9CIs competitive=E2=80=9D. Bu= t I don=E2=80=99t think either language will really matter all that much. C= oncerns in other SDOs are unlikely to be alleviated with any charter langua= ge.

Mo

On 5/13/15, 9:31 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

I honestly don't care about this, but how about "= having competitive performance"

-Ekr


On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 6:29 AM, DRAGE, Keith (K= eith) <kei= th.drage@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
I do not believe that we do mean the same.

This got a little discussion in the BOF, but I see liitle point in developi= ng a codec where the only selling point is a claimed royalty free, somethin= g that can never be guaranteed.

Therefore I certainly would like to see the aim of development to be someth= ing that is in some aspect better, and thus competitive, rather than just t= he same, as in comparable. Maybe we can find another word, but I am unhappy= with comparable.

Keith

> -----Original Message-----
> From: video-codec [mailto:video-codec-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
> Sent: 13 May 2015 13:21
> To: Spencer Dawkins
> Cc: video-co= dec@ietf.org; The IESG
> Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on
> charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT)
>
> I support removing "competitive" to avoid any
> misinterpretation. Since we mean "comparable", we should jus= t
> say so directly rather than parenthetically.
>
> Mo
>
>
>
>
> On May 13, 2015, at 1:38 AM, Spencer Dawkins
> <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for
> charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: Yes
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and
> reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines.
> (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-netvc/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
>
> I don't know if the cat is too far out of the bag for this to
> matter, but
>
>
> "1. Is competitive (in the sense of having comparable
> performance) with current video codecs in widespread use."
>
> has already piqued the interest of our dear friends at
> another SDO. Is it possible to pick a less interesting word
> than "competitive" here and elsewhere in the charter?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> video-codec mailing list
> video-codec@= ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec
>
> _______________________________________________
> video-codec mailing list
> video-codec@= ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec
>
_______________________________________________
video-codec mailing list
video-codec@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec





---------- Forwarded message ---------= -
From:=C2=A0"Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" <mzanaty@cisco.com>
To:=C2=A0Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>, Spencer Dawkins = at IETF <spencerdawkins= .ietf@gmail.com>
Cc:=C2=A0Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" <keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com= >, "video-codec@ietf.or= g" <video-codec@ietf.or= g>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org><= br>Date:=C2=A0Wed, 13 May 2015 21:56:19 +0000
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [video-c= odec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT)<= br>
I can live with this, or even no change.

Mo

On 5/13/15, 5:46 PM, Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> wrote:

I would say we go with =E2=80=9Ccompetitive (in the sense of having co= mparable or better performance)=E2=80=9D

I don=E2=80=99t think choosing different words in this charter is goin= g to have much effect on liaison relationships one way or the other.

Alissa

On May 13, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@= gmail.com> wrote:

Hi, Eric,

On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Eric Rescorla = <ekr@rtfm.com><= /span> wrote:
I can live with any of these.

As can I. I can live with no change, but another SDO has already sent = us a love note about the charter asking why we hate them because we want to= compete with them, quoting the word "competitive".=C2=A0

Anything that makes liaison relationships settle down seems helpful.
=C2=A0
Just trying to get to yes.

Speaking for me, you've got that. I balloted Yes without holding o= ut for the change :-)

Spencer
=C2=A0
-Ekr


On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 7:29 AM, Mo Zanaty (mzan= aty) <mzanaty@cisco.co= m> wrote:
Comparable and competitive express the same goal with slightly differe= nt connotations. Comparable sounds more neutral / objective. Neither expres= s =E2=80=9Coutperform=E2=80=9D as Keith suggests. There was indeed BoF disc= ussion around the desire to =E2=80=9Coutperform=E2=80=9D, but no consensus to require this in the charter, hence =E2=80=9Ccompetitive=E2=80= =9D.

I prefer =E2=80=9CHas comparable performance=E2=80=9D, just to avoid a= ny misinterpretation or connotation of =E2=80=9CIs competitive=E2=80=9D. Bu= t I don=E2=80=99t think either language will really matter all that much. C= oncerns in other SDOs are unlikely to be alleviated with any charter langua= ge.

