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From: "Ben Andrews (beandrew)" <beandrew@cisco.com>
To: "websec@ietf.org" <websec@ietf.org>
CC: "Darren McKinnon (darmckin)" <darmckin@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: Question regarding RFC 6797
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Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 23:47:42 +0000
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Subject: [websec] Question regarding RFC 6797
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To whom it may concern,

I'm not sure if this is the best way to get this answer, but I'm looking fo=
r some clarification as to what is the correct behavior for HSTS when you h=
ave a web service on ServerA that is then proxied by ServerB, and both host=
s have HSTS enabled. This question was spurred by a customer who open up a =
case stating that SSLLabs was reporting that their site was reporting our H=
STS implementation was invalid because it had more than one HSTS header.

- The customer (and SSLLabs) reasoning comes from Section 7.1 where it stat=
es that "If an STS header field is included, the HSTS Host MUST include onl=
y one such header field."
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6797#section-7.1
* It's definitely clear that an individual HSTS Host should never add two H=
STS headers to the packet.
* What isn't clear to me is what happens when you have two HSTS hosts invol=
ved in the connection especially since that same section specifies the foll=
owing which implies that any HSTS should add an HSTS header if it is respon=
ding to a secure HTTP request.
"When replying to an HTTP request that was conveyed over a secure transport=
, an HSTS Host SHOULD include in its response message an STS header field t=
hat MUST satisfy the grammar specified above in Section 6.1".

- However, when you look at both Section 8.1 and Appendix A it's defining s=
pecific behaviors for when there are more than one HSTS host/header which i=
nsinuates that having more than one header is not actually invalid.
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6797#section-8.1
"If a UA receives more than one STS header field in an HTTP response messag=
e over secure transport, then the UA MUST process only the first such heade=
r field."
* This statement especially specifically defines the UA's behavior when it =
receives more than one HSTS header is received. Was this intended simply to=
 avoid errors, or was the behavior described specifically to support situat=
ions when you might have more than one HSTS header?
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6797#appendix-A
"An HSTS Host may update UA notions of HSTS Policy via new HSTS header fiel=
d parameter values.  We chose to have UAs honor the "freshest" information =
received from a server because there is the chance of a web site sending ou=
t an erroneous HSTS Policy, such as a multi-year max-age value, and/or an i=
ncorrect includeSubDomains directive."

For example, if you have 2x HSTS Hosts involved in a connection, once sourc=
e HTTP server (ServerA) on the corporate network and one proxy server (Serv=
erB) for external users to reach the HTTP server.
What would be the correct behavior when ServerB receives an HTTPS packet fr=
om ServerA with an existing HSTS header that it is supposed to proxy to the=
 UA:
A) ServerB should include its own HSTS header as the second header since it=
 was the second host to add the HSTS header to the HTTP packet.
B) ServerB should include its own HSTS header as the first header since it'=
s the "freshest" information.
C) ServerB should update the existing HSTS header field with any updated HS=
TS header parameters/directives.
D) ServerB should include its own HSTS header overwriting ServerA's HSTS he=
ader completely
E) ServerB should forward ServerA's HSTS header without modifying the HSTS =
header in any way.

This question regarding the behavior of HSTS in non-transparent proxy situa=
tions also brings up the question of what happens when that proxy server's =
purpose is to transform an external routable domain to an internal only dom=
ain. Assuming an error-free secure transport, would the UA add the domain i=
t used to reach the proxy or if it's aware of the internal domain should it=
 add the internal domain instead since that was the original source of the =
content? This specifically would be an extremely fringe situation that woul=
dn't apply to most use cases. Not to mention it likely would fall outside o=
f the scope of this RFC especially after reading the rationale within Secti=
on 14.3 and Appendix A, but it definitely would be a situation where more g=
uidance on the expected behavior with HSTS in proxy situations could be use=
ful.

Please let me know if you have any further comments, questions, issues, or =
concerns.

Kind regards,

Ben Andrews
Cisco TAC
Business Hours: 09:30-17:30 EST M - F
Tel: (919)574-6712
Email: beandrew@cisco.com<mailto:beandrew@cisco.com>

Direct Manager: Chris Myers
Phone: (919) 574-5319
Email: chrimyer@cisco.com<mailto:chrimyer@cisco.com>

CIN contact numbers are:
North America +1 800 553 2447
Asia-Pacific +61 2 8448 7107
Australia +1 800 805 227
Europe +32 2 704 5555
UK +44 800 960 547
Case uploader: https://cway.cisco.com/csc/