Mo

On 5/13/15, 9:31 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

I honestly don't care about this, but how about "= having competitive performance"

-Ekr


On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 6:29 AM, DRAGE, Keith (K= eith) <kei= th.drage@alcatel-lucent.com> wrote:
I do not believe that we do mean the same.

This got a little discussion in the BOF, but I see liitle point in developi= ng a codec where the only selling point is a claimed royalty free, somethin= g that can never be guaranteed.

Therefore I certainly would like to see the aim of development to be someth= ing that is in some aspect better, and thus competitive, rather than just t= he same, as in comparable. Maybe we can find another word, but I am unhappy= with comparable.

Keith

> -----Original Message-----
> From: video-codec [mailto:video-codec-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)
> Sent: 13 May 2015 13:21
> To: Spencer Dawkins
> Cc: video-co= dec@ietf.org; The IESG
> Subject: Re: [video-codec] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on
> charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: (with COMMENT)
>
> I support removing "competitive" to avoid any
> misinterpretation. Since we mean "comparable", we should jus= t
> say so directly rather than parenthetically.
>
> Mo
>
>
>
>
> On May 13, 2015, at 1:38 AM, Spencer Dawkins
> <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for
> charter-ietf-netvc-00-03: Yes
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and
> reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines.
> (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-netvc/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
>
> I don't know if the cat is too far out of the bag for this to
> matter, but
>
>
> "1. Is competitive (in the sense of having comparable
> performance) with current video codecs in widespread use."
>
> has already piqued the interest of our dear friends at
> another SDO. Is it possible to pick a less interesting word
> than "competitive" here and elsewhere in the charter?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> video-codec mailing list
> video-codec@= ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec
>
> _______________________________________________
> video-codec mailing list
> video-codec@= ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec
>
_______________________________________________
video-codec mailing list
video-codec@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec

_______________________________________________
video-codec mailing list
video-codec@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec


--047d7b5d30dadae8ea051614e0ca-- From nobody Mon May 18 12:05:42 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F5931B2A09 for ; Mon, 18 May 2015 11:39:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dX6ozoKalxfF for ; Mon, 18 May 2015 11:39:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 654C31B29FE for ; Mon, 18 May 2015 11:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2752920F81 for ; Mon, 18 May 2015 14:39:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend1 ([10.202.2.160]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 18 May 2015 14:39:50 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h=cc :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:message-id :mime-version:subject:to:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=mesmtp; bh=N6L RXYaUaxO8gFgMwC5gce2UX7A=; b=VDPux4MigoBsZSoIbeiccm/18ni4PYaseCF AuNzwy6qgO/wW3HlvvOw7UfcqM4pEfegEnU1Iw5KoYWXFFOR6SfgrLyIKdzefKqk MlN9upEHZcoxY3zuFpHqJH1grxt8M2PkmU4lC+gYZw6BAre27oRc6AFkmsYpWIb0 VUYWfo+s= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:to:x-sasl-enc :x-sasl-enc; s=smtpout; bh=N6LRXYaUaxO8gFgMwC5gce2UX7A=; b=DfCYu jOzPlvgpmU045XHAcKFiDOqMsj36wG+A32hseU0PUi833xBb7KIP46zhM7HhwD/O Coh5K3RiK2XBrZDQt2jOKrO8qQu38RlXOrTzgTQSZGHQAYQDL2ER3HlH3h7VQwR5 Ur3EFN1z/JJTICzhfit0FRsSEVaYuzyIXeMegY= X-Sasl-enc: fiE6CPr3AconDGb1EOyZi0HxyhLNsI92cjRKarLaEsar 1431974388 Received: from [10.24.141.217] (unknown [128.107.241.179]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 5829EC00011; Mon, 18 May 2015 14:39:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Alissa Cooper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 11:40:01 -0700 Message-Id: <28E9E487-01DF-40EC-8B19-1617CF876677@cooperw.in> To: statements@ietf.org, yushi.naito@ties.itu.int, garysull@microsoft.com, jill.boyce@intel.com, twiegand@ieee.org, rosa.angelesleondev@itu.int Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 18 May 2015 12:05:41 -0700 Cc: Roni Even , video-codec@ietf.org, IESG , mknappe@juniper.net Subject: [video-codec] Response to LS on call for comments on an IETF WG on Internet Video Codec (netvc) X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 18:39:56 -0000 Dear ITU-T SG 16, We are writing in response to the liaison statement received from ITU-T = SG 16 requesting clarification about the goals the proposed Internet = Video Codec (NETVC) working group. The NETVC charter uses the word = =93competitive=94 in the sense of being =93comparable" and "commercially = interesting." That is, the goal of the working group is to produce a = video codec that will need to have comparable quality and efficiency as = well as have IPR licensing terms make it that commercially interesting = to deploy widely at the time when the NETVC work is finalized. As the liaison statement notes, there are many concurrent ongoing = efforts to develop video codecs, and the NETVC work would merely be one = additional such effort. We do not view the proposed NETVC work as = harmful for interoperability, but rather as helpful, considering the = fact that at present the licensing environment creates barriers to full = interoperability in many cases. One key distinction of the NETVC work is = a differentiation between 'licensing terms that would enable broad use,' = which is a subjective distinction, and 'royalty-free licensing terms,' = which is a factual one. The combination of this goal with the goal of = achieving quality on par with modern, state-of-the-art codecs is what = makes NETVC distinctive. Regards, Alissa Cooper, IETF RAI area director=20 on behalf of the IESG= From nobody Mon May 18 12:16:46 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: video-codec@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E7B81B2A8F; Mon, 18 May 2015 12:16:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9cHNflx18l3U; Mon, 18 May 2015 12:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B83391B2A99; Mon, 18 May 2015 12:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.0.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20150518191639.2325.5369.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 12:16:39 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: netvc WG Subject: [video-codec] WG Action: Formed Internet Video Codec (netvc) X-BeenThere: video-codec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Video codec BoF discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 19:16:45 -0000 A new IETF working group has been formed in the Real-time Applications and Infrastructure Area. For additional information please contact the Area Directors or the WG Chairs. Internet Video Codec (netvc) ------------------------------------------------ Current Status: Proposed WG Chairs: Adam Roach Mo Zanaty Assigned Area Director: Alissa Cooper Mailing list Address: video-codec@ietf.org To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/video-codec Archive: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/video-codec/ Charter: Objectives This WG is chartered to produce a high-quality video codec that meets the following conditions: 1. Is competitive (in the sense of having comparable or better performance) with current video codecs in widespread use. 2. Is optimized for use in interactive web applications. 3. Is viewed as having IPR licensing terms that allow it to be widely implemented and deployed. To elaborate, this video codec will need to be commercially interesting to implement by being competitive with the video codecs in widespread use at the time it is finalized. This video codec will need to be optimized for the real-world conditions of the public, best-effort Internet. It should include, but may not be limited to, the ability to support fast and flexible congestion control and rate adaptation, the ability to quickly join broadcast streams and the ability to be optimized for captures of content typically shared in interactive communications. The objective is to produce a video codec that can be implemented, distributed, and deployed by open source and closed source software as well as implemented in specialized hardware. The working group shall heed the preference stated in BCP 79: "In general, IETF working groups prefer technologies with no known IPR claims or, for technologies with claims against them, an offer of royalty-free licensing." In keeping with this BCP, the WG will prefer algorithms or tools where there are verifiable reasons to believe they are available on an royalty-free (RF) basis. In developing the codec specification, the WG may consider information concerning old prior art or the results of research indicating royalty-free availability of particular techniques. Note that the preference stated in BCP 79 cannot guarantee that the working group will produce an IPR unencumbered codec. Process The core technical considerations for such a codec include, but are not necessarily limited to, the following: 1. High compression efficiency that is competitive with existing popular video codecs. 2. Reasonable computational complexity that permits real-time operation on existing, popular hardware, including mobile devices, and efficient implementation in new hardware designs. 3. Use in interactive real-time applications, such as point-to-point video calls, multi-party video conferencing, telepresence, teleoperation, and in-game video chat. 4. Resilient in the real-world transport conditions of the Internet, such as the flexibility to rapidly respond to changing bandwidth availability and loss rates, etc. 5. Integratable with common Internet applications and Web APIs (e.g., the HTML5