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To whom it may concern,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#8217;m not sure if this is the best way to get th=
is answer, but I&#8217;m looking for some clarification as to what is the c=
orrect behavior for HSTS when you have a web service on ServerA that is the=
n proxied by ServerB, and both hosts have HSTS
 enabled. This question was spurred by a customer who open up a case statin=
g that SSLLabs was reporting that their site was reporting our HSTS impleme=
ntation was invalid because it had more than one HSTS header.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- The customer (and SSLLabs) reasoning comes from Se=
ction 7.1 where it states that &#8220;If an STS header field is included, t=
he HSTS Host MUST include only one such header field.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6797#secti=
on-7.1">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6797#section-7.1</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* It&#8217;s definitely clear that an individual HST=
S Host should never add two HSTS headers to the packet.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* What isn&#8217;t clear to me is what happens when =
you have two HSTS hosts involved in the connection especially since that sa=
me section specifies the following which implies that any HSTS should add a=
n HSTS header if it is responding to a secure
 HTTP request.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;When replying to an HTTP request that was con=
veyed over a secure transport, an HSTS Host SHOULD include in its response =
message an STS header field that MUST satisfy the grammar specified above i=
n Section 6.1&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- However, when you look at both Section 8.1 and App=
endix A it&#8217;s defining specific behaviors for when there are more than=
 one HSTS host/header which insinuates that having more than one header is =
not actually invalid.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6797#secti=
on-8.1">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6797#section-8.1</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;If a UA receives more than one STS header fie=
ld in an HTTP response message over secure transport, then the UA MUST proc=
ess only the first such header field.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* This statement especially specifically defines the=
 UA&#8217;s behavior when it receives more than one HSTS header is received=
. Was this intended simply to avoid errors, or was the behavior described s=
pecifically to support situations when you
 might have more than one HSTS header?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6797#appen=
dix-A">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6797#appendix-A</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;An HSTS Host may update UA notions of HSTS Po=
licy via new HSTS header field parameter values.&nbsp; We chose to have UAs=
 honor the &quot;freshest&quot; information received from a server because =
there is the chance of a web site sending out an erroneous
 HSTS Policy, such as a multi-year max-age value, and/or an incorrect inclu=
deSubDomains directive.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For example, if you have 2x HSTS Hosts involved in a=
 connection, once source HTTP server (ServerA) on the corporate network and=
 one proxy server (ServerB) for external users to reach the HTTP server.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">What would be the correct behavior when ServerB rece=
ives an HTTPS packet from ServerA with an existing HSTS header that it is s=
upposed to proxy to the UA:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A) ServerB should include its own HSTS header as the=
 second header since it was the second host to add the HSTS header to the H=
TTP packet.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">B) ServerB should include its own HSTS header as the=
 first header since it&#8217;s the &#8220;freshest&#8221; information.<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">C) ServerB should update the existing HSTS header fi=
eld with any updated HSTS header parameters/directives.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">D) ServerB should include its own HSTS header overwr=
iting ServerA&#8217;s HSTS header completely<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">E) ServerB should forward ServerA&#8217;s HSTS heade=
r without modifying the HSTS header in any way.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This question regarding the behavior of HSTS in non-=
transparent proxy situations also brings up the question of what happens wh=
en that proxy server&#8217;s purpose is to transform an external routable d=
omain to an internal only domain. Assuming
 an error-free secure transport, would the UA add the domain it used to rea=
ch the proxy or if it&#8217;s aware of the internal domain should it add th=
e internal domain instead since that was the original source of the content=
? This specifically would be an extremely
 fringe situation that wouldn&#8217;t apply to most use cases. Not to menti=
on it likely would fall outside of the scope of this RFC especially after r=
eading the rationale within Section 14.3 and Appendix A, but it definitely =
would be a situation where more guidance
 on the expected behavior with HSTS in proxy situations could be useful. <o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Please let me know if you have any further comments,=
 questions, issues, or concerns.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Kind regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Ben Andrews<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Cisco TAC<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Business Hours: 09:30-17:30 EST M - F<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Tel: (919)574-6712<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Email: beandrew@cisco.com&lt;mailto:beandrew@cisco.com&gt;=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Direct Manager: Chris Myers<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Phone: (919) 574-5319<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Email: chrimyer@cisco.com&lt;mailto:chrimyer@cisco.com&gt;=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">CIN contact numbers are:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">North America &#43;1 800 553 2447<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Asia-Pacific &#43;61 2 8448 7107<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Australia &#43;1 800 805 227<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Europe &#43;32 2 704 5555<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">UK &#43;44 800 960 547<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Case uploader: https://cway.cisco.com/csc/<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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From nobody Mon Nov 26 07:52:13 2018
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From: "Mehner, Carl" <Carl.Mehner@usaa.com>
To: "Ben Andrews (beandrew)" <beandrew@cisco.com>, "websec@ietf.org" <websec@ietf.org>
CC: "Darren McKinnon (darmckin)" <darmckin@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: Question regarding RFC 6797
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Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 15:51:59 +0000
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Subject: Re: [websec] Question regarding RFC 6797
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